The Viall Files - E570 Freestyle with Love is Blind’s Marshall Glaze

Episode Date: April 18, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Love is Blind Edition! Today we are joined by Marshall Glaze fresh off of filming the Love is Blind Season Four Reunion. What happened with Jackie behind closed doors, what did he know about her familial obligations and attractions to Josh, and what does he think of the marriages that came out of this season? We ask all of the hard hitting questions. We then offer advice to a listener who is interested in two guys in the same fraternity and needs to make a decision before her impending graduation.  “Hurt people hurt people.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/ To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Brooklinen - Brooklinen’s Birthday sale is almost here! Shop 25% off in store or at https://www.Brooklinen.com BetterSleep - When you sleep better, you feel better. Improve your quality of life in as little as one week. Download BetterSleep from your App Store or Google Play. Wondery’s Even The Rich - Even The Rich is a podcast from Wondery that tells the jaw-dropping stories about the tumultuous lives of the world’s elite, from the greatest family dynasties to pop culture superstars. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Established Titles - Established Titles is running a massive spring sale right now, plus if you use the code TVF you get an additional 10% off at https://www.EstablishedTitles.com/TVF for the perfect gift for the Lord or Lady in your life.  Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @marshallglaze @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell

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The chaos, yeah. It would have been kind of fun to see all that live and meet everyone, I suppose. But I was busy being a romantic. That's what I was doing. It was so cute. For those of you who didn't watch my Instagram, so Natalie went home to visit

family uh last week um visit her dad and her sister in savannah georgia and that's where she lived when we met and so nally and i had uh talked about it's something that we have been kind of focusing a lot on our relationship about staying connected and finding ways to be connected and and as a as a newly engaged man, I think romance is something that I was always really good at in my younger days. And then as my cynicism grew in to my body, it was harder for me to tap into, but it's been a focus of mine. Anyway, so when she went to Savannah, I had this idea of, and we've been in New York plenty of times and we stayed at the Williamsburg Hotel plenty of times.

But it was really important to me that we kind of did this kind of recreation of our very first weekend together. And it was important to me that she was in Savannah, right? As opposed to us flying to New York together, I wanted us to meet up in New York just like we did the first time. And so we kind of literally reenacted like the first moment we laid eyes on each other. Like, it's kind of cool to be able to revisit the very first spot where we met. You know, we just kind of did a bunch of series of things where we stopped by the first place that we had dinner. And then we then we went to Peter Luger's very famous steak place in Brooklyn. That wasn't our first weekend together.

We went there because that was like a very meaningful date where that was the first time Natalie said she had feelings for me and tried to define the relationship in which I turned her down. And on Instagram, she wrote that I said, thanks for sharing. I didn't actually say thanks for sharing for all the literal people out there. But it was this very cool to revisit. And then we hung out with our friends, Charlene and Andy, who were a part of that first weekend together. was this very cool to revisit and then we hung out with our friends charlene and andy who were part of that first weekend together and actually well uh i'll wait no maybe i shouldn't oh never

mind sorry it was some wedding planning details that we we decided on um in new york but we'll share later anyway how i'm intrigued yeah i was like um yeah i was gonna share it i'm sorry i'm sorry for the tease i don't know uh but we had a great weekend and then we flew back and then the love is blind union was a giant mess someone at netflix is getting fired for sure multiple people you feel bad of course you feel so bad for like that is the worst nightmare in the world having that's a fuck-up having a huge fuck up on that scale major platform like netflix a streaming service and then you have like other platforms like for example like prime you know does nfl games which is obviously a live sporting event

you know and all these streaming services are you know it's not a coincidence that you know there's a reason why they're doing this because because they did the Chris Rock thing without a hitch. But for them to have this much of a fuck up is it's really bad. But like the stress to Amanda's point, I worked for the Big Ten Network for a while as like a sideline coordinator, like on headset. And it is the most stressful thing you will ever do. Like, yes, I was on Dancing with the Stars. Yeah, I know. Just saying from the production side and like people yelling in your ear and you're and you have no idea what you're supposed to be doing, it is awful. Someone is going to talk about this day in therapy for years and years and years to come.

It's going to be B.C. and A.D. of this specific day in their life. Well, Marshall talks to us a lot of things he probably will talk about in therapy. Yeah. I thought he was very generous. He's super self-aware in a really impressive impressive way we got some jackie and and josh t we talk timelines obviously we love a good timeline i don't know about a good timeline uh anything we want to get into uh we saw obviously coach hello weekend was a big weekend we saw a lot of vanderpump news out there. Raquel is, she's in. She entered a voluntary facility for mental health counseling. And the statement said Raquel and her family decided before the relationship was discovered that she would enter the facility.

She had planned to admit herself before the Vanderpump Rules reunion was taped on March 23rd. She was scheduled to go in pre-reunion, but decided that she wanted to finish her filming commitment. Bravo and production were aware and in support of her journey toward better mental health. Why do I hate that aspect of the... Like, good for her for going. The whole timeline of... That she was going to go before, really had nothing to do with the relationship. It's like, I don't know.

I mean, I guess I'm glad she's... Has been very quiet. Going. We'd still love to have her on the show well i can't stop by now she's not there well i don't think the way to get her on the show is you knocking on her door well you never know i honestly the power i know the power of my door if ali knocks on my door with today i have a podcast would you like to come on it ali She's not going to immediately do that. Ali's going to win her over. They're going to walk their dogs together. They're going to become genuine friends. And then she's going to be like, hey, I'm going to level with you.

Why haven't you? You literally, you keep going back and forth. You're oscillating between two extremes here. You've told me to go to her door. Be a friend. Be a friend. You told me then it wasn't going to be effective. Which one is it? I don't think if you knock on her door and say, hey, I work for Sky as a podcast, you should come on. That's going to be effective which one is it i don't think if you knock on her door and say hey i work for skye as a podcast you should come on that's going to be well received but if you become her friend i'll tell her all about the drama that's going on on the floor yeah well you know

who seems to have a new friend is ariana because she was macking on a man he's a some kind of fitness trainer he's got a man bun and it seems like they're really enjoying each other's company. Sounds like a great rebound. Oh, yeah. And what a fun weekend. Just like go make out. Yeah. Was Tom Sandoval seen wearing a name tag, essentially?

He shaved his mustache. And then he was also hanging out with some other person, apparently, who was on Vanderpump a while ago. I don't know. Oh, does it say T. Sandy on it? Yes. T. Sandy. It's like embroidered. Also, why does he try to look like he's literally... I mean, I guess he isn't a band. He's really trying

to channel a boy band energy. But like, he's arguably the most hated man in pop culture. Yeah. And he's out there just fully embracing. T. Sandy. That is a man who loves attention regardless of the type right how else can you distinguish that just going to coachella yeah i was shocked he was there bold when that is like so much considered maybe the center of

controversy of controversy of like when there were all those rumors about raquel hooking up with a tom at coachella and it's something that they do together you know and the and the proposal that he helped James with was like there's just so many reasons that Coachella is baked into Vanderpump drama so for him to show his face there is shocking oh and the last week's episode he did that you see that scene where the ass tap I grabbed he grabbed he grabbed it was like a little a cup it was like a yeah yeah right in front of she did the thing that i feel like all girls have done where you like don't expect to get a little spank and you're like whoo yeah that's like what raquel did behind

ariana ariana turned around for a second he timed that it was like threading a needle precision he just doesn't care yeah he just doesn't care about anyone but himself i just uh if if i'm in the trying to give the benefit of the doubt hat on i just how do you how i know how he did and i can't wait to talk to howie mendel about that yeah i think it will be so interesting to see what how he's like perspective is after the fact because it it feels like most of the criticism centers around the fact going into it he just didn't have a sense of scope of this who's she uh how are you with us early may yeah first week of may first week of may anyway um it seems like uh ariana's heart is healing and we are happy for her oh she's thriving on the mend yeah yeah i'm excited for her she she's like shooting with bloomingdale she's modeling i

think it was in new york or i saw some like behind the scenes footage rumors of dancing with the stars yeah who knows yeah a lifetime now she's in the lifetime right now yeah she's on top well again we have uh marshall with us it's a great episode before we get there don't forget we have vile files plus is just crushing the content world if you did if you have not listened to the asthnik episode that yesterday, do yourself a favor. For other people tuning in from Marshall, we do this show where people call in and have these variety of stories. Some of our crazy stories, some of our relatable stories.

