The Viall Files - E551 Bachelor/Vanderpump Recap with Cathy Kelley

Episode Date: March 7, 2023

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Bachelor Recap Edition! Today we are joined by journalist, host, model, and fan favorite, Cathy Kelley! We start out by covering the most recent Vanderpump Rules drama, including some inside information about Raquel and the show’s production. We then dive into this week’s episode and discuss Kaity’s second 1:1 date in Hungary, the group date with a mentalist, and both Greer and Brookyln being sent home. We then share our predictions for hometowns and the final rose, along with who might be the next Bachelorette.  “It’s not my job to get to know you, it’s your job to get to know me.”  If you are interested in running a book club in your city, send an email to: [e-mail]  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Rothys - For stylish and comfortable shoes, shop Rothy’s. Get $20 off your first purchase at https://www.rothys.com/VIALL Drizly - Drizly is the most convenient way to buy beer, wine and spirits, with delivery to your doorstep in under 60 minutes. Download the Drizly app or go to https://www.Drizly.com ZBiotics - Go to https://www.zbiotics.com/VIALL to get 15% off your first order when you use VIALL at checkout. ZBiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee so if you’re unsatisfied for any reason, they’ll refund your money, no questions asked.  Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @cathykelley @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog

Hey, we've got a secret. This podcast is supported by Apples Never Fall, a chilling new mystery series from the author of Big Little Lies, starring Annette Bening, Sam Neill, Jake Lacey, and Alison Brie. It's sure to get people talking. What dark secrets lurk in this family? Tune in on March 21st to find out. Apples Never Fall, exclusively on W Network and Stack TV. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The Vow Files Bachelor Recap Edition

and new Vanderpump Rules-like superfan. Super sucked in the drama. I'm Nick, your host, joined by Allie, Amanda, Derek, and our special guest today, the one, the only, very much friend of the show, Kathy Kelly. The dog whisperer. Oh, my God. Oh, wow.

If you've never watched on YouTube, let me tell you, you would see some puppy action. Some Kiki 13 dog action. Kiki was ready to party. She was face down, booty up. Face down, hands up. Yeah, ass up, kind of. I'm kind of proud. Is that weird?

I'm like, get it girl. That's not weird at all. I'm like Regina George's mom, like with the camera. That's me with Kiki. What a flex. Well, are you i'm great i mean dog in my lap like couldn't be better what a dog whisperer i know yeah the best part about us going out on our own with this new studio is the fact that kiki has been added to the show yeah in my opinion dog should be everywhere it's been great kiki's been just my dog to work sometimes just a real blessing of energy she greets me every day like i feel like it's a really good

note to start like when you meet especially meeting someone new who's like not like a regular like seeing them interact with a dog is such a nice way to be like oh like this is a very like tender side of you we might not have gotten to so early in meeting one another if not for the wonderful keeks what a dream what a dream did you not love on her yesterday or anything i've literally we've been together for a lot i mean no my dog's attention or two like oh no jeff was definitely not loved in another life enough yeah he jeff is starving here's my thing maybe that's that maybe that's every dog if you believe in um reincarnation reincarnation i maybe maybe people who weren't loved enough become dogs so that way i'm definitely gonna be a dog so my question is but what but not all dogs

get good owners all dogs go to heaven though like with her i got her when she was like around seven ish i think i don't know and she was marked as an owner surrender in Chicago. So my question is, if you know anyone in Chicago who had a dog, her full name was Shaqui. S-H-A-Q-U-E-E. You want to reintroduce her to her? No, I'm just like, I want to know what her story was. So if like if you had like a grandmother who had a dog named Shaquille, who was turned in,

please DM me. Cause it's my biggest mystery of my life. Yeah. Please don't flood our email addresses with false claims of, I owned your dog. Don't flood up our ass Nick email list. I just feel like someone's got to know of a dog named Shaquille. Yeah. Yeah.

If you're out there, please email, DM Allie. All right. Yeah. I started watching Vanderpump this season because of all the drama. And well, I wanted to do my homework for Lala. And well, it wasn't out when I had Katie on.

So I did my homework, but I didn't go back watching previous seasons, whatever. I'm sucked in. It's a great show. Have you ever watched? I watched like maybe a few episodes the first year that it was out. And I would go to like Sir back in the day. So like I would see them there not actually working. It's a wild show.

It's very easy to have an opinion. Yeah. And have you heard all the drama with Ariana and Tom? I've opened up TikTok. So yes, of course, I've heard all of the drama. It's just all over. It went from Celine and Hailey to Vanderpump in like a day and i feel like vanderpump it's such a iconic word that for the longest time i didn't even know what the show was because i

was just like vanderpump it sounds like some it's a last name institution yeah and then watching i was like oh my god it's about lisa in a restaurant and it like what a brilliant idea like everybody in a restaurant is always fucking there's always insane like every restaurant i've ever worked on has been like a romantic shit show for sure and i was like this is brilliant to see the manifestation of that over like decade over a decade they've never actually worked there though right like i think they have i think they used to okay i don't i'm not definitely not the historian yeah that i i should be maybe but i will be I'm determined to be. I'm actually going back and re-watching the earlier seasons.

I think, so this is maybe a good segue to remind you guys that Vile Files Plus drops this Friday. March 10th, maybe. March 10th. And we got some more details for you of all the wonderful things

that Vile Files Plus will include, which now I've decided will be vanderpump rules recap starting from season one if you want to go back and watch it with us it will be fun plus also commentary from the current season but after we uh tell you all about file files plus i do want to give some rapid fire thoughts about all the people on this season of vanderpump and the drama that's going down between is it sandoval sandoval yeah and now it's a sandoval and this motherfucker was performing friday night in his little silly band after the drama came out anyway all right a

little quick about viofellas plus because we have had some questions um about specifically cost what the subscriptions look like. So as we mentioned, we're going to have a bunch of bonus content. We're going to be putting new Ask Nick update episodes there,

bonus to a month of those, maybe some Vanderpump Rules recaps. We'll have all of Nick's interviews with the women he did from his season. We have rom-com recaps,

so Notebook, Crazy Stupid Love is on there. Such a good one. A bunch of extra content will continue expanding. But of right now if you want to join and be kind of a founder of vile files plus the first 500 people will have access to a founder's rate so that looks like either 499 a month or 4999 for the year there is a seven day trial so if you want to try it only the first 500 people

so like you have to and you get you get a week for free the founding fathers of our country everyone can be on mount rushmore everyone who signs up now it's it's a it's a free week trial so like everyone listening should go and sign up it's it's a you get a week for free yeah and if you're the first 500 you get to what is it the founders right you get to lock in you get the founders right for life for life it's like a cup of coffee and then after the founders even if you the first 500. You get to, what is it, the Founders, right? You get to lock in. You get the Founders, right? For life. For life. It's like a cup of coffee. And then after the Founders? Even if you don't get the first 500.

It's not too much more. It's a week for free. It's $6.99 a month after the Founders, right? Everyone gets to try for free. So if there's anything you've ever want to listen to, those old interviews I did

with all the women from my season and all the episodes of Better Days Than Never, if you can't listen to it live. And I know all of you Ask Nick listeners out there love the updates we're still going to do uh the updates once a month but you're only getting like

a few updates of all the ones that we do we do like i don't know uh what five calls a week or something like that so many more updates we do have an update that will be on vile files plus from the caller on the raven episode a lot of people have been asking. Whose friend was cheating on her boyfriend and that boyfriend was in the friend group and they're all taking a couples trip in a month. We have a juicy update for you. But anyways, we'll be doing a lot more updates

for Vile Files Plus. So you get a week for free. Check it out. First 500, get that founder's rate. Even after that $6.99 a month or $69.99 a year. And you can sign up right now, right? Yes. Just go to vilefiles.com and there will be a tab for Vile Files Plus. And then you sign up. You can do it with Apple Pay. It's super easy. You don't even have to pull out your credit card.

