The Viall Files - E542 Raven Ross Tells All

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper Edition! Today we are joined by Love is Blind’s Raven Ross to get the truth about her relationship with SK and address all the questions and drama surrounding their rekindling, second proposal, cheating allegations, and break up. What didn’t we get to see between their season, the reunion, and after the altar? We dive into what details Raven knew and what she found out on the internet, if she’s been in contact with SK’s exes, and the last time she spoke with SK. We then have a special Ask Nick caller who gets Nick’s advice on being invited to a couple’s trip having just found out her best friend is cheating on her boyfriend. We wrap up with Raven and ask about early red flags with SK, and any parts of the relationship that she’s still processing. Finally, we have a bonus Texting Office Hours call with Raven about setting boundaries and communicating expectations early on in relationships.  “You’re kind of being stalked. She’s obsessed with you as well.”  If you are interested in running a book club in your city, send an email to: [e-mail] Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/ To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: OSEA: Protect your skin from winter dryness with clean, vegan skincare and body care from OSEA. Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code TVF at https://www.OSEAMalibu.com Athletic Greens: If you’re looking for an easier way to take supplements, Athletic Greens is giving you a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 free travel packs with your first purchase. Go to https://www.athleticgreens.com/VIALLFILES Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @pilatesbyraven @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog

What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Vow Files Going Deeper Edition. And boy, is this a special one. I know you're all excited and so many people are probably tuning in maybe for the first time on this show and we welcome you. You know, I'm like the pastor or the priest on Easter, you know. Hey, thanks for coming to church, sinners. But no, truly, we are so glad that you are here. We are excited for you to hear this episode. Raven was so generous with her time to share this story, which was incredibly difficult for her. She has been through a lot and our hearts go out to her, but we still very much appreciate her giving us the tea. and just being it's it was great our our jaws were dropped there's a lot to get into we can't not wait for you to hear this episode uh for those of you i also just want to introduce uh ali and amanda they're always with us ladies how you doing good we're thriving bopping vibing

bopping so excited for this episode to be oh so excited uh i know we have some topics to discuss before we get to raven also this is kind of a big episode, so excited. I know we have some topics to discuss before we get to Raven. Also, this is kind of a big episode. We figure you might as well just have this be the episode where we have, we've talked about

a man named Derek in the room. He's a very important part of this team. He's been working on this show for years. Wow, now.

Longer than us. Has he? Derek, has it been? Anyway, Derek has a mic now. Say hi, Derek. We're not silencing men anymore we're not we're not silencing men anymore we've put a stop to that you know against my will thank you for the introduction yeah no it's been it's been a while I think before Ellie and Amanda here's what I want to do right now um thanks for that derek uh you can be quiet now uh respectfully i want to talk about derek while he's here oh wait this is cute yeah derek is a special man

and i look forward to you guys getting to know him he is one of those people who uh has a lot to say but chooses not to say it often he's a sweet soul his patience is infinite he follows a lot of sort of semi-niche animal accounts on instagram and will update me regularly about various zoo animals across the world he's a gentle nuanced yeah dynamic person i feel like i only know 10 of derrick yeah it's the tip of the iceberg. He's a highly intelligent person. He knows a lot about everything. He is dedicated to the things he's passionate about, and I'm lucky to know that he's passionate about this show. What about Derek did you first say,

you know what, I'm going to mooch you? Mooch you? Yeah. You mean poach him? Yeah. I'm going to smooch you, Derek. No, is it mooch the same as poach oh i mean i don't know by the time i uh decided to take derrick from his previous employer i you know was fully invested he was

he was an integral part of the show so it was kind of a no-brainer but you said there's a man in the white van named derrick who i kidnapped and i'm taking him to my show he does like to wear a hawaiian shirt a lot yeah yeah signature style he just always made himself available he was always is a it was what can i do not what do i have to do and i love that about him derrick is a yes man well yeah he's not in a way where he's not a pushover no but like he was just yeah it's like what can i do he wants to make people around him successful you He loves hard. You're a dreamer. He's a doer.

And you're an ideal pairing. Is he my Wozniak? Are you my Wozniak, Derek? I think that's a fair assessment. Yeah. Just don't boot me out later. I hope you have a better finish than they had. If you guys were going to share the same first name,

would you want to both go by Nick or both go by Derek? I'd rather be Derek. Derek Viall has a ring to it. Derek's a cool name. Sexier than Nick. Do you want to both go by nick or both go by derrick i'd rather be derrick derrick vial has a ring to it derrick's a cool name sexier than nick do you want to do a poll yeah what's a sexier name nick or derrick yeah let's do a poll on instagram all right i'll pull the people speaking of polls have you guys seen the new barney oh my god illustration uh yeah wow crazy they got why is barney look like he's on drugs now and it's too much first older barney looks a little sleepy it's like it's like older barney was on like downers and and newer barney's on uppers and we needed a middle and we are they bringing the show back

it's like a new yeah it's a new type of it's like barney and blank is it going to be on like it because it was on like wasn't it on like pbs like because, it's a new type of, it's like Barney and Blank. Is it going to be on like, because it was on like, wasn't it on like PBS? Because now it's an animated series. That's the difference. Like this used to be a man in a suit. Oh, okay. And now it's animated. They're not having a man in a suit.

Well, there might be a reason why. Well, let's talk about that man who was in the suit because I did a bit of a deep drive. Okay, so there was. That's him? Okay. Okay. There was a lot of controversy surrounding normal chap just a guy oh david oh david so there was like a lot of controversy did he do something

well just around barney as a whole so like for the barney franchise there were like all these rumors about drugs etc the guy who voiced barney was the one who was i think potentially on drugs we don't there's a lot going on the guy who voiced barney is not the same guy who played barney no okay yeah so the voice behind barney is having some speculation but the man who was in the suit oh is this guy we did um a deep dive and he's a tantric masseuse who fucks his clients for the low low price of 350 what do you mean he fucks his clients just wait so let me just maybe read a clip from his website. I began studying Tantra at the tender age of 20. I've been very fortunate

to study Tantra in other countries and learn from some of the most profound Tantra masters. I practice White Lotus Tantra, which focuses on the spirituality of a person. I am also trained as a Swedish massage therapist and a Reiki practitioner in which I embody all techniques in my sessions. As your kundalini, kundalani, kundalini rises and your sexual energy begins its upward journey through your chakras, your spirit becomes the beacon lighting the pathway to a very enlightened and deeper connection with the divine universal energy. So that's how he describes it. An article that Vice did about him described that a full-sensory session of tantra massage with the specialist and spiritual healer David lasts three to four hours and costs $350. For that price, female clients, the only kind he accepts, can expect to receive a ritual bath, chakra balancing, and a massage.

Also on the menu, cosmic mind-blowing orgasms. Is there like a money-back guarantee? If it's not mind-blowing, do you get it back? Well, it's three or four hours of work, so to get you to that spot. So I guess the basic philosophy of Tantra is that all women are goddesses. And when touching the goddess or being intimate with the goddess, you should also understand you're touching the hand of God and her spiritual connection with God. The more you understand how much of a goddess you are and being able to live your life as a goddess, you radiate that energy. And that's the energy you will attract.

So this is, again, this is what David's saying about himself. Is Barney a sex worker? Well, Barney's not, but... David? David might be. Is this sex work? If you're paying...

Fascinating. He talks about, I think, the vocabulary used and also to be like, to be fair, like I know like Tantra is a tradition that exists all around the world. And like this is, you know, this is a very limited perspective on it. So this is in no way disrespectful. No shade to the beautiful medium and art form and practice that that is. We're just we're just talking about this Marty man because we're just talking about this marty man because we're just talking about stuff like when the lingam penis and the yoni vagina meet there's a certain energy that takes place on the body that hands alone cannot create so even through g-spot massage it's not the same

energy that flows so he's like he's like you need to let me fuck you basically i gotta sling them my lingam and yo yoni it's also like yoni's an unhinged name i have been saying for a long time like we need a different vaginas to clinical pussies to derogatory derogatory yeah it's like very crude like you got to be in a real mood to say pussy we need a different word yoni i don't know if yoni is it oh it What if we came into work Like two days from now And Amanda and I Have like matching Yoni tattoos

What's the tattoo of It just says the word Yoni Yeah Like what if we just got matching That'd be great I mean it'd be content for me I don't Okay

We'll get Yoni lip tattoos Well Godspeed Barney Old Barney Yeah And I'm glad Maybe Maybe it's best that he's an animated character now. Yeah. And to be clear, like-

Why is the guy who had to play a stuffed dinosaur and play with kids ended up being him? Like, why? Well, okay. So I think the point that could be made that this is above board is that he's always been a man who's been deeply focused on connection and love. And that earlier in his career, that looked like being a joyful presence on a set. And from there, that energy, that joyful energy became specialized later.

Show me your yoni. Anyway, there's a new Barney coming out. Wild stuff. How's my skin looking? Supple. Lovely. You know what my skin is like in the winter?

Dry. You know what I do about it Osea because Osea has this Andaria algae body butter

and that's how I stay so hydrated in the winter cold months I've never seen your skin dry and you want to

know why Osea correct yeah why do you think I look like a supple youthful god

Osea Osea so glad we covered our bases glad no one's confused here's my skincare routine my favorite supple, youthful God. Osea? Osea. So glad we covered our bases. Glad no one's confused. Have a nice day. And here's my skincare routine.

My favorite Osea product right now, because it's hard to pick, is the Ocean Cleanser. I really like it. I have combination oily skin. It does an amazing job of like cleaning my T-zone, which is where like oil builds up, but then also not being too drying on my cheeks.

It genuinely, like it's one of those like cleansers where it's like I just feel clean after but not like stripped away and like it visit like your skin will feel brighter it is so awesome I miss the my biggest complaint about my like staying over at my boyfriend's house is not using my ocean cleanser because it is truly that good I also I don't know if this is other people's issue. I do not remember to put lotion on after I get out of the shower. I realized that started like in college. And I have, Osea is single-handedly responsible for me having

moisturized elbows, knees, and everything else because they have an insanely awesome Undaria Algae Body Butter in addition to their oil. It's so good. They cover all your bases. From your face to your body in addition to their oil. It's so good. It's like they cover all your bases, from your face to your body.

I like their oil. Yeah. Their oil is really good. Osea has got you covered. And right now, we have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10% off your first order site-wide with code TVF at oseamalibu.com. You'll get free samples with every order and free shipping on orders over $60. So head to oseamalibu.com. You'll get free samples with every order and free shipping on orders over $60. So head to OseaMalibu.com. That's O-S-E-A Malibu.com

and use code TVF for 10% off. I have been using AG1 for years now and I love it. Here's the thing. It tastes great. I want to start there. It is a delicious drink that I just generally enjoy quenching my thirst with. Totally.

If I'm like, I don't want to have a soda or like a really sugary lemonade around lunch. Sometimes you just want some flavor. Just do. I'm just one of those people that finds water exhausting, and I like a little taste in my beverage. I'm tired of all the sugar and crap that goes into all these things.

Even those juices out there that claim to be healthy for you, when you turn on the label, they have more sugar. AG1 by Athletic Greens has so many wonderful nutrients and vitamins, and it's a great way to get the nutrients you need without taking all the vitamins and things like that. If you are looking for better gut health, if you're looking for more energy, if you're looking to sleep better, if you're looking for higher quality hair, these are all things I've experienced by being an AG1 customer by Athletic Greens and drinking it on the daily. I can't say enough good things about it. New habits are so hard to form. The nice thing about AG1 is that it's a habit that is easy to build because it's gratifying. It's really easy to just be like, I'm putting a scoop in. I know I'm getting this awesome nutritional foundation drink

and bada bing, bada boom. That's an easy way to take care of my body and show up for myself and without using too much energy so I think great habits make a part of your life the thing about AG1 is it's something you can enjoy every day and you can be like I'm tasting it a delicious drink and also be putting things in your body that are helping you feel better be better be healthier it's like a win-win. AG1's got you. They got you. Get on the AG1 train.

If you're looking for an easier way to take supplements, Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. A year's supply? Go to athleticgreens.com slash vile files. That's V-I-A-L-L-F-I-L-E-S. That's athleticgreens.com slash V-I-A-L-L-F-i-l-e-s that's athletic greens dot com slash v-i-a-l-l-f-i-l-e-s check it out you won't regret it trust us athletic greens ag1 has you covered get ready to feel great um sweet speaking of wild stuff super bowl halftime show uh Oh my God. Did you know she was pregnant right away?

No. I don't have opinions on whether women are pregnant or not. Totally. Especially like postpartum because like, you know, it's not like you- It is not my job to wonder if someone is pregnant. They will tell me. That's it. See, I was like, I immediately thought she was pregnant.

Yeah. I was like, oh, Rihanna's pregnant again. Yeah. And I didn't know it was a reveal. I was just like, immediately thought she was pregnant yeah I was like oh Rihanna's pregnant again yeah and I didn't know it was a reveal I was just like oh she's yeah she's been pregnant well because I I pulled up originally because I got the years wrong and I guess she had given birth or announced something like in January but that was January of last year so and then I was like oh she gave birth in May and I was just and then I got my years mixed up and so I was like oh she already announced it and then I was like oh no that was last year she is effortlessly cool oh my god I mean because like you know like she wasn't like working I'm sure she was working up a sweat I mean everything she was doing looked it was difficult and was in

sync but like she's just effortless it looks effortless and it looks very cool she just is cool like some people just have coolness. She is one of them. She has the X factor. Am I the only one, a perfect performance? This is- There are some people sad about songs she didn't play. Where was Shut Up and Drive?

Where was Disturbia? She has too many good songs. Every song that played, I was like, fuck yeah. But she only did Umbrella from Good Girl Gone Bad. And I'm like, that was, oh, that was like a really, that was a signature era for her. When you're that much of an icon i mean listen all to me all it says is that

she's been so successful that she can't she's always going to disappoint people by the things that she doesn't play which is a much better place to be in than people being like can you just play the one song i don't feel i don't feel entitled to it but like if she'd played ponder replay i would have freaked the fuck out like do you agree that it would have been a moment it would have been uh yeah it would have been great i was satisfied she left me uh satisfied as a viewer just like oh i thought you were gonna describe like david just like david she did to his clients. Yeah. You were the goddess. Different. I was the goddess.

I mean, different. Again, I was in my living room. You know, everything was fine. But I was- Rihanna did not need to use any physical touch. I was a satisfied customer in that moment. So I have no complaints. Okay.

But you know who's not a satisfied customer? Megan Fox. Just break up. Well, okay. Why are they fighting over Instagram there was an article that came out truly 40 minutes ago

that they MGK and Megan Fox left a couple's counselor building separately just now so it seems like a little intrusive yeah yeah that's one of those things fucking

weird it does feel a little icky to me just let people go to couples therapy good for them for going couples therapy yeah well I guess I view it i think it's like a positive thing i guess there's so much that's intrusive that's also fucking intrusive to like yeah you just like yeah everything's so intrusive you live in a world where everyone feels entitled wasn't there

didn't she made kind of cryptic mentions about infidelity yeah she quoted some lemonade lyrics uh which it's like i can taste the dishonesty on your breath hold on let me pull up the exact one uh yikes i hear you meg megan i hear you you can taste the dishonesty it's all over your breath she posted that yeah there's a comment or so she posts so she posted she made an instagram post that she since deleted i got a question for you that was her caption It was a comment? So she posted, she made an Instagram post that she since deleted. I got a question for you. That was her caption. I got a question for you.

