The Viall Files - E560 Going Deeper with Ariel Frenkel

Episode Date: March 28, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper Edition! Today we are joined by Ariel Frenkel to talk about her time on this season of The Bachelor. What happened during her Fantasy Suite with Zach, did she know she was heading home, and what else did she wish Zach said at After the Final Rose? We ask all of the hard hitting questions that Bachelor Nation has been wanting to know - including the drama in the house, how she handled their break up, and if she was ready to become the next Mrs. Shallcross.  “We’re not having a conversation, it’s a monologue.” Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://www.viallfiles.supportingcast.com  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/ To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: IQ Bar - Now get twenty percent off all IQBar products, plus get FREE shipping. To get your twenty percent off, just text FILES to 64-000. Canva - Collaborate with Canva for Teams! Right now, you can get a FREE 45-day extended trial when you go to canva.me/viall  Drizly - Drizly is the most convenient way to buy beer, wine and spirits, with delivery to your doorstep in under 60 minutes. Download the Drizly app or go to https://www.Drizly.com Intimissimi - There is a new Italian lingerie brand made with gorgeous fabrics, colorful silks and delicate lace. https://www.intimissimi.com/jlo Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @afrenkel1 @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome back to another exciting and special episode of the vile files going deeper edition afr af afr if i were afr style with sound irish yeah uh with our very special guest we now know the correct pronunciation and now you're scared because it's so subtle do it do what feels intuitive area you got this yeah area with an l l you're not standing up you're enunciate at the end yeah it's like a question it's not ariel it's not ariel it's ariel no no what ariel ariel see i got my head you did you got it right the first time ariel ariel the first time uh welcome thank you how are you? I'm good. How's your heart? My heart is there.

It's existing. Okay. Well, we are very excited to have you. We are glad that you took the time to come with us. Since we're not going to do a big intro, we have some quick housekeeping notes to get to. So please indulge us. I will. As everyone now knows, since we've been talking about it this is our Going Deeper episode.

Our recap. It's coming on Thursday. It has the hysterical comedian Ashley Gavin is going to be with us to recap the finale. She's a big Bachelor fan. She's also

if you are on lesbian comedy TikTok you certainly know this woman even if you're not you might know this woman. She's phenomenal. So some hot takes coming on Thursday for you. Okay.

All right. And then we have Katie Maloney next week on uh what will now be freestyle on tuesday uh anything else that we want to get to before we jump right in love is blind is happening we're gonna be doing right yeah so uh we're watching love is blind we have bachelor producers in the studio i feel bad do you feel like we're cheating on them we're cheating on you guys um but we're loving season four it's going great uh we will get into a lot of love is blind like recapping next week on uh going deeper next thursday with sweet phoebe robinson yeah phoebe robinson will be with us if you are dying to really break down uh the first batch of episodes i think it's episode 1 through 5,

we will be breaking that down behind Vile Files Plus, which if you haven't joined yet, you're missing out. It's rated super fresh, whatever. Certified fresh. And you have a free trial, so check it out if you're dying for some real deep dive Love is Blind

commentary, but we will definitely on the vile files just be covering and talking about the whole season in general next Thursday but it's bachelor week

so we have another episode of better day than never live on Thursday we're talking about getting caught while having sex there you go

that is the theme do you have any stories about that maybe that's just start an interview when have you been caught fucking I don't get caught but I've walked in on people you've walked in on people yeah many times okay including my parents so you've caught including your parents i didn't see anything

tragic yeah oh i feel like everyone's had a moment like that yeah i just knew something was going on yeah i actually see it you hear a rustling have you i haven't really yeah and you would think which is shocking considering your parents are doing that a lot after you have 10 siblings so here we are anyway how are you i'm doing good how is your heart you're doing fine you're i think getting that kind of closure and being able to see zach again being able to it's been six months since we officially broke up, since everything happened.

Okay, wow. So that gives me a lot of time to process. And I think the final closing piece was seeing him again now and being able to articulate what I was feeling. Okay. So watching it back,

knowing that I wasn't given the full piece of information, I think it was important for me to relay that versus really being still in pain over the relationship. Okay. We have a lot to discuss that versus really being still in pain over the relationship. Okay. We have a lot to discuss. We want to get in with you.

Certainly more about your experience and obviously the end of the season before we get to that. But I think the audience would love to just kind of get to know a little bit about you and people love the type of question. I don't know if you've answered this in other interviews, but how did someone like yourself end up on the show? How familiar were you with the show and just kind of what's your origin story when it comes to Bachelor Nation? I feel like I fell into a pothole in New York and just ended up on the show. Half the time,

I feel like my face is always disassociative, just like facing out on the season, like what's going on? I'm scared. My friends applied me. I feel like I was complaining a lot about dating, a lot about changing my environment, but didn't really know how to do that. And my friends just did it kind of behind my back. So I didn't anticipate that. And I actually got a call about the show, thinking it was a call from someone else

because of an Italian last name. So I thought I had got this special reservation, this Italian restaurant, but really it was just a producer. Okay. I had a similar experience as well. Really? i was in san francisco at work for a work like conference and they're like this is a so-and-so from abc the bachelor are you still interested in coming on the show i'm like i have no idea what you're talking about but like sounds cool uh so you

got the call from the show and were you like excited a little nervous, hesitant? What were your thoughts? And how familiar were you with the show in general? Were you a big fan or a casual watcher? You knew nothing about it. I thought it was a prank, because my friends and I like to prank call a lot, and we like to mess with each other. I was familiar with the show from a few years ago.

I didn't really watch it actively on the past few seasons, but I kind of dipped in and out of different seasons But really hadn't known much about it at all and didn't really try to watch it before I went into the show and when you kind of went through the casting process, were you what was their mindset more like We'll see what this is all about or if they want me i'm in How how did you kind of go about your decision making process to decide to go on once you got the call? I was really hesitant. I honestly was not treating it seriously and I didn't really think I was going to do it at all so

The way it was the way it worked was every two weeks. I would hear from someone So it's almost like the perfect dating situation, right? You forget about someone they tap it in two weeks. Then you're like, oh So a situation ship with casting I kind of did honestly I had a full situationship with casting they i thought they ghosted me for a period of time they kept coming back for more um and they i was kind of in between what i was doing professionally as well so i was really heavily applying to jobs at the time and they kept calling me in the right amount of time and then by around september they officially called me and told me that i was casted for it so i had a long conversation with my family with my my friends my family did not want me to do it um my friends were encouraging me to okay and then the friends won i had yeah well i had a full sit

down with my family which i've spoken about where as you know my dad thought that i was going to walk into multiple orgies and told me not to do anything in relationship with the show because he'd seen it before and he knows what goes on behind the scenes. So he ended up being right, which, I mean, my dad's always right. There you go. A lot of people often want to know, at what point did you realize Zach was The Bachelor? What were your initial thoughts and did that have any impact on your decision to go on the show or not? I knew before going in. I really didn't want to go in without knowing who it was. And once I found out it was him, I was surprised, but I was excited to kind of get to

know him more because I feel like in the previous season, we really didn't get a picture of his entire personality. Okay. Is Zach someone who, um, did you think was kind of in line with the type of guy you usually date? No, definitely not. No. Okay. Personality wise. Eventually when I got to know him, he reminded me of people that I dated when I was younger and in college. Interesting. But not at all in terms of the people that I've been dating recently. And did you find that to be enjoyable? You know, I think as, you know, as daters, we're creatures of habit and we have a hard time getting out of our comfort zone. So you enjoyed that experience? With dating, I'm actually not a creature of habit at all. I don't

really have a type. I don't really, I like to go on a lot of dates to get to know people versus really considering it dating. So I find every dinner, not really to be a date, but to be like, oh, this could be interesting. And it's a way to test yourself to test what your preferences are and you can always be friends with someone after it doesn't have to be romantic so with zach it kind of reminded me of people that i dated in college because i feel like i was attracting different types of men before i had like my big breakups and big relationships post-college and i we you know you talked about your frustration which loved on the show really um i know that the show loves a a traumatic story and you know a very emotional one-on-one date but i really appreciated uh your one-on-one with zach where it was just kind of very real like hey

listen like dating sucks it's hard i'm sick of being single it wasn't some big kind of sob story but it was really just kind of uh well honest and real and just it was one of the more relatable one-on-ones i thought of the season and quite honestly in a while because you're so used to hearing these tragic stories rather than just a hey listen this is fucking hard and it sucks i really appreciated that but i don't think we really got into a lot of your dating history. What was your kind of experience? We talk a lot about just heartbreak and getting over people. Did you have many defining relationships prior to this experience on The Bachelor that kind of shaped, you know, whether it was just a very difficult experience or overall positive experience?

But like our heartbreaks can often kind of change how we see things going forward. And what's your kind of history when it comes to that, that maybe led to you going on The Bachelor? I'd been in four serious relationships, two in college and then two after. My probably most serious relationship was right after college. And it was kind of the relationship that defined the rest rest of my life and it was one of the best relationships I'd been in but it was also the breakup was the worst breakup I'd ever had so the two really oppose each other and I feel like the way he handled the breakup the way he handled everything contradicted the entire person I got to know so that kind of defined how I dated after that because I really needed to protect myself after how I was pretty

naive. I was 21 and I really was so open when we first got to know each other. I was so honestly capable of falling in love, letting love in and so on. And I feel like after our breakup, I just completely was, I wasn't done with dating because I continued to date, but I was kind of done with letting any person in. Very guarded. Super guarded. Why did that relationship end and what was it about it that made it such a difficult breakup? It ended because there was a misunderstanding and he accused me of things that didn't actually happen. And I really suffered with that because I felt like he just complete.

