The Viall Files - E572 Ask Nick - Don’t F*ck With Betty / Chemistry vs. Comfort

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Ask Nick Edition! We’re back to answer your burning questions about the world of dating and relationships. Before getting to our callers, we debate if and when you should remove photos of your exes from social media, and what keeping them, deleting them, or un-archiving them means for a relationship. We then get our latest Breakup Song of the Week submission.  Our first caller was in a situationship that ended after he confessed to cheating on multiple people and then asking how he’s grown since those experiences. He’s recently reached out to her again after ending things, and she isn’t sure how to proceed or if she should get back together with him. Our second caller is in love with her childhood best friend, but he has a girlfriend. She isn’t sure how to confess her feelings to him, and if it will ruin their family dynamic. Our final caller is the only woman at her company and dealing with a too-friendly coworker who is now attempting to see her on the weekends. She isn’t sure how to enforce her boundaries without affecting company culture, and doesn’t want to upset management.  “The only good news is he understands that it’s f*cked up.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store and https://www.onamp.com for Android listeners. To Order Nick’s Book Go To: https://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line!  To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Skylight Frame - Now, as a special Mother’s Day offer, get 10% off, up to $30 off your frame when you go https://www.SkylightFrame.com/FILES Nutrafol - Take the first step to visibly thicker, healthier hair. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners ten dollars off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you go to https://www.Nutrafol.com and enter the promo code VIALL. Wondery - EVEN THE RICH is a podcast from Wondery that tells the jaw-dropping stories about the tumultuous lives of the world’s elite, from the greatest family dynasties to pop culture superstars. Listen to Even The Rich on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Manscaped - Get 20% off + free shipping with the code VIALL at https://www.manscaped.com Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell

what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files ask nick edition i hope y'all had a great weekend uh we know we did. Not sure what we did. It was wild. We had a great week last week. A lot of Love is Blind content, wild, wild stuff. If you haven't listened to it yet, maybe you just caught up on Love is Blind. Go back and check out our conversations with both Marshall and Micah. Wild, wild stuff. The reunion was just a giant mess. We tried to clean up things for y'all. What do we get into? Should we do housekeeping notes first? I don't know. Maybe. Vile Files Plus is rocking and rolling. We have, if you listened to last week's Ask Nick, I know you all did because you're dedicated listeners.

I know you all did because you're dedicated listeners. Our first caller, our friend who is a lesbian dating a man, she wrote in with an update. It is bonkers. And it is available behind our new update special, which dropped last Friday on Vile Files Plus. Again, if you aren't familiar, we continue to do the updates once a month behind Vile Files Classic, as call it and that's going to be this week actually and that's this week amazing stuff uh but we also drop two updates every month behind vile files plus uh again so if you're interested go to vilefiles.com just a couple taps and you will be subscribed it's a seven day free trial we also have an amazing week lined up for you barbaracoran is our guest this Thursday on Going Deeper.

She is a hoot and a half, a fun, fun lady, and we'll be talking about all things business and love and dating, and I'm sure we'll be getting her take on all the craziness that is going out there in the pop culture world, so be sure to tune in for that. Tomorrow's episode, big surprise for you i don't want to spoil it quite yet but it is going to be badass uh anyway what's going on so we got an email shout out to jen who said i would love to hear you guys debate whether or not people in relationships should delete all photos of their exes and i think there's and there's a lot to go here because like there's social media there's camera

roll so there's many dimensions of this discussion i i actually have all my photos with vanessa on my instagram and honestly after nally and i got engaged i was like maybe i could just take those down but then it was just like i don't have the time those are so far i have to scroll so far and i just like don't give a shit and you know it's like i don't nally doesn't give a shit and it's just like i feel like part of it it's just like if i had easy access to them i would definitely probably delete them would you archive sure or whatever i don't care but do you archive? Sure. Whatever. I don't care. Would you archive or delete? I don't think I've ever posted a photo with someone I've dated other than maybe like a prom photo. But I have like 45 pictures on my Instagram.

So it's very easy to get in there and rearrange. I've always operated generally on the like, I don't delete in a sense because it's I do think it's silly out there to kind of reactive delete right you know if you date someone for a couple months you post a couple pictures listen if you have a hard time looking at them and for your mental health as always that takes precedent over anything that happens on social media so we don't give a shit about what they think of your social media activity as long as you're protecting your mental health. Now, aside from that, if you're worried about appearances, but you don't really care, I

just think it's always best to practice indifference, to not do anything. And so I've always kind of operated that way. That's the thing. When Vanessa and I broke up, it's not like I was immediately going to go delete everything. And certainly the months and weeks that followed, by then I just didn't care. And it was like, I didn't have a negative memory per se about the relationship. It just was over. And I had healed and time went on. Now that years have passed and I'm engaged. Yeah. I mean, part of me is just like I

don't need those up but now they're just like so they're just so far buried on the gram that it's just like I don't have the 20 minutes to go and it's like the effort that would take and literally no one's talking you know what I'm saying no one's paying attention to it it's not coming up anywhere and also with you it would be a fucking stupid story maybe like like the most net deletes me i don't know it just seems kind of dumb i think there is a case to be made for like the content of the photo because like i posted like for a one year anniversary pic and it was like kind of like a long exposure little kiss moment and for that i i don't know i wouldn't want that to be close yeah i don't know actually you know for example like uh it's been a topic of debate on my instagram but i like to celebrate my fiance i think she's a beautiful person uh she also models on the side we're both in our physical prime and we're going to we're going

to celebrate that as long as as we can and instagram especially is a visual platform where you literally post pictures of your friends and yourself and your loved ones and if something were to happen in my relationship with natalie where the relationship ended and i moved on and dated i could imagine the next person would want some of those thirst trap type of photos where i'm celebrating yeah yeah like one of the most stunning people ever to exist i'd be like get those the fuck yeah i could see why i could see why i might want to take and even for me like it's like i don't know if i really need these on so yeah i think a case by case basis depending on what the photos are um but generally speaking i just i don't think you

should be that reactive i think it can be a green flag if you're like starting to date someone and they actually like still have them up because i feel like it's more of a fuck boy move to take them all down you're trying to hide something yeah and i'm like more transparent you're allowing me to ask questions i did however witness a reverse uno move this past weekend reverse you know it was a reverse fucking uno i've never seen it before and it was pick four yeah okay so uh my friend was in town she's been recently seeing this guy i think they've been together they've been like seeing each other going on dates for like two months maybe uh-huh when they originally started dating or like when they matched on hinge we of course found him on instagram because girls do that yeah and i remember finding photos of his ex and sending them to her and i was like oh looks like he just got out of a

relationship whatever there was this one in particular at the end of last year that we flagged. They continued going on dates. They followed each other. Suddenly, that photo was gone. And we both said, hmm, interesting. Okay, he got rid of that. Maybe he's just like- Deleted it, archived.

We don't know. It's gone. It was off the ground. And we only knew it because I had sent her a screenshot of it. And I, at the time, had flagged. You documented it, yeah. But it went missing.

You made a paper trail. We did. Over the weekend, sent her a screenshot of it and i at the time documented it yeah but it went missing you made a paper trail we did over the weekend i went back to this man's page not only was that post back what made you go back where is it like trouble in paradise where no her parents were asking photos and i was asking for photos i was trying to show because i had my phone she didn't literally the the post was back up and there was another post that was also back up that we had never seen before. So unarchived? Unarchived. Not one, but two of the X.

Oh, boy. Not great. Like, what does it mean? I don't know. In one way, maybe he's so comfortable with her that he's like, well, now it won't be an issue. I will throw these back up. I don't think that's it.

No? Because it goes back to your point of how you're like i could do it but it what's the fucking point there's no effort effort and exactly and energy and i doubt that effort and thought and energy was based off the fact that like oh the girl i'm seeing now definitely just like she's totally chill and cool about this like it would be a weird thought to have. I think it's worth the question. It's, it's an early,

how do you bring it up without being an absolute psycho? Because I feel like that's her hesitation. No, I so agree. I would have a really, it's like the chill girl narrative that like, as much as you're like, I reject this,

this is stupid. It's so deeply ingrained. It's all how you approach this. We've had this conversation in the office. It is. And for anyone listening, we just be chill. What? what what there's no chill for saying hi i have a photographic memory because if you were to send a photo if you're right i think

this is an in-person conversation right or maybe a facetime conversation if they don't get to see each other often but if you were to send the photo and kind of be like, what's this? The fuck? What's this? Yeah, WTF. Explain yourself. You know, like, or some passive aggressive, like. I just think it's funny how. Yeah, exactly. Then that's going to be perceived as crazy and defensive.

