The Viall Files - E557 Bachelor Recap with Andrew Spencer and Susie Evans

Episode Date: March 21, 2023

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Bachelor Recap Edition! Today we are joined by Bachelor Nation’s Andrew Spencer and Susie Evans to talk about “sex week.” We first discuss some Bachelor Tea - including dating post-show and getting on Raya - before getting into the episode. How did Zach handle Fantasy Suites, and why does Andrew think Susie is to blame? Why was Gabi given a scarlet letter, is Kaity the final rose pick, and how was Zach set up to fail? We get into all the details.  “This is all Sean Lowe’s fault.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://www.viallfiles.supportingcast.com  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/ To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Rothy’s - For stylish and comfortable shoes, shop Rothy’s. Get $20 off your first purchase at https://www.rothys.com/VIALL Drizly - Drizly is the most convenient way to buy beer, wine and spirits, with delivery to your doorstep in under 60 minutes. Download the Drizly app or go to https://www.Drizly.com Brooklinen - For a limited time, get $20 off plus free shipping on orders of $100+ with code VIALL. https://www.brooklinencom/VIALL Tawkify - Tawkify is offering our listeners 20% off when you become a client at https://www.Tawkify.com/VIALL Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @andrewzspencer @susiecevans @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell 

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files bachelor recap edition it's sex week boy boy is it ever amanda is wearing pajamas i pitched in the group chat yesterday night i said y'all you're gonna hate this idea i think we should wear pajamas every week for fantasy sweets week and i said it's a great idea but i probably won't do it and i said to start a tradition someone's gotta bite the bullet i'm really proud of you for following through on your idea i will say she teased it well getting a text that says y'all are gonna hate this idea you're on you're ready and then i walked in this morning i thought what an interesting outfit and then i realized that

they were pajamas and i forgot about people need pajama sets in their life do you have any pajama sets what do you wear for bed um no i'm just a box there's no shirt guy yeah there's no shirt yeah i hear that i also think pajama sets as little do you wear pajamas to bed most nights okay yeah it's kind of become a thing yeah suzy you're a pajama person um no i'm actually not i feel like i'm a big t-shirt kind of person okay baggy t yeah all right I do have a lot of cute pajamas. Okay. Yeah. Wonderful. They sit in a shelf somewhere. Great. Well, we have a full lineup today.

Andrew Spencer, Susie Evans, and the household is with us today. Lots to get into. We thought it would be apropos to have Susie join us. We need a woman on the, we have Allie and Amanda, but a woman. Girls. A woman with fantasy suite experience.

Or Allie and Amanda. Or fantasy suite week experience at least. We all know you were a big part of, obviously, last year's kind of crazy finale. So, you know, and maybe you won't maybe you don't have any insight to share suzy but we figured we'd bring you on to see if you do i feel like you might i feel like you might andrew you're also with us yeah if you didn't know that no fantasy suite uh how are you here we're good yeah you're good yeah i'm doing great man you're

feeling good you know i'm trying just got back. You're feeling good? You know, I'm trying. Just got back from Vegas, so I'm, you know, slowly recovering. What was the high and low of Vegas for you? I think it was all highs. There wasn't really any lows except for the lack of sleep. How long were you there? And dehydration. Two days.

That's probably the perfect amount. That's the perfect amount of time. Exactly. So I had one night. Oh, Bella Hadid was there, was uh really cool just like in vegas with you or well we were like at the same event and she like came up to abigail which was the craziest she's like i love you and we're just like looking we're like oh yep that's bella and then andrew and bella had their own fantasies

throw my hat in there what was the event for? It was for a restaurant opening for one of our close friends knows him, and they invited us, so it was really cool. Very cool. Yeah. Well, lots to get into, Allie. Let's get started with the- Some bachelor tea. Whatever tea.

Bachelor tea. Is there any tea out there? Well, Gabby Windy might be dating Alan from Dancing with the Stars. They just wrapped up their tour. And, you know, people had thought they were maybe flirty and like some behind the scenes footage. But they were spotted out at Avra, which is like a Mediterranean place in Beverly Hills. And they like went on a date night and people were commenting that like they were just like beaming at each other. And like they went to dinner.

Just the two of them. Yes. And a source told people they're both single. He wants to find love and so does she. He asked her out. This is their first date. They haven't been out at all. He was so excited to take Gabby out. They grew really close while Gabby was on Dancing with the Stars

and remained close. The hope for both of them is that something blossoms from this. Who is the source? Alan or Gabby? Literally, how do you know that's the first date? It's Dancing with the Stars. It's Tyra Banks. No, it's not. That's not Tyra Banks. Yeah, she's leaving. She's leaving.

Oh my. Yeah, she's gone. The restaurant they went to is $4 signs on Google. How do we feel about that? Like four out of four. What does that mean? It means it's like the most expensive. Use that Dancing with the Stars money. For a first date, like,

would you enjoy going somewhere very, very fancy for a first date? No. Well, yeah,

yes and no. It depends. I think in this context it makes sense. Clearly, they've been touring the country together. There's probably

a lot of rapport. Yeah. A first date that you met on a dating app though? Yeah, that's a little heavy. Unless he's like a millionaire who's wanting to ball out.

Exactly. Even still, it's just a little much. I feel like it's like you throw money at situations. It's hard to not have that takeaway even though maybe it's just like they wanted a lovely seafood dinner in Beverly Hills. Anyway, well, do we ship them? I think they're cute.

I think they're very cute. Eric's got a girl now. Maybe does Gabby feel the pressure now that Eric is in love? You know that for sure. Yeah, we're very close. I was just talking to her before this. I actually am the source that went to people. I was sitting there as well.

But no, I feel like she's been very, I feel like she's been very i feel like she's been focused on dancing with the stars okay moving on those are the vibes i get from a distance gotcha but ivan hall got engaged yes a lot of people are moving on doing big things suzy was the videographer for the engagement how tell us more suzy i met ivan last year and then he reached out um pretty like pretty recently and asked if i'd be down to do it i was like oh my gosh hell yeah so i flew out there and i just like kept it a secret on social media um and then yeah he got her a freaking tesla a ring and a tesla i was like what side of bumble do i need to be on wow yeah and then he took her to opera to celebrate i know he's breaking the union line are we buying cars now for engagement

bro what the ring ain't enough isn't there like a back order for teslas you get a brand new car did he give her the car or the engagement ring first was it like will you marry me oh by the way here's a car or like was the ring in like in the car he waited for the yes to make sure it was true love and then he brought out the car because if not and she said no then he was like oh at least i have a new car yeah send it back all right i do feel like whenever there's those car commercials around the holidays where it's always like surprise i got you a car everyone's like wait but that's a huge financial decision you should consult your partner so in a way it does almost make sense to do it before you're a merged entity while you're still individual two separate bank accounts it's good for Tesla, honestly.

That's a great... Yeah, maybe he got like a deal. I'm assuming. Why would he get a deal? I don't know. Tesla's like ads. This is like Susie Evans' videographing this.

I don't know what the... Yeah, I actually hooked it up. They contacted me. Maybe. I don't feel like Tesla's out there giving out deals. If you got a deal, Ivan, hook it up.

Give us the discount code. Hashtag sponsored. Ivan20 at checkout. Alright, well, congrats. What's his fiance's name? Taylor. Taylor. Congrats to Ivan and Taylor. Love it.

Almost said Susie. Congrats to Ivan, Susie, and their Tesla. Woo! What a collab. Michelle Young was recently talking about Raya and how hard it is to get on Raya because now she's out here in LA. Susie, maybe, I don't

know if you're on Raya or if you try to get on Raya, but Michelle was saying that whoever created Raya extremely dislikes Bachelor Nation and it's impossible to get on. I found it interesting. She was like, you know, the Hannah B's of the world, it's impossible to get on. And I was like, or is it impossible for you to get on? It just felt like she had this whole personal experience and then was like, you know, Hannah

B. Well, maybe before she was in a relationship, Hannah B. tried to get on. Totally, yeah. Told people she couldn't get on. Are you on Raya? Did you try to get on? I'm on Raya.

You are. Oh! Oh, shit! Guys, relax. Who needs a Tesla? He's on Raya. Susie, are you on uh on raya yeah i'm on nick at any point in time i was on raya but it's uh it's a was a little different in my day yeah in my day when i i first moved to la raya had just gotten started yeah and they were like

just trying to get people on so they first asked me to go on and i was like no like i would this was shortly after caitlin's season i was like i don't i don't i'm not ready for this and then a few months later when i was just like kind of bored and didn't really have a lot of friends in la i was like oh fuck it i went on and and it was really have a lot of friends in LA, I was like, you know, fuck it. I went on and, and it was on for a while. And then when they made me the bachelor, I had to like frantically get off. And then,

well, it was like running from a tornado. It all happened very quickly when they asked me to be the bachelor to being announced. And I was like, Oh shit guys, I'm on Raya. Like,

and I, you know, and so I should probably, and it's not like getting off a raya is like trying to cancel a gym membership uh it's not easy and then after vanessa and i broke up i i went back on for like a year do you have to pay no matter what on raya yeah uh i didn't but again i think i was an early adopter nowadays but then i think now it's been out for a while they have more people they can get more picky i think when it comes to bachelor alums you know

you get 60 new people every season and i think they're trying to keep it it's it's an exclusive app like rye is not for love it's for clout you know so like it's like you know you might yeah well let me crush our dreams let me know you find love and i've never heard of a raya success story uh i actually had a pretty good marriage i don't know well tell us tell us your story i mean no no no no no i'm not a great girl. I'm Raya. So, I mean, I think it's possible. Andrew doesn't want to get kicked off.

