The Viall Files - E491 Going Deeper - Tino Franco Speaks

Episode Date: October 20, 2022

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files, Going Deeper Edition! Today we are joined by Tino Franco to hear him tell us all about his experience on the last season of The Bachelorette and the devastating situation that led to heartbreak with Rachel. We kick things off with a bit of Pop Culture Hot Goss, talking about Selena Gomez and Hailey Bieber being photographed together at the Academy Museum Gala, and reacting to the concept of surprise weddings, talking about Robert Kraft’s ceremony. We then welcome in Tino, to answer all of your burning questions after his AFR appearance and breakup with Rachel Recchia. Tino tells all as we check-in by asking how’s his heart, what made him fall in love with Rachel, and if he believes in the phrase “once a cheater, always a cheater.” We also get into how they handled the pressures of a public relationship, his thoughts on AFR, and what challenges began to arise in their love together. We then get into it by having Tino break down the incident, explain why he cheated, and talk about how he told Rachel. We talk about insecurity leading to desire, why Tino didn’t come clean sooner, and how Rachel reacted after hearing the full truth. We then get into the house confrontation, if Tino knew there would be cameras, and if Tino genuinely feels regret for cheating. We then talk about Tino being remorseful, what he’s done since the breakup, and how getting help with his mental health has been a huge step for him. After that, we tackle your burning questions about the ring conversation, what Tino’s purpose of the journal was, if Tino heard from Aven after AFR aired, and if Tino is still in love with Rachel.  “I let her down by having my insecurities run wild.” To Help Tino and Camp Ronald McDonald in their goal to emotionally support children with cancer and their families, consider donating at: https://one.bidpal.net/HEROESFORHEALING2022/browse/donation Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  If you would like to get some advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Office Hours” in the subject line!  Be sure to check out my sports radio show Fandemonium, Wednesdays @ 3PT / 6 ET  on Amazon's Amp app.  Click the link to download Amp using my code NICKVIALL https://apps.apple.com/us/app/amp-host-live-radio-shows/id1586403838 To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com Support a Local Bookstore: https://bookshop.org/books/don-t-text-your-ex-happy-birthday-and-other-advice-on-love-sex-and-dating-9798212185622/9781419755491 THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Away Travel: Start your 100-day trial and shop the entire Away lineup of travel essentials, including their best-selling suitcases and bags at http://www.AwayTravel.com/viall Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @tino.360 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what's going on everybody welcome back to a very special and exciting. It was special. Yeah. I think you guys are all excited because finally, Tino. Tino made it in. He finally, we finally got the Tino exclusive. Distance makes the heart grow fonder. But in all seriousness, we appreciate him coming on. We know it wasn't easy for him. We're glad that he prioritizes mental health after AFR, but also thankful that he decided to come here

and be vulnerable and share some details about what went down. So we won't want to give too much away. What do you guys think of Tino now? Do you think of Tino differently? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

What did you think of him before? The finale AFR episode was not kind to him. Yeah. And now do you want to give anything away? I just think if you felt like he was not holding himself accountable during AFR, this will be a very different tone and content level. I would agree. And I think there's a very different level of accountability that is displayed in this

interview. And walking through the exact situation and the context and all that good stuff is important. Interesting. Yeah. I would agree. It's very Tino heavy this episode. Ultra quick to throw in a little bit of pop culture. Selena Gomez and Hailey Bieber are in their first photo together.

This is huge. I saw that today. How much do you know about the background? I'm familiar. Yeah, there's been an ongoing feud for some time. It seems what I couldn't tell is, is this a fan feud that's gotten out of control or or have these two kind of cryptically played along at their convenience as an outsider's point of view that was the question i had i mean it's just it's like selena and justin were on

again off again for the longest time and then a matter of months later he's walking down the aisle with hayley so it's like when you i yeah, but that's not Haley's fault. No, I completely agree. But it's like you're set, like the two of them were kind of set up for failure in that way. Well, yeah. And the on and on and on again, off again. I don't think very highly of those relationships. I've been in those relationships.

There's a reason why they're off again often. I do also think now that we've seen them have a success, Justin and Haley have a successful marriage. also think now that we've seen them have a success justin and hayley have a successful marriage it's a little bit different in terms of the vitriol that might have been there at the beginning has probably subsided when you're like okay well it seems like there's a really good chance like they're each other's person what do you think uh compelled this photograph to finally be taken because was it she just went on call her daddy and they were she was asked about the selena of it all who did someone post it or was it like a pop photo no it was yeah it was taken like by the photographer

the win for them Tyrell Hampton good job Tyrell what a win and it was at the 2022 Academy Museum Gala in Los Angeles very star studded event had all the key players there

that was not. Not a key player. But that's the breaking news. You did not get an invite. Oh, like, was this staged? Why was the photo taken? Oh, in terms of, like, why now? I do think I, to your original point of, like,

how much of this is an actual feud, how much of this is just, like, extreme fans making a lot of noise on the internet, I think maybe in Hailey's interview where she mentioned that she does get a lot of hate, and she didn't assign blame to Selena. She very much spoke about the fandom surrounding it, and so I wonder if that was a catalyst for being like,

hey, we don't have an issue with each other. If they have peace then maybe the fans will stop coming well exactly like once i feel like they should have done this sooner yeah like they had the power i think i wonder if they sort of went the route of like oh we're not going to talk about it you know i feel like a big pr strategy is to just move on people forget about it and then just kind of double down and maybe it's just fans but haven't haven't what at least one of them or both of them or been at least accused of doing passive, aggressive critiques

of each other through social media or no? Or is that just fans overreacting and kind of guessing? I covered this for a news story once, but it was like, Selena did like a whole TikTok of a makeup routine with her like rare beauty line. And right before that, Hailey had of a makeup routine with her like rare beauty line. And right before that, Hailey had posted a makeup line and Selena did it very like satirically

and was being like very dramatic. And people were like, oh my God, she's mocking Hailey. And I was like, do you know how many millions of like get ready with me videos there are on TikTok? Like people are reaching.

That's a reach. Yeah. So mostly fluff. Good for them. I'm glad they can bury the hatchet if there was a hatchet to bury. His name is Justin. Yeah.

And the other quick thing is, speaking of reunions, Robert Kraft, owner of the Patriots, had a surprise wedding. Did he have massage therapists there? That's the question. He married Dr. Dana Blumberg. And I'm just curious what your take on the whole surprise wedding move is. Was it really a surprise? That looks like a lot of people.

It was a surprise wedding? So they invited people to an event. People didn't know it was a wedding. And then they found out at the event it was a wedding. It's like if anyone's seen the show Girls. Yes. So what do you think about ambushing? I guess it's an ambush wedding.

Ambushing your guests? Yeah. Because I'm assuming he didn't ambush his bride. No. No, she was wearing white. I think Dana was aware. Fuck it. Why not?

As long as you... If you know and like the right people know for it to be a good event, why not? Yeah. As long as like the fake event matched the amount of time that the real event's going to take. Yeah. And most weddings don't have like the ceremonies are pretty quick. I'm sure it was fun.

Full mass with communion. But my thing is like, what if somebody didn't go to the event? They were kind of so-so on whether or not they should rally and pull through and overcome logistical challenges. Or they were like, nah, it's whatever. There's going to be another whatever, like dinner. And then it's like, nope, that was the wedding. Well, that's on you for throwing the surprise.

That's on Rob. That's on Bobby. That's on Bobbert. Yeah. I don't know. Next time Nick invites us to an event, we just have to go. Yeah. Well, one of you missed my party

and one of you missed Natalie's, so next time. God. Gotta make the effort. We could have missed it. One of you misses the wedding. Fired. Never again. Fired. But also, hey, that's a headline. I have a signed copy of Don't Text Your Ex Happy Birthday and it says, Dear Allie, I will never fire you.

So I'll take that to a court of law any day. What would you write in my signed copy of Don't Text Your Ex Happy Birthday? I guess we'll find out. But I can't write I'll never fire you because that was Allie's special note. So I guess you'll have to keep worrying. Tino, everybody. Let me think about it. All right.

Before we get to Tino, for all the people tuning in to listen to Tino, I have a book that came out last week. It is a USA Today bestseller. Ha ha ha. I don't know why I said ha ha ha. That was awkward of me. To all of your haters. I did it. I guess.

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or this other wonderful person, check this out, vilefiles.com. You can get the audio book. If you're in the UK, Australia, or Canada this out, vilefiles.com. You can get the audio book. If you're in the UK, Australia, or Canada, go to vilefiles.com. There's links for that. Also, Amazon, Barnes & Noble. If you want to support indie bookstores,

those are all links are available at vilefiles.com. Don't forget to send questions for Ask Nick. If you haven't listened to the special update episode that we dropped last Friday, check it out for our updates for Ask Nick and texting office hours. I think that's it. All right.

Tino, everybody. You need some luggage? I do. Everybody has baggage. We talk about that a lot on this show. And you want to have the right kind of baggage. Yeah. You want to look good when you're totally not around.

You want people to be like, is that away baggage? It's the baggage you want to bring into a relationship. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So fun fact about my Away suitcase. The other week I was flying home for my sister's wedding.

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It's got 360 spin wheels. It's great. You can put also like bags on top of it. It's really convenient. I put my dog on top of it. It looks sexy. They got all different types of suitcases. Also, it lasts forever.

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Thanks for having me, Nick. How are you? How's your heart? Every day gets better. The healing process is gonna be a long one for me. I know we were supposed to do this interview a couple weeks ago, but obviously afr happened and there were lots of mixed reviews about it yeah and we know that you were kind of hold on to your kilts dearies peacock

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Peacock. Ladies and gentlemen. What are you doing? What do you mean? Just keep it simple. I'm making the promo. Just keep it simple. Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros,

two guys that talk about Bravo. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav Bros. No. Oh. Dude, stop with the voice. Just keep it simple. I've seen promos on TV, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged.

This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are going to get tired of it already. We need some oomph. All right, then fine. Let's try to do it with your voice. Bravo, bros.