Or it's just like, or on person, you're just like, hey, can I just ask you like a question? I'm sure it's like, you know, but I just noticed it. I was checking out your Instagram and I just like, I was looking at your most recent posts. Like, that's not crazy. I just was caught off guard, you know? Like, what made you post these? I don't think that's crazy.

And you just calmly ask. You're just like, I'm just really interested. I think it's all in the delivery. You know, When you're frustrated and early in dating, people like to say, I don't know, I have a scenario. Let's say someone's been busy and they just haven't made time for you. You can reach out to them and say, well, you just never make time for me. Or I'm really, or I'm really frustrated that like, you lead with your frustration. You know, if you lead with your frustration,

I'm just really frustrated that it's just like, I never get to see you and it doesn't feel like you ever make time for me. Or you could say, hey, listen, can we talk, babe? It's just like, you know, I really enjoy spending time with you and I love our quality time. And I just, it would be, you know,

is it possible that we could work together to try to find a way to spend more time together those are two different approaches to the same topic and one is going to be received is aggressive and attacking and putting them on the spot and the other one is you know i really like seeing you and you're fun to hang around with is it is is there something we can do together no one's at fault no one's being blamed blamed. And so for all the people out there worried about sounding crazy or not being the chill girl, be chill. But communicate what you want and do it in a very calm way that doesn't put the other person on the attack. And so we need to start speaking up for ourselves and asking these questions. And you can do it without sounding crazy. It's in the delivery. I mean, relationships are full of possibilities to trigger one another,

especially early on. And we need to be able to hear out our partners and do the things, especially when it's low-hanging fruit. Especially when it's like, oh, easy. Delete. I don't care. Archive. Does that bother you? Babe, I'm indifferent about it. But sure, I'm happy to do that because I like you and I want you to know that your feelings are a priority to me. And we need to demonstrate to our partners early on that we're willing to make them a priority

and we need to figure out whether the people we're dating are willing to do these little things to make us feel good. Otherwise, you're just dating someone, as we've often said, who just likes having a girlfriend or a boyfriend but not willing to do any boyfriend or girlfriend things when it's required of them to meet their partner's expectations and if they're like that break up with them and listen to our breakup playlist because we have a breakup song of the week the person who wrote this said or not who wrote the song it was not taylor swift who submitted this breakup song of the week but

the caller who wrote in said this song prompted a major breakthrough. It would be great if Taylor Swift just nominated one of her songs. I would love that. You know, but the thing about Taylor is I feel like she would nominate a different artist. I don't think she should. Presidents vote for themselves. Yeah. I'd been in love before, but nothing like the passion and intensity I felt with this ex.

When it ended, I thought at first that I knew the type of love I was looking for. The real love was the high I'd felt with this partner. As time went on, especially in hearing the song, I came to terms with the fact that a relationship, that relationship had not been healthy. The highs and lows were what caused such strong feelings, not a fulfilling connection. So without further ado, the song is Daylight by Taylor Swift in brackets. I know, I know. The live Paris version. The lyrics that struck me so intensely were, I used to believe love would be burning red, but it's golden like daylight. It helped me realize that what I thought I knew about love was nothing compared to what it could really be.

Being out of my previous relationship left me open to find love that was completely different from what I've known thus far. One where good wasn't constantly being balanced out by bad. Three-something years later, I'm now with someone who I'm incredibly compatible with and who I've always felt safe with. The passion is there, but what I appreciate most is the comfort and the compatibility. I hope this song can help others recognize that the best is yet to come, and they have no idea just how wonderful it will be to find the love that is meant for them isn't that lovely i'm getting i'm crying in the club thank you for sending this in please send yours in as well all right anything else before we get to our callers tune in for a better date than never this thursday oh yeah better date than

never this thursday wild wild stuff the friendships that are budding in group chat is really something else. It's become a highlight of our week. I hope it's become a highlight of yours. If it's a Thursday night, a lot of you, I'm sure, might be feeling lonely, might be feeling just like, you know, just it's a community of people just talking about sex and dating. All right. Let's get to our callers. Oh, rate, subscribe, review, tell your friends.

We always love it when you post our show on your social media and tag us. We'll try to share it as much as possible. You guys are the lifeblood of the show. We really appreciate it. Also, don't forget to send in those questions at asknickatthevilefiles.com. Mediation, texting office hours.

Sweating the wedding. Sweating a wedding, fighting with friends, family struggles, things like that infidelity, the list goes on you're anonymous we love to hear your stories the people love to hear your stories and we love sharing our two cents

and if you have another topic like this Instagram photo one that you want us to debate, send it in put debate topic in the subject line pop up in the comments on YouTube by the way alright, thanks, love you callers, bye Send it in. Put debate topic in the subject line. Oh, yeah. Pop off in the comments on YouTube, by the way. All right. Thanks. All right. Love you. All right.

Callers, bye. Question time with Nick. Let's ask Nick your sexy questions. How's it going? Good. I'm Mia. I'm 25 and a situation shift. I was an ended after we talked about his past infidelity and now things have gotten really

messy. Okay. All right. So first of all, I guess my question is one, why were you in a situation? Um, I don't even know, honestly, I don't even know what term to use to describe the whole thing because we met on hinge in December and we connected pretty immediately. Okay. Super good chemistry. And he did did like we were both clear about the intention that we wanted to date okay and so a couple months um into dating or just like regularly seeing each other at least like twice a week um like he would start to kind of convey that he wanted to be exclusive and that he wanted a relationship and he was really like convincing about that but i needed more information about him because i had this like intuitive feeling and as i'll get into in a bit he was

disclosing some information to me about his past that i needed to further delve into before i committed to him in any capacity gotcha so it wasn't really a situationship as much as it was you guys were dating yeah because you know the you know, the semantics, I guess. Well, I don't know. But like to me, situationships are just that. Like it's a situation because someone wants to be in a relationship and the other one doesn't and then nothing really changes. And that continues on without any change rather than in this situation.

It sounds like you guys were both dating with intention and he might have been ready, but you weren't quite yet because you had some more questions and you wanted to get to know him, but you were willing to have those conversations, but your intentions of getting to a place that he was, was equal. And to me, that's not a situationship because both of your intentions were, you guys were on the same page there. You just were, you were just going at different speeds and that's not necessarily a situationship. I know some people might say, well, you And that's not necessarily a situationship. I know some people might say, well, I'm in a situationship.

I'm dating some guy and he says he's not ready yet. And that's what, you know, but then that ready yet is like there's no end date. There's no intention of the person who's not ready yet to change it, right? You had that intention which is well let's have conversations about your past dating history so anyway yeah it was like kind of like on the course to dating but we didn't quite reach that point but yeah that's not so much a note for you but like for other people who you know because people who are in situationships love to figure out ways to tell themselves it's not a situationship um and so the fact that you

both had similar intentions and and did things about it to me suggests that it was just two people continuing to date uh anyway so then you brought up his past dating history how did you bring that up walk me through that conversation okay so um i actually didn't bring it up because i had i had no idea that it was a thing until so we're dating for a couple months um he's five years older than me so he's 30 so for his 30th birthday i was like let's go for a dinner we're at this really nice dinner having a great conversation and like very casually he just like looks at me. He was like, he just brought up the fact that he has cheated multiple times, multiple times and multiple times. And like we were in the middle of a nice dinner. And so I wasn't prepared to be to kind of enter that topic of conversation.

So I was caught off guard and he kind of just like it was super casual how he was talking about it. He just said that he just I didn't even I honestly was just sitting there listening to him kind of ramble and he told me that he was kind of infatuated with his exes and like didn't really love them and then another time he was on molly and like this all these instances happened a few years back like he's probably 25 like around my age when it happened but I was just sitting there kind of stumped because I'm like we're in the middle of a birthday dinner we were having a totally unrelated conversation he kind of just like like word vomited onto me and I just didn't have time to process or ask the

questions that I wanted so a week later we were just like I kind of let it sit and I was feeling really icky about it and just like I felt this pressure from him to commit to him like being exclusive or starting to date. And I just wasn't ready. Cause I didn't understand like how he's grown since he's done that. And I thought that was a fair question to ask. So we called and I said, I was honest and honestly, like, I don't, I don't think I was judgmental in how I asked the question, but I just really simply stated like, Hey, I'll be honest with you. You brought that up at you know, the birthday dinner that we had. And I really enjoyed the dinner and like your transparency, I appreciate it. But I want to better understand you as a

person and what work you've done on yourself, so that I know that I can trust you. And over the phone, he was like, yeah, totally fair, whatever, whatever. He was, how about we have lunch on, not lunch, sorry. He's like, how about we have dinner on Tuesday, a couple of days later. And like the next couple of days, this guy is buttering me up for dinner. He's like texting me constantly, calling me constantly. And then text me that day. And he's like, I can't wait to see you for dinner and talk about us. Like, I'm so excited.