He's like, don't say anything bad. No. He's like, no, it's all about the connection. I support Raya. Me and Susie endorsed this message. Yeah, use their their promo code do you guys have any do you have any tips for any other bachelor nation alums who are trying to get on raya as a as a you know the bachelor didn't work now now they're turning to riot i would say don't say you're on the bachelor uh i think if you just kind of sign up and just not like use your regular profession and not you got on because of your football thing right yeah that's that's not on yet so it's not like it

depends on what you put in to the criteria maybe don't have bachelor you know all your seasons on your instagram bio yeah that too probably yeah i don't have my season yeah i mean either like that yeah yeah raya tips 101 there we go and it's like if you know it's like you watch bachelor 2 ha you know it's like you can get that out of me yeah i wouldn't i wouldn't have season whatever with a rose in your bio what if i just i'm gonna start doing start doing that. This is a random, like a really old season. Just like tag random shows. I was on the circle. That's right, if you do,

people call you out. Okay, final little tidbit because I feel like we're talking a lot about bachelor relationship stuff. Tyler Cameron recently spoke out about his time dating Gigi Hadid and like the pressure that was. And he was saying that at that time time he had $200 in his bank account and he's like trying to date Gigi Hadid over here.

Oh, no, I know what he's talking about. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a real thing. Like right off the show, like you're just like, I mean, you get in this world and you're like, oh, wow, this girl is this and this. And I'm like, well, I'm not like balling like these guys are. So I know exactly what he's talking about. And I love how he explained it. And he's open to be talking about that.

I know a lot of people want to say something bad about it. But it's the truth. A lot of guys don't have a lot of like date money to go on dates, but they go anyway. So it's actually a true testament to the girl that he's doing that for. Yeah. Did you ever have uh whether it was right after the bachelor or any other time in your life where you had like no money to your name but you're out there like oh yeah when i was living out in europe man going on dates out there and i found

a way through the system it's go on walks man go on walks and you just find these little food vendors and stuff like that's half baked yeah I don't need to eat I'm not hungry, are you? I haven't eaten for 24 hours. I'm on a cut. Susie, have you ever been on a date where you got the impression that cash was a little tight for your date? I don't think any first dates or anything like that. I've been in relationships where the money's been tight. Would you split the check or are you waiting for him to pick it up? Oh, no. I'm always reaching for the pocketbook you know we love that i'm hoping that they're gonna stop me yeah yeah it's the reach

it's like the insincere grab we all love an crocodile arm you know all it needs yeah but i insist i'll be like no please please please please let me let me at least split like i will i will pursue it because i'm like i want them to know and i really would split it but like i probably would judge them a little on a first date if they're like yeah go ahead i would judge them little, as you should. What else we got? That's wrapping up our tea. We got a media episode. Charity said that the feeling of being the next Bachelorette is indescribable.

Indescribable. Well, isn't that a descriptor? Well, are you excited about Charity as the Bachelorette, Andrew? You know, I'm excited about anyone gets the opportunity to do that. I think everyone's pretty much, you know, worthy of that position. It's not like, oh, this person or that person. I think there was a lot of people that could have been the Bachelorette from this cast.

Yeah. Like who? I thought Ariel was good as well. She was super funny. And then I, I don't think, am I allowed to say that yet? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, she's gone, yeah. Okay.

I don't wanna like spoil something. RIP. I thought she was great. I thought she was great I thought Jess was great as well Jess? I did I don't know why I thought she was like very intentional with what she you know what she was being there for pro or con of the glitter

the body glitter I think it's pro I guess Susie is pro I don't know really too much about it Andrew could we see you back on the shores of paradise is that in the cards for you still i mean i wouldn't mind but it's it's the contract at this point it's like i kind of want to like just kind of be able to do my thing in life um but like you know you can't sometimes and so it's not like a out of

the question thing jess would be on your radar it sounds like maybe no no no no that's not what i'm saying why is nick like match me he's like and then no no that's not what i'm saying i'm just saying that there's a lot of girls actually i all top 10 could have been uh easily the bachelorette i don't know if i agree with that but really all top 10 i swear like the whole, um, the reunion show, I thought that was fun. They were all, they all had personalities. I didn't see that in like the show, but I was like, wow, they're very like outgoing. It was good to see. Yeah.

It was good. It was a good cast. All right. Susie, your thoughts, charity, bachelorette. We love. Yeah. I love, I feel like she's going to be great. I think she's beautiful.

She's very smart. Um, I think from what I've feel like she's going to be great. I think she's beautiful. She's very smart. I think from what I've heard, she's a really good person. So I think that's refreshing and nice to hear that it's just like gone to somebody that's genuinely kind and I'm excited to see it. But I also think there were so many great choices in the cast. Like there were so many cuties. I also love Jess. I think she would be a great bachelorette. I think, I mean, who knows? She's pretty young, so it could happen down the road. Yeah. Team Jess over here.

Yeah. All right. Also, Susie would have been a great bachelorette as well. I agree. Susie would have been an awesome bachelorette. I was looking down my life for Susie to be the bachelorette. I still would love Susie to be the bachelorette. Yeah, I feel like it is not a dead possibility.

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Well, that's it, I guess, for the tea. Before we get into the episode, a couple housekeeping notes. Speaking of Ariel, we will have Ariel on the show next week after AFR. Nice. Get her thoughts and all on Sex Week and the finale. So we're excited to have Ariel. Just a couple programming notes, too. So we're going to actually be dropping the episode with Ariel

it'll release sometime on Tuesday right after the finale and then the recap for the finale will be in lieu of Going Deeper on Thursday so basically we're moving Going Deeper to Tuesday with Ariel and then the recap will be on Thursday just we want you to get that

Ariel episode out right away and then we'll drop that on Thursday. We want you to get that Ariel episode out right away and then we'll drop that recap next Thursday for you all. So just some quick programming shifts. Also, we have Rachel Bilson this week on Going Deeper this Thursday. Be sure to check that out. That'll be a ton of fun. Rachel and I will get to catch up. We haven't talked in a while and see what she's up to.

Apparently, she's had an orgasm for the first time from sex. Speaking of sex week. So she's been talking about that. I don't know. I don't know if we'll get into that or something else. But I do know she's recently in the news for that. Don't forget another episode of Better Date Than Never this Thursday live at 9 p.m. Eastern, 6 p.m.

Pacific. If you can't join us live, don't worry. All the episodes of Better Date Than Never, plus bonus updates. When are we going to start Vanderpump? Soon. We're going to start Vanderpump soon. It's on the docket.

Very soon. We also have our Pop Culture Roundup, plus we have Rom-Com recaps. All my interviews with the ladies from my season on The Bachelor, all behind Vile Files Plus. You get a seven-day free trial, so check it out. Just go to vilefiles.com to subscribe. Literally everyone who signed up says it's amazing.

It was like, I've never seen these types of ratings and scores. It's truly incredible what the people are saying. The people like it. Yeah, like 100%. You heard it here first, folks. Like we're a tomato fresh or whatever they call it. Tomato fresh. Tomato fresh score.

We're certified fresh. So check out Vile Files Plus if you haven't already. And AMP this Thursday. Our topic is sex injuries. Sex injuries. If you've been injured, well, fucking. If you're six weeks. I one time got

suzy i feel like you have a story oh my god no i just had like flashbacks to like i feel like every no i don't want to go there i see my face we said sex injuries and i feel like everybody i'm like i saw ptsd it was like i'm like a trauma response from suzy everyone's had that experience when you're like I don't know we all know I'm not on that show this week alright alright well anything romantic before we

get into sex week let's get into sex week love song March Madness on the vile files Instagram there we go alright well the episode starts there in Thailand. Thailand. Yeah. Karate.

Yeah. It's beautiful. Zach, they really need to put the bachelors in like anything. They can. They need to update the wardrobe. It's too golf dad. Good Lord. Yeah.

I agree. But you kind of get a say. Don't you? You get to pick what you maybe that's his style. Maybe. Yeah. But that suit was a pushover. The suit?

I thought you were talking about the button up. The suit he wore at the end? No, I was talking about the beginning, his hero shot where he's on the boat and he's just like, you know, standing there and he's just got like khaki dad soccer shorts on and a floral shirt. Yeah. And a floral shirt. It just.

