The Viall Files - E506 Timelines and Receipts - Bachelor In Paradise Finale Recap

Episode Date: November 23, 2022

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Bachelor In Paradise Edition! On this episode, we’re joined by Natalie Joy as we recap the dramatic two night finale of this season as we get the answers on who stays in love and who will leave brokenhearted. Before we get into the Bachelor drama, we start things off by drawing attention to the situation in Iran. We then break down and react to breaking news about SK and Raven from Love Is Blind, involving a potential court case and another woman. We then get into some Bachelor Tea, addressing the social media posts from Kate and Logan after their breakup, Logan going along with the joke, Ali making her Bachelor Nation debut, and Sierra’s reactions to being specifically requested to return to the beach. We then dive into the two day finale itself, breaking down the last moments of paradise and the reunion show. We get into Wells recapping the season, Mara leaving on her own accord, Jesse having trouble addressing emotional hardship, and the final rose ceremony that has Kate breaking up with Logan. We also dive into the twins going home, Shanae unintentionally being mean to Joey, Aaron communicating that he wants to end the relationship with Genevieve, and Tyler and Brittany leaving Paradise happily together. We then move to the reunion to get the updates on how everyone is doing since leaving the beach. We recap the reveal that Tyler and Brittany have split, Brittany claiming she couldn’t get the space she needed, Eliza saying she felt like she made a mistake regarding Rodney, Justin looking Eliza when he was in Los Angeles, Johnny coming out to talk about his breakup with Victoria, Victoria’s accusations of what Johnny called her, the timeline of their breakup before Victoria starting dating Greg. We also recap Tyler and Johnny talking about Victoria outside the studio, Greg appearing and showing off their new matching tattoos, why they chose to go on a date in Rome, and the happy engagement with Brandon and Serene to end the season.  “She saw the signs and stepped away.” If you are interested in running a book club in your city, send an email to: [e-mail]  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com Support a Local Bookstore: https://bookshop.org/books/don-t-text-your-ex-happy-birthday-and-other-advice-on-love-sex-and-dating-9798212185622/9781419755491 THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Total Wireless: Total by Verizon is available at http://www.TotalByVerizon.com and at retailers nationwide. Milk Bar: Right now, Milk Bar has a special, limited time offer. Get $15 off any order of $80 or more when you go to http://www.MilkBarStore.com/VIALL. OSEA: For a gift that will impress, check out OSEA’s Bestseller Minis Collection. Right now our listeners get 10% off your first order with promo code VIALL at http://www.OSEAMalibu.com. You’ll even get free samples with every order, and orders over $50 get free shipping. Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You can listen to The Vile Files ad-free on Amazon Music. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of The Vile Files Bachelor in Paradise Recap Edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by Allie and Amanda in the studio. And our loving and lovely guest today is none other than my girlfriend, Natalie Joy. Our loving and lovely. Yeah, just came out that way. We are calling from none other than Aububurn alabama the uh home of

natalie joy it's my first time uh in the place of her birth is it is it yeah this is where your formative years were yeah i wasn't born here but i did move here at one so one she took me to an sec game lovely time it was nice i mean i'll be honest. Everyone told me you got to go to an SEC game. It's crazy. As someone who's from the Midwest, who's been to Big Ten games, who's been to Packer games, it was an awesome time. But I feel like the people in the SEC feel like they're doing something a little bit more different and a little bit more intense. And I'm just here to say it was another lovely and enthusiastic. I'm going to cut them off and say that that's the only reason is because we've only won three games. It's also the week before Thanksgiving,

so everyone went home for Thanksgiving. I mean, the Packers are doing terrible. And if you show up to a game at a tailgate. I don't know. I think it would be a little wonky. Anyway, War Eagle, everyone from Auburn, it was a lovely time. But ladies, how are you? Good. We're holding down the fort.

Yeah, I'm so good. My mom was in town, so I'm glowing. My room is clean. My backlog of laundry is done her boyfriend is back my boyfriend's back everything's looking up for me yes oh fresh I have organic berries in my fridge I never buy myself organic fruit so shout out to Karen and I saw had some really good restaurants in LA now I feel like I actually have recommendations for people I feel like usually when people are like oh where should I eat in any, I panic. And I've got some ready-to-go suggestions.

The Dunkin' Donuts Twitter tweeted yesterday, PSA, don't meet your ex for coffee over Thanksgiving. And someone sends me, and I couldn't help, and then I tweeted someone from Dunkin's reading, don't text your ex happy birthday. Do you think they did read, don't text your ex happy birthday? Or is it just a coincidence? It's that time of year

where the exes start popping up and especially if you're going home and it's someone from high school or someone who lives there, it happens. So you're saying the person who's managing Dunkin' Donuts Social didn't have to read

don't text your ex? You weren't the first person to say that, unfortunately, yes yes but what i will say out of the supportive team no nick i'm coming to your defense because we don't know the influence of culture where there could have been a conversation sparked about exes by someone who was reading your book and then they had that conversation with all their friends and then that person's like oh how about dunkin donuts and coffee and you know what's the same as wishing your text somewhere a butterfly flapped birthday? This is the butterfly effect.

Thank you, Amanda. Natalie, Allie. We'll see ourselves out. Lots to get into. Before we get into the fun stuff, talking about the finale of Bachelor in Paradise. Also, I think there's some love is

blind drama to first discuss. But we wanted to draw some attention to the very ugly and very unfortunate situation that's going on in Iran. And simply because I just think more than anything, no one's really talking about it, you know, relative to the other things we talk about that are going on around the world. And obviously, we have our own problems here at home and things like that. But for those of you who aren't aware of what's going on in the situation in Iran, Amanda, can you please update our audience? Absolutely. So I would say the event that made these protests and these underlying frustrations that Iranian women have had with the government and the general society came to a head when Masa Amini, who is an Iranian woman who was 22 years old, was taken into custody by the morality police. This is a force in Iran who is meant to. It's a real thing. Yeah. Like it sounds ridiculous, but it's a real thing.

The morality, please. Yes, and they're there to enforce Iranian code, one of which involves women covering their hair and wearing a hijab. So Masa was traveling to Tehran, the capital of Iran, and was taken into custody for allegedly not wearing her hijab properly. She was taken to a re-education center, which is where the morality police can take women to

re-educate them on the standards and expectations. These are places that are incredibly unmonitored. These are run by the government. It is a really scary place to be taken for women. And Masa died while she was there. The Iranian government leaked videos and claimed it was an underlying health condition, or they published videos rather, showing a woman collapsing. Many people think this was blatantly fake. And also because of some of the images that surfaced of her, of Masa in the hospital, like many people believe this was an act of brutality and that she was beaten to death. So this has sparked protests around the country. In Iran, women are expected to wear hijab and cover their hair. So in some

ways, there's very intense influence of Muslim rule. But there's also more than half the university students in Iran are women. So this is a country where women are educated, where women are at the forefront of many different industries and have been able to achieve a high level of success for themselves. But that is with this sometimes stifling expectations and rule on them. a protest that are, everybody is outraged by the like senseless, probably murder of Masa, but also all of the other women who are routinely subject to dehumanizing behavior. And if you're wondering kind of, it's of course, you know, with any political situation, there's so much more context and background than you can possibly fit into a short kind of recap like this. But basically these protests have been going on since September. You might see women like cutting their hair or burning hijabs in the street as an

act of rebellion. And many of these women, they're protesting for the choice. They're not saying that no Muslim woman should be wearing that. They're just saying that this should be an individual decision and not something that is mandated violently and violently enforced by the government. And so if you're wondering kind of as a woman in the U.S. who's maybe just learning about the situation or what to do, I think it's always best to go directly to the source. There are some amazing Iranian journalists and Iranian-American journalists who are covering this. And so in addition to kind of like seeking out some of those directly from the source information, which we can totally post on Wi-Fi Instagram.

If there's many also human rights organizations who are helping support protesters. And another thing that I saw that I hadn't been aware of before, so I want to spread the good word, is that we can also pressure universities in the U.S. to support academics, whether that's waiving the admission fee or just making sure your university is aware to, again, platform the people who are most aware of the incredibly nuanced situation going on there. Yeah.

And is it true? I mean, haven't they detained over like 14, 15, 16,000 people? Yeah. Protesters? Yeah. So the government, so if we want to get into protests, the government has been trying to very violently quell all the protests that are happening around the country it's not just in tehran the capital city these

are going on in such a small scale level uh in like more remote cities and villages and the government has used a lot of like very violent suppression tactics and so it's pretty it's pretty nasty like i did i i thought i read something read something about potential mass executions going on. Is there accuracy to that? I think it's really hard to know. We definitely know that there's protesters. It's hard to know the scale. We definitely know that there is protesters who are being murdered, we know that there's like very like in addition to like being murdered, there's like violent tactics being used to try to suppress them that are like causing harm,

not necessarily death. So it's like there's an atrocious scale to the situation. But again, because of like the way the government can sort of try to control and censor the media and the reporting on this and also the danger of journalists trying to come forward or anybody coming forward and sharing the situation that's going on, They're not only putting themselves at risk, but their family at risk. So it's really hard to know the scale of this just due to, yeah. And to your point, Amanda, I think mostly what I think in these times, people are always wondering what they can do. But more than anything, I think awareness is a key thing. Sharing any type of journalist who might be covering this, Yashar Ali on Twitter covers it very closely. He's Iranian. But yeah, honestly,

just resharing, posting about it, just bringing attention to it, I think more than anything, posting about it, just bringing attention to it, I think more than anything, and putting pressure on these, obviously, people or countries who are violating people's basic human rights, I think is a great place to start. If you do nothing, do that. And I think, hopefully, that will go a long way, because it sure sounds like some very horrific atrocities are happening. And certainly we talk a lot about our rights in this country and those are important, but people are potentially being murdered and assaulted and beaten for some very basic expressions of personal freedom. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to acknowledge the bravery and strength these women and people in Iran have to get up and protest knowing that they're either going to be detained or murdered, but they're doing it for their people and the people after them and the generation after them to try and change this law it's it's it's crazy yeah yeah i mean it's some true bravery that is going on um so uh i think these people need all the support we can give and we certainly at a minimum

need to acknowledge that it's going on and not pretend that it's not totally and i think sometimes with situations like that are so complicated and nuanced and where you know there's so much context and history that's relevant it can feel kind of intimidating or overwhelming like even jumping in i found like an episode of the Daily from The New York Times interviewing Farnaz Fahisi, Fahsihi, that came out on the 28th, an Iranian uprising led by women. That was a really helpful starting point for me. But even if it is intimidating, like just try doing a quick Google search, going on Instagram, TikTok, like there's all these amazing creators, of course, be discerning about who you're getting information from.

But like it is worth jumping in. You can totally understand it. It's accessible and it's worth seeking, taking the time to do it. And some more exciting news. Hold on to your kilts, dearies. Peacock original The Traitors is back with a new season of strategy, betrayal, sabotage, and murder.