And I really suffered with that because I felt like he just complete, it was the most traumatic, like almost movie type of breakup where he confronted me. He left at the time I was living in LA. He left LA and he just never looked back and actually completely blocked me on all fronts. He blocked me on his phone. He wouldn't communicate with me for months. We'd been together for two years and had a really solidified relationship. And then completely walked out on it so you got ghosted i hate using that kind of terminology i wouldn't say it was ghosted because he still communicated in and out but he would only communicate with me if i admitted to things that didn't happen basically long story short i i kissed someone before we were boyfriend and girlfriend and he accused me of like infidelity and all these things so like two years later he caught wind that you kind of dated someone before we were boyfriend and girlfriend. And he accused me of like infidelity and all these things. So like two years later,

he caught wind that you kind of dated someone before you dated. Not dated, that I kissed someone before we were boyfriend and girlfriend. So like while we're in the phase of like getting to know each other and the relationship moved really quickly. Sure. And he accused me of that and called me a cheater and all these names that I'd never had a guy like speak to me in that way or be accused of anything of that nature. So he kind of, I think, used that as an excuse to get out of the relationship, but really dragged me through the mud about it.

And since I was so, at the time I was pretty young and naive, that kind of allowed him to call me certain names and started to believe them. So I felt I had like a really low identity and self-worth after that relationship because he built me up so much while we were dating. He showed me like the first levels of like integrity in a relationship. He really showed me like security. I never felt like jealous or uncomfortable with him from day one. He always made me feel like such a priority. And he was he was he was older, not older, older. He was like my age now. So I was really shell shocked by being accused of those things when I genuinely didn't think that was cheating.

Sure. So you closed off a bit. Once you started to heal from that breakup, what were some things that you felt like you learned about yourself and relationships in general, as well as things that you wanted for yourself in relationships going forward? I learned that no matter what someone says to you or how they treat you and what their idea of you is, you have to know who you are. And I think I didn't know who I was when I was 21 to even leading up until the show almost. I think it took the pandemic to really get to know myself and actually have to be disconnected from reality for a period of time

to really look inwards. So I feel like if you actually know yourself, you know what you want in a partner and you know how to be a partner. So I think for a long time, I was trying to accommodate other people in relationships and trying to accommodate their ideas. Even if I was accused of something, I'd be like, yes, you're right. Because I was trying to fulfill the relationship and fulfill that person versus knowing who I am, knowing what I always knew what I would stand for. And I would never like allow certain things and dynamics in a relationship based on how my parents are. But so I had like a very high standard for how I would date, but I didn't have a high standard like for myself as a person. And so kind of after the pandemic in, I guess, going into this, you've,

things kind of shifted for you and what made you feel like you were ready to take on this kind of crazy emotional torture? I mean, dating in New York is a crazy emotional torture. We hear that a lot, yeah. Usually, I'm probably dating someone that is also dating 30 other women. At least Zach was transparent about it,

you know? I gotta say, I really, really appreciated, not to jump ahead, tonight with with uh when i was with jesse or with zach but are you the first person and all the bachelor historians out there please let us know but you called this experience an open relationship which i have i don't remember someone referring to the show as that since I've been involved with the show. And I really appreciated it, you know, you kind of naming and kind of giving it a very kind of 2023 kind of review of what this experience is. And that is very much a very open kind of polyamorous

type of environment. And what made you say that and yeah because i just really loved you calling it that and i feel like going forward you'll change the conversations with how people refer to the show i think it's important to be we're in a reality tv show but it's important to be as real as you can be so i think it's important to call things out like we are in an open relationship i wanted to make sure that i said that actually, because I committed to an open relationship. So the issue of what happened wasn't the fact that the person was open, it was the dishonesty. So I think the only way to survive these things is to be honest with yourself and your partner and to be open because you're in an open relationship. So if someone sleeps with

someone else or something happens, that's not really downgrading our relationship. That's you exploring others that we've committed to. So I wanted to make it clear that my issue is the fact that I was never told that, not the issue of what happened. And that also should be private. So he went outside of when you're in an open relationship, the rules are set in place. And if the parameters change for that relationship, your partner needs to know. Because if you're already open, that's difficult in itself. So honesty is everything versus monogamy

in that kind of a situation. Yeah, totally. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar. Now get 20% off every IQ Bar product, plus free shipping when you text F-I-L-E-S, that's files, to 64,000. We know a lot of you are busy out there. You're probably listening to the show, maybe walking to work or commuting on the go.

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applying for this job. And not only is Canva such a great tool, but Canva for Teams, I feel like has transformed this office. We're now working in office. It's Amanda, myself, Derek. We need to be collaborative. We want to be creative as a team. We don't want things to be lost in translation. We don't want to do work twice. And I feel like Canva for Teams has made it just an effortless process for everyone to be on the same page. Something that I really appreciate, like a feature, is they have,

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presentations, and websites. The endless templates and premium fonts, photos, graphics, and videos add personality and edge to my Teams content. Collaborate with Canva for Teams right now. You can get a free 45-day extended trial when you go to canva.me slash V-I-A-L-L. That is C-A-N-V-A dot M-E slash V-I-A-L-L for a free 45-day extended trial. Canva.me slash V-I-A-L-L. Do I want to go back in sequence or do we want to just dive in? I think we should dive in. You want to just dive in?

We're here. We're here. Okay. Do what feels right. So I guess if you want to start with that we're here we're here okay it feels right so i guess if you want to start with that whole week we'll just do that and then we'll go back and ask let's talk about it gets no questions zach i guess in his past two seasons of being the bachelorette and the bachelor has now kind of he's become fairly infamous for his fantasy suite week experiences

with rachel it's still kind of talked about in bachelor nation circles of you know what happened behind closed doors there's still a lot of unanswered questions of like what changed obviously uh we all know what happened this season with you know all three of you and zach you know sex week and zach you know kind of just announcing for everyone that sex wasn't going to happen. If you're willing, we'd love for you to just, and since you had a Fantasy Week experience with Zach, I'd love for you to just kind of take us in

to the Fantasy Suite, so to speak. It's a very crazy experience, as you know. You go from being on the show for weeks and you get very comfortable with cameras and producers and it's a weird environment at first but that you quickly acclimate to and then all of a sudden you're down to the final three and you have this date like a normal one-on-one as you know and then it gets late and then you know it's going to happen and it's just kind of this weird holy shit we're. And that's a really nutty feeling in that world.

And I'm curious, like, how did that start? Like, what was, who spoke first? And what did Zach, if anything, you know, how did that conversation go? And what did he say, if anything, to kind of start the vibe of the rest of the evening? He spoke first. Okay. He kind of set the precedent for the whole week and the whole evening, which is also what I had a problem with because throughout the entirety of our relationship,

he's making me feel like an individual. So the difficulty of dating someone that's dating 30 other people is to feel like an individual. And he made such a point of making me feel that way on our one-on-one in different moments. I never felt like there was anything but us, obviously knowing there were other people in the mix. But when it was us two, it wasn't about anyone else's relationship. And in doing so, in saying, for this week, I'm not going to sleep with anyone. I'm not going to do those types of things. And starting the full conversation at dinner off that way, I just didn't appreciate that we're now more in a collective situation in how we approach our own relationship. And also, we're not having a conversation. It's a monologue,

not a dialogue. So I had the same intentions as Zach that week. I personally was not ready for intimacy in that setting. And I felt like if I'm in an open relationship and I know the other person could be with someone else the next night, they're entitled to do that in my opinion. It's not for me to say yes or no, but I'm personally not going to do that in my own like experiences. So I really didn't like that he started the entire date off that way. And he started the whole night off like predicated on sex versus us having a private conversation, being off camera, enjoying that time, seeing even what happened. I don't like when you set a standard for how a night should go or a

date should go. I think you set yourself at a deficit that way. Sure. Yeah, totally. So when the camera producers leave, cameras go, how did he start off that conversation? Now that you guys are alone, you have the entire night to to yourselves and he kind of had this probably surprisingly an awkward conversation with you like what were what were the what was that first conversation like between the two of you well because we had that whole conversation on camera we really started everything in the fantasy suite like very i hate calling it that let's call it overnight fantasy suite is very antiquated and creepy um i feel like we started just talking we talked about his past experiences we talked about things that he had issues with in previous overnights we talked about basically everything under the sun until the sun went up so that's what that

whole date was about for us we didn't really like talk about sex or have to talk about anything of that nature because this is the only time we're off camera to get to know each other before a potential engagement so i want to maximize that time on actually speaking about things that we've endured that we haven't gotten to on these short dates did you get any insight between what happened did you learn about zach uh during overnights a lot i feel like we honestly cackled a lot we had so many laughs and it was really nice to talk to someone about the entire experience because there's so many moments right you have 30 minutes to talk to someone you have to tell them about who you are as a person your entire life. Initially, it's actually 15 minutes, then it gets to 30, then 45. You have such limited time. So I feel like I really wanted to, for once, not have to say everything about myself

in a short period, but actually talk about the experience, how he was feeling, what's going on with him, what this whole crazy process feels like off camera, and have a more... Obviously, we had the most authentic conversations on camera, but when you're off camera, it just feels more lighthearted. Like you can kind of breathe in a way, even if you're always authentically being yourself, it's nice to talk about how weird everything is

and address kind of how strange this process is to get to know someone. Was there any surprising moments? Did you guys actually sleep or did you just talk through the night? We talked through the whole night. Talked through the whole night. We actually did not sleep at all.

