The Viall Files - E575 Ask Nick Updates Special Episode - Part 7

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files! Today we have another special “where are they now” update show where we give you updates from our past callers to see what’s happened in their situations and relationships since appearing on the show.  We bring on our first caller who was having a hard time separating herself from her CrossFit coach, who was also her former situationship. We check in to see if she’s been able to leave the gym and maintain boundaries with him. Our second caller made out with her friend’s coworker at a company outing, but received a long and formal text about how interested he was in having a “tryst” with her, causing her to question if she wanted to see him again. Finally, we get a second update from our caller that was interested in her neighbor that she went to a Harry Styles concert (and Europe) with. Has she had an honest conversation with him about her feelings, or are they continuing to hang out as “friends”? We also have some written updates - our caller who fell for her boss’ brother, and our other caller whose mom was running her dating apps. We hear where they’re at now after our advice.  To catch up on all of these callers original questions please see the show numbers:   Original Episode numbers for callers: Episode Number: 537 Ask Nick - There’s No Medal For Staying Friends Episode Number: 545 Francesca Farago - Likable Villain Gone Bad Episode Number: 533 Ask Nick Updates Special Episode - Part 4  Original Episode numbers for written updates: Episode Number: 533 Ask Nick Updates Special Episode - Part 4 Episode Number: 540 Ask Nick - My Mom Runs My Dating Apps   “We don’t have time to dance around it.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://www.viallfiles.supportingcast.fm Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/ To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell

what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files files. Update special? Yeah. Oh, I'm Nick, by the way. In case you didn't know. Joined by the household of Ali Amanda and Dara Leak. Dara Leak? Dara Leak, my balls. That is workplace harassment. I'm putting that on the record.

No, it's a quote from Zoolander. I know, I love Zoolander. I did not know it was a quote from Zoolander and i thought you were just saying that i was delighted we are off to the races when i was like a child people come up to me and they'd be like i bet you got that a lot yeah they'd be like do the blue seal and i was like in middle school i'm like i don't know what the fuck you're talking about oh it came out on my birthday did everybody have something like they would say about their name people other kids would say about their name growing up nick the dick you think you're so slick because you shave your dick with nestle quick i heard that a lot well that just rolls

off the tongue yeah it's like a limerick they didn't just have a nickname for you nick the dick you think you're so slick that's a children's book nestle quick nestle quick what is it you don't know what Nestle Quick is? Like the chocolate milk? It's the only chocolate milk that anyone should ever drink. The powder? It's Nestle Quick. It's powder drink.

I don't know. That's what I drank as a kid. I haven't had chocolate milk in 20 years, maybe. I was just trying to understand what- No, it was Nestle Quick for us. They shortened it by the time we came around. Oh, really? Yeah, it's Nestle Quick.

They did a rebrand? Yeah. They did. They simplified it. They did. They didn't want anyone to be confused. They had like a rabbit. shortened it by the time we came around oh really yeah they did a rebrand yeah yeah they did they simplified it they did they didn't want anyone to be confused they had like a rabbit a rabbit was their little yeah justin did really came in it was like drop the lee that's a social network oh my god and it was we're all citing different references okay okay oh no no no please no i i did i had my finger up. I was in prime tirade.

What do you guys think is the most underrated breakfast pastry? Starbucks egg bites. Oh, interesting. The egg white bites. First of all, it's not a pastry. Pastry. I was thinking, not a sandwich. What makes a pastry a pastry?

Well, it's just the pastry. It's not like a sandwich. It's not like a... Would you consider a quiche? A pastry a pastry. Well, like it's just the pastry. It's not like a sandwich. It's not like a croissant. Would you consider a quiche? A pastry? Yeah. It's a pie. It's a pie crust.

What? A pastry. Can we look up the definition of a pastry? A pastry. I would put like donuts or croissants or chocolate croissants. You think a donut is a pastry? Right. Okay.

A dough of flour shortening in water used as a base and covering in baked dishes such as pies. Sounds like a quiche qualifies. No, no. There's a pastry in a quiche. Yes. Yeah. Oh, I get it. Yes. That makes sense to me.

So to call it a pastry, it needs to be standalone pastry. Would a donut qualify as a pastry? I would say yes. Yes. That makes sense to me. So to call it a pastry, it needs to be standalone pastry. Would a donut qualify as a pastry? I would say yes. Sugar. There are two primary divisions of donut. Yeast leavened or chemically leavened with baking powder. Okay, great. Are they pastries?