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Switch to TurboTax. Make your moves. We'll make them count. See guaranteed details at TurboTax.com slash guarantees. Experts only available with TurboTax Live. Ladies and gentlemen. What are you doing? What do you mean?

Just keep it simple. I'm making the promo. Just keep it simple. Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros. Two guys that talk about Bravo. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav Bros. No. Oh.

Dude, stop with the voice. Just keep it simple. I've seen promos on TV, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are going to get tired of it already. We need some oomph. All right, then fine.

Let's try to do it with your voice. Bravo, bros. Good job. Greg and Victoria will be on the Vile Files next week, Tuesday, for our first freestyle episode of the season. So as you guys know, in the last Bachelor Off season, we just kept

cranking out episodes. We'll still be covering your most recent Bachelor Tea. Obviously, I don't know what's going on with Love is Blind. And there'll be a lot of pop culture freestyle episodes usually if we don't have an interview. But Greg and Victoria will be in studio for our first freestyle episode. Lots to talk with them. What happened, why should people believe in their relationship, what's different about this relationship versus her and Johnny. I certainly want to get a lot more information about this timeline. I want to know what was talked about their relationship, specifically her and Johnny. So certainly a lot to get into. Katie Maloney is with us for Going Deeper on Thursday. Also on the Greg and Victoria episode, it comes out Wednesday,

but if we get it done in time, we might drop it on Tuesday. So look for it potentially sometime on Tuesday if we can get it up in time. And then yeah, Katie Maloney on Thursday for Going Deeper. Don't forget to send in those questions. Ask Nick at castme.com, cast the K. If you are stuck in a situationship and you can get the person you're in a situation ship with to call in let us know if you need help breaking up with someone

if you're not sure if you should get out of your relationship and you just need to figure it out we're here for you anything else we're missing Amanda

if you went on an atrocious date and you just want to tell the story let us know get it out there listen to you bad dating stories

or bad breakup stories any book couple updates, Allie? Yeah, I'm always updating with new cities. You can go to our Instagram. It's under the little story highlight. You can see the Facebook links. Also, you can just type it into Facebook, D-T-Y-E-H-B, book club, dash any of the cities,

or if you just want to see if there's one in your city. Always expanding, always adding. But Instagram's probably the best way to see the most updated ones. All right. Now that we covered all that, let's get into the love is blind most recent drama between Raven and SK. When it comes to choosing a wireless plan, you're forced to compromise. But what if you didn't have to? What if you could get reliable service without a contract and save money? Introducing Total by Verizon, a new no-contract, no-credit-check carrier for you and your family with plans

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they also offer fast overnight nationwide delivery. So right now, Milk Bar has a special limited time offer. Get $15 off any order of $80 or more when you go to milkbarstore.com slash V-I-A-L-L. You'll get 15 bucks off an order of $80 by going to milkbarstore.com slash V-I-A-L-L. That's milkbarstore.com slash V-I-A-L-L. That's milkbarstore.com. Some SK and Raven drama. So I was trying to take some pieces together and really figure out the exact timeline of everything that was happening in terms of we're going to get into it. A TikTok being posted with some allegations about SK cheating, Raven's initial response, then Raven and SK's actions taken on Instagram, ending up with their final breakup statement. So there's definitely some different components to the story.

But this all started when these cheating rumors came about. So this woman, Hannah, posted a TikTok saying that she and SK actually met in 2019 and became friends and started dating. They would go to weddings together. They would travel together. In 2021, he invited her to Europe for a trip, and she wanted to send herself some of the photos that they had taken on his phone and saw that he had some text messages from a contact that was named Fiance. She asked him about it. He said it was for a show and that they were doing it for money. And she said, well, if it's all fake and if it's just for money, I feel like I should meet Raven. And he agreed to that.

So she ended up following Raven on Instagram and liking a few of her photos because at this point she thought, you know, Raven and SK were just friends and just doing it for the show. Then Raven sent Hannah's Instagram profile to SK through DM and just said, who is this? And he told her, I told you I was going to handle it. So clearly this to who? To Raven. So Raven sent Hannah's profile to SK of who is this? She's now liking my photos, blah, blah, blah, blah. And all this information is coming from who? From Hannah, the woman who was dating SK. This is all coming from this Hannah person. Yes, yes. And then SK responded back to Raven saying,

I told you I was going to handle it. So clearly not the first time they had talked about Hannah. Hannah then invited SK to Cabo in May 2022. So this is, it's like a long-term relationship,

whether it's, you know, committed or not. What receipts do we have? So she posted in the TikTok, every time she would post a photo, she would include in the screenshot, like, you know how you can see the date on top in your photos album? So there was dates attached to all of the kind of Europe photos. She attached screenshots of him asking, have you seen my orange silk shirt? She then attached a photo and said, I took this photo of him. She then attached a photo of her in the same location.

Here's the orange shirt in question. So there was text messages of them going back and forth planning trips, accompanied by photos of them on these trips with locations and dates geotagged on them. She posted all these receipts? Yeah. Yeah. It's like the orange silk shirt, really. I never thought

that would be such a key piece of evidence in something like the number of times this shirt was photographed it's a game of clue you find the orange silk shirt in the library with the orange silk shirt with europe so i've talked to some people very close to the situation okay feet on the ground you know In these situations, obviously, with Bachelor Nation, we've dealt with stories like this in the past of exes coming forward. I generally receive that information very cautiously. I just think there's a lot of potential clout chasing in general in these situations. Now, that's not to say this Hannah person is lying. I don't know. I haven't even seen the receipts.

And I will say, as I heard the story from the kind of the peripheral, I thought to myself, what if this is a fake story? When I say a fake story, I mean, what if SK and Raven were just kind of faking this, right? Like we all know that Love is Blind, they film way in advance. I think the Love is Blind Chicago

and the Love is Blind Dallas were filmed rather close to each other. And then, you know, last year they aired Chicago. Now this year they're airing Dallas. And so all this time goes by while these people are kind of just sitting on their hands waiting for these stories to be told. And meanwhile, they kind of have to live their lives and so we watched sk and raven break up at the at the altar so to speak and it kind of it made sense to me it's like what's the most

simplest explanation is like as the show was approaching in terms of them dropping the episode raven and sk were like you know what let's just say we Raven and SK were like, you know what, let's just say we're together. And so we might get more attention, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, while it's being aired. I have been reassured by someone very, very, very close to the situation that I very much trust that at least the feelings are very real, that this is not some sort of fake relationship between Raven and SK. Certainly I would say, and this is less confirmed, but more my take reading between the lines,

certainly from Raven's point of view, and that this has been a very difficult situation for the people involved. And again, I'm just adding that I think it's certainly from Raven's point of view. Totally. Yeah, and now they broke up. And then they said something about legal proceedings. So wrapping up Hannah's video, she said she invited him to Cabo in May 2022. He booked flights that same day.

She attached a screenshot of their text, him sending his flight confirmation. In August, he came in to visit while in town. In September, he invited her to Miami, but it fell through because of a school event. So this was all up until like two months ago. And I saw someone has a statement from Raven. Raven said this. It said in November 2022. So within the last couple of weeks, Raven had responded to potential rumors about SK, which this would go with your point, Nick. She had said, I don't have anything to say about it. To summarize, rumors are rumors and we're fine. We're good. That's my man

and I'm sticking beside him again. This happened in November. I was struggling to find an exact date. So I don't know if this was before or after those like real receipts were posted. But at the time, she was willing to stand by him regardless of the rumors. But then after this TikTok came out, Raven started deleting all the photos of her and SK off of her Instagram. And then she actually posted a story with just three praying hand emojis on Saturday. I don't know if that was kind of a pray for me situation. It's a bit cryptic, but

yeah, I assume. Pray for me. That was on Saturday. Yeah. And then SK now has deleted all the photos of the two of them from Instagram and they sent out a breakup announcement that said, quote, we are saddened to announce that we have decided to go our separate ways. Due to ongoing legal proceedings surrounding these allegations, we cannot provide additional details and ask that you please respect our privacy during this hard time.

Thank you for following our love story and believing in us. This journey has forever shaped our lives, and we are so grateful for everyone who has been a part of it. Are they suing Hannah? I don't know. Here's what I think. I know because there's been a lot of speculation in terms of like every time stuff like this goes up or lawyers involved,

I know fans often like to be like, oh, the show is suing the cast for like breaking some sort of like part of their contract. That never happens. I mean, it rarely happens. Like, and it would, you would know if it was happening. I say this with confidence without

certainty but with confidence because this none of this has been confirmed um i think my read on this is that uh sk is telling a version to raven i've heard that they are well as of yesterday i heard that they were a united front and that she very much well not well i heard that they were united front that's what i heard so i want to make clear what i've heard and what i'm speculating uh i just heard that they were a united front that's i wasn't sure because i was just like are they and they were in my the answer was very much so is what i heard right i'm it's hurt. It's my opinion that SK has his truth and he's sharing that truth to Raven. And I'm assuming Raven wants to believe him. And it's my guess that SK is... When he says these legal proceedings, it has to do with these accusations and some sort of cease and desist

or things like that, which personally, if that's what's going on, I think is silly and a waste of time. And it sounds like a big deal, but ultimately it's going to end up being nothing. I don't think you can cease and desist someone from sharing pictures that they own or whether it's true or not, talking about their version or timelines of a relationship. But I'm guessing that SK is trying to take some sort of legal action against this Hannah person, whether actually or just saying that he's going to, I don't know. And there seems to be, it's all about the timeline, right? It's all about when did these conversations happen? When did they go on trips? Were Raven and SK together? Because they could easily, I don't think it was ever confirmed by Raven when she was on the show that her and SK

have been together this whole time. No. In fact, it sounds like they weren't. And so I guess the big question is, when did that happen? You know, and so and it sounds I'm getting the impression that at first it was like Raven's reaction. Again, this is a guess was, yeah, we weren't together. You were dating people. I was dating people, whatever. And it sounds like the more information that comes up, I wonder if it's getting harder and harder for her to believe.

I mean, the fact that they seem to have announced a breakup doesn't speak well to... It's like, hey, if you believe your person, then why aren't we letting these rumors break us apart? So I don't know. It's certainly interesting. I think SK was sloppy and it's catching up with them. And I think Raven's hoping that she can believe someone. My heart really goes, from what I hear, my heart really goes out to Raven.

Because regardless of what the truth is, From what I hear, my heart really goes out to Raven. Because regardless of what the truth is, I think she's on the receiving end of both unfair criticism and I think she just wants to be happy. And I think she really cares about SK from what I gather. And I think this is just a tough situation for her. And whether it's a tough situation for SK or he deserves it, or it's a tough situation for this Hannah person or she deserves it.

