The Viall Files - E48 Attachment Styles with Relationship Coach Silvy Khoucasian

Episode Date: October 2, 2019

Today we are joined by popular relationship coach Silvy Khocasian who teaches us all about Attachment Styles. We learn about where they originate, Nick reveals his own attachment style, and we talk about how to know whether someone is compatible with you.  Are you secure, avoidant, anxious, or fearful? Be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode!  THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:  BEST FIENDS: https://download.bestfiends.com NOOM: https://www.noom.com/viall PROACTIV: https://www.proactiv.com/NICK SHIPSTATION https://www.shipstation.com/welcome-podcast-listener/ CODE: VIALL See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of Vile Files. What's wrong? This is funny. I'm feeling saucy. We have a great episode. Really excited about this one. This is all Rochelle, by the way. What do you mean? You set this up.

Oh, thank you. It was really great. Sylvie Koukassian. Yes. She's a relationship coach. Yes. And a relationship coach who specializes in something I didn't even know was a thing, but it makes total sense.

And that is attachment styles. Yeah. And how we, like, I don't know how you would describe it, but like, you know, our experiences in our childhood and things that we get raised by our parents and our experiences in life with our partners and how people respond to us and teach us, we then react to that and have different styles of attachment

and how we're attached to people. Very fascinating. Yeah. And how it affects our relationships. And we dive a lot into that. And Sylvie's very helpful and very enlightened in the topic. And it's a really fun, interesting conversation. And she just has a really cool Instagram.

Instagram is becoming a neat way for therapists to help people understand how to set boundaries and you know yeah well like i said uh sylvie is amazing you're going to absolutely enjoy her i really uh i i think this were you happy with it i was so into it the whole time and i her voice is so calming and beautiful and it was just yeah i thought it was great. If you guys people enjoy it, well, I think we could even have her back. I think there's a lot more information

that she could share with us. We joke, but we like to talk a lot about relationships and we like to think we know a lot, but clearly there's so much more to learn out there and it's great to have someone who's studied this and is making a career out of it. And so Sylvie was very fun to listen to. I hope you guys really enjoy it.

And so coming up next. Sylvie. Sylvie. Hi, Sylvie. Thanks for coming. Hello. I'm excited. Really appreciate you coming in.

As we mentioned to our listeners, we're very excited to have you. We talk a lot about relationships on our show. And so we find it fitting from time to time to actually bring on people who actually know what they're talking about, as opposed to us who we just kind of follow our gut and say things. Sylvie, as we mentioned in our intro, was recommended to us by one of our listeners. And so we took a gander at her Instagram and in her platform. And she has some really interesting and helpful things that we think are cool. are cool. And one thing you seem to specialize in is relationship attachments, as you would describe it. And so I wanted to get into that. But before we do, we'd love to learn a little

bit more about you and how you even got into becoming someone who pursued actually being actual relationship coach and studied that and really got into it. And I was just really kind of curious about that. Big question. I don't know where direction to take this question. Right. But I think that the path that really led me to this work is my, my family immigrated from Syria and Saudi Arabia when I was four. Interesting. And my parents left their entire family system behind.

So there was just a lot of challenges that come innately with doing something that is so incredibly hard. And being a really sensitive child, I was always really drawn to wanting to do more of that introspection. And I didn't really drawn to wanting to do more of that introspection. And, um, I didn't really know how to do that. It wasn't really something culturally in Armenian. It wasn't something that was really, it didn't exist in the way that I needed it. Well, that was one thing when I, we, I met you briefly before we started recording is, I mean, I don't know much about those cultures, but the little bit, at least I know whether true or not, like from Saudi Arabia or Syria, in terms of culturally, relationship dynamics seem to be at least very different than the ones we have here in America, right or wrong, in terms of how men and women communicate.

Was that kind of a big role in how it played in your fascination about just relationship dynamics in general? Definitely. And I think just being able to identify so much with my Middle Eastern background, but also my American background, it's almost like I have two parts in me. And they're constantly, I mean, it's great because it gives me perspective. It's like, no, this isn't the only way that you can do relationships. But at the same time, it's like I have these battles inside of me, which has caused a lot of confusion. So that, that also played a big role in me wanting to really figure out what is the way, how do I really want to be in relationships? How can I pull a little bit from my Middle Eastern

culture, the things that I really love, but how can I let go of some of the things that don't really serve me? And then how can I pull from some of the things from my American culture that I love and how can I, you know, let go of the things that don't serve me? So that has taken many, many years. And, um, which is why, you know, I went to school for this. I really wanted to get the training and, uh, got my master's in psychology, marriage and family therapy. And I started just coaching people and really loving to learn about how to really embrace those differences, not just completely feel like we have to, you know, become the same person or think about things in exactly the same way. But

how do you, you know, if we were in a relationship, how do we navigate those differences without becoming enemies or without making each other wrong all the time? Yeah, that's really fascinating. I mean, just hearing you talk, I mean, I relate a little bit to my own experiences. Like I'm not a relationship coach, but my fascination with relationships and what I've learned and the things I try to share come from my own personal experiences, kind of like you just mentioned and things I'm just figuring out for myself. And then, well, I don't come from a family that immigrated to America. I do, you know, and have a, you know, very different cultural dynamic differences between, say, Syria and the Middle East versus America. But I did grow up in a very conservative household

that we talked a lot about on the show and how I was raised. And then as I become an adult or am an adult and have my own experiences, the challenges of using the things I was taught and how I was raised and the things that I really respect and value that my parents have and things that I don't necessarily still agree with at this time and trying to balance those out. It's really kind of a fascinating thing. of a fascinating thing. I do find that, you know, I don't know, in your experience, people really kind of struggle with that, you know, whatever, how we're raised and wherever we come from versus then we become our own people and, and struggling with doing what we think is right for ourselves or, or kind of living up to an expectations we have, uh, that we either come from our parents or schooling or just, uh, our friends and things like that. So much, so many expectations, right? Yeah. That some of them are we're aware of.

And I find a lot of the expectations that get us in the trouble are the ones we're not even aware of. They kind of creep up in the middle of a fight. Why didn't you do this thing? Like, wait a minute. Do I even believe in this thing that I'm asking for? Or is this, you know, the messaging of, you know, my parents or the cultural background that I don't actually believe in?

That is really interesting, too. Yeah. I think, do you see that a lot with the people you work with? I mean, I never thought of it that way, but we, we probably do spend a lot of time in relationships when we're communicating, fighting battles we don't really care about. Yes. Um, why, what, what causes that? What, what? Well, I think it's just so much of what you just said, Nick, right? That piece about those expectations and the things that our parents or our culture brings forth into our dynamic with our parents or whoever we're in relationship with. If I come from a culture that expects me to be married by 25 and I don't have a person by 25 years old, I'm going to start freaking out. You know, I was watching an episode that you guys did. Um, and you, I think you addressed this, you know, you're constantly telling people on your show, listen, if your end goal is the thing that you're focusing

on, you're missing out on actually, you know, seeing if there's a potential here, if this is a connection that I want to actually nourish and see if it's good for me rather than just trying to get to that expectation that I don't even know if I, if that's important to me. So it happens all the time and including myself. I mean, I, I, I talked about this. I've, when I turned 25, I literally freaked out more, like more than any other birthday. I'll never forget my 25th birthday. And that was thinking I was supposed to be at a certain point in my life, which was bizarre. But in that moment, it was like, I need to do this. And it was this kind of literal freak out. I'll never, I'll never forget.