Good job. Taking care of your mental health, and we appreciate that. So, one, I just want to thank you for taking the time to come here. I know it's not always easy to talk about this topic. Yeah. I mean, like how are you doing? And I guess, you know, I know it seemed like AFR, you know, was a lot. Where's your heart at now? How's your mental health? Where, how would you say you're doing? Yeah. I don't know. Like, I mean, I just try to keep, uh, keep working on it. I mean, like the whole having a psychologist thing and I've been seeing him like twice a week. Um, yeah, doing yeah i don't know like i mean i just try to keep uh keep working on it i mean like the whole having a psychologist thing and i've been seeing him like twice a week really yeah uh you know i

wanted somebody if they you know if i really went south or something they could they could make moves that some uh therapists can't because they're social workers and they can't like prescribe anything but i i feel like i've made like a lot of really good progress in it. Honestly, I probably am like 15 years overdue to start this kind of process. So I feel like every time I'm in a therapy session, we're limited to 45 minutes and she's like, it's like origami. It's not just unfolding like a couple, you know, sheets. It's how long, how long have you been seeing the psychologist? So the, the show did set me up with one for uh the duration of the show and then i moved on to this one because she was highly recommended in la

and she has been absolutely phenomenal very available helps out a lot like with my work schedule i can't just you know i can't i can't walk off a construction site go have a good cry and come back with swollen ice so um you know she's been great she's been seeing me a lot after hours and that's been that's awesome man yeah well good for you for for doing that did you start seeing her before was it before afr or or like in the timeline of you and rachel uh breaking up when did you when you start working on things so rachel and i broke up about a month before the show ended so i stayed with the show one and you know she was phenomenal she was a great listener and it just it you know i i always will associate and i told her this like i'm always going to

associate her with the kind of traumatic experience so i i just felt like it'd be better if i moved on to it makes to somebody else. No, we love that. We talk about that all the time. You know, therapy or getting a therapist, like having someone that works for you that you connect with is as important as any part of therapy. There's a lot of good therapists, there's bad therapists, there's, you know, it's like, it's kind of like dating, you know, you got to find someone you feel safe and compatible with. So we're happy that it seems like you found someone that you feel comfortable with. So good for you. Couldn't say enough nice things about her.

Well, what I'd like to do is, again, AFR was a big mess. I'd love to talk a little bit about that. I'd love to, I think a lot of people are left with some unanswered questions. I mean, the takeaway that, you know, just so you know, just full transparency conversations we've had about, you know, you while recapping it and I think the overall sentiment at least from the people we've talked to our audience mostly is no one agrees with with cheating we have some strong opinions about the the low character moment that is infidelity or cheating that's not up for debate but we also this is a show, timelines are things

that we're interested in. And I'd love to like just walk through kind of what happened and kind of, you know, see if we can better understand this relationship and how it all went and if that's okay with you. Yeah. I mean, I think pretty much we can talk about most anything at this point. Obviously there are things that you know transpired between me and rachel that as as we've both said are deeply personal and we're not going to touch it whatever you want to feel yeah whatever you feel comfortable that's i think we can very easily um go through the timeline without touching any of that and just you know so i know you guys haven't talked to me before like i'm definitely not on team cheater like i i do not stand by what i did at all it was not cool it wasn't fair to rachel and it haunts

me daily still like it's just it it's something i'm ashamed of and certainly like wish it i could have done it differently like a million times over it yeah well yeah i mean that's not easy to say we really appreciate you saying that yeah i mean it mean, you sound sincere, at least from where I'm sitting, I guess. What is your thought, I guess, on, you know, there's that common phrase, once a cheater, always a cheater. As someone who just says you're not on team cheater, you have regret, how do you process that feeling or what insecurities do you have around that question that gets commonly answered when people make that mistake? Well, I don't, you know, I mean, I'm certainly going to, you know, strive the rest of my life to prove that is not the case, at least for me. My friends, if they said, oh, you know, like my significant other cheated on me, like more often than not, I'd say, okay, you guys probably are, you know, you should think about breaking up with them. And now, I mean, like, I guess I have like a little, like, I don't really think I deviate too far from that. That's certainly how I was

before I made the mistake. And I think that's probably true, like nine times out of 10. I mean, I know some people who have worked through this similar issue and they have a beautiful relationship and they're stronger than ever. And I, you know, like I commend them for having the strength to get through that. But more often than not, cheating cheating is a deal breaker I'm pretty sure it would be for me so you know it's I guess my duty now to like like I was saying with my therapist like I'm trying to go through and unfold and figure out why my you know insecurities my ego could just take over my actions like that and just kind of lead me down this path to like go to rock bottom and dig a 10-foot hole beyond that and then choose my actions from that. I mean, it was the lowest thing I could have done

in relationship terms to Rachel and that wasn't fair to her at all. I'd love to kind of go back to, I guess, let's start, if we could, when you and Rachel got engaged. And I'd love to kind of understand the timeline between what I'm guessing at that moment felt like a really happy moment, and then from where, how things kind of unfolded to how we got to AFR. So, I mean, when you got engaged, I guess, you know, this is a question probably you should just ask,

like, what were you thinking? Like, what, you know, bachelor people who get engaged, their feelings at engagement can range anywhere from like, holy shit, like, oh, like, this is a leap of faith, but like, bachelor people who get engaged, their feelings of at engagement can range anywhere from like, holy shit, like, oh, like, I guess like this is a leap of faith, but like, we'll see to like, other people are just like, fuck it. I, I know this is crazy, but I'm all in. Where would you range? How did you see yourself in that kind of spectrum of, of, of, of where your heart was at when

you and Rachel got engaged? I had no doubt I was in camp. Okay, this is it. I have the coolest story ever and the coolest girl ever. No doubt in my mind I wanted to do that. For myself, I remember after getting engaged, it's kind of like a deer in headlights situation for the next couple of weeks.

How was the next few days, like the happy couple weekend that you get to enjoy right after engagement? What was, I guess, the next month or so like for your relationship? Oh, I mean, it was amazing. Rachel really, really knows how to partner and make them feel really special and valued. And, you know, I think I'm more of like a words of affirmation person. I mean, like she really like made me feel so secure in our relationship and was just everything I could have asked for and more.

Of course, the distance was challenging, but we found like plenty of time to text and talk on the phone. And it was, you know, it was great. Like the meetups were always like very passionate and we got to learn so much more about each other because we weren't on like a timeline of you can see her for X amount of time and then we're going to pull you away and have you talk about that. Like it was just nice and it felt so real and it was so fun being with her. Like what was, um, I mean, I guess before we get into the, I mean, if you're okay with it, I don't know if this is weird for you, but what was, what were things that you fell in love with Rachel? Like what were, why did you, why were you in camp? Fuck it all in, so to speak? Like, what was it about Rachel

and what did you learn about her through the process that made you think this had the potential of being this kind of crazy, amazing story despite, obviously, the challenges that a relationship and bachelor face? Yeah, I mean, like, it's tough because there were two leads this season, so, like, a lot of people are saying, you know,

like, we didn't really get to see their relationship bloom or, you know, like the time was so limited, they only showed certain things. But I mean, the Rachel I saw like just such an amazing, caring person and one of the best compliments I think you can ever receive, which I still to this day want to give it to Rachel because she really shines at this amazingly. still to this day want to give it to Rachel because she really shines at this amazingly. She is one of, if not the best listener I've ever met. And she was so attentive and on the show where, you know, in every aspect we, as the contestant side, we're like pursuing her. I always felt like she was going out of her way to make sure I felt valued and seen and, you know, like really comfortable there and that there was something

really special for me there did you i mean like this you know with all that you know the distance is a challenge after again like you know with my own experiences friends i have uh there's always you know when the time when you get done filming and then that space between it's filming and when it starts airing did you how did you, the, the stresses that come with a relationship that starts in The Bachelor? Like, you know, how did you guys communicate about the potential challenges that every couple faces when they have to watch it back, when they have to start a relationship long distance? How did you guys go about that early on? And that, did that ever become a challenge? long distance how did you guys go about that early on and that did that ever become a challenge so you're you're talking about like the typical issues of like a couple coming out of i guess

sure yeah i mean i yeah there are i guess pretty typical issues with the long distance and not being able to see each other and having to watch things back and then there might be other challenges that could have been specific to you do you guys have any like were there any i don't mean there obviously seems to be there was seems like there were some, or maybe there weren't challenges. Well, those came eventually. Every relationship has challenges. Yeah. I mean, like we, we just communicated so well in the beginning and it was like truly amazing. Like in a lot of ways, um, we just, we fit the bill of making that situation the best we could for a long time. So like,

kind of a funny example of it was like, there's a time change. She's from Florida and I'm California. She stays up really late and I get up at the crack of dawn. So it actually was like working out perfectly, like with the time change, like we were really hitting our stride and making sure like we were finding time to talk and, you know, show affection to each other. And it was like a special thing. I mean, typically, like, you know, I to each other and it was like a special thing i mean typically like you know i i was trying to be really attentive to like how she feels loved and like you know the distance and the secret secretivity i don't know the secrecy keeping it yeah secrecy you know those presented their own challenges because you can't send like her flowers one day

you know just to make sure she feels special that day or appreciated and you know you can't send like her flowers one day, you know, just to make sure she feels special that day or appreciated. And, you know, you can't go and post her all over your Instagram or do something like that, that, you know, you could just go a little bit beyond just the normal stuff to make her feel like special. What changed? Where did we go from what sounds like a nice start and you guys find the time and hang your stride to what's you know like during afr or that visit on camera it seemed like you guys were having a he said she said moment of about whatever this breakdown was like how do you see it where did things take a shift if if at all that resulted in you making this mistake that you now regret or you say you regret i absolutely regret it and i'll say it a million times i do it's biggest mistake of my life i mean but there was a lot of things that

through like self-reflection i kind of see like maybe weren't a problem but i wasn't giving them the attention that they deserve so like i think a perfect example is i was seeing like the shows psychologist or therapist for a little bit. And I always said like, oh, you know, like now nothing, nothing about the show really bothers me. Or like, I didn't know what to talk to him about because things were just going so well. It was like, I didn't really put any effort into like really looking deep in and saying like, okay, this is a really unique situation where we met and fell in love. Maybe there are things that like I'm insecure about and my ego's just staying dormant.