They're focused around relationships. We offer some advice. People find it helpful. It's an excellent episode. The first caller is a wild story. We already have an update from that caller. That update drops this Friday on Vile Files. Plus, it's an insane update. Your mouth will be on the floor. Don't miss out. Go to VileFiles.com to sign up for Vile Files Plus. It's a seven-day free trial. It's super easy. A couple clicks. You can

listen to it the same way you listen to the Vile F plus we have micah on thursday of going deeper we get into the ass pat speaking of ass pats and ass grabs paul just groping made groping her friend her friends seem to be her friends smiled smiled we we get into it with micah about her friendship picker uh her relationship with paul uh the things that happened post wedding all of that and more with micah you definitely do not want to miss that we'll also get into the reunion uh all in the episode with micah so we'll break down our final thoughts about you know season season four, the reunion, the proposals, things like that. On that episode of Going Deeper on Thursday. All right. Marshall Glaze, everybody.

Marshall. Yo, what's up? Welcome. Thanks for having me. How is your heart? Heart's good. Heart's good? Heart's good, yeah.

Okay. You sure? Yeah, yeah, I'm fine. i'm fine i'm fine thank you for asking he's fine now he's fine uh we like to dig deep here yeah you're trying i'm fine i'm good i'm good the love is blind fan base loves you they uh they they they wanted to protect your heart you know you i think for a lot of people watching this show, I think a lot of people were taken back and impressed. But you're 26?

27. 27, happy birthday. Somewhere along the lines of a birthday. I guess a young man, so to speak, in today's dating climate. 27 is not that young. But I think as daters, we're, I don't know, maybe maturing later in life i don't fucking know men men of austin the stereotype men uh mature later in life but you demonstrated on the show at least the desire to open up emotionally and connect you

know and be vulnerable and i think a lot of people appreciated that. And so, you know, we just want to take this time to better get to know you and peel back some of those kind of unanswered questions of all the you and Jackie drama because it seems of all the storylines, that seems still to be the most incomplete in terms of what happened, what went down. Jackie and Josh kind of chickened out when it came to the reunion. I mean, if nothing else, it would have been nice for them to at least Zoom in live

so that people could ask questions, but they had this kind of private one-on-one interview with Vanessa, which, I don't know, kind of seemed lame to me. But anyway, so thank you for coming. And yeah, our hope is that we can just dive into all that and better understand you and go from there. Sounds good.

Thanks for having me. Yeah. So as someone who went into the show, when you went into the show, when you decided to sign up for Love is Blind, what was your, why did you sign up? What was your goal and intentions when you went onto the show?

So it's funny because I had not seen Love is Blind. At all? At all. I'm not a reality TV person. Okay. The only reality TV I've seen was Justin's season. And even so, I halfway watched it, kind of fast forwarding to see him only. Well, you probably fast forwarded for most of the season because Justin, for a guy who

was a runner up. Some reaction shots. That's about it. yeah yeah um but no i the way that it was pitched to me i i thought that it was the the pilot season and it was it was really interesting um you didn't do any homework before the only one was like hey season four love is blind well well they didn't say it was season four okay they didn't say it was season four and so i went through about uh two weeks of the casting process and then that's when i was like wait a minute they're saying season four so that's when i started to ask questions i asked justin justin said it's huge and then that's i took his word for it and then i looked on netflix

and i was like oh okay there's there's a season there's another season coming out okay okay this is this is a pretty big deal and did you watch a little bit of that prior to going on? I did. I did about two weeks before going into the pods. I binged the first season and the second season. What was your thought? I thought that it was exactly how they pitched it to me. I was even more excited to go.

Okay. What was your kind of preparation of getting engaged, getting married? What was exciting about it to you as it relates to the expectations of the show? Yeah, I think that I've always been ready to get married. I mean, this isn't my first engagement. I was engaged before. Oh, okay. Like me. And so I just, I was just so wrapped up in the thought of finding love in a unique way and having a document it that that was that was a really awesome opportunity I feel like

it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity so jumped at it what happened with that first engagement when were you engaged uh I that was I was 20 23 okay and it just it just didn't work out you know we We just decided to call it off. It was a very amicable split and it was just not the right time. How did you realize that? Well, a lot of factors actually. We actually moved across the country together. We met in the Baltimore DC area and moved in to an apartment in Oakland. And that's when the pandemic hit. So we were on top of each other at all times and there was nowhere to go.

So I can partially blame the pandemic, but also we just realized that we were better off as friends. Okay. And was that a difficult period in your life? Because it's like i first got engaged uh well how old was i 27 28 ish i don't know for me it was a very difficult for a lot of reasons but the you know i ultimately i think the biggest reason was i think as a young man you have all these ideas of love and you you know i think all people kind of fantasize and have these expectations of what

love's going to be like for them you know i'm only going to get engaged once married once i'm not going to get cheated on we don't anticipate uh tragedy i think of any kind usually as young people and then we experience them and so here you are a young man get engaged i'm sure uh the early stages it was very kind of intense and fun and excited and it didn't work out yeah how did you deal with that disappointment what was that like actually i wouldn't call it disappointment i think that it was more a learning for me okay um you weren't disappointed at all no no no uh because we had been together for uh for three years prior. So we're not three years prior, but up until that point it was three years. And so we learned a lot about each

other and it just dissolved how it should have. And so there was no disappointment. I just took a lot of lessons from it. So that's when, um, it was a year after that when, uh, love is blind reached out. And that's when I said, okay, I'm going to give it another shot. All right. Yeah. So you're on the show. Was Jackie the only person you really connected with?

Or were there other people? Yeah. No, there were other people. Keisha, I connected with Kendra as well. And I mean, Tiffany uh but but the age difference and and i just felt like her and brett were would be better together sure but yeah kasha and kindra were definitely in my uh top three okay yeah uh when did you really feel like your connection with jackie was something that you thought you wanted to focus and invest on? Honestly, from day one,

I had just known that she was at the top of my list. What was it about that connection? And I'm guessing, again, or how much did your previous experience and your previous engagement, how much, if at all, was it that in the back of your mind in terms of using that experience

to help guide you into this kind of crazy, intense experience that is Love is Blind? Yeah. You try to take all the lessons that you've learned in all of your experiences in life and try to apply it. But this was just such a unique experience that honestly, a lot of those lessons went out the window because it was a very pressurized situation. And I gravitated towards Jackie because it was easy. We were easy. How the moment that we stepped in there,

she made me very comfortable. She, she, she has this, this persona in the pod. She had this persona that was just encapsulating she would come in and introduce herself in a very unique way you can give us an example can you do a jackie impression yeah this is jackie b from the 253 you know that was that was her thing she so she had a lot of

personality a lot of charisma yeah yeah she had a lot of riz and uh that's what uh pushed me towards her and ultimately that's what uh that's what captured my attention uh and and took it away from the other women in the pods what were some of the other things that you bonded over you know especially you know with these types of shows we all know that there's just hours and hours and hours of footage that we don't get to see yeah um so what were some of the moments that maybe you and jackie shared and i'm kind of interested from your point of view i'm like obviously the relationship is over whatever but i think people want to put themselves inside of the pods right like what is that like that's crazy experience to not be able to see someone. And how can you possibly fall in love with someone you can't see, et cetera, et cetera.

So after the initial charisma that is Jackie, what were some things, especially if you could shed some light on moments that we didn't get to see that you were like, oh, that was just like a great moment. It really made me feel connected. It really made me feel like this is a person I might want to get engaged to. Yeah. If you've ever seen Dragon Ball Z, there's this thing called the hyperbolic time chamber. Okay. Where time just works differently in there.

So you can spend a week in the hyperbolic time chamber, but it's a day out in the real world. That's how it felt in the pods. Sure. And we spent a lot of time. It was quality time. We didn't have our phones. We had no distractions. We talked about literally everything. And I feel like if there's anything

that people should know about Jackie and myself is that we come from similar backgrounds and similar cities. I'm from Baltimore. She's from Tacoma. I made a joke that Tacoma is like the Baltimore, Washington. And that's how we bonded because of the similarities between the cities that we grew up in and just her energy and my energy, I feel you like in the opposite sex in terms of energy and how they are in relationships? Because as we know, after the pause and you guys went to, was it Mexico? Things took a shift where all of a sudden Jackie started acting like you weren't meeting her expectations and was saying some kind of, it kind of sounded fairly toxic.