And if she since deleted it, maybe it was a reactive, okay, fine, we react, we can regret. But let's say your partner fucks up. Let's say they cheat on you. You're a public figure. Like, what do you owe your partner? And obviously this is appropriate for the theme of this show what's appropriate in terms of sparing them the public humiliation and if you're gonna

like if you're gonna give details about their behavior are you better off just like explaining it in context rather than like breadcrumbing people like what is there and is there a right thing to do in that moment or is it just kind of like hey megan has the right to feel how she feels and and she's just going to respond like do we should we have opinions on how productive uh this type of behavior is i think that's what's so hard about messy situations like this is like when someone is hitting you with like bonkers crazy shit like fucking somebody else when you are in a loving, committed relationship. When you're engaged. They're engaged.

And so it's like, how much do we expect other people to be like getting crazy shit thrown at them and like reacting and handling it like a sane person? You know? Totally. Yeah. No, I, I, I empathize. It's just like, but like, I think as as an audience like sometimes as an audience we'll be like oh well that's i don't know that's more than i needed to know or something you know it's just

like the audience sometimes we decide oh well that's that's that's between them or that's private we'll want people to give us tea and then judge them for giving us us tea right sometimes in a way you know right or like we'll be so obsessed with this relationship and so info focused on like the love story of it all and tracking their every move and every time they make out in a public place and then it's like,

once it sours, does that, does following that relationship that closely or like the two separate entities become kind of fucked up? Yeah. I don't know.

Do you think they make it? They're in couples therapy right away. She deleted him off the, it wasn't just the post, she deleted him off Instagram. Yeah, just the post she deleted him off Instagram it almost sounds like reactive yeah because then she followed

Harry Styles and Eminem who is famously beeps with MGK oh so this is very much she found out whatever he did this was her like keying the car this was her like Carrie Underwood before she can unfollow these people and

she can delete comments but she can't go back and repost shit that she deleted of them well did she delete or did she archive that is a question is she holding out hope but if you archived it isn't what's it like are you really gonna put that shit back up yeah I guess people notice I've learned the power of

repair this year more than anything else. I was at my darkest hour. I thought this relationship was unsalvageable, but through the grace of God and therapy. You know what I mean? Fine. Sure. But wouldn't you want to just then focus on the future rather than the past? I say this with confidence.

But Instagram is also like it's a scrapbook. It's a photo album of memories and it whatever she and kelly might have done she's now going to look back on on a memory that she thought was existed and now it's it means something completely different do you guys have photos of your exes on your instagrams uh i think technically vanessa's still on mine buried way down and i actually thought of going back and deleting it but I was just too fucking lazy. I do. Yeah, I don't really think it means all that much.

It just depends on the people or the relationship. I mean, again, like I've been either single or with Natalie for so long that anyone on there, it's like, it would take me an hour. Like it's literally buried. Like 300, 400, some posts earlier do you take it as a red flag if you started seeing someone and they have their exes on their instagram let's say it's like not from recent let's say it's from like a year plus not really it's part of their

life yeah because in some ways i think it's a green flag because i feel like there's a big thing of people being upset that their partner won't post them on social media and feeling like that's kind of sus maybe i would love for someone to post me on social media that'd be fun yeah my boyfriend hasn't once posted and that's one of those things you can't say shit about it there's no way to say that without looking like i would like to be put on your grid because he doesn't use instagram that much like it's not like a thing he does like oh how much does he use instagram like he'll post like maybe once a year maybe twice a year then yeah but i'm still like it's it's it's a no-win situation because you can't you can't admit that you care about that kind of thing sure why not why can't you admit anything in a relationship why aren't all feelings valid you're not expecting

him to do anything why can't you just say hey listen if i'm being honest like and i know why you don't because you don't post a year, but like, sometimes I just wish you would or find a new, like, I think, you know, we get too afraid to express our feelings in relationships. And if what's the point of being in a relationship, if you can't be vulnerable with your partner, I think it's less that I feel entitled. And I'm like, why haven't you posted more? Like, it would be so lovely and nice for you to post like i would just it would be great if you did post like a nice sure like but why can't you even just have the conversation about the feeling well because then if it's like if it's a nice thing that you want them to do the second you ask them to do it kind of loses she wants to do his idea i mean i get it yes but

wouldn't you rather just feel more connected it's yeah it's not i don't think about it that much i'm just like oh my god i just remembered that and it hurts me i know you're not like losing your mind over it but i'm just i'm more talking about the idea of of whatever you're feeling being able to communicate that with your partner without judgment or frustration just to talk hey i feel this i don't even know what i'm feeling i don't even know what it means but can we talk about it and then you work through it and then maybe they respond in kind or whatever it is. Isn't that better than just like hoping that they make a move or they do

something that you would like? I think it's that I'm judging myself because I don't know that I'm like fully sure whether I think it's like, I accept that it's how I feel and I'm not judging it like, but I don't know if that's an impulse that I want to like validate and push on. Yeah, I hear you.

I just don't, I just like. It's a good point. Being a mind reader is not a love language. I don't understand why we feel the need to reward our partners for like reading our minds. And I understand there's paying attention to the small things. And initiative. And having initiative. But also just a lot, like also but our feelings change and the things we want change.

And sometimes in this particular case, he would have no reason to, like clearly Instagram isn't a priority for him. So why do you even be thinking about how you might feel about it type of thing? But you've acknowledged, and thank you for acknowledging it, that it would be cool if he just like figured it out. Totally. Well, I guess that's the thing

where it's like what someone views as mind reading, the other person just views as like listening. And maybe you can have a conversation about that. No matter what moves you made last year, TurboTax experts make them count. Did you say no to a big wedding and a lope at the county courthouse? Well, that's a move. Did you go back to school and get your degree? That is a move.

Did you relocate for a fresh start? That is literally a move. Maybe you moved into a houseboat instead of a house house, or switched gears from rideshare driving to video game streaming, or rode the stock market to the moon and back. TurboTax experts make all your moves count, getting you every credit and deduction you deserve. Filing with 100% accuracy and getting your max refund guaranteed.

Switch to TurboTax. Make your moves. We'll make them count. See guarantee details at TurboTax.com slash guarantees. Experts only available with TurboTax Live. Hold on to your kilts, dearies. Peacock original The Traitors is back with a new season of strategy, betrayal, sabotage, and murder. This killer season features an all-new celebrity cast that Vulture hailed as reality royalty, living in a Scottish castle for the ultimate murder mystery competition. We're talking fierce competitors, reality stars, and public figures battling it out for a whopping cash prize. This season's cutthroat missions are next level, just like whatever Alan Cumming pulls out of his brilliantly eccentric wardrobe.

One thing is for sure, these 21 players will do anything to avoid a plot in Alan's graveyard. Find out why critics and audiences alike are raving about the Emmy award-winning series The New York Times is calling it a murder mystery with clothes to die for, and Vox adding that it should be your new reality TV obsession. We are certainly obsessed. Stream every episode of Traders Now only on Peacock. Woo!

All right. Anyway, a couple housekeeping notes before we get to Raven. Don't forget tonight, Better Date Than Never, 9 p.m. Eastern. If you haven't checked it out, it is a live show

all about dating and relationships. We have people come in and talk about their stories. They have people come in and call in and talk about dates that are going on. We break down dates. It's all their stories. They have people come in and call in and talk about dates that are going on. We break down dates. It's all about dating.

It's a community of people just bouncing off ideas. It's live. It's at 9 p.m. Eastern. You have to download the AMP app. The details are in our show description. If you haven't checked it out yet, I highly encourage you to do it. It's super fun. We're creating a community of daters.

And if you feel a little bit frustrated and alone when it comes to your dating life, join our community. It's a ton of fun. A lot of best practices are shared. It's great. It's enjoyable. Don't forget to send in those questions at asknickatcastme.com, cast with a K. Also one programming note this episode. So if you're familiar with this show, we do texting office hours with our guests all the time. But we had a caller come in after we recorded with Raven that we thought was so like on the nose of this episode when it comes to infidelity and cheating and telling friends and kind of the lies that happen when cheating is going on. The ripple effect. The ripple effect of cheating and how it plays in the role of all these relationships. So we inserted that into our texting office hours. We also recorded one with Raven that we are going to play at the

end of our interview with Raven. So it's a long episode. Stick around again. And if you love, if you're new to the show, if you love these texting office hours, if you love hearing people's dating stories and feedback and things like that, we have a whole episode every Monday, Ask Nick, where people call in and share their stories every Wednesday on our Going Deeper episodes. We have these texting office hours.

So I hope that you subscribe and tell your friends, again, if you're new to the show. We're doing great things, obviously. Please don't fire me for saying this, but I suspect there are some people who are listening who are like kind of planning on plugging their nose through the nick of this interview and just want to listen to Raven. Totally. And so I think if you're-

Plugging their nose. Just like metaphorically. You got a bad taste. You've never once smelled bad in your life that I know of. Yeah. But they're enduring you to get to Raven But they are enduring you to get to Raven. They are enduring you to get to Raven. And if you are one of those people, I will say I did not know what to think of you before

working for you and before listening to the show. I will say I don't know that I came in with particularly positive associations. I was very pleasantly surprised. When you interviewed for this job, you pretended to like me? No, I said before I listened to the show. I was very pleasantly surprised when I actually listened this job well no pretended no i said before i listened to the show i was very pleasantly surprised when i actually listened to the show for the first time i was like oh damn okay against all odds this man has some very good things to say and so i'm just saying we are as a uh i guess as a hater this is a really interesting episode to be very honest yeah over two years into her employment, Amanda admits to hating Nick.

I'm doing it in service. I'm speaking to the people who may be feeling that way. Thank you. I'm going to cry. I'm leaving here for therapy. Derek, do you have any thoughts that you want to share

just in general about life, about this upcoming interview? Anything you want to just say. You know, I'm honestly really hung up on the barney stuff yeah do you think he makes them sing clean up clean up do you think it's more than 350 if they ask him to wear the suit how many of them know that he did that all of them that's the only way he has client base. You think so? What?

Apparently. No. Wait, the Vice article was like. Does he have like a Yelp page? Like what are people's reviews? Well, apparently there's word of mouth and Tinder, which I've, to be fair, when I was on Tinder, you see some entrepreneurs.

So do you think there's a Barney photo on his Tinder profile? Does he only have a LinkedIn? Well, that's the question. Would women be more or less interested in having sex with this man? I guarantee a lot of people are into it. Less would be interested, but the ones interested would be very much willing to spend the money because they'd have a kink. Repeat clients.

Yeah. That's the price point. Thanks for listening to us. Unplug your noses now. Unplug your noses. Raven's about to begin her journey of honesty and vulnerability. And again, we want to thank Raven for her time. It's not easy to talk about the things that she talked about.

I know we love bringing you guys some juicy and fun tea and things like that, but this shit was hard for her to talk about. And whatever you think of Raven or SK remember to be kind and remember it doesn't do you any good going to people's pages and saying mean shit and things like that but send uh Raven your love and support and and bring her joy and and thank her for all the things that she's done in her honesty and her vulnerability again this shit is really hard to talk about and so make sure you do that enjoy the episode we'll see you next week on monday ask nick and we'll also we'll see you tonight on better date than ever next week we have francesca farragut for all you uh netflix uh kind of love is blind too hot to handle uh we'll have her talking about uh perfect match which bartice which bartice is in you know

so be sure to check that out if you haven't watched it's really actually it's really good show it has hooked me it's good i'm very into it yeah so we'll be talking with francesca next week i'll be sure to check that out you do not want to miss that let's get to raven raven welcome hello thanks for having me well we're we're grateful for you to be here. Me? How's your heart, Raven? It's getting there. Getting there. You know, to be completely honest. On a scale of one to ten, zero being completely shattered and broken, and one being in love and joyful, where would you rate your heart?

From zero to 10? Zero to 10. Or one, I don't know. I'll give myself like a strong 6.5 right now. Okay, so we're on the way up. Yeah. We're over the hump, so to speak. We're over the hump, yeah, for sure.

That's good. Not that we want you to relive bad memories, but the people want to know. Yeah. And I feel like there's a lot, a lot, so many unanswered questions as it relates to your relationship with SK.

Yeah. And if you would be so kind, we'd love to go take that emotional journey with you. And let's think of this as like a cleansing episode. Hopefully by the time we're all done with this episode, we will be fully done with with sk the whole story the whole story exorcism yeah it's like a saging of the soul yes it is yeah well let's flush it down the toilet so to speak yeah yeah all right should we come up with more

analogies this is my life yeah get it so last time we talked to you we had the pleasure of talking to you via zoom it's so much nicer to have you in person oh my god thank you and lovely just to meet you in general but uh i i distinctly remember thinking of you is like of all the couples that came from that season i found myself like liking you guys the most, not to necessarily compare the others, and certainly you guys at that point, I don't even think you were even engaged, let alone married at the time, and there were.

But with these types of shows, sometimes everyone kind of has a different path, but there's certainly pressures, both internally and externally. And while I you know, while I was never on Love is Blind, I, you know, being on The Bachelor, it's not like even pressure necessarily comes directly from producers, but like you, you kind of know the assignment in your head. And so, you know, I just kind of, I really respected what it seemed like you and SK kind of, respected what it seemed like you and sk kind of despite being in this world you know following your own path so to speak and and you know maybe because even though you didn't get it you know

married and and i know sk said no but the fact that you guys were to an item and together by the time we talked i was like you know what i really respect this approach and it seemed like a healthy and mature conversation and you talked about how happy we were. I think we even have a clip we're going to play just to bring us back to that moment. And you're still together? Yeah, we're still together. So it's been a while now. Yeah. How long? How long has this relationship been going on? Oh, over a year. Pretty much since filming.

After filming, we had a weird space for a while. He, I think, within that week, had to move to California. So we definitely had a long transition period where we like, we still talked, but I don't, I think it's been like a little over a year that we were officially like, okay, like, you know, we're gonna be official and move forward and kind of pick up where we left off. But there is so much love there. And like, he is literally my best friend. So yeah, we've been making it work between Texas and California. That's awesome.

A couple questions on that. One, what advice do you have for anyone trying to make a long-distance relationship work? Ooh. I think go on love and spine. No, I'm just kidding. But really, what makes it work for us is that we have such a strong foundation that's really based in communication. So that I feel like is essentially what you

need for a long distance relationship. I trust him so much. And I also know that like we have such good communication skills between each other that if something's wrong or someone needs a little bit extra like poured into them or having a rough week, like we can be that for each other. So I think for me, what I have always looked for in a relationship is like a really strong partnership, you know, and we really have that. I'm sorry. No no it's okay well yeah obviously that's an emotional it's emotional to watch yeah how does that make you feel um it just really brings me back to like i really felt like that and i felt like you know we had filmed so long ago it was nice to kind of like finally talk about our story because like you said, it was so different, especially than everyone else's. And it was something we were really proud of. You know, we had some different circumstances like that made our relationship different culturally, the school thing thing having to move that was all against us and we still like made something really really cool work and like i was just so proud of us and like super in love so to watch that i'm like dang like i i really was like under a guy's you know spell i was under witchcraft i'm glad ellie and amanda suggested that we play that not you know not to necessarily bring back uh sad memories but that was what was it

november and like a week or two later that's when shit hit the fan yeah and all of a sudden a couple women started coming forward via tiktok or social media or whatever and and making accusations and claims that they had some kind of relationship with sk you know i know what it's like to have trust someone and only to realize that maybe i shouldn't have and if you're anyone who's ever been in that position, and I'm curious what you think, but there's kind of this like internal struggle of, you know, almost like you don't want to go against what you thought you felt, you know?

