The Viall Files - E484 Going Deeper With Jason Alabaster - Tells All, Try Guys Drama Plus Brad & Leo Dating Stories

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files, Going Deeper Edition! Today we have a very exciting episode where we welcome on Jason Alabaster from this last season of The Bachelorette! First off, we dive into some hot goss on all things pop culture, talking about Lil Nas X delaying a show because of stomach issues, the scandalous cheating situation involving Ned from The Try Guys, and Emily Ratajkowski hanging out with Brad Pitt after her recently getting cheated on by her ex. We also discuss sharing your streaming service logins and if you should kick your ex off your account if you catch them watching Game of Thrones. We then get deep with Jason, reflecting on his time on the last season of The Bachelorette! We check-in on how his heart is doing, what drove him to come on the show, and what made him initially interested in pursuing Gabby. Jason also talks about sitting by the fireplace instead of talking to people most of Night One, the pressure of potentially getting engaged to someone when you’ve talked for less than ten hours, and accidentally stepping on Gabby’s foot. We also see where Jason is at in the healing process, his reactions to comments that he led Gabby on, and breaking up in the Fantasy Suite. We then welcome on our two Texting Office Hours callers! Our first caller feels attracted to her physical therapist and felt inspired to call into the show after hearing about our other caller that shot her shot with her chiropractor. Now she wonders about the perfect date, where she can make it romantic, but can also have an escape plan to friendzone him if things don’t go well. We then bring on our next caller who left the possibility of being friends with her ex after they broke up. Now that her ex wants to reconnect, and with him sending over 100 long diary entry style text messages, our caller wonders if she bit off more than she could chew and the best way to move on from someone that has an unhealthy attachment to the hope of something more.  “We basically broke up in the fantasy suite.” Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  If you would like to get some advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Office Hours” in the subject line!  Be sure to check out my sports radio show Fandemonium, Wednesdays @ 3PT / 6 ET  on Amazon's Amp app.  Click the link to download Amp using my code NICKVIALL https://apps.apple.com/us/app/amp-host-live-radio-shows/id1586403838 Pre-Order Nick’s Book: https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/dont-text-your-ex-happy-birthday_9781419755491/ Check out our new "Introvert" merch at http://www.viallfiles.com today! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Wildgrain: Hungry already? For a limited time, you can get $30 off the first box - PLUS free Croissants in every box - when you go to http://www.Wildgrain.com/VIALL to start your subscription. Care/of: For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to http://www.TakeCareOf.com and enter code viall50. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @jason.alabaster See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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We got a whoo. The wedding was good. It was so good. It was the best day. Like we just like keep thinking about it. And my mom was like, I wish you could have stayed an extra day just so we could have more time to like rethink about it and rehash it. And I was like, well, the file files is calling and I must go. Were there any particular highlights? It was really nice. My sister wanted to sleep the last night like in her bed, which was honestly nice. We debated like, should we go to a hotel? But in that way, it was really nice because I like snuck into a room at like 530 and played like going to the chapel on my phone to like wake her up. And then my dad started blasting it throughout the house.

And then the four of us were able to just like go to Starbucks and kind of like start our day together. My dad like dropped us off. We started getting ready. All the girls were like it was just such like a good positive vibe. We went and took photos on the river in St. Paul, which was one of their main date spots that they would go to when they were in high school. So it was sentimental, but also beautiful. It was at this big church, old church in St. Paul. She just looked stunning. The colors were amazing. And then we went back to the venue. The whole thing was really well planned out. The planner

was great. She organized time for them to just be in a room by themselves. She had like a Moscow mule for my sister and an old fashioned for Patrick and like a little bit of appetizers. But she's like, you guys just need some time, the two of you before you greet everyone and whatever. We had like a live band with jazz players and like four different singers. I did their first dance. We had speeches.

And the wedding planner wanted to do the, um, the reception where like it immediately there was dances and then my dad's speech and then salad and then back on the dance floor and then main course. And then my speech, like it was very, it wasn't just like speech, speech, speech. So it was just like a lot of variety. Talk to some people. It's like weird going to a wedding when it's like you're one and only sister because you know almost everyone there. And I'm like, I can't even really, I felt similar to my sister where I was like, I can't talk to everyone. And I felt bad, but I was like, it's just hard because

you literally know everyone there. But it was so much fun. Went on the dance floor. Someone tried to flip me, completely fell on my ass, but that was fun. Speaking of momentous occasions, Nick, did you feel like that at your party? Because it seemed like I felt like I was in the Vile Files alumni mixer. It was great. We talked a little bit about it on yesterday's show. But yeah,

Natalie threw me an amazing party. Chrissy made an appearance. Shout out to Chrissy. She flew in from the woods. She finally made it from her camping excursions to come to the party. Yeah, I had some friends fly in from New York. It was very meaningful. It was great.

Allie made it to Natalie's party. Amanda made it to my party. We just like to allocate our resources, you know? Yeah, just split up your time. I had a ton of fun. My family was there. It was the best adult birthday I've ever had. So it was, you know, it's one of those things I don't feel comfortable celebrating myself. But

when, you know, when people go out of their way to show me some love, it was very meaningful. So I really, I really appreciated it. It was also nice because I felt like everyone there, as a result of you being kind of the commonality connecting force, was someone who I felt like I ended up having really good conversations with people. It wasn't just kind of like your classic pleasant small talk. I feel like we launched into really deep or very intense personal conversations. And it was just a nice feeling like, oh, yes, the room of people who Nick enjoys and like close to and spends time to like everyone in that room is like a very like thoughtful kind of like yeah i don't know it was very interesting good vibe good vibe

yeah i don't like surface level people you know get the fuck out leave no time for you all right well we have jason on this episode. I know you guys are all excited for that. It's looking like the Tino interview is still going to happen. I know. I mean, hey, listen, I'm reluctant to say that just because obviously we thought it was going to be last week. It did not happen. But again, we understand why. But hopefully the week of, would that be Thursday the 20th? So hopefully it happens with Tino. But this conversation with Jason is great. I've gotten to know Jason, obviously interviewing him. He actually showed up to the party.

I've gotten to know him a little bit afterwards. I got to say, I think Jason and Nate are two of the guys. Obviously, I've had an opportunity to interview them both recently. But Jason and Nate, especially Jason, I really see myself in both of them in a lot of ways. And I've really enjoyed getting to know them. I think they're both guys who are very thoughtful men. And I think they are very careful who they are thoughtful to at first. And found themselves to be felt a little bit out of place

in the reality TV space and kind of overthink situations. But in person, I've really have gotten to enjoy their sincerity and character. And it's two guys that the more I've gotten to know outside of the show, the more I feel lucky to have gotten to know them both in a sense that, you know, some people are able to really come through on camera and some people it takes some time to warm up. I mean, you know, I think sometimes people forget that early on my season with Andy, I was, you know, portrayed and known as the skeptical guy who really didn't like, you know, trust the process, so to speak. And, you know, Jason and I will get into into what he thought

or how he went about it. But I still, like I said, I don't know. I just weirdly, I see a lot of myself in Jason and he is someone who I've enjoyed getting to know. And so I hope you guys enjoy this conversation. But yeah, what do we got before we could do? What do we got? We got some pop culture topics.

What's going on this week? We don't talk with, we just spend most of the conversation with Jason talking about jason so because you're not going to want to talk about little naz x uh needing to delay his concert to quote drop demons in the bathroom yeah we cancel a concert because he had to poo no no just a pause just delayed and he said quote i was literally back there dropping demons. Good for him. Moments like that.

Good for him. But I think the more pressing. So, OK, there's a few things. There's the Try Guys situation, which is that Ned Fulmer, Try Guy and famously formerly a wife guy. It unsurfaced that he was having an affair with an associate producer on the show. And also they have now, the Try Guys have since released a statement saying they will not continue to work with him. And this is a group that's been together

for a really long time, both starting out at BuzzFeed and then launching their own YouTube channel. And so much of his personality was around being a wife guy and being this like good family man, father to his children. Everybody's cheating.

Or everybody's getting caught. True. Yeah, everyone has been cheating for a long time. I mean, I don't have sympathy that he got fired. I mean, one, I mean, if it's with a work colleague. Yeah, I mean, I just, I hate the, and this was an affair, right? Like this was an ongoing thing.

When did he admit it? Did he get caught or he owned up to it? Like, what do you mean he admitted to it? Let me look at the exact. Like, was this like, how is this, how does this compare like to the Adam Levine situation where he got like outed by someone? Also, did you see Natalie's TikTok about Adam Levine? I did. Yeah. Yeah. He did DM her. Yeah. So it was like, it started with him being missing from the videos, like the recent video Try Guy content. so that was kind of how people like rumors on reddit were swirling about like why was he not there this kind of speculation

so it seems like it was like discovered internally and then got out to a larger audience oh they were allegedly seen like making out at a club in new york at a concert yeah there were pics pictures oh okay so he got caught he didn't own up to it. Yeah, I definitely did not. Like, you know, he since made a statement, but it was not like a... He didn't choose to come forward with it. I mean, listen, it's an extra... I mean, listen, if you are a public figure of any kind and, you know, I don't feel like, for example, like Nellie and I, like, I don't feel like my persona is wrapped in my relationship

with Nellie, but the more we stay together and the longer our relationship lasts, you know, the more I talk about our relationship, the more I share about that relationship. And then I think people then identify and connect with it. And if you use that and like, you know, to be, let's be candid, like mine and Natalie's relationship has probably drawn in certain fans that might not necessarily have been drawn to me, but are more drawn to my relationship, right? And I guess in some ways that has benefited me as an individual, benefited the show, especially once it's come on and people are interested in learning more, et cetera, et cetera, or interviews we do. And it just comes across as extra gross and extra

dirty when you get caught, like, again, having an affair. I mean, there's cheating and then there's having an affair. And while I'm not, you know, it's like, is one better than the other? And I actually think there is in a sense that like, well, I don't have any, you know, sympathy for cheaters. But I also recognize that people are human and people make mistakes and we can have weak moments and we can have low character moments. And sometimes we just have to fess up and face the consequences and give an opportunity for the people we are wronging a chance to either forgive us or not forgive us. But when you have an affair and you have an ongoing situation of, I mean, just think about a relationship of any kind, like just in an

affair. How many lies do you think you have to tell a day if you just in an affair in this like how many lies do you think you have to tell a day if you're in an affair you know what i'm saying like constantly like truly like you probably have to lie hundreds of times a day and it becomes maybe so natural and like and it's also lies in the sense of the truths we don't tell right it's like it's not the same as like you know if you're having an affair it's not like your partner constantly every day is this like are you cheating on me and you're like no and that's a lie, it's not like your partner constantly every day is just like, are you cheating on me? And you're like, no, and that's a lie. But it's just like all the little things of like- Where you're going, who you're seeing, why you're smiling. Yeah. And like, you know, if this guy's out in a bar making out with someone,

where did his wife think he was? And just like the lack of character that requires. And every, like, I just don't, I do not understand how people do that. Like I can, I can understand how you can be unhappy in a relationship and not feel seen and frustrated and not sure how to handle, handle it. And then, and, and choosing the, you know, low character decision of having a, and cheating, like, you know, like for example, Latino, he did like, but like the ongoing affair to me that is so much worse and again it's not to forgive the cheater who maybe have that moment but I can again I can understand we as people we have good moments and bad moments and we we've all had low character

moments but like that is not the same as having some ongoing affair and the amount of lies is required to keep that up and it's just like I, I'm always in awe in such a bad way of people's ability to do that. I have a hard time finding any empathy for those situations. Not every vitamin is created equally. And the worst part about vitamins is that's easy to forget to take, especially if you're taking multiple vitamins at once. That's where Careof comes into the conversation. Careof is a subscription service that ships high quality personalized vitamins, supplements, and powders

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and enter code V-I-A-L-L-50. Well, I mean, on the subject of cheating and moving on beyond cheating, Emrata, who has famously experienced some terribly shitty behavior by her ex, Sebastian, has since been seen with Brad Pitt. They've just been like gallivanting around Europe together. Seems as though they be

fucking, but in a very casual, fun way that everyone's down for. Hashtag they be fucking, man. Yeah, I mean like that's some hot sex, you know. Do you think Leonardo DiCaprio and Gigi Hadid are having hot sex? What do you think their sex life is like? I still don't understand that for Gigi. No disrespect to

Leo. But you do with Amaranta and Brad Pitt? Yeah. Yeah, because Brad Pitt was married. And maybe it's because Brad Pitt's been such a mystery. You know, he's been married, obviously, a couple times, you know, like, but in terms of, like, what's Brad been doing with his dating life the past couple years? He's definitely a little bit more private, and

you know, again, like, you know, do whatever you want to do, Leo. I mean, I'm also dating someone who's younger than me, but he just has such a track record of, I don't know. And I just, Brad Pitt, I mean, I saw Bullet Train over the weekend. While I didn't particularly love the movie, like Brad Pitt is, he continues to like become hotter and hotter. And like a fine wine that his wife is suing him over.