It was weird. Jackie was the one demonstrating toxic masculinity, weirdly enough. But the type of energy that she's looking for in a guy, that was a nice way of saying what jackie seemed to be articulating yeah we definitely talked a lot about you know the the traits that we want to see in our partner obviously it's evident that uh that she didn't quite live up to uh what she had said that she was um in the pods what was the biggest surprise for you like when was there a moment in mexico or anytime after where you thought to yourself this this isn't the person

i fell in love with that's a that's a very good question and and and i would say that the biggest thing for me was just the very blatant personality shift. And Jackie had this very serious, all about a demeanor in the pods. And then when we got to Mexico, it was like she wanted to play play. She wanted to have fun and get drunk in Mexico and and enjoy the vacation and that's not what it was about like if you go to the pool scene you rarely see me because she's out having fun and I'm like do your thing whatever I'm gonna go chill by the grill talk to the guys who are grilling as good as lobster and you have your fun whatever and because I wasn't there to have

fun with everybody, I was there to enjoy my time with her and it wasn't reciprocated. You wanted to continue that kind of intimate quality time. Yeah. Yeah. And we had that. I'm not saying that we didn't, but there were a lot of times where it was more about enjoying Mexico rather rather than enjoying our engagement did it feel like jackie was there to vacation rather than i felt like she had a hard time delineating between the two between having a vacation and having a romantic getaway i want to go back to when you were in the pods and i say this kind of as a joke but you you do know not to pick a fight with a guy with cotton ear right like you know hey bro listen listen i honestly did you know i was wait so what is cotton ear how do you know what cotton ear is it's cauliflower cauliflower sorry okay

cauliflower yeah yeah you know not to pick a fight with a guy with cauliflower yeah cotton ear sorry i i was picking an orchard. Thank you. I was never going to physically fight Josh. And that was banter between my producer and I. You know what I'm saying? But there was a time where, and it was at Chelsea's birthday party. I didn't give a fuck.

He was in my face, and I literally wanted to punch him in his face. He probably would have won the fight. I don't care, but I wanted to punch him in his face. Back into the pods, though, minus his shit giving, as much as the one thing

where I didn't quite understand you, because for the most part, I really enjoyed watching you. I liked the kind of character you're you you demonstrated but it confused me why you were so upset with josh in the pods yeah because to me it was like why did josh owe you you know like to me it came across and again maybe we didn't see it accurately but it came across as you built a connection with jackie you were open about that connection with the boys i don't know what jackie said to the other people she was dating including josh but it also while watching it people in the pods were kind of aware of the other connections people were forming right

but it sounded like josh just decided to keep that shit to himself which to be honest i don't have a problem with me either uh but it seemed like you took exception to that and so can you clear that up as to why you seem so upset in that moment when when jackie told you hey there's another connection i have that kind of caught you off guard and you know like he's gonna leave if i leave but like you know maybe that was true maybe that was true you know they're still together so maybe he only liked jackie yeah yeah so the reason why i was so upset uh there are actually multiple reasons so i had had no issue with with learning the fact that josh was seeing her i knew that we were all there dating each other. You know? That was not the issue. The issue was,

one, when I learned that it was Josh, Josh and I had a very, very deep connection. Like we- Like a friendship. We were almost like Brett, like Brett and myself, we were almost to that level. Gotcha.

You know what I'm saying? So I'm sitting here bearing my soul to this dude about a girl that he is also in love with. So I felt like I slighted him as much as he's slighting me. And let me just tell the real here. He didn't just say that to Jackie. The fact that he was going to pack his bags and leave if he wasn't leaving with him. He said it to Monica too. Oh.

So that's why I got upset. Like this is a day. is a day he was spitting game this is a day before proposal yeah this is the epitome of the pods experience the proposal day and you're coming in here and you're going to say that thing to two women at the same time that's why i got upset but when i talked to him and they didn't air a lot of it when i I talked to him, it was a miscommunication. He quite literally was just saying he didn't mean to cause any riff with anybody. He was just articulating himself the only way that he knew how. And so I was like, oh, okay, cool. I mean, I'm never going to tell you to not go after anything that you don't want, but I feel like you're going to get your heart broken because there's a very good possibility that I'm leaving here with Jackie.

And now she's crying over here because she's torn and we're stuck in this thing. You just created drama. You just created a love triangle. Congratulations. Okay. And I mean, we hugged it out after that. Sure.

Like it was all good. Yeah. So yeah, they didn't really seem to show your friendship with Josh at all which makes a little sense honestly up until a couple of days ago I still had

no issue with Josh and now it's just like I don't want to be your friend but I'm also not your enemy so it's kind of yeah I mean Jackie's the one who to me seems to uh really have shown a lot of disrespect towards you i mean you know josh it's like he's just the

other guy so to speak you know yeah yeah kind of collateral damage in a sense yeah yeah i mean josh was in a relationship with you i I mean, the friendship, you know, it seems like that you guys were really bonding, but it sounds like you guys realized that maybe you weren't going to be friends anyways. Yeah. And from his point of view, what he's told me is that he didn't say how he felt about Jackie because he didn't want to deter me from getting in my own way. You know what I'm saying? So... Do you believe that?

When did he say that? Was that recent? A text message yesterday. Wait, what did he send you? He sent me a text message. What did it say? He said a lot of stuff. Did he bring it up?

No. Come on. No, no, no. Marshall, we got to push you. No, no. Private between Josh and myself. And it'll stay that way. But I'll say what I can and what I will say is that

he told me that he didn't want to step in and he told me that in the pod so I mean if there's footage of that then they can release it whatever but he didn't want to get in the way of the way that I was feeling because I was professing my love for Jackie every single day

sure but what does he mean he didn't want to get in the way he was doing you a favor that kind of sounds condescending yeah and it my love for Jackie every single day. Sure. But what does he mean? He didn't want to get in the way. Um, he was doing you a favor. That kind of sounds condescending. Yeah. And it,

and it got brought up at Chelsea's birthday party where he said that he, he put my feelings over his, and now he's going to choose himself and put his feelings over mine. But I'm like, you could have did that five weeks, four or five weeks ago. Like what's, what's the difference. And so I take it with a grain of salt,

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Better Sleep starts now with Better Sleep. So you and Jackie were back in Mexico. At first, honestly, you know, early on I was like, okay. You seemed like one of the couples that was like, okay, I like the marshall seems like emotionally mature you know like jackie maybe can kind of you guys seemed like you could balance each other out a little bit right and we were but that that changed obviously very quickly you know she's in mexico she's having a hard time determining whether it's

you know fun time or vacation time or here to build a connection but then she did she mention any of this family stuff in the pods because that seemed to be like a massive excuse when when think when anytime she was kind of emotionally taxed she would bring up her family and it sounds like i know her dad's dealing with some health stuff but me personally i've been in this world far too long like it just seems like some people, it's just like if your family members are too sick, don't go on TV. But I'm curious, as someone who got to meet this person and talked for hours and hours and hours,

how much did her family life and her responsibilities that she said she had and the health of her father or anyone else in the family, how much did that come up? Well, first I'd like to say I'm praying for her father's health. I had no idea that he had cancer. Okay. So it didn't come up at all.

I had no idea. You think that would be an important thing to bring up while pouring your soul to someone? Yeah. And I knew that she had an interesting relationship with her parents, And I knew that she had an interesting relationship with her parents, but I had no idea that it was that. That was that. Did you think it was, she was kind of bringing it up after? Because it just, while it was there, quite honestly,

it just seemed like she saw you, she met you. It quickly seemed like Jackie decided that you weren't her type. And all this love is blind, is love blind? Can we build a connection past the superficial? It sure seemed like Jackie's, Jackie doesn't think so at all. I think her demeanor quickly changed.

She just decided Marshall's not my guy. And then she seemed to bring up that stuff when it seemed to serve her the best. Did you feel that way as well? That's how it came across. No, no. I think that it was just her clarifying. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and she may not have wanted to talk about I know she didn't want to talk about her family on camera and

it could very well be because that's very tough to talk about her father being ill and I understand. I'm a very understanding guy which is also a very wild part of this whole thing is I've always been understanding. I've always been the one in her corner and to be, you know, a villain in her eyes.

