The Viall Files - E503 Bachelor In Paradise Recap w/ Jake Miller

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelor In Paradise Edition! On this episode, we’re joined by singer, songwriter, and Bachelor Fan, Jake Miller, as we return to paradise to recap the latest of the love, the heartbreak, and the drama. On this episode, after talking about Jake’s proposal, we kick things off first by getting into some Bachelor Nation tea. We talk about Rachel entering the dating world again, and we also break down Jesse Palmer’s statements about the upcoming season, with Zach feeling like a throwback. We then get into recapping the two episodes themselves, starting off with the aftermath of Rodney’s emotional exit, Brandon’s questioning of love, and then breaking down Eliza’s trip to Baltimore to pursue Justin. We talk about how valid Justin’s statements are, if he would pursue Eliza after the show, and if he was just trying to win in the moment. We also talk about how everyone is talking about wanting to be picked this season, Mara’s explosive entrance, and Johnny opening up about his family problems. We dive more into Kate’s statements regarding Logan, what her requests for him to do more actually mean, and a surprise entrance by Gabby and Rachel to shake up some drama. We talk about if Kate actually needed to be “saved” from Logan, whether or not Genevieve and Aaron are truly compatible, and the drama behind the itch versus pain argument. We close out with the Sadie Hawkins Dance from Hell, with Jessenia trying to get closure from Andrew, Ency attempting to intervene in them talking, Andrew admitting his heart is still with Teddi, and the departure of Jessenia, Andrew, and Ency from the show. “If you’re not into her, just say it!” If you are interested in running a book club in your city, send an email to: [e-mail]  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com Support a Local Bookstore: https://bookshop.org/books/don-t-text-your-ex-happy-birthday-and-other-advice-on-love-sex-and-dating-9798212185622/9781419755491 THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Total Wireless: Total by Verizon is available at http://www.TotalByVerizon.com and at retailers nationwide. Everylwell: The gift of health has never been so easy to share than it is this holiday. For listeners of the show, Everlywell is offering a discount of 20% off an at-home lab test at http://www.Everlywell.com/viall. Framebridge: Get started today—frame your photos or give someone the perfect gift. Go to http://www.Framebridge.com and place your order today.  Hungryroot: Right now, Hungryroot is offering The Viall Files listeners 30% off your first delivery and free veggies for life. Just go to http://www.Hungryroot.com/VIALL, to get 30% off your first delivery and get your free veggies. Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @jakemiller See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You can listen to The Vile Files ad-free on Amazon Music. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another amazing episode of The Vile Files Bachelor in Paradise Recap Edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by Allie and Amanda. That was the best one yet. That was good. Hello, good morning. Hello, Amanda.

Before we get started with breaking down Bachelor in Paradise, don't forget to send in all your Ask Nick or texting office hour questions at asknickatcastme.com, cast with a K. Obviously, with the holidays approaching, we'd love some holiday situations. Some holly jolly problems. If you're sad about the holidays or you're fighting about the holidays, we're sad for you, but here for you.

Family problems, relationship problems. If you're in a situation, as always, we still want to get that situationship couple on Ask Nick. So be sure to send in those stories all to askNick at CastMe.com. Cats for the K. And again, if you try and listen to the Ask Nick episode early, first thing Monday morning on the East Coast, and it was the old update episode, that problem has been fixed. Sorry about that. We dealt with that person appropriately. But if you haven't listened to it yet, go back.

Check it out now. It was fixed early Monday morning. But if you had already downloaded, if you had like an automatic download, if you listen to the Vile Files, you might have to refresh or maybe just go to like a different platform and listen to it. If you always listen on iTunes, I don't know. Yeah, if you remove the download, like $3, remove download, redownload, easy piece. And redownload it, If you always listen on iTunes, I don't know. Yeah, if you remove the download. Remove download. Remove download.

Redownload. Easy peasy. And redownload it and you'll get the new episode. All right. Our special guest today, the one, the only, Jake Miller. What's up? Musical legend. Thanks for having me. How are you?

Batcher fan extraordinaire. I am. You have been a Batcher fan for some time now, have you? Yeah. Yeah. Goes back probably like five, six, seven, eight uh probably like five six seven what was your first season you watched um i don't really remember it just feels like ever since i've had had girlfriends i've been like watching it with them and then i'm like okay i'm like super invested this is a fun

show speaking of are we allowed to talk about your yeah we are recently engaged yeah yes uh you pop the question Saturday yeah on my fiance's birthday I got the on your fiance's birthday how does she feel about that I feel like there's

always mixed opinions on proposing on on like stacking the occasions yeah well it wasn't like a it wasn't like a huge

like number birthday it wasn't like her big like 21st or 30th birthday it wasn't important yeah so it wasn't important whatever but yeah I was going back and forth because I didn't want to like take the light off of her birthday but at the same time like her big like 21st or 30th birthday important yeah so um it wasn't important whatever um but yeah i was going back and forth because i didn't want to like take the light off of her birthday

but at the same time it's like what a what a fun birthday that would be yeah and all of her friends and family came in and it was like a birthday celebration so was this planned for a while oh my god it seems like forever it felt like i planned a wedding okay yeah and now there's like a big weight lifted off my shoulders it feels great what was it was it, even though this is Bachelor in Paradise recap episode, but we talk a lot about relationships. What was it about this relationship? How many serious relationships have you had? Besides this one, just one in an eight-year relationship.

An eight-year relationship. Yeah. What was it about this relationship that made you feel, this is my person? We are just like, we have so much in common. She's like the most beautiful person inside and out. So intelligent. She's a speech pathologist so like someone in the music industry like dating someone who's just like in a completely different industry and like you can come home and talk about like completely different things and yeah and just like i don't know just just build off of each

other and hype each other up like i don't know i could go on and on about her so that's great how long you guys been together uh like three and a half years. Awesome. I slid into her DMs like five years ago. Love it. Love that. Slid on in. A lot of parallels. Like my girlfriend slid into my DMs.

She's a surgical technologist. I totally relate to you. What was the year and a half in between? In between? Oh, we were just kind of like, I mean, she lived in Florida. I was out here in LA. We were just kind of ghosting each other. Like months would go in between

I was like well if you slid in five years ago and you've only been together three and a half what was the sure yeah yeah it took her a year and a half to respond to that DM

you were fucking around for a year and a half it was just typing the whole time who alright but like after a year and a half who really

said enough is enough are we gonna date or not who put who put the feet to the fire i think there was just like some some like point where i just started like facetiming her every day um and the more i would facetime her the more i would realize like oh this girl's like really cool i don't know it just it just was like a slow slow build slow grind and uh yeah here we are here we are well

congratulations on love yeah thanks um are we going for a long engagement short engagement somewhere in between um probably like a 2024 wedding just because i feel like all like the wedding venues are so like backed up because of the pandemic so yeah what kind of wedding do you guys want outdoorsy definitely in california will you be performing at your wedding definitely not okay not. Do you have a musical friend in mind? Like I feel like there's a musical community

you're a part of. I do have, I mean, almost all my friends are musicians, but I feel it would be more like a violinist in the corner

or like a celloist or something like that. All right. Well, congrats, man. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Let's talk ring. Yeah.

What kind of cut? It's an oval. Got it in Florida. I went shopping. Zoom on in on that. It's talk ring. Yeah. What kind of cut? It's an oval. Got it in Florida. I went shopping. Let's zoom on in on that. It's a big, it's a rock. It's big. Oh, boy.

I went with my parents and Rose Gold Band. I know she likes Rose Gold. Yeah. And little diamonds around. That is large. It's a big one. How many, how many, how many carats? I think it's like a four point or something.

Okay. It's like the one Dean lost in his garage. Well, she was showing it off to her friends at the bar that night. We all did like a big surprise party celebration. And one of her friends says, catch right on. And she drops it on the floor of the bar. Is it okay? I think it's okay.

I'm like, really? You got one job. Just don't drop it. Okay. All right. I'm like, really? You got one job. Just don't drop it. Okay. No. All right. I'm just taking notes. Is that polite to ask to try on someone's engagement ring?

Like, I feel like that's kind of a no-no, especially if it's early. I've seen larger rings that the bride-to-be, I guess, has no problem being like. I guess I wouldn't ask, but I would fun let somebody try mine it was one of those things yeah i feel like they feel how heavy it is yeah at my sister's bachelorette party like half of the girls were engaged and half of us were just completely single so we were like sitting around the table and it's like oh honey do you want to see what you would look like with a ring on like we'll pass them over to you so funny that's a nice shot it's her best friend who who wanted to try it on so fair enough

it's okay but if you're just but i think if you try on the ring before she sees it like that's bad luck oh yeah like if i was showing to a friend or a family member what is it uh family stone where the sister tries it on and then it gets stuck yeah not good not good not good yeah my sister saw the ring before or brandy but she didn't try it on, and that's the important part. She did not. Nope. Oh, stunning. Looks really good when it's blown up like that.

Gorgeous. You did a good job. Thank you. Well, congratulations, man. Thank you so much. How exciting. Appreciate it. You guys have nice hands, too.

