The Viall Files - E52 The Big Bukowski

Episode Date: October 16, 2019

Today we have Bachelor OG Chris Bukowski on to talk about his dating history and where he’s at now. He reveals why he keeps going on The Bachelor, opens up about his longest relationship, and tells us what Chris Harrison said to him when he arrived in Paradise this summer. Keep finding those studs and mounting those TVs! Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Donate to Nick’s campaign for The Cystic Fibrosis Foundation or buy a ticket! https://finest.cff.org/walkthepurplecarpet/nickviall THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS: LIQUID IV: http://liquid-iv.com CODE: VIALL NOOM: https://www.noom.com/viall EMBARK: https://embarkvet.com CODE: VIALL See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How is everyone doing on this wonderful hump day? I say hump day because maybe it's not Wednesday when you're listening to it and maybe you're humping today and therefore it could still be hump day. Okay, every day is hump day. Okay. Every day is hump day. Hey! Every day, hopefully, is hump day. Hopefully, every day is consensual hump day. God.

Rochelle, happy 52nd episode. Happy 52nd episode to you. Of the Vilefell. We celebrate the 52nd. You would think that 50 is monumental. The reason we didn't is, one, we forgot to bring it up. Two, there's 52 weeks in a year. And so, in a year and so oh you thought about this huh no i just made it up uh but it does sound good right uh i mean it it is really meaningful and for again we've mentioned this a few times we

always appreciate everyone listening it came it came in fast, 52 episodes. It did. A year's worth of episodes in less than a year. Wow. We're really doing things. I guess so. I do appreciate you guys all listening. It's been a lot of fun.

I hope to have it continue to grow. And it's been very flattering and having people come up and saying hi and say, listen to the podcast is meaningful. And it's been a lot of fun. And I know we've enjoyed doing it. And it's been a fun journey. So as always, thanks for listening. For those tuning in for the first time, because they're dying to hear a little Chris Bukowski. Chris Bukowski.

Thanks for tuning in. There's 51 other episodes. Go back and check it out. I have to say, Chrisris i was like excited he was coming but he's like extra hot in person extra yes i is a good looking guy yeah i was like okay chris then i he came in i was like oh my god he's extra hot yeah extra hot in person do you think that you get a reaction from people that he like, like him, because at times he didn't have the most favorable public persona that played a role

and saw him differently. You know, kind of like the, you know, again, Tyler's hot, right? But Tyler also had like the greatest edit of all time. Not that he's not a great guy, but like there's a world in which Tyler could have not looked good.

I mean, it's possible. Right. It's literally possible for anyone. But here's Chris, a pretty good looking guy. Yeah. But people are like, you're judgy. So yeah, if you know nothing else about Chris Bukowski,

hotter in person. Hotter in person. Truly, truly fascinating. Well, like I said, people, we have hot Chris Bukowski on this show i'm it's a it's a nice easy listen oh yeah what a nice guy what a nice guy he certainly has a lot of perspective about his time on the show similar you guys have some similar but different life trajectories

yeah there's some similarities there yeah you know again like people going back on um like chris chris's was a little more sticky in between he had was like a prominent character and then he went on he was a big star on bachelor pad but like it went differently yeah and then he went on a bunch of times but never really went on it was always like a poppin pop and it became like this almost it came across as a bit sticky and then oh sticky sticky sticky i'm, sticky, sticky, sticky, sticky. You know, he didn't stick. Actually, he would show up and would not stick. He was like the Kramer in Seinfeld where he just pops in, says hello, acts crazy and leaves.

And then leave. And then he kind of got back to his roots, so to speak, and had a clearly obviously a much better time. It's been a fun little little journey for chris yeah um and i always kind of like these i like that the show decides to bring people like chris back to show perspective in a different version of them and i find it's compelling i think a lot of people enjoyed chris this season especially the people watched early on yeah they wouldn't invite him back if he wasn't a good guy don't think that's true i think that that is very true yeah i think there's a lot of uh you know you see a lot there's sometimes fan favorites who you never see again and it's not because they

don't want to go back on um it's because like producers kind of think they're bad people right yeah and they don't want to spend a couple months with them and sometimes maybe they're just difficult to deal with and the pain in the ass and they're And they're just like, there's a lot of variables. But to your point, Chris is a good guy. I know we have a lot of mutual friends and he's not a perfect person and he's open about that. But he's deep down, he has a good heart and he's had his ups and downs throughout the year

and we've had a fun conversation. Yeah, I wanted to check in on our raising money for cystic fibrosis are we are we are we saving people's lives yet have we met our goal listen we're only at fifteen hundred and fifty seven dollars fifteen hundred and fifty seven dollars our goal is five thousand nick is in third place right now i'm in last place rochelle is lying i'm in last place people we needelle's lying. I'm in last place, people. We need to step it up. But we did have some really nice people donate. Katie said her cousin has two girls with CF, and it means a lot that you're raising money for the cause. And then Alicia Salmon donated, Nicole Rubin, a lot of amazing women.

I don't think I'm understating the fact that if it weren't for donations that you guys could give, people like Rochelle's sister wouldn't be in the residency at a hospital being a doctor 20, 30 years ago. She might not be with us at this time. It's because of the research people have done. So any little bit helps. We'll put a link in our bio and the yeah also you can buy tickets to come to the event and hang out nick you can also lauren zima is going to be hosting lauren's even is going to be hosting hang out with us give us a dollar five give us twenty dollars of all the people

listening we can meet our goal if you just give a dollar but give more than a dollar sure but like let's go people anyway you're getting this content for free we appreciate you listening and we appreciate your donations if you can help help Rochelle's sister not die

oh god I'm just saying that's true but well I hope you enjoy this episode thanks for sticking with us happy 52nd episode everyone listening

yes don't forget to send in your five-star ratings uh your reviews are fine but we just like your uh we really appreciate it thanks so much guys up next chris bachowski chris bachowski how you doing man how are you thanks for coming thanks for having me thanks for actually coming in you had a bit of a fender bender this morning a little bit are you okay is everyone fine i'm good you know my uh my ego's hurt a little bit but you know i'm here everyone's fine why is your ego hurt you

know i feel like was it your fault no well okay but i was just frustrated you know nothing like first of all nothing like la traffic and then when you're causing extra traffic oh you yeah you know on the one-on-one yeah it's brutal but you're here dedicated to this podcast we appreciate you coming in um thanks for coming uh i uh i'm looking forward to this i i mean i think this is the most we've spoken in person ever we met once really we met once at a chicago bar ch, I think you had an event or something? Yeah, I was hosting something. And Jacqueline brought me, I believe.

So yeah, Chris and I don't, and we have a bunch of mutual friends. I know like you, like Charlene and them, but Chris and I haven't really hung out too much. Were you never on the show together? No. No, well, we were technically both on Andy Dorfman's season.

That's true. The first time I became aware of Chris's presence was that when everyone was like, I feel like there's... Because we didn't know. I had no idea that was going on. And then we found out... Wait, what was going on? Well, that Chris showed up.

I was there. I don't remember. I had no idea. So Chris on night one showed up at the gate or something and tried to come in. And Andy basically said no. And it was kind of part of Chris's kind of early run of. That's when it all started to spiral downhill for me. You know, I was like, damn, if Nick's on there.

Was that the first season? I was nobody. Oh, you were no one there yet. Okay. It was a software salesman. It's always fun to think about because i'm assuming all the guys would have been had you been on very intimidated by your presence i like that thanks uh well you know you know how it is like at that point everyone's like oh right it's chris pokowski guy you know like well just like

when you came on to caitlin's exactly you're the guy that's the outsider yeah yeah but like also people like are weirdly intimidated i came in late but had you come in night one i think we would all been fairly fairly scared i was working out hard too prior to then too so i was looking pretty jacked were you why didn't andy let you in the gate i didn't even see her but you know what oh there was you never saw her never well i saw her in the distance you know and uh they're and they're like they wanted me to like run up there to like, I'm like, ah, man.

We didn't know he did that until we watched the first episode. Really? I had no idea. Nice. Yeah. That's pretty cool. So she said no from afar. No, they just told me like, no, you know, she's not, doesn't, there was nothing like,

I just kind of stood there for for an hour had a couple vodka sodas and called it a night well you've had quite the uh turnaround i guess you could say um you know we're two people that you know the diehard fans of better nation uh we've kind of you know for different reasons been kind of conveniently the people who go back on. I see it differently. The OGs. The OGs. Well, Chris is even more OG than me.

I was standard definition. Yeah, well, you were on Emily. Yeah, Emily Mayer, 2012. Emily season? Yeah. 2012. I mean, it's crazy. How old were you?