Like I said, I trust them. I put it out there. I do trust them. And so if I say I trust this person, these are the moments where I need to show them I trust them, especially, you know, when things come forward and, you know, and we live in a world where, you know, people do, you know, love, love some clout, you know, and they love attention. And that's usually kind of the first response to someone's defense in these type of scenarios. But I'd love, if you're willing to, to kind of bring us into that room and that time,

wherever you were, when you first found out about these rumors about SK having alleged relationships with other women. Yeah, so like you said, it kind of all came at different times with different women. But it started with one girl who he'd actually met in San Francisco. And when I found out about it, I found out with everyone else on TikTok. And this was actually right before Thanksgiving.

And he was at school and I was in Dallas. And yeah, just randomly, I want to say it was like early in the afternoon and just my phone started going crazy. Everyone sending it to me. Did you see this? And so, you know, I watched it a few times. She had some pictures and messages on there. I confirmed that it was actually like some of the same pictures he had sent me.

So I knew it was real. When you say pictures he sent you, what do you mean? So in one of those conversations, and again, this is with the first girl that he met in San Francisco on Hinge. He was in Austin during these pictures that I'm talking about. This was, I want to say, March. It was before my birthday. And I had just come back from austin with him we went to south by southwest he actually lived in austin for a while and so i had come back

from austin and he was just like sending me pictures he went on the lake with his brother you know and i was like oh you know i wish we would have had time to do that, whatever. Fast forward, she posts the same pictures he had sent me. Oh, so like the same background, same legs. Same exact thing. And like the same like update on my day. Yeah, same exact thing. I went to dinner with my brother. So glad he's updating multiple people.

Copy and paste. And it was literally verbatim, the same exact selfie, the same exact words. He basically could have put you in a group chat and here I am thinking like I just said in the clip like I thought we had the strongest foundation like we were coming from a place like I trusted him with anything like in everything so I never would have thought to me it's like you feel the same way about us you're talking to us the same way he actually invited her to Austin. I'm like, OK, you literally we just went to Austin.

He stayed. Then you're going to turn around and fly another girl out. And it ended up not happening. And that was kind of his saving grace for not me forgiving him for this first thing that came out. I didn't like forgive him for it. But I was like, OK, it was just a hinge date. You know, he didn't have much to, not much came of it.

The girl never went to Austin. So it was a lot of hurtful words, yeah. And it was hard to see, like he was entertaining someone with like the same exact information he was giving to me and I'm someone he's known for a long time. So what did he first

say when this came out did he own up to it a little not really um which will what do you mean by a little not really yeah um do you remember like his exact like phrasing or response at first it's funny because this is a thread throughout it any time there would be like a moment like this there'd always be lots of hesitation and at this point he didn't answer the phone for a while and i knew he just went dark on you yeah for a little not many ghosted a mini go and i mean we're like because we're so good at we were so good at communicating because we've been long distance for a while now. Like there's never a time he's not going to answer the phone for me, especially when his whole family was sending this to him too. Right. So I think he didn't answer me back for like an hour or two. in the pattern that you had. But every time, something would go kind of, it was always this. He would always kind of go dark for a little bit

to get his thoughts together. And this was kind of the start when I started putting the pieces together from every other time he's acted similarly. So when he first, after an hour or two, what was he saying to you? He was like, yeah, it's true.

I met this girl on Hinge. We met one time. It wasn't a date. Like I met her out after a club or whatever. You know, I was texting her. I did send her those pictures when I was in Austin. And I'm sorry for that. But all I did, I saw her physically one time.

I'm curious, like in your head, as you were trying to process this, like what were the two sides of it? Like what were you kind of going back and forth between in terms of like your, the way you were making sense of this all? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure this is the part we were kind of talking about this for. That's like, people are going to think and say like, girl, like you should have known you should, you know, and yeah, I should have known, you know, but everyone goes through this where, you know, we had never had, and it's not that this was a thing in our relationship. I'd never really had a feeling. There were little things along the way that I kind of pushed down, but it's not like I had girls DMing me all the time. Oh, I was with your man, you know? And I truly trusted him so much i mean by this point when

i'm finding all of this out we already like have an apartment together like we already like do everything together we already were like making plans to move to la together like so it's you know i'm like he wouldn't be doing all of this if he wasn't into it. Yeah, you're kind of trying to rationalize. Yeah. Which makes sense. I've been there. Yeah.

You know, when I found out, you know, this is a long time ago that I was being cheated on. And my, her friend and my best friend's, you know, girlfriend at the time, and she's also a friend, was just like, you know, she's cheating on you. And I was just like, you know, like you just, you're inclined, like when you're in a relationship and you decide, oh, we trust each other. Like, yeah, you think this is the time I'm supposed to have the back of the person I say I love and I'm going to defend their honor. I'm going to defend their character. And sometimes those people use that against you. Yes. Yes. Totally. person I say I love and I'm going to defend their honor. I'm going to defend their character. And sometimes those people use that against you. Yes. Yes, totally. And also I was telling myself, okay, these messages were from March. By this time, it's almost Thanksgiving. It's a few days

before Thanksgiving. I'm like, okay, you know, our relationship had honestly progressed so much since I know, but again, see, I still tell myself things, but we were in a far different place by the time it was November. And that's- Oh, that makes sense. You know, we had grown a lot. You think about the progress you made

and how far you've come. And then you're just like, well, you know, we met on a show and that's fucked up. And like, yeah, I get it. You try to find ways to like give them grace. And benefit of the doubt. Benefit of the doubt. Cause it never happened before.

So I'm like, okay, this was in March. Now it's the end of November. You know, I'm going to ride for you. And that was the conversation that those first three days until the next one dropped. And then what happened? And then it just kept bomb. And then what was that like? What was going on then?

So the second one was far worse. I think the second one, kind of how you touched on like the clout thing. I don't mean, of course it was a little, but she was under the guise, like she felt like since the first girl did it, like she felt more inclined, you know, to come out with her truth, which God bless, because I would have never known. But yeah, by the time the second girl came out on TikTok, he was already back home. So we were together at this point physically at our apartment in Dallas. And again, we're just sitting in our kitchen and both of our phones start going crazy. We watched the video. You watched it together?

Yeah. Yeah, I'm pretty sure we watched it together. Wow. And then what was your reaction? do you remember who spoke first probably me silence because he does that thing where he's got to go ghost for a little bit and get the lies together so i i don't know why i do this thing or i did do this thing where anytime i get upset, I'd like go in my closet and like close the door. You know, you got to go in a small space. I've done that before.

It's helpful. It's helpful. You got to go in a small dark space and cry. And so he always comes to my closet with me and we lay on the floor and it just feels more, I don't know. That motherfucker. Because like, that's your safe space.

Yeah. And then's your safe space. And then I can picture it. He gets in there and he cuddles up and he tells you it's okay. And then you're probably thinking like, well, this feels right and normal. Yeah. And I mean, that one was far more damaging. What was his excuse then? So that one, this was a girl had had a quite a long past with so she he was able to use that to his advantage because a lot of the stuff

she put in there was from like 2018 2019 right and um so i'm like okay you know that had nothing to do with me and you guys had filmed and obviously there's gaps between when things are filmed and when things are aired yeah and even part of it was that right after filming like i said we were not a thing and immediately within maybe maybe a week tops he went to europe right after we wrapped, right after our wedding. He went to Europe. And I knew we were still cool. We still talked every day, but not on a relationship.

And this is mid-July 2021. So this is way before everything that we've been talking about. Like mid-July, he goes to Europe. He tells me it's with friends. He actually, this was really the hurtful part of this part of it was he invites me to Europe with them. He's like, come please. And I'm like, you know, we've been filming so much.

I need to get back to work. Like I just have to go to work. So I don't go to Europe. Come to find out he took her. And- Do you think he knew you were too busy to say yes yes 100 i think he just invited me just to invite me but he knew i wasn't gonna go um because literally he he invited me and the trip was like three days later like who can i i can't do that one thing about sk i never thought

is that he was stupid he's a very very smart guy never yeah and isn't it funny that he was always like i love raven because she's so smart i'm like because you're smarter than me i'm just kidding but yeah no it's i'm so disappointed in the guy i liked him so much when i watched the show do you i feel like we talk a lot about whether they end up being true or they're not like these kind of tiktoks have become more of a common thing of let me expose this person or here are the receipts, whether it's Love is Blind, whether it's Bachelor. And I think something we talk a lot about is why didn't they just DM someone privately? Like the Susie and Clayton, why didn't she just reach out to Susie? Why did she have to get her 15 minutes?

But you also said, you know, God bless her for posting this because that's the only reason I knew. But do you wish she would have just addressed you individually? 100% because the outcome would have been the same. If she would have sent me these receipts myself, I would have still broken up with him. Yeah, because you're right, because I remember watching that video and I'm, you in some ways I think I feel find myself protective of my reality tv peers right because there are a lot of like there are a lot of clout chasers out there and people who come out with stories that have a you know a wrinkle of truth but not and I remember seeing that video it looked like someone clout chasing who very much wanted attention and so yeah they almost like,

and two things can be true at the same time. You know, her story can be true and she could have wanted clout, but the part of you that wanted to believe SK, I'm assuming over kind of emphasized the clout aspect of it as opposed to what parts of her story were true. Yeah, yeah. and also i think

what worked to his benefit um was that when she released this or come to find out right before i didn't know this but right before she released this they were they were talking the two of them were texting back and forth and she said um i want to meet with you blah blah because she lives in dallas as well um i want to meet with you xyz and he wouldn't meet with her and then i guess she ghosted posted it texted him back and was like i'll take it down if you give me 300k so So she tried to extort him. Yeah. Yeah. At least that's what he told me. Which. Yeah.

Who knows? Yeah. How did you find out he took her to Europe? The pictures. Oh, the pictures. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

And I know it was, again, it was literally a week after the show wrapped, but the part that hurt me was that he told me stories about it, right? That you invited me and that you told me it was a group trip, blah, blah, blah. Come to find out after Europe, they extended their trip, stayed together in London a bunch of times. Was he not reaching out to you while he was in Europe? Yeah, he was. He's really good at that. Yeah, he was. What was he doing?

Like FaceTiming you? I don't think we FaceTimed while he was there. But yeah, we were texting again this is why we weren't together so it was not cheating but it was lying okay it was shady as shit but technically yeah it was it to me it was hurtful it's like by that time we were already like so and even though we hadn't we didn't get married we weren't together like we were so close you can tell me the truth he could tell me anything like we would we told each other everything so just tell me like hey you know my ex is about to come on this trip and i'll say okay like you know

thanks for i would literally say thanks for letting me know instead of a over a year later like learning about it on t. You're in the closet. He comes in, violates your sanctuary. What was his new story now? Yeah, so his story about the first video from this specific girl was that it was mostly pictures from 2018, that it wasn't cheating

because when he took her to Europe, it was right after the show. That was his thing. And those were all understandable. My issue was that he lied about how she actually got there. She also in that tick tock put a lot of their text messages that were a lot more recent. They had basically still been in communication this whole time.

Did you ever, have you ever spoken with her directly? No, I've never spoken to this girl. I've never seen her. She's never reached out to me, but her best friends actually, once she released a second video, which we haven't talked about, but her best friends actually called me one night.

Really? Yeah. While I was home with SK, they called me. It's another couple. They were basically like we're so sorry this is happening to you. You know. They actually told me like some crazy stuff

that this girl was like trying to come take my Pilates classes. Like weird stuff. Yeah. So at that point. What was their energy? Was it kind of warning you about her and him? No, their energy was warning me about her.

Her? Yeah. And saying like, we just want to let you know. You're kind of being stalked almost. Yeah. You're kind of being stalked. She's like obsessed with you as well. We know SK messed up.

Like, please take him back. She's trying to portray that they were together they really weren't together it was more of just a sneaky link these are her friends her best friend and her boyfriend why but why would yeah why are they going to bat for sk how do you know that they were really her friends well because i only know i mean what are the chances sk hired a couple of actors or some shit? I don't know. No, yes. So basically. I don't know what he's capable of at this point.

Yeah. No, they were. There's pictures of all of them together because in her second video that she posts days later, the four of them, SK and the girl in that couple that I'm talking about that called me, they went to Cabo in May this is way after they went to Cabo in May at that point you guys together at that point we are together I mean I think him and I would both agree we were pretty much solid by my birthday which was in April he knew my intentions I I was not interested in dating anyone else.

We were very close at this point. I had already gone to San Francisco multiple times. So when she came with the second video in Cabo, it turns out that they had all gone on a couple's trip. And this was actually a week after him and I went on my birthday trip to New Orleans, which is where I'm from. And we like stayed with my mom. And it was, you know, I told him how important this was to me. This isn't something that I normally do. You know, I'm trying to show you like I'm really ready to do it right outside of Love is Blind. And then literally the next weekend, went to Cabo with her, told me he was in school the whole time. I was like texting him. We were talking like normal.

And he was really in Mexico with her. How did you find out about that? So before that video came out, after the first one had come out, there was like about let's I don't know exactly how long, but less than a week. I think it would be less than a week between her two videos. but less than a week, I think. It would be less than a week between her two videos. So once the first one dropped of hers, which is the second video because the first girl was a different girl,

I kept saying, tell me everything right now and it'll be fine. Just tell me, right? Like you wipe this slate clean and I'll ride for you because at least I'll know. And he kept saying, nothing, nothing. You have nothing to worry about.

You have nothing to worry about. And then one night, I mean, at this point, like, I mean, I like, I'm an emotional person, but like I've, I was crying on the floor. Like I'm not like that, you know? And one night it had been a long long very emotional day for both of us and we were in bed at like past midnight just talking and he was like i have to tell you something and i was like nothing could be worse than this did your heart just drop at that point yeah because i'm like i don't even know what to expect at this point. My life, like I truly, I was like, I feel like my life is crumbling before my eyes.

Don't we just like wish in general, people would stop like prefacing bad news. It's like, hey, don't panic. Or I need to tell you something. It's just like, just don't be mad. Don't be mad. Don't be mad. You know, just fucking just say it.

Never has someone been less mad because you prefaced it with don't be mad. You just stole two seconds of happiness from me that I could have had back You know, just fucking just say it. Never has someone been less mad because you prefaced it with don't be mad. You just stole two seconds of happiness from me that I could have had back before you just... Because it's either going to be as bad as you thought or not as bad. You're going to have a heart attack for no reason. Yeah. And also, the worst is when they're like, if I tell you, do you promise not to be mad at me?

