The Viall Files - E526 Going Deeper with Justin Baldoni Plus Prince Harry, The Menu, and Death

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files, Going Deeper Edition! Today we are joined by actor, director, producer, speaker, and entrepreneur, Justin Baldoni! Before getting into the interview, we break down Prince Harry’s 60 Minutes Interview with Anderson Cooper and the aftermath of his appearance. We reflect on feeling empathy for Harry, worried if he’s opened too many cans of worms, donating to charity with money that isn’t yours, and acting out after repressing everything for years. We then break down the movie “The Menu” and get into the film’s depiction of death and debating if an afterlife exists. We then bring on Justin for his interview, talking about insecurity, interfacing with masculinity, learning from your father, and the importance of young boys learning emotional intelligence. We also talk about the difference between acceptance and accountability, writing about being enough, combatting the feeling of directionlessness, how men can truly be vulnerable, and raising a son with empathy in mind. We also bring on our Texting Office Hours caller who after learning that she was cheated on, takes extreme public measures. Recognizing she may have been toxic, our caller wonders how to best move forward from the situation. We then close by talking about what makes Nick and Justin cry.  “No one told me I was enough.” If you are interested in running a book club in your city, send an email to: [e-mail]  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to our new email address [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  If you would like to get some advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Office Hours” in the subject line!  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com Support a Local Bookstore: https://bookshop.org/books/don-t-text-your-ex-happy-birthday-and-other-advice-on-love-sex-and-dating-9798212185622/9781419755491 THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: BetterHelp: If you want to live a more empowered life, therapy can get you there. Visit http://www.BetterHelp.com/viallfiles today to get 10% off your first month. StoryWorth: Get to know your loved ones better and preserve those special moments forever with StoryWorth! Right now, for a limited time, you can save $10 on your first purchase when you go to http://www.StoryWorth.com/viall! Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @justinbaldoni See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You can listen to The Vile Files ad-free on Amazon Music. We have some exciting news here at The Vile Files. We are expanding our empire and adding a new show. That's right. This is going to be a live show. It is called Better Date Than Never. It is going to be your go-to place for all things dating. We'll discuss everything from the pregame to the music you can get ready to,

new hair and makeup trends, wardrobe ideas. We can have a little phone friends segment. We can have callers give advice. We'll obviously have Nick give his signature advice. We'll walk you through your date. If you have dates going on like the next weekend or if you want to recap some dates you just went on, let's talk about who you're dating, where you're going, what is up. If you've ever wanted us in your back pocket for your dates, if you've ever wanted us in your back pocket for your dates if you've ever wanted to pre-game your dates with us this is what it's for if you've ever been a part of someone who has a close friend's instagram story where they spill the tea about the dates

they go on that is going to be this we are going to get updates from people post date we're going to help people hype them up pre-date this is going to be your go-to spot for all thing dating we're there with you we're rooting for you it's a community we're creating a community around you know specifically you know dates or people are going on and trying to hear people's stories but give people tips things like that but but specifically around going on dates interacting on the specific dates, all very dating, less relationship, more dating focused type of show. And to listen to it, all you have to do is download the app called AMP. Unfortunately, you have to have an iPhone.

It is only currently available on the Apple App Store. So it's a free download. Check it out. And it will be every Thursday at 9 p.m. Eastern, 6 p.m. Pacific. It'll be a ton of fun. Join us. Audience members will be able to come in and share, be very interactive.

Again, it's live, so you'll get to hear a lot of things and more. You'll get to hear a lot of things that you're not hearing on the Vile Files. It's an unedited. It's a little more loose. It's like dating can be hellish. Let's make it fun together.

Pour yourself a drink. And it's all premiering on the 19 let's make it fun together pour yourself a drink and it's all premiering on the 19th of this month 19th of january so we hope that you all join us uh so check it out it'd be a ton of fun something to do to wind down have a glass of wine with us whatever it is you do and you get to interact with us live you know it'll be we'll be right there you know it'll be fun so we hope to see you all there what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files going deeper edition i'm nick joined by ali and amanda ladies how are you doing what's up shawty loose i think is the answer i think we're feeling loose i feel like that there's like a sexual

connotation to the word loose anyone else i feel like if someone over the age of 55 says it, then maybe. But when I say it, I'm like, she's loose. What's the most intimidating thing about you? Allie. What's your badass alter ego? I think the most intimidating thing about me is that I really

am good on my own. I'm very independent and I don't give a shit a lot of the time or like I'm willing to just be like hey yo I also say I feel like you have like a military level of precision in terms of like you are like I feel like you can be I just imagine you like if you were a superhero I could imagine you, like, if you were a superhero, I could imagine you being this, like, knife thrower. Ooh, I like that. You know, like, I feel like you're put together, you're on it, and you are, like, focused in. Thank you.

I thought it would be, like, spreadsheets. Okay, well, we have that, too. There needs precision there. But literally, Nick called me over uh when was that over christmas and you were like i'm hoping your like data entry is gonna help me out on this it was some finance question oh yeah and i pulled up january of 2021 and i was like okay so on this date you paid me this i need to recall something that i knew she would keep track of yeah i had it it was right there and i was like yeah because when byron sent me my tax information after my first year i noticed it was off and i had to have everyone

resent their tax forms it's great attention to detail thank you so it's a great quality anybody can sure no i don't actually have an answer the most like intimidating like I don't know you have an extensive vocabulary you're very good at articulating things I think um no no no no no no that's nice I just like don't know and I don't I'm like could I weaponize my vocabulary I don't know I didn't it doesn't yeah I will pretentious people to death. No, I just feel like you have a nice way of explaining things, articulating, relating to people. You're very good at. Yeah, I think sometimes.

Clearly, I'm not because I can't even finish a fucking sentence. I'm working on it. No, it's all it's all flowing. I think sometimes I can be nice to people in situations where like I think they're kind of shaken by it. And I think it kind of throws them off. Your niceness? Yeah. I think so.

No. Nice. Nice. Nice. Nice. You're nice. No but love yourself. Like I feel like in settings where it's like supposed to supposed to be, like, kind of vaguely competitive.

And I don't, I'm not like, I'm going to fuck with your head. I just think it's like, if people are coming at things from a very adversarial place. And then you, like, acknowledge, like, on a human to human level are just like, hey, like, we're both humans. And, like, I am going to be, like, I would like to be nice to you as another human I'm coming into contact with. I feel like it can really like. Catch people off guard? Yeah. And it's like where do you go from there? Like what do you do to me?

Do people think you have an alternative motive you think? I think sometimes maybe they're like suspicious but I feel like it usually like comes out. I feel like the way I'm nice to people is by being like a little weird. Like I'm like. Like I don't know. Like I think I'm very much like I am. I'm like the way I'm nice to people is by being a little weird. I don't know. I think I'm very much like, I'm a freak show. And I care about you, and you

can be a freak show too. It's a very warm and open space. For example, on my couch last evening, I felt very okay sharing many things. Speaking of last night, you were watching... Why were we together? Why, you ask? First, we went to improv. Then, we got Chipotle.

Third, we watched Prince Harry on 60 Minutes. We did. You should do more voices on this show. Okay. You're good at voices. Thank you. I'll just start delivering things in weird accents. I should have done the Bachelor bios.

Each girl got a different missed opportunity. I invite you to do more. Thank you. Thank you for opening that door. He believes in you. Thank you so much. Anyway, you were saying? We watched Prince Harry on 60 Minutes.

And we were a bit, we were a bit jarred by first, when they panned to Anderson Cooper sitting and there's like the book behind him. Every time, like before a commercial break, Amanda would be like, jump scare. Like it was just a very jarring editing situation. Which I think it speaks to the fact that the interview itself, I think a lot of the good moments had already been leaked. Like I think like when he talked about his mom, I think that was very emotional, very raw.

There were some details that absolutely stomped on my heart. The fact that he, until the age of 23, I believe is what he said, thought that she was potentially just in hiding from the British press and would come and let them know at some point. He's clearly experienced some trauma. And my biggest takeaway was, I just feel for the guy. That being said, I just feel like he needs to that being said i just feel like he needs needs to stop stop i didn't think he needed to stop i think it's just you know i like it's like i love my

bald ugly brother it was like you know who i call willie oh no i'm not talking shit like but he's like beat me up and he like he it's you know. And then the title of the book, Despair, it's just... Listen, he just happens to be the second born in a weird, fucked up family. They didn't let him on the plane to go see his dying grandmother. And by the time he got up there, she was gone. No, listen, yeah. I was horrified. I wouldn't stop talking about that.

I was like, Amanda, we got to commercial break. And I was like, let's rehash. It's a you know there's a lot of there's a lot of fucked up families out there and they are they're royals so they're royally fucked up you know like yeah yeah the bigger the stage the bigger the problem you know i just go back to like we were talking about it when we were breaking it down the the the documentary it's just it's just it's break it down, the documentary, it's just, it's just, it's, I saw a tweet.

What did I, I sent it to you guys. So it says, sometime in the years ahead, Harry may look back as I did and wish he could unspeak what he had said. Patti Davis, an author and the daughter of Ronald Reagan, writes in a guest essay, not every truth has to be told to the entire world.

Yeah, and I think he's going to look back. And regret it. And regret it. I don't know. He's made a shit ton of money. True. So there's that. And I do, like, it's just, he's making so much money doing this all while really talking some shit.

And it is still one side of the story. I mean, and maybe it's all true, you know, the plane story. But it's still one side of the story i mean yeah and and maybe it's all true you know the whole the plane story but it's still one side of the story and i don't think even if even in his mind if he's like i'm telling you exactly what happened he's just telling us exactly what happened from his point of view and i think there's always other point of views. And it's just coming across as really shitting on your family. Most of his supporters, I feel like, because there's a lot of people

who have fallen out of touch with their family and rightfully so. And maybe, you know, I've talked about this a lot. I talk about this in this episode with Justin. I, of all the blessings and privileges I've been given this a lot. I talk about this in this episode with Justin. I, of all the blessings and privileges I've been given in my life, the love of my parents and how they raised me is the thing I am most grateful for, followed closely by my height. But yeah, and I know a lot of people don't have that type of benefit, but all families I I think, are messed up. And even my family,

we have turmoil and ups and downs. And I just think when it comes to family, good or bad, you only have one. And it's of my belief, and it's just my humble opinion that I'm always going to try to have some contact in relationship with my family, no matter what, no matter whether I like them or dislike them and how. And maybe I'm in a privileged point of view to say that because ultimately it's been net positive. But he's just really shitting on his family. His argument was like, they are talking shit. They're just doing it through the media.