You were young. I just turned 25. You were 25. Yeah. 2012. I mean, it's crazy. How old were you? You were young. I just turned 25. You were 25. Okay. So, yeah, you were. That's the thing. It's not even that long ago. Right.

You really think about it. But in bachelor years, it feels truly. It feels. Was it even in HD? It was. It was. A couple. Yeah.

Like two seasons in HD. But, you know, it feels like it was yesterday. But I've been doing this for a decade now that I think about it you know i was talking to chris harris when i came back onto paradise he's like pokoski's like this is it man like we've spent a decade together like let's finish this you know when when chris says let's finish this what does he mean what did you think he meant when he said let's finish this like don't come back onto this beach ever again or any of these shows bother you when they said that i know chris is great i know he loves to joke and he's sarcastic and him and i have a similar sense of humor but

when that was coming from chris or a producer did i ever bug you being like you guys always wanted me to come right exactly like again we don't have to go into like how did you end up on andy season versus but clearly they always were open to having you come right yeah I think uh I think I am I listen to them a lot so it's like if they want me to come I must be like pretty easy tv for them um so yeah they always wanted me to come and I was you know there was maybe like three years where I was like I'm definitely not coming back but then obviously I came back and so I and help, cause I don't totally know. I know on Emily's season, you were considered a fan favorite, right?

You were a pretty popular guy. And everyone loved like blue eyed Chris and you were just sweet young boy with his heart broken. And then you went on bachelor pad. I just wrecked that place. Yeah. That didn't go well for you. I mean, I, it was honestly out of all of the

shows you know without causing the last one that was the most fun i loved that i've ever had and you know what the show or chris's season in particular i just love bachelor pad it was so messy it was so messy honestly like to this day my friends from the show still come from bachelor pad like jackman swartz and you know a lot of those people i'm still in touch with just because you're in it with these people and like if i made it to the end and there's only six people left in that house so you get to really know people really well that was a season with when when it was Nick yeah he took all my money took took the money yeah I watched that finale with Demi because she yeah she was watching back she watched it and i gotta say i was totally excited with the with

nick a hundred percent well he kind of i didn't know his character but in the end his like he was like you all thought i was gonna go home and i and i get it because in that world i've talked about this as would you agree that bachelor world is very like high school 100 yeah it's it's mean girls club it's like are you the in the crowd are you in the out crowd and it is it's petty and cat caddy and the way nick was talking you could be like yeah he was the outsider everyone was probably like who's this guy he was like probably like oh he went home week one he's not one of the popular kids he's not one of the i guarantee like and that was i'm sure they treated him that way and he he was just like, fuck you guys.

Yeah. And the most I heard of Nick was when he was snoring because we shared a bunk. Oh, no. But he barely talked, but he was a good guy. And he just kind of coasted along. And what he did with keeping all the money, I agreed with it because Rachel just kind of was stuck on someone else the whole time. And she got it. $250K is a nice month of of work not bad five six years ago you

know yeah with inflation that's like two million it's like yeah it's like 20 million these days uh that's great so i mean now that you are wait are you still engaged yeah still with katie great all right had to check in there yeah uh we'll get to uh this season a little bit but like in terms of um you know looking back i mean it's it's been kind of a run for you in terms of and i think you know where i i can relate is like it hasn't always been super positive it hasn't always been super negative you've had these kind of ebbs and flows. I mean, do you reflect back and think about that kind of process and what that's all been like for you? I definitely have. And, you know, before deciding to come back into Paradise this season, I thought a lot about it. But, you know, I think for me, it started like Bachelorette was such a

high for me. You know, I have zero expectations and you're, you know, you travel the world and you meet this, you know, I was actually into the girl. Oh, she's great. So, you know you have zero expectations and you're you know you travel the world and you meet this you know i was actually into the girl oh she's great uh so you know that experience i think i was always just kind of chasing to get that that kind of high back and uh so that's kind of why i kept coming back but it can you know when you try it doesn't it doesn't go too well when you try too hard uh so did you when you describe the high, I mean, we've talked about a little bit before, but just the high of being in that atmosphere and just having that kind of rush of that kind of little club that is the world. Yeah. It's like, you know, getting into a fraternity, you know, and you know, back then in 2012, I mean, Instagram was just starting. So like the social media aspect of it wasn't even that huge.

It wasn't anything. Right. just starting so like the social media aspect of it wasn't even that huge wasn't anything right so you know we i remember we were traveling somewhere and uh one of the guys saw his face on the cover of a magazine you know because he had the first date and like i mean we thought this was the greatest thing in the world oh yeah you know and now it's just like um you know social media has taken over so much um i feel like it's taken away a little bit of the authenticity of, of the show. But yeah, it's been, it's two completely different arrows. A hundred percent. It really,

it really is. After the first time you went on, what did you, what was that experience like for you? And what was your thought process? It being very different. Yeah. The show ends.

Emily season is very, is very popular. You guys are all getting attention and it's not relative. It's different than what it is now. But what, what was your thought process and like what this experience was going to do for you and how do you look back and think of it differently? Yeah. You know, like going into it, I thought, you know, I was going to go home on the first night. So like, I, again, had zero expectations then actually ended up liking her a lot. And, uh, you know, from there, uh, I went straight into bachelor pad, so I didn't have too much time to digest it. I watched only maybe three episodes of the season of the bachelorette.

So then it was like bachelor pad. Yeah. Similar to how they do. Yeah. So it was like, it was a lot at once. And then, you know, you get this like overnight kind of fame where people, you know, want to talk to you and take pictures with you and, you know, all that stuff. So it was, you know, it was a lot to digest, especially when you're, you know, 25. And, um, you know all that stuff so it was you know it was a lot to digest especially when you're you know 25 and um you know for me you know i was more focused on you know starting my restaurants and stuff so it all kind of meshed together so it was kind of a perfect storm did you did you ever move out to la after the show no oddly enough after when i was kind of done doing the shows i moved out to la because i was dating someone out here for a couple years okay because i remember hearing from some of like the people in the press i felt like i i heard

something like emily maynard season was like the first season where they noticed a lot of cast members kind of we're moving to la yeah you see that more and more now especially with social media but like i is that true like where a lot of guys kind of moved out here hoping to capitalize on the yeah i think there was definitely the conversations i don't i don't think too many guys actually did it um so oddly enough i'm only season was actually the only season that wasn't filmed at the bachelor mansion we actually filmed in charlotte oh that's right which was which was awesome let me tell you this house was magnificent compared you never stayed at the bachelor not so bachelor pad yeah because bachelor pad is fine right i mean the bachelor mansion it's fine it's fine the one in charlotte you can get lost in it wow that was amazing really yeah and there was

like air conditioning like plantation home type of thing oh it was huge yeah yeah the pool was amazing so you had the most fun on bachelor pad but at the time when you were filming it did you think this was going to go differently and then as people obviously watched it and there was obviously some criticism and i i did see that final and i think you had some sort of like contrition moment where you're like hey it wasn't my best self and my bad you know what what did you think about that or were you just kind of saying because you felt like i don't look the best or what were your real true thoughts about your experience versus the other ones especially considering you actually had the

most fun right yeah that's the thing is like in the moment i never thought i was doing anything wrong when i was there filming bachelor pad and uh obviously after you watch it you're like whoa like that looks way worse than well sure right and what were in i for the people who didn't watch it like myself the whole whole episode what were your you criticized most for mostly they i came off as a player um i i apparently hooked up with three different girls in the house okay you know is it entirely true um oh it was not no why not no one was unsuccessful i mean well's the thing. It's like, you know, it's a dating show. So it's like you're supposed to, you know, date and see if there's anyone on the show that you like. So there was just three different girls.

And I, at the end, I ended up being with the one that I picked out of the three. Just like being on The Bachelor was my mini version, I guess. Yeah. Well, that's the problem with like Bachelor in Paradise and Bachelor Pat is that, you know, the show has a way of, again, they'll use it against you if you're like, oh, well, I guess it's a dating show. I'm going to date as many people as possible. They're like, whoa, player. Also, I mean, it's a competition show. So you have to manipulate a little bit, you know, like you're trying to win money at the end of the day.

Well, that's the thing. I can't imagine Bachelor Pad because of the money at home. And it truly was just like, well, well wait is this about love or are we trying to get paid here I don't and then you're intersecting the two yeah but isn't that

the real bachelor too I don't yeah that's true that's true that's true well I mean yeah with Instagram

but again it's like I feel like bachelor pad the concept was so great because you go on paradise and there's just people that aren't making any connections so there's still like uh you know there's a reason for them to stick around because they can win money um so i thought that was kind of just a

cool cool element compared to you know paradise and cycling people what what do you think about your lower thirds what do you mean where they were like every time they said your name it was oh that was bad wait you don't like it was every time they said your name, it was like... Oh, that was bad. Wait, you don't like it? Was it offensive? Well, no. So it was great when there was one. So when they listed all my seasons on there, I tweeted at Robert Mills.