I've been thinking about us, whatever, whatever. It's 30 minutes before our reservation. And he texts me. He's like, can I get something off my chest? And I'm so excited I've been thinking about us whatever whatever it's 30 minutes before our reservation and he texts me he's like can I get something off my chest and I'm like yeah of course and he texts me this long text about how he's like thought more about it and my questions aren't unfair but he wants someone to just understand him and not have to ask any questions and so it was yeah it was was, it really caught me off guard. I know it was a little bit crazy. And then he called me and he sounded like he was, he couldn't put together a coherent sentence. He was completely flustered and he was like, actually I'm confused. And like, I don't know what I haven't made up my mind yet is what he

kept saying. And it just, I was really calm over the phone and then I just cut it short and I was like hey like I just I I'm gonna go um like best of luck with everything whatever text me that night and he was like I'm sorry I hope you can forgive me and that we can be in each other's lives at some point and then just a week ago today actually he texted me again saying that I was everything I needed to be and more and that he appreciates me. And I don't, I'm just like, this is already like fucked with my head so much. I don't understand if I did something wrong in my question. No,

you didn't. I don't know what his intentions are and reaching out to me. I'm like, do I answer? Do I not? I'm like, I don't know. All this is,

I mean, it sounds like up into this point, you liked him. I really liked him. We had a really good, really liked him. Natural connection a really good natural connection. It felt like an old friend. Yeah, so definitely some red flags here,

major red flags with his response. But, you know, red flags to me are not necessarily, like, non-negotiables. Clearly, how he responded to me shows that he hasn't really dealt with this, right? Which is why he is defensive, because he doesn't know how to answer your question. He told you he was upfront about his cheating. That's a green flag. He wants to be upfront with you. He knows it's wrong, not to give him too much credit, but there's a lot of people in his shoes who would not bring that up, who would just lie about that, especially if they plan on doing in the future. So from a character standpoint, it sounds like he has a desire to have good character

and be a better partner to the people he wasn't a good partner in the past. So that's a green flag. But what he hasn't done, it sounds like, is my guess is, you know, because there's a pattern of infidelity on his part, and we've talked a lot about this in past episodes, I doubt very much that he knows why he's cheated. I mean, he can bring up Molly and drugs and things like that, but that's not why he cheated, you know? And he can make guesses about, well, I was obsessed with her, and we didn't really connect. That doesn't explain why he cheated. That might explain why those two weren't compatible, but compatibility has nothing to do with infidelity. You know, he could have just opted to break up with her. And yeah, Molly doesn't make you cheat. Molly makes you horny, but like you can be horny and still say, I got a girlfriend. Guys are horny all the time.

He doesn't know the answer, which is why he comes up with these things and they sound reasonable. And for people who are looking to make excuses for him because they like him, it might come across as like, yeah, well, you did Molly, you were drunk or whatever. You're sorry. You know what's wrong. I can trust you. But it sounds like you're a little bit more emotionally mature than that. You recognize that. Well, I don't know, Molly. I don't like that. Doesn't seem like that as I have more questions. And he probably had a lot of anxiety and then handle his anxiety very poorly by saying, I can't do this. And then calm down, realized after he canceled the date was like, she kind of handled that really

well actually and now i feel like an asshole and i'm embarrassed and i don't know what to do which is why he's kind of like this whole like he just kind of keeps going because you know he probably feels bad this is all to say like if if this all of this gave you the ick you would be justified to just be like you know what you're not there yet if you like him you know i don't think it's the end of the world to give him a another chance and and have that dinner and see if he's more willing to hear some constructive feedback that while um might such a sound a bit judgmental because well he knows he fucked up and he knows that people will judge him for this and he doesn't have the answer yet but it's still a fair question as you've acknowledged and the truth is until he can really my guess is he he hasn't gone to therapy to find out why he's made these choices.

He doesn't have an answer. Yeah, he said to me, he's said that he references a lot of self-work that I have not seen evidence of. He's told me that he's in therapy and that, I don't know, he's been single for a while and has been working on himself. But I'm feeling really discouraged by how like abruptly he communicated with me and how volatile his emotions are. Like, I just don't know what to do with this. And I honestly haven't stopped thinking about this now for weeks. Like this ended exactly a month ago. Why?

I texted me a week ago and I'm just. Well, why are why haven't you stopped thinking about it i was just gonna say i haven't stopped thinking about it because i haven't connected with someone that organically like it's it's such a confusing thing for me because our like humor like we literally i feel like a kid when i'm around him like i haven't really met someone that i've instantly clicked with, just like, like I did with him. But at the same time, there's just these like indicators of like emotional immaturity.

But then he has these like glimpses of self-reflection. Like, well, he's going to like reach out and apologize to me over text. When I get, I got my hopes up and then I feel like I'm, I'm scared to keep like letting him in and keep getting disappointed, but it's really hard to let go.

And you feel like you have this like instant electric thing with someone. Um, I don't know. And I was, I guess it's my, it's on me for kind of imagining the potential before I saw evidence that he could get there. But I honestly just have never connected with someone like I did with him.

And so it's just kind of like, it's stuck with me for sure. Okay. Which is understandable. And I think, you know, I could sit here and be like oh well you know it's just chemistry you can find chemistry with anyone but it is far it's hard to

find people you connect with and i wouldn't give the chemistry you feel with him too much credit but like i think you can give it some credit and i think it you know this is you're kind of you're trying to thread the needle here and that's okay right like not the end of the world for you to invest a month or two into this guy to see if there's potential there. You've seen some green flags, you've seen some red flags. And so I guess, again, what I'm saying is if, if you're willing, you just have a conversation and it starts with something like, listen, I'm not looking for perfect. I'm just looking for people who are always willing to like talk through things and show a willingness to learn from their mistakes hold themselves accountable do the work and and that's all

i really want and tell them i i really it threw me off it really i was really frustrated with how you handled things but i do really like you i haven haven't, you know, give him all the compliments about why you haven't just left and why you like him but I would ask him like, oh, he says he's in therapy. Have you talked to your therapist about your infidelity to understand why you made these choices

because it wasn't Molly. You know, he didn't sit down in therapy and be like, yeah, I've cheated on a bunch of women. I took Molly and their therapist was like, because it wasn't molly you know he didn't sit down in therapy and be like yeah i've been i've cheated on a bunch of women i took molly and and their therapist was like oh well there's your aunt you know that didn't happen and if they did he should fire his therapist but but people can go to therapy and avoid bringing up things as a former cat as a catholic whatever confessions whatever i don't know what you call them but like you know we have you confessionals you you you

confess your sins well when i was a kid i'd'd be like, yeah, I was mean to my sister and I was this, but I didn't really like, yeah, I was just like messing around with girls. I did not bring that shit up. You know what I'm saying? I just conveniently left it out and just hoped that when he said, well, I absolve you for all your sins, that he included all the things I didn't want to bring up, you know know and so he could easily be in therapy and choose and cherry picking what he wants to bring up and what he doesn't bring up and so again fair question to say have you worked with it with your therapy i think it's amazing you're in therapy you know but like have you worked on this topic have you understood why you make these choices you know because if you if if you don't understand it then

that's okay but like it means you probably should because i do think it would make me feel safer to continue things with you if you could better articulate you know why in those moments that you chose not to handle it a different way i have a question question though. And this is probably me protecting my ego a little bit, but I don't know what to make of the intention behind the text that he sent me. Maybe I sound naive and it's obvious that he's trying to reconnect. Can I read it to you? It's quite short. He was like, hey, and then used my nickname. Just want to apologize for how it fell apart. It's on me. You were everything you needed to be and more. I appreciate you a lot. Just he was like hey and then used my nickname just want to apologize for how it fell apart it's on me you were everything you needed to be and more i appreciate you a lot just wanted to

let you know that so he's not like explicitly asking to get back together with me i'm not really sure what the purpose is because he already apologized like the night that we broke up so you don't even know if he's necessarily asking you out i can't i don't know if it is obvious from that message because for me it's not no i know it's not i don't know what he wants i feel like if i had to guess i would think he's kind of testing the waters where he was like i definitely want to apologize that's safe and then like i would guess but not be sure from that message that he's probably also being like and if this starts a conversation like you know he's clearly trying to like re-engage on some level especially if he's already apologized to you before so i would assume it's a little bit more on the like seeing if it's an option thing then not still like still

annoying just fucking own just be like hey i fucked up would you be willing to have that dinner and and finish this conversation so yeah it's not clear why i don't know what to do yeah well do the thing that you want him to do just be direct and you've spent enough time wondering about this guy i know you had chemistry with him but as you don't need me to tell you like there's blend plenty of other things that scream, this isn't your guy, you know? And while I know,

listen, as I say all the time, it's supposed to be hard to find people that you have this type of chemistry with because otherwise it wouldn't feel special. But just because he has chemistry, you have chemistry with him. Doesn't mean that he's capable of being the partner that you want and deserve. And he might be in the future, but until he does the work and learns how to better regulate his emotions and deal with some of these tough questions, and you didn't even ask him in

that tough of a way, he's not ready to be the partner that you want him to be. So I would just, I'd reach out to him and be like, hey, I appreciate you saying that. But to be honest with you, it's been a real bummer because I really like you, you know, don't even say liked. I really like you. I haven't had this much type of, I haven't had this level of chemistry with anyone, but it's been really, it was, it's been really disappointing to see how things were handled once we had that conversation. I would love to finish this conversation if you think you're capable of having it and then see what he says. In terms of...