That is like the most manipulative... Sorry. But going back to like he says says we're just like ranting about it i'm just like fuck this guy just say it yeah so anyway so you're in bed and he's like i gotta tell you something yeah we're in bed and i remember he was like laying on the headboard and i was like kind of by his feet and i sat up and i was like just say it and he was like i took her to cabo and i said what are you talking about he was like i told you her to Cabo. And I said, what are you talking about? He was like, I told you I was at school. It was in May, but I wasn't at school.

I was in Cabo with her on a couple's trip. And my heart just sank. And I made him tell me when. It was literally a week after we had come back from New Orleans. Oh, God. That point was, like, the first time when I started using the words, like, we're about to be done. Like, you're pushing it way past my limit because this is a bold-faced lie,

and you knew we were together at that point. You can't argue it. At this point in May, we had gone back and forth to seeing each other to see each other every like every month like we were together at this point we were already planning our couple's trip which is which was in june with the two other couples from the show and it's funny because when we were on that trip in june he told me oh i've never been to mexico before and so now i know girl girl girl that i was sick i was sick i'm like why here i am like in tulum like baby this look at mexico isn't mexico great isn't don't you love it don't you love it like? Don't you love it? Like having the best time.

And I had no clue. I had no clue. Like literally the month before he was there with her. So that was really, really hard. Like that was the first. I remember that was the first night. I was like, okay, like, look, I don't know what's about to happen, but I'm done with you. And this was before the video had dropped with the Cabo stuff.

And I'm like, you better just pray she doesn't post this. Like, because that's going to kill me even more and we're definitely going to be done. So for the people out there who are just, you know, listening to this and saying, Raven, girl. I know, I know. Like, why weren't you done already like what what would you say to that yeah i would say to that again when you trust someone and you're what you guys saw on tv was the person that i felt i was with right someone who's so intelligent and kind and attentive to me and my best friend and in love like you keep like you were saying earlier you keep telling yourself well that's the person that i'm

with and at this point there was so much evidence that before the cabo thing dropped there was so much evidence that this was a lot of old stuff and yeah he had lied about the old stuff he hadn't told the whole truth but there wasn't a lot of actions yet you know yeah until more of those actions started coming out that's when i was like okay it's the real deal but i'm not giving myself excuses but i think a lot of women go through this sure i went people that too yeah yeah if I said it almost sounded like you and I think a lot again people can relate to this but you you prioritize the way in which he you know made you feel happy and and deprioritize the ways he kind of disappointed you or made you sad yes totally and I think at a lot of points in our relationship,

there were so many times where I was, and I don't know another word, but I was so confused because my intention and my actions were so aligned with how I felt. Like I was all in, I want to marry this person. Like I'm so loyal. I want to serve him. I want to make sure, you know, he's comfortable in a safe space that we're like in a great partnership together. And sometimes I would confuse, cause I thought he was on the same page as me, but then he would act differently. So constantly we would get it. You know what I'm saying? Like, it was like I was thinking one thing, but then something else was before my eyes and it would make me so confused. And then I realized, of course, after the fact, like it's

because he really wasn't there with me. He really he and he we've talked about it after the fact, but he really wasn't putting in 100 percent. And I was. I'm curious in retrospect, because I think sometimes when you learn about this like earth shattering truth and it kind of recontextualizes all of these details and all these experiences you shared, like kind of looking back on that. To what extent do you think people can try to avoid being cheated on? And to what extent it's like part of love is taking the leap of faith, giving the benefit of the doubt, not scrutinizing their every action and looking for the ways that they could that this has really taught me because I've never been someone like that. I'm like, you guys, you know, like, you know, I'm not like that anymore. Like I am so ready to be vulnerable now. But also what this has taught me is that you've got to listen to your gut feeling. So if you, you know, if you're suspecting something, it's probably because something's there, Or if it's something small that just annoys you because of your past, that's different. But if you have a gut feeling, nine times out of ten, it's for a reason. thought back in terms of these conversations you're at the edge of the bed he's you know and you're kind of thinking about you know these kind of reflections of not trusting your gut

you clearly asked some questions and you kind of pleaded with him to give you answers do you feel like there was a part of you you know maybe it's ego maybe it's just a fear of the truth or whatever it is do you feel like you stopped short of asking more follow-up questions because i think i remember you know when i was in that position and confronting you know i you know i wanted to believe my girlfriend at the time when i heard she was cheating on me but i still like asked her about it i wanted her to tell me it wasn't true. I wanted her to come up with an excuse that I could believe. And as soon as she came up with something that, you know, whatever part of it was that wanted to believe her, I stopped asking questions. I was like, you know, I didn't think to myself, I don't know if that makes sense, but what about this?

And like, you know, really getting, asking those follow-up questions that are kind of hard to, you know, unless you really have a very detailed lie, it's hard to kind of answer. Do you feel like you stopped short in those moments? Or if you will look back, are there other questions that you wish you would have asked to maybe kind of find out whether he was really telling the truth or not? I think for me, I was so like, just tell me everything like right now and it'll be okay. Just tell me everything. Just tell me everything. And every time he wouldn't tell me everything,

but I kept letting that slide because every time he'd tell me a little more and then I'd say, just tell me everything right now and we'll be fine. We'll stay together. I promise. And he still, every time a little bit more would come out. And I'm like, why did you need to keep going? I mean, at one point it had been weeks and it was still happening. I was still begging, just be honest. Just tell me. And he still wouldn't.

And I'm like, why did I put myself through that? Because the first two days you should have just already known. did I put myself through that? Because the first two days you should have just already known. And if he wasn't willing to just completely just come clean, like clearly he's not willing to be honest with himself or you. So that's kind of where I was. I, you know, I kept just waiting for him to do the right thing. That's what it was. There was a time right when this was all going on. I don't know where you were but i remember when seeing this there were posts about lawyers you know oh lawyers are involved i even remember talking to one of your producers and even the producer was telling me you know i don't know what's going on

but apparently there's they've gotten lawyers because you know know, what I understood it at the time was these allegations were all false. And SK was hiring a lawyer to go after the person making these accusations because it was, you know, defamation type of claims or things like that. Like, what was that all about? Yeah. That was started from the um extortion thing um yeah and then kind of the part that we haven't really touched on yet is while we're going through all this there was like so much manipulation and gaslighting and gaslighting. He really was just worried about saving his career in his face, you know, and he wanted to get lawyers involved to like make people take these claims away.

So it wouldn't look bad for him. What was he telling you about the lawyers? Yeah, I was there at home listening to him and the lawyers on the phone all day every day and basically he was like this is for my career that's literally what he said the entire time this is for my career did him talking to these lawyers play a role in you believing him like probably yeah or wanting you know it's just like he's willing to fight yeah for his you know but he he wasn't fighting for me he was fighting literally i mean like the hardest part of it was how he responded to all of this basically by the end of it saying, like, what do you want me to do? Like, I want to help you. I, you know, I love you, but what do you want me to do?

And basically, his answer was for me to say that, like, we weren't dating the whole time. To make these claims. He asked you to lie for him. Yes. And that was, like, just the most horrible thing for my life. He asked you to lie for him. me disappear because at the time you were also facing criticism from fans about you kind of being in on it or a part of this you know some sort of plan to just you know get famous from the show yeah and so he didn't he didn't seem to really care empathize with that at all he actually asked he literally asked you to do what you were being accused of and wasn't true at that point yeah

yeah and i think a little bit at this time especially the sentiment it seemed after our wedding episode was you know a lot of people had started to like me a little bit more and started to like they felt like i was being more genuine, I guess. And you know, that's how everyone has a character arc. But his whole thing was like, everyone loves you, you're everyone's favorite. And now everyone hates me. Can you please just say it wasn't true? So it'll save me a little bit.

Like, I mean, that's what was being pushed into my head, like every single day. And it was getting so confusing to the point like I almost felt like I mean, because by this point it was over a week probably. And I just felt like he was only staying in our apartment like. To make sure that I was doing things. To play by his rules and make sure to make sure I wouldn't tell things to play by his rules and, and make sure to make sure I wouldn't tell the truth and control you. Yes.

And it was getting to the point, like by the last few days, like I literally would like not even be at our house because I, I felt like I was being monitored. Like I was getting support on social media from people like, you know, and of course there were a lot of critics, but I was getting support and he media from people like you know and of course there were a lot of critics but I was getting support and he would send that to producers and be like this is what people are saying to Raven don't let Raven post anything you should tell Raven to take the anything I would say whether it any anything I would say he would ask for it to

be taken down he would try to report me to authorities. Like it was just, I was under such a microscope. But meanwhile, I'm like, I am grieving an entire loss, like in front of you. And you were just shoving, like, I just felt like I was just being shoved down. It was all about his reputation. It was crazy. Like I literally, producers would call me and me and you know just to check on me or like you know at that point they were like you know what is happening and i'm like he only cares about his reputation like it did not matter what i was going through yeah i also heard from uh producers and maybe you can add some context to this that he was almost it was like kind of this three-way conversation he was telling

you one thing and then telling producers another thing and then and and then hoping that producers would tell you almost to get the producers to convince you almost to get the producers to convince you of something i don't i don't know but i i was i was i heard that they were they kind of caught sk in a lie too trying to almost manipulate hoping that they would manipulate into believing certain things is that is there truth to that yeah i mean yeah like i said like he would send like the slightest little thing i would say on social media he would not say anything to me and then he would send the slightest little thing I would say on social media. He would not say anything to me. And then he would send it to them. And they would come back to me like, Raven, what did you do?

Did you post something? And I'm like, no, I didn't say anything besides I responded. Someone said, thank you. And then I'd go back to him and he'd be like, well, you're not supposed to comment on anything. Analyzing my every action to see if it was against him you know it was very much operation keep brave and quiet from saying the truth when did you realize this was going on because i guess the elephant in the room is we just watched uh you guys get re-engaged yeah only obviously for that to end but what made you reconsider

despite all this why did you say yes again even if for a short period of time so everything that i'm just saying we were already engaged at this point like you already re-engaged before all this before all the cheating yeah so all of this is happening when we already have a lease together and we're already engaged again so when did you guys get engaged um in august isn't that around the same time when he and the girl were somewhat planning a trip but then he bailed last minute because of school oh so when we got to interview we didn't get to that part we didn't get to know that you guys are engaged because of school? Oh, so when we got to interview you, we didn't get to that part yet. We didn't get to know that you guys are engaged

because of after the, it was, you guys didn't know yet. We weren't privy to that information. Yeah. You guys didn't know that yet. So he was planning a trip

with this TikTok girl when he had a ring on her finger? Yeah. Oh, you were engaged? We were in, we were literally engaged and,

Oh, well that makes it so much, I mean, in that point, yeah, then of course you want to fucking believe the guy. We were literally engaged. Well, that makes it so much worse. I mean, at that point, yeah. Then, of course, you want to fucking believe the guy. I'm like, why would he get engaged to me again and do all of this? And literally text this girl, like, just the skeeziest. They were planning a trip.

And then he pulled out just because of school. Because of school because of school but you know what he told me he said i didn't go because because i realized it was wrong i'm like no you didn't no you didn't interesting i said well why didn't you invite me he said well it wasn't a trip you take your girl on i'm like you're cheating on her why would you even go on a trip that you shouldn't take your girl on? Was this the boat trip? It was a couple.

It was the mega yacht trip. Yeah. To Miami. It was literally like him and his buddies inviting girls to go on a boat. What was it, Miami or something? And then he pulled out because he said he had school. And that was in September. And we were already engaged by then.

But is that a different trip than the couple's trip? Yes. The couple's trip was in May. We weren't engaged in May. We weren't engaged in May, but we were engaged in August and he was still. I feel like a couples trip. So intimate. It's weirdly more intimate.

It's very intimate. It's especially, I mean, what made me so sick about that is literally the weekend before him and I had, had like the most intimate trip to my hometown. Took all of our couples pictures, right? Like, haha, the next weekend he goes and takes couples pictures with this girl. Yeah, that's, you know.

Kissing, they were kissing in these pictures. I'm like. Yeah, that's so much more intimate. I mean, Natalie and I recently, you know, got engaged and after, you know, you reflect a little bit. And then you, I just thought of like, got engaged and, and after, you know, you reflect a little bit and then you, I just thought of like, we, we had friends there who are couples and like,

there's something about, you know, double dating with friends that like, there's a bond there, you know? And that fucking. Cause it's like an us thing. Yeah.

Like it's an us relationship. It's like the two of us have this connection. Like when you make friends as a couple, it's different. It's different. And there it, yeah connection with another us. When you make friends as a couple, it's different. And there's something you're doing together. You're building something together. Yeah. You're building your circle, your friends.

Yeah. I am so sorry you've had to deal with all this. I know, right? For a lot of people who get cheated on and go through what you've gone through, it can really affect them long term and their ability to trust in the future i really try my best and as someone who had been cheated on you know i i always i didn't want to be that person you know so i had to work really hard at still choosing to trust my next partner where do you think you are and your ability to not let this experience

um you know affect you when you start dating or or meet someone else are you i mean what are you what's your relationship status now yeah um i'm definitely dating you're definitely dating okay is there a special someone i think think. You think? I think. I don't want to juice it. Let's just give it. Let's just. We love that. I know.

So how, you know, now there's someone. Are you able to reveal who? No. Why am I getting emotional about this? That's hopefully exciting. Like, I feel so cliche saying this. It's so sick. But like, I am such a different person from all of this. Like, I've really learned so much. And thank God for growth, because I'm not perfect either. You guys saw me. I was never vulnerable on the show. I was always standoffish. I didn't really believe like, you know, like I've never been someone who's like super

receptive of love. And I think now I'm just like, I want to just go into something with 100% of my heart. And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. And that's okay. Because I know like I put everything that I have into it and I don't have any walls up. And like, I want that. I, I want to show up as me and see what happens. I think brought me someone pretty great who's also seems to be in that place. And it's amazing to start something like from a place of vulnerability and like communicating where you are, you know? So, yeah. And I assume that,

you know, you're, I'm guessing you've probably had to keep that relationship under wraps as well for, for a period of time. Yeah, and it's very new. I, like, probably shouldn't be talking about it. But, you know, like... You're optimistic.

I always say I'm delusionally optimistic. I really am. Like, I... I always said I'd rather be a fool than be a jaded cynic when it comes to love. Same. If the worst thing we do is choose to trust and believe in people and be suckers for it, that's better than the alternative. Agreed. And like, I'm so ready because, I mean, to be honest, I thought this whole, I was really looking forward to this whole post-show thing.

Like, I wanted to do that with SK. Like, I wanted to go into this new part of our lives together. I was looking for, like, we had already started looking at properties in LA to move once he graduates. Like, I was so excited to start a new chapter. And I know that's not the chapter that I'm starting but like I'm really ready to live my life differently and do that with someone when was the last time you spoke with us okay um probably like two weeks ago why what was that conversation why that's literally the same thing my mom said why well who reached out to who uh he reached out to me yeah and what did he have to say he

he did say you know i see how i was so worried about myself and protecting myself that i didn't really care about how you were feeling and he acknowledged that for the first time which was nice to hear you know but doesn't really change anything um did he and he acknowledged that for the first time which was nice to hear you know but doesn't really change anything um did he and he apologized yeah yeah he apologized and of course he was like you know i'd love to work on things yeah he tried to try to get back together oh yeah this whole time girl i know i know this whole time everyone in america is like no but that's like yeah fuck you you burn the bridge the closet door is shut stop trying if you really knew what you did and you fully understood the hurt he caused he wouldn't have asked you to get back together

i don't right i think i mean and there's so much more to like we haven't even touched on but what can we touch on it I mean um yeah I think he's just thinks that I'm gonna get over it you know and so he's still trying no I mean not since that conversation because I told him like I could even feel so finally it took him a while to leave our house and that was extremely hard for me what do you mean it took him a while to leave your home like when all of this was happening um like we he was on break from school so we were literally living together and I mean when the second video dropped, the second, technically the third video, but the second video from the second girl dropped, it had the Cabo stuff in it. And literally an hour before, I didn't know it was going to come out.

