The Viall Files - E573 LIB Lawsuit, VPR, and Nepo Babies with Johnny Lowe

Episode Date: April 25, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Love is Blind and Vanderpump Edition! Today we are joined by actor and writer Johnny Lowe to get the behind-the-scenes scoop on his infamous Watch What Happens Live appearance with Tom Schwartz. We hear how he attempted to explain Scandoval to his father, how he feels about being a nepo baby, and what he thinks of the Love is Blind lawsuit. We then have a “Sweating the Wedding'' caller who is renewing her vows after leaving a religious cult - and she isn’t sure if she should invite family members who are still members.  “People confuse empathy and accountability.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/ To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: ShipStation - Get a 60-day free trial at https://www.shipstation.com/viall Thanks to ShipStation for sponsoring the show!  CastleFlexx - Stretching is the big thing right now and new studies pointing out that it's more effective than brisk walking! Get your CastleFlexx for 10% off with code: VIALL10 Wondery’s Even The Rich - Even The Rich is a podcast from Wondery that tells the jaw-dropping stories about the tumultuous lives of the world’s elite, from the greatest family dynasties to pop culture superstars. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. BetterHelp - This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://www.betterhelp.com/VIALL and get on your way to being your best self. Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @johnnylowe @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell

what's going on everybody welcome back to another exciting episode of the vile files freestyle edition is that what we're yep all. All right. Great. Amazing. I'm Nick, your host, joined by the household, Ali, Amanda, and Derek. And our special guest today, we're very excited to have him, the one, the only, only, only, only? Well, that sounded weird. Johnny Lowe. I got nervous introducing you. How are you doing, buddy? I'm doing so good right now. I have this very cute dog on my lap. The office dog, Kiki? Yes. Kiki is making me feel very at home right now i have this very cute dog on my office dog kiki yes kiki is um making me feel very at home right now we are very excited to have you um you are doing great things right now

with your new hit show on netflix unstable of which you wrote and are acting in co-created co-created yeah it's pretty cool executive produced i got my whole i pull out like a scroll of titles i'm like very exciting also vanderpump super fan and was present on watch what happens live while tom schwartz went just tom schwartz let's be real that is my biggest accomplishment for sure you think so it was cool but that's cool but like being there being there for bravo history was it was wild i really oh that i mean that i immediately dm'd you and i was just like please come on the show you'd be surprised how many i got so many random dms from an assortment of people but some of them like very like large scale public figures who were tuning in i was oh yeah damn i knew this shit was history i knew it it was it was your big moment well we have a ton to get into

we have uh we got love is blind cast suing love is blind netflix and and the production company obviously we're going to get into like some vanderp stuff, some housekeeping notes before we get into it all. We got Barbara Corcoran. This Thursday on Going Deeper, that's a wacky episode. We've already talked to Barbara. She's a hoot and a half. You ever met Barbara Corcoran?

I have not, but I'm familiar. It's a good time. Wacky? If you ever get the chance. If you ever get the chance, you should definitely meet Barbara. Really? Yeah.

We should have had our mics muted because it was just constant. We were dying my favorite line of the episode was was it like fuck that bitch oh she said now you have to go get married so you can get revenge on that bitch that was her giving relationship advice i need to meet her oh it was really great. Anyway, so she's with us on Thursday. We also have an update episode for you dropping Friday. Yeah, on Vile Files Classic. So for all you update people who didn't want to join Vile Files Plus, there you go.

It's free. For all the other people, we had that. If you listen to Ask Nick last Monday, our wonderful caller who believes that she is a lesbian but is dating a man is like living with and has kids with a man she has an update spoiler she was proposed to find out what happened after she was proposed to it's

wild so go check it out on vile files plus go to vile files dot com to sign up it's it's free to sign up so if you don't want to pay to listen the episode you don't have to you just just you get seven days. You get seven days to try it out. My favorite thing about that update was that she said

once she realized she was getting proposed to, the first thing she thought about was how Nick would respond. Yeah, it's the power. And I was like, Nick, you were part of her proposal and you weren't even there. Well, she didn't propose.

And these people, they don't use their real names, do they? No, they use aliases. Okay. But it wouldn't be that hard to piece it together if you knew them and listened to your show. There are some people who write in, they'll write in and they'll want to vent and maybe hope that I might read it and just email them. But yeah, a lot of their friends also listen to the show.

So they're like, I'd love to come on but my friends are familiar with the story or they know my voice but got it other than that yeah

it's anonymous damn that being said if you have a story to tell email us at asknickatthevilefiles.com it is anonymous if your friends

listen to the show too we can't we're not gonna change your voice but other than that you're you're fine clearly her her boyfriend doesn't listen because yeah she's she's been very giving with her story very generous definitely and it's wild so check it out all right let's uh let's let's start to get into it we got we have a a lawsuit for yes for love is blind so the lawsuit

actually was started a lot of these news articles came out in July of 2022, but basically a season two contestant, Jeremy Hartwell, sued the team behind the Netflix reality TV show by claiming that producers deprived the cast of food, water, and sleep, and plied them with alcohol. And I think it got a little bit more buzz because recently Danielle, who got married on the show, talked about it as well.

Um, and she said, this says Danielle, who got married to Nick Thompson during season two of the show, said that she underwent a psychological screening before filming. However, she confessed that she felt like she shouldn't have passed the screening. So she felt like they were just doing it to kind of check a box. Interesting. And that she apparently really was not doing well during filming she tried to express that to production uh by saying you know i i can't be isolated right now i i'm really not doing well mental health wise she went into her previous experiences and things she had struggled with in the past but it didn't feel like necessarily she was given the resources uh to deal with those adequately during filming so

yeah some interesting allegations being thrown Netflix's way. Interesting. As someone who's been involved in these worlds, I have strong opinions. But I'm curious, Johnny, as a fan of reality TV, when you see something like this, do you love seeing the behind the scenes of it all and kind of getting the nitty gritty of what the environments are like. And when you see this type of stuff, do you get into that? Or are you just kind of like, it's more, I just want to watch the show. I want to see what happens. And I don't really care about that behind the scenes type of stuff. I think it's impossible not to get invested in to,

you know, the deeper elements. Like you're talking about talking about like i guess in layman's terms like the tea right like you always get sucked into that but for me specifically and i find this to be true for quite a few of my other friends who work in entertainment especially like if you're creative if you're acting or writing there is something some weird sort of like button that reality tv pushes for for people and for us specifically because i watch a lot of scripted stuff but once you've been inside of the factory that makes the product for so long it does kind of take away from the magic a little bit yeah not entirely but reality is you know for the part, what is promised, right? It's like these crazy people are going to do crazy things on your TV and just sit back

and enjoy. It's that perfect sweet spot, that nexus of entertaining and a little bit, you can phone zone while you watch it. Sure. And so for me, it's just like I come home from a day of like work where i've been creatively activated for x amount of hours and i turn on reality tv and i'm like the best writers in show business couldn't write this shit this is crazy do you ever as a writer feel inspired by some of the stuff you see on reality tv yes although there is there's this interesting phenomenon and i can't i don't remember the name for it but it describes this like human

psychological concept that um if you represent history to this is kind of boring but it's a little interesting if you represent it's not boring okay we're gonna cut that part out yeah you're like this is all getting cut don't't worry. This is the most interesting thing anyone's ever said on our show. Go. Thank you. If you represent history too accurately sometimes, like in a historical movie, the audience won't believe you that you're being accurate. So you actually have to basically make things occasionally in real life, less realistic

in order for it to play, which is contrary to what you would assume. You would normally think, yeah. I think the example that's used often is that whatever sort of like cultural time period like gladiator was they had billboards back then they had like their like roman version of billboards really and like ridley scott was like we can't put that in people will think we don't know what we're doing with history holy shit so this is a long way of saying that when i watch reality tv sometimes i want to pick and pull but then you go man no one's gonna believe this shit happens no one's gonna believe

that you wouldn't i would if someone told me and this was me attempting to explain vanderpump and skandival to my dad it was really funny because i was like okay so there's one tom and he's been with this other girl who's on the show regularly ariana and then there there's another tom he's best friends with that tom he's dating this other girl kind of not really dating they kissed and then the other tom and i'm like are you following he's like no i'm like great the other tom is in an affair with the girl the other tom is kissing and he was out he like walked out the door he's like i can't i don't understand this shit but the point being like it's so so interwoven and complicated and machiavellian and just insane that you can't pull that much from reality tv that was really interesting that little

fun fact let's go i like a little history i like the movie glider and that's true if you saw a like a their version of a billboard you would be like what the fuck are they doing what am i watching yeah i'd be out i'd be like that's the fuck are they doing? What am I watching? Yeah. I'd be out. That's wild. Yeah. Anyway, so there's a lawsuit. I mean, when I see this stuff, I generally, to be honest, roll my eyes. I will say, here's what I find interesting, that there are claims that their contracts say that if they quit the show early, they're liable to be sued for up to $50,000.

I thought that was wild. Because they're only paid $1,000 a week for filming. What? Yeah. So they're not paid at all. That's the thing. When you go on The Bachelor, you go on Love is Blind, you're not an employee. You're not paid.

They're pretty upfront about that. At times, you can receive this stipend. I don't even know what a fucking stipend is i just know it's not a salary a thousand dollars a week but it's not it's not like an hourly wage it's not an hourly wage but i'm saying they do receive monetary which is different than bachelor sure well i guess but it's not payment but it's not there i know part of that lawsuit is saying they made less than like minimum wage because they took the amount of hours that they were filming divided by like what they received and it's just like that's not how that'll get thrown

out immediately because it does break down to 714 per hour with the 20 hour days so their point is that like if minimum wage is $15 per hour we're making less than half of that nowhere near close and we're being subjective to these crazy conditions but here's the thing I just here's where i roll my eyes in general is they they all the the contracts that these people sign lay it out pretty yeah well the the contracts

they're these long ass contracts and i don't know what the love is blind contract says but the bachelor contract says we can fuck up your life and this is going to be hell on earth essentially right yeah i would be surprised if if these you know speaking as an employee of netflix i would be surprised if they didn't cover their bases pretty well yeah and it's just the problem i have is the average shelf life of a reality star that kind of pops and has some attention you know it's like 12 to 18 months and it can be a very crazy experience you go from an insane amount of attention and exposure and access and you get invited to talk shows and podcasts and with you know these shows like love is blind the bachelor they The Bachelor, they're just pumping out these seasons. And so once the next season comes out, the light just kind of drastically goes away. And it's just because that's when people from previous seasons start coming out of the woodwork and start complaining and making TikToks about how terrible it was and say things how they were denied access to food and water. And then they were like forced fed alcohol. And in reality, it's just like these days take

long to film. And it's not a vacation. It is not an all-inclusive, all-you-can-eat vacation, which I think a lot of people who sign up for these shows kind of think. And there are times where they might be like, yeah, we need to get this done. Like, food's served later on. Just the timing of it all. It's just like once the light starts dimming down, that's when they start complaining about the environment that they were in. And yet you never hear about it when they're getting all the attention,

when they're getting the adoration and the exposure. Granted, there's definitely a lot of manipulation going on in these worlds, but it's not that hard to manipulate because they all want the attention, you know? And it's just like, that's why I know last week a lot of people were mad because I was critical of Zach on the Love is Blind reunion and I didn't look at his instagram and apparently he posted something about his mom i don't really care because like listen i just think if anyone who goes on this show and accuses someone else of being there to get famous i just roll my eyes they're all there for attention you didn't show up for a show and not want attention. They literally call it an experiment.

