The Viall Files - E561 Bachelor Finale Recap with Ashley Gavin

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Bachelor Recap Edition! Today we are joined by comedian Ashley Gavin to talk about the finale of Zach’s season. We first discuss some Bachelor Tea - including Mike Fleiss leaving the franchise and Zach claiming that his final dates were aired out of order. Was Gabi led on to believe that she would be his final rose pick? Should he have told Ariel what happened in Fantasy Suites? We get into it all.  “Is the host supposed to provide guidance? I’d ask a stranger on the street.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://www.viallfiles.supportingcast.com  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/ To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: OSEA - Spring into your most radiant skin yet with clean, vegan skincare and body care from OSEA. And get 10% off your first order sitewide with code TVF at https://www.OSEAMalibu.com Drizly - Drizly is the most convenient way to buy beer, wine and spirits, with delivery to your doorstep in under 60 minutes. Download the Drizly app or go to https://www.Drizly.com Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @ashgavs @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell 

what's going on everybody welcome back to another amazing episode of the vile files bachelor recap edition finale edition i don't know it was like i think it was just recap edition uh i'm nick i'm your host joined by ali man and derrick the household and our special guest today to help us break down the craziness that was monday night ashley gavin the very hilarious comedian joins us also as we always say big bachelor fan welcome thanks for thanks for being with us i this is the greatest day of my life i've been holding it in this whole time as a gay woman to be in this environment i feel that i got to the popular table in high school and i i'll be your honorary straight tonight i i'm just like so fucking excited let Let's go. We are excited to have you.

How long have you been watching the show? Oh my God, forever. At least 10 years. Like since college, I think I really got into it. What got you into it? And what's your favorite thing about it? I just love, as a gay person, I just love watching straight culture. I love, for me, it's like the the it's sort of like a sports draft like the

nfl draft of who's gonna be the most dateable and get out of their small town and make it to los angeles and like i i just love the archetypes of the different types of people that go on to the show and but i do at the end of the day i'm saying all this but i get heavily invested you just get invested you fall in love with certain people. You want to see them again and again. You know the feelings are real in many cases. It's just great TV. Yeah.

Well, we like it. We like breaking it down. Do you enjoy which of the staple shows, Bachelor, Bachelorette, Paradise, is your favorite? You have to like Bachelor best because you get to watch all the women in the house and me as a lesbian, I'm like, okay, well, which of these girls are bisexual and hooking up with each other? There was a lot of sapphic stuff going on on this season.

The internet is talking about it. I think, yeah, it comes out more and more, I think. As we progress as a society. Yeah, on. On my season, was she actually, she talked about it. Yeah, someone came out to you as bisexual. I thought that was huge.

I thought that was so cool. And you reacted so well. I think that was the first, I think that might have been the first one. And then obviously Demi in Paradise, but what was her name? From New Orleans. Jamie?

Jamie, yes. Very wonderful person. I love how based on my quick google the first headline is is nick from the bachelor gay great awesome i do one for everybody though i feel like i really messed up like one of my second tiktoks i ever posted with you instead of using they pronouns like i wrote you can't change him and it featured you and it was right after jojo siwa came out and so there were a few comments i was like is nick fayal gay like the internet was already in a frenzy and i was like i'm gonna lose my job i'm gonna lose my job because i accidentally outed my boss who is straight and this is

this is how i go i don't remember i wasn't yeah obviously i wasn't too concerned did you tell me about that what did you tell me about that i, it's probably on your profile somewhere deep down. It's from the I Can't Change Him one. I don't remember. Either way, well, I'm still here. Well, last night or, yeah, last night, Monday night. Fever dream. For us.

It was intense. Do we want to do any other topics before we get into Bachelor? Yeah, before we get into the episode. Do some batch tea? Okay. I'm also excited that Ashley's here, so I'm a little discombobulated. That's so nice. I don't believe you for a second, but that's so nice.

I'm usually a machine. I'm on track. No, he is pretty. I don't bounce around. Yeah. I don't know what it is. Do you want me to stop talking? No. I'm on bounce around. I don't know what it is. Do you want me to stop talking?

I'm on one Bachelor recap episode. I'm like, Nick Bial is telling women to stop talking. I can see the headlines now. Yeah, me too. Alright, what are we getting into? Do you want some batch tea? We got some tea? Sure. Well, The Bachelor is

changing. So The Bachelor creator Mike Fleiss is parting ways with the mega dating franchise he launched more than two decades ago. How does it read when they say parting ways? That sounds cryptic. Yes. So it says that Variety has learned. We're hearing from Variety's POV. Well, I'm assuming this is written by our friend of show, Elizabeth Wagmeister.

Correct, it is. Okay. I'm assuming this is written by our friend of show, Elizabeth Wagmeister. Correct, it is. Okay. Vlyce will be replaced by new showrunners Freeland, Jason and Bennett Grabner, all of whom have long-term ties to The Bachelor. Bennett's been with the show for a while. The other two, my understanding is one was a producer of Bachelor Canada and one was a producer of The Bachelor like a decade ago. Yeah.

And then got rehired. So Fleiss issued a statement to Variety and said, first and foremost, congratulations are in order for Zach and Katie. I wish them a long and happy life together. I want to thank WBTV and ABC for 21 extraordinary years. They found the perfect creative team for me to entrust The Bachelor franchise and keep this lightning in a bottle, bold and moving forward. Let the journey continue.

God. Sounds like a date card. I mean, I don't know anything, but it's not like he got fired. Well, I'm curious from the inside as someone who's been contestant lead, where would you say mike fleiss's like influence lies with his role or former role on the show well he's the creator of the show so my understanding is he owns the ip so even if he left like he's as they say like left the show's like creative they've in my like generation he wasn't around very much. He was living in Hawaii. Again, as the kind of career of the show,

he's had a lot of power, is my understanding, and kind of came and went when he pleased, so to speak. He wasn't running the day-to-day operations. And so for him to leave, it's not like he was showing up at an office every day. Yeah. So it was more of a at his leisure like he still owns the ip so like he's still like cashing checks like he's he's still

good in that department but like their only reason for them to do this like he's not maybe he did something wrong it seems like he got fired because like otherwise why would he resign like he would resign their position like they're like there's other people who like he wasn't he doesn't run the day-to-day he was like the king and then the other producers there was no reason for him to say i no longer want this role that my roles and responsibility were for me to like show up at my convenience yeah say yes no yes at my convenience and don't you know i need you to run this show without me uh but if i call you and give you some input you have to take my call right but like logically it just doesn't make sense that

he would resign this role which was i get to do whatever the fuck i want yeah it sounds lovely right and just get a paycheck in hawaii yeah so like to me this is warner brothers who is owned by discovery who works with abc somewhere in that the decisions were made were like we no longer want your input so just go home and we'll just send you your money. I don't think guys like this, I mean, I don't know a lot of guys like this, but they don't seem to give up power easily. Yeah.

Or gracefully. Yeah. And especially this guy. This show was created 20 years ago, right? By these kind of, you know, now older white dudes, right? Who have their version of what falling in love means. Like what romance means, you know, now older white dudes, right? Who have their version of what falling in love means. Like what romance means, you know, what is sexy?

What's a turn on? What is considered chivalrous? You know, what dating etiquette? Yeah. And they're ultimately have been the ones like, you know, and they've had other producers and they've had, you know, the producers I'm friends with are, you know, they could're fairly high up, and they're more on the ground floor. There's so many people.

There are hundreds of people who work for the franchise, right? A lot of people most of us never meet. But the people who are really high up are just, yeah, these now older white guys who still ultimately the buck stopped with them on who was the leads and all these things and like the often a common complaint of the show and i'm curious what you think is like the it doesn't kind of keep with the times and yeah and i know i said it when on the show and people lost their minds because i was you know a polarizing bachelor myself but like they haven't had a likable bachelor in forever yeah it's been a really long time it's not it's not just because they're casting shitty men it's i think the structure of the show and the positions

they're put in and and the and the show hasn't evolved with the times but the audience has evolved yeah i mean like it's it's not even a lot of the hard stuff which is like oh gender and sexuality a lot of it is just like i love the seasons where i can actually see emotional people like being real and the whole it's a journey and like the behind the curtain stuff like i don't want the curtain i want no curtain i want i want you know what's his name? Colton jumping over the fence. That's what I want. I want all of that batshit insanity that can be, you know, comes along with love sometimes, especially when it's on TV. That's what I want. And that's where I think they kind of, this season, it felt a little like stiff, you know?

Interesting. Because I felt like... Until Fantasy Suites. Until Fantasy Suites. You like when things go off the rails. Yeah, I want to see some batshit crazy stuff. So you loved Clayton's season. I adored Clayton's season.

Yeah. I want to see people fucking up. Same. She's like, give me someone who's missing their press on nails, something on a staircase. But I love you the most. I want the hair extensions on the floor. Yes, yeah.