Okay, the night before he tells me about Cabo, right? Then it's like the next day in the afternoon of almost about 24 hours later, we're standing in the kitchen. And I'm like, show me your phone. This was the first time I said, show me the phone right now. Have you been talking to her while we've been going through this? And he's like, no, no, I haven't been talking. I said, okay, show me the phone. He shows me the phone. And that's when I find out about Miami. He had still never told me about Miami. I start scrolling through the messages and I see it. And I said, September, we were already engaged by this point. He's, I didn't go. I didn't go. I said,

I don't care. I said, first of all, we're done here. And if she puts this on the internet, it will literally break my heart. Like, because I can't go through anything else. Like, literally break my heart like because I can't go through anything else like we're done you need to leave the house like I'm over it and he's like oh you know whatever I get really upset again because this is this was like the hardest part for me literally as soon as I said it she posts the second video with all of the Cabo with all of the Miami and I like lost it like I've we've never screamed at each other like that before. Like it was crazy. Um, why was he screaming back? I know. And I shouldn't have taken it there either. It's like, I almost spoke it into existence. And that was the first time I'd ever seen the phone and seen

for real. I mean, even October 9th, he texted her happy birthday 10 days before the show came out. What is the name of your book? What is the name of your book? Don't text your ex happy birthday. Thanks for the plug. No, go buy the book, y'all. So that it got crazy out of hand at this point. Like, you know, producers know producers are telling me don't say anything. Don't say anything. I'm going. My friends are like, what is happening? Are you OK? You need to get out of your house right now. And I said, you need to leave. And he wouldn't leave. Then the next day, like the craziest part when you asked me earlier, like, when did you realize you were really being manipulated? The next day, one of the producers called me on the phone and she was like, I want to tell you that when all of this came out, like, I was so happy about it. Like, I'm so glad that you guys are not together now and I'm like what are you talking

about she's like there were so many things we thought you knew about him and we're just choosing to stay with him but now we see that you had no idea what was actually happening and I was like first of all why didn't anybody say anything but um so apparently after we got engaged he backtracked went back to producers and set and started like pleading with them to take it out um take what out the engagement and she was like don't say at this point she knows like i don't know what to do and she's like don't say anything that i told you you know know, we're going to just wait and see when he leaves. But we thought you knew and we thought you guys were breaking up because he was so insistent. He didn't want the engagement to be aired. And I had no idea. At this point,

it was like it was like over a month after the engagement had i had no idea he did that and it was like that was the last straw for me so to make sure we all understand you had no like you had no idea that he had reached out to producers and you thought you guys were in a decent this is like september that clip that when i talked to y'all was in November. I still had no idea he went to produce. I had no idea he went to producers till Thanksgiving. But he went to producers in October when we were here filming a reunion.

We're filming reunion, and he went off the grid, remember? No one could find him, couldn't get a hold of him. Everyone was freaking out. Come to find out, he locked himself in a van with one of the producers and was like, you gotta take the engagement out. You gotta take the engagement out.

Literally hours later, comes back home to our hotel is being so weird. We get in the biggest fight. He tells me he was sad about his mom or something. Yeah. And really what it was, was that he was- You thought you were good. Yeah.

At that point, I had no idea. This was before you came on our show and talked about how- Yes. I had no idea. How good things were, how much you trusted him. I had no idea until the producer called me after all this, after y'all's clip, after everything came out, called me and she was like, I thought you knew he asked to take the engagement out. How would I know that? Did he ever explain to you or any producer why he was asking for it to be taken out? wrong with him my inkling is that the girl was already in his ear saying she was gonna say some that's that's I've never I brought it up to him once but I didn't push it because I could tell

he was lying he wasn't gonna tell me the truth and by this point that was the straw that broke the camel's back yeah that was like the level of manipulation. Like you literally did all of that on camera, got reengaged. It was for real. And then a month later, without even telling me or talking to me about it, you go back and you're like, please don't air it. Don't air it. I thought we were engaged. So let's say the producer listened to him. And then this whole let's say everything goes swimmingly and none of this comes out and you guys are still engaged

currently to this moment when you watch the episode aren't you gonna say where's our engagement and then that's weird that's a huge win for the show I don't know you sit down it's our engagement episode and you're like

where's yeah they're like oh wow like it's getting towards the end you're like oh i missed it really this must be the part right here like maybe we missed it yeah he didn't think that far ahead but yeah she literally called me and was like i thought y'all had broken up i thought you knew and now looking back i realized you had no idea like a really smart dumb guy. Well, I think it's like this level of hubris where if you view yourself as a smart problem solver, you think you'll be able to evade all consequences because you'll solve every single quote unquote problem. Never been to Mexico before.

You seem like you had a decent relationship with his mom. Had you spoken with her at all while this is all going on no um so like i said all of this was happening right before thanksgiving and i was supposed to go to thanksgiving with him like ticket bought bags packed and then this happened i'm like okay clearly i'm not going and i was like do you want me to call your mom like me you know his family's blowing him his family's very i love his family but they're very protect our own like you know and so i could tell they were very concerned about him and i kind of felt like a little bit do you know what i'm trying to say yeah they're always going to take their sons yeah like they're they're worried about him

and like almost by default you're worried whether you're the bad guy exactly i kind of was feeling like the bad guy so i was like i i just asked him i was like do you want me i would love to talk to your mom i would love i would love that do you want me to call her and he said no so i said okay you're like respecting his territory yeah like i really care about his mom. Everything y'all saw between her and I was like, so for real. Like she is amazing. Stuff like this, that's her son.

So what am I going to do? Yeah. Well, Raven, I thank you for being so vulnerable. I'm really sorry you had to go through this. No, it's good. Let's take a quick break from your story. And if you're down to hear someone else's relationship problems, and hopefully we can help them. You down for some texting office hours?

Hell yeah. Let's do it. How's it going? Hi, my name's Miranda and I'm 24. How can we help Miranda? So I am going on a couple's vacation with my best friend who is cheating on her boyfriend and I don't really know what to do about it. Okay, well, I have strong opinions.

Before we get into the details, I would love to know what you think you should do about it. Um, there's a few different options that I have and I'm kind of, I've been weighing them. Okay. Shoot. So, um, I found out about the cheating about three weeks ago and this trip has already been booked for a while. How did you find out about the cheating? So she drunkenly confessed it to me okay so we were like out at a bar and she was on her

phone and i saw a name i'm just gonna use a fake name i'm gonna say steve i kept seeing steve on her phone which is not the name of her boyfriend so i was like that's weird i remember as steve from back in the day when her and I were both single she used to talk to a guy named Steve so I was like hmm and then you know you kind of get the courage when you're drunk so we were in the bathroom and she was like come take a picture with me so I was taking a picture with her on snapchat and I could see it was going to Steve so I was like what are you doing talking to Like, that's the Steve that you used to. Their past was like they met at a festival.

They hooked up a few times. They talked for a while. He didn't want a relationship. That was it. And she was like, oh, it's nothing. It's nothing. Like, don't worry about it. And I was like, well, it doesn't really seem like nothing.

Like, that's pretty weird. And she was like, it's completely friendly. And I was like, okay. we were with other girls so I didn't really want to get into it so I just kind of like left it and then when we got home from the night out when we were like getting ready for bed I was like are we not going to talk about the Steve thing like can we talk about Steve because to me like even like snapchatting someone texting someone is still cheating, you know? Especially someone that you have, like, a past with.

And it's very obvious her boyfriend doesn't know. And when I said, can we talk about it, she just immediately started crying. So I was like, uh-oh. So it was more so, like, of how much have you done or, like, how far has this gone? It was kind of just established between us that we both knew what was going on. And at first she was like, it's literally just texting. Like, I'm just enjoying the attention. It's nothing.

And then just, I know her so well that I was like, I don't believe you. Like, just by the way she was saying it, I was like, you're lying to me. Like, don't lie to me. And then she eventually confessed. What she said was that they met up three times. And that on the last time they met up it progressed to like physical cheating so like kissing sex like everything so it went from like it's nothing to I've like fully met up with him and obviously we were like drunk so I was just like this is so much for me to handle right now I wasn't even thinking about the trip until like a few days

after that night out, she was like sending me bathing suits being like, what do you think of this one? And I was like, holy shit, I'm going on a trip with you and your boyfriend and my boyfriend. Did she acknowledge what she confessed to the next day? Does she remember? How drunk was she? Oh yeah, she remembers it. So we were in a different city. So we were like driving home together. And in the car, I was like, so what's going on? Like, are you wanting to leave your boyfriend for Steve? Like, is that is that what we have? Because her and her boyfriend live together and they have a dog together. So I'm like, this is very, very messy. Because if you break up, like you need to move out. She moved to a different city with him. So she lives in a different city. So I was like, if that's what you want to do, if you want to leave your relationship, I'll help you pack up your shit. But if that's not what you want to do, you need to stop talking to Steve.

It's one or the other. And she claimed that she doesn't want to break up with her boyfriend, which means she has no intention of leaving the relationship that she's in. So that's kind of where it left off. Gotcha. And so what do you think you should do? I don't know. So another like layer to this is that my boyfriend and her boyfriend, like we hang out a lot as couples and they've become very close friends, like to the point that like they even hang out without us. Does your boyfriend know? very close friends like to the point that like they even hang out without us uh does your boyfriend know no okay so you are currently not being honest with your boyfriend i didn't have

the heart to tell him everything that happened because i was like totally panicked like when i was driving home that day i was like holy shit like what do i do with all this knowledge so i told him i was i told him like a half truth. I said, I saw her talking to somebody on her phone. I saw her talking to another guy. I didn't tell him the depth of it because I wanted to see how he handled that first. Why? Because she told me and I just had a feeling that he would go and tell him. And I didn't know if I was ready to open that can of worms. So then why with the half-truth? Well, because she literally made me swear up and down that I wouldn't tell him. So then if I told him and then he went and told her boyfriend,

then she's going to freak out at me, even though obviously it's not my fault that she's doing that. But I literally swore up and down that I wouldn't say anything. I hear you. It puts me in a really tough position. What do you think being a good friend means to you? What does being a good friend mean to you? I mean, being honest, which I was honest with her.

Like, immediately I said to her, like, you need to pick one. You need to either leave your relationship be with Steve or stop talking to him right now I told her like I don't want to hear about your like whatever you're doing with him like I I don't want to be a part of it like I told her I was disapproving of it like that it was wrong but at the same time like I can't control what he does like what she does so like no like I was being honest and i was like because i'm not a very confrontational person i'm pretty much a people pleaser so it was already a lot for me to be like look i don't think this is okay i think you need to stop like immediately um but other

than that that's basically all that i've i haven't seen her since because she lives like an hour away from me but i'm seeing her on monday to watch Bachelor. So now I'm just like, I feel like we need to have a conversation when I see her next. And I don't really know like how I should approach that or what I even can or can't say. What do you mean? Like, do I have the right to say, I don't want to go on a trip with you if you don't stop talking to him? Like, is that within my... You have the right to say whatever you want. I mean, you know, how much do you care about doing the right thing versus avoiding conflict

and trying to make everyone happy? See, that's like my, always my dilemma is avoiding conflict and trying to make everyone happy. And then I get that. But what happens when it's... I do that a lot. What happens when it's versus doing the right thing? It's tough because I've been thinking about us

going on this trip and i'm like i don't even know how i'm going to be able to act normal around him because now i feel guilty by association like i mean i guess how much do you care about your person like right now your integrity is on the line yeah that's what i've been feeling so i mean so there's just so and i guess when i say how much what does it mean to be a good friend to you would you say holding your friends like do you believe your friend is a good person overall i do think she is a good person but i think she's been going through like a rough patch for the last little while and she's done a few things that are out of character this is not the only thing that she's done out of character in the last like year or so.

So do you think being a good friend is helping your friend going through a tough patch? Maybe there's some past trauma in her life. Maybe something happened. Who knows? Maybe she's acting out right now and she maybe who knows doesn't even fully grasp what she's doing, you know, on some level. So I guess I'm just back to asking what kind of friend do you want to be to your friend? Like, do you want to help her in the long run overall? You know, do you want to say, do you believe in her? Do you think she's better than this? I do. I've known her for a really long time. And my only thing that's been

planting a seed of doubt in my mind is that like a long time ago, like we were really young. She cheated on her like ex-boyfriend from forever, like five boyfriends ago. And it was like a super toxic relationship. So at the time I was like, whatever she had to do to get out of this relationship, I don't really care. Sure. We were also a lot younger. So now that it's happening again i'm like it kind of reaches the question of like is my friend a serial cheater as well because this is now her second time doing this but because we were like it was so many years ago the first time and i was so much younger i think i was literally like 17 years old i just

feel like it's different than. Either you believe in your friend that this is out of character for her and despite her choices that she's made throughout her life, that you believe that who you decided to be friends with is a good person with a conscience who has a desire to be a good person and bring happiness to people's life and do good by people and make high character choices when people aren't looking, et cetera, et cetera. Or you've been wrong about her, right? And if you have been wrong about her, do you want to maintain being friends with her? So I've been thinking about that as well, just because it's one of those friendships where when you've been friends for so long, it's kind of like those years mean a lot that

it seems like one mess up that they do doesn't seem worth it for me. Like, I feel like she adds a lot to my life that it's like, I think I, I don't want to say look past because I'm not looking past it because this happened like weeks ago and I'm still thinking about it like every day. So it's obviously like not just a small little whatever, but I do feel like. I would file that in the bucket of you think she's a good person who's doing bad things right now. Yeah. But I'm asking you if it turns out, if you have some sort of realization that she's just simply not the person you thought she was, that behind this lie, there are more lies. And she's just been better at lot. She's been better at lying to you in the past than she is in this moment. And maybe it's the alcohol at a coincidence of you looking at her shoulder. You caught her in this lie. And the more you look deeper, the more you uncover that she's just like not a high character person and i'm asking you just you know despite your history despite your friendship if that turns out to be true do you want to be friends with her i mean probably not okay that makes sense but i'm also like i'm pretty notorious for being kind of cold and cutting people off okay great like if someone makes one mistake or wrongs me one time i've been pretty notorious for just

being like i'm not associating with that person anymore. So I've been trying to be like more graceful and more forgiving, but it's like at what, like, where do you draw the line? Because sometimes I feel like I would maybe cut people off too easy. and you hold your friends accountable and you push them to do the right thing and you try to give them as many opportunities to do that even in the moment if they beg and say they'll never be friends with you etc etc you know like to me there's no to me the answer is simple what you should do what is your answer i would love to know you reach out to your friend or maybe you wait till Monday night, whatever. Time seems to be limited because of this trip. And you sit her down and you say, listen, I've been thinking a lot about what happened and you need to tell him. I think you're a good person. I love you. I think this is out of character for the person I got to know. I believe that there's a good person and we've all done bad things, but it's how we handle

these choices and you need to tell him. And I'll give you a few days, but if you don't, I will. And I love you and I'm here to support you. and as long as you're willing to try to do the right thing and maybe you need some therapy to address like these choices you're making but as long as you're willing to try to be a better person I will always be your friend and you can be mad at me and you can say whatever you want to me right now but I'm saying this to you because I believe in you and I think you're better than this. This is going to be hard. And I don't know what's going to happen with this trip. I don't know what's going to happen with your relationship with your boyfriend, but I'll be with you to

help you get through it one way or the other. But like, it's going to come out. This is not who you are. This is not, I'm hoping you don't want to live with this choice that you're making. who you are. This is not, I'm hoping you don't want to live with this choice that you're making. I hope that you want to believe that you have better integrity than this. And I'm here to be your friend. This is me being your friend because I love you. And this is painful to me. And I don't want to do this. And I'm uncomfortable right now. And I'm scared. And I can only imagine you are, but it's because I love you that I'm insisting that you tell him. And if you don't, I'm going to. So it's up to you, but there is nothing you can say to me to change my mind. So you need to do this before the trip. And then you need to tell your boyfriend and tell him that you haven't been fully honest with him.