And I just think it's just a little bit, I don't know, eye-rolly. I love that take. Yeah. I love that take. I agree. And I also think there shouldn't be as much shame around it. Or, like, I wish we could just accept that in a way as people who watch reality TV. Like it does feel like there's a certain expectation for the people to,

uh, project this, this, you know, notion where it's like, I was there 100% authentically. And my take is like, yeah,

part of that authenticity is saying like, it was interesting to me to be on camera. I come from this background and i would otherwise never have had this opportunity and yeah i you know some of this stuff was because of the circumstances because that's realistically as a viewer you understand that you'd be insane to go on any of these shows just for love insane truly insane that's that's the bottom line insane if you're not doing it open to love fine but like who would do any of this if like you didn't think there was a chance you could

get followers and attention and maybe make a career off of social media and that's why when zach is out there like he did the same thing to irena that he criticized micah of doing to paul and it's just like i love zach but he still you know plugged his instagram regardless of it was to do something sweet again like it's you you don't get to accuse someone else of being there for fame when you're all there and turn off your instagram if you you don't get to accuse someone of being there for fame if you have social media active and you're posting that's it i love that if you're off the grid social media if you have no social media follower accuse away but if you are out there making tiktoks and plugging your instagram and i don't care if it's for good i don't care if it's you have all these foundations and you're

giving all the money away you still like the attention because a lot of people do fundraisers because it makes them feel good about themselves. And I'm not here to judge. Pop off and get your bag. But stop being so fucking self-righteous when it serves you the best. And it's just like, listen, the lawsuit, the $50,000 to quit, I think, is weird and interesting. I do think, I'll just blanket statement if, you know, because when you go on The Bachelor, the psych test they take, I mean, it's like this, I don't know, hundreds of questions.

And, like, every other question is around, like, suicide, you know, trigger warning. And you're taking it, and you're just like, it's like, have you ever thought about suicide? Did you ever consider suicide? You know and you're just like it's like have you ever thought about suicide would you can did did you ever consider suicide you know it's just like scenario like if let's say you're you're super hungry you're about to order your favorite you go to your favorite restaurant to order your favorite dinner and they don't have it would you kill yourself you're just like i know they answer a lot of questions about suicide so obviously these are intense atmospheres they They are psychological warfare. That is true.

And I don't think, I mean, blanket statement, I think it's crazy for any of these production companies to cast someone who has ever said that they thought about or considered suicide. I mean, I would take that stand. If anyone has come forward and said, hey, I once was suicidal i struggled with like some pretty dark mental health i don't think they're fit for reality tv but anyone else who

goes on there i just think these are tough atmospheres and then there's just a lot of complaining when when the producers move on to next season and they stop taking calls and they stop giving the attention to the previous cast. They feel slighted. They feel used. And I get it to a certain extent, but it goes both ways, as you've heard me say before. And I just think it's a bit eye-rolly when you have a bunch of casts from previous seasons, about 18 months later, when their star dims and the only attention they can get is to start complaining about the show.

And those are the only videos that they post that go viral. I think it's just a little eye-rolly. I don't know. Do you think, because I hear you 100% with the conditions, especially feeding them alcohol, putting them in psychological isolation. So much of that contributes to the environment. And there's definitely a conversation to be had about the ethics of that. it's like that's how the sausage is made you like it or you don't with reality tv with payment to me it feels so simple to just pay people for their time like on film sets if you miss a meal there's a meal fine like there's all of these other they're not these are for the most part talentless people when it comes to entertainment. They are. I'm sure they have lots of talent in other areas, but they're not comedians or writers or actors or singers or performers. They are

talentless people when it comes to entertainment. And the only thing they bring to the table is their willingness to just be their truest self on camera. They go on these shows and they get this attention and their audience is like, you're amazing. You're so funny. And they start drinking the Kool-Aid and then they expect agents and managers to come out of the woodwork and they expect all these opportunities and brand deals. And it's a super competitive environment. And when it doesn't play out the way they expect, they get mad and frustrated and they start pointing fingers as to why things didn't work out the way they expected or they thought

they should. But so many of these people aren't willing to do the work. They don't go and start taking acting classes. And when they start taking acting classes, they realize that that could be a four or five-year process or six or seven-year process as opposed to like oh i took one class i'm expecting to get booked for gigs and jobs there's there's that mindset with so many of these people is that a common thing a theme you've noticed like they want to go be um like i guess on camera more sure i mean like when you go on these shows right you get this this immediate notoriety you get this following. And,

and I felt that too. It's just like, you're like, you want to do something with it. You're like, well, what should I do? You have every one of your siblings and friends from back home are all like

throwing you all these ideas of what you should be able to do now. Right. And then you can kind of drink their Kool-Aid and then, you know, but are they willing to do the work many of them are not willing to do the work and when the again when the attention starts going away they get super frustrated and then like manipulation on the show yes that happens but it's not that hard to manipulate these people because the producers

know they all want to be famous you know all want the attention. So all the producers usually have to say, it's just like, they're literally leading the horse to the water. Yeah. Who's already starving to just want to continue on, to want to be on the show. So yeah, are they pressured to get married and all those things? I'm sure they do. But we're talking about adults here. We are talking about adults who don't have to get married, who are able to make their own decisions and choices. And as someone who's been in these environments

and felt manipulated, and these are high intense environments, like you still had the ability to say no. You still had the ability to be like, no, it's not for me. There are people who say no all the time on this show. And some people choose not to, and that's fine. But when it doesn't

work out the way you expected it doesn't necessarily mean that you should be suing someone i'm you know i don't know i'm not a litigious person i kind of roll my eyes with some of this stuff and i just think it's a little we're gonna change that something goes wrong you just start suing that's gonna be your new move like yeah rebrand yeah i don't know become litigious yeah i should maybe nah i do a bad job today sue me waiter messes you order that's how people are some of these nowadays yeah it's kind of i know i'm not actually encouraging that don't listen to me i do think you could say though with reality tv having like grown the way it has and just like blossomed it does feel like we are still in like the early wave of this industry.

And I know like the power dynamic is very intentional. So that way they can create a show because if everybody gets their two cents about how the edit should be, you don't get reality TV shows. So I totally understand that part of it, you need to have one kind of like puppet master controlling narratives. But do you not think that as this industry emerges, there might be some space for correction of being like oh wow these powers that be have way too much control over people and there's like small quality of life things we could do to make this a more like dignifying i don't need why why does it need to be dignifying it's you know they can always find someone else willing to come on and i just think that you know until until they are unable to say do you want to come on for free

in the hopes that maybe you could become famous for no reason other than your own vulnerability, then until they have to do that, I don't think they should. I believe in competition, I suppose. But yeah, I don't think they should be pumping out these salaries to people for their willingness and wanting to go on TV. Plus, when it comes to a reality TV competition show about love and the just want to be famous kind of mantra, when you find out, well, all these people are, let's say, are making X number of dollars, it takes away the sincerity right off the bat right there.

That's valid. Hey, I'm doing it for love, but i'm also making 50 grand to go on tv is there not a middle ground though where it's like just get paid per hour and then the same as it as applies to like the crew of these shows like the crew of these shows are getting sure but the crew are their union people who are working in sag and their contract like whether it's cameramen or audio people or directors, it's their job. These people, it's not their job. They got bored with their job, whatever their job is,

and decided they wanted to do something crazy and fun and maybe travel or get out of their comfort zone or mix it up. And that's great. And that's exciting. And if they don't want to do it, someone else and 30,000 other people are in line willing to take that spot. Hearing you say union, it makes me laugh to think about if reality TV stars tried to form a union.

Can you imagine a more eclectic and unhinged group of people to organize than every person who's been on a reality TV show, like it would be crazy. I'm sure someone's tried. It's like, I'm envisioning you guys as your own like student council. And then it's like Francesca as treasurer and like Nick as president. And I think it'd be poorly managed.

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very well like to stay like you said you know the machine churns people and content out that is kind of like the name of the game that's by, by the way, true for scripted content too, typically, especially a Netflix model. They want you to be the flavor of the week and then they've got something else right behind you. But I can see how it happens in reality TV more specifically. Like, you know, you're the it person on Love is Blind for however many months you reign as the most current season. And then all of a sudden, like, there's someone else and you're lost how does is there like a in your eyes like a healthy way to like i don't know carry your momentum into a career or a life or something yeah i mean i think i think you have to be realistic first

and foremost you know i think you have to realize that why you did it in the first place because usually if you have a healthy perspective when you go on these shows it is is you're going for this crazy experience that's the healthiest approach to i don't know what this is going to bring me i'm open to whatever it might bring me but i'm going to recognize that this is most likely a temporary thing and there are no guarantees, but I'm truly going to have this crazy life experience that I will be able to have the rest of my life. I think that's the healthiest approach. And no matter what happens, once you get on that show, you have to have people around you that keep you level-headed. And I've always said, people on this show, listen to this show, heard me say it a ton of times, people on this show listen to the show so her me said a ton of times you know reality tv gives you incredible access and zero credibility you know so you try to use your access as much as you can

but recognize that you don't have the credibility so going on these shows if you want to say move to la or new york and give it the old college try you're probably going to get in a lot of rooms that say the average person who moves to la wouldn't right so instead of like going to get in a lot of rooms that say the average person who moves to LA wouldn't. Right. So instead of like going to those kind of cheesy casting director seminars back in the day where you'd have to like pay a bunch of money to get like low level cast directors to look at your like acting resume, you might get a general meeting with an executive at say NBC universal, but they want to talk to you about the show. Right.

And so it's just recognizing that while hoping that you might get a few minutes in that general meeting to say, do you have any advice for me? Like, these are my goals, this is what I'm working on, this is the work I am doing. And you just try to make connections that way and then show that you're willing to do the work

rather than being like, yeah, so I wanna act, do you have any gigs for me? Shit like that, that type of energy. There's a lot of luck. There's timing and there's a lot of hard work. And I struggled for a while. It's like every day you wake up, you're just like, well, what the fuck do I do now?

And if you follow me on social media, I've done Bob Ross paying videos. I've done roller skating. I've tried a bunch of fucking shit that some people thought was funny. It landed or it didn't land, but it didn't really go anywhere. And I always knew for me,

if I wanted to stay in this space, I had to create something that was my own. You know, I had to do something that I could be sustainable without waiting for someone to call me up and be like, hey, we have some teeth whitener that we want you to promote. Like I had to do my own thing

and I just was focused on that. And it doesn't work out for everyone, but I think there's this a level of, and I empathize because it can be very, the high of coming off that can be tragic. So you wanna have a good therapist and you wanna invest in your mental health. But I think people too often want to blame

things not working out the way they wanted on other people. Sure, that makes sense. I think that's a good answer. And I think that translates too, by the way. Even in the modern landscape of entertainment um and again like this is just my opinion but being you know being the arbiter of your own fate requires you to create opportunity for yourself you know i've had conversations with my dad about this and he's been acting for whatever 40 plus years and so i've

you know he has a take on what it's been like to be an actor a working actor in you know four decades and we've you know discussed this this sort of modern uh shift of like being a specifically talking about actors right now but i'm sure you know as a writer it's different because you're you're you're writing so you are actively creating but as an actor you're typically waiting around for opportunity and then you're supposed to capture that opportunity that is it is a far less tenable path nowadays than it was because there's so much more supply there's so many more people thinking like i'm gonna move to la they have the means and and and especially with like tiktok and you know

social media twitter reality tv there's a million different avenues to get into it in the first place and you're competing with people like you know who have social media followers and some don't and you know there are people who who do you get the benefit of the doubt because maybe they have a couple more million followers and someone who doesn't who's put in less work you know and things like that freaking nepo kids like i i'm one of them like i acknowledge that like i i was you know i'm sure my last name got me into i'd be crazy to say that. I'm pro-Nepo, baby.