Yeah. And Leo, you you know it's um he's like famous for his peter pan syndrome well not only that i just don't know if time has been as generous to leo it's been to brad and it's like it's gg hadid it's just like i'm just trying to figure out i don't know like yeah a guy who just is so non-committal and and i just don't i'm just curious i feel like it's maybe this has like always been a thing but i'm like now like brad pitt leo like ryan seacrest is dating a 24 year old like it's just like what i feel like they're all those guys are like in a similar age range

and they're all dating women in a similar age range where's the middle ground what what where's the middle like i'm just like it's just like what is the trend? I'm confused. What are you confused about? I don't know. I can't put it into words. It's just like, they're all the same. I also honestly am not. I kind of think

there's a chance that the Leo and Gigi is a PR thing. I 100% think it's PR. Because I don't... I think it's, I think, you know, just they know

they're both getting insane press. If you're Leo, you love it because people are talking less about your breakup and more about your new relationship. And if you're Gigi, I mean, it's still Leo.

He's still one of the most famous people in the world. I 100% think it's PR. Yeah. It doesn't seem super stupid. And as far as the Amrata and Brad thing, good for both of them. Like, what a amazing rebound for Amrata and for Brad, you know? They're both considered some of the

most attractive people in the world. And I think we just love it when hot people like each other. I also think there's something about Brad Pitt and I'm definitely just thinking about his character in, um, what's that financial movie? Do you know? Moneyball? The Big Short. I'm thinking about his character, also Moneyball, but like, I'm thinking about his character, also Moneyball, but like I'm thinking about his character in the big short of just this like very like kind of like strategic, like calculated off the grid guy. Or like I think there's also just this like I have this general sense about Brad Pitt that I'm like he's emotionally mature. He would love her right. Like he would be respectful. He would communicate in a way that I don't.

It's not that I certainly think Leo is incapable of those things, but I definitely don't go out of my way to associate those character traits yeah there's never been any like fuck boy rumors with Brad Pitt over yeah right he has children Leo's like popping bottles on yachts yes yeah I mean you know who knows you don't want to judge a book by its cover I mean I guess all the people you know in my dating history I was single for a long time yeah uh who knows but yeah I don't know if either of those situations are going to last. And maybe they're both for PR. I don't know.

Like, and like, and I wonder, like, it's like, I don't think they're both like, it's just for PR because it's like, why wouldn't you want to hang out with these people? Right? Like, no one's twisting anyone's arm to like, have a cup of coffee with Brad Pitt or Amrata for that matter, you know, or Gigi Hadid

or Leah. They're all part of like this very exclusive group of people. Yeah. So I don't think they're like hating each other's company and it's totally, you know, but like, does that mean, I think they're just allowing the rumors to flow and they don't mind being seen around and everyone's benefiting from it. I don't know. But I think it's, I don't know what it is about hot people hooking up. It's an exciting time for all of us. Yeah. Well, I also think you date in your circle. And I don't know if you saw this is, I don't think this got a ton of attention, mostly because there's not a ton of drama around it. Like it was very respectful timeline wise. But Chris Redd, an SNL cast member,

is dating Christina Evangeline, who is Kenan Thompson's ex-wife. So that'd be like if Ali dated one of my ex-boyfriends. Keep it in the family. Or my ex-husbands. Ooh, how does Kenan feel about that? There was no overlap. And it seems like Kenan's happily dating other people. So that's why I don't think it's getting a ton of media attention is because it seems

like everybody was clearly- No one's upset about it. Communicating. But it is still like, I wonder if there's a little part of you that's like, come on, do you want them all along? Like that Christmas party. Do you,

would like, would you, would you hook up Allie with broken leg guy if you thought they were compatible? Amanda's not a good person to ask about this because Amanda's like giving and giving and giving. Amanda's like setting her exes up with like other exes, like roommates.

She's like, you guys will be great roommates. I'll start a dating collection. Literally. She's like, you guys will be great roommates. I'll start a dating collective. literally. She's like, matchmaker, matchmaker. Um,

depends, honestly. On what? Um, like, that's the question. Yeah, I guess,

um, the sense of like closure. Cause I, I think it's the kind of thing where like, in order for it to go, okay, you can't have a sense of tenderness or like any lingering kind of insecurity. Do you have tenderness for broken leg guy?

It would be a dick. Broken leg guy would be like, that is so fucking disrespectful of you to think, no, I don't want to date your friend. Like I'm still mad at you. I don't care about broken leg guy's feelings. I know he's kind of obsessed with you, but I'm asking if you would be okay with it. If you thought he was indifferent towards you. It's hard for me to like extricate the like dick move of it.

But I know, I think there's some people who I genuinely would be totally fine where I would be like. I have certain exes. was indifferent towards you it's hard for me to like extricate the like dick move of it but i know i think there's some people who i genuinely would be totally fine where i would be like certain x's where i would be like yeah like i mean i have certain x's that i still think very fondly of and like it just wasn't happening i would like other than other than like true girlfriends like i've had women i've dated over the years um and it didn't work out and I happily would introduce them to friends. I didn't care at all. Right. But there wasn't a true emotional connection,

like a real bond. I think there's a weird thing when you start introducing someone you're dating to those friends and then you break up and then they start dating I think that's what makes it weird because you're you're you play you go back in your head and play back like was there a was there chemistry that was going on that I didn't see when I was together with this person it's all about the amount of control that you feel you have

in the situation because if you get to like swoop in and be the good guy who's like making love happen and who's so unbelievably like detached from someone and can want them to have love with someone and acknowledge it's not you, like that's an awesome look. But I think when you feel one, if you feel rejected by the person or if you feel a lack of control over the way people get together after the fact, that's when I think it starts to get kind of like hard not to resent someone. Yeah. Oh, the selling, the Chris Shell and Jason sharing passwords. Sharing HBO.bo well she like was still logging into his hbo even after they broke up that's a great discussion topic of like is it okay to share or not is it okay but like would you continue to share passwords oh yeah i think it's i'm still on wedding guys uh team chris shell here it's just like it's not that it's like you're, it's just, you're too lazy to log out and

log back in because like how many, how many people actually remember their like Netflix passwords, you know, and things like that. And so like, it's such a pain in the ass to like find someone else, find your own and have to do the whole reset password. I don't think it's like, oh, you're, you're hanging on because like you still want something out of them. It's a, it's a bit intrusive if you're a bit intrusive if you're both like, maybe you're both watching the Dahmer film, right? And all of a sudden, they're logged into your show. And Natalie and I will just watch our shows. And

then when we get tired, we'll stop it and we'll pick up right where we left off. And I could imagine, and I think what Jason Oppenheimer is in a new relationship and all of a sudden like him and his new girlfriend are watching a show and then they stop it and they you know they come back on and it's also on like episode five where they fit you know where they stopped watching in the middle of episode three and then you realize it's your ex-girlfriend who has also been watching the same show and she just you know is more of a binger than you then it gets fucking weird well that's what happened they were both watching house of dragon but it was like they

said chris shell's quote was like he got playfully mad because i messed up his place in the show so it's not you know it's clearly a non-story it's very relatable but like i don't you know like it's not like there's alternative motives it was just like i'm logged in and instead of like logging back out like who gives a shit i think we just forget that like if you're watching the same show it's people are going to notice i'm still listed under a wedding guy's like apple family like he added me to like the apple family like your own profile no like it's like i don't know but like now for our devices like i see his name and his devices too and i'm just like hey like i think i think. I think I'm using Demi's Disney Plus.

You're using Demi's Zoom. I have a Disney Plus account. It said Demi for four years. Every time we would make a Zoom meeting with you, it'd be like Demi's in the waiting room. Yeah, it's because you use my Zoom once and I can't figure out how to change it. But yeah, I just think that happens all the time.

And it's not because I'm trying to use Demi's. I it's not because, like, I'm trying to, like, use Demi's. I think I have a Disney Plus. I'm just too lazy to log out. And I don't even know my Disney Plus password. My boyfriend has logged into all of my, like, my HBO Max, my Hulu. And, like, you better believe if we break up in a way that is, like, at all contentious, like, immediate acts, I will be so petty in that way. Yeah, but that

takes work what to just like change your passwords sure on all your yeah it's so worth it it just depends on because i would just feel so exploited if you're like if if things end if you got broken up with you would you would do that right away that would be the first thing you'd do yeah benefits stop immediately i mean that's like a lot of people would like benefits stop immediately if it's contentious if there's like a severance period you know yeah but if you got let go what wouldn't you try to maintain the benefit but i have the benefits i'm the benefits provided oh you're the benefit you're okay you're the one that's giving it out okay oh oh are you asking like if he broke up with me out of a point of pride would i have logged out of any of his accounts

the answer is no i would not i would stay i would mess up all of his timelines yeah i was like i was going forward i would you start watching some weird shit yeah i would watch like really like pointed like my ex is a narcissist like a really like a petty tv i don't think yeah yeah start watching some real shows that make them you know either think you're moving on or or not moving on or, you know, accuse them of... How to build a sex room. Yeah, I would. How to build a sex room.

I've watched that already. All right. Well, we have a great episode for you, Jason, everybody. Don't forget, my book is available. Don't text your ex, happy birthday. Can't thank all those who have already ordered it and written reviews and all your comments. I super appreciate it. I definitely worked really hard on this

and I really think you will all enjoy it. If there's anything, if you like this show, I really think you'll like this book and I think there's something in there for everyone, whether you are out actively dating or you're in a very happy relationship. Again, this book is really more about changing your mindset on any given situation, change your perspective on dealing with disappointment, standing in your power and not giving away your power so easily,

especially when we are susceptible to wanting to feel validation and all those things. And I really think you guys will enjoy it. And so it's available now. It's out. You can get the book. You can listen to me read it to you. Go to vilefiles.com. All the purchasing options are available to you. And if you want to buy the book and listen to the book, you can do both. The book is written to be treated as like a guide or a manual to refer back to, especially if you're out there dating. If you have friends who are struggling in the dating scene, I highly recommend this book. I promise it'll make them feel more empowered and more in control. When it comes to our dating problems, nothing is ever solved completely.

But as long as we just feel, we prevent ourselves from feeling a little down, pick ourselves back up, and we feel more confident about the outlook on our lives, I think we're all in better positions when that happens. And that's what this book is all about. As someone who really struggled with my own decisions and got stuck in my thoughts and got stuck feeling bad about myself and feeling bad about how people were treating me, et cetera, et cetera. You know, I really, everything in here is how I kind of changed my perspective and changed my mindset and kind of attribute everything I have in my life today to the mindset I have changed over the years. And there's a lot of my stories, anecdotal stories, friends stories in here. And I really think you guys will enjoy it. And I appreciate you taking, giving it a shot.