That's kind of wild. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's wild. But yeah, I don't think that it was opportunistic of her. But yeah, I don't think that it was opportunistic of her. I think that it was just she had the opportunity to clarify and it was her time to say, look, okay, I'm going to come clean. My dad's dealing with some stuff. That was on me. Not clarifying that in the past, but I'm clarifying it now. Done. And I didn't think anything of it after I saw it on whatever outlet published it. But she kind of low-key referenced it while you guys were hanging out. At what point? Well, I don't know.

Like when the first kind of big fight that you had where she was like, I'm just dealing with stuff. And, you know, like I have all this responsibility. I don't know. And honestly, I don't know if that was an in-the-mom moment kind of interview with producers or with you it's sometimes it's hard to remember i think you might be referencing a like fight in mexico or like not so much a fight but like her getting really worked up and feeling concerned about how this would translate once you guys both got back and sort of mentioning family was like one of the reasons she was worried about this yeah were her reactions is out of the blue as it felt while watching it can you repeat that that uh where her like emotional outbursts where they is out of the blue as they came across while

watching the show because it came across on the show that she just decided to like out of nowhere get mad and it it came across is a lot of like sabotage you know where i'm just going to make this thing into a big thing because i want out or or i don't know what her motivation is but it sure felt like it came out of nowhere partially i've been in those relationships you know where it's just like what the fuck is going on like yeah like holy shit yeah you're trying your best to you know be a caring and empathetic partner but you're also just like, what the fuck is going on? Like, holy shit. You're trying your best to be a caring and empathetic partner, but you're also just like, where is this coming from? Did it feel as chaotic in being there in person

as it did for us watching? Yes and no. I believe that the outburst in Mexico, there were a lot of moving pieces to that and there was a lot that wasn't shown. And so, uh, well, the cameras weren't rolling when, uh, when the, that started. And so the camera started rolling after she had, she was already in her mood. And so that was a day of drinking and Jackie wasn't irritated. and she got a call from her mom.

Her mom called the producer and wanted to talk to Jackie. And that's what spiraled her. What the content of what her mom was saying to the producer that stays between them. And that's Jackie's story to tell. I'm in no place to say that, but I will say that that was the reason why there was a big outbreak. And it was because there was a lot of pressure on top of her being drunk. Um, and the, the pressure of her family life, the pressure of filming, the pressure of being in a new relationship that was a lot on her and I mean that's that's quite literally what happened in Mexico Jackie was pretty open early on about her sex life I suppose or your your you know he was

like asking everyone who if they had sex and then that seemed to be a point of contention in your relationship or how much. And she seemed to at least attempt to try to emasculate you or make some comments. What was that like for you? What was going on in your head? Because, you know, you're being called out by this woman who at the time you love. And it sounds like you were trying to just build this connection and kind of from a 360 point of view, emotional, physical, intimate, you know, things like that. What kind

of conversations did you two have about sex in your sex life? And how did you try to get on the same page as her when she was bringing up some of these issues? Yeah. Sorry, mom. I'm a freak. Okay. We had a lot of conversations about it and we explored that in mexico we explored that when we left mexico and it was and you can see it in that conversation when she says we don't have sex bro i'm like that's on me that's on me yeah because she was dealing with a feminine issue and i was waiting for her to heal that's it and that was really wild for her to bring that up and try to make it seem like I'm not crushing it. You know what I'm saying?

I'm very comfortable with myself, her bringing up certain emasculating things. It like sticks and stones, bro. It doesn't hurt me. It doesn't affect me. You're trying to jab me and it's not i'm sorry it's not working because i know the type of man that i am yeah i love the type of man that i am and you can never take that from me why do you think she did that only she knows well if you had to guess why do you think she was trying to hurt you that way hurt people hurt people point blank period yeah could you

talk us through the timeline of the kind of fight that you had where at one point you'd left to take some space and then when you came back she was packing up and just kind of like that back and forth it seemed like there were many different moments yeah there was one night where uh you know everything was great we were going to bed having a good time we were joking laughing whatever and then i'm getting in the bed and she uh says to me uh well i threw you under the bus in one of my interviews um i said oh okay what'd you say thanks for the heads up yeah i was like oh okay what'd you say and she told me that um that there were that there were some behaviors that needed to change

and that I needed to be more aggressive. And then she kind of just asked me to just go in the next day and say on camera, I'm going to fix this and we're going to move forward. She asked me to roll over. She asked you. She basically said, hey, I threw you under the bus. I said that you need to be more aggressive in bed. And then she basically asked you to own that?

And you know what's wild is that she didn't even say aggressive in bed. She said that the day after she tried to clarify that she meant that she was trying to tell me to be more aggressive in bed. I thought she was telling me to be more aggressive as a man. Oh, okay. And that's why I said-

What does that even, like, what does that mean? I don't know. I don't know. And so that's why I say that she didn't think of me as a man. Because in that moment, those couple of nights prior, and I'll get to how long I left. But those couple of nights prior, that brought me to my knees. I'd done everything for this woman. I was carrying our relationship.

I was cooking, cleaning, working from home, making sure that everything was good when she got back from work. I was washing her fucking clothes. I was folding her shit. I was doing all this stuff, planning the dates, trying to plan the wedding. And her telling me that brought me to my fucking knees. That was like, I'm holding up the world already and she's adding more. I'm like, I can't do this. And so I knew that I wanted to be with her, but in that moment, I did not like her and I just needed to separate and take some time. So I went back to my apartment. I needed to be in a safe space. It's not that I wanted to leave and escape and run away. No, I just needed some time. No, I can imagine that. Yeah. You're lying in bed. She drops this on you.

Yeah. And I'm assuming, listen, I know know it's always used against people who go on these shows, but like you're told not to be self-aware that there is a TV show, and you're like told that you're not supposed to think about, because if you do think about how people are gonna react, then somehow you're accused of being in there for the fame or you're being disingenuous. But like there's no way you could have been

in that moment with jackie where she is saying these things to you and about you and that not fuck with you it was huge yeah it was huge and no that was a that was a a turning point for me because the blinders went away i've always been here with Jackie. But then when she said that, they went away and I started to see a lot of shit. Such as? The fact that she, I don't think that she ever respected me as a man.

And especially after the reunion yesterday when she called me soft to Josh, like, come on, you always thought I was soft. And you just, why did you accept my proposal? But anyway. That's a great question. Yeah, it was mind boggling to me that it got to that point.

And you're very right about being so hyper aware about how the public is going to perceive you before it's even edited. Yeah, you're a human being. so hyper aware about how the public is going to perceive you before it's even edited yeah and you're a human being yeah and and it's and it's i didn't care about that i was so hyper focused on our relationship i could care about what i was saying in my interviews and so you know i i twisted some things i i i said things because she didn't want to say things on camera you know i brought up stuff about my family that i didn't necessarily want to bring up, but the producers were asking

for something. So like, hey, tell us about something, give us something. And so I'm sitting there looking at her and she's just like tight lip. So I'm like, okay, so my dad did this. Okay, so I was, you know, this and that, you know what I'm saying? Sure. Again, when she said that to me, it brought me to my knees and so i left for two days and i told her i communicated i said i need two days i'll be back i'm not breaking up with you i'll be back did you leave lines of communication open or it's just like hey yeah okay my phone call me you can text me whatever but i just need to be in my safe space for a minute you know because i i hadn't seen my apartment in a while uh i hadn't watered my plant my plant was dying i had a lot i have adhd

too so like there's a lot of stuff that's going on my mind like oh shoot i should probably take out the trash sure okay i should do this i'm just gonna go back home and like figure this out and then i'll come back you know yeah i mean when you say it brought you to your knees too because like you know like um you know in a lot of ways, when you say it brought you to your knees too, cause like, you know, like, um, you know, in a lot of ways to watching you, like you reminded of me of myself. Uh, and, and, and I don't mean this in any con like I'm older than you. So I'm just older. Um, but I, younger me, you know, like I, I think you're a really well-intentioned guy. You know, I, it sounds like your character matters to you. You want to do the right thing.