Yeah. Yeah. Really. Well, I spent 20-something years biting my nails, and I couldn't kick the habit. So now I get manicures once a week and it's the only way to not bite them because when they look good I don't want to bite them

and I think I stopped biting them finally I bite my nails too also manicures are important for everyone cuticle care you know it was mostly the cuticles

it wasn't really the nails but like I would just pick at my cuticles in the movies and I'd be bleeding and I'm like this is disgusting ow

good solution I think I'm quite the expertise nail biter. I don't bite my nails but I do pull out my own eyelashes. That's something I'm trying to work through.

I'm missing a whole chunk right here. You pull out your own eyelashes. That sounds really stressful. Yeah. And I did this whole

chunk when I was like sitting in a bar with friends like there was no reason for me to be doing that. Mildly concerning. Oops. Okay. Yeah. I go for manic walks be doing that. Mildly concerning. Oops. Okay.

Yeah, I go for manic walks around my neighborhood. I feel like that's a healthier way. That doesn't sound like a bad holiday. Get some exercise. Hopefully they grow back. They're coming. I haven't really noticed.

Yeah, that's why the eyeliner's on there. Oh, I see what you mean. Now I have to get it closer. No, I just mean in terms of eyeliner, it's a smart... I do that sometimes if I don't want to wear mascara. I'll just wear a really thin eyeliner thing right on my lash line, and then it looks like... Your eyebrows or eyelashes?

I do both. Eyelashes are harder to get away with, because then they're just gone. Okay. Oh, you look nice. Thanks, Nick. When it comes to choosing a wireless plan, you're forced to compromise. But what if you didn't have to?

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slash V-I-A-L-L. That's everlywell.com slash V-I-A-L-L for 20% off your next at-home lab test, everlywell.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Hold on to your kilts, dearies. Peacock original The Traitors is back with a new season of strategy, betrayal, sabotage, and murder. This killer season features an all-new celebrity cast that vulture hailed as reality royalty, living in a Scottish castle for the ultimate murder mystery competition. We're talking fierce competitors, reality stars, and public figures battling it out for a whopping cash prize. This season's cutthroat missions are next level, just like whatever Alan Cumming pulls out of his brilliantly eccentric wardrobe. One thing is for sure, these 21 players will do anything to avoid a plot in Alan's graveyard.

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I'm making the promo. Just keep it simple. Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros. Two guys that talk about Bravo. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav Bros. No. Dude, stop with the voice. Just keep it simple. I've seen promos. No. Oh. Dude, stop with the voice. Just keep it simple.

I've seen promos on TV, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are going to get tired of it already. We need some oomph. All right, then fine. Let's try to do it with your voice. Brav bros.

Good job. Let's get into some tea tea let's get in it rachel former bachelorette rachel rakia is dating again all right she has fully announced that um she went on a date it was a coffee date that kept things casual with this guy do we know who he's not in bachelor nation he's in the music scene perchance you know him we don't know who it is but mystery guy slid into her dms another dm slide all right it's a way to go apparently she said there will be a second date and when asked if they kiss at the end of the date she said maybe um but she said that she wasn't sure how to start

what's with the maybe i don't know i think it was a cutesy way of saying yes yeah it's definitely not no yeah if you don't kiss you don't say maybe yeah then. Then it's embarrassing. All right. Well, maybe. I feel like it's a yes. Okay. But it was actually other former bachelorette, Michelle, who convinced her to go. Apparently, she didn't want to go. She didn't know how to necessarily revert back to normal non-bachelor dating. But Michelle was her hype woman and encouraged her to go.

And thank God she did because now we're going on a second date. Way to get back out there. Yeah. Where'd they go? Some coffee shop, I guess. Michelle and Rachel strike me as a very powerful friendship duo. I feel like both of them bring out the alpha can control any given situation energy in one another. I can see them entirely throwing a full bachelorette party, like just tackling anything, you know, really like having a U.S. like a U.N. peace accord. Like I just feel like the energy that they would bring as friends is both like such intense, fierce, like let's get it done.

Do you feel like Gabby is going to join in on that now that she's single or is Gabby like a completely different energy? Well, I'm curious what other people would say. I think Gabby could have that energy if she had to. But I think that's not her baseline. Yeah. I just saw Gabby the other day at Dancing with the Stars, and she seemed happily with that guy. And then I saw like two days later.

But Eric was there? Yeah, he was there. When? When did you go? Maybe like two weeks ago. Wow. Three weeks ago maybe. Didn't he like post in support of Gabby? She did that interview after an episode.

I think it was after Halloween night. And she was saying that they were supporting each other from afar. He did an Instagram story saying, like, vote for Gabby, but he wasn't there. Yeah. After they broke up, he did a vote for Gabby. Yeah. Which, you know, nice. But rumors are swirling in the Dancing with the Stars fan community that she might be addressing it tonight because it's the semifinals.

And typically, it's like that's where things, like like get emotional and they have their little like she's using her relationship with eric to get votes i don't know who knows if she'll even talk about it but it's a semi-final so she might she's a good dancer yeah it's crushing it yeah it's crushing it well you were you just there for fun yeah uh brandy was we were watching on tv she's like i want to go to dancing with the stars i'm like i know someone there okay let's do it so we went i should go back one of these days can we go i want to go to Dancing with the Stars. I'm like, I know someone there. Let's do it. I should go back one of these days. Wait, can we go? I want to go. Were you on it? I'd probably take Natalie first.

Well, I just didn't know if you'd... She was on, but clearly forgettably. You were on it? Well, this was the first season I've seen in a long time. Amanda! I'm a bad dancer. It's okay. Was it fun? I had a good time, yeah. I don't think I could do it. I can't dance, like, at all. You can't dance at all? I don't think. I haven't really tried in a long time at all. You can't dance at all? I don't think.

I haven't really tried in a long time. Is it the choreography that scares you or is it the... You have like no rhythm? No, I have rhythm. I don't know. I just haven't danced in like since I was like eight years old. So like now I'm just like scared to try it. Well, I was going to say you have the energy of like the one eight-year-old boy in the hip-hop class.

It's like a bunch of like young girls and then there's like one boy. Is that a good thing that I have that energy yes because I would think that you were classically trained like do you feel like you would be more comfortable

on like a dancing with the stars situation or a wedding dance or freestyle having a good time no that's where I thrive like in Wausau Wisconsin you're at a wedding

would you be able to dance dance dance or like you know drunk dance like everybody like have a good time yeah hell yeah I'm always but like would would people in Wausau, Wisconsin go, that guy can get down? Or would people even in Wausau, Wisconsin be like, no.

No, I think here they would say no. It's like whipping out a pasta doble. Like, it's ready to go. You know, I just don't feel like a lot, you know, maybe there's some people in Wausau, Wisconsin who can crush the dance floor, but I feel like your typical wedding there are not, you're mostly are not trained. I think even they would judge my dancing. Is that your gauge? Like it's always just like, what would the people at Wausau, Wisconsin?

I don't know, it just popped in my head. As long as they do an X, Y, and Z. I picked an obscure town. Nick, do you identify as someone who like, people would be like, oh, he can get down. How would the people in Wausau think you were dancing? Yeah, no, I can dance. Can you?

For the people, yeah. At a wedding, I can shake. I can shake. I can shake it. I'm not like great, you know, I'm not like, Gabby's obviously way better than me. Especially from a choreography standpoint,

she's, but like, yeah, I'm better than what you might expect at a wedding. Probably because of the introvert factor. Like, I think that's the only reason people would expect. Or the skating. You're a good skater.

You skateboard? No, he little, like, roller skates. Oh, cool. Little roller skates? I don't know. I don't know what he's gesturing. He puts his little feet in his roller blades.

They're not blades, though. They're like the four ones, right? Yeah, but why do you got to mock? I couldn't think of the word whose word is this his little rodent your hands I was trying to show

that it was two entities do you ever like go to that Venice skate park I used to I used to live right by there really yeah wow

that's sick yeah cool anyways sorry to go off topic crushed congratulations to Rachel on her.

Yes. Getting back out there. Getting back out there. Keep our eyes peeled on Gabby this evening. And finally, Jesse Palmer is starting to drop little hints about Zach's upcoming season of The Bachelor. Maybe it's just me,

but I keep forgetting that they already announced him as Bachelor. I really. It's not a good sign. Yeah. But he said, he was kind of giving a tease and he said,

Zach has been amazing. He's incredibly intelligent. He's mature. He's very emotionally mature. Zach's season is a bit of a throwback. This season is a lot more about the romance and the love and maybe a little bit less about the drama. So does that just mean the girls aren't?

He did also continue to say like the girls are really just there for Zach. So everybody's boring basically. God. Sounds brutal. Throwback. Well, you think about like the tone that they usually like

for the promos are like the most dramatic season ever. And it's like the most traditional one yet. to wholesome love story. Like it just doesn't

sound the same way. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know though. Oh. Well, that wraps us up. Not a big week. Well, a lot to get into.