Because I'm also trying to be self-reflective in my process of dating. I'm trying to see if there's an opportunity for me to do better. of dating like i'm trying to see if there's an opportunity for me to do better and i'm do you think that like did i ask that question about cheating and how he's grown was that too early like he did state that he felt judged like is that that's fair game right like i think if you brought up he's shooting on multiple people like what are you supposed to do like table that for like a conversation three months down the road and then emotionally invest in him and get to know him more and have lots of sex with him and develop stronger feelings only to then check in and realizing he hasn't done shit about it?

No. He brought it up. Yeah. And I'm glad he did because people who cheat are fucking liabilities and red flags and people cheat for all sorts of different reasons and while it's never an excuse there are reasons and some of those reasons can be worked through and some of those people who do cheat can like can right or wrong by recognizing you know that they've been basically dealing with past trauma in a very shitty and inefficient way,

you know, but until they have those conversations with the appropriate people, usually a therapist, and work through some of those, you know, decisions that they've made and really dig deep about their past and understand why they make the choices they do, and then learn the tools that when they feel triggered in these situations that they go about handling it in a different way. And the people that they want to date in the future are going to want that security because they are a flight risk, so to speak.

And that's just something he's going to have to deal with. And he shouldn't just, as he said, that's just unfair. And I hope he knows this after letting some time pass, but it's ridiculous for him to have said to you, I just want someone to accept me for who I am. It's just like, no. I don't accept that you have a history of cheating without any assurances that you have done the work to ensure that it won't happen in the future i do not accept that i hope that you don't accept that either and i kind of like after i've been reflecting myself i feel like maybe my read on

this is wrong but i'm wondering if the reason he was kind of pushing commitment on me is because he wanted to almost like fast, like just fast forward past the part where we get to know each other on like a deeper level and like prove to each other what work we've done on ourselves. Like, I just feel like all it just was, it's kind of sus, like to try and make someone commit to you without having those like substantial conversations. I don't know if that's the red flag, but. No, it is. Yeah. like i'm torn i'm like you know it's like someone who has a kid or like maybe they have herpes or something and they're like i need to like i need to have this conversation yeah you want that person to fall in love with you first before you drop the bomb so like you sure it's understandable but not doesn't make it right the only good news is for him is that he recognizes that it's fucked up and wrong. And he recognizes that it would be something for his future partner to accept,

but he has to go a step further and do the work. Because if he had done the work, it would have been, hey, I want to be upfront with something. I have a history of cheating. It's embarrassing for me. I'm ashamed of it. I hate this part about me. And I would understand if that's something that you're not comfortable pursuing, but I just want you to know that I've worked really hard on this issue. And I've been in therapy and I've tackled this specific issue. And again, I'm not making an excuse for myself because there's no excuse for cheating, but I have recognized that some of my decisions were a result of X, Y, or Z. And instead of doing A, B, and C,

when I felt triggered or when I felt insecure or I needed validation, I went about in this very toxic way. And I've been working really hard with my therapist to not do that. So if you're willing to move forward with me in our relationship, I just want you to know that like, I'm continuing to do the work. I'm still in therapy. And while I'm not saying I want to like get in a relation,

you know, I want to start doing couples therapy with you because I don't want to get too crazy, but like therapy is a big part of my life. And I think it's just always a positive thing. I want to start doing couples therapy with you because I don't want to get too crazy. But therapy is a big part of my life. And I think it's just always a positive thing, yada, yada, yada. He could have done that. And he didn't. And if someone doesn't do that, you have every reason to be worried.

Yeah. I also wonder if he... The reason I was asking about why he's grown as well as it was so hard because like with all that good chemistry that we had i feel like he was constantly bringing up other women and i wonder if some people like i don't know i feel like he was trying to signal to me multiple times even by bringing up the cheating at that dinner that we had that he's able to get women even when he's in relationships like there's he was almost like narrating his identity to me all the time about how give me an example like like one of the first times that we hung out actually he told me that one of his exes like made a viral tiktok about him and he like had to like

threaten her legally or something to get it taken down because it was inaccurate or whatever and then he told me that a bunch of girls that he's hooked up with have a group chat where they talk about it. Like he was constantly like flagging to me that he gets female attention. It was like he had two personalities and that's kind of maybe why I'm struggling is it's like he was so kind and funny

and authentic in all these ways. And then on the other hand, he had this side of him where he'd constantly flaunt like female attention and I'm wondering if he was thinking that when he told me that he was a cheater that I would either sit there and like comfort him or I would sit there and be like impressed that he can get girls whenever he wants like I'm just that's why I tried to understand it a bit better and then I just left that whole phone call with him when he ended things feeling as if i had judged him but it was just i've honestly yeah it's just been so it's been a roller coaster yeah well i mean the more you tell me the more i'm like maybe this is

not your guy but he just hasn't yeah like i think he means well but he it just sounds like a guy who hasn't really done the work needs some validation And even when he's in a seemingly happy relationship that every once in a while, he needs to scratch that itch to make sure he still can, and he still has it. And he needs to be validated to know that he can still attract other women. And it doesn't sound like that desire has gone away. And so he hasn't really worked through that. It sounds like given all that, I, yeah,

it's, it's a, it's a, it's a lot to invest in with someone that all you have is a little bit of chemistry with. Yeah, very true. If I don't like intend on giving him another chance,

would you suggest that I just leave the text alone and just not answer yeah and the only reason you should respond to this guy is because you want to finish this conversation have that dinner and re-engage and and yeah and re-engage and say and say hey listen like i'm sorry if i made you feel judged don't apologize for it's like weird you know because it's don't give him the real apology because you have nothing to apologize for but you are sorry he felt judged but it doesn't have you have you discussed this topic in therapy you know if he says yes be like well what answers do you have as to why you need that type of validation when you're in a committed relationship

and that answer shouldn't trigger him. If he gets defensive and be like, well, I don't need the validation. He's definitely not done the work. Yeah. I did feel like he kind of freaked out and like, and did things without having thought through what he was doing carefully

enough because he was just having this like knee jerk, like defensive reaction, like you were saying. So yeah. Cause another way to interpret another way of interpreting that text isn't him testing it could be both could be true but another way of interpreting the text is him saying yeah i haven't done the work and i i know if we have this conversation you're not going to want to date me because you you handled the conversation a way that he wasn't expecting more mature and thoughtful and he probably saw where this was going and he

doesn't have the answers that you're going to need to trust to invest in him more so he's just kind of like bowing out because deep down he knows i think most. I think the best response is probably no response, especially if you don't want to pursue things with him. I say this with a huge grain of salt, and this is where you're going to have to really be honest with yourself because I'm worried that you won't be able to disconnect because you could send him a message saying, I appreciate the note.