I'm like, Mills, we got to stop this, man. This is getting out of control. You didn't like it. And he's like, all right, we'll fix it. And I'm thinking he's going to put just something like Bachelor Regular. Just one of these. Bachelor Regular. And then I'm thinking, oh, man, he's totally going to mess with me now. And so obviously they alternated every week. I thought it was great.

Even mine. Mine was runner up on Paradise. But again, it's a tough process to learn to laugh at yourself on that show um i felt like you did a good job of it thanks this this season well chris came on our podcast and he like chris harrison and he talked you up a ton yeah he was like we've been through a lot together so i think we're finally on the same page with uh with things so before you found love on paradise obviously uh i get asked a lot about how the show and became very kind of like a like a gag or a stunt it kind of had that feeling right and you kind of played into it a

little bit yeah in terms of like you know first the andy was i'm assuming it was a sincere attempt at coming back on and had you actually let you back on you would have been part of the season and then you go on paradise and then you kind of and i kind of felt like you were just like well fuck it i'll just go on and get sent home and that will be this thing um you know how did that affect you know once you're like i'm done here did you ever have a moment where you in that when you were doing those kind of almost kind of sticky appearances did you got caught up in it and you felt like you needed a break like were you kind of going through something i guess is my question i think again i think it was just kind of trying to keep and going back and trying to get that original image or that original experience that i had

from bachelorette you know well i'm curious that's a good point were you trying to get back the original image you had or the rush of just the experience? Because I would argue those are two very different. They are two different things. And I think that rush comes with the image. Photolith. Yeah. But as you would agree, just being in that world, sitting in the chair, it's therapeutic.

It's like a rush. It's when you go back, there's this weird like, I can't believe I'm doing this. Also, it's good to be back's it almost feels like you're at home yeah which is bad it's a weird it is a weird psychological thing but to your point and i've never experienced that because i was always trying to i was going the opposite direction but i was always thankful to start on the bottom and go on the way up right you started at the top you then you decreased and then you found your way back up on top but did you feel like you were trying to like constantly give your head above water because that that sounds very dangerous i was oh it's extremely dangerous because it you never as much again like as much as you try you don't like it's

almost impossible in the last when i knew on paradise 2 when i came back and i was just like i had way too much to drink at the pool i came way later in the season i'm like this is i gotta it's time to go and it's time to not come back you know no yeah so after that is when i kind of called it quits and then what is what have you been up to i mean what have you been doing the past three years were you kind of just back to civilian life and being like a just a regular guy so after paradise 2 i actually dated someone for a couple years um out here in la and uh it was it was great and normal just a normal person that i've known since like back in college and uh so that was good and um you know after that ended i just was just busy, man, just focused on work and stuff and being a normal person.

It was kind of nice. Yeah. In terms of when you had the relationship, how much, if at all, did your time on the show come up? Or was it kind of pretty much died down when you'd go out and it wasn't really a thing? I mean, people would still recognize me and stuff. But my ex-girlfriend, she, she never watched the show. And like, she just really kind of like brushed it all off, like anything that happened on the show previously, which was great. Um, you liked that. I liked that. Yeah. Cause it is hard to date, you know, um, outside of, outside of the show,

just cause you never really know, you know, I feel like people either know or you assume what they know about you or know you, or eventually after like that first date, you know i feel like people either know or you assume what they know about you or know you or eventually after like that first date you know they go google you and then they find out about you or whatever is you know on the internet and it's it's a battle because it's kind of hard to see if someone's like genuinely into you sure i mean it can be a challenge so you dated her for what you said two years yeah yeah a big part of your time away was in a relationship. Yep. Interesting.

Yep. And then that ended. Yep. And then how long were you single for? Oh, yeah. Um, I think we were just at this,

at the time of relationship where it's like, we were either, you know, going all in or we were just going to kind of go our separate ways. And it was, you know, it was a, it wasn't like a rough breakup by any means.

It was just I didn't want to be out in L.A. I wanted to be in Chicago and stuff, and it was just kind of a distance thing at the end there. But it was a good relationship. I learned a lot from it. What did you learn? Well, wow, that's a good question. We talk a lot about relationships, Chris.

That's a good question. If chris that's a good question if you're gonna say you learned we're gonna ask what no i learned no you know obviously you know you have to really get to know the the needs of the other person and kind of kind of put yours you know uh you know behind yourself and and really listening to what what people need when you're in a relationship, especially living together, because we lived together for a year. And that was the first time I ever lived with, with, you know, a girlfriend. So that was a big learning experience, especially, you know, having each other's space and all that stuff. And it was, it was a battle.

It was tough. I mean, because why did you guys move into it? Like, what was that conversation? Like, I'm curious. Yeah, because I was living in Orange County, she Like, what was that conversation like? I'm curious. Yeah, because I was living in Orange County. She was up in LA and I was always up in LA. So we're like, all right, well, why don't we just get a place together? I'm like, okay, cool. You know, like we'll have an extra bedroom.

I'll work out of the extra bedroom and like we'll have all this space. But we were just on two completely different schedules, like work schedules. So there was never really, I really never had my own space, I feel like. And yeah, so, you know, and that's tough because I am a very, I feel like a very independent person. I like my space. I like to kind of go at my own speed. And, you know, and that kind of, I lost that. It was, it was really difficult for sure. Do you think that played a role in why things ultimately ended maybe in a positive way i mean

definitely listen yeah i think moving into with someone too soon really will let you know that you shouldn't be with them right no you learn real quick and i think you know we had a lot of good times and then there was a lot of times we were just like this is really tough and like i don't you know we don't think this is gonna work out but again it was like it was a civil breakup and i mean we're still like in contact and stuff so it's not it's not bad by any means and then so then you broke up you're single for a while did you stay in la or that's when you moved to denver the day we broke up i took my car and i was driving back to chicago made a pit stop in denver uh to meet up with some of my college

buddies and uh i just loved it out there so ended up uh staying out there i've been there for almost two years now kind of like a gypsy and very nomadic you seem to be very easily every you know again we haven't hung out much but we have enough mutual friends where i'll be like i hear you're like living in all these different places i'm having a hard time keeping up is that sometimes man when i wake up i'm like damn where you know what city am i in uh but yeah it's uh i like it i like to feel like i'm not really a you know um held down to any city i do? But yeah, it's, I like it. I like to feel like I'm not really, you know, held down to any city. I do travel a lot. So it's kind of nice to be able to go to a couple of cities and stay there. So you like that. What do you think causes that in you to,

is that an unsettling feeling or you just enjoy the, um, I think I like the excitement of, of picking up and going. Almost like starting fresh. But I feel like I've hit every city now, so I can't even do that anymore. How has that affected your relationships? And I mean, like, are you trying to find someone, you know, you're in a relationship, but like is it important in a relationship to have someone as flexible with that? Or is that something that when you get,

when you feel too settled or grounded that you feel like you got to go, you got to go somewhere. Yeah, that's a thing. Definitely. Um, but I feel like I will, once that happens, like I'm ready to, you know, call someplace home, you know, and stay in that same place. Uh, you know, when I was in my, my last relationship, I, I didn't, I traveled maybe one eighth of the amount I travel now. So I was pretty, I was in LA a lot. Uh, so, you know, uh, you know, the relationship obviously comes first and you know, if there, you can find someone that wants to travel with you and do all that stuff with you. And it's amazing. That's great. It is great. What are the, what's your business? You own restaurants? Yeah. So I have, uh, I have three in DC and then one in Chicago.

You own restaurants? Yeah, so I have three in D.C. and then one in Chicago. Wow. Why in D.C.? So my business partner is from Maryland, and actually right when I was finishing up Bachelor Pad, we agreed that we would open up. Arlington, Virginia was our first restaurant, and then we have two in the airports out there.

And then obviously my dream was always to have one in Chicago, and this other group kind of had a license deal and opened up one in Chicago for us. What are their names it's all called bracket room upscale sports bars oh they're all all the same name all the same bit of a franchise yeah yeah what about are you gonna open one in denver no i don't know i don't want to open up anymore so what are you doing in denver that's that's a great question um so denver's kind of my place to go and not be near anything that stresses me out uh so it's really relaxing for me i hang out i have good friends there and uh it's a central location

for me between chicago and la uh so i just kind of like to hang out there and clear my head yeah that sounds nice it is a whole city yeah i fly to my. Yeah. I fly to my stress. So in Denver, honestly, it's really nice because I don't. You fly to your stress. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And is everywhere but your home hub, do you see that as stressful? I mean, wherever I have work or business, it's tough to say that I'm stress-free.