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I guess it just starts. We're still crying over the exit of Jesus. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. So many tears. Morning. Brandon is wrecked. I know.

Brandon is done. I mean, I get he's your boy, and I understand you'll have to find love, but we haven't seen Serene and Brandon in ages. They've been napping. And all of a sudden they pop out of nowhere to just both. We were watching, and I asked Natalie, would we cry over our friend getting ghosted or something? Yeah. I mean, I suppose we have friends in relationships who have been dating for a long time and they've

become good friends. And I would be sad if I found out they broke up today. And I guess in paradise, everything's heightened. And it seems like, I noticed that a lot of these episodes, there was like eons and a couple of days were used to describe the same relationship by the same person. And so obviously timing and context is just a little bananas in this world. So who knows? But yeah, I guess they're, I mean, again, I've met Ronnie multiple multiple times i consider him a friend wonderful wonderful guy but damn he's the one person on the show that i that i know in real life and i love yeah he's great yeah i might shed a tear if he left i'd be fine

i was texting him while it happened i'm like dude you handle that so well like he's just such a good guy yeah i met him at a chargers game, and we just stayed in touch. He's a really good guy. He's a great guy. Do you think Brandon is afraid of, is he projecting an insecurity of, well, if it could happen to Ron, it could happen to us? I don't know, because he was very much like, the scene of him and Serene on the beach, when he was going on and on and on about,

I love you so much, there's never going to be a day where I'm not loving you like that. It felt like it was almost like a pre-proposal speech. I mean, you would know like it was it was a lot of big statements happening. Do you think Brandon is just always waxing poetic? feels things very deeply yeah i do and i love that for him yeah i think he's in tune i think he's connected in a way that not everyone lets themselves be and i think it's big waves of feeling i don't know i also wonder if it's more of like almost a guilt of like i'm so happy and i thought you were finally gonna join like hop on the happy train and then you got kicked off or like you got a ticket but then it was counterfeit like i think it was something about the the whiplash of like the yes then no but what do we think about like eliza flip-flopping like and the way that translated to her rekindling stuff with justin or that attempt attempt attempt to rekindle yeah going to his house what did you think i mean obviously i i

don't know justin in person so i was you know i love rodney as i obviously, I don't know Justin in person. So I was, you know, I love Rodney. As I said, I don't think she should have, you know, flip-flopped. And she said that she, like, got, you know, persuaded by everybody who was saying that they have so much love for Rodney. But that's a good reason to be persuaded. If everyone loves that person, like, maybe you're not seeing something that everyone else is seeing. Yeah, but haven't you ever, before you found love and now an engaged man haven't i'm sure you had people try to set you up yeah but when everybody is like i mean i get it like if she's not feeling it obviously like follow your heart like i i don't blame her for doing that

but i'm team eliza here are you interesting yeah i'm not the only one go rodney i wasn't loving her speech to justin doesn't seem seem like Justin's into it though either. I'm just like Eliza versus Justin, I guess. Not versus, but I didn't think Justin made any sense. I mean, that's okay. That's not true. I think he made some sense. I know we talk a lot about being aware whether you're an option or not in relationships.

And that's the thing. We talk more about just being aware of the're an option or not in relationships, you know? And that's the thing. We talk more about just being aware of the possibility, especially early on. It's like, it might not be excited about you. And clearly, Eliza seems more confused and excited about any of these relationships. Maybe that's something. But I guess here's what I'll say. My concern, if I find out that at any point that Justin ends up pursuing Eliza in any way after this, then I will feel like Justin was just more concerned in that moment. I think he's just playing games either with himself or with Eliza. You know what I'm saying? Like, would you, and if you found out, let's say that after this whole thing got done airing, let's say Justin and Eliza kept talking or pursued a relationship, would that change your opinion?

It would be interesting if Eliza was willing to then pursue stuff with Justin after he did not fight for her. Oh my gosh, the amount of times they want them to fight. Yeah, but like respectful conversation. But like obviously Justin was like, no, I think I want to feel more chosen than this like big theme is everybody like wanting to feel chosen everyone wants to be chosen but then it's like okay but also like how are you simultaneously chosen and able to be a chooser if like you're both wanting to have both that then both of you need to be able to everyone has flip-flopped now at some point I guess what I'm saying is is, did Eliza do this perfectly? No.

But she made a tough decision. She woke up the next day pretty quickly after the fact. Had a, hey, this doesn't feel right. She broke up with Rodney. Wasn't pretty, but it was respectful. And then she was honest about, hey i'm gonna go after justin she went to baltimore knocked on his door and sat down and it's just like listen like all i'm saying is if i just got a feeling justin said no not because he's not interested in eliza because he was on

camera but because he yeah was on camera and wanted to, you know, stand in his power and have his moment. And, like, there's going to low-key be like, you know, like, let's just, maybe let's just see afterwards. But not until I, like, put you down a little bit for, like, not picking me first. And it's just like when, I loved how Liza was like, I don't know, I've known the guy for three days

like sorry I didn't like figure it out you know like it's it's one thing you know like if Natalie broke up with me today and said sorry you know met someone else and then like three months later comes back I was like you know what I had to date someone else so I could know it was you I'd be like you know what I don't know if I want to be an option. But this is not quite the same. And it's just like, I don't know, man. You've known someone for a couple days. They made a pretty grand gesture to try to make you feel validated and special.

And if you don't like her, fine. Just say that, but it's almost like I just didn't like the energy of making her feel like she didn't. Justin made it seem like he's not going to pursue Eliza because she didn't do it right, because she didn't do it exactly how he wanted him to do it, the way that he wanted to be loved and pursued, just like Kate or Eliza did earlier. and pursued just like some of you know like kate or eliza did earlier and it's just like kind of like you said it's just like someone like has to

just like have a piece of humble pie and say you know all right like let's give it a shot she was with rodney you come down justin yeah that's a great gesture and you're clearly clearly just there for her but she has longer experience with rodney. You take her on one date. Like there's just, it wasn't even like equal across the board. They didn't all show up at the same time. Yeah. Are we agreeing or disagreeing? I can't tell.

I don't know. Well, I, I agree that yes, they are not all coming at the same time. This show is musical chairs. Like, yeah,

I guess all I'm saying is if you if you're not into her then just say that but don't make her feel like there would have been a chance for you guys to date had she gone about it a different way when you guys have only known each other for three or four days and if i hear that you pursue her outside of this show then sir and i love you justin i've met him i consider him a friend you're playing games you're playing games with yourself you pursue her outside of this show, then sir, and I love you, Justin. I've met him. I consider him a friend. You're playing games.

You're playing games with yourself and you're fucking up a potentially good situation just because you want to have a moment on TV. Damn. Damn. Damn. And I'm open to be convinced otherwise, but like what's stopping him from being like, you know what?

Yeah, like let's go in a, sure, let's go out, let's grab, you're in Baltimore? I know a couple of good restaurants. Let's go. You know, like let's go on a sure let's let's go let's grab you're here you're in baltimore i know a couple good restaurants let's go you know like she's in baltimore she came to see him and if again if you're not interested if all of a sudden and a day and a half you're not interested then fine but like i don't know it just seems a bit performative. Jake, what did you make of it? I agree. Did I convince you? Yeah, you can.

Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, listen, I think he was definitely like, it looked like he was like in his pajamas when they opened the door. So he was probably like super caught off guard. But I would like to see them actually go out and try things. And that way we could be convinced that

Justin actually really likes her. But yeah, that's crazy that they actually like went to Baltimore with her. I don't think I've ever really seen like anything like that on Bachelor in Paradise where they like go to someone's hometown. Really? Not like this. Not in the middle of the season. Right.

I love Justin's good fake surprise face. Oh my God. He did a lot. He was like, what? Guys, he's known for his facial expressions. What did you expect? Yeah. I know.

But like clearly. It was multi-staged. Yeah. It's like they didn't just show up at his door. So does he think that like just like the producers are coming by to say what's up and then like they surprise him with her? Wait, didn't they say, I think they mentioned that he got a call that Eliza was coming. Didn't know? I don't know if it was that Eliza was coming.

Maybe. They might just say, hey. We're going to stop by for a surprise. I just can't imagine. You know, it's one thing to try to keep these people in the dark when they're in control of the atmosphere. But, like, if they're flying to your house, like, I don't know how much.

They can't just show up and be like, we're showing up. Right. We're going to film you. Like, Justin has a right to say no to that. But he's in a meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Like, he could be at work. He could be anywhere. Like, he could have been like Right. And we're going to film you. Like, Justin has a right to say no to that. But he's in a meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Like, he could be at work.