And if you do read it, I'd love for you to review it and tag us and we'll share. Let's get to Jason. Jason. Nick. How's it going? Good, man. Welcome. Thank you.

Thanks for having me. I'm really glad you're here. Me too. First podcast. First podcast ever. Well, let's make it a good one. Well, hopefully not your last because if nothing else, we'd love to have you back. I'll maybe come.

We'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. Fine. Hard to get. How's your heart? I always like to start off these podcasts by asking just how you're doing, man. Yeah, that's a good question. My heart.

Where is my heart? I'm trying to find it. Okay. It's been a lot. Just this whole thing you know going through the filming of it all or i guess even pre-filming up to filming and then yeah getting home and being like what what the hell just happened and then watching it it's uh it's been a lot yeah i guess let's just you know as we always do with these type of uh conversations

let's start at the beginning uh i think people are always kind of fascinated to find out how a person like yourself, especially a person like yourself, found your way onto The Bachelor. Yeah, that's a good question. So my friend, who I still talk to, he nominated me for the show and I didn't think much of it. He called me one day.

He's like, hey, I nominated you. Like a buddy? Yeah, like a friend of mine. Okay. I was kidding. I'm sure that happens, but I really haven't heard that much. It's usually like my buddy's girlfriend or wife or something like that. Yeah, just a good friend of mine from childhood nominated me and called me. He's like, dude, I nominated you for the bachelor. I'd just gone through a breakup. And I honestly never thought about it more than that first day. You had gone through a breakup I'd just gone through a breakup and I honestly never thought about it more than that first day. You had gone through a breakup? I had gone through a breakup. Okay.

And I guess he was watching it and was like, I'm going to nominate Jason. And fast forward one year later, I get a call from The Bachelorette. I think I was at work and they basically were like, hey, are you single? Would you be interested in coming in and interviewing to be on the bachelorette and i was like are you joking is this a joke i mean i literally remember that conversation i had similar yeah very similar at first i thought it was fake yeah but they were like yeah come in meet with us and i was like why not i'll come in see what they have to say and um yeah i went in and and it just before i knew, they kind of offered me a spot on the show. Did you immediately say yes? Like once you decided to like go through the interview process,

were you pretty much like, hey, if they ask me, I'll do it? Or like, what was your kind of thought process as you went through the kind of interview or casting process? I was hesitant. I was super hesitant to do it. The whole time I was kind of going through each step being like, all right, I'll see what happens if I make it past this step and then this step. And as you know, there's like, you know, tons of steps to go through. Yeah. Yeah. It just kept progressing.

And, um, I kept an open mind. Um, I still had no idea who was going to be the bachelorette and, um, yeah, that was kind of the, what were, uh, there's always so many questions, but like, and I, I feel like at this point, it's always nice to hear people's kind of honest interpretations. Obviously, we had Eric's text messages that were released and talked about, but I also think people are kind of honest mindset in terms of what you thought might come from the show? And like, what were you thinking in terms of it being a show about love and what, what the possibilities look like? Like, what were you like, you know, like, what were you thinking about? Like, why were you saying yes to this experience? question. I think for a couple of different reasons up until I guess I found out it was going to be Gabby once the live show was announced. So I didn't even know if she was going to be the bachelorette until then. But up until then, I was like, honestly, like, I don't know why this is happening, but if I truly believe like the universe kind of has like a path for us. And I was like, all right, maybe I'm supposed to go on the show for some reason. And I truly didn't know why. And I was obviously open.

I was like, maybe I'm supposed to meet my person on the show. Maybe I'm supposed to go on the show to learn something about myself. I don't know. I just kind of went into it with an open mind. Yeah, you're just kind of open. So you're very open. Okay. So you went on.

I really want to ask you these questions because i i feel like the little bit i've talked to you before we're sitting down here and just watching you on the show you seem like an incredibly introspective person that really kind of you seem to really struggle throughout the process of like with with just whatever your mindset was while filming so i really kind of curious about you know when you first got there night one, like what did you, what were your observations about the show, the people around you, your peers, like what was going on in your mind as you were like there night one and you're seeing all these cameras, you see producers, you see cast people, you're meeting guys, like what were you thinking

and like how were you assessing your peers? What did you think of Gabby and Rachel? Like what was going on in your head? Yeah. And that night one was, uh, I honestly, I think the craziest night of my life. And I think I went into a crisis. The, there were so many things going through my mind. Um, first of all, like I've, I grew up, you know, the show was like always, you know, you hear about the bachelor, the bachelorette, but I, I never watched like a full season. I've seen like little clips of it if it's on and my family would be watching it. I'd come in and watch for five minutes, 10 minutes, and I didn't really think much of it. So I kind of honestly went in blind. I watched like a few clips of like seasons here and there right before i went but you didn't do any like recon of like actually sitting down no watching no and i didn't watch gabby season at all so i i went in totally cold which is my fault like looking do you regret that yeah totally i i wish i would have done the homework and and kind of i honestly i think what would have helped me the most is gone in and talked to people that have been on the show before yeah Yeah. And that was probably my biggest, uh, I think, you know, I asked myself,

as you say that, cause like, how would you, I mean, I guess you could DM people, but you're probably, I wish the show would make that more possible, but I also like get why they don't want to, because they might be afraid that you might back out not even back out or they will tell you like they like you confused you know the less you know you know and the more the more you might freak out so it's yeah it would probably have been nice obviously had you had a conversation with someone to get some insight but it's like to know that you didn't absolutely no research is kind of crazy to me and i can only imagine what your headspace would be like having very little information about like what was going on. Yeah, no, it was, it was, it was crazy. Yeah. Going into night one. I mean, like I, I was excited for it.

Um, I was obviously nervous. Um, I couldn't believe I was actually going to meet Gabby. And I think on top of it, like, you know, you start that night pretty late. And for the past five, six years, I've been waking up at 4am every day because I work East Coast hours on the West Coast. So. Okay. Yeah. How many times are you going to bed? Like 830. Okay. Yeah. It's crazy. Cause I work on like the New York Stock Exchange. So. Bravo. Yeah. You don't see a lot of that in The Bachelor. Yeah. Put it up for the real job. Yeah. Hey, college athlete, I think we, you know, we started that night and basically ended at seven in the morning. So my mind is already just like going crazy. I'm like, I'm supposed to be halfway through my day right now and I still haven't fallen asleep yet. So I started panicking because of that. But yeah, going in, there's just so much energy that first night. I think I was so starstruck, you know, with everything going, the cameras, the lights, walking out of the limo, seeing Gabby.

You keep saying Gabby. Now, is that because you had dated and formed a relationship with Gabby? Obviously there was another bachelorette there. Was it Gabby the whole time for you? Like what, what was your mindset going in knowing there were two bachelorettes? Yeah. I mean, going in, well, so I watched the last episode of her season, the finale. Okay. And I, yeah, that was when she was announced as the bachelorette. And I don't know, there was something about her watching it, even through the TV that I picked up on some kind of, I don't know, there was some kind of like spark that just really caught my eye. Like she was just very genuine and comfortable being herself no matter what, even through the TV, I could tell. So I kind of had it in my mind already that I was going to be more interested in her. Not,

you know, I think that's okay. You know? okay. Yeah. You're allowed to be interested in someone or someone else. Yeah. And then obviously you met Gabby. When did that, when was that confirmed, your assumptions once you met them? Was it kind of pretty instantly? When was the first time you sat down? Did you like, did you talk to both women the first night or was it just one, either of them? No, I actually, so i talked to them out

of the limo um which i don't remember i think i blacked out yeah um and then no i i was like i'm gonna sit by the fireplace i'm just gonna go chill over there for the rest of the night and uh yeah i think i sat there for the rest of the day. And you didn't talk to him? No, I didn't talk to him. You literally just sat on the tarp. Wow. I mean, knowing how it all works and knowing that you sat there, I'm almost surprised you didn't get sent home night one. Honestly, I was like...

You know what it was. You must have been Gabby's top two or three. I mean, I know how it works. And just having been The Bachelor, like you not being, the people who sit in the corner and hide, least favorite for a producer. You know, like that is not how you make good TV. The person who's just like, you know what, I'm not going to insert myself in conversations. I'm just going to like my own business. That doesn't necessarily make for good TV. but if you happen to be in their top two because like top five top six you know like it's usually that conversation if like early on and

it's just kind of like they'll like ask you like what do you think who you you know and again you're here to make tv you're also here to find love it's a it's a it's a conversation that goes on between lead and producer is your love story is a priority if you're gabby or rachel but like hey we have a tv show to make and so they're like well i like you if you're Gabby or Rachel, but like, Hey, we have a TV show to make. And so they're like, well, I like, you know, they're my six favorite. They're like, well, listen, there are at least favorite. So, um, you know, something like that. But, uh, just hearing that you sat in the corner and mind your own business and you even got through night one, you clearly must've been a favorite of Gabby's right from the jump. Uh, yeah, I would, I would assume so. Okay. And when I say that,

when did you think that maybe you felt like there was an instant connection between the two of you? I think, so we did have a couple times to talk before that one-on-one date. And I think one of the first times we spoke, actually, when I came out of the limo when I was going in the house,

I accidentally stepped on her foot. On Gabby's? Yeah, and she was like, ouch. And honestly, I was like, out of the limo when i was going in the house uh i accidentally stepped on her foot yeah yeah and she was like ouch and honestly i was like i'm i think i went into the bathroom and and was like are you kidding me the whole country is going to see me stepping on her foot and i did there yeah did they hear that i don't think i don't think anybody ever found out no i don't mean it yeah but i thought i love that you were panicked about that i i thought i was done i thought she was gonna send me home immediately i think i broke her toenail and then the next time i saw her the following morning she was like i was like hey i'm so sorry i stepped on your foot i hope it's okay

and like i i still don't know her you know and she's like well yeah you fucked it up and i was like oh shit like i i was i'm sorry i didn't know if she was kidding or like i didn't know her sense of humor um but obviously she was joking um but yeah i thought she was gonna send me home immediately were you the first one because i think there was a moment early on that you told rachel that you were there for gabby were you the first one to do that or or did we see that in order? Yeah, I think, um, yeah, I had had a conversation with Gabby and that's when I think I felt that spark with her and that connection. And, um, then, yeah, I think it, I think it was actually that night I went to Rachel

and said, Hey, like, I just want to be honest with you. I really feel a connection with Gabby and I didn't want to, you know, get into a weird situation. What was your read on, on some of the guys, uh, the first early on, like you seem like a little, again, a little bit, I know you that I, it might, it seems like your problem was, was you're kind of almost too real. It almost seems like where to have success in the show and by success, I mean, like even a chance to even find love you, you have to suspend, you know, like reality a little bit. Yeah. Uh, but what were, uh, what were your, what was your view and some of your peers and how did that play a role on how you thought you should act, uh, relative to how they act?

Because if for me, that kind of played a role too. Like, cause sometimes you, you pick up on things where it's just like, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, but they seem like they're in on it or they're kind of talking out of their ass or like saying things that don't make sense to me. Yeah. Like I just got here and I remember like one guy night one saying he was already developing feelings.

And I was like, that can't be possible. Yeah, totally. Like what was your read on some of the guys from your season? Yeah, I was just so confused night one i heard guys saying they were already falling in love i heard guys like talking about their future wife and i i truly i i remember going into interviews and just being like what what is actually happening like are these guys like just be honest with me like are you guys giving them some kind of water with like heart emoji icons in them that I'm not

getting? Like, cause I, I truly was trying to figure out, are these guys really like falling in? Do they really, is it happening? And it's just not happening to me on night one. Like, is there something wrong with me? And so I was just like, damn, all right, well, I guess this works faster for some people than others. I'm curious because I think it was kind of controversial to have two bachelorettes and there was a lot of talk about whether or not they were pitting women against each other. Did you feel like the kinds of interview questions you were being asked or like the kinds of conversations men were having off camera aligned with that of women being pitted against each other? Or was it pretty people picked a camp and moved on from there?

