The Viall Files - E571 Going Deeper with Love is Blind’s Micah Lussier

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Love is Blind Edition! Today we are joined by Micah Lussier fresh off of filming the Love is Blind Season Four Reunion. Before Micah’s interview, we are joined by Natalie Joy to discuss the latest Vanderpump tea, break down the reunion, and listen to Micah’s thoughts on Paul’s TMZ interview and allegations. Then Micah joins us in the studio and answers all of our questions - from what she thought about Paul after seeing him the first time, to what made their relationship special, to what she thinks about the infamous butt tap between Paul and her bridesmaid moments after he said, “no.”  “If you don’t see yourself marrying me and being a mother, what are we doing?” Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Alo Moves -  For a limited time, Alo Moves is offering our listeners a free 30-day trial PLUS – get this - 50% off an annual membership. But you can only get it by going to https://www.alomoves.com and use code NICKVIALL in all caps.  Drizly - Drizly is the most convenient way to buy beer, wine and spirits, with delivery to your doorstep in under 60 minutes. Download the Drizly app or go to https://www.Drizly.com Brooklinen - Brooklinen’s Birthday sale is almost here! Shop 25% off in store or at https://www.Brooklinen.com Rocket Money - Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions – and manage your expenses the easy way – by going to https://www.RocketMoney.com/viall Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @micah.lussier @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell

What would you do if your partner mid-sex had to blow their nose? I mean, that's not that personal. Sometimes you fart during sex. It's better than the alternative of dripping snot. Yeah. You know, like. Sometimes you fart during sex. One time I drank way too much water.

So the only thing you could hear was just like. The worst. Oh my God. Every frost, it was just like fucking water bed. Everything's just like jostling around you're like I was like trying I've been drinking so I was like I'm gonna chug water so I won't be hung over in the morning and then I was just like

that's definitely going in as a cold open what's going on everybody welcome back to another once again incredible episode of the vile files i'm nick joined by the household of ally amanda and derrick and welcoming back our special correspondent, Natalie Joy, my fiance, to help us break down the reunion, the debacle that was the reunion of Love is Blind, plus, you know, whatever topics we have to talk about before we get to the meat of our episode, which is Micah. What is Micah's last name? It's like Lucier or something.

It feels French. Oh, darling. She's like, it's Lucier. Lucier. Lucier. Lucier. Lucier. Lucier.

Lucier. Lucier. Lucier. Everyone in Fiance sounds like... Probably like Lusser. Lusser. Lucier. Lucier.

Lucier. Lucier. Micah Lucier. This is early what I just said. Anyway, it's Micussier Micah Lussier Micah is with us trying to you know pick up the slack so to speak we appreciate you all who enjoyed

the Marshall Glaze interview if you haven't listened to it it's a great one. It's a doozy. And again, we have Micah here to give us a little more insight in her relationship with Paul, her reasoning behind having him go first,

them dating after the show, things like that. Fill in some gaps for sure. Fill in some gaps. But before we get to that, before we get to even the Love is Blind debacle reunion? Yeah.

I would love to know your take on the whole Tom Sandoval, Raquel, Miraval fiasco. Break it down for me. Cause I am not fully aware of what's going on. I know that Raquel has claimed to go on to a mental health facility. We don't know what that means because you know a nice trip to cancun could be a voluntary mental health facility yeah i could volunteer to take

care of my mental health and and go on a beach i don't know but maybe maybe this is more of a formal thing but then tom went somewhere i was confused about that yeah so it's kind of two separate things one is that raquel said she was going to a mental health facility and then peter friend of show peter commented saying best friend of show bestie of show uh commented saying she's at a spa on instagram so and now it's resurfacing that it might be miraval, which is this really comprehensive wellness facility. They have a lot going on. It's a hotel. Is it a hotel?

Well, when you go on their website, they have everything from beekeepers to tarot card readers to artists to chef is one of the things they advertise. So it's definitely like an all-inclusive resort kind of thing. Like a Soho house kind of excursion, you know, for the creative. It's for the rich. Yeah, like sort of as like a getaway. But there is also some talk about like ways that they do kind of excursion you know for the creative rich yeah like sort of as like a getaway but there is also some talk about like ways that they do kind of like more like spiritual trauma therapy so they definitely address mental health but not the way it might be addressed in a more more

traditional or legitimate inpatient treatment center that a lot of people would kind of assume when you say mental health so it's like a good time. Probably. Yeah, I think it's like indulgent LA people. Like, you know, it's like... So Tom went there. So separate of that, Tom goes to this resort and there's kind of some rumors flying around that he's there. This resort then posts on their Instagram a photo of their bar with a caption,

you know it's our time, these are the best days of our life. Which is... These are the best days of our lives, which is these are the best days of our lives. It's a lyric from their opening song. I'm already a little confused.

Why does this wellness center have alcohol? Isn't that like something? Shouldn't we all be sober and like figuring out? Yeah, I think yet another point where I don't know

many mental health facilities that have alcohol, but I think it really is trying to be. I don't think it's health facilities that have alcohol, but I think it really is trying to be. I don't think it's a mental health facility. What classifies the mental health facility? Because like taking care of one's mental health could mean a variety of different things to a variety of different people.

I think it's a bullshit term that they're co-opting and they do. I think they're just trying to have as much business as possible. Cause I imagine it's so expensive. So they're like, we got to get the people who are in here to like get fucked up and do some archery and also the people

who are detoxing. I've got a horse with a margarita. My mental health is solved. So Tom Sandoval was pretty pissed about this post to their Instagram essentially confirming that he was there as he saw it. It was a bit cryptic.

I mean, they didn't take a picture of him or a video of him they posted a picture of their bar with a caption that included lyrics from the vanderpump theme song yes he didn't go this as we've confirmed with our own investigative reporting, this is not some sort of hospital. No. HIPAA's not applying here. This is a hotel that posted a picture of their bar and a lyric from the caption. Just saying.

Also, he's bringing more attention to it by literally screenshotting it. That's what I'm saying. Also, he's bringing more attention to it by literally screenshotting it. That's what I'm saying. It's just like, you know, every time we do one of these amazing interviews that we have, like, for example, with Michael, like when, kind of a black screen. And Natalie, you know, Shane's ex, not Natalie, my fiance posted how like, there are so many lies and, you know, that Shane was full of shit.

And I was just like, oh my God, thank you, Natalie, for like promoting this episode. Like she blew it up, you know? And I'm just like this hotel that who got only, this tarot card reading hotel posted a picture of their bar on their website and tom decides to go lecture them yeah of all the people to lecture anyone right now tom outs himself he tags them too yeah this hotel must be thrilled he's trying to put them on blast and he is giving them so much free publicity. Come on. He said, I'm beyond disappointed. And Miraval Resorts at Miraval, Arizona, tagging both. Let's make sure at their decision to get a double refund

their Instagram account this weekend, alluding to me staying there this week. They claim to be a refuge for wellness and betterment, but that is obviously false. They'd rather feed into negativity and into the negativity and spectacle that has engulfed my life in a continuous effort to be healthy and work on myself. I planned a trip to go there completely alone to try to find some peace. I planned to go alone and then Raquel showed up at my door. Yeah, amazing point. Miraval clearly isn't the place for that. Special shout out to the general manager who refuses to take any responsibility for the

actions of his team, even though he considered the post, quote, in poor taste, end quote. Regardless of where you stand in all this, we all deserve the chance to work to be better. So what is he disappointed in? So he's he's saying he's mad at the resort as a whole for the Instagram manager because he didn't fire the resort as a whole for the instagram manager because he didn't fire the person yeah so tom sandoval wants this person fired or he says refuse to take responsibility for the actions of his team tom did not write that no i actually wrote that you think those are his words because it's so fucking self-indulgent and like completely unselfaware to like. First of all, I'm so disappointed.

I just don't think Tom Sandoval is like in a position to use the words. I'm so disappointed in literally anyone right now. I don't know. He's like a care of all like he's literally doing a version of Karen where he's like, I'm so angry. You can tell the quote it's in poor taste came from him pestering a general manager on the phone for hours and hours until this general manager was finally like, I hear where you're coming from and I see how this could be perceived as in poor taste. And he's like trying to weaponize it and be like, I've got you sucker. And it's like, the post is down. What else does he want? What other action is there to take? They removed the

post. Maybe he wants a free stay. Maybe he wants to get caught. Does he does he really want this person i mean he doesn't have enough money to have an apartment or move out of the house so yeah he probably just wants i think he wants a scapegoat yeah i don't know i mean it definitely is a little slimy on the resorts i'm not saying it was smart of them and yeah it was probably some like 25 year old like in you know social media manager who is a big vanderpump fan who thought it was a little clever but again they do like they didn't post about him and they didn't really say he was there it just it'd be like if you guys went somewhere and they like posted a random stock image and the caption was will you accept this rose or something yeah and i would have probably rolled my eyes for sure i wouldn't have gone on my instagram and posted like a lecture about decency and etiquette i just like he was caught at tmz the other day

you know giving an interview and he basically went on and on about how people specifically his like cast mates like perpetuating the story all while he's giving an interview and like he doesn't have to give an interview to this guy he could just say hey sorry i'm really i'm running late and just i don't really have anything to say and just repeat that over and over but no he gives like a five minute interview which perpetuates the story this perpetuates the story literally it gives us something to talk about like if tom just stopped doing tom things the story would die he's the one who did the holly mendel interview also thank you but like you're not laying low my guy no yeah he just like kept his head down he's going to coachella with a name tag on t sandy yeah

you know it's like he wants no one to talk about him but he's also simultaneously like upset with ariana for what even wanting to quit the show because she's selfish but like it's just like at every turn it says he makes it more and more clear that he just can't see a world past how like he's the main character in it and I feel like that's one of the like messed up contradictions of the internet of because people are trying to quote hold him accountable but are flooding him with all of this like disapproval hate etc he then is probably more able to cast himself as a victim. And like not everybody does that. Like, for example, Raquel posted a more serious statement.