He could be anywhere. Like, he could have been like, why are you guys coming? Yeah. Like, I'm almost, I would find it hard to believe he had no idea, Eliza. At some point, they might have been coy. They're like, I don't know, maybe someone from the beach who wants to, like, try out a chance to date you or something like that. And maybe it starts with an E and ends with an A, you know know or if he just looks out his window and sees her getting her filming her

walking scenes outside the door then he opens up around the block again i can't believe it you it's you thank god he's on the main floor though that was convenient yeah right there right there anyway yeah i don't know i just i I feel like Justin shot himself in the foot. And I think he might have ruined the chances of potentially a good thing. And yeah, Eliza's not without blaming all this, I guess. And not that we're trying to really blame anyone. But I think, like you said, it seems like everyone's just more focused on how they want love to find them rather than just figuring out who they could be most compatible with and work through some of the dirt that is, let's say, dating and figure out if there's something there.

And it would be a shame if there's something there and Justin did what he did. It's also such a good illustration of the fact that people believe whatever they want to believe like you know the idea of like how we all have stories about events like justin made this story like she did not choose me first and therefore like i want someone who does when he could have made the story like she never gives up on me like she's not afraid to like come back and make things right even when it's like complicated and difficult like it's like and both of those are just like versions of reality you can live in and neither is more correct than the other but it's funny how like once he settles on one he's like yeah this is like this is my emotional narrative like this is what's happening when it just so easily could have been like uh but i feel like she kind of shot herself in the foot

in the way she delivered it to him like she gave him the update and it was all focused on rodney what she told rodney like what she like i felt like she didn't present it in the right way either she was like I mean Rodney that he deserves someone who picks him first I wish it would have been more like she's she's a quiet spoken kind of more demure person like that's fine and also like she definitely owed Justin some answers like when he left she picked another dude so it seemed it would make sense that she would want to provide Justin with some context.

You know? Again, if they don't want to date, they don't want to date. It's just, if I hear Justin trying to pursue her in any way, then sir, you are a game player. Yeah, it's like that tit-for-tat thing of like, you didn't give me a rose, and I felt rejected and embarrassed.

So on some level, I had to like, not necessarily reject you or try to embarrass you, but I had to like not give you that like ability to come back into my life without some kind of like reactive. Yeah, I don't know.

Maybe there's something we're also not seeing too. You know, who knows? As we always say. That's what I was going to say. How much was edited out? Shows are edited. Because that conversation was probably much longer.

Of course. Yeah. Of course. There was definitely a lot more that was said that we didn't get to see. I wonder, because with Paradise, it's like how much do they really get into feasibility of relationships after the fact? Because I'm like, where's Eliza based? I think LA.

I think. It's like we can look it up. But ultimately, not Baltimore. No, no, noa based? I think LA. I think. It's like, we can look it up, but ultimately, not Baltimore. No, no, no. It is LA. Yeah. So it's like, and I think that's probably like transition. I'm sure we'll discuss this more as we get into like the potential engagements, but it's

like how much, because I feel like with Bachelors, it's like hometown. There's this very specific time where it's like, let's talk about logistics and like fantasy suites. Like, let's figure out how this might happen in the real world and it's in paradise like when is that turn where it's like okay but like can we do this i don't well who's who are you asking like i'm asking like everyone what you well no i mean yeah but i'm i got the impression you're like asking the show like when they're gonna bring it up to talk about it and i don't the show doesn't care yeah i guess i mean you're asking the show when they're going to bring it up to talk about it.

And the show doesn't care. Yeah, I guess I mean like... I mean, the show doesn't care if you live on Mars. Did you feel like there was a time on your season when people just like there was kind of a trend of everyone being like, oh, okay, let's scramble and actually see if this is feasible. I don't think the show cares about compatibility at all.

I think they care about chemistry a lot. I don't think they care about whether anything's gonna work it feels like like watching these episodes like it was like all fun and everyone was like just kind of goofing around and now it's like everyone's super serious and like seeing a lot of people leave it's like scaring everybody and now everybody's like shit can i do this like can we actually like be fiancees and get married one day yeah um it seems like it's starting to get serious it It's like beach fatigue now, too. Even like Mara showed up. Everyone's just like, you know, I don't care.

Yeah. She's like, everyone's really tired. I know. I felt so sad for her. So I feel like that we did her dirty. That was very edited, I felt like. I was like, you're telling me not a single person got up to give her a hug. Like, I felt like there was some splicing of footage that was not.

Maybe, but I do think they probably accurately captured the energy yeah that is kind of you know they've been there for what two and a half weeks now there's definitely it's again it's a lot like summer camp there's a lot of bonding that's happened i think i remember being in that in those shoes and like the late arrivals you're just like i guess all right what's your name sure you know like it's i don't really fault anyone it's just how the show is it happens every season but yeah i felt i felt bad for mara boy when they just they just sit her down in a chair she will talk andrew and mara on that daybed and she said i'm over here when he wasn't looking at her yeah they were not vibing she's a firecracker firecracker

yeah yeah she was doing some shimmies i was like she's bringing so much energy to this and they were giving her nothing i get it like you don't like if you're talking to somebody who's being aloof you want their attention andrew owed her that i mean again she had the right to say something but if there was ever a chance if andrew was in any way thinking maybe you know'll say yes to this. When she was like, I'm over here, I can assure you. In his mind, he was like, nope. He's like, yeah, so anyways, I'm in love with just basically.

It was like after that, he's like, yeah, so I'm in a relationship. Everybody was pretty much just saying, yeah, like I'm very serious in relationship. Like it's nice to thanks for pulling me aside, but I'm going to go back to the daybed. And then you have the twins, I guess. Why Justin and not Joey? We didn't even see footage of her talking to Joey. How did she possibly make a decision which one she wanted to make a churro out of?

True. That's true. My assumption is... The jewelry? No, that one made himself more available when she talked. Did she talk to Joey and they just cut it? No, the person she went on a date with. Was it Joey? Justin. Justin. She talked to Justin.

She talked to Justin, but we didn't see her talking to Joey. So how did she possibly on the date bed be like, I don't know, I got one twin who wants to go out with me. What's the point of talking to the other? Yeah, that's true. I wonder if part of it is being like, oh, Sinead or this like Flo who like we don't know her. She's from

Australia. Flo called herself the path of least resistance. I was like oh Flo. I really liked her. I love Flo. She's great. I feel like they've hidden Flo from us. I'm like she said some shit

during this season that they have not aired and I wish they did. She's like a free spirit I feel like. She's Russian right? No I think she's Swedish. I thought she was Dutch

and then she's on Bachelor. I know she is. That sounds right. Pretty sure. She's Dutch. Dutch, and then she's on Bachelor in Paradise. I know she was Dutch. That sounds right. Pretty sure. She's Dutch. She's Dutch, but she was on Bachelor in Paradise Australia. Well, people, I mean, she might be originally from. No, that's what I'm saying.

Wait, was this also the first year that they included some people from Australia? They've had a few other people. Courtney, a guy, he was on Bachelor in Paradise America. They've had a few others. And they had a guy this season too. But yeah, they've done it before. Anyway, so yeah, Mara goes on a date. We get a quick update from Johnny and Victoria.

Not going to age well. What did you think of him saying he's, Johnny said he's now open to the idea of getting engaged. It happens when you're not looking for it and he wasn't looking for it before, despite just going on The Bachelorette. Yeah, no, it doesn't make much sense. So I'm like, so why did you go on the show if you weren't looking for it before, despite just going on The Bachelorette. Yeah, no, it doesn't make much sense. So I'm like, so why did you go on the show

if you weren't looking for an engagement? Did that just blow open his potential motives? Yeah, I mean, listen, I think in life, people are really good at convincing themselves of things. We've talked about this before. I think Johnny is really into Victoria. I think he likes her a lot more than he liked Gabby. I like them both together.

I think they're cool. Are you glad she picked him and not Alex, the other guy? No, I didn't like that guy, really. But Johnny's cool. He seems really shy, which sometimes comes off like he doesn't really like her. But I think that they're really good together. They seem good together. And Johnny opens up about his family.

I feel like that didn't really get the attention it deserved. Yeah, his brother's like in prison yeah and his mom is you know his health is struggling but it just seemed usually you know that like gets a date or there's like a moment this was more like a quick up like a side conversation you would think they would have focused on that a little bit more you we're not seeing much of johnny and vict. I wonder if that has anything to do with where things stand now. I mean, they're not really focusing on any of their couples.

Kate and Logan. They're not focusing on any of their, like, what seems to be, at least now, happy couples. Kate's intense. That's a good descriptor. She scares me. I feel like if I was dating her, I would just be like scared. So like walk on like, I'd be like just walking on eggshells all the time around her.

Well, and she's saying, he's saying things to her like, I feel like you talk down to me. Yeah. And she fully denies it. But then she's turning around saying what car he drives and how little he has going for him. Kate is an example of why people criticize anyone in relationships with a bit of an age difference because Kate is seemingly, Kate talks about how much she wants a guy or at least her, she doesn't even talk about wanting her equal. She talks about having a guy who's taking charge and providing and do all these things and yet she's investing

her time and someone who's considerably younger than her i got no problem with that but like if you you know if you want to be in a relationship with someone with an age difference then you have to recognize that you don't get to date them and then try to mold them up and make them who you are you have to accept them as your equal i feel like he's gonna watch all this back and like see her talking badly about like his beat-up orange car like who cares about your car like and and i feel like unless there's something that they're like not showing us like that maybe he doesn't have a job or like hasn't had a job in a long time like he's just she's making it seem like she just knows that he's like broke and like that he can't like support her but and you know what if that's not for you, that's fine.