And I wish I did that. I wish I took therapy way more seriously before we started having issues because maybe that would have, I mean, I know for a fact that would have helped me find a healthier vice, a less toxic outlet for when times got hard. And every relationship goes through hard things.

You were feeling some insecurities pop up or kind of ignoring them? Well, so i guess it changed when we were like when things started to heat up the promo started when we were coming into the show and i guess like i really i could not describe and you would understand it but like i i can't describe to anybody how actually hard that is watching back. Like we've seen the show or parts of it. Like we kind of knew what we were signing up for as contestants in the sense that we're going to see a lot of public displays of affection for people that aren't us. Like it's not the Tino and Rachel show.

It was Rachel and Gavin show. Yeah. And that took way bigger of a toll on me than I thought it would and you couple that with it was it was feeling a little distant I think we both had a lot of pressure on ourselves you you feel like you're under a spotlight of course the leads get a tremendous amount of attention that like I personally can't even empathize with because I've never done it and I'm sure it is so hard on them I'm sure any lead would ever say that so it it just it it felt like it was getting a little distant and I was trying to you know bring us back to that really affectionate way we were before where I was like feeling really comfortable because watching it back or like

just having Instagram at that time seeing your feed filled with theories or clips of other people was really difficult. But you know, like looking back on it when she's just getting, she has like a super full plate and I'm like asking for more and kind of like, like, I don't think like, I really think I could have been like a way more supportive partner for her and kind of like seen through the storm. Like that, that's where I really feel like I let her down and you know, things were hard. I mean, relationships when way more supportive partner for her and kind of like seen through the storm like that that's where i really feel like i let her down and you know things were hard i mean relationships when emotions get high and me and her are very passionate people like you know like we we would have talks that would get elevated but that doesn't give you any excuse to like act out and i think if i you know

if i could have done it different i would have have really kind of taken the time to really digest other. So when something would be said, I really think I have a bad tendency and this could be anxious attachment or whatever my therapist and I land on at whatever point we do. Like, I think sometimes I have like a tendency when something happens or is said, like, I think kind of catastrophically. So like my mind goes there and it's hard for, I think anybody to like walk it back and be like, okay, what else could I, what other interpretations could there be here? What positive interpretations could there be? And I just was unable to do that. Could you, are you able to give like an example of, was unable to do that. Could you, are you able to give like an example of, as you kind of mentioned, you said you, it sounds like you felt some distance and, and to, to confirm being the lead batch rep batcher, it is super stressful. There's a lot of commitments. I remember the same struggle that I, I felt like I was having with Vanessa. I was more in Rachel's

camp, right? Where it was more like, Hey, listen, like I i can i can tell you how i actually felt about you but what you're going to see isn't always going to support that so like i'm going to need you to trust me here but that's something we struggled with but did that create distance did the amount of time in which you guys communicated or talked on the phone were there were there periods of which it wasn't as consistent as it was before yeah um. So like, I mean, again, with, you know, my theorized anxious attachment style, you know, like I was, I was trying to give her space, which like, that's the hardest thing in a relationship for me. Like having that kind of, I don't know what to call it, like that kind of relationship style. It is, it's really hard, but we were trying to do that because I was just

trying to get creative and try to like be supportive in any way I could, because like, you know, obviously I wanted to be with her forever. And it just like, it felt like the more I was like trying to be like, like attentive, it was more like creating more distance and that. So we were, we were kind of taking some time like couple days to like give each other space and i didn't think it was i i thought it was pretty productive actually so if i'm hearing you right and correct me if i'm wrong it sounds like you felt like and i don't want to put words in your mouth so correct me if i'm wrong but it sounds like maybe the pressures of the bachelorette or for whatever reason you felt some sort of disconnect

that you didn't feel early on and you were feeling like maybe you you really took that to heart maybe got insecure about it i was i was feeling really insecure because like it felt distant and like she was just busy i mean like i don't think i like it looking back on it like i mean there was such like a healthier way to handle this kind of stuff i mean well how did you do it versus how do you wish you would have done it well so i mean obviously i went and made a mistake and did it before that oh um you know like i just i i tried to take initiative in the sense of like trying to push for a game plan of how we'd get better sure and sometimes you just kind of do have to give them like a little breathing room so they can find their way back home and i think like me being at

times pushy about it or maybe even just coming off that way like that really put a lot more strain where i should have just been more uh supportive pushy and like you wanting more like quality time or or just communication yeah like it's a fun it's it's like in a relationship i think that's what we all struggle with it's like what what do you what's the line between like i love that you seem like you're trying to take accountability and reflect in a way but how do we draw the line between supporting our partner versus you know making sure we're getting what we need in the moment. You know, remembering it back, what would you have done differently? How would you have liked to have handled that, like you feeling the way you did versus how you handled it in terms of how you communicated with Rachel about like feeling a

little disconnected or insecure? I think I would have probably like leaned more on my therapist to try to kind of unfold why I was like, just my insecurities were spiking so hard. I think a lot of the space stuff really helped. And I honestly, I think at times with our partners, maybe they really do need us to kind of step up and be a friend at times. And I just think like, maybe I should have been more comfortable in that role where I was, you know, like really just feeling like really insecure and just like just self doubting. And it was just, it was hurting. I was like, you know, like again, I was thinking like kind of catastrophically. So obviously like the ideas of like, oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed.

Like if this doesn't work out, like I'm going to be the guy who like got engaged and then like, it didn't work out within like two months or, you know, it just, it really, like, I guess my mind just went to like kind of a dark place and that should have been more of like an alarm to me to like go get more help and not, you know, lean on Rachel so much, especially when she had such a hard, you know, role to take on at the time. With it being two bachelorettes, and I guess I never thought about this until now, but I mean, we didn't know this at the time, but you must have known that Gabby and Eric were together. Yeah. Did you, did you compare yourself to them at any point, good or bad? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh, Eric's a great dude. I, I tried to check in a lot with him on his family situation and him and Gabby at the time when Rachel and I were going through

our struggles, we're doing so amazing. Like they really were. And when, when you see that and you're, you're feeling insecure, like that kind of amplifies it a little bit, you know, like me and Eric talked pretty regularly. He kind of was checking in like, Hey, how are everything? How's everything going? And it just like, I, I remember I didn't even really want to talk to him about it. Cause I didn't want to admit like the vote. Like I didn't want to get vulnerable with anybody about like how I was feeling at the time. And I mean, just bottling it in led to. Yeah. Did, did you communicate with Rachel at all? I mean, cause it sounds like when you say you took it to a more catastrophic place, did you,

I mean, did you feel like you guys were on the verge of breaking up or like, you know, like, what was your mindset prior to this cheating or, and we'll get into what exactly was the cheating but what was that mindset and did you ever communicate that insecurity to Rachel yeah I I think I mean at the time yeah I definitely like but I I want to make like one I want to put it to bed like we weren't on a break there's I don't know where that came from but I like we were not separated or anything like that. So, yeah, I mean, like when, when I acted out, I felt like maybe we were kind of in like, like we were starting to check out and, you know, we're, we were just in a really dark place. Like it's, it's hard to describe because like even looking back on it, like I just, it takes me to a place where like, I really wish I just didn't do that.

Like, or just didn't act out i mean like the the saddest part is like when i ended up telling and i know we'll circle back to this but like we were at an all-time high like it was so amazing so it's it's like painful to like think back like you know like how could you do this when like that was just around the corner but you know when you go through hard times in a relationship it's hard to you know just convince yourself that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. The ring. There was seemed to be some vague discussion during AFR or that fight at the house. Now, for those of you who don't know, I think we often forget that after a bachelor couple gets engaged, they immediately take the ring from you. And then you have these happy couple

weekends, which happen every two to three weeks. And you're like locked in a house for four days. gets engaged they immediately take the ring from you and then you have these happy couple weekends which happen every two to three weeks and you're like locked in a house for four days it's like nice but also like fucking torturous because it's just like you can't leave it's a nightmare i fucking it's like after only doing dates and i think sometimes they will bring the ring if you ask for but like also not always to like wear it for the four days that you're like hanging out with your fiance it's kind of weird so i liked it anytime we got it i was like stoked okay well that's very endearing what's what was going on there because it seemed like you guys were very careful with your words or it seemed like there might have been some disagreement between you and rachel in terms of are you able to clear the air about that whole situation or,

or did any of that lead to your insecurity? Again, it doesn't sound like you're justifying any of your actions, but I am just curious about the ring and what conversations happened around the ring. Yeah. I mean, we, we did have some conversations about like whether we were going to wear the ring if we went back to dating at AFR. And, you know, I think really that's where me as a partner, as a fiance, as a boyfriend, whatever I was to each other at the time, like that's where I really failed her. Because just like I told you guys, like, like seeing the ring for four days, like lit up my world. So like any conversation around that, like really, really cut me deep. And, um, you you know like it doesn't justify my actions like

i did what i did because i'm insecure like i didn't have the strength to take a step back even if something was said about the ring like i should have been able to take a step back and just kind of think productively about that maybe this is a way we're trying to find like a way to like walk it back so we can get back to that amazing level that we were at or kind of like add some weight to like what we built back then. And I just, I mean, that's really where, that was the first part of where I think I let her down,

just letting my insecurities run off leash when we were having conversations surrounding that and then the second part if if there was anything said about the ring i should have stepped up and said this is this is how i feel or this is what i'm interpreting this as is that the same understanding you have and i know it sounds like so easy and like such a obvious thing I could have done. But you know, like I, I was just really weak and like, that's, I'm like as ashamed of that as what I actually did like a couple of days later. Rachel definitely deserves better than everyone does. I appreciate you saying that. Let's talk about the night of your mistake. How did you get yourself in a situation where that even was possible? Yeah. I mean, I, I just went out with friends and you know i i was feeling a little in the dumps you know like it was another one of those

like uh we were giving each other space things so we hadn't talked in a couple days and uh you know just i was getting attention and i mean there's just like not even like it's like it sucks for me to have to say this because it's like so shameful and like i'm so not proud like it's like it sucks for me to have to say this because it's like so shameful and like i'm so not proud of it but like i just kind of gave in like i just you know like i just leaned in and i you know we we kissed and that wasn't fair to that girl either that wasn't considered of her feelings at all like she doesn't want to be wrapped up in any of this and i just like i i did it and i realized really quick, like this, I don't know what the future holds for me or Rachel, but I know this is not who I am and this is not what