And isn't it crazy how even though you know, logically, you know, that that's not true, you don't have to be married by this time, but the part of you viscerally, and that's what I mean by those implicit expectations. They're expectations that we have that haven't been questioned yet and where we get into a lot of trouble, you know, because if we start pressuring our partner, you know, I need to do this thing by X and we do it from that forceful or manipulative energy place, it can cause a lot of conflict and push your partner away. Yeah. When you work with your clients, do you discuss manipulation a lot?

I was talking to a friend recently who was having some relationship problems and they love their partner. They really care about them and their partner is a good person, but it seemed like some of their actions were quite honestly, when you were manipulative and in this situation, uh, their, their partner is, uh, very, um, they love to be close. They love to have, they love, they seem to like a lot of attention and the other person likes their space. But seemingly, and I've had this in my relationships where they're very demanding, they want to feel love, they want attention, they want a connection. And when they don't get what

they want, then they pull away, right? And they say, well, I'm feeling depressed or down and they say well I'm feeling depressed or down and they pull away and I had this before and it seems like it's going on in this friend situation is they're pulling away but they're expecting a reaction they don't want their distance because they need space they're saying they want their distance because they want to see what's going on and to me that sounds very manipulative

but I don't know if there are partners consciously saying like in a Machiavellian way, I'm going to do this. Like, why do we do those things that ultimately are manipulative, but it's not necessarily in a healthy way? Yeah. Well, you know, I have the, I have the perspective that we're all manipulators to some degree. Right. Yeah. That's kind of my, I personally think it's a huge spectrum. Some of us do it in well you know i have the i have the perspective that we're all manipulators to some degree right yeah that's kind of i personally think it's a huge spectrum some of us do it in tiny little ways that are you know not that big of a deal and we have that awareness around and we can almost be playful and just bring it into the relationship but there's some people obviously that this can

be really severe and it can be a huge issue and you, this is where having a map of the attachment styles, which is, you know, what I, what I significantly work with, with my clients, it helps to kind of understand how we were bonded with the initial people that were responsible for raising us, our caregivers, whether it's mom or dad, whoever was the main person that was emotionally, you know, responsible for taking care of our needs, how that relationship played out has a huge impact on how we're going to interact with somebody when we're in an adult relationship with someone in an intimate relationship. So what you're describing is, you know, somebody that's a little bit more on the anxious attachment style, you know, somebody that

is, and I don't know how deep you want me to get into these. No, yeah. Well, maybe let's backtrack a little bit. Like what are the different attachment styles? Like, is there a finite number? Yes. Okay. So what are they? Walk us through. This is, again, is the meat and potatoes of my work.

It has been life-saving for me and something that I, you know, I love talking about with just my clients and anybody I could talk to. So the attachment styles was a theory developed by a couple of amazing people. I want to make sure to give them credit. We have Mary Ainsworth, John Bowlby, they were the founders, and then Mary Main and Judy Solomon. So the four different styles is we have the secure attachment. So secure attachment is somebody that had a caregiver

that was really responsive. If I cry, you're going to be there for me. You're going to be responsive to me. You're going to be available for my needs. And let's say you make mistakes every now and then you're still good with making repairs. You don't leave me in distress. I trust you. I feel safe in the world. And so of course, you know, I grow up as an adult feeling like I can own my needs. I can own my needs. I can go to the person I'm in a relationship with directly and just say, hey, Nick, you know, I'm I'm feeling sad. Can you just hold me? You know, I can be clear about those things. And, you know, these attachment styles are fluid. They are very dependent on who we're with. So even

though we might resonate with one or more than one, it can still be impacted by other things other than our childhood, like if we were bullied or we moved a lot. So, you know, for people listening, I really want to, you know, invite you to instead of, you know, putting yourself in a box, you know, to really just focus on what are some of the behaviors that might be harmful for your relationships. So the second one is the anxious style, which is the one that when you started speaking about the manipulation kind of resonated a little bit. This is somebody that had really good access to their caregiver some of the time. And then the other time the parent was not available. Interesting. So maybe mom or dad was at work and they just were not physically there. Maybe they were struggling with addiction or alcoholism and so they were so into their own experience that they were not present for the child you know what I mean yeah no I totally do a question sure do

kids whose parents got divorced at some point in their life tend I might have the anxious attachment that could absolutely happen you know one parent who's super available like you had both of them and then all of a sudden one is available and one isn't available so that can create a lot of anxiety for a child you know so that person grows up to be really anxious in relationships because they're used to having connection but then as soon as you pull away you know let's say we were together and you i feel you distancing yourself even on a tiny little level i'm gonna freak out my you pull away, you know, let's say we were together and I feel you distancing yourself, even on a tiny little level, I'm going to freak out. My nervous system is going to, you know, activate and I'm going to start doing maybe things that feel manipulative.

You know, that thing that you mentioned to try to get your attention back. I might even threaten to leave the relationship because I'm hoping you're going to, you know, you're going to chase me. You're going to come after me. But I'm not trying to leave. I'm just trying to get your attention. And it's obviously very harmful when we're not aware that we're doing this because we might end up pushing people away in a very awful way. I mean, I was definitely in a relationship like that. And all I did was push me away.

What's the third? So the third is the dismissive avoidance style. This is somebody that was left alone a lot as a child. So the parents were not really tuned into the needs at all. Maybe they, you know, you fell down, you're hurting, you're crying. Parents like, don't be sad. You have nothing to be sad about. And this message of your needs not being important, repeated over and over again, causes the child to shut down internally. They become really good at self-regulating, to shut down internally. They become really good at self-regulating, taking care of myself.

And when I'm in a relationship now as an adult, you want to be vulnerable with me? Are you kidding me? I'm solid. I'm good by myself. I'm not going to expose myself to you because I'm so uncomfortable with revealing myself. I'm not used to people engaging me. I'm not used to people caring about my experience. So I put on this persona and a lot of times this person can appear really arrogant, but they're not. They're just, that's a way to mask that pain of having nobody that was available for them. These people are like the CEOs are really successful a lot of times, and they're really good at their life and they downplay the importance of relationships. So you'll see them, the ones that are really distancing themselves, getting into relationships over and over,

but never really committing on that emotional level. And it can really, you know, be hard to be in a relationship with somebody that is always keeping you at this like arm's distance length. Interesting. And then the fourth. And then the fourth. I know it's easier to just map it out first, right? Yeah. I'm just kind of curious. These are all very interesting. Yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad. So the fearful avoidant, which is also known as the,

oh my gosh, I'm blanking out. The fearful avoidant, which is also sometimes known as the disorganized. This happens when the parent has a lot of their own unresolved stuff going on. So let's say they have their own traumas or parents passed away. They never dealt with those things or they were abused or, you know, something bad happened. They never dealt with it. Now they have children. And as their children have their own feelings, they get really triggered by their child. And so they end up responding to their child in frightening ways because they're frightened. So they're having their own reactions. And so this can also be a place where the child has been abused. And these kids grow up to be really fearful of connection in general. They're more seeking of relationships, whereas a dismissive

is just like, eh, I don't need relationships, even though they still get into them. This person will want it, will want that closeness. But as soon as they get close, they'll push away. They'll run away. So they'll have that anxiety come up because all those. What's an example of that? So an example of the fearful? Yeah. Sure.

