The Viall Files - E518 Harry and Meghan Recap with Chloe Bale Plus Royals Expert Michelle Tauber

Episode Date: December 22, 2022

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files, Going Deeper Edition! Today we are joined by actress Chloe Bale as we recap the final three episodes of the Harry and Meghan Netflix series, finishing Volume Two! After catching up with Chloe about everything she has had going on in her life, we have Michelle Tauber, the senior editor overseeing Royals coverage at People, join the episode via Zoom. We dive into talking about how the tone felt different in this volume, Henry's trauma from the loss of Princess Diana, how the media scene compares to the paparazzi in LA, the theatrical language the royals use, King Charles’ thoughts on the situation, and the never complain and never explain mentality embedded in the royal family. We also get into having more empathy after this series, trying to fix family issues in the public eye, growing up being the “spare” of the family, conflicts in emotional intelligence, Meghan and Harry’s expectations of releasing a tell-all, and where we think things will go from here. We then bring on our Texting Office Hours caller, who is seeking help in getting dumped by her brother’s best friend. After feeling a hard time trusting this man in her interactions with him after the breakup, our caller wonders the best way to move on. “Never complain, never explain!” If you are interested in running a book club in your city, send an email to: [e-mail]  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  If you would like to get some advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Office Hours” in the subject line!  Be sure to check out my sports radio show Fandemonium, Wednesdays @ 3PT / 6 ET on Amazon's Amp app. Click the link to download Amp using my code NICKVIALL https://apps.apple.com/us/app/amp-host-live-radio-shows/id1586403838 To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com Support a Local Bookstore: https://bookshop.org/books/don-t-text-your-ex-happy-birthday-and-other-advice-on-love-sex-and-dating-9798212185622/9781419755491 THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Total Wireless: Total by Verizon is available at http://www.TotalByVerizon.com and at retailers nationwide. Wondery: Follow Even The Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app.  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @chloebaleofficial @michelletauber See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You can listen to The Vile Files ad-free on Amazon Music. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The Vile Files Going Deeper Edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by Allie in studio. Amanda, unfortunately, has the COVID for the very first time. She is a good run, Amanda.

Good run. Good for you. Fallen soldier. Seem to be doing well. She's hanging in there, so we appreciate her participating from the safety and comfort of her home. We had a great episode for you. My friend Chloe Bale is with us. Chloe's a friend I've known for a long time. She's from London. And so we figured we'd have a Brit on here to give us their perspective

of the press and what that is like. We also have Michelle Tauber with us, who's the People Magazine royal expert. She's very read in on all things royal. And I definitely got to say, episode four, five, and six made me really empathize with Harry and Meghan a lot more than episodes one, two, and three did. Yeah, there's this shift in tone, I feel like. Yeah, they came across way more likable,

I think, in these last three episodes. I wonder if that was like Netflix's decision. I can't, I feel like it has to be. I think it was so different in terms of their likability in the second half. There was a little part of me that thought maybe they were trying to lay a trap. So by not having the really explosive stuff in the second release, they were like, oh, and we know the media is going to cover

this first three episodes just the way that we're about to criticize them for in the next four. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think so. I think that was more Netflix being good storytellers. I don't feel like Harry and Meghan were in it for the criticism that way.

And again, I still, and we'll get into it in the episode in terms of the things I don't get, but I will say they came across far more likable. But we get into it. Chloe is great. Michelle's great. We have a lot to discuss. Amazing texting office hour. Also, don't forget that next week, we only have two episodes. We have an Ask Nick and we have our update special. It's a great update special. You won't want to miss it. So in that kind of dreary, no man's land week of the year. Confusion fog.

Maybe you're working, maybe you're not. Certainly family is going to get on your nerves. We're here to help. Just go hide away and listen to a good episode. And listen to us, yeah. Anything else we need to cover too? We got a lot to get into in this episode. Yeah, let's dive right in. Let's get into the episode. All right. Chloe, welcome. Hello. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. Cold, actually.

Yeah. It's cold in LA. It is. I didn't move here for this weather. Yeah, it was very cold. Surprisingly. Took a nice hot tub last night. Ooh. Sexy time hot tub? Well, you know. Cozy time hot tub. No, definitely sexy time hot tub. Yeah. The lack of an answer is giving us one. For sure.

I'm so happy to have you here. I haven't seen you in a while. We used to spend all this time together. All the time. All the time. And then we just, you know as as life happens we haven't seen and it was because of harry and megan they brought you and i back together look at us we want we talked about this last week on the show we didn't have any brits in the room to uh

to discuss and now we have you to break help us break down episode four and five and six. And then we have Michelle Tauber, People Magazine's royal correspondent. Senior editor at People, has been covering the royals for over 20 years and is going to be our resource. So we'll talk with Michelle in a bit here. We'll ask her some questions and then we'll all break it down. As we know,anda is amanda's homesick with with the vid it finally got me this is your first time later is this your first time yeah and i'd felt a little bit special honestly huh that happened to me too shocking that you this is the first time you got it this is shocking you say yeah because you're an adventurous person you're out there you're i've got an amazing immune system yeah you're doing i really you're out there you're doing

shit yeah no i i'm very much someone who's like you know eat a bit of dirt it's good for you so i think i've been vindicated in that only now has coveted taking me down and then we also have a sexy sid here with us oh yeah he's actually put his face down inside my arm it's way too early for him can we get a shot of that sexy face no how old is he he'll wake up at some point he's 22 now he's 22 yeah yeah it's quite it's quite a fate but um well we think he we think he's 22 he's a. I got him when he was roughly 10. They scan the teeth and say, we think he's 10. So that's how they scan the teeth? And that was 12 years ago.

Yeah. That's how they figure out the age. And now he has zero teeth. So there's no way. There's no way. Really confirming it. No way to know. Nothing to scan.

22 seems old for a dog. No, it is. It is. And the Guinness Book of World Records right now, the oldest dog, I believe, is 21 and a half and lives here in Los Angeles and is a Chihuahua. And so obviously Sid should be there, but we don't have the proof. We don't have a birth certificate. Could Sid possibly be the oldest dog in the world?

He could possibly be the oldest living dog in the world. Do you know how old the oldest dog actually ever was that lived? No. 29. In Australia. Was it also a chimp? It was an Australian shepherd dog that was 29 years old. Did I say chimp? Did you say chimp? You definitely did. My take's going to be great today.

Can we, I'm like, how do we find, because we just need the proof. So if we know where he was rescued, can we start a like how do we find because we just need the proof yeah so if we know where he was rescued can we start a campaign like if you know you're trying to sit in because i kind of want to do the same thing like if anyone knows a dog who was named shock we in chicago like let me know like we need to find the original owners unfortunately he was found walking on the freeway oh can you imagine this tiny little pound thing walking on the freeway and he was actually rescued by this he was taken to a shelter which was unfortunately a high kill shelter and then this wonderful company

called molly's mutts and meows of beverly hills rescued him from that and then i saw him on their website and i just fell in love with him. Yeah. Straight away. They actually tried to, the doctors suggested maybe I choose another dog because he'd had a lot of abuse and was very old and had a lot of health problems. But I fell in love with him and it was the best thing I ever did. Sexy Sid. Sexy Sid. Yeah, he's a chill dog. We've watched a lot of movies together.

Yes, you have. I'm obsessed with Sid. Chloe, tell us about about yourself where are you from okay so i'm from kent uh margate to be specific calling out to the margate posse and then i moved to london when i was 16 spent a lot of my life there and then i moved here 12 years ago i won't say how old i was okay all right yeah and this has been my home for 12 years now but i've been dying to like find a reason to have you on and we've talked a few times you're a person amongst town i don't know how to describe it you know people that doesn't sound good that

sounds like a woman of the night yeah which sounds a bit like when you were saying that she's out there and you're not surprised she hasn't had COVID before. You're tapped in. You know everybody. Sure. By the way, I only just had COVID as well. I lasted the whole time without getting it. That's also amazing to me. I know because I really am out there. You're so out there. I'm so out there. Yeah.

You know, that's how you and I met, wasn't it? We met at a private membership club through a mutual friend of ours. Are you guys Harry and Meghan at Soho House? Oh, my God. Maybe. Maybe. So, Harry and Meghan.

But, yeah, and I think you'll have some interesting perspectives on this whole situation. And I'm happy to chat with you about it. I think our royal expert is here. So, let's bring on Michelle. Michelle, welcome. Thank you about it. I think our royal expert is here. So let's bring on Michelle. Michelle, welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, we're excited to have you. To start off, can we just let the people know a little bit about your background as it relates to being a royal expert and what that looks like? How did you get into it? Bring us up to speed on your, I guess, credentials.

Sure. I have to laugh too because in the first part of the netflix series do you remember the print harry says so-called royal experts like your air quotes you were the so-called i felt very called out i did um but yeah so i've been covering the royal family for People for 22 years. People Magazine was effectively my first job out of college, and I was writing about the Royals from the get-go. So I've been doing it a long time. I covered Prince Harry's Invictus Games in The Hague in the Netherlands this past spring. It was really a great experience.

I was just in Boston for Prince William's Earthshot Prize with Princess Kate. So yeah, I've been doing this a while and I've had a pretty good front row seat to much of the drama of the past few decades with this family. Yeah. And there seems to have been a lot of drama and there certainly seems to be a ton of drama now. that to me that's what this has kind of been all about just like a i mean it just it just feels like i i'm we have the pleasure from an entertainment standpoint of watching this kind of family feud unfold across like all forms of media i i guess for for you I'm curious, just what's your thought on the Netflix documentary?