We fell asleep in the last probably like 10 minutes. Okay. Oh, okay, sure. Yeah. And then the next day, how was that feeling? For example, Gabby tonight was very clear that she at some point felt a shift and accused Zach of knowing long before he told uh gabby how did you feel the next day were you feeling confident were you feeling you know did

you did you were you aware of how strong his connections were with gabby and katie and yeah kind of where did you kind of yeah how did you see yourself down to final three did you kind of, yeah, how did you see yourself down to final three? Did you feel like the second runner up then or where were you? It's funny because throughout the entire experience, you're always surrounded by the women. This was the only time we were actually separated. Like starting from hometowns onwards, you're separate. So I forgot that the other women kind of existed in this weird way. I knew he was going on to his next

date and that was happening, but that awareness was kind of superseded with our dynamic. So beforehand, I always felt like I was aware of what was happening, how relationships were progressing because people in the house talk. You hear about every date after it happens. This is the first time I was alone. So all I could think about was our date versus what could possibly be happening with Gabby and Katie as much because I felt like we did have such a great night we did have such a great time there there wasn't this like pressure for intimacy which I wish again we had a conversation about but that it was nice for me personally to have that off the table so we could talk and I feel like I just forgot that he really had other strong relationships. And then when I was standing

up there at the rose ceremony, it kind of all came back to me because I remembered the women. I remembered what I'm even doing. You're so caught up in the moment and caught up in the situation that you forget the whole structure of what you're in because you have such a nice time with someone. You have such an amazing night. You have such an amazing experience. And I was also the first date. And then I had the whole week in Thailandailand to think about us not to think about the other women so standing up there i it all came to me and the way he like approached the rose ceremony and the way he was speaking that is the time i really had the awareness of the other women and that something transpired versus like being so elated and excited with our relationship progressing. Did you, when he, at the rose ceremony, talked about mistakes were made,

what was going on in your head? I mean, it's that meme of someone doing meth. Yeah. E equals MC squared. Did you think he potentially had sex with one of the other women? Yeah. I feel like the female intuition is so strong. It's potent.

Sure. So it's palpable. i i just knew something like that happened i knew it had nothing to do with me he also wasn't making eye contact and he wouldn't look at me for the first rose ceremony i'd ever experienced except for maybe in the beginning um where there was just very minimal eye contact if any at all and i knew between that and between the his words and what he exactly said that something had happened where he went against his word or went against his, he said head and heart and used all this terminology. So I felt like something had happened where he'd gone against either something that he said about how he was starting the week or some sort of bigger drama happened that I couldn't pinpoint. But I knew something happened between the women that would create a really dramatic situation. And did you suspect that at that point you might be going home or were you still unsure? I knew, I knew when he wouldn't look at me. And then when he gave that speech that I was most likely going home. How, how did, seemed sad but you didn't seem like devastated i remember

when i was my first experience i was fairly heartbroken but i also remember right before i got heartbroken i was i had this kind of like maybe this is for the best i knew i had these crazy strong feelings but i was self-aware enough to know that like you know the environment i was in might be playing a role and so so it was like, I just was, I knew that when I left that environment, my feelings could change. Like, what was your kind of mindset versus just, you know, I'm going to go for it.

I'm just going to immerse myself in this kind of pressure cooker of an environment that's designed to maximize the most amount of feelings versus, and you seem like a very level-headed, thoughtful person who's had some experiences with heartbreak. So what was your ability to think about the outside world all while falling in love in this kind of crazy environment? You forget about the outside world and it's not the environment that simulates the relationship. It's the fact that you just don't have any distractions. You just

have your gut to focus on. So my gut was saying such good things versus being clouded by anything else. Like you don't have your friends, you don't have your family, you don't have a phone, so you can't vent to anyone. And it's funny, the environment actually let me really be myself versus dating experiences I'd had. So I didn't feel like I was sucked into the romantic elements of it because our dates were pretty like funny and pretty real. They weren't like us on some sort of like unreal situation that you would never picture yourself in. Like going to the night market was so beautiful and we were in such beautiful environments. But I could see myself doing that, going to a night market, eating food,

doing things like that. Even the nudist date was very funny and comical. So I felt like we could have a laugh. I feel like our dates tested each other versus creating this like fake environment and fake person in front of me in a way. So I feel like what hit me when I was saying goodbye was I was really shocked. When I'm shocked, I don't quickly cry or do anything like that. I'm a very actually emotional person, which I feel like people don't understand. So my friends laugh at this at home. But I also don't really believe in saying what you are. You just believe in being it. But I cried when I got to my hotel room because I realized what had happened. when you're being broken up with and when I, whenever I've been broken up with and it hasn't, it's been pretty equitable twice and twice. But whenever I've been broken up with, I don't get emotional. I don't cry in front of that person. I cry after, because I feel like it's like message delivered. I understand that you're now leaving this relationship. I'm not going to fight for you and you've made a decision. I'm not going to fight

against that. So if anything, I'll give the relationship grace. I'll tell you my final words and what I actually think about you. I want to make sure I'm respectful. And then afterwards is when I can break down and really cry and really give those emotions. Because sometimes I feel like when you cry so much in a breakup and you do those types of things, it makes it much harder on the other person to deal with the breakup as well. Very empathetic of you. I'm not that empathetic, honestly. Pretty selfish in many ways. But it's not about empathy. It's just how I handle things. And I cry a lot more in private and in situations where I don't feel like I'm crying onto the person or making them feel worse about something that they already have

to do. I've always been like that. My first breakup, I was so devastated. I even did the dramatic fall on the floor to your knees and cry against a wall type of situation. I always think I'm in a movie when I'm by myself. Even if I'm on camera, I'm not acting like it. But I, yeah, everyone does like the fall against the wall and then you're on your knees. But I just have never really cried to someone in a breakup. I've cried after.

I've cried maybe on the phone. We're talking about things or seeing each other again. But that's not really the way I communicate or show my emotions. So it wasn't that I was relieved or was happy and realized, okay, we're not meant for each other. That came much later on. In that moment, I was just shocked because I genuinely thought we had such a great time in fantasy, sorry, overnights. They make you say it um i felt like we had such a great time we've been programmed yeah i almost felt deluded to the fact that i knew beforehand how much his other relationships were progressing so i was just so shocked because i felt like okay this makes sense but i'd kind of forgotten everything i mean i think that's great that you're able to do that

i mean i just think it's really unique and i unique. And your ability to kind of compartmentalize and focus on your relationship and be present in your relationship. I wasn't able to do that. I think a lot of other people who go through this experience worry a lot about the other relationships, especially when it gets down to three or four. What is your secret sauce, so to speak, in terms of focusing on the present and not distracting yourself? Because I get that they separate the women, but I don't think a lot of people have a very similar experience like that. I think it's really awesome that you can do that because my guess is your ability to do that just in life allows you to focus your energy on the things that matter most rather than wasting your energy on things that you have no control over. The show also didn't allow me to fall into bad patterns of behavior.

So I feel like the only way to actually get to know Zach, to have him get to know me, was not to get in my own way so becoming jealous becoming nervous about other relationships would only prevent me from being myself and being around him I honestly was watching and noticing how everyone's relationship all the time ended or came to a close not because that relationship wasn't doing well but because the person got in their own head so by being surrounded by the women the entire time, initially, I learned from honestly a lot of people's mistakes and what they also did to get in their just own footing. So I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing that because I've spent my entire life getting in my own way,

self-sabotaging, doing all these things. And I felt like the environment actually took that ability away. It's very weird, but it actually worked counterintuitively. Were you prepared to accept a proposal from Zach? It was really hard for me to be prepared to accept that when I kind of was getting a feeling that my family was really not on board. And when we had spoken in the fantasy suites, it really sounded like the conversations he had with my parents were not the smoothest and with my brother in particular. And I don't base my life off of my family at all. They're not like the arbiters of

my relationships or who I end up with, but it's important for someone to fit into my family and to fit into my world in life and i feel like a lot of things in the fantasy suite i started to notice a few differences in how that hometown went down that i hadn't actually seen when we were there well did you and zach at all during overnights talk about the future or you did and did you guys talk about the possibility of ending up together yeah plenty i think i think the term engagement was was definitely mentioned and we had spoken about a bunch of things like that okay did you go through like the logistical elements of like would we move to be with one another like kind of when you spoke about the future like what did that look like in terms of like tangible conversation items i from the, said that I would move anywhere for a partner. So I feel like I made that clear because it's

just true. I would live in Nicaragua or honestly, Antarctica with a partner if I felt like they were worth moving for. I feel like I can uproot my life and I've done it many times. So I'm not so tied to any city or any place. i was so happy to leave new york if i if i wanted to i was so happy to potentially live in austin or anywhere we both chose to live so that was like an easy conversation from like much earlier on drizzly is one of my favorite things to talk about because one thing about me i like to have a fun beverage they should hire you to be the poster to i love to have things delivered it is my two favorite things at the same time because i like to have signature cocktails i am an event planner and everything

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Download the Drizzly app today or go to drizzly.com. That's D-R-I-Z-L-Y dot com. Amanda, when you think of Italy, what do you think of? So I lived in Italy and I remember specifically, it was this big shock of being like, oh my God, the stores here are nicer. Like all of the brands that you know in the US, like the Italian versions are like classed up, they're higher quality materials. And there are all these ones I'd never heard before.