I mean, again, even if this... I just have a problem with this person who's making these TikToks and going viral and putting out more stuff and then going more viral. Isn't there a way to like, let the ravens of the world know without trying to get clout from it? I think that's the issue

I have in any of these situations where they're going to social, they're going to platforms and like, getting attention from it and then like,

sprinkling their truth with like, you know, OOTDs and like, skincare routines and things like that. It's just like, I don't know.

That doesn't mean it's not true. It just means- The motives are not pure. It reads disingenuous. So I guess I just have less sympathy for this Hannah person. I don't know how I should feel towards SK. What I'm confident in saying is that I think we should be empathetic to Raven and not judgmental to Raven

for wanting to believe in the person that she loves. I also think part of this has to do with the way she was framed on the show of like, like when we talked to her on the podcast and she was like, I'm warm. And like the stuff they were showing was like the two minutes of me being negative all day. Like, I think there's this perception that she's this like stunning pilates girl who's like above all criticism and kind of like cold and not as emotional and like i think people are really dehumanizing her and viewing her as this like reality tv character instead of like a real human woman who is like dealing with ups like allegations that would be so upsetting and confusing regardless of what's true and what's not it's so difficult to have your life put under a microscope like that and she is not the few minutes of footage that you

saw of her on netflix totally and then like you know that that narrative of kind of that cold also like cold calculated so like oh she they they they knew what they were doing the whole time this is all fake they're doing it for attention. Again, I trusted people telling me that it's not for attention, that the relationship itself was certainly very real. Winter is upon us. And in the winter, nobody wants to feel dry. Nobody wants to feel crusty. And I love my Osea products year round. But let me tell you, I have been leaning on the body oil. As the air is getting dry. There is nothing more luxurious, nothing more nourishing. It is vegan, cruelty

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You'll even get free samples with every order. Ooh, free samples. Love free samples. And orders over $50 get free shipping. That's 10% off Osea, that's O-S-E-A-ibu.com. Promo code V-I-A-L-L. I'm sorry. I think you lose credibility when you go about it in the way that this Hannah person's doing. And she very much... She could be telling the truth. I don't know. But it's... She's also... She's trying to benefit benefit from she's trying to personally benefit from what she is claiming is misfortune.

You know, and I think there's a way to get her truth out to the people like, you know, Raven, if that's the case, because like no one knew she existed before. Does the world need to know? But if her story is true, that moment happened where raven sent her profile to sk and sk said i told you i was going to handle it that points to the fact that raven already knew something was going on but we hear that from hannah how do we know that happened we don't it's all speculation i'm just saying if that so we don't know that's that's if i don't have a receipt for it i i don't, it's hard for me to believe. But also that's like kind of a weird thing for, if Raven were to do that, like why she

doesn't have other random women following her and liking her posts? Like why did this one Hannah be like, who is this? Why would she just randomly notice this Hannah person? Yeah. I wonder if it was, I don't know if it was like a mutual, like if SK would have followed her, if he, or if that would have been him like giving himself away. Like there's a lot of follow up questions here. Yeah, it doesn't.

Doesn't really line up. Doesn't totally line up. I just think we need to be careful about throwing Raven under the bus. That I feel confident in saying. But it also kind of seemed like from the communication of Hannah and SK that they were in Europe together and then he was like oh do you want me to like fly you out to Miami like it seemed like if they were in a relationship it was in one that was not super like they weren't necessarily living together like it seemed much more like oh we're meeting up and we're traveling which I think is

more conducive to some kind of like secretive affair situation than if she's like posting receipts of like them at dinner on a Tuesday. So I don't know if that comp like kind of adds to some of where the muddledness might come in or like the feasibility of this. My understanding that the SK's defense is that this relationship happened, but the dates and the timing are fabricated. How they're fabricated, because Allie, you're saying there's some very damning receipts with some timestamps there. I'm not the type of person who can fake that, but it's not that hard to fake these days. And I'm not saying she is faking it. I don't know.

It's time for an advertisement from Canva Pro. But yeah, I mean, Canva Pro's not that hard you know you can you can remove background pretty easily yeah so who knows but uh certainly a a fascinating story to continue to to track and um hopefully we can get raven back on or even sk and and uh and see when these legal whatever these legal things they're speaking of are finalized. My guess is they'll be finalized by who, I think my read on it is SK is trying to claim to take some sort of legal action and it's going to go nowhere. But you know, I might just start saying legal proceedings whenever I don't want to talk about

something because it's like, you don't know if something could go to trial and be like, yeah, I'm not speaking about that start saying legal proceedings whenever i don't want to talk about something because it's like you don't know something could go to trial be like yeah i'm not speaking about that until the legal proceedings are done so vague proceedings are just so yeah piling up i can't speak on this i don't know so we will we will see all right moving on ally what we got for uh bachelor t before we get to the finale yes Yes. Kate, I mean, I know this will go with what we were going to talk about on the finale. Kate is really doubling down on the kind of bashing of Logan in terms of... Yeah.

I mean, there's been a lot of comments between the two of them. As we saw on the reunion, Logan was able to address that and talk about his side and how those comments made him feel about her critiquing his car and his lifestyle and what he can and can't afford so she actually posted a story uh on instagram with the the location was in cabo and she just captioned it a costco card and some

extra guac ain't getting you here which i believe in response to his tiktok video where he was like i have yeah the month i I have whatever he said. He was posing in front of his car and he was like, when your TV girlfriend calls you broke or something, and he had Monopoly cash and a Costco card and extra guac. Yeah, for sure.

But she... I guess I... As we always like to say, the show is edited, so we like to hold back from making character judgments on these people from an edited TV show. But, like, here's my take on Kate. Either she's auditioning for trying to be on some other reality TV show or shows, whether it's Selling Sunset sunset or but she's clearly or or she's a not a good person right like it's like she's said too much that you can't simply just blame on editing or the fact that like things haven't been shown i mean responding to what specifically is

shown and what is specifically coming out of her mouth, not like some voiceovers or ITMs. She's clearly saying this. Why is she saying this? I don't know. But she seems to have no problem coming across as incredibly superficial and condescending and belittling and, and just not a kind, empathetic person. I don't know. Like, is she just like, is it just like, I want to be on TV and I, and like, she's just decided to play like the WWE villain. And she just, you know, like some people at this point in reality TV, I think what's her name? The, the doctor. Kira. Romeo. I think per their socials, and good for them. They're just like, it seems like they have taken the approach that they don't take this show seriously. It's TV.

They recognize that it's edited. And they're just like, I played a character. Like, they've essentially have come out and acknowledged that, you know? And is Kate doing the same thing? I don't know. I also thought her, like, I'm sure we'll get into this more, but like in when she kind of tried to play it off as like, oh, this was girl talk. Like this is me just like being sassy with the girls.

Like that reminded me so much of when men will say atrocious, horrific, disgusting, degrading shit and be like, it was locker room talk. Like it goes both ways. Like you can't be like emasculating and demeaning and like, like, like really perpetuating and upholding this like, super toxic masculinity. Like, that's what a lot of this

is rooted in. It's like, he's a man, he should make money, he should provide for me. Like, you're shaming Logan in these ways that are like,

really intense and deep. And yeah, it's like also this like, casual social level, but like, you can't just like, write it off and be like, I was talking with the girls

when like, that, no, like, there's more to it. You weren't supposed to hear it. It wasn't supposed to to get back I didn't say it to your face I just said on national television yeah yeah and when she like she you know I guess we'll just get into the best part but when she was like on the tell all or whatever the reunion and oh no when she

broke up when she broke up with Logan and she's like I realize you're projecting does she know what projecting means like what is like what exactly was he projecting he wasn't projecting that he wants a rich person to support him like what does this mean like he wasn't complaining about her at all like his criticism to her was you i'm i couldn't be more happy with you. I like everything about you, which that was confusing to me, but nevertheless, that's what he said. And, and she constantly complained about him and belittled him and like made him feel small. And then she like use, like use this, the big word, like, oh, well, I just realized you're projecting. Well, he would have to have been complaining about her either to the cameras or to his friends and then accusing her of that very thing.

She doesn't make any sense. But then also, she actually lost credibility in a weird way when she apologized to Logan at the reunion when she was like, it was so out of pocket. Because to me, that says that it's not like some sort of plan, that she's not just trying to get on TV. Otherwise, why apologize? You might as well just double down at this point and just say, hey, listen, I'm not going to apologize for having standards and I'm not going to apologize for having expectations. Yeah, but if she's posting on her social media still- That's what I'm saying.

So like why, she actually looked worse by like for a moment trying to apologize. Yeah. Because that to me sounds like she either A, isn't smart enough or B, doesn't actually give a shit. She was just in that moment, thought it was the right thing to say. And now she's just saying what she really

believes i mean she had rehearsed that breakup absolutely for hours and hours and hours she also has the energy to deliver those lines i know it made no sense she also has the energy of those girls who over insert themselves in any drama even if they're not close to someone if they see someone going through something or if they're if they're sad or whatever she acts let me into the bathroom where people are crying let me in there but acts like they're best friends and i'm like kate i don't know if you truly are best friends with any of these people that's her vibe yeah and she's mean like that was mean like to she was mean on clayton season she was a mean season. She was a mean girl then. She was a mean girl when she came on Paradise. Yeah.

She has not had one stint of being nice or caring or anything. We all have our moments. Right. She has just been nasty the entire TV stint she's had. So Kate, if you're listening, if there's a good person in there, let us know or maybe you're just i don't know but like if you feel like you ended down a path you don't want to be on yeah i don't i don't know but like also like because the trying to get on sunset just doesn't like first of all like bachelor nation like owns her for a period of time so why would they like why would they want her on their show only to like have her go on like they're not in the business of

like hyping up or promoting other people that some other network or platform is going to reap the benefits so like you know eventually kate will be out of contract. Will selling Sunset care at that point? I don't know. And it's like, just being mean isn't that... If she's trying to be, what's her name? Christine. Christina. Christina had a lot more than just being mean

or saying off-putting things. She at least had some pizzazz or style or some flair to it. Like Kate doesn't have any Christine Quinn in her. Like anyone can say mean things. If you're going to like be that character, you have to, you have to do it with style. And like, I'm sorry, but like Kate just doesn't seem to have that. And I don't know if that's like, that's the best excuse I can make for her that she thinks she's auditioning to replace Christine Quinn on Selling Sunset.