It's so easy. And you get to listen to Vile Files Plus in the Vile Files, the same place you... So if you listen on iTunes or Spotify, wherever you listen to the Vile Files now, you'll be able to stream vile files plus yeah it's the same place it literally integrates within whatever streaming platform you're listening to but yes if you want to go directly there not through the website it is vile files dot supporting cast c-a-s-t dot f-m like a radio and it's uh yeah and it will be audio only we might put some like behind the scenes videos and like the stuff we did with the studio that will be on there but not the episodes we sort of alluded to some recaps but

we're also going to be doing a pop culture roundup oh yeah at the end of every week all the things we don't get to because they only get to like two a week or two or three but there's so many we don't get to cover so like the hayley bieber and the cena gomez and that's the kind of stuff when you guys write in you're like wait we really want you to recap like this documentary or like can you cover though whatever drama is happening right now like this is the place where we'll now have the time and space to do that i don't know why i just we're not taking anything away from you guys i feel so sorry i just want everybody to know that it's like we're not taking anything away

we are so grateful this would be adding to your life. Thank you. We're just adding. This is just like, if you're like, I fucking love file files and I need more of it, then this is what that is. We are not taking anything away from you. We are so grateful for everyone who listens. What attachment disorder is this that we're talking about?

Definitely insecure attachment. Definitely insecure attachment. Lay on the couch. Speaking of insecure attachment, Raquel, wild, wild stuff. Oh my God. Hey, the weather is warming up. You're going to get outside and make sure your feet are comfortable and you look good. And we're talking about Rothy's.

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You don't want to carry that stuff. And then if your party runs out, you just go to the Drizzly app or drizzly.com, order the spirits that you need, wine, beer, spirits. They have it all. They have a huge selection and you can even like you know as we said before if you get invited to a party and you can't make it send them a drink a bottle of wine from drizzly it's awesome also because like so there's this very specific it's a semi-sparkling orange wine that i love but it's kind of niche and i never

know like which stores are going to have it which ones aren't and I really appreciate Drizzly because I can search right away add it to cart it is doing the work for me of being like yes this is the specific liquor store in LA where you can get this so like in addition to using it when you're in a pinch it's also just a great way to cut out an errand and to save yourself some time and I feel like you always want to get people exactly what they like because if you're giving a gift or if you're sending something to a party, you want to ensure that it's their favorite kind or it's specifically what they love, because that goes into like the intention and how special it is, too. Like I had a friend come over for a sleepover this weekend and I was like, I'm going to get her her favorite kind of gin. And let me also tack on a bottle of champagne for another girl's birthday. Like I got

everything I needed for multiple people in one order. Drizzly is the most convenient way to buy beer, wine and spirits with delivery to your doorstep. And under 16 order. Drizzly is the most convenient way to buy beer, wine, and spirits with delivery to your doorstep in under 16 minutes. Drizzly is the number one app for alcohol delivery. Download the Drizzly app or go to drizzly.com. That's D-R-I-Z-L-Y.com. Yeah, so my quick thoughts on the, not even everyone, but here are my thoughts. Let's just start with Raquel.

Obviously, well, I guess accused accused we don't really know i don't know has have things truly been confirmed the cheating page six confirmed that they've been talking inappropriately for months okay um and do we know what do we know what is like confirmed lala and james have been kind of vocal on social media about you know and basically they're such they're so team Ariana um and I think James has made some comments like we knew or whatever so like definitely Lala and James are like buckling down of we are not team Raquel and Sandy as you would call him like we are team Ariana all the way I've seen so many cast members allude to what's been going on over the past I heard something about a wedding that Sheena's wedding.

Do you hear anything about that? There was also something that said, I saw something that at one point Raquel spent the night at Ariana and Sandy's and apparently like at like three in the morning he was like coming out of Raquel's room and said he was like getting her water. Who witnessed this? I think Ariana. And also, okay, that

is even, in some ways that is more intimate than fucking. Getting someone's water is like they were perched in the dead of the night. It's a love language. That is love. That is not more intimate than fucking. Okay, I want to know because I know. It's like, please tell me you don't give them a water.

Not the water. Someone on TikTok commented that Ariana like got him via suspicious tactics as well. But I don't know the truth i literally don't know i barely know the people's names let alone the drama here's my read on raquel is that she's you know she's gone through something i don't know what trauma she's experienced or what what what uh attachment disorder she might have or whatever she's struggling with but she certainly seems to be someone who is in great need of validation and attention and my read on her is that she is

someone who desperately wants to be she has a hard time loving herself is my read on her is she a pick-me-girl i don't know that much but i think i can confidently say she has a hard time being happy with who she is and that she desperately wants to be someone that deep down she knows she can't be and i think when she runs into guys like the toms who are just kind of the your typical guy who's willing to kind of say what they know will make you feel validated and good about yourself in that moment usually to elicit some sort of, you know, something in return, is that in that moment, she is a sucker for that validation and she is scratching that itch from whatever thing that she's not tackling from a healthy way, maybe through therapy or whatever.

When she was talking to Katie and Ariana, and she, like, acknowledged that she offered the other Tom, that she, like, she wanted to kiss him. Yeah. And then, like, Katie was crying. She was just, like, she did that whole instance. acknowledged that she offered the other tom that she like she wanted to kiss him yeah and then like katie was crying she was just like did she do that whole instance here like oh she put her hand on her chest like i know this is so hard like she oh i just she just i like i want to empathize you know usually nowadays when we see someone do stuff like this you're like narcissist sociopath like i think she's just probably struggling with some something she hasn't figured out but like it is a destructive and she is putting her need for

validation over the considerations and feelings of of other people like katie and ariana i just hate that out of all of this out of the raquel and ariana drama and the selena and hayley drama it's so the narrative is so centered around two women fighting over a man as opposed to a man who's clearly cheated and and hurt women and whatever else and like why is our society so focused on like pitting these women against each other and whose side you're on versus the male counterpart that's actually done probably the worst thing you know what i think it is i think because i think that isn't common i think in a lot of cheating situations the guys uh get a free pass yeah i don't know if it's this like bro code or whatever it seems like i've i've seen a lot of situations where women will respond they'll respond more

than guys well they'll let guys off the hook they just won't say anything and then for whatever reason like the women also don't hold the guy like they focus on the way oh yeah men just do that men are cheaters or whatever which is such a bullshit excuse. Yeah. I don't know why. Yeah. But that happens a lot where it's all of a sudden you see. And if you're saying that he was validating her in a lot of ways, then he was really manipulative. Oh, I hate the Toms. The Toms are the worst. The little bit I know. Both the Toms, like last week when Lala was on, when I call them fun guys,

like they're the type of guys that like nothing comes before their need to have fun and attention like loyalty honesty friendship working hard like they're willing to do all these things as long as you don't kill the vibe like just don't kill the vibe man like again like being faithful like they'll be faithful as long as it doesn't interrupt their ability to like, you know, kill the vibe or whatever. You know, there was a scene on Vanderpump where Tom pulled Katie like at his club to like talk about the relationship. And then like, clearly he like triggered her by like bringing up the relationship in a scene. And he, he prompted the conversation and he's just like saying hi to everyone and not giving her any focus and attention, which probably just reminded her of their entire relationship. Yes.

And then he calls her selfish. He's that classic guy, that classic selfish person who constantly calls other people selfish because their expectation is that people always consider their needs first. And it struck me like in when like starting to watch Vanderpump and getting introduced to Raquel's character, like it struck me as like she is someone who really prioritizes harmony in any given like social situation. Like she wants like she will bite her tongue or like err on the side of like not really rocking the boat, so to speak, in any way. And it just makes so much sense to me that like the two Toms, like both cases, like they were dating someone who was like who challenged them and who like brought out like in ways that are like so positive and wonderful. Like I think Katie like knew her standards. She knew what she wanted and expected from someone.