Yeah. But you know what was fascinating that I couldn't believe they let go on air was, did we find out if it's Ariel? Because I listened to Ariel. Ariel. Ariel. When she called it an open relationship. We talked about that with her yesterday.

I'm so excited to hear that conversation. That was, first of all, Jewish representation on the show. Haven't seen that. Holy shit. That was awesome. And New York Jewish representation on the show. Haven't seen that. Holy shit. That was awesome. And New York City, like I'm from New York. But when she called it an open relationship with rules, that was, I thought, the most advanced thing that I'd ever seen on the show. And I loved it. Couldn't agree more. We talked about that with her yesterday. Yeah. Because I asked her and I don't know if she, you know, but to my knowledge from my time being involved, it's the first time I've heard it referenced that way, which is also comical because it's so obvious what it is.

But the show is notorious for pretending that it's normal. And it's such a traditional show with very traditional dating values and a very traditional audience. And the term open relationship is the opposite of all well it kind of gets into what we're struggling with as americans like if it's a if it looks like a duck if it quacks like a duck if it walks like a duck this is a polyamorous show period there's no way around that but like they're so traditional that they've become like a polyamorous show but then they don't want to call it like it's like this weird like woke circle i don't know or the horseshoe

politics where you go so far to one side you pop out on the other just call it what it is but i also have to wonder like if like the polyamory community is like hey hold on a second like don't drag our name through the mud here because like not necessarily they'd be stoked but just in terms of the like the idea of it's like it's a relationship only in like it's only a relationship in service of monogamy versus like legitimizing open relationships is like a good thing on their own right is the angle that i can imagine them taking yeah but i think it's also one of those things too where it's even just yeah even if you're searching for monogamy, oftentimes when you start dating someone, you know that they're probably dating other people. You don't know each other that well.

But even if it's, you know, talking about if you're sleeping with other people or whatever, like, I think Ariel's whole point was it's about open communication and whatever boundaries and parameters you set, whatever works for you guys as a couple. If it's, OK, sleep with whoever you want want but don't sleep with them more than once if it's don't sleep with anyone like whatever your rules are so long as those rules like if those change in any way you owe it to your partner regardless of your situation to let them know that it's changed well it's a whole premise that you can be in an open relationship and still have an affair or cheat on your yeah exactly like one has nothing to do with the other. Yeah. Yeah. And in not using that word, like that term to describe it,

it's like it makes The Bachelor like the separate thing where it's like, oh, well, it's The Bachelor. Like it's such a weird situation. Yeah, it's kind of fascinating how the franchise itself has been able to kind of avoid being connected with open relationships until Ariel. Do you think that it would make this,

like, because there's a high, I was listening to your last episode and you were talking about the high rate of failure with couples and like the emotional connections that they had with other people and sleeping with other people while on the show.

Do you think if they just like addressed the open relationship thing and like were more communicative about it that maybe the success rate would be higher? No, I don't know. Because maybe it's just, I think it has, they're still casting relatively young people

from relatively conservative parts of the country. They're starting to branch off. There's been more like coastal representation because they usually would pull like, you know, Nashville, Chicago, the South is 60% of their cast. You know, I don't know if a lot of like early 20 year olds are having like some maybe. But like, I think it's more like an advanced, you know, I've been fucking for like 20 years and I'm divorced.

And like, I just had to spice it up. Like, yeah, fuck it. Open relationships. I get it. to spice it up like yeah fuck it open relationships i get it i i don't know if it's going to help the success rate just because i think that would just come down to the individual people on the show and their point of views on sex and dating and that's a huge spectrum of right of what that means to everyone for those people who have chosen to sleep with two or in zach's case sleep with one and i i'll say this zach is not the first bachelor and i won't say who uh who um didn't sleep with their winner but slept with others

yeah so it's not as rare as you might think do you interpret that as they were had the mentality of one last hurrah or uh i don't know and this was a means of figuring it out i think again it's a spectrum i think the last hurrah is definitely something a lot of people have taken advantage of i think in other cases you know not everyone is like they're like yeah if you want if you want to fuck me you have to propose to me like i'm you know if you want to fuck other people this weekend great but like if you don't pick me i don't want you to be on my resume so to speak kind of thing and so they might say no and where someone else was like i don't know if you're gonna pick me but i am down to fuck you you know? Right. Right. Which also is very common. It might be almost be lower stakes for both.

Maybe if there's something I've never been in this position, but I imagine if there's a part of me that deep down knows I'm not going to be with this person and maybe they know it too. Maybe it's just easier to have a physical connection. Yeah. Well, it's really interesting what I think would be helpful is what Ariel suggested, which is what Zach didn't do. Now, you know, what's not talked about is, I know this much, Zach, while he is an adult and he is responsible for his choices, he was immersed in a very intense atmosphere without any lifelines or resources to a support system. And I don't think he got an ounce of good advice, including Jesse Palmer, who's always, it's always like,

I'm with you every step of the way. Actually is the host. I'm sorry. I'm like fangirling right now. Is the host actually supposed to provide guidance? If that would be the last part i would find a stranger in the street i would find someone trying to stalk the bachelor set and be like hey should i fuck this person before i asked either chris harrison or jesse palmer for romantic advice any uber driver

in america has given me better romantic advice from the 15 minutes that I've been like, and then this happened. The guy driving the goodbye van. I would run into that and be like, hey. The guy whose job depends on ratings and drama. Right. Exactly. That's a great point. Spring is upon us. We are all coming out of hibernation. So we don't want to look exhausted like we're still hibernating. We want to look refreshed. We want to look bright. We want to look ready to take on the warm weather.

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That's D-R-I-Z-L-Y.com. And get Drizzly, the number one app for alcohol delivery. That being said, it's just like I don't think Zach got any good advice and sean was ridiculous yeah point and take sean low what the fuck you know you know maybe maybe check in on like if they subscribe to all the other things you know that you subscribe to before you start like you know uh lecture them on their sex So what I think would be helpful for the show is what Ariel suggested, which is what she wanted Zach to do, which is like, yeah, if you want to talk about like sex,

even if you want to do it on camera, which was kind of stupid, like let's talk about it. But like, let's have a conversation. Yes. You know, Zach had every right to say, listen, I know sex is like part of this week for me. I'm not comfortable with the idea of like sleeping with people I've only known for eight weeks and dating three people. What do you think about it?

Right. You know, what are your expectations? And so if the lead starting having these conversations on camera with all three contestants, which was just like, what do you think about this week? How would you like to use this time? I'm the bachelorette, you know, like I'm dating two other people. Ultimately, I have to make my own choices. But like, what are your expectations of me? How do you want me to communicate about this? We saw with Katie, she was like, I don't want to fucking know that. I don't want to set false expectations. But like, yeah, how that would be fascinating. What level of disclosure?

It would be so great and healthy. Healthy for people to see people having those conversations and knowing that it's okay to have those conversations. Yeah, but I suspect they won't because while healthy, and I think it would make for really interesting TV, like definitely the first time, but I suspect, I could be wrong, that the powers that be won't want to make it a staple of the show because it will eliminate mixing it up and the confusion and all the drama that comes with this week

and all the different ways that it's been handled. You're appealing to my lizard brain that wants to. Yeah, so the fan in you wants the producers to be like, and all the different ways that it's been handled. You're appealing to my lizard brain that wants to. Yeah. So the fan in you wants the producers to be like, not give away that card to play. Right. The mental health advocate in you thinks it's pretty fucked up. Can you imagine a big super tease for the season where it's like, and fantasy suites.

And it's like, thank you so much for sharing that with me. I'm glad we communicated. Can you imagine the super tease for the season where it's like and fantasy sweets and it's like thank you so much for sharing that with me i'm glad we communicated like can you imagine like the super tease but it's like everything done in a note you'd be like oh well fuck but will we see that potentially with charity as our next bachelorette being the family and marriage therapist also another child and family therapist either way here's another. So much about this week, we definitely know, was Zach responding to Clayton being the Bachelor. Yes. And all that fallout. Charity has no idea, certainly about AFR. She's filming.

She's off the grid. And I'm pretty sure she's been off the grid since Fantasy Suite. So this might not have impacted her decision at all, but it won't because I don't think she's aware of the drama that happened this season. So she won't be, oh, well, Zach fucked up here, you know, and things like that. So it'll be interesting.

It would be fascinating if she made the same mistake, which was like, hey, I just want to be up front. I don't want to have sex this week. I want to set that expectation and do the same thing that Zachary's criticized is doing that would be kind of fascinating she's too classy to me i i think she's gonna have those conversations in private she just she's like she's very like poised and thoughtful and intentional so unfortunately i think i will not get what i want this season that's my fear totally yeah. She led a grounding exercise when like the, the season,

when there was like drama between the women, it's like, this could have boiled over. This could have turned into a huge fight. And so we got grounded. Every time she got fucked over, she was just like, so not taking the bait.