Logan actually, he's just been taking the high road in all of this stuff. So he actually made his own Instagram story. It was a screenshot of the Costco travel website, because you can get good deals with Costco travel. And he pulled up Cabo and literally just captioned it, on my way, baby. on my way, baby. I feel like Logan's caught a lot of heat in his two seasons. He seems to be a person that Bachelor Nation, at least on Twitter, likes to snark at. I've seen memes like, only Kate can make me root for Logan. And I've never met Logan. I've heard good things about Logan. At the end of the day, I would be surprised if he's just not a solid stand-up high character guy. He may have some maturing to do. He people and is willing to apologize and but also stand up for himself and like i don't know like i'm just i would be surprised if i get to meet logan and not like what i see i know someone who dm'd him because they found him very cute and he responded

within 10 minutes and was super nice yeah what a gem i don't i don. He's going to get a lot of DMs after that goes out. Sorry. Everyone's going to be like, okay, on my way. Although Logan, just grow it back, man. Grow back the facial hair. He looked super hot on the last tell-all. This reunion, I don't like. Why did Logan dress like a villain for this tell-all? It was the turtleneck. Yes, that's what we're going on.

He shaved his face, had the turtleneck yes that's what he shaved his face had the turtleneck parted the hair it was it looked like he was trying to dress like a villain actually can we just pause for a second ali what welcome to bachelor nation yeah you are all over this episode you were you were all over the episode she was giving face you got you got more screen time than Justin, Sierra. Andrew. Andrew. Truly. Hey. Yay.

I mean, well done. Welcome to the fam. Thank you. Happy to be here. Amanda is just, Amanda's the only normie. Yeah, thank God. You need someone holding down the fort. A plebe.

A star was born. Oh my gosh. Nick rewinded to see you the first time he's like oh there's out and then you're on like 30 more times i fangirled out i was like screenshot and then i was like this episode's gonna be available let's be honest it was not a johnny and victoria breakup it was a johnny victoria and ally breakup i was sitting in the middle i was there for it all you were in you were there yeah it was a little blurry, but I was there. You had some reaction looks. You did have some reaction looks. Alright, Sierra T.

Well, so basically, Danielle has been doing a little pressy press, was talking about Bachelor in Paradise, her and Michael. Obviously, we know they're still together, very, very happy. She had actually been saying that she came out of Bachelor retirement because producers called her specifically because Michael had mentioned her specifically. So they had said, Michael's interested in you. Michael has requested you. Would you consider coming down to the beach? And that's why she went, which made me then kind of question the moment we saw this week when she was telling Michael, I could have never expected you. And maybe she meant she couldn't have expected that deep of a connection so

quickly. But if she came out of retirement specifically for Michael and she's saying things like, I would have never known, I would have never expected you. I mean, I can say that about Nick though. So I relate to that. We're like, because of course, like we knew we DM'd, we knew each other, we met and I would have never expected that we would be where we are today. You know?

Like, so I can, I can relate. I know it's a different story for sure, but I can understand where she's saying, I would have never expected us to like fall so in love. I'm moving to Akron.

I've met your son. Like, we have such a great relationship. So I can agree. But didn't she, doesn't, if she's claiming that the producers told her that Michael requested her. I'm just here to say I heard something different.

Oh, but what did you hear? Pray tell. Good, sir. I just heard something different. Can't be that ominous. I can say that I feel confident saying that both Michael and Danielle were aware that they would both be in paradise. That much I can confirm. And I'm only going to confirm that now because it sounds like Danielle confirmed that. kind of, didn't she kind of out herself or more actually more specifically, didn't she just out Michael as it relates to Sierra and how that whole situation was handled? Totally. And it makes me wonder too, if Michael was that interested in her to the point where,

you know, if what she's saying is true, if he specifically requested her or at least mentioned, and maybe he mentioned other people too, he could, that she could have been on a short list, but they clearly had a relationship before they were already DMing about their common mutual experiences. She had reached out to him in support. Why wouldn't they have just tried to date in the real world? Why did they have to go to the beach? Is it just like a fun paycheck? I mean, are you asking why any of these people wanted to go on TV? Yeah, but they just, they strike me as a little different than the average couple there. Listen, I love Michael. I think he's a great guy. I consider him a friend. I think he's a wonderful human, but he's also like any of us. I would say

Michael maybe made the mistake of trying too hard to act like he was above all this, above liking the attention of the Instagram followers, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I don't think he's... I like attention. I like Instagram followers. You know what I'm saying? I think we are too hard on the people for wanting to reap the benefits that come with the show, because certainly there's a lot of negatives that come from being on the show when it comes to criticism and things like that. But yeah, I mean, they're just like everyone else. And so, and I guess what I'm saying, I'm just surprised.

I'm surprised that Danielle outed Michael like that, but they certainly got the benefit of the edit on the finale. I mean, who do you think is the most upset person after watching the finale for what wasn't shown? Because I would say Ciara is piping hot, is my guess. Everything was so short. I mean, she did not wear that dress.

And she looked wonderful, by the way. Stunning. Catwoman. She came to throw down. And that was like a murder dress, you know, like and both like and it had a lot of different meanings and it got pared down to at the end of the day. I'm just happy for you both. Yeah, she came dressed like vigilante shit. And then I do think she said it was definitely shady though because she was like, I do just like hope that you find a person

that makes you happy. It's like, well, he's sitting beside his person. So like you could have acknowledged Danielle. That was a little shady, but. Sure. It definitely wasn't as worse. I, again, I love Michael, but if I'm Sierra, I can understand. If you're a Sierra after watching this whole season unfold, and then you go to the tell-all and you're like, you know what? Finally,

I'll get my chance to at least defend myself and at least speak up for myself. At least say, hey, I didn't appreciate how it all went down. At the end of the day, no hard feelings, but like, it sure felt like I was just a convenient person to hang out with while the person you really wanted to date also confirmed by this person that like he asked for you. And yeah, I would be upset that all the end of the day and then, and then it's aired and then everything, I mean, keep this, they, they filmed for 13 hours, this tell-all. And obviously, as we all know, things are edited. They had 90 minutes of content and they filmed for 13 hours. So it was kind of crazy because I've heard from all the people who were there, all the things that were talked about, all the things that were said. I've heard it from both sides, people who are on the receiving end of criticism,

people who are giving the criticism, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm here to say, boy, they cut out a lot of good stuff. It sure seems like they really watered it down. And at the end of the day, I think Michael and Danielle got the benefit. Their relationship was clearly prioritized by the show. And if I'm Sierra, I would be I would feel very used by everyone. I think Sierra has the right to be very upset. And that's not to say I think Michael and Danielle are like really, you know, they weren't the only ones who played a role in that, you know, but all I'm saying is I think Sierra has a right to be frustrated.

Totally. And I think people, there is still such a big like team Sierra presence of everyone who's watched this season and has remained kind of on her side of things to say. So after Danielle had that interview talking about her and Michael, a lot of people had sent it to Sierra. They were saying not to give Danielle the time of day. I guess at some point Danielle blanked on Sierra's name and said, what's her face instead of Sierra? People thought she was invalidating Sierra's feelings. So it's definitely it was kind of a polarizing thing of, you know, are you team Michael and Danielle? Are you team Sierra?

I guess I could say I'm team both. I mean, like I'm team Michael because he's a friend and Danielle, you know, obviously she was on my season. Very nice. I have nothing bad to say about her. And if they're happy, I'm certainly happy for them. But I also very much feel for Sierra who, especially after watching the reunion and knowing that she had a lot to say and none of it was aired um seemingly because they wanted to focus on the i love you and they wanted the michael and danielle to be nothing but positive and and sierra from what everything i heard had a lot to say about how she felt she was treated uh on the beach uh yeah i mean i would feel very used like she was simply just a placeholder to propel Michael A's love story forward. And it's a TV show. They're there to- Don't they all do that?

What do you mean? Pretty much. Sure, yeah. Listen, it goes both ways. I recognize it's a TV show and I recognize these people all sign up for this and they have no problem reaping the benefits when they're on the receiving

end of benefits. And very few people will acknowledge that. But knowing what I know, all I'm saying is I have empathy for Sierra. And if I were her, I can understand why she feels slighted by this experience. And I think she has a right to. to so question what do people expect when this situation happens and you know michael knew danielle was coming danielle knew whatever he didn't know when do they expect when michael goes down to the beach and he does not see the person he quote-unquote requested do they expect him to leave or to wait for her they expect him to figure it out and do what he did. And then they get mad when he figures it. Bachelor Nation, the audience, the people.

Well, it's, yeah, but they're. I mean, like. Well, all you're saying is that the audience expects him to do this. Yeah. I mean, I guess the audience expects people like Michael. You know, think about Michael. He is someone who has been portrayed as and certainly wants to be thought of as a very high character person. And for the Michael A that I know,

he very much is that person. But if you want to be known as a super high character person, again, with great power comes great responsibility. You are going to be under a microscope for your decisions. And if I wanted to critique my friend, how he could have handled that, he could have not entered. If he truly knew if what Danielle was saying is true, that he requested Danielle, right? Now, Michael might say, well, I didn't know she was coming. These people all know who's coming. Like, I'm sorry. I just putting it out there. Everyone certainly has a thought. He could have simply said, again, I don't know what was said behind closed doors. When I was on Paradise and I went for Jen, and when I showed up on the beach, I went on some dates, and certainly this wasn't aired, but every time I went on a date, I was like, just so you know, if Jen comes down, I'm going to ask her on the date and I'm going to ask her out.

So if you want to go on a date with me, I'll be open to it. Exchange roses and tell my person you're here. I was very upfront with her. And maybe Michael said that to Sierra. I don't know. But it certainly wasn't aired and it's never been said to anyone. No, it wasn't aired. But I said that.

So we don't know. but I was very upfront. So I guess I'd want to know, was Michael as upfront to Sierra as I was, say, to Amanda Stafford and to Leah? I think I went on a date with her. Everyone knew I was waiting for Jen. for Jen. And I'm curious if everyone on the beach knew that Michael was waiting for Danielle per Michael's mouth, not because it was just like some unspoken thing. I was telling anyone who asked, I was like, waiting for Jen. I don't care. Send me home. I was daring the producers to send me home before they brought Jen down. I just wasn't going to lead anyone on. That was my choice I made for myself. And if that meant I was going to go home, then so be it. All I'm saying is I think Sierra

has a right to be frustrated from what we know per Danielle talking and doing interviews and what we've seen on the show and for what we haven't seen on the show. Correct. All right. Should we dive into the episodes? The show up with uh wells is like recap which you know throw wells a bone my my biggest takeaway from that whole recap was i forgot that justin and genevieve dated how how did you possibly forget that because like so many things have happened i mean but how many people that justin justin date on the beach pretty much just genevieve i thought and then he came well when he came back I remembered it because when he came back for Eliza Genevieve had some so many comments about Rodney don't worry about this he's such a bad person also can we just speak to like how Jesse anytime something sad happens

I love how Jesse Palmer just comes out and just like well that sucked anyways moving on like for every like emotional moment he's like wow that was really hard anyways um moving on like when when mara laughed he's like yeah that was like really hard for mara anyways all right well um it's like no mara just had literally nobody to talk that was not that hard for her she was like yeah she just gotta go the most obvious situation in the world it's literally just her not a single other person who is single they place her in the middle of them too she is dead center in that group on the couch just staring around at everyone else i was like this poor girl yeah i do love how they after their recap, it must have been before the rose ceremony, but everyone's kind of talking about getting engaged and whatnot.

