The Viall Files - E50 The Problem With Men with Liz Plank

Episode Date: October 9, 2019

Today we have author and Vox Media Host Liz Plank in the studio to talk about idealized masculinity. But first, Nick weighs in on the Raven/Rachel controversy. Liz shares why she doesn’t like the term toxic masculinity, she discusses her research on male intimacy, and Nick and Liz discuss not fitting into gender norms. Check out Liz’s book For The Love of Men. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode! THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: HUNT A KILLER: https://www.huntakiller.com/viall FIGS: https://www.wearfigs.com CODE: VIALL NOOM: https://www.noom.com/viall See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what is up everybody welcome to another episode of vile files i'm just uh trying to be very cool bring a little spice to my intros yes so how's everyone doing that's you listeners i'm asking i hope everyone's in their car on their podcast or their headphones be like i'm great nick I guess so. How's everyone doing? That's you, listeners, I'm asking. I hope everyone's in their car, in their podcast, or their headphones. Be like, I'm great, Nick. Another great episode for you. I'm equally excited about this one. Last week, we had a fun episode with our friend Sylvie talking about attachment styles.

We actually talked a little bit about that again today with our guest, Liz Plank. Liz is great. She has a new book out that again today with our guest, Liz Plank. Liz is great. She has a new book out called For the Love of Men. I love this because, I mean, I say this at the end of our episode. You know, this is really why I started this podcast. And it's kind of bringing up just kind of alternative ways of thinking. You know, so much of what we do or how we do things has been because we've always done it a certain way over the history of our time and understanding all these different things is fascinating and talking about we're in interesting

times uh trying to be progressive as possible uh trying to have equality amongst all different types of people and you know traditional minorities but then understanding how it affects the counterbalance of men and and how we with things. So talk a lot about masculinity, where that comes from. Liz has a lot of interesting insights. She's studied a lot about it, done a lot of research, and we've gotten into that. So it's a lot of fun. I think you will enjoy it.

Yeah, she's a badass for sure. It's really great. You know, it's funny. I was looking online that you commented. So the thing with Raven and and rachel i thought was interesting seemed to be in a big fight yeah wow yeah i saw something about uh colton asked if she doesn't if she just doesn't like everyone and i wrote i'm pretty sure she likes me so tell me what's what your opinion is i don't really have necessarily an opinion it seems like

you do i don't really i don't really know what... I remember last time I saw Rachel, she mentioned that there was... You don't know what it is? I don't know. She didn't tell you? No. I mean, why would she tell me? I thought...

So I could talk about it on my podcast? No. I really don't know. I find it interesting because remember when I had Rachel on on the podcast? Yes. And I mentioned thatven spent the first 30 minutes of a fantasy suite talking shit about vanessa and then raven mentioned on my uh made a

comment and became this kind of drama and i kind of raven i had this little back and forth remember that and i was like well i know that's the truth raven i don't want to talk about but you're welcome to come on podcast and talk about it right i got on the phone with rachel yeah because i you know they were friends and i remember asking her opinion or what she thought i'm like i don't understand like raven's making a big deal of like literally at the time i remember thinking no one's talking about that except for raven right and then she brought awareness to it right thing and i just remember calling up rachel like so what do you think i mean yes how do you think i should handle it does she would i would she come on if i you know whatever and it just became a mountain issue my point of only

bringing that up is that they were clearly talking then and that wasn't that long ago yeah something happened something recent and um but it kind of annoys me when people are like rachel doesn't like anyone it's like people aren't allowed to have opinions totally disagree with colton i think it's kind of an unnecessary comment by Colton. I think Rachel's opinionated. Yes. Which is kind of refreshing. I don't like this.

Do I agree with everything Rachel says? No. Yeah. But this idea that like Rachel just hates everyone because she's not afraid to like speak up and not suck everyone's metaphorical dick and bastionation. Like, you know, like I have a lot of my friends and I will stand up for them. I will disagree with them.

I know sometimes people think I'm like, you know, a homer for the franchise, but like I can be critical too. Rachel's opinionated and I love that about her. What happened between the two of them? I don't know. I guess I don't really care. I do, you know, listen,

I think Raven's very self-conscious about her brand. I think that was demonstrated by the fact that she chimed in there. I think Raven on my season was kind of the silent assassin. She was the one who was involved in all the drama. And she can't even admit it. But no one knew.

But no one knew. And she knew how to poke and play. Yes. She knew. Raven no one knew. And she knew how to poke and play. Yes. She knew. Raven's very bright and very sharp. And she very much knew what was going on. And she would know how to start shit and walk away. Oh.

That was kind of the role that she played. I mean, that's fine, too. Yeah. All I'm saying is Raven's not some innocent little saint in Bambi and just, I'm just grateful to be here. Never had an orgasm. Never had an orgasm. Never had an orgasm. Like, you know,

Raven's a savage and that's fine. I quite like that about Raven. Yeah, I think it's awesome. I thought that was cool. It made her interesting to me. Exactly. But let people have opinions.

Whatever happened between Rachel and Raven, I'm saying, probably played into some like conflict of interest of the hustle and bustle it is to

be around in this world i don't yeah i i love colton i don't agree with him on this take i think uh that's a very uh unthinkable thing to say and maybe there's some some loyalty between like his friendship with tia and raven or you know it's complicated but like i don't to my knowledge i don't think uh uh colton knows rachel at all. I think Rachel has been critical of Colton at times. Right. Probably super sensitive about that.

But whatever. I don't, I guess I don't really agree with Colton. But besides Bachelor Drum, we have a fabulous episode that has nothing to do with The Bachelor. But you should still tune in. It's really, if you liked last week's episode, you're going to love this one. It's this more interesting dialogue about the roles as men and women as we play in relationships, how we interact with each other, how we can try to better understand each other and hopefully have healthier relationships and not kind of give in to some of the social constraints that we so often do with each other.

So I hope you'll enjoy it. Once again, as always, don't forget to rate us five stars. We're close to 10,000 reviews. We're not really getting any higher in how our podcast is rating. So your five star ratings are appreciated. But anyways, as always, thanks for tuning in.

Always send your questions to asknickatcastmedia.com for Monday's episodes. We love you guys. We couldn't be here without you. Thanks so much. I hope you enjoy this next episode. Liz.

Yes. Thank you for coming. Thank you for having me. coming thank you for having me i'm so excited i uh it's always funny how things work out uh liz is here because she tweeted something i liked it there we go and she wrote back uh read can i send you my book and i said why don't you come here on my podcast and then give it to me oh you're a hustler. I like that. And then here we are. I thought Liz would be great. You have a book called for the love of men that is out. Is it doing well? It is actually,

you know, I was told men are not going to buy this book and men don't buy books, which is so offensive. I think. And a lot of, I know. And they were like, you should write, you know, the next generation of women are from Venus and men are from Mars.

And I was like, this is the opposite of that point. I don't want to reinforce all these differences. I want people to be free from them. So I kept with my idea. This is an important life lesson. When you come up with something that is uh new a lot of people are going to tell you that it can't be done and uh pushing through that is really important and so they're going to tell you like it's already been oh totally yeah other people have tried and they

were very i don't know some of the publishers were pretty patronizing it was like you're so cute like you think men are gonna buy a book about masculinity and uh in the end based on my dms and obviously uh the sales, we've seen that a lot of men have been buying the book. So you have a pretty diverse audience when it's not just women reading about men. No. And I really wrote this to show that masculinity was the solution, not the problem. And so often in these conversations around men that we've been having, right, we've been having so many good conversations around feminism and around women's equality and gender equality. But it's always like men as the problem, right? The framing is always very negative. And I think that we over evaluate how much people change through shame. We think that men are going to be changing through being shamed. And I don't, I think that that not only doesn't work, but can actually be counterintuitive. That makes sense. So let's backtrack a little bit before. So how did you, tell us a little bit about yourself before you even got into

writing a book about masculinity and toxic masculinity and men and things like that. How did you get your start? And then what kind of prompted you to have this idea and have it become a passion of yours? at a very young age. And I saw the way that it affected my mother and it's been a super impactful experience to just be firsthand experience of what it's like to really be a victim of sexual violence in our society. And so it was always something that I was aware of. I was also raised in a household with a lot of empathy. I'm very lucky.