You are? I am. Thank you. I am. I'm not. As you shouldn't be, but I am, yeah. No, I mean, I could talk about this at length. I think, listen, we all have certain levels of privileges.

I think it's important to recognize yours. But as far as someone who has parents who know nothing about Hollywood or anything like that, whether it's nepotism or I come from a sales background, if the first thing you do when things don't go your way is to look at how other people might have had certain advantages, I just think you're never going to get to where you want to go. I just, whether, whether those are accurate criticisms or whether the advantage, the disadvantages that you discovered are accurate. I just think there's always something we can do to elevate ourselves. There's always something that we can learn from, you know, someone else winning a job or an opportunity. And I just think when I start thinking about, you know, oh oh well they got that because of their parent or this i'm not going to get to where i want to go i just strongly feel that way and so that's why when i say i'm pro nepo baby i just i'm not worried about the advantages

that other people have i'm just going to figure out how i can overcome those yeah uh and control what i can control i think that i like that take i i do think that both takes can exist simultaneously because i i you know i think that is the a very very like mentally healthy um way to approach all things is like if i worry about other people's business rather than my own it's detracting from like my progress. That being said, I think it's still important for the frustrating part about, I think nepotism,

you know, kids of any industry. It's interesting that entertainment gets this, you know, magnifying glass on it when it's in everywhere prevalent in every single industry across the you know world but i do think that it's as simple as these people kids or adults whatever they are acknowledging it because it is frustrating to me when i do meet people in similar circumstances or see other people or read about them

and all they have is a staunch defense as to like how they got to where they got to i'm like that's great i want to hear your defense because it is important like i i do this i talk about how hard i worked in the rooms i was a pa in for three years and i got lunches and coffees and like i did that stuff but you do still need to acknowledge it you have to throw it out there otherwise like we were talking about it's about self-awareness and authenticity. There you go. Yeah. Like it comes down to like, just don't bullshit people. I think that's what it is. I think people just want to hear, say people like yourself who might have certain access or advantages, just acknowledge it and then move on rather than

assume that there were no advantages. I'm assuming that, say, someone in your case or other people maybe who have prominent parents, I think maybe there's just a defensiveness, right? For sure. Because there's this immediate, oh, you didn't do anything. Oh, it's only because your dad's Rob Lowe and here you are, like you said, you've done some grunt work,

you've done the getting the coffees. To this day, the scariest job I've ever had is getting lunches for a writer's room. Oh, my God. The modifications. Oh, it's... And then like... Particular people.

And then no one thinks about like, how am I securing all this food in my trunk? Because I got to get back in like 10 minutes. I'm taking turns. I'm taking sharp turns. Yeah. And this is sliding around. And this guy who replaced... He's like, he wanted the brown

rice on the side and the sauce and the thing but i didn't oh did i screw that up that's the most stressful job it's why i'm door dashing is the absolute worst stop ordering drinks on door dash i don't have enough cup holders like i literally don't know where to put them have you had to do lunch runs well i was worked as a door dasher during the pandemic you did that makes me like you more thank you yeah yeah good for you thanks there's a moment yeah i just i i like uh i like people who are willing to do things that you would yeah because so many we live in a world where people think they're too many things are too good for something i feel the same way you know i feel it's just like i have nothing but respect like you know the again this goes back to like certain elements of shame people carry around i i feel unnecessarily like people who are like

i'm an actor but i'm also like a waiter i'm like good for you yeah that's awesome that you are taking the it's what you were talking about it's like taking initiative if you're doing something to support you know a growing career you have and like you need financial support and you're out there doing anything people should celebrate that yeah i'm curious what you think as someone who's lived in la for eight years i honestly think one of the biggest uh how you become successful in hollywood i would say number one just outlast everyone else. For sure. I think that's great advice. So to that point, if you're willing to be a waiter and you're willing to do

whatever it takes and work those odd jobs, you're so much far in front of everyone else. Because again, most people will move out here. their they got a couple bucks from their parents or maybe they saved up some money and they were willing to do a waiter job but they just you know got sucked into the party life or things like that or they got a couple auditions and didn't get the job and they got discouraged and they just kind of moved back home and they moved back home to like you know milwaukee wisconsin and then people like oh so how was la it's just like you know it's just like it sucks. And the people suck and everything sucks. And I missed home. And it's just like, the reality is, is like, maybe they just didn't want it as bad as someone else who was willing to do that work and willing to stick around because availability more than anything,

you know, all of a sudden you've been in the city for four or five years, you'd done some classes, right? And then you just, the opportunity, you you know what do they say luck is when preparation meets opportunity you know and it's just like just being available and sticking it out yeah that that is to me is i think it goes number one hand in hand with that but i always say like when i talk to young people about that are seeking advice what the the main thing i often say is make sure you love this that's like the first checkoff for me always because they're because and when i say this i mean the craft and when and that could that could mean whatever it is acting writing directing fucking producing i don't i'm trying to picture a 12-year-old being like, I can't wait to be a producer.

I can't wait to yell at everyone. But that's the thing. It's an industry rife with rejection, circumstances that are going to fill you with self-doubt, insecurities. You're going to hear no a lot, and you're going to have your ideas torn down a lot. So to walk through all of that

with a healthy head on your shoulders, you have to absolutely love doing it. And many people don't and they don't know that yet. They just like it or they like what comes with it. That's the big one. They see the destination rather than the journey they see like well i you know it'd be cool to be dating so and so and on the cover of this thing or whatever and and uh the truth is like you only really i mean this isn't universally true but for the most part you only get there if you loved it because like

you said that's going to allow you to outlast and outwork people yeah did you feel like it was or did you have a moment where you had to question how much you loved it growing up in the industry because i feel like growing up going to auditions i realized how much i loved it because i was there on my own and learning how to do everything on my own and then i'd watch all these moms like brushing their daughter's hair and running running lines with them and you could tell the mom was the reason that they were there and I was like well wouldn't that be nice but like here I am like up by my bootstraps yeah no I that's yes I have felt that I mean I I grew up I did not grow up wanting to be um to work in entertainment because my parents were very actively pushing my brother and I,

it's just us two, away from that. They were very, very anti us falling in my dad's footsteps. Were they anti because they truly just wanted the kids or you and your brother to have nothing to do with it? Or was it more, if they want to do it we want them to want to do it so much that they are almost like kind of go against the grain you know like that's you know what i'm saying that's a better way to articulate it it was it was not that they were like you cannot be it was like if that is what

you want to do you will have exhausted every other resource that's what you want to do, you will have exhausted every other resource. That's what I want to make sure of. And I genuinely like, I'm so sensitive to coming off like, and here are all my accolades, but like I worked really hard in school. I was like a huge nerd and I went to a college prep boarding school outside of Santa Barbara where I was raised.

And then I went to Stanford and I graduated in four years with, you know. That's pretty incredible. honors in my major. Thank you. That's very cool. I worked in a stem cell biology research lab for four summers in high school and became a published scientific author.

Now that one I got lucky about because I just cultured cells that got used in an abstract. Again, I think luck is required in all aspects of life to a certain degree but you don't you don't get published as a scientist by just like waking up one day and just having stumbling into a lab you you have to make things happen it was a lot of luck but a little bit of work for sure uh you're a humble man and so i i i say this is like i at one point i thought i was going to be a molecular biologist at one point i thought i was going to be a molecular biologist

at one point i thought maybe i'd go pre-med and i was always um writing throughout my childhood and into my you know late teens and college years and i had done a little acting but acting it always spooked me specifically the culture around it i just had seen you know the effects of it and i i'm kind of a secret introvert so it had just startled me so we love we love a good introvert okay good uh same z's same z's but so when it came to the moment in time where i was like you know what i really like writing i really like like it. I got to actually humor this. Then I did, I feel like what the healthy thing is. And again, I recognize opportunity. I had the opportunity to go do this, but I took the PA jobs in the writer's rooms.

And my goal was to go there and absorb it and see like, is this a career path, a viable career path for me? Could do this was this after stanford this was while i was at stanford during the summers damn you know i worked on uh like some of trying to think of like my like the mick i don't know if you remember that show on fox like the churnins the guys who created that were like mentors to me afterwards and that was an incredible experience i was an assistant to a director executive producer on american horror story for a season and i would just like and i mean it like an assistant like i would like go and like i did fun creative stuff like you'd be like can you storyboard this scene for me or can you outline you know the the beats of of the next draft but then it was also like hey like can

you go get my smoothie from the truck and i was like great yeah hell yeah i was like sure what do you let me make it the best smoothie you've ever had man i love that man and i think that's that speaks to why you know you had the level of success you had and i think that's where a lot of people people miss that right because you know sure you've you've had the access that's there's no question but took a lot of work to get into Stanford. And then even after that, your summers, you could have easily wanted to, like, just chill, relax, but, like, to do that type of grunt work. And that's where, like, when you surprise people with your work ethic, especially when people assume. I think anyone who goes on reality TV is, like, similar, I suppose, to like a nepotism kid too,

where if you just, there's a lot of people are gonna have assumptions about you just by where you come from. Oh, you're on reality TV? Oh, you have a sense of entitlement? You're this, you're that. Oh, you're a nepo kid?

Same thing, sense of entitlement, lazy, whatever. But you show up and you're willing to do the work and you're willing to like do, to grind it out and and learn and humble yourself that that's this like that separates you from so many people so quickly yes i completely agree and i think that that comparison is valid and and and my my remedy for that and my advice i've given to people is like you have to be okay without working the people

around you at least for a certain amount of time ideally for the rest of your life but at some point you have to commit to outworking the person to your right and left as a as someone where there are preconceived notions to you because you're swimming against current. Like they want you to fail. Maybe that's too broad, but like they've created an expectation of you. You are entitled. You are privileged.

You have a chip on your shoulder. You might be lazy. It's like, okay, great. I will just outwork these people until they can no longer acknowledge, until they can no longer ignore the reality of this situation. Yeah.

I'm assuming then hearing about your background in molecular biology and then obviously your relationship with your dad, that a lot of inspiration came from For Unstable. Yeah. I think, you know, it's funny. I had thought that people would realize, and during the press, this was part of the press push too is like how similar it is to our lives but i think people are very surprised when i tell them like first of

all that dynamic on screen is is really close that's what i was wondering is a nice dynamic oh razor thin okay truly when i first turned on the show and like the opening scene with with your dad because i didn't really know what it was i was just like oh i'm gonna turn it on and watch it i honestly thought it was like an opening to like a scripted reality tv show of your life because your dad seems to play like a caricature of himself so well yes you know or he like leans into what he might think a lot of people might think he acts for sure right and he does that so brilliantly he i'll tell you this much that i have no that's a a good take like an astute observation and the truth is that's kind of just what he's like too in reality.