So an example would be I get into a relationship with someone. So this is the one I particularly resonate the most. So this may be helpful. Trauma, like I said, has been passed down in my family. I don't know if I mentioned that. Trauma has been passed down from the Armenian genocide in my family system. So a lot of things happening. So when I would get into a things got deep, I panicked. I freaked out. I wanted to run away. I was like, I can't handle these feelings. I can't tolerate them. I would become dysregulated. And so I had done this. I was the runner in every relationship. Every time we'd have a fight, I'd want to leave. And so that's how it continues to play out. But the relationship is usually safe, but your brain is telling you that something's wrong, get out. And so it's like a push pull, like I'm in, I'm out, I'm in, I'm out.

And obviously this is really hard for anybody that's partnered up with. And my partner has been very brave and patient and incredible to really help me to navigate this and to lean into those conflicts and to really trust that, okay, there's nothing to be afraid here. You can feel afraid, but you can be here and you can work through this and you can heal this stuff. And that's the beauty. When we're in healthy relationships, we can really heal a lot of these attachment wounds

that we develop as younger kids. It's interesting you call them wounds because it sounds like, I mean, the first one sounds almost kind of nice, the secure one. That's the one we want to attain to. But even that can almost mess you up in a sense because you feel almost like you have your perspective on security or your expectations of relationships of you project what you expect from parents,

what you've gotten. Because from everything about these attachment styles, we're taught one way. And subconsciously we seem to be reacting to that in our relationships. And that confusion can seem to always potentially cause misunderstanding and confusion in relationships. Sure.

Yeah, we could definitely project what we want and what we expect. But the thing about people that are more secure is they tend to have, they're really good at self-regulating. They're really good at being honest. They're really good at being collaborative. So if I'm with somebody that's avoidant and I'm secure, I'm just going to call that person out. I'm not going to play a game.

I'm just like, hey, I need this. If you're going to, if we're going to be in a relationship together, you can't threaten to leave every time something happens. We need to work through this. And if they see that this person is not doing their part, they're going to leave because they have that secure template that makes it easier for them to just be more drawn to healthy relationships. Are there certain attachment styles that are more compatible with one another? Or is it just everyone is capable of being in a relationship as long as you understand where the people are coming from? That's a fantastic question. I get that question a lot. I'm so anxious. I'm with

someone more avoidant. Can that work? And if we have a lot of emotional wounds, of course, it's going to be the most ideal to be with somebody that's more secure because they can help us to be more secure. They can help us because they're modeling those healthier behaviors. But I've seen so many dynamics work. Me and my partner both have kind of like the distancing strategies, but because we've been committed to being in a relationship, we can navigate those things. But the trickiest one I find is the anxious and the avoidant because they're literally activating each other's biggest fears. If I'm avoided and I have somebody that's really anxious and they're really, really anxious

all the time, I'm going to flip out and I'm just going to run into the hills. But you're freaking me out, man. You feel their anxious energy. Or the anxious person is going to just want to connect and maybe they don't express things perfectly, but the avoidance is going to be like, excuse me, like, where are you? Like, they just don't ever feel like they can grasp them. So unless both people are super conscious and really aware, that's why then the map offers that tool to start to become aware of like, OK, what are the things that I'm doing? You know, like for me, I'm a runner.

I have to, I can't run. Or if I make threats to, you know, push someone away, I have to be able to go back and repair that. Otherwise, the relationship is going to be doomed. Are all these relationship attachments, we talk a lot about parenting and how that plays a role, but as you said earlier, they're fluid. So we can have different styles within ourselves and different relationships. And I'm assuming we can also be affected

by previous relationships we have with partners. Absolutely. Right? Like maybe we had a great childhood and we have this very secure attachment style, but our first boyfriend or girlfriend really fucked us up and like was a certain way. Maybe they were like dismissive and distant.

And then we constantly, like if we, like if I'm assuming like if I were like that secure and I like, you know, I was so used to like having an issue and being able to express that and that person being like, oh, oh my God, let's, let's talk it through and we'll be there. And then I date that person and they're not it. And then, and we talk about early relationships where like we're stubbornly trying to make it work and we love this person and we believe in this love and we're going to fight for this love, but they're, they're doing this way.

That can really, I'm assuming mess up our perspectives. And then all of a sudden we become this person we don't recognize. I'd assume that happens a ton. I sometimes wonder about that with myself. And a lot of people, we give questions where it's like, who am I now? You get really messed up sometimes by the people we date. Sure. Yeah. I mean, we're relational beings. We get so affected by it. I could be with one person and feel more anxious because they're always so distant, I could be with another person that I feel really distant because they're so anxious. So absolutely these things have a lot of complexity and fluidity within them.

We talk a lot about like childhood stuff and we talk a lot about religion on the show. Um, like I, I didn't do, I had a great childhood and I didn't deal with a lot of trauma per se, but you know, my grandmother who recently just passed away, I love her and a great woman, very religious. And, and I grew up in a very religious household and to, you know, my grandma would always pray for us and she was great and loving. She was also a bit of a doomsdayer where like every week we would get like these tapes we had to watch. And it was great and loving. She was also a bit of a doomsdayer where like every week we would get like these tapes we had to watch. And it was pretty much always about the end of the world, you know. And like the sex before marriage, you know, growing up Catholic or even Christian, some of these, you know, contracts you have to sign, the guilt that comes with a very strong religious background.

It's a lot of fear based. You're going to burn in hell if you have sex kind of thing. And then as young adults, we decide to like bend these rules that we do. And then there's, can that affect in terms of like, not that that's trauma per se, but I feel like that can be fairly traumatic of going against the grain of what we were taught, not only by our parents, but like our religious beliefs and the fear that like, oh my God, I just messed around with my girlfriend. I lost my virginity. I broke this contract. What's going to happen to me?

How do I feel about that? Do you deal a lot with the people you work with and how that affects their kind of attachment they identify with? I mean, what you're saying is so dramatic, right? For any child to feel like if they do something, to feel that terror, to feel so much enormous shame is excruciating. When you say it out loud, it sounds fucked up. That's literally like all of it. Your entire childhood.

Well, not even mine or yours, but like so many of us. So many. Our culture really is, especially, again, I'm not knocking religion. Religions can be a great, wonderful thing that brings people together. But there are other aspects of it that really can cause trauma. And it's really fascinating how it affects relationships. Absolutely. And the attachment stat is just one map.