And what was your maybe your thought going in just from your standpoint? Do you try to have being the expert in an unbiased opinion? Or do you find yourself, you know, critiquing certain things? Or where do you stand on, on this whole mess? Yeah. So, I mean, it's true, you know, in terms of the drama, I mean, you know, the best illustration of that, of course, is the crown, right? Which we literally consume as entertainment about these real people, their real lives, but it is played out in such a sort of, you know, mate, like on this global stage, and certainly now this latest entry with Meghan and Harry, you know, going into the docuseries, I do try to keep an open mind,

of course, as a journalist. I sort of sat there slack-jawed for the first volume just because there were so many blanks being filled in that a year or two ago at People, we would have given anything to know. Like, what was that? How did they actually meet? What was that first date like? Let alone see like a blurry selfie taken from that first date. You know, we knew about the Botswana, like romantic getaway, but photos from that, it was such a big sort of revelation to me to see those things actually on screen. And, you know, to see those things actually on screen. And, you know, and then some of it, of course,

we knew, and this was building on, we knew that this was building on what they told Oprah, right? And there wasn't actually a ton new, as I think you guys pointed out in last week's episode of the podcast, that there wasn't a lot new that hadn't been explored on Oprah. So that was something that I thought was a little, a little disappointing

in terms of telling their story, filling in some of the blanks in that way that I felt like we didn't quite get. Yeah. A lot has been made in terms of, I feel like a lot of this documentary was talking about the treatment of Meghan and Harry versus some of the royal families, and specifically the treatment of Meghan royal families and specifically like the treatment of Meghan versus Kate and other people. How do you see it in terms of someone like myself who historically hasn't been paying a lot of attention to the royals? You know, I've watched one season of The Crown, so I can't really, you know, speak to how other people in the royal family have been treated. Obviously, Meghan and Harry have their perspective. How do you see as someone who's been following this

family for a long time and how people, you know, like Princess Diana, obviously she dealt with a lot of harassment from the paparazzi in the press and sadly that, you know, led to her death. But yeah, how do you see the treatment of Meghan versus the treatment of other royals in the family? Yeah. So Diana really was in a league of her own in terms of her level of fame. And also, as you say, in terms of how she was treated and really abused by the press. And I do think it's worth noting that because of her unbelievably tragic death, which did have a clear line to that press treatment, a lot changed. So when you see in that docuseries Diana walking through the airport, holding up the tennis racket in front of her face, being absolutely hounded, people getting on the elevator with her, paparazzis getting on the elevator with her. on the elevator with her, you know, paparazzi's getting on the elevator with her in the footage.

A lot of people weren't familiar with that footage of her on the slopes with the kids, you know, putting up her hand in front of the camera saying, please leave us alone. That changed after her death. And it's absolutely sort of inconceivable that that's what it took to change that, but it is sadly. So I wouldn't say that either Megan or Kate were subject to that level of hounding you know with kate the distinction i would draw as someone who's watched this family is that she came in really as a blank slate when she entered the spotlight it was as william's girlfriend so there wasn't any there were no like preconceived ideas and nothing really out there about her talk about scrounging like i think for we had one photo, we still do like one photo of her graduation from St. Andrews. And that's it.

With Megan, she came in with, she was famous already. Right. So a lot of people hadn't watched Suits, even people who hadn't, then suddenly they're seeing, oh, right. She was the dealer. She was one of the deal or no deal, you know, suitcase girls. She was divorced. There were photos of her first wedding. So I think, you know, right off the bat, there was a difference in terms of people coming in with like they knew this woman or they didn't versus Kate. They really didn't. And that set up a certainly I think like a different playing field from the get go.

I think when you were saying about after Princess Diana, things changed. Yeah. I don't think that's true in the UK. I think that's why this documentary actually is important. That's the one thing that I think that should come from this documentary, is that the British press accraw and they hound people and they pummel them until they say things like, I didn't know if I wanted to be alive anymore, you know, like Meghan said. And I know like

Princess Diana, it was really, really, really insane. And, but maybe it would have carried on being that way if Meghan had stayed here. And for that reason, I'm really glad they left as well. The here in LA, obviously there's a lot lot of press there's a lot of paparazzis but it's nothing compared to in the UK I have friends who've suffered I lost a friend because of the effects of the press in the UK and I think it's so important that just even if that's all that comes out of this documentary alone is that it does have to change and i remember watching the funeral of princess diana you know when it all happened and thinking oh well this all at least something good will come out of it and i really don't think it has but but you think it's fairly

consistent across the board just in general just the uk press absolutely look what they've done to megan i think is absolutely disgusting and it's heartbreaking and it's cruel um and they're actually doubling down now after the documentary that's what's so sad they don't even you know consider what they've done or maybe wanting to apologize in some way they're doubling down on it and making saying here there you go that's why we would mean to you look because you're still pushing yourself out there. You're still this pushy princess. And yeah, it really breaks my heart. Like I said, I've lost close friends because of this, because of the press hounding in the UK. Yeah, that's crazy.

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It was such a fascinating episode. I loved it. You're going to love it. Make sure to check it out. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. Yeah, no, I mean, we may be talking about slightly different things. What I'm referring to in terms of changes, there were some new genuine boundaries drawn up and set after Diana's death, including, for example, the ski slope. Like, you know, we don't run photos of royal children anymore unless they are photos photos where, you know, the family has released

them themselves or the family is attending a public event. There is no market anymore for hounding the either, you know, the Wales children or the Sussex children, because no one will buy them. Certainly no one reputable and even the UK tabs pretty much abide by that. So certainly not enough changed, but some things did. And I think to your point, I mean, yeah, we see just this past, you know, I'm sure you guys have seen this latest thing with the top gear host, this sort of awfulness coming out of the UK, Jeremy Clarkson, where as if to prove everything Meghan and Harry said in the docuseries, as if to prove everything Meghan and Harry said in the docuseries. He writes this completely vile son piece saying, you know, I hate Meghan with every cell of my being and wish to see her paraded through the streets like that Game of Thrones scene, you know, with shouting shame and

throwing extra, just awful, awful, horrible things that is truly like exactly what they were talking about in the docu-series fueling that kind of hate and vitriol same with pierce morgan too i think he did something equally as he seems to be like yeah he's so anti her but isn't it isn't it doesn't it seem like it's some personal slight because he said they were friends yeah at some point mentioned so they were yeah and then she got too big for her boots once she became right it does it does feel they had a they had a a meeting in london at some point. So they were. And then she got too big for her boots once she became a woman. Right, it does feel, they had a meeting in London at some point when she was out there well before Harry.

And it does feel like, oh, you know, she ghosted him. And he's had an ax to grind ever since. And you remember there were quite a few complaints about him after the Oprah interview, like thousands of people filed complaints. He was ultimately let off the hook. but he said that he didn't believe Megan ever felt, had experienced thoughts of self-harm, felt suicidal and was, you know, taken to task as

he should be for that. But as you say, there's really no remorse. And a lot of people are pointing out that both Jeremy and Pierce, these two guys who said really horrible things, they were both invited to a lunch at which Camilla, a holiday lunch that Camilla, the queen consort, recently attended as well. And so to have them all rubbing elbows certainly is not a great look, to say the least. Yeah. So, and that's my other question, too. A lot of the documentary talked about just the relationship the Royals have with the press. And, you know, Harry and Meghan are under this kind of impression, or strongly believe,

and it seems very believable, especially with some of the evidence they talked about, like his, you know, his former assistant who now works, I think, for William and things like that. Like how much in Cahoots and how much of a role do you think William is playing in this perpetuation of these stories about his brother and his wife? Or is he just more kind of idly, you know, not doing anything about it? Like, how do you see, you know, William's role or William and Kate's role in kind of these stories? Because it seems like Harry and Meghan, like, have the expectation of like, you're my brother. Like, why aren't you stepping up and protecting us? But even beyond

that, Harry even mentioned, you know, we watched what happened in our father's press office. We wouldn't swap out stories. We wouldn't throw each other under the bus. So maybe you can touch on that as well. Was William doing that? Was he swapping out things from his office with things about megan yeah and i mean you saw that at the end of the doc the whole thing ends with that legal pushback the back and forth between jason noff the um aid to william and then the sussexes and basically both saying the other one is being um untruth. And it is really hard. There's a certain, like the whole thing has a sort of Rashomon-like quality, you know, like it's really hard to know, but when everyone's telling their version of events, I thought of the

entire six hours docuseries, the most truthful, honest moment in the series was when you see megan saying to harry after you know they're they're feeling like that story was planted by william's office the pushback about the the the bullying and um and she says to harry he's your brother he's your like so exaggerated like i'm not gonna say anything else but he's your brother and i think that you know um that was where really the the curtain got pulled back the brother. And I think that, you know, that was where really the curtain got pulled back the most, because certainly, as you say, Nick, you know, like they do, Harry would have, Harry would have been witness to how these offices work, you know, internally for his entire life. And at the same time, yes, I think they were expecting him to, you know, to protect them

in a way they felt that he really had no interest in whether he was actively working against them. I think it's really hard unless you're hearing what the other side is saying from William and Kate and you're not. I know. Well, you don't want to speak, obviously, for William and Kate, but all we can do is guess. Like, what is your guess? If you had to guess, what's their point of view in this situation? What do

you think it would be? So it's hard for me to imagine William explicitly saying to an aide, like, plant this story or do this, that underhanded thing. I could see where, however, like this institution, and I think the docuseries does a good job of it. Like the institution has had a sort of, you know, a relationship with the press going back, you know, at least a hundred years. And I could see where aides would feel deputized without it being like a direct order. Aides would feel deputized to manage the situation. And I, you know, I think that like to answer the question about the offices working against each other, I think it is true that for a long time they at least appeared to all sort

of have each other's backs. You know, Charles's office, William and Harry's office. And when the fracture happened, where William and Kate are represented by one office and Meghan and Harry another, I think it is very believable that that created a lot of antagonism between these two couples. When I was watching this, especially the last four episodes, I thought to myself, because they were talking a lot about jealousy, you know, and the potential of jealousy. And I'm thinking, are we just watching like a modern day Shakespearean play? Because I just feel like the story of, you know, the presumed heir to the throne and then the younger brother is like, it's a very common tale that's

been played out over all these movies and plays and this is just like a modern day version right like watching yeah and and in modern day we like our reality tv shows more than we like you know and so this is i just feel like we're just watching a reality tv show on this, what role is this kind of dynamic playing where, like, when I hear Harry's point of view, like, I totally empathize. I see it. I'm like, yeah, this is fucked up. If I was, if I were in Harry's shoes, I'd feel this way. Yeah. But what does, you know, like this idea that, you know, if Harry were William, if he were the firstborn, I just kind of wonder how this all would play out.

Not very, very different. Very different. were William, if he were the firstborn, I just kind of wonder how this all would play out. Very, very different. Very different, right? Yeah, I mean, look, they talked about that, didn't they, in the documentary. And by you saying about it being a Shakespearean drama, they even play into that by the fact that they call each other the principals, which is a very theatrical term, your principal, your lead actor. Yeah, yeah. I noticed they use a lot of theatrical terminology. Yeah. Yeah, everyone on my staff was writing it out in our stories,

principle, P-L-E. And I was like, no, no, no. They're talking about, they're using this weird term. And it's a great point that it's a theatrical term to refer to each other as lead players, P-A-L, at the end. But to your point, Nick, listen, the title of Harry's upcoming memoir is Spare. And when I first took this role.