Yeah. From anybody. Yeah. Just very calm and thoughtful. Again, like we, we talked about this a couple of weeks ago. Like when Michelle Young was the best shred,

she would say things. You'd go yeah like damn i'm definitely gonna take that advice you know like totally thanks and then you're also like ah you know like yeah yeah yeah it makes it you know so i want to see your trauma i want to see your scars i don't want to see you perfectly control a classroom of girls if the producers are doing the job, they will find someone in this great country of ours and someone who they think, or at least a couple of suitors that Charity would be attracted to who has recently or in the past cheated on their partner.

Yeah, yeah. And they need Charity to fall head over heels for at least one of those people. So the first one I won they get charity sympathy you know I've been hurt I didn't have a relationship with my dad he never told me he loved me or whatever and then she's falling in love

and the second date he's just like you know charity charity like on a group date you know it comes up that she was cheated on or some shit or you know and then he drops she's in love he drops I need to be honest with you like I know you've been cheated on or some shit or you know and then he drops she's in love he drops i need to be honest with you like i know you've been cheated on and i needed i needed to get it out and i was waiting for the right time but like three years ago like i cheated on that'd be then then we'll

have a good season because chat gbt to like write your own scripts and we'll just like have a bunch of sims acted out i'd watch it but yeah they're doing their job they will find a way to scratch that itch of whatever you know we all have something that triggers us is there bachelor fanfic what's that there's gotta be fanfic fanfiction oh my god you're writing it right now you just wrote a bachelor fan yeah yeah it's like it's like fans will based on like their favorite characters whether it's from like books movies tv shows etc like write their own they'll take their they'll take it on 50 shades of gray was a twilight fan fiction yeah they're usually sexual yeah maybe that's not so like the wolves and the vampires were like edward and bella and

then they just kind of like turned it into like Christian Grey. I did not know that. Huh. After the whole After series was fan fiction about Harry Styles. I know a lot of unfortunate things about the internet. That's cool. Yeah. I wish I knew less. I wish I could be in this body and mind, but I can't.

I'm over here on the weirdo side. You're in the trenches. Yeah. Yeah. I am. I'm a TikTok lesbian, dude. I know things I never wanted to know. Oh.

No, not in a fun way. Do you have an example? Too much about plants. Why are... I've gotten really into plants. I recently bought an olive tree. Wow. Well, in the past three weeks,

we've bought three olive trees. Now he's always been a big olive tree fan. I now am as well and and in our house where we put the i've pretty high ceilings in our in our living room and we bought a giant fucking uh like i guess it's a vase i don't know um you like to say that word a lot you could just say vase yeah okay i say vase i guess okay ashley i'm a vase guy you're a vase guy yeah classic i want to show you uh it's big yeah that's huge and then we got an out and so it's like it's like my favorite thing in the house right now like a nice big it's not a big but it's it will be big

in indoor i'm sure that gets a lot of sun but anyway I don't so I'm into plants yeah yeah yeah plants astrology oh yeah astrology witch shit this these are all facets of the lesbian community that I wasn't a part of

before and then oh but now you are but the internet you can't avoid it okay people will yell at you about this stuff on the internet

the discourse yeah exactly the diaspora oh yeah okay all right moving on. What LRT do we have? Yes.

Okay, so Zach and Katie have been doing, obviously, some press since last night's episodes. Something I thought was interesting was that Zach said that his Bachelor final dates aired out of order. Now, this was noticeable because Katie went first and Gabby went second. And in eight of the last ten seasons, the winner is usually the second date. But in this time, Katie was the first date and then Gabby was left with this, oh, it's the hardest decision I'll ever make. So he's saying because they were aired out of order,

actually it made him look worse and like he was dragging Gabby along because he said, that's the beauty of reality TV and editing. I'm not gonna lie about it. I didn't know when I left the last date with Gabby. I truly didn't know. And it was the moment I saw Katie after my date with Gabby that I was like, this is my

wife. There's not a doubt in my mind. I noticed that because he said on AFR, I'm using the lingo. Yeah. He said, sorry, we expected that. I've never said that in my life. Okay. But he said on AFR that he,

it sounded like it went out of order. And I was like, did they air those in a different order? I still don't believe a fucking word of he didn't know. I'm sorry. That's fair. I know my experience as a bachelor is not the same. It's a unique experience, but I just,

there's no way he wasn't at least strongly leaning. But he has a lot of guilt. He has a ton. As a person with guilt, you can see that he has so much guilt and maybe the guilt was like pulling him. I can see a world where he convinced himself he didn't know and he believes his own lie because he felt the guilt. And he has I have don't doubt for a second. He has a lot of love and certainly respect for Gabby. And there was a world where he just liked Katie Moore. Yeah. But I I don't believe for a second that if he was truly honest with himself that he didn't know that from hometowns on. truly honest with himself that he didn't know that from hometowns on yeah it's hard to imagine and i've never done the show but it is super hard to imagine because you can kind of see it in the show

like as soon as he went on that first date with katie i was like this is it this is the one he's gonna pick but you also don't know if that's editing yeah and i and i thought he was with gabby until the very i would have guessed gabby up until probably hometown fantasy suite week. Yeah. So, and he said he was falling in love with Gabby like during the sex week. Yeah, no, I think,

but falling in love with fiasco, my favorite sex party. Yeah. On that show, but falling in love, such a, such a, such a,

such a tool. But yeah, I can believe that Zach believes it, but I think deep down it's not about, he didn't know semantics. He, I, I,

and I'll never be able to prove it. Um, but I think Katie was, has, has been a clear front runner over Gabby. Just no matter how much he likes Gabby and no matter how much he might've been falling in love or even love Gabby, that Katie, there was always something more there when he saw Katie and he just decided he didn't make a decision because he never actually asked himself until

night one. But deep down, he fucking knew. Yeah. And you can kind of see it in his reaction to having to tell Katie about what happened with Gabby. Exactly. He was a mess. I mean, he was just a total mess.

And he was prioritizing only that because it made him look bad because he didn't tell like Ariel. So he's already kind of like having this weird double standard and then he's violating gabby's privacy so he risked all of that just to make sure him and katie were like on good terms communication so and again like consciously subconsciously like fucking new and and gabby knew that he knew do you have these hard conversations with like with i just can't even imagine zach sitting here being like you fucking knew uh i would love to i don't think at this point zach probably won't do my podcast um but um yeah we have we have some hard-hitting questions but we like to create a i would probably be a little more playful i I'd probably be more like, come on. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. I just think it's fun. I apologize for lifting the, no, that's fine. But I also, yeah,

like, well, for example, last night with Ariel, like I asked her about, you know, she was very clear. She talked,

you know, I completely agree with her, loved her, you know, comments about like, you took away my agency. It's not about like, again,

Zach has the right to not want to have sex. It's not about that. It comments about like you took away my agency it's not about like again zach has the right to not want to have sex it's not about that it's about like you just decided and didn't even ask my opinion you know so totally get that i just think once zach decided once zach um fucked up so to speak as he claims and made the mistake with gabby in the sense that he broke the promise i get where a Ariel's coming from and saying that she, you know, and hey, we're an open relationship. The parameters are our expectations.

But like also realistically, I think we would have just had another Clayton. I think Bachelor Nation would have roasted. Yeah. He was in a no-win situation. No-win situation. So like, yeah, like either way, you can criticize him.

And it's like, I don't think there's a clear answer. And I guess we just have to take Ariel at her word that she would have wanted to know rather than being like, why the fuck are you telling me this? But again, also, I think the big distinction is I'm under the assumption that once he hooked up with gabby uh that ariel's going home yes you know and so if he was going to tell ariel uh that he slept with gabby he would in the

same conversation be like and i'm breaking up with you yeah and that's brutal yeah i understand not one and that seems like a big fuck you. That would be different if like, Hey, I had to set an expectation with you. I don't know what I'm going to do yet. I still, I'm in the middle of the week, but I should have told you.

And I guess now that I'm rethinking it out loud, I suppose Ariel has a point because Zach did take her to, uh, the rose ceremony and made her sit around all week. I guess you could argue that somewhere in that in that week Zach should have said hey I haven't made it to this thing so you know

but either way he was in a no win situation we could definitely criticize the choice but I don't think there's a clear like he just fucked up deciding to like announce it to the entire audience like some sort of hero that he wasn't going to have sex that's the other part of it that feels like off to me and i don't know with if his producers or

sean low just sean low is actually like the dick cheney of the bush administration he's running the whole thing no he's actually Mike Fleiss' new replacement. But like, I don't know what it was, but like there's nothing heroic about making that decision. Like that is for, and while it is his decision if he doesn't want to have sex, it's just such a conversation for the couple.