True thing. One of those is Intimissimi. I, to this day, hope I'm saying it right. Don't we all. Americans can get lost in the syllables, but you know what doesn't get lost? Feeling great about yourself. I have a bra from there that is like this gorgeous floral print, and it's just like a silk material that just feels like so nice. And you know, when you're wearing lingerie, when you're wearing bathing suits, whatever it is, like you want to feel classy

and elegant and like you're wearing something high quality. Intimissimi recently partnered up with Jennifer Lopez. So if you want to look and feel like JLo when you're shopping for your next lingerie set, you might want to check out Intimissimi. I know ultimately we're just going to take it off, but it is money well spent for all the people listening to this show who want to like how do i spice it up with uh in the bedroom it's amazing how laundry just go it goes a long way and if you want something with gorgeous fabrics colorful silks delicate lace like you want something that's high quality and you can whip out and it feels special every single time babe it's italian yeah yeah if you want to follow our lead if you want to look and feel Italian, if you want to live your best life, you can find Intimissimi online. You can go to intimissimi.com slash J-Lo.

Again, if you want to learn more, if you want to have a little shopping spree, you can find them online at intimissimi.com. That is I-N-T-I-M-I-S-S-I-M-I dot com slash J-Lo. That's SSIMI.com slash J-Lo. I love how tonight during AFR, when confronting Zach, you talked about how he took away your agency. And it made me go back and I was asking Allie and Amanda, because my first thought was like, you know, I get what she's saying. But then I was like, well, how did Zach zach how did he first tell you there's no sex you know because the first thought i was like well i mean zach has a right to like not want to have sex right like but then we were reminded that he said sex is off the table you know as opposed to i'm assuming what you were hoping for was zach to i mean i don't know why he decided to have that conversation on camera, but whatever.

Even if he was going to do that, it sounds like you would have appreciated a conversation and went more something like, hey, listen, I know this is overnights. I know there's often an expectation of sex. I'm not particularly comfortable with that. And I would hope that, I hope that we can use this time to have a lot of great conversations, get to know each other. I'd love to know how you feel, yada, yada, yada. And I love how you were able to articulate that on live TV, that it wasn't so much about that he didn't have the right to not want to do that,

but that he stole that ability to have that conversation with and connect on a kind of relationship and as an equal equal on an equal footing and um yeah i just really thought that was great and have any if you have any additional thoughts to that yeah just if we're supposed to approach any situation as a couple right we're potentially so close to engagement all these things i i feel like it's very frustrating when someone takes away your ability to even have a fluid conversation. I don't like when people just come to you with an idea and you're not having dialogue. It's just frustrating to also feel like

you're having the same conversation with all the other women. And it is even more frustrating as a woman when I'm not part of that conversation and we're not having a back and forth of how we feel about this. And I also felt like that should be private. I think there should be so much privacy and intimacy when it comes to this kind of setting and in general. And I think that there should be discretion. So I think it should be left to interpretation if anything happened or anything of that nature, even said that, I don't know. I just don't like the way he handled any of that. And I don't like the way he handled the conversation. And it frustrated me to feel like, okay, I am on the same page as you, but why are we doing this now in the dinner portion when we're still kind of getting to know each other? Yeah.

I felt like a waste of that dinner. Totally. I couldn't agree more about how he decided to approach that week and set the expectation with you. But you also tonight voiced frustration that once he made the mistake he made, that you would have liked to have known you, as you mentioned, you're in this open relationship. And as you said earlier, the expectation was that you have equal right to information said, we discussed this. I was like, I don't know if he owes Ariel. Ariel? I'm in my head. Ariel. Ariel.

An apology. And it wasn't because I didn't think he did you dirty. It was more like he's already kind of fucked. And it was like. Be careful. Literally. And I thought, it's just like, all right. I'm going off the assumption that whether he told you or not, that once his, certainly once his date with Gabby happened, that he probably had decided that you were going home.

he had decided all right gabby i have my date with katie it was very clear that he was trying to protect his relationship with katie above all and now we know that he's with her and so that makes a lot of sense what would you have liked zach to do after his night with gabby and how would you have appreciated him handling it well two things he actually mentioned that to to jesse that he was going to tell me So that makes him not a man of his word twice. And although he might have known he was sending me home, I'm not going to speculate when that was or when he made that decision. But regardless of me potentially going home in that relationship ending, it doesn't mean you don't show that relationship respect with honesty. So even if you know something's closing and a chapter's ending doesn't mean you should change

the way you're acting that dynamic. So I was still owed an honest conversation. I was still owed the reason why he even released the information saying what happened with Gabby, which I also felt like was wrong. I think that was private. He shouldn't have said that and he should have run it by Gabby before he decided to tell anyone privately. He should have told Katie privately, should have told me privately so it the way everything was handled frustrates me but on top of that i feel like i was owed just that honesty so regardless of him sending me home that doesn't mean that respect just dissipates because he's decided that he's we're no longer in a relationship. Regardless of what happened, you would have appreciated him just privately.

Yes. Saying, hey, listen, I know I set this expectation, but I ended up sleeping with Gabby and I thought you should know. But if he was going to send you home, would you have rather have him just send you home and giving you the courtesy of a more intimate goodbye rather than taking you to a rose ceremony,

which always to me as a bachelor felt very disingenuous but you would have still liked him to still have told you because i i guess i wonder you know i've been pretty hard on zach this season and as much as i know he stepped in it it's like i'm thinking that almost would have come across like clayton season where like his big criticism of bachelor nation was stop fucking telling everyone you love them and stop telling everyone you had sex with them it's like it seems almost mean at this point kind of rubbing this in so i guess it's more like well i totally get what you're saying i i guess i understand why zach did what he did after he fucked up because it was like does she want me to say it

or not but you either way you you would have liked more of a private conversation. Yeah. Either way, I feel like he has a full week to tell me that information doesn't have to be at the rose ceremony. And also I don't know how it works for people or for him. And I'm not going to say when he decided that I wasn't going to be the person he takes that next step with. I don't know if that was directly after our date. I don't know if that was made halfway through the week after his other dates, I don't know. So either way, the second that that happened with Gabby, I should have known right then and there

versus waiting any further. You know, now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like I know how he should have handled it. I feel like. How? I feel, you make a lot of sense. So based on what you're saying, yeah. Okay, he has his overnight with Gabby. He realizes the expectation he set with you has

changed. And so it would have made sense for him to come to you and say, Hey, listen, I want to be upfront with you. I had a night with Gabby. Things have changed. And I, and allowed you to ask more questions, which was Zach didn't seem particularly awesome at doing, but allow you to ask questions so that he could like decide whether how much information did you want to know? Because you could have been like oh, thanks for letting me know that things changed Am I going home or what happened and he could given you the opportunity to let him know how much information you were? Interested or willing to hear yeah, also that conversation should have happened with Gabby first and foremost Like if if you have physical intimacy with

someone, that is both of your private information that should not be shared until you ask the person and run that by them and so on. And yes, we're all in open relationships, so that honesty has to be there as well with Katie and I. But I feel like it was very disrespectful to do that to Gabby as well and to do it publicly twice and also not to give Katie the opportunity to think and digest and respond to do that publicly as well. So everyone kind of lost that week, particularly, honestly, Zach from the way he handled it. I know he has remorse and I definitely forgive him for everything that happened and appreciate the way he spoke to me tonight. I feel like I got the closure that I needed. And I feel it must be

very difficult to have to handle those dynamics and situations as well. So I can't imagine how it feels from his end, but there are such better ways to handle it. What did you think about the fact that Gabby said tonight? Oh, yeah. After our one on one when we were doing our overnight date, I was brushing my teeth and you came up and you said this stays between us. Obviously, you've talked about it. He's now twice not lived up to his word. Sounds like it's now a third time. How does he get around that of telling her in that intimate moment that stays between us? And then the next time she sees him, there's cameras in her face and he's wanting to talk about it on the show. I mean, I thought that was awful to watch as a woman because I feel like we've all been in positions where we've had physical intimacy with a guy and have felt

betrayed in how they relate to information, either to their friends, to your friends, anything publicly. I feel like that really, particularly for a woman, there just is a gender difference in that. it does hurt more because people will use negative terminology towards women that are in physically intimate situations versus men there just is that divide so i feel like to do that to someone to have that moment with them to make them feel bad about it and then also to reveal that information without their knowledge is just so awful to watch back so i i feel like i forget the question honestly um no just basically like how you felt about the fact that not only did they have this intimate moment and you could

say like oh maybe she thought it would stay between them we learned tonight that he fully told her it would stay between yeah it's almost like we were all under the impression that Zach kind of just took it upon himself to decide, which, as we all kind of agree with, was not great. But extra shitty, it sounds like, that regardless of what she was okay with or not, he set the expectation with her that he wouldn't say anything. Yeah, blindsided her.