That's a good question. I think, no, I don't think the women were pitted against each other or was it pretty people picked a camp and moved on from there? That's a good question. I think, no, I don't think the women were pitted against each other at all. I think honestly it was kind of just like a free for all and there was no, absolutely no rules. And you know, that went for the girls and the guys. So it was kind of, yeah, just like, here's the situation, what are you going to do with it? And everyone had different, you know, ways they were going to handle it and some handled it more poorly than others, I think. When did things start to like, at least a little bit change for you in terms of you at least like considering a relationship with Gabby or, you know, or did it ever change for you? Oh yeah. Like I, what do you mean by considering a relationship?

Well, I mean by relationship, and I guess that maybe leads us to questions later, but at first, everything just seemed like a TV show, it sounds like to you. And at some point, it sure seemed like you and Gabby were having a connection. And while you might've been struggling to figure out what this was, there was something there. And when was that moment for you? I think probably the peristate was was a big big night for us the thing that i struggled with the most on the show i like you said like i maybe was too real i took it very seriously and like i i think basically when i was with gabby like i felt something very real and i didn't want the show to kind of overshadow or like take anything away from that

relationship yeah that that we did have because i've genuinely felt something that i haven't felt in a long time with her yeah i think when i when especially with dating when i date like i like to just go all in and kind of like lay everything out and like be vulnerable and open and that's what i was really struggling with was on the show like if it was a safe place to be vulnerable. Exactly. So that's, that's why I was, I was truly struggling. And when, when I kind of would say like, I'm, you know, these cameras, the microphones, I'm uncomfortable. Like it wasn't the cameras and the microphone. Like it was more so I'm, there's so much that I want to do, like say in a normal relationship and like be open about things that I want to tell like say in a normal relationship and like be open about things that

I want to tell Gabby directly instead of the entire world and that's where you know I guess again it's my fault for not just doing it and not being open but like you know there's so much stuff that I just wanted to be like hey like this you know it's it's private stuff to me that I would typically tell somebody that i didn't want to share with the world so i mean i have to ask this is an abc the bachelor but it is a podcast and the world will hear it and we are talking about regret is there anything that like you said like had you watched it before you might have changed your approach is there anything that you now wish you you would share here that you would have liked to have shared with Gabby as you went through the

process as opposed to something that like maybe you realized you didn't need to be so closed off like what would be something you'd want to share with her yeah I mean I don't think there's anything in particular like that comes to mind but like throughout the whole thing I remember just battling that it was just like a constant battle with myself of being like honestly like watching it back like it was hard for me to watch myself in what way because that's i just that's just not who i just don't think i was like i'm like that like i was like i felt like a different person in that environment okay you didn't feel like watching it there wasn't a fair accurate representation of yourself no and like i think it's you know but it sounds like it was more like you take ownership of that it's not like you're blaming anyone like, I think it's, you know, but it sounds like it was

more like you take ownership of that. It's not like you're blaming anyone else. It's not, it's not, it was because in that environment, I truly just, I was so taken back by everything and I was trying to be so real in an, in an environment that is, that didn't feel safe to me, I guess. You obviously talked about therapy. You're one of the first, I think, men on the franchise. I mean, I'm sure it's been maybe talked about before, but I feel like not as much. But to say inner child feels kind of like,

not just like I go to therapy, like getting into it. But yeah, you came across as someone who's authentically been through it. I got the impression that you had, like there was a, you know, like watching it back, I just, like I really the impression that you had, like, there was a, you know, like, watching it back, I just, like, I really felt connected to you in a way where I felt like you had experienced some disappointment or sadness or pain, whether it's relationships or life. And whether that was the reason you got therapy or not, I don't know. But you seemed, and maybe that what you're talking about in terms of wanting to feel safe and not sure if this world was an environment to feel safe in, what was your reasoning for talking about therapy? How did you get into it in the first place? Because I think it's something that I think we need to normalize more with men and feel comfortable about opening up and talking about whether they experience sadness or heartbreak in relationships and finding the strength to openly communicate that on a national platform and to normalize that.

What was the reason that you felt comfortable the little bit you did share about yourself to share that? Yeah, I don't know. With therapy, I guess it goes back kind of after college. I guess the way, the first time, I was in a long relationship and I think we went through a lot was back kind of after college I guess the way the first time I was in a long relationship and I think we went through a lot of pretty like challenging I guess life like not in the

relationship but you know personal challenges in life what do you call that adversity adversity like yeah just you know with with and we kind of bonded over that kind of stuff and um i think in a way it almost turned from like a romantic relationship to like a feeling of safety kind of almost codependent a little bit a little codependent maybe and then yeah like after we broke up it was um i i don't think i've ever been my lowest that i was then and i just felt felt completely lost. And I just, this was when I was, you know, 22 years old and, um, I had never heard of really been to there, heard of going to therapy or anything. And somebody was like, honestly, I think Jason, you should talk to a therapist. And I, yeah, I ended up going to a therapist for the first time. And, um, we went, I think I went

for like a month straight and she was basically like, wow, like I've truly never seen somebody improve so much in such a short time than I've seen with you. And why do you think that was? I truly think it was because of the things that I was, I was battling, whether it was like anxiety or like, you know, intrusive thoughts or whatever it could have been. I, I, I truly just didn't know or have the tools to kind of cope and deal with that kind of stuff. Were you, again, I see parallels between yourself and myself, but like, I struggle with like rumination and overthinking. And if you don't have an outlet, you just, yeah, it just circles and stays with you. And like, did, when you went to therapy, did you feel

like you were just almost able to like turn the valve and there's a bunch of pressure, like just was released? Well, yeah, it was, I mean, it was just validating. Um, it was just validating, um, in a way that like, this isn't you, this is what's happening. This is why you have anxiety. This is what anxiety is. This is, this is what it means. And this is how you can get rid of it. This is what you do. And like, as soon as I learned that, like it was, I was a completely different person. And then basically I, I, you know, I was like, holy shit, this is what I needed. And I kind of went for another month or something and then totally disregarded it and stopped going to therapy for a while. And then before I knew it, I was in another relationship.

And I think I let a lot of stuff kind of just like build up again. And then after we broke up, it was another, just a heart wrenching breakup. And that's, that's when I was like, all right, I think I need to take therapy pretty seriously. And yeah, I went back and that's when i discovered inner child work and um that like i said on the show it really has just changed my life are you still going in therapy ongoing yeah so i mean for for years for the past two three years now i've been going very consistently it's truly i mean it's turned me yeah like it's like 360 and you had like a therapist waiting for you on standby when you got off the show oh yeah she, she was on standby at the airport with a sign. I mean, truly I wish I, I mean, I'm in therapy now every week, every other week, but like, I wish literally I had that when I got off

the show, like on standby. And the show was good about that. They, they actually went, they kind of made sure that I had somebody set up and I already have somebody, but they. Yeah, they're better than they used to be. Yeah, that is for sure. So let's get in the meat of it. Obviously, as things progressed towards the end, so much of this season with both Gabby and Rachel was about this reluctance to get engaged. But with two bachelorettes, I think people underestimate just how much little time you all had and just how much little time we all have in that world. But I'm curious, if you were to add up the hours that you've actually had time speaking with Gabby, how many hours do you think you had spoken with Gabby and spent with Gabby

one-on-one prior to spending the night with Gabby off camera? Which we never did actually spend the night with each other. You didn't? No, we didn't. But the night with each other. No, we didn't, but we talked for a while. I'll get into that later. I'm sorry.

What was the question? How many hours do you think you spent with her? In my mind, it wasn't enough, but if you did some quick math, Oh man, I don't know. 10,

less than 10, less than 10. I don't know. No, I mean, I just want you to act we'll let it you know to take some time think about how many hours but like you know for all the people who are just like what the fuck man you know what you signed up for blah blah blah blah i'm just like how many hours did you speak with gabby before you were expected to get engaged yeah i mean i i don't know how the

show usually works but but I think, especially with two bachelorettes, we, our time was extremely limited. It felt like. How many hours did your one-on-one last? A few hours. Yeah. One hour. Yeah. Usually they, usually, and it was, usually it's a good six to seven hours. I think, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. So yeah, less than 10 hours. So you're So you spent less than 10 hours, give or take with Gabby and you're going into this final date. You're obviously at what point here, actually what I'm curious about, there's always this point in a season where you realize like shit's getting real. Like earlier, early on for me, I remember, I remember meeting Andy, remember being excited, excited about her, liking her. I had an early

date after the first date. I was like, I really liked this girl. But like, I remember being excited about her, liking her. I had an early date. After the first date, I was like, I really like this girl. But like, I remember having a conversation, I'm like, I like her, but like, I'm not engaged in like seven weeks, you know? Like, and I remember them being like, don't worry about it. Like, that's like, that's, and truthfully they were right. They're like, shit just happens fast in this world, whatever. And then like, for me that it was true.

I was like, you know what, fuck it, I'm all in. But at what point for you, because it seemed like from watching it back, you were like, all right, I'm here, I'll go along with it. And then things, obviously the intensity changes, right? There's always this point where it's like down to the final five or six people before hometowns. And then the, I'm falling, I'm starting to fall in love,

I'm falling in love, I'm in, I'm starting to fall in love. I'm falling in love. I'm in love. Always kind of happens on certain beats. Did you notice that? And what was that experience like for you? And did you think that the intensity was shifting up and how did that impact how you felt about the experience? Totally. Yeah. I definitely could feel that from other guys. I would hear it around the house already before we left for, you know, Europe that some of the guys were like, this is my future wife. Like, this is my, I'm in love. And for me, like I said, like I truly was taking this as real as I could.

I don't know. We had that one-on-one date in Paris and that was kind of our first time to actually just have time away from the house away from the craziness and i think yeah we definitely formed like a unique connection that night it was something that i i think i was in shock that it could actually kind of happen in that environment um but then again like it was our first date like it was a you know at that point, like I was like, okay, I have hope in this. Like this could actually lead to something. And then before I knew it, you know, our next date was hometowns. So our second day, she's meeting my family, which in the real world, like obviously that doesn't

happen on the second date. Usually it's not for me. And I was, that's, that's where I think a lot of people say like, why is Jason on the show? He's not even going to get engaged. Like what's he doing? And I don't know if it came across on TV or not, but kind of what I was telling my mom was like in this moment, like on our second date, I just want to let you know that like, I feel something very real with Gabby, but I am just not at a point right now on after two dates where I could see myself get engaged. And I was very open to it, but I was being real about it. And then I followed up with, you know, to my mom, I was like, maybe in two weeks, you know? And that's when she kind of

like broke down and, you know, got sad because she, she loved her. She thought we were great together. And she was just like, she could tell how distracted I was with everything going on. And she didn't want me to lose something good just because of the environment I was in. But a common thing that I keep hearing is like, Jason, why are you on the show if you're not going to get engaged?

And I was completely, I had an open mind to it the entire time. I just was, I guess, being too real about it. I was hoping I could get to a point, but I thought, I didn't realize we wouldn't have as much time together as we had. Yeah. I mean, listen, I think that's the challenge that they had with having two Bachelorettes. And then like, I know this is because I've been on a handful of seasons and so I'm aware of the time, but like, there's always a struggle, right? But I think, you know, again, they care about love. They also are making a TV show.