Like that character, Ellis Dragon, his character on Unstable, Chris Traeger, his character on Parks and Rec, and a little bit even like Eddie Nero, his character on Californication, if you ever saw that show. Those are him. Like especially like Chris Traeger, who people are always like, he's like a child on that show. I'm like, like, he's like a child on that show. I'm like, yeah, he's like a child in real life. My dad is lovely.

One of my best friends. We have super healthy working relationship. But he is, and I tell him this, he's more of like a best friend than a dad. He's like a kid at heart. We'll go, it's like, you want to go surfing today yeah let's get out there i got there i catch like a a great wave and he's not like yeah i'm so proud of you i go back and he's like i just got one that was like a foot bigger it's no big deal you know it's like that kind of you know youthful competitive and i love it it's so fun but he's he's such a little baby boy and so that's why

this and so as as did your relationship with your dad evolve did you i i would imagine you got closer as you became more of an adult yes i would say we got we were always you know growing up was tricky um and he was he's always been a good dad that is the truth i say that begrudgingly but um like fine whatever you're welcome dad it was tricky growing up like i remember when he was doing the west wing i didn't see him that much like those hours were really intense and um like you know i've unpacked it in therapy. I like that you gave therapy a shout out. Oh, yeah.

Super pro therapy. I got therapy after this. Yeah. Yeah. I go twice a week, bro. Damn. Nice. Hell yeah.

Want to compete on our mental health? I go for, and I am so pro therapy. Nice sessions. Yeah. Mine are 90 minutes. Get in there. I do EMDR. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are 90 minutes? Get in there. I did EMDR.

I love EMDR. I don't actually right now. It's okay. We were about to be friends and then we were this close. And then I was honest. My fiance is in EMDR. Really? It's great.

It's really great. But I, to not drag it out, it was trickier when I was young because he was gone a lot for shows and then he started to adjust and he was like, I'll do shows on schedules that I can be around you guys more often.

But we have become very close in the past five-ish years because when I got sober, he really helped me with that and that just like was a connection, like a bond that we've really sort of built off of. And I'm super appreciative for his help in that regard. That's awesome.

I'm assuming it must be a lot of fun just working with him too. It is. Yeah, I mean, look. Especially on your project. Yes, on our project. It is fun. It's frustrating at times.

He's still a man that has been famous for whatever, 30, 40 years. So with that comes a certain level of diva-ness. I don't have a better way of putting it. Expected privilege. So when his rice slides into his sandwich. His rice slides into... sandwich oh by the way i am i'm highly underqualified to be getting his food i would never like the people that have worked for him or our family i'm i'm always like you guys are superheroes dealing with my parents the way you

guys do you know he it's like small examples where it's i'm sitting there on set you know they've called us and i'm you know it's lit i've done my you know last looks and everything and then his car with his driver pulls up to set and like parks like right next to the camera and he gets out and he's like all right let's go and i'm like well we've you don't give me a let's go we've been let's going for five minutes now waiting around here don't let's go. And I'm like, well, we've, you don't give me a let's go. We've been let's going for five minutes now waiting around here. Don't let's go right now. So it's fun, but he's,

you know, he's not, he's not a crazy person, but he has, you know, been, he was famous. He got famous when he was 18 years old.

You can only be so grounded. It, it seems like I, I feel like as I got older, you know, as someone who is pro mental health and i i work really hard on on myself like i really want to continue to challenge myself to just be a better person not to sound cliche yeah but as i've gotten older i've also learned to accept who i am it's just like are certain, this is how my brain works. This is who I am.

And I don't want to necessarily convenience anyone, but I also like, Hey, if you want to be around me, I just need to be upfront that this is me. And it seems like to a certain extent, like you said, like you're, you've learned to accept who your dad is and, and love him for that. And then kind of, you know, let him work on some of the other stuff. But a big part, I think, of all relationships is a balance between challenging the people in your life to be a better version of themselves all while just accepting who they are

and loving them for their strengths and their faults. Yes. In recovery, there's this notion of acceptance around being perfectly imperfect. And it sounds very cheesy, but I, I firmly, you know,

stick to that thought multiple times a day. And it applies to both people and life and the universe and whatever you want to apply it to where it's like this person or this thing is the way they are perfectly. Like I don't get to control that because it's goes, this person or this thing is the way they are perfectly. I don't get to control that. Because it goes way back to what you were saying, which I really like. You were like, when I start to worry about why somebody else got something that I didn't get that messes with your process, it's the same on a more broad scale with like,

if I start to accept that things are the way they are for a reason then that gives me more peace in life that doesn't mean you just get completely complacent because like a you know there's a really pretty prayer called the serenity prayer that's you know god grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change the courage to change the things i can and the wisdom to know the difference so it's like you you gotta know the things you can change, work to change them, but there are many, many, many things you cannot change, and that's the hardest part,

is learning to accept that. And then work through the reality of that. Speaking of, I don't know, maybe they're Nepo kids, or maybe they have a hard time knowing the reality, but let's talk Vanderpump for a moment. Let's fucking do it. or maybe they have a hard time knowing the reality, but let's talk Vanderpump for a moment.

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We often hear about the glamour and the fame and the attention, but there's so much more that all come with a price. And so many of these people's stories are really just wild and fascinating. The Janet Jackson one with the whole wardrobe malfunction is a wild one. The Whitney Houston one is one of my favorites. If you love stories about some of your favorite celebrities and the behind the scenes, like for example, if you like Succession, the Murdoch podcast, it's very Succession-esque, you know, those wild stories. So to check out Even the Rich, Even the Rich is a podcast from Wondery that tells the jaw-dropping stories about the tumultuous lives of the world's elite from the greatest family dynasties to pop culture superstars. Listen to Even the Rich on

Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can even listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Hey, people, it's a tough world out there. We need to talk to people. We need to let things off our chest, whether you're dealing with anxiety, money problems, relationship problems. Maybe you just need to talk to someone. Maybe you're not sure if you should move in or move out with your boyfriend or girlfriend. Therapy has changed my life for the better.

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So that's betterhelp.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Have you always, have you been a fan for a long time? Okay, so I was a fan. I watched it. One of my college ex-girlfriend got me into it. That was how I got into it. I remember being like, what do you want me to watch right now? And within like two episodes, I was like, dude, play the next one. Go.

I've never gotten so hooked on a show. I've been watching reality TV for most of my life. Never have I gotten hooked so quickly. I had never watched reality TV. I'd never seen. I had friends and stuff. I just never done it. Since then, I've cultured myself, obviously.

I'm a man of culture now. I've seen most of them. But I took a long hiatus from Vanderpump I uh life just led me on a different path sure and I came back to it um as it does you found your way home I came back home uh and then you know as as fate would have it Scandival landed on our lap and I was like I knew I was back here for a reason so my question for you because we we've been talking a lot about it i've i've had some tough critiques of the toms as a man yourself um it's always bad that's i just know just like we can't defend our species like that man we're the worst but what what is it i'll try what is about like and you were you were with schwartz i haven't met him in person him and i've

been messaging back and forth about coming on yeah i think last week's episode was a perfect example why i think i think schwartz has hope as and where i don't think sandoval does yeah that moment where schwartz called out sandoval about like all you do is show up and get mad and say a bunch of shit but you don't really do anything yeah like what work are you doing to get this place open it's like you know sandoval had the wherewithal to be like it's my mom's retirement money which i think the collective of bravo nation was like holy shit you're a piece of shit for taking your mom's retirement money and then fucking off with your band all while like leaving the responsibility of this bar on everyone else

but you and i really believe when he was like talking about his nails or band practice i don't think he was kidding no it was like i can't have grubby nails but my mom can lose her home it's just like you know and that he's just like oh well that was a scheduled practice that was in the books for weeks as if tom sandoval has never flaked you know what i'm saying but the dude continues to spiral on that show it's pretty it's pretty remarkable yeah yeah i will say before we okay because i'm gonna get into my takes and i'm gonna get into the mud okay i feel important to preface it and say like there is this is so lame but this is my disclaimer of like and i feel like you'll respect this somewhat maybe you won't but like

these people are humans so i do feel like there is some sense of where i'm like everyone like again goes back to what i just said everyone's imperfect like people make mistakes some people fuck up way more consistently and way bigger than other people yeah Yeah. And it is totally within our reason as people, as human beings to both do that. And then to both go, I do not mess with you as a person and I don't want you around me or like, I don't mess with your image. So that's my,

I completely agree. As we talk a lot of reality TV, we acknowledge that for the most part, many of these people we have never met in person and these are all edited shows. And so we reserve the right to be completely wrong when discussing these people's character. Okay. And who they are.

Now that being said. That being said. Let's get into it. Let's get into it. Look, first of all, Schwartz, charming dude. That's what Katie's warned us about. She's like, he's's gonna come on the show and you're gonna fall in love with him i dm the guy and i was like hey we loved you having a show i

just want to be up front with you i've been a little critical of you but like i think it'd be fun and he's like yo man nick congratulations i mean even through his dms just charming yeah it's like you know whatever like love bombing it's like an energy bomb with him yeah you're like whoa this guy just fired me up yeah i like this guy for sure um and i've spoken i've i've met a few of the the cast mates and and and i've i you know i think that they're all not surprisingly very charismatic um shorts has this really disarming energy though that has has contextualized all of the vanderpump tea for me very well where i'm like oh i because watching it you're kind of like how does somebody like this get so many chances or how does somebody like this get into so many situations and then i was around them and i'm like man i'd make some fucking mistakes with this guy i'd do some stupid

stuff with this guy he's fun yeah like i'd go out and like whatever man like i'm sober and i'm like man i'd make some fucking mistakes with this guy i'd do some stupid stuff with this guy he's fun yeah like i'd go out and like whatever man like i'm sober and i'm like man if i was drinking i go out with that guy and get drunk and we would like get into trouble together he's like he's got that like natural instigator energy in an in a wholesome way which is very strange and he's very nice i don't know you watched watch what happens right yeah he was the wrist weight thing he was was not a bit he was wearing them in the green room before we went on and he was like i just touched my face so much i gotta stop i'm just gonna wear them out there and he was like do you think they look super like noticeable and i was like the massive wrist weights like tom do you want me to be honest with you but i said to him i'm like

look you have this whole authenticity thing going right now like ride that i was like it was so funny because and that's the other thing there is this weird i'm sure you've experienced this there is this weird like cultural circumstance where it's like these reality stars have so many actors or famous people that are uh fans of them yeah and then they're like wait that person's a fan of mine like i was like i walked in and i i was like i played it kind of cool but but they know they you know andy briefs them they're like he's a super fan and and i was like i don't know about super fan but i'm a huge fan and can i smell you can i yeah you know give me that tom tom hat or whatever

uh how you gave me a shorts and sandy's hat that i was like okay this is cool that's dope um but like i have a friend who i i won't name but is like a a very very successful actress and she was like you have to facetime me from the green room i have to meet short and i was like okay fine i will and like right before i left i had forgotten to do it i was like oh shit like shorts and i i facetimed her and her husband who's like one of my closest friends and they came on and he was like oh hey and and she on the other end of the face i was like so shy i got so shy and starstruck i was like hi oh my god and then hung up and and it was so funny because i hung up the phone and i was just thinking about my friend and he was like she's a fan of mine i love her and i was like yeah man we watch vanderpump every week together it's this really interesting

dynamic how it works reality stars are such a unique they capture such a unique corner of like media and attention. It's blends all things. It's very interesting. I've gotten, I've digressed. I do want to get back into skin. No,

you're right. It is true. It's kind of wild. What was the weirdest celebrity story you had? Uh, Vanna White, Vanna White wanted to talk to me when I was in the dressing room. And one of her friends was my,

you know, hairdresser at the time. And she's like, Vanna White would just, can we FaceTime her? Can we call her? And I was like the dressing room and one of her friends was my you know hairdresser at the time and she's like Vanna White would just can we FaceTime her can we call her and I was like yes it was a thing she's a legend and the fact that she you know just you're right when you realize certain people know you exist yeah exist is a wild is a wild uh realization sometimes it was it was really it was honestly kind of wholesome to see in that moment. Because I was like, oh, people just like each other.