The ones made with baking powder are a type of quick bread and are more cake-like and denser. So maybe the other one is a pastry? Oh, so the first thing? It's a kind of fried dough confer so maybe the other one is a pastry also the first thing it's a kind of fried dough confectionery is a scone a pastry oh definitely and that's my answer also i just want everybody to know when you look up is a donut a pastry it says the donut is one of the most highly revered american pastries isn't it a scone is like a hard croissant no no it's Scone is like a hard croissant.

No? No, it's... But they're very similar. Is it like a Jewish delicacy? I didn't know scone. My introduction of scones was watching Curb Your Enthusiasm with Larry David. No, because my introduction of scones

was at Caribou Coffee. What? They're in the Midwest and very popular. Are they? Yeah. I don't know. I also, I think of them as...

Well, my dad makes really good Irish soda bread, and I think of that as being so similar to a scone that I'm like- Is a bagel a pastry? That's a topic of debate. I think so. I don't think so.

It's in the cabinet with the rest of them. The definition- A bun-like pastry from the Jewish community of Poland. I don't- A bun-like pastry. Where did you guys think- This was your topic discussion idea. You don't even know what a pastry is?

I think it is expansive expansive and it is subjective. Yeah. So my egg bites could be right in there. Just because one article on Google refers to something as a pastry. We're using that. I'm actually going to go to bat. A bagel is not a pastry. It's a piece of bread.

Is a bread roll a pastry? A dinner roll? Yes. No. They're all pastries. No, that's not. You could find them all at a bakery. Is a piece of toast a pastry?

No. No. It's different. Bread's different because it's the dough we just saw earlier it is the flaky dough that makes a pastry a pastry give me that meme of that with all the equations put it uh put a poll up on the vilefiles instagram is a bagel a pastry okay is a bagel a pastry what wait no you guys each have to take a side and you know you have to bet on something what is the bet how much you want to put on the line lunch lunch a pastry i know i'm gonna win do you really want to do this bet no no i don't want to do this just put like five dollars on it to make it interesting also i want to tread lightly because i realize everybody has different comfort levels with joking around when it comes to religion. But I'm going to say I think it's a little I think I'm the authority on this matter.

Yeah, I do. And I think it's fair to say I'm from the East Coast and I'm Jewish. But according to best bagel, you're going to put the poll up and be like only Jew Jewish people can answer. Jewish voters only. Okay, I'm putting it up on the story now so we were getting really dangerously close to is a hot dog a sandwich we were editing content here like on the edge uh all right what do we got before we get into our updates before we get into our updates someone wrote in

with a little predicament that they're in and we're looking for advice for. So this person writes, Hi, Nick in the household. I would love some third party on advice. And my goal is to change my attitude slash perspective on a situation so that I can move forward. In 2021, my now fiance cheated on me. I was out of town and he kissed a girl that was an old fling of his went out. He picked me up from the airport and confessed everything. He spoke to to my family i made above and beyond efforts to ensure it wouldn't happen again overall we have both moved on and are very happy i've run into this girl he cheated on

me with once she is my fiance's best friend's wife's childhood best friend. What? No. I want to see that again. So my fiance's best friend's wife's childhood best friend. Okay. Sure. An acquaintance. So it's inevitable now that we are invited to the same places, birthday parties, weddings, et cetera. I want to stop feeling anxious and stop allowing this to have an effect on me. I want to be present and comfortable around people I love if she is around.

I've contemplated reaching out to clear the air, but feel it's not my job and kind of wish she had from the get-go. How do I navigate this? Why does she need to clear the air with her? This all falls on him. So does he? Because making out,

I mean, it is cheating. But for all the people who've been cheated on when their partner fucks someone else, you know? Like, oh, if only it had just been a kiss. It's like, what an amateur hour here with the cheating. No, I'm kidding. Listen, I completely understand why she would want nothing to do with this person.