So they say like the heir and the spare. Okay. Yeah, the heir and the spare. And when I first took this role, one of the first things I did was I said to my team, like, oh, my God, we can't call. Like, I can't believe for this long we've actually been using that term, the heir and the spare, just so casually. When do we call a human being a spare? Right. When they're in line for the heir and the spare just so casually when do we call a human being a spare right when they're in line for the throne and need a backup is that a formal term though when it comes it's not everybody says it yeah it's so widely accepted that no one even

blinked at it right it was just common knowledge that harry was the spare and in fact, Diana even used it at one point. So like in case he dies, he's okay. Yeah, he's a spare. The backup. Okay, wow. So if you're raised, and again, it's no coincidence, of course, that's the title of his memoir. If you're raised your entire life that you're the backup, whether implicitly or explicitly, that's your understanding of your role, then yeah, that's going to create like some major dynamic, like some major inferiority issues and challenges within that sibling dynamic that almost are on a Shakespearean level that I think Americans struggle with. Like, I think it's interesting, you know, to when you ask like how, like sometimes Americans will be like, how important is the succession really? And of course, we're both going like so important. But to, like, oh, they're all royals, though, right? They're

all like princes and princesses, dukes and duchesses. What's the difference, really? But to this family, it's everything. It matters. Yeah. Watching it, it's kind of like, well, I'm just hearing that. For me, just having that realization just kind of cemented that i'm just seeing one person's point of view you know well and you would think that being the spare it should allow you some freedoms and because you're not the one that's next in line and you're not the one that has to follow all of the protocols to the protocols to the t you'd think like well at least i can have a a bit of a normal life but that's kind of what we're seeing. Yeah.

What he couldn't have and that's why he is where he is now. Not so much. Yeah. It's interesting. Do we think, yeah, do we expect King Charles now to do, how do you think he feels about this dynamic? They almost kind of imply that, you know, he's just as messy as the rest of them. How do you see this?

And also, do they like it? Some people are out there saying, hey, listen, at the end of the day, everyone's talking about him. And I just feel like there's power in them. They hate this. They don't like it. Right. I'm with you on that one. This family is the never complain complained never explained mantra set by the

queen and um they hate it they hate it hate it hate it hate it the royals the royals hate it um and they're not supposed to you know as like as you probably know um the queen's entire origin story why she was on the throne at all is because because her uncle abdicated, right, for love. And that really messed things up for this family. And she felt that that kind of like leading with one's heart and airing the dirty laundry in the way that all that scandal was, was pretty unforgivable. scandal was, was some, was pretty unforgivable, not necessarily leading with one's heart, but like letting that family drama take the stage was something that she worked really hard to prevent. And as you know, like really failed at ultimately with her four children. On the other hand, she herself never once spoke about any of that, never once in, you know, except in a couple of

very, you know, scripted, carefully worded statements, but kept all that so close to the vest. As far as the role Charles has, you know, we hear from a lot of people, a lot of sources sort of within this family and close to this family. He just needs to knock their two heads together. And until that happens, these two brothers, nothing will ever be repaired. But when I hear that, I think, does that work in any family? Like when, since when does any father or mother, whatever, really have the power to fix their kids relationships? Let alone, like we were just talking about relationships with this many levels of like fraught, you know, weight. Yeah. Cause like Harry's always going to think that like Charles is taking William's side,

is my guess. Yeah, exactly. Especially if he's critiquing any of Harry's behavior. Now Charles is in the role that the Queen was in, right? He's the head of the family and the head of the institution. And these things really are often in conflict. So it's a catch-22. Has there been, there hasn't been an official statement, right, from the royal family about the documentary? The only statement is they're not making a catch-22. There hasn't been an official statement, right,

from the royal family about the documentary? The only statement is they're not making a statement. Right. Do you think reconciliation is even possible at this point? Because it sure felt like Harry and Meghan, they're doubling and tripling down. They close the door. You hear them say at the end of the doc,

you can't move on until you close the first chapter, you know, the last chapter. And of course, with that book coming, that means there's still more. That's coming in the first week of January. There's going to be even more. A lot of speculation that there'll be quite a bit about Harry's early childhood relationship with Charles. You did see in the doc, they were very careful. There's almost no criticism of Charles. And in fact, Meghan even calls him charming when he walked her down the aisle. So I don't think they've closed the door to that relationship. I do think the heart of all of this conflict is really this ongoing, massive estrangement between the two brothers. And I think I would never say never about a reconciliation, but as far as like,

will the wives ever come together? Will this family ever come together? It's all going to have to come from these two brothers. There will be no detente until they work things out. And right now that seems a really, really far ways off. For the people who are out there who think this drama is coming more from Megan and the Cates and almost like, because I heard that out there. It's almost like the brothers are being torn apart by their wives, by their wives with each other. And Megan's the one who's pulling Harry away and planting

seeds of doubt. And Kate's doing whatever she's doing, maybe the same thing to William. Do you think that's a little far-fetched? Or what do you have to say about that kind of, all those kind of theories that are flown out there? Yeah, I do think it's a lot of misogyny wrapped up in that, like blaming the wives for the brother's estrangement is unfair. I think I get why people say, listen, you know, it's in the public perception, at least. Until Meghan came on the scene, the brothers appeared very close. And then for a while, the brothers and Kate appeared very close.

You know, the three of them, I mean, Harry jokingly said, like, I'm third wheeling it. And they seem to have a really nice relationship. jokingly said, like I'm third wheeling it. And they seem to have a really nice relationship. I think where there's a lot of subtext people missed previously is what we've been talking about, which is that, you know, Harry, and he says this in the docuseries, Harry had this sort of simmering, like fire within that was like, why do I need to play this role of backup isn't there more for me out there and and to that point too like if I am the spare I I should be able to blaze my own trail you know go my own way and so I think it is unfair to say you know and so when Megan came she she made a huge mess and destroyed the brother's relationship and that never happened when kate was on the scene but i think that there is a lot of truth to the fact that harry had this yearning

and also this this feeling of i'm not good enough within this family and as we know like in any family that sets things up for um a lot of conflict yeah it almost seems like Harry played his role and did the things that people thought he was responsible to do. And yeah, I think it's far-fetched and crazy to think that like Meghan came in and got in his head. Puppeteering him. Yeah, puppeteering him. But you know, people think that. Like I spoke to friends and family in the last couple of days that have watched it and they're saying, oh, poor Harry, he's so controlled by Meghan. I don't see that at all.

Yeah, if anything, it's like this was always inside him. He seems to clearly be his mother's son, so to speak. I feel like he's driven by what happened with his mom, and he feels like by saving Meghan, standing up for Meghan, he can save his mom and this is he feels like by saving megan standing up for megan he can save his mom yeah and if anything maybe megan just gave him the confidence to kind of you know let that voice that's always been inside him of wanting to do his own thing and his independence and it was probably megan if anything who said it's okay to feel that way and maybe supported him and and kind of and so maybe she's playing a role for sure i mean

they're partners now and married and so obviously they're both playing a role in each other's decisions but yeah i i don't the idea that she planted yeah very much so right yeah the idea that she planted the seed and completely changed harry's mentality and focus that that doesn't seem to add up at all i think you're right michelle like over time it was probably building like he had this yeah specific role to play in the same way william did and he facilitated a lot of i feel like william and kate's successes like to the point where once diana passed they got to go through her stuff and each boy got to pick what he wanted and harry picked the sapphire engagement ring and then gave it to William because he said,

Kate needs this. Like, she's going to be queen. I understand. Here, let me give it back. Like, he's continued to make sacrifices and make them like the ideal couple while he sat on the sidelines. Yeah. I mean, he was he was definitely instrumental in the popularity of that generation of royals. Right. When he he's the one who was really out there talking about mental health, generation of royals right when when he he's the one who was really out there talking about mental health his Invictus games were arguably one of the most successful royal ventures um that they've had in the modern era um he's so good at connecting with people I do think Megan's American-ness cannot be discounted in this equation and like Nick to your point like you know coming in and being like it's okay to talk about our feelings. That's something you can imagine an American

sort of being a disruptor to the stiff upper lip royal family. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. I think a lot was lost in the royal family's sort of inability to recognize that and say, like, this isn't how we do things, but maybe we can try some of this. And instead, it was like the doubling down of like, this is how we do things. This is how it's done. And I think it's a shame there couldn't have sort of been a better, you know, middle ground reach there. I also do want to circle back to this trauma, the trauma that informs so much of Harry's life and worldview. And it cannot be stressed enough that yes, he says it multiple times in the documentary. He said it to me in interviews, like I am my mother's son. And I think that feeling is absolutely true, that I must protect my wife because I wasn't able to protect my mother is a huge part of why they left.

And it could have been such a beautiful thing for the UK to embrace. And unfortunately, they've lost that opportunity. You know, they're seen as an archaic institution that's inclusive that's exclusive and this could have changed that and they let that opportunity go both when it comes to mental health when it comes to the press when it comes to race everything and they dropped the ball like this could have been such an amazing good change and it's quite depressing it was kind of interesting when they were talking about the, what do they call it? The Commonwealth?

The Commonwealth, yeah. And just how, who makes up the Commonwealth and the role Megan could have played and how much of an impact. And that really kind of hit home. Absolutely. And how Barbados has already said have Megan, we have Harry, and a lot of the people in the commonwealth, Willie, are embracing Megan in such a huge way. Is that something that the institution of the family or William or Kate would be like, hey, we want you to be important, but I don't know if we want

you to be that important. Do you think that played a significant role in some of the family drama? I would say, I think that rather than like, we want to keep you down so you don't overshadow us in that way, it would have been more that they didn't appreciate or recognize what they had. So I think, again, so much was lost. You know, when Megan and Harry went to South Africa and Megan told a group of young girls, you know, I am you and you are me, I thought it was one of the most powerful moments we've seen from this family in many, many years because no one else could say that. And then we know that when William and Kate did their Caribbean tour, it was, you know, roundly criticized for feeling out of touch for the fact that there was all this colonial iconography that they seemed to not realize.

They're recreating, like, let's say, when the Queen and Philip were here. But that was a bad look then and doing it now is an even worse look. So I don't, I think it wasn't so much like, we need to keep you in the corner. It was more like, we should recognize this is an amazing opportunity for our family to reflect the way the world looks today, to show inclusion, to show, you know, how much we've grown and we're evolving and all of that. And even, you know, when you, when we first saw, when the world saw, but that photo of Archie's, from Archie's, you know, christening and, and, and it's the queen, Prince Philip and Megan's mom, Doria, And it's the Queen, Prince Philip, and Meghan's mom, Doria, a Black American woman.

And then Meghan and Harry. I thought seeing that photo, well, this is the greatest royal photo of the modern era. Yeah. And the gospel choir at the wedding. Right? Something new. It's really beautiful. And that's gone now.