It's so clearly a conversation for the couple, each couple. Well, and he kind of, as ariel said took away their agencies and reverted to zach the bachelor as opposed to zach their boyfriend because it wasn't right a conversation it was you are a contestant on a show it is my show i will lay out the rules behave absolutely and it's like the strice and effect of like i know that people call this sex week it's like well Streisand effect of like, I know that people call this sex week. It's like, well, now we fucking are. Yes, yes, yes, yes. They did. But now we definitely are. So we have Zach to thank for that, actually.

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Well, I was going to say, I think we should hit on Gabby getting out of the car. That was an iconic moment. So big. Truly iconic. To have someone in her position, having been in her position twice, to have that level of honesty with yourself to just be like

i just know they're not gonna pick me and like i tried to have that conversation with myself i'll be just like no you're not gonna be it but like either way i'm sure they were saying the same thing to her she just she she tried that as a gabby is someone who trusts her gut that moment told me that she no matter what she listens to herself and her internal feelings because that is a world that at every angle wants you to doubt your intuition, whatever your gut tells you. And you certainly have plenty of people around you.

If you're not doubting your own intuition, they'll help you. I feel so corny.'m like learning about myself right now in having in having this conversation do tell about i i don't want to sound too like pluggy but i'm i'm in the middle of editing my special i literally called them before my comedy special and i'm so nervous about how the world is going to interpret the internet telling me what to do and like the people in the room and watching it on the screen. And I'm like, oh, man, like my gut's so good. Yeah.

Like why? You can't let anyone tell you anything. Listen to your body. Yeah. You just need a little Nick Viall before it gets released. I need Gabby. Don't give him the credit. I need Gabby.

Gabby's the one. She's cute. She's demonstrated it. Like in that atmosphere, I just don't think that is a point that people shouldn't miss. That moment and what it really means. Other than being a great friend and selfless, but there are plenty of runner-ups

that they just know they're not it. And they play the part of sad and disappointment, but they just fucking know. And then there are other runner-ups who are fucking devastated and certainly gabby is one of those devastated people so it is not like she this was an easy thing for her to just admit out loud yeah and first to herself but she is a person who clearly listens to her gut um so yeah what i absolutely loved and you knew what her gut was feeling from when she got out of the car and her i love women can i just say i just fucking love

women like only women would do this she gets out of the car her dress hits the mud or whatever and she's like oh you shouldn't park here like don't do this too she says fuck no first and she said that's a really muddy spot when it actually matters when katie arrives don't do this to. She says, fuck no first. And she said, that's a really muddy spot when it actually matters. When Katie arrives, don't do that. She was almost like, I know what Katie's about to happen with Katie. Don't fuck up this. Yeah. Don't fuck up her.

Like the integrity, the gut feeling. Like it was just like. Kind of a hero moment. She's so likable. She's so incredibly likable. I think this is a hot take and the only wrinkle in this take is that they did start filming prior

to the finale but these people can make adjustments but based off of seeing the finale and how gut-wrenching that goodbye was and how likable Gabby is and just how funny and open she has so many of the qualities that they love in a bachelorette

and not to take anything away from charity i'm sure she'll be wonderful you know how much drama i don't know but like everyone i've talked to loves her has nothing but nice things to say to her that being said and knowing that gabby is clearly is like is and i've heard as much is still like messed up about this and and still not fully healed from this experience that they offered her the bachelorette and she turned it down there's just no way they wouldn't i just there's just no way or or the only reason they didn't offer it to her is because they knew that she's like she's still heartbroken and the fact that she's heartbroken as bad as they wanted her to be the Bachelorette,

that her story wasn't done being told because AFR is part of the season and they couldn't sell someone ready for love given how distraught she was. But there is just no way she wouldn't have been the Bachelorette if she was emotionally ready to be the Bachelorette and wanted to be the Bachelorette. I just don't see how that's not possible with that. She pitched a perfect game last night. Yeah. She was incredible.

It was unreal. She's so wonderful. She has this X factor of authenticity where I don't know how to put it into words or exactly why, but it's like I just really believe her. Yes. It's like you see the wheels turning in her mind in real time. And she'll like yeah it's like tell it like it is kind of unfiltered like she's not trying to curate her version of reality based on what she thinks is palatable she's just like yeah and it's so rare yeah charities seems like the person who's smart enough and emotionally

regulated enough and educated enough to like have a thought process it and be like well this is what i want to say but this sounds better and won't offend anyone and like we'll get my point across the same way and which is totally a wonderful quality as well it's just like not as fun good person excellent person yes not necessarily the best tv so but we'll see we might learn a lot more about charity certainly we and we certainly hope, and other people have surprised us. Not everyone was on board with the Hannah Brown choice. Oh, I was. And she, I actually, I was.

But a lot of people weren't, and she ended up being arguably the most entertaining and best bachelorette of all time. The only thing I find interesting is because we've heard how upset Gabby is and how maybe that's the reason that she wasn't ready to be the bachelorette and she's devastated and she doesn't want to talk about all this. But I also find it interesting that Katie has said today, actually, that she and Gabby are still very close friends. They've gone on trips together.

A lot of the girls came to Austin for the premiere, including Gabby, Ariel, Jess, and Mercedes. They're all going on a girls' trip at the end of April. So I just find it a little interesting. I'm like you're that devastated but you're flying to Austin to see your ex's fiance to watch the premiere together you can't be that fucked up about it I suppose or you're in the phase of fucked up where you just want to scratch like you want to pick at the yes I was gonna say I also think she's just like a brave person she just seems to like I don't know she really liked Katie on this season you know they seem to be

actually pretty solid friends they had their bubble baths I live for the bubble bath scene they were dancing at the witchy scene all the outtakes at the end of the episodes were just the two of them hanging out having fun but yeah no I think

I really relate to Gabby just on an emotional level and i could see why like i'm not gonna lose a friend just because i lost a a partner yeah she could be torturing herself i don't think she's that good of an actor no i don't think so and she looked really messed up about the whole thing last night so well and it was also i mean the premiere she doesn't know at this point how much has been disclosed on national television about her sex life like she said it's been so much worse watching it back because she didn't know the full magnitude of like what was shared and I'll be honest I was a little confused by that just because like if they told her on camera she was mic'd there were

at least two cameras around her but maybe the conversation it was hard for me to tell whether she was more upset about the tv aspect or the talking to other women aspect because i think both are pretty important but also katie at the rose ceremony said i know you slept with him so i just a little confused by what gabby meant by that because we we know that kat Katie told her that... I know you were the one. You know you were the one. We know that Gabby knew she was being recorded

because there were cameras in the room and she is on a TV show. So I'm just like, what does she mean by not realizing? So the quote from AFR is, I wish you'd warned me you were going to use my name and tell everyone what happened. In the quote from AFR is, I wish you'd warned me you were going to use my name and tell everyone what happened.

In the hotel room, it was, I don't want there to be secrets, but it was never, hey, this is what happened, and it was with Gabby. Yeah, I think it's about telling the other women in that case. And I think maybe she thought

he would kind of share my expectations, like, you know, just kind of vague, keep it kind of like private. that that that quote doesn't really because what the debate is Gabby saying I found out when everyone else found out last week it's not the frustration with his choice to you know do that we all kind of agree that she has the right to be upset about that it's just more i i don't get what she means by she didn't know i think she's talking about the specifics of uh my name and tell everyone what happened so it seems to me that she's saying like i thought he would keep it anonymous as saying like i had an intimate relationship with someone i guess he could i guess he did actually have the opportunity to be like,

it went a little further than I wanted it to go. And it doesn't necessarily imply sex. It could be, you know, it could be any type of sex. But also if she didn't know until last week, let's say, she didn't know that the other women knew or that he said it on the show. How do you go on a girl's trip with katie who's recently engaged i don't buy it knowing that you've slept with her fiance thinking she doesn't know it doesn't yeah i mean love gabby and i don't really care but

i also don't i have questions i have questions about that i think it's probably more of how it was handled and maybe she's not articulating it in that way. But I think it was more of a, how it was handled. Yeah. Like I didn't get the full scope of how fucked up you burned me. The Catholic guilt is so insane. The way he was confessing. Like, Oh, I was like,

I was zooming in on his childhood. I was seeing, he was going to do the act of contrition. Yeah. Hail Marys were coming. Yeah. And that's, it's well,

again, he made so many bad mistakes. I really, I really, you know, as tough as I've been on Zach, which, and when we talk about the show, we're not criticizing people. We don't know the people that are on an edited TV show. We're criticizing the behaviors and we reserve judgment. But like, yeah, it's just like, yeah, he fucked up. but like yeah it's just like yeah he fucked up but like zach from everything i've heard through multiple people he is including ariel he is a well-intentioned yeah nice guy who is a high character who you know certainly has a lot to learn might be a little ignorant in other departments but like you know the the just the nastiness that people and will speak about who he is as a person is nuts to me.

And again, in an environment where he got no good advice. Yeah, Sean Lowe's not like, hey, manage your religious trauma. Yeah. Exactly. Sean Lowe's like, we need to instill more religious trauma. Yeah. Sean Lowe's like, open up your shirt. Let me scrub that chest for you, bad boy.