I remember myself as a young man, all those things. And I had blinders on too because I wanted to be in love. I really wanted to take care of the person. I love taking care of the people I love. I still do. But I've had to learn how to protect myself. And I've had to learn how to protect myself and, and I've had to learn how to set boundaries and things like that. And I had to deal with my kind of own kind of toxicity in relationships of, you know, being that fixer, you know, that I think there

was some honesty in your part when you kind of blurted that out where you said she looked like a project, but nevertheless, we'll get into that. But when she talked about the masculinity thing or called you out, hearing you talk, I'm assuming that to you, being a man is a lot more than just kind of being the aggro guy out at the bar who's willing to pick a fight

with anyone who might glance at their girl and things like that. It sounds like taking care of the person you love might even be laundry, or being kind of that emotional support system, or as you, Mitch, even said, she didn't want to bring up stuff about her family, so you're like, you know what,

I'll take one for the team here. And I'm guessing for you, in your mind, you're like, I'm protecting the person I love. I'm taking care of the person I love. I'm going out of my way. And I'm doing all these things. I might not be looking to pick a fight with everyone or getting super toxic in bed.

Did that make you doubt at all? Those two days where you thought about those things, did that get in your head in terms of, because as a guy, when we get called out by women sometimes, it can fuck with you. It can be like, well, should I be more aggressive? Should I be more aggro? Should I be, you know, should I puff my chest out more? Did you struggle with any of that while dealing with that? No, I wasn't going to change who I was for her.

I think I just needed to figure out in those two days that I took, I needed to figure out if it was worth working through that and allowing her the time to understand and accept me. Allowing her the time to understand and accept me. And that was a lot of the internal conversations that I had with myself when I was in my apartment for two days staring at the ceiling, asking all myself the damn new questions that I didn't ask myself in the pods. Was it worth it? And should I continue? came to the decision that this is just a relationship that I'm willing to go through the ebbs and flows of because I was going to leave with her. That was my mindset. Sure. I guess my question to you in that state of mind, what was it about the relationship with Jackie or what was it about Jackie that you were still willing to fight for?

that you were still willing to fight for? Definitely, you know, and this is terrible, but it was the potential. I saw everything inside of her. And I saw myself in Jackie, you know? Like there was a lot of stuff that I felt like I had worked through that she hadn't quite gotten to that point that I could be the catalyst

to help her get to that point. Very naive lesson learned people. Yeah. Um, but I, I quite literally like she, she is a, um,

oral surgeon assistant. And in Mexico, she had her book studying for, um, her anesthesia, um, not anesthesiology, but she could administer anesthetic. She was studying the material. I'm like, you're taking an exam to administer anesthetics.

Why don't you, don't you want to be an anesthesiologist? You could be an anesthesiologist. You're a super smart girl. You're already studying this stuff. Take it a step further. You don't have to box yourself in being an oral surgeon assistant for your entire career.

You can take this to the next level. And she just- Did you ask her though, before you said that? I asked her. I said, do you see yourself going further than that? And she said, no. And I said, well, no, you can do that. You can do this.

I believe in you. I hear you. But this is where you remind me of younger me. Let's hear it. Well, I've you can do that. You can do this. I believe in you. I hear you. But this is where you remind me of younger me. Let's hear it. Well, I've had to learn as a guy who likes to help and fix and well-intentioned that not everyone's me. And being our best selves and reaching our full potential can mean a lot of different things for a lot of different people.

Yeah. And so I think, well, that type of language can come across as well-intentioned in your mind. It can feel kind of condescending to those people receiving it because it can feel like here you are, you know, Jackie could have been someone who's like very proud of herself, crushing it. Like maybe she's literally fulfilling a dream when it comes to like, I know, Jackie could have been someone who's like very proud of herself, crushing it. Like maybe she's literally fulfilling a dream when it comes to like, I just, I always wanted to work in the dental field and I always want to do this, but I don't fucking love school.

And nor do I want to be a fucking dentist because being a dentist means running a fucking business and having other people report to you. But what I can do is as a dental, a surgical dental assistant, as I can have this job and have the quality of life that allows me to maybe be a mom or a wife or other hobbies, you know? And so it's just one of those things where I've had to learn that kind of balance between, you know, first ask those questions about like, Hey, that's really cool. What made you want to do that? That's, that's, that's amazing. You know, is that, where do you want to do that? That's amazing. Is that what you want to do? And just without making that person immediately feel like what they're doing isn't good enough.

It's very nuanced. Yeah. Yeah. And so as someone with that mentality, I would challenge you and urge you in the future to take a beat. Yeah. Nick, I've learned my lesson, man. 100 nick i've learned my lesson man 100 i've learned my lesson because i hear you i mean i again i i i i i've been you yeah um multiple times and um it's this it's just something that i think as men we can get better at in terms of of just being supportive through encouragement. And there is a time and a place for challenging our partners to see their full potential. But it's also really important to acknowledge what they are doing, what they have done and make them feel like you're really proud of what they're currently doing without immediately suggesting what else they could be doing. Yeah. And that was me projecting as well, because I'm always thinking about self-growth

and opportunities to move forward and better myself. And I projected it out into her, unfairly. Yeah. Listen, I've done it multiple times. Done it into my 30s. You're ahead of me. Even the rich. That's right. You know them, you love them. All the amazing stories of some of your favorite celebrities and the behind-the-scenes stories of how they become rich and famous and all the drama in between. Even the Rich is the podcast from Wondering that tells you the jaw-dropping stories about the tumultuous lives

of the world's elite, from the greatest family dynasties to pop culture superstars. Having unimaginable wealth unlocks a world of which most of us could only dream. But once you get past the red carpet galas and private vacations, it can get a little darker as well. The most recent season of Even the Rich Explored, Lucia Ball's meteoric rise to fame as the first female sitcom star and studio exec, despite periods of soul-crushing rejection in A Husband with a Wondering Eye. There's also a season about Madonna. They have also, they have the Murdoch family.

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Even the Rich is a podcast from Wondery that tells the jaw dropping stories about the tumultuous lives of the world's elite. From the greatest family dynasties to pop culture superstars. Listen to Even the Rich on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Breaking news. I'm a lord. I will now make my employees refer to me as Lord Nick. Through established titles, I have become a lord. Established title is a novelty gift that helps to preserve the natural woodlands of Scotland and supports global reforestation efforts.

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a little bit about this thing called our planet. Also, the first 200 people who purchase their title after using your link, Nick, they will be next to your dedicated plots. They'll be neighbors in Scotland. Who wants to be my neighbor? Yeah. It makes an amazing last minute gift. Established Title is running a massive spring sale right now. Plus, if you use the code TVF, that's TVF, to get an additional 10% off, do me a favor and check out establishedtitles.com slash TVF. That's Tom Victor Fox to get your gifts now. When did you realize that Josh was still a threat? A threat?

I don't know if that's the right word for it. I wouldn't call it a threat. I mean, a threat to your relationship. I mean, I'm not trying to like but like as far as your relationship with jackie i mean listen i don't think you would end up with jackie regardless so sure like it wasn't you weren't i don't think you guys are compatible yeah that's my yeah very evident yeah but ultimately josh and her had a connection uh not a threat to you but a threat to the relationship when did you realize that he was still in the picture as it relates to jackie man uh it's funny because um when we got

back from mexico and we were sequestered before going to the shared living space we got our phones back and we were able to see everyone's instagram and all that stuff and so um uh she was looking through josh's stuff and she was just like, ew, ew, ew. I was like, oh, okay. Well, she doesn't find them attractive. Done deal. I'm good.

Good to move forward. And so then it turned into, he pulls up to Chelsea's birthday party. I honestly had forgotten about Josh up until that point. And because we had been in no communication, uh, we hadn't gone out altogether. Like I was so focused on Jackie that nothing else really mattered. And so when he showed up, I was like, Oh, I see what's happening here. This is, this is going to be some drama. And it was, um, I saw them having a conversation. I didn't feel threatened by him then, uh, because I knew that he was drunk

and he was going to say some stuff. Do your thing, bro. And then at that point, we were already almost at the door. So, you know, and that's why I said, if you can take her from me, you can have her. And so I'm glad that they're happy together now. Yeah.

You know? Sure. We love a good timeline. I love a good timeline. There's been a lot of debate online, even by Jackie. Because Jackie was all defensive up in her posts or whatever she was putting it out there.

She blamed editing on the timeline. And that, you know, in terms of letting you know. The coffee date didn't happen when it did. Yeah. But then when she was ending things with you, she said that. But when she was ending with you, she made it very clear to you

that she had met up with Josh. Yeah. I think looking back on it, I think she may have been recalling meeting him at the party. Although she had told me everything that he said. She said very specifically, we met up. No, she said, I just saw Josh.