It's crazy stuff. I just have one last question, which is thinking about William and Kate, who seem to be pretty like depicted in this documentary as a very protected and polished members of the royal family. Have there been any instances of scandals or things that the media has picked up or criticized either of them for? So certainly not in the same way that we've seen with Meghan and Harry. There have been here

and there. They do seem to get pretty, like those little fires seem to get extinguished pretty quickly. And I think, you know, again, watching the docuseries, you see where they were able to like burn much wider and bigger than they ever have with William and Kate. You know, the flip side of that is William and Kate are, are locked down in terms of like, they're a fortress, right? There it's almost like nothing gets in or out with that couple. They don't do,

they don't do interviews in this way. Not at all. Not even close. I don't know that we ever will see them speaking about their marriage or I don't, I was thinking that like, it's impossible to imagine them showing their kids in their backyard, you know, with the chicken coop or what, like all of those scenes, you know, frolicking

on the beach. We just, they're in a completely sort of different realm than this couple. And as a result, I think there's a really different level of what comes, what we hear about them. And it's almost nothing. Yeah, I think they covered that in the documentary. So maybe there's been slightly controversial moments involving William and Kate, but we're never going to see them because they are protected by the machine. Whereas William, as well as Harry and Meghan are saying, where was our protection? Like, didn't he say something like we saw within a few hours, they were willing to lie for William, but in years they were never willing to tell the truth.

Oh yeah. When, when they had that joint statement that Harry was never a part of. And that's his, that's Harry's point of view. I mean, William, we haven't heard from William. Like, I don't think William would say it. I lied. Interesting. Michelle, thank you so much for your time.

This has been very insightful. We really, we really appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me. This is fun. I appreciate you having me on. Yeah, well, hopefully we'll have you back on in the future if the tea keeps spilling and we keep talking about it. Well, we've got the memoir and the coronation coming up. So lots to cover.

All right. Happy holidays. Thanks. You too. Bye. Take care. Interesting stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. After watching four, five, and six, I definitely had way more empathy for Harry harry and megan i thought it was really interesting i i assume i'm really curious after watching it one my first question was how much control did harry and megan have over how this was edited and and i think put out no i think all the control no isn't that the whole point of why they did it thought so but i also heard stuff about you know they there's certain things that like they didn't want netflix to air or show just because i thought it was really interesting that you know there was definitely a turn in four or five and six i feel like one two and three you know it was kind of i don't know they i think it

was just a very different kind of it was a turn you it was if i'm i feel like that was more netflix because it was from a storytelling standpoint there was such a like a there was like a build and it's like a real more sympathetic edit they came across way more likable yeah i think in four or five and six and they they did in one, two, and three. And I think a lot of the British press was saying it's a bit more like a reality show than a documentary. Oh, it's 100%. Which I think is what they were probably aiming for. Look, if the reason they made this

was to show their side of the story, and when you do that, it's in the hope of maybe making more people like you, then you need to be as vulnerable and as open as possible and I think where they slightly went wrong in my opinion is that they were very open in how they felt about the royal family which was a very controversial thing to do and has caused them a lot more problems with the UK public maybe or the press at least now but what I found missing a little bit was I don't know how to say it, like warmth.

When you watch them together, oh my God, they're so beautiful. I'm completely envious of their relationship. They're such a good team. They're everything you want to be in a marriage. I think that's kind of universally thought. They very much seem in love and have each other's backs. They very much are a team. And when he said, that's why I married you,

or he said, that's why I married, he didn't actually say you. And then she said, oh, because of, you know, pointing at like the Easter eggs and stuff. And he went, simplicity.

And that gave me goosebumps that moment. But the rest of the time, when I'm listening to her talking, there's a barrier. Like I'm such a mushy person. I can cry at, you know, commercials. I didn't cry at all when she was talking and I kind of wanted to, but there was a barrier, there was something

missing. And maybe that was her just trying to keep herself together, trying to stay composed. But I think it's counted against her a little bit because, you know, especially again with the British press, they can take it and run with it. And, oh, they're all calling her narcissistic now and so Californian. The moment they did that guided meditation on camera, I was like, oh, no. Like the UK are going to rip them to shreds for doing a meditation on camera. But you're right. I think like it seems like especially Megan is almost like that struggling with that juxtaposition of acting kind of stately or polished or, you know, royal. Right. And or just kind of being who she has always been or being her authentic self. empathize with not knowing how to act in that world because you know that you know once you

know that everything you do is going to be critiqued and picked apart then you know it's it's hard to be yourself i tell ellie and amanda all the time like when we're doing this show don't be careful don't read stuff because then you start editing yourself you start you know overthinking about and then you start thinking about should i say this or say that and you know overthinking about and then you start thinking about should i say this or say that and you know this is that times a million right and so i can see why she might be having a hard time but i also think to your point like it it was so i think in a way obvious because certain clips of when they would flash back to things i didn't see her being as edited and then the juxtaposition between seeing her again coordinating flights with harry and talking about american airlines so just herself versus cut to

her you know interview portion where it feels very when she's storytelling she seems like she's storytelling yeah and not necessarily opening up she also um she demonstrates her emotions no nowhere near to the level of Amber Heard on the stand. But you know like how she'll open her eyes really wide. So she kind of wants to demonstrate what she's feeling rather than just feeling it and trusting that we'll feel what she's feeling. Yeah, which is a totally relatable side. Absolutely. When there's a camera in your face and your whole future depends on it

in terms of how people treat you. I just think, yeah. I feel like their critics are almost like, it's like, I think they see someone like Harry especially and even Meghan to a certain extent. Because Harry was born into this and Meghan married into this. And this fame and fortune that can come with it

right and i think a lot of people stop there and think of it as like some you're gifted a superpower and the superpower is you can like whatever you do you're going to be rich from you know and i think there's this lack of empathy that comes comes with that And they're thinking, well, you chose to use this superpower to make a tell-all and make money. And I think people are very just, especially it seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, people in the UK are exceptionally critical of that

because they almost like see this role, again, it's servitude. It's just like, hey, in this role, you're serving a it's servitude it's just like hey in this role you're serving us not the other way around the british public pays for the royal family to exist right so um i wish i could remember there's a saying something like we pay you something i can't remember what it is but they have to i think it's a we pay you pose thank you we pay you pose. Thank you. We pay you pose. Exactly. We were coming, so you don't have to. But, you know, it's kind of like... No, but...

And then so this is another thing, like the British media in general, not just with the royal family, but with celebrities say, they feel like if you use the press, they own you. Kind of, yeah. And they'll build you up

to break you back down again. And it's... it the fact that they're so savage is it's so sad because like you know i try again this is it's not comparable but all i can do is just try to relate to my own experiences but yeah with with my peers and the things i've done there's i try to for me to be able to do what I do, I have to, I have to change my perspective, right? I have to, to a certain, I have to try to constantly tell myself it's not a big deal or not focus on what people say because again, I think it, it handcuffs me or makes me it makes me

inauthentic and just for my own mental health it's just like if if i was constantly focused i have to just try to dismiss it as much as possible you know with the press being what it is like is is are harry and megan even capable of just of ignoring it. Locking it out. Or not. And especially when they're basically being given death threats for themselves, for their children, because of their race, and then having their security taken away from them. That was wild. Imagine how scared they must have been. That would be scary.

And they were given, what was it, three weeks notice that they were losing their security? And then good old Tyler Perry swoops in and saves the day. Tyler Perry was definitely. Oh my gosh. He came off quite well. Didn't he? Godfather Tyler Perry swoops in and saves the day. Tyler Perry was definitely... Oh my gosh. He came off quite well. Didn't he? Godfather Tyler.

Didn't he? Really? Yeah. I've always really liked me some Tyler Perry. So cute. Now, Michelle Obama did an interview and gave a quote. What did she say? I thought it was really, really interesting.

Chloe, while she's looking that up, from the people in the UK, how many people in the UK are very like, I was there over the summer for the first time and talked to some people. Some of the people I talked to talked about how it's all about the queen. It's all about the royal family. How many people in the UK subscribe to that kind of mentality versus a more kind of progressive this is stupid this is like you know old fairy tale stuff currently 66 67 i think of the uk population still believe that the monarchy is worthwhile and want it to continue 67 that's pretty high number drops by more than half with

18 to 24 year olds sure so the younger generation i to be honest i don't think the younger generation really give a shit either way they're just like whatever yeah it doesn't mean anything um but yeah the older generation still believes that it's worthwhile and that it stands for something and i get it it's nice and you know like you said you were just there and you see buckingham palace and the changing of the guards and it's kind of beautiful and as we were saying earlier on very theatrical and it's a great tourism drive you know we a lot of tourists come to the country because of the royal family and i think it's going to change i think if the fact that 18 to whatever i said 24 year olds find it less important then i guess as the generations go on maybe it will start to disappear because

they don't really have any power they have influence but do they though this is now what we're realizing is it the press actually sure right but they seem to be the catalyst i mean i guess influence in the you know they do all these appearances and people do i mean they they yeah they have influence in terms of when they show up money right they're on the money yeah yeah like the queen their royal family is literally on the money of the country yes they're on the money so they definitely i mean they have influence they have seen not to everyone i'm just saying that like logistically like politically they don't have any influence no but i'm saying culturally culture and mean they are essentially all they are is just like a modern day

social media influencer to a certain extent with a lot more prestige I don't know about that kind of I don't but like we're saying I don't think people are that influenced by them

yeah I mean, yeah. Kate and Meghan definitely fashion-wise have had their moments. Fashion-wise, absolutely. Like they always say like the Kate effect or the Meghan effect, like things sell out instantly. But don't they have influence with their like power? Again, I don't know all the charitable things the royal family has done over the years, you know, or Harry and Meghan. But they certainly have the capability of invoking change. They have a huge platform and they can bring attention to something,

which again is why it's so frustrating that they didn't use Harry and Meghan in a positive way. Yeah. But, you know, so do you have Michelle's quote? Yeah, so Michelle Obama said, Public service, it's a bright, sharp, hot spotlight, and most people don't understand it, nor should they. The thing that I always keep in mind is that none of this is about us in public service. It's about the people that we serve. I always try to push the light back out and focus

it on the folks that we're actually here to serve. The thing that I hope for and the thing I think about is that this first and foremost is a family, and I pray for forgiveness and healing for them so they can use this as a teachable moment for us all. I thought that was just a really interesting quote from Michelle Obama. And then you had Tyler Perry on the documentary, and he was just kind of like, this is fucked up. There's more they could say. This is bullshit. She kept it classy.