Don't date him. I don't know if I really even buy Kate wants a guy who takes charge and does all these things. Because if she does, then why is she investing so much time in Logan? But she seems to really enjoy being in charge. But have you... So I don't like the way that Kate is going about this at all.

But have you had this fight before? The like want more fight because i have and it's like it's a fucking mind and that's not to like excuse any of kate's behavior but like have you had this fight like with a partner that like you're like can you please give me more like i feel like i'm giving you so much i'm hoping if you've had it it didn't include all the other things kate has said and most of the time when you have that argument of like can you give me more it's like i need more love from you i need more validation that you're in this too it's not like i'm gonna need more financial support once we you know get out like that's what she's saying because he's not like you know he's not like not showing her how he feels like he definitely is he definitely likes her a lot so it's not even about like the emotional give me more it's like just work harder and give me and

make more money for me like i don't know well and she even said something like she's like my mom always said this is the best time of the relationship and this is what you're supposed to be getting the most which i've heard that before but again you're on the beaches of paradise this isn't a situation where he can pick you up from work or like drop you off coffee like there isn't that same normalcy that a day-to-day life is so you can't necessarily base what normal life is gonna be like yeah off of what's going on right now that wasn't interesting like the whole like if this is the best it's ever gonna be because i've definitely i feel like there's that sentiment of like especially like some of my like mid-40s female friends are like wait till you get married

like the shit will go down like it will be 20 times worth any flaw you see expect that to be like you know like i do feel like that is a narrative and i'm curious what you guys think about that yeah newly engaged yeah um i disagree with it she already dropped off the face yeah i'm already regretting it um no i'm just just kidding. But I disagree with it. I mean, especially because it's not like they just had like some romantic meetup at a bar where they locked out. Like they're on a TV show, a reality TV show

where it's probably really exciting. And obviously it's going to die off when they're home. But I wouldn't say like their relationship right now is like the most romantic and the best it's ever going to be. Like, I think that grows with time as you get to know each other. And when cameras aren't on you and you get to like talk about things that you wouldn't normally

talk about on tv and like all the little things that you discover about each other but again i i'm not 40 or 50 years old so yeah who knows and yeah i mean i'm sure when you get married i have never been married and i'm sure it does get harder and more intense but i think that also might speak you know i think a lot of people marry who marry people are not as super compatible with. Yeah. You know, I think. It's like musical chairs season where it's like most of the friend group is married. Yeah.

I think a lot comes down to who you marry. Yeah. My parents are high school sweethearts and I think they love each other more now today than ever. So I kind of model my, what I want after my parents. Wait, Jake, what do you think the key to success is? For my parents? Yeah. That's a great question.

Should we call them? Yeah, let's call them. They're actually on a flight back from LA right now to Florida. They came in town for the engagement. But I don't know. I mean, they're kind of opposites. My dad is kind of like the loud class clown, and my mom is like the more like reserve.

But I don't know. I think opposites attract. And more than anything, they just like really support each other and they love each other they brag about each other they're always dancing with each other i don't know if there's like one key to success but yeah yeah i don't know i mean i i do clearly obviously marriage is going to be harder and there's more serious things but yeah i also do think a lot of people get married to people they're not super compatible with so it it's all it's all perspective it's situational i suppose but i just feel like when kate is unhappy it's not her fault yeah because i think the thing that's i think so tricky about the more fight is that like and when i've when i've had the more fight it's like i want

you to show some kind of like initiative like i just want I want to feel like you want to be here is like kind of what it's come down to for me. And I think that's hard because you kind of end up in this catch 22 where it's like, OK, well, then if you do more, you're just doing it because I told you to do more. When it's like really what you're arguing with is your own perspective that maybe you deserve better. perspective that maybe you deserve better. And like, you're trying to get somebody else to like, speak to that fear when that's actually kind of an internal conversation about being like, is this a relationship where I feel like love scene, et cetera. And sure, there's maybe like a little bit of change in a partner's behavior, but overall it's kind of like a you conversation. There's something about the way Kate says it too, because when you're describing it, and I feel like you're speaking from personal experience and for people who in those

situations where you just you feel like you're just not getting something you really need like you know someone's not maybe meeting your love languages or something or communication style or you know and you're just like I just really need this you know I need can you please it's yeah it's like reciprocity yeah and with Kate it's more like I don't even know if she needs it I know she wants it you know I know know she, I think she knows she thinks she deserves it, you know, but it's not coming from a place of like, Hey man, I really care about you. We have so many good things, but can you just like help me here? I really need this. And I really need, I want to feel like this. And, and it would really help be helpful if you could do this. And this is how I feel love. Could you work on this,

please? No, it's, it's very motherly. I also think it's so, they touched on this in the episode about the fact that she said that in the middle of the rose ceremony. Like, I just think that is such an inappropriate time to have that conversation with your partner. It's like dragging him in front of all of his peers. Like trying to shame him.

He's like, this is when you're supposed to say nice things about me. Yeah, literally everybody else is like having their sweet little moment she's like can you give me more and he's like uh i don't know what you mean but i think so and then like you know lindsey lindsey comes down and poor lindsey logan's kind of like god you know what do we think logan should have not entertained it it should have it was just it was so hypocritical i felt felt like, on Kate's part.

Sure. She was finding any opportunity. He's trying to say. She just wants out. I think Kate just wants out. She's like, he was saying, I didn't say yes. I didn't say yes or no. Before I said anything, I pulled you and I wanted to talk to you.

And that's not enough for her. She's then saying, no, you should have just said no without even talking to me. Yeah, he never really entertained it. He just didn't shut her down. Yeah, when he brings up her date, she goes was days ago days ago she goes i'm a different person yeah eon she says it was eons ago i'm a different person really kate how please please give us the master class or the ted talk and how one becomes an entirely different person in two days yeah i could also see logan though in terms of

like the narrative that already exists about him being kind of like playing the field i could also see why it would be like a low reward high risk situation of him like potentially pursuing lindsey because i think it would validate a lot of criticism that I don't know is necessarily fair but that is definitely like on the tip of people's tongues with him yeah and like I think it's also like should we talk about like Gabby and Rachel and like the way they contextualized the men what did we what did we think of Gabby and Rachel showing up because I know I'm gonna get criticized for not having anything nice to say about Rachel but but like, what did we, what did you guys think of it? I was telling Jake before we started recording, I was like, it had the same energy as the

girls who have been in college for three or four months and come back on Thanksgiving break to their high school and like distract everyone in the middle of class and all the like seniors are like, great. Now we have to sit around and. But I just, I did not understand from it. of class and all the like seniors are like great now we have to sit around and but i just i did not understand from it it sure seemed like gabby and rachel came down to shit on logan to warn kate of all people to like somehow save kate who didn't need to be saving because all kate wants is an excuse to get out of this relationship at the end of paradise and the two bachelorettes come

down to rescue kate and shit on logan for what like am i missing something do they not show something or like what what am i missing because if like i remember like let's just play the like logan's story you had two bachelorettes it was a lot of like we don't know what's going on no one knew what was going on we have two bachelorettes rachel was in her feelings i don't know i feel like maybe she got rejected by someone i don't know what's going on. No one knew what was going on. We have two bachelorettes. Rachel was in her feelings. I don't know. I feel like maybe she got rejected by someone. I don't remember.

But someone, you know, like it was, you know, obviously a stressful environment for everyone. Well, she had the rose ceremony where she was rejected. Then she had the wrestling date where they weren't paying attention to her. Okay. Was that? I don't know. I don't remember. But at some point, she had a nice chat with Logan.

And she called dibs. She was like like dibs. Oh yeah. That was even before the cruise ship. And there was no like conversation with Logan. I'm like, Hey Logan, who are you feeling?

No dibs. And Gabby was just like, okay, well I just want to be there for my friend. She's in her feels right now. Logan's all yours. That was the discussion. Okay,

fine. But like Logan had a say and that say was to be like, I don't know. And like imagine the pressure in that environment. Be like, you know what? Rachel wants to date you. Okay. Like I guess I'm going to. Right.

I barely know them. So I'll go to this direction for a while. Then after a couple of days, Logan. Yes. He was the one person who like switched. No, but also the damning moment for Logan was he already realized he wasn't into rachel he didn't have an opportunity to talk to her and then at the rose he accepted the rose and his voiceover said do i like want to be with rachel no but i would be stupid if i you know gave up

an opportunity to talk with gabby at some point that's what people didn't like i understand that he didn't do it perfectly you know and the And the voiceover, I don't know. And I'm not saying Logan's not without criticism, but I'm just saying he had a right to, like, not be into Rachel, and he had a right to be slightly more into Gabby. Yeah. And he certainly could have done it better. I'm sure he could have communicated it better, of course. But then he went to Gabby.