And like when that was not met, like she actually addressed that circumstance. And it just makes so much sense to me that they would flock away from like, you know, and Tom Sandoval with like Ariana, like I just she doesn't seem like someone who takes bullshit. And like, if she feels disrespected, she's going to like mention that. And it just, it feels so like, it just seems like such a weak move to run away from like a partner who like actually engages with you as a partner and favor of someone who's like going to like,

yes, man, Lala was so right. Like the Toms are so soft. Like they were, they seem like the type of guys who were just raised very in a very kind of privileged, like Sandoval, you know how, you know how I know he's incredibly privileged. This motherfucker talked about how his family, like a stepdad and his mom, like loaned him

a quarter of a million dollars to help start a bar. And his other partners is like, yeah, I wish he gave him more shits about the bar. Cause he's out like having this like kind of silly band. And like, I don't like, listen, I don't want to fault anyone for like going for it. Like, Hey, I went for it. Like a lot of people thought it was crazy. What I'll, you know, I'm not faulting anyone for like believing yourself and like trying,

but like, it just seems like this band is all about his need. It reminds me of like, they're like in bachelor nation. There's always every season on from the bachelorette, a group of guys who like are addicted to the whole bar tour scene. They don't even care about the money. They're just showing up to these bars with a bunch of women who have watched The Bachelor, who are huge fans, and they just walk into a bar and just get a shit ton of attention every weekend. And they're just addicted to that high.

And it seems like this whole band that Tom Sandoval has is to scratch that itch it's not to like fulfill his dream meanwhile he's gifted a quarter of a million dollars like for his family to like take a risk on a on a restaurant slash bar that is a huge swing like that that industry has a fail rate that i think is fairly high when it comes to investing that type of money and he's just out just like, again, still having fun. Because you're not appreciative of when you're just given something. Yeah, that's how I know how soft and spoiled he is.

The National Restaurant Association estimates that there's a 20% success rate for all restaurants. So this is like, and that's also taking into account- And that's when your whole life is invested in this. You're working like 60 hour weeks. And you're not in a band. Yeah, like talk about pursuing your dreams.

Like, mate, this is it. Like you're getting the opportunity to open a bar. Like that is a huge deal. Like if you don't want to be doing that, like fine, don't do it. Especially when you have a business partner. And like we see the way that like obviously with Schwartz and Katie, like the way that it puts such a strain on all of your personal relationships to be going through that endeavor. I think it is so disrespectful to everybody else

who is impacted by you shooting your shot in this way to like not even take it seriously and like be willing to show up and do the work because like they were just so blah, blah, blah. Whenever like the Ken or like whoever it was, like both like Lisa Vanderpump's people and then like the guy they were working with on the show. And he was like, so what like was pressing them for details? Vanderpumps people and then like the guy they were working with on the show. And he was like, so what like was pressing them for details? I mean, I just think that cheating is never an isolated event of that is the most selfish thing that you can do to a partner. And that is going to bleed into other aspects of your life as well.

So whether that's friendships, whether that's business relationships, you're probably selfish and putting yourself before the other people in your life in a lot of aspects of your life. They're filming yeah breaking news i am neighbors with raquel we live on the same floor on the same floor yeah i would like to i would like to consider ourselves like kind of like the cool dog moms of the fourth floor but after all this i'm like no we can't be the cool dog moms of the fourth floor but i think we are the dog moms of the fourth floor like you have kiki she has her bitch it's tom well she does actually have a dog other than sandy but

yes so she lives on my floor and last night we're recording this on sunday so it was a saturday night i was leaving my apartment at like eight and i walked out in the hallway and there was definitely like two kind of producer like people in the hallway standing against the wall, like hushed tones talking. There was a guy and a woman. The woman had like a headset and a fanny pack and like a bunch of like earpiece stuff. So I was like, I immediately flagged as like, OK, they're filming. And so I don't know if they're filming like when the news broke. I don't know if he came over, but they were filming in my apartment.

You really have the in like you are breaking news. She's in the field. Ear to the ground. All you Vanderfoot fans out there, it seems like they're going to incorporate this into the season. So someone like my friend who's watching this season sent me, I guess there was like a scene of Raquel

getting ready and like leaving her apartment. And if you see her like in her bathroom and leave it, we have the exact same studio. Oh my God, same layout. Like the second we saw it, because you've mentioned you're like I think Raquel's my neighbor how do you

so did you peek into her place no but it's in the show of her getting ready it's the exact same layout as that oh okay that's also so interesting

because I feel like for other reality shows they use fake apartments or houses oh that's where we live that's where we live yeah should I invite Raquel

to my birthday party like if I do it on the roof with like the pool. After this episode, she might not be a fan of me. Just slide a little note in. I just think, you know, Raquel, if you're listening, like stop, deal with your shit, you know, because you're hurting other people by not addressing your own issues. And I would say the same to Tom. I hope this is a wake up call because clearly, and he issued a statement yesterday.

I love it. It was like through you know like obviously the notes I have apology and it started with hey God forbid it was like hey guys literally he started with hey but he lectured the fans

on how you know it's not the other time's fault and there's other people involved and how the restaurant and you know and it's like no shit think about the shit before you do it you know and that's the thing it's like the a lot of people on vanderpump and like watching vanderpump reminded me i think we're what society is today most people especially when it even comes to friendship and just interacting it's just like when shit happens to you it's the end of the fucking world it is just like you want everyone to be like oh my god

like i'm so sorry how are you surviving this shit and when you're wrong by someone you want that person to like just get on their hands and knees and just beg for forgiveness and like every day like wake up and say like please i'm the worst and then when you do someone wrong everyone's just like i said i was sorry yeah like i'm sorry can we just move on we just move on like i'm sorry like oh i'm sorry you feel that way yeah not an actual apology i don't know i feel like out of all the shows and this is why i haven't really watched it that is one of the shows that people that i feel like go on it very much want fame they're not in it for like in in other series it's like oh well potentially i

could find my wife here or whatever and this is a i'm going to be on television as in whatever capacity i can be and that's honestly while watching it because like again it's so ancestral like i honestly as someone who's gone on the bachelor and like knows like what's authentic and what's like you know a show i do watch this show more curious about like are they self-aware of what they're doing for the show or are they is it so ingrained into their life that they don't know what's like real and what's not it's just like well i if i'm gonna cheat on my girlfriend i i could like have anyone la or i could pick friend i i could like have anyone la or i could pick raquel her friend who's like on the show and you know like there's a lot of raquelles in la you know i think i'm just jaded of being in la

for so long that i'm like i wonder what's a pr stunt to like get more eyes on the season versus what's reality at this point i just but i can't imagine i just know how hard it is to be on the season versus what's reality at this point i just but i can't imagine i just know how hard it is to be on the wrong side of fucking up whether it's your fault or you're just on the wrong side of an edit and i just can't imagine like tom sandoval and raquel doing this for like the clout because it's not good i honestly hadn't heard of the show in like several seasons. So this is the first time where I'm like, oh, something's going on. So they did a good job if that's what it is.

I saw a tweet. I don't know. I should look into who actually tweeted it, but it sounded like someone who was potentially close to the situation or maybe even involved in production. And it was something along the lines of like, as someone who's been in the trenches of Valley Village

this past weekend, obviously like emphasizing like filming, like filming this past weekend, apparently Tom Sandoval had a call with someone on his team and said something along the lines of salvage what you can. So like, I think he's like panicked. He's in a PR. Yeah. He's trying to figure out based on his image what he does.

Oh no. The consequences of your actions coming for you. Because he seems like that guy who's just used to talking his way out of everything. Who's rich and decent looking enough that for most of his life, all he has to do is open his mouth and blah, blah, and charm. And then there's never consequences for his actions. It seems like the people who are less sorry for what they do get the biggest pass. Because they're just like, it's not a big deal.

It's like whatever. And then the people who are like, I fucked up. I'm really sorry. People are like, yeah, you did. You know, like you need to fucking pay, you know? And like, again, it's usually a lot of guys who like have this kind of like, hey, man, I'm sorry. Just like get over it.