I'd take that over another shower scene though. I was going to say, also, is he naked? What do you mean? yeah and a floral shirt it just i'd take that over another shower scene though i was gonna say we've also is he naked what do you mean when he's showering and he's rubbing his chest profusely is he naked i when i was filming like my my uh bachelor bachelor intro package we were in chicago and they did a shower scene and like i think i yeah like sometimes you have shorts on but this particular time i was like i think i was i was naked and the camera guy was like really into his craft and like this the camera was just like up underneath my legs and like zooming in i just and it was like a long fucking day of this us doing all these shots and i was getting so pissed

and i call up producers i'm like why are you guys filming my balls like i don't understand this is on fucking abc like why am i shooting a fucking porno like it was just so and then they told me how they had like all this archive footage of like all these random things like this doesn't make me feel better that's maybe for control blackmail you exactly i don't know quiet we have your balls so sometimes they are sometimes they aren't i don't know i was i remember feeling very uncomfortable anyway so zach uh this this episode this is all sean lowe's fault sean fucked over zach i feel like andrew would say this might be my fault too i i did say that to you last night really i was like andrew would say this might be my fault too i did say that to you last night really i was like i don't know you think this well i think it's very calculated it's

more like trying to be the perfect bachelor and he like saw what clayton did and what happened in clayton season he tried to like right those wrongs and i'm like man if you just go into your own season and do it your way like i feel like he tried to appease to the crowd and not you know his true self you know no one told him to not do sex week no one told you to do that yeah it's really interesting because like yeah i remember going into sex week and i i told the producers um see that's where he made the mistake zach zach said i'm not having sex with anyone yeah it's like well i was like i'm only gonna have i'm like i'm not having sex with all of them i'm not hooking up with rachel and raven yeah i i told them that and i was just like so we have to figure out and

the fact that i didn't say anyone they couldn't like they couldn't film that you know because they couldn't give that away you know but the fact that he told the producers clearly that he wasn't going to have sex with anyone and they made him film this whole sit down with jesse and you could just tell you just you could just know that they were just like hoping he would fuck up and even giving oysters for dinner they're like jesse being like that's gonna be really tough. Are you sure you're going to be able to do this? I'm like,

okay. I heard, I don't know if this is true, but when Jesse was a bachelor back in the day, I've heard it was like very different. Like I heard there was lots of sex going on, like throughout the season, like back in the day.

I don't know if any of that's true but i i you know and not just jess specifically jesse but i just i've heard it was a very different time i just feel like it's super weird to put like a timeline on like sex in a way i feel like it's just like a moment thing and if you're feeling it go for it and if you're not feeling it's fine it's like like when people say like i'll wait till the third date to have sex like who who plans that i don't want to plan when i have sex you know what i mean in a way so i just like feel was a little weird that he was just like oh we're not going to do this i'll wait until after we'll plan that like come on man like if you're in the mood and you're feeling it you can't stop that like if i'm clearly he couldn't

yeah exactly so you should have just let the the vibes what it was gonna be suzy did you uh did clayton have any conversations with you or anyone else that you aware of about sex prior to that week not with me and not with anybody as far as i'm aware of, but, but obviously you never know. They could have. And I know that week during fantasy suite week, I think Gabby said like, I want you to explore these relationships fully. They didn't say sex, but I feel like she was intending that she felt saying she felt comfortable with him exploring these relationships.

However, he felt he needed to, which is good because she was able to just communicate exactly how she felt. It was after he had already had his fantasy suite date with Rachel. But I thought that was cool because she was like, hey, here's how I feel about it. And I want you to know and I want you to be sure by the end of this that you're making the right decision for you. Remind the audience, because honestly, I don't totally remember. What was your fantasy suite date weekend?

Like, you didn't end up going to the fantasy suite because... They left dinner. Yeah. And because at the time, you had a lot of reservations about the possibility of him having slept with anyone else. Like, what were you feeling going into that week? You were last, I think. And did you know you were last?

Only after the second date was announced and it wasn't me okay and so like what was your mindset going into that week like what is like you know you you certainly were aware of the show you knew how the show worked you knew that sex was on the table uh what was yeah what were some of the thoughts and concerns that you had going into that week? And what was your reasoning for having the conversation with Clayton that you did? And knowing what you know now, would you have done anything differently? For sure, I would have done things differently. That's like 100% knowing what I know now.

But I think going into the week, I really wasn't that stressed. I think the show played it up massively. They showed me going down the spiral staircase and like the whole week of Fantasy Suite week, I actually was kind of sick and I just wasn't feeling well. But like I was emotional and I literally was like, no, I really feel like he should be able to explore this however he wants. I don't feel like I need to say anything or, or be like, you can't do this or you can do that. And I was really close with all the girls on my season at the time. So I was like, I don't want to interfere with other relationships.

I totally trust that this person is going about this however they need to. But I also know for myself, I'm like, there is no way I can start a healthy relationship in a circumstance in which this person is in love with anybody else besides me. Like if that person's in, if he's in love with somebody else and he's like, I'm trying to get there with you, that's me being, that's my cue to be like, I'm actually good. I'm going to dip out like that. I don't want somebody to try to get there with me if they're there with somebody else. going to dip out like that. I don't want somebody to try to get there with me if they're there with somebody else. And like the physical intimacy side of it as well, definitely just complicates

things. I think obviously watching last night, you can see how painful that is. Like if you think about somebody you love or really care about being physically intimate with somebody else, it just kind of feels disregarding. It's like disregarding what you have with them um obviously it's a unique situation and obviously it's worked for bachelors and bachelorettes previously where they've been able to find love and and have that full experience but i knew for me i was like i can't move forward if you're in love with multiple people if you're intimate with other people i didn't expect it to be like a triple whammy Of all of us. Yeah, but I love you the most You know what?

I think would be really cool is if Think you guys got to talk to him before like all at this like and just kind of tell your reservations on things I think that would be very what you think that the show should have the final three have like a little the show should have the final three have like a little group date setting and they can just like have an airing of grievances about like like what their position is on sex well no just like you know when you just get there you get to meet them right away and just have like a like a quick five minute chat on how they expect expectations from this you know what i mean so just like pick their brains instead of like showing up he's already seen two of the girls before she sees the light you know what i mean no totally

because i think a question that i had a lot during this episode was like was there any conversation about like what you want me to disclose because i think that's a really valid question like especially like amongst all the women being like what do we want to share with one another like what do we feel comfortable with here? Because there's very few situations where you would be having sex with someone who might also be having sex with someone else. And so it's not really like there's a clear playbook for like what's appropriate to share or what's not.

Susie, you had some thoughts. Oh, I was just like 100% yes. Like that was even something when I was having my conversation with Clayton, I was like, don't say anything that's going to jeopardize your other relationships. And I felt like watching Zach last night, same thing kind of happened where it's like, whoa, you're totally jeopardizing your relationship with that person.

And I'm kind of shocked that they didn't even, well, everybody, I'm kind of shocked how many questions aren't asked or topics aren't covered, whether it's in fantasy suites or before, because it's like exactly Zach was trying to like do right by his word and stand strong in his character and be like, I don't want to be a liar or mislead people. But then by doing that, you're kind of sharing intimate information that might have been personal and private to that person. That's now literally public. So it's really complicated yeah that that was the over lying theme overwhelming thing i don't know but overarching overarching theme is that like i thought you know i really i really felt for i know i've been hard on zach i really felt for him this episode because you can true you you really can tell he wanted to do the right thing whatever that was you know

like he wanted to do right by everyone including himself but at the same time he absolutely like yeah he shared gabby's truth without getting gabby's okay you know and like i i don't fault zach you know it's a very complicated situation but like yeah gabby definitely did not have a say yeah in in that and you could tell she did not go into fantasy suites having sex with zach expecting zach to tell the other bachelor she had that great quote where she said like he's feeling better because he cleared his conscience but like at the price of my heart and me yeah yeah i think all of her reservations had everything to do with the show like when she i don't think she cared about zach telling the other women i think she knew exactly what that meant and that meant doing this all on camera right i mean he was literally telling gabby he was talking about the sex they had on camera he's like hey so i know we fucked so like meanwhile there's a cameraman

there's like you know they're all mic'd up it's it's yeah i felt bad for ariel like basically you just told her i just didn't want to sleep. Yeah, but you know, this whole time she's like, hey, we're not having sex at all. And he didn't even apologize to her. He wouldn't apologize to Katie. And just like Ariel just sit there. Ariel's going to watch this and be like, what the fuck? We'll certainly get to ask Ariel about that next week. Also, Ariel's exit.

I was like, you go, girl. It was calm, cool, collected. I was like everything I love about her just shined in that moment. I felt really bad for her because she went in and just kind of feel out the process and he had this game plan

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And I think that from watching it, it's like, I think he was really, I don't know, maybe it was like in the moment he was like, okay, I think I'm going to be with Gabby. Like this feels right. But then maybe the next day he's like regretting that. I don't know. I think that if he had made this reservation and then knew that he wasn't picking Ariel and then move forward physically with her, then that could have been kind of shitty. But maybe he genuinely was just like acting on love rather than lust. Maybe. Now, I don't know of Ariel. Like Ariel might be like glad she's like well you know

you didn't pick me so now i didn't have that dirty dick away from me but like now is zach mad though because you know zach was like i'm not gonna have sex with anyone and then he has sex with gabby and we all can assume yeah he hooked up with i don't I think he did. I don't know if they did. Oh, you really? Because of the moment when he was walking Ariel out and Katie turns to Gabby and goes, I know you slept with him.