It's one way to look at one part of a relationship. But like you said, we are so complex. Religion plays a huge role. Our partners that we date play a huge role. If we moved around, if we got bullied, I mean, there's so many things. All of these are points that can, depending on how able we are to cope with them,

we can go through a traumatic event and still recover in a really resilient way. But if that experience is not held in a compassionate way and still recover in a really resilient way. But if that experience is not held in a compassionate way and we don't have support, that's when it can end up really staying with us, getting suppressed and then coming up later. You know, so what you're saying is I've, you know, I've had many clients that have struggled with religion and are recovering from that guilt and shame of not just knowing how to navigate their sexuality for themselves. And I think religion can be very shaming. And it's, I think that's one of the most

challenging pieces about, for me personally, from organized religion that I think is extremely, extremely damaging. Yeah, it can be. I mean, that's, I mean, Rochelle and I have talked a lot about that for both of our personal experiences and it. And it's kind of the playbook, right? Yeah, I wonder if it leads to that fearful attachment. Because if you do something wrong, then you're lost or you're gone. Like the church I grew up in, people were excommunicated. So there was that fear of getting cut off from your community. Your community, yeah.

Yeah. And I do feel that anxious still in relationships like if someone's about to leave i freak out yeah yeah and that makes so much sense given that that was your template if i do this thing this is the consequence it's not a consequence of you know let's talk through this what happened right let me stay connected to you no it's shaming it's it's making a child fear terror. And that is really, really, really challenging to work with. And there's been a lot of research coming out, um, how religions have been really, um, just really impacting people's mental health. And when it's not,

when religion is not brought into a child's life in a way that's developmentally appropriate, you know, like you said, the doomsday thing. No child can handle that, you know? I mean, literally, my grandma's like watching these videos. It was just like, you know, when John Paul II passed, before my mom even convincingly, I remember, it's so bizarre, but like he's considered a very great pope amongst Catholics. Great, great pope. A lot of great things he did. And, you know, my mom was like, oh, considered a very great Pope amongst Catholics. Great, great Pope. A lot of great things he did.

And, you know, my mom was like, oh, when he passes away, like it, we got about 10 years left on this planet. Your mom said that? I mean, kind of in a way that, and it came from my grandma and it was like this, in a way it was like this almost just glorifying him, how great. And he was a great Pope and a really great progressive. And he did a lot of great things, et cetera, et cetera. But it was like, kind of like these, you know, prophecies about,

I don't know, but like, there's something about the end of the world and it was all, it wasn't meant to be like a negative thing. was but I think parents are always doing it to protect you yeah right it was really meant it really came from a place of like best of intentions of like you know it was so fucked up and bizarre when I think about it how do we make sure that you're prepared

save your soul yeah I mean cause at least in my household like you know growing Catholic I mean there's a good argument to make. If we believe in life after death, our sole purpose here in life is to get to paradise or heaven or whatever you want to call it. So none of this temporary life really matters as long as we get to eternity. So in the moment, everything about like sacrifice and shame is all justified underneath the umbrella of we're just trying to get to heaven.

Right. So like, what a bypass. Yeah. It was like, Oh fuck man. Like, you know,

and so that could be a lot of, a lot of pressure. To me, that's what I call spiritual bypassing. What do you mean? It's a violation of our spiritual boundaries. You know, it's not. Tell me more. He's going to go into the boundaries conversation. Oh yeah. Boundaries. It's huge. Hard. Yeah. Hardcore. Boundaries are so, so important. Well, it's so much of what you

guys are describing. When a child is approached, when religion is introduced in a way that's really brought with shame or terror, that creates a spiritual boundary violation because the child is not, look, we're, our parents are always going to guide us. You know, if they're believing in a certain religion, they're going to take us to that religion. That's normal and expected, but the way that's done and the guidance and the conversations that go along with that play a huge role. And if that child is not given any space to question things or to come up with how they want to utilize that religion in their own way or spirituality or the lack of any of those things, it creates, it's one of the most traumatic boundaries that can be violated because the spiritual boundary is like our connection with, you know, that source energy, that part of us that is so personal and unique.

Raquel Lerner talks about this a lot and her work is brilliant. And it does, it creates a lot of trauma and fear, you know, fear to take chances, fear that if I do do something out of the box, like you said, I'll be exiled or I'll be shunned or shamed. And it definitely is huge. And I have yet to meet someone that has not experienced, even if they believe in a religion, there's still some of those hurtful consequences that come with it. it's hard to make choices as an individual if at all you feel like you're going against the grain of how you were raised. And whether that's religion or just something you got from your parents. Yeah, that happens in cults a lot too when you get shunned out. Yeah, or just, like I said, if it's not religion

and it's just your parents teaching you one thing and you grew up and you're just like, I don't know if I really agree with this. And then kind of to your point, some, and your parents are passing down things that they were taught. Yeah. Again, I had an amazing childhood and I had great parents. He grew up in a family of 11 kids. loving kids. Um, and, but I, the thing that I, I'm so thankful my parents and I talked about when they were on is my parents, um, were, were, uh, very much, they were very headstrong with each other and their beliefs, but as we became adults, they were never unwilling to, to learn. And especially, uh, you know, being one of the older ones, their parenting styles evolved and changed over time. I can imagine.

But I'm thankful for that because I don't think that's necessarily a guarantee that all parents will be like that. And they've learned a lot. And, you know, my mom, when she was on here, talked a lot about shame and things like that. And as a woman in her early 60s, is still like learning things and accepting things that, you know, quite honestly, she knew she like believed before and didn't now because a lot of

it was shame and fear based or things that she dealt with in her life. And a lot of things that she taught us was really just to protect us of things that happened to her in her life. But realizing that maybe it was coming from a place of fear and things like that. And it's really kind of fascinating to hear about this and putting some perspective around it. You know, what I love about what you're saying is that concept of that it's okay for religion and spirituality and for the way things are to shift as the world shifts and evolves,

right? in spirituality and for the way things are to shift as the world shifts and evolves, right? And I think being able to respect that something served a really powerful purpose at one point, you know, religions have been developed for important reasons to create structure and order and to, you know, have a place of community and worshiping something outside of just ourselves is a beautiful. And I think as, you know, humans evolve and as the world changes, I think it's that the piece that's often missing is that we're afraid to evolve those religions and those thinkings, right? Like everything. We're just, we want to stay stuck in the same way and that can, it can be confusing too, because truth is

we were human and we don't know, you know, literally, again, we're not trying to, you know, whatever we believe in, we could all be, we don't know. We don't. Right? We have what we believe. It's called faith. Faith with believing in something we can't see or know. And so we don't know. And so we hold on to these things.

And then that can make it, by definition, very difficult to decide for ourselves, well, am I right or wrong? We don't really know. And so you try to do what's right in your heart, but where does it come from? Does it come from a place of fear? And sometimes we have this, you see it a lot on the internet, interestingly enough. I always joke that the people who give us the harshest criticisms on the internet are the people who have, you know, Bible quotes in their bio. And again, even coming from a good place on their part of, you know, people righteously, you know, like if they've decided to live a certain life and try to do the right thing, they feel like now they should share this good word to other people, but they do it in a place of judgment and shame and pointing the finger. And that can really mess up people.