I just want to say that I really did enjoy my time with you. And you could say, if I'm being honest, I haven't felt that type of chemistry with someone in a really long time. So it was a real bummer to see things fizzle the way they did. I hope that you're able to work through these things and get some of these answers so that in the future you can give someone the type of security that you weren't able to give me. Because it sounds like deep down you have a desire to be a good person and you just need to do some work and that's okay. and just maybe like you just need to do some work and that's okay but but i'm worried that you will send that and then he will be like hey great and then you will wait around for him to do the work you know i don't want you to wait around for him because like truthfully like it's pretty clear this guy hasn't done the work and he needs to do the work. And you got to ask yourself, are you really willing to invest in someone you barely know, have no history with? And what you

do know is that he definitely, he's a cheater who hasn't really done the work regarding his cheating. And all you do have is some chemistry. And when you lay it out like that it seems like not the best proposition for you i've been struggling because i haven't it's been a week since you texted me and i haven't responded so i'm wondering like if i if i just say my piece with the self-discipline to not wait around for him like you said and not get my hopes up maybe that'll also give me some closure that i can move on with my life and kind of let this rest because I feel like in the whole breakup I haven't I honestly barely got a word in all it really was was him word vomiting to me over the phone that he's confused and feels judged

and wants this and that and it's just been his roller coaster so I'm thinking that might be a good idea just to send a text and like with good intentions but not with the intention to wait around for him. people for who they are if who they are are people who have cheated and they can't demonstrate the work they've done to give me the insurance that they won't do it to me. The feeling you're trying to give him is, I'm worth it to do the work so that I can be a good partner in the future. Because clearly this is a guy who's lacking some self-confidence or has some insecurity or needs some toxic validation and he's whether he's cheating or going on dates and talking about past dates or past girl like that's just weird it's like a weird weird thing to bring up and it's riddled with red flags yeah 100 yeah thank you

all right well good luck so much yeah let us know what you end up doing if there's a response there but most it sounds like we've we've come come to understand that maybe this isn't your guy. Probably not. Probably not. And then to help you get over it, stop saying things like, I've never felt this way. You had some chemistry, and it was good. And chemistry is supposed to be hard to find. And just because it shows up at your door doesn't mean that they're the one.

As you've experienced, chemistry is one part of many things that come with finding someone that you're willing to invest in to potentially spend the rest of your life with. And you're only 25. And this is a demonstration that you can find people that you have chemistry with. And hopefully in the future, while they won't be perfect and they'll have their baggage as well, that hopefully that conversation about how they've dealt with their baggage goes a lot differently. Thank you, guys. All right. Take care.

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girlfriend and i don't know what to do okay i don't think you're in love okay that's just me also he has a girlfriend you know i just think i think you like him relatively new one yeah yeah tell me more tell me more how long have you known this person? Since third grade. And I had a crush on him. And I probably stopped having a crush on him around 18 years old when I realized that it's probably never going to happen. I'll never be his type. His type just doesn't look like me. And he also got with my cousin. And at that point, I was just kind of like, whatever, we'll just be friends. And I thought that was the case that I had moved on from him. But then on his birthday, a couple weeks ago, I was out with him and his friends and I was making

out with his roommate slash best friend and he was pissed. I'm just confused. Why was he pissed? He was just like, so you and call him Max. Really? So am I going to see you in the morning? Really? Him, him out of all the people in the world, really him. And what'd you say? I said, why do you care? That also was not our first time making out in the past. What did he say? He was wasted and he wasn't really super coherent but it was just like did you have this conversation when he was sober no okay it was all a drunken night he didn't seem to care when he was sober not really i mean i didn't see him that night when he was sober but he was wasted but yeah he basically was his girlfriend was there and was giving me all the attention and not her and was very visibly bothered when I was kissing his friend.

Gotcha. So what do you want to do about this? I don't know. I so I personally. I don't know, because I have some trauma surrounding like guy girl friendships like my most recent ex left me for his so-called best friend and I don't want to be that girl in his relationship also I don't want to shoot my shot and get shut down and ruin a friendship and our family's relationship so i'm wondering like do i hold this in forever or do i just kind of like shoot my shot when they break up or if they break up i mean what family friends

like how i mean i think mom and dad are gonna be fine i don't think they're gonna care yeah do you i mean like we travel a lot. The families travel together. Yeah. And we've had a million opportunities to hook up and have never. So basically- How old are you again? 24. And he's your age, I'm guessing? Yeah.

And you're still taking family trips a lot together? This is probably our last one. So it might not even be a factor anymore. There you go. I mean, I don't know. I just don't think this guy- I've heard you hear me say this before. It's a little different. There you go. I mean, I don't know. I just don't think this guy is like, you're, I've heard you heard me say this before.

I, you know, it's a little different. You have some family history. It's like, kind of like your cousin. You want to fuck. Oh,

I will only say that because she's talking about it. Like, you know, growing up, you probably called his parents aunt and uncle. No, I didn't. You didn't.

Okay. I just say there's clearly some closeness that you're protective of. Yeah. I don't know. I just think you should tell him he's not your friend he's been there for me throughout like a lot a lot of things in my life what do you like about him he is super caring and funny and i don't feel like he ever judges me when there's a lot to judge me for in like my past and we just have like such chemistry and i don't know i think potentially maybe chemistry or comfort because if you have i mean chemistry i feel like should be felt mutually that's a good point i don't know chemistry is friends i guess but for sure comfort i'm just in most of these cases we might expect he has a girl how

long he's been dating this girl for a couple months okay and also the first time he told me about her he just kind of talked shit about her and was like yeah she's like not super my type she's kind of boring I don't know if she's the one so I'm like wondering do I just wait for them to break up or I don't or do I hold this in well i mean you tell like you've been holding in for this long now i mean like how true how are how much are you bursting at the seams you know like are you crying every night because you can't be with them you know no no i think more than okay so here's what i would do in the meantime practically speaking because i'm kind of giving you a hard time.

I think you should, the drunk conversation that started, I think you should have sober. And I think you should say, hey, listen, the other day when I was kissing so-and-so, and I think you should, I want you to bring it up to him because I want him to visualize you kissing the friend. Okay. to him because I want him to visualize you kissing the friend okay so when I was making out with Matt like you got really upset with me and you were really drunk so I just wanted to follow up with you like why did you give me such a hard time for making out with Matt if he says like well I just don't trust Matt.

Why are you friends with people that would you say that? If he says like, oh, I just know what type of guy Matt is, say, would you say this to any girl he made out with? Because if he thinks Matt such a bad guy, then he should warn every girl.

Ask him sober about why it bothered him and push back with some of you know his answers that don't make sense if they don't make sense you have a right to ask follow-up questions you know if it sounds a bit hypocritical you have a right to answer ask follow-up questions and ask more questions rather than make accusations like so instead of saying that's hypocritical just think of another question to ask that could that would kind of you know like i said like well matt's like this it's like well that sounds like well did you ask other you would you warn other women and then depending on what he says hey well well you're my but i i don't know i'm friends with you it's just like well as my

friend i i just think it's a little weird that you're getting mad at me and then you can decide for yourself at what point that you want to be honest about your feelings but i would just start there that's a good point okay and maybe he was right about his friend because he's already ghosted me well yeah but he might have told you told him to not get it back down to back down yeah and what regardless of what it's about his reaction regardless of what the friend did yeah like it's just about the fact that he gave you a hard time okay does he have any idea that you might have feelings for him probably i knew i know he knew in the past that i did but i think he believes that those are all gone because i've said that

so i think yeah i have my answer now. I just think you just need to be really mature about this. And regardless of the fact that he has a girlfriend, I don't think you should be like, I'm in love with you and wish, you know, like, yeah, no, you sit them down and you say, Hey, why did you ask me this question? Right. And then depending on the conversation goes, I think you could just be honest. You just say, Hey, listen, I'm going to be really honest with you. And you might already know this, or this might not come to you as a surprise, but like,

I care about you. And honestly, I care about you more than a friend. And I don't want to make this weird. You have a girlfriend right now, but like, it's just upsetting to me to hear those types of comments, knowing that if I had my way, we would actually give this a shot. I'm not asking for that right now because you have a girlfriend and I'm not saying I can't handle being friends, but I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make comments about who I make out with, who I date, if you don't want to give this a shot. And just kind of be very matter of fact and very mature about it. And I don't know how he'll feel about, I don't know how he feels about you, but it always, it always comes across very attractive when people are very calm about when they're talking about their feelings and they are very kind of, and they already come

into that conversation with kind of, they're not asking a lot of questions about it. They're just stating facts about their feelings. I like you. Okay. This is this. I don't appreciate you doing it. If you want to reconsider our relationship, I'm open to that conversation. And as far as not wanting to be in the same version, listen, I don't know how your ex handled it or how long it went on for. And if you were really insecure about her for a long time, and then he finally validated that insecurity. Yeah, so that's a slightly different situation. Ultimately, I'm glad you're not with him, and I'm glad he's with her, because it sounds

like that's how it could have gone, or should have gone. Yeah, and my friend said he hated him the entire time, and I was like, well, interesting that you're telling me this. Whatever. Now that you, yeah. This is a little different. And I do think if you do this it should affect the friendship you know i do think it's better to just be honest like you can

be honest about your feelings without like pouring your heart out or i love you don't say i'm don't say i think i'm in love with you you don't know that you Just say, I think I have feelings for you that are stronger than just friends. And while you may not feel the same way about me and you might not be interested in exploring that, I would, but knowing that I don't want to hear those type of remarks. And if you really want to be respectful to his now girlfriend, regardless of what you think about her, then be very mindful about not being flirtatious and not being alone with him and not doing lunches and don't do boyfriend and girlfriend,