And so I think what that meant was that was her first time seeing him in person. Okay. And so I think that it is unfortunate that whatever the internet is saying, it's like she's getting berated for it but you know at the end of the day they got to tell a story and so that made the most sense to put that there to to kind of weaponize that against her i don't i don't really remember what that timeline was i have my own theories but what are your theories i mean my theory was is that they uh chelsea's party was on a wednesday the tux fitting and the Chelsea's party was on a Wednesday. The tux fitting and the dress shopping was on a Friday.

And I had a theory that they met that Thursday because we were supposed to film on Thursday, on that Thursday. But she skated. She said that she had to go and see her dad in the hospital. He had fell and hit his head. And I was, oh, shoot. Yeah, go do your thing. Go off and do your thing. But then later on, I'm like, oh, well, you came in the house, didn't say anything to anybody. Okay, cool. You go upstairs and you grab makeup and hair gel and a brush. Okay, cool. But you're going to go see your dad in the hospital hope he's okay and i pray that she didn't that that's not a lie but but you wonder if maybe she that was maybe maybe totally

transparent on her part the whole filming at the coffee shop i i do actually know for a fact that they did meet um the uh the day after uh the tux and dress for a fact 100 they filmed that but we don't know but we don't know right we don't know if they met or whatever beforehand they could have been texting calling yeah that's the thing about love is blind is that you got y'all living in the same city yeah when you're on the bachelor for example the whole show is one big bubble where love is blind like i don't know half of the show is above a bubble but half of the show is you guys living your life yeah you know doing your thing and then you guys film in between your life yeah yeah so she could have been doing

literally anything with josh no 100 and and and so if that was that was her prerogative to explore that fine um and the way that it ended i think it doesn't matter in my opinion it doesn't matter if it was a day before or the day after or three days after whatever it doesn't matter you literally just broke up with me and you're kissing another guy accepting his his advance to be his his girlfriend after of so that that i meant nothing to you then she she certainly acted this i meant nothing to you yeah okay and that's why i asked for the ring back yeah let's get another ring yeah what what the hell is she talking about at at what point at the reunion the the marshall's like when the well the whole ring well first uh when she said she's not gonna give it back to you because when she accepted it she meant it what was going on in your head because i

and do you guys get to keep like because in bachelor world you you don't you don't get to keep i heard if you don't last a certain period of time you guys get to keep the rings uh i mean yeah um so this was a literal fight for a ring yeah and and so let me be incredibly clear let me clear this up i did not pay for the ring period no yeah none of us paid for the ring and so i did not ask her for the ring back for monetary gain or monetary value i asked for it back because it was sentimental value it meant something to me you're throwing this away that shit means nothing to you give it back you don't deserve to keep that because it felt like she might say go pawn it and and monetize your pain and if if she still has it great if she doesn't great but the matter of the fact is that i wanted to keep it because i wanted a memento of

all the stuff that i'd gone through we had a chance to sort through rings and pick it out i picked that out for her i thought of her when saw it. I asked her what kind of ring she wanted and how she, like, did you want a gold band? I had to ask the ring people because the picture, well, the first ring that I saw was in white gold. She wanted it in yellow gold. I asked them specifically to bring it back to me in yellow gold. That was a custom thing I asked them specifically to bring it back to me in yellow gold that was a custom thing I asked for yeah I went through a lot for that ring and although it's a very it's a very short blip in the timeline that meant a lot to me sure yeah I understand that you know like that I don't take an engagement lightly at the time I mean at the time she was treating your relationship as well

not like it meant all that much. Yeah. Just kind of dismissing it all entirely. Yeah. Yeah. And having already seemingly moved on. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And what did she say at the reunion? She said that, well, Vanessa asked if she still has it. She says, yes, ma'am, I still have it. And I don't remember. That's weird. I'd tear that shit out. How does joshie poo feel about that i don't know but she was clutching onto his arm real tight yeah they're they're in love i'm happy for him you don't have to be happy for him no i am genuinely i'm i'm happy for them genuinely well good for you yeah nice of you what

what why because i've moved on okay you know and and that's just the type of guy that i am i don't hold grudges i don't like if you cross me okay what did you think about those text messages her alleged friends released it was it tracked it was it was pretty on brand um because that's the stuff that she would say to me and and i thought that it was joking uh i mean she because she kind of low-key questioned your sexuality in those text messages which were pretty it was kind of yeah and and kind of gross on her part nick she she she would say uh certain things to me but i thought it was in jest and but now that is now that she was saying it to her friends i realized that she actually meant that shit.

Do you think Jackie's toxic? She has toxic tendencies, toxic traits, yeah. But I don't think that she's a 100% toxic person. Do you think she recognizes her toxicity? Mm-mm. What do you think makes someone toxic? Not holding yourself accountable when you should and gaslighting someone into making them believe

that you're a villain in your own story. If Jackie has toxic tendencies, you don't think she's aware of her toxic tendencies, and she's doing nothing to work on those tendencies, why can't we just call her toxic? Because that's a label, Nick. I don't label people. You label behavior, not the individuals.

A lot. Fair enough. And that's just a buzzword people say oh that's you're toxic no you got toxic traits okay sure i don't know i think some people just are toxic i think inherently they if they're not doing anything about it you know i think that's better than saying like narcissists people love throwing that shit around. But yeah, if you are demonstrating toxic traits on a regular basis and you are constantly finding excuse for your behavior while simultaneously finding reasons to blame other people to justify your own actions

and there is a pattern there, then I personally, just me personally, I would see that person as toxic. And we can get into the semantics of whether they're toxic or they have toxic traits, but I would just be like, I don't want to fuck with that person. They're not good for me to be around.

If I had to label it, I would say she's unwilling. She's an unwilling person. Unwilling to accept her traits, accept her flaws, and hold herself accountable. If I could label her, I think unwilling is probably the best I would use. Unwilling. Very generous. You're a nice guy, Marshall. Well, thank you, Nick. What has this experience taught you about yourself that makes you realize you have things to work on? Yeah.

I mean, we talked about a little bit of it and you know, that Bob, the builder trait can't have that shit anymore. Captain save them all. Can't save them all. Yeah. And one of the biggest lessons that I learned is that I can only control and

regulate myself and my emotions. And I can't worry or even give a fuck about what other people think, you know? Yeah. And how they're feeling. How are, going forward in a dating situation, how do you feel like you're going to recognize someone that you are attracted to that might need a little bit more fixing than they should? You know, like, how are you going to recognize that going forward? Because I can tell you from personal experience, like it's in your blood, man. And my guess is in the future, whether you're aware about it or not,

there will just be something about people that you're attracted to, your ability to help them out, you know? So how do you feel like you're going to be able to recognize that? Listening to them. And there's certain buzzwords that people throw out who are actively working on themselves. Heal. Healing.

Healed is a big one. If they're in therapy, green flag. Are you in therapy? I have been in therapy, yeah. What else? Yeah, just taking what they say and when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

Maya Angelou. I feel like Marshall should do something on the call map. I was like, that was beautiful. Read me a story. In a world. I am kind of curious about Brett. And I just know that that was a really close friendship. And so from your vantage point, it seemed like, you know, we almost didn't talk about Brett and Tiffany because they were just so exemplary in all these ways. And it was just such a beautiful relationship. And it was like, what kind of shit is there to stir about

this? Like zero. And so I'm curious, like, just from your perspective, like, were there any points where that relationship maybe had growing moments or trials and tribulations that they navigated together or kind of like what was it like from your perspective man brett and tiffany are the example they had navigated their normal relationship and flow masterfully they didn't involve anyone else whatever they. Whatever they dealt with, they dealt with. And if they wanted to talk about it, they talked about it. And so I don't really know if they had any points of contention, but I do know that Tiffany moving from Seattle to Portland was a big issue. Not a big issue, but it was a big

part of their story. And the way that Brett handled it, I think he should teach a masterclass on making someone feel safe and heard. Brett is quite literally the, he's iconic in my mind. He's my big brother. And I take a lot of, I look up to him in those moments because of the grace that he gave himself and Tiffany. Well, there was that moment where Tiffany was being emotional. We talked about this on a recap and most people, and I would include myself, and certainly in the past, would have tried to find solutions. Bob the Builder hat.