It's like, OK i guess it felt like there was kind of pov constipation in the sense that he'd had all of these years of feeling like his point of view nobody cared nobody would listen to it he was like really like kind of shackled in terms of like never being able to like explain have his reality validated don't complain don't explain exactly And so I think right now he's finally like, okay, it finally went nuclear. So I, you know, I'm sharing my viewpoint and I imagine there must be just like so much that needs to come rushing out of him that. It's called therapy, you know? But I think so much of it probably has to do with like.

Not in 16 minutes. But I think there's just like, I think there's just this self-preservation of being like you tried to like disgrace my wife on the public stage and disgrace me and like you try like you tried to bury me and it's like let's go motherfuckers you want to bury people like i have some stuff to say like get your shovel totally i mean I mean, yes, exactly. But I, you know, in terms of the most righteous approach, like, yeah, revenge. Sure. Like it. But it's it's falling into that category of more.

The best TikTok I've seen is, you know, in Mean Girls when Regina prints off the burn book pages and throws them and they like made it Prince Harry, like Oprah interview, documentary, 60 minutes, the book. Like it was the most perfect example of it just keeps coming. But you're right. That's how it's coming across to me. Is this more, there's not, there's not some like altruistic reason he's doing this. It's just a tell all about his family and he wants his point of view across and he's angry and he's mad and he's dealt with some trauma and his mom died and, and, you know, he has a right to be very upset. I really feel for him. I feel for what has happened to him. I feel for what he's going through now. And I feel for him

in the future. You know, like I feel for Megan and Harry and the fact that like between both their parents, they only seem to have a relationship with her mom. You know, and that's sad. I'm sad for them for that reason. Doria is putting in the legwork. I know. It's a lot on Doria's shoulders. But I do think they should stop, you know, from one humble person's point of view.

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I do wonder if it's him trying to just be like, fuck this institution there. They perpetuate so much harm. I've been I'm the one who has like the best vantage point to see them. And so I just want to like I want to dismantle it like I'm doing it. This is not necessarily because I think I agree where there's like some of this is like a therapy thing about like coming to terms on your own time and with your own emotions and reactions to that situation. I don't think that personal work needs to be done on such a world stage, but I wonder if he's doing it on the world stage to be like, no, you don't get to do this anymore. Like, uh-uh.

My question is, now that they've done the documentary, now that his book was coming out this month, kind of one of those things where if you were going to say things, if you were going to tell, those are your opportunities. Are they going to come out with a sequel? Or are they done?

I don't know. And I guess it's, he's doing this for him and his family, and that's fine, but that's it. He's not doing it for any other greater good. You can't convince me otherwise. I think he's doing it, and I'm not saying that this is necessarily

for the greater good, but I would imagine my take on it is that his thesis is actions have consequences. And I think he's like, you did some fucked up actions and like, here are the consequences. I mean,

we all feel that when we're feeling wronged and we want revenge. He's doing this for revenge. And I, you know, and for money. You don't call it revenge

when you, when like, it was altruistic. But when you put someone in jail, like a murderer in jail that's not called revenge that's called enacting justice i'm not saying that this is enacting justice but it is your i think justice for him because he is judge jury and executioner when it comes to like you know himself and how he thinks people should treat him and he's based on

his family's roles they can't even act as witnesses i think he thinks he's judge jury and he's like the media is the executioner like but for him how he's handling this you know what i'm saying he we all do this we all are judged during executioner for like who we decide we let into our lives and who we spend our time with and who we invest with and how we treat people who we think have wronged us or whatever it is and he has the right to do that all i'm saying is and that's fine he's doing it for himself great i just there's no i don't think he gets like some sort of like good for you like he i don't think he's carrying any mantle you know for anyone else but himself and his family and good for him you know i don't they

haven't announced have they have they donated any of this wealth that they have accumulated over the past year i mean they have their various, I think, philanthropic pursuits. Sure. Also, something that I mentioned that I don't think people knew because you didn't know it, was when we were watching the 60 Minutes and there's footage of their wedding, Megan was allocated a budget for her dress.

Her dress was very simple. The veil was, I think... Is that bad? What? I don't know how that works. Is that normal? That's normal. That's normal. Like, Kate was was given the same as well they get to work with designers they have say in that but megan's dress was simple and it didn't take up the full budget and from what

everything i've read she took the remaining chunk of her dress budget and donated it like it wasn't a plot like still taxpayer money so she donated taxpayers money i don't think you get a medal for that i want her to donate her money i know i'm just pointing it out because i don't think that's like a like but nobody knew that about her and even like i don't think that's a big deal prince harry when they won a lawsuit i believe this is what i'm i believe this is all correct there was a lawsuit to one of the press, press, one of the one of the like newspaper company or someone who is publishing things in the UK when they still live there. And I believe there was like photos of them taken while they were at their property or some very intrusive situation where photos were being shot

through windows. Unacceptable. I believe they sued them for a certain amount of money. And then all the headlines were Harry and Meghan make all this money off of this lawsuit for these photos. Harry then turned around and donated all of that money. They didn't keep that. So it was more so for him making a statement like, do not come for my wife and our personal life by shooting through windows and doing things you're not legally allowed to do. But he didn't keep that. That's good. When they were sold. But I don't think the not spending taxpayer money

and then donating that, I don't know if that's much of it. But where was it supposed to go? She could have used it. Yeah. The tax, I don't know. If it's taxpayer money, well, they could spend it on whatever,

something else. You know what I'm saying? But they didn't spend it on something else. But you're acting like, I don't know how they allocate this money or this budget, but any business you run, you have a budget for things. Hey, we got a budget for this. And if you go below budget, it's not like use it or lose it. You know, it's not like this money, oh, you get to pocket it. It's just, no, I guess we can use it on other things.

You know, maybe they could use it for some sort of like social work program or I don't know. But what I'm saying, it's not her money to give away. It was her money to use. You know what I'm saying? It was her money to use on a dress. And I don't think, for me, other people can disagree. I don't know if you get a bunch of brownie points for donating not your money and not spending as much as you could. I mean, it's nice. I mean, it's thrifty and I guess that's great, you know, but like, I'm more of the 140, like 200 million or plus that they've been making, you know, and I have no problem. Get yours. But like, all I'm saying is they're doing this for themselves and they're not doing it for some sort of alter it's a greater good it is a self-serving uh endeavor and i have

no like you know most of the things i do are self-serving but i don't know if it's anything more than that i think maybe that's the idea just like on a broad scale as humans like we try to rectify the things that we feel like have been most like oppressive to us and so we kind of project like oh if this has been a really intense struggle for me like i am fighting on behalf of everybody not having to go through this and it's like very focused on a personalized thing but yeah i don't know i do just think the part of the documentary they talked about like social media and like the way that people believe that like i think that's something like we talk about on the show all the time about like reality tv good reminder yeah like i think there were benefits a good reminder that don't

believe everything you read or see you know i think a lot of people who who have fallen out with their family or don't have who have pushed back or set boundaries with their family i bet the people watch those people watching this felt seen and heard i don't think harry did it for those people this is a non-sequitur but between the three of us judge jury executioner who's what uh i have an answer okay i don't know but i want other people's answers first no off of instinct i feel like jury because you always bring up other opinions yeah you're always i would say you're always fighting for the common man and i would say nick's the executioner i was gonna have to be that's what i think because i think you're the executioner i would like to be but nick's the one with the name on the wall i'll be the judge

yeah so i just carry out your dirty work i like that great I'm a little like henchman with like an axe you get the job done Ali speaking of Executioner you guys watched The Menu oh my god okay did you watch it or did you not watch it I'm getting the sense that you maybe didn't watch it

I didn't but I watched two seasons of The White Lotus so I can talk about that hey not nothing The Menu is one of those movies that I felt like people told me i meant to see in theaters like my boyfriend's mom was like it's really good you have to see it didn't get the chance to it and then you brought it up and i was like okay fine i'll finally watch it went into it knowing nothing about it which i think was the best way to go in yeah and oh my

god it had my attention the whole way it was a captivating movie that's the thing more than it had my attention the whole way and that a captivating movie that's the thing more than it it had my attention the whole way and that is saying something with movies nowadays yes like i wasn't you know a lot of times we put on movies or tv shows you know i'm on my phone or like i'm distracted or i won't finish like i was all in locked now he tried to talk about something. Babe, shh! I was very captivated by it. And the thing I was most captivated was how they framed death. You know?

And I don't know what the goal of the movie was or when they wrote it. I don't know if it was a critique on the service industry or fine dining or whatever. That didn't really resonate all that much with me but it was more about how they kind of trivialized death because spoiler alert

by the way people die in it um but they they talked about the characters ultimately didn't really seem to push back on the fact that they might die and it really made me and i was like wondering why it really made me like it like what i think that's what bothered me while watching it not bothered me about the movie or like the creative choices but like it it like bothered my soul and and like it made me it like i was thinking about it the next day because i was like you know like i think you know are we afraid to die these people didn't act like they were afraid to die it was just like something to do you know and they talked about death as it was like a creative

choice and they also talked about death as if it wasn't the end of something that it was just like a thing did you like feel that when you were watching that that's really interesting i not necessarily like now that you're saying it i'm thinking a lot more about it i think the way i was sort of framed them not fighting back was kind of the idea that like these are people who are so wealthy and elite that they're just detached from a lot and so there's kind of this like inability to it like the difference between like power versus like actual like functionality and capabilities like do we for example the the man who is also oh my god disconcertingly an absolute

doppelganger to this terrible man this this terrible, terrible man I hooked up with in college. Nicholas Holtz character. Yes. Is he the, is he the main guy who was like with Anna Taylor joy? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God.

Absolute doppelganger to like, to a T and a terrifying way. And also similar in mannerisms child. But I think it was like this whole idea of like, oh, he can be so into food. And then do we want to, I don't want to spoil it.