And then again, like, oh, my God, Raquel, you had this happen to you. It's like, what the? Oh, oh, my God. Anyway, so Anyway, there's so much more to talk about and I promise you it will be on Vile Files Plus. So you just go sign up right now and get ready for a very exciting Friday. booked for this morning. And I had a great peace of mind going into it knowing I was going to have a night out before with my friends, but I wouldn't have a rough morning because I had some Z-Biotics. Before I opened any champagne, I had my little bottle of Z-Biotics and I, you know, drank responsibly throughout the night. And it was great waking up in the morning going to 9 a.m. Pilates. Z-Biotics pre-alcohol probiotic is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. So Z-Biotics is brilliant. It was invented by PhD scientists who wanted to tackle rough mornings after drinking. They didn't

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Stream every episode of Traders now only on Peacock. All right, it's time for The Bachelor. 50, I don't know how many minutes into this episode. Kathy, as a Bachelor expert and friend of of show bring us up to speed and where you're at thoughts of Zach the women are you enjoying this season I once again like Zach so I'm I wanted to like Zach I'm so done with Zach the man has not an empathetic bone in his body yeah and every time one of the women say something that where they offer some vulnerability or just being like hey i have add zach gets like a head migraine and you can see

go back and watch when fucking gabby tells him she has adhd yeah he has like a like like he bit into a lemon for a split second like if you screenshot it it's insane like you can tell he's just like fuck you're not perfect it's just insane i'm actually i'm sorry i asked you a question i'm a mentalist and so i wrote all of that down um every word that you said verbatim if you do you want to read um so yeah i this makes me this entire season makes me not want to watch the bachelor anymore which is really a bummer because i've been watching for years you know like that's really you're off of it honestly it's so boring like it makes me want a Sinead or someone like to come back just to spice it up a little bit and I think like I care about the girls more than I care about him in any capacity

um and it's just tough. Like, I don't this isn't a knock on him necessarily. It might sound like that, but I don't want to watch another generic white guy who hasn't struggled with things find love. Someone who's 26 years old, who lives in Austin, who could walk out on the street and find a wife to I don't need to watch a season of that. And and we've talked about this in the past. Like there are so many people from this franchise that I think have such emotional intelligence that like I want to watch because I feel like they're so good at dating and I pick up on their model behavior and whatever else. But I want to see them find love. I want to see the michelles and the gabby's

and the you know like those type of people who've struggled to find love find love i think they're casting 25 to 76 year old bachelors is i'm not a fan but they are i don't know but i i will say i'm enjoying the season are you yeah okay I am enjoying the relationships it's different like I do miss the drama and the craziness but like I am enjoying the drama like as a relationship podcast like we get I think we're

getting in more of the nitty gritty of like again last week spirited debate between Kat and Brooklyn but like I am and like as much as like I'm disappointed because I really wanted to like Zach it's still fun to like critique I mean you know it's it's fun to talk about I I think this this season has been it's been fun to recap I guess that's the the point of view I come from that it's it's been fun to I've enjoyed recapping it and I think yeah I

do appreciate how much they've been investing in love stories because like I am genuinely invested in both Katie and Gabby as individuals and like also like really root for Ariel. But like in terms of people who I'm like, oh my God, I see both of you as like extreme front runners. It's insane to imagine him breaking up with either of you. Like I do appreciate the way that it's been more of like a slow burn of like, let's really like build these relationships.

So that way the drama is coming from like the premise of the show that like you can't marry more than one person as opposed to like some of those more like short-lived like three episode arcs of like someone being really inconsiderate and loud and i think too like building off of that it is scratching an itch or quenching a thirst that a lot of people had coming off of gabby and rachel's season because everyone a thirst that a lot of people had coming off of Gabby and Rachel's season because everyone's complaint and a lot of what I saw online and a lot of what we talked about on the show is with two bachelorettes everything was really rushed we didn't see the connections like we didn't know who any of these guys were and then they were like just basically

given the final rose because they were the last one standing and this I think is bringing us back to will it be Katie will it be be gabby ariel's a dark horse it's just i haven't enjoyed any of their bachelor choices in several seasons and i wish they have such a like pool of people that they could have chosen from i almost wish that they just did another bachelorette season you know like catch up yeah i yeah i yeah preaching the choir um but here we are anyway the episode starts with Budapest

we're in Budapest my sister lived in Budapest for a year I heard great things and I would have loved to go there and they remind us of how beautiful

Budapest is Jesse and and Zach have another useless conversation coffee chat and where he lets

Zach know that unfortunately for Zach Greer is feeling better. And I love how they had to clearly edit in Zach saying he's really excited to see her. It cuts. It's really fast. But if you pay attention, like, it's a shot of Jesse and Zach.

And then it's like a B-roll shot for, like, just enough time for them to slip in Zach saying, God knows when he said it. I'm really excited to see her. I'm really excited to see her. I'm really excited to see her so I can finally break up because I feel like it's not fair to keep her hanging. Yeah, he could have been talking about his mom. I mean, you don't even know.

It was clearly like... His dog. Yeah, I mean, literally. I would give more emotion towards missing my dog than he gave towards missing Greer. Oh, yeah. Oh, he was just like, oh God.

And I get it. it's as as the lead very difficult he's emotionally exhausted it is like you're just like like when he sent Greer home it was the most I mean I gotta say he seemed so excited to see him again legitimately I don't know I mean I thought the goodbye was a pretty solid performance by both of them for two people who knew there wasn't a connection between the two i mean i think zach actually gave a better performance because zach really didn't give a shit greer was at least sad about going home you know like sad to say goodbye to the girls sad to like leave budapest sad not to to be a part of hometowns,

to get as close as she got, but no, deep down, she had no chance. I'm sure she's sad about that. But the way these two cried in each other's arms, if Zach was actually honest, if actually, if every lead was honest, was saying goodbye to basically everyone other than like the final three it would be something like is that you know and zach saying things like you know just he he does that thing and it's it's a can line i mean a lot of leads have said this before but it's some version of like you know something just changed and i just i lost faith in us and i don't know what it was but it's not you even though like basically I'm telling you that like it's kind of you.

Like Zach does it a lot. It's like, it's not you, but it's definitely your fault because like he makes every one of these women feel like it's their responsibility to get to know him. That said, it's like if every lead was honest, they would say like, listen, it's your time. I liked you fifth best the whole time for a couple of weeks, you know, I wasn't sure, I liked you fifth best the whole time for a couple of weeks.

You know, I wasn't sure, but honestly, you never had a shot and you made it pretty far, but it's time to go. Like this is where you go home. That's the real conversation for like everyone who's not in the top four. It's like you equated me finding my wife

on a reality show to you meeting your end of year goals. And that just really hurt me and i would have sent you home then but your dumb ass got covid yeah it's honestly my my question is just logistically because i know there's a lot of editing one it seemed like zach got covid and he was ready to go in like 48 hours greer got covid we didn't see her for seven years she didn't get covid it seems she said she tested negative or is that after? No, she tested negative after six days. I misunderstood. I thought

maybe she got a cold. She was missing forever. I do think that they filmed his stuff afterwards because they couldn't film. They weren't ever going to film her when she had COVID afterwards. They couldn't film him during that week. They couldn't enter his hotel room. It's also entirely

possible that he tested negative much faster than Greer did. It's true. But how did they get her to Budapest? By the time we're in Budapest, she's still in quarantine. Did we fly her in quarantine? I don't think it was that far. Estonia to Budapest? No, I know, but if you're supposed to be in quarantine, not seeing people, how did she

get to Budapest? Well, when she was out of quarantine, she got on a plane. So they left her in the other country. The quarantine time, I think, is like six days. They didn't just leave her by herself, but they definitely. Or they stayed in England until Zach was better. And that was probably the same timeline for her getting better. It wasn't that he tested positive and like six days later, she tested positive. It was probably like within timeline for her getting better. It wasn't that he tested positive

and like six days later, she tested positive. It was probably like within a day or two. It's like when they start traveling on the show, it's like you have a team that goes ahead, sets everything up, like the art department. They're a week or two ahead than the show. Then the show shows up and then like they leave and then people behind kind of clean up after them.

So there's not like everyone's in one place the whole time. So there's a little behind the scenes for you. I do think if Greer hadn't gotten the first impression, Rose, she would have gotten the Logan like, yep, goodbye, you don't even get to see it treatment. Not a bad performance, I think by both of them for two people who truly didn't give a shit about one another.

Like at no point did I believe either of them was actually sad about saying goodbye to the other person. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like they might have been sad for a variety of reasons but no one was like Greer and Zach didn't wake up the next day be like I thought there was a time when she liked him like when she was doing that zoom date before he kind of cut her off. I thought she liked him and that was a oh You're invalidating my feelings. I'm gonna you know, but she I don't know I mean she got the first impression rose, but like she is up there for like all-time like, you know flop for a first impression Rose flop. She's top three. I liked her. I like

Jess like there are a lot of people I like to keep getting cut. I thought they had a lot of entertaining women in this season. I thought a lot of people who like, you know, they sent, they have a great group of women now. And there are a lot of people who went home that I was like, man, too soon. Yeah. Right. And we could have seen more. Jess, did you see Jess's TikTok after last week's episode?