And then I'm like, oh shit, there's mud here. I gotta get back into it. But no, that experience with shorts was fascinating. Watching Andy's reactions in real time to what he was saying. Because he was clearly saying too much. It was palpable. It was so evident within the first three minutes we were on the air that it was going to be like that the whole time because and he was kind of saying it beforehand too he's like i could he he openly was talking to us about how you know he was kind of nervous and i don't want

to completely air out the things that he said, you know, in privacy, but hearing about the scandal situation by enclosed doors, it's, it's just really intense to hear about how like watching it, you understand it's real, but there's a part of your brain that's like, this is all happening on my TV. Like, is this all a bit? And then when you hear about like real world emotions and stakes and that guy's a human and there's human impact that this blowback is having. It contextualizes it in a way that's very interesting where you're kind of like,

oh, that's crazy. Do you think having been able to talk with Schwartz behind closed doors, do you think he gets it? Do you think he gets... Because when sandoval went on howie long's podcast howie mendel howie mendel sorry long howie mendel's podcast and we're gonna get a chance to talk with howie next week yeah yeah how is this like i don't get it and then tom was like i don't get it either and it was like what don't you get and it's just and i think the disconnect like even

less gets it i do think he gets it i don't want to give him the full pass in the sense of like, honestly, if he gets it, it's worse because he was around it the whole time. So I want to say he doesn't get it. But maybe at least get it now. I think he gets it now. And I do think he gets it now. I think, look, again, it boils down. There's recurring themes in this show.

I like it. We bring it. It's full. It's circular here. But it comes back to what you were saying of like, at the end of the day, these people went on a show because they knew that there were cameras there and there's nothing wrong with that. And I think innately it has stuck with them that like drama kind of makes the world go

around on Vanderpump. You know, that's how it goes. Yeah. go around on vanderpump you know that's how it goes yeah and so i do think that shorts gets it now but that he's there's a part of him probably that was comfortable being around the drama of it now my my sort of headline on this is having met shorts and spent time with him i think it's totally unfair to put him in the sandoval camp on the level of contempt we're seeing i i i agree i don't i haven't met either of them but even from afar watching the show again i do i think there's hope for swarch i think he has some growing up to do i think uh i think he's too much of the fun guy

and and in terms of taking on responsibility he could maybe step up a little bit but i i really think sandoval he he's shown no hope for me when it comes to him where i i really think even that last episode talking about his mom's retirement his unwillingness to like step up when his general manager was like well why don't you guys come in here and do the work the look on sandoval's face was like i don't what the fuck i don't i saw that too right like again you're talking about doing coffee runs and doing grunt work and you could have easily been like i'm fucking johnny whatever and i think tom sandoval has that kind of a you know i'm fucking tom sandoval you know like i don't yeah i'm the name i'm the talent i'm the one who brings in the

people yeah and it's like he's not willing to get dirty unless he's being dirty so to speak but like i just don't yeah he just like even when he was talking to ariana and he was like oh ariana's you never take my side and it's just like you never because when it comes to tom sandoval it seems like no one else matters other than himself and you know and once he's dealt with his immediate needs that's when he can consider other people's needs and i can't imagine being in a relationship with someone who has a track record of just constantly putting themselves first and not realizing that they're doing it. Yeah, like utterly lacking self-awareness. Yeah. Yeah. I'd have to ask

my first ex-girlfriend what that's like. I'm kidding. That was a self-rust. No, I, again, I will say that, and I'm sorry to be so lame and continuing, continually contextualizing things. But like if my life was on camera,

there's a, especially before I got sober, cause I was a really lost person when I got sober. Like I get how people get to the place that we see them at where you're like, how is this person doing that? I don't condone it, but at least i understand it sure i'm like yeah it's a sequence of mistakes in a row there's some level of

childhood trauma that's probably unaddressed for sure there's some level of insecurity and fear and um resentment that has sort of laid dormant in that guy probably for a long time, and it's manifesting in him bucking over his partner and his friends. But I can at least comprehend how a human gets there, and that gives me some level of like... Empathy a little bit?

Yeah, a bit. Now, mind you, again, I'm not condoning it. And especially, his circumstance is so egregious. So egregious. If you, let's say, hypothetical. You go into a general meeting. You walk into an elevator. In comes Tom Sandoval.

It's you and him. You go up. Elevator gets stuck. And you're in an elevator with Tom Sandoval for 15 minutes. What advice do you offer him? That a great i love that setup i get why you have a successful podcast thanks man um i got you uh right now this is right now you leave today you leave today it's our elevator it's gonna happen you guys have set this up it's a plan yeah um i would tell him to remember that hatred and love are very close to each other on the emotional spectrum

and that people right now in the world quote unquote are hating him because they had expectations of him and wanted him to be this person they could idolize and so I would say what that means you know optimistically is that with the right type of self-work And image restoration you can be loved again and more importantly the people you care about will love you again. It's not about The people on instagram and twitter. It's about his close friends who are equally as pissed at him from what I understand

And that's what you have to repair And you also have to he probably hates himself right now. It's my guess whether he wants to admit it or can can Coherently and consciously think it You got to learn to love yourself again and let these people back into your life so i would just basically tell him all of this contempt you're experiencing is only because people at one point loved you so much so just know that you are worthy of that and use it to be the person people want you to be yeah yeah because you gotta you can't just be like bro like ditch raquel probably get sober and quit the fucking band figure your life out

and just keep your head down for two years because you're not fixing the emotional spiritual part of it which just means you'll screw up again at some point it's like the disease versus the symptoms yes yeah that's why i mean if i that's one question i wish how or he would be asked is why do you think you cheated and and you can't include ariana in that answer you know it's like where did that come from inside why why did you decide in that moment to handle it this way rather than handle it a different way and by the way this is kind of i want to pose a question to you guys because i've had this conversation before with like female friends of mine or guy friends of mine it's like i like posing you know and i don't want to i don't want to lead you to an answer because i have a take so it's what would

be worse for you to find out from your partner that they had sex with someone else or that they were having an emotional affair with someone else um that is a great question johnny and i'm dying to get into it because actually we love this question we talk a lot about cheating on this show and then i have a couple questions for you but now it's time for don't sweat the wedding sweating the wedding sweating the wedding or whatever it's time for i't Sweat the Wedding. Sweating the Wedding. Sweating the Wedding or whatever. It's time for... I don't even know my own segments. Don't Sweat the Nuptials, your new segment. It's time for Sweating the Wedding.

Johnny, you down to help give some wedding advice to our callers? And then we'll get into your great hypothetical question. I'm so down. How's it going? I'm doing good. What's your name? My name's Quinn? I'm doing good. What's your name? My name's Quinn. I'm 25 and I'm trying to decide if I should invite my family to my vow renewal in Vegas.

And my family is in a religious cult. Okay. All right. Well, tell us about this cult. So it's pretty mainstream. I'm not going to name it because I still have a lot of family that's in it. And I know that it's really important to them, but it's a very extreme Christian denomination. And my husband and I got married when we were still in this religion. And so we got married

under their religious practices, which included a closed door wedding ceremony. None of my friends were there. Most of my family wasn't there. And it wasn't the fun party that I always dreamed of. There were also a lot of weird religious rituals that were thrown on me that I wasn't expecting. And so that was three and a half years ago. Now we are still happily married and we've left that church and we want a new ceremony that like really shows who we are as people now because that one doesn't reflect us anymore. So we're planning one in Vegas for our five year anniversary. But I don't know if I should invite my family. Interesting. And like, I'm assuming you call it a cult now, but at the time you didn't refer to as one.

Right. I'm assuming the people practicing just see it as normal. Interesting. Well, what's your gut tell you? Like what, let's look pros, pros to invite them, pros to leaving them out. What, what are, I'm assuming you've run through some of those thoughts already in your head. What are they? assuming that you've run through some of those thoughts already in your head. What are they? I want them there, but I want them there in an ideal scenario where they can be supportive and happy for me. One of the things I've thought a lot about is the fact that now that we've left, that ceremony means a lot more to them than it does to us and so i don't want to ruin that for them because it happened so it might as well be a really special and amazing memory for someone

um so i don't want to risk tampering with that or offending them and i don't expect them to celebrate essentially leaving this religion with me which is kind of what the vow renewal is also a celebration of yeah um but i want my you know my dad never walked me down the aisle and i would love to have that experience have you uh spoken to them about or introduced the notion of uh doing something that wasn't necessarily fully aligned with your previous affiliation with that religion or cults like do they seem very against the idea or are they moderately open to it? They're pretty tight-lipped. I don't know what they're saying when I'm not around. They're kind of easy enough to talk to in person, but I think that this might be a bridge too far for them. How did they handle you leaving the church? Not very well. We still have an open

relationship. We can talk to one another and we communicate but it was really difficult for them and we are a year removed from me telling them about two years removed from me actually leaving and it's still a sore subject for sure well i mean i really think this is the case of of just boundary setting with your family. So I guess the question is, like ideally, here's what I would do, and I'm curious what you think, how they would react.

But the obvious, the thing that comes to me quickly is just reaching out to them, whether it's a phone call, maybe a letter might be better, I don't know, to get your thoughts out and just explain why you're doing what you're doing. And I think you should be as transparent as you feel is appropriate. And you say, hey, listen, you're still my family. I love you.