But the commentary of what happens when he actually tries to cook. I kind of was more framing it through that lens of these people who think because they have a certain level of power and prestige that it will save them when it won't. Like how the critic, the way she tries to negotiate. I thought her character was like, I was like, I want to see her. I want to see the arc of this. Because she started out so pretentious and so poised. Yeah.

Are you guys afraid of dying? Kind of. Do you think about dying? I definitely had like a, when I was in high school, I was very, I mean, I grew up very religious, but I think in high school, like I definitely like was very religious,

more so on a personal level than I was like oh we're getting dragged to church and I just remember thinking about like the thought of there being nothing after dying I'd remember it like for days it like consumed me like it was it was a very depressive thought I don't know why my voice is getting so low hey it's depressive I'm more worried about people I love dying than me dying but it's just like done and when i think about dying i feel i feel bad for like abandoning people like i think a lot about i mean like i there's obviously situations where i feel like if i if i'm ever in a situation where i feel really unsafe and like it kind of like activates that thing like yeah it's like I feel fear but it's not uh

I feel so I I like think I have many intrusive thoughts about my parents and loved ones dying oh my god when I was when this when the man said that he was my uber driver but he wasn't my uber driver and I realized that once I was in the car and the car was locked and I was like my body's ending up in a river tonight like I was like scary we're done I was like this is and the car was locked and I was like my body is ending up in a river tonight. So scary. We're done. I was like this is it. We're done. I will say that's how I realized that I cared about you is like when I first like probably

18 months into this job I started worrying about you dying. Oh my god. I was like huh I care about Nick. Why would you worry about me dying? It's not rational. It's like a fear of like oh these people who are like big parts of my life or who I need. I got to worry about me dying. Gosh.

I will like. How did I die in this? No, it's never like it's never in this fantasy nightmare. No, it's never like a specific like this is going to happen. It's more like, oh, no, like it's about loss more than it is like death, if that makes sense. But I did think the menu is like a crazy movie. The end was like unhinged. I thought from a writer standpoint, I was like. The end was fine. Yeah. It wasn't great. I was like because I didn't feel like and I again had my attention the whole time. Think it's a great movie. Would recommend it wholeheartedly to people. I don't think there was necessarily a payoff at the end,

but I was also thinking I was like, what the fuck would payoff be yeah it was so wackadoo like how would they possibly pay off what they set up yeah I love when you deliver certain words it's never like there's never any rhyme or reason but you have this little like like certain and it just hit it with wackadoo but you've it's happened before where you're like sometimes I get a little loose like it's just like you do this little like oh not the end of the whole philosophical what's your gut tell you when you die i'm going to die on a train no no no no no no no not asking is there something or nothing frequently i just i yeah do you not write enough of trains for that to be the end i just i always had when i was a kid i had like really intense reoccurring nightmares about me dying in train stations.

And I just, I really think I'm going to die on a train. So a station, not even a train? Yeah, I would be on the tracks. It was horrifying. Like a mouse in a maze, but the train tracks. Anyway, back to my question. When you die, what's your gut tell you? Your gut.

Not what you want to believe. Is there something or nothing the thing that resonated most with me as a theory is gut on a gut level is you go back like i don't know how i existed before i was born but i think you returned to whatever state that was that really answered my question yeah what do you mean so so nothing yeah well like i think yeah i don't like you'll have no you imply that there was something. I guess the lack of feeling is sentient. You feel like your consciousness existed before you were born?

I don't know if it did. I'm asking you what your gut tells you. Do you believe in, like, in other lives? Like, when people are like, oh, I was blank in another life. I read the book Many Lives, Many Masters. I'm probably butchering it. It's a book about reincarnation. Really good book.

It really, it sold reincarnation very well. But, okay, do you It's a book about reincarnation. Really good book. It really it sold reincarnation very well. But okay do you think we're aware of reincarnation? Because I'm like what are the odds I'm on my first life

and you guys are also on your first life? Like if reincarnation is a thing it'd be pretty crazy that I hadn't come across someone who like how would they

make sure people don't talk about it? Like how would they keep it secret? I don't know. It's like a subconscious thing. My mom had a theory where when you encounter people,

like there was a girl I went to high school with who was, I mean, we were obviously teenagers at that point, but she was just wise beyond her years.

And my mom was saying something along the lines of like when you encounter people like that, it must mean like they've had. Your mom believes in reincarnation? I don't,

it was a comment she made. I don't know. We can ask her. But less so of, oh, I i was a bug but maybe more so like if you finish a life again very catholic thing but if you were to finish a life and you end up in purgatory which is the space between heaven and hell maybe part of that maybe that purgatory process maybe part of that is going back and doing it again to learn those lessons do you believe in something or nothing what's your gut not i don't know it's something i like wrestle with i don't know

i want to ask you here's the shit out of me this question very quickly there's this book called elsewhere that i think in terms of if there is something it was the premise of it is like you end up on a boat and then you go back to like the underworld, not in like a hell connotation way, but like the death. And then you age backwards. And there are these things called the like there's like viewing booths where you can see what's happening on Earth. And like some people become like addicted to them or they can't help. But but it's called Elsewhere. It's such a good book.

And I think that was really interesting to me about this idea. So she goes back and her grandmother, who died several years ago, is the only one who's there because the main character dies in a really upsetting accident at 16. And so her grandmother is now a much younger version of herself. And that I found, like the Benjamin Button, like, oh, like the symmetry of you age and then you age backwards. And then when you're a little baby, you get sent off in the ocean. I thought that was compelling. Something or nothing. I think my was compelling. Do you, something or nothing? I think my gut's more leaning towards nothing. But, you know, I don't know.

But like maybe there's some sort of energy. I believe in energy. I feel like there has to be or else it's just, I'm going to be too depressed. I believe in energy and I don't know what that means. But I do feel like an energy between people and things does that mean there's like an afterlife i certainly want to believe that's for sure

yeah my dad had a good line where he was saying you know even if there's nothing like a lot of times i feel like especially people who are very religious like people who aren't or like why are you doing all these things and why do you do x y and z if there's nothing or if there's all this evidence that there isn't something or just like one big bang thing and he said why not like exactly he was like i'd rather live my life in this kind of i guess religious christian way if it means i'm being a good person and i love that yeah reach the end of my life and be like well guts guess i was wrong when i was you know going to church every Sunday as a Catholic that was always my mindset

so I was like I'll never know if I'm wrong but if I'm right yeah might as well hit you a bit if there is a God

I know I'm not him and you know I guess we'll see you know if you're God no I'm just saying like

I just know I'm not kind of thing but I used to say I know there's a God all I know is I know there's a God and I know I'm not him in a. But I used to say, I know there's a God. All I know is I know there's a God and I know I'm not him. In a sense of like, you know, or her.

Time to poll our audience. If you are on your seventh life, please let me know. It's like our CTAs where it's like, are you reincarnated? Ask Nick about it. Send in an email

and ask Nick at thevilepiles.com. If you think you're reincarnated, please. Please email us. We'd love to talk please we'd love to talk we'd love to talk i will say i think of the books called many lives many masters it didn't make me believe in reincarnation but it was like i don't know maybe okay we have a great episode for you justin baldoni joins us to talk about masculinity and how it intersects with relationships and dating. And we have a wild texting office hour call. Oh, my God. A lot of fun.

So we'll be breaking down more bachelor bios and freestyle next week. Lisa Schwartz. That's right. Friend of show. Should be fun. And send in those questions at asknickatthevilefiles.com. Or your reincarnation stories. Or your reincarnation stories. Also, thank you for all the awesome love letters,

catharsis in the notes. Keep those coming. We're very excited to use them. Let's get to Justin. Justin, welcome. Hey. How's it going? It's going wonderfully. I was just noticing that this is not currently what Los Angeles looks like. It is not. No, it's currently rain season. It's been going on for a long time. I feel this is the rainiest winter I've experienced in LA. I've been here for eight years. Yeah, I'm loving it. Yeah, me too. Generally, I like it. I mean, I'm kind of ready for it to be done.

Mm-hmm. The driving, though, though is I feel like people get really overwhelmed. It's the other people. Yeah. I'm from Wisconsin. So like weather and driving has never been that much of an issue. Move out. Yeah. You can just tell people, I feel like people are screaming behind their wheel the way they're

driving. Like they're like, ah, you know, in the rain. We need a dedicated lane of the highway for people who know how to drive in this. Can you imagine just driving past someone and they're just yelling in their car? I did that the other day in like an intersection in North Hollywood because there was like six ways to go. And I tried to turn and it was a one way. And I fully like jaw dropped screaming. I was like anyone who's watching me drive is watching a TV show.

It's great. Well, that's it. Amazing. Here we are. We need it, though. We definitely need the rain. The problem is that because we don't get a lot of rain, we're not built for rain. There's just flooding and mudslides.

Yeah, there's a lot of runoff because the ground's too dry. Exactly, because it doesn't absorb it. I have a truck, and I hydroplane twice on the way here. Oh, no. I guess I'm going to go slower than 65. Well, we're glad you made it here safely. Made it here safely. Happy to be here.