And this person's not part of their inner circle. Yeah, it seems like they'll just be together for bigger and more formal events. Because my guess is if this guy holds a flame to her, that it's probably his friend, his guy friend, and maybe the wife was also a childhood friend. It seems like they probably all maybe grew up together. So it's her fiance's best friend's wife's childhood friend. So if this other couple also grew up together, like fiance, best friend's wife's childhood friend so if this other couple also grew up together like fiance best friend and wife like have a big event like they're gonna invite do

they all know about this that's it doesn't it's not unclear if they all know yeah it's entirely possible you know they got she told she told her friend oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How do you not? Yeah, and he talked it through with the family. So I think he's clearly trying to make the situation right and fix a mistake, not cover up or hide it. Yeah. That's a tough situation. It really is. Because calling her and clearing the air,

I mean, what is she going to say? Also, if you've been able to kind of forgive your fiancé, I mean, your then-boyfriend, now-fiancé, he is more to blame than this other girl is, in my mind. 100%. Yeah.

So if you've been able to move on with him and now get engaged, yeah. Listen, I would be curious if there are any type of couples therapy you know it's entirely possible that she my guess is it wouldn't something like this you know he's like babe i got to confess and he came clean and that's that that's helpful in dealing with these types of stuff is to know that that person because them coming clean is you know really makes you feel like there was that immediate regret and then even though they made that mistake that you there's a level of honesty that they still wanted to maintain in

that relationship make the betrayals there but the honesty it's kind of a gray area of like they didn't really go behind your back or lie about it they they had a moment of weakness which is different than say like you know someone having sex behind your back and then finding out through a third party and yada yada yada so that she has that going for her but my guess is i'd be curious is what they have done to work on this you know other than him coming forward and saying hey babe i did this i fucked up and her being hurt and then talking through it but like really leaning on the fact that he came clean and was up front and then was like you know it was it was a kiss, you know, whatevs kind of thing. And my guess is after that, she just kind of tried to decide to forgive him and kind of push it down rather than discover why that like maybe be willing as a couple, maybe through

couples therapy to lean in to like try to understand why this happened. It seems like the two of them have moved on so do you think are you saying that they have so you're saying that if she has if she is triggered by this woman it is an indication that there's still more for her to work out like in within her relationship possibly it's it's unclear whether they've really worked through it as opposed to just deciding to have moved on because if they let's say he comes clean again hey babe i did this and they have a couple fights and whatever and then as time goes on you just lose the energy to be angry and and again she's leaning on the fact that he came forward and he's super apologetic you could just say hey he fucked up but

you in the back of your mind you don't really know why he did that you can i'm sure he's super apologetic you could just say hey he fucked up but you in the back of your mind you don't really know why he did that you can i'm sure he's i'm sure she asked i'm sure he had some guesses you know as to why but you know sometimes there's deeper rooted issues i don't know and it's a possible that they as a as a as a team as a collective they haven't like sat down with a third party to just really get it out in the open and talk through it as far as her yeah because it sucks because i wouldn't want to like be hanging out with the person that my partner cheated on me with and but like do they make it a you know because it was only a kiss it's like does that whole dynamic group dynamic have to shift it'd be interesting like let's say he fucked her a couple times behind her back i'd be curious is what her expectation

would be she's writing with kind of the mentality of like i should probably be able to get over this right like she's open the idea of kind of powering through. Yeah, I think she feels held back right now in her current state of mind where she feels like she can't control the reaction she has to seeing this person and is looking for a way to navigate these kinds of events where she can just be enjoying time with her close friends.

Yeah, but like, let's say he had sex with her. Yeah. I wonder if she would be like, I'm just not, I refuse to be in the same room with this person yeah that makes sense you know i feel i feel like she'd be more willing to be like if they're going i'm not like it is what it is and that's on in like the fact that it's his best friend's wife's friend that these are more his friends he's a more his group and he fucked that up you know it's just like hey

i'm not the one who so i think she has the right to say i'm just not comfortable i at the end of the day the answer is to communicate with her fiance to say thank you for telling me whatever but this still makes me feel really uncomfortable being in the same room with this person is just it's triggering for me it brings back a lot of bad memories. And I just don't want to be around. His punishment is that he never gets to go to her and say, I need you to take one for the team, so to speak. In every relationship, we have to do things we don't want to do. We have to make compromises. We have to go to family events that we don't want to go to. It's like, oh, the Thanksgiving of your family.