I was always interested in, you know, I kind never got you know when you're two and you keep saying like why you just keep asking questions like why why why and then you get to the end of the adult is just like well the world is unfair like that's just the way that the world is and i kind of never got over that phase of like why are there people who don't have money and who are homeless? Why are there women who can't, you know, leave their houses? Why do, I don't know, LGBTQ people continue to face discrimination? I worked with people with disabilities in Montreal, and I was just always sort of interested in people who don't get a voice in our society. And so, strangely enough, I wrote a book about men, which I think surprised a lot of people as I've been a gender reporter and focusing on women for a long time, because women

tend to have a lot less of a voice in our society. But as I started doing research around masculinity, I realized that a lot of the pain that was coming, a lot of the pain that men were causing to me and to the women around me was because they had been hurt first right so we are all affected by gender stereotypes that constrain us and the quote-unquote patriarchy which I know is a scary term maybe we could call I think some people don't love to hear that or believe that. Men don't? I think even women. Oh my God, even women. And we can get into that. For the people who don't know,

like what do you mean by patriarchy? Patriarchy is basically a system that we all live in that was invented. It's not innate to our nature. Yes, exactly. And I go into evidence in the book. I love data and proving things. Crazy. Yeah, I love being right.

It's really hard when I'm always right and you're never wrong. Yes, exactly. Tough. So patriarchy is a system that basically rule, that men rule over women. And it's rooted in capitalism, in the production of resources. And it started around the time that we shifted to an agricultural society where people basically became units of labor, right? So your children became workers. And if you had more children, more of them could work. Your wife became property and marriage and owning her and also as a unit of labor. And that system is bad for women because it constrains women to these roles that are more

passive, that are where we have less control over our bodies, over our decisions. But it's also a system that's really constraining for men. So it's that system that says that men have to dominate with aggression or that they can only be, they have two emotions. They're either angry or not angry, right? They don't get the same latitude to fully express themselves because they're also boxed into these stereotypes as well. And so what I started to find is that masculinity was kind of like fight club. Like the first rule was that like you weren't allowed to talk about it uh and as a journalist you know when someone doesn't want to talk about something you you just want to ask so many more questions and so i would ask my really simple

questions about what it meant to be a man when did you know you were a man do you want to do you want to want us to do it right now sure fun when when did you know that you were a man nick i don't remember i mean i guess the simplest way i asked that question is i just from as long as i could remember you know i don't know i don't there's not a moment right in terms of like my parents were like hey you have a penis so like you're a man i don't know i just i was always a a guy i mean thinking back you know i have a lot of siblings so like there was a time where I was the only boy in my family. And I remember wanting a brother.

I mean, there's that thought of like, I have sisters and I'm a boy. I don't know. But it wasn't like, I think I was very lucky with the parents I have. And I don't know how it got that way in terms of, because my parents definitely had their gender roles. My dad always drove. Same. My mom always, not always, but for the most part, like would do, like she was a stay-at-home mom. My dad worked.

11 kids. Oh my God. Yeah. And, but my mom would like do the laundry and make dinner. But I saw my dad, I saw my dad cook from time to time. I saw my mom mow the lawn sometimes. So it wasn't like, my parents were always, they had their roles, but it was never,

they always raised us as like they were always a team. And so within that, there was nothing neither of them were willing to do. It was never like, I literally don't, I don't mow the lawn, I'm the woman or I don't cook. So I don't remember, the lawn i'm the woman or i don't cook so i you know i don't remember uh it was never i was never taught to be super manly and i say that as a like it wasn't like my dad was always like don't cry don't don't cry uh don't never like and i think i was lucky that way because

i was never you turned out so great i I was never raised to prove my masculinity. I don't remember those moments. I'm just thinking about it right now. And did your peers, like did you have friends who would say things like that? Did you get that message from outside of your home? Sure. It was definitely throughout my young life at times teased about my masculinity, I think. What would they say?

They still are teased about my masculinity i think what would what would they say still are teased probably people people say you know well what do you you read his comments well yeah people some people claim that you're feminine sure or or i could be well now it's like you know i've been single or there was the are you gay well that was you know i did the whole uh i did the the show and i kissed a guy and then that report came out but yes i've always wait wait i missed this so you kissed a guy and then people people freaked out or sure someone took it out of context oh the show hasn't come out yet yeah okay but minus that that's minus that yes my whole life I've never been accused of being overly macho,

especially, never. Right. You know, I also have never tried to be. Right. And growing up as a kid in Wisconsin, you know, that was back in the day where words like metrosexual came out. And I always remember being like, this is annoying.

I'm just a kid in Wisconsin who actually likes fashion. And I don't think I need a name to describe my, like where I would, you know, I grew up around a bunch of guys who like didn't care or were intimidated by that. And so, yeah,

I was always from time to time, but I was always very confident. I never care, never really cared. And so it always kind of won out, so to speak. Yeah. And do you think that those guys were uncomfortable but also envious?

Like, do you think that they also wanted to, you know? Sure, maybe a little bit. Right. Because I think there's this ideal that if men, if you care about your appearance, right, then you're doing what a woman does. And the number one thing that you have to do as a man is never do anything that's feminine, right? What are the first insults that you get?

I used to love wearing pink shirts. There we because i didn't thought i knew i looked good in pink and i just remember being a young age and i just remember being like as long as i know i look good i i look good well that's amazing i will say like the most of the time i got teased when i was a young young adult or a boy is i got teased by other men when I got attention from women. So I was like, yeah. Again, envy, right? That didn't hurt you too much. I'm not saying it never bothered me. Don't get me wrong, for sure.

But I've never felt the need to be overly macho. Again, keep in mind that I was always like the jock in high school. I did a lot of other things, but I always found it was more like, I'd rather be surprised and be like, I'm actually quite handy. I know you don't think that about me, but I've made wooden shelves. But it's like men have multitudes too, right? That just because a woman, I don't know, wears a suit, right? Or a tuxedo at a wedding, it doesn't mean she's not a woman, right? Doesn't mean that she doesn't like to be feminine too. we give this latitude to women uh right to to to do masculine things and do feminine things

but for men it's like yeah if you wear pink then they're surprised that you like woodworking or that you are a football player um and and i wonder you know to me that's sort of the unfinished gender revolution like why is it badass for a little girl to be an engineer but it's not badass for a little boy to want to be a nurse yeah there's that or play the flute yes did you play the flute no i played the violin oh that's even cuter is it oh do you have photos you should put them i played the violin because in the fourth grade are the reason why i got into violin is because when they were like it's a time where like they kind of introduced the whole like fourth grade class like hey if you want to sign up for violin or orchestra you can and the the head of orchestra was this big guy giant funny and charismatic but he was also the

football coach and the track coach oh that's dope and I to me like I was very attracted to the uh juxtaposition of the violin teacher was also the football coach. That's so cool. And that's what I was always, even at a young age, attracted to the difference. Like not conforming. Not conforming. It seems like you were never interested in conforming. No, no.

All right. So what else we got for tests? What else do I have for what? I mean, you asked me, do I remember? What's the hardest thing about being a man? Oh god where do i start go hit me no i don't i don't what's the hardest thing about being a man because when i've asked man that i was often i mean the first person asking that which i find ridiculous because i feel like we even back there just getting coffee we're talking about things we hate about being a woman right like or like you know complaining

about society's standards and and how hard they are to meet. I'm really not trying to play. I mean, like I got it pretty good in terms of my life. So in terms of hard, I think people have a hard time understanding other people. So in the dating world, I mean,

yes, women can be confusing sometimes as men, right? How so? Is it hard to men, right? How so? Is it hard to be a man? How so? No, tell us about this confusion because I hear about it all the time. It's in the book.

But I'm curious what your take is on it. Because I do think we're living through a confusing time for men. But men can be confusing to women. I guess that's what I'm saying. I don't know if it means I'm trying to, I'm not trying. What is the hardest thing about being a man? Be honest because you've expressed some stuff to me no but like well sometimes and like it's it's uh you it's sometimes as as guys like if you want to be an ally you want to do the right thing

sometimes you feel like uh with certain people you're not going to win sure sure i don't want to put that on as a guy or a girl. It could just be sometimes you're just like, I can't win with this person. Right. So that you're always going to do it wrong. Right. That someone's going to find a flaw in the way that you're showing allyship. Yeah. I mean, again, I also I feel like talking about the times we're in versus like in general, is it like what's the hardest thing about being a guy? I think those are two different questions. Right. Like sometimes we talk about like and i want to get into it with you because i know you talk a lot about toxic masculinity like what is that you know and defining that because

we now live in a time where there's like it's whenever time there's progress there's a lot of good that happens but sometimes things get overblown and then then you have things like trigger words and trigger phrases and they become like trendy and in vogue. And then, you know, anytime anyone does anything, you get like pointed the finger, oh, that's toxic masculinity. And maybe it is sometimes,

maybe it's not. And even if you do make a mistake and you're like, well, hey, teach me about it. You become more the, you become the bad guy as opposed to like, I mean, fine. I'm trying i mean fine i'm trying to learn

and then there's this big confusion and even rachel and i have debated like where do you draw the line between uh wanting to be an ally and asking questions and have people on the other side help you out or is it your responsibility to just figure it out on your own and that can be challenging again i don't know if that's an argument about like being a guy versus just the times we live in. I agree. And I actually don't, so I don't use the term toxic masculinity anymore.