We've had people who have actually, I think, taken time to, quote, do the work, lay low, etc. But I think that's the danger of like when people are saying like trigger warning, like you should kill yourself and stuff like that in your DMs. Like that person is so clearly wrong. Sure. And so you're giving him ammunition to avoid holding himself accountable and just having to look himself in the mirror. You're giving him another scapegoat and another person to blame.

But he takes the bait. He always takes the bait. Of course he does. Yeah. It's never his fault. Just because someone made it a public matter doesn't mean that you also have to make it a public matter. Let's say you see this post, people show up to. Let's say, like, you see this post.

People show up to this resort and they're like, we want to see Tom. Then you could go up and be like, don't post on IG and just be like, hey, this is really messed up. This post is doing this. But instead, instantly going to IG only just fuels the fire. Yeah. Absolutely. Now we're talking about it. You know how much business Mariel Arizona Resort and Spa is going to get?

I'm curious about this place. I'm like, I would go. Let's go to Maribor. They do sound baths? Yeah. I'm in. They got a bar, so let's go.

You know what else was wild? The Love is Blind reunion. Yes, let's do the Love is Blind. Dear God. Oh my God. What a debacle. Twitter was, I mean, the live tweets coming in

as it got later and later and later, that was a community out there. I mean, other than whatever, we kind of talked about how it was obviously late i mean you know we'll see what happens you know it's interesting i'm i don't think they'll ever do a live show again i saw andy cohen do an interview in response to the whole live element that was the reunion and he was like there's a reason why we don't do live reunions at bravo because you know he's like there's a lot of like to shift through before we get to the meet so to speak which is it's true i mean even you know sometimes when we do interviews you you know

guests will take a while to warm up so to speak before you you know you realize then they kind of get comfortable and they start sharing you know but like with all these people there's so many topics and he was just like we'll spend 45 minutes to an hour on a topic and every once in a while like you know something will come up that we didn't even expect and that becomes like a real focal point or a highlight of the reunion but you really have to kind of massage things and work to get it right and with a with a live, you can't do that because you can't have a three or four hour episode. Like the idea of a live seemed really cool. I was excited about it because it was more like,

who's going to say some crazy shit and then have Netflix not be able to edit it out? What you got was more references to productions and behind the scenes. Like cast were able to kind of blame production a little bit and they were not able to do anything about it because it was still taped for live, essentially, even though it wasn't watched as live. But other than that, it was just a giant mess. And people are really mad at Vanessa

Lachey. They're very mad. And there's actually a petition on change.org that is entitled Remove Nick and Vanessa Lachey as hosts of Love is Blind. And as of right now, 22,044 people have signed it. And at 25,000 signatures, this petition becomes one of the top signed on change.org. Can I humbly request any person who signed that petition also sign another petition that aligns with your values? I'm not going to tell you which one to sign, but like maybe one that's a little more meaningful, like just in addition to. I love that it's.org and not.com.

Like this is official. We're already up to 22, 201. Exactly. Like an NPR. They're not there for the money. They're there for real change. Legit real change. And this is real change.

What did you make of her questioning or lack thereof at the reunion? I didn't get to watch the reunion until later because some people, it's like, you know, some people got to watch part of it live. It was like a Ticketmaster situation with Taylor Swift. Oh, it literally was giving PTSD. So we had heard a lot of feedback when we sat down and watched it that people were upset with Vanessa.

You know, I don't know. Like when we first started watching it, I remember vanessa you know i don't know like when we first started watching it i remember thinking you know because you know as someone who like hosts this show it's easy to be critical of people and these types of situations hosting a live event of a living unit is very hard there's a lot of moving pieces and so i kind of watched it with that lens trying to kind of give someone the benefit of the doubt and i thought the first like 20 so minutes my first reaction was like she's not that bad like i thought people were being a little hard on her and then it just kind of fell off the rails yeah for me it was the that was where i lost it yeah she really it was more of a performance on her part i mean and then

she's an actor by trade so maybe there's a little bit of that. But I think if nothing else, it just goes to show you that it takes some chops and a skill set to conduct these types of interviews. And not just anyone can do it. I think she also just made it

so much about herself. And anytime someone would talk about what they did, she'd be like oh well if you did that like i don't think i would be able to we don't care they we don't care if you would be mad at nick lachey like yeah yeah it was just it just became more and more about her and and kind of just cringy and then you know some of her just her shots. And then she was just like bizarrely, she was bizarrely taking sides.

Like when she interviewed Jackie, you know, where even, it's like even Jackie was trying to sound, like Jackie was clearly trying to demonstrate some humility about, around the whole Marshall of it all. And she was trying to even sound almost empathetic. I forgot what she said.

And then Vanessa like chimes in. She's like, well, I know why you don't, like you guys broke up because you have that man right there. It's just like, well, that's not what we, like let her speak, let her address what we got to watch. The whole season, it wasn't theosh and jackie show it was the jackie and marshall show netflix your you know i guess employer i suppose i don't know who actually

signs her checks but that's the story they chose to tell and like she just kind of had her own version of the narrative uh that she wanted to to talk about which is kind of it was just a little weird yeah she was behaving like a cast member. She was attacking people. She was going at it. And it's like you're supposed to be above the fray. And like you lose your sense of authority. And legitimacy when you're getting so heated.

And to give her benefit of the doubt. I'm sure it was unbelievably stressful. When the live thing was happening. Like I bet that was the biggest clusterfuck. I bet everyone's like cortisol was through the roof. So that was that probably. Maybe not in her best headspace but still kind of what the job is asking of you to go through insane conditions and still

hold down the fort and it just felt like she she lost the fort yeah there was no fortune and then the kid thing got weirder and we're yeah i just like even can we stop asking that question i think she's done that every reunion though. Like, I remember her doing that last season too. You know, we're a relationship podcast so every once in a while it will come up

and I'm always, you know, it's just like, hey, is kids something you're interested in having? And then there's a yes or a no. And if there's a yes,

then maybe there's some conversations but she didn't even, it was always like, when are you having kids? Yeah, yeah. Or you should have kids. Are you gonna have kids? Who's gonna be the first

one to have kids? It feels like the second you get engaged then everyone who sees you is when's the wedding and then the second the wedding happens everyone just jumps straight when's the mother well yeah it's like i will let you know if there's something to know i think it stop asking there was a point at the end where she who did she ask i forgot but like it it seemed fine then but it was just because she had brought it up so many times i mean again it is love is blind they are trying to have these relationships um i'm sure the love is blind family would love to see a baby born from you know the love that has spawned from their show

do we know who bartice's baby mom is yeah Yeah, why doesn't that put that in too, by the way? That is some mystery. Because like, that kid is rather old. The kid was born in December. And he was filming Perfect Match last spring. So,

do we know who the baby mom is? Yeah, her name is out there, but. Yeah, she's 25. She currently resides

in Texas. Her social media, her social media accounts are private. So she's just like, sub. She's just the normie. Her social media accounts are private. Okay. So she's just like sub. She's just the normie. The civilian. The normie.

Yeah. Okay. Who Batiste was clearly fucking before he went on Perfect Match. Right? Yeah. Or very close around that time. I don't know exactly when they filmed, but it was March or April. I think he was daddy when he was filming Perfect Match.

Oh. Uh-oh. Oh, no. Right? Uh-oh. Oh, no. Right? Uh-oh. That might be the last time we ever see Boutisse on Netflix. Yeah, he might take a hiatus for fatherhood. Yeah, I think he might be done.

God willing. It's the best thing for everyone. I don't think he should go on another show now that he is procreated. In terms of who took the biggest L for the reunion, I think it was probably Vanessa. Yes. Lachey. Yeah. I mean,

Bliss nailed it. Bliss was what Zenith was trying to be. I think who took the second biggest L was Zach. Yeah. Not him calling out his Instagram. I just, yeah. Listen,

I'm a Zach fan. Love Zach. And this might be a hot take. I know some of you might disagree because it seems like, listen, like the fan base, it's just like, I as reality TV, once you like like someone, you've decided that like you hitch your wagon to them. And no matter what they do, you know, you want to have their back. And no matter what someone you hate does, you want them to just keep be roasted.