I know that we've made some decisions that you don't necessarily love, but I hope that you still love us and respect us. But ultimately, here's why I'd want you here. I'd love for you to walk me down the aisle. I'd love for you to be there just to support us, even though you don't necessarily agree with why. And if you guys could do that and respect our choices, we would love to have you there. But I think you set some clear boundaries of what your expectations are. And I think you have to be pretty clear on things you expect them not to do, you know, as it relates to making this, you know, this is not a time for you to try to bring us back in. We want people around us who may not necessarily agree with it, but are

there to still celebrate our love. And if you can communicate that and they're willing to do that, then I think you can be open to it. But I think you should prioritize you and your husband and the vows that you want to renew here. And I think to me, that would be paramount. And if you think there's a chance that they could take away from that, and this could just be like wedding number one, 2.0, so to speak, then I think maybe you don't have them there. Yeah. I also think too that I've really been wondering if it's even fair to invite them because we're not going to have the same guest list that we did the first time. It's going to be much smaller. We're prioritizing friends and people who couldn't celebrate with us the first time. And so beyond walking me down the aisle, i don't know what else they would really

want to participate in because like there's going to be some drinking there's going to be activities they don't support and so i don't even know if it's fair to put them in a situation where they have to like suffer through that well they really suffer they will say that they are, yes. I agree with your advice. I think as somebody who is a huge fan of boundaries and boundary work, I think it's healthy for anybody to start to open their mind to this notion that you are entitled to have the wedding that you want and the things you want um as long as it's not at the expense of of you know hurting someone else and you're not

hurting them by doing you get by the way i mean you gave them the wedding that they wanted it sounds like um so i think uh transparency is your friend right now. Like being, you know, because the one thing I think that the key to all of this, I imagine, is having enough communication that you can then walk down that aisle with or without them and feel content either way. You can go, well, I voiced my take and invited them and they couldn't accept my version of an invitation. And so I get to carry on without them or maybe they do accept it but i think you know having that conversation that or the boundary oriented conversation with them is a good idea because you don't want to just like probably not address it yeah here's why i think to add to that why i'm in favor of at least you

giving them the opportunity because i think you're right i think it's it's probably best that they don't come right i think your gut's probably right here but they are your parents it sounds like you still love them and still want to have a relationship with them you know and as we get to adults, our relationships with our parents can be very complicated because there's our parents' expectations of what that should look like, and then our own expectations. And then when our morals and values as adults don't line up with our parents, it gets real messy real fast. And in your case, it's like the extreme version of that. But it's just one of those things, like if you don't reach

out, if you just say, I'm not going to invite them and you make assumptions for how they're going to act or how they're going to behave, even if you're right, they can weaponize that against you. It's like, well, you didn't invite us and blah, blah, blah. We feel left out and yada, yada, yada. And they could make all these accusations

as opposed to you reaching out, being very clear what your expectations are and almost paint a picture that makes them go, yeah, we're not fucking going to this thing. But just the invitation and leading with love by saying, I love you guys. You mean the world to me. I understand I'm making choices you don't agree with, but no matter what, you're always going to be my parents. And I love you with all my heart, regardless of the lives we choose to lead. And here's what I would love. This is what's going to happen. Here's what I'd like. I want to be upfront. These are the types of activities that are going to be present at this wedding.

So out of respect for you, I want to be upfront and let you know so that if this is something you're not comfortable with, I understand why you wouldn't come, but I don't want you to feel uninvited type of thing. Right. And I feel like that way you're covering all your bases and not giving them an opportunity to feel unwanted or criticize and things like that. And most likely it sounds like they wouldn't come if you paint an accurate picture of what this event's going to be.

And then I feel like you're going to feel a lot better from having at least invited invited them and not just you know on it and disinvite them and just distance yourself and my sister's definitely going to be coming so i don't think there's really a scenario where i could only extend an invitation to one member of my family i don't think that would go over very well um but there's also, I definitely have this urge to downplay it to them and make it seem like it's more of a party and not really be fully open about how important of a ceremony it is for us. I mean, you know your parents best, but I don't know. I feel like you should not hide that fact. I think you should feel proud of what you're doing and you should feel good about it.

And again, I think that's part of boundary setting. It's kind of standing up for your parents to say, I'm no longer going to feel shame and guilt for doing something that I know is right in my heart, even though you don't agree with it. And I still kind of expect you to love me regardless because I have the right to live my life. And respectfully, this is the party I want. And you're not doing it to throw you in your face. You're just doing it out of respect for them because you're like, hey, I want you there, but I know you're not comfortable with X, Y, and Z. And so I just want to say,

I understand if you don't come because of X, Y, or Z, but I just want to be upfront because I respect you and I respect your choices and I respect your religious and your practices. It's just, I hope that you respect mine. And that's kind of what you're just, you're setting a new expectation with your parents of, I have the right to state my expectations, set my boundaries and respect yours, even though I agree. And we can agree to disagree, but we still respect each other, even if it's from afar. Right now, I don't really have any sort of emotional reaction to whether or not my parents come. But there is also a part of me that's worried that the day of, you know, I do all this, I set the boundaries, I explain to them what's

going on, but then I'm there and I'm sad because I don't have my family with me. And I don't want to replace one subpar memory with another. Like I want this to be done right. And so I'm just trying to figure out what right really is. I think so much of it is probably like the perspective and the way that you set expectations for yourself. And I think like trusting future you to like, if you do feel a moment, like maybe you're about to walk down the aisle and you feel like a little pang because your dad's not there, like trusting her to be able to like navigate that and move through it. And, you know, maybe feel sad for a small amount of time, but then continue to have a really good time and be present. Or alternatively, like because, you know, you know, you have some areas where you've identified ahead of time that could be tender.

of time that could be tender, like having a friend who you really love walk you down the aisle and like using it as an opportunity to like kind of think about the traditions where you might feel the absence of your family and think about ways to reinvent those traditions to embody where you are at now, because you are someone who's been so capable of acknowledging and practicing discernment with like you're the way you were brought up and values and kind of all of those kind of pre-autofill settings and deciding which ones like serve you. And so continuing to do that. Just remember why you and your husband are doing this.

That's the focus. Whatever your reason that you two sat down and said, we want to renew our vows and this is why, that should take priority over everything. Because otherwise, what's the point? Just don't have the party. But I think all your decisions that you decide, does this elevate the day that we want to have and the reasons for us having it, or does it take away from it? And I think that's how you should go

about your kind of decision tree. You should ask yourself that question with every choice that you have. Is this going to elevate how we are? Is this going to put me in the right state of mind or the wrong state of mind? And that's what you should prioritize. And you should not prioritize everyone's feelings. It's your day. It's your and your husband's day. And you're not doing things out of spite. You're not doing it for revenge or to say, fuck off. You're clearly considering everyone's feelings. I think right now you just need to consider your and your husband's feelings and this day and everything else will fall into place. One of the things we've talked about a lot is the fact that even though we aren't in that church anymore and we would have done things differently,

we could go back. It's still what brought us together yeah and so we want to find a way to like kind of honor that ceremony in our renewal without um while still recognizing that we are kind of getting married to who we are now again instead of who we were five years ago yeah and i think that's great yeah who's um do you have someone officiating because that strikes me as like an area where if you have a close friend, um, who can really like tell your story in a way that like acknowledges all of the like history and all of the ways that it is so meaningful and like informs this moment, like that could be a great way to feel like it's kind of in the room with you or, and this might be a horrific idea. I don't know your parents, but like, I don't know if, if you said, I would love for you to write a letter about like advice you have for like marriage and like five years in, like,

what advice do you have knowing what I know now about marriage and wanting this future and wanting what you guys have and kind of speaking to complimenting them and their relationship and saying like, it would mean the world to me. I don't think this ceremony aligns with your values, but if you could write a letter for me to read the day of like that would mean the world to me so like approach it with an invitation first rather than just like a hesitation and try to like involve them in the process yeah but you shouldn't run away from being up front with them about what this entails and i know that's like i think with when it comes to our parents we're very afraid of disappointing them even as a you know it's like this they have this weird power dynamic over you but i think this will go a long way of your parents continuing to understand

that if they want you in their life they're going to have to respect your choices even if they don't agree with your choices and that's that's part of life you know like we have to love people for you know especially our siblings our parents our children you know like they're not going to become That's part of life. We have to love people for, especially our siblings, our parents, our children. They're not going to become clones of us and we still have to respect them and love them for who they are. And sometimes parents need to have kids enforce those boundaries and say,

no, you can't make me feel shame. You can't make me feel guilt. I'm happy with who I am. I want you in my life and I need you to respect it. And if we, and if you can, then we can, we can still love each other. It's going to be a hard conversation because we haven't really talked about the church in a year. And so just talking about it is going to open the floodgates a little bit, I think. Yeah.

But you're, I think you're right. Might be healthy in the long run. Yeah, probably. Yeah, it's a lot but I think you'll be glad you did and I would talk with your husband about it. I'm sure you guys are there and he's probably going through a similar thing,

lean on each other with this type of stuff but it's a challenge but protect the day that you're trying to have because otherwise, what's the point? I have a hard time putting my feelings before my family's, but I think this is just a time when I have to. Cause if, you know, if you're not taking care of yourself, if you're not taking care of yourself, you can't take care of them, you know?

All right. Anything you want to add Johnny? No, I think, I mean, I think you said it when you said you have a hard time prioritizing your feelings over your family's, I think a lot of people can relate to that. You're not alone in feeling that. And I think just trust that you deserve to prioritize yourself in this moment. It's about, this is about you and your husband, both of you guys. So prioritize that and be invitational to your parents but it's not

about them yeah and i think it's totally great that you're you recognize that no matter that the fact that you left the church that that's how you and your husband met it's like it's like heartbreak and pain you know like you can still appreciate, I'm a, I very much appreciate so much of, of the things that didn't go the way I hoped in the disappointment I've experienced in my life because it truly has brought me to where I'm at. And so you can still show a lot of appreciation for where you came from, even though you still don't want a part of your current life. And I think there's, I think that's great and there's nothing wrong with that.

And yeah, like it's, that's a lot easier than trying to pretend that you and your husband meant a different way. It's just like, you know, you don't have to pretend you can still like, yeah, this is how we, it's a great story. You know, I'll, you know, how'd you guys meet? Oh, we met in a cult. What? You know, like it's, it's funny. It's a meat cult. Yeah. Embrace it, have some fun with it, but yeah, you don't have to hide from it and run from it. And it's brought us so much closer to just like leaving together because for a while we weren't sure if we would both leave or if it was just me that was leaving. And so it's like we're just fundamentally different people now.

And I kind of want to be able to celebrate the fact that we still choose each other. That's amazing. Even though we aren't the people we were when we first said yes. Yeah. When is the vow renewal ceremony? It is August 8th, 2024. Okay. Okay.

Copy. All right. All right. I'm going to be sending you an email. All right. I think that's excellent. Well, good luck. Please keep us posted what you decide to do and how you handle this.

Will do. But make sure you prioritize the day you're trying to have. All right. Thank you, Nick. All right. Take care. Wild call. Wild this. Will do. But make sure you prioritize the day you're trying to have. All right. Thank you, Nick. All right. Take care. Wild call. Wild call.

All right. Back to Johnny's question. Emotional cheating or having your partner just fuck someone else? The emotional cheating is worse. Has to be. It's the only problem with the fucking. It's just like it's hard to know how much of it was meaningless sex. But in this hypothetical and this is in this hypothetical

it's a one-night stand your partner fucked someone else i guess came and told you even oh then the emotional cheating is 10 times worse yeah and for the emotional side they realized they were emotionally cheating on you came and told told you. And came and told you. Both the circumstances. They both came clean. They came clean in both. But again, one conversation is, I slept with someone else. I regret it. It was emotionless. And I'm sorry. And the other one is, I've had feelings for someone else.

I've been doing this emotional thing for weeks now. I've been in this thing and I, I want it to stop. I care about you, but I have to tell you about, to me, I'm like the emotional, they're both nightmares,

but, but the, the emotional one, there's something about that. That's so again, and it goes back to Vanderpump, but it's like, because all roads lead back to Vanderpump,

but I don't know that, but, but to be clear, because all roads lead back to Vanderpump. But I don't know. But to be clear, by the way, it's totally within reason for someone, and I think I fall under this category of like, well, I don't know. It's within reason for someone to be like, both are just end-all be-all circumstances. Sure, I mean, yeah.