Because I promise you, if he finds out later, every day that goes by that he knows that you didn't tell him, he's going to start questioning you. Birds of a feather. And it's hard because I tell him literally everything. Like I tell him, like we tell each other what we eat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And this is the only thing I've ever hid from him. And the only thing you ever hid from him was about your girlfriend cheating on her boyfriend. So if you want to destroy your trust with your boyfriend, keep doing what you're doing. I know.

It's a high stakes situation. I'm like. It's not, I mean, it's high stakes, but it's actually not that complicated or that simple. It's difficult. And don't be the person who tries to make excuses for the situation. Be like, it was really none of my business. And you know, I don't like, like, what do I do? I don't like, he would want to know, you would want to know your boyfriend would want to know she's playing him for

a fool. And if she really wants to be with him, like she needs to figure out her shit because she's gonna destroy she's destroying lives and this has a rip this this type of stuff has a ripple effect i don't know what relationship she has with his parents or vice versa the longer this goes on the worse it's gonna get and if she has any hope and reconciliation with her boyfriend the longer she lies them the worse it's gonna get and yeah and i i i think if you don't take my advice you're gonna regret it because you're torturing yourself like you're and it's not your fault but you're torturing yourself you got like thrown into this insane situation that is like

every people pleaser's nightmare where it's like there's no option where everybody's pleased in this like even if she does like the right thing and tells her boy like he is no option where everybody's pleased in this like even if she does like the right thing and tells her boy like he is going to be really upset and devastated and it's definitely like the best on a list of like imperfect options but like that is a horrific situation to be in and you're being so thoughtful about it but also like in terms of like your own self-preservation like you're lying you know kind of like nick said like you're lying by omission right now to your boyfriend and you're doing it for a really noble cause in the sense of like it should be a conversation that first and foremost like he should find out from her that she is cheating or sorry like your friend's boyfriend should find out

from her so like it makes total sense why you're doing it but it's also like it's putting you in jeopardy awesome i mean you're currently an accomplice. That's how I feel, which is why I know like it can't because I tried doing the like convincing myself like, oh, it's not really my business. And like it was eating me alive. I'm like, it's not like I can't. I'm not that kind of person. I'm not built like that. Like even if even if the other stuff hadn't been told, even the text on her phone was enough for like, to make my stomach turn.

Nevermind. Like it just got worse and worse. I was just like. Yeah. This is a defining moment in your life. I don't mean to oversell it, but you are going to look back and either you're going to handle it the right way or the wrong way. And if you handle it the wrong way, it's going to affect your life. It's going to get people to question you. It's going to get you to question yourself.

People will think differently of you. If they find out you tried to hide this, people will lose trust in you. You will doubt yourself and you might end up just becoming this person who makes it, you know, and gets good at making excuses for themselves. Or you can be a good friend. You can do the very difficult, but right thing. And you can support her with love and, and challenge her and, and say like, I'm doing this because I believe in you. Because if I, if I didn't believe in you, I just stopped talking to you because I don't, this isn't okay.

It's like, you know, and you don't need me to explain that it's not okay because you're lying and you lied to me and it's all it's affecting our relationship so like it has to stop i'm not gonna be party to this you're i'm not gonna continue to lie to my boyfriend this is not what i want so either either you need a wake-up call and you're willing to start making amends or you're not. But like, I hope you are because I love you and I want to be your friend. And as long as you're willing to try to do the right thing, I will support you and have your back. See, when you say it like that, it sounds like so seamless.

But I think it won't be easy. I've been like, because when I when she told me, like, you can't tell, like, don't tell anyone. Like, she told me specifically not to tell my boyfriend. And I was like, at the time, I was drunk and just, like, overwhelmed and confused. It doesn't really matter. You probably were in a state of shock. My boyfriend and her boyfriend are good friends. Like, we have this dynamic where the four of us hang out.

And she was basically saying, like, if you tell anyone, this is all going to be ruined. Yeah, but then you're lying to your boyfriend. Like, I'm like, that's a selfish thing for her to say. Because it's like, even with the mentality of, oh, this isn't really my business really my business or oh it's between the two of them like as nick was saying the ripple effect like every it's gonna no matter who's cheating on who or what the situation is it's always gonna involve more than just those two you have an even better excuse for being like um excuse me you're telling me i'm gonna ruin this dynamic actually no you're gonna ruin this dynamic already ruined because you're having me lie to my partner

so that's not fair to you and your boyfriend either the dynamic doesn't exist as you know you know and you know that you can't go on this trip and be normal you can pretend to try to be normal the relationship's fucked the vacation's fucked the relationship is clearly fucked but yeah vacation's done at this point maybe you and your boyfriend can go by yourselves and just enjoy each other and spend the entire vacation talking about how you don't want to be those people and maybe focus on reconnecting and working on trust and spend a lot of time sharing stories and maybe it's like omit some things and talk about feelings and try to really connect and and try to make some good out of this trip. But like your friend is fucking up her world and other people's worlds. And this is a

truly defining moment in your life to do the right thing. And it's not, it's not, it's black and white. It's, this is the only right thing to do. And everything else is just an excuse or an easy way out and something I assure you, you will regret. And people will judge your character based off of how you handle this. And wanting to be the right person and wanting to be a good person and being the right person and being a good person are two very different things. And I get that it's so challenging because this is your best friend. This is someone who you align with on so many levels. And most of the time you don't butt heads or disagree with her on things because you're right on the same alley. So this is extremely uncomfortable. But like something that I've been talking about a lot recently is like one of my roommates,

just like very brilliantly, was like, I think when people bring conflict to me directly, I look at it as such an act of love that they are willing to endure the discomfort in service of our relationship and like that's what you're doing here you're enduring a ton of discomfort like extreme discomfort in order to hopefully like help her reconnect with who she is and to like repair like my therapist says life is about the repairs like this is a huge fucking hole that needs to get repaired and i'm so sorry it's not even a hole it's like a crater it's like yeah yeah it's like a nuclear yeah and here's the thing and then it's just like the fallout of all of it after then like is she gonna not want to be friends with me because i i don't know but like that's that's her choice and her journey and

you'll have to figure it out but like kind of like i was asking before either she's a person who's had some you know trauma in her past that fucked her up a little bit and she's dealing with this trauma in a very toxic and destructive way. And maybe this kind of being called out and having a light shine on her choices and having people call her out and see her for who she really is might be a wake-up call that she needs. Or she will tell you to fuck off and make excuses, in which case you can now realize that maybe she's not the person I thought she was. Your friend will decide for herself whether this is who she wants to be or not. And hopefully she

has the means and the access to things like therapy and the support from her community like you to encourage her that there's always a chance to get get help and and she is young she's still young there is a chance for her to change and maybe be a better person but like if she doesn't her life's gonna suck if she doesn't fix these choices she will always be some version of this person who's willing to lie and be deceitful and destroys people's trust. And she'll have broken relationship after broken relationship. And her life is going to suck. And she's going to make other people's lives suck. I mean, this type of behavior destroys lives.

And I want to believe that people are capable of change. destroys lives. And I want to believe that people are capable of change, you know, and I, and I, I do believe that good people can do bad things, especially, you know, if, if trauma they experienced as a child or whatever, isn't properly dealt with and they push it down and they push it down and they, they, you know, react in, in very kind of toxic manner, but you're being a hero to your friend by doing the right thing. It's why it's called the right thing because it's fucking hard sometimes. And I don't know.

I know there's people, you're not being a friend by enabling her. You're not being a friend by shutting your mouth and keeping it quiet and keeping her secrets. You're not. And you're also going to resent her. Like you yourself, if you try to like shove the situation down, then like that's going to like fuck you up a little bit. And like you don't want you wouldn't want a friend to be like resenting you or putting you in an atrocious position where you had no choice but to have all these like negative feelings towards them because of it. So it's like it really is like service to everyone. But it's so fucking hard and i don't know your past your childhood or you know but

maybe you know maybe you've been giving different blessings in your friend you know maybe you are in a position to hold her to a higher standard because whatever for whatever reason maybe maybe maybe people weren't good to her early in her life and this is how this has happened but the only way to show her grace is to hold her accountable and then be willing to stand by her side as she's willing to work through some of these issues and stop hurting other people and herself and you're willing to be her friend in that time and that's being a friend you know because other people might say well i don't want to associate myself with her and fuck her and blah, blah, blah. I don't trust her. So that's not what you're willing to do. You're willing to, hey, I may not even trust you the same, but I'm here to be your friend. I will listen. I will be there for you. I will fucking take you there. Whatever the fuck. I will do whatever I have to do to help you get your life back. and so that you can respect yourself and so that you can like your choices and you don't have to keep living a lie and you know and on some level i'm sure your friend if she's not some sort of

dark sociopath she's probably suffering yeah i don't think she is a sociopath because when i was like confronting her well not like confronting her when she was like confessing everything to me she was like really really crying and i was like what what is making you cry so much and like why are you crying so much right now because i wasn't crying i wasn't even angry i was just listening and she was like he doesn't deserve this like i know he doesn't deserve this like i feel so guilty like she was saying so it's like she does feel yeah she knows it's wrong she's suffering right now and she probably doesn't know what to do and she's probably scared. And, you know, I don't know why she did what she did, but it happened. And maybe she was, you know, addressing some sort of fucked up incident.

Who knows? But again, you know, if you believe in your friend, if you believe in her character, if you think there's a person worth saving there, then you need to do the right thing. And you will feel so much better about yourself, however she handles it, by doing the right thing. And your boyfriend will respect you more. You will respect yourself. I mean, it's so night and day what you should do versus, and it's amazing how many people don't do the right thing

because it's easy to just make excuses and be like, well, it's not really, I didn't know what to say. It's not my fault. And be crippled by the guilt of a bad choice and so it's like she's never this choice is always going to be a bad choice and i think the best thing you could possibly do is like show her that she has more choices to make we can call up together and call right now absolutely first off she's working she's um i can't actually i can't say what kind of job she does because i don't know what if she hears this but she's kind of job where you cannot go on your phone she's very important so

but i want to do it in person but it's just so out of my comfort zone like this is going to be very like my hands are starting to sweat just like it's not going to be easy and i'm glad that you're at least willing to consider but doing the right thing often is really hard. And this, again, it's a defining moment in your life. trying to brush it off even though it wasn't working at all but i was trying to um but i i think you're right i think it doesn't help that it involves like basically the two people closest to me besides my family like my best friend and my boyfriend so it's not easy but he will be thankful and you are helping him and her by doing this and you're hurting everyone by keeping her secret including yourself i feel kind of silly but a little part of me wishes i never saw it but obviously that's not like authentic like i don't want to live in denial but just i get i get the feeling that i never saw

it it's a normal feeling i get it like this sucks that you have to do and you learn something about your friend that you didn't want to learn you know know, you don't want to, no one wants to wake up and realize that maybe their friend isn't the person they thought they knew. And if they are that they need a lot of help and it's going to be a long journey ahead, you know, I mean, on some level, your life has forever changed because of this revelation. You know, your best friend who you're very close with is either going to need a lot of support and help and it's going to be hard and she might say really mean things to you in the short run. Or you're going to realize that she's a monster and you can't associate yourself with her. But like, yeah, and I'm sorry that you're going through this.

It really fucking sucks. And trust me, I've been there. It's not fun. I feel like no I've been there. It's not fun. I feel like no one's been, anyone that I've only really talked to one person about it, which was my sister. And she's kind of like separated from everybody involved. She doesn't really know anybody that well. So I wanted like an unbiased opinion.

And she was like, if I were you, I would be angry that I was put in that situation. Like, I don't know why you're afraid to approach her. Like, I would be like, I'm fucking pissed that you put me in this situation. Everyone handles it differently. Which was like yeah i mean but you would certainly have the right to be mad but a lot of people have been through this and i i can tell you firsthand uh you what you should do well well i appreciate it i mean it's going to take a lot but i think i i don't really think i have a choice like i have to like i don't you have a choice you do i don't think that's a choice that i could live with i think there's only one

it's up for you to decide right but like i hope you decide to do the right thing because there is a right way choice and a wrong choice but there are choices and people make bad choices every day yeah i think if i chose the wrong choice i would only choose that choice for a little while and then it would end up coming out in a way worse way yeah so it's just like i because i also said to her like when i first figured it out like when she was confessing it all to me i was like it's only a matter of time till he finds out like it's not an if it's a when yeah it's in there i hope you realize that it only gets messier so i was like your your days are limited with this secret.

They live together. He could go through her iPad or her whatever and find. I'm just like, there's no way that he won't make it. On some level, she's probably being sloppier than she realizes. And maybe on some level, she wants to get caught. And again, I think these type of situations are really tricky. And I don't think everyone who cheats is some sort of sociopath but there are reasons why they do it and it's not a justification it's just an explanation and and it's only for the

you know again maybe she can get help but if she doesn't immediately jump into therapy and take it seriously then i would tread lightly with how how much you trust her and i've suggested that to her more than once because she's made a few other poor decisions not close to this but she's made a few other poor decisions and i'm like you should really consider going to therapy because i've gone to therapy on and off for like three years i like work in mental health like i'm very much yeah that's why i can't believe i'm coming on this podcast when I literally work in mental health. But I needed like a unbiased opinion. I go to therapy all the time, you know, like, so, um, it's tough.

Yeah. It's an, and I'm sorry you're going through this because, uh, I know it's, I know it's really, really hard. And maybe this is the rock bottom. She needs a hit to get therapy. It could be. Actually, it very well could it won't be it won't be keeping her lie i'll tell you that much that won't wake her up yeah she always says oh i'll look into it and then she like never does it's scary it's scary she probably i

mean most people who really need therapy are terrified of therapy because there's probably a lot of demons they've what they're used to do is just kind of put down and suppress and pretend they're not there. And that has become their norm. And so they become good liars because they're lying to themselves and they're trying to survive. And I'm sure it can be very scary,

but like when their worlds fall apart and they realize that they've hurt people and they've destroyed lives, then there's a chance that they might wake up and realize i don't want to be this person anymore and i if i were you i would hold a hard line again repeat my and i'd repeat that like you were there to be her friend but only if she's willing to do the right thing and that includes helping herself and figure out why she has this type of destructive behavior also you can't ever force someone to go to therapy.