Well, we didn't have you to talk about the weather, which was still fun, but we wanted to talk about masculinity, of which you talk a lot about. Obviously, you have your new book, Boys Will Be Human and Man Enough. It's been out when that come out that came out a year ago a year ago a year ago uh pumping out books yeah this was uh

no yeah we did i did two and i i'm i'm done for a while we have we have a a picture book coming out at the end of next year and that's it nice but that's been done for a while this was really the boys will be human is really the it's been really near and dear to my heart. And yeah, that came out a few months ago, actually. Well, we talk a lot about relationships and dating on this show. We have a large woman audience, but we have our 10 percenters out there. But as it relates to dating and love and relationships and people's pursuit for finding a partner and working through relationships, I think masculinity obviously plays a big role, especially in today's climate and the discussions going

around it. So I thought it'd be a lot of fun to bring you in and talk with you about it because it's something you seem to be very passionate about. And I guess for starters, I'm really just curious, how did you get into this topic? You know, how did you become someone who really became passionate about this topic enough to want to write two books about it and really kind of, in a way, turn it into a part of your career, I suppose? And yeah, so how did that light bulb go on for you and when did that happen? Yeah, thank you for asking that. First of all, I'm a man. And, you know, over the course of my life, I realized how unhappy, how disconnected I was, how I was kind of taught as a young boy to just live in this constricting box. And that anything that I did outside of that box would be deemed unmanly, unmasculine, feminine, if you will. The worst thing that I could ever be called, I remember, as a young boy was a girl.

worst thing that i could ever be called i remember as a young boy was a girl and i didn't ever register that oh well the worst thing that i could be as a young boy is a girl therefore i must kind of almost hate the parts of me that look like girls like the quote-unquote feminine parts of me and then you grow up and for those of us who are who are straight identify as straight we're supposed to then be in relationship with girls while hating the parts of us that look like them. Found myself constantly trying on different suits of armor, different masks. So I was dating when I was younger, saying things I didn't mean, bullying when I was bullied. bullying when I was bullied just always trying to compensate for something trying to like just raise my status in this patriarchal hierarchy if you will of like growing up as a boy and um and just always feeling deeply unsatisfied like there's, I don't feel like there's ever a place for young boys or

for men to just be okay with who we are. We always have to be something more. We have to be working more. We have to be doing more. We have to be lifting more. We have to look better. We have to do this, do this, do this to make more money so that then we can be enough. Nobody ever told me growing up that I was enough just as i was so i i started to kind of dissect that and wonder like okay in relationships like okay why am i acting like this or when i'm around if i'm if i meet a man i'm like puff up my chest a little bit why am i doing that i go home have you ever been around somebody where you've just said something that you don't even believe and then you're like why did i say that

it's just sort of asking myself these questions. And it all led me back to masculinity and the lessons, the, the, the scripts, if you will, that I was given as a young boy that then follow me through adulthood and manhood. And, um, and I just see a lot of the problems that exist in the world, uh, come from this source. In terms of your source, you know, talking about where this kind of came from and how it affected you, where do you feel like you learned your model of masculinity as a young man was,

for me, I think of my upbringing, my parents, how was it for you? Where did you kind of model? Yeah, I think for those of us with fathers, I definitely think we learned from our fathers. I write about in both books. My dad was a really sensitive man so i was really lucky like he was a he was an emotional man he was very sensitive very loving very present and then of course as a young boy you also learn from tv and film and movies and and uh what girls then tell you they want what society

tells girls to want what society tells men we have to be and what was interesting is I found myself actually resenting my dad a lot growing up because he was so sensitive and I wanted my dad to be like the other dads who were hunters and you know fishermen you know worked on jobs and smoked cigarettes and cigars and drank with their buddies and that wasn't my dad my dad was a and fishermen and worked on jobs and smoked cigarettes and cigars and drank with their buddies. And that wasn't my dad. My dad was a businessman who was actually very in touch

with his feelings. He didn't know how to be vulnerable, but he was very emotional. And I didn't learn that from him. Why do you feel like you resented that? Because I was bullied for being sensitive. Gotcha. So you grow up, you emulate the person

that you think is the savior, the hero in your life, the father, and then you your life, the father. And then you kind of, you try to be like that. And then you get real life feedback in your day-to-day life of whether or not that's working. And I had lived in this small town in Oregon where there, it was not, it was, you know, it was not okay to be a sensitive kid. It was not okay to cry. It was not okay to have your feelings hurt or to share that. It wasn't okay to have more friends that were girls unless you were trying to get with them. And so I was like, well, I was annoyed. I was annoyed at my dad for not teaching me how to fight like these other kids' dads or not teaching me how to camp or how to start a fire because he didn't know.

That wasn't his skill set what i didn't realize was that he was actually teaching me the most important skill skill that many of those boys i grew up with probably still don't have to this day and that many boys don't have uh which is emotional intelligence and something that i think is really important for young boys to learn especially as they get into the dating world which brings us back to i think the show that you guys are doing yeah i'm just yeah it's really because it's funny i was reading your book a lot and it was interesting because i actually honestly i found myself having a hard time in some situations relating to it all right let's talk about it i feel very fortunate for like my childhood yeah um and i've never considered myself to be an a kind of guy, I suppose.

Like I've, other than playing sports as a young man, I was a jock, I suppose. But I always was, I liked to dance. I was into fashion, but it never really. How old are you? I'm 42. You're 42. You did great. Good skincare.

Thanks. Likewise. Yeah. But I never really, and I guess maybe because I was independent, I don't know where it comes from, but I was always kind of comfortable with that stuff. With what stuff? Well, the things, not worrying about my interests as it relates to,

like I never hunted. I didn't fish. I wasn't an outdoorsman guy. And I grew up in Wisconsin. So all my peers did. peers have some good friends from kenosha oh really yeah um and so that was not the norm i mean other than getting into high school and being you know it was so you didn't really care about anybody else's approval i well i'm sure at some points I did, but masculinity was nothing I really worried about. I always kind of knew I wasn't an atypical kind of macho guy, you know, and that never really bothered me because I guess I was always confident in myself and other aspects, whether it was be

sports or, uh, other things. I, you know, I think. I think I've been very lucky in terms of things I've been good at or the privileges I've had and things like that. And I attribute a lot of that to the love of my parents and how they raised me. I mean, I remember the first time crying into my mom's arms over a girl. I was in the sixth grade and there's probably been 15 or 20 more times in my life I've done that. It's not something that I've really, and I have memories of my parents always telling me that was an okay feeling. That's great. That was great. I feel very fortunate. But so it was, reading your book and having this conversation, we talk a lot, again, a lot about relationships and dating and we have, you know, men listen to this and it's just like, how, how do we get men, how do we make that the

norm? And, and I found it very fascinating. I was talking to some, you know, friends and my, my girlfriend and some of her friends about some of their experiences because, you know, just because I've had this experience doesn't mean it's the norm out there. What do you think? I mean, do you think it's, do you think it's the norm? I don't think my experience is the norm. No. Why do I think what is the norm?

Like the norm, your experience, like the, how you, how you didn't feel like you had to perform, if you will, is kind of what I'm gathering from what you're saying. No, I think I've been very lucky in other aspects. Like, for example, like being tall, you know, being tall. I think when I think about my privileges in my life, I think being tall and considered by, you know, average society standards as attractive is like, has been super beneficial to me.

And that has given me, I suppose, a level of confidence or maybe confidence I didn't even deserve to have at times or the love from my parents. So when I felt like an outsider in other aspects of life, I guess I was fortunate enough not to worry about that so much. Yeah. You got a lot of privileges. I mean, you're a good looking guy, you're tall. There's a lot of things that are working in your benefit for sure yeah and i think it's really important for those of us with those privileges to also go back and be like oh man wow so like if i didn't have this how would my confidence be affected or what would my life be like or um how much have i relied on this type of thing because again like what i try to do

internally is to strip away a lot of those things and say like, okay, if I didn't have that, if I woke up tomorrow and I couldn't use my legs, would I still feel like I was enough? And so often the answer in my life has been no. Sure. Because for many men, that enoughness comes from external validation. It doesn't come from within. Like you were really blessed not only to have the privileges, but it seems like to have a family that actually reinstilled those values and reminded you that,

no, you cry, it's okay. Like, you know, I tell my little boy, like the heart is his strongest muscle. Strongest muscle on his body is his heart. Because the world's going to tell him that's not the case.

Well, science might yeah but the world's going to tell you it's it's like everything else it's all the visual things but sure at the end of the day i think the most important thing for us men is to is to start to rely on those those other things yeah you talk a lot about being enough in your book and you know we've talked to a lot of young men on this show and i you know go on the internet and i'll see things and even when i'm like giving advice or i see other people give advice especially when it's dating advice like i do x y or z to get a date and i see a lot of comments where it's just like well this only works for if you're good looking or rich you know i'll see a lot of that and i and i i feel like there's a lot of men that are hurting right now. Yeah. And I, yeah, I feel like there's a lot of growing hurt with young men and a lot of disenfranchised

men. And, uh, I, I want to continue to figure out ways to try to connect with men who, who might not feel like, you know, if they're not six, two, or if they're not six foot, or they feel like they don't have the looks that other people have, how can we give them the confidence? And I'm curious for you is how do you kind of reconcile between self-love and being enough, which I think is great, and being your best self versus like, hey, I love myself, but how do I invest in myself to make certain improvements? Whatever that is, whatever your goals are.

So how do you kind of reconcile between those two mindsets of just being enough? Like acceptance and accountability? Yeah, exactly. It's an interesting question. I don't think I've ever been asked that. I think that I talk in the first book in Married Enough about the why ladder. Figuring out why we do things is important. Like there's this whole thing about self-love. I don't write about self-love. I write about enoughness. I think that most people struggle with self-love. And I think there's also this very trendy idea that like we have to like really love ourselves and put ourselves first. And I think that that's a little bit of a trap. I think we have to be mindful when I, when I talk about enoughness, it comes down to like understanding that who I am as I am is enough. I don't have to become, I don't have to be six,

three, I want to be six, two. I don't have to be any more, any taller than I am. I don't have to be better looking than I am. I don't have to have bigger muscles than I am. I just have to know that my, like who I am innately intrinsically is enough. The way that I was created, the way God created me. I think spirituality plays a big part in that for me, that we were not accidents, that we are miracles, every single one of us, that the statistical probabilities of us existing right now are very very slim it's a miracle that we're even here and so we're here for a reason that every one of us has a god-given talent and ability to affect the world around them and make a difference so that enoughness starts almost from a soul spiritual level what i'm also hearing in the question is like okay well

then how do you balance like self-improvement maybe or is it like um yeah yeah whatever it is you know i see a guy coming up to me who's just like hey i'm struggling with dating whatever and let's say i noticed that like maybe he doesn't have like maybe he's kind of dressed a bit sloppy he doesn't maybe he hasn't like you know taking care of himself or whatever it is maybe he is uh you know feeling a little down or he hasn't like i ask him what he's been up to he's like oh not much haven't really done anything you know i kind of maybe i'm asking questions about like what he's investing in or what are his passions and things like that and he doesn't really have any answers and he feels kind of lost feels kind of