And I'm like, why would you say that to her? They've been pretty good friends this whole process. Because it's awkward? I don't know. Why would she say that to her and not give any sort of implication

that she also did the same thing when Gabby says, it feels like I have a scarlet letter on my chest. Well, we have three ladies in this room if you're in Katie's position you're in love with this guy you think you're the one and then you find out during fantasy suites that he slept with someone else and now it's your night and it was hard to hear it's you know you have all the same emotions that katie had during the day and then you kind of kind of center yourself

you get back to like all right well fuck it like it's bachelor i signed up for this kind of thing and you're a fantasy suite what do you think you would do would you want to be like well i gotta i gotta show them what this is all about. Fuck for my life. Fuck for my life. Literally. Or would you not? Like, what would you do? I'd be like, don't touch me.

I think I'd be like, absolutely not. You would. There's the couch. You would say don't. But like, this is. I don't think I would take it off the table. Because like, okay, so if we're fucking, it better be good. Would you still get engaged in two days?

Maybe. But you'd make him sleep on the couch? Yeah. Probably. Yeah. I sleep on the couch? Yeah. Probably. Yeah, I don't know why he told. Yeah. I don't think I would. I definitely wouldn't be able to be physical with him.

I feel like that would be off the table for sure. Just for how I work, I don't know. If I'm starting a relationship, if I were just having fun, it would be different. work like I don't know if I'm starting a relationship if I were just having fun it would be different but if I'm trying to start an intimate emotional relationship with somebody and you just were physically intimate somebody else it doesn't make sense in my brain I I wouldn't be able to do it but obviously Clayton and I worked out and off with us but it took time to work through that and to heal from like some of the pain that comes from that so i think that she probably can move forward and and she can be okay but i mean when it comes to the physical stuff i'd be like oh hell no we're

not doing that okay that goes i like i always say don't ask questions you don't want the answers to she didn't ask and he just like no that's like in my head like i'm not gonna ask the question because i don't want it to know yeah i really bulldozed through that confession too with Katie. He's like, so listen, anyway, so I said I wasn't going to have sex and then I did. It's like you're telling on yourself. Stop telling. And I think it was admirable to be like, okay, he is erring on the side of looking like an idiot. Or just looking kind of awkward.

Because it's weird to talk about this stuff open. I'm telling you, it's all Sean Lowe's fault. It's all Sean Lowe's fault. Unrealistic expectations from Sean Lowe. They had Sean Lowe, the only basher who's ever had a success story come in how many fucking times this season? At least three. And just

pour his way of life onto Zach as if well, you know, you have to be holier than thou or don't have sex or whatever and it's just like trying to follow the Sean Lowe narrative and here we are you know

here we are I was going to ask was Sean's decision that was like a religious or like a moral thing which would be very different right I mean it was like he was the virgin bachelor then you found out it was born again he wasn't really a virgin but he stopped having sex and then i've heard that he well he might have had sex with the other women in the fantasy suite like he also rounded a couple bases like it was all i always thought i heard i was

thinking about that as well yeah okay. Okay. Technicalities. Yeah. But yeah, he tells the world, you know, and Zach. It's all Sean's fault. I have a question. This might come off terrible. Has anyone ever had their period during? That's an amazing point. Anisey Sweets?

Probably. Like just waiting for this huge moment? Probably. And if so, they all did because they've been living together so they're synced up yeah that's a good point true yeah yeah shark week i i i'm not aware wow would that stop you from having sex i'm never i'm like no but i've had guys be like i don't care and i'm like but i do yeah yeah but i do yeah i was like but it's not just about you is it it's not about you right now i uh yeah i think it would have been um i think it would have been

a blessing if some people had had their period yeah for him that would have made it so much easier or at all let's say it was all of them well because i do think that was like a real in this episode because like ariel said it for a moment also is it ariel or ariel i keep gaslighting myself i just air ariel i think it's ariel all right ariel because i we've been saying Ariel, but when she read that card, she said Zach and Ari. She did it differently than we've been doing. I've been saying Ariel, but you guys said Ariel. And I was like, oh, wow.

No, I think you've been doing it right. We will clarify with her in studio. But I feel like she had a comment where she was kind of like, oh, no sex. Like, we'll see about that. And then Gabby definitely had a comment like that. So it's gabby had the what did she say exactly it was i think it was like we'll see about that or like i mean you guys been there for like two three months what do you mean i mean yeah imagine yeah i'm gonna dry hump it i'll be ready to go imagine it's the bachelorette and the bachelorette sits down and says, hey, not having sex with anyone.

And the fucking guy in an ATM is like, we'll see about that. Yeah. Imagine how that fucking goes. Imagine how that lands. That's where I was going. Where I'm like, this is like not when we stop and pause. It's like, this is a moment where I feel like. We're pushing some boundaries.

Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. When it comes to pressure about sex, there's definitely a double standard. That's for sure. Fantasy Suite Week was one of the most uncomfortable weeks of my life. Honestly, I feel like you're in your head as well. You know how it is.

Trying to get the blood flow to the... Yeah. You know? Pop a couple blue pills just to be... I'd be like, focus, focus, focus. Get a 12-hour erection. You think we can't do the rose ceremony? We just have to do them all back to back.

Tie it around the whole leg, you know. If someone fucks me with the same erection as he fucked the same girl, that's unacceptable. And you can't get it down. He's got to do them back to back. Yes! That's hilarious. He actually doesn't do any dinner portions it's just like meet him in the bedroom he can't leave no it's uh i think i i really watching this i really empathize with zach i think zach was as soon as he told anyone that he wasn't going to have sex. I think my guess is knowing from experience that pressure was applied. And I think it's all treated as no big deal because Zach's a guy.

socialized to be like don't give them your precious little flower or whatever and so then there's kind of you have this idea that like i'm the limiting factor like it's about when i give this thing away which is a real blind spot because it's not just about when you feel comfortable doing that there's like another autonomous person there but i think because there's like so much of this like socialization around like whether you're allowed to initiate sex or want sex like i think it's unfamiliar and because of that like, like, we see people, like, don't handle it perfectly at all. Right. I mean, I like the saying of overnights better than fantasy because I'd rather just be like, we get to spend the night together.

I think that's way more genuine. And, you know, whatever happens, happens. Instead of putting this pressure on, like, well, we're about to go. You know, Zach did not have to make it about sex. I mean, we now know matt james i think he's been pretty open that he didn't sleep with anyone it was never talked about certainly you know they did the whole like morning wake ups and people thought whatever they thought about you know and they made their assumptions and guesses that's how you do it like no one knew

and it wasn't really a part of of the show because he didn't give him anything to talk about he's like yeah you can film us waking up and people can you know make their own assumptions but zach brought up sex and and then made the whole he literally said sex week yeah yeah it's so yeah he's kind of shot himself in the foot with that yeah good for us bad for him but yeah he definitely unfortunately put himself in a in a tough spot because from that moment forward everyone was hoping that zach would fuck up and succumb to sex i guess i don't know yeah and i feel like one of the women i don't remember if this was like ariel or katie or maybe they both said it in different ways but where they were kind of like i don't like this isn't the kind of thing i go in with like a meeting agenda like we're gonna

do this ariel said that yeah ariel here no no i'm in my head yeah ariel ariel you think it's ariel damn i don't even remember now what if it's ariel ariel we're getting dangerously close to the crab and little mermaid ariel right ariel ariel ariel we're sorry ariel we're so sorry fix us We're getting dangerously close to the crab in Little Mermaid. Ariel, right? Ariel. Ariel. Ariel. We're sorry, Ariel. We're so sorry. Fix us. We're sorry.

It was her who kind of very cleverly was just like, I like to more respond to the moment, I think she was kind of saying, which it was great. I was going to say, I like how she handled it, because I felt like instead of just being like oh yeah we'll do whatever you want zach she was like oh like i have you know i also have feelings in this and have my own way that i would go about it it's like both their journeys it's not just sax um not to say that zach has to sleep with any of them but you know she wasn't just like oh i think that's a great idea you know she was she like stated how she felt too where she's like i think we should we shouldn't write anything off we should see where the night takes us yeah and it's freaking thailand like enjoy enjoy being there and if the emotions are

running high then get it done but like grubs making harney fuck like like come on now we have this beautiful place like let's not squander it like thinking about something that you know i mean can or can't won't happen You know what? I mean, so I think he just like focused on way too much of the whole like, okay We gotta get to sex. We gotta get to this like dude. I didn't leave New Mexico. Dude. You're in Thailand You were living life right now. You got beautiful women and you're in Thailand like I'm not thinking about anything else But just enjoying my time there. So I think that was like it's kind of frustrating me I was like bro you have no no no idea how good you

got it I think another reason that maybe the women would be or I'm curious what the rooms take on this is because like we know like the orgasm gap where like the difference me on my soapbox but like it's true like the rate of orgasm among women who are having sex with men is so much lower. Like it is like men having, men are having orgasms at much higher rates, like two women having sex

with one another or having much higher rates. It is this very specific like men, women fucking thing. So I think as like, and it's something that's come up so much on Better Date Than Never is like people not like being mindful

or like asking what you're interested in. And I think there's just like, I'm sure there's also some women who are absolute like terrorists when it comes to not being like generous lovers but i think it's a much more pervasive issue or a much more kind of like dice roll thing so it would make sense to me if ariel's like i want to make sure you're not like a shitty selfish lover who's like two pumps by like kind of situation do people agree with that or disagree yeah that there's like more volatility so maybe like a little bit more of a reason to explore

you could argue that instead of having sex you could just spend all night talking about what you like in bed or what your preferences are or how much you know foreplay you like or enjoy, how kinky you are or aren't, and you don't have to have sex in order to get on the same page in that department. I think you could find out a lot by asking them some very intimate and personal questions and see how they respond to those intimate and personal questions. Who knows?