I should be doing. So I got out of there and it was pretty haunting. We, you know, we talked, me and Rachel, I mean, talked the next day. Did you tell her right away? No, I didn't. And that, that's, I think like as big of a mistake as what I actually did. Because I think... What was going through your head? Like, I mean, this is selfish and I don't stand by it at all. And biggest regret outside of

actually doing it was not telling her right away. I should have told her the day after, hands down, Rachel deserves all that time back and I can't give it to her. And all I can do is tell her I'm really sorry. And like, I just, I really wish that I could give that time back to her. But, uh, you know, I just, at the time it just really felt like, you know, the relationship was kind of checked out of, and I just, I didn't want, I mean, like I, I didn't want to handle it kind of like publicly and all that like I just I felt like if we were checking out like you know and I knew it was a one-time thing I mean like then the the following weeks I you know I took therapy way more seriously because I was like okay what why did I find this toxic outlet like this is shameful this is not who I want to believe I am

and I won't believe that's who I am like shameful. This is not who I want to believe I am. And I won't believe that's who I am. Like, it's a low character moment for sure. Worst thing I could have done to somebody in a relationship who I really, really loved. You know, like I avoided situations like that could have put me in the same shoes, drinking, you know, like hanging out with that kind of like, you know, just friend group in those situations. Like, you know, like I did all the steps I should have been doing before my mistake, because then I would have had like a healthy, you know, healthy progression to get back on track in my own head and handling my own insecurities. So, um, didn't tell her right away and time just kind of kept going along. And me and Rachel would talk every day. We, we kind of put together a game plan of like, okay, do we want this to work?

After you cheated or kissed the girl. I cheated. Why didn't you think of just breaking up with her? Well, I mean, I actually, I did hear you guys, I think it was on Instagram or something. I heard you were kind of, that was a debate. Was I talking shit about you? No.

Sorry. I mean, that doesn't make sense. No, you're just in the. You guys did, yeah. I think when you were saying like, wouldn't it have been better not to tell anyone like if you were if you were my friend would you say like i would have told you i would have told you like probably just break up with her and see like i i thought of a lot about that because like like afr cut pretty deep and the actual breakup i was like i mean it's it's weird um you know like i've never i've never felt like

that before it was um a dark place like beyond how i could actually like describe and i don't want to because i can already feel like a little emotion coming up so we're gonna avoid that but um yeah like i mean obviously if you saw a crystal ball and you knew that was your future you you kind of think but i mean that just that that would have been so unfair to rachel to just break up with her after i did something foul and not give her like i mean like she she was owed the truth and there was just there's no way i could see that playing out that like would have been fair i hear you saying i guess if like maybe before i made them but like even then like i i loved her and i didn't you know even like till the day we showed up at that house to you know talk it out and it just ended in a breakup like head over heels in love

with her so all right so back to where you said you were you guys were having some sort of plan and right you guys were communicating about fixing whatever issue guys you guys were facing yeah so her and i just kind of like we we had like a very healthy talk um we we had been talking the previous days and it was uh like it was better like we were starting to like kind of open up a little bit more and we requested things of each other and we picked a date where we were going to like see each other in person so from that point on you know having that that day we were going to see each other in person even if like you know i had to go sleep on the couch or something like that until we could really get back to being 100%, I just had something to look forward to in the relationship. And that was huge to me.

And after that, I mean, our trajectory and largely, almost solely because of the work she put in. And she said that, and I hope she knows, like, I really appreciate that about her because she put in a lot of work and it got us to such an amazing place. That's why when that, I mean, that's essentially, and this is selfish again, I should have told her right away, but that's where I like the guilt really started to take over because she was just being so amazing, like the best partner I could ever describe to somebody. And that's when you decided to tell her? Yeah. So one of the things, and in hindsight, like this was kind of just being like a little needy, but before I made my mistake, like there was something I asked of her, like in the sense of like showing affection. So like I said, I'm like more of a words of affirmation guy at times. And she, she would do these, these things where she just like randomly text me, like, love you in the middle of the day.

And I'd like, love that. That would melt me. So she was, she was being amazing. We had like an in-person meetup and it went better than I could have ever like described. Like it was just so fun and we were back and it was just like, we were rock solid. I was like, I'm going to be with her forever. And that's where it like really started to dawn on me. Like, you know, like the voices in your head, they're like, you guys can make it through this. You should tell her the truth. Like you, you owe her the truth. Like you guys can make it through anything. Like she's, she's going to be here forever. You guys will get through this. Like, just, just tell her. And like, we, we, you know, like, like I said, we were like a little, like we were recovered, but she said, she sent that to me the day i told her and when i

got that like i mean i'm telling you like the guilt saying you what she said like we didn't i went surfing that morning and i'm telling like the guilt like i literally like remember being like on a wave thinking about it like i was on like a big phone board so i was like not doing much but you know like i'm riding there and i'm riding away feeling the guilt i really like like i just like i really want to tell her like and then um you know so we didn't talk till i don't know like it was maybe like noon at that point but we talked the night before like we at that point we were on the phone at least every day an hour like at least there was one day we talked on the phone so long i thought like verizon would be like hey did you know and was that a stark something up was

that a stark difference than before like were you missing days in the past uh just during that one time when we were giving each other space we always texted a lot before did you guys ever miss like a happy couples weekend uh Yeah. There was one planned. Did you cancel or she cancel it? I think it was more mutual in the sense that she had been coming off a really gnarly press week. And I could just tell she just wanted to be home, kind of detox. I was trying to be as empathetic to her situation as I could. And I totally could understand.

They were flying her all over the country it was like constant and like where it looks fun you probably know like that's exhausting but at the i mean it sounds like you've done a lot of work on on focusing how you could have or should have been more empathetic at the time did that fuck with you a little bit or did you did it take a lot of emotional energy to like convince yourself not to freak out well yeah i mean it wasn't so much as like that one getting like like called off that that like was totally understandable she was exhausted and i wanted to be like a good supporting partner to that and understanding it was it was more like we didn't have one like a nut like oh okay we'll just do next week or like you know two weeks from now like it was kind of I just like, we can't do it this weekend. And like that, that was like, okay, breathe.

Like, that's totally understandable. It wasn't until like a week after where we like set a date and then like, then you get something to look forward to. So like, then you're like, okay, like breathe, like just you, you have that thing to look forward to. But then you're like okay like breathe like just you you have that thing to look forward to but like i mean i looked forward to those so much like so yeah i mean it was a bummer not seeing her but like i and i i would hang out with rachel of like shoes at the time like in the worst mood ever but like people need their space and i i wish i like looking back on it that was like super insecure of me that that trigger you know like or you know hurt my feelings at all because like i was like talking the talk saying like oh i totally understand no worries but then i act out like that's that's not fair to anybody and that was

pretty weak and you know it's not cool to how much did the show i mean even though you were like the fucking i'm all in guy when you got engaged at any point like watching the show back or things like that did the the bizarreness of i can bachelor world start fucking with you did that ever make you question the authenticity of the relationship absolutely not okay what was the catalyst for you taking that time you say like there was just that one chunk of time where you weren't talking you were taking space was it the ring conversation that was the catalyst for that? Or like what happened for you not to be talking for a few days? I just, I could tell that like there was just a lot of stress on the relationship and I was worried I was coming off really needy because I was like, like I've said, like I was super insecure. Like

seeing everything back was a million times harder than I could have ever imagined. And it just like, like me putting added pressure, like I saw myself doing it at the time, like I at least was that self reflective to be like, okay, maybe I need to give her space. Like that's the hardest thing ever for me to do, because I'm more of like a let's tackle our issues thing. But like that really can be like such an amazing thing for a relationship to like have that confidence to take it back a step and just be like she's gonna find her way home like just let her let her find it herself and she did i mean i just messed up and you know just being a piece of shit it was like it was like a scene or a movie where it's just like you you set a bomb to like blow the whole house up and then

all of a sudden you realize like wait we have to we made up but wait i have a bomb going off to defuse the bomb it's like it's like you've never seen the movie what about bob no oh my god he's like the bombs are in the house i don't know sorry but uh yeah so i mean just just to wrap up my best but anyways why i told her like i i got the text that day like she said like randomly like love you and we we at that point weren't texting that much we talked on the phone a ton but like when i saw that i was just like oh my god like i need i need to tell her and that phone call that night was like three hours and i mean like me and rachel had this like amazing talent to talk about nothing for hours. But at the tail end of that, it started to come up because like other contestants were

having like issues with like ex-girlfriends and stuff. And it felt like, okay, like. Like Nate. Nate, yeah. I didn't know he had issues. I don't have a TikTok. No, but was it the, I mean. Who else?

Yeah, it was Nate, right? Yeah. Well, I mean. Well, and Eric. Yeah, Eric ended up having some, but I didn't know about that at the time. No, so it, and like, you know, love those dudes. I'm sure there's a lot to their stories too. Where was I?