Either way, I doubt Gabby wanted Zach to feel anything but amazing about that experience. And the fact that he doesn't, I'm sure made her self-conscious. Yeah. Well, and it sounds like she felt so blindsided because in the moment he was feeling amazing about the experience. She alluded in after the final rose to talking about how they talked about insecurities and like aspirations, how they got deep on mental health and emotional health. So it seems like they really did have this like connected transformative night really nice yeah

she said the the physical intimacy conversation was like five minutes of their entire night or something along those lines and then he sealed it with a kiss on the back of the head and said no one will know and then he told america i don't think he said no one will know. He said this is between us. Which actually sounds dirtier. This is just between us. It's like a drug deal. That's so rough though. The transition from between us to I need to tell God about this.

God and Sean Lowe. God and America. One and the same. Sean Lowe goes in investments. It is really fucked up that if he did tell Gabby, this is just between us. But yeah, but that's what I think that she was like, maybe it's getting muddled in the timeline,

but I think that's why she's upset because he really actually could have said, I went further than I intended to with someone. And I have to keep it between, all of that between me and that person and that could have been it I'm guessing he got the worst advice

that week oh yeah you should definitely tell everyone and you should tell them it's gay and I have no reason to know this for sure take her to the rainiest part of the forest where she's going to be the most uncomfortable where her feet are in water

and tell her there escape but do you think she's leaving she's smart uh what did you guys think of zach and katie on afr like how what vibes were you picking up do you feel like they're whatever you know yeah it was kind of bland i do love it though when uh when a pic will roast the bachelor doesn't happen the other way just uh when the pic to be a male rights activist right now uh just to flip it for you doesn't happen a lot you don't see a lot of the men roasting the bachelorettes for their mistakes but you do see the bit you do see the bachelorettes being like, well, you were kind of a fucking tool. No. Women tell all, men tell all,

they all stand up and applaud the bachelorette. It's just like... It's like they salute. Women tell all, it's like, fuck you. I deserve better. I deserve someone who loves me. It is sort of like the airing of the patriarchal grievances at the women tell all, I'm for it. Yeah, I mean, whatever, you know, but it is sort of like the airing of the patriarchal grievances at the women tell all i'm for it yeah i mean whatever you know but it is after centuries of being yelled at oh how the

tides have turned what do we think about like they did talk about kind of like logistics about moving to austin how zach is going to move to austin in the summer did he live there and move home yeah it sounded like everyone keeps saying he lived in Austin. They're going to live in New York for a while? I think they're going to New York. Where are they? Gotta get that influence money. Oh, yeah. So it said they're going to New York shortly after, and then he said, I'm packing up all my

stuff and moving to Austin this summer. This summer, okay. And it sounds by saying I'm packing up all my stuff and moving to Austin, it implies that I've heard they're doing well. They're very much in love, so we'll see. They do seem like By saying I'm packing up all my stuff and moving to Austin, it implies that. Yeah, where is he? I've heard they're doing well. They're very much in love. So we'll see.

They do seem like a good fit. Yeah. You know. It should be boring, I think. Yeah. Yeah. If Gabby ended up with Zach, you'd be like, there's a lot to deal with before you guys can. There's probably too much damage I think was done.

Yeah. There was unrestorative. And I do think he is well-intentioned and I think he certainly showed humility. You know, he apologized for as much as he could. He's not the best apologizer. He does like to do it though. Well, interesting enough when we had Ariel, like before we started recording, she mentioned that she noticed even while filming, that he rarely ever apologized.

He would recognize his mistake and then like, yeah, I could have handled it better and I shouldn't have done that, but often wouldn't apologize. There's a stat about that, that women will apologize for less and men, it takes a higher threshold to actually like and to that end like if nothing else even if he is a high character well-intentioned nice guy zach is he is like the definition of a guy he is just such a dude yeah you know like he is so guy in the most guy way so every every guy stereotype i think applies yeah to zach even the nice ones yeah yeah you know i don't think he strays outside just like you know if aliens come down and say like let me see your most man man yeah yeah yeah you know your most basic ordinary man what does he do zach will come out sell software so did i zach apologizes the

way like i like reach for my purse on a first date with a man you know where it's like oh do you want me to like when the check comes like i feel like you never quite reach it he never quite says i'm sorry he talks about the concept of apologizing but he doesn't actually say i'm sorry right you know yeah but either way i think he's a well-intentioned nice guy uh and i yeah katie and him we'll see i don't know i mean i think yeah i think zach's open to taking a note i don't know if zach's good communicator but i think i think katie is yeah she is i think zach's humble enough to uh and it seems like he has good parents who at least nothing else. He's got an apron that says happy wife, happy life. Yes, 100%. You know what I mean?

He's not necessarily falling through on it, but the concept. And when he's in trouble, he'll subscribe to that and things like that. It's like a passive a passive um not really taking in what's happening but you're like okay you'll you can win the fight type of thing yeah it wouldn't shock me if they work out you know yeah so i think katie's bisexual just to drop a bomb into what's giving it giving it away? There was just a lot of physical moments on the season between the women that I was like,

this is more than I've ever seen. And a lot of them, Katie was in them. Theory. Maybe just physical touch. The reason Gabby is so upset is not to do it. Oh my fucking God. Great theory. Because her girlfriend is engaged to him now

i just this is lesbian fan i feel like what we're doing right now i need a disclaimer here that these are the opinions of my guests and not me listen i'm projecting i would like katie to be gay i'm manifesting let's just right i'm vision boarding live right now so this is not based on anything real other than my incredibly accurate gay do you have a good one oh i have a great gay car yeah but i i will say you have to meet someone in person okay you cannot do it through the screen nothing would be more awesome than a gabby and Katie love affair. That would be. And the catalyst for the demise of Zach and Katie.

That would be. God. Awesome. We go back and the lip syncing for Katie was not, I know you were the one. Yeah, you go back. I know you are the one. All the Easter eggs you'd look for and shit like that. I'm just messing around. Yeah.

It's not nice to actually speculate about people's sexuality and if I actually thought this was serious, I would not be speculating. It is totally unfounded, ungrounded, projecting my fantasies. But man, they'd have beautiful babies. That's a real fantasy suite right there. And you know

what? In lesbian fashion, they probably wouldn't have sex. They would probably just talk about their feelings all night. Sharing an ex and they're sharing an ex super gay okay uh people uh do fall in love on that show that even even straight people yeah you're just sharing feelings and spending all your time with each other that's why a gay lead would just be so difficult to pull off what do you mean because no one would remember who the lead is oh yes yes you know it's just like if i were like paradise you know it'd be paradise right right everyone would be an option right exactly and then it would out all these good-looking people who are spending all this time with each other talking about their

feelings you would they would literally not give a shit about... And the truth is, every season, everyone acts like, oh, Zach, every woman is just like, Zach's the best. And while Zach, I'm sure, has all these great qualities, I think some of them truly fell in love with him.

Some of them genuinely liked him. Other people convinced themselves they liked him because it's like, we're here. You're at summer camp. And it's literally the only guy you're seeing. He's the hot guy at summer camp. He's in a position of power. He has the control.

It's not hard to fall in love with these people. But at a bar? Right. I don't think all the... None of the people show up head over heels for the lead. So it's just not their type. In a house full of all these options, I just think it would just logistically...

But Bachelor Australia had a bisexual lead. That's fun. And I really would have wanted to know how they... Oh, don't you worry, because I found a way to change my VPN so I could watch it. Oh my gosh. I would really love to know. I got to watch it too. It was a great show. I'd a way to change my VPN so I could watch it. Oh, my gosh. I would really love to know. I got to watch it, too.

It was a great show. I'd really love to know how they pulled that off. I have a concept called Les Island, where you split everyone up by tops and bottoms. Love it. Oh. So one of the most fun parts about- Versus get out. The wheels in your head turning.

Tops and bottoms. Wait, so they're not wearing clothing in the other half? I got gotta think these three i'm a visual person you know i gotta no but one of the best parts about the uh bachelorette australia was when they were doing the limo entrances and people were coming in one of the women who came in was actually from her past season of the bachelor they were both contestants and like had thought that they were maybe like feeling a little spark but never acted on it so she showed up like night one she was like let's give it a try i love that yeah wow yeah

because it's like no way in hell would i say if i like you know what i mean if like you're a bisexual woman who's like vibing with a woman on the show no way are you gonna like even go near that well i mean well i'm gay i wouldn't be on the show. We might see a lot more progressive dating, even terminology or just more structures or the willingness to say, hey, we've never had even a bisexual lead. And while maybe a gay lead might be more hard to pull off, but bisexual, maybe there's something there

that we can still keep the structure of the show. Right. You don't need to be dating a woman to be a bisexual woman. maybe there's something there that we can still keep the structure of the show. You don't need to be dating a woman to be a bisexual woman. I will say, like, I know this is going to maybe sound weird for some people who know who I am, but like just to have any kind of representation would be super cool. So, yeah, people sometimes roast people for like dating show formats, but I actually do think it is tricky to reimagine a lot of these shows because it's not just that they're grounded in sexuality. They're grounded in rules. So it is you do have to like totally be like just rip the whole thing apart. It's a different show. Start over.