And I think in my personal opinion, having two bachelorettes, I think they were forced to focus on more of the TV show than love and relied on the organic pressure that all you will feel of, you know, hey, you're supposed to, you know, again, like your mom didn't apply deliberate pressure on you, but indirectly that's a bit of pressure of like, you know, well,

I don't want to lose something special to me and to lose, to not lose something special. Do I have to get engaged? What does that look like? That's a really fucked up position to be in. And I think having two bachelorettes made again, like having such limited time, cutting that in half and then expecting these people to just throw caution to the wind. I mean, like having two bachelorettes, it made the bachelorette or bachelor or whatever you want to call it, be more like, you know, love at first sight where they got engaged before like knowing each other. Do you mean love is blind? No. Well, love is blind, I guess the no what's well love is blind i guess too you don't know someone but there's another show where like literally married at

first sight and they're just like get fucking married it's just like fuck it let's just let's just go for it i mean it became a little bit more like that rather than what the bachelor historically has been and i think it's just uh i think it's important to like just consider that when when wondering like why these people sign up for what they did yeah and like you know I I get that question a lot I've seen it online I've seen it I'm people ask me in person like why were you on the show like were you gonna get engaged like why if it was so out of your comfort zone like or whatever and um first of all you don't know what it's gonna be like till you're actually on the show and second of all like i was there for a

real relationship honestly like i thought i could get there with gabby and like i i kept staying there for her and i did you know um contemplate leaving but i've kept feeling something real and real with her so i was like trying to use these tiny little windows that i got with her to develop these feelings you know when you heard some of these other guys talking about love and they're the one, and clearly you two had a connection. And at least for me, like I knew I had a connection with Andy and I could like sense like which guys hadn't, A, were even getting time, as much time as I was getting. And then other guys were just like, I mean, like you, you haven't even been on a date with her. Did that play a role? And did their level of inauthenticity, because I'm just going to like, I don't think everyone who goes on that show

is very sincere, spoiler alert, but did that affect you? Did that get in your head as well in terms of how they were, or were you able to separate that? I was in my head about that. I, you know know i try not to think about what people are going to think about me but it's impossible to think about that but i was thinking like shit like everybody's gonna think you know since i'm not like saying i love you yet or like maybe gabby's thinking if i don't say i love you yet or like where where am i gonna come off as somebody who is avoidant you know and which i i'm i don't consider myself to be but like i you know on it from a tv perspective people judge you kind of based on what's around you yeah you can you kind of compare so i was like

well shit like he's already saying i'm falling in love with you he's already saying he can see kids with her he can already see you know his rest of the rest of his life with her. And like, here I am just like being like, I'm just trying to form a genuine connection. And it did add like some sort of like, is there, maybe there's something wrong with me? Like what's wrong with me? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting how that world, I mean, when you're in that bubble, like, I'm going to, I appreciate your openness just because I think people are always kind of interested in the psychology of the show. And I think you're someone who, through your kind of earnestness of wanting to what should I do? What should I say? Other people. I mean, I think there's a spectrum of intentions in terms of people going on. But I think, you know, hearing your experience really paints an accurate picture of how this world, you know, because it's a social experiment. How can it, like, how it plays a role in the decision-making process when you're considering how this impacts your actual life.

and the decision-making process when you're considering how this impacts your actual life, because for people who actually get in a relationship, as we saw, obviously with Tino and Rachel, like this bleeds out into your own personal life outside of a TV show. Exactly. And that's, that's what, that's what I was struggling with the most, honestly, because, you know, a lot of people are like, what are you doing on the show? Like what, like you're, I don't know, you almost get characterized. And I found it really hard to, you know, to go into a relationship that I, or basically to not be authentic about it and make sure that there was a solid foundation under us before, you know, and, and that's kind of where I struggled. Interesting. All right. So fantasy suite night, that's kind of like your

exit. What did you guys talk about? You, you? You didn't spend the whole night. And I guess that, you know, we, we had that conversation. I told my mom that, and then we, we really didn't have, I heard Gabby talking about this actually on another podcast, which is true. Like we didn't have a good space to sit down and just have like an open and honest discussion about where we stood until that next date in, um, in Mexico. So the next time I saw Gabby after that second date with my family was our third date in Mexico. So that's fantasy suite night. So this is our, you know.

So I, you know, that tennis date and then the, what did we do? We went in the pool and swam. I was truly trying to utilize that time as best as I could to further see if I could get to that point to, you know, potentially get engaged to her. And then we had that discussion that night where I kind of just told her like, Hey, Gabby, like, I want to be as honest as I can with you. Like, I'm, you know, I'm just not there yet. And, you know, I think another thing people keep asking me is, um, if you're such a realist, why,

why are you on the show? And that back like i i think what i was trying to say is like i'm very intentional instead of a realist like i i don't do things and say things just to say them like when i say something i mean it and i i think i felt that in gabby too like she's the realest person i've ever ever dated and you know, I just wanted to be on the same page as her. Did you guys have conversations about life outside of the show? Because it seems, it's almost like a heartbreaking story. You know, like, again, I don't know where you are now. You have nothing but obviously nice things to say about Gabby, but it sounds like it was a really great connection that didn't get a chance to flourish, not as a fault of yours or Gabby's, but just the product of the situation. Like, you know, like you didn't, you didn't get a chance to flourish, not as a fault of yours or Gabby's, but just the

product of the situation. It wasn't your decision to meet on the bachelorette. I mean, indirectly, but it wasn't your guys' decision to have two bachelorettes and have just less time. Did you guys have conversations about how you guys would operate in the real world? What were some of those conversations that you, where you guys couldn't connect in the, in the conversation that night? Yeah. Um, we didn't really have that many conversations about the real world. We were kind of just going in there and I don't really want to get into like personal details of, of the conversation, but basically what it was, was us just kind of going back and forth and like, like trying to figure out where each of us stood

in a way for the first i mean we talked for a few hours okay and we're just kind of like nothing was getting accomplished um we were just kind of going back and forth and and like i think unfortunately we were just on two completely different timelines i maybe wasn't as far along as i wanted to be at that point and i was trying to get there but i just truthfully i i wasn't there far along as I wanted to be at that point. And I was trying to get there, but I just, truthfully, I wasn't there. And it was just, yeah, it was just a shitty situation. And I honestly, I'm still a little confused of like how it ended and like how all this before I knew it, like it was the morning and I hadn't, I literally, so we talked for a few hours and then we went to our separate, we basically, we basically broke up in the fantasy suite and

we went our separate ways we slept in our own rooms and then when you saw me the following morning i was so overwhelmed and in shock by everything that had happened that um and we had already kind of gone through everything so when you saw me in the morning i was just like i hadn't slept all night i was totally distraught and seeing her again, just, I was kind of speechless. And that's why it kind of came off like in a, I, I've heard cold or whatever, but like, I was truly just like a zombie. Yeah, no, I get that. Did it feel at the time like it was engagement or a bust for Gabby? No, I think we were just trying to figure out, like, we, we were just talking about like really just trying to get on on the same page of you know seeing where where we stood yeah but like where were you guys standing like i just i i wasn't any you know i wasn't fully in love and like it's hard for me to commit to a relationship when i don't have a solid foundation because like you said this isn't it's not just a

show like this is for real and like because so i'm sounding it sounds like almost that maybe it wasn't engagement or bus but gabby needed to hear that you were further along emotionally than you were or for as far as long as say maybe eric was or some of these other guys for you to for her to consider keeping you around exactly like and and yeah at the end of the day, I felt something so real with Gabby, and one thing we were talking about in the fantasy suite was like, what if we did meet outside of this? Would it be different?

And we just kind of kept going back and forth with that, like would, maybe this would work, maybe, and then it would go, maybe this wouldn't work. And we were just kind of going back and forth on that. And I think it was just like a product of the environment, like for me. Gabby on the show kind of famously said that you let her on. Do you feel like you let her on or do you feel like that was product of the moment? Yeah. She, she said that. Um, and I, I have so much empathy for her because watching it back and like even just seeing what she went through, I truly cannot imagine the stress and how fragile of an

environment and complex everything she's dealing with. And for me to add any stress to that just absolutely kills me and any hurt that I caused to her. I truly feel, you know, awful for that. And I'm sure you can kind of relate to that at being the bachelor of how, how intensive of, because it's intense for the contestants, but she's dealing with 15 relationships or whatever it is. But yeah, in terms of leading her on, that's something, you know, that she did truly feel, I guess. And I, again, like I, I was just trying my best to get to a place where we could leave there together. And unfortunately in her eyes, like she did see that. I don't know, for me, like I was, yeah, I don't know. I was just trying to be as real as I could.

One thing I forgot to ask you. And so we're kind of backtracking a little bit, but again, someone who struggled with just answering the question, is this world real? You know, are these people being real? There's also Gabby and Rachel, like the leads, right? Did you have any questions or fears? Again, not knowing anything about Gabby or Rachel,

not knowing anything about this world. You didn't do your homework, et cetera, et cetera. Did you spend any time before you really got to know Gabby, like even wondering or worrying about her authenticity because of the environment? I think, I mean, even watching her on TV, I knew she was very genuine and very real. And it did take me, honestly, probably like 10, 11 days into even maybe more to realize that to separate the tv show from the relationship it was such a foreign concept to me dating inside of a tv show inside

of the simulation that's what i kept calling it yeah and yeah i mean i was i don't i was skeptical like not of their authenticity or anything but just of the whole concept as a whole. I don't mean it as a criticism for Gabby or Rachel, but putting yourself in that shoes, you're just like, I don't know. Yeah, I didn't know what they were, I don't know, I guess I was kind of questioning, are they really looking to fall in love?

What's going on here? It took me a while, and then the first time that I realized, holy is real this is actually real is when gabby came back from the date with nate that she broke up with him and started crying and she came back to us and i was like holy like she really has real feelings for us and she truly does care about us and that honestly that was the day that just switched my whole mentality on the whole thing and was like this is this is actually real yeah but yeah up until that point it was it was a really hard concept for me to grasp of like two leads contestants like coming together yeah to find love do you uh i mean that's kind of a weird question to ask given the current situation but

do you find have you did you ever find yourself from the time you left and even until now to wondering, had you had more time with Gabby, if things would be different? Totally. Yeah. I mean like after, I mean, after I got home from Mexico, I was in a dark place. I don't think I could, I don't think I could like leave my house for like, like two weeks. Cause I was just like, first of all, I i was like what the hell just happened i it all happened so quick and then our breakup was heart-wrenching and just having literally that replayed in my head for every single day for for like two weeks at least and um i was questioning everything i was questioning because you go you can't go back. You know, I'm assuming she's with Eric at this point or maybe Johnny, I actually didn't know who was left and yeah, I got home and I was just, I was in such, I was just trying to process everything that happened. And I was like,

I don't know. She's like, did I fuck up? I know you guys live in somewhat proximity with one another. Did you ever consider reaching out or were you tempted to do that given or or were you ever worried about just running into her yeah totally yeah we i think we live pretty close to each other and yeah i don't know i kind of was hoping it was the it was the weirdest thing like going through such an intense and even traumatic experience together and then breaking up, you're not only going through a breakup, but you're also going through this insane experience together.

And then not being able to get any closure on that to sort out what actually happened. Because like when you go through a breakup anytime, like in the real world, you need time to like process it and then potentially go back and like clarify some things. Have a couple follow-up questions.