You don't? Because, and I actually took it out of the book like 10 days before the book came out. I called my editor. She was not happy. Can we talk about what is the toxic masculinity and at least the idea of it? And then tell me why you don't use it and why you took it out.

Right. I'm really curious about that. So toxic masculinity is a term or a problem, basically. And that's sort of the common label that we're using right now that I think needs a little makeover. But it basically signifies these pressures. these pressures um no see it actually signifies all of the negative behaviors that men are engaging in um that are related to these ideals of masculinity so being dominant being aggressive uh if there's a school shooting and like a perfect example i think is yeah there's a school shooting and some guy which is 99 of mass shooters are male and we can talk about that later um will

have put out a manifesto right as we know like with the santa barbara shooting saying like women are you know don't want to sleep with me so i'm going to go after them um so it's rooted in misogyny it's rooted in a hatred of women and it's and it's rooted in sort of a violent expression of being a man and so toxic masculinity is used as a label to talk about the changes that we need to do when we're talking to men about masculinity in the way that we're raising boys. And I think that is not a useful term. And that was through, you know, I've been working on this book for four years. So I talked to a lot of men about this. And through these conversations, it's still in

the book in the quotes that men give, because I'm not going to change men's quotes and their own words. I also use it occasionally because it's difficult to give a solution without giving a name to the problem. But I prefer the term idealized masculinity because to me, it is a better parallel with the conversation that we've been't been having with women which is um if i don't know if someone had come up to me uh when i was 14 and it said have you heard about toxic femininity i would have been like less interested as if someone as compared to someone saying have you heard about female empowerment have you heard about feminism right so i think

that the words that we use are super important. They're extremely important in the term in the world that we're living in right now, especially when we're clearly disagreeing on a lot. And so so idealized masculinity to me is more about a conversation instead of just talking about the bad behaviors that I think, honestly, a minority of men are engaging in. I think that we need to talk about the pressures that lead to those behaviors, right? So one thing that I think about all the time is, you know, when there's a bully, for example, we often think about the victims, right? We're like trying to treat the victims. And in the same way, when there's mass shootings, when there's, you know, we talk about violence against women, we're treating the women. And to me, it's like, who's treating the bully, right? And maybe if we treated the bully, if we treated um and and and and tried to heal heal this person and understand why they're causing pain to other people um and what pain probably they were caused and is is causing them to then uh you know sort

of transmit that pain when we live in a much better society and when wouldn't that be a much more productive way to actually solve our problems um So I'm more interested in talking about how this system hurts women, but it also hurts men. And I'm not interested in telling men how to be men. I'm not interested in telling you, you can't be aggressive anymore. You can't wrestle. Do whatever you want. I just want there to be as much latitude and freedom for you to express yourself in the world as I have. And I think that if we give boys and men more tools in order to be who they wanna be, wear skinny jeans if they want to,

wear pink if they want to, do all of these different things, then maybe they won't have anger, right? Maybe it won't come out in forms that are negative. Do you think a lot of that comes from in terms terms of like the anger and aggression and i am listening to you talking so i guess i'm just kind of going back and thinking about how it does or doesn't apply to me and again it's just weird because like i've never felt that i always give my parents the credit um but that's the thing it's like i make a lot of jokes about my interest in fashion

or dancing when I was young. But I was also very into, again, I was the sports guy. I love sports and all the things that traditionally you would say are masculine. I just never felt the need to identify with that. But that's a minority, right? I guess. But there are times where i very like to be the

traditionally quote-unquote the man in a relationship and there are other aspects of relationship i don't like care i joke about how like i'm a really good ironer and i like to cook my god you know i'm so bad at iron i also fucking hate folding laundry it's like to me it's not about like roles it's about like what are you good at and what am i good at and what do you can't stand then i you know i wonder if because you are like tall and good looking and charismatic that that gave you the leeway to be able to do that stuff like i'm not in any way suggesting but like bde versus small like the energy you have kind of thing when people talk about that you know but i'm saying yeah that you had these other things that kind of protected you 100 i mean that's why this is my favorite example of this uh right where men can engage in intimacy with other men in certain scenarios so why can't men you know hold hands in public but they can

slap each other's butts when they're wearing a football uniform that to me is like very interesting right like and it's not just oh men can hug or men can hold hands, right? They're slapping each other's butts. Like that's another level of intimacy that I'm all for. But I think that it's interesting that men can only, you know, have the permission to do that when they're wearing like the big shoulder pads and the big helmet. And it's like, I'm a man, by the way. It's no homo, right?

It's not permission. I can honestly say I've never had the thought or urge to like hold another guy's hand and i'm very i'm very comfortable around men but you make a lot of flirty instagram sure because it's fun and i get it like you know like i i'll do it on because it's fun like that's the equivalent that's the equivalent a little bit and i know it gets a reaction and i think it's funny and i'm secure with myself to know that people are going to like raise questions and like keeps people on their toes but for me to hold someone's hand that's a that's a personal moment and like

if i'm alone at a park with my best friend and like we're just like you want to hold hands because like i feel i feel alone i guess sure but I'm saying I personally have never thought of it or had the edge. And it's not because I'm afraid of what it means or whatever. I just personally don't. And I know that women do that a lot more often. And I don't feel, to me, it's not about being judged or what people are going to say.

I just haven't had the urge. Right. I mean, holding hands is one, is on a spectrum. Writing cute Instagrams and saying, you know, and cuddling with another guy on Instagram there are a lot of men who don't want to do that I mean I was on Dax Shepard's podcast and he says all the time men will say how much they love him and they'll hashtag no homo and it's like it's just like because and again I think that you I want you to recognize

that you are an anomaly and that you are extremely secure in your manhood and masculinity. And unfortunately, are you asking me to pat myself on the back? Cause I can do that. No, I want you to realize that you are leading by example. And I think that's amazing. And you're probably giving permission to so many men who follow you and listen to you to also do that.

And I think that's really wonderful. That's an interesting point about the no homo. I guess I've never really done that. I'm sure I've said, I definitely have said no homo or, but I guess I really done that i'm sure i've said i definitely have said no homo or or but i guess i've less and less of that thought of like for example my friend brad goreski when we'll constantly comment on each other's instagram and it's it's strongly suggestive that maybe we are in love um i just think it's funny and i know that like i don't really care

in fact i deliberately don't rule it i wouldn't i know that like i don't really care in fact i deliberately don't rule it i wouldn't i haven't thought about writing no homo but if i did i would deliberately not do it because that would go against what the point of writing it is like it just makes people wonder right because i don't really care and i just think brad's great right as a friend but a lot of men don't want to let people wonder right a? A lot of men, it's the worst thing that, if I'm going on a date with a guy and I say, oh my God,

I thought you were gay. I feel like that's like not the best, right? That guy will probably feel threatened and feel belittled. Sure. And there's this connotation, right? That being gay is the worst,

you know, means you're a woman. I've had that said to me before. But see, you don't care. But I think most men do care. I can't say that it doesn't affect me at all. It probably affects me less now. I've become more and more confident in myself.