Yeah. Right. You know, it's just like they would do it correctly. Yeah. It would just be a different show that like they should just call it something else yeah yeah yeah like i think perfect match was a perfect example of a show where like the format lent itself to like and paradise for sure paradise definitely and they had with demi but like they could go out of their way to try to cast like why haven't we had a bisexual man before and openly you know america are you ready for a bisexual man women kissing america's ready for i know i i don't know i would love it i'd bring us

a biking yeah yeah please uh but i wonder i don't know if i don't know if we'll have that next season but i wonder if the new new people in charge might be more open to that or will they stay old school yeah i hope they i don't give a shit about the sexuality part keep it straight i don't care i just do want to see more raw real like emotional situation the other thing i want to see is like them the contestants being baited a little bit like going out when they're on maybe the travel portion like they've been starved of validation and attention that they are so used to because they're on maybe the travel portion, like they've been starved of validation and attention that they are so used to because they're all like the hottest person

at their high school hometown. And then like have some plants who come in and like flirt with them and just kind of like see what happens. Oh, other. You want more manipulation. Other people of the opposite sex. Yeah, like I'm talking like the locals

or like you just kind of put them in a situation. Locals, phenomenal idea. Get some townies. Yeah. Some rugged men. Some Swiss lumberjack. Yeah, just showing up to the pub. Yeah, that would be, it's tough,

like logistically, you know, psych test, blood test, all those things, if they are a real part of the show. They certainly have included exes and things like that. But yeah, but you're like you want you want paid actors to tempt people on group dates yeah yeah and like just like see how flirty they get like i don't think logistically they would ever like fuck someone i don't think that like anybody would do that no they could literally it wouldn't be that hard to hire models oh wait no no no this happened wasn't it hannah brown season and all the guys did that dog shoot and they had the hair and makeup artist kind of

be like so how long have you been on the show like yeah are you finding love but it's like a little cheese but i think we're talking more like in the wild really like really like really this show is psychological torture like now that we're producing a fake version of it, I'm like, oh, I don't want to hurt anybody. No, it's psychological warfare. Yeah, you really have to be emotionally strong, I think, to get through that stuff and dodge everything. Yeah. Totally.

That's why I just like, again, I love recapping it and I love snarky jokes, but we don't know these people. And for all the people no ethical consumption when i see the tiktoks of people like critiquing and we love talking relationships and dating on the show on like a high level but like i see people like talking about various red like i saw one tiktok where it was about like it was a red flag that zach gave because it was it was saying how it was a red flag that zach talked about how uh like gabby and katie made him feel and that was a red flag and

i'm thinking what like most people don't consider how people make them feel right yeah and give a shitty people way too much run rate to treat them like shit because they care too much about like that they're six two or that they're you know they think they're hot or you know they're they don't think they'll find someone else and i'm like are you happy they're like not really you know so it's just like the that people will watch this show and like you know call zach like the worst guy to date of all time where i'm just like holy shit like you have no anything like that yeah any internet comment is a projection of whatever they've got going on in their life at the time yeah i don't know it's uh why wouldn't you want i don't know what he said but like for me like my girlfriend makes me feel so safe. And I love that.

Great. Like why, why wouldn't I want someone to make me feel safe? Yeah. Cared for, prioritized, valued, you know, like that's way more important than being like, well, I love her because like she has a degree in economics. Right. Yeah. Okay.

Like, great. It would sound better. It's like, I love that we'd have intellectual conversations i love how she makes me feel like i feel stimulated stimulated by her you know like what the fuck you know anyways people have all sorts of different opinions on the internet so you're excited to see charity as bachelorette oh my god i'm excited to just see the show continue okay amazing and undercover brother that was i i don't hate that idea. They could hire like some really hottie.

Some, you know, where... Bachelor doesn't matter, but they could hire some hotties that... And they can structure group dates

and their group dates are often in the wild where... Yeah, someone's like, you know, an employee at the show and they're just super fucking the models are flirty as fuck and you just see who's who's doing that and i don't you don't tell the

bachelorette and you don't even tell the audience i don't want them to go we're you know the whole thing they did with charity and her brother which was like he puts on the stupid fucking wig right stupid mustache like Like, no. Your ABC, your Warner Brothers, get some real fucking makeup artists in there. And if you think these guys might realize it's Charity's brother, then give them a real disguise and see if you can trick some people.

And don't tell your lead that they are hiring models. And then have one of the guys narc on the other guy who's flirting it up with one of the models that would be that would be great i mean the audience bachelor nation is always like these are plants plants they have all these plants you know what the show should fucking do start having plants they get accused of it every fucking season they should start doing it they don't but they should it's really funny that they had him put on a fake mustache too, as if anyone would come in with a fake mustache. No, the article that I was reading about it

literally described it as a mustache ripped off of Steve Harvey's face, I believe, is how they described it. Yeah, it was clearly a fake mustache. No one's coming in on night one in a fake mustache they they could given that it's night one of the bachelor and people are coming in all sorts of different things they could be like yeah i decided to be goofy and wear a fucking mask because i don't know like i don't i like wigs i don't know's... Wig guy in the thing. Do you wear wigs?

No, I did not. Yeah, wig enthusiast. You can see the chyron now. I don't know. That would be iconic if someone's whole shtick as a contestant on The Bachelor was that they were in disguise

at all times. Not once did they dress like a normal... like they would typically dress. It was all deception. And it was like, I want them to fall in love with me for who I am.

I don't want this to be a fashion competition or something about my looks but it's like them and like absurd that disguise guy yeah that would be something oh have you are you are you following the guinness paltrow trial at all oh i know a little bit about it i have not been following the trial but i know that there was a publicity stunt to hide the trial or to like move direction away.

They tried to hide the trial? Like they were, the whole thing with Gwyneth saying like, okay, here's, get ready with me. Here's what I drink

in the morning. And she's like, I have a cup of coffee and then I don't eat for three days. Yeah, she's like, I,

cause she's detoxifying. Is that a conspiracy theory that she deliberately tried to sabotage herself? The theory, and I am so not good at pop culture, but the theory is that that was to distract from the trial. But in my opinion, why draw any attention to yourself at all? Yeah, I'd be like, just a reminder, I'm out of touch and I promote eating habits that a lot of people would consider eating disorders for themselves.

I do not buy that theory because one, to your point, why, if you're going to create a distraction, why would you, why would that distraction get you in trouble with the eating disorder community? I don't know. As a, as a publicist, I feel like that's not a beehive that I want to upset. Right. It's a very sensitive topic, you know, and rightfully so. And also like it's Gwyneth Palt, and it's a trial that's being recorded. It's accessible to anyone. How are they going to hide that? Right, right.

I don't think you just lean in, I guess. From whatever you know, however little it is, are you team random dude or are you team Gwyneth? It sounds like two, uh, both teams are very rich. Well, obviously one team is, but the other team was just rich enough to be able to sue and have a chance to sue Gwyneth Paltrow.

So I'm team, uh, America is crumbling. Uh, why is, why is this, why are we watching this? why is this, why are we watching this?

This is a symptom of a society that's falling apart. Two wealthy people just trying to sue the shit out of each other. I don't know. I guess, I don't, I guess the devil I don't know, the rich, the victims, quote unquote. Yeah. Well, they did make a full recreation. Like they made models. Did they send people down the mountain? Of like what they think it would have looked like but it kind of

cuts out at the good part but it's like a full this is a pretty flat trail who came up is this her team or his trail you can tell oh yeah so what happened she hit somebody and now they can't taste wine she says someone hit her hit her. She says she was hit from behind. And this article from the New York Post ends by saying she originally thought she was being sexually assaulted. So I think for her, this was a really jarring, out of nowhere life. On the slopes? I mean, yes, believe women, it can happen anywhere. But that would take some fucking coordination.

If someone ran into you. Do you know how good a skier you have to be? If someone ran into you. If someone ran into know how good a skier you have to be if someone ran into you if someone ran into you on the slopes there's a lot of layers at a rate of speed any more thing more than like five miles per hour it's not gonna feel like someone approaching you from behind you're you're gonna get bumped if you can squeeze a butt on your way down the slopes, if you squeeze my butt, okay, that's wrong, and I'm not going to say for anyone else that that's not sexual assault.

But for me, all right, good job. You got my butt. No comment on that one? No comment. I want that on the soundboard. On the slopes? It's just like I want that on repeat. You got my butt. I do. I the soundboard. On the slopes? It's just like I want that on repeat. You got my butt.