I've had a few people that follow me on Instagram that were big supporters of my work. And then I used a couple cuss words and they're like, I am no longer following you because the Bible. And I was like, really? Because of this? But I get it. It's like they think that what they're doing is, you know, helping or, you know, guiding us to a better place, but it's very shaming and judging of the person that's right in front of you. Yeah. Nick, what attachment style do you think you are?

Well, as you were going through all of them, I was like, I feel like I could be any of these. And I feel like maybe at times and maybe have been all of them, I was like, I feel like I could be any of these. And I feel like maybe at times and maybe have been all of them. Um, growing up for the most part, I think I was the, I mean, I could see myself being the first one. Secure. Secure. My, again, my parents always made me feel loved. I never felt like I couldn't talk to him very different than your childhood, Rochelle is. Well, again, like I felt there was the shame and there was the fear in terms of like sex before marriage and sinning and things like that. I never, looking back, ever felt like my parents wouldn't be there for me. You know what I'm saying? Like I never felt like if I made the mistake, like maybe I was going to burn in hell, but my parents were at least going to like

pat me on the back and give me a hug before I went, you know, kind of thing. I never felt like I was ever going to be exiled. So I always had that security and I always felt like my parents would always talk through things with me. So I, oh, and I think that has helped me in my relationships where I am, I try to be a good communicator. I always try to, you know, like if there's a problem, I try to address it. So I definitely think there's a lot of that for me. And then you lean in, like you're not somebody that leans out if difficulty happens. I have a hard time. Yes. And so I've been in relationships listening to, you know, you talk about the different styles and I clearly, I know I've been in relationships

with people who haven't had that. And there's that conflict of like, well, there's a problem. Let's work through it. And they're just not willing or want to is certainly in that moment to try to do it. And I have a hard time like being like, all right, I guess we'll just like wait to talk about it. You know, I guess I don't, I don't know, but like literally, and I've made the mistake. I'm assuming it's a mistake of insisting that we talk, you know, let's communicate, let's talk, let's get through it only for it to like literally go nowhere and it turns into like

a pointless argument because it's like all right fine you want to talk about it we'll just fucking fight you know and then they'll just start throwing shit that like and i i've always made the mistake of responding to everything that's thrown my way. Only to realize, like, you know, like whatever it is, like they'll say something. In the moment, I'm just, oh, you said that, I'm going to respond to it. Only to look back after the fight, they're like, they just said it. They probably said it because they knew it would make me mad. They were just fighting with me. But I was just so trying to communicate, but to a point of stubbornness,

where it was like I wasn't necessarily, I wanted to communicate it, but they didn't. And I was focused on that. So a lot of partners you've been with have been a little bit more emotionally unavailable, is what I'm hearing from you. Some of them, for sure. Certainly the first one, and maybe the last one. And then somewhere in between. The anxious one?

The CEO one. The CEO one is the one that just doesn't want to engage. That I could be the CEO? Now, at this point in your life. I thought about that one too. You don't want to get involved with people. I don't want to get involved. When you described that, I wondered if that was maybe me,

but I couldn't quite pinpoint where I might have gotten that from. Well, he did have his heart broken very publicly on television. I'm like, that's got to be traumatic. You don't think you've changed since? Because of that specific experience? No, I mean, listen, I don't want to downplay it, but not really. I don't want to downplay it, but not really. I don't feel embarrassment from it. I really don't at all.

Yeah, I've had harder heartbreaks. My first love is immature as it might have been at times. Those were heartbreaks. I really had a hard time getting over. I didn't have any perspective and the heartbreaks that Rochelle you're referring to on TV will hard and embarrassment and different because it was public, but I got over them much quicker because the relationships in reality were weeks long. And I, you know, like part of the heartbreaks that when you get over someone that you've been dating for a year or two years or seven years is like, uh, the, all the things you did together, you know, Sunday, well, what did we used to do on Sundays? You know, you used to do this and that and, you know, breaking up in a bachelor relationship.

I don't know what we would do on a Sunday. I've never had a Sunday with them them i don't fucking know i don't even know who they i've never met any of their friends those are very much easier to get over so but i i don't know you were saying how does how does some like the ceo one what is that called again the well i want to say so first of all going through a breakup publicly or however breakups are hard in general right and so it's totally normal to take breaks and to go through that grieving period. But the difference is with with attachments is knowing how you are when you're in the relationship itself. So that will kind of give you a little bit more clues. And again, you know, you can have anxious tendencies, you can have avoidant tendencies and you can be mostly secure. You know, so I work with a lot of people that are really great at, you know, a lot of things.

But there's a few things that they're they're really dismissive or avoidant of, or they're really anxious, these kinds of situations. Like what you said, you know, if I feel like somebody's going to, you know, bounce, my anxiety is going to go up, but for the most part, I'm pretty secure and communicative. But that particular trick is a trigger of mine, you know, and I'm really sensitive and I need someone, I need to set some pretty strong boundaries around, you know, people around me. So they don't do those kinds of things in hurtful ways.

But it's very, it's noticeable when we're partnered with someone how that these things really show up. You know, like I said, for me, it shows up, I become very avoidant and anxious. So fearful has both. So I can feel left person pulling away, but I also, I will shut down internally. So I'll want to, you know, not leave the relationship per se, but I'll start having intrusive thoughts. I'll start having anxiety and I'll start going through my own process. And that is kind of what helps me versus somebody that is anxious. They are not thinking bad thoughts about their partner.

They're thinking bad thoughts about themselves. They put their partners on pedestals. They actually don't see the red flags. So the attachment styles and dating is its own beast. You know, it's like a lot of the work that I do is like, okay, this is the kind of person you're attracted to, but are you actually seeing the person for who they are? As somebody that's more anxious, they idealize somebody they're with.

So they put them up there and they're not seeing those things because they so yearn for that connection that they're bypassing a lot. Whereas somebody avoidant goes on 300 dates like me and is just like, nope, nope, nope, flop, flop, flop, flop, flop. So that's where you can see that. I think we're the same, you and I. I don't know where I get it from, though. People who are avoidant, where is the genesis usually from? Because I definitely didn't get that from my childhood.

Well, like I said, adult relationships can play a huge role, too. If you were bullied, if you were treated a certain way in a certain dynamic, or if you didn't feel safe in a certain... I mean, religion can, of course, play its own piece if we felt terror in a certain way. But I'm not saying that is true. Could it be like time? I sometimes feel like it's like a chicken before the egg argument where, uh, your time as you get older seemingly becomes more valuable. You have perspective of time and you, uh, always people in dating, uh,

when they're ending relationships will always reference how long they've dated someone you know well we've been together for so like is a way that justifies trying harder which when you think about it makes no sense well we've been together for five years so I'm going to put up with more bullshit than I wouldn't which I guess to some degree maybe makes sense but often it really doesn't and so for me now is like i'm less willing to jump in a relationship because it's like i feel like i want it to be uh well if i date this person for six months and work on this relationship and then break up i've i've made i wasn't available to meet someone else but yet i'm never really giving someone a chance does that make sense and there's a lot of, I do that a lot.