And then blindsided her. And then blindsided her. That feels like many layers of dishonesty. Yeah. Well, it's just another example of not being a man of his word. Yeah. I'm curious when you saw like the first trailer for the season

and it kind of alluded to this kind of like sex week and also like, you know, it was an act of love, all of that stuff. Did you have the instinct to reach out to Katie or Gabby and see what had happened?

Especially knowing that at the rose ceremony, he'd said the thing about the head and the heart and it had in your gut, you knew something was off. Like, did you ever think about seeking information through like the people that you'd become so close with? Yeah. Cause you mentioned, I think, was it tonight or earlier that you found out about all this? Well, during fantasy suite week. So yeah.

To Amanda's question, did your kind of like spidey senses kind of go off being like wait what i thought you know that line of it was an act of love and not lust or whatever like did you wonder if maybe something went on for sure but i also think it's up to the women to come to me and tell me that information versus me to ask. I feel like you could be as curious as you want to be, but knowing that you're not involved in that, I feel like it's better to give people space and time. And I think after being in the show, it takes a really long time to heal and process and then to reach out to the other women and then to feel like you can talk about what happened. And I feel like a lot of information actually

came to light for all of us in watching it back versus what we experienced. So I feel like none of us knew the full scope of information until we saw that episode. And that's the most unfortunate part. something that uh you you know even hard on but what's something you appreciate about zach and then what's something as i guess i use the term lightly an ex of zach what's a some constructive criticism if you got to run into him that you would offer him to be you know a better partner in future relationships or his relationship with katie what would what would be something you would like him to work on um I have a lot of compliments to give him. I think he allowed me to be open again for the first time in three years. I haven't introduced anyone to my family like that in so long. I feel like he allowed me to just be as inappropriate with my humor, as open, and I hate the term vulnerable now, I can't even say it, but I really was very vulnerable

with him. I was able to have really deep conversations and really able to show every facet of my personality without judgment. So I appreciate for him making me feel so, so comfortable going into such a difficult environment like this and also feeling up until that moment in Fantasy Suites. And I don't want to degrade our relationship to being that one week because there's so much more outside of that. But I'm so grateful to him in so many ways. And I think my critique would be for him to listen more and think more before. I think he really wants to be noble.

And I think he really is a great guy. He's genuinely so kind and so earnest. I think he wants to make a lot of other people happy, but in trying to do so and trying to please everyone, he ends up pleasing no one. So I think it's important for him to... Also, it takes time. Again, like I said, he's 26 years old. I think he has some growing up to do and some things to learn, and he will. And I think this experience will take him to a place where he needs to be as a partner because I think he has learned from all of the information that Gabby, Katie and I have said. And I also feel like this, you learn from experience. And I think this experience brought him to a totally different place. But I guess my main piece of advice would be to really think before you act. to really think before you act.

I was critical of Zach this season of, he seemed to just have a lack of empathy almost. It was, and not because he didn't care. I like to your point, it seemed like he generally wanted to have the women have a nice experience. It seemed like he genuinely cared about their feelings. He just seemed to just lack the ability to put himself in other people's shoes when they were expressing an insecurity or a fear.

And he almost, at least it read that he was more frustrated than not. Did you have a similar experience in kind of real time with Zach? Or was that just maybe, you know, music and us watching the show and just like what what's live doesn't necessarily always translate to the television I didn't but I think he sympathizes versus empathizing again based on experience I feel like he hasn't had a lot of these experiences and I think that it was hard for him to relate to a lot of experiences the women had even in my own and I think sometimes you don't need to relate so I feel like people are expecting him to have all this empathy and understanding all these things and I think sometimes you don't need to relate. So I feel like people are expecting him to have all this empathy and understanding all these things.

And I think he did a lot of the time. I think he just couldn't put himself in the women's shoes. And I guess that read on his face versus in his actions. Yeah. You three women kind of it was noticed during fantasy overnights that you posted the same picture with the same caption. How did that come to pass? Never doubt the power of three women. You posted the same picture with the same caption. How did that come to pass? um i really hated everything that was kind of put out about sex and anticipation and intimacy i i hated like the the way that a lot of the women were portrayed in a way i think it's difficult

as a woman to to seem like almost this temptress or something of that nature right um and and that week really downgraded our relationships for like a sex sells approach which i didn't like so that that post of all of us posting the same thing with the arts and solidarity was to combat that in a way and to just show that no matter what storm has kind of weathered us we are all still friends we all still support each other and it was just a way of of really making everyone everyone had a very different experience with overnights they had their own personal tragedy in that so it was just a way of really making everyone, everyone had a very different experience with overnights. They had their own personal tragedy in that. So it was a way of us all saying,

we recognize what every girl has experienced, and woman rather, and we're here for each other. Whose initial idea was that? Can't say. Did you coordinate dresses? Because it was very cohesive and I was wondering. That was the only dress I bought on the fly.

Okay, so you bought it in Thailand? That was one of the most coordinated rose ceremony outfits across the board. I had no idea. There's always someone who has a short or slightly different dress

than the rest because how do you not? You're not going to coordinate. You have to pack everything up. But it was a beautiful jewel-toned extravaganza. i had no idea i completely ran out of outfits by that point so i was grasping at straws for a final outfit and that was the last

one i had left my question is i feel like something we've critiqued zach on this season is a lack of follow-up questions and a lot of the times when people come to him on one-on-one dates and they share something, it's, I'm so sorry you've dealt with that, but there's no follow-ups of, you know, how is this relationship different? How can I help you? How have you grown from this experience? Was that edited out or was that not happening? Well, I wasn't privy to a lot of those conversations, so I can't say. But to be fair, if you're in a conversation with someone, But to be fair, if you're in a conversation with someone, imagine all 30 women, it's very hard to show continuous empathy also for people that the relationship isn't progressing with. So I feel like you said that earlier, like it's very hard to

kind of fake it with certain people or fake or even like you're having really intensified from what I've seen back conversations from the first week, where if you have a one on one the first week, you're propelled to say all these things of your past traumas and that's really hard to take on when you don't know someone it's really also hard to say the wrong thing back so sometimes it's better to be quiet and listen versus having a follow-up because if you misstep you are potentially hurting someone more and i think it's a lot of pressure to put on zach or anyone in this position even even a like i don't know what the terminology is even a participant like me to know how to handle those dynamics all the time because i don't always have the

right answer and i always i mean i always use humor so i feel like if someone's having a really bad day or really can i can i swear yeah cunt um So if someone's having a really fucked up situation, I don't always have the best answer. And I think expecting that of anyone, even someone with multiple accolades and degrees, is just unfair. You're very gracious. I'm really not.

I just can't imagine sitting there with someone that I'm potentially not 100% with, right? That I'm still getting to know. It's like when you're on a date with someone that you just don't. But you make a good point. You're very, your, your ability having gone through this, but you haven't, you haven't been the lead, you know, but you seem very good at putting yourself in Zach's shoes and shoes that you haven't even been in. And that's a rare quality. And it's a fair assessment. You know, I haven't even been hard on Zach.

You know, we recap the show, so we have to critique things. But yeah, it is a very tough position to be in. And you're having 17 conversations a night early on, where it's just like, you're just like, what am I supposed to say? It must be really hard to be doing this alone. Like you're one person.

All the women, as difficult as it is to hear about dates and hear about all these things, have each other to vent to, to talk about their feelings with, to empathize with and really fix how they're feeling in many different moments. You have 30 different potential friends. Obviously not everyone's going to be friends and you figure out who the people you're the closest to are. But Zach technically has no one so producers yeah but that's a hard dynamic right so it's a weird dynamic yeah it doesn't always initially feel like a friend and their trust isn't built until over time so i feel like you develop a closer bond with the women sometimes

than people kind of off camera initially totally uh i'm curious if you could indulge us for this topic a little uh a left field but uh the cat and brooklyn drama uh of which you were slightly involved in but you had a more pragmatic kind of response to it but i was very hard team cat just because i felt i was just like listen she's going for what she wants like this is about relationships i didn't get a sense from cat that she was trying to be rude that she was just trying to seize the moment and even at the risk of ruffling some feathers um i was okay with it i don't like how brooklyn well i understand why she was upset i didn't like how she handled it,

but you were kind of more, at least it came across as more, you understood Brooklyn's point of view a little bit more than Kat's. And I was wondering if you could shed some light having been there of what that experience was like for you. I did not like the way Kat handled the situation. I understand you should be selfish.