Follow-up questions. Exit interview. Let me circle back on that. And then, yeah, in this environment, you can do that. So there was every single day I wanted to kind of bump into her and just get some closure or like talk things through. And I mean, yeah, it was insanely hard. After experiencing that relationship and learning about yourself

through the whole show process, what's the number one thing you want to cultivate in your next relationship yeah i think the whole experience really did i'm still trying to figure out why i went on the show but i think i've definitely learned a lot about myself um one of those things being just really i don't know it really has opened my eyes and like i went into the show kind of, um, I've been single for a few years now and I was like, yeah, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be. But all you talk about during that entire show is your feelings for, you know, weeks over weeks, you're talking and just being so vulnerable and which you never do in real life. So it was

almost like when I got home, like I almost wanted my friends to be in my family and be like, Jason, how are you feeling? Like, tell me about your feelings, you know? And like, it was like, I got so used to just expressing myself all the time. It was kind of therapeutic in that way. So I think in my next relationship, it's just, yeah, I want to be almost over communicative, you know, over communicate how I feel about certain things and just share kind of everything with each other. I think it really opened my eyes to that. Yeah. Do you see yourself ever going back? Obviously, there's always paradise. I mean, as someone who seemed to really struggle with this process, it would be understandable if you're like, nah, I'm good. But I could also see a world where you're like, all right, well, listen, this was my headspace going in. I now know how this works and I'm not going to necessarily change who I am and I'm still going to be as intentional and authentic as I need to be. But now I understand this world, right? And you can at least maybe give into the world a little

bit because again, I don't feel like I ever was inauthentic, but I definitely chose to accept the world I was in and I was willing to take a little bit more risks and my feelings were always genuine, but to get to that genuine place, I had to let go and stop asking myself so many questions. And I can debate whether that was smart or not, but it certainly allowed me to embrace an experience. Are you open to at least considering embracing that experience in the future if the opportunity presents itself? I know it's a long way away, a year away. You might be in a relationship by then, but as it stands now, would you consider that possibility in the future?

Yeah. I mean, going back after I've lived through it all, I'm the kind of person that when I go into a situation that's new, I have to sit back a little bit like I did and learn and observe the room and try to figure out everything that's going on before I like dive head into something. So that took me probably half the show to figure out like what, what is actually happening here. And then like, I think by the time that I got to the point where I was like, okay, like this is real, this can happen. Let's dive in head first. It was already fantasy suites. It was over. And that's the thing that sucked the most for me was like going back. I wouldn't sit at that fireplace that first night and observe everything.

It's not like I was like too shy to like do it. You know, I I'm definitely not a shy person. I'm not like reserved in, in, in that sense. Like when I see something, I go after it, but I'm typically, like I said, I, i i if i did it again i would now know the ropes and i would that night one i would start that relationship that night yeah it's like you you you try to take your time and assess in a world that you had no time i i had no time and and that's just how i am as a person like i like to figure out every little detail every little thing going on and then like i dive head in and go after what I want. And that was me like, you know, I guess like a hometown fantasy suites, you know, which was way too late.

So doing it again. Yeah. Like I kind of wish I could do it again and just like dive head in first, first night. Because now I know what I'm dealing with. Yeah. Well, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I know what I'm dealing with. Yeah. Well, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Like right now I'm,

yeah, I'm just, I'm at a point where I'm truly just like focused on like healing and getting back to the place where I was and yeah, learning from it all. And I don't know, I'd never say never, I guess with. Where would you consider yourself on the healing path percentage wise? Like in terms of your, like your emotional health, where is it now versus where it was before you went on the show? I think there's just so many elements of the show that you have to heal from. Like I said, not only are you going through this like crazy heartbreak, but you're also going through an insane experience, which takes a lot of time to process and heal from. And like every single day, like I'll literally be sitting there at work right now.

And all of a sudden I flash back to fantasy suites and like, it just plays over in my head, like that conversation we had, and then like trying to remember things that like all of a sudden I met talking to her on the couch and that all day is just playing through my head. And like, I don't know what that is, like,

but it's just, I'm, I'm trying to get to a point where I'm just can, can like process everything that happened and kind of move on. Yeah. I want to ask you a question. I understand that Gabby is in a relationship with Eric and we respect that. So this is not really about like any tea or anything like that, but I'm getting the impression from you that all things being equal without being disrespectful or anything like that. Like you, it almost sounds like like even to this day you could really use a cup of coffee with gabby totally i mean and like no disrespect to eric i think after you go through such an intense experience with somebody like that but also you break up with them like i was hoping to get some closure with her after the rose but unfortunately as you saw there was some wwe moments that had took up all the time but um that didn't happen so i think yeah like as you know human beings it would be very healing for both of us to at least like talk it over over a cup of coffee and and like i yeah it's just such a weird situation but what's a question you'd want to ask

her i don't think there's anything in particular i think it's just like a weird situation. But what's a question you'd want to ask her? I don't think there's anything in particular. I think it's just like kind of like getting closure and, you know, walking through what actually happened and explaining things. And I did reach out to her a while ago, you know, and kind of let her know how I felt and how hard it was and all that kind of stuff. But did you hear from her? I have not. No, it's understandable.

But yeah, it just I think it would be healing as humans. Do you think if you were emotionally there, do you think there was a chance? Do you feel, did you feel like, and again, this is no disrespect to anyone else, but I'm just asking about how you felt in the moment. Did you feel like you were Gabby's front runner having that conversation with her?

And then if you could get to a place that she needs you to be, you'd be in a very different position than you are now. I mean, I don't know. Like I, I felt like I had that. We had a very, very strong connection. I don't know. I truly never asked her what her other relationships were like. I never, um, asked the producers really I never kind of questioned it so like I was solely focused on us yeah um so I I don't know how I compare it to how are you able to do that because I don't think most people are able to do that do you think that speaks to the level of confidence you have in yourself or like or or maybe you weren't even in a position to even consider other guys because you weren't even sure how you felt about her which which which do you think it was more of i i think it probably comes from a place of just taking it

and making it as close to a real relationship that i could because in my head the whole concept was just as insane so just keeping her and i separate from everything was the only way that i could kind of process things and yeah like i i guess it maybe comes from a place of confidence of just trusting that we had something real and like the roses and stuff. Like to me it was, I, I don't know. I just, I, I didn't really get tripped up by them. I, the whole time was just kind of banking on the connection that we had and trying to run with that and seeing what it could turn into. I don't know if your DMs are open quite yet, but once they are, I feel like there might be people interested in, and I'd love for you to describe for us your perfect first date. My perfect first date?

In the real world. Yeah. We'll get a little light here. Perfect first date. Probably driving down the PCH, listening to some uh what were you listening to i was listening to lover by taylor swift on the way up here okay well i don't know play going maybe play play a little tennis have some drinks what's just have fun what would uh favorite first date questions like what are you trying to learn about the person you're on a date with on the first date like what's's your priority? First dates, I think for me, it's just no expectations. It's

just kind of like getting to know the person and seeing how they kind of hold themselves and yeah, just having fun. Like you can instantly tell when you're with somebody, like, is this going to work or not? I think. And yeah, it's just kind of getting to know that person and seeing how much fun you have with them. Do you have any non-negotiables that uh just aren't for you when it comes to dating yeah i definitely do smacking smacking gum they smack you yeah no no like food i knew what he meant how many times you've been hit jason yeah not just hit smack specifically like that yeah i can't stand that that's a non-negotiable yeah i feel like it's perfect person walks in she crushes it oh my first date you like you're you're you're you're just connecting emotionally you find her physically attractive she's making

you laugh it's great and day two she's got a wad of big leech you're gonna shut it down yeah yeah i don't believe that that sounds more like a pet peeve to me i don't know yeah it's probably a pet peeve yeah wait okay what halloween costume that you've had are you most proud of oh that's a good question i was elvis how long ago i think i was like 11 oh. You might want to bring it back. I could see you looking like a pretty good Elvis. Bring back Elvis. Maybe this year. It's next month. Well, it would be culturally topical with the movie.

The movie just came out. Yeah. I don't know if you could top Austin Butler, though. Well, what's his name is going to try? The guy from Euphoria. Oh, Jacob. Jacob Lorde. Is he playing Elvis?

He got cast to play Elvis in a different role. Yeah. Any thoughts on that? I think Austin crushed it. I'm from Memphis, so I have a bias. I grew up with Elvis my whole life. Not him, but like around me. Yeah. He's not dead. Yeah. And yeah, I think he crushed it. So for anybody to play it better than him besides me at Halloween this year will be tough. All right. Well, Jason, are you down to do some texting office hours and give some people texting advice? 100%. Great. And then when we come back, we'll get Jason's thoughts on AFR with Rachel and Tino to close it out. How's it going? Hi, I'm Elizabeth. I'm 33 years old. Hi, Elizabeth. How can we help?

So I'm in physical therapy right now and my PT is really cute. And I was listening to the ASNIC and the chiropractor update. And I don't know if this is a thing, but I thought maybe we could do a redemption because I would love to shoot my shot at the end of my sessions with him. Oh, I bet you would. Yeah. Are we sure that they are not in a relationship like our last person was? Yes, I am sure. He has told me that he's single, that he's like trying to date and that he

wants to meet someone in real life. I was like, oh, don't we all? So, and I feel like I don't know if we have like a flirty vibe or like, I think a little bit. It's her HIPAA rules. Yeah. I think she's allowed to divulge her own medical history. Is PT part of HIPAA? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

We don't know. Well, I'm here. Do you mean like in terms of like, is it like a violation of his duties as a physical therapist too? Oh, it is. Oh,

well, cause I know if it's like a doctor, I know like I hit, like I did a questions with Nick and someone asked the question about their doctor and I got a bunch of DMs being like, that's not okay. You can't do that. But I don't know. Maybe PTs fall under a different umbrella than, uh, I don't know. And like, obviously, obviously there's been like no line crossing here, but I was thinking like has to come from me and I would do it at the end of my sessions. You want to do it in person? Well, I think I have to, because I, after the chiropractor episode, I was like,

oh, maybe I could see if I can find him on Instagram. And I could not. You could not. Okay. Just a couple, like, you know, like, let's just get this. Are you prepared to see if, how good is he at physical therapy? Like, is he irreplaceable? No, I mean, that could... I could never see him again and that'd be fine. Just so you know, if you went on a date with him, he's going to know that your first response is like,

no, of course he's not that special. He's just stretching me. Okay, so you can find someone else. What do you know about him? I know that he's a few years younger than me and he's single. He's like, he said like, he seems like he has a lot of good friends in the city we

live in. He really loves music. So we've talked about that and like different concerts and he seems like pretty active and so am I. So I don't know, we have like a fun vibe and I mostly like meeting people off of dating apps right now. So like, I think I know enough about him that I would be interested in like asking him out. What would you love to say to him? Like, what do you think? Like before we start mouthing off, like, I'm curious, what is your, you're in, you're, you're getting worked on, uh, session's ending. What, how would you like to approach this? Well, I had a thought because I don't know if this is a thing for men, but you guys tell me as experts, but I think sometimes women say yes to things if they're uncomfortable in person. And like, I don't want to put pressure on him.

And also it's his workplace. So I feel like, I don't know if I should like actually say this out loud. Okay. But if this were like a romance novel and you can say whatever you wanted, what would you say? Oh my gosh. He'd be like, it would be inappropriate. He used to touch me a lot during the session. Is it getting hot and heavy during PT? I mean, in a way that like my muscles are being repaired, but like it is a hands-on type of thing. Okay. But in all seriousness, how would you shoot your shot? I think like we would just be like talking and joking around about something. And I would say, we should go do that. There's this really cool bar that has live music that I want to go check out that I feel

like that would be really fun to go do. So we could grab a drink and then go to that. We both like music. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I think I agree with you that being a little too direct might just make it uncomfortable for him. And you're running the risk of getting an authentic answer like you're suggesting. So I think as much as you can to try to make it seem like you're just like two people potentially hanging out.

Right. Like, I don't even think it's all that bad if he's not sure if he's actually even saying yes to a date. And then you just kind of know that going in. Just know that like, hey, he might he might just be coming in with a casual. And then once you get him on the date, then you can make it pretty clear that you're going to treat it as a date. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Does that make sense? Yeah, or like if we like text before maybe or something. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to like bamboozle him into this date. Ambush. Listen, I don't think you should be so vague or cryptic. I mean, he's an adult person, but I think you could NPT, right? Like you said, think of something that you would want to do.