She kept it classy. And I just think, you know, Michelleama and tyler perry for me both have a lot of like credibility you know when both of them speak i'm like okay all right i'm listening for both of them and i think it's interesting they both had very kind of different points of view and the fact that michelle obama was speaking more from a place of like public service as the former first lady of our country uh and kind of speaking in terms of the responsibilities that the royals, I guess, have to their people. I couldn't help but wonder if it was a bit of a critique

for Harry and Meghan to do this kind of documentary. Because Tyler, he's just a celebrity. And Michelle Obama is, again, like a public servant. Now, she's also a celebrity now. But I just think it was kind of interesting, the two points of view that they were bringing to the table. I don't know if one's right or wrong versus the other. I just think it's interesting from the point of view they're coming from i can only imagine that the obamas are thinking you know how much shit we've gone through i was you know the first black president and the first uh black first lady and the you know again i can only imagine the horrific things they must have to deal with as being in the positions they were and i can i wonder if they're thinking you don't think we would want to have told our story and we chose to stay and we chose to stay to not say anything you don't think we would have wanted to like get paid to do x y or z but we didn't and we you know and and and we don't expect people to understand or relate because

you can't relate to this experience and i think you have tyler perry human beings they still get to you know feelings i if i'm watching this i will say if i if i'm i wouldn't do anything different than harry and megan i would have not got paid well what i don't mean like yeah i mean i i i when i say different i mean up into the point of the making the documentary i would have felt how they felt i i i if i'm harry if i i would have been like this is fucked up you know what i'm saying like i why am i dealing with this bullshit if i met someone who was like megan and they treated her that way i would i would tell them to fuck off they're're in the perfect place. Right? I don't have any criticism for their frustrations of how they feel about the situation. And I believe their point of view. Me too.

Right? I didn't think anything they said was false. I believed everything that they said. Yeah, totally. But it did, them making this documentary tell-all, it did very much make me interested in the other side. Right. I am curious about the other point of view. Right. And well, also, they were doing what they said they didn't want to be doing anymore, which was spilling the tea, basically.

Yeah. They were saying, like, we want to be left alone, blah, blah, blah. And they went and spilt the tea on the royal family and got paid a lot of money for doing it see that's another thing if they'd have not got paid any money any money they'd have had maybe even slighter softer reaction to it yeah but now they're just considered money hungry grabbing looking for attention narcissistic californian blah blah it's just yeah and it's as hard to argue like hard to argue. You're not going to convince... They were never... And that was kind of my critique of the doing this series was they did a tell-all basically about their family feud. And while I empathize and I'm here for it and I've enjoyed watching it. Me too. And thank you very much.

You know, I've been fascinated by their approach because they do seem to be people who do want people to like them. They do care about their public image. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. But their execution, I still feel there was a better way. Yeah, they should have focused more on all the amazing things that they're doing. Because they don't have to talk bad about others for us to see the good that they're doing because without they don't have to talk bad about others for us to see the good that they're doing yeah why didn't they leave us to be in most intelligent enough

to just see their worth that's what i totally agree and yeah they they told us about it and they showed glimpses of some of the things they're doing i mean like no they why didn't they do a documentary about and and bringing awareness to this variety of causes they seem to be passionate about. And the focus is the charitable organizations. And then sprinkling glimpses of their relationship and their love. Oh, this is what drove us to do this. And their family. I would say that is the very cause that they're trying to bring attention to is media scrutiny

and the way that it is so bogus that it is completely purchasable. I would consider this an expose and more of... Beyond the royal family, it's talking about the way that media operates. It's talking about the role of money in media, both in the way that it can tear apart families as we saw with Meghan and her

father and how that turned into a huge circus. And also with William and the dynamics that exist that allow certain people to have this amazing narrative. I think the very point of this documentary was for Megan to say, I am this very powerful, competent, capable person. And I had thoughts of taking my own life because of the way I was treated in media and talking about online trolls. And to me, that was one of the most resounding takeaways was like, please be mindful that as she kind of said to herself, I am a mother, I am a person. And it's one thing when

everyone's spouting garbage on the internet and you see that's written down. It's another thing when you actually meet someone who is taking in all of those beliefs as true facts. And so to me, I thought that was the point of the documentary. It was like the media circus of it all. Sure. But I just don't we think that like, unfortunately for them, it wasn't going to resonate with everyone because they got paid and because they were spilling to you. And because they used the media.

And it's just a lot of like tit for tat, so to speak. When they when she said about how she went to that public engagement and somebody said to her you know a civilian said to her what you're doing to your father is wrong and she realized for the first time oh wow you believe it i thought nobody believed the tabloids but you actually believe it that was a really heartbreaking moment actually um but then this little voice on my shoulder goes did you not know anything about princess diana like she does say a few times i was so naive i had no idea if you're of a certain age you know the diana story and especially i'm sorry who goes on a date without googling the person you're going on a date

i had a hard time totally buying her naiveness she she megan comes across as an incredibly intelligent and capable person and if anything i think she gets unfairly criticized for you know her intelligence for you know you know emotional intelligence yeah because i think you know people will often criticize those people of being strategic or you know kind of calculated and and disingenuous and things like that and so and i think that's unfair criticism for people like that but it's just hard for me to buy when someone like megan who i see is in a highly intelligent capable kind of i think she seems like the alpha in this relationship which is i think is another reason why she gets criticized because i think there's a lot of people especially it seems

like the people who are royal family fans and the brits who don't like their prince seem to be the you know the beta in this relationship. And, you know, it is what it is. It works in their relationship. And like, he likes a strong, powerful woman. I think that, but I think a lot of people, a lot of their critics don't like that. Yeah. In the documentary though,

I didn't see her leading him in any way. I saw them supporting each other. I think he came across so well. I was so impressed with him. You know, like I've grown impressed with him. You know, like I've grown up with him. We're not that far apart in age. And I've spent time with him in public as a teenager. And, you know, he was always a little bit different from the rest. And because he is the, and I can't believe we're all saying this now, but the spare,

you know, he was allowed a little bit more freedom. And, you know, he was allowed it, allowed a little bit more freedom and, you know, I, I've been at parties with him and he's a really nice, normal, regular guy. And I think that's wonderful and refreshing. And like Michelle was saying earlier, because of the trauma of his mother, I think it's made him a more emotionally intelligent person. Like, I don't want to speak about the British population as a whole, but I've lived here in LA for 12 years. I've changed so much since I've lived here in terms of my emotional intelligence. We are absolutely made to feel that big emotions are wrong.

They're embarrassing that you should keep the stiff upper lip. It's all true. Like the cliches are true. You know, you're, you're told don't cry, don't cry. You know, whereas here I feel like you're encouraged. Oh yes. Let your feelings out, cry, you know? So we are taught to be very stiff and proper. And I feel like she was just bringing that to him and, and he already had it in him from the loss of his mother. And it could have been so beautiful for them to show this next generation of Brits, it's okay. It's okay to feel.

Any feelings you have are okay and you can express them. And it's okay to be kind to each other. Yeah. And to try and, you know, shift that because the press is going to do what the press is going to do, but you don't have to buy it. You don't have to buy the magazines. But, you know, evil and hate is clickbait you know it sells more than negativity is way more click but it's so it's so hurtful a lot of um in the uk a lot of tv like reality show stars that were just

regular joes before they went on the reality show they suffer so badly afterwards because of how they're treated in the present because they don't know what to expect yeah yeah and from that standpoint like i i love that they brought awareness to that yeah i just they did it's like it seems like they underestimated like i don't know and i don't know maybe i don't know what i don't know what harry and megan's goal was for doing this. No, exactly. Like maybe they totally, maybe they were thinking, we just want to activate our supporters. We want the people who want to support us to hear us out.

And maybe the people who don't know much about us to also, you know, understand us more. But maybe they were never trying to convince the opinions of the people who are already their critics right which i think is what's happened i feel like people that were emotionally intelligent enough to understand their their frame of mind are still that way since the documentary and the people that we're gonna hate are still gonna hate in fact they're gonna double down on it by calling them you know out for being but it seemed like they were trying to change the minds of their critics and i just feel like that was never going never it was never going to happen but what really surprised me watching it and actually i think this is like the first few episodes was how close she used to be with her dad right because all we know now is how they don't talk to each other anymore

and so i was so surprised when I saw I assumed that maybe they were slightly estranged before or something but they were really really really close yeah they were closer than I realized I thought yeah maybe it was just kind of never a great relationship and now right that she became who she is right it was just like of course the the father who was never part of my life is mouthing off. That's what I felt like with the sister, which was what it was with the sister. She wasn't really ever a huge part of her life. But also I was surprised that I assumed by him selling his stories and all those kind of things that maybe he wasn't very savvy, right?

But he's in the entertainment industry. He works in Hollywood. I mean, he's a set designer, but you're in the you're in the industry you can't be that naive but i also feel like that example of specifically her letter was a perfect like i feel like she got set up by the royal family but that's the thing i think it's a perfect example of probably what she went through every day because you're completely stuck it was due to their encouragement to write the letter that she sent it. And then the press gets it and she turns back to, again, the Queen, Charles, William, what do we do?

And that was pretty fucked up, how they redacted stuff. I mean, you can change the entire contents of a letter. Yeah, but I just think it's awful that they basically encouraged her to send this and then when it backfires, they're like, whoops, not sure.

You're on your own. She literally came to them and said, what do I do? Why would you ever suggest in this day and age a physical piece of paper? Yeah, why did it doesn't. And also, why didn't the royal family get that letter back off the Daily Mail and not let them print it? They have the power, apparently, because they hide stuff about William or whoever else as they were saying. So why did they let them go ahead and print

it other than if they wanted her to look bad? I believe all of it for sure. I also think that part of the documentary when she was like, what do I do? Write a letter where the return address is Kensington Palace spoke to some of the logistical things that it's like, sure, we can all say on an

intellectual level, like, yeah, she has very limited options as a royal. I don't know that we've actually all thought through the everyday aspects of communication in life that are truly cut off to her. Like, I thought that was just like a little moment of being like, wow, you really are, despite having all of this like immense power and visibility, like so bound in terms of like what you can do and like how you can communicate with people outside of this structure. Even the fact that she couldn't seek help or go to therapy or, you know, go anywhere because they didn't want that to reflect badly on the family. That was something that I wish they talked about more. I remember feeling afterwards well has she gotten therapy because like i do my therapy sessions on zoom you know if it was if

right and the therapist isn't allowed to tell anybody that they see you so if they didn't let her go somewhere like has she gotten help like if it was about her physically going to a building to stay and so the press would see that she was there and they which again shouldn't be a problem anyway but did she speak to anybody yeah i wonder if she's doing it now right like we didn't get to really send her a better help code or yes they're doing a guided meditation in the morning right She's got to be in therapy. But as far as the stuff with like, you know, back to like, you know, her family, I wish for their sake they would have gone about it a different way because, you know, we're here and it seems like everyone in this room really understands and empathizes with their point of view. But it doesn't seem to have softened any of the criticism coming their way. In fact, it seems to have ignited like an entire half of nation, 60%, 67% of a nation.