And Aaron and Johnny are laying in their bunk beds and Aaron's talking to Johnny and he's like, yeah, man, you know, like if you want to get engaged, do it. And if not, don't. Like groundbreaking. Big facts, Aaron. Thank you so much for your insight. Big facts. Go to Erin for your advice. Bachelor in Paris needs to do something about how they wind things down. Because they spent 45 minutes wasting our time, like, having these people, like, first, you know, so after Mara leaves, it's like, all right, well, everything's, you know the everything's about to change things are getting serious like there's no cocktail party you like

you should have talked about your future so decide now whether you're ready for a future forever and then like everyone gets a rose except for like logan and kate and she does the thing and and he was you could tell he was like so completely and utterly shocked. Yeah. His jaw was dropped the entire time. He's like hugging everyone by. Yeah. They have a rose ceremony and everyone gets a rose literally the next morning. And you knew it was coming. Jesse's like, well, again, we didn't want you to talk about it last night at a cocktail

party. We needed to cancel that because the expectation was you should have figured it out. But now we need you to talk again. Now we need you to have another conversation that we didn't allow you to have yesterday about whether you are, in fact, really serious. And then they do the whole rigmarole thing again and have these conversations. Apparently, Sinead had a whole different point of view from the night before about whether she was capable of having a serious relationship with one of the twins. about whether she was capable of having a serious relationship with one of the twins. And it's just like, they need to do something

to bridge that gap between having all these couples and then wanting to basically narrow it down to their final two. Like, I'm not a producer. I'm not here to figure out something. But they need to figure out something because that was 45 minutes of nothing. Well, and like you said said we had so much footage from the freaking reunion yeah why don't they just give us more of that i i believe i mean correct i don't i said correct me if i'm wrong like any of you can

correct me if i'm wrong but from my interpretation when we filmed the reunion it was to be put into two evenings the way they structured the day it felt like it was two different things and then suddenly i was expecting there to be reunion footage on monday night's like cut in yeah on monday night yeah i did too but and we wasted so much time with wells's recap which i'm like okay well no one's gonna be watching the reunion if they haven't watched anything of the season prior. Well, that's not necessarily true. They actually literally do what they did with Wells in case, like,

I mean, the finale's always have the highest ratings. So, you know, clearly people are watching the finale that haven't watched the entire season. Or maybe they watched, you know, episode one and then popped back in at episode four and came back for a one more you know what i'm saying it's something more like that so part of the reason they do that is to bring everyone up to speed but i agree with you like as much as i love my boy wells getting his moment and that was nice of them to do that was a really long recap and there was a lot more like good stuff they could have shown. And then again,

we watched 45 minutes of, of people like of them narrowing it down to the couples. We, we knew they were going to narrow it down to, you know, and it was just like, so who, who broke up that next day?

Who left? So obviously Brittany and Tyler left his couples, Michael and Danielle and, and Sinead and what's the... Not Justin, the other one. Joey. Joey. I mean, I feel like she did not mean to be mean.

I just think she did not know how. She put her foot in it by mistake. Yeah. It was like weird because she kept saying, I'm not trying to be mean. And then would say some really mean shit. You're not a man. But at the same time,

I truly believe Sinead that she just couldn't find the words and that she sincerely didn't, like to Natalie's point, that she didn't want to be mean, but she didn't know how to articulate. Listen, man, we're not going to date. You do TikTok dances. There's not much else I can say.

Has Sinead ever posted a TikTokiktok do we know can we look has joey posted one since or did he feel so judged that he has not posted a tiktok since that combo because like a lot of people who go on bachelor in paradise are posting tiktok so like shanae shana like, I mean, good for her. She doesn't want that in her life, but. I only see eight TikToks that Sinead's ever posted. One of them is with a giant shrimp. I mean, eight. The shrimp was from Clayton season when she made all the shrimp and no one ate it. I'm just saying she did talk like it was a really bad thing to post TikToks. I think she was saying that he dances in his TikToks

and that is giving childish vibes. And she was just, I think that's kind of what she was alluding to. But she definitely did not say it in the nicest way possible. But I don't think she was trying to be mean. Because her point is valid. I've never seen someone so mean,

but so like- So not trying to be, you know? So not trying to be, you know. So not trying to be mean. I, you know, I felt for Sinead so hard at the women tell all. I think she got. Last year. Last year. Yeah. I think she got so bullied and people were so mean to her and she handled herself so

well. I DM'd her after that. And I just, you know, said that I was rooting for her happiness and that, you know, I'm sorry that everyone was so mean because I hate situations like that. And she responded so kind. And I think she's just misunderstood. And I root for her. And I'm a big Sinead fan. I know she's a little kooky, but- She's not without criticism. And I think, yeah, she might get- She has her flaws.

She might have a hard time articulating certain emotions in certain situations. And these are high pressured situations. But yeah, I don't. She's not an evil or bad person. And I think there's a lot more good in her. It was comedic gold, though, the twins final scene on the beach, because Joey is so taken aback by breaking up with Sinead. And he goes, and what makes it even worse is seeing Justin so in love and Justin having this great relationship. Cue to Justin and Flo. I don't think we should do this afterwards.

Nope. Me neither. Okay, bye. Let's leave it at the beach. Perfect. Then they get in the car. They are hyping each other up. And then Joey goes,

she said I wasn't a man. She said I wasn't a man. And Justin goes, you're more of a man than she ever will be. I know. I got him. Big facts.

Aaron and Genevieve fight like 16 year olds. I mean it's just like her leaving and coming back and they went through the whole thing again and he's like this time you can go up there and pack

your bags and I won't stop you. And she's like I this time you can go up there and pack your bags and I won't stop you. And she's like, I don't want you to. It's like, okay, well. I thought at first that Aaron, like I'm a big believer as we know on the show that listen, like breakups suck and you have a right to have your feelings change. You have a right to leave a relationship. And if that is the case, the other person's feelings are going to get hurt and they're going to be upset. And you have to allow yourself to be a bad guy to them. And I thought Aaron honestly did a pretty good job up into the point where when Genevieve came back down and clearly there was some miscommunication, right? And Genevieve is like, you're literally like, you're saying it's all my fault. And in that moment,

I understood Aaron's point of view. I was like, he's not saying that. He was just articulating his frustrations with you and you chose to literally say nothing, which I was fine with. Like, don't say anything, Genevieve. You know what? Don't give Aaron the satisfaction of a conversation he wants out. Just let him speak and do your thing. Fine. But then Genevieve decided to come back, which again, she has the right to do. But Aaron was doing a perfect job and to the point where Genevieve... I don't know who said it first, but it was like, Genevieve's like, clearly you don't know what I'm saying. And then Aaron was like, well, basically it was like, Genevieve's like, clearly you don't know what I'm saying. And then Aaron was like, well, I basically, Aaron was like, Aaron should have said,

no, it was like, Genevieve was basically saying, you don't understand. Oh, I, Genevieve goes, I don't understand what you're saying. You know, like, like it's just like, you talk, I don't get it. And then Aaron should have said, I don't understand what you're saying, but Aaron tried to make it seem like, no, no, you don't understand what I'm saying, but I understand what you're saying. And then actually Aaron proved Genevieve's point where it sure sounded like Aaron was trying to make it more Genevieve's fault than it was Aaron's fault. But that all being said, it was an A plus apology at the finale. I do think we need to talk about the single strand of hair that was miscalmed.

That was driving me bonkers. I was about to lose it. And also the highlights. I've never seen one like that. It was a highlighted one too. Yeah, it was a single highlighted strand. And you know Genevieve saw it

and she was like, I'm leaving that fucking hair there. She was like, not my fucking job anymore. I will not help you. Yeah. As a girlfriend, like, I'm leaving. She was like, not my fucking job anymore. I will not help you. Yeah. As a girlfriend, you're on your own fucker. She went 100% did that.

And I kind of love it. But that all being said, I got to give them both credit. It was at the tell all reunion, whatever you want to freaking call it. It was a really solid apology. And in terms of holding yourself accountable, I give Aaron and Genevieve a lot of credit.

They really just focused on what they did wrong, and good for them. Listen, they're goofy people. Aaron's annoyed the shit out of me for three seasons now. He seems like a swell guy who probably has some growing up to do. And maybe at some point, point Aaron if you're out there

Allie's still very much wants to have sex with you hello I am here I don't get it you know does it make sense to me I think you're unfuckable you are her Mount Rushmore

who else is on your Mount Rushmore besides Aaron Allie oh your Mount Rushmore besides Erin, Allie? Oh, yeah. Ryan Seacrest. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's boys with highlights, Allie, is what we're discovering. The thing is with Ryan Seacrest, it's not about sex.

Like, I truly believe Ryan Seacrest and I would be, like, the ideal power couple. I've watched his day in the life routines. I would fit in very well with them. I think we would be, like, great. Just, like, power couple energy. You want to be head of the household together yes absolutely i want a partner and that's what ryan secrets is gonna give me i'll let you know currently we've chiseled out two we're leaving two spots open i'll let you know okay if you want to fill those spots slide in all right let's uh i feel like we have two main well obviously we're

saving the Victoria and Johnny uh and Greg uh for last we got the Tyler and uh Brittany relationship oh

which it's yeah first they're I do sweet then they're sour it was like a reverse sour patch situation

first I was like why do we care and then it was like oh okay I guess Patch situation. First, I was like, why do we care? And then it was like, oh, okay, I guess. And then... I mean, I love how they obviously left Paradise together. And then Jesse is like... Well, hold on. They had their Paradise on the daybed couch conversation.

And they exchanged I love you's for the first time, seemingly. And they sealed it with like a grandma kiss. Yeah, they did. They just went, let's go to Chicago. Let's go to Chicago.

And they just like a little, like, I've had better kisses from Phyllis. That's all I'm saying. That doesn't surprise me about Phyllis, honestly. Nothing inappropriate from Phyllis, but they definitely, that was not like, you don't say I love you for the first time and talk about a future and give a. A peck.

A peck. Yeah. I feel like Brittany never really liked Tyler. Oh. I don't believe that. I think that Brittany thought he was very hot and that he was a very good man. But I think he maybe didn't have the kind of like swag like that. Like I think there's maybe a certain thing that was slightly missing that she knew all along. And it was totally not a big deal when all of the other things were going so well.