So especially if I'm in New York or DC or LA, I feel like there's always something going on. When are you the least stressed? Man, probably when I'm dead asleep at like two in the morning when I can't even think about being stressed or not stressed. So by yourself, by myself, do you like being by yourself a lot? I do like being by myself, but I also, when I'm by myself, I'm like, yourself a lot i do like being by myself but also when i'm by myself i'm like damn i wish i was you know i wish you know someone was with me yeah okay so it's like you know two sides of everything there all right so then you what made you even consider going back on the season like what was that thought process like i mean yeah i was a little

surprised when i heard you're going back on me too i thought you were like done and it was like a couple seasons that passed and it was kind of like so they called me for uh the bachelorette reunion show that they did that special i think it was was it 10 years yeah yeah yeah because they wanted me to be on there because i was the person with the most appearances on a show so i went they flew me out to the mansion and i did something in the back well actually and uh just filmed for the reunion and they're like you know we would like for you to come back on paradise and this was like four months you know even prior to them selecting you know the cast and it was just always in the back of my mind and i didn't tell anybody really uh so i just kind of kind of thought it through and and I decided to do it. And I didn't really tell even my family until about a week before I left.

That's interesting. Did you have any demands, like the fact that you were original cast? I thought that was a huge deal for you. I mean, there was no way I wouldn't go back unless I was original cast. Because you're dealing with a shorter deck, so to speak. Right, 100%. And that was my third time doing Paradise, and it was my first time being on the original cast. yeah because you're you're dealing with a shorter deck so to speak right a hundred percent um and i was you know that was my third time doing paradise and it was my first time being on the original

cast the first time i did what do you mean original cast first on the beach yeah well the first original people on the beach oh they call that original cast sure i i mean i i kind of made it up i don't know i don't know if that's a technical term um but yeah the original people like every season if the the original people in the cast tend to be the ones who are have the best uh experience and they have the best chance of connecting with someone you know people come in within the first few so you know that that that's all can vary that's kind of nice yeah you know the first season i came in with the first day i was the first one to come on with the day card, which was kind of cool. So that's pretty much kind of the same too, you know.

Not quite as, you know, you miss that first day or two. Right. But other than that, you're pretty good. But it's when you, when the group kind of gets established in like a week later and then you start bringing it in, coming in, there's definitely, you definitely feel like a bit of an outsider. It is. It's hard to break into any kind of relationship or even friendship everyone feels like they've been

doing this for so long how nervous were you going in i mean what so you decide to go on yeah your original cast you don't really know anyone zero you know and with it being and so like last time you did this you you probably knew at least half, if not more, of the people going into Bachelor Pad. And even every time you went on to Paradise before, you kind of always knew someone. I mean, how scared were you? I was actually pretty nervous. And it was kind of cool, though. That was my whole thing.

It was like, you know, I'm not going to research anybody. I'm not going to message anybody. No. Oh, inch. Smart. And I'm going to just do this as authentically as possible and get to really know people and not have any kind of preconceived opinions about them from their times on the show because they can definitely have that about me but i was so far removed i

mean it's been three years so even the people that were on the beach they literally knew nothing about me except for maybe a couple and i knew nothing about anyone the only person that i've crossed paths with before was Derek out in New York. Sure, yeah. And that's it. Was he original cast, Derek? He was original cast, yeah. Okay.

So you come on, you're pretty nervous. Yeah. What was those first few moments? Were people treating you like an outsider? Well, at first, some people thought I was a producer. So that was interesting. So yeah, you just walked on. And oddly enough, Katie was one of the first people that came up to me and like hugged me. Like I was this like person that she's known forever, you know? Um, so that kind of broke the ice and, you know, started to talk with people. It's really easy when you don't, when people don't know you or you don't know them because the conversation is so much easier because you get to learn so much more about people, you know, instead of, you know, having these, these these these uh messages back and forth prior to going on the show and you already know everything about

everybody and you're you're trying to pretend that you don't exactly and it just makes it awkward and you know back in my day you know back in like back in bachelor pad days and like you would get you would get shunned if you if someone found out you were like dming or messaging before coming onto the show it's definitely it's definitely changed yeah completely interesting you say that though but like in the dating world minus the show we we always we have so much access to people right and yeah people when they go on dates like what's the fine line between googling someone stalking the instagram page online dating how like i just i think it's a giant waste of time to have a bunch of back and forth text conversations because like what how sincere can you be you're trying to get to know

someone over text and then you decide whether you want to get a drink or not and for that reason it can be even more difficult having a drink or getting a cup of coffee and then you kind of feel like well what do we talk about now or and then if you have googled them or face like stock there do you pretend you don't know right i mean i always i don't know if you felt the same way but when i would when i go on dates with someone who, outside of the LA scene or outside of Bachelor World, and just a civilian, a teacher Erica, whatever. And many a teacher watches The Bachelor. And there was often the struggle I have is like this, you can tell they're pretending they don't know, right? And there's just an awkwardness of how much do I let them know I know him

or know about them or do we just pretend? Everyone handles it differently, but it's breaking through that that can feel awkward. But even in like the regular dating world, that can also play a role too where like you don't want to get caught up in like a white lie early on our first date where it's just like you start asking leading questions because maybe you sell something you google them or you saw something on their instagram or whatever and you're like why is this person asking such specific questions about me right

and then did you google me oh i didn't look at your instagram right right i feel like that happens a lot in the dating world i don't know did. Did you, I mean, someone who went in and like wanting to have such an open book, were you that way in dating before you went on the show? Just not feeling like, I don't want to look. I just want to go on and fresh. Well, he dated an old friend. That kind of makes sense.

Yeah. Someone who knew you from before. And I'll tell you, like I went, I did, you know, the dating apps for a little bit and all that stuff. And it sucks. I, you know, it's such a battle. I do think it, you know the the dating apps for a little bit and all that stuff and it sucks i i you know it's it's such a battle i i do think it you know i love that awkward moment of when you're fine when you're meeting someone for the first time for real you know and it's like all right how do we break the

ice here you know ass out one pat hug yeah like what's what's like a you know do pickup lines even exist anymore you know and everyone's like all, so what's the first line you use on Bumble or whatever? What is the first line you'd use on Bumble? I don't know. I'd wait for them to say the first line when that was happening. But it's like if you meet someone out, if you're at the airport or anywhere, it's like, do you already feel like that person already knows you? Or if you do go and talk to them, they're like going to the bathroom to like check your Instagram and like see what's going on.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we deal with that a lot. Everyone does. I guess it's, you know, it's a little heightened obviously in our shoes having gone on the show, but like nowadays I think that's kind of a problem with dating out there is

the, everyone is very Googleable to a certain extent. Everyone has their life on their Instagram to a certain extent everyone has their life on their instagram to a certain extent and if you're not private like it gives that person an opportunity to you know and again i get it like especially as women out there you want to like is this a guy i want to go out with you know there's a safety thing you know maybe definitely and then with guys like uh what am i i get that you want to to do that but like where do we draw the line right between just going and meeting up for a drink and getting to know someone that's why i feel like

there's any authentic authenticity is almost gone unless it's accidentally happens like unless you're you know you got a delay at the airport or and then you just strike up a conversation i just think there's too much thought now before you actually go on a date with somebody and that's a good point everyone's always complaining about how i want to meet someone and i want to write everyone says the grocery store the grocery store or a coffee shop or whatever and you're right i mean i like it's harder and harder to have those authentic moments that we we always so dream about the movies or whatever right because but it's our fault. We all, we want to know more where we become more impatient.

There's no avoiding it. I mean, there's always something in you. Like if you're like, all right, no Instagram for three months, I'm not Googling anybody. It's still in you. Like you still are going to find a way to find out more about that person

that you aren't actually learning on your own. So you go back on Paradise and more than anyone else, you have this chance to have these authentic conversations. So you didn't watch Hannah's season then, obviously? No, I watched maybe the first episode for a few minutes. Well, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, you went down to Mexico, what, week two of it airing?