The bachelor dynamic. I mean, I wonder if like, I mean, I can only imagine like if I was on the bachelor, that would, you know, that would, it's wonderful, but I feel like I would be so messed up. Me. That's what I think. Because I'm more anxious and because like the pressure, you know, I wouldn't know how to like, you know, just navigate that. And there's this pressure to propose and meet someone. And there's, it's just the whole setup can look for certain people. It can work really wonderfully. So it doesn't apply for everybody. You have to apply these things to yourself and just see what was the beautiful side of this experience, but also what was the cost? Where did it perhaps kind of shut me down or make me scared of relationships? Or like you said, maybe it just gave you really good perspective and maybe it's helping you. Maybe too much relationships. Like you said, maybe it just gave you a really good perspective.

And maybe it's helping you really assess. Maybe too much, though. Maybe. Maybe. You know? How would someone, like, heal that avoidant? Or get over that? How can we heal you right now? But this is like, I'm not in a relationship that way.

So, like, we talk a lot about this stuff and handling it when you're in relationships, but does it affect people who are single, who you still have an attachment, right? Whether you're in a relationship or not. Yes, you have it with friends. That must play a role in finding your next partner, right? Yeah. I mean, it's within you. And there's developmental stages. I mean, men in general tend to want to feel pretty stable and

secure in their own career, whatever that's just culturally, you know, society. So a lot of times when I work with men, there's that added complexity to it. So sometimes they just want to be at a certain place before they're, you know, so there's so many layers to this, but if you pay attention to your patterns as you date, what does that look like? You know, am I somebody, again, like I said, for me, because I have more of that anxious anxiety, I have a lot of intrusive thoughts. I could, I would be on dates. Look, 90% of the guys I dated, they were not, but there was a handful of really great guys.

And I was so focused on the flaws or this can't work because of this, but it was more because I was, I didn't want to be vulnerable. I didn't want to deal with the stuff that I knew like internally was going to come up. So I would make it about their flaws rather than really trusting that I was able and capable of working through this. But on the surface, it just looks like I'm focusing on this person's flaws, but underneath I'm so terrified. Right. And so with somebody anxious, they're so yearning for connection that they're, you know, really just not, not that they're willing to take anybody that they're just, that they're able to bypass those things. So again, there's so many things that impact this,

but from what I found that there are certain patterns that continue to play out. And those are the things that we want to pay attention to. You know, was this a really good person like to start bringing some logic into it? What was it about them that, you know, made me so turned off? Or why didn't I give them a chance? And what was it about them that maybe triggered me? You know, was there something about them that's bringing up some stuff that I haven't dealt with? Maybe your bachelor stuff, is it coming up when you go on a date? I don't know. I mean, it certainly comes up, but not always. It's a big deal. We talk a lot about patterns.

And one question I have is, are there certain of these attachments that are more common with men versus women? No. They're not. No. And actually, a lot of people think men are more avoidant, but that's not true. So the reason why I ask this is because we notice with a lot of our questions, and it seems like a lot of women tend to put their partner on a pedestal more than men do. And a lot of women we talk to are constantly justifying their,

their men in their lives actions. And, and, and just like, well, we'll jokingly ask him, well, what do you like about him? Like, well, he's nice to me. It's like, as if that like is some sort of badge of honor, but you're saying that's not necessarily the case. Cause when you describe like the anxious person who like puts their partner on a pedestal, it made me wonder are, are more women in that that category than men but that doesn't seem to be the case it's not i work with a lot of men that are anxious well i'm not i'm an anxious person but i was wondering what why i think women are more comfortable sharing there's this stuff too you know just culturally you think men are more comfortable no women are oh okay yeah you know

just if i'm more comfortable sharing about what my relationship is. Or I mean, if you look at just how many people respond on my Instagram comments, it's 90% women, you know, so they're just more culturally, we're socialized to be more emotionally in touch with the stuff and to talk about it more. Whereas men, they're filled in my DMs. I'm anxious about this. I'm anxious about this. And so I don't think they're as forward and vocal about it, but it's definitely still present. And men also, you know, we know this through research, women value connection more than men. Men value status more than anything else. And status can mean many things, you know, what gives them, this is just, you know, this is, but this is all across the globe. That's more of a priority. So if you ask more men in a relationship, you'll often see like if they're not feeling good in their career or what they're doing, the relationship kind of gets the, you know, second pass.

You know, I was listening to the episode where you had the girl who was going to move to Tennessee. Yeah. You know, I watched that last night and I was like, man, if he's not feeling good about himself and where he is, it's going to be really hard for him to just pick up and leave when he feels like he's not able to really provide something for her. And I was like, I wish I could join in this conversation. Yeah. I mean, when you say that, I mean, it's like,

I don't think about status and I've, I've, I mean, ultimately I've had relative, I had a really, I've had a really successful career overall and I've done a lot of great things and had a lot of accomplishments at the same time because I've had a really successful career overall, and I've done a lot of great things and had a lot of accomplishments. At the same time, because I've been a bit of a risk taker, I made some pretty drastic changes in my life, and ultimately I've been successful, but I've never felt settled with my career.

I'm generally a not-settled person, but because I'm so, uh, uh, fixed, focused on the kind of so-called reaching the top of the mountain or whatever that mountain is. Yeah. And I feel like I've really prioritized that, especially in my thirties, especially because I kind of took this big risk. I know that's definitely played a role where I just feel like I've always wanted to find someone, but I'd never felt like I was in a position to really, I mean, it was, yeah. But isn't that interesting? You know, just exactly that.

It's not that you're not wanting it. It's just that you're in a place where you're focused on yourself and wanting to make sure that you're. I felt that need to be more successful than I was. And I can tell you every single male client I work with, you know, one of the biggest things they tell me, I feel like what I have is not enough. They could be making so much money and doing all these things. I'm definitely guilty of that. You know, and it's like I come to find that a lot of times, even if they make a certain amount or do a certain amount, it's like it's still that feeling is always going to be there.

And it doesn't necessarily go away, perhaps. I don't know. You know, I don't want to be the expert on men. I wonder if this resonates. No, I think that to combat that feeling, I've thought to myself, I have to accept the fact that that feeling will probably always be there.

And I have to just then focus more on the other aspects of my life that I say I want, but need to do a better job of focusing on it because that unsettled feeling in my career will always be there. And that has also been helpful in my career because it keeps me sharp and motivated and ambitious. But I love that, what you're saying right now, because I think for people listening, this feeling that just because we have a feeling to embrace it to be there but also do the things that we want to do in spite of that feeling being there whereas if we focus too much on the thing then we'll miss out on so I love that perspective you just shared I say a lot too because I always get bothered uh in any type of relationship

friendships or romantic relationships and relationships and people using their feelings as an excuse. And I say that because again, we always have the right to feel the way we want to. We can't help how we feel. We feel some way and we should be able to share that. But just because you feel a certain way doesn't necessarily justify whatever action comes afterwards. And so we can feel it but you can also choose to handle and, and, and, um, uh, evaluate your own feelings differently. Like I can feel a certain way and I can keep saying, well, I feel this about my career. And so I have to keep going. Or I can say, well, I feel this way, but what do I really want? Am I

going to accept that? And sometimes, uh accept that and sometimes I notice a lot in people it's like well I feel this way and then because they feel this way they're justified to expect something from the person there who's making them feel a certain way and just because you feel that way doesn't entitle the other person to respond the way you want them to it's really hard stuff you're saying right now. Yeah, I don't know. I really resonate.