There's things we have to do. And in a loving relationship, you have to both do that. He never gets to ask her to be okay with being in the same room with that girl, regardless of the situation. And I don't think it's her job to get to a point where she is okay with it. And I think she has the right to say, hey, babe, I forgive you. I've moved on. But I'm just not comfortable. And I don't think it's fair to be made to put it in a position where I feel triggered and I need you, my fiance, to go to bat for me. And what I mean by that is like, he should be the one who's not pressuring to be like, oh, well, Tom's got a birthday party and I really want to go. He's got to be like, he's the one

who's got to come up with excuses for his friends why he doesn't want to be around there and you know like he needs to protect her by going out of his way to make her feel like she's not the reason they're missing out on any of these events or parties he's the reason and he needs to take ownership of that and i think he needs to go out of his way to make her feel more secure about that am i I making sense? Yeah. Do you think there's a case in which if she is able to keep going to these events, it doesn't sound like that's happening every weekend. It's more of a special event thing. Do you think over time it'll get easier? I mean, granted, it's been two years at this point. She's saying it happened in 2021.

But maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Like exposure therapy. Almost a little bit. Yeah. If slowly they can just start and again don't you don't need to be friends but yeah it's possible but i'm not it's it's not her

obligation totally and i don't think she should be put in a situation where she feels guilty for saying i'm triggered by this situation or this person and i feel uncomfortable in this setting and i don't want to go and i don't think her fiance is in a position to make her feel bad about that or guilt her or pressure her to just get over it and shit like that or say well it's only it's been two years like that's his cross to bear not hers yeah i wonder if if she is if she freely and willingly wants to go to these events like these are loved ones and she's excited to kind of continue those bonds i wonder if having him have the same briefing of like i'm in an uncomfortable situation because of choices you made and like i'm I'm glad we're moving on, but like there are still lingering impacts and going to the event and

getting that kind of exposure, but also having him kind of like be on call. So it's like, if she gets overwhelmed, like he'll be ready to go. Or like, if she wants to like get some fresh air or like anything at all, just being very like attentive to her needs in the time.

So that way she can slowly, but surely make it less of a thing. Cause I, I felt like I would, after I was cheated on, I would go to this bitch's Instagram like every day and just like look at it and just like think the most like rageful shit. Why? Because she was a pathetic piece of shit and you shouldn't have sex with people when they're drunk. And I was like. Why would you torture yourself by going to her page?

Because I was mad. No, I get you're mad get you're mad i just don't it wasn't healthy like this was not a good thing but this is all to say that like eventually i like stopped doing that because it's like not worthwhile like you know there's a part of me that was like obsessed with like what is she gonna post a fucking story and like it was i don't feel like guys do that is that i feel like women do that i feel like women stalk other women more than men stalk other men i stalk everyone yeah we stalk them all doesn't matter who you are but maybe men don't do much stuff well men do plenty of stalking but um i've had friends tell me like a first name of someone and where they work and i've been able to like find like i found this random swim coach from the YMCA one time for me.

I feel pretty, my sleuthing. Yeah, but we hear a lot of stories of people, callers and women who, who kind of admittedly like, you can say, I'm always looking at my ex's Instagram and you know,

shit like that. I just don't hear a lot of guys or my friend, you know, like, or certainly myself, you know, I've been in love triangles in the past you know when i was younger and i just don't remember like obsessively like

stalking i wonder if part of it definitely not because i always just thought i was better than anyone there's that healthy ego we love something about like knowing though like not in a healthy way but just being like the ambiguity like imagining all of these different things about her i don't know like kind of like feeding the fixation when you're like i'm fixated on this person so i might as well have material i also think part of the stalking thing might come from like a research thing not all of it at all but just part of it i think is like i feel like women generally do a little bit more research before going on dates like googling someone just because of like safety stuff so i wonder if that kind of also further normalizes it or like it makes it kind of like a common practice that has like some

real function in certain times so then it's easier to justify another i mean another option she can just go to these parties and when she runs into her she can only refer to her as homewrecker mistress like lala even like even when she's talking to her only refer to her as homewrecker mistress like lala even like even when she's talking to her friends oh you mean the homewrecker i just feel like we're putting a lot of blame on this woman when the blame needs to be on the fiancee fiancee is to blame for the relationship but the other girl is not without fault i'm not saying that but if we're gonna call her a homewrecker we should be calling him a homewrecker. I mean, whatever.