But I think there's maybe this like like the way that when he was break when Rachel wanted to break up with him and he's just going on about how he like loves her loves her like I feel like sometimes maybe he doesn't quite read the room precisely yeah he's he has no swag I think that's he's a sweetheart and he's not trying to bet that he's a nice guy with absolutely zero game and no swag and he's a very handsome man is my guess. I could be wrong. I've never met him. I haven't met him,

but he's, he's, he seems to be like with that face, he shouldn't, he shouldn't be repelling women this quickly. Oh yeah. And it's, oh,

and we should get into like when the thing that Brittany gave us, the example was he was, when they were supposed to have space for one another, he was Snapchatting her. Then he was DMing her. then he was dming her then he was texting her and I was like okay the fact that he uses snapchat yes tells me all I need to know about Tyler and I'm not interested in fairness of Tyler though or I think kind of piggybacking off like if you're comparing there's there were some well the differences but there are some similarities between uh tyler and um britney and johnny and victoria which obviously you know specifically this is the breakup and we'll get into johnny victoria but like i think where britney fell short is she didn't give any reason as to why it ended other than

like a very vague like i thought we were very different people. Which listen, if you mean on Paradise, they clearly didn't have much of a relationship on the beach. I guess you don't need much of an excuse in life, but I think she would have did herself more of a service if she could give at least one or two reasons about why she didn't think they were compatible. And you know what I'm saying? And that doesn't mean she still has a right to leave the relationship, but it just, it leaves the room

open for me to think that she never really liked him in the first place. Or maybe to your point, maybe she like, maybe she just didn't want to, maybe she didn't want to be mean. Maybe she was like, listen, honestly, we got to Chicago and you're just kind of fucking weird, you know, and maybe she didn't want to say that, you know, because maybe that's how she felt. I'm going to go to Italy and London. Yeah. Bye. It was kind of a savage move. Catch flights, not feelings.

Yeah, she went to Europe and like, text me, we're broken up. Yeah. yeah what was the whole and ali maybe obviously you heard more of this you can clear this up but what was the whole my mother dm'd you on instagram or something that britney said to him yeah i wrote that down too of saying like that was the only reason he reached out because of her mom sending him something on instagram i mean they they met each other's families like really quickly after they left Paradise. Like all was doing well, but I don't know like what was sent. What did Brittany's mom DM Tyler?

And why is Brittany's mom DMing Tyler? It always shocks me how involved some parents can be in certain relationships. And I'm like, wow, that is bold. And also in the DMs, like that's an email. That is not a DM. Oh, we forgot to talk about Rodney, Eliza, and Justin. Justin, they might as well just had a cardboard cutout of him

because they edited him completely out of the show. He had some good faces. I'll say that. Ali's like game knows game. Or do you want to say it? There's like game, knows game. Well, or do you want to say it? There's just a lot more. There's just so much more to this story.

Yeah. And I. So much more to this story that they just didn't air. Yeah. And I know like everything that Nick said on the last podcast episode about Justin and Eliza, that whole situation. Justin and Eliza, that whole situation, I 157% disagree with that. She disagrees with me.

Yeah. I disagree with him. I think that he was valid in feeling like a second option. I don't give a rat's ass that she flew to wherever. I don't, yeah, I don't think. Baltimore. I don't, yeah, I don't think. Baltimore. I don't care. She chose someone else on, like he was embarrassed. He went home and like, sure, she felt regret the next morning and like flew to him and

apologized. But like, I 100% respect his decision to be like, listen, I felt like a second option and I didn't like that feeling. And I know you obviously would, I felt like a second option and I didn't like that feeling. And I know you obviously would want to feel like a first option as well. Thank you for flying here. I really appreciate it. And I do think that conversation went on for a lot longer than we saw on last week's episode. But I think it ended very much not how they aired with her just being like, I think she said, I'm going to go take a break. And she walked outside. think it was accurate that when he began this conversation with her, he just kind of shut her down. And listen, all I'm thinking is that all I'm saying is I don't think it was effective

communication for someone that, for someone who actually wanted to see where that relationship went. Right. Because in reality, and we know this because Justin's a friend and a couple months ago, we were having, we went to Din Tai Fung, and it was me, Natalie, and Justin. Was Greg there? Yeah. And Justin was currently going through it. He was upset.

He was frustrated, and we were like, what's going on? It was just like girl talk. He was just talking to his friends. He basically came to L.A. Him and Greg came to L.A. for Liza, and he was like, Hey, I'm gonna be in LA. Like, I would love to see you. We've been talking about hanging out and seeing each other. So like, I'm here would love to hang out. We're at dinner. And he's like, I don't know if I'm gonna order because it's five o'clock. And he's like, I'm gonna go to Eliza's house. So like, I'm not gonna,

I'm not gonna order because I'm just gonna leave here in a little house. So like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to order because I'm just going to leave here in a little bit. So like, I feel for him because I get that he, you know, how he felt in the beginning when she flew there. And then they talked for three hours. And then he was like, you know what? Like, we live on opposite sides of the country. Like, let's just see how this goes.

Like, I'm not going to say, I'm not going to put a label on it. We're not going to say we're dating or anything like that. But let's just see what happens if i'm in la let's hang out let's facetime let's text like whatever yeah but i after seeing the episode i know we didn't get a lot to see i just i was a little frustrated to see justin shut her down so much but there clearly is way more to the story and yeah i mean and then eliza on the episode all of a sudden what is this like feelings for rodney wanting to get back together with rodney at the end of the day i think these are three like i mean i i've never met eliza we've we know justin and rodney great guys eliza seems like a wonderful person i think she's just a really bad fuck boy

i mean and being like i think she's bad at being a fuck boy. You know what I'm saying? Totally. Cause she doesn't, it's like she's indecisive, which is I think the issue. Like, it's not like it's malicious,

but it is absolutely dragging everybody else around as she goes back and forth from either one. And she's not good at communicating. And she's, you know, she's, she, she's putting her needs and what she wants above everyone else not maliciously but yeah it's a little fuck boy-esque but like but not with not with cruel intentions

it's just a little like if fuck boys are snipers she's just like firing randomly you know yeah there there just definitely is a lot more of the story. Because at the end of the day, if I'm piecemealing all the little things I know, Eliza and Ronnie, they had good chemistry. They were so cute. They were really cute together. I think they really were. And I truly think that Eliza was really taken back by how Justin came down the stairs for her. And Justin being the hottie that he is, I think she was

just so caught up into the swooning and the pursuit of Eliza and it validated her ego. And I think if nothing else, this is a lesson to learn that the chemistry or the moment doesn't always mean as much as we want to mean. And we might be saying goodbye to a good thing because I get why Rodney, even if he had, you know, any inklings of feelings for Eliza,

it's just like, at this point, it's just too messy and too convoluted for like me to even consider this. Like, you know, and if Eliza truly regrets what she did with rodney i feel bad for i really do but i really think it comes down to her being so into that moment and how justin i think it also had to do with the fact that rodney i mean she's mentioned this on the reunion where how he did but

did not say that he didn't want her to go on the date like i feel like because of that interaction i think that's what led her a little bit more towards justin yeah but i kind of just that's what i'm saying i think we're agreeing but it was because justin had such a moment yeah even though ronnie was like well i mean after like we hey we're having a conversation because that's what couples do we We talk through things and, oh, you wanted me to make it clear that I don't want you to go on a date. Great. Well, I don't, you know, but like, that's not what Eliza wanted. She didn't want to have a conversation. She didn't want to work through problems with someone. She wanted a grand gesture and she wanted to feel special and she wanted to feel like a queen. She literally said, my person will make a scene for me.

Yeah. And that's what she wanted. And Rodney did not make a scene. And Rodney didn't make a scene. And I'm curious, if I had one question to Eliza was, what did you learn from this experience? And I would hope that she would say, maybe someone making a scene for me isn't what I realize I needed. There's definitely a lot more to the story. We'll see if it, how it plays out on social media, but. They definitely completely breezed over the three of them.

I don't think Justin said a word. I don't think. They literally could have had a cutout of Justin. Of him making some sort of face. Yes. Some expression. I don't know. Yeah. Can we talk about how from the start at the rose ceremony,

Jesse says, if you are giving someone a rose, it means you see a future with them. Johnny goes up to Victoria and says, I don't know what the future holds, but I know living in the right now. From the gate, it was very clear that he was not understanding the assignment

but still turning it in. He said a couple things. He was just in. He said, he said a couple of things. He was just like, he was just like. Oh, he said he's scared of commitment. Yeah. Scared of commitment and scared of one person for the rest of his life. You know, and like he's saying that to the ITMs. And then the next scene is him, you know, telling Victoria, you know, that you're the reason I'm ready and things like that. And listen, like,

I'm not trying to criticize Johnny, you know, in this regard. It's just like, it's less of a criticism more than like an observation. It's like an observation from someone who wasn't emotionally invested in that moment, you know, who can see it a little more honestly and a little more objectively. But the reality is, is that he very much communicated throughout the season, his reluctance and his fears of getting engaged and his readiness for getting engaged. It was clearly a big part of his storyline with, with Gabby, as we talked about. And then at one time he's telling us America, he's afraid of, you know, commitment and, and maybe it's because he has been hurt. Like he referenced that. And then he's telling Victoria something completely different. And I understand why, right? You,

you don't want to sound confused or unsure of your feelings. So you play it up, but, and I'm not, I'm not accusing Johnny of lying to Victoria. I'm just saying that those, those matter, you know, those, that disconnect matters. He also said something at the proposal, which was very kind of sweet. But he said to her, he was trying to validate Victoria. And he said, I've never felt so sure of myself or confident. He basically was saying, you're all the reasons why I feel this way now. And that was very sweet. But objectively, you should want to feel that way on your own. You can't rely on someone else to be the reason that you believe in yourself and the reason

you finally have confidence. It's honestly too much pressure on any one relationship. And again, it's a very relatable feeling. This happens in relationships all the time. It's not a criticism to Johnny. But I think as we get into, obviously, they're no longer together. They broke up. I think it would behoove Johnny to recognize that and take some accountability that while I'm sure he's upset and he has a right to be upset and he has a right for his feelings to be hurt that you know

maybe they weren't just maybe they just weren't a good match maybe it was just as toxic as victoria claims it was and we certainly will have questions for victoria next week when she's here about this relationship and and trying to get more specifics on the timeline and certainly more specifics as to like what exactly was toxic about this relationship. But I think Johnny gave us plenty of insight as to why it might have been toxic because if Johnny has these things he needs to work on for himself and this lack of self-confidence, he shouldn't be counting on Victoria to make him feel this way constantly. Because what happens in those situations, if Victoria has an issue or a problem with Johnny, and then she critiques him about something that

she might not like, even if it's constructive, this is the same person that is attributing all their confidence to. So if Natalie is my girlfriend and I'm like, you know, I've, I, I don't feel good about myself. I'm not confident myself, but having you makes me feel this way. That sounds really nice. But that same person is the one like, Hey, but I need you to do this. And can you please work on this? That's going to sound so heavy. It's going to feel so incredibly heavy because that's the person who's also giving you all your confidence because you claim to have none on your own. Right. And then you're also going to respond from a place of like feeling super defensive and hurt and like the rugs being pulled out from under you. So not only is it like the catalyst of a conversation, you're also coming into that conversation feeling like an animal

that's like backed into a corner. And like, that's when I think people say the most like harmful, toxic shit is when they're feeling like really out of control and not able to like emotionally regulate. Yeah, totally. And so I guess let's just get into obviously the, the, what do we call this? Is it the reunion? Is it the hell? I don't know. They call it the reunion. The reunion. Okay. So at the reunion, Johnny comes out and, you know, and him, his boy, Tyler, you know, very sad boy energy, you energy, just down in the dumps. And listen, I think Johnny certainly has a right to be sad. And if I'm Johnny, I'd be mad. If you are in a very serious relationship and it was maybe the most meeting relationship that you've ever had, and that person leaves and dates someone else, that hurts. That is painful.

and that person leaves and dates someone else, that hurts. That is painful. Like, it sucks. There's no way to slice it. It sucks. Does that mean that the other person did something wrong? Not necessarily.