But like, listen, like whatever you think about irena like she came out and delivered a pretty rock solid apology she did more than jackie and josh yeah and this was you know she she already released a statement on instagram and you know we've talked about that and you know you had people in the audience laughing when she started crying to collect herself. And I'm just thinking, like, these are the same people who are accusing her of being a mean girl and being a bully. And, you know, and they're laughing at her because, you know, she's crying, you know, and I'm assuming people are laughing because they assume it's fake. Let's say like what she did was wrong. Her behavior on the show was inappropriate.

what she did was wrong. Her behavior on the show was inappropriate, but I can assure you she's gone through it and taking a beating on social media as a result. And I don't think that her tears and her sadness over it are false. Either way, she delivered a solid apology. And I don't know if she means it. I don't know anything about her. I don't know if she's going to follow through with this apology. I just don't understand. she's going to follow through with this apology i just don't understand like for here's my why here's why i thought zach took the biggest l because arena comes out gives this apology and zach's like basically like thanks for sharing uh by the way i still think you suck and you came on for fame you came on for fame you were so much worse but like hey i don't want anyone to beat up on her anymore but although by the way i do have receipts go check out my instagram it was just a little

much fine if he wanted to just kind of get it out because he it was the first time talking to irina fine but then fast forward towards the end of the reunion when it was the Micah and Paul show. And again, whatever you want to say about Micah, she has also addressed her behavior. She seems to have taken accountability. She's not defending the actions. We get into a little bit with her in the episode a little bit more. Again, you ask the questions, you let them answer like you know you move on but then he goes after micah and he says to micah hey listen paul apologized you know and all you're

doing is trying to punish him after he apologized he basically called out micah for doing the same thing that he did to irina yeah and i'm just'm just like, come on, Zach. I just wanted Zach to just be happy with Bliss. He could have just said to Irina, hey, thank you for apologizing. I hope you mean it, which could have been a little bit of like, I don't know. It's a bit of shade, but it's in a classy way. He could have thrown a little bit of shade by saying, I hope you mean it. I've moved on and I wish you nothing but the best. Like, that's all he had to do.

Because Bliss said, it's hard to see someone you love so much be treated so poorly and I hope you grow to Irina and I thought that was perfect it was like akin to Gwyneth Paltrow's I wish you well like it was like period it's like dignified it gets the point across like it is powerful

but it was it was so unnecessary of Zach he he he crushed the whole season he's happily married. He seems like he has this nice relationship. He's able to tell how he's like besties with Bliss's dad. And then he just kind of lowered himself to Irina's level by trying to kick her while she's down, all while telling the audience not to kick her while she's down. He's like, give her a hand up while he's kicking her.

Yeah, but I have proof that you came here for fame. Go check out's down. He's like, give her a hand up while he's kicking her. Yeah, but I have proof that you came here for fame. Go check out my Instagram. It's like, ugh. What did you guys think about his tie choice? A little too matchy-matchy? I don't remember. Oh, the purple tie because she was wearing a purple dress. I was like, do we like it? Is it too much? I feel like they all do that.

But I feel like Kwame, we have our doubts about him, but he and Chelsea coordinated. They weren't matchy-matchy. I feel like uh you know kwame we have our doubts about him but he and chelsea coordinated they weren't matchy matchy i felt like they went together well and with with zach's tie i was like we gotta help him out into that i gotta help him out it was giving prom speaking of kwame uh and chelsea i mean i was gonna ask because we were very much not seeing the love story on this show did that the reunion change your mind i mean listen at some point you just got to have to take him at their word

yeah it's been a year i do believe their love because i think his apology about the whole situation felt very genuine his apology to. His apology to her family. And then like to all of the viewers. Who took that as. Him not being loyal to Chelsea. Listen I think. It's been a year. Since all of this has happened.

And I think they looked. Equally as strong as Brett and Tiffany. And also. The way it was revealed revealed that Brett lives in Portland and it was not at all kind of viewed as like this obstacle or hurdle that him and Tiffany had to overcome. They had this perfect fairy tale story. It didn't even come up.

Yeah. So for me, that was a real indication of like, oh, wow, they really kind of curated the narrative on this one. I liked Kwame's apology to the family and all those things but when he when it became up between the whole breakup of who broke up with who first oh yeah then kwame started losing me again i thought actually micah handled that well where she kind of paused and said i don't remember it that way, but ultimately it doesn't matter.

She was very focused on taking the high road, even though, listen, what we saw on tape was that Micah clearly broke up with Kwame, right? I mean, he was coming in to propose to her. To Micah? That was like his first choice. When Micah ended things with him? I don't know if there was a, he was talking about proposal, but I do remember him being pretty fucking choice when Micah ended things with him. I don't know. I don't know if there was a he was talking about proposal.

But I do remember him being pretty fucking sad about Micah. And I do think he'd mentioned something about Micah being his top choice. Yeah. And I don't know. Maybe it could have been earlier in the process and they played at them. But they definitely framed it that way. I don't think like Kwame is completely lying that, you know, you know, like his connection with Chelsea, because I think that's where it is. Like what we saw was i'm obsessed with micah micah breaks up with me pivot to chelsea is

like a second option and i would believe hey listen she wasn't my second option it was more of kind of a simultaneous thing and maybe micah was fading out but he he went a little too far trying to like sell the point where like he had the breakup like letter and his yeah it just seemed a little like he was trying a little too hard in that department he lost me a little bit there listen i don't know about like kwame it's just like you can't blame it all on editing because it was for me it was all his reaction shots of like what seemed like disdain to every idea that Chelsea had. The only thing I don't get, because he basically said like, I was a world traveler. I was a no man.

I was never home. And now he's just completely shifted his life. And I'm just wondering like, why? That's what I want to ask him. And I guess he's going to say, well, because I love this woman so much, but like, what was it about this relationship? Other than you met on TV and it's all about love. I'm still not convinced that deep down, Kwame hasn't convinced himself that he is in love and that this is a relationship for him. Because I just, I don't see the passion. And I see a guy who had a completely different life.

And then that all drastically changed for this life and i'm just how is that sustainable if he is so sad about letting the life he loves so much behind it just doesn't seem like chelsea is making him so happy to let it go and if i'm i hate that we feel this way but it's also hard for me to wonder why Netflix would want to make us doubt this relationship so much. Like what's in it for doing that? Maybe just really needing that storyline of Micah and Kwame went in Mexico and wanting to legitimize it and make it seem like it was still,

well, it still happened. Yeah. What did we make of the Micah and Chelsea, like behind the scenes footage that they, that they aired? Oh my gosh. Where Micah and Chelsea are walking the dog and Micah's like,

Hey, listen, I just want to address like that was inappropriate of me. It seems like some of the fan base, like they don't, they don't want an apology. It's just like, they just want a crucifixion.

Like, it's like if some of y'all were like watching this in medieval times you would just be like off with their head they're throwing stones at them yeah until like they like actually executed someone and then you'd be like well you know maybe we're a little too hard on them you know like why where's the grace in this society yeah i don't know i mean i will say it was an interesting nugget to learn that irena messaged bliss after mexico it was like you dodged a bullet yeah but at the same time texting zach i wish you nothing but the best i hope something works out with you and bliss like it sounds a little calculated a shitty thing like irena sucked hard on that show and she definitely was a mean girl but i'm willing to you know have this very

intense experience in public shame that she received be something that makes her go i don't want to be thought of this way you know and i'm really disgusted by my actions and i am embarrassed by what i got to see and humbled by it and want to like make change. I don't know. Like I do want to believe that that's possible. Like what is she supposed to do? Imagine Irina is your best friend, your ride or die. Obviously she's fucked up, but nothing is going to, no amount of being shitty to her is going to eliminate the fact that she fucked up. So what do you want her to do going forward? There's nothing for you to say. Like you're going to criticize her no matter what.

It feels like with the internet sometimes. Yes. And a lot of us have been mean girls and a lot of us have been assholes or rude and we've all had to apologize for things. I just, you know, again, I think Irina sucked and Micah sucked at times. But like, I think you have to take their apology

and see if they mean it i'm curious to know your take on this i recently have thought about this and it's i feel like before tiktok it was really only like major celebrities who were getting trolled or like people you know people were saying terrible things under their stuff and now I feel like so many people's like TikToks go viral like random stuff will go viral and they have a sense of like mean people come after them do you think that like because of that because normal people are getting a sense of like what Kim Kardashian has been through for the last 30 years or whatever that like people are going to be nicer going forward. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah.

Do you think you're saying more and more people will have experienced a taste of attention and have more empathy towards others going forward? Yeah. No. Maybe. I don't know. I feel like it's the people who are so critical and terrible and write mean things under strangers post. Well, that's what I'm saying.

It's just like, even people listen to this interview. I don't know what your expectation, you know, like we had a great conversation with Micah. I'm excited for you guys to listen to it. Some of you are all like, stop fucking talking, get to Micah, but like, whatever. We asked her these questions. She answered, you know, it's up for you to decide

whether you believe her or not. But yeah, I just know that some people will have decided they don't like Micah. And that's what part of reality TV is for, for all the people who went on, you know, Irina's or Micah's Instagram and wrote anything nasty. How are you any better than what they did? That's, that's what I don't understand. Okay. Brene Brown has the best quote about this. And it's, if you're not in the arena getting your ass kicked on occasion, I'm not interested in or open to your feedback. There are a million cheap seats in the world today filled with people who will never be brave with their own lives, but will spend every ounce of energy they have hurling advice and judgment at those of us trying to dare greatly. Their only contributions are criticism, criticism cynicism and fear-mongering if you're

criticizing from a place where you're not also putting yourself on the line i'm not interested in your feedback that's great yes brené brown she's the one who i'm like you have to read her book oh thank you for that no that's uh that's great yeah so it's just like i don't know and uh i i just i was really disappointed in my man zach yeah i think that about does it for for the reunion now before we get to micah we did this interview with micah on monday and then obviously since then paul got stopped uh by tms at the airport and made some comments about Micah going off to Europe and the whole breakup. And so we reached out to Micah post-interview and asked her if she wanted to address Paul's comments about their rendezvous after the altar or after the wedding or whatever you want to call it. And Micah, you know, graciously decided to send us uh her thoughts

and we're going to kick off her interview by uh playing those thoughts so basically we just ask her to respond to paul's comments about uh him accusing her of running off to europe with another guy and dating someone else right afterwards and here's what Micah had to say. Yeah. Paul's definitely out here making some claims. It's already been made public that he moved on really quickly after our breakup with someone else in the cast. And that's absolutely within his right. I was never angry about that. I'm not angry about that. And I went on this Europe trip that he's talking about months after we had broken up. And that's my right too. We're both single people. We both deserve to be happy.