I can't say that I was like totally immune to it. But I guess I just dealt with that earlier in my life. And I just became very confident. I'm like, I just know that I'm not. You know, like I've never was on the spectrum, like very much love women. And so it was like, it just never bothered me. I also just learned in an early age that like,

if you do get asked that question, that doesn't stop women from being attracted to you. It just makes them more curious about you. You know, the more mysterious or curious you are, the harder to figure out it's actually an advantage to you. I love that. That's good advice. I was wearing, I've recently,

Rochelle has noticed that once in a while, I have this like chain that I attach my wallet to and I wear it from time to time. I saw it, I went to Top Man. It came with a pair of pants. I'm like, I'm kind of into this look. I know it was like outdated. I don't even know if it's'm like, I'm kind of into this look. I know it was like outdated. I don't even know if it's back,

but I'm kind of digging it. And I've been wearing it and I haven't yet not worn it around women, friends or whatever dating who haven't noticed it and teased me about it. And I've said like, listen, I know you don't like it,

but I do. And women and men. And immediately the women have been like well fuck now i think it looks good on you and it's just just that confident of being like i'm wearing it because i like it i don't really i don't i just don't care what you think i don't care what you think right and that's the sexiest thing you can do as a man right i think men believe or are because of our society because of again everything that you're talking about right women and men are reinforcing this idea that if you have anything feminine,

there's something wrong with you. Proving that you're a man in all these manly ways is, I think, far less sexy than a man just being very secure and being like, I love this pink t-shirt and this chain on my wallet. Well, then if you pop out the mask and things, you're like, whoa, where did this come from? I don't know. I mean, yeah, I just always thought I'd lean into that. I just never felt that need. I don't know I mean yeah I just always thought I'd lean into that

I just never felt that need I don't know I'm opening up your book and it says chapter 4 men are slaves to their bodies and their nether regions that's a myth I'm not making that as a statement oh okay I'm just curious

just a thought about I'm curious what is that topic just to talk a little bit about your book but specifically yes what do you mean i i found that fascinating of some of the chapters because we always talk about how women are objectified for their bodies and how men see the women like and this comes across as very like specific bodies it seems to be contrary to what we see out there in society. Yeah. So I think there's this myth out there. I don't think I know. And I document all of the ways that we see it in pop culture, that men want more sex all the time and women want more cuddling all the time and that we are very different in our needs of intimacy. And I am

interested in sort of playing around with that myth and sort of questioning that myth and whether it's really true. I'm not denying that testosterone doesn't have certain effects on men and that we're not different. Obviously, there are some big differences. But I think that those differences are magnified by our society, right? By the idea that I was raised in a society where i needed to you know we were separated in canada by the way like a progressive country we were separated girls and boys and in sex ed the guys were told about masturbation and pleasure and then i was told this is what you must do to never get pregnant this is what you must do to protect

yourself this is what you just do to never get raped. So sex was never I mean, I oh my gosh, it's embarrassing, like as a feminist, how long it took me and I'm still working on my own like sexual liberation and like pleasure and putting that as a primary focus in my relationships instead of am I pleasing my partner? Am I you know, am I and sort of overcoming my own shame when it comes to my body and my own pleasure and my own decisions. And with men, I think that there's also a lot of repression in terms of how to get intimacy, right? So when we talk about the butt slapping in sports, or other examples of this of how I think difficult it is for men to just get intimacy from from from even their

friendships right so there's a whole chapter about this about bromance right so men tend to have less friends than women and those friendships are less in depth that's the data um really yes i've not knowing any data not doing research perceptions i feel like women always have that one best friend oh and that that can change and guys i've noticed have more one best friend and that can change. And guys, I've noticed, have more groups of friends, but that's not the case. So, yeah. So men do, again, this is all laid out in the data, but men tend to do shoulder to shoulder friendships.

So that's called watching games, drinking a beer together. So you're not staring at each other. You're staring at the beer and you're, you know, connecting, but through an activity, right? So you're going to, yeah, you're on a basketball league or you're watching sports and women tend to connect with each other more. And they tend to have more, I think, leeway to have an intimate connection just based on that connection. And so men, as they grow older, especially, and especially straight men who are married to women, often their female partner becomes their only friend. And I see it with my dad. I see it that my mom just has much more ability and to maintain friendships than my dad. My dad just doesn't necessarily have the same interest. And what happens is that in relationships,

women are complaining a lot about the fact that they are the sole support network for their male partner, and that that can be extremely taxing. And I know in my own relationships with men, you know, when we've been going through issues, you know, I've been talking about it to several friends, and I've been trying to work through it. And with I have a support network that I can go to. And I would often ask, I mean, I would ask my ex-boyfriend, I was like, who did you talk about this with? And he'd be like, you. And I was like, no matter,

like no wonder this isn't going anywhere. And not to say that, you know, you should talk about it to 10 of your friends and work it all out that way. But men don't have the same impulse to get support when they are stressed. And so that becomes really hard in relationships. And actually, I think it's causing a lot more divorces. Because, again, if you're only getting that connection through your partner, that's a

tax on women. Do you think it matters whether the guy is getting it from another man or another woman i think that a lot of men well a lot of men that i talked to said that their closest friends are women um and and that often they would and and i think this is really this makes me sad of even some men are really close to other men but they say i can't i don't go to him when i have a problem because he's not always helpful I think about well I'm asking that question thinking about my uh adult life yeah and I look back and I know that throughout my adult life in dating and the the person would change but I always like whether it was someone I worked with it would be this it would I would befriend a woman who was older than me and like like but we became actual

friends but they became my confidant and like it would be always just like random person i became friends with them but they weren't part of like my hangout group yeah it was someone that was a little bit of an outsider but we were i developed a relationship with them but usually a woman where like if i was having a hard time with my girlfriend at the time that was the person we'd go to lunch and i'd vent to and and talk to with but it was typically always a woman it wasn't like my best guy friends and I'm not saying we didn't talk from time to time but thinking back it's like when I would really open up and really just they would know everything it was never why do you think that is I think you know part of it too is just like I just didn't

I think part of it too is I just didn't feel like they would understand. That's interesting. I don't remember feeling like I had a hard time telling them. It was just more like, what am I going to get out of this? Isn't that interesting? And this really taps into a larger topic, which is emotional education. We go to school. We learn about math. There's all these curriculums about, you know, learning what the names of the clouds are and

what the metals and the table, what is that called? The chemicals? Periodic table? Periodic table. Yeah, I remember that, right? Do you remember that? So there's all this curriculum, but there's no, what about emotional education? What about attachment styles? What about kindness? What about empathy, right? We learned about attachment styles. Oh my gosh. I can't, it's so so i learned about attachment styles like six months ago and every and then i talked about to every person and every person was like why didn't i know this

what attachment style are you oh what are you okay we should say it go we both say it i i don't really know i think i'm all of them oh no Oh, no. So you're insecure avoidant? So you have maybe both? Sorry. He's avoidant. Oh, I'm avoidant too. I think I'm secure avoidant. Secure avoidant? No, if you're secure.

I grew up very secure. You just made one up. Like my parents are like, I don't know. My parents made me feel very, like I, the way it was described to me, like I always was loved very much as a child. And they always made me feel very confident and comfortable expressing them to my feelings to them.

And I never felt like there wasn't a place I could go. And I'm, I'm a good communicator that way. I think as I've gotten older in my dating life, I've avoided situations and I just kind of push it away. And I don't know. And I think that's, this is a result of me becoming more of a skeptic

and more of a realist and less naive. Naive? What do you mean? Well, naive, it's like, I think, what's the phrase? Ignorance is bliss. I really believe that ignorance is bliss a lot of times. But in a relationship, like not talking about how you're feeling? In life sometimes.

I think there's this balance of ignorance and bliss and perspective and cynicism. Okay. You know, like a perspective is great. I'm a huge believer in it. It's helped me along. But the more perspective you get, like you almost become too realistic and too cynical.

And then you start like playing out scenarios in your head because you have the quote unquote perspective and then you just kind of dismiss it and you don't really live your life as opposed to sometimes being ignorant, not necessarily ignorant in a like, you know, like not awareness, but just kind of like a young, dumb person.

You know, you just haven't experienced things and newness is fun and exciting. And then learning these things, it's blissful and exciting and it's a euphoric drug. Trying anything for the first time is exciting. And when you, you know, and so there's a little bit of that. Interesting, but avoiding things.