And even a lot of Americans, it's not resonating with them. And then I saw a clip of like her brother, I think he was on Piers Morgan or or some shit like that and not that i agree with anything he's saying but he was just you know her brother's interview was just like this is a completely one side of the story there's so many lies and etc etc i i found myself and he's just like we're coming out with their own tell-all like they're coming out with her and i heard i i heard megan's and then we'll get another one from harry and megan no i also heard that her ex-husband's writing a book of course but that's kind of what i'm saying what did they expect right you know did harry and megan expect they could do this very visible and kind of everyone was going to watch and talk about it get paid the final and that would be the final conversation there's no way you could be that naive it's as terrible as her dad's family might be i mean i can i can understand

like you know natalie natalie's my girlfriend very team megan like she doesn't even want to hear it she's just like you know so like i was pissing her off while watching it because i was just like well what about this yeah i was just like considering other points of view and listen like i don't know what her family is like but could you imagine having your entire family basically be painted as this shitty horrible family that are a bunch of losers and her brother in this interview did say we we knew, like, we truly knew nothing about this family and we weren't given any kind of guidance in how to handle things or behave. And yeah, maybe her dad should have known better

and he's got access to Hollywood. But like, I don't know, as crazy as this family seems, the royal family in the press and how they act, we don't want to offer, like, Megan's dad's side of the family any grace at all. And it's just kind of like, if I'm them, I would be frustrated too. And I am curious about their point of view.

But they're speaking at their daughter's expense. Totally. I'm not agreeing with them. Imagine if your mom or your dad was like, let me tell you more. Do you think he's bad enough? I totally get it. I just like i on a human side i'm not surprised that they are wanting to defend themselves is what i guess what i'm saying not that i agree with them i just i understand why they are doing this megan's ex-husband said

that she made him feel like a piece of something stuck to the bottom of her shoe. Oh, gosh. Wow. See? I mean, that's a strong statement. And Meghan's former friend, who was the maid of honor at their wedding, said that she didn't want to associate herself with Meghan after how she handled the divorce. Wow. People are getting their quotes.

Like, did Harry and Meghan really expect it to end here? Because to me, i watched this documentary then i'm on tiktok and i see her brother's interview and i see how her her ex-husband's coming out the tell-all and i'm thinking yeah this is just getting messier and messier and this this netflix documentary is just like one more piece in this again like modern modern day Shakespearean drama. And they'd already done Oprah, you know? And activity breeds activity. Yeah, every time they come out and say something, other people are going to double back down.

There's a positive equal reaction. So their lifestyle in that last half hour or even in some of the last few episodes, doesn't their lifestyle here in California just look so idyllic and beautiful and wonderful yeah so just cherish it yeah cherish it and don't don't keep putting yourself out there for this to them when i was watching it and they were focusing on their relationship i was sucked in and totally is just like they seem wonderful and be friends they seem like delightful people

and yes their relationship seems healthy. And like, wow, good for them. I was all in. And then when they were talking shit about family, whether I believe them or not, it just, I had a different feeling. You know, it was more of a, yeah, I hear you. But I don't think this is going to play out

the way you want, kind of, you know. And I've learned that tough lesson the hard way many times. And I've seen these comments on the internet too. It's like they have the right to be heard. And of course, yes, you do. They shouldn't be silenced. That doesn't mean like it's just even if I want to be heard all the time, but like Michelle Obama saying, I'm sure she would love to be heard at times. Sometimes we just have to make that tough choice of is it worth it? And what's going to be the reaction to me being heard? Is it going to want

to make other people be heard too? And then who has the right to get the last word in? There's no real clear answer. And now this has just become a story of you know is it is it who threw the first stone is that the debate you know like when it comes to her dad or is it when we decide who's right or wrong is it well you started it you started you started first and now you know whatever happened however this family feud between megan her dad started do you think megan's family is really like thinking, well, we... I'd be willing to bet that their version of the story is,

we're stupid Americans who didn't know anything about the royal family. We made some... Yeah, we fucked up. We made some mistakes, but you eviscerated our family. But she didn't. But she didn't. I don't know. You don't think that's i mean don't you don't

you don't think that was clear because look at her mom yeah exactly her and her mom have a perfect relationship her mom was under the same amount of scrutiny the same amount of like if not more making out that she was from the ghetto in los angeles totally i'm i'm no i No, but Megan hasn't criticized her mom at all. Megan has criticized her dad. Wait, has she? In this documentary? Yeah, but only in response. If we're talking about who threw the first stone,

it's only in response to him telling media stories. I don't know if she's criticized her father, though. I don't think so, either. I think if we went back and really looked at her quotes, I don't... She's criticized her family we went back and really looked at her quotes, I don't... She's criticized her family. Her dad's side of the family. Do you remember specific verbiage of her doing that?

She was talking about how, obviously, with her mom being black and how the press tried to paint them this horrible picture and all these racist remarks. And then she said, it was almost like, ironically, my mom's side of the family is just kind of these racist remarks. And then she said, you know, it was almost like, ironically, my mom's side of the family is just kind of these wonderful people. It's my dad's side of the family that's just kind of this messy, you know.

I mean, that's a quote from the documentary. I just feel like a lot of what she's talked about with her dad and whatever, she never flat out said, you know, I can't, like, i can't stand him i can't blah blah but i just felt that she was hot part yeah to me it seemed much more observational than attacking yeah well that one i mean if i'm her family that she did say that yeah and while i i agree and her family doesn't sound pleasant i mean i again if i'm harry and megan i would i i empathize with them way more

than i empathize with her family i just i'm not surprised that her family isn't seeing it this way i'm so glad her niece came back into the i know i wasn't in the timeline that was a cute way to wrap it up because we started with that at the beginning of them being like torn apart by all of this and not being able to attend the wedding. And then she shows up at the house. And how understanding was she when she was told, look, these are the reasons why. But again, it comes down to aesthetics. And doesn't that make you mad?

Like, no, you can't go and get mental health care. No, you can't have your favorite family member come to the wedding because of how it might look on the outside. I guess that's kind of what it's all about isn't it that's basically what this whole thing's been about is the aesthetic and yeah protocol and it just yeah it's just yeah i i think you and i agree on the sense that like it's snoring really loudly is that him snoring yeah it sounds like it sounds like i've got like a squeaky belly or something that's hysterical i think uh if we if we were like their PR team or if we were them,

we would like to think, and who knows, because we don't know how would, we can't actually relate. We don't know what we would do in their shoes. No, but we have an understanding of how this thing works. I would like to think that it's like I would have wanted to know what my other options were. How can I leverage this platform? How can I get my bag and make my money?

And how can I feel like I could be heard over time without maybe doing this? Dissing the royal family. Yeah. And it's not that they don't have a right and it's not that they're not wrong and it's not that I don't believe them. It just comes down to,

listen, every time, again, we talk about the best all the time. And every time we have someone come on and do their tell all, tell their side of the story, it's always, and I tell all my guests, it's like, listen, I want you to tell your side of the story. I want to humanize you. I want people to really understand who you are. And I think a lot of people are going to empathize with you. And I think they're going to hear you, but you're not going to win everyone over. And I need, I want to set that expectation with you that it's, you know, this is the downside of, of doing these things. And, you know, I'm just really curious. It seems I'm really wondering if Megan and Harry just didn't give a shit uh and knew that or they

i would i want to i would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation if it happened when they were like considering the pros and cons and the cons of doing this like what was their reasoning to still go forward and do this and i'm i would just kind of be fascinated by that yeah me too do you know what else i really want to know? What's that? What William texts them when they were on Skype with Tyler Perry. Right? They were on FaceTime or whatever with Tyler, and he goes, oh, wait, wait, wait. Harry's brother's texting. And then they hung up, and then we never saw what it was.

It didn't seem adversarial almost. No. It almost seemed like, what are we? Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah, it was like a yeah what do you think you know was it in response was it when they just found out they'd won the the kind of you know defamation case whatever with the mail or they weren't going to go to trial or whatever was it just after that i think

it was after the oprah interview because harry called to say you know oh i see they've released a statement but i haven't clicked on it yet. Then they read the statement together. That's right. And then the text came in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that statement was nice. Mish?

Yeah. Sid. It's so loud. ASMR from Sid. Oh, now he's gone quiet. I think it's just that's the thing. It hasn't been wrapped up and it's probably to be continued right like i know they felt they had a conclusion but it's still like

well we're waiting for the other shoe to drop yeah and again i i'm just as someone who went into this kind of hey i know my audience is gonna be interested in it. This is so big that the average person is going to tune in. I'm very invested. And if her family comes out with a tell-all, if her... I don't know if I'll read her ex-husband's memoir, that's for sure, but I'll definitely be like,

what did he say? I'm going to be curious. Get some spark notes. So basically what we're saying is the documentary has left us still wondering, we still don't really know who she is. I just think it was more fuel to the fire. It was this,

it was this, I think what it did is really, I think this blew this up and it's only creating more fascination. And now you have, and again, it's a very polarizing topic. You know, there's so many like layers. There's, you know, you have conversations and again, it's a very polarizing topic. You know, there's so many like layers.

There's, you know, you have conversations about racism and race. You have conversations about just people who are just like more progressive versus institutional people. And like a lot of people like their traditions and they like, you know, and I think there's a lot of value in traditions as well. And then other people are just like, you know, change is always good. Don't let the past kind of like hold you down for the future. And there's a lot of, you know, elements of people who, you know, like want their second chance. People, elements of people who have set up boundaries with their family and who've been like, I don't want you a part of my life, even though your family and other people who

have a very strong argument of like, hey, family is messy. Family fucks up, but they're family and you try to make it work. And you should always look for some type of reconciliation. So there's elements of that and people being taking sides based off of that. So it's a very fascinating kind of story that I think really connects with a lot of people. I think on a way for my girlfriend, Natalie, connects with a lot of people. I think on a way for my girlfriend, Natalie, I think she, if I had to guess, she didn't say this, but like she started dating me and kind of got inundated to this crazy bachelor nation world that on a very much smaller scale, I think she can relate to Megan Markle, who is this like, she has people who's decided to like have opinions about Natalie, decide who she is.

And like, well, it's not like a mainstream press or anything like that. But like it's all relative on that level. When you are dealing with this stuff, like there's no, you know, no one gets to say what's worse and what's more or you don't get to feel this way. And so I think, you know, people relate to the people are relating to Megan for people who felt like they kind of, of you know joined something where they felt like an outsider and weren't welcomed you know and where they just for people that had their power taken away from them yeah and they want to get it back yeah so it's it's fascinating just the sides people are jumping on and how ultimately they're just kind of relating to you know the the side that you know i guess they relate to the most but clearly it's like hey they knew this was happening or they knew they were

going to produce something because the more i kept watching i was like we have photos and videos of everything they've been prepping for this for years we have professional photos of them moving out of their home like where are these coming from like everything was captured yeah and i guess for the i think that gives their critics kind of ammunition yeah so like it's because it's so planned out and we want everything to be off the cuff and real and raw yeah and it's like they're and i think their critics you know the people who are very much you know the institution this is a there's a role of servitude. It's this, and I've seen this where it's like Meghan and Harry almost wanted to be celebrities and almost

reality TV stars rather than the roles and responsibilities and the, you know, the greater good, like something that believing in something that's greater than themselves, that I'm guessing William and Kate believe that they're doing or or that his grandmother believed that she was doing? In terms of serving the monarchy. Yes. Not in terms, because they're out there wanting to save the world, right? They have a voice and they have a cause. Yeah, but they want to do it their way.