So, so like that kind of stuff started coming up and like, you know, like I, I didn't tell her like the entirety of it right away, which like in hindsight, like I absolutely should have, but like in hindsight, I should have told her the day after it happened or the second after um because i didn't want to waste like a second of her time but what'd you tell her so at first i i said like oh you know like that like i kind of led this girl on the other night and then she was like well what do you mean how and then like like we were kind of like that was kind of weak no it was so weak like trust me i'm like not standing by that at all that was so lame and honestly i would be like if someone was like so i led someone on last night i'd be like what the fuck does that mean well okay okay but in in like artifact like stuff in our like i was getting

i was getting roasted i think at one point for like watching like somebody's story on instagram that i didn't know and i was like i don't know like i get like these followers and when i see the little red you know the little red circle, I click them occasionally. Like I was getting like, sure. So, so like, that's, that was the point I was like, like in my mind, like I was just kind of being a chicken and like, I didn't, you know, and then we, as the conversation progressed, she was listening really well at a certain point. I was like, okay, like if I tell her now, like there's a chance of this working out but like like you you need to tell her now like because you've already kind of like done this weird like set

the stage that sounds like bullshit to her so i told her i was like look this is and i i'm sure it was like an extra added like complexity that like we were in such an amazing place but this happened when that wasn't our reality so i told her like you know hey like when like like i just fucked up i went and i like kissed this other girl and we were like we were in a bad spot and i like don't like i don't want to condone what i did at all it's just like like i messed up like like but i like love you so much and like i want us to get past this like how and um you know she was just like very maturely, just like, let, let me think about this. And then, you know, a couple of days went by and I was always in team,

like, look, take as much time as you need. I want this to work out. Like, I want you, I want absolutely like for us to, to make it through this. So like, if you need a week, if you need a month, like take what you need. Like I I'm the one who messed up like i can't ever talk about like how somebody like handles how i like how they process me fucking up you know like that that would be super hypocritical of me so where it ended up landing is there was a house meetup scheduled and uh i was notified the day before that there were going to be cameras there so wait you you told her and then did you guys keep talking about this or what like what after you like told her the full truth like what happened uh so i so i told her the full truth and she's you know like it was like okay

i need to process this and that that i was like okay absolutely please do that all right she needed to process and then and like i talked the next day or did you know, no, no communication. I just, I sent a text every day, like just trying to be like, like not overbearing, not like, Oh my God,

like, like please. Oh my God. Like I was just like, look, I know I messed up. Like I'm here to talk whenever you need, but take as much time as you need.

Like I, I just am all about this and I'm so sorry. And so, so eventually like it was like, okay, let's try to work this out in person. And when I heard that my eyes lit up, cause I was like, okay, like we're going to work this out.

And then like, obviously like everyone kind of filled me in, like there were going to be cameras there. And at first that, that was a little like, okay, okay. Like I'm a little bit freaking out, but you know, we met on the show. So I was like, okay, I don't know who wanted them there, but there was just the reality of it.

So she got off the phone with you and called the producer, I'm guessing? Probably not. I'm sure she reached out to her people as she had every right to do, and I don't know who that was involved. who that was she reached out to them that it would make sense that she reached out to people from the show to let them know what you did i i totally i i can't mind reader um like i can't i can't project anything uh if i were in her shoes i would have been like

i would have told somebody yeah well yeah i mean like like i said again like i i made the mistake like how however you know we move forward from there like i i when i told the truth i knew i was like to some degree like did you losing negotiation power like how it was handled did you speak with her at all whether on the phone or facetime or in person before you saw her when you walked into that house with cameras a couple texts yeah not a not a not on the phone but i mean neither here nor that like the the general consensus of when we were going into that house meetup was we're not giving up on this we're coming in to work on it so that was your mind frame that when you walked into that you didn't think it was going to be some breakup situation your your mindset i mean i literally

i thought i thought i really hoped and thought i tried to go in as confident as i could like i thought we were gonna get to a point where it's like look you effed up but by being you not you yeah yeah like i i thought like i was hoping that we'd land it like look you know you effed up but you're gonna make it up to me because like you know i've i've seen how great we can be together and like sure you know like we're gonna we're gonna see if up to me because like, you know, I've seen how great we can be together and like, you know, like we're gonna see if we can get through this. Like, and I mean, I've lost like a lot of sleep, what if-ing like on that house meetup I really have.

Cause it's like, yeah, like I watched it back and obviously there was some stuff taken out. There was some stuff like, but generally speaking, like I look back on it and I'm like, you know, like, what if I did this? What if I said that, what if I didn't say this? So it's been really tough, because when you go down that rabbit hole,

you could what if yourself out of a lot of sleep, which I have, and it's just tough, because I would have loved for us to get past that, but what I did wasn't cool, and I totally respect your decision. What was the reasoning for the journal i didn't think it was that big of a deal there were other stronger opinions on the journal what do you guys think yeah seriously i mean you guys can diss me i can take it i don't

know i it was definitely i didn't think it would be such a point of discrepancy amongst viewers if i'm being honest because i really didn't think it was that big of a deal but what was the episode we were recapping it on and it was like there was a we had a full debate of like what sheena hated it yeah sheena was like it was all the negative stuff it was all like see bad stuff about rachel nick was like fine with it why did you bring a journal so so i i was flustered for sure and i wanted it to work out. I did. I wanted to be as articulate as I could and not be like stumbling over my words, which I did anyways. But I mean, like, it's so funny that like people are like, oh, you keep a list of like mean things about your fiance. And I'm like, there are so many nice things written in there about her. Like, I mean, you could really

like follow the path of like the relationships trajectory. And my therapist was just saying like, journal your thoughts so you don't think about them all day. So I could like focus at work. So when it was really hard and like, you know, we were having tough conversations, like I was just writing those down. So I wouldn't think about them all day and be like, Oh wait, but like, did she mean this? Or, you know, like, did I mean this or all that? Like, I was just like, get them out of your head and onto paper. So yeah, I mean, they were, and that, that's another thing I, what if like, I'm like, well, like now that I'm watching it back, that clearly like created contentious, like, like a contentious environment. And that's certainly not what I was going for, but like, I mean, yeah, like if, if I knew it was going to

go over like that, I was not, I should not have brought that. Like, I was just trying to articulate like my thoughts and what I was going through the best I could because I was just really frazzled. I mean, some would say I looked sweaty and on drugs. So the internet did suggest that. Yeah, that's crazy. Who were you talking to on the phone? Were you on drugs? Were you on drugs? No, I wasn't on drugs.

I don't even think I had a drink for like weeks. Which ones? were you on drugs no i wasn't on drugs i don't even think i had a drink for like which ones and or not weeks days you know obviously because i was just people were worried about me who was the friend that you kept uh uh so he's one of my best or yeah who it wasn't so who were you on the phone with so i called one of my closest friends uh he had kind of been my uh you know my like support system through the whole thing and he was like one of the the biggest voices like you can go in and fix this like who like like you can do this like like from so went in it didn't go super smoothly i unbuttoned my shirt i threw my mic off and uh i called him

and i was like i was like like i just i i don't think we're like arriving at the right spot. Like, what do I do? I'm sorry for laughing. I imagine their friend be like, you can fix this. And then Tino out there be like, yeah, no, bro. what to do like yeah like i i just like i would have spent a week there like if it meant like like no matter what we were talking about no matter what i was just like we can talk a long time like as long as we were moving towards like you know it seemed like oh like we both really want this and it was just it was tough to see through like how frazzled sleep deprived insecure i was like feeling at that time. So called him kind of because I needed a voice of reason. And like, yeah, I mean, watching that back, it was like so ridiculous,

you know, like, because then I walked around the house because the mics, like once they saw that I ripped it off, they like started following me. So I was like walking so they couldn't hear me. Was a lot cut out and what parts do you wish

would have been kept in? Because from a viewer's perspective, it was like they're on the couch, Tino leaves, he comes back, he leaves. Like, it just felt like we missed a lot. How long in real time do you think the conversation was? And then,

maybe an hour and a half? An hour and a half. Two hours? Two hours. What, yeah, is there anything, like Allie asked, that you wish you would have made the cut in room floor?

We understand that not everything gets to, but. No, I mean, I was just bummed we broke up. Like, I don't care like if like like i don't have a side in this like i i messed up and she had every right to break up with me for that like i no i mean i just i wish wish like we didn't televise everything what did you think of afr uh that was mean it wasn't very nice i don't know um no i mean like again it just yeah i don't know i mean. It wasn't very nice. I don't know. Um, no, I mean like, again, it just, yeah, I don't know. I mean like, I don't ever think about, I think I have like disassociation with that. Cause I like, I don't remember it. What was going on in your head when Avin walked

out? I think I was just kind of like, and this is like me, like kind of guessing, because again, like I don't really remember it. I think I was just kind of like, why am I still out here? Like, I was like, like they could have a cute moment. Like, why am I still out here? Like, I was like, they could have a cute moment. Like, why am I here? Like at that point we'd been broken up for a month. Like I really, like I was at war with myself even going to AFR. Like, I mean, like the pressure was on to go, but it also was like, I was like, man, like I, like, I feel really bad. Like I told this girl that I messed up and I kissed another girl. We broke up and she has to see me four weeks later. Like that's torture for her. So, and like, likewise for me, like I was not like looking for it. Like there was no way AFR was going to be like

a nice look for me. And I landed at like, okay, you have to go just get up there and say you're sorry and tell everyone how much you were like i wanted to tell because me and rachel weren't talking at all there was no like toxic texts or anything or like drunk phone calls between us after the breakup we clean break you know like i like when i was going through the stages of the breakup like i really did land at like like a lot of self-reflection where i was like man like i really appreciate so much that she did for me and like i i really wish at my dark times i could have like leaned more on that because i for me and like i i really wish at my dark times i could have like leaned more on that because i i don't think i would have gone like like with a

toxic outlet but so that was like one of the things like i i wanted to do at afr like really make sure like i told her on this world stage like look i appreciate you and there were things that like and like you guys I lived it it was like my life and you could probably attest to this too on your journey but they like the way Rachel treated me and shined like on our journey was like so amazing and she was so good to me and it just it was so not right how it ended and what I did that I wanted to like say publicly, like, look, I really appreciate like everything. Like this is certainly not how I wanted it to end. Like I, I wanted to be with her forever, but like the time we spent together, like means so much. It

still does. Like even after AFR, like I can still appreciate like her setting the bar really high on how a woman can treat somebody in a relationship. So did you have any frustration with Rachel about AFR or was that more your frustration with the show? Oh, I was way more frustrated at the show. Like I, like I said before, like if, you know, like if Rachel wanted even to come out in front of me, like I can't really say much. I was the one who cheated. So like, you know, she has every right to be hurt. Like I'd be hurt, but you know, how, how like we all process things is different. That's what makes us individuals. That's, you know, like I went to rock bottom when I felt hurt and I went and kissed some other girl. So I don't, I can't pass judgment on that. The show, like, I mean, I would have thought with them

knowing how like much I'd been struggling, like wouldn't, wouldn't go there like, or do something like that. I mean, like the whole day before i like locked myself in the bathroom of the trailer that they put me up in so i wouldn't have to do b-roll or anything like that i was like i'm not doing it i was like you know i was crying in the bathroom because i just like it was overwhelming being there and that was like pretty taxing sorry man yeah ask me something funnier let's get off this topic. How about we do this? We'll take a break. We'll do texting office hours and we'll give some people some texting advice. How's that sound?