So I'm an avoidant. And so I am working on that, but avoiding things, it doesn't make them go away. It actually makes them, gives you more, it doesn't get rid of your problems, it gives you more problems. And if you're an avoidant and you're using people to avoid your problems,

you're only bringing in those people into your problems. Well, to that point, I feel like as an avoidant, and the tendency I do have, it's a bit of Groundhog's Day. Where like you avoid things to that point and they don't go away. You're just like- They grow, yeah. Well, I just don't wanna deal with this now or I don't have to deal with this because i have dealt with it and then like

a week later you're having that same thought processing you're ahead of like not doing the thing that you didn't want to do or waste your time but you're still like reassessing it right now and you're like well it's still wednesday yeah yeah i mean and and it's hard it's it makes you it means that you have to lean into discomfort, right? And realize that when you're avoiding things, it's not that you're, the thing that I had to understand is that I wasn't avoiding it. I wasn't an avoidant because I didn't want intimacy. I was an avoidant because I was afraid of intimacy, right? And intimacy was actually a threat to me and that my reaction when I was uncomfortable was to move away. When you say intimacy, I mean, I'm saying you're

talking about all sorts of kinds. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I mean, obviously, like in my romantic lives, but also if you're, you know, what's the saying? The way you do anything is the way that you do everything, right? So the way you do anything is the way that you do everything. So the way that you are in relationships with romantically is probably going to be the way or reflective of the way that you were in relationship with your parents um in your family in your work life um often we bring these issues into everything um and so i saw it again i mean the attachment styles too people think that you have to be like traumatized and have grown up in a tragic abusive household to have an insecure attachment but half of us have insecure attachments well the way i understood attachment styles, and we had our guest Sylvie,

who kind of specializes in that, is that everyone has some sort of attachment style. It comes from everyone, whether it's triggered by a traumatic event or just- The way that you understood, yes. You have one, and it can change and it's fluid, but you're always doing something based off of things that have happened right you're reacting exactly and half of us are securely attached and half of us are insecurely attached and then the insecurely attached fall into avoidant or or um uh what's the anxious anxious right and some people have both but basically and this is the thing that I just because a lot of people are listening, and that this was really helpful to me, avoidance often

find anxious people, like they find each other, because one person is afraid to lose a relationship. And one person is afraid to lose themselves. And those people always find each other. And very often in relationships, yeah, there'll be one person that's like, I'm just don't want to lose my independence. The other person's like, I just want, I don't want to lose you. And it's those relationships often are super exhilarating. They're roller coasters. They go really fast. They're very passionate. But at the end of the day, they're very unstable and they're difficult because you're constantly pushing away, pushing in, pushing away, pushing in. I love unstable and difficult. It's so fun. it's addictive and and that's what we think love is um right it's like i highs and lows and and and it's like a drug but actually love is uncomfortable like when you're actually connecting with someone and you're you're building intimacy it's not it can be actually

truly not feel good um and like what um it can feel i mean you feel seen right and that's really hard to feel seen and because the whole point of intimacy is uh so we go on dates right and we talk about all of the great things that we do right right on a first date you're showing the best version of yourself you're wearing your best outfit you're saying oh i love to do you know all these hobbies and then what do we share what are these great things that we like to do together uh there's this philosopher called alan de baton who i love who says on your first date you shouldn't talk about what makes these great things that we like to do together? There's this philosopher called Alain de Botton, who I love, who says on your first date, you shouldn't talk about what makes you great.

You should talk about what makes you nuts. We're all nuts. Right. And the person, and he wrote an article called why, why you'll marry the wrong person. And he says, you basically have to find the person who knows what makes you nuts and can

tolerate it. Yeah. Right. So, yeah. So you've said that. Yeah. Right.

I mean, I'm not a philosopher, but I feel like, yeah, well, right. Like when you can truly be yourself for good or bad and still feel accepted and people ask me what i'm looking for in a relationship and at this point in my life it just comes down to what i describe as ultimately feeling safe yeah right Safe in a sense that I can be myself, you know, and I'm with someone who knows how to critique me, but not criticize me, to build me up and not break me down. You know, people like to say, well, I want to be with someone who helps me make a better version of myself.

That sounds great. But like sometimes when people hear that, it's like, well, I want to make you a better version of yourself. No. So I'm just going to like remind you of all the things you do. And it comes across as sometimes very judgmental and we I think we all make those mistakes and because it it's you know how you know are we condescending or you know things like that but you want to be with someone who has that right amount of balance to like just

make you feel comfortable with who you are so even when you are your worst version you don't feel judged yeah and that you need to hide that from them. And we're all hiding those parts. And because it's, we're trained to do that. Right. And, and a lot of the book is talking about male shame. And cause I think we talk a lot about women's shame, but there's also a lot of men are feeling a lot of shame too. I was asking about that because for all the conversations about toxic masculinity and where we are in our culture in terms of the awareness of equality of women, which is all great and it needs to happen. But when I'm having drinks with my women friends

and we're sitting down and we're in the privacy of like a bar, I mean, you know, we'll talk of things about like the Me Too movement, things like that. And I'll hear from a lot of my women friends who still are like, well, I like it when a guy does this. And they'll kind of like argue against the things that we're hearing in terms of progress and they'll play into these stereotypes of masculinity of like and you know men will feel not not necessarily just judged by their buddies and the beer it's from other women who are like

don't be a pussy you know like i want a man who's doing x y and z and i don't want a guy who is coming across as necessarily feminine like in person i've never felt weird about that in terms of like i've never been worried about women criticizing me about that but i see just talking to my women friends that stereotype that comes up you know. I think we as men sometimes are just as afraid and we're trying to be masculine for these women so that we're not judged. And so it's not just coming from our buddies and the peer pressure is not just coming from men.

It is coming from women. It's coming from everyone, right? It's the saying of the fish don't know that they're swimming in water because that's just what they're swimming in. So we're all in this water. We're all in the system. We're all raised in this culture.

And I actually went on a chivalry diet for the book, way harder than a juice diet. Actually, I can't do those diets. I don't know how you guys do it here. You guys don't eat bread. I don't get it. But I kept eating bread. But I decided to basically stop engaging in everything that you're talking about about that i was writing a book about men needing to uh give up these ideals and questioning why do you believe in this why do you have to always be a man and prove you're a man why are men uh taught about all the transactional aspects of dating that you have to you know uh initiate or that you have to pay half of the bill but you don't know that you should be asking follow-up questions right and follow-up questions are very important i want everyone to hear that um women love follow-up questions i think men do too right it's like i proved that i'm listening i'm not just like show you actual

interest what do you do for a living oh great oh cool oh yeah tell me more about that tell me more do you really like it yes do you think you're gonna keep doing that exactly exactly doesn't sound like you're really passionate about it what would you really like to be doing exactly there we go follow-up questions you've been asking me a lot of follow-up questions thank you i appreciate it. So, yes, women buy into this too. And I realized that I was doing that. So, actually, I was dating someone at the time.

And I decided. And also, I loved. I was this big feminist. I'm still this big feminist. But I loved being treated like a little princess. Right? And so, I like being hammered. Can you be both? I can be both um but i realized that

i was because i was so interested in society's expectations of how men are supposed to treat me i was choosing people based on the wrong things right so i was choosing to be in relationships with men who yeah bought me we're like let's go on this trip or you know send me like a big cookie cake for you know at work or like write these like edible arrangements. It's like, who cares? Yeah. You know. He opens the door and buys me gifts.

We're in love. Yes. And actually, what's your love language? I've taken it once. I'm pretty even with three and like a zero on two. Gifts or it's a zero? Me too. What are they?

I feel like you're words of affirmation. Words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service, physical touch. I think physical touch, quality time, and words of affirmation. I'm like the service and acts of service in gifts, zero. Wow, interesting. See, I'm acts of service. I'm like, that's a big one for me. What is acts of service. I'm like, that's a big one for me.

What is acts of service again? Well, basically acts of service to me is, I know that you had a really important presentation today that you were really nervous for. So I made you breakfast. Or you're stuck at the airport. It does nothing for me. Oh, wow. See, I'm all that. Knowing I can depend on you is extremely important. It's nice. I appreciate it's cool but i can make breakfast okay but you do acts of service a lot like he'll like bring in donuts and stuff like that so maybe that's but even maybe that's maybe that's a hard example like um but i i i think to like oh that'd be nice you do i try to be aware of just being a good person from time to time

where i'm like this is easy for me to do i'm so I'm going to do it I try to have this mindset if something is easy for you to do sometimes just do it even if there's if and I do it with the thought process I'm not necessarily expecting something in return that's the point because that's and and the thing is love languages is maybe that's not important to you but that's if you were with someone who sure who that was important for I totally well yeah because it's easy I'm I'll make you a question I'm a hero yeah there you go but then then that but knowing your partners you know how they like to be loved yeah then is so much i mean a lot of people don't even have this conversation and they're just mad they're like how dare you not you didn't

unload the dishwasher it's like oh that's was important to you i was you know i i don't know i was like billing this whole weekend we're gonna do together but all i need to do yes exactly yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And see, I'm not words of, I mean, I guess I do. Everyone loves, I mean, again, we all love all those things, right? No one's like, I hate physical touch. Um, but, um, but yeah, so, so my, my love language is not gifts even though. And, and, and so why was I choosing people based on something that I don't care about? Right. Why was I choosing men who were showing me affection in all these ways that I don't, I don't need and I, and I don't want. So when? Why was I choosing men who were showing me affection in all these ways that I don't need and I don't want? So when you say a chivalry diet,

what do you mean by that? Well, so I actively stopped engaging in accepting gifts. And if they were given to me, I was like, thank you. But I didn't like, I wasn't like, thank you so much. Like, oh my God, you're right. I didn't play into it. I also, so we went on a little weekend getaway and um he booked the airbnb and then i was like um yeah how much was that and then he just

like mentioned oh he's like oh yeah i got a good deal blah blah and i just venmoed him like half of the price of the house without saying anything and then he offended and then yeah once so once we were uh he didn't say anything at first. And then once we were there, he was like, so I noticed that you you. I just want you. Thank you. Right. And I and I said, yeah, I just I really appreciate you getting the house.