I mean, she's allowed to hate this girl. Okay. Yeah. I think it would fit, personally, what I think I would try to do is, like, exposure therapy it, and then, like, very early on, like, as soon as I could tolerate, like, make an effort to, when leaving,

be like, say goodbye in a very, like, pleasant way. Like, be nice. Like, say something very like pleasant way like be nice like say something very like civil and nice to her because i think i would take a lot of satisfaction and being like yeah i know you did some shit but i'm still gonna like treat you like a good person and make this like i'm gonna have a lot of fucking like restraint and like grace in this situation to make sure nobody feels weird the best best thing she'd do is not give the girl the satisfaction that it bothers her. Exactly.

But it also... That's easier said than done. It seems like she just really wants this girl to apologize to her. From the line, I've contemplated reaching out to clear the air, but feel it's not my job

and kind of wish she had from the get-go. It seems like she's like, if this girl had just said, hey, I'm sorry, that was kind of fucked. Yeah, but she hasn't and you know i don't know yeah well we our heart goes out to you it's a doozy of a situation if you haven't gone to couples therapy with your fiancee regarding this matter i i highly recommend

that they do that i think if they haven't despite them working through it, there might be some, you know, things they haven't really dove into, you know? And if not, if nothing else, she clearly has insecurities about it and rightfully so. And how she deals with those insecurities, couples therapy can really helpful, not only how she deals with it, but how, you know, like so much of a relationship, right? Is we all can get triggered. We all have insecurities. And at any given time in a relationship, one person or both can be triggered and have some insecurity. And then often in a relationship, some person feels insecure. They react in some sort of way. The other person not being fully aware of their partner being

triggered or being insecure because not a lot of communication then responds to them being triggered. And then you have this kind of snowball effect. Right. And so so much of couples therapy could just simply just being being mindful of when your partner's triggered, knowing how to communicate to your partner when you feel triggered, and then knowing that you two know what to do to help the other person out and stay connected while someone's being triggered you know and if you don't have that tool toolkit so to speak then even though you feel like it's been resolved or dealt with it can often come up in situations like this. Yeah. Maybe that's just such an interesting, like just the phrasing of staying connected when triggered is such an interesting thing to think about.

I mean, I think for couples therapy, that's what it's all about. Anyways, we have a wild, wild update special for y'all. I hope you really enjoy it. If you love these, don't forget, we have two more update specials every month behind Vile Files Plus.

The update of all updates, our wonderful friend who realized that she is a lesbian and is dating a man and was proposed to. That is available behind Vile Files Plus along with many more amazing updates. Thank you guys so much for listening. Again behind Vile Files Plus, along with many more amazing updates.

So thank you guys so much for listening. Again, Vile Files Plus is free to sign up. You get a free seven-day trial, and there's so much amazing, wonderful content, including the two updates that we offer every month, the weekly Better Date Than Never episodes that we drop live on AMP that if you're not available at 9 p.m. Eastern, you can listen at your leisure. We have our pop extra roundup of all the pop culture topics we don't get to talk about on Freestyle or Going Deeper. That and so much more. So check it out if you haven't yet. Just go to vilefiles.com.

And on the home pages, it's a couple clicks away. You can listen to Vile Files Plus the same way you listen to the Vile Files, assuming you don't watch it on YouTube. Oh, and by the way, next week we have Howie Mendel, Lala Kent. It's a wild,

wild week. It's going to be a lot of fun. We're going to ask Howie all about his interview with Tom Sandoval, that and so much more. He's a great guy. He's hilarious. He's a legend. And Lala, obviously, she has so much to say, and everything she says is it's

good. It's good. It's entertaining. It cuts deep, and we love it. Anyways, let's get to our call. Question time with Nick. Let's ask Nick your sexy question. And we love it. Anyways, let's get to our call. Welcome back, Katie. How's it going? Good.

How are you? Doing well. Filling the gaps for me. But last time you called, you had a situation with your trainer or CrossFit coach crossfit coach and ultimately well you fill in the gaps bring us up yeah so we relapsed back he was my a guy i dated then it turned into a situationship broke things off with him relapsed with him and just realized that i was tired of this game and i wanted out and didn't want to get back to that place with him again. And you weren't sure if you should keep going to the gym or handle that situation. You were trying to just kind of be done with him, but you

felt like with your involvement with the gym and you really liked the gym, that it was just kind of complicated because you were, as you said, relapsed a few times. Okay. Let's play a quick clip from the episode to bring our audience up to speed. How's it going? Good. How are you? Good. What's your name? My name is Katie. I'm 29 years old. And I just recently relapsed with my situationhip, who is also my CrossFit coach. We were going on dates and hanging out and talking every day, all day, FaceTiming. We were dating because there was definitely an understanding that we were just seeing each other.