lost you know he's not really you know and i'm like what are you doing to invest in yourself and it's like well you know nothing you know how do'm like, what are you doing to invest in yourself? And he's like, well, you know, nothing, you know, how do you kind of, what would you say to that young man who, who says, you know, Justin, that's great, but like, you're a great looking guy who's a successful actor, director, writer, and you're a tall guy and you seem like you have some money and, well, that's not me, man. Yeah. first thing i'd say to him is that i know what it's like to to feel directionless and to feel like i'm not enough i know what it's like to be really insecure and uh it doesn't matter how many layers of privilege you put on if you don't feel like you're enough then you're never going to feel like you're enough um and so i'm grateful

that i've been in so many places even in success where I know what it's like to feel like, oh man, I don't, I don't feel good looking. I don't feel like I have any purpose. Am I even doing the right thing? I know what that's like. I know what it's like to be depressed. I know what it's like to have anxiety. So the first thing I would do is to make sure that he knows that like, this isn't me talking down or at him. It's me talking with him and saying like, talking with him and saying like, hey, I feel you. But you can't change your life. You can't start to build the future you want if you don't have an equilibrium,

a balance of feeling like you have a purpose in the first place. And I think that that's where a lot of men today are really struggling is they don't just, they don't see, they don't feel value. They don't see that there is a place for them in this world. And I think that we could do all the talking we want, like theoretically about like, Oh, what would you say to this person or this person? But it really comes down to each

of us feeling like we have something to offer and back to masculinity, so much of masculinity. And what we're raised, what we're raised with as young boys is that our value is equal to our productivity. If we're not producing in one way or that our value is equal to our productivity. If we're not producing in one way or another, we don't have value as men. And a lot of men currently don't feel like they have value. So it's, it's a more complicated, I think, nuanced question than that. And it's a very, I think the whole conversation is very, is very nuanced, but I come down to like the reason I wrote the book, the reason I talk about these things, especially with like 11 to 18 year olds, it's, it's helping boys realize that first of all, they're not alone. And that starts with being vulnerable. That starts with vulnerability, right? Like I want to ask you, you know, you had this unique experience, but what were your

biggest struggles? Like what were the things that, that, that kept you up at night that make you insecure as this beautiful, tall, privileged man with a show? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, when I think about that, I think fortunately I didn't struggle with a lot of personal insecurities, right? I mean, like, I feel like my insecurities creeped up more in adulthood rather than childhood. But like, for example, like, I was bullied in middle school. For what? Because I liked the same girls as another guy, you know?

And I was bullied hard. I mean, like, one day I showed up to school and half the guys in school called me gay so and how's that make you feel oh terrible i mean well at the time i was it was in seventh grade so that was a very confusing experience for me and i've talked about this before in the show but like that was at a time of my life where i didn't really understand my sexuality i don't even know if i had really gone through puberty at that point and i was bullied so much for it that i i was just like maybe i am yeah i mean i remember having that thought it's just like i everyone's

calling me gay i guess i could be you know and then you know obviously as i went through puberty and realized i was attracted to girls but um i look back kind of you know grateful for that experience in a sense because i think that experience made me very comfortable with my sexuality because it i survived that so to speak yeah but i never i don't have a thought of feeling insecure about it you know you know like i remember had that bothering me yeah but not it didn't it didn't devalue how i felt about myself i suppose that's a beautiful thing that in seventh grade you could be that bullied and not have your self-worth affected yeah i mean again i was sad and and i didn't want to go to school but it just it didn't it didn't affect my self-worth which is kind of interesting as I got into adulthood or going on TV or reality TV that that that

certainly played into insecurities and things like that and what you go on reality TV why yeah adventure you know my friend signed me up my friend's wife signed me up and figured well your friend's wife saying yeah yeah and I this was the this was the bachelor and i uh i'm your worst guest ever because i have not seen an episode not required for this particular episode yeah not required um but uh i had the thought i had never been to europe which was an act of thought like well i've never been to europe and i know they travel a lot on this show so that should be fun and that's ultimately why I decided to go.

So it wasn't to find love? No, but I was open to the experience. I mean, I think, I've said this before, but if anyone goes on a reality TV show for love, it's a little silly. But once I went there, I was open to what the reality of the show was. And you were one of the guys competing for the woman?

I was at first, and then I was the guy. And then you were the guy so you and that's okay god that's the bachelor that's the bachelor so you were the bachelor yeah and did you find your love uh i fell in love i have a girlfriend now and i'm very much in love but at the time i i found love and i did i found uh i mean i i found love multiple times on that show. And I cried multiple times. If I wasn't crying on my mom's shoulders, the first season of The Bachelor, the showrunner at the time was a woman who,

I guess, I'm still friends with to this day. And in some ways, like a mother figure. And this was off camera, and I'll never forget. I was the runner-up, so I was down to the final two, and it's the day of the proposal, and, you know, it's a very confusing day. Because you have to propose, right?

Yeah, sure, without getting into it and explaining it. Sure. Yeah. Typically, yeah. I remember she came and broke up with me, and then, you know, that was very confusing, so i just was kind of like a deer in headlights but after off camera the producer came up to me and i just

she hugged me and i just good beautiful fell apart and started bawling so yeah i and i think my again i go back to thanking my my parents for i didn't really struggle with, with my self-worth until I started falling in love until I started meeting, meeting, you know, yeah, having feelings and having relationships that didn't work out. And, uh, and that's when I had my own, you know, struggles. But before that I was, yeah, it wasn't until I started falling in love that I, at times lost my confidence. At times. Yeah. How about, I'm just just curious do you guys feel that men the men that you have dated struggle in some way with confidence but maybe don't um don't show it don't don't uh allow that in i'm just curious i'm trying i'm running through them

in my head well i've yeah i realized a little while ago that a lot of the men I've dated were accused of being gay or queer when that's not how they identify with. And I think it maybe speaks to traits that are maybe considered effeminate and then in a middle school environment, therefore gay, are things that I really gravitate towards in partners. Like what? different experiences please let me know but i think um i really appreciate um like a very high level of the kind of like thoughtfulness and i think within thoughtfulness uh and nuance it's kind of counter to having to be protective and having to be strong and having to have a take right away and having to be assertive in opinions um and i think i really respond to people who are able to who have the confidence to kind of detach from that. Yeah. I was saying before you, Justin, showed up, we were talking about dating a little bit and you were talking about, you know, the different types of guys and it can correct me if I'm wrong, but like you were talking about if you're on a date with someone who you might see as,

they project an insecurity where, and I was curious what you had to think about that, where, what were you just telling? Oh, no, I think we were talking about, cause we were talking about men being vulnerable. And then also like the example we were talking about of someone that we've both encountered where it was just like,

he clearly had a lot of insecurities, but he was leading with that. And we were kind of trying to coach him about dating or whatever. And I was like, especially like, and I wasn't in any way trying to shut him down, but I was like, if the first thing you say when you're on a first date with someone is, oh, I just like, I'm so stupid. And like, I look terrible and dah, dah, dah. And I hate this about myself or whatever. I'm like, that's not, yeah, it's not going to

like invite you in. And I'm like, I can be someone's cheerleader. Like, absolutely. The first like relationship I was in was awful because I was so put on the back burner because everything was about him. And it was like late night calls after he got out of a treatment center and whatever. Like I can be your cheerleader, but if that's the first date and the first encounter I have for you is feeling like I have to do that for you, especially because of my, you know, experiences, like it puts a little flag up there. Cause I'm like, I was destroyed because I was constantly just like trying to keep a different person alive and i was like i can't do that again and that's a lot for you do you see that a lot with the men you're dating do you do you see it's

like either this kind of bravado confident kind of um you know whether it's a projection or they're actually confident or you know men who who seem insecure but instead of you know as justin saying like maybe open to talking about vulnerabilities are just dumping all their insecurities out and and thinking and do you think the guys that are doing that do you think it's them thinking they're being vulnerable or do you think it's just them i think sometimes they're frustrated yeah it feels at least more venting or like they don't they that's what they're thinking so and they don't really know a way of avoiding that and that's just on top of mind and spews out but yeah I've definitely gone on dates

too where it's like far too much and it's like the yeah quote-unquote gym bro like stereotype and that's another way for me to run away because I feel like growing up like my dad and I have a great relationship I'm a daddy's girl and he's so like quiet and there's a quiet confidence and he's not like this bravado dude and I think I really like that so if someone shows up and they're rude to the waiter they're throwing their weight around or talking about money I'm like absolutely not but the reason why like the guy I dated over the summer and I was so into him is because that was a different like here's the you know here's the summer and I was so into him is because that was a different like here's the you know here's the terrible thing that happened to me but it really made me

learn a lot about therapy and journaling and I've done all these x y and z and I was like oh here's someone who's working on himself I don't have to do that for him we can meet each other in the middle and make each other better but it's not like either or it's not one of us constantly prioritizing the other person, vice versa. And mutual emotional labor. We're both working on ourselves, but we can now do that together.

I have this show. We predominantly have an audience of women. We call them our 10 percenters. The men I've met who listen to this show, the sweetest, most wonderful men. But I constantly try to think of ways i'm always thinking how can i connect with more men you know who have an interest talking about feelings and empathy and dating and relationships and boundaries and expectations and and to be

honest it's something i do struggle with in terms of you know trying to attract more men to to give a shit about this type of content. And I'm curious if you, you know, have you had any thoughts on that? I, that was the, that's, that's amazing. I mean, if you have 10% of your listeners who are men, like I just, I don't, when I meet one man on the street who comes up to me and he says something really sweet to me or one listener or anything, I realized like, wow, how wow, how many people does that man interact with on a daily basis? So it's like this idea of like wanting more followers or wanting more men to follow us, like at the same time, those 10% who are listening to you and who are gaining,

who are like gaining something that they can take with them into all of their relationships, whether it be with men or with women or whoever they're with, like that's the butterfly effect of that you can't quantify. And I think that's how you change the world. So for me, I'm generally focused on one man at a time. If I have a man in my personal life who is willing to call me and open up and who we can dig in and work on stuff with,

that is so fulfilling to me because for so long, i didn't have that there was no say there was no safe spaces for men to do that at least when i was growing up there wasn't um and i'm talking about like real vulnerability i'm talking about i'm not talking about like oh i'm i'm stupid or i'm this and that's not vulnerability that's like that's that's insecurity and and masochism in a way. Like this is us, like he's telling you what, how he feels about himself and probably in some ways trying to like have this not go well, but we have to like, it's also whiny. Like there's a difference between

vulnerability and whining. Like, like vulnerability is when you share something, um, in a safe place and you have something to lose by sharing it. It was one of the reasons why I struggled with my dad, you know, and we've been, I had him on my show and we actually had this beautiful moment and we've been doing a lot of work together. And, but growing up, he was emotional, but he wasn't vulnerable. He never taught me like growing up, like, Oh, like this is something that I, that I'm struggling with. I never saw the things that my dad was struggling with or that he wasn't good at

or that he was insecure about it because he, like my grandfather and like so many of us, man, we put on this front where everything's okay and we have to be the providers. And if there's weakness, then everything's gonna fall apart. And now as he's getting older, he's showing a lot more of that.