And I just wanted it to be, you know, I wanted to show you that that I was excited about this weekend, too, or something like that, right? And in the end, you know what happened. So I thought I was going to lose out. I was like, oh, now I'm going to have to pay for my own French fries and my own, you know, Airbnbs. But what I found was that I, it totally changed my relationship. And it, this power dynamic that I had in my relationships where when one person's doing that, they're in control, right? When one person's like, right, it's like, it's a way to actually exert control. And I don't think men are trying to do this because they're bad people. Yeah, exactly.

There's power in every relationship. And it shifts sometimes all the time. Exactly. And there's different ways we get and have and receive power. 100%. And so I was giving up a lot of, not giving up power. That's probably not even the right term i just wasn't because i uh would be in this situation of like not being in

control and not being in power i just didn't say what i needed as much right like and that weekend i really just was like very clear and emotionally like what i needed and what i didn't need and felt freer to say those things and it made our relationship way better do you think sometimes as women speaking about like the like the tradition is like guy's gonna fit the bill for whatever things that subconsciously they feel like almost like the skill just like well he paid for everything so like i mean of course we're just gonna do what he wants to do yes and as long as it's like reasonable like sort of him not like taking me to the football game all weekend, but like, I'm just going to like, it's, I'm just happy to be with him.

Exactly. Exactly. And it's unconscious because I didn't, I had no idea that that was playing into my own behavior. And so when you kind of fit the bill too, you're like more just, well, I mean, I don't know, half my weekend. Yeah. And more team, right? It's like coming back to what you're saying about your parents, right? Like, like and and i talk about this data in the book same-sex couples are like far happier than straight couples on several different points and um which is kind of surprising because they're still you know you can't even get like a wedding cake done if you're gay right in this country right or like someone can refuse that to you there's a lot of discrimination marginalization obviously and so i was really curious about that and when i looked into it it's it's really first of all they have more

like equitable uh distribution of domestic chores and rules which is what you talk about with your parents right like one parent like to mow the lawn sometimes like i'm in the mood today like i'm gonna do it um i love to cook like i'm just really good at it great i love cleaning the bathroom sure um they make choices based on what they like and what they want to do, which should be how we are in relationships, right? We like fall into these roles. And even when we don't conform, like we have to explain it, right? We have to justify it, right?

If you're a guy and you're a stay-at-home dad, you have to kind of explain why. And a lot of men do it and it's amazing, but they, it's like they're, they're transgressing this sort of norm that we've totally made up. These are things that we've made up totally. Um, and, and don't apply anymore and actually aren't making us happier in our relationships. So like, you know, you live in the cul-de-sac and you, your buddy comes over and you're ironing a shirt and you're like, well, I mean, like, Hey, I got the worst busy. I don't know. I don't usually do that. You have to be like

arm wrestling a bear with the other hand or something, right? It's cool. I'm still a man. No homo, right? Like, I don't know. Yeah, it is true.

It's interesting though, guys, we talk about that. Like I still, I have no problem and still enjoy the old open up the door for the, I like chivalry. I love it.

I think there is a place for that without like having to, and that, that, that balance, right. Of like still being chivalrous, talking about a first date and fitting the bill. Like,

yeah, I want to pay for the first date. Like, I don't want to arm wrestle you for, for, for that. Like, I always joke about,

I love the insincere no no no like i know i got it you're like oh great um you know nothing yeah i i love the insincere and then after a while it's nice to just uh you know i'm gonna get the coffee you know kind of thing and just just knowing that you're and so i like that play you know like it to me would seem slightly, I don't know why, because maybe we're just taught this and maybe it's totally made up.

It almost feels slightly unromantic if we were just splitting everything transactionally. See, I agree. I don't believe in splitting the bill, by the way. I mean, I Venmoed for half the house because it was a large amount. But I think this is my own personal thing. I think I do like when the

guy will just offer to pay for the first date um and then i'll pay for the second one and then you pay for the third one and then we just you know it's like i'm in the way that i would do with a friend i don't know it's like we're gonna see each other again but in a way right that we're not necessarily keeping tabs exactly yes like you just it just just, it just kind of, it just develops. Like you're not, yeah. And like, it just happens. And maybe it is this like fitting up for dessert or coffee or like bringing over a, like a dessert. I don't know. It's not,

it's not keeping score. It's in the way we do it with our friends. Yeah. It's like, oh, you came into my work and I, it's like, I get,

I get half off or whatever. I'm going to get it. Oh, you just got this big promotion. Like your turn, like, you know, you just do things for people based on so many different factors.

Other than am I a man? Do I have a penis? Like, is this what I have to do? Am I a real man if I do? If I, you know, it's just so arbitrary. So since we have a lot of female audience, we have some. What's your percent? What's your markdown?

Do you know? We call them our 10 percenters. It's probably less than 10 percent. I think it's less think less than 10 when you with this we can get more men we think we have a great podcast for men we like to love our we love our women listeners but um our 10 percenters are very in touch with their very much i love they tend to be kind of anxious we're getting our women to bring some guys over but it's like like unscientifically 90-10. You probably have like a lot of secret followers, you know, who are ghost following you.

But for our women listeners, what are some ways to help us men kind of break down those kind of stereotypes of masculinity and not that it's on you women, but yeah, we can all, I'm of the belief, let's not point fingers let's figure out solution it's not about yeah um it's not about the the blame game it's it's about what can we all do better to to live in a society that is just just easier and and and we're wasting

let's let let's waste less energy living up to false made-up expectations that we have put on ourselves how can we we do that? Yes. So first of all, there's this amazing book called For the Love of Men. A new vision for my poem, I wrote this book for men. I also wrote this book for women. I want women to be free of a lot of the emotional labor that they're doing in their relationships with men. I do think that there's an unfair burden, you know, coming back to, you know, when you're the main confidant of your male partner, and that you're expected to figure all this out. It's a lot. And I don't think it's always sexy, right? When you're just the therapist and the girlfriend. And so I want this to be a tool for men to figure out on their,

not on their own, but like with themselves and with each other, right? We have so many women's spaces where women are gathering and talking about what it's like to be a woman, talking about these challenges, talking about differences and how they're not conforming in tips and advice, right? How do you not become insecure when you're looking at your friends' Instagrams? I don't know, stuff that we deal with. I think that there should be spaces for men to be able to have that intimacy with each other. I think it would be really great if you could talk to your best friends about things that are really hard and that that be helpful. I think that if everyone had more ability to emotionally express themselves. Maybe your male friends would more be able to be there for you and support you. I think that women should also examine the way that they that their own gender operates in the world.

Right. The own their own buy in of these stereotypes about men and how they are perpetuating them. Right. So if they're asking men to be more expressive and to be more sensitive are you gonna love him when he does that are you gonna be comfortable when he breaks down and he cries and you are on the receiving end of that as opposed to looking at me like yeah don't be yes exactly right it's like you know yeah and and and i think examining the contradiction that the contradictions and our expectations of men in our society and having empathy for men that like and and having empathy for men does not mean not holding men accountable right you can hold someone accountable and actually the more i think holding someone accountable is the best thing that you can do for them sometimes right that uh we can have empathy

for men that they're growing up in a society that's that is changing very rapidly in which the behaviors that were acceptable literally a year ago, right, or two years ago are now something that you could get fired and shunned for. And so that's stressful. I think that we can, as women, recognize that that can be a difficult world to navigate while agreeing that that is the world that we should be living in where women are not, you know, threatened in their workspaces and don't have like men's dicks lying around when they're trying to work. Truly. So so yeah, I think that there's there's a need for a conversation that opens up men to talk about how this is difficult for them and not just how this is difficult for women and and and we can share those things together yeah my immediate

reaction is like that's annoying we are not at a time where a lot of progressive people because this is a progressive idea are interested in yes hearing the plight of men yeah well me included i think that that's why i mean not to get i'm not going to get political this is what i would say but is like that's why donald trump has won the election i mean i um i just think there's so much male pain there's so much pain but interestingly and it's not being addressed and it's and we have this reaction of like male tears right that there's something i mean i can't tell you how many things i've heard in women's spaces that are so dismissive of the trauma that men have i think that men have been traumatized by our society i really i don't