If you ask those questions, you might get in the mood. That's what I'm saying. You guys are going to fuck. Exactly. Andrew keeps circling back he's like but if it's right it's right if your dick is hard your dick is hard we're in the moment

it's fucking Thailand Zach's like we don't want to have sex let's talk about sex on that and after every question Ariel's like but yeah that look that would be that'd be hard to pass up zach i don't know what you're doing i think it's kind of like in the u.s how you can't have you can't drink until you're 21

so when you're a teenager that's the only thing you want to do it says the goal so you're not when you're gonna have alcohol you're not thinking i'm gonna have wine with dinner you're thinking i'm gonna have it to get fucked up it's kind of the same thing is that sex being the goal, it's more, it literally makes it the goal talking about it. It's not about how you enjoy it or what it means. It's more so just doing like the ultimate, most extreme version of it. And I think that's the problem.

It sets it as the goal too much by saying it's not the goal. It makes it the only thing people want to do. Yeah. Totally. Am I the only one who thinks Zach also had sex with Katie? I think Zach had sex with Katie 1000% you went 1000% well they've I'm definitely

not 1000% I mean did you see the way he was looking at her when Gabby was at the like right after the ceremony but maybe that's

because they didn't have sex and he's like I want to see it with your clothes off eyeballs maybe he was tailoring to her

because they didn't I don't know possibly I think it scared him shitless of the idea that he Could have lost her yeah, and I think that's why she got the first rose I think that's why she's getting the attention because he's like oh my god. I almost lost you. How do I keep you here? Yeah, yeah, but like he tipped the scales really far though and granted

I realized this could have been an editing thing where it's like they did only show us like a few clips of that conversation at The very end where they're like toasting to one another. But it's like Katie saying the toast. Zach's looking at Katie when he's saying like, you know, meeting my family. And like I did feel so uncomfortable for Gabby. I was like, look at her. And she said it. She was there. So obviously that was happening like the whole time.

So, I mean. Katie's winning, right? Regardless of if they had sex. She's the final rose pick. I think it's Katie. Yeah. Yeah. Which makes me really

feel for gabby yeah oh you know the whole episode you know gabby telling you know how she's always feel like the second best or the you know second choice and she's been opening up about you know being cheated on and accepting less than she knew deep down that she deserved oh my god derek pointed out she has this whole thing about being in second yes i thought that she gets the second rose at the rose ceremony yeah he literally gives her the rose second the second rose yeah oh that's crazy yeah that's not entirely zach's call yeah he could have fought for it for sure but it did feel like damage control vibes

because it felt like with Katie because I feel like maybe we should unpack like the moment that he told Katie because it's like it's raining

their feet are in water do you see that like they're up to water in their ankles very wet experience at the rose ceremony no when she

oh yeah on like the glass bottom transparency Zach told Katie he had sex with Gabby In a swamp Yes A pouring rain swamp Like how do I

It's like tell her a place where she can't Possibly escape or leave She has nowhere to go Cause she's stuck in a swamp She's the most physically uncomfortable she will ever be Yeah she's gonna be, yeah. I mean, but like, when do you drop? Well, you don't drop in a swamp. But like, for him,

like, what was the best time to do it? I do think it was smart to give it, like, the intermission to cool down. Where it's like, okay, I'm gonna say this upsetting news. You're gonna have time to process. Chill out. Tells her in the raft. She capsizes it. She's in front of him and he's just behind her hey by

the way hitting him with the paddle he was just that whole canoe situation it was just silent and then finally she was like you seeing anything on the bottom and he was like like it was the weirdest no i will say he's he's gotta one of the nicest guys, but is it me or the conversation's not great? I feel like they're just not good. The banter's not very- There's a lack of follow-up. Yeah. He's not, yeah, like we've discussed this this season.

Yeah, I mean, but I- He seems like an incredibly well-intentioned man. Yeah, yeah. But just not a ton of experience, and he very desperately, you think i think you said early on i think you know as every lead does they want to be liked they want to be well received he wants to play the role really well and it seems like all these producers just like telling him sean look listen to sean like bringing sean low and like the pressure of the one bachelor who's who's who's actually with the

person they picked you know the one the one bachelor and they keep bringing him up and like here is Zach trying to I guess I should I should follow this way you know like and and do it this way and and I can imagine there's a lot of pressure I just think he lacks experience and i think with experience that he's lacking he he lacks the ability to empathize and that makes him less of a conversational conversationalist yeah like it felt like he was reacting to something that wasn't actually happening because like i totally saw i really did empathize where he was coming from where he was like this is going to look horrible it's going to look like i set this one expectation and then didn't follow through and katie's going to feel like she had sex with me under false pretenses if that is what happens like i totally see where he was coming

from in terms of being like i owe everyone full transparency but it's like you're reacting to something that like nobody else is experiencing no i do think i well he i think zach is a high character guy though very high character he very much cares about his character, and he wants to do the right thing, even if the right thing is messy. It's fun to debate whether he should have told them or not have told them. I hate how Gabby was made to feel, and I say that because I don't want to say

how Zach made her feel. It was an impossible situation he was in. I think whoever he's with, they will know that they are with someone who cares about being upfront and honest. And I think that goes a long way. You know, like that goes farther than some of this other stuff.

I don't know if it was you, Susie, or whatever, but you mentioned, or someone said, you know, people have been successful, you know, in Bachelor Nation, which reminded me just how unsuccessful many couples are because, you know, Vanessa and I dated, but we broke up. You and Clayton dated, but you broke up. So many more people who got engaged on the show are not together. My question to you, Susie, is, and I've heard this, that while people get together and they stay together, that the sex that happens during Fantasy Suite Week, that the sex outside of the engagement that happens during Fantasy Suite Week is a big reason why a lot of these relationships don't work out it's not the only thing there's other fights and other arguments but like one major like fighting

point that constantly keeps brought up and maybe it's not just well you fuck them or you had sex but like what does that what that sex meant or you know the confidence that that you know or lack thereof that brings in the relationship did that play a role with your relationship with clayton you know the the everything that went on that week whether it's the i love yous or the sex like is that something you tried to get over and just ultimately realized you couldn't because i think a lot of people do they it's just like hey well it was the show and i guess i have to deal with this because it's the show, but there's a big difference between trying to accept something and being able to accept something. And, and people try to get over things all the time and realize they can't. And I'm just wondering, is, is that something you

dealt with as well? I think to an extent, probably, um, I'm trying to think back exactly, but it certainly didn't play into any of the reason why we broke up. I really do feel like I was able to move past it in our relationship. And I don't think knowing myself, I wouldn't have gotten back into a relationship if I didn't genuinely think that there was a chance that it could work out. And so before we even committed to being with each other, I think that I had moved past like the physical intimacy side of things, the emotional side of things. I remember struggling for a long time thinking like, and to this day, I still kind of think, I'm like, why did you pick me?

Like we aren't compatible. And I think it's more of a testament to the process of the show. You don't get enough quality time with that person. In my mind, I mean, that privacy behind fantasy suites, like in my mind, I was like, I would have to ask every question of the moon. I would want to really know that person on such a deeper level. I would want to know so much about them as a person because that's the only time you get to like truly be real and raw and like

not have to worry about the world judging you but the show doesn't give you enough time to have those kind of conversations it's it's like it feels very surfacy I think for a lot of it and I think that is a harder thing to get through when you're starting a relationship with somebody and you're like we don't you really don't know if you're compatible until you get out of there. So I remember looking back and being like, you are way more compatible with like, well, Rachel, I remember thinking, I was like, why'd you pick me? Like you had somebody that you probably would have been really compatible with and other girls too, that didn't make it quite as far. So you think he would have been more compatible with Rachel? I think looking, I mean, I don't know. I don't know about now, but like more compatible than me. Probably. Are there moments that like having had

the experience of dating in the real world and like getting to learn about him in the way that people traditionally learn about partners? Like has that recontextualized any moments you had on The Bachelor where you're like, in the moment, I thought this was nothing, but now I'm like, oh no, this was actually evidence of like this underlying incompatibility that we uncovered. Yeah. Like 100 percent. Give an example. Well, OK, this is one thing that comes to mind, which I don't even know if I'm really supposed to say it, but there were things that were said or done throughout the process where I was like,

that was so thoughtful, like that was such a thoughtful thing to have happen. And then after the process is over, you find out that that was somebody else's idea. That was somebody who's been listening to me in ITMs for months. That was like, you should make this toast and talk about her character and how you admire her as a human being. And that you, you know, like these things that you're like, I'm like, how does he know me so well? And it's like, no, these are people in his ear. And so it takes away from things where when we come out of there, I'm like, wait, you don't know anything about my character. You don't know anything about who I am. So definitely recontextualize a lot of stuff. I've never forgotten that you mentioned

there was one time where or like that something you alluded to is that in the relationship like he would get dinner and not ask if you wanted anything i think about that maybe once a week every time i pass a chipotle i'm like how and i always text my boyfriend i'm like do you want anything at chipotle because it is like so feels really kind of baseline he called me out on that interview from this podcast he was like he was like at first i was really annoyed at you that you brought that up and then he was like and i complained about it to some of my friends and then they were like you didn't offer to get her chipotle and he was like and then i realized i really messed up yeah you did you know clayton's

the clayton i have and i've never actually met Clayton in person, but I have gotten to talk to him a few times. He seems always to be willing to learn from his mistakes, and we love that. I recently just met him. That's what kept us. Really good dude. Oh, yeah.