I understand you should be pursuing that relationship. But right before someone goes on a date, that date was canceled and suspended because of COVID. And imagine how Charity's feeling. She finally has her moment and that moment is pulled away. And then there was also a kiss, right? So there's a way to go about things and there's a way to be selfish. There's a way even, right, Katie giving the basket to Zach, finding a way to show your partner that you care about them and that you're setting yourself apart from the other women in a way in doing so without actually stepping on someone's toes to that extent. And I also don't think Kat had malicious intentions in doing so. She's not a malicious

person. She felt so guilty about it after. And truly there was like cognitive dissonance in the way of her action versus the way she felt about it after so it was hard to watch because i also in in the case of brooklyn i feel like brooklyn's protecting her friend she's standing up for a friend who feels like her friend can't stand up for herself sometimes in a way because charity had been wronged by not getting the date twice and she brooklyn was like i'm gonna stand up for charity because right now charity's focusing on her date I didn't like the way that Brooklyn spoke to another woman or to another person you never get your message across if you're insulting someone calling them names or saying anything like that like you lose if you speak that way so Brooklyn could have complete validity and volition to to say what she wanted to to cat on on charity's

behalf which also is kind of an overstep in some ways, because it should be Charity fighting that battle. But I get defending your friend because I get like that too. It always bites me in the butt and I always lose. They always become friends and I'm out there being like, why did I fight you? So I've always been like that person. So I relate to Brooklyn, but you can never speak to another person that way. So I really didn't like how Brooklyn was name calling, saying all those things because she kind of lost her own footing in that. So I feel like it was a lot of different wrongs. And again, there's no right way to handle these situations. We're all learning as we go. No one's ever been in this environment before,

and no one's ever felt this intensified emotions in such seed stages of a relationship. no one's ever felt this like intensified emotions in such seed stages of a relationship so i think everyone was kind of wrong in a way and i think everyone didn't like handle themselves the best way so i just i feel like also when you're in a group setting to call someone out like that and single someone out and have everyone agree it really i hate dynamics like that i hate like one person being singled out and 10 people against them. So I felt like I had to kind of stop that dynamic because then Kat will shut down and she actually won't listen to what she did wrong. She'll be the victim and she'll feel defensive and be on the offensive. Yeah.

I mean, because I always say that, you know, there's only, there's only one bully in bachelor nation and it's the house and it's usually majority rules. Cause I think usually in that environment where it's the house and it's usually majority rules because i think usually in that environment we're it's a very unrealistic setting as you've pointed out many times in this conversation it's not realistic you don't know how to act in these you know you don't know what

you're really signed up for until you're there you know despite like you know you can you can watch as many seasons as you want but until you're there you don't know what it's like and yeah it's it's one of those things where you're you know you you can, you can watch as many seasons as you want, but until you're there, you don't know what it's like. And yeah, it's, it's one of those things where you're, trivial like no one's committing any crimes here like they're just doing their best version of what they think they should do to advance a relationship with very limited time yeah i don't think it has to be a crime to call out something that's wrong it doesn't have to be like a high misdemeanor yeah to call it a bad action um i also think that in our situation in the house we did have like a pretty honestly high level of like camaraderie. I hate that word, but we were pretty civil to one another. Yeah, there wasn't a lot of drama.

No, and it didn't turn into an all of us against Kat situation at all. I think we all just kind of gave her, honestly, people weren't contributing that much in that setting. It just started to spiral. Gotcha. people weren't contributing that much in that setting it just started to spiral gotcha so it didn't continue on after that it wasn't like okay now cat is on the out or now brooklyn's on the out it wasn't a situation like that there was no situation that happened in perpetuity like that curious for you i think so many people think of the bachelor as a very christian franchise and though of course there have been like jewish contestants in the past and i just realized that andy was also like a lead was jewish um I, as a Jewish woman, it was really exciting to see someone kind of like name that on screen. And I'm curious, like what your experience was like.

And if that felt like the kind of like the Christian stereotype of The Bachelor, like felt present for you or just like in general, how your identity kind of informed your experience, if at all. Yeah, it definitely did. I think that that was very important for me to say. I think there have been Jewish contestants in the past, but no one's been very outspoken about that. Yeah, it's like hush hush. Yeah, honestly, not necessarily out of the show's volition, but more so maybe out of their own, or it just didn't fit into, I'm sure, so many other things that happened. So that conversation

wasn't brought to light, but I felt like it was very important for me in hometowns. After thinking about it a lot, and after debating how I wanted to relay the information, I really wanted to speak about Judaism and speak about my family dynamic and in particular, also about being first generation. I think it's very important for me to, I feel like that defines my entire life and the way my parents raised me and my parents' really difficult experience with anti-Semitism in with what they had in the Soviet Union. So that to me goes kind of hand in hand. And I felt like Zach couldn't meet my family and he couldn't really get to that next phase of dating unless he knew that information. I also think it's important to point out too, while most things in this environment are very

pre-planned and staged when it comes to dates, when it comes to hometowns, the contestants have a decent amount of say in what they do for their daytime activities. So it seems like that was something that, you know, you made a part of the date and was a conscious decision rather than, you know, something outside of your control. spoken person on the show that is Jewish, if I don't come off in a great light, people might have a problem with that might like cause a surge in some sort of negative feelings towards Jews. Or if my family comes off a certain way, that could create a negative kind of trope around a Jewish family. So I feel like I had to be very particular in the way I spoke and holding myself to a certain standard in that conversation. And also when you're relaying that information to someone on a date, it's very hard information for the other person to process that hasn't had that kind of like religious exposure. Or I don't see Judaism as a religion. I see it as kind of a

nationality based on my parents' experience because it said Jewish in their passport when they were in the Soviet Union. It didn't say Ukrainian. So I feel like I really wanted to be particular on hometowns in the way I was speaking on my culture and making sure that if people had negative sentiment around me as a person, that didn't create negative sentiment around Judaism. 100%. And I'm curious, what's your favorite holiday? Jewish holiday? Secretly Halloween, so technically porn. Yeah, porn. I feel like it's lame to say, but Hanukkah.

That's not lame. What am I going to say? but Hanukkah. That's not lame. What am I going to say? Sukkot? I'm also not... Yom Kippur? I do like that one because I always feel very snatched after. Yeah, you think about what you've done. I really like Rosh Hashanah too. No, sorry. I just listed all of them.

I really like Passover because of the timing of Passover. And I felt like I always could come home when I was in university. And when I would come back, we'd always have like these big dinners for Passover. So I always loved that in the matzah. I always appreciate the families that are more skeptical rather than like, oh, that's the bachelor. This is great.

You should like, you know, get engaged to my daughter or son. And your brother and your dad were more, kind of took the experience at face value and kind of asked what I always think are like normal questions that you would ask if some strange guy walked into your house with a camera crew and said, Hey, I'm dating three other women as well. And I've only known your daughter for three weeks, but we might get engaged. How did you, did you like that and appreciate those types of questions

or were you more upset when you found out, you know, that Zach's experience with your brother or your dad, you know, was a little more challenging for him than you had anticipated? I feel like my brother is very protective and he wants what's best for me. And I feel like he kind of broke the, what is it called? The fourth wall. Um, and, and asked a lot of questions that people usually aren't asked. And I feel like that was important for him to do. I feel like my family is just very realistic. And I tried to be as real as possible about the process too. But I mean, this has been said so many times, like I made this decision, my family didn't. So they don't necessarily have to be on board. But I feel like

my parents were very supportive because as my dad said, fully trusts me so i feel like my brother asking those questions felt so dramatized and so negative but really he was coming from a loving place and he was being supportive and i don't think those questions are that difficult it was more so the sentiment of it wasn't about the question by the way my birthday august 24th yeah um middle name is lana um i used to hate my middle name and now i can finally say it proudly um but yeah lana del rey made it cool yeah her name is probably fantastic very true only fans repeat um but where was i trying to thought oh i i feel like my brother has always been kind of like that and i don't think there's anything wrong with someone being protective. And I don't feel like he was being so aggressive as it was necessarily portrayed.

I think just in the setting of the show, it just seems so, so volatile. But in reality, if someone's asking you that and poking holes in a relationship moving really quickly, that's the normal thing to do. I think blind support is also just not how my family would ever be, but they support me after seeing like the proof of things so my dad said you've always always been like the black sheep in a way you've always done things that I didn't initially support or understand necessarily but you've always proved yourself to me and always not that I have to prove myself but you've always made me proud and in any decision you've made whether I've been skeptical of it or not um I've always understood why you did something. So if this is the person for

you, I trust you in that decision. yeah for sure and i i didn't like how the whole like my family is so loving and so welcoming and like being part of the ukrainian jewish community it's very gregarious there's truly like a hundred person dinners and the setting and the way the my family was portrayed i didn't fully align with because i didn't feel like that's the way they necessarily were so also being the first openly jewish individual on the show and having my family with that kind of interpretation of being like aggressive and all these things we almost kind of felt a little bit other than, I just didn't appreciate that setting. That makes sense. It totally, it felt kind of like villainous

in a way that was like uncalled for. And it was like, come on, you're really not gonna be more mindful about the narratives that you're- The show does not like to reward the families that critique the experience. Yeah, which I understand. And I understand why also Zach would be taken off guard

from those questions in that kind of a setting. But I feel like my family was very hesitant of everything when I went in. So they weren't going to pretend or act any which way just because the cameras are on in the same way as me. I thought they were great. I really enjoyed them. Yeah. It's like a wanted poster of my brother everywhere. He was great.

Yeah. I think it's normal. It's just like. I do too. It's like. I poster of my brother everywhere. Oh, he was great. Yeah, I think it's normal. It's just like- I do too, yeah. It's like, I think it's bizarre. And I, you know, where the families are like, this is great. It's just like, you're, what?