think you have i think you've had this like amazing armor that's been that you have not absorbed any of that and that's amazing i think that there are so many men who have and i think that that trauma if we don't address it that trauma will be that pain if it's not transformed is transmitted and that pain is being transmitted to not transformed, is transmitted. And that pain is being transmitted to women right now. I don't think, I think most men are doing the best that they can with what they've been given. And what they've been given is shit. And unless women are ready to talk about that, we're never going to solve our problem. Well, that's interesting because again, we talk about, for me, I look at it as it's not about whose turn it is or who's more oppressed or less depressed. And, you know, like I totally get like that mindset. But to that point is if we stop thinking about whose turn is it to feel like we need to be heard or to hear our sad story. But if we are in agreement that maybe some of our social constructs,

the way our society as a whole has been raised, and if we all can agree there's parts of it, if not all of it, are broken and they've all played a role. And to that point, if we have this broken society of a patriarchy, that it's gonna have negative consequences on obviously women,

but to your point, maybe the men too yeah so let's not necessarily think about whose turn is it no we're not ranking right our oppressions are not this is a glorious time our oppressions are not ranked they're linked right and and it's affecting all it's affecting everyone yeah if someone is in pain and they're not they're not able to process that pain that's going to come back and and and, right? It's like, again, who's treating the bullies? Who's treating the... I think that when we look at the rise of these groups online too, this 4chan and 8chan, and where a lot of the mass shootings are occurring, a lot of these conversations and these men have actually been radicalized online. That's the radicalization, right? We talk about the radicalization of men in the Middle

East. What about the radicalization of men in America, right? These are vulnerable, isolated men. It makes sense because that's when you have these movements of progress. This is great. Yeah, that happens. You have people like they stop listening. They hear people, they feel attacked, and then they quietly find their group. Yes. And they're looking for community. That's what they're looking for. Everyone wants to be loved. Everyone wants to be heard. And if we as progressives and I'm, you know, because you mentioned, you know, that this is a progressive idea.

If we as progressives say your pain is not as important based on your gender, we are not fulfilling the mission of gender equality and feminism. We are excluding people's pain based on their gender, which I think is not the society that we want to build. I hear what you're saying. I guess my reaction is like, okay, we've spent the last, however, hundreds of years listening to your pain. You've had the microphone.

You've had the microphone. You've had the storytelling ability. You've had the microphone you've had the you've had the microphone you've had the storytelling ability you've been the directors you've been yeah you've been the newscasters it's like so but i've had your time but are the stories that we're seeing about male pain like the the stories that i'm seeing on tv and on uh that are being creating is like male superheroes it's men using violence men using you know the brad pitt actually talked about this a couple weeks ago where he said we need more male characters that are redefining masculinity to see men going through grief men going through sadness when's the last time you saw a man really truly yeah connect with another man and and and be sad in a movie and not you know

it's there's all these tropes out there and and i agree with you like we live in a society that is still so unequal towards women and i am not at all saying and minorities yeah people of color yeah and and obviously this issue of masculinity i you know talk a lot about this in the book is is totally intersectional right a black being a black man in america is very different from being a white man in america being a gay man in america is very different from being a straight man in america Being a gay man in America is very different from being a straight man in America. Being a man with a disability when the ideal of masculinity is to never ask for help. If you need help to get out of bed in the morning, that's going to be really challenging. And in a way, you're embodying this challenge and this transgression of masculinity and how it's not an ideal that even makes sense.

And so this is a conversation that goes, it's, it's, you know, I understand if we're stuck in the framing of the gender war, right? Where it's like women versus men. And it's, it's all women are good in this scenario. And all men are bad or, or the people who are good are, you know, fit into one idea. We have to break that framing. That doesn't even make sense. It's actually women plus men plus gender non-binary people and however they're identified versus rape, violence, assault, and suicide and depression. We need to recognize that our livelihoods are just linked and that if we change what it means to be a woman in our society we have to change what it means to be a man or else we're actually going to face the

problems that we're facing right now which is increase in increasing violence where men feel threatened men feel like we're trying to take away something from them and and they are believing in this framing of the gender war because even feminism and progressive politics buys into it saying that feminism is something like we need to just focus on women no we need to focus on getting rid of gender norms and stereotypes for everyone and i go into this in the book this is my my favorite data men in feminist countries are actually happier and more healthy than in gender non-equal countries it's all really fascinating it makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I,

that totally makes sense. And I kind of said this too, like I'm not a big believer in like, it's our turn and our time. I'm a huge advocate of progress, but that's the thing. Just the, the phrasing of, well,

you've had your time again is a threatening phrase. You talk about using our, picking our word choices carefully, you know, thinking for young men out there, 16, 17, 18 year olds, who like, when you had your time, I'm 16, I'm just trying to fit in.

And ideally if they're here, this young adult, 18, 19 year old man wants to be an ally, an advocate. And then at the same time, they're hearing about, no, no, no, shut up. You've had your time. Yeah, show up and shut up. You can't, you don't get to express yourself. is going to have and have a negative effect on that person

right or wrong and it doesn't mean that hurt that the woman doesn't have a you're right you you women haven't been hurt as much and it's great that we keep doing this i love that you're saying it's not about it's about the whole thing the whole system is in the sense broken and you know when you have men acting negatively towards women it affects women and then if there's again it's physics every action there's an equal yeah reaction every whatever yeah fucking it up but and and you know and i and i see you and i i'm just i i know that it's not like a hundred percent correct uh no no everyone has told me that's my reaction yeah i love that because that's what you hear. Those are the conversations that are in the people listening. I can only imagine the people listening.

There's probably a lot of people have been like, we say things. Well, wait, what do you mean? You know, it's these concepts. We have to keep talking about it because everyone wants to be heard and everyone wants to feel like it's their time. And sometimes it's a heart to share that. Yeah. To share that light. Yeah. Because I totally get it. Right. It's like, wait, all of a sudden we've had a little's their time. And sometimes it's a heart to share that, to share that light.

Cause I totally get it, right? It's like, wait, all of a sudden we've had a little bit of time and all of a sudden now we're focused on men again to try to figure out what we can do better. I think it's a constant never ending journey or challenge that we face as a society to try to not,

and I love to not get back to where we were. It's really quite fascinating. We can probably keep, we keep talking about this. It's, it's really great. I love, I love what you're doing.

And for other people out there, they can find Liz's book for the love of men. Before we let you go, we're going to play a fun little game. Do you know me? It's a game we play with with almost all our guests we like to end things light i love lightning round oh dear um rochelle and i are going to try to figure out after spending an hour with you who knows liz better wait what i'm so excited yeah we're gonna ask you a question it's fairly random don't answer

immediately we're gonna ask we're gonna we're gonna debate and and and figure it out whether we know and then and then you can answer okay those are generally the rules rochelle has selected these questions are you ready do you i'm sorry i i'm giving her props guys i assume they're great i'm here then he goes well i hope i hope you like them no i just like her uh posture she's like give it to me all right has liz ever been grounded 100 no definitely not she got to where she is because she's a badass who follows the rules but also breaks them in a nice way. She opened up the show describing a traumatic, somewhat at times, childhood. And I think grounding your kid was a very traditional, normal thing to do.

She 100% got grounded. I think I would almost even argue that she was a bit of a troublemaker and got grounded a lot as a kid. Okay, tell us. Grounded was a thing I heard on TV, but we don't do in Canada. Like it's not, or maybe. It wasn't, I didn't grow up in a household that was like very punitive in that way. I got up in the corner. Oh, in the corner.

I mean, I got told to shut up all the time. But grounded, like you're not a... You didn't break rules, did you? I actually, I did, but I always got caught. Always. And so it actually made me a better adult. Because now I... When you got caught, how was the punishment style?

I was so ashamed when I got caught that I almost... I mean, it was like, we're not mad, we're disappointed. Like, I didn't want to disappoint my parents and and we were very close and so i almost self-regulated like i knew we they didn't need to do more punishment i was like like a little shell off to an early one nothing lead has liz sent someone a selfie in the past week yes no you look guilty i literally sent someone a selfie this morning uh like two hours ago was it a girl or a guy it was me and a guy me and my my hair artist richard um and uh we were sending it to our friend leron yeah who connected us so yeah i sent a lot of selfies one one she sends a She sends a lot. She's not ashamed.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Going against stereotypes. You can send selfie and be a smart, educated self, you know, and a progressive. There you go. Not only, it's not just the dumb ones sending selfies. Why are you looking at me?