don't do the things that pissed you off that the other girl did to you. You can still be his friend and there for him and you can still hang out in group settings, but you could be mindful of your behavior around him. and if he chooses that he wants to pursue something with you over her that's his choice that makes a lot of sense it's actually really great advice i i knew you're the right person to go to with this internal dilemma i was facing so thank you yeah so yeah just don't be shady with your behavior is basically how you don't do the same thing

that was done to you, but that you have the right to be honest about your feelings towards him, even if he has a girlfriend. And it's good because it creates a level of accountability with like, if his girlfriend ever has a conversation with him about like the friendship he has with you, like then he like, he has information, you know, that he can like either choose to be honest about or not be honest about but like you're definitely I think putting it in a position where like people have the information they need to like make informed choices that are respectful to everyone so I think like it will also help absolve like any guilt you might feel about like pursuing this

friendship that you know you kind of have like maybe some other motives with and the more like normal and calm and straightforward you are with this conversation i feel like it'll just be that much better for your guys's relationship moving forward even if you do take family trips like you kind of get to set the stage of told you how i felt that's it i'm good i don't i won't be weird this is fine okay because i feel so weird i don't even know how to like talk to him anymore after like i feel like i've had this realization that the feelings are still there. I don't want to do the same thing to her that was done to you, then you need to adjust your behavior towards a man that you have feelings for who has a girlfriend. So you can still be a friend, but that friendship is drastically changed in how you hang out and how you handle yourself around him and the flirting

or the chemistry. You have to be the responsible one to back that off. And honestly, if there's ever a chance that you guys come together, you backing off is only going to help you. Make yourself unavailable and don't give him the things that he would want in a relationship that you're willing to give in a relationship. Just be friendly when you need to. Okay. And then do I try to see if I can pursue something with the friend?

Well, I mean, if you want to, I don't think you should not on his account. That's for sure. But I also think you shouldn't do it because you're like, want to kind of poke the bear a little bit and be like, Oh,

look at him getting a little upset and possessive over me. Like shouldn't be petty. But also he, as you said, he hasn't even texted you back. So we don't have a lot of data to go off of and the data we have isn't great so basically he asked me if i was like coming out this weekend and i said if there's a reason to basically being like if you want to ask me to do something and no response and when was that well he doesn't want

to be responsible for entertaining you all weekend yeah that was like three days ago so you shouldn't go it's probably just a couple hours you shouldn't go. It wouldn't have finished. Probably just a couple hours. You shouldn't go then. Yeah. Okay. If he's not putting in the... That text was, are you going to be here

so that at some point we can meet up and we can fool around? But like he doesn't want to entertain you. He doesn't want to be responsible for you and he doesn't want to be

the reason that you show up. Yeah. So I would... So you know, I deserve a lot better than that. Yes, you do. All right. Well, let us know how you handle it. Thank you. I will. Thank you. This is so cool. show up yeah so i would so you know i deserve a lot better than that yes you do all right well let us know how you handle it thank you i will thank you this is so cool i really appreciate

you guys talking to me awesome well thanks for calling in okay bye thank you even the rich the podcast that talks about the rich and famous and their wild and wacky stories. That's right, Even the Rich is a podcast from Wondery that tells the jaw-dropping stories about the tumultuous lives of the world's elite, from the greatest family dynasties to pop culture superstars. Having unimaginable wealth unlocks a world of which most of us can only dream,

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at manscaped.com. That's 20% off plus free shipping when you use code V-I-A-L-L at manscaped.com. Don't just get your money back this year. Get your swagger back too with Manscaped. How's it going? Hi, my name is Betty. I'm 29 and I have a coworker that has a crush on me and it's starting to make me feel super uncomfortable. Okay.

Okay. Tell us a little bit about this coworker and ways in which they're making you feel uncomfortable or how they're making you feel uncomfortable. Okay. So I work in a old boys club type of a truck shop and it's just very old school, male dominated. I'm the only woman in the lunchroom on breaks and stuff. And yeah, so it can be kind of a hard environment already. But this guy isn't actually like a lot of the other guys in the shop. He's not like your typical man's man. He is a little bit more considerate. He isn't someone that I like originally felt I had to have my guard up against.

He is a nice guy. Like that's his personality. That is just like the essence of who he is. Always asking you how you're doing. If your day is going well, remembers the things you say to him. He'll follow up with like polite questions. And yeah, he just he has this crazy puppy dog crush on me. And it seemed kind of harmless at first. But the attention that he's paying me just going out of his way to talk to me, sitting next to me every single lunch break and just like smiling at me, trying to start conversations with me on the shop floor. It's drawing a lot of attention

from the other guys and that's not like looking very good for me. And then also I've been doing a lot of outdoor recreation on the weekends with another coworker. And this guy has kind of somehow gained an invitation every weekend. So not only am I seeing him five days a week, I am seeing him on the weekends as well. Okay. Well, I'm sorry you have to deal with that. How close are you with the other coworkers? I keep it as surface level as possible just to keep that professional boundary. I'm a lot closer with the one coworker that I've been doing a lot of hikes with.

He and I, we hang out on Saturdays, so it's a little bit different that way. But with all the other guys, it's just like friendly banter in the lunchroom. It's pretty witty. It's pretty feisty. Just like good natured. Yeah. Do you think this one friend you go on hikes with, does he know anything about this situation? No.

I think he's pretty clueless, to be honest. Do you think you're close enough or comfortable enough to let him know to get his two cents and to say, hey, like, you know, because it's a unique dynamic. You're the only woman working there. It's, you know, a good old boys club type of thing. It's, you know, and I'm sure that you've really gone out of your way to, you know, fit in, but at the same, you know, and you don't want to be treated differently, you know, and I'm sure there's extra pressure that comes with that. So it'd be nice for you to have like an ally, you know, someone looking out for you. It would be, I just, I feel like, so I feel like, and I know it's never, it's not my fault,

but like every time I have an uncomfortable situation with a male coworker at work, and it's happened like quite a few times now, I always feel really embarrassed because, you know, like it's simply because I am a woman, but like, it's not happening to the other guys. So I feel like any conflicts that I have of this nature just makes me like more of a burden to like management and all of that. Even if that's not really like, just to be like thinking about myself, but I just feel like extremely embarrassed. I've dealt with this a couple of times before. And coming forward with this information like even to like just another co-worker like first i'm just kind of nervous that maybe word would get out that this is a thing um i feel like people are already talking about it anyways um because i've just i've tried a few strategies to like avoid confrontation with this guy about

what are they talking about i mean because like my understanding is he just has a crush on you and it's so obvious but you haven't given him any reason to think that you have similar feelings yeah i mean there's been some like salacious rumors spread about me like when i first started working in the shop um they were obviously like disproven over time. And like my conduct and my character kind of showed through and people no longer believe those rumors. But it's one of those things where it's like, if it was my word against like a man, it would be like the man's word that was like respected or taken more seriously,

potentially not by management, but by the other guys in the shop. And also, I feel like there's a couple of guys that just like to spread like rumor and gossip for fun. So I think it's become a lot bigger than, oh, look, that guy's like following her around. I think like some people have like, like kind of just wondered whether or not there was something actually going on, which there definitely is not. But there's been a like a lot of speculation. Have you stood up to have you said anything to this guy at all? I did. And I thought that I had made myself clear. So in the beginning, when I was first

dealing with this and being very frustrated with it, I called my brother and I asked him what he thought I should do. And he wanted be like, obviously kind and considerate to this guy and not like shame him, but still like clear enough to try and get him to back off. And I thought what we came up with was okay. What did you say? I mean, what did you say to him the first time that you, when you thought you made it clear? Um, this was the first time when I, I got my brother's advice. Okay. Basically like what I said to him was, I mentioned that people were making comments that made me uncomfortable. I also made it kind of,

I talked about how like seeing him six days a week is just, it's too much. I don't know. I was trying to be like gentle about it, but I was like, you know, six days a week is too much to be seeing someone from work. And then I also just said, like, I wanted to protect my reputation at work. And so I was going to do what I needed to do. And this conversation was sparked because I just stopped eating lunch in the lunchroom.