Really good dude, yeah. He's an accountable guy. Yeah. He is accountable. He sticks to his word, honest. He genuinely, like he he really tried and he really learned a lot and he really was willing to grow as a partner that's awesome what else what else do we do we have anything else we want to break down here i think it's just like where do

we what do we where do we go from here yeah like an analysis of like where what are we, where do we go from here? Yeah, like an analysis of like, where, what are we walking into the finale with? The ominous champagne cheers when he was like, not making eye contact with Gabby. Yeah. I, again, I think Charity is going to be great.

I don't, I'm sure she'll be fine. I hope Charity gives us some, some Gabby energy. Cause I, this episode, you know, when she was on that date during the day and she has you

know what fuck it i'm just gonna like tell you everything gabby has that like lack of filter that is so like wonderful for tv yeah where once she kind of gets in her head she like doesn't have a choice other than just to express herself yeah and you know that it's not you know like overly thought through and i mean that in a positive way it's just so raw and authentic and she just like shoots from the hip you know i feel like we've gotten to know gabby as a person more than anyone else throughout this season and it just like i really want i want that if zach does pick Katie, that's just the energy I want from, from my lead. I hope charity is able to find that within herself to,

to really just be as authentic and just talks, you know, through her insecurities in real time, you know, and it's not, you know, it's not easy to do. That's a,

it's a skill and a quality that is unique to Gabby. And it's, it's a great characteristic that she has. And it was just really authentic. And I think there's clearly something very charming. I will say, as critical as I have been of Zach, of his lack of empathy, I think he was pretty solid this episode with empathy. We obviously debated whether he should have said something or not. But like with Gabby and with Katie, he seemed to be really considerate of like wanting to make sure they are OK. And he really he really seemed to be wanting to take care of them.

And I thought he was the most empathetic I've seen him all season. So I just want to give him a little little credit for that. I remember with Katie, him having like a false start where like at first when she was reacting and getting upset, like he was kind of like, well, I was trying to like defending himself. And then I remember like the second time, like he was like, I know that this is weird. I know. And it was just like, you're like, oh, my God, this man can validate. This man can listen.

This man can like connect and like really like empathize. And we haven't seen him before. Like, do you think it was enough to redeem him in terms of like when you think of him as a bachelor like how high is your opinion i mean i i i don't like rating him as a bachelor i don't it's not i don't think that's fair you know like i guess what i'm saying it's like we got what we expected you know and that's not i don't even fault him they casted a 26 year old guy with seems like a lack of overall life and dating experience that's not necessarily zach's fault i don't know why the franchise is obsessed with casting the claytons and the zacks of the world

no offense to either of those guys but like every time you do you're gonna get these like boys turning into men on TV. They don't seem to be interested in casting older men with more dating experience and more history of being vulnerable with some scars and some damage when it comes to like dating. And I don't think that's a fault to Zach or the Claytons. I think they have stepped in it and they have certainly opened themselves up for criticism. And certainly we've criticized, but my overall opinion of Zach is he seems like a high character guy who wants to do the right thing. And as far as him as a person in life, we need more people probably like Zach. All the other stuff, maybe Zach's not your guy in terms of whether you would date him or not, like you know whatever you know i i'm

sure he's an all right guy totally andrew and susie like what's your kind of going into the finale like what is your opinion of zach well i just i think he's a really he said i think he's a really good guy um i just feel like it's not inauthentic it's more like he's trying to be it's not inauthentic it's more like he's trying to be this staple that he's seen from former seasons and past seasons and I've never been a lead but like when I went on the Bachelorette I just was like whatever happens happens and I feel like I was my most self and I felt like it went really well for me and then when I got to paradise I tried to be like well this is how it works you talk about these things you do this thing and it was a complete dumpster fire so i feel like when you try to overthink these moments and on the show you're tired you're you know you have long

hours of filming and if you try to be something you're not it's gonna end up badly and it's not gonna come out right because you're trying to like coach yourself through things like if you just let it fly and just be yourself who knows people like you a lot more when you're just being you so I think that's one of the things I just wish that more leads will just stop worrying about like the backlash or this or that you are who you are don't try to paint a different picture than who you are because if you try to be something you're not, it's going to come out. Because you're just physically tired.

You're probably drinking. And then your heart's on the line. So it's tough to kind of change that. I think he's a really good guy. But I feel bad for Gabby. I don't know how he's going to handle it. I don't think he does very well with those situations. I got Gabby leaving on her own.

Oh. Oh, wow. Oh. Mm. Ooh. Oh wow. Yep, yep, that's my prediction. We do get some core shadowing. I don't think so, only because, and I don't know who wins,

I just heard the runner up is still struggling. Yeah. See, the thing is with me though, if I'm always gonna be second, I'm not finna sit there and then watch myself be second. Ain't no way. Yeah, but you never, but you can't quit, Andrew. Yeah, yeah.

You gotta follow through. You're always gonna be second if you keep quitting before you have a chance to be first. That's true. But then they could have the dramatic run. We could recreate Andrew and Katie. I heard the runner up is still processing the breakup and still struggling.

So maybe it'll be a juicy AFR. We'll see. I have a question for y'all. Going back to the double standard of sex. So we have Zach starts the week saying, upfront expectations, I don't want to have sex with anyone. And it's awkward, or we could debate whether he should have done it the way he did, but he sits all these women down and says,

no sex on sex week all right i that's what i want it's what i'm most comfortable with you know ariel ariel does you know says her version of you know we'll see gabby certainly kind of gives a we'll see and successfully i guess you could say uh gets zach to change course now Gabby feels the way she does and we're very quick we're very quick to criticize Zach you know he shouldn't have said anything he shouldn't have said this

Gabby feels a certain way about Zach you know exposing her truth. I think she feels slut shamed kind of like from what she was saying with like the Scarlet A like I think she's just like bro like you're gonna make me look like the girl who, you know, my question is again,

if the roles were reversed, Zach set an expectation of how he felt the most comfortable. I don't want to have Zach sex. I don't know what happened behind closed doors between Zach and Gabby, but I do know that Gabby before going into the fantasy suite, at least told us or strongly implied that she hopes to change Zach's mind. Zach's feeling a certain way about it and he's processing it. And I'm just, you know what I'm saying?

It's just like, what accountability or role does Gabby have to ask herself? Like, I'm upset that Zach, Zach you know shared this with other people but did Gabby respect Zach's wishes I just think we don't know like I've been in situations where guys are like I don't want to have sex and I've been so like absolutely no worries whatever and then it like flipped on its head and they were like that was so hot how you respected my boundary let's do it like totally i don't i don't i don't know what happened i'm just asking i'm this what we do know zach didn't want to gabby did then they go behind closed doors off camera we don't know what was said we don't know what happened but we do know going in what the expectations of what both of them was depending on what happened does that change how you feel

i think it would have and again maybe it happened and they edited they edited it out um but i feel like production screwed gabby because there wasn't a moment where zach was saying here's when it shifted for me here's what happened here's when i changed my mind so then people are jumping into these narratives of what did she do how did she push it past like the line? How did she get it there? And it's like, I think, yeah, if,

if he did have a change of heart, I think it would have been helpful for Gabby's case to, for him to say that and say, I, this is where it shifted for me. This was a me thing. Maybe they'll talk about it AFR. I don't know,

but like, he did say though, like I thought he was very protective of him and Gabby's decision in the sense that he was like, obviously with Katie, he wasn't going to go into like a ton of detail about how glad he is that they did it. But I do think when he was talking about it, at least in interviews, he was like, it was the right thing for us to do. Like he used a lot of like us language that made it feel like it was a very like mutual decision. Sure. I mean, you're laying down and you're kissing all day and you're talking about super intimate things and you've had this attraction for her

for however long like of course like it he changes his mind, you know what I mean? I feel like the only reason why he didn't want to have sex Was because he because of the whole past bachelor thing He didn't want to mess that up for other like he wants to have sex like don't get me wrong like he's like oh i would love to have sex right now but i don't want it to look like this on television and i feel like i just i've been in the yeah i i just from personal experience i just know like um i put i've been put in some awkward situations and i've i've felt pressured i've felt like my wishes weren't respected at times where there was like the i've i've gotten the come on you know yeah

here you're saying yeah yeah i think that's bad i think we need to talk about it more and be like that's bullshit yeah i don't think that happened though i think i think that was very it was very mutual and i think they both respected it but like I said, it's a moment thing. Sometimes when sex happens, it just happens because you guys are in the moment and it wasn't planned. And that's what makes it way more special. Like you had a special moment and we're like, this feels right. And he was like, I am going to go against this and I'm going to do it.