I do. Yeah, this guy seems like he's- I'm messing around. Don't pinch my butt on the slopes. This guy feels like he's full of shit and he's taking advantage of an opportunity. Yeah, yeah. As privileged as Gwyneth might be coming across

and out of touch with the common man that she seems to be, nevertheless. Right. It's not her, well, I guess we'll find out if it's her fault the best lie was like well i did lose a whole afternoon of skiing so yeah because her lawyer was like so did you like this very expensive vacation like were you able to enjoy this you weren't able to enjoy the rest of your day. And she literally goes, well, I did lose a whole afternoon of skiing.

So yes or yep. And then she like, you know, pierced the lips. It was great. It is kind of unfortunate because everyone's allowed to go on vacation. You know what I mean? So and the fact that they are just having their lives just like torn to shreds. It was so long ago. It was in 2016.

Harry and Emrata are making out. long ago too. It was in 2016. Yeah. Harry and Emrata are making out. Annoying. Oh. At clubs in Tokyo. Did you hear about that? Oh, yes, yes. I do know this one.

I didn't know that nickname, but I just put it together using my- Emily Radachowski, Harry Styles. Yes, yes. Yeah. What did you make of her dating Eric Andre to start there? Just kind of like- Isn't it great being a comedian? Comedians always nab the people you never thought would ever be in their league.

Always. Yeah. Good for him. People just want to laugh. It's like when Pete Davidson said he didn't realize how ugly he was until people on the street were coming up to him being like, you did it, bro. Thank you. Yeah.

And he's funny. But after her string of comedians, it looks like she's back in the icon, sex symbol, top of so many people's dream. Oh, yeah. I love it. She's in her fuckboy era. Oh, yeah. Which is great.

Good for her. She's getting out of a divorce. She sounds like she was cheated on. She has every right to date around. She's been linked to Brad Pitt, Harry Styles, some really big hitters. Eric Andre. Massive hitters. Eric Andre? Massive hitter.

Yeah. The biggest. I don't want to shade him. No, no, no. I think he knows. I think Eric Andre would be the first person. I don't think he'd be like, well, what do you mean?

Why wouldn't we? Why don't we put him on a list with Harry Styles? Yeah, every comedian is going to be like, yeah, I don't know how this happened. But to me this says that harry styles checks his dms you don't think he dm'd her maybe they met and exchanged numbers but like i think all celebrities whether they say they do or not checks their dms and i think if emrata dm'd harry i he probably would have responded given unless you know they could have been following

each other yeah she's pretty i mean that doesn't mean that they mean the dm wasn't sent oh yeah i was just envisioning like it back in the request maybe maybe they i heard she like went to a harry styles concert and sat next to olivia wild i don't like to speculate on rumors, but there's been allegations of a connection. Hmm. Huh. Oh, my God. Yeah. So who knows?

But I like to think that Harry checks his DMs so that if I- So that your DM will be seen? So eventually he'll respond to mine. Yeah. Have you DMed him? I have. Was it good?

How many times have you DMed him? Did you unsend one- Before you sent the other i might have i don't know i've done that that's for sure uh i don't think so because the first time i dm'd him was because he almost ran me over with his car and i was running and you were like this is gonna be a lawsuit it's gonna be televised i'm pretty sure he yeah right and i thought he was trying to bump my butt. I noticed the guy noticing me, and then I was like, I think that's Harry Styles. And then someone sent a picture of this very,

it was like this black guy. I'm 98% sure it was Harry Styles. I want to believe it was Harry Styles. And you just want to get coffee with him? Yeah, I want to be friends with Harry Styles. Does Harry Styles go and get coffee? I doubt, not with me. No. Well, he drives himself to his own shows.

That's really. He just shows up in his car. Yeah. There's tons of videos of that. That same car that he almost hit me with. He's probably listening now. I think DM him again. Sure.

Shooter's got to shoot. I'm determined to meet Harry. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. To meet Harry someday. Why him specifically? I went to, I saw him at Coachella, and I mean, like a lot of music fans do when they see someone in concert,

he's an incredible performer, and I really enjoy his music, and I think he's super cool. What he is doing is truly remarkable. I was really taken. You said he's like a proper rock star in a way that we haven't had in a while. It was like kind of. It was, yeah.

I've been to other shows. The next factor. Cool, yeah. It was cool. Like I've seen The Weeknd. It's like beautiful voice. It's like, okay, you know. But like that was an amazing performance and I'm a fan.

All right. Yeah. You want me to DM him? Yeah, if you have an in., and I'm a fan. All right. You want me to DM him? Yeah, if you have an in. DM him. Yeah, I'll do it. I just want to let you know that a friend of mine thinks you're a great performer. You may know him. He's your proper monster.

You may have almost run him over. I heard he's a Basher fan. He is a Green Bay Packer fan. I'm a Green Bay Packer fan. Just saying. He's a Green Bay Packer fan. I'm a Green Bay Packer fan. Just saying. He's a Green Bay Packer fan? Yeah. No way.

He is. He has a Green Bay Packer tattoo. What? Yes. Are you sure it's not something else? 100% a Green Bay Packer. Is Harry Styles a Green Bay Packer fan? Google.

Don't you know it. Why? I don't know. I think he went to a game and it was like a British experience that was cool. And it's like Wisconsin and cheese. Very American.

It's an iconic kind of franchise. Yeah, he has a G logo on the inside of his arm right above the elbow after losing a wager with his friends. So it seems like

he genuinely loved the Packers and then he made a bet and then he didn't want it but he made a bet i'm guessing he followed he's not a packer fan like i'm a packer fan but he went to like lambeau field or met a aaron rogers and was like and then when people ask him what's his favorite american football team sure he says the packers and then he's like this one right here yeah i don't think he's as invested in the aaron rogers trade to the jets as i am but you know i digress you know i don't know maybe he is and i'll want to talk a lot with you harry if you're listening

you guys should start a sports podcast together oh my god don't tempt him with a good time you tease uh i think that would be your fanfic would be you and harry talking green bay Packers. Someone write it. Send it in. I don't know if you guys read emails. No, yeah. Please ask Nick at thebiophiles.com. Send us your fanfic about Nick and Harry.

There you go. Nick and Harry fanfic in the summer. Do we have anything to get into before we let Ashley go? I mean, we can talk about Scandival, the latest. Oh, what's the latest on that? Are you following the Vanderpump at all? This one is really out of my depth, but I've read some of the apologies. I haven't watched Vanderpump.

This is my first season watching. Plan to go back and watch the rest. I've never watched, but I will start if you guys tell me to. I've never watched. If you want mess, I'm going to sell you right here. The Bachelor, we love.

It's great. They have some good drama, sex week, but a lot of the people especially is it young fun to watch young messy people sure but sometimes young messy people are just like all they are is messy there's not a lot of complexity and layers to their drama or trauma etc etc and vanderpump is a show that like just has a bunch of people who have been on tv for like 10 15 years some of which have been part of scandals in the past have done the cheating and it's all these real life

situations and some people have matured and heal others have not there's just these affairs and it's like it is fucking it's good it's meat meaty. I'm not going to say who, but I am connected via my childhood. I grew up in New York, a real housewife of New York. And I knew her before she did the show. And I met her about a year ago again. And oh my God, that is not the same human being. That changed her in a profound way. to be yeah like people i always i always get asked you know it's like one of those like you know red carpet questions that us weekly

be like so you ever would you ever do your tv show like no one's asking me to do a tv show but like they always like would you ever with your girlfriend it's like no it's like yeah i mean i don't know what the structure is but like a tv show about your life and just where like you have to be dramatic to be interesting you have to have issues to resolve and that's my fascination with vanderpump because like i've been i've gotten to know some of the people and i that i quite like and i really enjoy and i haven't asked them this because it's like, I, and when I watch it, I,

I don't even know if they know where like reality. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the show bleed over with the choices they make for their life. Yeah. And where, well,

bachelors is kind of fucked up bubble and psychological where warfare. It's like, it is a bubble that you like leave and you're like oh reality you know where if you're filming an ongoing show about your life and it just like kind of follows you along by like season three or four you're you must you have to come up with shit and then i feel like by season five or six, you don't know the difference between why you picked this fight versus, you know, was it for the show

or am I actually mad or why am I making this choice? Is it, you know, I'm so fascinated by why they do what they do and how, like, in the psychology behind it, it's really good. Yeah. Yeah, maybe I'll give it a shot.