So after about two-ish months, I was like, I need to know what we're doing. Where is this going? And he said he wasn't ready for a relationship, but he still wanted to keep doing what we were doing, basically. And at the time, I had all of this confidence and I was like, no, I'm not an option. Like, I'm not going to sit around and wait for you. And so we broke up the very next day. He's texting me saying he misses me. He wants to be friends. He's used to talking with me all the time. So I am like, okay, like maybe we can be friends. And that's kind of how we slipped back into this really gray area because it wasn't a friendship. It was really inappropriate all the time for months and months and months. Maybe he's telling the truth.

He's not ready for a relationship. Maybe he just needs more time. The whole maybe he's telling the truth about needing more time. Maybe he or she's telling the truth about being busy at work. I'm sure you heard me say a hundred times on the show, they still aren't interested in making you a priority in this moment. It's like you waiting around for what, like how long are you willing to wait around for? So I told him I needed to not, you know, I couldn't be his friend anymore. I couldn't do what we were doing anymore. And he would not give me any space at all.

Like, he would text me. He would come up to me at the gym. He would try to talk to me. You've got to go. I mean, stop going to this CrossFit gym. You can't be that good of a coach. You've got to be honest with yourself, and you've got to take care of yourself,

and it's okay to say, right now, I'm just not in a position to see him and have that not fuck with me a little bit. All right. What was the advice that we gave you and what did you end up doing? Okay. So you, for one, advised me to reread your book, which I did. Did you find that helpful?

I found it super helpful. I listened to it on audio book and reorganized my bathroom cabinet and cleaned out my garage and cleaned up literal clutter in my life and then the mental clutter and emotional clutter that I was dealing with. So it was super helpful on all fronts. And he's blocked now. So he's not communicating with me. But the last month has been a little crazy. He got a little crazy. So you blocked now. So he's not communicating with me. But the last month has been a little crazy.

He got a little crazy. So you blocked him? I did. Okay. And then, yeah, what else besides telling you to read the book that I suggested? You told me to leave the gym and I haven't left the gym. Okay. Yes.

I don't know. It's still up in the air. I am still, he only just got blocked like a week and a half ago maybe okay i hadn't blocked him for like a good month after our podcast because i was trying to set boundaries i was really trying to avoid just all these extreme measures because i thought like i turned i just had my 30th birthday like a month ago he's also 30 I was just like can we just not make this a big deal can we just like can you just hear what I'm saying when I say it's hard and leave me alone when you said that like can we

just not make it a big deal it reminded me of a long time ago when I was going through one of my bad breakups with my first girlfriend. And I stubbornly was like, can we just start over? Can we just like pretend we never dated ever? And can we like go on a first date? It was a bit of a delusional wish I had. You saying that kind of reminded me of that energy. And you're framing it as, well, I don't want to take any extreme steps, you know, block him. I don't want to leave the gym.

I don't see it as extreme. I think what is extreme is you trying not to do the low hanging fruit options that you have to make life so much easier on your mental health and energy. And that is to simply block him, not to get a reaction from him, but to just limit his access to you and limit your having to worry about, is he going to call or not call? Because now that you blocked him, you know that he can't have access to you. Leaving the gym, again, low hanging fruit option of like, I know it's a bit of an inconvenience because you like the gym again low-hanging fruit option of like i know it's a bit of an inconvenience because you like the gym but there are other gyms you can always go back and you can always make friends like it's a fucking gym it's not a fucking country club

or your only place to socialize you know i get that you like it but it's not it's not the end all be all and you stubbornly refusing to block during that period of time and refusing to leave the gym, no doubt caused you to think about it. Every time you go to the gym, it's just like, am I going to see him? What's this going to be like? That is taking up so much mental energy. And yet you're seeing this as like major steps. And I see it as low hanging fruit, like major steps. And I see it as low hanging fruit, you know, to make life easier on you. But you, your narrative is, well, why do we have to be so drastic? Can't we just be friends? Can't we just be cool? Can't you just let me go to the gym and be around you? I don't think you're being realistic with yourself or him. And you're kind of stubbornly trying to hope that, you know, you can just kind of have