Gabby was in it. At first, he had that great cocktail hour with Jesse Palmer at the cruise ship bar where they talked about their feelings. And Gabby was seemingly excited and gave it all a shot. Then he got sick and nothing happened. And it just seemed like Rachel came down. You know, I just like I hated the end. I just like I understand. I empathize with Rachel why she might, you know, not love the situation,

but I just really hated how it just sounded a bit vindictive. You know, she's like, he thinks he's the bachelorette. Like, we need to do something about it. He has the power. What? And I agree with all the girls who were on the couch talking while, like, they were off talking about how, like, you can't judge someone on them flip-flopping in the past because that's all you're doing.

You flip-flop until you find your person. If you flip-flop, it's because they weren't right. So it's like... What is the crime here? And I feel like Gabby was just there to support her friend Rachel again. And again, unless we're missing something, then what...

They had their two bachelorettes come down just to like dump on Logan for Kate's sake I would have loved to get some dates on like when exactly

this was filming because clearly they all are oohing and aahing over Gabby's ring it was before her and Tino broke up Rachel had her ring on

yeah Rachel had her ring too but they didn't include any sort of clip of people looking at her ring that I saw I thought there was like one minimize oh okay maybe maybe i just remember them talking a lot about gabby's i don't know but you know what i would have loved to have seen i would have loved to have seen and maybe obviously they didn't know this was going to happen at the at the time but i would have loved to seen a conversation between victoria and gabby because that would

have been a lot more impactful and interesting and meaningful than Gabby and Rachel coming down to dump on Logan for what it seems like no reason. And just kind of, the show made them look petty. Maybe they weren't trying to be, and maybe it was like, but the show made that situation look,

it made Gabby and Rachel look petty. I agree. Because I really loved both of them during their season but that wasn't a good look. It just wasn't a great look

and I'm just saying like, why, like why didn't they have Gabby come down and talk to Victoria and have a like, an honest conversation about like,

yeah, it's a really good thing with Johnny but he wasn't ready to get engaged. Yeah. How are things going with you two? How are things progressing? Like, he with Johnny but he wasn't ready to get engaged yeah how are things going with you two how are things progressing like

he wasn't he wasn't ready to settle down and Victoria be like well I have some of those same concerns let's talk about it that would have been interesting yeah like but that didn't happen I would have come across a lot better and more like I feel like Gabby could looked better better. Woman to woman. It could have been productive too. Maybe something good came from it or maybe it created conflict. I don't know. But like I would have loved that conversation.

And again, we don't, we've never met Kate. I don't know. We don't know her as a person. Maybe this is, maybe Kate's putting on a show. Maybe it's highlighted. I don't know. Yeah. It has been very localized to a relationship thing though.

So it's like, I wonder if she is a good friend she might be an amazing friend who are like amazing friends and then you see the way that they're like making choices

in their romantic relationships and you're like oh boy I think Johnny I think Johnny's a good friend I think Johnny I bet Johnny

is a great friend to his guys like for sure and I don't know how Johnny is in relationships but I bet he's a much better friend

than partner people make great friends and bad partners all the time do you think people make good partners and bad friends probably

but probably less less common I mean if you throw everything you have into a relationship and ditch your friends yeah if you go to boyfriend island

yeah yeah sure that's a thing that's definitely a thing I've lost a lot of friends just because they're like alright I got a girlfriend now i'm never gonna leave the house does that make you ultimately a great partner in the long run because i feel like if it's that

drastic it's it's not really about the relationship it's just more of a personality trait yeah you don't know how to manage yeah boundaries and just because you're giving your current partner all your time that's just because that's what you're excited about in the moment yeah yeah there's probably something deeper going on there yeah in terms of validation can we talk about itching versus pain that was hilarious thank you ali i i well what should we just play that whole fight because honestly while watching it i'm still confused it well because it was basically it was never about the itch versus the the pain he used that as an example of her saying i'm impatient and i'm this is how i'm feeling and he goes well that's the same thing it's like saying it's like he then jumped to the itching versus pain yeah as an example and they got so

focused on that so not even jenna was was like, I'm impatient and I'm stressed. Something along those lines. And he was saying, he then paraphrased and said, oh, so you're blank. And she goes, no, that's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth. She was like, I'm frustrated. So what was the thing he said she was? She said she was frustrated.

He said, you're annoyed. And she's like, no, I'm not. Erin's line, though, she's probably taking her designer bags on the jungle path right now. And then it cuts to her doing that. That's funny. You're not wrong. They're an hysterical couple. Yeah.

Let's just try to break it down here. Okay, so she said, I'm impatient. She then said, I'm annoyed. And he said, I'm impatient. He said, you're stressed. She said, no, I'm not stressed. I'm annoyed. And he goes, it's the same same thing it's rooted in the same

thing then jumped to the itching and pain and said because itching is low level pain as someone who's like was an itchy kid like I'll go to bat for like I get what you're saying that itching can be painful but like that's

really not the point of their argument. Why didn't he just say, I'm sorry you're feeling like that? I do think itching pain is a great conversation starter. To Aaron's credit, I feel like we could argue about this

for a good 10 minutes. First date question. You know how some people are like, is a hot dog a sandwich? That's their big debate. Is itching pain it's a good one there's a lot to say about the topic it's a meaty question but like aaron is this like every time it was just like look it up yeah look look it it's a fact it's a fact look it up like big facts i don't think that's a fact that's an opinion it depends on your pain tolerance they're both feelings

they're both sensations but yeah they're depending on you cannot look that up depending on how you perceive a sensation yeah one might be painful and one might be an irritant yeah i also think it was like he was close to doing the right thing because she was saying like how i'm feeling and i feel like one good response as a partner is to be like, oh, totally. I validate that. Maybe it's also like this. Like, you know, like trying to relate. And he was almost doing that.

But instead he was like, no, this is how you're feeling. And she was like, what? No, that's wrong. And then they like pivoted completely. And then it was just like the way it snowballed. Yeah. I just love how they didn't, neither of them made any sense.

And you could tell that the other person couldn't figure out what the other person was trying to say they were made for each other these two people like we're talking about chemistry versus compatibility these two people have so much chemistry and they're deeply compatible are they though i don't know i mean they they they might be too similar kind of like you know jake's parents there's some opposites there but no one's there's no one in that relationship is is like letting the other person know like we shouldn't walk off this cliff you know there's no one in that relationship saying we shouldn't run this red light you know like you know i'm saying there's them them together is a tragedy waiting

to happen i would argue the red light's gonna get run so you might as well have someone else in the car who's down with it, as opposed to another person being like, please, please stop, break. I don't know. There's no one there to say we shouldn't drink the Kool-Aid. Well, itch and pain are closely related but distinct sensations. They share largely overlapping mediators and receptors, and itch-respond responding neurons are also sensitive to

pain stimuli but they are separate sensations oh there we go well we looked it up aaron yeah you false have been found wrong itching is low level pain sweet nectar my man oh my god the the fucking nectar conversation i mean i was just having a good time i when the best line for me was when the sun dips low beyond the horizon sweet next sweet when you get a sip of that ice cough like everything's shortened yeah i mean listen i think that's what i think they're charming in those moments i love it yeah you know i i've i've heard i've never met aaron and everyone who's met him said he's a fun, lovable guy to be around. And he's good TV, but he just does shit that makes so obnoxious sometimes. I'm going to go find Aaron sometime.

You still want to have sex with him? Yes. Oh, my God. You know if he's a- I would tell him not to run the red light. Do you like a, are you into like a mimbo? No, not really. A himbo, you mean?

I don't know. What's a mimbo? What's a mimbo? A himbo. A man bimbo? What's a mimbo no not really a himbo you mean I don't know what's a mimbo a himbo a man a man bimbo what's a mimbo a man bimbo you're wrong

I don't know I've never heard of it look it up look it up no literally it is himbo all the comments are gonna be like mimbo maybe I'm aging myself

it used to be mimbo okay well mimbo's a fun phrase I think himbo is more of the time it's himbo himbo's a new it's himbo I think so a new it's i think so yeah do you know if he's still dating jenna v i don't know slide on into them dms are you into

that the pretty face like do you want like is serious question not i don't know i don't feel like i have a distinct type per se i feel like you want to date him or just have sex with him both you would date him yes for a little bit i'm not the type of person that like just wants to have sex with someone you don't seem compatible on a cerebral level as is what i'm wondering and i'm and that's fine i don't know like i'm not here to tell you who you should love or what you prioritize in terms of compatibility but i'm generally asking is is a himbo like someone you might be attracted to i don't know i haven't in the past there's just something about him okay all right well i listen i support this thank you i'll send

everyone updates all right what do we got next back the sadie hawkins dance should we wrap up with that oh well let me say that sadie's talking to thomas and becca arrive that's all kind of what that's what i was saying that whole chunk chunk. Tyler and Brittany go on a date. Okay. Not much there. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

They seem nice. Thomas and Becca show up. Oh, no, back to Aaron and Genevieve. Aaron made a comment. He goes, for whatever I did, I'm sorry. And it's just like I kind of empathize with him but at the same time because and I've seen you know people have made those types of apologies I feel like I have in in relationships we're like honestly I don't know what is upsetting you I'm sorry just I'm sorry

can we make this can we just make this better I'm so sorry but like Aaron saying for whatever I after that whole conversation he just says for whatever for whatever I did, I'm sorry. Which tells me he doesn't know what he did. And I'm glad he's sorry, but unfortunately, he doesn't know what he's apologizing for, which almost certainly means this will happen again and again and again and again and again and again. But since all their fights are about such small, non-important things, maybe they

can have these over and over again fights and then just have crazy sex afterwards and then just forget about it. I think for a period of time. Yeah. They'll just get annoyed with each other. I mean, they're like classic young love. I mean, they look like two 16-year-olds in a relationship. They remind me of every high school relationship that's

ever had. Yeah. How old are they? They seem fun and sweet, but I just feel like they might. Aaron is 27. I think Genevieve is also 27. I'm so glad we picked other people. That was great. That was a good moment for us. Yeah, I feel like they need people to level them up.