Maybe there's this new place you want to go to. Maybe there's a show that you're interested in. I don't know. And you can say something like, he's working on it. You'd be like, oh, maybe it's something as simple as bowling or roller skating roller skating i'm a love good roller skate you know pastime i'm fucking good at it so i like to practice beforehand but whatever an environment you feel comfortable maybe it's even mini golf like it really doesn't matter what it is and then you say while you're doing pt be like there's this place i've always wanted to check out but i can't get any of my friends to

go with me okay and and see what he says and we'd be like would you be interested in going and just kind of casual like hey like you just thought of it right then and there because like you know and just popped in my mind his vibe and then you're just kind of like no seriously like if you would like to go like I'd love to go with you and then like if you and then if you go like again if it's mini if it's you two mini golf then if you go, again, if it's you two mini golfing, if it's you two bowling, if it's you two roller skating, if it's you two having drinks, that's... And then maybe there, at the end of a date, if it's going well,

you can say, I'll be honest, I always thought you were cute and blah, blah, blah. And I'm glad you said yes because I'm having a good time. If it's going awkward, you just kind of just friend zone them at the end but i think it's okay early on to like not make it so heavy-handed and so date like because i love that you want to ask him in person you kind of have to because there's nothing to text and i think you just kind of keep it casual that way and like he might pick up on the fact that it's not because but but he could also be like, oh, like I'd love to, but like, I just been really busy with work. You know, I don't think it's that hard for him to get out of it. But I think that way, even if it is a rejection, if he says, no, you're, I think you could be setting yourself up for more like, oh

yeah, great. You're like, my friends don't want to go either to you. So no one does. All right. I'll just keep looking. You can make a joke out of it. I think that's what you should do. Any thoughts? I get it. I get why you give dating advice after hearing that. I was taking notes over here, actually. I think you hit the spot. I mean, I love the fact that you say, hey, I have something that I've been wanting to do. None of my friends want to do it. And see what he says. I think that's the perfect lead in for that. Yeah.

Honestly. Especially for this situation where it is, you know, a little funny being your PT. And like if it's mini golf, you're just like, you know what no one does anymore? Mini golf. Mini golf. And he's going to be like, well, I'm in a league. Oh, God. It could be like bocce ball, you know, like there's so many options that you you know and

maybe try to find something kind of unique go to paris that's what we usually do on first date yeah go to paris yeah yeah classic and then i like ask for his number that seems so such a simple question but then that's the next step well yeah i mean if you're if you throw it out there casually and he he bites a little bit he's like yeah, yeah, that'd be fun. Then you'd be like, no, I'm serious. Do you want to go? Just, just be like, I'm, I'm, you know, cause a lot of times people will say these things in passing. Oh, we should go sometime. And they're like, yeah. You know, like I, I asked Billy Eichner out to get dim sung and he was like, I would love to go. And I like like we message and i'm like i'm

serious i would love to take you to to din tai fung because i love taking people there and honestly i want to become best friends with billy leichner but you know a lot of people say it casually and you almost have to say no no like i'm down are you really down i'm down if you're down give me your number or you could say here's my number or you know whether you decide okay amanda's got an idea no i don't i don't think it's a good one but i think for the for the purpose of discourse um what if you wrote him a little note and you fold it up and you handed it to him and you were like hey promise me you won't open this until you're like out of work and then it just says like now that you're out of work i would love to grab drinks i did actually think about like on the last day like i don't do like a thank you card or something and then writing in there like

i know thanks for being great pt by the way i think you're cute here's my number we should go out sometime i like my idea better i i like it no offense to you no i knew it was a bad one that's why i called it i'm not saying your idea is bad, but given hearing what your concerns are, I think our, I'm going to say our, our suggestion, Jason and I's, because you had the bad idea, Amanda. Amanda's had some amazing ideas. This allows you to like still have him as your PT person. You can totally pass this off as this, like my friends don't want to go. You don't want to go, whatever. There's so many outs. Amazing safety net.

The note, I mean, you might as well just ask about it in person. I get nervous when people do shit like that to me. It's just like, oh, fuck, I got a note. I got to read. I'm going to start writing you terrible notes. Yeah.

It starts with like, I wasn't going to say, but. I think you need to know everybody. Yeah, I think if you're looking for outs and safety nets in a way not to, like, make this, like, awkward and make him uncomfortable, I think this is a great way to, like, suss out his interest level and pass it off as this you just being a social person and then once and like and listen if he's saying yes he's considering the possibility it's a date right and uh just be flirty and you will you know pay attention to him just like women want guys to pay attention to them pay attention to his body language what he says you'll you'll pick up on it like Just be open to whatever he is. Don't want him to like you because again, you don't know anything about him other than

the fact he's good at PT. And don't forget to learn when you're on this date as opposed to just being focused on him. Don't obsess over worrying about if he knows this is the date. Just go open-minded and being open to learn about him. And if you are focused on learning about him, you will be in a position of power because he'll feel compelled to answer your questions. Yeah, I like that. And I feel like it's like casual enough

that it takes a bit of the pressure off. And it's my first time like ever asking someone out in person. So I feel like- Good for you. That's a round of applause. You know, she's getting out there. No matter what happens, it's a win in your book. Because like, listen, he already is like, he might have a non-negotiable.

I don't fuck patients. You know what I'm saying? Hard to argue with that. Yeah, it's hard to argue with that. Like, I don't know. I don't like, I don't want to get sued. You know, not that, you know, I'm just saying like liability is a concern these days. And it's, you can never be too safe.

So pat yourself on the back for doing the hard thing. Because hard things are hard to do. Yeah. All right. I'm excited. Keep us posted. We're dying to find out. We want, we want a play by play. Oh yes. No detail will be too small. All right. All right. All right. Thank you. Look forward to your update. Can't wait for you to let me know what you thought of my book. Oh yeah. I'll go get it. Okay. Bye. Hard sell. Always the salesman. Hard sell. How's it going? Hi, I'm good. How are you? Good. What's your name? I'm Ryan. I'm 28 years old and I have a texting dilemma I would love some help with. All right. What is the dilemma?

My ex, we broke up sometime in June and we haven't spoken since. I let him know I'm the one who broke up with him. I let him know that'm the one who broke up with him. I let him know that, you know, whenever he's ready, he can reach out to me and I'll be happy to talk and we can reconnect, maybe potentially be friends. But I let him make that decision himself and when he wanted to reach out and he did finally reach out to me after like three months of not talking with 89 text messages and photos. Was it literally 89 or literally okay so it was 89 and now it's actually closer to 100 um yeah so um yeah a little bit of time has passed since like the initial text messages and i didn't respond then he asked me some questions about like travels and stuff and then like yeah so what was

the tone of these 89 to 100 text messages it was it was almost like so he sent one he sent one at first he was like hey i've been ready to talk for a couple of weeks i'm gonna just like want to just fill you in with what i've been up to can't wait to reconnect and maybe be friends and i saw that and i was at work and i like immediately sent because i didn't want to be like mean i still kind of feel bad about the breakup and i was like hey like sounds good just let you know i'm at work and it's been really busy but i'll get to it in the next couple of days i just don't want you to think that i'm ignoring you but like i'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say and then he proceeded with like the 89 text messages um and it was also photos and the tone it was almost as if he had like opened up

his notes app like every day for the past three months and was like recording what he was doing and then like sent that whole thing to me with like a series of photos and it was like a total overshare as well so yeah that's what how long did you guys date for? Oh, a year, over a year. Okay, so a decent amount. And you haven't responded since. And your question is like, what do you do with these 100 messages kind of thing? Literally, what do I do with 100 messages? Yeah, I responded once like two days ago.

I said something like, hey, I'm like not ignoring you. I'm just like overwhelmed and I will get to these soon or something like that. I just like really didn't know what to say. And like also in one of the messages, he was like, I got throat gonorrhea from a girl at a festival because she had like group sex the day before and it sucks. Then he like sent me a photo of him getting like this ass shot of like him getting the medicine against the throat gonorrhea. And it's just like, I don't need to know all this. So it's stuff like that where I just like don't know what to do.

Is this like on par with the person you dated or like this kind of openness? It is. So in terms of that specifically, we were a very sex positive relationship and it was like open and like we really grew and like thrived off of that. But we're not together anymore. And I just don't know how to establish those types of boundaries and if he ever sent me 89 messages while we were dating i would have definitely had to talk to him about it so sure when you said hey maybe we could be friends in the future did you really mean that or was that just the classic awkward thing you sent in the moment because you just wanted to make an awkward

painful situation slightly less awkward and painful i truly feel like we could be like festival friends or like party friends you know what i mean but not like does that make sense but not like sit down and like yeah you know share our deepest secrets sure so not friends yeah okay yeah what i mean by that is it's like it's like yeah i'm sure you could be festival friends so basically casual acquaint acquaintances, people you run into, you're like, hey, it's good to see you. I haven't seen you in two years. And you generally like their company, but there's no real bond or no reason to actually hang out on a one-on-one basis. we don't do that with people we used to like intimately date for a year, year and a half and like consider like, and like share real moments of intimacy and conversation. Like that's why that doesn't happen. So when I say not friends, I mean, because like, you know, like it's your, your people are so worried. I mentioned this in my book, shameless plug, but people are so worried about like, you know, when they get out of a relationship, we want to like, we're worried about how much it means anymore, which is also a little bit foolish.

Like the relationship's over and you're like, well, did it not mean anything? You know, it's like, I'm sure it did, but feelings change and now we're no longer together. Right. But the truth is like, we do want to like still like reflect back on a relationship and go, that was a really like momentous, like that was, that was nice. And I cared about this person. It was nice and it didn't work out, but like I have a lot of love and a lot of respect for this person and this relationship. And I personally think trying to be like casual friends or festival friends, as you call it, is disrespectful to the once meaningful relationship you had. Because if it was meaningful in any way, like why are we resorting back to festival friends?

I'm not saying be rude if you happen to run into each other, but going out of your way to try to be friends in a casual way like this is not realistic. And I don't totally get it. I either find it to be insincere or unproductive but i also i don't my gut tells me he's not interested in being festival friends yeah that could be true um thoughts on this i agree um i don't know it sounds like he may be looking for something that she's not yeah yeah i'm uh 89 text messages this guy like he's he doesn't want to be friends. He wants you back. And he might not even realize that now, but you don't send 89 messages like that, right? The person usually being broken up with is only willing to be friends because it's the only way they are

allowed to have you in their lives, right? Yeah. So, but what I think you should do, do you have any suggestions before I just ramble on? I'm curious to hear you. Listen, there's no wrong answer, really. He is your ex. And even though you said, you know, let's be friends, you didn't really mean it. But at the same time, if you, I think the nicest thing for you to do, as long as you are comfortable emotionally, is to give him what you promised him and that it was time to talk and let things out. And it seems like while you aren't responsible for his closure, it certainly would be generous of you to give him a conversation that might allow him to maybe close

a chapter on a book that he hasn't yet closed. And so I don't think you responding via text, I would say, hey, listen, sorry, I've been a little overwhelmed, but you sent me a lot of messages. I, I, I, uh, I don't like, I don't think you want me to reply 89 times to these 89 messages. Uh, I'm down if you want to get a cup of coffee or maybe hop on a FaceTime and have a conversation. And then if you have that conversation, just shoot them straight, you know, hear them out, let them just say what he wants to say. Just let them listen and just say, and then hit him with a hard truth of yeah time has passed i've reevaluated and i'm just not sure if like being friends is healthy for either of us right now or actually oh my god don't say right now don't say right now because

he'll hear right now don't say right now i i stand corrected he because he will only hear right now and he will hold on to hope that's not there but uh you should say uh yeah i i don't think being friends is something that would be healthy for either of us and it's gonna hurt and it'll hurt him but it will be the nicest most generous thing you can do i agree i think sometimes the hard conversations are the heart the conversations you need to have the most so yeah i agree yeah okay that sucks i why does it suck? I think my, well, for selfish, for very selfish reasons. Do you want to see with him one more time? Well, and yeah, when I'm thinking of like festival friends and be like, hang out at

a festival, have some great sex, make great memories. And then we don't really talk. But, and I feel like that's also what he envisions. That also might not be what the reality is. I am 99% certain that he doesn't even really envision it. I would believe that he's convinced himself he's envisioned it. And I'm sure he likes to think of himself as something he'd be super mature enough and cool enough to handle that. But there's just no way it's just not going to get messy if you guys hook

up again. And if you think this conversation is going to be hard to have, imagine that conversation. I know, I've had it before with other exes. I should just, yeah, you're right. Oh, so this is a pattern for you? I'm sorry. I'm feeling a little feisty right now. I'm just kidding. It's not not a pattern, but, you know, a pattern, patterns are meant to be broken.