your cake and eat it too. And I think you're just in a position right now where you have to make some tough choices for yourself to make just life easier on yourself. Yeah, no, I, I totally agree because I was even one of my friends was like, just block him. Like, why is that such a hard thing for you to do? Like it's, it's draining you. And the day that I ended up, we actually, he wasn't leaving me alone. Like I, I told him like, Hey, this is too hard for me. My feelings for you were too strong. The idea of us slipping back into a friendship and not crossing boundaries, we've already demonstrated that that's not cool. And I don't want to get hurt here. So just please respect that. Like, I can't do this. Like you have to just be my coach and that's it. And he got mad at me and he was like, I told you not to catch feelings.

And I didn't respond. And he literally goes on to text me almost every single day for like a week and a half without response. Like he's just having a conversation with himself in my phone and it's giving me anxiety. Cause I never know, like when I get a notification, is he going to be mad at me? Is he going to try to guilt me into talking to him? Is he going to try to bring up like old memories to like bait me into having a conversation with him? But, and then he tried calling me and I, even I had to like I looked at myself in the mirror one day and I was like you look so tired and you're tired because this guy is just like reaching off of you and so I had one final conversation with him I was like this is not a friendship like this is a fucked up relationship like you need to stop like the kiss stirred up all these feelings with me again.

I told you I wouldn't catch feelings, but I also told you if I did catch feelings, I'd leave you alone, which is what I'm trying to do. Like, this is too hard for me. And I feel like you take advantage of my feelings because you know, they're there and you have this to them when it's convenient for you. And he got so mad at me and he was like, don't you dare blame me. And he was like, control your feelings. And I was like, I think I am controlling my feelings because I'm the one that's trying to take a step back. Like I'm the one I'm not texting you relentlessly. I'm not asking for a relationship. I'm acknowledging that you don't want one and like, okay, but please like leave me be. And then I blocked him because he kept texting me like nothing happened and that's the delusional part of it i'm like you are so confusing do you not understand

that the constant chase and a constant push makes me think you want me like do you not get that like i don't know what you want from me but like it just feels like this stupid like fucked up game of like relationship jumanji and I want out of it so bad. Just as guilty of playing the game. I know I've been playing the game for a year. You know, we could probably go have a whole episode about feelings and like, you know, you can try to feel a certain way, but how we feel is how we feel. I don't think we can control our feelings.

I do think we can control how we respond to our feelings, you know, and how you're responding to your feelings. I think is I think you're responding to your feelings poorly. I think so is he. But again, you are stubbornly trying to still have a relationship with this guy. Well, up prior to you blocking him you you were yeah and again if you still if you still keep going to this gym like what's the block you're still getting him access to you i know he's not there all the time but now you're gonna have to best case scenario every time you go to this gym you're gonna have to like exhaust your mental energy

to try to figure out if he's going to be there or not. And that's you still investing in him. And that's still you thinking about him. So just go to a new fucking gym for a while and just know that he won't be there. And eventually when you're really over it, you can go back to this gym. This gym, it's a CrossFit gym. They're everywhere. You can find someone relatively just as close and you can find new people you enjoy hanging out with. There's no way that this gym is so great. I think you're addicted to the gym because you're addicted to him. I wish he would leave the gym. Well, he's not going to.

I know. And I wish I could keep my gym because I've been there and a lot of my best friends go there. So ask your best friend for a favor as a friend to say, I really could use this. Would you be willing to switch with me? Maybe they won't. Well, her husband is co-owner, so I don't think she's going to leave with me. He's going to leave with me. Well, yeah. I just think until you fully remove access from him and allow yourself to heal, this is going to keep sucking your mental energy. And you will never be fully free of this guy until you allow yourself to heal.