But something I've done for a lot of friends is be like, send me your health insurance info. Like, I will find you some providers who are accepting new patients who take your health insurance because it can there could be all this friction of like, OK, I should go to therapy. But then it's not like as you know, it's so fucking easy to buy a pair of shoes on Instagram. But like, there's so many barriers to do the things that are like helpful. And so I think like another way that you could potentially help out is just by taking away another point of

friction even though you know of course she's the only one who can make that choice for herself you wake up every day and you tell her that you love her and like amanda said you're like how you know what do you need from me i'm here to help you know let's get a therapist whatever you know and just like it's not too late like there's more choices to be made and she can redeem herself i'm sorry you're going through this i know it's scary um if you need a pep talk let us know i might i will definitely update you because there's a lot that we have to sort through but one area that i'm confident about is i know my boyfriend and i when i explain it to him I know he'll understand and I know he won't hold it against me like I just I just know it I would still tell him once I tell

him this situation I'm still going to tell him but that's like the one area that I'm not that worried about um it just all depends it all depends what he learns I'm telling you when you get that seed of doubt planted in your head, and all of a sudden he starts worrying about... And again, you seem to be handling it the right way, and you're collecting your thoughts, and you can be like, I literally went on a podcast. So yeah,

I think you're fine, because clearly your conscious bothered you, and you've been sorting through it the past few days. But if he ever would have found out that you just kind of... Let's say a month goes by, and that you just kind of you know let's say a month goes by and you're just like you try to pretend it didn't happen and then he finds out and then he tells your boyfriend very different conversation you two are having yeah that's that was one of my worries or like i don't think i would have been able to do it but

it's like what if he finds out while we're on the trip or what if he finds out right before the trip it's just like there was all these things going through my mind it's like this needs to be resolved way before we even get there like i can't even let it get there because i just oh you have to do it by tomorrow by monday yeah i'm i'm gonna do it on monday just things go better with her in person like she doesn't have the option to hang up yeah because she's very avoidant so if i started to be like i'm not doing this right now but i feel like if it's in person just remember the if you don't i will the i will is very important ultimatum yeah i'm not an ultimatum girl but i think this is an exception and also in person you can hand her tissues you can rub her back if she's

like someone who would feel comfortable with that like you can also be there like to support her more and yeah we'll get through this i'm here by your side i love you this is fucked up you are so much better than this i'm doing this because i believe in you and i love you and i want you to figure your shit out because you're only hurting yourself and you're hurting other people we care about and this isn't okay and we'll fucking get through this but like you're going to do the right thing here and i'm going to as your friend make sure you do it so please just fucking tell them please don't make me do it but i 100 will yeah i like saying please don't make me do it but i will because that's like i don't want this

like you're giving me no choice and give her a few days give her a few days to think about it whatever and i you know like i don't know what your timeline like if you don't tell them in a week or something like a week maybe i don't know a few days whatever a week's too long don't give her too much time to like come up with some machiavellian like you know i mean honestly she just needs to sleep on it for one night because either way, you're going to tell them. So she needs 24 hours to build up the courage and accept the fact that her life's

about to drastically change. So, you know, two or three days or whatever. But other than that, you're just wasting everyone's time. I feel like this pit in my stomach will go away after this is done, though. For sure. You will 100% feel better. I don't know how it will go, but you will feel better.

Your conscience will be clean and hopefully your friend will be on a path to healing. And, you know, be proud of yourself that you're willing to be by her side because not everyone would be. Thank you for calling in.

I'm sorry you're going through this. It fucking sucks. Just, you don't have to air this if you don't want, but like, so I've been studying psychology for six years now and I'm almost done.

And I'm going to be a therapist when I'm done. Congrats. This sounds kind of silly, but I listen to your podcast and like pretend that your callers are my like potential clients. That's awesome. And I like listen to these situations and wonder like, what would I say if someone like came in and was saying this to me? And your responses are really good.

Obviously, like you have an amazing career. I'm sure you're not going to change careers but if you ever wanted to you should think about it because i've thought about it i i'm going back to school for therapy are you serious yeah oh my god that makes me so happy because honestly i don't know if you just read a lot no you read a lot or if you have a lot of experience i have experience as a client it's a bit instinctual but i've also lived some life and i've dealt with these situations and i've had to learn the hard way and i've processed these emotions and i've had therapy and a combination of all those things yeah i can tell that you're like well read or at least have a lot of experience as like a client in therapy because i can just tell by your responses i'm like i feel like school will be

a breeze for you because half of it you're already basically doing. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah. But something I've actually talked with my therapist about in the past couple months. Well, thank you for calling in. Thank you for saying that. Don't let me down. And don't don't let your teachers down. There's just no. I know. That's why I i'm like i can't believe i'm in this situation like i should it's hard it's hard it's so hard it's hard what you're talking when it's your own feelings instead of someone else's feeling exactly yeah it's you know these are real these are real life situations and emotions and and like i said they affect lives you know this isn't like just you know this is a big fucking deal I have to take advice and not give it for once.

So I guess I have to practice what I preach. You're going to be fine. You'll get through it. You'll feel better for it. And then we, we, we must have an update. I mean,

I'm sure it'll be, cause I'm going to have to sort out this trip and everything, but I'd say maybe, do you want me to update you after my conversation? I was actually going to say, we will, But I'd say maybe, do you want me to update you after my conversation? Oh, immediately. I was actually going to say. We'll be emailing you on Tuesday because you're going to do it on Monday. Or on Wednesday, if that's okay.

We can even set up a time ahead of time as an added accountability measure of you will have an update thing on Wednesday. I'm fully invested in this. I will not fully sleep until I have known that you have done the right thing. I literally i literally feel like i'm just personal for me you're the main character you are right now the main character i'm going through like the worst part of the movie it's fine what if what if i mean he's probably not but what if what if he's shopping for rings to propose her on this trip he's not i know he's not but I know that he is starting to look at homes and I literally said because they currently rent and I literally jokingly said to him but like dead serious you better not

put her name on that deed no literally said that to him don't ever put her name on so any moment he's experiencing or he's thinking about his future with her is is something that he's gonna have to process and get over. So the sooner he finds out, the less amount of those moments he'll have to deal with. Saving two lives, and I'm probably saving his wallet at least. Yeah. So.

Yeah. And who knows? Maybe your friend can get help. But I would insist on therapy. I will definitely be insisting on therapy, whether or not it's received it won't probably be received at first but you got to stay on it you know yeah we often like you know i'm as guilty as anyone you know so talk about therapy but until you're in therapy and we

often treat therapy is like reconstructive surgery when we should treat therapy like a bicycle helmet or a seat belt and unfortunately for your friend it's more like reconstructive surgery when we should treat therapy like a bicycle helmet or a seatbelt. And unfortunately for your friend, it's more like reconstructive surgery. But it'll only get worse for her and she'll only do more damage to herself and others until she does. So I hope you stay on it. Yeah. I think I'm going to do it. I'm going to have to work myself up. Probably talk to myself in the mirror, but I don't really have a choice.

You can do this. You guys are holding me accountable anyways. We'll talk to you on Wednesday about how it goes. I'm personally invested. Okay. Hopefully I'm feeling better on Wednesday. Well, it's going to get ugly for a while. It's okay.

It will. It's okay. Good luck. Talk soon. Thanks. while it's okay it will this it's okay all right good luck talk soon okay all right okay bye back to you raven is there anything while we were uh talking to our our lovely caller um that was so interesting maybe popped in your head of of any other information that you find that the audience might appreciate hearing. I really want people to take away from this, like the relatability of this story. And I know there's so many like crazy parts of it, you know, like we were on Love is Blind, right? But I think a lot of people go through similar things where they just don't listen to themselves.

And you have an idea of someone or a situation in your head and you really want it to work. Yeah. And it probably speaks more, you know, it speaks a little bit about you too. But, you know, I want people to see, like, i recognize i could have done things a lot differently yeah they're like a lot of my critics would say like oh you did it for plotties like whatever and part of me is like okay like i'm sorry i have a job that i love and i'm passionate about and like okay i did some jumping jacks in a pod like sue me well but also like if if there was if this was some sort of plan that you were a part of like where do you look good in this where do i

where do i look good in this i mean like this fundamentally changed my life like i have no other way to describe it like i will never date again the same way. I will, I've lived my life so differently now. Were there any red flags that you could talk about that you chose at the time to ignore that maybe for our listeners could, hey, if this was a red flag, I ignored it, but I should have known that. So there's some funny ones and there's some not so funny ones. I'll start with like some of the funny ones because they all kind of tie into themselves. But I think my first real red flag moment was in February. So this was we wrapped it July. We wrapped in July, August in July August September October November things start to

we start seeing each other December whatever February I go to San Francisco I think that was my first time going he had come to see me a few times so I go to San Francisco like we're serious but we're being realistic we We're not like official, official, official, right? We don't move in together until July. So this is in February. And he had gone to school. I was trying to take a shower. I was looking for a towel. And I open the cabinet under the sink and there's all this stuff shoved in there. And I see a towel and I open the cabinet under the sink and there's all this stuff shoved in there and I see a towel and I pull the towel out and it was like bunched up but I was like maybe it's clean you know guys are dirty um so I pull it out and there's makeup all over the towel and hair all over the towel

and I was like that's weird and so I put it back in there but I knew in my head we're not we're not officially dating so it's fine it's not cheating that was not my issue so eventually he comes back whatever and we're talking and I'm like hey you know we're talking about our relationship actually and um I'm like hey you know i do want to bring this up i did find this towel under the sink blah blah blah again long long long long pause and i knew in the pit of my stomach right there this isn't going to be good and he goes and gets the towel and he's like now mind you there's hair on the towel girls know how does it look when you wash your face with that towel disgusting it's not just tan it's mascara yes yeah there's lip

stuff involved it goes brown pink black duh we all know that right he's like this is a funny one because yeah i know he goes i did a turmeric face mask sir what first of all a turmeric face mask is that real he thought he had you with like specifics yeah and i'm like but sk first of all there's hair on it there's black stuff there's mascara like i'm a girl i know what that towel is for real and why did she put it under the sink because she didn't know what to do and she got makeup all over it no no no no no lies about it right and again it's not it was not cheating but what it was was lying that should have been my first and I felt it in my heart immediately when he took 20 minutes to answer me in front of my face. I should have known this is someone who will lie through his teeth to try to make you believe it based off of who he knows you think you're with.

And so I just believed it, you know? And of course I didn't believe it. Of course. But I wanted to believe it course I didn't believe it. Of course. But I, I wanted to believe it. I wanted to believe it. And that was the first sign of what colors is he seeing on now? Is that a turmeric face mask? It was, that's yellow.

It was tan. Not the picture. Just wondering what he thought but again people are gonna listen to this and be like girl you and you're right i should have but also this leads to and this is like the part that was also really hard for me um there were other several times. I mean, there was even one time quite recently within the past, like, four-ish, five-ish months where he accidentally sent me a girl's picture on Instagram. He's like, what a mediocre photo. You're so beautiful. Like, literally, you should try this makeup trend, babe. Yeah. Or like, oh, you should get this. She's not as hot as you. makeup trend babe yeah or like oh you should she's not as hot as you and and it's funny you say that because there was always this trend of and it's hard because I'm this is a part that I'm still

processing and it's probably the ego inside of me but there was always this trend of him being really hard on the way that I looked. And it got to the point in August, actually, that I was so upset. Like we had basically lived together the entire summer. We had had our apartment and anything I would wear, it was just always something. And just the way it made me feel. And then sending the picture of this it was always these girls that looked nothing like me the opposite on top of the fact oh you shouldn't wear that oh I don't like when you do your face like that oh and I was so sad and I even started to say to him like you know I feel like something's up. You don't really like me. You don't like the way that I look like something is off. I'm not getting the

same vibes. I've like, to be honest, I've dated a ton of men who've only dated me the way that I look. Sure. Well, I'm sure a lot of girls do that. And it was just always so negative. And I kept feeling that over and over and over and over and over and over. And then when all of these girls came out and more of the critics were like, Raven, he doesn't even like girls that look like you. He never liked you to begin with. And I'm like, little do y'all know that that was something that I kept bringing up because it just felt so, that that was something that I kept bringing up because it just felt so like I don't know he just really what I felt I knew that something was off yeah I'm sorry to go through that no I know because it's hindsight 2020 yeah it's easy to be hard on yourself and it's easy to say that but like

you know we we do have egos and we do like, we want the people we love to like treat us well. And like, I'm sure everyone in this room has, instead of listening to your gut or recognizing that you're with someone who's not making you feel good about yourself, you decided to use that as a way to challenge yourself and proved yourself that you were enough it's a painful lesson to learn it is a painful like i want people to take from that like and it goes much deeper you know like in the end he basically admitted it like said like yeah i'm not you're not my type i'm not attracted to you and i was like well good to know um but like you said like you don't have to do that you don't have to convince yourself like i was convincing myself that that doesn't matter uh i'm with someone he's so smart he's so intellectual he likes me for other reasons like and as someone who maybe like you said you've you've been someone who it's been the opposite where people, you almost felt like people were dating you for your looks. You know, we all remember Batista or Batiste or whatever.

Batiste. Whatever the fuck. Maybe we don't remember him. Barista. Barista. That's funny. It wasn't the whole internet not getting his name wrong. Someone, whoever we had on to recap it was saying that their mom

referred to him as barista yeah i think that was part of our episode which is probably what you're thinking anyway um and so i can only imagine maybe like in a weird way you were like oh like i'm someone likes me for different reasons yes blah. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. This is why he's a good guy because he's not worried about superficial. He's not, you know. And so it played into the whole story and the whole narrative in my head. This is why I'm with this. That kind of stuff isn't important to him. Little did I know that it actually is just not with me.

So, like I said, just not ignoring the feelings. Yeah, when it feels off. When it feels off, it's off and it's okay to bring that up, you know? And sometimes you're going to get lied to, like, it's fine. But if you're willing to be open and vulnerable and listen to yourself, like, there's no other way that I would want to go through my love journey. Just doing it a hundred percent, you know? Well,

I think that's a good spot to wrap up. Uh, Raven, I can't thank you enough for, for coming here and sharing your story and being vulnerable and sharing everything you have shared. And, uh,

it's not easy to do. And I know this hasn't been a fun experience for you but it sounds like uh you're better for it and it sounds like you're gonna um you know you've already learned from it sounds like you're maybe even a good spot with a new person and that's exciting we wish you nothing but the best whether it's with that person or just in general and uh i think i say it for a lot of people in this room and the people listening, we're all rooting for you. Oh my God, thank you.

And I think you're gonna be just fine. I will. I think you're gonna be crushing life. Thank you guys, I really appreciate it. Thanks for listening guys. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. Don't forget as always to send in those questions at asknickatthevilefiles.com.