That was good. Yeah. She's funny. She had like, she used the TikTok noise where it's like, I would have never done this to you and like put on her sunglasses and sip champagne and peaced out. And I was like, she's doing well. What do we think of the, I totally get it. Which part?

She said, I totally get it when he talked to her. Yeah, with black mascara tears soaking her face. That's why I think Zach's performance is better than hers because i think she truly was sad but i think it was just coming from a much different place other than being sad about not being able to fall in love with zach i think like after the zoom date she legitimately felt like she was in the wrong for equating his journey to find love to her getting covet and meet it like not meeting end of year goals and so she felt legitimately bad and she's like oh i did something wrong i get it and now hopefully

now that she's out of the stockholm syndrome of it all like she can be aware that like he reacted very poorly to that oh he was and i i think part of the thing with zach is like he has some redeeming qualities like there are some ways where i really respect the way he's conducted himself. There are certain elements of his personality that I appreciate and like. And I think that's tricky because it means that those like genuinely good things really legitimize him in the moments when he does fall short. Like it's very, I imagine it must have been so easy for the women. Do you want to know what it is?

He said in the first episode, I want what my parents had. They've been together for 30 something years they never fought he never saw how to have conflict yeah that's what i'm saying to your point kathy he's just you know congratulations he's probably had a really solid privileged life that's been kind of pretty like easy going yeah probably i don't really know do we know much about his his past but like i don't know i don't remember it from rachel's season but like i remember jesse doing the whole thing of like did you know he was a dj in college did he have heartbreak you know that he was in a band in high school like what's his past relationship i don't

do we i don't remember if he talked about it i don't fucking remember if he did but yeah he comes across as someone who you're to your point like he has this great expectation like he reminds of me when i was probably that age maybe a little younger but yeah when i was that age i had a very kind of delusion sense of like love and what it takes to be in love is that it's confident and how messy it can look and and yeah that's I'm saying. Every time one of these women like offer some vulnerability of like, hey, this happened to me like is when I went with Katie. His fucking the reason why Katie cried is because like here is this, you know, seemingly wonderful woman opening up to Zach talking about, hey, if you meet my parents, you're

not going to meet my dad. And my dad like left me as a young as a kid. And then I had another stepdad who also left me yeah and i probably have a lot of abandonment issues as as many of us do right and like and i probably in like and maybe just kind of projecting that she's like there's a could be a sense of like you know not feeling worthy or like fear of abandonment or things like that and zach literally didn't know what to say. He literally said to her, that sounds fucking harsh.

Like it was more like this kind of like, yeah, glad that didn't happen to me kind of energy. And he literally says nothing. He didn't say anything like, he could have said, oh man, that must be so hard. But I just want you to know like every moment that I've gotten to spend with you, you have brightened my day

and I see how people respond to you and i see how much better people are for having like been in your presence and i just you know and how brave it is despite having that history to still be here trying to find love to see the best in people even verbalizing like i can't relate to that but please help me understand what you yeah and like does that make you feel? Nothing. He's just like, yeah, that sucks. Does anyone else also get the energy? He stares at her. And I think he does this with other women, too. It's not just Katie. But he looks at her almost like a discerning father figure.

He just always looks like he's going to yawn. Like he's holding in a yawn. When Katie was very vulnerably opening up, he didn't look sad for her empathetic he looked concerned for himself like fuck in that moment i was like that he's not he's not ending up with katie that's the that's the two people two different types of people that they hear abandonment issues or like daddy issues and they're like uh versus like those type of issues and you're like oh that person like i hope that they've like you know gotten to work on themselves or like they've been through a lot and like how are you addressing that yeah he could have had valid concerns for her where it's just like hey yeah

i get it zach's the bachelor the only person if anyone's expecting you to get engaged it's zach it's a lot of pressure to have on the lead so like ask those discerning questions but like don't just like immediately be like yeah nope you're off the list and just look so bummed that like one another woman that you really liked like showed some like like this it seems like the same thing happened with cat was like listen she loves hard whatever i you know hate to be a little bit right that you know she kind of like self-sabotage herself but like yeah like as soon as she started showing some cracks of worried he's just like yeah you're not my person

like i mean going back to jess last week of her expressing that she wanted a one-on-one and people being vulnerable he's like it's not that big a deal because i just brush over anything that anyone says anyways like and it's hard because like i want to be able to give him benefit of the doubt like I want to be able to say that like there's a certain kind of authenticity that it's I imagine can be really hard to convey over cameras or that there are certain ways of like when you are present with someone they can be there and like support you and you can feel incredibly like like they have a genuine investment in you and it might not manifest in these things that are like super like visible to viewers after the fact but like in the room you feel the presence and so like

i want to be able to give zach benefit of the doubt but then he has moments like the jess and the greer and the dismissive stuff and then it's like you're making it hard for me man the benefit of the doubt for zach is that he's a 25 year old guy or person in a world where nowadays like a lot of 25 year olds like are not don't have the same like life experience and maturity and haven't been through as much and he's given the role as the bachelor and it's like every week you see zach become less zach and more um the bachelor him and katie's like nighttime portion of the day katie's like all right zach what do you got for me what questions do you have to meet? Like Katie saying, what do you want to know about me? And then Zach immediately goes, well, what questions do you have for me? It's like,

Zach's literally saying, it's not my job to get to know you. It's your job to get to know me. That's the energy he gives off with his attitude and his questions. Like, and I'm not trying to pile on the guy. Unfortunately, I think Zach is more representative of most 25 year old men out there or people because i just think we're living in a very kind of me culture and a very much like i'm the center of attention and when you become the bachelor you are literally the lead so there's a sense of like it's all about me and it just it comes through more and more and it's just like i don't even think it's on him i think that's most early 20 year old yeah that's yeah that's what i'm saying and cast a 35 year old has a real heartbreak or you know five to ten percent of that collective that has been through stuff so they are emotionally

more mature but again like i wish that the bachelor would just cast people that are 27 and up and not make it a big deal that like the oldest bachelorette was like 37 like that should be the norm and i think sometimes it's hard too because it's i don't know because i i we do know younger people who get married and are very happy and so it's like maybe i'm just in a different boat but even looking at jess who is lovely and like i would love to be her friend and like go get brunch with her i'm like you're telling me at 23 like you are ready this is it like you are not only ready to get married you're getting ready to be married in a matter of months because you've had enough experience that you know that this is going to be different I'm fine I'm 25 and I wouldn't have that experience I'm fine

with having a variety it's just that like it's it's become more consistent that the leads are in their mid-20s. And with him being 25, 26, because of society, they have to cast mostly women that are younger. And I think men do mature far slower than women. So when you have a bachelor who's 25, I think it's a far different experience than when your bachelorette's 25. I think you get a much more mature bachelorette at 25 on average not it's not always the case there's exceptions to every rule and and i think the more we see zach be the bachelor while he seems very nice and very respectful and well intentioned you know i think zach is very well intentioned like yeah i think he wants to be a

good guy but you see the the lack of if nothing else, like emotional experience. And like adversity. And it goes back to that thing of like how he like, I'm so happy that he had this wonderful marriage and love story modeled for him. Like, that's so wonderful. And then also like, he seems like a really nice, humble guy. And he has this kind of like softness that I think you're able to have when you move through the world and you're like a very good looking six foot five dude who's like kind to people.

And so, well, a lot of that, it's like, I love that for you. Like, I love that your life has been like, hopefully like softer, easier, simpler in those certain ways. But like, again, with the age thing, like you haven't been through the fucking, like you haven't been in the trenches. It's giving Clayton energy of like, like golden retriever dog like just very nice wants to do well but it needs to be taught similar but like clayton was more like yeah

literally golden retriever where like i think what sometimes once in a while annoys me about zach is he's just he comes across as so judgy to all these women. He's just so disappointed in them. And it's just so like, ugh. What I see it as is more of his own insecurities of not believing that he should be in that position. So that's how it comes off as opposed to him actually being judgy. But this is all pure speculation. I want him to be vulnerable. I think that's maybe what it is, is that I haven't seen him...