Susie, what do you, you have thoughts? Yeah, I think I see where Andrew's coming from. And if it is truly just to protect his image, then I'm like, that's kind of shady. Like, I don't know. I think that Fantasy Suite Week should be about whatever it needs to be about for the people involved. And if that means sex, then that means sex. But I do think like him coming onto Rachel's season, I remember him saying something like along the lines of what Clayton did is like the worst thing you can do. And he didn't say what that was about, but I remember, I remember hearing that. And I remember it, it seeming like he was

thinking about it from the lens of the people on the other side. So not the leads perspective, but the women's perspective. So hearing that he declared this going into fantasy suite week, I did think it stemmed from that, but also he had the chance to get to know somebody who was on the receiving end of that pain. So I think that to an extent, it could have been like, the intention could have been to consider his future partner and be like, this is the best way to try to start a relationship is by protecting that. And I think also, if you're like, oh, it just happens in the moment, but it's like, okay, but there's so many times that we're tempted when we're in relationships. And it's like,

if you just act on your feelings rather than like your character or, you know, your word with somebody else, then that's just disregarding your partner. So I think, I don't think that Zach was doing it simply for the image. I think that he was considering the women, but I also think it's literally so fine that if that he was intimate with Gabby, but I just think that he could have been maybe more protective of her and not sharing it publicly. And to me, him coming back to her suite to have that conversation that does feel producer driven in my opinion because he would have had that conversation with her in private the night the next morning or whatever before production came if he really felt that way but

it sounds like he went and talked with somebody bounced ideas off of them and then went back to her like if you're gonna well now you need to tell them or yeah yeah it's an amazing point like where did they leave it once they were at the fantasy suite off camera? Like what? Because is that part of the reason that Gabby seems so uncomfortable and upset is like, I'm sure it was in some way addressed between the two of them off camera. It's just a very complicated week, right? Because you got to imagine like if you make it that far, depending on what your position

is on sex in general, right? Like, you know that this week there is a chance to have sex. And if you're, if you think that you have a shot of getting engaged, if you think you might be the person, their pick, their front runner, so to speak, like this is the final step, you know? And so there's a lot of pressure you put on yourself of like and then and if you hear like all these women when zach was like hey i'm not having sex with anyone they i i promise you like a part of them took it as rejection as oh he's not going to pick me because there's no way he's not going to have sex with someone before you know he ends up with you know he gets engaged

right yeah but then why didn't he tell ariel then he did tell ariel that he they had sex well he was already gonna he didn't have sex with her so why and he probably knew he was like that wasn't that wasn't fair if you go and tell katie and like why didn't you tell ariel because then it's like you're only telling them because you want her to still be an option, not because it's the right thing to do to have transparency. Or else there would have been a team meeting if there was not. Getting the conference room. You're right.

He outed himself at that point. We all knew that Ariel was going home. I mean, you go to the rose ceremony, and this was kind of fucked too. Zach's like, I made some mistakes. If you're Gabby she you're like basically telling that she's a mistake like how else could

she receive that whether I don't know what Zach meant by that he maybe would just he just wanted to like say hey I've made mistakes and just be an accountable guy but like whoo choose your words more carefully and at that point Ariel knows she's going home you could see the look at her face like

I don't know what he means by mistake but he didn't make a mistake with me it felt like she was just dragged along you know what I mean and it was like yeah but I mean she also didn't know you know what I'm saying like do you really think

we'll ask her next week but like do you really think that she wishes wishes zach would have came to her hotel room just to tell her but i just feel like right well like watching it back now it's like well you went and told katie and you just like let her left her in the dark yeah but that date was already over and so he was about to have a date with katie yeah but she was the first person he told that he wasn't having sex so the only person i really feel like deserves an apology why does she deserve an apology because he completely like shut it down on her and then went and did but he started the week thinking i'm not gonna have sex and then air

ariel is his first date right and he's like hey i i don't want to have sex this week and i think it's for the sake of the relationship i you know and i i honestly would agree with zach i don't think you need to have sex i knew who i was going to pick that week and if i didn't know who i was going to pick i wasn't going to sleep with anyone because i did not want to have a conversation with the person i just got engaged to and said we just got engaged by the way I had sex with someone else like that's not how I wanted to start a relationship you know but he could have had that conversation like at overnights no but I'm saying so he has that with he has that with Ariel and they don't have sex he has the date

with Gabby they have sex everything changes right at that point I'm guessing Zach knows well I Don't know what's gonna happen with Katie but like Ariel's going home So why does he Need to go back to Ariel's room Just to like let rub it in her How that that he would Have got like that I get

What you're saying but that's a lot that's Clayton Energy that's like going back And like trying to like dig yourself an even deeper hole because even like i really think clayton was trying to do the right thing in his season but every time he tried to do the right thing he just like dropped another grenade in like everyone's hand just by like he was too he just cut it off so like i just think going back to ariel's room would have just been him like rubbing salt on an unnecessary room she didn't know he had sex with Gabby at that point she doesn't need to know

you know like well she's gonna find out sure and that's like I'm like it's gonna come to light they're all gonna find out her watching with her girlfriends like wait what but yeah in the moment where Zach was having a date with Ariel he was true to his word he yeah he was true to his word.

He was upfront about his expectations and they followed through. And he ended up not having sex with someone he didn't want to have sex with. I don't think he owes her an apology for not having sex with her. But no, but like the way he went about and telling Katie, though, like, then why tell Katie? Because he's now about to go on a date with Katie. And instead, and he was planning on sitting down with Katie and saying, I'm gonna have sex this week I didn't have sex with the other two and so just you know I'm not gonna have sex with you but instead he did have sex with Gabby he couldn't have the same conversation with Katie that he had with Ariel and Gabby so instead of having that conversation he wanted to be honest with with Katie and so he gave Gabby the heads up that he

was gonna tell Katie why did Ariel need to know this I just feel like she was in it like the same way, you know, going through the same process and, you know, she came in the same expectations and all the other women is, oh, we know what happens this week or it could happen. But to feel like it just shut down, I would feel like that's like a, that'd be just a shot to my like pride a little bit, pride and ego. I'm sure it is. But only he owes her an apology for her ego. Imagine if Zach walks in and says, hey, by the

way, turns out I am going to have sex this week. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of how it would happen. And you're going home. Well, why don't you just be like, hey, I don't think it's you. And then why don't he just break up with her then? That's a good point. That was not his choice.

But he has been on this season. He's been very big on the second I don't feel chemistry, i break up with them and i do think that that would have been a valid approach why bring it to the rose ceremony then like he could have done that but like that probably wasn't in that probably wasn't an option for him right it will be interesting to see what she has to say at afr yeah the pride and ego i'm like that but none of that should really come into play when it comes to like finding your person I feel like yeah you might be hurt that somebody didn't want to sleep with you but like that if he's trying to make decisions on character and if he really felt like he could see a future with um Gabby but he was like I just don't see a future with Ariel Ariel

then I don't know I don't think he owes her anything. If at that point he had made his decision, he was like, okay, it's definitely not Ariel, but these other two women I want to move forward with. I'm so confused. I need to, you know, be upfront, honest with them. It's like, that's about open communication in a relationship, the relationship with Ariel's ending. Like, and I think, yeah, maybe that it just wasn't in the cards for him to go talk with her beforehand, but I just, yeah, I think it would be weird to be like, hey, I'm breaking up with you and I slept with somebody else. Or he could have just broke up with her if he knew it wasn't her. Yeah.

Like, why bring her to the Rose? Yeah, but. Because it's The Bachelor. I mean, sometimes you don't have a choice. Matt James did that. Every season's different. And I'm just telling you, I'm all certain it wasn't an option for him. Okay, gotcha.

Wait, but we haven't even talked about the fact that when he's telling Gabby that he's going to be sharing that with Katie, he hits her with the, I'm falling for you and Gabby hits him with the, thank you for sharing that. Thank you.

I did saw that. That was iconic. I feel like that was Bachelor history. Like the first time a lead has ever said that and a contestant has been like, thank you for sharing. No, Gabby is awesome. I love that. She's great. I love Gabby gabby yeah i think she has every right to be upset and she does she

does real main character energy yeah yeah yeah she's like the lead in a rom-com that's like quirky and it's like why isn't it working out for me and it's like yeah you want to root for her yeah yeah i do yeah i think she has every reason to be upset, but I am very interested. And I don't know if we'll ever know of how, yeah, what changed, how they went from no sex to having sex. And I think it's a very complicated and nuanced conversation. And I think it's one that kind of goes outside the conversation of The Bachelor to, you know, gender roles, especially in heterosexual

relationships, especially when it comes to upfront expectations of, Hey, I don't want to have sex tonight. Like, especially in the past couple of years, there's been a lot of conversations about consent and what that means and coercion and things like that. And we all understand, you know, when a woman says, hey, sex is off the table tonight, that that's where the conversation needs to end. There shouldn't be any, come on, like, come on, you know, like that should not happen. It also should be both ways. And I'm just really curious.