And funny enough, that was enough to kind of like cause a little scene where everyone's like oh where's Betty like why isn't she here and um because I'm kind of the life of the party in the lunchroom and so unfortunately I kind of caused a scene without trying to I was actually trying to like avoid being awkward I mean and then like does does your work have like an hr no and then what's your relationship with management um it's it's pretty good it's gotten a lot better um unfortunately like i've had to come forward to them in the past twice with um like pretty serious sexual harassment concerns. And I felt like the first time I was really well received and respected and it was dealt with. And then the second time, unfortunately, so I went to the previous manager that I'd gone to the first time and I was explaining to him what

was going on. And another manager walked in at that time. And then he joined in on the conversation and he kind of turned it really sour. And he was like, well, are you sure they meant what they said? Did that really happen like that? Kind of all those horrible questions where it's like, I didn't even want to come forward. I probably waited too long because I was so embarrassed

and I didn't want to seem like a burden. And then to have him like question me like that, it ended up being a confrontation. And we've since kind of had a follow-up and it's been like, well, I, I straight up just came out and told them that they dealt with that really poorly and that no woman should ever be like, talk to you like that. And I was more aggressive than i'm used to being but i was very upset and um we've kind of worked it out but i still feel kind of like hesitant now to like come forward again especially for something where it's like i don't feel like threatened or afraid i just feel extremely uncomfortable and so it's like i don't know how i would ever bring that up with them yeah um it's a

tough situation i also think first and foremost you said earlier in the call like i don't want to be a problem to management you're not a problem to management he's a problem to management so even if it's just like little things like that in your brain to remember like you did nothing to cause this you're not in any way encouraging that and if management's gonna roll their eyes and be like wow what a headache he's responsible for their headache you're not responsible for it it's just hard when like and i totally agree with that and if i ever heard any other woman talking i'd be like it's not you it's them but it's it's hard when it's like always them plus me. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I'm like the common denominator in all of these over and over again. And so it's like, oh, like I'm I do my best to deal with it myself.

You know, like I even like sacrifice like community and friendships in the lunchroom to try and like just distance myself from the situation. And it's like, but I'm still like the person in this like reoccurring issue. and it's like but i'm still like the the person in this like reoccurring issue it's just like so hard when you're the only woman because i'm like i worked as the only woman at a company in new york and it was awful because it was like i was in the event space and i was dealing with all these guys who would like come for like cigar and whiskey events and it was a very masculine environment and i would end up getting like manhandled as like the person at the door and then i'd end up like crying in a bathroom because i was like they have no idea how this kind of stuff affects me but then it's like who am I supposed to bring it to my male boss who has no idea that like this is actually happening

it's an impossible situation sometimes and it's so like taxing and like this like hearing this like it makes me so angry because like it is there is not some easy solution that like you're refusing to like commit to or do like you are like working your fucking ass off not only at your job to prove that you deserve to be there but like handling all of these delicate social dynamics that somehow all fall on you and like that is exhausting and that is so much work and I think one thing like apart from kind of handling this specific guy is like making sure that you have people in your life who you're talking to about this because like you need to make sure that like you're continuing to validate the reality that you live in like these people live in a different

fucking reality they don't get it they probably never will they could probably understand more that's not to say this is hopeless but like these people will not see things the way you see them because that involves admitting that like they are the problem and they are perpetrators of like bad fucking behavior. So just like making sure for your own sanity so that way you don't start to like question yourself or your judgment or your standards for how people treat you, like making sure you have trusted people who will like listen and be like, yeah, that is fucking crazy. You're like, oh, that does suck. I feel like is an important step. And I wonder, do you think the phrasing of like hey it feels like like with the with the guy who you've already had the conversation with like

hey like sometimes it feels like you pay a lot of attention to me in a way that you don't pay attention to other people and to be honest that like people who've paid attention to me in that way in the past like have had ulterior motives. And I'm sure you mean like, you know, you can kind of like, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong here, but like being like maybe given benefit of the doubt and by being like, you know, and I'm sure maybe you mean like nothing by it, but like in the past, like that's how people who have like had feelings for me, treat me. And it made me feel really weird and uncomfortable. And so I'd be so grateful. Like if you could try and avoid that, like, i know we had a conversation about this before it feels like that didn't really resonate what if we just stopped and i and again this is we're just

brainstorming here and i know it might be easier said than done but what if we just stop trying to be nice you work in a male culture i'm guessing guessing these guys are pretty direct. They don't feel the need to tiptoe around their issues. It's kind of like a fight fire with fire. I mean, you are working in this industry. It sounds like you love it. And I'm glad that you get to do something you love. But I guess it's like, I don't want you to change who you are but at this point you know there's been this pattern here of feeling like being taking advantage of being the only woman there and maybe you just need

to start how am I trying to say this like it's like you almost have to like demand respect for them by almost like publicly standing up for yourself almost like making a scene you know I don't mean like, don't go crazy. But just even if other people are around, when you say, hey, listen, I've asked you before,

you make me uncomfortable by, name it. Don't try to give it another name that might be less offensive to him or less upsetting in some way. You're following me around. You're showing up uninvited. It really makes me uncomfortable. I've asked you to stop. Please stop. And I think you need to stop.

I think you should start documenting this via email yourself. If you don't feel comfortable going to management again, at least document it to yourself so you have a paper trail of of this and if you like listen you're legally protected if you go to management and they fire you for this like and that's why this should all be in writing but i kind of i wonder if maybe just changing the to start being a little bit more direct and a little bit more not giving a shit about whether you hurt their feelings or not. The same way they would fucking handle a situation. You kind of fight fire with fire a little bit. I just like the idea of like possibly like shaming someone, especially publicly.

Like that just seems devastating to me. Like, especially since like this guy seems like he seems a little bit more sensitive he seems pretty clueless honestly because i feel like i've been really forward but also like i just know like for me like i've felt like that kind of public humiliation in this shop like when i first started so maybe i mean maybe don't publicly do it or shame him but i'm just saying i just just be more direct and instead of trying to craft the perfect message that is both received but not hurtful and yada yada you know because when you do that you know we we hear what we want to hear right and so when we go to people and say things like when we try to come up with a softer message

so that their feelings aren't hurt, you're giving them a bunch of windows and doors to interpret your message the way they want to. And so I don't think you should shame him for the sake of shaming him or humiliate him for the sake of shaming him or humiliate him for the sake of humiliating him i just think you should be direct and say exactly what you want so that it's you have the confidence to know that he heard you clearly and so that if he doesn't respect what you ask then you feel more comfortable escalating it because you don't have to be there's no there's no gray area of what you asked. Because he could be like, well, I don't know. She just said like, six days is too much.

And I guess I just kind of disagreed and I didn't think it was that big of a deal because I wanted to go hiking too, or whatever it is. As opposed to like, hey, you may not mean this because I think you're a really nice guy, but it's making me uncomfortable how much attention you give me and how much you're following me around.

And I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop. I think it feels awful, but I feel like I could say it because I feel like when you're saying like, oh, it leaves room for interpretation, I think that's correct because I felt like I was clear with him, but maybe I tried to deliver it in the kindest way. And yeah, he could walk away from that and be like, well, she said this, but maybe like, because she also said this, it was something else. But you're right. I think I think I need to be like a little bit more. I don't know. Just like, colder maybe um yeah it's hard because

like i'm getting promoted into like more of a management role myself and so it's like i want people to feel like safe to come and talk to me as well but at the same time like this is just ridiculous and yeah and they and they can still feel safe because this is not about you you're you're open you you you're all about communication but like you know how to set a boundary and when people don't respect your boundaries no there are consequences you know you see how these men act in your office and they don't put up with shit and they're willing to stand you know just give them that same energy and And in a weird way, like, you know,

regardless of the fact that you're a woman working in a male, you know, kind of culture, like just in general, men want to, they like to test each other.