I've definitely seen him experience emotions, but I want him to be genuinely vulnerable. Talk about insecurity. Talk about something that is more than just... When he didn't feel enough or something. Yes. When he really... Was there a rock bottom?

What's your most rock bottom moment? But yeah, he very much comes across as like, it's been pretty good. And he grew up in Southern California and he has a six figure job. And, you know, his uncle's like famous and it's been kind of a fun ride. And he's six, four and he's like pretty good looking. And he hasn't really had a serious relationship because I don't know why, but he hasn't really felt loss or heartbreak or disappointment and like life's been pretty kind of fucking chill well and I think that translates into our struggles

of the the lack of follow-up questions and all of that stuff like I just think like if you were on a timetable like that you want to get to know every single thing like you'd want to dive deep it's like we're about to be proposing but it just feels like it's like great this is the beat of the show you've told me your sob story great bizu bizu here's your rose let us go listen to this folk singer now who is who was it that he was having the conversation with where he's like we know a lot of the big things about each other but we don't know the small things like what's your favorite color what's your favorite color purple small because the small things are huge is that every episode has a one line deal breaker that makes no sense

like every episode without fail he says something that like i think he makes he thinks it sounds profound but it like and this week it was magic doesn't help you find love but it does offer you like clarity and answers and i'm like no zach those are called questions which you don't fucking ask like magic doesn't make that happen you just have to fucking ask them questions and they'll give you clarity and he's just like no no it's fucking magic i wish the mentalist wrote down the name of who he was gonna end up with and be like this is your front runner yeah oh my god my God. Yeah. Let's should we get it? Do we want to get into the group date right now?

Oh my God. Chaos. That mentalist was like I did guess the word heartbreak. I just want to say that wasn't that wasn't like they just found at the it just felt like they found like a Budapest version of Jesse Palmer because at the end

of the date he's like and now we'll proceed to the cocktail party and i was like we just decided to like have him run with this whole hosting gig he's doing a great job bring him back for a paradise episode yeah it was fine but it was like imagine being like a mentalist where like i feel like you're doing birthday parties you're doing maybe a few like events, but like imagine the experience of being like a Hungarian mentalist. I want to see the Hungarian mentalist find love. Like, can you imagine going on a date with a mentalist? Like maybe he doesn't ask questions either because he already knows the answers. Maybe Zach was asking your mentalist so he doesn't ask questions.

Do you want someone who knows your every want and desire apply today oh my god bachelor magician yes so exciting i just feel so understood by him every day it would be like i knew you're gonna say that he just keeps those boards he keeps flipping them like we finish each other's sandwiches that's what i was gonna say it was a great idea for a date what an easy way to kind of rattle everyone up. Yeah. All the girls were crying. I've become like, yeah, I'm very glad Ariel made hometowns.

When as soon as Ariel did an impression of her father, I was like, I immediately want to meet her dad. I was like, I got to meet this guy. I'm all in on this family. Give this person a rose. Brooklyn, I think. Justice for Brooklyn. I think Brooklyn is your next bachelor I think

she can be a hometown though I like charity though but that's why they did I think they gave her the one-on-one because I think they were like she's a firecracker she's been

saying respectfully shut the fuck up like they were like the producers were sort of in this moment before it's airing being like okay we foresee her being a real fan favorite so

we're gonna give her the dignity of like a goodbye on a one-on-one they want the like the whole ranch date where like all the guys have to like do the rodeo whatever oh she i think i think she's my big time front runner i personally would like to see gabby someone being a family therapist a licensed therapist actually having the i think i'm not a charity fan why i just i think she's more part of the i think she's very smart and i think she's more a part of the drama than she leads on and i don't believe in her connection with i don't know i just i don't see any of that i don't know i yeah it's just like that's she seems like a wonderful person i i

would push back on her being a part of the drama, mostly because of how she handled who is Anastasia, that whole situation, because she was the one who heard it, heard about the followers like she was like the quoted resource of the firsthand. And she like told someone else. But she didn't. I think she could have made that much more dramatic than she was when Zach brought it to her. She said, yes, this is what I've heard.

I'm like, she didn't do a cheap shot at anyone. She was honest and transparent, but didn't blow it out of proportion. I would want Gabby to be my bachelorette. If I had any choice between who is left, I would pick Gabby. She seems really fun, and I think she'd really... I would like to see her engage with the man. I think she would push back in a really enjoyable way that would be kind of fun.

I don't know. That would be my choice. I think it's going to be Brooklyn, which last week I called her a bully, so she probably won't call her. Brooklyn, come chat with us. If I were to try to say it in a nicer way, I think what's like about her

and what a lot of people respond to is she's that type of friend who has that like kind of courage and strength to stand up for herself and her friends and like it's a very redeemable quality she goes hard to the pain she does i just think like sometimes that energy is misdirected and i think and with the cat stuff i think you know in a world where your energy is often misdirected because of outside influences you might not be aware of, I don't think Kat deserved that energy from Brooklyn. Yeah, it's like sentencing.

It's like not every crime results in a life sentence. I was wondering, though, if there were other things that Kat had done that warranted that big of a response from Brooklyn. Warranted? Maybe not warranted, but if there were little things that had built up that it wasn't just about Kat pulling him for those five minutes prior to... It was like the straw that broke the candles back at that point.

Kat strikes me as like the friend who is like so, so, so hot and yet you somehow spend the most time complimenting her because she like sure needs do you know what i mean where it's like yeah but like i you know i will say this about kat i think she really liked zach i think her feelings were genuine and i think she is a very beautiful person

it seems like and you're right but is that cat's fault for liking zach so much and falling kind of victim to the bachelor world and being consumed by this very powerful kind of like drug and she you know like she like doesn't read the room and then she's like and they're yelling at me now and it's like if you just read the room they wouldn't be yelling she definitely had victim mentality when she was I completely could have handled it better I think I I think Kat she again I don't mean to argue about this again no no when you call someone a name you have the right to like defend yourself and i think we can debate whether you thought she should interrupt or not but like my criticism of brooklyn was not if she wants to be

annoyed with cat be annoyed with cat but i don't think her energy was like you don't need to call her names it was a little disproportionate for going was a little harsh. Kat was pursuing a relationship she had genuine feelings for. I do think that it's okay to pull someone if you want that time. I agree with you of you should be capitalizing on the time, but the fact that every single woman there was not okay with it. If my friend is succeeding and doing something good, I'm supportive of it. So the fact that every woman had some feelings about it made me

think that there was more to it sure you're probably you're certainly right i just don't know if that makes them right and her wrong it just means that she was this type of person like you know i think it's just different mentalities of like she as you mentioned is like in full pursuit of her relationship with zach she is not considering the fact that they're all dating the same guy and probably have the same feelings, because that also popped up when Brooklyn got the one-on-one and Kat was crying and saying, like, well, now I'm insecure and da-da-da.

Like, she was not happy when both Katie and Brooklyn got the one-on-ones and she kind of took it as a personal insult to her and, like, a reflection of her connection with Zach, when in reality, I'm like, I understand that. I see that. I hear that.

You're also sitting in a room of every other girl who's in that exact same boat as you are. Everyone wants a second one on one, but not everyone can get them. I'm going to do this again. I just, again, as someone who's been in that world,

I've never, I don't see, I've never seen when you, it's what's crazy about watching the bachelor. I've never seen so many people who have nothing to do with an open relationship or a polyamorous relationship, know how would they act when they start having actual, real, that feel like real feelings.

And then we're criticizing their lack of interest in sharing and taking turns and as someone who i've seen like when you get to this point of the show there are people who are like all in and truly like thinking holy shit i have these real feelings and other people like deep down they just know it's just not there between them and it's just all a performance and they do a good job of like selling it and like they're in it but as soon as they leave they'll be like they knew they're not going to get picked and it's just hard for me to hear people criticize and say how like oh you should you know it's like you're supposed to

take turns and you see other people like everyone else had a problem like maybe everyone else is like zach a little bit less there's something about pursuing what you want but also having empathy for others while doing it. And I think that those two things can coexist. And I think that she's pursuing what she wants without the understanding of what other people are going through. Well, maybe speaking to what you're saying, Nick, is like, I don't know that it's like, yeah, maybe it's like understandable why she's doing what she's doing. So maybe it's more of how impressive is it that there's other people who are in the same situation?