Oh. So like he, even if he wanted to, he was filming. Oh, no, yeah, yeah, you're right yep yep it like yeah most of most of the cast don't get to watch it's always interesting for especially the guys right no way is it yes the guys the guys who filmed with with hannah or every season because there's always at what five or six guys from the most recent bachelorette and they literally get sent home they go right to paradise and they have no idea

no idea how it's going to be aired or what they're going on they might be able to guess about their experience but they don't really know yeah

that's always kind of fun yeah it always brings me back because when I went on bachelor pad it was like a week into like it was like father's day

or some holiday and they're like oh you can you know they let us call they let let me call my dad oh no that's and the bachelorette was still airing and my my dad's like oh man like i don't know it looked really interesting that last episode and then i'm just all in my head i'm like oh what do you mean interesting like he's like i don't know i know yeah like you know like it was maybe an episode i was like crying or something and uh then i'm just sitting there and i'm like all right this is why they don't let us watch this stuff while we before we go on and film but um but yeah it's uh interesting for sure so you get to the beach

and at what point i mean i don't know about you but like giving your previous experiences i'd be constantly kind of an angst of like all right i did this should i have done this am i glad i did this and at what point if at all did you feel like settled into this season where you feel like all right i'm here and i feel like this has generally been a positive thing or how long were you nervous for you know i wasn't too nervous early on like i i pretty much hit it off with you know some of the guys the older guys like uh like clay and derrick and and blake and you know i felt fine because the reason why it was so um i wasn't so nervous about it because there was so much drama that was already that was already like built up prior to filming i had no idea you were just like yeah this is easy street i'm like this is i'll watch you know

i'll watch and like i have no say in anything. I found myself on the beach one time just sitting in a chair. And I was just looking in the sky. And it was like an hour. I'm like, wow, I must be doing this right because there's not a camera around me. And there's all this commotion going on. I'm like, all right, I think I finally figured this out. We've been tough on Blake on this show. i met blake i like him as a person yeah i was

i've been critical of how he handled things leading up and more specifically afterwards what are your thoughts on that whole experience and what was it like both in the moment seeing it you know because maybe things are you know uh shown in a different tone. Sure. And then what were your thoughts on it as it played out while it was airing in the social media battle and the finale? As someone who is an outsider, came in, watched the whole thing from the beginning to the end, what were your thoughts as a friend of Blake's? Yeah. I mean, being there was tough to see him. I mean, he was struggling every day, like stressed out. And, you know, I was a listener.

Like I listened to him because I was kind of, you know, on a very small scale in his position before when I was on bachelor pad, when, you know, nobody liked nobody liked you and you were kind of stuck in this, you know, in this, you know, for him, it was it was just it was like the after the show part was tough because I know you just want it to be over with. You know it's about to happen. You know the airing. I feel like that's actually the tougher part than actually being part of it is witnessing it all over again, you know, a month after it happens. So, you know, I don't take any sides. I listen to both sides.

I don't think anyone was right. I don't think anybody was wrong. I know that's a very safe way to say things here. I'm not asking you take any sides. I listen to both sides. I don't think anyone was right. I don't think anybody was wrong. I know that's a very safe way to say things here. I'm not asking you to take sides. I'm just asking your critical opinion of, especially for someone, as you can say, like Blake, in a lot of ways, was similar in a sense. Very popular.

Yep. You were very popular. Yep. And then it happened differently, but then you become criticized. And I think what I, I was critical of Blake because I thought almost all of his motives

and the things he said and did were all about looking good. And I think from what I heard when he was down there and just watching it back, it seemed like what he was so stressed about is being so aware of his edit. Even when he was talking on the show, he kind of mentioned this isn't going to look good. Every time Blake would talk, he would like say two words, look up to the left, say two more words, look up to the left again.

And it was always about saying, what do i think is going to sound good and then that content that action kind of continued as someone who kind of admits looking back stepping away that you were always trying to um get back to where you started right i that's kind of what i see in blake and i've become kind of critical of that of like just be yourself be genuine do what you just think is in your heart because you're not doing that now do you see that similar similarity and again no one's saying Blake's a bad guy but I just think he got caught up in his own I mean portrayal definitely in his desire to maintain that love for himself 100% the most difficult thing that happened for Blake is from the very first day on that beach,

it was starting to go downhill for him. So he had to deal with that and he knew that it wasn't good. And, uh, so constantly he was trying to, as you said, look better. Um, and, and, you know, looking back, it's like, you know, maybe forcing some things with different people that it wasn't, he didn't really even mean it, you know looking back it's like you know maybe forcing some things with different people that it wasn't he didn't really even mean it yeah you know and trying to kind of get that that good ending and when you start trying too hard it's right it doesn't work out well yeah and then so and that that's what I got the sense from you it's just like you almost kind of needed

that break right you're gone for a couple years you dated someone else he didn't really know any of these new cast members right you go in there and it's just like oh i'm just gonna try to meet people which is like what really the show seems is intended for it's become harder and hard right harder and harder because of social media and the quick turnaround and i'm i i don't really criticize the show or or the cast members like it's just impossible not to i mean if people ask me advice like what should i do for paris i'm like don't dm people don't reach out to your peers but you're gonna meet people at a party you're gonna go out you're gonna get invited to so-and-so and meet four people are you gonna like not talk it's hard to avoid it it's hard to avoid it yeah um but it it seemed like you really benefited from that mindset it was the best

thing honestly i think if i did know uh you know half these people going on to i don't think it it seemed like you really benefited from that mindset. It was the best thing. Honestly, I think if I did know, you know, half these people going on to, I don't think it would have been a great experience for me. And that's probably just different because I'm from, you know, different time and I'm older. And I think honestly it was the best thing.

And, and you know, even production was like, don't, you know, that was a whole thing for me going back on is like, I am not researching anybody here. You know, I'm not, I'm not. And I knew, you know, they came and they're like, what do you think about this girl? Or what, you know, that was a whole thing for me going back on is like, I am not researching anybody here. You know, I'm not, I'm not.

And I knew, you know, they came and they're like, what do you think about this girl? Or what do you think about that girl? I'm like, I have no idea who this girl is. And, um, and I'm like, I'm just going to go. And I remember the only person that, uh, only girl that they mentioned, she's, and, you know, he's like, well, you know, the girl, she had the fake Australian accent. And I just remember seeing a commercial. Yeah. And I'm like, oh'm like oh yeah i remember her and that was the only person that i remembered uh when when they were mentioning you know different people before i was actually going to

film did you have a different mentality i mean again i watched clips of you before and this season you seemed you seemed kind of different granted, that could just be you did different things and it was aired differently. But do you feel like you've grown up a lot in that sense where you approached it very differently and had a different mindset? Because that's how it came across. Yeah, no, I mean, yeah.

I mean, I'm 33 now and I was 25 then. So in eight years, you grow up a lot and you learn from your mistakes. You're 33? 33, yeah. Why are they acting like you grow up a lot and you learn from your mistakes. You're 33? 33, yeah. Why are they acting like you're so old? I know. That's insane.

Well, I think it's because of the time frame, right? It's a whole decade. Oh, my God. So honestly, I have- You have a mature face. I know, I know. You don't have a baby face. You look great.

Thanks. But you don't, you didn't look 25, I guess, is the thing. Right. When you were 25. I've always looked older. But yeah, I mean, even on Emily's season, they're like, oh, you didn't look 25, I guess is the thing. Right. I've always looked older. But yeah, I mean, even, you know, on Emily's season, they're like, oh, you're only 25.

I'm like, yeah. But yeah, I have grown. And I think you just learn to what kind of be a part of and what kind of advice to give and where to kind of stick your nose in and just kind of, you know, honestly, it's just got to think more selfishly about yourself. And I feel like a lot of the drama that goes on, it's no matter, you know, honestly, you just got to think more selfishly about yourself. And I feel like a lot of the drama that goes on,

no matter what you say, it's not beneficial to yourself or to anybody else. So for me, it was just kind of giving advice based on my experiences that I've had on the show. And I've had them all. Did you give a lot of advice? I really did. And, you know, to Blake, to JPJ,

to a lot of the guys and even some of the girls. And it Blake, to JPJ, to a lot of the guys, and even some of the girls. And it was just like, listen, you're not going to want to do that that way. And I'm just telling you because I've done it that way before. Was it with JPJ? JPJ. I feel like you have the – I liked how you said it. I don't remember. But you're kind of like, hey, man, I feel like you're trying.

I feel like you're doing what you think is right right now, but you probably are going to regret it. I liked how you said that. I didn't feel like JPJ in the moment really cared about what you had to say. Right. Well, yeah, for like three days, JPJ was in a whole different world. But I think he understood it when I was saying it and definitely understood it when he saw it.