And I don't think from a society we operate that way. We might say it, but a society we operate that way we might say it but it does not go that way like uh i think when it comes to pressure and sex like i think it is very much accepted when it's the other way around i don't think we have an issue with pressuring men into having sex as a society and then then also on top of that, throw that people kind of, I know it's not a game show, but you win or lose. There's almost the expectation,

the pressures of the show on top of the systematic pressures. It just is like a volcano. Yeah, totally. And I think, yeah, I think, I think fantasy suite week and sex when sex on the table food through

personal experiences on this show is very complicated and fucked up in a lot of ways that's never discussed yeah yeah okay so then should we notion to move to uh two people fantasy suites not three interesting oh we didn't even point out that was this the first season in a long time that they no longer had the final three living in the same house were you ladies living in the same house at the time because they no longer had the final three living in the same house were you ladies living in the same house at the time because they started doing that on peter's season and they've been doing it ever since and like again a call back to a traditional bachelor they very much didn't do that the women are living in their own suites they're not engaging with each other they're not

swapping stories yeah um they usually do that, like come together. I miss that. I want them, I like that they did that. I think it's fucked up, but it's also great TV. It is, yeah, I hear you. That's why we watch. But they don't do that anymore. Yeah, no, yeah, they, well, I don't know if it's,

well, I don't know if I can even say this, but they've definitely brought us together to have conversations from on clayton season but i don't know if they actually let people even truly live together because then you can say so much off camera so everyone's very separated still i feel even if you're like living but you had oh so you guys but you you had access to one another during the fantasy suite with other around yeah yeah yeah you had on camera access to each other and they don't do that now yeah right they don't swap stories basically on camera they don't swap stories but

they swap and spit yeah or they just didn't show it which could be too it seemed no it seemed like they were definitely going back to old school bachelor i mean that's been clear this entire season of trying to go back to their kind of roots so to speak i wonder if katie having had that overnight at the museum one-on-one was that all relevant i'm sure not because it just feels like so much has happened since then but they did have that moment where she had to like walk of shame it. And so I wonder if there's like a little bit of. Do we think they did anything on museum night?

I don't. I don't even think they spent the night together. Yeah, I don't think so either. But if they did, that changes a lot. If they did, they definitely touched some privates. Privates were touched if they did. Yeah, for sure. But I don't think they did all right well uh do we all think katie wins yeah yeah i've been saying that i used to think it was gabby but after the shopping date we were thrown by the shopping date yeah and i also just have a

hard time believe i you know and this is maybe me projecting but i just have a hard time believing that any lead at this point in the season really doesn't know who they're gonna pick we saw that clip of him saying i'm torn do we believe that yeah well i kind of do i believe he's very confused yeah yeah he does seem like he really cares for these two yeah for sure and in a different way than everyone else but i just you know i if assuming he picks katie watching him comfort gabby and using the language that he uses is going to feel really fucked up to gabby if he leaves her at the altar so to speak because he really you know when she's talking about feeling second like second choice and second best he said all the right things and he reassured her and validated her and connected with her

and that is going to fuck up her ability to trust i mean that's i really feel if he doesn't pick gabby gabby is going to be one of the few runner-ups, and there's not many, that this experience really fucks them up in their ability to trust, and they're going to have some emotional PTSD, and it's going to be hard for them to fall in love in the future because they fell in love on The Bachelor. Did it fuck you up a little bit?

For sure. Like first time? Both times. More the first time but yeah i i was more aware of how the environment can play a role on my emotions in the second time so while i felt real feelings i was i was more just i was more self-aware of of of my feelings and i didn't fully like give myself to those feelings, so to speak. It was like, I feel this, but who knows how I'm going to feel outside.

And in the first season, I didn't have that type of mindset. Well, final thoughts. I think we do have to give Zach credit for being a man of character. I think that's important. Like we can be tough on him. And this was actually so great. I was texting Andrew last day. I was like, this is juicy. It was like, I think that's important. Like we can be tough on him. And this was actually so great. I was texting Andrew last day. I was like, this is juicy.

It was like, it was really getting good. So like, thank you for great entertainment and television. We hope you're doing well. And we 100% respect and see that you are a man of character. So I feel like we should say that. And I hope whoever ends up with them, I hope they're happy. I hope whoever doesn't end up with them. I hope they're happy. I hope whoever doesn't end up with them, I hope they're on paradise or they're enjoying their life and they're all

good, but it was entertaining. So I'm excited to see how this ends. I think Susie speaks for all of us. That was beautiful. Yeah. But feel free, Andrew, to add anything. No, I agree. Like being the lead, like that's, there's no way to win in any you know what i mean i feel like

i feel like it's it sucks because you're putting everyone's you know but also your interests on the line so i know it's really hard to communicate and i think he's doing the best he can i think all you have to do is give him grace i want everyone to give him grace of that uh like like susie said he's a good um good man of character we we all see that i'm excited to see the future for all i thought this was a great casting this whole show was really good especially the bottom five that they've been really good um so you know i'm looking i'm looking forward to seeing most of them on tv more so zach's an inexperienced man of character okay but to do okay sorry to do the thing is there anybody who if you saw them and they were single you guys were out

and about you would maybe shoot your shot with i'm not gonna name names but i think there's a lot of have you spoken with any of the women from zach's season uh yeah but not like uh not like we're not no um who are you not talking with come on that's just back to you in No, no, no, no. Ariel. I'm not talking to any. I thought it was Ariel, right? Ariel?

I don't know. I don't know. You and Vanessa were engaged and she didn't know how to pronounce your last name. I hope Ariel's not offended. It's like an Anna Anna situation. No, she'll clear it up. Like Rihanna is how you say her name, not Rihanna. Yeah. Really? It's Rihanna? It's Rihanna it up. Like Rihanna is how you say her name, not Rihanna. Yeah.

Really? I think it's that wrong. Rihanna. It's Rihanna? It's Rihanna. The fuck? Rihanna. Yeah.

Oh, did not know that. Andrew, you will be hosting Bachelor Live. Yeah. You want to tell the audience a little bit about that and give them a little plug so they can come support you?

Yeah, we're doing Bachelor Live on stage right now. Doing it in Arizona, so it's in one location. So if you have like a bachelorette theme party that you want to come and drop by and kind of just see, you know, Bachelor up close and front and personal. And we'll have Rodney be a Bachelor, so you get to vie for his heart a little bit. It's a really fun thing. You know, we go through all the segments of like a regular show.

You go on group dates. You have a date. We'll do like a lip sync battle. It's really fun. We'll get to hometowns. We'll also get to fantasy suites. There's like a little bit of a. Any fucking going on Bachelor Live? No, no, but we are in Scottsdale.

So you never know. I'm just kidding. After the show. No, I'm kidding. Not on stage. None of that. It's not like, it's not like real. It's just real good fun.

Where can people get tickets if they want to show up? BachelorLiveOnStage.com. BachelorLiveOnStage.com. And anyone can be a contestant, by the way. So I've had a couple moms, pregnant ladies win. Last year on the tour. You do not have to be single. No, you don't have to be single.

Come have fun. It doesn't matter. There's no hatred. You do not have to be there for the right reasons you just have to be there for fun exactly 1000 yeah all right suzy uh anything you want to plug yeah just the blog suzy was like.com like every week i got something coming on videos writing you know fun stuff and i'm gonna be doing a lot more youtube so check me out guys aren't you booking weddings through 2024 yeah if you're if you're engaged or if you have someone engaged yeah thank you um

hire me to film your wedding love that it'll be fun oh i'll come crash and they find you suzy all right if they want to book you to phone me you can find me on suzywaslike.com there's like an inquiry form if you go to media i've got a little portfolio or you can email me on suzywaslike.com there's like an inquiry form if you go to media I've got a little portfolio or you can email me at suzyevansmedia.com or at gmail.com it's suzyislike suzywaslike

s-u-s-i-e w-a-s-l-i-k-e dot com yes and next week for the finale we have very funny comedian you've probably seen her tick tocks Ashley Gavin epic stand up amazing

jokes and she's going to be bringing the heat she'll be recapping the finale with us which is going to get dropping next Thursday on the normal going deeper slot and then Ariel Ariel we'll find out and give her a big apology either way find out about her her a big apology either way. Find out about her experience, her thoughts on Fantasy Suite Week.

Does she have regrets? You know, obviously, the season's not over yet. I'm sure a lot will happen at AFR. At least we hope a lot happens. And Ariel will be coming straight from AFR to our studio to talk with us. And we're excited about that. And that will be dropping ASAP on Tuesday morning. You know, we're going to be recording really late on Monday.

So as soon as it's ready, it will get up. And that will be going deeper. That will be on Tuesday. Again, recap on Thursday. Anything I'm missing? No, just Better Date Than Never and Vibes. Yeah, Better Date Than Never, 9 p.m. on Thursday live. Go check out Vibe Files Plus for all the amazing bonus content

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we have the freshest tomatoes all I'm saying tomato fresh verified fresh tomato thanks for listening guys see you with Rachel Bilson bye you