We deserve to find our person. Unfortunately, it wasn't each other. And that sucks. It did suck. It still sucks, if I'm being honest. But it is what it is. And it's been a year. And I think it's just time to move on.

And moving forward, I have no intention of throwing him under the bus. And I hope he gives me the same respect what do we think classy queen yeah she seems like she's trying to take the high road here you know and ever since she's been called out for her behavior she you know i think she did a good job of answering our questions you guys can be the judge of that please pop off in the comments be kind you. Be critical, but be kind. People write productive comments all the time that are geared towards accountability. People can write constructive, negative feedback for sure or just share a funny opinion. It's just the blatantly hateful, cynical, dehumanizing stuff that crosses the line.

She seems to have learned a little bit. And I'm open to seeing if that is the line. She seems to have learned a little bit and I'm open to seeing if that is the case and going forward, you know, who am I to say? I don't know the person, you know, and after speaking with her, you know, she seems like she wants to be thought of as a different type of person rather than the woman that we thought of as a mean girl. So you be the judge going forward. I don't know about you, but sometimes I am a creature of habit. And when it comes to my fitness, I can do the same things over and over. And I get bored of working out. It gets a little mundane. Well, if you're looking to mix up your fitness

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of fun be sure to check that out uh where people are sharing a bunch of wacky dating stories sex stories and we're learning a lot we have a doctor doctor, Dr. Pierce in the chats every week, giving us her medical expertise. Also, don't forget we have an update special dropping tomorrow behind Vile Files Plus. If you checked out Arasnic on Monday, it's an update from our first caller, the lesbian woman who's in a relationship with a man who didn't know what to do. Well, she has an insane update. If you haven't also listened to that update and you like people's dating stories, go ahead and check out our Ask Nick episodes. They are the flagship of this show. I promise you, you guys are going to love it.

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So check that all out. And once again, if you haven't checked out the Marshall episode, go ahead and do that. All right, let's get to the Micah episode. Micah, welcome. Hi, thank you. How is your heart?

My heart's okay. It's on the mend at this point. It's on the mend. I think it had a little re-cracking after seeing the finale, but we're good. We're good. Okay. Well, I guess let's get right into the finale. It seems like there were a lot of tough moments.

Yeah, yeah. a lot of tough moments. Yeah. Yeah. I guess, I mean, going into the wedding, where would,

what would you say your confidence level was that you would leave a married woman? Yeah. I mean, my confidence is in the dirt at that point in so many different ways. Like I pretty much spent the entire day of my wedding crying. I think that kind of equates to why I look like I'd been dragged through a bush by the end of it. Okay. The whole morning you were crying. I think that kind of equates to why I look like I'd been dragged through a bush by the end of it.

Okay. The whole morning you were crying. Yeah. I just felt like shit. Honestly, I felt like I was walking up to the end of my relationship. What made you feel that though? Because it was, you know, watching it, we didn't see that. No.

What was it about that, that, you you know for someone who was crying all morning and we've all been there right we've been there in relationships where you just like something in your gut telling you something's off like what was what was it for you that made you feel like this isn't going to go the way i hoped in the days leading up to the wedding there was like no reassurance at all um on paul's end he was like really back and forth and I feel like if you're kind of back and forth on a relationship or a marriage it's like it's probably going to be a no and we just had so many conversations about you know is this right like are we going to do it and I never got reassurance from him that was something we struggled for our whole

relationship he never was able to like tell me like or show me or tell me that he like loved me or wanted to be with me I know and it was it it was no different there. So I was just bummed. And there's so much pressure, you know, from production and, and to have this decision made at the altar, there's just, there's just so many emotions and it did not feel good. How many conversations did you have with Paul about the possibility of, conversations did you have with Paul about the possibility of it's like hey we could get married but what if we just dated like I know it's love is blind obviously we know how the show works and obviously the pressures whether it's outside pressures from the fan base or the show itself you got family there yada yada but what conversations if any did you guys have around that idea or was that really something that because the show works the way it is it's not

really necessarily something that's on the table to discuss yeah i think just the way the show set up it really feels like marry or bust like you know you you don't feel like that's an option but it was something that was kind of scooted over like what if we just dated i even remember in mexico like one of the first conversations like Paul and I had once we cameras were gone and we were like in the room together he was like uh are we actually gonna get married and I was like where are we not I guess not uh I don't know I just think that he probably understood that it was just too quick for him from the beginning which i do understand i think it was too quick but i think as the momentum led up to

the wedding i think it kind of both had us feeling some type of way like oh my god like maybe we should do this i mean we were so in love i think the logic was just never really behind it okay uh but for you after you got a you got to Mexico you were were you kind of committed to if this works out I'm gonna get married I was really open I think you know coming on the show I wasn't like if I don't get married like I don't know what's gonna happen like you know I feel like a lot of people had that mindset like I gotta find someone I gotta leave here married I was like you know this is a great experience so I fall in love if I want to get married I'll do it and if I don't I won't but you know throughout the experience I fell so in love with Paul that I was willing to take the leap.

Gotcha. What did you love about Paul in your relationship? Because to be honest, I had a hard time seeing the love on camera. I think everyone had a hard time seeing the love on camera. You guys looked like a couple of pals. You seemed like there's a lot of respect yeah you know like yeah you know a lot of admiration yeah you thought each other were nice yeah i wouldn't have been surprised if i saw a couple pats on the head but i didn't

i didn't see the passion but maybe to your point maybe that's just nerves yeah or it kind of sucked help us understand the relationship. It sucks seeing it like that. I think Paul, Paul and I both just kind of, we weren't the most keen on like filming. We weren't like, oh yeah,

let's go put on a big show. Like time to kiss. Let's make out. Like it was really hard for us to show that on the camera. Like we actually struggled with that a lot. I remember even like in the cenote, like when we like jumped in and stuff, like from back our producers was like all right can you guys kiss or something like can we get something here and we're just like can you look in love yeah and it was

just hard for us because we generally we really were we really were in love but we just we kind of had a hard time like showing it in front of cameras i would say the best of paul and i was when we were alone interesting uh what was your very first reaction seeing paul seeing paul i was i think paul's obviously hot i mean i think he's the hottest guy on the show in my opinion so i'm like yeah i think he's hot yeah he's pretty yeah he's pretty yeah no i think he's i think he's really cute but when i first saw him i you have like an image in your head like we never talked about what each other what did you think he looked like i don't know like what was like big i was like you thought he was taller where's the rest of him i know how tall is he no he's tall he's like i think he's like six

one maybe six foot he told me he was six two two in the pods. I was like, I think you're missing a few inches. That guy is not six, two. There's no way. Guy height and girl height is very different. Usually if you're six, two, which I am, you,

you don't need to lie. And if I, if a guy says he's six, two, I generally believe him. I even believe six, one. I don't believe six foot.

When I hear six foot, I have question marks. Me too. Me too. And five, five, 11 is five, 10, 100%. Yeah. Oh Me too. 5'11 is 5'10. 100%.

6'5 is 5'9. 100%. Do you think he's 6'1? I don't know. Maybe 6'1. I remember in the pods, Kwame told me he was 6'1. I was like, when I saw him, I was like, wait a minute. What's happening here?

I think everyone was just saying that i remember the guys are you allowed to like tell yeah how does that work yeah it's about you physically yeah you're allowed to i don't just don't just make you look superficial yeah likely right yeah i i think a lot of people would like compare themselves like celebrity lookalikes or something to like try to say what they look like and i was like i'm not going down that road that's the last thing that i need some of the celebrity lookalikes that people threw out there they megan fox oh yeah megan fox oh my god yeah was that was that irina's comparison or did someone else i think irina was like i've gotten that before that i i've been told i look like faking fox or something i don't

think she was trying to compare herself like i'm as hot as Megan Fox, but it definitely came off like that. I was like, I would never say that. You're not setting yourself up for success. It's an automatic L because then you're being compared next to that person. It's like, okay, we don't look like Megan Fox. She's got brown hair. Yeah, I don't know.

Anyways, what were some of the other celebrity comparisons thrown out there? Brett got Jason Derulo, I think think i can actually see that i can see that one for sure yeah i think someone said marshall looked like will smith i think i saw a tiktok of the two of them outside of brett's wedding and someone had captioned it along this line of like jason derulo and will smith having a but marshall didn't we don't we have no evidence that marsh Marshall was in the pod. I don't think either of them were in the pod saying that.