Right. Fair enough. And here's the thing. It's not like they said, oh, we're staying in the royal family want to be this way they've stepped down yeah you know i i don't give a shit yeah i just think it's i can see the p why the people who care about that type of stuff hate what hate what they're seeing and also you know like straight away she came in and she's an actress and that puts everybody off straight away she you know it was it was always going to be difficult for her to be accepted for many reasons and like we said although to be fair kate she was kind of

a normal girl too was she yeah like they met at school. Her parents run a, like a party planning. Yeah. She was a kind of, and it's true, the press didn't sacrifice her. I think the most controversial thing I can remember ever coming out about Kate was a picture of her when, you know, low rise jeans were in and she was wearing low rise jeans and a crop top in a school fashion show. Oh, I think that was as racy as it got. We're going to have to talk about the lingerie dress she wore in the fashion show. Oh yeah, and that cat as well. Yeah, yeah.

Remember how most controversial she got? That was the night where William was like, hello. Okay. I mean, this is how much I didn't wasn't in awe of the royals because we were watching the documentary and I had this, in their show The Wedding, wasn't like in awe of the Royals because we were watching the documentary and I had this like, in their show, The Wedding, I was like, they had Idris Elba DJ their wedding?

That's what kind of got me. I was really excited about that. Not so much that like, that they were going, she was going to be a princess. Like, but it is so surreal. Like, I thought it was really cool they had Idris Elba DJ their wedding. Yeah, and it was so surreal like i thought it was really cool they had idris elba yeah and it was so cute that her mom was just like at the front fangirling over elton john yeah it did make

it to me that was cool it wasn't so much that like yeah that she was part of the royal family but it is such a surreal world that she jumped into i mean the whole thing is a literal fairy tale. Like you have this family basically playing dress up as like a fairy tale family that we read about in literal fairy tales. And there's movies about like the kings and queens. And they're just playing. It's cosplay in modern times. Essentially. Let's leave it at that. All right.

It's time for texting office hours. How's it going? Hi, I'm good. How are you? Good. What's your name? Hi, I'm Lily. So I am here today to talk about how to get over my brother's best friend after he dumped me and broke my heart. Okay. How old are you, Lily? I'm 22. Tell us about your ex, your brother's best friend. Tell us, give us the tea, what's going on. Okay. So I've known him since I was about 14 years old. He's been, he's like my brother's college roommate, everything like that. And he was always at my family functions. Everybody knows him. So when I turned

21, I started to go out to the bars with them. My friends would go out with his friends and I had a crush on him. And over time, he would message me on different apps and all that stuff. We eventually hooked up and then it was a bunch of drama because my brother found out. So your brother wasn't excited about it first happening no not at all not at all he was not happy um who did he blame more you or his friend he blamed his friend more he his friend which i mean i knew this i guess going into it was very much like a fuck boy. And so he was very upset. He was upset at me too. So basically after that, everyone knew my business. My brother told everybody, told my whole entire family, told every person that he could think of. And so for a while,

it was a big drama within my family. Even things that my family had said to me was very hurtful. And so he, the best friend and I started actually dating after that. And we dated, I want to say, seven months or so. And we broke up at the end of September. So since then, we have kind of had some communication. Actually, when I wrote into you last week, there has been more drama that has even happened since then. When I originally wrote into you, I was thinking, should I continue to talk to him? Should I not? But as of yesterday, there has been even more things. And now I just need to know how to move on from somebody that is like what happened so a couple weeks ago he reached out to me and I think it was kind of because he

knew I was dating somebody else where we're from is this town where there's a city in the middle where everybody moves to when they're in their 20s that's where they go out everyone knows everyone so anytime that I would go out people would come up to me saying things about him whatever so one time I was out and I was actually on a date at a bar and he was at the same bar and he saw me there and then I saw him two more times out when I was with my friends so he like reached out to me and then we started seeing each other again. He ended the relationship initially? He did. And what was his reasons? He said it's because I did not trust him,

and he thought it was because I knew too much of his past. And that's why I didn't trust him. And that's why he ended the relationship? Yeah, and he said it was because we were arguing about stuff because I didn't trust him. What did you think about that? I mean, I think I did not trust him, but I wouldn't say it was because I knew't trust him. What did you think about that? I mean, I think I did not trust him, but I wouldn't say it's because I knew his past.

I would say it was because of the way that he behaved in our relationship. Fair enough, okay. But at least you agree that the fact that you didn't trust him. Yeah, exactly. So this past, or it was a week ago, he went to a football game, and he asked me to pick him up from the bar.

And I live like 10 minutes from the bar. This past week? Like last week, yeah. Why? Why did he ask you to pick him up from the bar. And I live like 10 minutes from the bar. This past week? Like last week, yeah. Why? Why did he ask you to pick him up? I guess because he was just drunk. You've been broken up since September? Yeah, but we were back in communication.

As friends? Were you guys hooking up? Yeah. You were hooking up. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Why?

Why? Why hooking up? Yeah, why did you, forget about his reasoning at this point, I'm more curious about your choices in this. Why did you choose to start hanging out with a guy that you admitted that you don't trust? And also, even though I know you were heartbroken over it, but like when he ended it, like how did you feel about being in a relationship with someone that you have no problem say you don't trust based off of his actions in the relationship i think i just wanted to believe that it was going to change which is i know stupid but i mean at least it's an honest answer yeah but so I ended up picking him up from the bar and he, well,

obviously he had been drinking, so I didn't really like entertain the conversation of what he was saying to me, but he just like kept saying that he was still in love with me and that he can't move on and he can't like, he's just like so upset and all this stuff. And then come to find out out he went to the football game with a girl and i picked him up from him ditching this girl how did it make you feel

when he was telling you that he still loved you it made me feel good but not good at the same time it's i don't i don't really know i was confused confused, I think. That makes sense. I mean, listen, if someone you care about or cared about, and you care about them still, which is normal, and says that to you, it's validating. If nothing else, it's validating. Yeah. And that feels good.

And especially if it's someone that you have high hopes for. And you've had high hopes for him. You have hoped that he would probably be a better partner and you probably had hoped that he would act in a way that made it easy to trust him. And so that feels good. But the part that didn't feel good is probably your gut telling you that something is off.

Like my guess is the part that felt good was the validating part of it all that he still cared and even though he was at a game with another girl that you still mattered and that it was real in the first place and that was yeah that was real it like kind of we always had that fear of like did nothing matter and things like that when relationships end so that part made you feel good but the part that didn't feel good is the fact my guess is the fact that you knew that you can't trust him and that you probably can't have a relationship with him. Yeah. And then even after that, so I, I still continue to talk to him

after that and why I no longer have responded to anything he has said in the past couple of days is because he had told, when I found out, he didn't tell me that he went with that girl. I found out, like I said, everyone knows everybody that girl. I found out. Like I said, everyone knows everybody's business, where I'm from. So it was very easy to find that information out. And so I confronted him about it. And he was just basically telling me he's not seeing this girl. They've gone out. Whatever.

He doesn't like her. He doesn't care about her. Whatever. gone out whatever he doesn't like her he doesn't care about her whatever and so then this past weekend um i actually met that girl's roommates at the bar and they knew exactly who i was and they came up to me and were like saying things about him and i guess everyone thinks that those two are dating so well they probably are yeah they went to a game together yeah i mean dating you know like nowadays in 2022 dating are they dating are they Yeah. They went to a game together. Yeah. I mean, dating, you know, like nowadays in 2022 dating,

are they dating? Are they boyfriend and girlfriend? Are they hooking up? Are they a thing? Are they a thing? They probably went on a couple of days. Is it a situation ship? Yeah.

Yeah. Definitely. That's for sure. And so then I, I told him that, and then I was like, look, like,

leave me out of it. If you're with her, I don't want to be talking to you. And then he's tried to call me. He's tried to text me and everything. I just have never said a thing to him. As I see it, that's your problem right now, mentally, is that if you're with her, I don't want to talk to you. Yeah.

And it's the fact that you need to get to a place where you just don't want to talk to them, regardless of the conditions, you know, more like, you know, and as opposed to oversimplifying it, if you're with her, I don't want to talk to you. If nothing else, it should be, well, until you become the person I need you to be, or until you treat me X, Y, or Z way, or until I can know I trust you, I don't want to be a part of your life. You know, as opposed to until you pick me over someone else, then it becomes, you know, that mentality, you're kind of, you're, you make yourself vulnerable kind of to your ego of, cause then he can, you know, it gives him the window to at any moment when he wants to pick you, like when he's like drunk at any moment when he wants to pick you like when

he's like drunk after a game he wants to ditch someone he's thinking he's doing you a favor yeah it's like oh but i picked you you know i'm not talking to her you know guess what she sucks aren't you lucky here i am i picked you i'm all yours you know yeah and you kind of set yourself up to to to perpetuate this because almost certainly he's going to do that because you actually literally told him to do that to like look you up when he's when he's bored essentially you've allowed him to yeah you've you've told him to do that per se yeah so i want to get you in a place where you're more thinking about how he was or how he is as a partner i think like i'm i'm already kind of at that place where i just don't really want to talk to him anyways it's just because i don't i feel like i felt that way

not even just this with with this particular girl but it's just like anything else that's more important at the time it's just like to else that's more important at the time. It just like, to me, I'm like, it's never, I'm not the first priority ever. Does your brother have an opinion? Yeah. Um, my, the whole situation though with my brother, it's, um, he, he doesn't like the guy anymore, but it's also like, my brother was not very nice to me throughout the whole situation. Yeah. I was going to say, you're kind of your brother. That was really kind of shitty for him to air your laundry.