But the emotional one for me seems impossible to get past. I would never, ever be able to to move i would just be like i i don't know like there's a certain level of of pre-meditation that is required for that versus uh someone's sleeping with another person which which is, again, both nightmares, but the emotional aspect. I would agree the emotional part is far worse. I mean, sex to me has definitely changed.

I mean, I grew up pretty religious, not cult religious, but Catholic. Sure. And so I dealt with a lot of shame around sex and things like that, and I put dealt with a lot of like shame around sex and things like that and i put sex on a pedestal and now it's very meaningful yeah but yeah it's not the same as an emotional connection and you're right the potential betrayals and lies that come with it you know and like you said back with vanderpump when you see these moments

where Raquel's being called out for this, and she's, I think that's where people have just been so fascinated with, every time Raquel does one of these in-the-moment interviews, when she's talking about doing work on herself and wanting to be a better person, and then we're all watching it being,

how can you say that to us? Doubling down, tripling down, while doing something 10 times worse than you're even being accused of doing right now. Yeah. That whole thing with, who's the guy who had a wife? Oliver. Oliver, where it was the perfect out for her. perfect out for her like you've been caught in in in being you know the other girl while currently being the other girl secretly get out go out be like you know what this i realized

how messed up this is that that for me watching that and knowing like damn they kept going yeah like why wasn't that a catalyst for change how did that not she sat outside that restaurant with lala and was like i know what it's like to feel like a mistress now and and to be also a great line she has that i had to rewind to make sure i heard it correctly was when she's like i didn't realize like men were capable of deceiving i'm it's obviously you know this isn't verbatim but it was like i didn't realize men were capable of deceiving i'm it's obviously you know this isn't verbatim but it was like i didn't realize men are capable of deceiving women like this and i'm like what ma'am what whatever where were you raised have you never experienced a man? Like I have such little faith in art and men.

Or just people. People, but hold on. Because yes, women can do out of pocket stuff too, for sure. I'm not trying to let them off the hook completely. But like growing up around LA and being a youngish man myself and having to do the amount of self work on myself that i've done i understand how low the bar is i'm wildly grateful for how low the bar is in some cases because i'm like i'll go on like a i'll meet a girl or whatever like in the past and and it's like bare minimum shitting and it's like pull the chair out for them and they're like oh my god yeah open the car door yeah yeah or or say thank you to a waiter or

whatever it is like be decent to another human being or like don't you know someone bails and you're not like fuck you whatever it is and i'm'm just like, people do this. So anyways, the notion that she was like, I finally realized. That was some serious disconnect. Yeah, it's wild because I get how people can compartmentalize certain things, especially if they have experienced trauma in their life. Yeah, for sure.

But you're right. It's Raquel's willingness to talk. How is she not connecting the dots between what she's doing? Well, she says an interesting thing too in her one, in like whatever they call it, the talking head thing, where she said this thing, I forget when she said it, where she's like, I have a hard time.

I want everyone to like me. Or she vaguely got introspective or briefly got introspective for a moment and said like, you know, I struggle with, you know, people's whatever it is that my relationships and wanting people to like me and doing what. And it was just again, it goes back to the thing where I'm like, ah, you're so close. Like, just bail on this thing. It's so messed up. I don't know.

I'm so fascinated at how many outs she had. Also the Oliver of it all. Speaking of people's willingness just to go on TV. Crazy. To get famous. It's my understanding that, did Oliver just agree? It's like his only role on the show is to be the guy who kind of is cheating on his wife. All while making out with

raquel i'm glad you said this because what like why did he come on i've been thinking about that ever since what's his role okay i i i share the same sentiment i'm like come on the show and please explain yourself yeah get him on here yeah no I watched that. And again, I don't understand. Like I've been invited on to like, I've had various invites to do various things. And like, again, I get it for the people that do it. But for me, I'm just like one of those people that I'm like, I, I don't, I know how this goes. You know, I have friends that have been on these shows and I,

I know people that have worked on these shows and, and the notion that a producer calls him and it's, it's not like he's foreign to reality TV. That's what I'm saying where I'm like, you've, you've, you know what it is. You know the process and they're like,

you're going to come in. Cause they, this other thing is, I mean, it's not scripted. It's not set up, but they know the stage. they're like you're gonna come in because they all this other thing is i mean it's not scripted it's not set up but they know the stage they know it's staged they know what their role is and it's like you're gonna be like the i think they probably sold him on this notion of of you're the hot guy for an episode and girls are gonna fight over you and i like how he attempted to defend himself too at that first of all the fact that she went there and she was like, I'm going to go talk to him after speaking to, it's, it's so clear. He was just, he's married, right?

Like he's definitely married. Yeah. It must be. No, it sounds like he's very much married, separated, which is a gray area. Yeah. As a very generous gray. It's a very big gray area of which a lot of of people even listening to this show have been victims of men claiming to be separated but they're not that separated and i'm planning on

going to the the vanderpump one in vegas so if i see him i will ask get in there get the answers yeah but it's just more like hey you're just gonna hey you're cheating on your wife or great you want to come on our show and talk about it yeah it's bananas and then yeah the the then i just don't get where do you go from there like okay your time in the sun is over and you're like your friends are you know because you gotta people want to know they hear you're gonna be they're like oh you did a, you're on Vanderpump for two episodes in the midst of this huge scandal. So people,

more people are watching and you're like, yeah, check it out. I have a fun little cameo. What do you do? He's like, I have a two episode arc.

What's your arc? I fuck some shit up. I just go in there and fuck some shit up. Well, it seems like because he had admitted to being physically intimate with his wife,

ex-wife, after the hookup with Raquel, that like, maybe they were separated. And so he was going at this from a very legal loophole standpoint of technically we're separated, but it's like if you're still living,

co-parenting, and hooking up with your wife. He stays there a lot because they have a kid. Obviously, I get that he wants to be with his kid, but he was clearly not giving that amount of detail before he did anything with Raquel.

No. How about that moment when she's like, did you have sex with your wife that night? And he's like, no, no, no, not that night. Like maybe a couple nights later. And you're like, oh, got it. It's not like he's showing up, whether it's with Raquel or anyone else,

before he makes out or hooks up with them. He's not like he's showing up to whether it's with raquel or anyone else before he like makes out or hooks up with them he's not saying listen i'm in this incredible messy marriage you know me and my wife were separated but like we're still having sex and i still spend a lot of nights there and like it's just i'm i'm we're still working on things but also technically we're separated so like do you want to make out? He's not saying that, you know, he's leaving with I'm,

I'm separated from my wife. Yeah. I, I, that was fascinating to me, but that's just, yeah, it's,

that's it. But that again, to go through that as Raquel and then not bail is mind blowing on Sandoval. And she even says like, you're putting me in a really hard position here yeah lala gives her that speech where she's like the guy always gets away scot-free and you will take the brunt of this and she's like i understand that now that is true it's crazy that

is so true that easy like yeah women will scorn their friends. Yeah. They will, the blame almost exclusively goes to the women and guys, because, I think it's because their guy friends are just kind of like, whatever, man, you know, like. Yeah, I mean, I think. I don't know what it is,

but they usually don't get held accountable. I guess this is probably a hopeful outlook, but I do think, like, in our current climate, like, men hopefully are held more accountable. Like, it seems like Sandoval is getting held fairly accountable he's getting raked through the coals pretty hard but um it is just the i i feel for everyone i i this is such a lame take but i do feel bad for everybody involved it's okay to have

empathy okay thank you thank you i know my therapist would say the same thing right now i'd be like am i people pleasing is this me protecting people i think there's a different i think people struggle with the idea of empathy and accountability yeah you can have empathy and hold someone accountable you can empathy is just trying to understand yeah why someone might make a choice that they did yeah right we can sit there and discuss whether it's raquel or sandoval be like again like maybe there's some unresolved trauma maybe Maybe there's just, you know, maybe there's X, Y, and Z things that happen. Does it justify anything they've done?

No. Should they still be held accountable? Yes, but we can still, a lack of empathy is why everyone on the internet and the world just says narcissist, you know, rather than to say, okay, maybe it's a little bit more complex than that. You know, maybe they are dealing

with some narcissistic traits or selfishness, but like, are they a malignant narcissist? Fuck if we know. There's a thin nuance to the difference in this, but it's that subtle difference of like, the internet being like, I've been doing it already, but we can cuss on this show, right?

Yeah, yeah, fuck shit, false. The internet being like, being like, fuck you forever. Versus like, fuck you forever versus like fuck you man you fucked up they're just that subtle difference of like total utmost condemnation which i don't universally believe in there are certain things where i'm like that person you don't come back from that it's a very sticky area but it's like i do believe in a culture where someone like sandoval i go like i'm gonna give this guy like years straight up years that's where he what he's earned himself but like years of where i would want to see that person if and this is me in a hypothetical situation as his friend where i see like demonstrated change not for cameras

not for publicity not even for ariana like for himself i'm like i want to see this guy go do soul searching and work on himself and there is a light at the end of that tunnel to me because i think it's otherwise like as humans what you know you have to believe in bettering ourselves there are people that are lost permanently and that exists and there's like horrendous people on this planet but there is i choose to believe in like hope for some of these people because you don't want to just go like fuck you forever man totally because the sad reality is tom sandoval isn't the only one who cheats it's a fairly common practice in relationships. Yes.

And I think the problem is painting the whole picture where he's also come off very poorly at times. Where it's like, okay, we wanted to dislike you and you gave us a reason why. That's when you really have dug yourself a hole. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. I want to believe, you know, he talked about this on Howie Mandel's podcast. He wants to use this as a catalyst for change.

I wouldn't bet on it because he's given us no- I'm not betting on it right now. Because he, yes, he's still full of excuses and he still treats the whole situation as kind of like, oops. Yeah. Seeing him roll straight to Coachella too yeah with a with a t sandy sandy outfit i love that you know this yeah um yeah that was that to me which is funny because to

most people they're like whatever he was just i'm like that to me was the biggest marker where i'm like bro he doesn't get your ass as someone who has heavily employed the help of self-help experts, like, you have the money. You have the resources. Go check yourself in somewhere. It's for you, man. Coachella is the last place on earth you should go right now. It's like the opposite of an AA meeting.

It's literally the opposite. It's quite literally the opposite. When I'm healthy healthy i debate going to coachella i'm like i don't know if i've earned this spiritually to to be in like rock bottom and be like you know where i need to go right now the sahara tent i need to be in vip of the sahara tent right now with my name on my shirt that to me was i was a big red flag it's the reddest of flags wait i want to ask you one thing yeah i don't remember her name but you had the blonde girl from love is blind on here this week right micah yeah was that crazy it was it was good it wasn't that crazy she was

you could tell i haven't watched the full season i know what happens i'm pretty sure but but her watching her i will say this was interesting it was very the opposite of tom sandoval my impression was and i'd love to you know the ladies to chime in if they have a take but she seemed hyper aware of the criticism she received and she seemed humble and willing enough to to like she didn't make a lot of excuses i mean she she she was careful with her words you know i she you could tell that she didn't necessarily agree with all of her peers points of view sure and she had some um examples as to what frustrated about some of the things that happened but at the same time she you could tell she was very careful because she realized she definitely stepped in it and

and kind of got it got a little reckless there was a sense of remorse you or something or at least like accountability i sense some remorse for sure it remains to be seen you know like against with irena and micah listen they they gave the appropriate apologies sure do they mean it i don't know i don't know these people time will only tell if they follow through that goes back to like actions you gotta let action speak louder than words so the words start but then you gotta back it up yeah that's the thing are they smart enough to just recognize that they have to apologize because they really stepped in it and the only thing to do? I mean, like not everyone does that. Some people will still like push back and not give the apology. So, you know, give them some credit there. But we'll see.