Done. Or out. Done. I don't know. I'm just like, you guys understand each other. That's why I. They don't, though. He literally says, whatever I did. I'm just like you guys understand each other that's why I they don't though he literally says

whatever I did I'm sorry yeah she's like I accept your apology but he understands that he needs to just apologize

and I'm not I don't stand by that's a shitty apology but he does understand that he's like I'm not gonna win yeah no I don't think

he's Darren's I think Darren's probably a great guy you know he's a sweet guy just like you know some I do think he needs therapy but I just think there's so many people. I think Aaron's probably a great guy. He's a sweet guy. I do think he needs therapy. But I just think there's so many people who'd be like,

okay, you're trying to leave again? Godspeed. Like what? But Aaron's like, nope, I'm going to go. I'm going to talk to you. Love himself a good jungle pal. We're going to talk. We're going to have tense. It's going to be tense for a minute.

Then I'm going to make you feel loved. And then you're going to take your bags back. Yeah, but there's not fixing anything. But the first time he did that, he brought his bags back. And I thought that was nice. Yeah. He wheeled those babies back. Becca, Brittany, and Tyler went on a date.

She said my boyfriend, Tyler. I thought that was cute. Oh, yeah. She said my boyfriend and I are going on our first date. I like them together. They seem like wholesome. They're cute. They are wholesome.

We just don't have much to say about them. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're wholesome. Unless you't not much to say about them yeah yeah well they're wholesome unless you have more to say when me and my fiance were watching The Bachelorette

whenever he was on that was last season right I think she was like he reminds me of you and I'm like okay I like that guy then but ever since then

I just kind of like feel like we look kind of similar yeah you have a similar eye twinkle yeah eye twinkle you both have very pretty faces yeah thank you it's a twinkly smile thank you appreciate it so we just go into oh we wrap up with becca thomas

and sadie hawkins dance yeah back i mean thomas just wears a a good 80s suit oh also they said that was 90s theme i don't know was 90s? It seemed like a lot of decades. It seemed like a mix of 70s in there. There were some 80s. Wells had like an 80s suit on. Thomas's suit was more 80s. And that's someone who is a 90s kid. Yeah, same.

I give the contestants more of a pass because they didn't know to pack for this. Production clearly bought them uniforms, right? Or outfits or costumes, uniforms. I don't fucking know. Oh, these are all new things. Never mind. I take back.

I'm assuming, yeah, Wells didn't pack a Miami Vice suit to Paradise, right? I was saying the contestants. I thought they had to wear their own stuff.

Everyone gets costumes? I mean, I don't know. There were definitely like some bright pink neon, like, what are they? Like aerobic? I haven't been to Paradise since they started doing these prom

and Sadie Hawkins-themed type of dates, which I quite like. But I'm guessing they didn't dress themselves. I see. They had the sweatbands around the heads. Yeah, but. Oh, my God. Yeah, just the NC. We got to talk about the Andrew, like, Jesenia.

Please, please, please. I don't feel like jessenia or nc either of them looked particularly great what was does anyone know what jessenia jessenia's point was i think she was going back to their conversation on the beach when andrew had said i'm not able to give you everything that i can because i'm in this dark space. And she said, well, you've not given me the opportunity to get you out of this dark space. I think from Andrew's perspective, that was kind of tying up their relationship with a bow and ending it. But I don't think she felt like that was the end. And I don't think she felt like she got the clarity or the closure that she wanted.

So I think she was just trying to say, tell me how you feel. Like, where is this? Like, just be honest with me because I'm watching you you go on a date with NC only talk to NC. Yeah. But her, and here I am standing her. She started critiquing like his whole paradise experience. Yeah.

What'd she say? Like sliding. She's like a bro's trip. Skirting. But she basically was criticizing him for dating. Yeah. Which is what you're supposed to do on the show. Because like andrew obviously

had the whole clearly clearly came for teddy you know he reinforced that teddy left him abruptly no real she just left she literally left she was like she told the cameras i don't know if i'm feeling this andrew guy got uncomfortable i don't know like it peaced out on andrew and i think well i know that andrew was really really into her really bummed out okay fine in the real world sometimes we're dating someone we like someone they don't like us whatever we're disappointed so what do we do we keep dating you know rachel rachel's out there didn't work out with her and tino she's dating again right you went on a couple dates with britney or I don't know, I had a cup of coffee or something happened with Brittany. Tyler shows up. Brittany's more into Tyler. All right. Didn't work out there. Josenia shows up. They seem to have, I don't know, some interest

in each other, but like clearly there doesn't seem to be much there. We haven't seen any of them. I forgot that they're in a relationship from either of them. They're not really showing, you know, whatever is going on, we're not seeing much of it. And even the people on the beach, I think, was it Logan or someone else kind of said, well, they, they had a thing for however brief it was, was kind of something along the lines, Logan said, they kind of acknowledged that it was like, they didn't, they were unclear of what was going on. And from what we saw, it sure, it does seem like Andrew really didn't like sit, just like he seemed like he said yes to NC without really talking to

Yesenia or, you know, and maybe they had some kind of conversation, but I agree. He probably could have been a little bit more communicative, you know, maybe, I don't know,

but like, that's not what really Yesenia was complaining about. She was just more trying to make him feel bad for how he's going about his dating experience she's just i don't know it just sounded confusing that you're just kind of dating all these people and what does that say about you you know it was almost like she was trying to like therapize is that a word therapize you know like but she was like she was trying to like you know what does that say like do you? Like, do you want to, like, how does that make you feel? Like, how does that make you feel that you're going around and you're like, just like dating

all these people without really making any connections? And it was just like, listen, if you still like them and you want to, then say that. Like, if you don't feel like you got closure, then say that. But what, it just feels like she, to to me it seemed like she knew there wasn't much of a connection she felt a bit slighted she didn't like that andrew was having fun with someone else at a dance and just try to make him feel bad about it yeah for dating i thought that was the wrong approach for sure i well i think it's that thing of when you're together like you're kind of on the same team you're like you answer to each other for your emotions and then

once you're broken up like you no longer get that and it seems like her trying to like continue to recreate that like like you're impacting me by like making out with her on the dance floor and i get it like that's no fun like that sucks to watch but it's it's also not something he necessarily owes you like that's why you're broken up is because he's no longer like showing emotional consideration for you in all these specific kinds of ways yeah i don't know if she truly knew that they were fully broken up i i think she knew that otherwise she would have said that right but i feel like that was kind of part of her point was trying to figure out exactly where they stood because obviously she knows he went on this date

with her i have no problem with her wanting getting more information she had just stuck with that as opposed to jumping into, what is your goal here? What is your goal here? What is your goal here? And then try to, like, yeah. What did she think he was going to say? Teddy broke up with him. To fuck?

Brittany broke up with him, whatever that was. Or it's kind of a mutual. Yeah, or whatever. But she wanted more clarity and then tried to accuse him of essentially leading women on. It feels like it never reached a certain point of vulnerability, which is like, you're not a bad person for that. There's nothing wrong with that. But because this is becoming a pattern, I just want to know, are you okay?

You say pattern. We're supposed to expect Andrew to jump headfirst. He just had his heart broken with teddy he tried to pick up the pieces and said you know what i'm gonna britney c seems nice let's give it a go she clearly wasn't all in you know so what andrew was supposed to jump what head first feet first whatever you know and be emotionally all available even though he was still trying to get over someone else, even while Brittany, like I'm just saying, where could have,

if we're going to criticize Andrew or anyone, it's just an observation. Like he didn't have the observation. He's had several women this summer that never reached the, the deeper connection. And that's not to say there's something wrong with Andrew. It's just, there's an implied accusation.

I don't think there is. I don't think at is. Not from us. At all. We love him. And that's why I'm saying it's okay. If coming from a friend is totally different. What is he supposed to do with that? It's the same thing as Logan.