And then right before I got married or right after i got married he told me the best piece of advice i'd ever gotten on love which is that i have to choose it and there were times he showed he told me that he thought about leaving my mom and and they've been married they're married 40 years this year and and that they were didn't know if they were going to work out but they every day they chose each other he chose her and i was like well where was this when i was 15 dad i'm like i'm getting it now at 30 but where was this when i was 15 dad i'm like i'm getting it now at 30 but where was this when i was 15 and i can't and it wasn't his fault he didn't he didn't have

the words he didn't know how to share it but that's the difference between vulnerability and whining and and just complaining you know and i think we need to teach men how to actually be vulnerable which is you tell me something that is not easy to share because we're vulnerable with one or two or three most men like nobody but like maybe one person the majority of men who are in relationships with women are only vulnerable with those women you have kids yeah i have two kids two kids boy girl five five-year-old boy seven-year-old girl and you're five-year-old boy so well he's five but he's getting to that point where you're gonna maybe start having these conversations with him well we've already started okay at three and a half he came home and said that uh he had a friend of his that never cried and made fun of him for crying and what

did you say i mean yeah my question like how are you planning on teaching your son about masculinity one of the things we're doing is um look it's a big it's a great experiment right so i know the world is going to tell my daughter that she has to be a certain way that she's got to not take up space and be polite and pretty and put together and all of the various things that society tends to just in general say that women should be that the feminine should be um and this we're going to do the same thing to him as boys. He shouldn't cry. He should be strong and he should be tough and he should be, you know, he should be focused and all the various things. So what we're doing every, every day and every night is, is kind of like ingraining in them the opposite. So like with my daughter, I want her to take up space. I want her to be loud. I want her

to know that she can take physical risk as an example, just as much as the boys can. I want her to have that full experience because when she goes to school, she's going to be channeled. Her energy is going to be channeled into a certain direction. And at home, I want her to know that this is a safe place and this is who we see you as, and this is amazing. And you are enough just as you are. And my son, it's a little bit of the opposite. He naturally, um, is that, and I want him to know that, like I said, the hardest, he naturally, he naturally, he naturally acts like, uh, the way you would generally see a young five-year-old boy act, which is he's a tornado. It's a testosterone tornado.

And there are a lot of young boys who are not that way. But my son is very, and I was the same way. So we're really focusing on the emotional parts. Reminding him about emotional bravery and compassion and empathy and sensitivity. And that these are strengths that are just as, if not more important than the physical strengths, you know, because when these young boys say, well, I don't cry or, and they make him feel bad for it. And they start to, you know, he has long hair like me. And someone said he looked like a girl once.

And I was like, well, that's a compliment. Girls are awesome. How awesome is your sister? Girls can do so many cool things. Girls get to have babies. Men could never do that. We're not, and you have to remind them like, oh, being a girl is actually an amazing thing. That's how you teach equality at a young age

versus like this competition between the sexes. Like if you're not, if you're a boy and you're called a girl, like that's the worst thing in the world. That's what I felt. But what if that doesn't have to be that way? What if you have a respect and reverence for girls at a young age? I don't know what's going to happen. So we're, we're really focusing on empathy and compassion and sensitivity and letting them know that those things are important. And then when he watches me work out, right? So I'm training for something right now I'm working out out but i explained to him that i'm able to do that because i work on my heart first

right it's one thing to have muscles so it's another thing to have emotional strength and so i work on my heart and i get my heart strong and then i go work on my body and i get my body strong because one without the other like it's great great. Yeah. You can have all the muscles in the world and you can move stuff, but if you don't know who you are and you're not in touch with yourself, then what's the point? It's just a, it's another shell. It's another layer that we have to try to get through. Uh, before we get to our call and texting office hours, cause I know they're, they're ready. I'm curious. What are talking about like emotions and vulnerability? talking about like emotions and vulnerability what uh i don't what what makes you cry the most or is it a certain kind of movie is it certain conversations what gets you really emotion what

makes you open up what gets the tears going um it surprises me on a day-to-day basis especially you know we do so i do so much work and we've done so much work with therapy and i do a lot of somatic therapy and what's somatic therapy somatic therapy is getting into your body so that you actually can feel i believe that your body holds all of your feelings and emotions especially in us men when we haven't been able to to express them over the course of our lives i mean they found of course we know that there are stress hormones that are released when we cry as children so the more that we are teaching ourselves to not cry the more that stress lives in our body so like the body keeps the score what happened to you this uh um uh gabor mate's new book

there's just incredible incredible work being done out there in this field so and i think that everybody should really get into that but um over the course of the last couple years it surprises me i think a lot of the things that make me cry right now have to do with my children for some reason like i like i'm i make movies that make people cry because i love to cry so uh romance makes me cry when people underdog stories make me cry when people overcome tremendous adversity i cry i cry i spent 10 years making documentaries about individuals who are living with terminal illnesses and choosing life and love in the face of their adversity so um you know uh those situations have for sure made me cry and i'm a few friends who are still struggling with that

um and also happy moments like being proud of my children and like watching them do something that was surprising to me can get me to tear up happy moments make me cry way more than the sad moments good yeah that's good like commercial like those a commercial that makes you happy or like a happy moment in a movie or a tv show like yeah yeah there's still always some those get me all like like sad moments on tv not as much but i'm a sucker for a happy moment on on on tv moments and then also like you know you'll find if you ever have kids like you know you'll take your kid to kindergarten for the first day and you're like, wait, my kid's in kindergarten. And you just start sobbing. Like when they walk away, you know, I cry thinking about the fact that when my daughter's going to

go to college one day and I'm going to have to like, she's going to be leaving my house and, you know, all kinds of stuff. I cry all the time. Uh, what's, uh, an insecurity you've worked through? I know you talked about in your book about, you know, as an actor and taking your shirt off and being the shirtless guy. But other than that, what's an insecurity that you've had to work through? Or maybe you're still working on it, but something you've had to work to try to overcome and maybe you've made some progress. But something that, you know, it bothered you about yourself. Like for me in adulthood, I'm dyslexic. you about yourself. Like for me in adulthood, I'm, I'm dyslexic and I have a, I also, I have like a strong personality where I often don't feel like I can be aloof and I can be in my thoughts.

And sometimes I come across a certain way. That's something I've had to struggle with and work on. So you're insecure about coming off a certain way. Yeah. And I, you know, and that's not for me like i've had to you know back to like loving myself and accepting myself and and and there's a challenge something i try to work on and be mindful of i don't even have an answer because it's like you know there's well you know it's it's learning that i'm dyslexic and i didn't learn that until like adulthood you know or struggling to read publicly um or being conceived you, being perceived as aloof or like I might come across as an ass or a jerk because I'm just kind of like sitting there at a party. I'm a bit

introverted as well. So you combine all that. I go to a party and I'm just sitting there minding my own business, thinking about whatever, not like paying attention to someone who's trying to talk to me and fuck, I did it it again and there's this thought i struggle with where and i to myself it's like well do i want you know where do you where do i draw the line between well this is who i am i've accepted i've i've i've found answers to explain my why i do what i do because when i was younger i was like i don't know why i fucking do this versus well i do want i don't want to come across this way and I don't want to make people feel inferior or late that I'm not seeing them or I'm not recognizing them. So I do have to work on that

and, and, and, and working on that and on my weaknesses, because I also don't want me people to perceive me a certain way that I don't feel that I am is there something like that you you work on first of all I just want to I want to say thank you for sharing that yeah how's it going hey there my name is Carly I'm 25 years old how can we help and I need some help because I have a friendship. I know that it needs to end, but I can't decide if I should just peacefully go or if I really need to vent it all out and lay it on her. Okay. Well, first of all, my first question is how long has this friendship lasted? How old is this friendship? The friendship, I met her in 2018. So it's about four years old, but we stopped working together about two years ago and it's definitely faded

since then. So we already don't see each other very often, maybe like once or twice a year. Okay. Feel free to ask any questions. Oh, I'm just gathering. I'm just collecting data right now.