I think it was the other guys kind of talking. I know Paul was saying that he looked like, I forgot that guy's name, the star of the show You. Okay. Oh, yeah, from Gossip Girl. Penn Bradley? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Penn Bagley?

Penn Bagley. Is it Penn Bagley? Okay. Which I kind of see. I think his demeanor is more like him. I don't know if the U fans are coming after me Oh god yeah I think his demeanor

aligned more with him more than his looks but I guess I can kind of see it Yeah I can see a little bit Yeah If someone had asked you point blank

like who do you look like who is your celebrity lookalike That's literally a question I would never answer like I don't know But here in the company of friends In the company of friends

Honestly I've never been told I look like anyone I think one time someone I was like in Hawaii company of friends. In the company of friends. Honestly, I've never been told I look like anyone. I think one time someone, I was like in Hawaii and someone was like, oh, you look like that girl from Blue Crush. But I don't even know who that is. You're smart. You're not taking the bait.

Kate Bosworth? Is that who? Oh, I don't know. Yeah, kind of. I've seen it in the face. Kate Bosworth. Maybe on a good day. So you thought Paul might have been bigger and taller.

Yeah, I think it was just the it was just the comparison it was what i had in my head for seeing him and then when you you guys you know hug and you kiss and you say i love you and then you leave when's the next time you see one another you don't see them until you're literally walking into the resort in mexico wild yeah you don't even take a flight together no i don't want you talking no i you know i was you have nothing you don't even have like a magazine no phone just staring at the window one thing they don't really talk a lot about on the show they talk about it a little but they really don't get into the weeds is like how like sex fooling around you've met a stranger you're engaged to a stranger you've had all these

conversations but like you know some people it seemed like they were hooking up right away some people like what were the conversations that you and paul had around getting physical and and stuff like that because uh i'm assuming those are important conversations that you have to have there's a lot of have. There's a lot of potential expectations. There's a lot of chances for both people to just not be on the same page. So it's important to have these conversations. How did you guys approach that topic? Yeah, we were really honest with each other. Honestly, we were honest with each other. We weren't really honest with everyone else. We're fibbing. Yeah, we were hooking up, but we didn't

want to... I was just like, my mom mom's gonna be watching the show i think day two day two okay or yeah day two or day three we hooked up for the first time before the pool party yeah okay and it's funny because i was watching back and it shows like chelsea's like yeah i was getting wrecked and i was like oh me and paul haven't it's like my hair is like out to here we had just hooked up for the first time i was like i just did all my parents at this point it's like so much is out there i don't even care anymore but like my idea was like oh i want to be like at first yeah you're pretty self-conscious yeah speaking of the pool party kwame you and kwame what's like what was up with that what is up with that i i still just my humble opinion i know they went to the union and they told everyone they're all love.

I don't fucking buy it. I don't see if I, if I didn't see anything between you and Paul, I definitely didn't see anything between. Yeah. Well, I mean, I saw,

I'm certainly Chelsea is in it. She's in it, but yeah. Kwame looks like he hates her. I don't know. I think they got, honestly, I think they got a bad role.

I didn't, I didn't see them that bad in person. they did seem like they were into each other but it's his reactions to every time she says something like you're mine and he's like where's the door yeah no but with you he seemed to have and that and i think that's the struggle that a lot of people had we we saw the comparison the juxtaposition between uh kwame and chelsea and kwame and micah yeah did you guys ever resolve because you know last time uh kwame talked about you he said he would always have a you would always have a special place in his heart yeah um god yeah i don't know the pool party for all i was so intoxicated. Kwame could have been Paul. I didn't know who it was at this point.

But... Was everyone? Because it seemed like everyone was just like, Paul was talking to Irina, right in front of you. Yeah, everyone was like with their own person, like, what's going on? No.

I always love his blinds. I was like, honestly, I don't know what they look like. Yeah, I'm like, Paul? No, I don't know. It was a disaster. I was definitely really drunk. I think it was disrespectful. I think we both disrespected our fiancés. But there's so many feelings. I think I was kind of overcompensating. I felt bad about our breakup. I was under the impression that he was probably still hurt from it just from,

I don't know, the way he was talking, the things he was saying, and how the breakup went. So I think I was overcompensating a little bit. I wasn't interested. I get why it looks like I was at 100. I'll own that. It looks like I was like, yeah, let's get out of here. But it was just not like that. Okay.

We're blaming it on the alcohol. There was no kind of lingering feelings between you and Kwame as far as you're concerned. To be honest, no, there wasn't. Okay. All right. Do you believe and Kwame as far as you're concerned to be honest no there wasn't do you believe that Kwame and Chelsea will make it would you bet on them if your future happiness depended on it mine

yeah like your ability to find like what do you want for yourself like do you want to get married yeah okay so your ability to find a successful marriage and have the relationship of your dreams is depending on whether you bet on chelsea and kwame yeah would you bet on them it's hard to be honest with you they're a lot more alike than people are seeing in a lot of different ways a lot of

the stuff that people see is like cringe shit that Chelsea does Kwame's pretty cringe too and they really do love each other I don't think he hates her I don't think he

hates her I think they actually really care about each other I think it looks weird I think they're they're so different for me it's hard for me to understand them okay

but they're similar to each other and I think that they have a chance what would you put their chances oh my god i'll bet on them honestly i think chelsea's gonna hold on to that thing she won't let him go yeah she'll keep them and i think he really does love her i don't know i don't know how oh god i don't I don't fucking know. God help them. But I think they're going to make it, yeah, somehow.

What would be one thing that you think, just from an outsider who knows them better than we know them, what would be something that you think they could work on to make sure the relationship blossoms? Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't want to be a fly on that wall. So I don't know what they got going. I think maybe they just need to listen to each other more okay i feel like they're both talking and neither of them are

listening sometimes i feel like it's like here's my opinion and someone's like here's mine but it's like it's not coming together sometimes or at least that's what it looked like from an outside perspective interesting okay kwame's got to work on the way he rides bulls have you guys seen that video bull riding in the middle of a bar? I need financial compensation from that Against my will I saw that video against my will I pushed it in front of you, I apologize

What is this video? You've never seen someone ride a bull First of all I'm assuming this is a mechanical bull The guys running the bull are Well, just that, they're guys And they have no interest in seeing men on these bulls. And these mechanical bulls could like whip anyone off in a second.

And so when you see a woman go on, they have it go nice and slow. And when they have a guy go on, they just whip them off in two fucking seconds. He looks like he's doing just fine. It's just, it's almost like he's taking it too seriously. I feel like he was like, this is going to be a thirst trap. Yeah thirst trap yeah he was like i'm so fucking hot let me thrust on this bull but the thing that really gets me about this he's alone in this video someone said not kwame at a bar by himself in seattle on april 8th to ride a mechanical bull alone how do we know he's by himself we have to trust tiktok i guess yeah we gotta what do you expect him to like ride the bull with child she's on the back of it i said i don't know this that that's just some kwame

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Again, rocketmoney.com slash V-I-A-L-L. All right, Micah, let's talk about your friendship picker. Seems a bit off. Yeah. seems a bit off yeah or we just we just not seeing you know because first it started with your friendship with irina that that got messy yeah um downhill quick yeah are you guys still friends yeah we're friends i mean we at first like i took a massive step back so i was like damn maybe everyone's right about this chick like what's going on but i think we both kind of displayed that we you know immaturities and i think if i expect people to believe that i can like grow and grow up it's like i should give

her that same respect that's fair that's fair do you uh zach accused her of being in it for the fame uh last night i don't know what zach was on last night but it was too much for me you thought it was too much she was sitting there trying to apologize okay think it's genuine or not she's sitting there she showed up she's doing her best and it's just like dig after dig after dig and then to say someone's not there for the right reasons like you've plugged your instagram just in this finale or this reunion four different times like who's here for fame like you're the one making all these videos, doing all this stuff.

She's been on ghost mode for weeks. Yeah. That was a bit. That's fair. Sus when he was saying the receipts that I posted on my Instagram. I'm like, okay, so are we dropping your handle or check my story?