Yeah, let's do that. And then we'll come back with Tino for some final thoughts. You're fine. Okay. And we'll come back. I want to know if you've talked with Avon. I want to know kind of where your heart is, what's next, but we'll do that after texting office hours after we, uh, we get things fun in the

meantime, while, uh, uh, while we're bringing our people up, go buy my book. All right. So texting office hours, you ready? Yes. We'll liven it up and we'll come back with some final thoughts. If you've talked to Avon, do you, uh, miss Rachel? Would you want her to give you a second chance? These are all questions we need to ask. I'm sorry. We did. I have to do my job. Want her to give you a second chance. These are all questions we need to ask. I'm sorry. I have to do my job.

Do you guys think he's torturing me? You think he's going full AFR on me? Nice to meet you. This is my friend. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. This is my friend, Tino. He's going to be helping us out. We got Allie and Amanda in the room, too.

Hey. Great. All right. I'm sure you know the drill. I'm going to be like, well well what's up and you're gonna give me a fake wait wait time wait i actually don't know the drill because my friend signed me up for this like i i'm sorry i don't listen but i'm just she wanted me to tell my story uh all right so i'm gonna be like what's up and then give me a fake name okay and be like i'm beth

whatever your fake name and then your real age and then you don't need to use other names. Like you can refer to him, she, they, like, or, you know, you don't need to like make up a fake name and overcomplicate it. Just, uh, we want to protect people's identities. Okay. Wait. So I'm saying my fake name and then my age. Yeah.

You're real age. How's it going? Hi. Um, my name's Kat. I'm 25 years old. And I, um, went on a date with this guy who's moving way too quick. And so basically, I just need help with how to end it and let him down kind of easy because we see each other at the gym. So we're definitely going to run into each other. Okay. All right.

Okay. Is there any relevant backstory we need to go? Did he ask you out at the gym? is there any relevant backstory we need to go like did you did he ask you out at the gym like no okay so basically um we matched on hinge one time like a while back and then i saw him at the gym and i messaged him and i was like hey like i think we match i know i feel like it's kind of weird but um he was cute so i was like whatever so he um messaged me back he asked me out on a date we went on our first date it was great The second date he wanted right the next day, which I thought was kind of weird. So I was like, okay, whatever. We went on the second date. And then the third date was the following week.

And we were driving home. He was taking me to my house. And then he asked me to be his girlfriend already. And I was like, what the heck? So after two dates, he asked you to be his girlfriend? Yeah. What did you say? I didn't even say anything because i was so scared i was like i and we didn't even kiss either yet at that

point so i i i honestly the ride home was so awkward i didn't even know what to say i was taken aback and then finally when i got to my house i was like um i just think we're moving a little too fast right now and i think we should just kind of slow it down. And then he didn't really say much and it just got kind of awkward. Okay. So I'm curious, had he not said that, like, what were you, how were you feeling after date two before he went? I actually really liked him. Our dates were great. Our conversation always slowed. And when he asked me to be his girlfriend i that's when i was like okay no i don't think i am feeling you the same as i did okay this is this is just for me this is just

like for fun because like it's a really in real in life we know that it's a it's weird to be put in that situation like it's a super awkward situation i totally empathize where you're like, I don't know. I just want to get out of this fucking car. I totally get that. Just hearing that you up until that point liked him, I definitely think, we'll call it a red flag that he did that. Yes. Major red flag. I would have loved for you at that point to say, hey, listen, I've had a really good time with you in the first two dates. But like I said, you wanted to be my girlfriend felt a little fast. Well, I told him that. We FaceTimed the next day. And he was like, hey, how are you feeling after what I asked you? And I was like, honestly, I just feel like that was way too fast. I feel like we

still need to continue to get to know each other because I'm interested in you and I want to get to know you more, but I'm not at the point where I want to be your girlfriend yet. And he would just get really defensive. And he would be like, well, why don't you want to be my girlfriend? Like you could still be my girlfriend and we could still get to know each other. And I was like, but I want to be in a relationship with someone where I basically almost fully know them. You know, I don't want to still feel weird.

So again, you don't have at that point, the fact that he got defensive and like, you know. That was another red flag. That to me, that's the red flags for him to get defensive. To me, that's the red flag. Next time something like that happens. And I don't even if you want to do this with this guy for fun, I would love to know right off the bat. Like, what are five things that you like?

Why do you want to date me? Like, what are things specifically five things that you like why do you want to date me like what are things specifically about me that you like you know because i just do or we're cool or you're fun is not an answer i did ask him a similar question and he did say he just says he's never felt this way about a girl this fast and i was like oh that could kind of be a basic answer a little bit yeah your gut was great yeah your gut yeah no and then like if if a guy next time someone says something like that you go no like what it is about me like what it is about me like actual tangible things like what have you learned about me on our two dates that you want in your relationship that you haven't had in the

past oh that's a good question. Yeah. Wow. Well, also on the FaceTime, he asked if I loved him. And that's when I got really scared. On the FaceTime? Yes. It's like really weird. Yeah.

So you don't need to do that with this guy. But in the future, I think questions like that are lean on those in the future. Okay. Because I could imagine maybe guys, I'm sure this isn't the first time a guy has tried to move quickly. Oh, it is the first time. That's why I got so scared because this has never happened to me before.

Yeah. I didn't even know what to say half the time when he talked to me because he was just telling me weird shit. And I was like, okay, I don't know what to say back to you. Cause I don't want to lean him on. But I also don't want to be a bitch and not say anything at all.

How do we say goodbye to this guy? Oh, God. I love these. You have a nice little paragraph and you just say. A paragraph? I don't know. You don't want to just be blunt. I don't know.

Round it out. Make it soft. Is there a way just to like i want you to get your fitness in i don't want you to show it and like adjust your life but like is there a way i'm scared that he's going to um see me at the gym and then be like hey like can we talk well okay i have to tell you about what happened this morning so this whole week i had a friend come into town this past few days and we didn't really talk, but then he randomly FaceTime me one day and we were talking for a little bit. And then he kept trying to call me

throughout the week. And I was like, Hey, I have a friend in town. Like, I don't want to be busy talking to you. Like I want to focus on him, whatever. So finally, when my friend left, he kept trying to call me and I was just trying to let it let him down easy by just being like, oh, I'm busy. Like, I can't really talk right now until this morning. He texted me and he's like, yo, you need to make time for me or we're going to be done. And I just had to let him down. And I was like, OK, well, I just think it's best we both go our separate ways. He wrote, yo, meet me today to talk or i'm done with this what and i

was i was about to meet up with him absolutely not right so i was like okay we have to be done but yeah holy yeah i read it sorry busy what's up like that's true dramatic reading tino you can be her i'll be him for everyone's sake oh god i'll be bad guy here. Alright, so you're blue, Tino. If you want to play a little character in it. I want to start at today at 10.54am. Stage directions. So I'm her? Yeah. You start with

sorry, busy. Sorry, busy. What's up? I call. I'm reading it exactly. I call because I want to talk to you. Not just a quick question. I will text you if I have a quick question. What? Hit me back when you have 30 minutes. I hate this guy.

I thought that was aggressive. It was very aggressive. So aggressive. Yeah. If it has anything to do with us, I don't want to deal with it right now. I have a friend in town who I don't get to see often and I want to focus my time on him.

I don't want to have these conversations in front of him and make him feel weird. So if you want to text me time on him. I don't want to have these conversations in front of him and make him feel weird. So if you want to text me about it, that's fine. If not, you'll have to wait till he leaves. Okay, then he writes, when I like someone, I enjoy talking to them and seeing them. I was being respectful of your time with him by not asking to see you in person during this time.

I figured a call was fine. I guess not. Just call me for like 10 minutes, none serious conversation just to say hi and talk about a plan for monday he literally just said he yelled at you because i have yeah okay sorry you know i'm at dinner right now and then going to the movies and then he writes yo he didn't write yo he just said no exclamation point yo meet me today or talk or i'm done now he wants

to talk it sounds like he's gonna murder you literally i don't even think we need to text him block him block i don't even think we need to text him i'm sorry can we just acknowledge that okay well in that case i honestly think it's just best we go our separate ways and him like reacting to that and then his phone his phone he has he has his phone on silent notifications. He's not even taking calls. He went off the grid immediately after. I'm scared he's going to put a tracking device under my car or something. Well, listen, this guy is pretty aggressive,

and I think you should block him. I don't think there's any text to send to this guy. He's not thinking rationally. But what happens when I see him at the gym, and he tries to talk to me or like, what if he, like, do I say, if we walk past each other, do I say hi? No, you don't say anything. You act like you don't know each other. Ultimately, I think you're going to be fine.

But like, I think it's always better to be safe than sorry. This is the classic kind of guy who gives himself a ton of credit for like being vulnerable like there's a lot of guys who i can see that who aren't good at being vulnerable and many to work on it a lot of guys are good at being vulnerable and it's or it's a work in progress and there's a type of guy who like who's terrible at it but maybe wants to even right and and when and then they give a little something and they want all the validation in the world for them to just open up a little bit and this guy thinks you oh that's that's the disconnect you know it's like he feels something he hasn't felt before and now he's made

it your responsibility to validate him for like and it puts so much pressure on me yeah but yeah he thinks you owe him something listen i think that's why i asked before i think i don't know i think you're gonna be fine but maybe just take a couple weeks away from the gym oh my god that's so hard i guess i could go to a different one yeah listen you you know this guy we don't know him but like i think maybe just let things simmer simmer and then maybe just do you have friends who go to this gym like do you maybe yeah my friends do yeah bring some companions. Again, I think this is overkill, but better safe than sorry.