What did we think about what Victoria said in terms of what she accused Johnny of? Because, you know, basically Johnny was playing sad boy and then questioned victoria's character and essentially accused her of cheating right absolutely and he accused her of cheating and it's victoria was given such like a test in that way just even in the way they structured the filming the fact that johnny comes out first he gets all of his alone time he gets to kind of tell jesse slash everyone in the audience slash America what happened. Suddenly you're thinking of Victoria as this person with low character, as this person who's potentially cheating.

It's why her entrance into the soundstage was so bad. Because everyone's thinking that she's this bad person. We're believing Johnny because it's the only POV that we've heard. Johnny, because it's the only POV that we've heard. So then she's automatically kind of, she has to go even, she has to try twice as hard to get her point across because we now all have Johnny's words in our heads. But she had good points of, you know,

what is the standard amount of time I'm supposed to take before finding someone new? And I honestly wish, and I know they probably couldn't do this. I want it. Well, I mean, to finish that thought, what is the appropriate amount of time to find someone new when the person in your relationship with you calls you a fucking cunt correct i mean just i think everyone knew those were the words

that were bleeped out but those words yeah in case you didn't in case you didn't know victoria accused johnny of johnny calling her a fucking cunt. And Johnny didn't deny it. He did not. She also said the cooking and cleaning, and he did say to that that that was a joke. Yeah. But the fucking cunt was not a joke. Yeah, he did respond to the cooking and cleaning.

And listen, I absolutely plan on asking Victoria what role she played I mean she claimed the relationship was toxic she didn't sound like she was necessarily blaming him for all the toxic behavior she was just saying the relationship itself was toxic and I'd love to ask Victoria how toxic it was and what

role she played I didn't get and that's the impression I got from Victoria where she was saying like we just weren't a fit like I have certain standards that I want and we didn't have it in this relationship, you know? It's definitely like I've been in both positions before. I've been, so I understand Johnny, right? I understand being in a relationship with someone, you break up and immediately they're in a new relationship

or it feels like immediately they're in a new relationship and that sucks and I've felt that before. And so I do feel for Johnny and I do have sympathy for him in that instance. But I also have been in a very toxic and very abusive relationship to where when I got out of that finally took me forever. When I finally got out of that and my next relationship was toxic, not to the extent as the last one, I was very quick to get out of it because as soon as I saw the signs, I was toxic, not to the extent as the last one, I was very quick to get out of it. Because as soon as I saw the signs, I was like, I've told myself that I'm not going to put up with this any longer. So like, I will be getting out. And I left so fast. And I think, you know, I am obviously very

good friends with Victoria. And I know about her past. And it's, I think she just, when she saw the signs of it being as toxic as it was, she was like, I'm stepping away from this completely. So I get it. Yeah,

I think some things are just fireable offenses. Like there's not a meeting with HR. It's just like, you're gone. Like you stepped off. There is no exit interview.

It's like, you're out of there. It's just like, for some people, it's not in their vocabulary. It's just not, you know, like for a lot of men, it's not in their vocabulary to It's just not, you know, like for a lot of men,

it's not in their vocabulary to get mad, raise their voice, and call their partners a fucking bitch or a fucking cunt or anything like that. Like that's, you know, a lot of men don't do that. And I, like, I met Johnny once. He seems like a nice guy. I think he's well-intentioned, you know. But if he, in fact, said that, I just don't know. I was honestly surprised by the

audience's reaction uh at least how it was aired because while when victoria said that the audience gave a kind of thing but like at the end of the day they seem to be more team johnny than they were team victoria and i'm a little surprised by let's be honest because there was a moment when greg came out and they started talking about their relationship and it cut to a clip of caitlin and i looking at each other like i don't know and then it cut yeah you kind of you gave us you gave some you gave some side eye no but i didn't because they cut back to the wide and you see caitlin and i both grinning because we were happy for them. I noticed that. Yeah, I noticed that.

Oh, interesting. I was like, you should have seen Andrew S. and I during this whole thing. It was the most stoic. We were like, we had the biggest poker faces like known to man.

And then I like was like, oh, I'm probably being like too above and beyond for like doing a poker face. And then I like watched it and I was like, oh, there she is. Thank God I didn't react.

Cut to Allie in sunglasses and cards. The show seemed to... I thought Victoria did a very good job. Again, we're friends with them, obviously. That's no secret. It's no secret. Again, want to be as objective as possible. I think Victoria has some questions to answer next week and we're we're gonna try to get to the bottom of it are I will put this out there we

are the mutual friends that introduced Greg and Victoria so we were we were Greg said we met through mutual friends that was us I knew that I was like yay okay I didn't I didn't even know that but um yeah um what was I gonna say but the show seemed to, where they left it, kind of up for debate, right? Was Johnny accuses Victoria of cheating on her, right? Victoria comes out. She's like, absolutely not. Even to the point where Jesse asked Victoria, did you cheat on Johnny? She's like, absolutely not.

She goes to Johnny, you know I didn't cheat on you. She said that at a very confident, very to Johnny, you know, I didn't cheat on you. Like she said that at a very kind of very believable, like, you know, I didn't, this is bullshit kind of thing. And then, and then Victoria says to Johnny, like, I told you that I wasn't going to be engaged to anyone if this is what was going on in a relationship. And Johnny seemed to also acknowledge that, right? But then Johnny said, well, I just thought you wouldn't be talking with someone else while we were working on things. And then- She says we took a break. Yeah, and then Johnny said, and then Johnny accused her of emotionally cheating,

which is like, okay, you know, and again, I'm here to say emotionally cheating, physically cheating, there's no difference, you know? Like, I totally agree with Johnny there, but like, where is this timeline, right? And there seems to be a big discrepancy between, you know, when Johnny and Victoria took a break or ended their engagement versus when did Greg and Victoria start talking romantically? We will certainly get the answers from Victoria and Greg. Lucky for y'all. Lucky for y'all.

I do have the receipts. And I feel like every time I'm on here, I do be reading text messages. Always. Always got a primary source. Yeah. I am not afraid to read a text message. We were watching it last night and Nellie is like wait I think I literally

I was like I know we've talked about when they took a break we've had that conversation before and so I went through our text messages and I scrolled all the way up and sure enough on September 5th I texted her because we were on the phone earlier that day. And she was like,

yeah, I'm like, me and Johnny are doing very good. We're going to, you know, have a conversation about it and just like see what our next step is because this is just like not very good. So I text her and I said, how did the conversation go? And she responded with, we're on a break. September 5th, we are on a break. Seven weeks later, I texted her. She told me that she's on her first date with Greg in Rome. Seven weeks. So that is seven weeks. Now, that doesn't mean that her and Johnny did not speak at all or see each other within that seven weeks.

But they were on a break. It does mean on September 5th, the breakup proceedings were in full effect. Yes, court was in session. effect. Court was in session. Yeah, court was in session. You know, what conversations had between now and then. But yeah, to Natalie's point, seven weeks. How long are you

supposed to be sidelined? Were they even together for seven weeks? And also again, are we, because the scale is, they got engaged after three weeks of dating. So it's like, when we're also talking about time here, we need more knowledge that the scale is they got engaged after three weeks of dating so it's like we're when we're also talking about time here like we need more knowledge that like the scale is really different we're like and victoria and greg weren't like it wasn't a thing that like nick and i did where you're like facetiming and you're texting for weeks and weeks and weeks and then you finally

hang out like it wasn't like that it was like they started texting and he's like, as he said on the reunion, I would love to just take you for a drink. And they booked a trip to Rome two days later. I'm going to interrogate them very much on the timeline next week. So we have obviously these receipts. Natalie knows more than I do about this stuff, but rest assured, I will be asking Greg and Victoria very specific questions about when and how it started. I assume they're going to want to answer these questions because I do believe Victoria that she didn't cheat physically or emotionally. And while I understand why Johnny's upset and he has a right to be hurt, and I get why he's mad that he has a version of his head to maybe make himself feel better

or maybe not to take accountability for the role he played in this relationship, just not being very compatible or being toxic, as Victoria said. What do we think about the Tyler and Johnny conversation? Trash. I want to ask Allie and Amanda, again, we're friends with Greg and Victoria.

We have a level of bias, but I'm curious from you ladies, what do you think about that? There was a lot of Tyler stuff that was cut. Tyler was really trying to be involved in their whole conversation. So I think that's what led to the parking lot. Sure.

Well, I do know like, I heard that Tyler brought up Natalie's birthday party and made some wild accusation. I think Tyler and Johnny are reading way too much Reddit, is my guess. And they said a bunch of crazy things

about this alleged birthday party that I can assure you nothing. And there were like 40 people there. If something was going on, someone would have saw. But yeah, I think, you know, listen, Tyler if something was going on someone would have saw but yeah i think you know listen tyler wants to be there for his boy but anyways forgetting about what we didn't see i'm just asking ali and amanda and maybe amanda what did you think about that interaction about because listen like tyler and johnny they were very much questioning victoria's character the

you know what type of person she is we know the truth you chose not to say anything she chose to spill some tea and like again johnny i don't know like if you called victoria a fucking cunt that's on you bro and and and victoria saying that on national television well just don't call someone a fucking cunt and don't call your partner who you claim to love or your fiance. Like that's a zero tolerance policy. I'm sorry. There's no excuse.

There's nothing. And again, like I don't, I'm not saying if he said that, I'm not even saying he's a bad guy or he can't learn from it. I am just saying you don't get to, your boy doesn't get to be all like, well, you took the high road by not saying anything and blah blah blah like i don't know what victoria kind of did but if you call her a fucking cunt i'm sorry like i also i right i feel like because as you're saying like boys like with your friends you're not when your friend is upset you're not necessarily trying to be objective you're like

there with someone you really fucking care about who's like not doing well but I think that's where it's so important to know how to validate emotions without letting those emotions then validate like a different reality or all these facts because like I think Tyler took it way too far in trying to comfort his friend and trying to be like yeah I totally get why you're upset man like he then snowballed it into like questioning victoria's character speaking on so many areas where like he did not have any kind of like expertise or knowledge of but was just going off of like that feeling of like i want to make you i'm on your team man so like anything that's like pro you like i am like am pro yeah i mean he basically had johnny's word in the in rumors on the internet to try to like bash Victoria's character. And I think you make a great point, Amanda.