But it's really hard to figure it out. Totally. And I think as I've gotten older, I've had to learn that just because I feel a certain way doesn't necessarily give me the right to expect people to respond to cater to my feelings, which is really hard. It's a hard reality to grasp sometimes.

It's so paradoxical, right? It's like, I feel it sometimes it's so paradoxical right it's like i feel it but then i don't it's like i'm feeling this thing but i don't have to do the thing i think i need to do to make my feeling go away right i'm already confused i'm coming but yeah it's tough yeah it's like if i if i relied on my anxiety like i i'm going to feel anxiety no matter what relationship i'm going to be in i'm going to feel it intensely matter what relationship I'm going to be in. I'm going to feel it intensely. And if I feel like that anxiety means that this is the wrong person or the wrong relationship, instead of looking at what that's about about me, I'm screwed. I'm never going to be. But that's what I used to think, you know, in the past when whether it was a friendship

and they would trigger all these feelings in me and I'm like, oh, I got to go. Let me pack my bags. You know, their bags are already packed. Let me, I'm not kidding. They're ready to go. Ready to just press the button. But that was, that's such, that's, that's such a perspective, um, gift that I think that you bring, you know, when I listen to your sessions, it's like there's the emotional side, but if we miss the perspective piece, we get stuck in the emotions. If we only stay stuck on the perspective and we don't infuse any of the emotions then we're bypassing our emotions so it's like both of those gifts

together i i've been guilty of both too yeah like having so much perspective versus like oh great i can you know i can have the perspective but then you don't need to feel the thing you're not really vulnerable you're not really there it's like oh you, you know, uh, I already solved it. I got it. I'm done. What do I need to go feel this for? What about like we, you know, you see a lot in dating, like red flags, right. And then kind of the, the stereotype or cliche is that like, you know, men and women both do it, but women get more, uh, criticized for chasing the guy who's not right for that. I actually fucking men do it a lot too. But we do that, right? As men and women, we chase the thing that we shouldn't necessarily go after. Does that often cause these attachment issues that we have play a role in pursuing people who aren't right for us or sticking in relationships that deep down in our gut, we know aren't right

for us, but we, we keep going. How does that play a role with that type of thing? I think that that's a fantastic question. And there's a lot, there's a lot that does. Yeah. So if I'm more anxious, that's, that's kind of what comes up to me when I work with clients that are more anxious, they're used to doing the work. They're used to reaching and pulling, and they're used to the person not really being available. So they will continue making that effort. So it's almost doing double the work. And what happens, what's so painful about that is that what they need is to actually set boundaries.

They need to be able to just, oops, they need to just really vocalize what their needs are. But because they're so stuck in that anxious loop, they don't even really know what they need or they're communicating it in ways that are not helpful. So if I'm noticing that I'm doing that reaching, it's like, okay, where's the perspective piece, right? What am I doing here? Is this working? Is this person reciprocating? If they're not, then I have to say something. You know, I noticed that, you know, I've been making a lot of effort. I've been really trying to be vulnerable. I would really love the same from you and having a conversation and just even seeing how somebody responds to that because somebody could just be in their own world.

And it's our responsibility to call it out, ask for what we need and then observe. But if I call out what I need, there's a big chance that I might not get it. And I think that's the scariest part. It's the vulnerability piece, right? Like if I say this and you're like, no, I might not get it. And I think that's the scariest part. It's the vulnerability piece, right? Like if I say this and you're like, no, I'm not doing it. And then it's over. I love that you said that too, because I'll get this with my questions with Nick too. It's just I noticed that so many people avoid expressing what they want

because they're afraid of the answer they're going to get. So they just don't ask it. They just avoid the question altogether and maybe even convince themselves that, well, I don't really need that or I don't want that. It's fine. Well, he works hard or she does this or et cetera, et cetera. And then it just sits there and it never really goes away because deep down they need this answer.

They want their partner to do something different but they're they deep down know that if they bring up the question they're not gonna like the answers they just avoid it all together um and i i feel like a lot a lot of people do that i mean i do that with certain things i just like well i'd rather just not find out yeah so i just won't i won't you know, and I can just go about my life being ignorant. Yeah. It happens all the time and I'm guilty of it as well. So yes, having those conversations is that risk, you know, and, and the same time, you know, what I like to say is that you think of it as you're not just doing it for yourself. You're doing something that's going to

be supporting the dynamic as a whole. So don't think of it as just your knee. Think of it as you're not just doing it for yourself. You're doing something that's going to be supporting the dynamic as a whole. So don't think of it as just your need. Think of it as, first of all, holding the person accountable in a loving way is a beautiful gift you're offering to them. And they get to show up for you, especially if they're just in their own world or caught up with stuff. And if they're not, it just becomes so super clear that this person is a no. And it's just so freeing and empowering but we have to kind of hit this enough times to really get that okay if i keep doing this the same way i'm going to just continue to get the same response and over and over again so we got to hit our own bottom oh gonna hit our own bottom we gotta hit our own bottom. Metaphorically and maybe literally. Rochelle, which one do you think you are?

Well, is the anxious one where you're afraid that they're going to leave? I really struggle with, I think, feeling abandonment. I put people on pedestals and then it's all like whatever I'm doing wrong, and I'm afraid I'm going to do something wrong to make them leave. That makes sense. That sounds terrible. It's not good. It's not fun. Truly sounds like a prison. Well, I've not been in a relationship in a long time. I think I'm just, I don't want to feel like that. It's not a fun feeling to feel. Yeah. So for you, you know, being with somebody that really gets that about you

and it's really sensitive to that is going to be i imagine so important but i tend to be attracted to guys i think that like to be on a pedestal and then they just leave me because they ultimately but i i really like get turned on by these like narcissists yeah you know i do well that's the that's that's because it amplifies the fear. It perfectly matches the fear that you have. So when you see somebody like that, it's going to be like fireworks. Yeah. It feels great.

So that is kind of like going after the red flags, right? Yeah. Almost. I'm like, oh, he's like minorly into me. Yes. This is my person. It's really fucked up that are like our attachment things that we identify, the things that probably we can easily be attracted to will be the worst things for us. But that's where doing the work and just taking that time to explore our childhood is so important

because we start to connect those patterns and even give ourselves permission to feel some of the sadnesses that go along with those things and to, you know, to, to be present and reparent those parts of ourselves so that we can get comfortable and know this about ourself enough that, okay, I can make a conscious choice. And you know, what happens is when we're attracted to a certain type, we're going to feel less, I mean, I'm sure you know, I was like, we're going to feel less chemistry with somebody that's good for us. We're going to be like, okay, boring. This is not going to feel less i mean i'm sure you know i was like we're going to feel less chemistry with somebody that's good for us we're going to be like okay boring this is not going to do anything is that what we feel less chemistry for the people who can be good for us oh yeah only depending on

your attachment if you if you came if you had a lot of secure tendencies you're going to be attracted to people that are really good for you or you feel confident in your ability to work with their style whatever it is but if we have a certain parent that is a certain way yes it's gonna our brain is literally gonna light up like fireworks when we come across like i remember this feeling yeah this is home so familiar come here that's that is wild it really is it's and it's hard to date people that just feel calm and peaceful when you're not used to that. It's like, but that's the thing. And the attachment can build with that kind of person, but it takes longer. It's like, so you have to kind of go through those five or six, seven dates, even though you feel kind of bored.