Did he? I mean, I haven't really talked to him, but I can't really tell if he's contrite about it because he doesn't at least in the finale he didn't seem yeah he certainly didn't apologize to derek right i'm sorry you felt that way is not an apology right now i agree um but i think he understood what i was saying that it might not look the best sure when it airs and you know what if it's it's his business to apologize or not apologize like i don't know where he was getting his information and all that stuff but uh you know that's that but uh yeah i like to give my advice where i i thought people were

listening kind of i guess benefit from it yeah i mean i really think it came through and it was kind of it was nice to see i i liked also that they decided to cast you for no other reason that you and Derek are older. I mean, it was a very young season. And I felt like you guys brought some levity to the... I don't know how you felt, Rochelle, but when... You know what I'm imagining, I guess, going back to Chris's edit before, but when Chris is offering some real talk or just like logical thinking compared to some of the the drama it was refreshing almost like it kind of needed that

like yeah that sense of like maturity in the show that you weren't getting a lot of i mean i liked the drama but i it's i like they need i'd like to see it get a little bit more grounded. I agree. I agree. There was a lot of noise. And a lot of, I mean, these people were young. I mean, they were young. I mean, you played in the whole grandpa thing.

Did you feel that when you were down there? I really did. Very self-conscious about how young, especially the guys. The guys were particularly young relative there wasn't a lot of there was you and Derek and everyone else was like 25 yeah everyone was young and you could tell I mean not that they lacked the maturity you could just tell that they were kind of very excited you know very excited which they should be and uh especially the new guys that are just you know coming off a Hannah season and And you can just tell who has done this before and who is just doing it for the first time.

It's two completely different mindsets. But it's actually kind of nice to watch because it is kind of cool to see how excited. And you got to think about that too. When you see people doing things that you think they probably shouldn't be doing. Like, well, this is their first time doing it. So I guess learn the hard way you know of of this isn't the right way but uh you can't take away from their experience because it's the first time they're doing it did you imagine you would leave the show engaged no i

didn't um you know obviously i wouldn't you know hoping that i would meet somebody and uh i i did and i'm obviously i'm glad i did and uh you towards the end there, it's like there's a lot going on. Your emotions, you're locked in. You're so locked in. And, yeah, I don't think you ever can really walk in there and be like, oh, I'm leaving this show engaged. But, no, I was lucky enough to really get to have a good relationship with Katie on the show.

And there's a lot that people didn know, people didn't see too. So it's a battle, you know, it's definitely a battle to get there. And the, you know, there's so many obstacles, you know, that you don't see when you're there. And it's, yeah, it was a hell of a ride, man. Now, I've gotten to know Katie a little bit. I quite like her. Demi is a very close friend of mine mine i know those two are very close friends i gotta say though when watching

the finale i was very team chris and i was like what the fuck is going on yeah what were your thoughts on that and you know i'm sure there was a lot you know not kidding in production but like to me it was just like why is katie bringing this up now what were your thoughts and like uh how are things going now and and would you agree that you were also team chris in that moment i don't agree like i i know demi was critical katie had her things to say but like i love demi but like in the moment yeah what the fuck man i was you know in the moment i was like that too um but i should have i should have known you know listen everything it wasn't perfect you know after done it's it's

struggle like meeting everybody's family and staying you you know you know it's a very challenging it's very challenging and uh we've had the conversations of you know we got to do this that you know and be better and and you know at the finale i i should have i had this feeling like you know that it wasn't going to be as smooth as i thought it was going to be i thought we were going to go up there and you know talk about the things we need to work on and but also talk about you know the good things and kind of where we see our future and um so yeah i was a little surprised but did you and katie have a conversation leading up to the finale of like well i guess what do what do we want to talk about like what should what should we discuss? Yeah. And you know what, you always, you have those conversations, but it completely changes when you're there. But I was just curious if you had

the conversation. We did, we did. We had conversations like that. And that's why I was a little bit surprised, but honestly, like looking back, like I'm, I'm thankful that it happened that way because it really, you know, it really kind of tested us to see like if we really want to, you know, do this. And, you know, it was tough right after that. But again, like it was a little bit of a wake up call for me as well. And, you know, we both deserve the best of each other. So, you know, and that I think we really started to kind of commit each other like 110% after that. That's good.

Was there a part where because it was filmed and then it was aired a couple weeks later did you did you have to process that frustration twice yeah right because when it's when it happens i'm assuming you refresh it in the moment and then it's aired and you're like yeah no i'm really still fucking pissed yeah you know obviously that night i was you know we were disappointed um but we ended up you know, obviously that night I was, you know, we were disappointed. But we ended up, you know, we stayed together, you know, and it wasn't that as bad as it seems. And then, you know, everything's good. And then it airs. And, okay, so like the happiest moment ever.

We get engaged on TV. And then an hour later, you know, it is all hell breaks loose, you know, at the finale. And so it was tough because you're such a high such a low and then the season it just ended with us walking away from each other so now you know are we together are we not together a lot of like rochelle actually texted she's like we got to get him on the podcast i don't even know what's going on right i don't because i actually didn't watch the last few minutes yeah uh what are you talking about yeah um but you guys are together yeah we're together and it's uh we just we kind of like to stay out of the the all the instagram stuff a little bit and still

like lead our independent you know lives but you know we're still together what's your favorite thing about katie i mean she tells it how it is like she like i can you know get away with things you know before and stuff but When you say get away with When we have conversations, you know, they're effective. And, you know, I always feel like there's always a solution at the end of our conversations, whether it's, you know, something we disagree on or we agree on, there's always, you know, a solution. And I feel like she's someone that really thinks about the

things that she's gonna say and i respect that um instead of you know being someone that just says things to say things and she's so selfless she cares so much you know about me and her friends and her family and that's you know i've never met someone as so selfless as her and obviously she's gorgeous i mean her eyes are ridiculous and it's good as unbelievable i i mean i will say, I don't know Katie too well. I've hung out with her a handful of times, always in brief moments.

And I did notice that about her. She seems to be a very giving person and she, her, she seems to, yes, she takes value in being a good friend to anyone she's in a relationship with friendship or otherwise. And I definitely notice it about that.

What would Katie say about you in terms of what's her favorite thing about you and the thing that she hopes that maybe you can improve upon? Yeah, I think, as you can tell, the whole thing was like, I don't give a lot emotionally. I'm a hard person. You literally move states. You feel panicked. Yeah. I just, I, you know, I move states. Yeah. But no, honestly, it's you know, I'm not a very emotionally giving person. So it's, I think. What's your love language? Do you know? Um, I'm, I'm a

acts of service guy. Acts of service. You like to do nice things for the people you love. Yeah. I like to do nice things, yeah. But I'm not a much of like, I don't really say too many compliments. I want to. But why?

I don't, that's just the way I'm wired. You don't say a lot of compliments. I don't. So you'll be like, do this whole like nice thing for someone and like kind of pat him on the head not not not particularly but no but yeah it's uh you know it's um yeah more of a of a giving person than you know physically then you mentioned like your dad commenting on you crying on tv was he always like kind of like man up no no you know what i and i hate that term i hate the term man up because i think you know as men we should be able to be as emotional as as we want to be and and can be um but no my you know

i i respect my dad for understanding that it is a very emotionally tolling thing that this this show that we go on and uh you know he's an emotional guy himself and i respect that so um but no like uh you know listen i i ran out of tears and I respect that. So, um, but no, like, uh, you know, listen, I, I ran out of tears on that show, man.

Like, I don't even think there's, there's any left, but, um, but yeah, it's, did you become a more emotionally open guy as a result of going on this show? A hundred million percent.

Yeah. A hundred million percent from, see, it does some positive, the very beginning from the bachelorette. But again, like it also helped, you know, at some point it kind of closed me off too.

It's like, oh, maybe I'm being too emotionally available. You know, just like then I'm, you know, laying my feelings out there and then I get hurt. Oh. You know? Yeah. And now it's just like, you know, now I'm just confused, you know, in the middle sometimes. And so I want to be, I want to give, you know, the emotional support that someone deserves 110% of the time, but I'm still a little like tentative sometimes.

We've learned a lot about attachment styles in the show recently. I'm curious of what, what, what. Avoidant for sure. You think Chris is avoidant? Yeah. Well, maybe not. You run away when it starts to get. I like to be by myself when things get a little, a little.

Yeah. I wonder where that comes from. Yeah. Apparently attachment styles often are rooted in our lives and our relationships that we be by myself when things get a little uh yeah i wonder where that comes from yeah apparently attachment styles often are rooted in um our lives and our relationships that we have prior to our present right relationships and whether it's parents often and and it doesn't mean you're what we've learned is that i mean our parents are good or bad or just how we connected or things that happen are your parents still married yeah yeah. Yeah. 40 years. Wow. Yeah.

Wow. Interesting. Yeah. But you said you weren't ever going to move to LA? Well, yeah. I mean, when I moved out of LA, I'm like, I'm never moving back to LA. But you know what? If it means, you know.

Katie's from LA or she's been living here. She's been here for five years. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. She's been here for five years. She's in a. Yeah.