You don't know who I am, you know? It's like, this is not normal. So like, yeah, I always appreciate that level of objectivity with the families, so. Me too, my family's always been stern, but very loving. Yeah. And realistic, but also accepting in the end. object objectivity with the family so me too my family's always been stern but very loving yeah and and realistic but also accepting in the end uh well i know we have to wrap things up a little bit but we always like to do a texting office hour with our our guests and for the sake of time

we're not going to have someone call in but we love hearing you know you you've been through these relationships obviously this experience with zach, you've been so generous with your time and you seem very thoughtful with your relationship experience. So we'd love to get your take on one of our dear listeners have written in and are asking us for some relationship advice. So Amanda is going to read it. And then we're just going to hopefully offer this person who wrote in some advice to their situation and hopefully you can help us uh with solving that problem it's my forte should i stretch again all right let's go so this person said hi my name is jessica and i'm 25 years old anonymity i met a guy oninge in December. In many years of trying to use dating apps, he's the only guy I've actually wanted to meet and met off of one. We talked for about two weeks

before meeting in person. Right away, we clicked even over text. Our goals and aspirations aligned and the point we're at in lives is similar. We have just the right amount of similarities and differences. We text 24-7, flirt, good morning slash good night text, all of that. The first night we hung out, we went and got ice cream, drove around for a while and talked. I'm a very shy person and I was so nervous, but as soon as I saw him, all that went away and we were able to goof around and be ourselves. After the date, we continued talking every day. Nothing had changed. The next time we hung out was at my apartment, cuddled, watched a movie, talked, and that was it. The third time, about a week after,

again hung at my apartment. Before he left, he kissed me for the first time. We continued talking, flirting, et cetera. At this point, I asked him if he was talking to anybody else, and he said he was not. I was not either. After the fourth time we hung out, he started acting distant, so I gave him

some space. After about five days of him being weird, I confronted him. I said, hey, I noticed you've been distant. I've been trying to give you space, but we both discussed in the beginning that we're big on communication and I just want to know what's going on. He said, I like you. You're genuine and cool, and I enjoy talking to you and spending time with you. But when we kissed, I didn't feel a spark. I don't want to lead you on, but I would like to remain friends. Obviously, I was bummed because I thought things were going so well, but I told him I was okay with being friends. I do enjoy talking to him and having him in my life. So I was okay with that. We immediately went back to talking 24-7 after that conversation, essentially like nothing had

changed. We had talked on February 13th, of course, the day right before Valentine's Day. As of March 24th, there hasn't been a single day we haven't talked to each other. And when I say 24-7, I mean literally all day, from the time we wake up until one of us falls asleep. That's a full-time job. So not 24-7, but... Yeah, like, you know, 18 7 we still heavily flirt with each other which i held off on until he started again we've hung out three more times i do know he's updated his hinge profile but since i've uninstalled the app to add to the mess we've had sex twice since he said he

wanted to be friends when we started talking we discussed that we weren't looking for games or to sleep around. And he made it very clear to me that he had not had sex in about a year and didn't want to sleep with someone unless he saw a future with them, which confused me even more. Was all of that a lie? Did he see something with me? Was he just keeping me around to sleep with me? You know, those types of questions popped into my head. About two weeks ago, I was confused about what we were doing. I sent him this. I'm just going to say this because there's never going to be a right time. I'm okay with what we're doing. If you just want to be friends that sleep together occasionally, that's fine. But also putting it out there that I do still like you. I don't know if I'm reading it wrong, but sometimes

you make it seem like you do too. I'm not trying to make you uncomfortable or push anything, but I think it's important to say how you feel. The last thing I want is to fuck something up genuine. He said, I appreciate the honesty and all the thoughts you have. Hiding that would mess things up more, I think. I know you still have feelings. That was it. We left it at that and started talking about other stuff. Since that conversation, still talking 24-7, 18-7. He always asks how I'm doing, is interested in our conversation asks questions flirts goofs around with me calls me has opened up to me about his family and things he's struggling with etc just the other night before we were going to grab snacks he called me

so it was like walking around the store together even though we were in different places i'm just so lost i feel like he's very back and forth i I don't know if he does have feelings, but he's scared or pushing them away. If there's nothing there and I'm overthinking it, I don't know. I don't know what to do. At the end of the day, I do value our friendship and don't want to lose that, but I have feelings for him. Do I continue being delusional and hoping that something will happen? I don't want to cut him out of my life, but I don't know how to go about figuring this out without being pushy. Okay. I'm ready. Shoot. I took a lot of notes in that.

Give us your analysis. Yeah. I hate the terminology that people use when they say let's be friends when you didn't start off in a friendship. You met on a dating app. You're not friends. If you go back to communicating normally when someone's not giving you the commitment that you actually want.

So if you guys are in an agreement that you're casual, you've said you don't want to be casual, but then you act casual and you allow them to have, like not have that, but allow them, if you give someone an inch, they'll take a mile. So I feel like that is setting yourself at a deficit because you're not really acting like what you're saying. You're sending these really clear messages and really concise messages of exactly how you're feeling, but the way you're acting is as though you're not feeling that way. So, and so he's acting in kind because if you do sleep together after saying you want more than that and you want to be in a more like either exclusive dynamic or you just don't like to sleep

around. I think it's hard for someone from a male perspective to be sleeping with someone having all those messages communicating that way. And then having all those messages, communicating that way, and then you sending those messages. The two are opposing. So I feel like the best thing to do in the situation is the fact once you say what you want and the person's not giving it to you, it's as hard as it is, it's better to walk away because then they could always come back. They could be in a place that they're willing to date, but why would they wanna date if they don't feel like they have to? Yeah. Totally. You're good at this. I replace you.

Yeah. Yeah, watch your back. Yeah. No, it's great. But just only thing just to add is people, this is one of those classic stories of like why, they say they don't wanna be my boyfriend, but they act like my boyfriend. And I'm assuming she's probably said this to a lot of her friends like but he's acting like my boyfriend all the time that may be true but she's also jess jessica whatever uh is acting like she

she's saying i like you and she is saying that she wants a relationship but she's acting like she's okay and even saying that she's okay with something that deep down we all know she's not okay with. And she is showing him through her actions that she's fine with being casual and she's fine with, you know, being fuck buddies. And despite her saying to him that she has feelings, she is showing them that, you know, it's chill and it's cool and it's okay. And guys, all that's even not guys, but anytime someone says i'm not ready for a relationship and early on they say that like that's they treat that like a get out of jail free card believe what people say yeah exactly they're like they're literally telling you they're not wanting

one and no matter what they do going forward no matter how many movies you go to or how many times you have sex or if they introduce you to your friends or you meet their parents they're always going to come back with i told you i didn't want to be in a relationship. As we've said all the time, people hang out with their friends, people introduce their friends to their parents and people introduce their friends to other friends and friends even sometimes have sex

and they go to parties together and they hang out all the time. Friends don't have sex. Pardon me? Friends don't have sex. Some. That's not friends well you know if you have gay friends that's true we'd be fucking we'd be fucking friends well i'm just

saying you know like it's all happened so yeah she should stop telling herself that she's okay with something she's not okay with am i the only one in the room who thinks less of this man for ending the text with i know you still have feelings yeah fuck that because the whole way he communicates weird yeah like isn't there a part of that that's just like so like if you know why are you like still doing this you know it's a bad move because it's showing that he's complicit in this behavior and understands that she still has feelings and is still willing to bend those feelings to get kind of what he wants out of the situation and And also, when you show that you know or have the full scope of awareness, but you're still acting poorly, that's a really bad reflection on you.

I feel like he's also getting the emotional support, the continuous communication. He's basically getting kind of everything out of the situation because he doesn't actually want to, like he's saying he doesn't want to be in a relationship. But I feel like she does and she's giving him all of her time and effort which is taking away time from other people that she could actually be dating so I feel like it creates this tie to this dynamic in this person but like time is very precious and if you give if you're talking to someone 18 7 8 24 7 whatever it is um it's very hard to put yourself out there and you become more limited in the energy that you put out

so I feel like my advice here is to really you don't have to cut him out or demonize him or create this like big Rift you actually need to now under communicate after over communicating and just start to try to date other people and see how you feel Because if you want to be in a relationship and someone's not giving you that maybe one day they will so keep them in I guess your Back burner if you will. But don't talk to them 24-7 because they don't deserve that. Yeah. Also, when people say they don't want to be in a relationship, it doesn't mean that they

don't enjoy quality time and they don't enjoy companionship or sex at their convenience or someone to go to the movies with or dinner with. It means they don't want to have responsibility. It means they don't want to owe you anything and they don't want to step up when it's inconvenient to their life. And so, yeah, he's been incredibly selfish. But as you said earlier, if you let someone be selfish, chances are they will be. And if you don't enforce the boundary you try to set, the chances are they won't do it either. But we've all been in that position too, where we've said, in her position in particular,

where we think if things continue going really well and the person's continuing to communicate, we look into all those things. And I would as well. So I get why she's, and also we take a chance on people because sometimes people, when a guy looks at you and says,

I don't want to be in a relationship, you're like, give me three months. You know what I mean? No one hears that and registers it and says, got it. They're like, what do I need to do to change this? You know, they're like challenge, truly challenge accepted. Yeah. So when they start hanging out with you, you see it as hope rather than you're being fucked

wrong with. Exactly. Yeah. So you become all those little actions too. You start to overanalyze because you're pinning it up against, they don't want to be in a relationship. So if they're introducing me, they're, oh, this is like it up against they don't want to be in a relationship so if they're introducing me they're oh this is like overriding that don't want to be in a relationship thing but really they're just acting in line with what they initially said

and i feel like it's also easy to get someone to change their mind if you actually take yourself out of the conversation so i don't think anyone ever doesn't want to be in a relationship in general i think they just feel like they can say that. Yeah. Until you make someone step up. I mean, think about it. This guy is getting everything and everything, anything and everything he wants at his convenience. And it sounds like she's very willing to like be available whenever he wants.