But is this person interesting? Are they respectful? Do they have good qualities? And just kind of trusting, even though your intuition is probably saying no. Is that why the nice guys finish last mantra maybe comes from? You hear all these guys like, I'm always just treating them pretty good and I'm respectful. And meanwhile, they're attracted to these women who have these attachment feelings and they're seeking out the behavior that is more exciting to them. And these guys are just like, well, I'm doing all the

right things here. And yet it's not that they're doing the wrong things. It's they're that it's, they're not triggering a certain type of attachment that, you know, these people are, you know, are seeking out. It's kind of wild that way. And the nice guys are great as long as they have boundaries, as long as they're still calling out bullshit. Yes, she called it. You have to.

They can't be doormats. You can't. Oh, totally. Because then you don't, you don't respect the person. I mean, that's just, you know, we can't. Well, that's the thing too. It's just like the nice guys. It's like, well, yeah, you're a nice guy, but. But he's not being authentic. He's not having the boundaries, boundaries right so he's not really being true to himself and to the relationship

you know yes so nice guys out there be the nice guy be the great but just make sure you're still calling her out in a loving way because or him you know both yeah totally and that's like people it's like people seem to often are one or the other. You're like the total asshole and you're constantly a dick or you're the pushover who's like just afraid to like, you know, have, you know, have power and like, I mean, that's great, but I don't like it. You know, like, great, but stop. You know, like, that's not cool.

I don't find that attractive. I love you, but like, don't do that, you know? And then how we communicate that always is really important. The boundaries piece? Yeah. Yeah. I think we should have her back to talk about boundaries. Boundaries is a big one.

Yeah. We have a few more minutes. We don't. We have to let go, go? Yes. We have a, oh. Okay. Anyways, let me reset.

Well, this has been very, very fascinating. I feel like there's so much more to dive in and learn about attachment. Is it, it's not, I want, it's not attachment disorder. I feel like I keep wanting to say attachment disorders. It's like attachment styles, attachment styles, how we learn about, about that. So like, uh, obviously people can learn more from you about these styles. And then the, the, the people who came up with it, uh, you have a podcast, uh, you talk a lot about this. What's the name of your podcast? Uh, the podcast is called love with integrity.

And I also have a boundaries program that covers attachment styles too if you guys i don't know if you want to include that it talks about all the different ways that you really you know if you're more anxious how do you set boundaries so you're not a doormat if you're more avoidant how do you set boundaries so you're not always so rigid and you know trying to protect yourself all the time so and you can find that at your website yeah Yeah. It's the link is in my Instagram. Great. As well as my website. And where can people follow you on Instagram? Where? Do you mean what's the name? Yeah. What's the name? Sylvie Koukassian. S-I-L-V-Y-K-H-O-U-C-A-S-I-A-N. And the page is all about the attachment styles and boundaries and all kinds of practical. I like to really give people practical tools. Like,

how can you actually do this? I know this great, now what? Yeah, because just even now, we've talked a lot about it, it can be very confusing of trying to figure out what you are, what you think you are, what your partner is, and even then, like you just said, it can be very fluid. And it's hard to even really know what to do with that even once you maybe even have identified it correctly.

Yeah. My page talks about a lot of this stuff where like, okay, if you're avoidant, this is how, or if you're with somebody that's more avoidant, how do you approach them? So you're not pushing them away. If you're with someone anxious, how do you approach them? So you're calming their anxieties and you're not, you know, amplifying them. So absolutely. That would be the next tier if we had more time. One final thought to address.

If you are in a relationship and it's not going great, how do you know when to walk away versus when to fight for it? Because I think we talk a lot about that in relationships. And there doesn't seem to be a clear answer, right or wrong, because you should fight for relationships. Relationships are never easy. I saw something on Instagram that talked about there's no perfect person who's not going to trigger you, right? That's a great point. Like we talk about like forever, like you're Mr. Right or Mrs. Right, forever is a long time and someone's

going to get on your nerves eventually. How do you know when it's just a trigger that you can work through versus like, this isn't your person and they don't bring out the best in you? Like, what's like a, just a quick kind of thing we can try to recognize. I know it's a big one. We don't have, you don't have to answer in one word, but like, that's a complex thing that could be, I think would be helpful to a lot of people listening. Sure. So to answer this in the most, the most simple and complex way that I can, it depends on so many things. I mean, is the relationship bringing enough of what I do want? Is there good in the relationship? Is there certain values aligned? Are we both trying? Am I the only one that's making effort

to fix things? Because that's oftentimes what happens is one person is struggling, another person doesn't care or doesn't care enough to want to do something about it. So it's like assessing, you know, have you done your own work? How you, have you figured out what your triggers are? Have you really taken responsibility for communicating those things in a way that's not really pushing your partner away? And have I, you know, are we just going through a difficult patch in our relationship and maybe we just need some support to get through this. Then there's a long history that we do want to actually. So there's so many, so many parts to this. But I think the great thing about learning to communicate vulnerably and responsibly

is once you start doing that a handful of times and modeling that wherever you are in your relationship, you really get to see if your partner is meeting you and you really get the confidence to ask for what you need. So if I'm really showing up, I'm really being present for your more avoidant style. I'm really showing up and being sensitive around that over and over and over again. And I'm noticing you're not doing anything back. I would approach you like, Hey, you know, I've noticed I've been really trying lately. I don't know if you noticed me showing up differently. I really want to make effort here. This is what I need from you.

You know, so you feel more confident to ask when you're actively engaging and showing up in a way that's meeting your partner's needs. I think that really helps us better assess whether somebody is really on board with doing their part of the work. You know, does that help? Yeah, no, that that's great I mean but that's like the ongoing one thing to try to figure out I feel like everyone in a relationship struggles with that especially in this you know back in the day it was like you know to death do you part you know you know so many choices back in the day yeah yeah your options were limited now it's almost like paralysis of choice and then you figure out like what with do I stick with this? Is there something better for me?

And you know, that's the hard, it's a hard challenge. I think that's the challenge of this generation. No doubt in dating is that there's so much choice that it completely obliterates just the ability to get a sense of, you know, there could be a lot of great choices, but choosing one is hard. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you, uh, you coming on. This has been very fun and enlightening and there's obviously a lot of helpful information that you have. So obviously people check out Sylvie, listen to her podcast, a lot of great information. I really appreciate you taking the time. It's been really fun to to to learn a lot from you and i hope our audience enjoyed uh learning about this it really kind of is enlightening in terms of understanding uh how we communicate and and where that comes

from and our relationships and our childhood and how that all plays a role and and how we approach it approach rate present situations in our lives. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for coming. It's been a ton of fun. So thank you so much. Thank you.