But it was she she was she seemed like she definitely understood how it came across how she looked and she she looked genuinely embarrassed for how people perceive her now my takeaway watching it and again i haven't seen the whole season but i've seen enough which was like i felt again the empathy thing came up but but like there's one scene i was watching where they're like she's in the pool and she's like the, and, and, uh, the guys,

Kwame Kwame's talking to her. I'm, I'm bad with names. And, um, I was like, damn, they seem,

first of all, so drunk. Oh yeah. We, everyone has alluded to that day. That pool party was rough. Fucked. I was like,

damn, they seem so drunk. None of this should be on camera. And like, I don't know. It just was so sticky in this gross way where I was like, all right, you know what it did? It, it actually graduated into this very rare area on reality TV where I don't enjoy watching it, where I'm like, this feels gross. I don't want to be a part of this. Does that make sense?

No, you felt almost uncomfortable. I did. I did. But I like feeling uncomfortable sometimes watching it like, oh, like the tea, you know? But that one in particular just felt like I was like,

damn, this is not fun. What felt uncomfortable about it? Was it, you felt like- Well, I think there was personal stuff for me, like watching people be super drunk, make mistakes where I'm like, I don't know if this person struggles with addiction. I don't know if this person is going to rethink their relationship to drugs and alcohol after this. That was definitely a part of it.

And I think the other part was just like, I don't know. There was a sense of giddy attraction, which was veiling. You see like it was veiling these insecure i mean the insecurities on i think like kwame where it's like this is a rejected proposal and now this girl is saying like i still care about you and stuff like just the human nature element of that where it's like having to watch that guy go through the spectrum of emotions while probably being drunk while being on camera having never experienced anything like that before i was like i get why this is good tv but this is bumming me out a little bit does that make sense no it does i mean it's your ability to empathize and like having lived you know through some stuff

and it's listen it is complicated circling back to how we started this show you know as someone who is um is sober now um and i've you know i'm grateful that i've never struggled with something like that so there's a part of me where it's just like when contestants say it's like, oh, well, we were over-served. You know, my experience in that atmosphere is everything's available. Sure, you have agency in that regard. And you know, but then the other argument would be like, well, the stakes are so high and people, you know,

kind of often cope, you know, by consuming alcohol because they're nervous and they've never been more nervous than in this moment where they have no support system they have no friends no access to their community they don't know who to trust where do you fall on that it's tricky for me because it's it's it's like i'm trying not to like cast a projection onto that circumstance where i'm imagining myself in it you know pre-subribe now nowadays mean, it would just be easy for me. I would just, I would not be in that circumstance ever,

but I know how hard it is to fight, to get to this level of clarity that I, I've gotten to, and I have not gotten to it, um, on my own doing. It's like, you have to,

you know, turn your life over to a higher power and like, trust other people. Unless I have like people that help me. And so I know how difficult it is. Um, that being said, the first step in becoming, um, I have like people that help me. And so I know how difficult it is. That being said, the first step in becoming a rational,

healthy human being is self-awareness and responsibility for your actions. And so it's like when I hear someone be like, I was over-served, it's a very different statement than like, I was put in an environment that wasn't conducive for me and thus I made mistakes. Does that make sense? Like again, very slight difference. It's nuanced, but it's like I was over served is putting the blame on someone else. You can say like, Hey, this environment was wildly unhealthy and it brought out the worst in me that's different that's very different yeah i i completely agree yeah and i think i'll that that subtle difference but still a huge difference in how people kind of interpret their experience on these types of shows because you can't get back you can't grow as a person until you recognize your part thing yeah that's the big that's the big thing i was just gonna going to say, I think that's so, in talking

about why the criticism of the internet can be so counterproductive, it's because it's this mass outcry of hate based off of a limited story and granted it might be true or the cameras were rolling, they captured this thing, but when you have people judging your character so harshly and so

intensely and you know they're seeing something so limited, it kind of validates a defensiveness that can then really get in the way of you being like sorting through it and be like okay which of this is on me which of this is on other people you never can win fighting with the internet no that's the biggest you just have to

that's the biggest truth message today the internet always wins wait last last question I'm over time but I'm having fun I mean

I have more questions I could ask you too but okay what's the craziest thing that's ever happened on this podcast do you mean like what's

informationally or just like do you have a moment you got she has something Peter come on drop it

please is it Peter it's just Peter coming in like three drinks in because we left him out there in the lobby. Really? What was so crazy about it? He just like helped himself to the liquor cabinet and came in.

It was 10 in the morning. And he had three. And he showed up early and we had Girl Boss down as like our guest co-host and he was kind of coming in for like a, it was a quickie interview. And he came in hot yeah whoa um it was just a bizarre i wanted to get some like tea from you guys for a second so this is this is i'm good yeah he uh he came in it was like 10 in the morning and he well he came in

with a white claw and i and i was just thinking myself like okay this man feels comfortable like he helped day of the week like a tuesday oh my god yeah monday or tuesday for sure yeah and he walked in and my first instinct was okay pop off like help yourself to the fridge i mean like whatever it i literally was like you know it's a tangerine white claw it's basically mimosa like i was trying to make him he had another white claw and he was like this is my second one and i've already had a shot yes he was like, this is my second one. And I've already had a shot. It was like all of the reveals got progressively more and more unhinged.

And we were like, oh my God. And that is unhinged. Yeah. Oh my God. But we were grateful for his time. Other than that, I don't know if there's. Oh, this is before their time, but I had someone, uh, walk out.

No way. Yeah. Well, they showed up late. I was pissed. Can you name them or no? No, I'm not,

but it was a, it was, uh, my old producer referred them. Okay. And they came in and it was one of those things where I felt like there was a lot of, there was some ego, I think maybe even on both of our parts.

But I was excited to have them. I don't know that. I'm also a little aloof in my thoughts. And when I'm prepping for an interview, I'm kind of thinking about what I want to talk about. So I've had to work on being like, hey, to greet my guests probably a little bit better. They were like, hey, and we like to have at least, we record long episodes, as you know. And we like at least at least, we record long episodes, as you know. Yeah. And we like at least an hour, you know?

Sure. And so they showed up 30 minutes late. And then we're like, oh, we have a, so like I had 20 minutes. Oh, God. And so they walked in. I was like, well, let's get going. And I was like pretty curt about like, let's just start because we're limited on time. And they are like, i don't feel welcome

here and just like i should just leave and they just got up and peaced out and uh that was wild i don't feel welcome here anymore johnny lees uh after two hours yeah they very much were acting like they were doing me a favor and i and i was just like that's not you're not help like you're i can't do my show. Like, you're kind of bad at favors if this is your best go at it. So there was that. Other than that, it's not too crazy. That was pretty good.

Those are two pretty good answers. We try to create an environment where people have fun. Yeah. You know. I'm trying to think about, like, what I could do that's, like, a fake moment right now where it's like, you know, I, I'm, I'm trying to think about like, uh, what I could do. That's like a fake moment right now where it's like, you know, get out of here.

We could, we could fake it. Then we can use that as our, our trailer. Yes. Yeah. So click baby. Yeah.

Fuck this. Yeah. It's like done, done, done. I'm like, I can't believe you'd ask me that. Uh,

I have one more question for you before we let you go. We, you know, this is a relationship at dating podcasts as well as pop culture. We like to talk about all kinds of relationships, both traditional and untraditional. But right before you came in, we were looking up your dating history. And a recent article said you have a girlfriend, but you're in an open relationship? Incorrect.

Incorrect. Okay. Wanted to clear the air here. Yes. I'm not super public about most aspects of my life that I don't want to be out there. I talk about sobriety a lot. That's typically a very personal thing, but I do that on purpose because I know that for me as a young person, it was super helpful meeting other young people because I thought like, oh, my life as I know it is over, fun is over. That's intentional.

oh, my life as I know it is over, fun is over. So I want, that's intentional. The relationship stuff I keep private because I haven't had a lot of privacy in my life and that's not been by my own doing. And I think that's the side of being a quote unquote nepo baby that people don't think about. And I'm not like asking or vying for sympathy in that regard, but.

No, it is important. So the things that I can somewhat protect i do and so like people are always going to read into like this person hasn't posted this on instagram in a while or like this person's like and it's all you know i'm happy for people to read tea leaves but um now i'm not nor have i ever been in an open relationship um i admire people that can do that i i think that would maybe break my brain. Well, in our earlier conversation, I was like, there's just no way he is

because of your response to that comment. Which comment? When you were asking us about the cheating. Oh, yeah. No, I'm not. No, no, no, no. I, again, I... Not that open relationship is not cheating,

but there's a level of being okay with your partner connecting with other people in different ways that other people don't have the bandwidth to do. Yes. Props to those people, but I am not one of them. Johnny, this has been a real pleasure. I've enjoyed talking with you so much. We could go on and on. You're welcome back anytime. I'm coming back. I'm sure we will recap. Do you ever watch The Bachelor? I have before. I think I've seen episodes from your season.

Okay. And then I had a friend who went on it, so I watched her season. She like almost- Who was the friend? Hannah Ann. Oh, you know Hannah Ann? Yeah.

Love Hannah Ann. She's the sweetest. She's great. But that was crazy because I was just like one person and then I was the person that was the shortest engagement in

Bachelor Nation history, I think. I think so. Yeah. But she's living her best life. She's living her best life. She's crushing it.

I've seen episodes. Well, if you ever get into watching a season, come back on and recap with us. I'll do it. I'll do it just to come back.

Great. Thirsty. No, I'm kidding. Please let my audience know, obviously, you have your show unstable out on Netflix it's a great show I think I'm three episodes in super entertaining a lot of fun also just anything else you're working on or where can people follow you yeah of course watch which camera should I look into right here all? All right, ready for this? I'm going to stare into your viewers' and listeners' souls.

No. Please, yeah, go check out Unstable. It's streaming on Netflix right now, and it's a quick binge. It's eight episodes, half hour. And I think I'm like Johnny Lowe on Instagram. You do not have to go engage with me on socials though. Social media scares me.

It's fine. Go follow him. And yeah, watch the show. And if you like the show, let me know. I don't have anything else to plug, man. I'm not that prolific. Okay. Might we look forward to season two?

Yeah. So that isn't, you know, I'm not allowed to talk about it too much. Are you optimistic? I am optimistic. Okay. You're optimistic. But yes, if you like the show, finish it and keep watching and maybe you'll get to see some more. That's amazing.

Thanks again for coming, man. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you guys for listening. always don't forget we have barbara corcoran thursday on an episode of going deeper thursday night another episode of better date than never and we'll be talking some you know something raunchy well now we call it fuck club so whoa no what it's a live dating show that is basically turned into a live group chat of people swapping wild sex stories, best practices. We have a doctor on who's a regular guest. It's a lot of fun. We talk sex toys.

We talk all different. It's a lot of fun. But make sure to tune in to that. As always, we have Vile Files Plus available for you. We have a bunch of updates. And don't forget another update special on Vile Files Classic this Friday for everyone to listen to. So

be sure to check that out. Other than that, we'll see you back on Thursday.