I feel like that's a stereotype. It is. Selfies, you're a little dumb dumb. Yeah. I hate that. Yeah. Selfie away, smart people. Yes.

Has Liz ever asked someone out on a date by sliding into the DM? Slip, slip, and slide. I feel like, yeah, because she's a big Instagrammer. I think she's confident. She's going against societal norms that she has to wait for a guy to pursue. And if she likes what she wants, bam, she will slide. And? Yes, I'm a slider.

Oh! I slide into DMs for professional reasons. That's actually how I got to interview Justin Trudeau. I slid professionally into, not his DMs, but his campaign manager. Have you ever slid romantically? I'm pretty sure. Maybe not straight off like, you're hot, but like, hey, would love to meet up or whatever. First of all, I hope you wouldn't say

you're hot. Right. Or I don't make it suggestive. It's usually just like, I love, you know, usually it's someone that I enjoy. Is it flirty? I think I'll be like, I love your stuff. Here's the trick to sliding into someone's DM. Uh-oh, here we go. I think I've mentioned this. You go on their page.

You do a light stalk and by light stalk you just kind of scroll the past 20 photos. Okay. You find a photo that they find they look particularly

attractive in, right? And then you send them that photo. You just like send them and then you point something out in the photo that's not them. Completely benign to the you point something out in the photo that's not them completely benign to the photo like maybe in the photo this is ridiculous there's like a tree in

the back no nick no and then what do you say about the tree anything you make a joke you're just like honest like uh let's say it was a tree maybe it's like a pair of shoes they're wearing like it's obvious like it's a bit of a thirst trap photo that they put out right and you know and they're expecting every guy to look you're hot oh my god this is you're such a babe and you're just like it's something totally totally wow it it throws people off if they think you're cute you will get a response good to know wow Good to know. Wow, I'm learning so much. That's actually such a...

And then what about on Twitter? You can't send photos on Twitter. What if you're sliding into Amazon Twitter? Yeah, well, how do you slide into Twitter DMs? It has to be text-based. You find their Instagrams.

Oh. I'm trying to think here. Like if I were to... If I were to find a photo, let's go on Liz's Instagram. I mean, my Instagram is not, I don't know.

You should write a book on how to pick up women on Instagram. Yeah, clearly. I mean, that's an art. Let me find it.

The art of, yes, the art of, the DM, the art of sliding into DMs. What are we, I'm gonna try to, I have a few thirst traps,

I do. Yeah, I'm going to try to find a photo. I have a few thirst traps. I do. I'm not going to lie. Recently, I'm... I am. I'm trying to find a photo here. What would be... You have a pretty professional Instagram. Are you doing it on her right now?

I'm trying to think if I would find... Yeah, but what would you do? Take me through the process process i'm trying to find something here i mean this is making for great it's harder podcasting he's scrolling through instagram no one uh okay so here's a photo of liz and there's a building in the back oh wow okay yeah there is and um i don't know i would pick out the building and and I would say something about it totally random really like the buildings

cheekbones I think that's a good move I think I actually think that's really smart what would you say I don't know I would find a better you have to find the right photo but yeah everyone has a photo you just say something

completely um like the photo of her holding up the book maybe right uh go back that grass looks green yeah yeah that's that's padma that's not me i wish let's say if that was you you'd say um yeah i don't know it'd be something about landscaping right i don't know right it doesn't really matter is the point like the point is your conversation you find a bit of a thirst a photo they meant to like they think they look hot in you reply back and they expect for you to point out how hot they are and you point out out like. Something different. The fact that you like Vans over Converse or something. Okay. I like that. You know.

I think that's how people should. I was forced to post that by the person who took it. I can't reveal who they are. But I would never post a photo like that. It's like. That's a good one. I would probably pick that. And I would just be like.

Really enjoying. Really enjoying your leaning skills or something. Leaning in. Leaning in. Truly leaning in. Yeah. Super fly. I would probably have been like, did you know that you would get better natural lighting

if you're actually taking a picture the other way? Oh, I like that. Or something like that. It's just a conversation starter. Right. Or slight nagging, perhaps. Not even a no. Oh, I like that. Or something like that. Or just, it's just a conversation starter. Right. And again, Or slight nagging, perhaps. Not even a no.

It's not a nag. No, I don't believe in nagging. It's not negative, right? It's not like, oh, It's playful. It's totally like, yeah. It's totally benign. It should have nothing to do with their looks.

I like that because it's like disarming. It's almost, it's how i prefer i think a lot of men are nervous about uh flirting with women and and it's now like harder and i i can have empathy for that uh and i think it sucks when we live in a world where like you can't just like strike up a conversation with a stranger and they're like uh scared about that and we so we should make the world safer for everyone but i think that it's always easier when a guy just comes up to you and says like, I

mean, the best pickup line I've ever had was I was at a bar and I was like 19. And this guy came up to me and he was like, did you just fart? Like, or like, what? Did someone like he was like, someone farted. Like he just was like, and there's this thing in Quebec where we do it when you smell a fart. someone farted like he just was like um and there's this thing in quebec where we do it when when you smell a fart and uh the last person to put their thumb on their so you did that so he did this and then i was like oh i have to do it too because it's like i didn't fart um and again he didn't say it in a way that was like negi like yeah yeah you smell bad but he just

it was totally unrelated so i'm like hey i like i didn't feel like oh god this guy wants something out of me or uh do I like him? The stakes can be really high in certain situations. And it's nice to not make it about that. And to just strike up a conversation about something super random. So I like it. One, one? One.

Yeah. Let's just do two more. Has Liz ever hooked up with someone 10 years older than her? I say, yeah, she's a journalist. She's around older men a lot in very high stakes situations. I'm going to say yes. 10 years. I mean, my ex-boyfriend was 11 years older than me.

Oh. So we dated for 10 years. So yeah, I've done it. Been there. Has Liz ever been in a relationship with someone they met at a bar? In a relationship? Yeah. Did you meet someone at a bar. In a relationship? Yeah, did you meet someone at a bar, have a little sex and then, you know, date them?

Oh, like after a one night stand? Well, no, you didn't necessarily hook up the first night, but you met them at a bar and then you became boyfriend and girlfriend. Probably, but not like a meaningful relationship. You know, like there's like boyfriends for like a month or whatever, you know, like people you're seeing, but not like a meaningful partner. Yeah no all right and last question sorry you

haven't even answered has liz ever hooked up with a co-worker say no i mean her reaction gives it away yes just wink wink we all have we've all done it it's never a good idea hr will just be pounding on our door oh god no pun intended yeah i mean that's the kind of thing that used to be far more acceptable well if you do it the right way it's still acceptable yeah i'm just never a good idea but well yeah you i i had a friend tell me if you can't not not do it do it only do it if you cannot not do it if you can't not basically like it do it only do it if you cannot not do it if you can't not basically like if you are like oh i kind of like this person like don't do it if you're like

i can't stop thinking you're slightly curious don't do it yeah you're like really really and you can't stop thinking about them and even if you try to you know then like maybe there's something there uh well as we really appreciate it i've had a lot of fun obviously there's a lot of great information that we've talked about it and i feel like we can continue to keep talking. But listen, I love this stuff. I love these type of topics. It's why I started this podcast in the first place to try to just bring up

somewhat necessarily controversial ideas, but like just non-norm ideas when we are trying to be progressive in one area, it's not to say we need to forget about other things. It's just a constant, again, journey that we're on to try to just have open discussions about different things. Sometimes they're challenging. It's a lot of fun.

And I think it's doing a lot of great things. So for the people out there, find Liz's book, For the Love of Men. Where can they find it? I'm assuming Amazon. Yeah, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, online. You can buy it at bookstores. Audible. find liz's book for the love of men where can they find it i'm assuming everywhere yeah amazon barnes and noble online you can buy it bookstores audible but yeah it's like buying it online is just easier because sometimes bookstores you know first-time author it's hard um so where can people

find you on social i'm feminist tabulous everywhere um i'm liz plank on tiktok um we could do a tiktok do you want to do a t? no okay that was a hard one it's always I don't even know what it is there's no you don't know what a TikTok is? okay I'm somewhat familiar

but I don't know exactly all right I feel like it's a boomerang it's no it's a dancing it's a dancing app it's fun there's music

it's cute but yeah Feminist Fabulous or just if you type in Liz Plank I'll show up well thank you so much I really appreciate it thank you

thank you thanks so much for listening guys appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening, guys. As always, don't forget to rate us five stars on iTunes. Sending your questions to asknick at castmedia.com for our Ask Nick episodes. We really appreciate it. As always, thanks for listening. We will see you next time.

Have a great day.