She's been hustling out here for a while so like i respect it it was a whole like oh let's move to la because we were on tv like i can't i'm not about that um so um yeah if if she needs me to be in la i'll be in la i'm here a lot anyway interesting yeah um well chris we have a little game that we want to play called do you know me we want to get to know have a little game we want to play called Do You Know Me? We want to get to know you a little bit more than we have. And then we'll dive into some, we'll see where these questions take us. We're a big believer on this show that small, random, benign questions can lead to deeper conversations. Oh, I bet.

And Rochelle and I are going to decide. Who knows Chris Spakowski? All right. A little bit more. Let's do it. Might be challenging because Chris is a bit of a closed off person. Oh, yeah. And who doesn't like to. He's not closed off.

A little bit. 33. That floors me. That is a good suit. I mean, you're still. You were like that that i was my first season i was that age oh wow is that crazy how it is i think and that's you're gonna see that again because it shifts right on andy's season i was still generally i was one of the older guys but there were a handful of guys my age yeah but like i like I would say the average age was 28-ish. Andy was 27 at the time.

Right. So that kind of made sense. I think there might have been one or two guys who were 25, 26. Oh. You know? Yeah. That's interesting.

I remember Emily's season when she was the best, right? Wasn't she like 24? We were the same age. She was 25. So she was super young. Yeah. So you had a bunch of younger guys. And you see that where it's just like i mean you're gonna see that guarantee a couple guys from this season dylan jpj or whatever who knows these relationships or how

they work out but fast forward three or four more years one or all these guys gonna come on and there'll be the old timers and they'll just be turning 30 it comes full circle man how's the baby to the old man real quick yeah so uh it's gonna change and we'll see you know um peter's what 26 27 i don't know how old his women are gonna be but like they'll be young they're gonna be young i hope it i hope it starts getting older i agree the young creates a lot of fun drama but i i think you see it with a lot of people it's like i mean again not to condescend or whatever i hope i don't know how these relationships gonna go it's their heart in general yeah uh that they they start but like it's even harder when these people are

jumping into relationships of the pressure of anything you have the social media and then just as a viewer you watch it back and just like, I don't know if I, it's harder to digest. And I would like to see it skew like late twenties and mix it up a little bit. But I do, I think it's been fun that to have the, I like that they mix it up. I just hope they don't live in that.

How old were you when you were the bachelor? 35. I mean, I think that's like great age. Great age. I think that's like, that i think that's like that should be generally the norm yeah but it still didn't work out ben i don't think that has one has nothing to do with the other ben was uniquely mature when he was young um he's an old soul sean was a good one um and then yeah it can vary all righty i'm ready don't quite answer yeah we're gonna ask the question you're gonna let

it marinate you can have a poker face and we'll just debate does chris sleep naked chris is not sleeping i'm sure chris has naked. I think he does. You think on a regular basis, more often than not, his balls are just kind of flopping on the sheets. Yeah, I think they are. What do you think, Nick? I don't think, no. He's a wild man. I think he's a little bit of a wild man.

I think most of the time you do not sleep naked. I'm guessing you sleep in some sort of undergarment. You don't think you sleep with much undergarment. Oh, just underwear, underwear, some boxers, maybe sweatpants,

extra long t-shirt. Yeah. Just the balls is like tripping from the end of the t-shirt. I'm going to say yes. Generally, probably underwear. No. Yes.

He sleeps naked. Isn't that the question? I'm going to say no. You say yes. Okay. I do not sleep naked oh disappointing you were projecting your desires not thinking logical right there rochelle has chris called their mom this week oh i thought you were gonna do today it said today but because

he got in an accident so he might have called his mom in the accident. Well, what do you want to be? Do you want to be today or this week? Today. I want to know if he called his mom when he got in the Thunderbender. He definitely didn't. I think he did. I'm going to say no.

Yes. So I didn't talk to mom today, but I definitely talked to her just about every day. You do? Every day. Every day. Oh, my gosh. Now, you will call your mom later today to be like, I got in an accident and then I went on this shitty podcast.

Exactly. Well, I wouldn't tell my mom I got an accident because she would freak out. So are you pretty close with your parents? Extremely close. You're very close. That's so cute. You have parents who are together, loving family. Wow.

And yet you need to like leave the city from time to time. I just go sometimes. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. That's cute. Is she proud of you? Is she proud I just go sometimes, yeah. Interesting. That's cute. Is she proud of you? Is she proud of you? She's proud.

Yeah. When people ask that question, it always seems like, why are they, wouldn't they not be? Why shouldn't they be? I don't know. Well, I mean,

people who take non-traditional paths, it's always interesting to me. I'm the only one that's taken a non-traditional path. Like my sister is married to like her high school sweetheart and both of my sisters are married to like people, you know, guys they've known their

whole lives pretty much. Oh my gosh. And then here's me, you know, just. Yeah. It's always like that question too. It's just like, are you okay? I know. I know it sounds that way, but I asked because my parents.

I mean, I wasn't until you asked. Right. Like when someone's having a panic attack, like, are you okay? Like my parents are still like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? Yeah. So I kind of, that's why a panic attack. Like, are you okay? Like my parents are still like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? So I kind of, that's why I'm curious. Two nothing. No, wait, I'm sorry.

I said no. You said, what'd you say? Yeah, he called this morning. Two nothing, Nick. But technically I feel like if you, you would have won had you said a week. I would have still said no. I didn't realize,

I wouldn't have guessed that Chris talks to his mom that often. See, all the time. That's so cute. Is Chris in the picture on their phone's lock screen? No, is blank. So is Katie in the picture? Is Katie in the picture on their phone's lock screen? Is Katie part of Chris's screen saver?

I got to double check. Don't change it quick. No. You're going to say no? Chris needs his space. I'm going to say yes, because he's gone a lot, so he needs that little reminder. Definitely not. Katie is definitely not on a screen.

So it's a picture of my niece and my dog. Oh, niece and dog. That's good. I think that's a little aggressive. The niece and the dog? No. That's good. I think that's a little aggressive. The niece and the dog? No. That's very sweet. It's too cute.

It's great. No, but like, yeah. Putting your fiance in the locker room? Even your wife, you know? Yeah. It's like, it's on my, it's right there. Are we so, I feel like. It's usually the girl being like, put me on your phone. That's what I'm like, it's right there. Are we so in? I feel like. It's usually the girl being like.

That's what I'm saying. I feel like if it's happening, a guy is doing it to appease their significant other. And I feel like already you're having some problems. It's like a family picture with like the kids and stuff. I think that's cool. If you're married with the kids, you get the whole Christmas photo.

Great. But it's just like before that, it's a little much. That's just me. I agree. Can Chris name five states that begin with the letter M? What do you think? I think he better be.

I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say yes too because he travels so much. Yeah. M's a tough state to travel to though. Oh yeah. That's a lot of Chris. Go for it. Five states.

So we got Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Missouri. Oh, that's a four off the bat. I would rather. And then what do we have? Wait, did I say Minnesota? Yeah, you did. Minnesota. I can think of another one.

You can't? I can. Maine, Michigan. Yep. There you go. Nice. There's your five. Nice.

Wait, is there only five? Are there six? I don't know. It's a good question. It said, can you name five? Because I'll actually be impressed with myself if there's only five. It didn't say the five states. I'm going to look it up.

Is there a six? I don't know. If there's a five it didn't say the the five i'm gonna look it up uh is there a six i don't know there's a six i don't know it i'm i'm sure we could figure it out if there is has chris been to church in the past year has chris been to church in the past year i feel like his parents go to church if he's gone he's gone like it's been when he's home. When he's home. For like Easter or Christmas Sunday. I don't think his friends in Denver are going to church. I'm going to augment this question. Augment it. Has Chris been to church in the past year not on Christmas or Easter Sunday?

Yes. I think his family goes every week. He's only got baptism. He's Polish. Very Catholic. Catholic? Polish people tend to be Catholic. Hmm. I don't think he's Catholic. Wow. What's your answer, Nick? I'm going to say he has at some point

in the past year. Well, that's what I was going to say. But that's fine. This is not about disagreeing. I'm going to say he has it, but he's not Catholic. Okay. I don't... I mean, Nick, you pretty much nailed it. Oh, damn it! So, not only that, I'm going to a baptism has it, but he's not Catholic. Okay. I don't. I mean, Nick, you pretty much nailed it. Oh, damn it. So not only that, I'm going to a baptism in a week for my niece because I'm the godfather. I am Catholic and I am Polish.

Oh, wow, Nick. You're a little detective. Wait, I have the answer to the M question. There are eight states. There are eight? There's three more to go? Oh, hold on. Hold on.

Here they are. Maryland. Wait, wait, wait. Oh, hold on. Hold on. Here they are. Maryland? Wait, wait, wait. No, wait, wait. Maryland. I lived there. Maryland. Literally my license from Maryland.