It's okay. Yeah. I can be grown now. You seem like a really cool hang and a really fun person to be around. And I would hate to let that go in my life too but like it's the thing about relationships like once you give it a true chance it's just it's really hard to go back you know and like i've been i've i've stayed i've become friends with like women i've dated briefly but like a whole year relationship i don't know

and then those women i became friends with we didn't like deliberately reconnect we like accidentally connected after like there was some great distance and they like randomly ran into each other and be like you know what it didn't work out but like we're like we're mature we can be cool but that's not what this is this is you guys finding a way and negotiating with each other and yourselves of how to ignore your boundaries and your non-negotiables to get what you want in the in the moment and not think about what's best for either of you long term that's what you guys are doing right now yeah and arguably i love that but it's not healthy so no i will send that message i'll send it i'll do it okay what and

and just this what are we what are we sending i don't know i'll just do it now but okay so yeah so this is what you text what are we you text um hey sorry and give them some instance here like here's what you say i'm finally actually getting to these i apologize it was just a lot at once and i have been kind of tied up but acknowledge that you're kind of finally getting to these okay i don't think you want me responding individually to all these messages, but I am down to like have a catch-up conversation either over a coffee, coffee, not drinks. Okay.

Festival friend. Or a FaceTime. And that's all you say. And then assuming he says yes, plan the get together. And before you can meet up with him, be very clear with your own boundaries for yourself and be willing to have an awkward conversation. Assume that he is going to try to get you back in his life.

My guess is he will be covert. He will pretend that it's not to like get you back and he'll probably festival friend it up. He'll probably try to act super chill and cool. And you kind of say the awkward thing is be like, I really just wanted to hear you out because you sent me a lot of those messages, but like, I've been doing some thinking between now and we thought, and I think you're the greatest, but like, I just don't think it's healthy for us. And I really don't think it's healthy for me, for us to like, try to be friends. And you can,

and if you want to hit them with a compliment, say, I care about you and I respect what we had too much to try to minimize it into something as casual as casual friends. Okay. That makes sense. And that will make his ego feel a little better. It will. I do love to do that. Okay. I send him the message, so I'll see what he says to FaceTime or something. So, okay. That's fine. Any final thoughts, Jason? No, I think 89 text messages is a okay. That's fine. Any final thoughts for that, Jason? No, I think, you know,

89 text messages is a lot. That's a lot. That's a lot. Okay, it was 100, first of all. We amped it up towards the end, but sorry,

I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, it's okay. There's an intensity that he has there that I just don't think it's, yeah, truly, it's just like, that's not a healthy,

it's not healthy that he did that. I don't think he's in the healthiest emotional state of mind right now you know he said he was of course he said the text don't prove yeah prove that statement yeah we we're very good at convincing ourselves of things that aren't true about our emotional like uh state of mind in fact like i don't think i think we're very rarely honest with ourselves about that. Yeah, right.

But more importantly, you know that you don't want to get back together with him, correct? Sure don't. Sure don't. I think the nicest thing to do for you would be to hit him hard with this truth, and this will allow him to move on and heal. Unfortunately, you saying, let's just be friends in the future probably truly he probably there's a good chance he spent the next three or four months however long time it was between the time you broke up and the time he first reached out planning this truly i mean i've done shit like that like you know when i was fucked up over a heartbreak i was like i'll just figure out how to get her

back she said we could be friends one day all right before i reach out to her friends i'm just gonna make sure I'm ready and I've done the work and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It sounds kind of fucked up when you say it like that, but we were very good at manipulating ourselves. And I'd be willing to bet that this is all a big setup and then he kind of blew his wad, so to speak, with these 100 messages

because you didn't get back to him right away. And the reason why he did that and kind of had the diarrhea of the text messages is because he just wasn't prepared for you not to get back to him right away. He planned this for so long. And then it was like, ah, I mean, I'm certain of it. So knowing that, just consider the fact and empathize with the fact that you're dealing with someone who's just maybe not in his best, he's not in his best place right now. He's not feeling his best self. He's very vulnerable right now. And so consider that vulnerability and just let them off with some hard truth so that he can actually start. He hasn't spent any time actually trying to get over you is my guess.

Okay. That's a really good perspective. Actually. I didn't think of it that way. Yeah. I mean, I would love for him to like move on and be happy and find someone that was a better match. So. Well, if that's true, then you definitely need to do this. Yeah, it's true. I think I just needed to look outside of the bigger picture of the text messages and into his head.

Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I am dying to find out how this goes. Same. I'll let you know. I'll put you guys in. I'll shoot you an email or whatever.

I appreciate it. Congrats on your book. Thank you. I hope you enjoy it. Yeah. I'll. Free order right now. I'll let you know. I'll put you guys in. I'll shoot you an email or whatever. I appreciate it. Congrats on your book. Thank you. I hope you enjoy it. Yeah. I'll buy it. I'll buy it, Nick. Given the context, you might find a nugget or two that I think you might enjoy.

Yeah, maybe I'll pass it around to my soul sisters and we can talk about it together. Have a little book discussion. I love that for all of us. Yeah. All right right thank you so much my pleasure thank you for calling in please let us know how this all goes down uh i'm really curious about this one because i think it's very relatable and and very hard to do yeah i know all right nice to meet you nick nice to meet you nice to meet you good luck all right take care good luck bye all right bye-bye you mentioned uh wwe what did you watch uh the finale so i watched i watched gabby's part and then i went back and uh i watched teen uh rachel and tino and that whole thing the next day uh i'd love your tech yeah i thought

i felt so bad i know all these guys on a personal level yeah so to me it was like i think i looked at it through a different viewpoint than the audience because i know what these guys are actually like yeah they're all good guys yeah it's unfortunate what happened the storyline behind it yeah yeah so yeah that after uh after the rose with tino and that was that was some tv watching Avon come out and just Mr. Steal Your Girl with, uh, Tino was not what I was expecting, but, um, very entertaining, I guess I could say. What was your read on, on the, did you, were you surprised they didn't work out or what was your thoughts on that? I don't know. I just, I wasn't shocked.

I wasn't shocked. But at the same time, I wasn't expecting that to happen. I thought they were going to at least make it past. I don't know if anyone expected that. Yeah. You know, past the secret house visits. Anyway, you want to,

you could get ahold of him and convince him to come on the show because he was supposed to. And he, he kind of, I mean, I get it. He's taking care of his mental health right now. I'll do everything I can to get Tino on the show. I'll bribe him. Well, we don't know.

Sure. Yeah, great. Lobbyist. Jason, thank you for coming. I'm so happy to be here with you, Nick. It was a pleasure. It's been fun. First podcast.

I hope the people really felt like they got to know you better. And I hope they have a different perspective coming out of this than they did going in. And do you have any final thoughts that you want to share? Yeah, something that came for context. So I remember I was thinking back

to when you were asking me, like, what were you thinking going into this? And like I said, I've seen clips of the show here and there, but I remember we were in the hotel about to start the night one, like the day before. And I went in to take, you know, the photos for the cast photos and stuff. And then I remember somebody pulled me aside and was like, Hey, like stand here and do this like TikTok for, for bachelor nation. And I was like, like, I was really confused. I was like hey like stand here um and do this like tiktok for uh for bachelor nation and i was like like i was really confused i was like what's bachelor nation and she looked at me like this

dude is fucked and i had no idea that there was a whole fan base oh yeah of like all i didn't even know bachelor in paradise was the thing actually you didn't know about bachelor i had no idea what batch i learned that actually um i think after the show pure soul yeah so i was like holy shit there's like actual like fans of the show i i i was very naive about what i was getting myself into i had no no clue. And then when I got home, I was like, yeah, maybe a few people will know I went on the show. Like, you know, I came back, I have like 500 text messages. Like there's already accounts on Instagram called like Jason's like teddy bear, Jason's Husky. And I'm like, how do these people know this stuff about me? But shout out to them. They've been great. Those fan accounts, they're loving, but yeah, it was, uh, it was a lot. Well, we are glad, uh, I'm glad to have met

you. I'm glad. I appreciate you taking the time to, uh, share your, your side of things. And, uh, selfishly, I do hope that we get a chance to, uh, see you again and maybe, uh, see different sides of you, uh, that you didn't get an opportunity to show the first time for understandable reasons. Yeah, and totally. That's another thing I kind of want to add is like, yeah, it is hard to watch me on that screen and that version of myself

because it isn't who I kind of see myself as, but I do want to give credit to Gabby for never judging or, you know, she really empathized where I was in the process and she really made me feel more comfortable with it all. And I genuinely just really appreciated that. And she, I don't know if, you know, I think she is just like a very empathetic person. And as a nurse, I think she really just knows how to. I think you, you watching you two have a conversation, I really enjoy it. and i don't know

if it's because i i saw two people it's so hard to i think truly connect in that environment yeah it's not hard to feel chemistry yeah but it's hard to truly see each other in focus on one another and i truly felt like you two saw each other and that was that was just fun to watch i don't think we get to see that very often on on the show because i do think it takes two people who are in touch with their feelings certainly have been through it you know maybe therapy helps but for whatever reason i saw that with you guys it was fun to watch and um you know obviously you know jason and gabby and eric are in a good spot and we wish them all the best. But I did enjoy watching you guys too. I enjoyed watching you two try to find if there was something there.

Absolutely. And when you say that, it just reminds me that we really did have a unique special connection that honestly I don't think I've ever had before in my life with her in terms of being able to really just understand and empathize with what each of us has kind of gone through and without even we talked about it briefly but it was almost as if we we just really understood you know and it's i've never experienced that oh i do have one more question i know we have to go but in this week uh you talked about healing you talked about obviously and when you say heal that implies obviously damage has been done

but do you would you consider this overall experience despite your need to still heal to be a net positive because we can experience something you know sometimes experiencing some you know painful things can make us stronger because we can learn from how would you over how would you summarize your experience with net positive neutral negative yeah i i think after you know i've had time to process everything and come to come to i think i went through the whole phase of you know denial what is it denial i'm not sure acceptance anger there's a denial anger acceptance acceptance everything is definitely towards the end.

I've gone through it all. And like now I'm at the phase of acceptance. And I think overall it has, it will be a net positive for me in many ways. I think being able to be in an environment where you are just constantly talking about your feelings and everything. I am in a place in my life

where I'm looking for somebody for the rest of my life. And like I said, I am very intentional with what I commit to. And I think it really allowed me to tap into that even more so of what exactly it is that of how I can get there, I guess. Awesome. Well, I have no doubt you will get there. And again, I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget to send those questions at asknick at castmedia.com cast with a k uh don't forget to order my book don't text your ex happy birthday because it just came out october 4th two days ago and i'd love for you guys to read it i worked really hard on it i really think you'll like it there's a lot of good nuggets in there so check out vilefiles.com and it's a bunch of different links to either order the audiobook or buy the book either on amazon

or all the different places you can order it i really would appreciate it and we will be with you next week have a great day