Part of that scares me a little bit. That why the bachelor is kind of safe these people get out yeah well i will say you could start season 10 and be and be hooked the thing that sold me on season one i didn't realize that the fundamental premise is everyone in a restaurant is fucking like that is the show is like what like everyone in a restaurant's fucking there's always so much drama let's film them they're all also aspiring actors like there's just like baked into the premise. This like inherent drama versus like with other reality shows where there's some kind of like format or something that gives you like a reality world. Like this show is like constantly breaking the fourth wall and was like born from such like authentic fuckery that like it's blossomed into a magnitude of fuckery. Yeah, I don't know. It's it's really fascinating but anyways i'm a fan what's the update tom sandoval wants to make it work with

raquel of course he does and so we saw photos from them like during the man who can't possibly be alone for a moment yeah and who's on everyone's the one shooting on everybody yeah also did you see that he and raquel got dinner i guess after the filming of the reunion he like took her to some restaurant and it was the same restaurant he took ariana to to celebrate their nine-year anniversary i'm already like what is wrong with this person so many things that's so why would you ever well just if you're gonna cheat right this is a different restaurant maybe yeah different spot he's not i't, he doesn't seem to be particularly bright, but I love telling this story

that, for those who don't know, and I've told everyone, most people who have, who are listening to this episode know, but he, you would learn this if you watch the show, but this is the guy who, at 39, I don't, that sounded aggressive, I'm sorry. No, no, no, I'm not. Oh, watch the fucking

show, Jesus. I i was i was saying that to the to the listener like who's watched the show and asking me why i'm repeating the story but that was aggressive no i'm messing around uh we're riffing we're riffing so tom sandoval 39 ish years old started a band where he just like is hiring people to play and practice with them for the sole purpose of like playing cover songs so that you know 20 or 30 like fans on a friday night can that he can like you know get attention from okay that that's lame that's who he is okay and i just think that's all you need to know you gotta be one hell of a musician to pull off the like band name format of like one name and group of something well you can do that when you're when you're like i'm starting

a band and i'm paying you're not like hey we should start a band we love music it's like i'll i'll give you fifty dollars an hour right right right play with me yeah yeah and perform with me yeah yeah because it's like there's a lot one thing about it's not to become an artist it's just it's just to play in front of crowds. Did anyone hear the clip of him? He recently performed the song, I'm Gonna Be, the like 500 miles song,

and did it in a fake Scottish accent. That way now, wake up. I mean, no. He definitely, I don't think he takes himself that seriously, which might be part of his problem, but I'm sure he's just having fun. He did not deliver it in a humorous way.

You think he was serious? Really? He was in earnest. Yes. He was earnest there video yes that's weird and the thing everybody says about like british singers is like you can't even hear the accent like you know like most people's singing voices are not right i was gonna say i was gonna do an adele riff but it wouldn't have made sense because you can't tell this is the really the one song. And I'll wake up. Yeah. Gonna be the man. I can't even do it.

Honestly, that was better than what he did. No paid musicians. Anyway, so he wants to date Raquel. Yeah. He and his shiny pants. Is Raquel the... The other woman. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Ten years younger. Recently had to exit the pageant world because she aged out. I'm assuming the wife wants nothing to do with this guy anymore or the girlfriend. Girlfriend. Yeah, I believe it's a, well, I don't know if clean break, but it appears as though she's definitive departure from the relationship. Yeah.

Yeah, shocking. It doesn't seem as though a reconciliation is in the cards. Everyone knows this story yeah in the mid-season trailer he said can i what do you want anything as he's like in the kitchen and she goes for you to die yeah yeah you should start watching she's powerful shit yeah i just want to talk about with you i want to dm you okay i'll start watching and yeah yeah start a group dm with harry styles see if he participates oh yeah we should do a

three way chat yes and it's just you guys going off back and forth and like Harry you're missing every once in a while

we just check in Harry you're missing out I'm gonna start a group chat right now okay yeah we need a tiebreaker Harry come on

and you call it Vanderpump slash Bachelor Discourse I'll do it This is amazing. Can't wait. All right. All right. When you're done, and then we'll have you plug all your stuff.

Oh, yeah. I should plug it. This is one of the whole reasons I'm here, I suppose. But this was honestly so much fun. Yeah, it was absolutely a ton of fun. I know that this is this is gonna sound cheesy but like this really meant a lot to me oh because like i'm like i'm in my own little corner of the internet and obviously like i'm doing well for myself or whatever but like you often get in your

head as like am i just gonna be that thing you know forever so to be here and just like talking about something totally just like one teeny part of my life which that i love which is the bachelor and i've been watching you forever and i listened to the podcast is great like thank you so much for having me thanks for coming we loved having you super valid welcome back anytime this podcast made me feel safe this podcast makes me feel loved and secure and that's okay that's okay that's not a red flag that's not a red flag at all i have a special coming out it's free for if you thought i was funny for two seconds it's going to be free on youtube just go to my youtube just put in ashley gavin hit subscribe turn on the

notifications it comes out on april 23rd and uh yeah the internet is like kind of where comedy's happening right now amazing and then like t TikTok, I know you're big. Where can people follow you? If you just search Ashley Gavin, my handle is ashgavs on everything. Go and give me a follow. And I tour all over the place, you know, no matter where you are, there's some theater or club that I'm going to come and do. So I'll send you a text when I'm in your city. If you go to any of, just go to my bio on any social media or ashleygavin.com.

I love the TikToks that you take when you're on tour of the interactions you have with fans and everything. She's a great follow, folks. Really, really worth it. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me. Yeah. Well, come back anytime, especially if you start watching Vanderpump. And you and Harry as well.

Oh, yeah. That'd be great. I'm not even going to do that. Thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget to send in those questions at AskNickAtTheVileFiles.com for all things Ask Nick and texting office hours. Don't forget, we have Katie Maloney back on Tuesday for Freestyle kicking off now that we're in the off season. We got another episode of Better Date Than Never tonight live, 9 p.m. Eastern. We're talking what?

Getting caught. Getting caught by, I don't know, exes or I guess, I think there's gonna be a lot of parents getting caught stories, but maybe at work. I don't know, but getting caught by uh i don't know exes or i guess i think there's gonna be a lot of parents getting caught stories but maybe at work i don't know but getting caught anyways if uh you're lonely or bored i want to make some friends maybe move to a new city you don't know anyone the uh group chat pops off on the show it's turned into a great community of people very supportive uh if you ever have a date you want to break down with us or want to get some live advice, make sure you tune in and join. It's a ton of fun. Update episode

is out tomorrow. That's not behind Vile Files Plus. It's available to all. The update special we do every month. If you are dying for more updates, we do two every month in addition to the one we're dropping tomorrow behind Vile Files Plus. Again, if you can't listen live to Better Day Than Never, all the episodes're dropping tomorrow behind Vile Files Plus. Again, if you can't listen live to Better Day Than Never,

all the episodes are also available behind Vile Files Plus. Plus, we get into the weeds tomorrow of Love... Do you watch Love is Born? Yes, I do. Are you watching season four? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any hot takes? Oh, no.

It's not a hot take, but this is, I mean, like... It's really good. Some of the most childish behavior I've ever seen. Holy shit. Yeah. Wonderful TV. Get help.

What do you think of Zach, though? Which one is that? Oh, yeah. You know, I haven't noticed anything that he's said specifically, but the vibe is kind of weird. He's kind of a weirdo. But like, I think is that a problem? I don't know. It's a little weirdo. He's kind of a weirdo, but like, is that a problem? I don't really know.

It's like he might not be your person. He might be a little goofball, a little weirdo, but I feel like I can confidently say about Zach that I can't say about anyone else other than Tiffany and Brett because they seem like in a league of their own. They're like a healthy, happy couple. Yes. Congratulations to them both.

And separating those two, Zach and everyone else, Zach's the only one that I could confidently say to the right person, he's going to make a great partner. Yeah, I think he's really committed to finding someone. He seems patient and empathetic. He's just an oddball. Just an oddball. But all these other people, oh my God.

Insufferable. Truly insufferable truly insufferable cast oh and just like yeah the the the confidence that they have in themselves i couldn't i this is what okay i'm about to sound so fucked up okay what i'm gonna say is i know that i sound fucked up i am a comedian this is what i would say as a comedian in a bit context the way they get people of just the exact attractiveness like level of life experience the most just slightly above average people in the one cast that they but they all are like so hot from their town they're so hot from their town with exceptions there's some people in there they're true stars like you said but like man you do not have the right to be this cocky no you are so regular dude

but it's so fun to watch it's so good yeah watching like middle management go on a power trip that's exactly what it is sit the the fuck down. You are nothing. We will be getting into the weeds of the first batch of episodes of Love is Blind tomorrow in our pop culture roundup behind Vile Files Plus. So be sure to check that out. If you haven't signed up already, it's a free seven day trial. Go to vilefiles.com, tap a couple of buttons and away you go. And in addition to that deep dive we'll also

be covering out a little bit when we have phoebe robinson next week oh my god so next week phoebe robinson will be here to go over you know we'll be talking about the season not necessarily episode by we'll be less granular but uh it'll be more high level discourse but uh it will still be a lot of fun and that would be available to all. Ashley, again, thank you so much for coming. A ton of fun. We hope to have you back. Go check out Ashley's show and we will see you back tomorrow for a new update special. Peace to you. Goodbye. you