Like Gabby and Katie, I will not believe that they are less in love or interested in Zach. And so how impressive that in the same context, they've been able to rise to the occasion of continually managing their own emotions and balancing it with the needs of the people they're surrounded by in a way that Kat hasn't.

We're literally talking about the fact that Kat stood up and said zach can i talk to you and kissed him and everyone's asking like she cries when she doesn't get the rose we're talking about the fact that in every single confessional she has like she like she thinks she's the lead of the show and again like yeah i don't think that's a bad thing i just think it's hysterical that we're like we're criticizing someone for giving a shit and being emotional. Fine. She's doing it in a way that makes it everybody else's problem. Okay.

The tears felt a little manipulative to me. And obviously I'm not in her brain. I don't know that, but it felt weird. So you don't believe her relationship with Zach? She wants to be chosen more than she wants him. You're suggesting and you're kind of implying that she's she doesn't really like no i'm just coming from i'm saying honestly from my own perspective my own life there have been times when like someone will be like you know what like i don't want to go on another date or like ghost or whatever and i'm like what you don't want me when

she doesn't really want him it's like she wants to win. She wants the rose. She wants the validation. And so she's crying more over that than it is her connection with him. No, I hear you. And she's too young to understand the difference between the two. Where are you getting that? Like, why? What makes you think that? That's what I'm saying.

Like, what is she doing? I think it's pretty telling that, that like their relationship started to devolve because she was not finding harmony in the house like she was creating whether it was like the way she was reacting to other people getting group date roses or just like kind of generally the way she was interfacing with the other women like it seems like there was and like she had the brooklyn drama and like that's when things started to like crumble with Zach was like she was not doing a good enough job of like managing her environment. And that was what like it wasn't like she and Zach had any like if they did, we sure like didn't see it. So granted, she definitely emoted more than the other women and cared more and handled her disappointment differently.

And we can all we can sit there and criticize. But yeah, I just I don't I don't I'm just surprised by the heart. The hard hitting takes regarding someone who a one just grabbed a guy who we have no reason to like if we don't believe her genuineness. I just I haven't heard a reason why. Like why I'm having that opinion on it is because of how the other girls in the house reacted and maybe that's something to do with editing but i i guess i trust more so if like six women seemingly feel the same way as someone who's been in that world who and i and i had you know in the time real feelings for andy and caitlin and my intentions were constantly questioned by the house and it's just like it's the house is always the bully just they're always the bully and i just don't think you can you can know someone's

intentions because one person is annoying the house i have no cat probably isn't knowing the fuck out of these women that doesn't mean she's disingenuous maybe i i don't i just don't think that can that proves i don't know we're accusing her of being disingenuous. None of us are. You suggested that her actions were a little manipulative. I think she's not aware of it. It's an emotional... Okay, that's what it is.

And again, so much of this is like, I just want to disclaim her. This is the limited version I am getting on a show. Listen, we don't know these people. So I don't mean to be coming down really hard on her.

Not attacking her character. Yeah, I don't mean to attack her character or be too harsh on her. I'm sure she's a lovely lovely amazing person with wonderful qualities who can be an awesome friend from this very limited window of what I've seen on the show it's like a level of like emotional self-awareness in terms of both like kind of what Kathy was saying of knowing when you're upset because of Zach like knowing when you're feeling like you're freaking out because

you thought you were winning and now you're not and that's really uncomfortable and then also like in just being able to be like self-regulate your emotions be like yeah I'm like it's fair to be devastated that you didn't get the group date rose like that sucks especially if you thought you got it but like you're not doing the work of regulating that and being like I'm gonna wait for three minutes until we leave and I can be in my confessional and sob there as opposed to crying in front of everybody else. And like, I mean, just did that. A lot of the women did that. I don't.

And again, you're right. I mean, that is it's kind of obnoxious, but it's a pattern with her. Like, it's a pattern of her kind of like her emotions when they come up. It is everybody else. Like she doesn't it doesn't seem like she does anything to kind of like temper the way that interacts with everybody else. It just becomes everybody else's problem and i think it's you start to resent someone when you're constantly like babysitting them emotionally or when you're

experiencing the same thing too it's not even like oh my friend is going through a breakup or a heartbreak let me be there for you that gets tiring even if it's just continuously continuously continuously let alone when you're like how am i supposed to comfort you we're dueling with the same thing we're all agreeing that cat was probably obnoxious and i'm saying that i think the energy that she's receiving from the house is her being annoying and i don't think it's her being disingenuous or or rude or bad character i think it's her i think they're sick of her i do and i think i and i and I and if I don't I haven't seen anything that tells me I think she really likes Zach and if you and if people think she's like being disingenuous I'd love to know what have we seen from that that suggests and I I don't I

don't really I'm surprised that Kat's into Zach she seems like a very pretty person who like and I think maybe people don't buy that maybe Maybe we're watching Zach and we're like, everyone's calling him like this perfect guy with no flaws. And every week we see him like, you know, kind of like shame these women into like thinking like all the feathers and we're like seeing a different version. I don't know what it is, but like I. I'm so excited for the women tell all. Yeah.

I think they're going to come for him. It will be also be really interesting to see the way that like Kat and Brooklyn like do they diffuse like is Brooklyn like hey I I apologize I was like a little bit too harsh like I stand by my point but the way I said it was like not cool and was like a little bit I didn't need to keep picking at it and picking at it and picking yeah and like and now with some distance like is it like everyone's fine or is it like the tensions have only heightened now that people have seen like just how much like the confessionals like what was going on there in terms of like seeing how like kat like the way she frames things not only with the group but like also how she's

talking about things like in the confessionals like it's just i don't know it's gonna be fascinating to see if they like her more or less i think she might have a tough time at the at the women's hall brooklyn's to go after Kat pretty hard. She'll be gassed up. They'll both be gassed up. Actually, I think they've already filmed it, so I don't know what's happened, but I would predict that they'll try to get Spicy Brooklyn to... Spicy Brooklyn.

And then I think you're going to get a couple other women chime in, and I think my guess is that Kat might have a hard time. Aerie would be an interesting bachelorette choice i would love her i think she'll have a strong like niche following but like it won't be as empowerful as like the the brooklyn country you know that that really brooklyn really plays for their to their fan base watch the producers just be like we're gonna have three bachelorettes this season like do something stupid yeah it will be interesting i think arrow would be an awesome batch she's really grown on me like at first i was like very for some reason when she first did the heartbreak thing i was just like that felt boring and played out to me and so i'd like started off by like kind of for no reason judging her for like this one little thing and

she has like i it's fascinating to me to see the way that some people are able to just really communicate authenticity like there is something about ariel that feels so authentic and gabby like i think we saw that like there was something about even on like the group day when all of them have this connection and they're all having these like good intimate conversations like there's just some a way that like certain people really shine through i think ariel is generally probably like she's like a cool person and it's effortless it's so effortless for her that sometimes you think she doesn't give a shit but i think the more you get to know her she's probably like a cool fun person zach kind of talked about that how like the more he gets to know her the more he's like having fun with her and kind of gets her sense of humor and

she probably has a dry kind of witty sense of humor i think she was the one that when she came out of the limo she was just so calm and i had never seen anyone so just like like it wasn't even monotone it was just like you are the bachelorette like you are more centered than he is yeah in this moment i remember flagging that and i think i did use the word word monotone just because she has just a very calm voice. And it was like a little lower pitch than everybody else's. But I remember flagging that. And I was like, who is this woman?

I'm so excited to be here and be on this journey with you. Did you see Katie as a bachelorette? I feel like she's going to be the runner up and not the bachelorette. I could see Katie. I could see Gabby. I could see Ariel. I could see Gabby. I could see Ariel. I could see Charity. I could see Brooklyn.