And your boy just listened. He just sat there. He said nothing. He was just there and supportive. And like that, that's kind of the energy I was talking about earlier. And I think it's just, it's not instinctual, uh, for, for a lot of us guys to do that. Um, Brett is a stone cold killer. Brett has, you know, I don't, I'd be curious to ask him where he learned that or if that's always been something that he has done but um he's clearly demonstrated an ability to not always feel the need to to fix or explain or problem solve but

rather just be there in support yeah yeah yeah can you explain to me kwame because as a man looks like he hates his wife no no no no no kwame no, no. Kwame. I'm just watching TV. Yeah, I know. I just like. I know. Looks like he hates his wife. There was a lot that went into Kwame and Chelsea's relationship. Kwame left everything in Portland for Chelsea.

And I think that speaks a lot to his character because he was a guy that very much flew by the seat of his pants. If he wanted to be in Mexico for half the year, he went to Mexico for half the year. And him giving that up, as well as his friends, his home in Portland, his soccer, he left all of that for Chelsea. He is a stand-up guy. He really is. But is he happy? Yes, he is. I would say kwame is happy he has gone through his his periods of of of figuring it out just like all of us would and i i truly believe

he is happy did you personally think in watching the show back and seeing the conversations that he had with micah like just from your standpoint did you feel like that was in kind of murky waters or crossed any lines or do you think that was blown out of proportion? Yeah, no, I will say this to Kwame's face. That was fucked up. But I understand because there was a lot of alcohol at that party.

That seems to be the thing. That's what we heard. That's what we heard. There was a lot of alcohol at that party and that was the first time seeing the other women or seeing the other people. Like the men seeing the women for the first time, the women seeing the men for the first time. So his feelings that he felt for Micah in the pods were real. And seeing her for the first time time that probably drummed up some shit

and he did and he navigated the best he could in the midst of an alcoholic bend bender or whatever you know tequila bender uh what did you think of uh we of the uh the paul little ass grab flick that they showed at the reunion man i don't know't know about that. That looks dirty. I don't know, man. You explain it to me because as a guy, I don't know how I can Paul's my guy. I'm just like, I don't know how to explain it. Yeah, and quite honestly,

that looks like a guy who unnecessarily touched a woman, which happens all the time. Guys be doing that at the bar, just put my hand on your hip, you know? It's like, no, you don't need to put your hand on anyone's hip you you can you can walk through the crowd without are you doing this in the urinals yeah so like i'm not going to speak too much of this because i mean that's whatever the fuck that is but that looks i will say halfway out the door i will say though i will say that I personally have done that.

Because if I'm like rolling past someone and I'm like, oh, sorry. I think his hand placement was fucked up. I would have gone a little higher. I would have did a shoulder tap. You do that with guys? Oh, yeah. Bro, let me get past you, bro. And I pat him on the back, especially in the club.

On the back. Especially. That's what I'm saying. I saw it this weekend. I saw guys touching women's hips and no guys are touching my hip you know no i say i say the hand placement it's like it is an instinct it's like you see his shoulder touch her so then it's kind of like an apologetic sorry about that but the hand placement the hand placement is wrong the hand placement is wrong

however let's just move on from that because that is that it is that let the internet handle that. That's not my place to talk about. Marshall. I feel like that's a soundbite. Let the internet handle that. You're a character witness here.

Answer me this. If that were sus, you think that would be an out of character moment for Paul then? I don't think Paul would have slapped the bridesmaid's booty. No, I don't think he would have done that no but he did that's what it looks like nick that's what it looks like nick but i will say that it was the hand placement all right it was the hand placement very very poor placement of your hands buddy yeah gotta go higher guys

stop touching women's hips out in crowds you don't need to it's unnecessary they don't like it they fucking hate it you don't need to bounce you don't need to guide yourself through the crowd yeah where are you at now in your life this was a year ago where's your love life

where's your heart so I have been seeing someone but with all of this new incoming life or whatever this is, I don't know how to navigate it as me, and I need to take some time to figure myself out because I can't pour into myself right now,

so how am I possibly going to pour into a relationship? Does she know that? Yeah. So you're not seeing her? Because that sounds like some fuckboy shit. No, no, we've we've like we're seeing each other but i need to work on myself nick don't label me bro i'm just i'm not trying to i'm actually very communicative but you get what i'm saying though you get what i'm saying like we we have all these people call in and they're seeing these guys and then it's like they say they like me and we're dating but

like they can't right now and listen i would understand why your head and heart is where it's like they say they like me and we're dating but like they can't right now and listen i would understand why your head and heart is where it's at yeah but i'm just saying like are you emotionally available or are you not emotionally available to the people you're seeing right now oh i'm always going to be emotionally available we've talked about all of that however it's just navigating this world and being a regular person four weeks ago or how many weeks ago, now being transitioned to a not so regular person. It's difficult. It's very difficult. And so I don't know how to navigate that right now. And so I don't know how to be a public figure, if that's the word for it. I don't know how to be that. And it was actually brought

to me. So my fraternity brother actually put this in very simple layman's terms for me. And I'm graduating from high school and I'm going to college and there's all this new experience. And I have to figure out the campus. I have to figure out where my classes are. I have to know where my dorm is at. And I have to figure that out by myself right now. However, I do believe that I am not closing myself off to love. Not at all. So as it stands with this new person, how would you label it? In my mind, it's complicated and I should uncomplicate it and make things very simple for her because I feel like that there are, that there's no points of contention between us. And I feel like she's going to write in and ask Nick and be like, I'm in a situation ship with this guy.

Yeah. With this reality star. I really like him. You know, he's gone through a lot and she's going to spend all this time empathizing with you. We literally had an ask Nick caller of someone who's been on a reality show. And she's saying like, and so, and that's one of the biggest points for me is I don't know how to navigate being so public.

It's like, like I'm exposed in, in, in like, I don't know if I want to be in an exposed relationship with someone that I met in private. I could see if I had gone the distance with Jackie and we were in a relationship now we both signed up for that,

you know, but I met this woman in private and she's a very private person. And so I don't, I don't know how to navigate that with her quite yet. And I don't even know how to navigate myself. So I'm putting myself first. Well, that's great.

So can I offer you some advice? Yes, please. I would just communicate that with her very directly. And then I wouldn't, um, you know how in like dating situations we're like hey listen i'm just going through a lot right now and i'm dealing with i need to work on myself

and then we think us letting them know that is enough but it isn't because then they'll say well you know i want to be there for you if you know that you're need to work on yourself and you know like because she's not going to fix you, right? You know what I'm saying? She didn't go through this experience with you, right? Right. So if you know that you need to work on yourself and you know, which is normal,

you need to take some time to process, like you kind of have to be the bad guy. You kind of have to say like, right now I'm literally not. You can't leave the door open for them to kind of have to be the bad guy. You kind of have to say like, right now I'm literally not. You can't leave the door open for them to kind of come and go. And because you're like, hey, well, I told them.

I told them that I need to take things slow. I told them that I'm not ready right now. It's manipulative. And they keep showing up. So it's like not on me. Yeah. You know, I just think you need to be the one who says I really can't right now.

And it's because, and I don't want to lead anyone on. And you kind of have, you have to be the bad guy, so to speak. Because otherwise it turns into like, you know, it turns into, it's a situation shit waiting to happen. And she's going to think of you as a fuck boy. And she's going to make a TikTok six months from now. But it's tough. I get where you're're at but i think in a lot of situations we see these with like a lot of dating situations especially with guys where they think they're being up front and in a way they are

but they use that upfrontness as an excuse to allow that person to still try in a situations where deep down, you know, it's not worth them trying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's real. Yeah. That's real. I appreciate that. I just, you know. Yeah. I appreciate that. All right. We do this thing called texting office hours. We have people call in right in. And for the sake of time, we're just going to read you a written story. Okay. And we're going to offer this person of advice. We'd love for you to use some of your wisdom, your knowledge, the things that you've been through, the therapy that you've worked through to help solve this.

As a collective, we're going to try to solve this person's problem. Pitch a bunch of solutions here. So take it away. Yeah. Okay. So this is someone writing in on behalf of their friend Jenna. So Jenna is 22 and a senior at college in Nashville and has been dating a new

guy for a few weeks. She's been considering ending things with him because they don't know each other very well. Conversation isn't flowing and she just doesn't think they're equipped for the fast approaching long distance they will be forced into come graduation. An old flame of Jenna's is newly single. Jenna and this old flame were best friends. He confessed his love for her. She turned him down. He started dating someone else and they've been dating for a few years until now when he ended things. Turning this guy down is one of Jenna's greatest regrets. I personally think she's in love with him. She feels more herself around him than anyone else. And when she looks at him, she can visualize their future. He reached out to her this week. They cut off and she said she thought they both could, quote, feel it. Her current guy is hot and smart, but old flame is, quote, soulmate vibes.