And at least he'll feel comfortable. And my guess is he, more than likely, he's going to chill the fuck out. He's embarrassed. This is all a heat in the moment. My guess is he's going to feel real stupid about how he acted. I kind of hope he does. But on the off chance he's this shitty like just take a few weeks and then go with some friends and assess the situation i also think usually if you

say like the word uncomfortable be like hey you're making me really uncomfortable like if he does try to talk to you like reaching out after the fact to me like hey it makes me really uncomfortable that you're trying to talk to me when we've agreed um like nothing else is moving on like i think usually that's kind of like a word that's like read the room like it's not just like annoying you're like actively making me feel like i can't be in spaces that i want to be in do you think there's any i'm just asking you two women do you think there's any justification for her to send a follow-up text right now just to point out how no right no that would be like if you try to talk to her at the gym then i think we should block him i think block him and then if follow-up text right now just to point out how no right no that would be like if he tried to

talk to her at the gym then i think we should block him i think block him and then if she's if he tries to talk to her at the gym tell him in person you're making me feel uncomfortable like leave it very brief because i don't want to open up any sort of chain of communication between the two of them yeah oh that's good okay and if you tell him at the gym verbally you are making me uncomfortable not only do you like put that in his mind, you alert people around you. He's in a public space. Yeah. And then also you can tell your gym if this dude is like harassing you when you're trying

to work out. Like, again, this is all like really far down the line. Hopefully it never gets to this point. But like, that's ridiculous. You should be able to work out. I think he'll probably get embarrassed and he'll probably avoid the gym as well. And he'll probably feel in shame. But on the off chance he doesn't.

Escalates. And this escalates. Yes. I think that's what we could do. Okay. Wow. But block him. Okay.

Block him on social media. Unfollow him on all the apps. Go off the grid. He actually doesn't have social media, which I kind of liked at first. I think being off social media completely i kind of liked at first but no i think it i think being off social media completely is people give way too much like green flags for that works for some people i can see that yeah i think it's fine but like people act like you know like it's the coolest thing yeah or it's just like i don't know maybe there's fucking weird

um who knows but i just think it's too much credit is given all right well we feel good I don't know. Maybe they're just fucking weird. Who knows? But I just think it's too much credit is given. All right. Well, we feel good. We have a good game plan? Yes. Going to block him right after this. Yeah, let's block him.

Sorry I had to go through that. Yeah. It sounds like you handled everything perfectly, though. Like you trusted your gut. I felt like I did. Yeah. You did a great job. Yeah.

Thank you. All right. Well, keep us posted. We'd love a follow-up. how things, if anything, escalated. Obviously, hopefully they didn't. If you were able to get back to the gym, we'd appreciate a follow-up. Of course. Thank you so much for your time.

All right. Take care. All right. Bye. Bye. How's it going? Hi. I'm Liz, and I'm 25.

How can we help Liz? So I'm looking to get help to draft a text to shoot my shot with a guy that I went on with a date a year ago. Okay. Why do we want to shoot our shot with a guy we went on a date with a year ago? So I went on a date with this guy a year ago and he lives in a different state. So we met up in the middle and we had a really good date. And I felt like we really connected and I've gone on a lot of hinge dates. And I often don't feel like I ever want to see them again. But I was really excited to plan a second date with him. So we texted for a while.

And then when we were trying to actually plan the second date, it was really hard to actually find a time because we were living so far apart. So in the end, he ended up saying that he like that we, that he didn't think this was going to work out and we haven't talked since. But then the other day I had unfollowed him on Instagram, but I was still friends with him on Snapchat. And the other day, I watched his story for the first time in probably six months and saw that he had a geotag with the same city that I live in. So I was curious if he had moved to the same city and I cross referenced his Hinge profile and he had updated that location as well.

So I thought, why not? If I'm still thinking of him a year later, why not see if he's interested? All right. So what we know, do we know if he's moved back or we think he's possibly moved back or is this in the area? I think he's in the area because of his hinge profile location is updated and like he's posting consistent stories in this location. I assume he's living here. Okay. What do we think? I think we lead with that you saw his Snapchat story because while I appreciate the cross referencing and I would have done the same, we can't let him know that we're that invested. So I think we just make it seem more casual than it is. And these texts you sent are just from like when you guys were talking way back in the day. Yeah. That was from a year ago. So you could like

the last one is him saying October 19th, 2021. Yeah, it was like more than a year, almost a year ago at this point. All right. So he wrote, Hey, I have to cancel. I need to take a meeting this Thursday after work. I'm sorry. I honestly don't think this is going to work. And I'm not the ghosting type. So just being straight with you. I wish you all the best. I appreciate the honesty. I wish you the best to you responded. I mean, for him good for you this was a very like he was direct that's for sure i you could send a text that's like hey saw on your snapchat story you're in whatever place uh i would like to see you just being straight with you you know do you think he's really gonna get the reference well it's gonna be right the last time he deleted it if his phone clears him. It's been a year. What about just DMing him or messaging him on Snapchat and saying, hey, I

noticed your geotag. I don't know if that's creepy, though. I feel like if you post something, you could just very casually be like, hey, how long are you in town for? That's what I was thinking, too. Nailed it. Yeah. I don't know maybe no what would you do what does she have to lose nothing well to be clear we have nothing to

lose we're just trying to think of the best possible option and it's a good to remember here that like as i think we said this last week with kit and the caller who you need to be zero emotionally invested in this. Like, you are truly shooting your shot. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is a half court last second shot, you know, because, you know, he was pretty clear. It wasn't working for him. I don't think it was just the distance.

You know, you have to assume it wasn't just the distance. Like, as much fun as you had, I don't think it was matched on his end. If just, just, that's the safe honest response of what you should be thinking is as hard as it is i still think you should shoot it you have nothing to lose i just don't love the idea of her make it seem like you're in the you're in the i don't know what it's the most casual way of doing it what if he doesn't even have her number saved and then she texts him and he has to like either ask who is this or not respond because you don't want to ask who is this and then see the name and not text back because that's even worse

all right so i just love i always love randomly reaching out to someone and striking up a conversation like hey i saw you in the area i don't think she i don't think you should reach out and be like hey i saw you in the area we should get together you know i don't think you should go that hard to the paint with your first message i think he i think we should first see if he's interested in even replying what if it's okay let's say it's like a sculpture garden in this city she says i love this place or like you know what i mean like comment on the post what and then him being like yeah it's great what is he posting how long is that uh it was a sculpture is it still up does he have any current stories? Let me see.

I think before it was like him. It was like him in nature with his dog or something. It wasn't super descriptive. She knows his name. I have a story right now. Like Nellie living her best life. I mean, I think also you've waited a year. We can wait a few more days for the right story he posts on Snapchat. And then, yeah, kind of to Allie's point, you know, just reply to one of his stories and ask, you know, like, oh, that looks fun.

Like, what have you been up to? I would even just say, like, that looks fun. And if he's like, yeah, it was. Be like, how long are you in town for? See if he responds and then ask him a question. Because if he doesn't respond, you haven't put too much out there. No, that's fair originally i was thinking of straight up asking if he wanted to get together and then at the end saying i'm just trying to shoot my shot but it that may be

too direct you don't need to point out what you are doing you know so you clearly are shooting your shot uh especially if you were to like reach out to him for the first time in a year and be like do you want to get together you don't need to say i'm shooting my shot after that but to ali's point i think the safer way is let's just see if this guy's gonna reply to you and then from there see if you can get a dialogue if there's a couple messages like and again like oh and maybe he posts something that you recognize oh are you in the area then see if he replies if he says yes i would say hey i know things didn't i i think you need to acknowledge you can't just pretend that he didn't end things wouldn't you agree

tino yeah i don't know i mean like maybe i'm a little bit more cavalier about it but i i would have just like dm the snap story and so is he tagging the location or did you just recognize that his location must be on or something right but like did he tag it in his story or you just recognize that his geolocation must be on or something right but like did he tag it in his story or you just saw it like snapchat you can just see where people are i guess no like you can swipe through and there's different filters and then some of the filters have the name of the city so he tagged it like so people would know he was in that yeah or he just doesn't know it's on oh i mean i i like the how long are you in town for and then or like oh you're in town,

kind of start the convo and see how he responds. Yeah, I would keep it light at first, send something, see if he replies back. Oh, are you in town? Oh, I moved here. And then you say something like, hey, I know things that end up, you know, maybe throw a joke in there.

What's the joke? So you're saying you wanted to acknowledge like, oh, it didn't work out last time. I think you kind of, I mean, if, yeah, cause like if I, it's not easy to send the text that he did, you know, I'm not saying we should give a ton of credit for doing the bare minimum, but we live in a time where he even recognized that most people just the ghost, you went on how many dates with this guy? It was just one. Just one. And most times, again, it's sad that it's the reality, but the reality is when people

go on one date, they don't often take the time to even send the awkward text of, hey, listen, this isn't working out for me. I wish you all the best. Right? And so if I sent that and a year later got a random message from that same person be like, do you want to go out again? I'd be like, uh, okay, I guess we'll do this again. No, you know what I'm saying? Like, and granted, he could easily have changed his mind. You're basically hoping that you reach out to him in a time where

he's in a transitional period. Whatever reason he changed his mind about you a year ago, he's thinking, you know what, I did have a nice nice time and maybe he was hung up on a different girl then we have no idea you went on one date with him these are all the reasons why you should shoot your shot but you need to prepare yourself for the possibility that he very much knew that this you know this wasn't what he was looking for he went on one date he moved on and now you know he's good so yeah i think you not acknowledging it is kind of potentially like he's going to be like, okay. Yeah, maybe something like small, like, oh, I know it didn't work out last time. But like, you know, if it's a little bit easier now, I had a great time.

Yeah. Why don't we give him a go? Especially if he's new to the area. Was he from here? No, he was living like an hour away from the city. So he never came to where i was living very frequently all right so you could say something like you know like hey if you're especially if he's new here you know like hey i know what it's like to be new to a city i know like didn't work out all the time if

you work out last time but if you want to go grab a drink sometime i would be down you are potentially setting yourself up for like him trying to friend zone you. So if you do go on a date, you have to decide how clear you want him to think it's a date. But that could be a way for you to just kind of get to know him. You know, I wouldn't try to pretend that your intentions aren't to date him, but that is a way to maybe ease yourself back into his life. Yeah. What are your thoughts? I have to wait until the next story comes up, but I will lead with that.

I think we wait till, yeah, you've waited a year. Wait till he posts something that makes it kind of seem like you would naturally be curious, that you haven't been waiting around, you know, for the right post. Well, and it also, it's better for you that you have not jumped set up for success jumped on the first or second one that he's posted because now it doesn't look like oh the second he tagged the city you're like on it yeah you've seen several and now you're curious so like really the waiting is benefiting you yeah i agree with that yeah so wait till the right one and just real casual at first and see if he bites at all if he responds back there's a curiosity that he has.