I think that's it. Don't forget to check out Better Date Than Never every Thursday at 9 p.m. Eastern, 6 p.m. Pacific. We will see you there. We're not done yet. Get ready for one more excellent texting office hour. How's it going? Hi, my name is Isabella. I'm 25 years old and I'm wondering if I killed the momentum of a relationship with someone by setting too many boundaries up front

at once. Okay. Well, what was the boundary or boundaries that you set up with that person? So the boundaries included kind of taking a pause on the fast texting and like the intense FaceTimes and the times to hang out. Basically, I moved to a new city, was excited to be on the apps and the new place I'm in. Definitely notoriously a definitely piggy person when it comes to people and when it comes to bringing new people into my life. it comes to bringing new people into my life. So I definitely chased after the fun butterflies and the type of people that like, kind of like skip you down the street. And so with this person I met, it was one of those things that sounds crazy where it's like, oh, I feel like I've known you forever. So we started off FaceTiming and kind of that solidified my reasoning. I was like, I do want to meet you in person. It was going really well. And then it was just hit me one day after work where I was like, this just feels overwhelming

because it's coming from the wrong person. Like I would want all these things if it was coming from someone who like really kept me excited. So essentially I had a talk with him after our second date. It was literally a week we've been knowing him. So long story short, the conversation went great. Like I literally told him while we were lying in bed story short, the conversation went great. Like I literally told him while we were lying in bed that like, I feel like there's so much weight

lifted off of my shoulders and I just felt really good. And so for like the month or two to follow after that, maybe like a month, it was a lot of me initiating and me being like, oh, hey, like want to FaceTime or do you want to go out? And I met his friends and I would go over to his place. And like, it was a lot of going out and a great momentum, but it was basically being met where I was. I literally told this guy to his face, like, I don't want you to text me. Like, I don't want you to FaceTime me. Like, you're not it for me in certain ways. And so it's like, I can't really sit here and expect to have him text me. Essentially, I really wanted to like, and expect to have him text me.

Essentially, I really wanted to like check in with him after that week from Thanksgiving and just say, hey, like I feel like I came on really strong in the beginning of my boundaries and I'm still not sure what I'm looking for. This person was also really receptive again. Definitely like a really good experience. And so then just like weeks to follow were good. And then it just kind of felt quiet that was really

frustrating to me like I communicated with him when I rechecked in of like hey like can you please let me know when things change for you like the worst thing that I've done like been the situations of like trying to figure out like the change in energy um and why and not necessarily why as much but like okay like I don't mind making the first move but like if you don't want to be there like I don't want to be like making a fool of myself and so I just ultimately like to current day became disappointed with the person he ended up showing like he came off as this person who was really receptive to communication and like really in the same headspace as me and it felt great and i was like wow like this is the first experience like this and like this is what i want

to continue to look for um but super disappointing to like learn that like his communication styles like weren't exactly what he was showing and it wasn't like a year-long thing it was only like a two months like maybe a little more than two months didn't but um essentially like i i feel like i i tried to like i basically was like i'm still interested like around new year's and he didn't really like respond to that and kind of just noted that like hey like i'm busy i'm not i'm not sure what i want um he gave you the i'm not sure what he wants i'm not sure he was like i sent him a text on new year's day and i was like hey like happy new year and i was just trying to like be cute and i was like i hope you're coming into my 2023 um and he was just

like happy new year and like completely disregarded that message i sent him something else like unrelated a couple days later and then he was like respond to that and i'm like acknowledge like sorry like i know i've been distant like i'm busy with work which is such a frustrating excuse and i'm not 100 sure what i want oh it's like the kids and i was like busy with the kids of death and i was like that's fine like i'm not sure what i want like what what frustrated me the most is that i'm not looking for anything either right now but i'm i'm not it's like you don't want to date someone who doesn't want to date you like i don't want to spend time with someone who doesn't want to spend time with me. Like, I have other people in my life to fill those roles.

So it's frustrating. And I didn't, I don't find myself angry, but I definitely find myself like, just disappointed. If you thought you did anything wrong, what would it be? Just, you thought you were being too direct? Not too direct, but like, maybe just too strong where it's like you know but like at the same time it's it's almost more like i when i think about it it's more unattractive and i feel like the guys i've kind of been with have done this a lot where it's like they just like throw all their emotions at once and it's like frustrating to me because like i didn't go all at once and it

was a little bit for like a week it was and then I put a stop because like this is just too much. And like, you know, we're not in like second grade. And then like all of a sudden it's like then may stop the interest and it's like, well, then with time, like I become interested in it's like, then I feel like the dumb ones like, oh, how did I it's like, sure. Sometimes I feel like they make me feel dumb for having caught feelings. Like, oh, how did I? It's like, sometimes I feel like they make me feel dumb for having caught feelings. It's like, I feel like I caught feelings in the appropriate mature way, which was through time. Whereas like you were just obsessed with like the new shiny object.

I don't feel like you did anything wrong. I think it just didn't play out the way you hoped. Yeah. You know, and when that happens, then, you know, our egos kind of speak up and make us feel shitty and things like that i think all you did is protect yourself and set some boundaries and you slowed the pace down at a pace that you were comfortable with and and yeah like because the alternative like you said would be to and maybe you have done this in the past, which is, you know, kind

of buy into his enthusiasm and his excitement and his kind of, you know, wanting to text all day and then reading into his enthusiasm and his kind of his over communication as, you know, oh, he's obsessed with me or he loves me only for him to eventually pull away like he did i i don't i'm not getting a sense that he pulled away because you set some rigid boundaries early on and now he is you know mad at you or frustrated you i mean like i don't know if you're gonna like my answer but my answer is like he maybe just lost interest or maybe in the time in which you were hanging out because you weren't exclusive and you weren't boyfriend and girlfriend you were still probably he was probably almost certainly still in the apps and still swiping and still going on

dates and maybe just connected with someone that he was a little bit more interested in than you and you know and that's just dating and you're probably a little bit more upset than you would be otherwise because you know you're like motherfucker i thought i was in control this whole time you know i think that's what it comes down to part of it yeah so you did we just have to be careful not to question our our choices just because it doesn't necessarily worked out the way we hoped or we've or or more importantly just because it doesn't necessarily worked out the way we hoped or we've or or more importantly just because we lose a little power that we thought we had and let our egos kind of get activated and things like that but i don't know the way you're telling

the story it sounds like you had a pretty healthy approach to this particular guy there's this particular situation yeah and i guess like what i also feel like I've struggled with, it's like when there is like, I feel like the flip of a switch like happens really frequently, like especially like in this like dating agent, like I am in one of like the largest cities. So it's like there's a million options. So people just do lose like interest out of the blue. in like the fine line of like okay like i don't ever want to wonder what if like if you like i don't know like i just like specifically i think with him sometimes my mind goes to like well like again maybe he's still operating off of like the blueprint that i set like two over two months ago like i don't really want you to text me like i don't want you to reach out i'm like what if no yeah okay because you put yourself out there on new year's day, you know, the sweet flirty texts.

If he really felt rejected by your boundary only for you to give him the opportunity to continue to hang out with them, you know, as time goes on, you show a little bit more interest and a little bit more interest. And then you have this like flirty text and he'll put yourself in his shoes. It was the other way around. You really think that would have turned you off or do yourself in his shoes. If it was the other way around,

do you really think that would have turned you off? Or do you, I think it would have been the other way around. So I think, I think you just, I think you just lost interest for whatever reason. And we can sit there and debate what the reason is. It doesn't really matter. But yeah, I don't think you should doubt yourself. It sounds like you did a pretty good job.

I don't know. Raven, do you have any questions or anything you want to add? I was thinking the same thing, that probably in the time span of you being like, eh, you're not my person, you know, he was probably like, swipe, swipe, click, click, or let me set up a few more dates. Like, I would do the same thing.

And then there was probably someone else on the app that was like, my god i love you you know and it's way easier to it's just easier and so then when you changed not changed your mind but you know then it was like but but i wouldn't i wouldn't like again like question your decisions because you still made yourself available again And I really, even you saying, I mean, I don't know this guy and maybe he's healthier than I was or I am. But when some, you know,

usually when someone's like, you're not my person if I'm into them and they give me an opportunity to keep hanging out with them, my ego's a little bit like, well, let me show you that I could, you know what I'm saying? I rise, I want to, I'm just a challenge, you know?

And you certainly gave him the opportunity to prove you wrong by continuing to hang out with him you know it's i'm just you know ultimately just you know he just lost interest or you know i i just don't think you have anything to have a regret about you know okay no thank you and and that's the thing it's like maybe maybe i set these boundaries and i didn't ultimately hold them for myself because like i found myself being like oh like let's facetime and doing all that um and kind of like speeding it up on on my terms but yeah i mean the bottom line is like i i don't i think you're nitpicking i think you're being too hard on yourself you know yeah because ultimately your boundary was let's just slow down a little bit you know and yeah i think more i think what i think it'd be healthier for you to pat yourself

on the back by recognizing that this guy early on was coming on a little too strong and it was a little too inauthentic and it probably like triggered some things in the past of other guys in the same bullshit only to like and you were just like hey let's slow down man you know and maybe you just again like nitpicking but you could have just maybe instead of saying you're not my person and being too rigid but i really don't think that made i don't think i think that's the semantics because he kept hanging out with you he was you know he made efforts it's just over a couple months he just lost interest you know and decided like just not what he wanted and yeah probably probably met

someone else uh that he decided to put a little bit more energy in and yeah but i think if he really was liking what he was getting out of this thing he would have been totally down he just you know decided so you don't ever think it's worth to like try to figure out also like when there's a change in energy like why no probably not no yeah your ego wants to know but like what would be the difference like yeah yeah you i'm not hearing anything from you that you did something that would be like well if someone did that i wouldn't like them it sounds to me like maybe you just have different styles of not only dating but trust and i think that's something that i'm learning as i date more too it's there are certain people like it sounds like like i know

i am and it sounds like you and i might be similar where we don't just trust everyone automatically. You have to like build that and grow that. And then that happens as you get to know someone more and you're more attracted to them. There are other people that I've dated who it's just trust across the board until someone shows that they're not worthy of that trust. Or maybe they're like, well well that jumped the gun on that one moving on and I think maybe it was just a lack of compatibility between the two of you because you are the type of person where you're like nope gotta earn this trust gotta earn this trust seems like he was more willing to just kind of be like free with not only his trust but his love but then yeah if he gets a little hurt or bruised then he's gonna say well learn my lesson moving on to the next person so I just think it was kind of like ships passing in the night in a way. Yeah. It seems like almost like innocent until proven guilty is the approach that some people have. Yeah. And then he was like, Oh, you're telling me you're guilty. Okay. Yeah. Sounds good. Moving on. Yeah, no, that's really valid. No, thank you. I appreciate it. I mean, it's nice to hear that. Like I, I didn't blow up the situation. Like, I don't like part of

the thought, like, did I blow it up? And up and like you know can i blow things up just from literally wanting to be honest and like putting a stop to like immature like obsession like which is almost what it comes down to um from the beginning but i think if he liked you i think if he liked you enough yeah he wouldn't have flaked on you yeah yeah you know but any advice for going forward i mean that's like my biggest thing because i am dating him like don't don't you know don't don't doubt you my advice based off this call is don't doubt your choices just because things don't end the way you want like that just because he ended up you know not reciprocating your interest at the end doesn't mean that you did something wrong and you read that as like oh well i i fucked up because he changed his mind it's like maybe he just lost

interest a little bit or maybe the interest was never that strong between either of you and your disappointment in an ending has more to do with the fact that like you know he called it quits before you did it's always so easy anytime someone breaks up with you or ends things like anytime it's taken out of your control i automatically go to i was in love with them especially when you thought you had the power you hated him like just because he ended things doesn't mean it was love and most of this relationship sounds like you were at least you felt in control and when you lose that it fucks with you a little bit no that's straight on it's a hard pill to swallow but um it's for sure straight on but yeah if there's enough chemistry there

or interest somewhat like people find a way to you know you know when natalie and i started dating she definitely pursued me early on and she um i try to slow things down but like i definitely was guilty when she would i guess listen to my boundaries so to speak using your language and and you know I would be like a couple days later like what what you doing you know like I liked her you know I just was hesitant and I had my reservations you know what I'm saying but like the interest was there and we kept you know with her and I we just kept despite you know our age difference or the fact that we lived across the country and we kind of had all these reasons to like, especially we communicated

our hesitations and things like that. We always, we always kept finding our way back to each other and you guys didn't keep finding your way back to each other. And that just maybe means that it wasn't as it wasn't there and that's okay. But I wouldn't use that as a reason to doubt yourself. Because it sounds like to me, you approached this in a fairly healthy way and almost certainly protected yourself from greater disappointment. Because had you not set that boundary and just bought all the things he said and started talking to your girls, being like, oh my God, he's texting me every day and he's asking me all these questions and he's the definition of if he wanted to, he would and this is great.

And then he did the same thing he did on New Year's Eve. You would be distraught and upset and feel manipulated and lied to and maybe you'd be calling him a narcissist or a love, you know what I'm saying? And now you're just kind of slightly annoyed. I guess one last thing too. Like,

I mean, I don't, I have no, I don't plan on reaching out to him, but like if he was to reach out to me, like obviously parts of me, it's like, I was invested.

I was interested. Like, yeah, I would want to see you again, but I also feel like probably the best thing is to not like, I think that's just a conversation you need to have with yourself about why would i be saying yes would i be saying yes because he's giving me an opportunity to regain power in this situation or am i genuinely interested in him

and i don't have the answer i don't think there's a wrong answer i don't think it's wrong to hang out with him again and just feel it out because yeah maybe he did lose interest because he met someone else only to go on a couple dates with her and and be like she kind of sucks i kind of miss you know the girl i was hanging out with before so you know it all depends but if you're just like once you realize once the dust settles and you're just like i don't really miss him i don't really care i just was i'm kind of annoyed that he's the one who ended it before i did you know and so you just have to ask yourself what what's that answer and and go from there you just just try to be honest just try to take your ego out of it and try to be honest with yourself yeah yeah i guess i wish i wasn't still interested to like hang out with him again, but I feel

like with time that only will just like diminish, but like, I wish I could just easily like move on and move over someone. What's the thing? If you miss him, what's the, what's something you miss about him? I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's the, just like, I mean, I would have hated being wanted. I don't know. Maybe it's not a way you would want.

I don't know. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe let me come up with something. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, yeah. Yeah.

If you really missed him, you'd be like, well, I don't know. I just, I really loved that. We did like, I really miss that.

We would do X, Y, or Z, or I missed the way he made me feel like you were trying to come up with something when I asked that question. So. All right. That's my answer.

Yeah. Maybe. Well, thank you all right i i'm very great at the advice and i'm super excited to have finally been on the show so thanks again thanks for coming on i appreciate you uh checking out the book uh hopefully you found it helpful but yeah i think just keep doing what you're doing take your take your time and you know it sounds like you're doing good things maybe in the future next time you set a boundary just you know you don't have to say things like i know you're not my person you could just be like let's just slow down a little bit you know let's just you know as easy as that we don't need to text all day long to get to know each other you know we can

yeah we can spread it out you know yeah and just don't yeah all right agreed well thanks again all right we'll take care everyone you too