He could have easily said, hey, man, I'm really proud of you. You were vulnerable. Like, good for you. Like, you stood your ground. Like, it's a tough situation. But like, I'm proud of you, man. He definitely did not have to try to assassinate Victoria's character for what I can only gather is hearsay

and no actual proof. But shout out to Victoria for saying finally at one point, and I know it seemed a little out of left field because again, so much was cut, but her finally turning to Tyler and saying, this doesn't involve you. This isn't your relationship. And it was getting to the point where it was just so obnoxious and it was it it made me question like do you just want your 15 minutes or do you want to say like well i know what happened like yeah he didn't need to be part of that he wasn't in the relationship tyler doesn't know shit he knows what johnny has told him but like he has not been in any room or any has seen anything been in any room or any has seen anything of johnny and victoria or director yeah i mean like he knows not he knows nothing i don't want to hear you talk about a party that you weren't even at

is the thing literally like it's yeah so i mean i just wanted to share those because there is proof that there was such a long amount of time from said break to first date with Greg in Rome. There was no overlap. There was no emotional cheating. There was no physical cheating. There was enough time for her to end her relationship with Johnny, more than that if she needed to, and then be like, more than that, if she needed to, and then be like, hey, Greg, let's go hang out.

Let's go to Rome. Again, granted, the text message says we're on a break, and who knows? We were on a break. And it sounds like maybe more conversations needed to happen between Johnny and Victoria. There were 100% more conversations that happened. Sure, I'm just saying, to your point,

seven weeks in the grand schemes of Bachelor Nation is an eternity. You have close encounters with the paparazzi. Like maybe you can speak to this. To me, there was something about the logic about being like, we didn't want to be photographed. Like we just wanted to go on a date, so we went to Rome. Where I was like, I totally respect the move of having a first date in Rome. No, I don't think it's paparazzi.

I think they just didn't want to go to like a bar in New York City where there's tons of Bachelor Nation fans who would be like, bank, Greg and Victoria. So they were like, let's go to Rome to where like, I'm sure there's probably less Bachelor Nation fans. But it's kind of a high risk, high reward because it's like, sure, there's a lower odds of them getting caught. But if they're caught, they're caught in Europe together.

And that's romantic. Fucking Rome together. It's like the older the city the like hotter the romance we can't get like an airbnb somewhere and make some at-home cocktails they admit i mean like listen i don't buy if they if greg and victoria come in next week and we're just like we only went to rome to avoid being caught like i don't believe that i what i believe is kind of a very crazy romantic gesture that was like supported by being like well and like people also probably will be less likely to see us totally I mean like my sister and her now fiance like met over the internet and he was like hey

like would love to meet you I'll fly you out to Mexico and they went and met in Mexico. So some people just like, are like, let's go and do this thing and like, let's be romantic and like have fun and go somewhere different.

I have too much anxiety for that. I know, but she also was like, because it's crazy, right? It is crazy. I don't like being trapped

in a three and a half hour improv class. You think I want to be trapped in a hotel with someone? Absolutely not. The way Nellie and I met was crazy you know what i'm saying like we both went to new york and was like hoping the other wouldn't murder each other you know like did not get along what if the vibes were so off totally yeah you spend five hundred dollars and buy a ticket home like you take the risk for sure but i think they had spent so much like the, the first couple of days that they were

there, I think they were so on edge and so nervous and they didn't really go out in Rome because they were like, you know, we're just so anxious about this. We don't want photos to come out and whatnot. And then they were like, we aren't enjoying ourselves. Like, this is not fun to constantly be looking over our shoulders. Like, we're not doing anything wrong. I have like me and Johnny are well and done over. This is new. Like, let's just go out.

Who gives a fuck? And so that's why the photos initially came out, because they were like, fuck it. Like, let's just go have fun in Rome. And we can't live life according to the standards of our ex and like trying to like tiptoe around their feelings. Or fascination. Or fascination. Judging you. I think they're trying

to do their best to like protect their relationship in the real world while still hoping that everyone doesn't hate them or accuse her of cheating

or things like that. But we will have them both in studio next week to answer all these questions i will say chow is a great tattoo to get because it means hello and goodbye so it's it fits no matter what happens i thought i thought because i he said when when greg said on the show like it it means hi i thought he said hot and i was like well that's bold like two hot people getting the word hot tattooed to their bodies but then i realized i just wasn't paying attention did he say hi i still thought he no he said hi i just wasn't no i genuinely

thought he said hot he didn't no it's high yeah i thought he was making a joke like i knew i know it's not actually the word for hot but i thought he was being funny i think it just sounded like hot but it's actually speaking of two hot people, should we get into the engagement very quickly? Oh, yeah. Brandon and Serena. Yay! Next time you're on here. I mean, we knew that all along.

From the second we saw them, we knew they were so in love. I mean, they seem like a lovely couple. They seem like great people. Brandon was on our show. I've talked to him one other time seems like a really stand-up guy i guess my only honest question is like i mean brandon certainly waxes poetic all the time can he maintain this i mean let's just be real he is

infusing these these very descriptive words and he is very good at articulating his feelings and he is he's words of affirming his words are affirming like what if he doesn't keep that up i feel like will he keep it that's a lot to keep up i think serene will be fine with that though like serene's so confident and stable and independent i think it's serene's the type of person who looks at a relationship as like the icing on the cake not as as a need per se. So I think she would be there for him in the same way he is for her. If he has a down day or a down period of life or he can't be that emotive, I think she's going to know that they have a strong enough foundation where again, I don't think she's like holding onto that as the one reason she can get through her day. It's a great addition to her life i don't think

she's gonna fall apart if she doesn't have it i love how johnny referred to himself as a hopeless romantic and he's like mr won't get engaged like i'm worried about getting engaged because it means i'm not trying to shit on johnny like i this is not a victoria versus johnny like he i met him he seems like a nice swell guy but like i don't know if he's quite at the hopeless romantic level, uh, that he thinks he is. Yeah. Yeah.

He was, he was like, uh, his proposal was, uh, every King needs their queen. Oh my God. Yeah.

That was rough. I was upset by that. I was not a fan. And so, you know, like, and maybe this speaks to Johnny, swell guy,

maybe you're, maybe you aren't in fact ready for an engagement and that's okay. You know, that's totally fine. I think to your point about like, can Brandon maintain it? It's also like at the beginning of a relationship, you don't have that shared history. You don't have all the memories, these experiences, these times when like things have gotten difficult and you've seen each other stand by one another. So I think it will be, my hope is that like his like poetic promises

for the future will be replaced by like actual shared history and things that they endure as a couple and get through. So that way, even though like, yeah, the word you can't say the same, like you run out of words. There's only so many amazing words. Meet his words.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we wish him the best. They are a lovely couple, both as people and and just like honestly there's hot so i had a really quick question which is just how did people feel about the like serene brooke russell i love it i love it what love love love natalie loved it when how brandon would always say like serene brooke russell will you accept this rose also

how do we feel about their kisses because they were macking at the rose ceremony that is one I I know the last time I recapped an episode I talked about how I struggle watching people kiss on tv and like Tyler and Brittany kind of um but Vernon and Serene you know that is like a rom-com movie kiss. Like they've got a very good, it doesn't gross me out. I'm not like, Oh my God, that tongue just went way too.

All right. We'll play a quick game before we wrap up. Which, uh, which bachelor couple sex tape would you want to watch? And which one would you just politely decline to see here on Romeo? All right. So we got Michael and Danielle. She's like, I would be a porn star in another life.

Didn't she say that in the first episode? I'm sure she did. I'm sure. Is there, would we watch their porno? Would we watch their sex tape? Brandon and Serene's? Absolutely not Brandon and Serene. I think it would be so boring.

I would feel like I was violating their trust. It would be boring. No. I think it's straight lovemaking. There's no one's. It would be too intimate for me. I feel like they must have like really passionate, intimate, tender sex. And I don't want to peek in on that.

Do you think they ever just fuck? You know, they just straight lovemaking all the time? I don't know. I feel bad even talking about it. They're just too pure. Yeah. Michael A. and Danielle, would you watch their sex tape? Oh.

We can't have that out there. Your dad? Poor James. The number of times. Whose sex tape would you watch? Jill and Jacob's. Victoria and Greg. Woo!

Woo! Woo! Oh, Jill and Jacob's is a great answer. I would just like Aaron and Genevieve's. Would you not watch that? Oh, yeah. A little fight. say like Aaron and Genevieve's. Would you not watch that? Oh, yeah. A little fight. Ew.

Aaron and Genevieve's? Angry sex. Well, I mean. I'm disgusted. Allie feels just as strongly about Aaron as you do, Allie, just in the very opposite direction. Thank you. All right.

Well, I think that about wraps it up. I hope you all have a very, very happy and safe holiday season. Travel safe with your family if you are traveling. Be kind to one another, all that fun stuff. Thank you for listening. We love you. Reminder that there is no Going Deeper episode this week. Spend time with your family. If you are in need for some Vile Files content, I'm sure there's an episode you haven't listened to. Go back and check it out. There's the update episode that dropped a few weeks ago. There's some Ask Nick's out there. We will be back next week. Obviously, Ask Nick on Monday, Victoria and Greg on Wednesday, but there's a good chance we're

going to drop that early because we know you guys are anxious to hear it. So look for that maybe sometime Tuesday. And then on Thursday for Going Deeper, the one and only Katie Maloney from Vanderpump to talk about all the Vanderpump drama, their upcoming new season. Lots to get into with her. And I'm sure we'll be talking about a lot of other topics. Oh, reminder, go watch Jonah Hill's new movie, Stutz. Is it Stutz? It's a documentary about his therapist. We're going to discuss it more in later episodes. Ali, Amanda, watch it. Everyone who's listening, you should watch it for your own mental health. There's some great takeaways, some great tools on just general happiness

and like getting over adversity. A lot of things they talk about on that movie we talk about on the show, but his therapist does a great job of articulating how to utilize these tools. I just highly recommend you guys check it out. It has 100% on Rotten Tomatoes, which is very impressive.

It's so good. It's really good. It's really good. So check it out. I want to talk more about it. I'm going to watch it like three more times. I just think there's some really practical, useful tools in it. Let's get into next week. I hope you join us. We'll see you next week.

Happy Thanksgiving. Happy holidays to everyone, even if you don't celebrate Thanksgiving, whatever. Anything else, babe? We're thankful for you. I was saying we're thankful for everyone. And also, if you got a turkey dump situation on your hands, if you're going through a breakup,

the breakup playlist is out. Check out the Vile Files Instagram. Bye.