Because he could easily ignore it. Yeah, that could very likely be what the end result is. And if it does, who cares? Good for you for shooting your shot. You don't even know if he has a girlfriend right now. Well, he's on Hinge. I saw his profile active, so I thought that was somewhat of a sign.

Maybe he's got three people he's already talking to. I don't all right do we have a good plan i think we have a good plan all right uh keep us posted we're dying to find out we want to know what was the picture that what was the post that you decided to reply to did he reply did you end up going out with him how did it go are you in love do we do we hate him these are all things is there a wedding is there a wedding you know did you find out he's a total douche bag all the good stuff all the possibilities are endless yes I will keep you guys updated

alright take care alright thank you she was adorable alright Tino let's finish this you got a good break alright how you feeling I'm good yeah that was a good that was a good you got a good break feel good yeah yeah alright how you feeling

I'm good that was that was sweet she was nice she was very nice yeah I hope it works out alright did you hear from Avon

after AFR I'm gonna jump right back into it alright you wanna ask me do you wanna do you wanna warm up yeah yeah

how about ask about my day how was your day it's fine it's fun this has been fun top favorite movie of all time oh man grand budapest hotel or 50 first dates for sure interesting yeah one of uh one of the bachelorette interview questions was like do you have a hidden talent and i go no and they're like well like you know todd he goes come on you gotta have something i said well i i think i'm better at watching 50 first dates than anyone else and he like everyone laughed and he goes why and i go i don't know i've probably seen it like a hundred times at this point it never gets old to

me it's 50 first dates do you like a good rom-com no just that one just that one okay i'm as strange as they say did you have you heard from avon yeahvin, so I don't know if there's any rumor, but Avin's a great dude. Avin's super nice and always straightforward and he's super accountable. Much like it says in the media, I don't think he knew I was going to be out there when he came out and he reached out the night of AFR where I think my phone was off because I was getting too many texts. It was overwhelming. But he texted me that night and just said, hey, I'm really sorry. Like, you know, that that was tough. And then we talked on the phone the next day, too. He's a class act, dude. I don't I don't think he was at all trying to, you know, posterize me i think he just went there with the intention of cheering up rachel because you know i mean seeing an ex after four weeks when it was a pretty crushing breakup like understandably would be hard on anybody are you still in love with rachel oh that's a it's a loaded one i really really loved rachel through the whole process and like i i still think about

her every day it's just like after everything that has transpired and i think i the the best way to put it is i've moved on i think we were just so not like i actually really didn't think you'd ask that but uh i think like in in the uh environment of the show we really really fell extremely in love and And it was something beautiful that I haven't experienced like that unique style of love because this is the most unique situation ever. But I think real life plays like a huge role in that. And I think there is somebody who's just more compatible for her out there. And that like guts me even two months after the breakup. But yeah, I mean, there's like if she ever needed something and needed to call me like i'd always answer i'll

always care about her and appreciate our time together and she set the bar really high for my future fiance and i really like appreciate the hell out of her but yeah like i think you know it's just time to move on yeah it makes sense. If we never got to see you, let's say after this interview, you disappear into your private life, and maybe you won't, I don't know. But what would you want my audience or the audience of Bachelor Nation or the world, what would you want your final thoughts, your lasting impression, what would you want people to think, I guess, of you or your intentions or just, you know, what you hope will

be the lasting impression people have of you? What's your hope? Well, the whole reason to do this show, it was like, I kind of thought about it and I'm like, okay, because I listened to Nate's and you guys did a phenomenal job. And I remember listening to Nate's and just being like, wow, like I wish and same with your book too because like you and Nate like just were so vulnerable and so human like it was so relatable and I think at the time when I made like my mistake and like really hurt Rachel I just like I was feeling so embarrassed and so alone and I would just love it if like somebody and it doesn't have to be somebody from the show that I wanted to make this is about is like a real authentic relationship as i could

because i think like even though this was televised it was like very similar to a lot of struggles that people have when they are dating somebody new that they like care about a lot but they don't know like exactly where the other camp is at that point in time and i just hope like if people listen to this guys or girls and they find themselves in that situation where they are feeling like, okay, where's this going? Is this going down? That anxious, that kind of, I just don't want them to feel alone or embarrassed. They know that at least they're not the only one whose insecurities get spiked by somebody else has some say say in your emotions and that's that's really hard for anybody to admit like especially when you're dating like i mean it was it was super hard for me to admit i wish yeah like i just really wish that you know maybe i could have called you or an aide or

somebody and like i don't want like a million calls no no offense to anybody but uh you know like i hope they listen to this show and like if they are feeling like that kind of insecurity they're like okay i'm not alone like and i hope like they kind of look at like okay how did tino look at this as an opportunity to grow and what's he doing and they don't have to do the same thing like nate nate's like an incredibly authentic guy and quite beautiful and very handsome he didn't need the toxic vice that i did even though like a lot of our struggles were probably pretty similar yeah so it like it showed me that like i have a uniqueness to my insecurities and outlets that i need to fix because it hurt there's collateral damage and i just hope like this kind of can start the process for like maybe some other

people to just kind of hear it and be like okay i'm not alone in feeling insecure when x y and z happens how can i fix it he's trying this maybe something else works yeah well i appreciate that thanks for uh reading my book by the way it's really good i appreciate the plug yeah yeah i um i want to get the audiobook too but like so when i read a hardcover i like read really slow but i remember everything but i like want to kind of like run it back but like it just takes so like i had i made it a mission to finish your book before this you finished it yeah i did yeah i was speed reading at the end for sure well not gonna lie like the uh the chapter is about like when you're in a relationship those hit a little too close to home so like i was speed reading through this but i should listen

like i should re-listen to them because i think it is really authentic good advice is there a world where we could see you at paradise in the future or have you sworn off bachelor nation i mean like i just i really i don't like i mean we all saw how sweaty i was so that's uh that's i'd be in a tough position there but um like at least at this moment, I really think, at least in Bachelor Nation terms, if it's not Rachel, it's nobody. But we'll kind of see. I mean, I think it's kind of how it should be.

It's only been two months. We'll give it time. We'll get you on there. I wouldn't bet money on that changing. That makes sense. Tino, you've been really generous with your time. We appreciate you coming on and sharing everything. It's not easy to own up to what you've owned up

and talk about your vulnerabilities. So I thank you. All we can do is recognize our mistakes and try to learn and be better for it. It seems like you're on that path and I wish you nothing but the best along that journey. And I really appreciate your transparency. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I mean, I, I hope like, you know, people who

unfortunately have made like a mistake like me, like don't think they're doomed to that fate or that, you know, like I am this now because I had a low character moment. It doesn't mean like I, I certainly believe it doesn't mean you're, you're doomed to low character forever. No, I would agree. Want to go ahead and plug your charity? Every year at the end of October, there's a fundraiser for Camp Ronald McDonald. Camp Ronald McDonald is a charity that's really close for me personally. I was a camper there.

It is an organization that helps families by giving them emotional support who has a kid that has cancer. So when a family has a kid that has cancer, it affects not just the kid, but the siblings too. So what the organization does is they provide a cost-free summer camp where you have like a community, a new family that kind of understands this really unique position you're in. So every year we do a Heroes for Healing fundraiser. It's a six-week kind of blitz fundraiser. And the goal is just to raise as much money as you can to help Camp B cost-free to all the families that are unfortunately involved in the childhood cancer sphere. So I did it three years ago. My team raised a good amount of money you can see it on my

Instagram but this year they're they're really pushing hard to raise some money and you know Nick was nice enough to let me spread the awareness and they're I'm hoping I'll post a link if we can't put it in our show notes too so if you guys want to donate to this foundation go let's go to our show notes and there'll be a link to support this good cause. Yeah. And I mean, any little bit adds up so fast. I mean, when I did it years ago, I probably had like 600 followers on Instagram and we really made it like a big, a big rush at it. You know, we raised a lot of money and it was because of, it wasn't because of like big donations of $500 all the time. I mean, there were a lot like the $20, the $10, like add up

really fast. So it's a great opportunity for, you know, anybody who wants to kind of give to a really deserving community. All right. Well, you heard him go, uh, go find that link, uh, donate. We appreciate it. Like Tino said, every little bit helps bit helps again Tino thank you for your time I wish you nothing but the best it sounds like you are someone who's been to therapy and I commend you for it and I hope you continue on that path and I appreciate your honesty I wish you nothing but the best and I hope that like you said I hope anyone listening will maybe have learned something from your vulnerability and your mistakes and maybe you know there'll be

one or two people out there better for it yeah hopefully well guys thanks for listening we appreciate you listening all as always don't forget to rate review all that fun stuff send your questions at ask nick at cast me.com cast with a k also there's a special update episode that we dropped last friday if you haven't listened to that tune in so go back all your ask nick and texting office hours update well Well, not all, some of them. We'll have more coming out. Don't forget my book is out, USA Today, bestseller. Yay. Really, again, I can't thank you enough for all the kind words, the reviews. It's probably the thing I'm most proud of in my life, I've decided. Yeah, it's the one thing I never thought

I could do that I did, and it turned out people like it, so I'm proud proud of in my life. I've decided. Yeah. It's the one thing I never thought I could do that I did. And it turned out people like it. So proud, but it is available. There's an audio book. I, if you get the audio book, I recommend it. You listen to it on 0.9 speed. I got it for the first time. I was like, what does my audio book sound like? So I got it. And I was like, I definitely was choppy the first couple of chapters. I'm dyslexic. So I feel like I was, I felt like I could hear that. It's smoothed out, but I feel like it's, it sounds better at 0.9, not 1.0. I'm curious your thoughts. You heard it here first.

But also the book, the hard copy. It's cute. It's fun. It serves as a great guide to reference back to. It's a great gift. Any friend that you have struggling in relationships or dating or anything who's just like feels confused, get them this book. I really appreciate all the support people have given to it. So please go check it out. We are back on Monday, right?

We always are. For another great week. Tina, thanks so much, man. Thank you. All right. Take care, guys. you