Oh, no. My license is from Maryland? You didn't name that one? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's bad. So that's six. There's two more.

Montana. Montana. Seven. Mississippi. Montana. Seven. Mississippi. Mississippi. Mississippi. I was thinking about that until I got put on the spot to name five. It's hard, right? Those were all in my mind.

Can you name the capitals of any of those states? Yeah. I mean, Annapolis is the capital of Maryland. That's the hardest one. What about Montana? Is it? No. Hell no.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Why do you know that? I know all the 50 state capitals. He's been waiting a long time. Fifth grade test. For this. In the fifth grade.

It's Jackson's Mississippi, right? Jackson, Mississippi. And then what's Minnesota? Dull, is it? It is. St. Paul? St. Paul. Missouri is. Paul. St. Paul. Missouri is...

No. Is it Kansas? I don't think it's Kansas City. Is it? I think it's Kansas City. Oh, this is riveting podcast. I don't think I was going to have to think this much. I bet there's actually, shockingly,

Rochelle, I think a lot of people listening are like, I fucking know that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They're probably yelling at the screen. They're yelling at the screen. Does Chris own... uh rochelle i think a lot of people listening are like i i fucking know that yeah oh yeah they're probably yelling at the screen yelling the screen does chris own a pair of cowboy boots no yes i think he's gone to stagecoach he got some cowboy boots so he could go i don't think chris even likes stagecoach i think he secretly loves country music. Go. All right. I do own a pair of boots. Yes. I went to school in Vegas, so there was like the rodeo and a lot of country stuff going

around there. So I bought a pair of boots. Hell yeah. But I haven't gone to stagecoach. I do like country, but not like, you know. But yeah. All right. Been to a rodeo.

Rochelle is on the board. Does Chris know the brand of underwear they are wearing oh yeah he's fresh chris buchowski's fresh what if i'm not wearing oh i'm not see wait really yeah i've recently decided to not. No, Nick. Recently. Why? It breathes. You're lying. Well, I mean, there's no way to show you. I thought it was getting really weird and inappropriate. I am not wearing underwear right now. Okay, that sounds chafey.

You don't chafe? No, quite the opposite. In these hot summer LA months, I find that I just get a little bit more breathing room than otherwise. Wow. Okay. Do you know the brand of underwear? And he said maybe he's not wearing underwear.

I do know the brand of underwear I'm wearing. Yes. Care to share? Saks. Saks? Saks Fifth Avenue? No, Saks like a Canadian underwear brand. Oh, like ball sacks yeah no no s-a-x-x but ball sacks yeah yeah yeah i don't think it's a coincidence never even thought of that actually that's very good that's gotta be why right yeah

has chris ever changed a flat tire? Of course. He's from the Midwest. He's Polish. Midwest, but he went to school in Vegas. I don't think they're changing tires. Chris has definitely changed a tire.

I think no. I have. I don't think my old man will let me not leave the house if I didn't know how to change a flat tire. Yeah. It's just like, I mean, I, I, I bet if I didn't know how to change a flat tire. Yeah, it's just like, I mean, I bet if you asked that question about me,

you would assume that you never have. I'm far more handier than most people would think. That's the same for me too. And I think, again, like Midwest, like I'm not like, there's just certain things you learn. Yeah. Like I know how to change my oil. I don't now.

Right. I would never change my oil. don't now right like i would never change my but i could do it yeah i can like hang shelves and like i can do the basics when it comes to carpentry and i'm not great at it and i wouldn't count on myself to do like a bang-up job but i can hang a tv i can mount a tv i can hang shelves i can use a level and a drill same everyone listening is just like so excited right now. Now I'll get to the point where like I can do this and I'm like inspired to do it because people think I can't do it. But then I'll start it and I'll be like, why am I doing this?

I'll be like, let's call like Thumbtack. Yeah, like what's going on here? Like 150 bucks? Yeah, come mount the TV. Let's go. Right? I mean, actually, I do quite enjoy mounting a TV. Yeah, it's tricky though. I mean, making sure it's level is a mean actually i do quite enjoy mounting a tv yeah it's it's

tricky though i mean making sure it's level is it's a battle you just have to have a level yeah that's true this is the sexiest conversation we've ever had on this podcast i can't tell if you're being sarcastic no i'm being serious i feel like everyone listening is going to be like oh my god uh a level you just have to use a level most people i don't think i think the level for the people who aren't handy don't even know a level exists. It's true. They're like, well, I guess we'll just kind of,

does it look straight? Yeah. Now, are you able to drop the wires behind the wall? Like fish them down? That I'm not good at. I usually cheat it and I'll just get the guard in front. You know how to do that? We'll see.

That's where I made a mistake. He thought he knew. I did that and like, and I just couldn't get the wires down and it was a disaster. I'm not that handy and I probably could figure it out, but I'm not that interested

in being that handy. But I do know how to mount a wall on TV. I do know how to find a stud behind the wall. Yep. It's important. A lot of sexual. Yeah.

Seriously. I'm a stud finder and I can drill a hole in the wall and I can make sure it's level and mounted and it's very secure and it won't. All right. Wow. I have mounted all my walls. Not all evenly though. No, no.

All evenly. Chris, thank you so much for coming thanks for having me it's been a lot of fun i feel like the world's finally gotten to know the true well-rounded chris bakowski what are what are your takeaways your thoughts what are your final thoughts what do you want to leave the audience with words of wisdom from the great chris bakowski who's learned a lot about tv life and love man I tell you um be true to yourself very basic stuff but be honest be true to yourself and always remember where you come from and who you are and don't try to be someone that someone else wants you to be and what's the

within that what's the one thing that you could make people aware of because I think that's true and so often I know it's a cliche but often we don't and what's the thing that you could make people aware of because i think that's true and it's so often i know it's a cliche but often we don't and what's the thing that could stop us from in that moment of that crossroad that we'll get to i'm going to beam who i am or i'm going to be someone i'm not at the risk for the sake of trying to be to try to gain something what's that one thing in that moment where you're at that crossroad that in the past you gave into that temptation versus now where you didn't? What's something that people can remind themselves of? I don't think there's anything specific.

I think it's just thinking a little more in depth and remembering there's a lot more substance of things than taking an easy road somewhere else and just thinking more long-term instead of short-term. See, I like that. That was, I was getting that, the long-term instead of short-term see i like that that was i was getting that the long term yeah it's like uh i think as a society we now we think more in the moment we i love the instant gratification people can't see past the moment or tomorrow and when people ask me is it for me and i don't know how you feel but the thing that

i value the most and the thing that i will equate to having longevity and success over the longterm was thinking longterm, not be reactionary to not get so mad in the moment to not point fingers and just, all right, this is not great now, but how do I'm going to make decisions based off of longterm. And that's really served me well. And I think that's a,

that's something that a lot of people don't. And I think we, we learn as we go. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. Because you're always thinking in the moment, listen, I'm one that I get frustrated,

I get upset, I get disappointed. But I think if you're able to kind of pull back and just think more long-term, you can reassess the situation and make it a lot better even short-term. Yeah. And some of that comes from like experiences, right? Of learning, you had the luxury of,

I did this in the past it didn't go well so i'm going to think experience term now um but yeah and then taking advice from people that hopefully have been there before it's not just also hard to do it is it's hard to take advice from anybody because you you you think of it as criticism yeah you really do it's hard to take advice from people are have you always been that way or because some people usually can only learn from their own mistakes and some people well hard are can learn from other people's has that been a shift in your life definitely i think i'm a lot i do obviously i've learned from my mistakes but i i do take people's you know advice into account more than i did previously

100 well chris thanks again for coming best of luck to you and katie i wish you all the happiness and love in the world and i hope it works out i hope uh if there's one relationship to come from this uh season that doesn't end i'm rooting for you guys i mean i'm rooting for everyone but uh i hope i hope it works out. I mean, you're not getting any younger. I'm just kidding. You're actually super fucking young. You always make me feel better about myself.

Thanks, man. Is that because you are younger, but I mean, if I were going to try to bring you down, I could say, well, we look the same. I know. I agree. I agree. I agree. I've really enjoyed it. Thanks for coming, Chris. Thanks could say, well, we look the same. I know. I agree. I agree. I agree. I've really enjoyed it. Thanks for coming,

Chris. Thanks for listening guys. As always, don't forget to rate us five stars on iTunes. Be sure to sending your questions for our Ask Nick episodes on Monday. And if you are tuning in to catch a little bit of Chris, we do a lot of great things on other episodes, both on Mondays and on Wednesdays.

Check us out. Have a great week. As always, we appreciate you listening and take care. Bye-bye.