So I guess the big question, that's the big question is what, why do you want to end this friendship because essentially you're kind of asking can you ghost this friendship right kind kind of because yeah because i mean i could easily just be fake and keep being nice and if we run into each other at group things you know play it cool and she never has to know that she's like kind of dead to me, or I could tell her why I say kind of dead to me. Let me just tell you the story. Okay. I'll have to give a little background

because it involves an ex. So the ex that is in question, I met him at a job when I was in college. So that was like five or six years ago at that time. And we were just friends for a really long time. And then in 2020, he got laid off from his job because of COVID. So I got him a job where I worked, which was like kind of like a country club type place. I got him like a serving job there. So we were friends when he got the job, but it was pretty quick into it that it was like, okay, there's tension here. We're clearly going to date, like there's something going on between us. So I was in a management position. So I ended up leaving that job, not just for him. I also got into a career

from my degree. But a big part of it was that I didn't want to compromise everything at work. So I left. So I left him working there with this friend and they became somewhat friends as well. with this friend and they became somewhat friends as well. And then she actually started dating his best friend. So we were good friends and they were best friends and we were dating each other. And then she actually ended up being roommates with them as like a third person in their house for a while. So she got pretty close to my boyfriend as well as me. So your boyfriend and her boyfriend were roommates and she moved in with them? Correct. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So basically, well, the weird part is me and my boyfriend broke up early June and it was for a lot of reasons, mostly maturity level, but a lot of it

was that I knew I wanted to move out of our hometown. And he had told me he did too. And then he came back and was like, I actually want to be here until my parents die. And I was like, well, that's a really long time away. So I'm actually good on that. But there was a lot of reasons that we broke up. But I would say in the months leading up to our breakup, he was clearly checked out. He didn't do anything for my birthday. He didn't do anything for Valentine's day. He, when we moved in together,

we were living together. He started playing video games like six hours a night. And before that he had never played a video game in the entire two years we were dating, you know? So it was just like a big shock when we lived together. So we broke up, turned out that her and her boyfriend, who is his best friend, broke up on the exact same day, which was odd. So, and we hadn't communicated to each other at all. Did he initiate the breakup or did you initiate the breakup? I initiated the breakup, but to my surprise at the time, he was like, I agree, let's break up. He was a hundred percent on board when I brought it up immediately. And I was like, I agree. Let's break up. Like he was a hundred percent on board when I brought it up immediately. And I was like, okay, I really was not expecting that honestly. Cause like it was

going to be a pain for us. Like we bought all of the stuff together. He was the one that was so excited to move in and the one that pushed me really hard to move in with him. So when we broke up only three months into our lease, like I expected a fight, honestly. And he didn't give me one at all. Like he was just like, you're right. And, oh, and I should mention like one of the things that was like a breaking point for me in the last week, I asked him to listen to a podcast on like attachment styles, because I felt like that was kind of our disconnect and he refused to do it. He was like, I don't have time to listen to it. I was like, it's 30 minutes, like please.

And he wouldn't do it. I asked him to take his attachment style quiz. He did that for me. And, um, he was avoidant and I was anxious. And so I was like, I know there's a lot of issues that come with this. Like, please work on this with me. And he just wasn't interested at all. So we ended it. So since we're living together and we both loved our apartment, I was like, you're 10 minutes from work. You have now a person who could move in with you. Your best friend just got dumped as well. So I'll move out. I'll find another place. So I did. I found another place. I moved out. It took me maybe like three weeks to move out. Right. So after two days after I move out, and by the way, in the month after we broke up, since we felt like we still had a lot of

love for each other, we were still kind of like playing boyfriend, girlfriend, like still hooking up a little bit. And so it was really confusing because I did still love him. I just knew it wasn't right. So it hurt. It hurt a lot. And now I'm in a new place by myself, like an hour from all my friends. And so two days into living there, they all came to visit me. They all hung out. And then when they left, I was checking their locations to make sure they got home okay. And I still had my ex-boyfriend on there. And I see he's at an address that he and I had never been to together. And it's like 2am at this time. And I'm like, that is so weird. Like, why is he at that address? So I'm already like,

my interest is peaked. And the address sounds really familiar, but I don't know why. So I think back and I remember the day that me and my ex broke up, I went over to this friend's house and we hung out because we were both freshly broken up. We were sad. We were crying. And one of her friends from work visited her and brought her like some candy to be like, sorry for the breakup. And she was so weird with me. Like she wouldn't make eye contact with me. She like had big eyes. Like she looked scared of me. And I was like, what's this girl's deal? Like, why is she being so weird? Come to find out it's her address, right? So he started sleeping with this girl who I had met two days after I moved out. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. We were together for two

years. I'm alone in my house an hour from my friends and I'm freaking out. And I'm like, and so I make sure it's her address. I confirm it and I wait. He sleeps there every night for like four or five days in a row. And I'm like, Oh, Oh, Oh. I was like, once I realized I was like, Oh, I'm, I was in like location reminders. Like I'm checking it, you know? So I see he sleeps there like four or five nights and I'm like, Oh no, no, no. And I'm getting texts from like mutual friends being like, he's taking this so hard. Like you have no idea how much you meant to him. And I'm like, um, actually that's not true. So I send, this is where I get a little crazy toxic and I, it gets worse.

I send a group text out to everyone. We had a group message with like all of our friends from work in it. And from when I worked there and all, it was maybe like 20 people. And I sent a text to everybody that said, Hey, just so you guys know, I moved out less than a week ago and already fucking some other girl from the class. I shouldn't have said that from his work. Um, so when I do that and I, and I also, since I had his location, I waited until he was at work to send it so that he would have to deal with the fallout immediately. Right.

Okay. I didn't say any names in my text. Right. So because I didn't say any names in my text. So you made it like a murder mystery game for everyone. Right. You created more drama at work. But it turned out that was, well, I didn't want to call her out because I

didn't know her. Turns out because I didn't call out a name, a second girl who he was also already sleeping with and had been texting during our relationship was like, oh my God, how did she find out? And starts like crying at work and going up to like, how did she find out? A second girl who I didn't even know about. So now there's two girls that he's sleeping with within a week of me moving out. And I find out like he was already talking to them before we broke up. And then I find out this friend who the reason I'm calling is for knew about it all along. And I even explicitly asked her like, is he seeing someone else already? That's insane. And she was like, no, definitely not. He would not do that to you. Like, no way. But she knew fully the whole situation. And then since

then, she's just been a horrible friend about it. Like, she's hung out with him multiple times. And then she'll call me to tell me about how different he is. And it's just like, you know how heartbroken I am. Like, why are you still telling me about this? And also, why are you still bringing friends with him? Why are you still defending him? This was all his decision, you know? So is she, when you keep referring to her as a friend, like it's a relationship. And so you haven't confronted her about this at all. I did confront her about lying directly.

I said, like, I can't understand how you could lie to me. And she was like, you need to put yourself in my shoes. I'm having to take care of three friendships here. I can't just think about you. I have to think about them too. And I'm like, yeah, but we go way back, first of all, and I'm the one being screwed over in this situation. So I mean, she didn't really take any ownership. She was just like, you know, see it from my side. Did you confront her about the fact that she was sleeping with him? No.

Okay. So my friend isn't the one sleeping with him. Oh, it's a different. She knew about the other two girls. Oh, okay. She just knew about it. Okay. And chose not to tell me when I asked her.

Gotcha. Yeah. And so your biggest frustration with this friend is that you feel like she should have been more loyal to you than the other people she claims that she was balancing. Exactly. And she's lied to me before that situation a few times. And so it was kind of like a last straw thing of like, you're clearly not going to prioritize me. She's also canceled like our last four plans that we've had last minute when I texted her to be like, Hey, I'm not coming. So it just feels like in a lot of

ways, she's just not the real friend. And I'm fine with having outer layer friends, but I thought she was an inner layer friend. And I don't know. I know that I don't want to trust her anymore. Sure. So what do I think you should do? I'm curious what Justin thinks, but I just believe in good, healthy communication and good habits. And while I know it made for a good story, I don't think you handling it the way you did by sending out that kind of cryptic texts and outing people and creating more drama. And I'm sure it caused a lot of pain and sadness

with those people involved. I would encourage you, like, you know, ghosting in general, I don't think is very healthy. And like, whether you agree with this friend or not about what she did and how she handled it, you know, like if she considers you a friend and you just disappear on her, that's going to leave her with questions and, and, and it feel like, well, why, what did I do? And you guys aren't on the same page. So I just feel like, yeah, well, it might be a tough conversation, at least really expressing yourself

of why you're pulling away and why you're setting a boundary with her. I think you would feel better in the long run about that. And it would still give her an opportunity to maybe reassess. She might pull back and disagree with you at first, but over time, she could come back in a couple of months and say, hey, I've really reflected and thought about this situation. I really don't like how I handle it. And can I have your forgiveness? I don't really know, but that's much more productive and it really opens the door for an opportunity for something good to happen rather than you just disappearing on her and ghosting her and leaving with questions because she clearly

doesn't see the situation as you do, you know, and I, I get where you're coming from, but she does, you know, her point of view is, is her point of view. And it might not, she might see things differently and she might have reasons why, you know, like when I feel wronged, yes, loyalty matters to me. And we have very different perceptions of loyalty as people, you know? And certainly when I feel wronged, I want my friends to have my back. But when other friends are involved, I have been very much disappointed and frustrated at how my friends prioritize my feelings versus others. But does that mean I was right over them?

I'm not so sure. It just meant that that was my expectation that they didn't meet. And I just feel like just communicating your expectations, how they can meet in the future will better serve you in the long run. Whether you become, stay friends with her or not, I think you'll just feel good about handling it in a more open communication way, so to speak.

I don't know. Yeah, I can see that. Justin? I feel like I just watched this on Netflix. This was a fantastic story. Thank you. I think Nick's advice is great. I would encourage you to look at yourself and how you've handled it and what your feelings are around it. And before you go and burn any, any other houses down sometimes sometimes when we're not sober emotionally we can make decisions that uh don't just hurt other people but hurt us in the long

run and it doesn't quite sound like it's an emotionally sober environment for anybody and i would just also argue that you broke up with him. So you can choose to suffer. True. But it seems like you wanted this to end, and now it's time for you to, when you break up with someone, you have to let them go. You release them.

Yeah. So you don't monitor their locations. Justin makes a really great point about that, too. And I understand. We do that, right? When we break up with someone, we want it to mean something, and we weirdly will monitor their behavior post-breakup as a way to validate what we had when the relationship existed, which I understand the logic, but it doesn't also really make that much sense. your biggest frustration about this friends or friends is what your ex-boyfriend did after you were dating. And I know you mentioned, you said, oh, well, he might've been talking to these other

girls, but just consider the fact that you are thinking about firing a friend over something your ex-boyfriend did, not what your boyfriend did. And then deciding for her what loyalty you thought she owed you for what like he was doing. And if she's also friends with him, that can get very complicated as a third party friend to try to prioritize loyalty. And, you know, so, you know, maybe to Justin's point, maybe try to empathize with your friend's point of view, even if she's not empathizing with you, it might change your perspective a little bit. Be the friend you want someone to be to you, to yourself first.

And just go enjoy your life. Don't worry about the past, right? You broke up with him. You want something new. The more you think about what happened before, the less likely you are you're going to be open to something new that you're actually excited about and hoping for.