All this to say, these two guys are in the same frat and Jenna is attending a frat event in the next few weeks as the date of her current guy. But old flame will also be there. Jenna has zero idea what to do. Does she end things with the current guy before after the event does she end things with the current guy at all does she hang out with new with old flame before ending things with current guy does she make her decision about current guy contingent on the future with old flame where does she go from here have them show up your sorority house there's one rose take it away marshall i don't know i think the them being in the same fraternity complicated things uh to the point where i'm like you should

probably not date both of them either of them uh in my opinion either i don't think you should because that's i don't know how but then it's like there's a little context missing so who who knew who first, the old flame, how long have they known each other? Uh, cause that, that kind of determines whether,

you know, that's, that's a lot. I don't personally, I don't want to give any bad advice, but I will say if I were in your shoes and I was dating someone who was in a sorority with the same girl, old flame,

whatever, I personally wouldn't do it. Um, because I understand those that that dynamic of being in a fraternity or or sorority whatever you want to go i understand that dynamic i understand hopping and jumping ship and doing this you don't want to be labeled a homie hopper even if it is an old flame but i just think there's some context missing there i would love to hear you think okay so she's only been dating the new guy for a few weeks.

That's, I think, also something. Oh, a few weeks. Okay. The new one is very new. Yeah, it was just, it's old flame was in a longer. I was in a fraternity or a sorority. You seem to be more familiar with that culture,

but I get what you're saying. I'm guessing it can be gossipy, rumor mill. Yeah, yeah. You want to stay away from that stuff. You want to stay away from jumping to different members of the fraternity. Is she in a sorority that's affiliated with this fraternity? You know how sometimes there's connections?

Yeah. I don't think you're usually linked forever. You'll do events with them. If she is in a sorority to marshall's point i can understand the context that marshall offers which is it's a tight community but i think in to play to play devil's advocate on that it's very common for people to switch i mean there was one guy in a frat who was like trying to date both me and a girl who lived on my floor without us knowing like it's close but it's not unheard of to like constantly be swapping around if we're basing if we're taking the the the letter at face value i mean she said that rejecting that guy was one of her life's biggest regrets

yeah well then well then at that point i think that that's that's that's fair to explore that but still the new guy is hot that's that's hot and smart but the conversation isn't flowing and they're not getting to know each other well so she likes his resume that's it yeah jenna explore the old flame but be careful so how would how would you recommend? Yeah. So how would you, so there's this event. How bad does she want to go to the event? That's a good question. Like,

is it like too soon? Is it the party of all parties or is it just an event? Because she doesn't need to go to the event. So it's an event, but this is, she's about to graduate. And so I think there's like a lot of nostalgia. And you save your budget for the last event of the year.

And it's usually good. Frat, frat events. Wait until after. She wants to go to this usually good. Frat events? Wait until after. She wants to go to this party? Go to the party. Wait until after. Don't talk to either of them at the party. Done. Have your fun. She has to go to the date.

Pick somebody else. Be impartial. Pick someone who is neutral. We recommend her to use the first guy to get access to the date. Make other guy jealous. That's messy. Don't do it. Don't do it. If you go,

if you know someone else in this fraternity and they don't have a date and you want to go to the, you really want to go to the party, then ask them to go. But if you can skip out on the party, don't,

just do it. Don't go. I think the odds of Old Flame inviting her to the party are high though because clearly he's reached out. They had this whole conversation. I think there's a world in which she could very politely amicably nicely end things with new guy yeah and still show up as the other guys

but i think she has to be honest she's our big events listen like this guy breaking up i was like no you want to be at this party. You do. You do. But what if she was like honest with the new guy about why she was sending it? It was like, listen, I know this is like so shitty. No, he doesn't need to know. But there's a guy. Well, because then he's going to see her dating his friend after the fact. I think it's better to get ahead of the narrative and to be like, I know this is really shitty

and bad timing for you, but he's now single. She's not on for two weeks. And she's also 22. 22? you can make mistakes you're in this your love is blinding you were engaged but you're the guy she's dating you're the hot smart guy you're not the old flame

in a way I only point that out because if I say it's different but this new she's dating for two weeks weeks in a way. I just, I only point that out because if I say, and I, it's different, but this new, she's dating for two weeks. How much? Weeks.

We know it's plural. We don't know if it's two, but yes. A few weeks. A few weeks. Let's say it's a month. Yeah, I don't know if she really needs to say,

does she need to say, just say it's not working. But I feel like you have to get ahead of the narrative because. What if we just, I think she's up, she needs to be up front with the other guy hey okay she breaks up with current guy goes to the old flame and says hey surprise i want to i want to i want to see what's up here let's let's explore this and he's like great explore this. And he's like, great. There's this party. He's like, yeah, I know about the party. She should then tell Old Flame,

well, did you know I was dating? He must know. Old Flame knows she's been dating someone probably, right? So, and it's his fraternity. It's his problem. Be like, do you think we should go? Or how about we just do our own thing? And maybe he plans, you know.

He's not skipping that for anybody. His seat, no. Okay, then that's his problem. But let him decide. It's his party. Yeah. If they break up, is he going to go find another date? Oh, this is new guy?

We're not worried about new guy. Yeah. Old flame? He's hot and smart. He'll be fine. You'll find someone to go. Yeah. I think they're all gonna end up at like

the top of the sears tower together who the new guy will find somebody new or yeah sure he'll be fine yeah he'll be fine yeah apparently he's hot and smart they'll all be fine they're they're seniors in college like whatever but i i think she breaks up with the new guy because all he has is hot and smart to her and he can't't hold a conversation. The biggest regret of her life. So clearly she should pursue that. The opportunity is right there. And as far as the party goes, let Old Flame decide what he thinks is best. He's familiar with the fraternity.

He's familiar with the people. He's familiar with how dramatic he thinks it might be. Let him decide if it's smart if you two go. And the only thing is if she decides to go, does she need to give the current guy a heads up? I mean, I would say so. It would be the nice thing to do. Yeah. I think so, yeah.

Yeah, I would say so, yeah like i know this is awkward but i just wanted to give you a heads up there you go jenna you have your marching orders yeah that's what i would do go for it marshall i know you got to get going uh i really appreciate your time what are any any final thoughts you want to leave with us uh about your experience, your future, what's next? Any final messages for Josh and Jackie? No final messages for them. I just really hope that we can just dead this and drop it and move on. I think that's what's best for all of us at this point, for everyone's mental health. Hopefully, the internet bounces back and they can find some silver lining in their story and they can they can be nice to jackie

uh she's she's not a terrible person she's done some bad things but she's not a terrible person and she deserves to have some kind of positivity on her page and not just fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you you know what i'm saying so that's it hope we can just move on we don't have to be friends but we also don't have to be enemies done well it was very very gracious of you to say marshall where can the audience find you where can they follow you on social media yeah follow me on the gram follow me on the top it's my first name last name uh remind people marshall glaze there you go at marshall glaze on tiktok on instagram or you can follow me on twitter i don't really do too much on Twitter, but Marshall T Glaze on Twitter. Well, we thank Marshall for being so generous with that, all the information he gave us.

We have an exciting week ahead. Micah joins us on Thursday for Going Deeper, an excellent conversation with her about the whole ass pat of it all, her friendship picker some details with paul uh that happened you know that we didn't talk about at the reunion a real great episode with that uh we also have um if you listen if you haven't listened to ask nick last yet it's an amazing episode uh that dropped yesterday uh and then for all the people who love the updates, we behind vile files. Plus we have an amazing update for you from our first caller and more, but it's wild.

You do not want to miss it. Check out vile files. Plus the seven day free trial. You will not regret it. It's amazing. All episodes of better date than never update specials. We have our pop extra on there. Do not miss it.

Marshall. Thank you again. It's been a pleasure. We'll her pop extra on there. Do not miss it. Marshall, thank you again. It's been a pleasure. We'll see right back. Bring a friend anytime and both work out with tons of equipment in the judgment-free zone. Relax in the Black Card Spa and more. Work out and perk out with the Planet Fitness Black Card. Get started for zero down and $29.99 a month plus $49 annual fee. Offer ends March 15th.