And I don't know what your family said to you, but like more specifically, it wasn't his business to like out you and what you've been doing. You know? Yeah. That was kind of shitty of him. Yeah. The whole,

that's the other whole like thing with my ex-boyfriend. It's like the whole situation was really shitty and like everything that my brother or my parents or anybody had said to me was really shitty. And so my boyfriend at the time was like very on my side, very like defensive of me. And then now he and I actually even had a conversation about all that a few weeks ago. And it's like he even now is saying how he can't believe people would be like, so hurtful towards me. And then he is being hurtful. And he said hurtful things to me after I found out about that girl,

he was texting me like nasty stuff. So it's like, you say that it's like terrible that people would be mean to me, but then you're doing that as well. And it's just because he feels he is, he's using his pain to justify what he's saying or his frustrations or you know he's trying to make you the monster so he can be a good guy everyone's the hero in their own story kind of thing yeah and so it's easy for him to have your back when you had a common interest and that

common interest was your family was also against him so like it wasn't that hard to like have your back when you had a common interest and that common interest was your family was also against him so like it wasn't that hard to like have your back because he was serving himself as much as he was serving you in that moment yeah now you guys are more at at odds with each other and so he's he's not even capable of seeing that which is you should recognize this that is you know people are capable it's few and far between find people with that kind of emotional maturity who can say you know what i recognize that i need to step up here and and and you know they have to be ready and they have to want to right yeah and yeah he's what 26 yeah he's 26 going on you know 21 kind of thing you know yeah yeah yeah he's definitely and you know when you broke up with you he and that those are the things you

really have to like you know essentially i mean yeah it sounds like first you wrote in kind of wondering if it's ever okay to get back with an ex and it sounds like listen there's exceptions every rule you know how i feel about getting back with an ex like i don't normally recommend it there's there's usually a reason why relationships end you know and it's just much easier when we were missing those people to fantasize about the good and ignore the bad you know yeah people can mature and change over time but change usually happens over time, you know, not a couple weeks, you know. And in that time, you're going to find somebody that treats you wonderfully. Yeah.

Yeah. So you just have to try to, I think you need to, how are you going to cut them off? Because right now you're still very much, I think you're enjoying the drama more than you let on a little bit. I don't think you're doing everything you can to remove yourself from anything that's related to him in this drama. Yeah, I guess I haven't really completely removed myself. I haven't responded to anything he said or anything like that. That's good.

But is that like right now or is that like because you're upset right now? Is that like you kind of, and I don't know the answer. But is that you just, you know, are you playing games with yourself and him at the same time? Or are you truly done kind of thing? And you have to kind of answer yourself that question. Because like, sometimes like, well, I'm not responding, I'm done. And then a week goes by. And then you start like, reass and then it's just, well, I'm less mad now. And, you know, and things like that. Yeah. I, I want to be done as a thing. And like the issue is because before I kind of said that to myself too, cause there was a time when it, so about a month ago we had been talking and then I decided I didn't want to talk to him anymore.

And I told him that. And then we started talking again and it's like, I, I want to be done. And that's the problem. It's like, I don't know how to just like completely like just stop and like move on and like leave it behind me. Yeah. It's a lot of self-policing and it's a lot of holding yourself accountable and setting certain boundaries for yourself and then enforcing them. And then in moments of loneliness or boredom, when he pops in to just say no to yourself, it's like you're not really saying no to him as much as you're saying no to you giving in to knowing that in that moment, talking to him would feel nice or hooking up with him would be nice. And just

wanting that comfort would feel nice and not giving into those feelings. It's like I use it now, it's like a candy fix or just any type of addiction that you have. There's a bit of an addiction you have to him and the feeling he can bring you. He knows you very well. He's probably good at getting you out of bad moods and that same type of kind of energy he's using to you know kind of get you back at his convenience and so you just have to really state like i think almost out loud yourself i do not want to get back together with him i and and then and then it's recognizing i think sometimes people in this situation it's just like they, they go too far by saying, well, they're a piece of shit. I hate them. They're horrible. I don't want to get back together with them. And that's not really the truth. The truth is, you care about him. He has a lot of great qualities. There are parts about him you're definitely going to miss. There are other parts about him that you've realized you don't want in a relationship. There are other parts about him that you've realized you don't want a relationship and that ultimately him as a whole and who he is as a person today is not an ideal partner for you.

And seeing that more honestly. So that way, when he comes back, you're not like, well, I guess he's not that bad. Maybe I should give him a second chance and things like that. You've already kind of accepted that conversation with yourself. Like he isn't that bad. And he does. And he has the ability to make me happy, and he does have the ability to make me feel good. But I have accepted and decided that overall, who he is as a person is not something I want in my life. And every time than these kind of extremes of he's horrible. He sucks. He's been hanging out with this girl or he's sorry. And now, you know, he wants to make me happy because the person you want, it sounds like, and the person you always hoped he could be, he is not going, he's not, that's not who he is now. And he is not going to be anytime soon. That's not who he is now, and he is not going to be anytime soon. Yeah.

Maybe 10 years from now. Maybe after some very traumatic experience of some other heartbreak. Some heartbreak of his own. Maybe some therapy. I don't know. But none of this is going to happen the with yourself and confuse yourself by being like, well, he seems nice today and he seems really apologetic and he's saying all the right things. He's clearly capable of saying the right things and he's clearly capable of charming you and he's clearly capable of making you happy. But that doesn't mean he should be your partner. Yeah, I agree.

But that doesn't mean he should be your partner. Yeah, I agree. And in terms of practicalities, like you were saying, where you can become addicted to a person like you were to sugar or whatever, I find helpful for me in those situations where you are jonesing for that person, it's better to cut off all contact for like a good 30 days, let's say at least, maybe more. Because that way you can remove yourself when you're still seeing them or picking them up from bars late at night it's so much easier to get dragged back into it you need to just separate and then maybe one day you can be friends yeah i would i would if you i would block

him if you can okay and listen depending on how he reacts again this is not to get a reaction from him this is for you for your mental health yeah depending on how you reacts, and again, this is not to get a reaction from him. This is for your mental health. Yeah. Depending on how you want, you can say, hey, listen, I'm going to do this because I really want to move on. If you don't think he's going to respect the fact that you've, have you asked him not to reach out to you? I just have not responded to anything that he's said. Because when I had those conversations with those girls, it was on Saturday. So since Sunday or since Saturday,

he's called me like twice. He's texted me like three times and I just have not. Yeah. Right now you're very much in the, you're really mad for what he did kind of state, but that's going to die down. And when that dies down, you have to still be willing to not want to talk to him. Yeah. And get that feeling from people who you love and who love you and surround yourself with those people. Yeah. And also, there's a party that's not talking to him because you're mad at him,

not because you don't want to talk to him anymore. You really moved on. And you want him to know that you're mad at him and you want him to know that you're not returning his calls. And you have to get rid of that feeling too. You have to just not want to talk to him and not worry about how he's reacting to just not want to talk to him and not worry about well how he's reacting to you not wanting to talk to him yeah i know i just don't

know how to feel that like how to switch the feeling well like it takes time but separation separation i've been through it i can't even tell you how many times i've had my heart broken um yeah you really have to separate and most importantly keep talking like it's really great what you've done today you've called nick you know and i think um journaling or talking gets it out of your body are you feeling like a lot of anxiety like a lot of anxious energy i know that especially with where you now have these girls talking to you about maybe he's dating this other person and you know all of that just causes so much energy in you doesn't it yeah just worrying about how you look like feeling like a fool and all of those things yeah it doesn't really i'm so sorry

you're going through it it's a horrible horrible place to be but you're not alone and we've all been through it and we've all come out the other side because i think we can all say we remember times when we were like i'm never gonna love anybody like i love them it's impossible we were soulmates and yet you know here we are you know getting through it and meeting other great people who can match you where you are in your life and what you want yeah yeah so i just cut them off if you have to block them do it because again keep in mind you're and you got to tell yourself i'm not doing this to get a reaction from him i don't care what he thinks and yeah so you you shouldn't let him know if you want to tell yourself, I'm not doing this to get a reaction from him. I don't care what he thinks. And yeah, so you shouldn't let him know.

If you want to block him, block him or mute him. You know, all the little things you can do to stop yourself from being triggered by seeing his Instagram post or social media or just don't look. And just as time goes on, you'll care less and less. But it's going to take some time. So take it easy on yourself. and less, but that's going to, it's going to take some time. So they could take it easy on yourself. And, and when you have those moments of weakness thinking, Oh, it'd be so nice to just, just know that if you do that, it's going to, it's like, it's like, it's like falling off the wagon, so to speak. You'll have, you'll have a bit of a hangover after you get that instant gratification. Yeah, no, I think I already felt that way too after seeing him again it was like

why did I do that yeah so just remember that because a lot of people in your shoes and if you're like anything like Chloe and me like we've given that feeling many times and experience and having over many times and it took a long time to learn so just do yourself a favor and try to learn faster than than we did We did. Wait till you're old. Yeah. All right. Well, I'll try. All right.

Well, take care. Happy holidays. Thank you. Happy holidays. And just enjoy it. Try to enjoy your family during the holidays. You know, I wish I had – stop wishing what you – like, try to enjoy the people you have in your life now and try to enjoy the freedoms of being single.

I know that sounds cliche, but there's a lot of truth to it. You don't do yourself any good by feeling bad for yourself. I'm guessing there's a lot of things to be excited about where you are in your life and all the things you have going for you. And I think you should literally make a list about those things, focus on that and just surround yourself with the friends who really gas you up right now, who really make you feel good about yourself. Those are the people who you should prioritize right now. And anyone else who's not doing that, just take a time out from those people. Yeah, I agree. Don't be hard on yourself. Be nice to yourself. I'll try. Thank you. All right. All right. Well, take care. Thanks. Have a good one.

You too. Chloe, it's been so much fun. Yeah, it has. Thank you for having me. Thanks for coming. Can you let my audience know any other things you're working on or if you want them to follow you? Very on topic. The last few years, I've taken a mental health break from, as you know, i used to be in the entertainment industry myself as an actress and i've taken a few years off to figure out who i am and what i'm about and what i believe in what my message is and i think i'm gonna dip my toe back in starting next year i think i'm gonna get back into acting amazing so you may see me somewhere i look forward to it yeah i hope to see more of you than I have in the past likewise

it was so nice to see you yeah likewise so much fun talking to you and hopefully Sid will still be around it was a pleasure having said and thank you for all your fun and great insights on the Royals it was great

such a tricky situation it is yeah but again it's just real people it's just human beings going through human shit yeah and yeah it's tricky because people very much care

it's I'm very fascinated just how people of all all sorts of different people have can have have found a way to connect in in a bizarre way to this royal family and and relate to them because just deep down just like you and me. Just people. It's fascinating. I see. Well, thank you guys for listening. Don't forget to send in those questions at asknick at castmedia.com. Cast with a K. All right, well, we're back on Monday for your Ask Nick. And then don't forget we have our special update episode for you next Wednesday.

Those are the only two episodes we're having next week in the holiday, in that crazy week. That week between. No man's land. When you don't know who you are and what you're doing. We don't know what's going on. We'll update. Just know that we're here for you. Two episodes. Ask Nick in our update episode on Wednesday. I hope you all have a very Merry Christmas. Happy holidays to

everyone out there. We will see you back on Monday.