And any moment when he doesn't want to do something, he can simply say, but you're not my girlfriend. I say ghost him and freak him out. Yeah. Jessica. And any moment when he doesn't want to do something, he can simply say, but you're not my girlfriend. I say ghost him and freak him out. Yeah, Jessica. But truly in a really confusing way. Just confuse someone that's being confusing. I feel like if they start communicating again, to be random about the communication. Not complete ghost, but to kind of tap in sometimes.

Sprinkle some conversation. Act really aloof. Totally. Be like, sorry, I was super busy. How are you doing? Act honestly so aloof that the person doesn't think you're upset or angry, just feels like you're pulling back but can't explain it. Give them that same medicine. I think that's great.

How long would you play that game before you just cut it off? I'm in a different place now than I used to be when I would do these types of things. We all say we don't play games, but at times games can be necessary. You should play games. different place now than i used to be when i would do these types of things like i got like you know and we all say we don't play games but at times games can be necessary you should play games for but how long would you play a game with someone in this scenario how long would you recommend jess play this game before she realizes like how long before he needs to come around i don't think it's about waiting for him to come around i think it's about now having your cake and eating it too

you can now you're in a position now where you're not in a relationship, right? You can date who you want, do what you want. You're completely open while you really, it is hard to have feelings for someone. I'm guessing she's emotionally invested and I'm doubtful that she can play a game with him and then stay open to dating other people. Yeah. I'm not saying sleeping with other people because I think it's hard to be sleeping multiple people at once and i also think it's once you sleep with someone it does change things and it changes your emotions on the situation it's actually very like physiological the release of oxytocin the love chemical so i love oxytocin on this show do you guys do you guys talk about oxytocin i think we talk we talk about it at a decent... It comes up. I think about it all the time.

So I feel like she is emotionally invested. So the way to get out of that is to start putting yourself out there even if you don't want to. And I don't mean in a physical way. I mean like truly going on dates and doing other things because sometimes you get stuck in the comfortability of even a bad situation.

Yeah. I'm just worried for her that she's, will be too, it'll be hard for her to like separate dating him and someone else. Yeah, but they shouldn't even be communicating

at this point because he's not treating her with kindness. He's just, like it's bizarre to me to be talking about all these things and then go off

and basically start communicating normally being like, so what'd you get for dinner? Totally. You know, after a conversation like that hard to me to be talking about all these things and then go off and and basically start communicating normally being like so what'd you get for dinner totally you know after a conversation like that you shouldn't have a normal conversation do small talk are you often the the friend who gives other friends dating advice yeah people that can't can't do teach but you you seem like also good at it and interested in giving it you're yeah i love to give advice because I learn a lot about myself, but I'm always chatting shit and always change my mind. Yeah, we just come from this as a place of, we just have opinions.

Yeah, and I also think that I've always liked to be in that position with friends because I think I learn a lot from my friends' unconventional dating situations that I'm not personally in. I think I'm more open-minded because from my friends unconventional dating situations that I'm not personally in. I think I'm more open-minded because of my friends' experiences and because I didn't date until I was much older. Not much older, but like... What's next for you? What you mentioned on the live, it seems like your DMs are open. They're closed.

They're closed. Are you totally single at this moment? You are. Yes, you're nodding. Yes. And chances of seeing you on the beaches of paradise? Is that something you'd be open to? We'll see.

We'll see. Scale of one to 10. 10 being like, I'm there. I can't wait. All I have to do is ask. Zero being no chance. Where would you put yourself? It's the same thing with overnights, right?

I don't say something, so I go against it. So I'm always open-minded, but I don't really know how I feel about going back into something like that. And I also feel like the beach would be very different than what I experienced. It would. Yeah. It's a lot of fun, you should go.

Really? Yeah. I feel like it's not me. We'll see. What don't you think is you? I feel like, first of all, I hate the heat. There's that. Don't do well in the heat. I'm sweating right now.

It's hot. It's warm in here. The lights are hot. But it is muggy. That part you might hate. I'm totally kidding. Yeah. I don't know.

I feel like I put myself out there so much in this past situation i think it'd be hard for me to go through that again i think i've moved on from it but i felt like that was kind of a one-off situation for me potentially um just because of i mean i it really took me a long time to get back into my regular life to really process everything that happened and rectify that situation. So I think that it would be hard for me to put myself out there in that setting where everyone's kind of shifting around couples as well. I hope that you're open to it. I think there's a lot of fans out there that hope to see you again. And it's a very different experience. I can't say whether it will be for you or not for you but it's it's easier for you to control um your experience uh because it's not about one person

and you have plenty of options and you can kind of really can kind of come and go. It's a lot more hanging out with people. And I think most people have an opportunity. Most people, I feel like they can really be themselves. And for what it's worth, I think it'll be fun. I didn't say no, I'm open. Okay. Yeah. We'll see you there.

Maybe. BachelorNation hopes to see you there. Everything's a maybe with me. Okay, maybe. It's never a no or a yes. I mean, for due diligence, Bachelorette, would you ever be interested in that kind of role? No.

I said that really quickly. I think it's too much pressure, and I think it's really hard to be in that setting, and I think that I don't know how I would personally be able to handle that what is something that you uh we should be excited to see as charity as the bachelorette and what is something uh you hope that she surprises us with uh that uh might be unexpected oh i think she's going to be unbelievable i she is one of the people that I also initially

bonded with. I remember my first days in the house, we had a really long conversation about what she does professionally. She's a child therapist. I think she'll be so great at communicating with all the different men, making them feel extremely comfortable. I feel like she is going to have an amazing season two because I know I'm really excited to see her find her person because I think she really deserves that. And I think she opened up so much in this past process. I think she's ready to be in a relationship and she's really healed from her past and what she had in terms of infidelity in her past relationships. Awesome. Thanks for sharing that. And before we let you go, we have to get your

take on all the Vanderpump drama. I know we made you do your research. Should I get my notebook? She does have a notebook. I was asked if she's been watching it, and she mentioned that she was. I was like, ooh, we have to get into it. I don't like to be unprepared. I know every detail. I appreciate you doing your homework.

Do you have any hot takes? What are your thoughts? Briefly, what do you think about what's going on in the Vanderpump community? Well, it's amazing for the show. Indeed, yeah. I mean, Iump community? Well, it's amazing for the show. Indeed. Yeah. I mean, I'm joking.

I think it's awful to experience that so publicly. And I think all the people at play are not handling themselves well. I think when you fuck up, just put your head down and also own up to it. And I feel like people are not owning up to their fuck ups and they're not owning up to anything really even in in the sand of all that he says him i believe so yeah yeah should we call him thomas to seem disciplinarian yeah in thomas's um apology he's talking about other people in the restaurant and things like that he's not talking about what he did to his partner of nine years so i just think that do better have you ever been cheated on um not that i know of okay but in college tell you that

maybe you might have but didn't know about it i hesitated because in college i feel like when i was in an in-between phase with someone where we weren't boyfriend and girlfriend, but we were talking about exclusivity or getting into that phase, I was cheated on. But I wouldn't really consider it cheating. Okay, so it's not like something that maybe you, like Ariana's experiencing where it was a big kind of- No, I've never had anything like that. And if I've been cheated on,

they've been really good at hiding it. So they crushed it. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much, Ariel. Did I say that right? Yeah.

I got on my head again. You were great. Really enjoyed the conversation. I feel like we could keep talking, but for the sake of time, we're going to let you go. But it's been a pleasure talking with you. Do you have any final thoughts or things you want to share?

If you want to promote anything by all means, I have nothing to go nuts, but truly thank you. It's been a pleasure talking with you. Do you have any final thoughts or things you want to share? If you want to promote anything, by all means. I have nothing to promote. Go nuts. But truly, thank you. It's been a lot of fun. Yeah. Thank you guys so much. I feel like it's such an easy conversation.

Hit us with your TikTok-ing handle or an Instagram. Yeah. Or can people follow you on Instagram? Come on. Give me some. If they want to find me, they can. Leave a mystery alive. What is your Instagram?

I think it's my first initial A, my last name F-R-E-N-K-E-L, one, I believe. I was also on a TikTok handle. I know, I need to change it to my actual name, but it's afrankel1, and then that's my TikTok as well. And what's your favorite smell, and what do you think it says about you? Oh my God.

My favorite smell? Yeah, and what do you think it says about you my favorite smell yeah and what do you think it says about you in terms of a perfume or a general scent general scent anything in the world anything in the world I love something

kind of fresh I hate lavender and rose even though I know lavender is relaxing but I guess something like with cucumber cucumber

yeah whoa cucumber and like lemon or something hmm does that mean she likes to party? I think it's crisp. No, she's like refreshing.

I think it's cool. You can't get, she's not, yeah. I immediately thought of like a lemon cucumber drink. Should I say like sandalwood? I want to see what like all the answers are that you have. Smooth mahogany. I don't know. We like that question.

All right. Well, thank you so much again it's been a pleasure thank you guys for listening i hope you enjoyed this episode don't forget that we have our recap coming out on thursday we have an update special for all you uh ask nick fans who love your updates it will be not behind vile files plus it will. Well, it'll be available. Not live. This coming Friday. Katie Maloney next Tuesday. Going over Love is Blind next Thursday. So much coming up.

Thanks for tuning in. Have a great night, day, wherever you're listening to this. Bye. Ciao. you