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if anyone on the show can really make that accusation without having the finger pointed back at them i mean it's such you all on a tv show you're on a tv show there's other ways to find love like of course it's an experiment and people are here you know maybe it does work maybe there's an opportunity here but you're literally surrounded by cameras you're

you're actively on instagram post show i mean be with yourself. Maybe it's not why you came, but you're making it work. Yeah. So you believe that Irina really sees kind of her behavior and truly sees that as a person that she doesn't want to be. I think she was really hurt by the fact that she hurt people. And I agree with her. I felt the same way. I think there was a lot that was misunderstood

and not seen. Such as? I mean, there was so much that went on around each scene. Sure. For example, the people were really upset that I was laughing at Amber crying. How the hell would I see Amber when she was across the room,

two stairs down behind a wall crying? Like, I can see through a wall now? Like, I mean, the minute Amber stood up, she walked around the corner. I saw she was crying. I was like, oh, my God, holy shit. So not that you're necessarily blaming anyone, but you may be pointing out that they could have the ability to show you laughing as a reaction shot to literally anything. To literally anything. And, you know, in that moment, maybe I was laughing. It wasn't a place of laughing at her. It was nervous. I was like, did Paul break up with her or am I getting dumped? Like, did he change his mind? I was so nervous. Sure. You know, I was like, oh, God, why is he still in there? You know, what's taking so long? And that's because I went into the room with

Kwame and I was like, hey, it's over, you know, and his took so much longer. I was like, oh, my God, what if he changed his mind? You know, I didn't know if Amber was crying or not. She had a whole another connection that she went to the end with. I don't know the status of her relationship. But when I saw that she was crying, I immediately felt selfish. I was like, oh, my God, I'm so worried about myself. If it's going to work out for me and I'm not worried about her feelings. You know, when I saw she was crying, I stood up. up we hugged for a long time I told her how sorry I was and she told me she was happy for me and she did handle it with a lot of grace okay when you say like watching it back you sort of had this moment of wanting to have change and prove that you're capable of that like yeah

what was the experience like or like what were the things that you were most critical of yourself where you were like I can hold myself accountable for this and what were the things that you were most critical of yourself where you were like, I can hold myself accountable for this? And what was the stuff where you were like, I get that everybody thinks it's this way. But living it, I know this is just kind of the way that it shook out. 100%. I think what I can take accountability for is being immature and being selfish. I think I was really worried about my journey. I was worried about finding love for me.

And I wasn't like actively trying to help anyone else in their journey. I was close with my friend, Irina. I was close with the other girls in a very like surface level way. Like we would hang out and have fun. It was good. But I wasn't like, hey, how can I help you? Are you okay? Are you good?

I wasn't doing that necessarily to the majority of them. I think in that way, I was selfish. But one thing I did not do was be mean to anyone or bully anyone or laugh in anyone's face that's something that never happened let's talk about the tap let's bring it up the butt tap it was discussed last night but I feel like it was

we need to really break it down I just can't believe it was shown on the reunion let's look at this okay there's a smile there by the end is by your is that your friend yeah that's that's my friend okay now there's this little thing uh that you may be as a woman you may be aware of um i'm sure you've been to a crowded bar before and as a guy i have never had another man like touch my waist as he's walking through in a

crowded bar just give me a little pat that every guy fucking seems to do as if like he can't like he's trying to like balance himself between the crowd i don't know guys if you're doing that the women know what you're doing you're gently caressing our back you're groping women unnecessarily stop fucking doing it you you're not trying to guide yourself through the fucking crowd that wasn't paul's defense paul's defense when asked about this was basically that he was he basically suggested that he was trying to guide himself or Or it was more of like, oh, sorry, I nudged you on the way out the door. It's like a five-foot doorway. There's like plenty of room.

He didn't nudge her. By the time that he touches her, he's already halfway out the door. The only thing that touched her was a flip, the flick, little flick of his hand. He's already out of the doorway. You see his hand come back and flick back. Yeah. Like, no.

His excuse was just that an excuse well and i also thought it was interesting the way he phrased it too because he he pitched it back to vanessa as the fact that you would say that it's that is absurd he didn't even come right out and say no of course i would never do that i accidentally nudged her on the way out he did do the way he flipped it is i don't know his phrasing seems sketch what do you really think about it micah because i want to know we're just two best friends hanging out two besties no microphone in matching clothing and i want but the the people need the closure we we really want to know because that was some bullshit i think that was bullshit i think he is guilty as fuck damn you guys are kind of hyping me up i was like i don't know because i mean i

know she didn't have any intentions so people being like oh there's an affair there's an affair i don't know if there's an affair but she didn't look like she was upset about it she didn't look pissed she did not look pissed she like grabs her ass and like kisses her hand i'm like what's happening girl chill no i don't honestly i don't think there was bad intentions from her i don't honestly if i'm being real i don't think there was from paul either i think i mean i don't know i'm not a guy i'm not grabbing people's asses on the way out the door but what do you what do you mean by bad intentions i don't think like what trying to get a little like touch on the way out of the bridal sleep i don't know i could not imagine ever in any capacity

do anything remotely close to that to like natalie's friends or any girl i was dating i would like i wouldn't just yeah it's a creepy thing guys do i don't know why they do it it's just like it's as if guys hope that at some point it's like some woman's gonna grab them and be like no don't leave like I'm gonna let you get me she leaves with him bye Micah I just think it's a thing that guys

who are too nervous to just go up and say hi or actually have some game and like just start touching women's hips or but that wasn't even her hip he flipped her he flicked her ass i don't how yeah i don't know you're paul's lawyer you're paul's lawyer okay you describe defend him am i zach sure immediately guilty yeah um because i just don't see how watching that video that is anything other than paul being a little creepy

and disrespectful and as far as your friends like not being upset about it that's a whole i think you might have not known what was going on honestly all my friends are like two sheets to the wind at that point so it's like i don't think anyone knew what was happening i don't know paul's being weird now now that you talk about it i'm starting to get pissed i'm like about to call back for this i think you should be pissed i think you should be pissed yeah i kind of am now honestly i was giving him the benefit of the doubt but like from hearing from a guy perspective i'm like no i'm telling you from a guy's perspective that was bullshit all right i'm about to show up at his hotel room after this um on the topic of friends like i i know there was obviously some criticism about like you and irena in the pods but

after when you know you were introducing Paul to everyone, can you shed a little bit of light on that? Because I think some people, it really rubbed them the wrong way that your friends weren't welcoming to him. So from your perspective, someone who's there, how did it go down? Yeah, watching it, I was rubbed the wrong way. I was like, is this what happened? This is not good.

I'm just saying, I just don't think your friends are good friends to you. Yeah, I hear you. There is so I just don't think your friends are good friends to you. Yeah, I know. I hear you. There is so much that wasn't shown in that night. I mean, my, I had family friends there, too, that weren't, you couldn't even see them. But there was, like, you know, parents and stuff there. And they were asking the hard-hitting questions of Paul, and he just simply was not delivering. I mean, at one point, they were like, what do you love about Micah?

And he was like, mm, mm. And then it was just like spit out some sort of like long roundabout answer and i think that's where the response from shelby came and it was like oh your articulate manner i think she was frustrated that it wasn't like she didn't feel like it was real or was coming for the heart and i think they were just like they're just like what what's happening but i mean also like moving forward on that night we were all good by the end of the night we were all friends me her and paul all hung out like through the course of filming what about her reaction to you crying running down the altar and despite listen i

yeah i i can understand being a friend and just saying, hey, deep down, I just don't think this is the best move for her. But like, I'm crying. You're crying. You're clearly upset. And she is laughing and being like, I'm glad it happened that way. Yeah. I mean, and I'm glad it happened that way. Like, I would have understood, you know, hey, listen, I didn't like how it happened that way.

But I think this is for the best. Right. That would have understood, hey, listen, I didn't like how it happened that way, but I think this is for the best. Right. That would have made sense. But have you had conversations with her before? Yeah. We watched it together, actually. And I was like, whoa.

What the hell? I am heartbroken. I think you should probably be chasing after me, not like, you know, having a good time in the crowd. But when she said that, she explained it to me. And I know that what she explained to me was the truth. And she's saying that's exactly how I want it to happen because I think she knew that I wanted to say yes. I mean, I was going back and forth throughout like the weeks. But that day I was so hurt because I wanted to say yes to him.

And I think she was scared that I was going to say yes. And then he, because no one knew I was going to flip the question on him. That wasn't planned. It wasn't like this big conspiracy, like, oh, like, it's going to be cool for TV. It's like no one knew that was happening. And I think she was so scared that Paul was going to say yes because I did. Or that maybe I was going to say yes and be embarrassed. I think she was literally just happy how it happened.

After watching it back, because when we're watching it, Paul, well, having, I mean, I certainly haven't done Love is Blind, but having been in a somewhat similar atmosphere, you tend to know before you claim to know. The shows, these shows that we've been on love to like, oh, it's like, as if like we're incapable of making decisions,

but everyone's different. Paul genuinely looked conflicted. He looked confused. Yeah. And so I couldn't help but wonder if you wondered if Paul would have given you a different answer had you not made him go first. Because I could have saw a conflicted guy who's really on the fence.

Like you were both looking for that reassurance and that validation. We were, yeah. And instead of getting it from you, he got, I need you to go first. Did you question that decision? And did you kind of regret it at any point, wondering if Paul would have made a different decision had you not made him go first? I think that's a great point. I think there is a chance. Yeah. I think there's a chance that he would have said yes if I said yes.

But that's a real marriage. That's a real marriage on the table. And I don't want to spend the rest of my life being like, this guy even want to marry me. I mean, we already had so many issues in talking validation. You know, he wasn't able to just like sit down and be like, I love you. I want to marry you. Like I never heard that once. I never felt that. And so I'm not going to get married to him and then just be like questioning, like wondering the rest of my life with him if he wanted to marry me or not, or if he fell back into

a corner. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, maybe he would have said yes but for what reason okay i'm still troubled by your friends yeah i'm still stewing on that well you know that they follow each other on instagram right the girl i'm blanking on her name butt tap girl oh yeah and he was like liking her bikini pic yeah there's just like there's some other data points here maybe they're not fucking but like but enjoying each other's attention if I had an ex-fiance I would hope

that all my friends are exing him as well yeah okay well here's devil's advocate a little bit fair enough yeah Paul and I up until I saw the finale were on really good terms okay we had actually met up recently i wouldn't say we were talking about like getting back together but it

was definitely there was a lot it was like very emotional like there was some hand-holding like it was like definitely oh there's still kind of feelings here and you know maybe that's why everyone was still on good terms they knew that there was still like some feelings in my heart we weren't like exes that like hated each other we were some we were kind of trauma bonded in a way like there was still a little bit of lingering friendship even after our breakup but after the wedding did you guys date at all yeah we did you did yeah in like arizona and what what can You did? Yeah. In Arizona? Yeah. Can you explain the whole Arizona, Seattle, back and forth? For sure, yeah. So I have

a condo in Seattle. So I always had the availability to come back and I knew if Paul and I were to get married, I would have made it work and moved back to Seattle. It's not a big deal. My friends are here. My family's here. It was kind of like a snowboard situation. I wanted to enjoy the weather in Arizona. It was never a deal breaker. It made it seem like I was like, move to Arizona, Paul.