You just hop around until you find the person that you really like with. But they're dating. But with Logan, I don't remember all of Logan's dates to compare. But I'm focusing on Andrew. I emphasize Andrew. With Logan, I don't remember all of Logan's dates to compare, but I'm focusing on Andrew. I emphasize Andrew. It's just like here he is. I think he genuinely wants to meet someone.

As much as anyone there, I don't know about more, but certainly as much as anyone. I think character matters to Andrew more than most people on that. That's a defining character for Andrew, character, having on that like that's a defining character for andrew character having good character it's a defining character it character matters to andrew more than i think it matters to other people on the beach you know i think it truly matters to him and he's really trying to do this the right way and he's not doing it perfectly but like when if jessenia says that like she's asking for an answer you know she wants him to explain himself and she's suggesting that he's not opening up with these women and not really giving any of these relationships a chance that is an accusation

i'm not saying she's accusing of being terrible but she's accusing him of not doing this and i'm just like where where along the lines has he given whether it's jessenia or his buddies a reason to like question his intentions why i don't understand what where's the note what could he have done differently it's not like uh like you needed you did this wrong you needed to do this it's a like hey this is what happened like these are all the things that have happened i'm curious if there's any kind of through line here like i'm checking up like just to see what's going on fall in love with somebody who doesn't want to fall in love with i think it's just a point like his person isn't there sure i mean i get as a buddy you're just like hey man

how you feeling about your experience that's fine fine. But I just don't, the idea, anything past, how are you feeling? Like, it seems like you're doing this X, Y, and Z. And I just want to know why I don't, I don't know what that X, Y, and Z is. You know, I don't know what Andrew needs to explain to anyone about what he's dating and he's been broken up with. And he's just trying to like deal with what he's, he's, you know, and the first situation where it seems like just sending might be slightly more into him than he is into her.

That's like the first time he's, you know, where he's like, I don't know if I'm, I might be. And then, and then he is doing the very thing that Yesenia, and you might be suggesting he is doing, which is not trying and not being

emotionally available. He said, I finally met someone that is, I'm getting a little excitement of something. I don't know what it is, but I'm excited. I'm going to see where it goes. And he's having fun and he's dancing. He's doing the thing that he's being accused of not doing. And it's fine that just,

if just like you, I agree with you, Ali, if just any wants a little more closure and like if Andrew desert, if he wasn't as communicative as he should have been,

just any, by all means, like get more, get more information and like that you deserve. She deserves that for sure. But that's not what she tried. That's not how she went about it. I completely agree. I deserves that for sure, but that's not how she went about it. I completely agree. I think that conversation

with Yesenia, yeah, like you were saying, starts out with a, I want closure, but it very quickly becomes, I'm having a shitty fucking time watching you make out with a girl, and now I'm going to make you feel bad for that. I'm going to make you answer for that. Yesenia's also having flashbacks to the dance last year where she went through all of this again. The same thing, for sure.

And then NC, was that kidnapping? Yeah. Oh my God. No. What an L for her. She said please like 600 times.

That was uncomfortable. No, I mean, she wouldn't let him go. It was a lot. Yikes. Do you think it was because she liked him that much or she just didn't want

to leave the show because she just got there? Who knows? I was just like, was she super drunk? You know how sometimes... Combination of alcohol. She's never been... I don't remember her on Clayton's season,

so she probably wasn't on very long. I think there's an added level of pressure for these people to try to make up for lost time. Yeah, Mira was like, this is my first one-on-one, you know? And so I empathize with that pressure and they already feel like an outsider and like, we gotta make the most of this. And I think she just snowballed and panicked.

I don't, you know, but yeah. It was a lot. Not a, that's definitely a tough beat for her. Do you guys like, does everyone just drink like all day when you're there? Depends. Some people are drinkers and some people aren't. Because no one ever seems drunk or hungover

and it just blows my mind. I think they're just, yeah. They just cut that out? I think they are more drunk than you realize in a lot of cases. No one ever seems sloppy. I'm like, don't these people just sit on the beach and drink all day? The combination of the sun and alcohol, I would have to leave 24 hours into being there.

I think they're less sloppier than they used to be just because there's a bit of a a drinking maximum per hour oh gosh where you can't just like just keep shooting shots yeah i also but i do think they're i think they're in a lot of these cases there's alcohol is playing a role yeah i also think unless it's like an obvious like this is a huge part of your personality is that on night one you got way too drunk like these are people who have withstood like at least a little bit of time in the bachelor environment where there is free-flowing alcohol so i think it's like people who can have the right combination of like self-control to not make people be like okay have one less but also are like drinking enough that they're saying wild shit and making good

television it's that sweet little window right there yeah yeah just any leaves andrew leaves nc leaves damn bad vibes up at sadie hawkins i feel like andrew had a as good of an exit as he could have had i mean i andrew's a great guy i mean he's he's up there with jesus yeah i think uh andrew i what i like most about Andrew and I've got to know him is that when I say like it's he makes having good character just it's a priority for him constantly like even like I loved how when he I don't know forgot what he said but just sending asked him a oh no it was it was NC asked him a question and he was like this is how i'm wired like i want to deal with this and again you could i think you can nitpick whether like who's you know who andrew should have focused more on his time is on but like you could tell that in that moment like andrew was like i'm representing who i am this is important to me these are my values like and andrew has

certain values that he always adheres to and I just have a lot of respect for him because even in these tough situations he still prioritizes his character and his values over anything else and I don't think that's always the case in these environments yeah agree okay yeah who do you think are the couples that when you think about like potential engagements like you really see it happening in the real world working out. Yeah. Final predictions. Brandon and Serena. Serena. Serena.

Brandon and Serena. I think number one, maybe now I was going to say, I don't know. I think that might be it. Honestly. Really? I feel like that's the only couple on the season that's going to like last.

Stand the test of time. Yeah. I feel like Danielle needs to meet Michael's son first before there's any sort of. Maybe them too. I forgot about that. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Danielle,

Michael, they can work out. But I two. I forget about that. Yeah. I mean, Daniela, Michael, they can work out. But I think they would want James to be involved. If they end in a relationship, I guess I could see them working out in a sense because they are both older and more mature in a sense that they've, I think they're, I think they're more pragmatic in their decision making. Yeah.

Like the polar opposite of Genevieve and Aaron. Totally. Oh, I could see Tyler and Brittany having kind of a grocery store Joe Kendall situation where it's like a meaty, meaningful relationship that lasts a year or two. Yeah, maybe. They break up because of real world reasons.

So you mean leaving dating or leaving engaged? Leaving dating. I would say leaving dating but then kind of that. Were Joe and Kendall engaged? Never engaged. Never engaged. Never engaged. Joe and Kendall were never engaged, okay? Okay. Yeah, so maybe like a Joe and Kendall.

I think like, yeah, three or four couples will probably get engaged. Yeah, no, we'll see. I really would have liked to have seen that conversation between Victoria and Gabby. What a miss. What a miss. Jake, thanks for coming, man. Dude, thanks for having me. Please let my audience know all the great things you're doing,

where they can listen to your amazing music, all that kind of stuff. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. First of all, that was a lot of fun. Jake Miller across the board on all social media, on Spotify. Go listen to my music.

I just came out with a new EP called Based on a True Story 2. What's it about? I've been making it over the last year, and so some of the songs are true to what I'm going through. The other songs are just good songs that I think other people can relate to that I might not exactly be going through.

Okay. Yeah, they're all different. Some happy, some sad. Is it out or coming out? Just came out. Just came out. Seven brand new songs, yeah. Seven new songs?

Yeah. I'm going to go listen to them on the way home. It's got some saxophone solos. Ooh. Is that you playing? No, I wish. I tried to learn, but it is so hard. And when you live with other people,

I lived with some roommates at the time, and it's just so loud. And when you suck, you really suck. So I'm just like, let's stay in my closet. Well, go check out Jake's new EP and stream it right after you get done listening to this episode. We are back on Thursday with the one and only

Jason Nash, as well as some final thoughts on the Love is Blind cutie scene, and then some other Love is Blind tea or gossip we'll have for you, and some texting office hours.

Well, I know this was super last minute and I'm so happy I didn't ghost you or like say no because I didn't realize how big of a production this was and I'm really happy I came and thank you for having me. I'm happy you came, man.

When you said I'll be in a bind if you don't come, I'm like, shit, I need to like watch these episodes right now. So glad I came. Thank you for having me. He was like, I'm coming. And I was like, I got engaged.

I'm like, you're fucking showing up. Yeah, my bad. Oh my gosh, yeah. Monday morning after engagement. Yep. Here you are. Hey, thanks for having me. was like i'm coming and that's like i got engaged i'm like you're fucking showing up yeah my bad oh my gosh yeah monday morning after engagement yeah here you are yeah thanks for having me i had a great time thanks for listening guys go check out jake's new music uh we will see you back on thursday and sorry if uh if you were listening to ask nick on monday and uh they played the update special we killed the person who fucked up so don't you worry but yeah uh it's it's it was fixed early monday morning but if you haven't listened to the ass nick episode because you

thought it was the old episode it's been fixed so go back and check that out other than that bye Bye.