So do you still have access to his location no and that was all like within the week following the breakup i haven't checked or done anything like that she's actually outside of his apartment right now yeah i'm parked right outside um no and it's more that i feel like as a friend i don't i don't want to put any more emotional energy into it like you're saying i do feel like i'm over it i feel like i'm past it and i feel like re-pulling up all these wounds is gonna hurt that process yeah but you're not i think you're kind of i get your logic but if you were really over it then i don't think you would be considering firing this friend over it.

You know, you're just like, I think you just haven't fully processed it. And you're afraid to go back there because I'm sure you've made some progress. And you're afraid of kind of relapsing back to that kind of very vulnerable state of being kind of reactive and stalking him and things that you even can recognize were a bit toxic and you don't want to do. But maybe to Justin's point, just maybe give it a little bit more time. You can take a break from your friend. You can just pull back a little bit and have a little more individual time and reflect and maybe hang out with other friends. And maybe there's a better time in the future down the road to say, hey, that did bother me. You also in a couple of months might feel very differently where you realize, I don't even need to have that conversation because I've done the kind of emotional processing about that relationship. And I am kind of generally

indifferent about it. And I don't really care. And I guess, yeah, you know what? I really was mad about that. And we weren't even dating. And so like, what was she supposed to say to me at the time you know maybe she just wanted to remove herself from drama and then maybe you won't want to fire her as a friend anymore i've never had a conversation that went well when i was emotionally heated ever yeah whether in relationships or business it doesn't exist so no matter what you do take a few weeks off or a month off and cool down so you can see and sober up. And you'll probably you'll find the answer in yourself.

Something my therapist says a lot is people don't make you feel anything. They invite you to feel anything. And I say that to in no way invalidate like it is. I completely like really can see where you're coming from in terms of like feeling really upset by the situation and really underserved by your friend and how like disappointing and makes you know I would probably be super reactive to you um so I say that and not uh like get it under control but in a like in any way that it can be like empowering to you of like kind of trying to integrate that into your thought patterns because it's something I've been trying to do a lot and it's helped me especially when I do feel kind of at the mercy of other

people's bad behavior, reminding myself like the ways that I can kind of take back control. Yeah. And also, I mean, I remember when I was cheated on way back when I had a lot of expectations of what I thought my friends should do in that situation. I've been there. And they were fairly extreme looking back. At the time, I felt very justified for how I thought they should handle and how I thought they should treat her and things like that. And as time passed, I just really stopped caring. I really was thankful to get to a place where I was indifferent. And in the future, I think once

you... you will know you're really over it when you really don't care how other people interact with him. Because you'll have, you'll have your boundaries set up for what you need is in terms of your relationship with him, whatever that is. But if you do feel in the future, you know, you still feel like, hey, can I just talk to you about this? And maybe you just bring it up. It just, I felt this way in the future to, you know, you still feel like, Hey, can I just talk to you about this? And maybe you just bring it up. It just, I felt this way in the past. And, you know, uh, I'm hoping that I can, I don't have to feel this way in the future, but I will, I wouldn't be surprised if, if you let things pass. And as Justin says, you know, as things calm that you, if you go back and reevaluate how you feel, it might be very different. I can see that. And there's definitely a pride issue.

Writer, a letter, get it all out and then burn it. Yeah. I like that. There's an energy to it and you never have to, you never have to give her the weight of all of it because also some people can't hold it and you're also in pain. I think at the end of the day you're hurting and you're really just feeling like nobody's there for you right now. And the people that do the breaking up also hurt too right

heart never breaks even but uh so just make sure you're doing something for you yeah and you got blindsided a little bit because you you were surprised by his reaction and you felt duped and the more information you found it was just like you know like yeah and it got definitely yeah right and you wanted other people to feel like that again, back when I was cheated on, I wanted all my friends to feel the, all the same anger that I felt. And if they didn't, I felt like they were not being good friends to me. Yeah. Yeah. I can definitely feel that. Yeah. I, and I, if, if that's similar to what you're going through, I promise you as time passes, you, the anger will go away. It has. It's definitely faded.

Just give it more time. You got this. You're enough. Thanks. I appreciate it. I really do. All right. Well, thank you for the call. Keep us posted what you decide to do. I'd love in a couple months for you to give us an update on how you're feeling about the situation, if your perspective has changed at all. Okay. I will. Or the script so we can turn it into a movie yeah there we go yeah i didn't even get into all the job it was worse i can imagine that i can give you the full story one day but we can't wait all right they can give you a cell phone after this take care all right Take care. All right. Bye. Bye. We were talking about insecurities, working on them.

And I, again, I talked about the things I'm working on. I'm just curious on your end, what is something that you've been insecure about or struggle with? Or, you know, for me, this is something like I shared, I'll never master this. This will be something I'll always master. It's a, it's a's a it's a daily look in progress it's a daily struggle uh for me and oftentimes i'll have that kind of response like oh fuck you know like did it again or i or i'll be worried about like you know was i present you know did i do it i'll ask my girlfriend, often, you know, and she's very helpful with that.

But what's something that... Yeah, and I just go back to like acknowledging that that's not an easy thing to say. And also, you know, we started the conversation by you saying like you had read the book and there were some things that you weren't quite sure. But I would argue that based on what you're sharing, you very much had that experience. So you have even in adulthood like just just the wondering of how you're coming off and and how you're making somebody else feel is an important thing sure so i just want to just say that that's awesome and i'm happy that you're working on that

i have so many things also i was thinking if you would have asked me 10 years ago i would have given the exact same answer you gave about childhood everything i was yeah no i was good i was good i couldn't even tell admit to my friends that i was struggling with something like you just shared until probably 10 years ago but i for me i asked that question because i wasn't struggling with that as a kid i didn't even i wasn't aware i wasn't but that's the thing i wasn't i wasn't aware i was having i wasn't aware of any of this stuff as a kid yeah none of it yeah i didn't even know i had anxiety until five years ago, until I actually got in touch with my body and I realized, oh wait, those times when I have to like take a full breath, that's

my body telling me that I have anxiety. Like, oh wow, wow, why am I having a hard time breathing? And then I just push through it because that's what men are taught to do our whole lives. No, I had anxiety for probably 20 years and I had no freaking clue. So I had no clue that I was dealing with any of the insecurities or any of the things that I was dealing with when I was in it. It wasn't until in hindsight, I looked back and saw the path of destruction I caused, not just for myself, but for others and how unhappy I was that I realized, oh, there's some things that I have to work on. And then the deeper that I got, to answer your question, the more in tune with all of the things in the daily basis that I'm working on. So I'll give

you one as an example. You mentioned lightly the shirtless stuff. I've had a really tough relationship with my body for as long as I can remember. I've always wanted my body to do more than it could in any given moment. This idea that like, oh, if I just worked harder or if I just did this or did this, oh, I want to look like that guy. I've always had a very antagonistic relationship with my body and it never came from this place of like being content.

So I'd look in the mirror, I'd see what was wrong. I'd see what wasn't, which muscles weren't big enough. I'd want my abs to show more. I didn't like how i looked in certain clothes or certain shirts part of that was starting puberty late you know and not getting muscles or getting made fun of for not having abs or or whatever it was and then that carries through and we don't realize it as as mid-30s 40 year old men like we have the same insecurities we had we just didn't know we had them so for, one of the things that I am doing now is I wake up in the

morning and before I pull out my phone, before I check my email, before I do any of that, I have a journal next to my bed. Sometimes I'll go into another room. I do like this red light. That's called the juve. It's just this red light thing. And I'll go and I meditate. I might do like this little morning movement, breath work stuff. And I write down positive affirmations and I'll write down things that I like about my body. And at first it was so hard for me to pick something that I liked or to even as a man write down like I have a great ass or whatever it is. That was a challenge? Yeah, it's absolutely a challenge. I think that for me, for me at least, it was hard for me to write down without anybody around the things that I liked about my body.

And so, in doing that, I started to look in the mirror and then find something about myself and smile at it. Instead of find something that was wrong, or, oh, I'm aging or this or this or whatever. And all the things that we do when we compare ourselves to the highlight reels of other people's lives every single day. And that's really, really changed the energy that I have around my body.

And I've been doing it for a while now. And I can tell on the days that I miss it. Because I'll let some of those thoughts will come back in. And I'll compare myself to somebody else or to the way that I miss it. Because I'll let some of those thoughts will come back in and I'll compare myself to somebody else or to the way that I used to look. Or I'll just, in general, have a negative outlook of how I look or feel when I look in the mirror. But for the most part, it's like really focusing on looking at myself now, being grateful, smiling. Like that was not something I ever did. I never smiled at myself in the mirror. And so now in the morning when I'm brushing my teeth and I'll just find something positive about

myself and move on. That's just one example. I have a whole list of things that I'm constantly thinking about and working on. And just like yourself, want to make sure that I'm not making people feel a certain way when I'm with them or things like that. But yeah, this is life. This is the human condition. We're all, at the end of the day, works and progresses. We will never arrive. That's not the purpose of this life. But I think as long as we're doing the work individually,

then hopefully we're making ourselves fertile ground to be bringing us back to what this show seems to be about, is to have a meaningful relationship and invite somebody else in that is also doing that same work nice well that's a great great place to end it i can't thank you enough justin for taking the time to speak with us uh can you let my audience know obviously you have your book coming out you have man enough and all the things that you're doing feel free to share with my audience let them know where they can find more of it you can uh

feel free to share with my audience, let them know where they can find more of it. You can, uh, yeah, I guess social media, right? Uh,

Justin Baldoni is my name and that's where, uh, that's where my, my stuff is, I guess. Great. I have a podcast, manenough.com slash podcast.

All right. Well, uh, and then when is, when his boys will be human come out? It came out a few months ago. Yeah. We did three weeks, uh,

on the New York times bestseller list. So, um, yeah, it's, um yeah it's uh it's it's been out and it's yeah it's really sweet we'll check it out and uh congratulations on everything and uh thanks for coming on appreciate it thanks for listening guys don't forget to send in those questions at ask nick at the vile files.com uh don't forget uh next week we have liz schwartz. That's it, right? Lisa Schwartz. Liz, Lisa. We have Lisa Schwartz. Ooh, we're going to do it again. Lisa Schwartz.

Schwartz. Schwartz. I'm so bad with my S-C-H's. There's another insecurity. Schwartz. Schwartz. Schwartz. Schwartz.

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