Sure. Whatever. I don't care. I didn't even care about that. I wanted to understand what your living situation was. Like logistically. Yeah. It was like, Micah, she's just like bi-coastal. what what is she doing here just like two random states yeah no yeah i mean that was that was kind of it was just getting out of the gloomy seattle i mean that was super depressing i love it's my hometown like i love it but during winter it's kind of hell all right so did you guys start dating right afterwards like what were those conversations that you and paul had following

the end of you know the i don't want to marry you oh also what did you think about the I don't see you as a mother comment oh my god it honestly sent me into oblivion because I've never heard any I've never we've he's never talked to me about that at all so seeing that was so weird and it really hurt but it's it's odd because I think back to like we were talking like during the show and I was like so you want me back yet like kind of Like kind of being funny, like at the beginning, like because I was like down so horrendous. And I was like, you want me back? Like kidding. And he's like, I just really hope that you don't hate me by the end of this.

And I feel like he knew that maybe this was coming or something. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, why? Why would I hate you? Like, I already I know what happened. I was there like we're through it. And then I see that and I'm like damn like why twist the knife you already said no with the altar now you're like oh yeah you'd also suck as a mom and i don't see myself marrying you

now or in 10 years well why did you want to date me afterwards you knew i wanted both those things yeah i honestly when he said the 10 years part i had to like rewind to be like did he just say that because i thought i was like i thought he was trying to say something nice at the time like i thought he was trying to say like nice at the time like I thought he was trying to say like who knows in 10 years like different time like but he I went back and Ramanu was like no he was like not now not ever no that's what I said I was like no at first I was like did I hear that right like hold on like let me turn the volume up but yeah no and that's just why it's confusing to me and I think that's another reason why I was so hurt. It's like because we did try to date like the days following the wedding.

I was so broken. Just like hold up in some hotel in downtown Seattle. Like, where do I go? Like, go back to Arizona. And I did go back to Arizona. But the night before I left, he came and we talked. We had a nice night and it was good to see him again. But we kind of left it open.

Like, we're not going to just like jump back into it. I'm still like her. Like, I think he was still feeling like I don't even know if it's worth it kind of thing too and then we kept talking um like over the phone and stuff and then he said something along the lines of alluding to the fact we're in a relationship and I was like with who like me because I'm not aware of that the way we were talking and how like sporadic and it just I was like this who like me because i'm not aware of that the way we were talking and how like sporadic and it just i was like this is not a relationship to me so i didn't know we were in a relationship and he was like no like i want to try i guess and i was like okay like then let's

actually try i need more and we did try and it was fine i think the fact that i wasn't in seattle anymore was hard he visited me yeah and Yeah. And it just didn't work. Did you guys hook up? Yeah, of course. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how much you guys tried. You know, how much you guys really dated.

Oh, no, we tried. Yeah, we definitely tried. He came and he visited me and he stayed with me. And it was good. Honestly, it was good. How long did that last for? Not that long, honestly. I think he came and visited me on, I think it was like Memorial Day weekend or something. There was some TikTok that went viral not that long honestly i think he came and visited me on i think it was

like memorial day weekend or or something there was some tiktok that went viral saying that i was like walking around the pool of my apartment complex being like i don't even like him like like okay and then the next clip is like me and him making out in the pool it's like just so i don't know we definitely tried and what how did that end i think neither of us were putting in enough effort. I think our hearts weren't in it anymore. I think like either too much had happened or maybe we just weren't meant to be. But who made the final, like who brought up the conversation to say this isn't working?

I did. I just, I was not getting enough. Like I didn't feel chosen or wanted or I didn't feel like he was excited about our future and i felt like i was losing my interest too so it was just it was just time to end and did you guys pretty much kind of cut ties from that point and just waited to yeah he pretty much told me he was like if you ended now like this will never be a thing again. And I was like, okay. Did you guys reconnect before the airing of the season? Yeah, I think it was more of we needed each other to lean on,

and it brought us back together a bit. But obviously now it's game over. Not a word spoken. We're not talking at all. Did you guys talk at all last night off? No. He called me before the reunion, and I was getting my hair done and i was like hello and he wanted to know what you were gonna say that's kind of how i was getting ahead of it yeah yeah i was just like i don't know and i think

we just we both just agreed to be honest and you know just say how we were feeling then we were gonna have to talk about it obviously i'd rather not have to go on TV to confront my ex, but it's what we signed up for. We had to do it. And I think we were just like, let's just talk then. But honestly, none of it made me feel better. Yeah, I didn't feel...

Yeah, leaving the reunion, I was like, okay, why am I more pissed? So yeah, we haven't talked since. Because you found out he slapped your friend's ass. Yeah, I had to see that video again. It was pissing me off. Have you talked to your friend about it? Yeah, she's like, what? In in a million years i could not have ever thought that i was

gonna be a part of this whole scandal she's like god what's happening is there anything like now having spoken to paul last night that you kind of thoughts that are now clear to you or like things that like sentiments you wish you could express to him or like kind of what you would want to leave him with in terms of like just articulating where you're at yeah yeah i mean i guess i'm just confused why we even tried at all after the wedding yeah it just seems like a waste of time i mean if he thought that he could not see himself marry me or he couldn't see me as a mother it's like then what are we doing like what were we doing here what was the point you knew i wanted both those things it's like was it just to hang out until you found someone new like what was the deal it's like it just seems like a

waste of time and obviously we both had to put an effort it was long distance it wasn't just a thing of convenience like oh you're down the street like let's hang out let's hook up it was like we're trying like from a distance and limiting ourselves to possibly finding someone else what's the point were there ever conversations because there's always a lot of accusations from the internet about, you know, and Zach to Irina, doing it for fame. Yeah. What conversations, if any, did you guys have

or did you hear any other cast members talk about, you know, the opportunities that this show can bring them and things like that? I feel like everyone is so afraid of being canceled no one ever talked about anything like everyone's just like so tight-lipped about everything all nervous about what was going to come out i mean i'm shocked at the accusation that zach threw threw at me yesterday being like the girls here have been saying that you were never interested in getting married to paul i'm like who okay stand up like so that zach is this out there throwing grenades huh yeah he's feeling

very lawyer yeah because he was kind of the darling of the season you know he got bell the ball oh yeah he got a very you know i want i don't know if it was a favorable edit or not but he came across quite well i was a fan of him i enjoyed him i mean irena kind of set him up almost for success just because of how harsh she was contrast yeah how harsh she was on him so you but do you feel like zach got almost a little too confident um and came out guns a blazing at the reunion i think he was feeling real good i mean i think irena and i both kind of came out like you know tail between our legs like you know we're scared out guns a-blazing at the reunion? I think he was feeling real good. I mean, I think Irina and I both kind of came out like, you know, tail between our legs. Like, you know, we're scared. Like we, we, we've been getting killed obviously on social media. Like we're, we're humble. We want,

we're owning up to our shit, but we're also trying to like speak our truth. And it's like, I feel like everyone else was just like, oh my God can't wait for the reunion like big day and i feel like that's how it came across to me and honestly it rubbed me the wrong way with all the the nonsense that happened with the whole live and it not being live were were you a little bit relieved when you found out that it wasn't going to end up being totally live or how what was your mindset while that was all going on because like you get all hyped up and we're about to go live and they're like just kidding like what was your emotions during that whole fiasco i don't know i was like can we just get this going like i just wanted i just wanted to be over i didn't care i don't mind it being i was happy it was live because would drag me do whatever it's like i want to see it i want it to come out now i want

to be done with it i want to move on and I also don't want to have to worry about what's actually going to be shown and not shown I mean I wish there was more I could talk to but I mean there's so many different storylines and and drama you know it's like I don't feel like I had like a big floor to talk I mean you have sure you do this is a big

floor I got this floor this is a big floor yeah I got this floor yeah what are there any storylines people love behind the scenes because as you know like we not everything gets aired we all know that's the kind of golden rule of reality tv yeah i mean i just want i wanted to have more time to i feel like how things were portrayed at the beginning and the mean girl edit and stuff i feel like it really put a damper on my storyline. I feel like no one was able to kind of see like my journey with Paul and kind of see it as genuine and see just see those things. And I just wish I could have, you know, owned up to my part in it

and kind of cleared the air there while also trying to explain like things are just not how they look. And while there is things I can learn from it i can grow i can be better i can be less selfish it's like you know things were taken so far out of proportion i feel like it really just kind of changed the vibe of the show it's like the show's just about falling in love not about like the drama and the girls like lounge i don't know i think it was just i just wish there was more time to dive into everything i guess what what's if there was one thing that you wish could have been shown that wasn't I wish that they showed Paul and I actually falling in love like there was nothing like was there a moment that you guys had that you specifically remembered where you're just like why didn't that make it but there's a lot of moments

we had such a great day after we like made our rings like I set up this date for us to like weld our rings I was like this is like some Paul like weld our rings i was like this is like some paul stuff your idea yeah and i was like this is like some paul thing like you know dude's like something that's kind of like his vibe it does sound like a paul kind of tactical i don't even know the guy yeah it sounds like a paul thing yeah no it was cool and it was really fun i was wearing heels and like they were like okay can you get your extensions out of here like you're gonna catch on fire and i was like i don't i don't know i'm just trying to be here for him i don't know um but yeah no it was just great and it was a really lovely day we laughed we we had so much fun together we were always laughing we were so our personalities were so aligned which is

you know interesting because you guys said that a lot yeah and he seems pretty dry but you said that a lot we see the world the same yeah yeah. That was your big go-to line. Who didn't he say that to? The lines were on recycle. I was like, like watching it back. I'm like, wait, he said that to me too.