They like to make sure that they want to see if you can fight back and they want to see if you can stand up for yourself to men. And the fact that you're working in this culture, they probably have the same expectation of you. Whether that's fair or not, probably not, and they probably shouldn't do that. But I think it would just go a long way

for you to make it clear, and not necessarily shaming this guy to do it, but just in general, be willing to just say, no, stop that's fucked up i don't want to deal with that fucking cut it out if you show a pattern of that i i feel like they'll get the the point that betty betty don't fuck with betty because like she's not willing she's not here for this shit don't fuck with her yeah and also like with this guy i know like you were saying how like in terms of like staying true to yourself and feeling authentic like kindness is really important to you and like if this guy like this guy can't read a room to save his life, like it's a pretty simple word. It's fucking no. And he still can't read it, which is like

a bummer. If he had any clue of what was going on, that he was like following someone around, making them feel uncomfortable, that like this person dreaded coming to work or dreaded when he like walked over to them at work or like had a sinking feeling when he showed up on a hike, like I would be fucking mortified. I bet he would be embarrassed. And so like, this is already a situation like just because he's not privy to the embarrassment doesn't mean it's not there. And it is like, honestly, like a huge investment in future kindness to say like, I'm going to save his dignity and give him the information he needs to like behave in a way that's like more dignified. Because yeah, either he would be embarrassed

if he actually is the nice guy that you think he might be or he's just pretending to be a nice guy because there's plenty of nice guys at the end of the day or there's fucking creeps. I think it's just one of those things as unfair as it might be, just setting a precedent with all these guys that you don't deal with bullshit you

know and you know because like just hearing your like you have such a like your voice it's very demure and you have such a you come across as this very sweet kind person and they're definitely taking advantage of that and i think they just need to see a little bit of different energy from you and like don't fuck with betty because you know she doesn't deal with this shit no i think that's i think that's right and like when it comes to like specifically work things that i'm overseeing i'm a lot more like forceful and um i guess like even harsh like sometimes i'll get these looks like oh i can't believe um she just went there she just said that but maybe I am also a lot gentler and polite than I realize um and you're right like I want respect and I want them to kind of

get the point and yeah oh I just why am I so afraid of like hurting people's feelings like I've been working in this like male-dominated industry for my entire working career. And it's so weird for me to still be like, oh, but I don't want to hurt someone's feelings. And I don't want to outcast them by accident. Because you have empathy and you care and you know what it's like to feel like an outsider. And that's why. And that's a great quality to have and don't change it about you. But when it comes to work, you need to kind of protect yourself and you need to demonstrate your ability to stand up for yourself and demand these people's respect because they're not going to give it to you unless you show them that you can enforce it.

respect because they're not going to give it to you unless you show them that you can enforce it. And that's just... Listen, every job comes with its pros and cons. And you've chosen this job that sounds like you like, and these are some cons and you have to accept the cons and then you have to do something about it and then control the narrative. That's true. And so I am reliably single is how I like to tell my friends. You can count on me to always be single. Like basically, how do I still like kind of give off this unavailable vibe? If that makes sense, like, you know, I might be single, but I'm not available. Like, how do I kind of go that at work? Because it seems to be a reoccurring problem for me.

I think any time that they make things more than friendly, if they're ever telling you something that is something they wouldn't tell your male coworkers, just shut it down. You don't have to laugh at jokes you don't think are funny or that are at your expense or that have to do with like sexual natured stuff you don't have to just like i feel like we're so ingrained to to not alter the mood and especially being the only woman in in the industry and in your company you don't want to like you know be the problem or be the one where they have to like change who they are but inherently they're being different with you than they are with each other so i think it's those moments where you don't make it a huge deal and you're not going to stay ruminating on it for days and not talk to them, but you can definitely just remind

them, yeah, no, let's not go there. Or just brush it off in a way where it's like, yeah, no, I'm not engaging. Also, don't forget that men love to give each other shit. I think it's okay for you to call out their behavior and i men do that to each other all the time and so you know maybe they're asking you like oh what do you like to do on the weekends and you could say like literally anything but think about you guys you know like like anytime you have an opportunity to joke the joke is you guys are disgusting or you know are you like what's your type the

opposite of all you guys you know like and you know you could say in a joking manner but like guys love to fuck with each other guys love to tease each other and they love to talk shit to each other i'm sure you see it all the time and i think if you can join in that in your own way, all while making it very clear that the idea of you and any of them makes you want to throw up in your mouth, I don't think that's always necessary. I don't think you're going to hurt their feelings. I think they might laugh. I don't know these guys, but I'm just saying guy culture.

They fuck with each other all the time and they, they, they, they can be pretty harsh on each other and guys don't really mind that. It's kind of, it's camaraderie in some ways. So the fact that you're so worried about hurting their feelings, I think indirectly is getting you in trouble because they're almost taking that as you can see you, you caring about their feelings. And I think you should kind of give the energy that you don't give a fuck about their feelings. If it has nothing to do with work. That's fair.

I think that's really good advice. And it's something I didn't really realize about myself is like, yeah, maybe I'm just coming across as like too concerned about everyone else, you know, and not in a way that's like kind of overruling my life, but in a way that's maybe just inviting follow-up conversations and more awkward situations without me knowing it. Yeah. Tease them a little bit. And just in terms of

setting the precedent that you're not available to them, I think it's okay to just make that fucking clear with some pretty direct jokes. Yes think that that's yeah i've been too scared of causing a scene and being the dramatic woman or the bitch or whatever right and i think you're right like i think just maybe i need to just let go of that i think you should be kind of a bitch yeah and i think that's okay you're right if the worst thing is that the guys at work think you're kind of a bitch but you're kind of cool and you're a cool hang but like i wouldn't want a dater that's the energy you want like that's true try to turn them off you know be the woman that they would never want to date but they respect the hell out of you you know and they would definitely ask for

your advice on how to get some shit done at work that needs to get done. You don't need them to like you. You just want them to respect you. Yeah. And that's more important to me, ultimately, like building my career and just like having that respect and like working my way up in the company. Like that's something I'm excited about. It's something that I want. And I don't want this like weird, awkward work drama and some puppy dog crush to get

in the way of like my future and how I'm viewed by management as well. Exactly. So I think this will go a long way. I also don't hate the idea, like with this one particular nice guy, you pull him aside, you have this direct conversation with him. It goes fine. I don't hate the idea of you still emailing yourself and then emailing management saying, hey, just want to keep you guys up to speed. Here's the situation. I handled it, but I want to let you guys know that I've asked him very directly to leave me alone. There's no follow-up there, but I just want to make you guys aware and document that I did ask

him to stop doing this, but there's no next steps that I can see. But because it gives them the confidence that you're handling it, you're dealing with it, you're professional about it. I don't know what you're... You know management more than I do or the relationship, but I think just kind of covering your bases, that might be a great way to close that loop, so to speak.

Yeah. I think that's a good idea. close that loop, so to speak. Yeah. I think that's a good idea. You're not accusing him of anything. You're just documenting it in case he doesn't get the point. Because then if you are direct and he doesn't listen, then it is a problem, and management is already one step ahead, and you've made it very clear, And they can keep an eye on him. And if he takes your point, if he takes your note, then there's nothing to worry about. Then they'll keep an eye on him and they'll realize, well, I haven't seen him around Betty in a while.

Like, clearly he got the point. Well, don't fuck with Betty. That's the message of this call. Don't fuck with Betty. We need merch that says don't fuck with Betty. I'm going to make a whole new merch line. Don't fuck with Betty. That's the message of this call. Don't fuck with Betty. We need merch that says, don't fuck with Betty. I'm going to make a whole new merch line. Don't fuck with Betty. That's awesome.

You're giving him the opportunity to be a gentleman and be awesome. And he should thank you for that. Stop worrying about how he's going to look or how he's going to feel or what management might think of him. You're setting him up for success. It is up to him to be successful. You're right. I feel like I It is up to him to be successful. You're right.

I feel like I've given him a lot of chances already. So maybe we're just done with that. Yeah. And you're not putting a target on his back. If he respects your boundary, there's nothing for management to do. And it also proves that you're not just going to come running and crying and screaming after the first thing. You're going to try and solve problems yourself.'s true it could be like a good step towards i just again i'm so embarrassed to even have them know that it's like happening again you know like

it's i think you're right like it is happening why are you embarrassed you're an attractive person you're the one gender at a workplace it's like prison rules you know like it's like when there's just one of something it's just like whoever you're just like ah you know like there's nothing to be embarrassed about people find you attractive and you know got some there's just there's nothing for you to be embarrassed about it's like and my work is fucking annoying very excellent yeah exactly your work speaks for itself yeah so. So yeah, hopefully that's like enough. And even if it's awkward again for a little bit after I inform management, like hopefully, you know, time passes and my work is still up to the same quality and hopefully they just realize

that's like more important. I would just keep telling yourself you have nothing to be embarrassed about like it's it's not as awkward as it feels and i'm not the bad guy and i'm tired of being super patient and super accommodating these guys you know they wouldn't have this patience for me i don't owe them anything that they don't owe me right don't fuck with me i'll even say that to them i'll walk into the lunchroom one day and i'll just be like don't fuck with me i'm tired of your shit you're all the fucking disgusting who would date you yeah all right well good luck uh would love an update as things progress for sure yeah all right take care once i slam my hand on the table and yes create a scene there we go love that all right awesome thanks so much for calling thank you so much all right bye-bye

thanks for listening guys don't forget vile files plus with an amazing update is now available a special update episode of vile files plus again dropped an update to the caller from last monday uh the uh wonderful lesbian woman who is dating a man has a bonkers update. One that you, I don't think you saw coming, but who knows. Make sure to send in your questions and stories to asknickatthevilefiles.com. Com? Damn. Can we keep it in?

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