There's a lot from this season that I could see. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think Katie is wifey energy. I think Katie's getting the ring. Not after that one-on-one. Zach's like, ah, sorry.

You don't think Gabby's getting the ring? No, I think Katie's getting the ring, and I think Gabby's heartbroken. You think so? Yeah. If nothing else, it would show me that maybe Zach is willing to take on just the smallest amount of adversity.

I mean, if he does pick Katie, I think it's just easy with his life because she lives in Austin as well. I heard Zach lives in Pasadena now. Oh, does he? Interesting. Why have I not seen him out at the bars? He he grew up there i thought he grew up in anaheim okay sorry anaheim i don't know i could be wrong but he did i didn't that's not just like a temporary thing where he has to be

out here for media or i don't know yeah maybe he's living with mom and dad for the time being because he's 26 yeah yeah he is absolutely 26 i don't know anaheim hills do we wanna we i feel like we kind of hit on the katie one-on-one kind of hit on the group date like do we want to talk about brooklyn wait brooklyn again someone who was like spilling her heart and i could tell she like saw it in his eyes the entire time she was talking about her family and her past. And she's like, he doesn't care at all. Like that's that's just how it felt like she was crying because she could tell like he was just so disinterested. I love how and it's not just Zach like every every lead does this where it's always like this week where they're like they act surprised that the person that they're on a date with that that they don't want to take to hometowns, that just confessed.

They're surprised how important family is to them. Every week. And they told me how important family is to them and who am I to go into their house. It's giving Hannah Brown, breaking up with with Mike Johnson staring dramatically at the art crying because she's like I can't be your fourth like special lady in your life but I hear about the special ladies in your life Zach knows who his top two is for sure yeah yeah you know and so it's like whatever and I'm it's not a criticism of Zach but it's just hysterical that every season it's just the lead always a couple times at like talks as if they can't believe this person

they're sending home cares about their family it's just i just heard how like family's so important to them and like that just really made me realize that like i didn't love them and i couldn't give them what they really wanted and it's just like okay cool like you knew just but like okay you're surprised that you honor thy family okay yeah it's just like it's so it's like they're just trying to figure out an excuse that makes them sound like not like a dick for sending someone home and it's just in it's zach's way of letting you know that he cares so much about family he can't possibly it is weird that we've done like i feel like normally there's a one-on-one where someone gets sent home much earlier in the season, not this late in the game.

And that felt a little off. Yeah. Like right before hometown. I sent Danielle home that same day. Interesting. I think honestly, I saw a theory that had had Zach not gotten COVID and had he been able to take charity on a date, the following one-on-one week probably would have been open for Jess. Got it. So maybe that would have happened,

a same date, or Greer, I guess, would have maybe been a same date. Either way, if Zach really was that interested in Jess, if Jess was really in his top two or three of people he thinks deep down he could end up with, she would have gone on one-on-one. He would have made time for her. So yeah, maybe Jess was like, time for her so like yeah maybe maybe jess was like you know sucks for her like zach at covid and she didn't

get her like one-on-one but like zach didn't care he like he's he lost interest that whole like argument between him and jess just felt like he sent her home because he realized that he was wrong and he didn't know how to backtrack out of it like maybe yeah i was i thought it was kind of funny like with brooklyn like because it is kind of to me it's like kind of clear that like he does not like her as much as he likes his real front runners and i thought it was so funny that it's like katie gets like a moment in this like private bathhouse and then they're at like the fucking YMCA of Hungary for her and there's like an old man just like floating on his back that was a really cute scene though the couple that met at the bath house yeah I loved it it was really fun Zach took her on that date to send her home like 100% like

that that whole date was I think to your point earlier of giving Brooklyn maybe her moment you know I think with the fake steam they really you know and like danielle the producers the producers love danielle like on my season like that was i had really nothing to do with any of that yeah at all that was you know i was even analyzing the like run and jump into his arms with brooklyn and she seemed so hesitant about doing it like she's walking up to him in Budapest like very slowly and then it's like,

I was like, oh, she's not running and jumping in his arms and literally the last three steps she starts doing it and just looked like, okay, I have to do this. She's like, oh, right.

Here we go. Not that I missed you. I definitely didn't miss you, but. I don't know how she's not the Bachelorette. She's too perfect for them. Yeah. Yeah. She's definitely there for them. Yeah. Yeah.

She's definitely there. They're Hannah Brown. I hope Katie wins and Gabby can be the Bachelorette. Yeah. Gabby's funny. My second choice would be Ariel, then Brooklyn, then Charity. I think Charity, then Brooklyn, then Gabby. A lot of tears with Charity.

I'll say that. It'll be a lot of tears. I like Charity. What can I say say there we go a lot yeah i guess the question is like do you like with like personal preference in terms of bachelorette like do you like to watch like a very calm like no incredibly sane person devolve and like kind of like go crazy with the circumstance or do you like to watch someone who like comes in guns a blazing like fire meets fire kind of right crazy with the circumstance? Or do you like to watch someone who comes in, guns a-blazin', fire meets fire kind of right away? Because with Brooklyn, it's like we know right away.

I can see, you can see the heightened emotion. Honestly, I enjoyed Hannah Brown's season just as much as I enjoyed Michelle Young's season. I love both of them for different reasons. I thought both seasons were very entertaining. Also, shout out to hannah brown for winning that special forces yeah yeah good for hannah brown tough lady like honestly like that show looked dope i didn't watch it did anyone watch it i didn't really hear a lot

of buzz but like either way she won so yeah i feel like all the buzz i saw was around her tic tocs and whatever yeah they were just surrounding this it looked like a dope show either way it's hard there's so much content and there's so much yeah i'm trying to like mooch his login just to watch vanderpump so well don't miss out on going deeper this this week georgia hasarati from uh perfect match she's i mean her and dom were fighting over the weekend like there's a big scandal now. She has a lot to say. Speaking of notes app drama. Yeah. She has a lot to say.

She's been chomping on the bit sending me voice notes and she is ready to share her truth and I think it'll be very, very interesting for people to hear. I think people are going to want to tune in to that one. Anyway, anything else we're missing? No, just Vile Files Plus is dropping this.

So just go to vilefiles.com, hit the Vile Files Plus tab, sign up. Super easy to do that. It's free. You might as well just go sign up. Check it out. You can always cancel. And one of the awesome things that you'll get on Vile Files Plus, Better Date Than Never, also happening live this week on Thursday, 6 p.m. Pacific, 9 p.m. Eastern.

It's going to be super fun and loose. It's the best are we discussing it's real fun did we just did we make like a game another game time decision I think you did what was it breakups break up notes yeah like awkward breakup stories yes especially like early on like with those kind of like you've been on a few dates met on the apps whatever like we will be going off and going in. All right. Kathy. Yeah.

Always a pleasure. Great to see you. Thank you for taking the time. Thanks for having me. Welcome back anytime. Please let my audience know all the great things you're doing over, obviously, at WWE. Yes. And all the other great things.

Well, you can follow me on Instagram at Kathy Kelly, on Twitter at Catherine Kelly. Yeah, I'm at WWE, so you can catch me every Monday night on Monday Night Raw. Wait, can you tell me a tiny bit more about what that entails? Because that seems so badass and intriguing, but I am not in the WWE like sphere. Yeah. So, I mean, just very briefly going back years ago, how I met Nick is I was working at this podcast studio called After Buzz and I was working on The Bachelor franchise which was like kind of the first podcast that covered um all of this you know dating reality tv show stuff um and then airing at the same time or right after was the Monday Night Raw after show and

so I started watching WWE because of this um started then hosting that show, got swept up by them, was there for four and a half years, and then just started back in October. It's a lot of fun. So I interview all the wrestlers from John Cena to Rhea Ripley and all those in between. It was a lot of fun. Your last afterbuzz, I was the guest,

and it was like your last day in your movie. I remember that way back when. Yeah. Always great to see you, Kathy. Thanks for coming. I mean, now that I know there's a dog here, I'm going to come in every week. There we go. All right.

Well, thanks for listening, guys. Go ahead. Check out Vile Files Plus. Subscribe. We'll see you Thursday night for Better Date Than Never. Georgia Hasarati for Going Deeper. Vile Files Plus on Friday. On Friday.

Bye.