I was like, ooh, our honeymoon in Positano. I was like, ooh, theirs or ours? Because I feel like the same line is going around to everyone. I don't know. I wish there was more shown

because we were really in love. He is really funny. He seems dry. He's not. I mean, I guess his because we were really in love. He is really funny. He seems dry. He's not. I mean, I guess his humor is a little morbid. It is dry. But I don't know. I wish our personalities were shown more. They don't give you a lot of breath to be funny on those shows. No, there's not. It's like, okay, so are you guys going to share credit cards? I'm like, we're just trying to have a good time and fall for each other.

And I think one thing about Paul and I is we've even talked about it post-show it's we really chose each other because of how we made each other feel we didn't think about the logical part of getting married I think a lot of couples they went into the pause and they're like okay if we get married we want to do this and this and this and here's how it's going to go Paul and I were more focused on enjoying each other and getting to know each other as a person and seeing how our personalities mixed we weren't thinking about like the logistics as much and i think in the end that was the thing that he couldn't get past yeah jackie marshall yeah oh my god and josh yeah messy almost like messy almost like

you're welcome kind of like yeah yeah yeah Kind of like took the spotlight off of you. But what are your thoughts of that whole mess? I think people don't realize how strong the connections are between the people that you don't choose. And I think sometimes they do linger over. I mean, you can see that with Kwame. And I think she had that as well. And I think in the end, her and Marshall just ended up not being a match and her next person was Josh.

And I think on paper, they kind of do have a better vibe together. And I think she was looking for someone more similar to her, not necessarily someone who balanced her out. That was a very nice way of putting it at all. I'm trying. No, we like messy. Yeah, you like messy on here?

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think that their ending was a little chaotic i think they could have given each other a lot more respect but i mean it's it's stressful there's so much going on did you feel a lot of pressure well actually you weren't you weren't dating paul by then but like yeah when you guys gave another shot how did you guys have to be sneaky about it like how does that work with you guys kind of being embargoed for like a year yeah i mean at that point no one knows who you are so it doesn't really matter it's like i don't know why someone was taking you know what i think about that pool party thing that or whatever it was that people were saying that i said like we were just doing

it netflix made us be together or something there was like some tiktok that was like really viral and i mean think of that day and it's like why would i ever say that me and paul were just faking it and then him being visiting me there and us making out netflix isn't there yeah that doesn't make sense it doesn't even make any sense and i feel like that's where a lot of like oh they're not even genuine they never even cared kind of comments came from do you think it was kind of a cop-out that jackie and josh didn't show up for the reunion i don't know why they didn't show up to be honest with you i'm really interested in knowing i heard it was like way above everyone's like pay grades so i don't know i don't know i don't maybe they didn't just sounds to me like they decided not to come really i can't imagine there's a world where netflix wouldn't want them

to come like that was a major storyline i don't know why she wouldn't want to come she was like i'm bringing the tea i'm bringing the receipts i mean she's a big talker yeah okay i think she chickened out yeah and didn't want to get flamed and roasted and and was afraid that uh most people were on marshall's side of things and naturally and she yeah and i thought it was kind of a bunch of crap that like it's like if fine they're not going to show up but why did they have them have a separate interview with vanessa rather than they could have zoomed in yeah it's like it's like it's i mean granted netflix had some technology issues yesterday so i heard that was Shelby's fault. Maybe, yeah. But yeah, I would have loved to have some dialogue

between the three of them. Me too. I was ready for a brawl. I don't know. I was kind of shocked they didn't come. I think that there's a lot that they both wanted to say, I'm sure. So I'm shocked that they didn't.

They seem like people who want to talk. So I don't know. I really don't know what happened. It does seem like a cop-out. Other than irena you still talk to do you talk to anyone from the cast well that's kind of the thing actually i was on good terms with all the cast or at least it felt like it like texting like oh what do you want to the reunion oh this like before the show came out and i feel like when they saw how the media and everyone took things they kind of dropped me like it was hot and i was like

what what is going on here like why you were there in real in real time you saw what happened and we were all fine and dandy and the minute people started turning on me it was like they didn't want anything to do with it because they didn't want to be dragged down because they were like you're really fake so surprised we actually haven't been friends with you this whole time yeah it's like that happens a lot that's not uncommon yeah yeah and so it was kind of a bummer honestly if i do have a little bit of hard feelings regarding that what did you learn about yourself through this whole experience i think i really know what i want in a relationship i think i know that i require a lot of attention and a lot of different things but i want to feel chosen and wanted and And now I know what I want, like looking for a partner. And I also know that I have a lot

of growing to do. I think, I mean, it's hard because it's like, yeah, I'm 26. I'm grown. But at the same time, I'm being compared to all these people that are 10 years older than me. It's like, I even saw things. It's like, oh, comparing Tiffany and Micah's friends. It's like, yeah, they're 10 years older than us. Yeah, we're at the bar and we're kind of messy and we should probably move on from that. But it's not who we are. It's like it's an era. And I think, you know, it's like having this mirror in my face being like, OK, it's time to kind of grow up. I think that's kind of where I'm at now. And I think that's probably the biggest thing I've taken from it. Besides the fact that, you know, I know who I am.

This has forced me so much to look internally and be like, because, you know, you have all these people saying these horrible things about you, like attacking your looks, attacking your character, attacking your family. It makes you like go to bat for yourself internally. It's like I've had to tell myself over and over again, I know who I am. I'm a good person. I'm not these things people are saying about me.

And I feel like it's made me stronger. It's also brought me and my family a lot closer. That's awesome. Micah, any final thoughts before we let you go? Do you regret this whole experience? I don't regret it. I think it's, it was honestly, it's a roller coaster. I'm happy that it's kind of done and dusted. Netflix has started to do other shows like perfect match and things like that could you see yourself entertain an offer to go back on reality tv everyone loves a comeback story redemption arc redemption arc i know my arc didn't finish off i was like crawling out of the grave but i don't think i got all the way there um yeah i don't know

it's tvd on that I'll have to think about it I'm just trying to recover from this chaos at this point but we'll see are you going to talk to your friend about why she follows Paul on Instagram yeah I'm gonna beat her ass no I I literally could give a fuck I don't follow Paul on Instagram so sounds good I think you should talk to your friend about it okay i'll call her after this she looked happy she liked it she's like that felt good it looked it looks sus is she liking his stuff i have no idea i'm gonna have to look into that after this do you trust her unconditionally yeah i do okay well micah it's been an absolute pleasure we really appreciate you taking the time best of luck with everything uh i'm sorry you struggled during this journey, but it sounds like, honestly, like you've learned a

lot. It sounds like you're taking this opportunity to see if there's, you know, areas for growth. And I honestly think that all of our struggles, if we want them to be, can be true blessings for us in the future. And it seems like you're looking to have that be a similar outcome for your experience. I totally agree. Yeah. Thank you. Awesome. Where can the people find you?

Pitch the gram. It's all right. It's okay. What does that even mean? I'm on Instagram. Follow me on TikTok. Watch me embarrass myself. What are you selling?

Like, come on. It's allowed. It's allowed on this show. It's allowed. Everyone does it. Yeah, I know. Find me on instagram yeah hopefully i'll be back back on my bullshit traveling doing my thing instagram where's your what's your handle uh it's my name micah dot lucia okay are you on tiktok i'm on tiktok too trying to figure it out step by step same thing yeah same same thing yeah watch me embarrass myself on tiktok i bet if you do a play-by-play of paul's little ass tap I bet that'll go viral.

Oh my God. I think I might have to. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great idea.

I think we should do that. Hell yeah. All right. Thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget to send in those questions at asknickatthevilefiles.com for all things Ask Nick. All you Vile Files Plus listeners out there, all you update fans out there, we have a new update special for you this Friday.

It is a wild one, especially if you listen to Ask Nick on Monday. It is insane. First caller, I am in a heterosexual relationship, but I'm a lesbian. We have an update. Mind blown. So be sure to check that out. That is tomorrow. Oh, and if you haven't listened to the Marshall

Glaze episode that dropped on Tuesday, be sure to check that out as well. Thanks for listening, guys. Bye.