And I don't think you're going to fully heal until you cannot have to think about him for an extended period of time. And you going to this gym makes you think about him. And it sucks. It's so sucks that you have this community. You have this place that like you feel such a strong like pull towards that you feel safe at that is just like a source of joy in your life. It's so disappointing that like that feels inaccessible right now and i think kind of what nick's saying is like it's just like sometimes it's not about doing what's like easy or hard because it is really hard to leave the gym and it's easier to keep going there but it's about doing like simple versus complicated and like staying there is making your life so complicated at a cost to being at the gym too like you said every time your phone

goes off you don't know if he's mad or if he's happy or whatever. Like that's an emotional roller coaster. And he acts like I didn't tell him to stay away. So I do understand. And I, I do see it. And I, I'm, I'm being stubborn. Like I know I am. I don't want to let this go because I feel like, why do I have to give it up? I'm not trying to minimize the inconvenience that it is to leave this gym or the disappointment. I'm not saying that, but I just think overall, it will be much easier on your mental health. It'll allow you to heal. And everyone gets different things from going to a gym, but like, just make the gym about you and not, you know, you can still hang out with this friend and for drinks afterwards. And like, even though her husband's co-owner of this CrossFit gym, it's still not out of the world for her to still go to it.

Like she's not going to another gym for a workout. She's going to another gym to support her friend who feels uncomfortable at this gym. And if she's really married to the co-owner of the, and if this guy's this bad. He would go too. Like they are so on my side about, they would,

they, yeah, no, that wouldn't be an issue. They wouldn't. You guys, I think you just, you need to stop making excuses. It's not about fairness. It's not about, you know, right or wrong. It just is just about you stop sucking the energy and giving him so much of your energy. You are still giving him so much of your energy. You've gotten better.

You've made some progress. It's great that you blocked him. But until you fully stop giving him access to you, he still has access to you. And you going to that gym very much gives him access to you. All blocking him is going to create is an opportunity for him to make some passive aggressive dig or make you feel bad about the choice you made to set that boundary. All you gave him is a talking point. didn't remove access when you put it like that because i think when we also left our call it seems like we were talking about this a lot about how like on principle it feels so fucked up and wrong that you should have to leave this space that's such an important place for you but it seems like we kind of reached a point where it was like yeah i do just need to set

myself up to succeed and not be torturing myself. And I'm curious, like since in the time since then, like you haven't stopped going to the gym, what has been the biggest roadblock for you or what's been the biggest thing that your brain has said that's prevented you from just walking away for a little bit? I think it's because like I didn't tell you guys this. I was married and divorced and I met my ex-husband at a gym. Like history is repeating itself. I had to leave that gym for a while because it was getting so exhausting for me to be in a place that had so many memories and good, bad, whatever. It was just, it got to a point where like I would go in and I felt sick. Like it wasn't healthy for me. Maybe there Maybe this is the stubborn part of me. I'm not going to let that happen again. I can be stronger than that. This wasn't a marriage. This was barely a

relationship. I think you're being too hard on yourself. And also, I think you're looking at it incorrectly. I think you should look at it where, hey, I got over this before. And all I had to do is I left a gym. And you know what I also did? I found a new gym I liked. It turned out to also include a shitty guy. But the point is you found a different gym you enjoyed. A gym that you enjoyed so much, you're having a hard time leaving this gym. It just goes to show there's plenty of gyms that you can enjoy.

I think this is you being stubborn and justifying your stubbornness by saying, well, I'm not gonna let myself do this again. Do what? Like you had to heal from a divorce. Divorce is very difficult to heal from. And you did what you had to do to heal from. Like, what did you do wrong? You're judging yourself for something you had to do to heal. Why are you seeing it as a bad thing? You know, it's like the thing that you had to do to get yourself in the right place to start dating again you're now criticizing why and i'm sure you're really like you feel so like freaking triggered

by this situation like and i'm sure you're just like determined to get over this situation and to not let the triggers win but like it will be triggering to join a new gym but it will be triggers that you can like control your exposure to and And I feel like that's the way that like I've found that I tend to grow is when like I can like temper the amount that I'm being triggered. So it's like eking it like slowly but surely. And so just knowing that like your goal to come out the other side of this, like feeling like you are stronger than this and like feeling a sense of like confidence in your willpower, like you can still achieve that. Also, I feel like sometimes you're forgetting that you're while you might be triggered, you're also swapping out other stresses and triggers that you're currently dealing with. It's not like you're like, why do I have to leave this gym? It's so

frustrating. I have to do this again. And you have a perfect situation there. Like while it's a lot of work and you don't want to leave and find a new gym, you're not going to have him coming up to you every day. You're not going to be questioning what mood he's in. You're not going to be like dealing with his flirts or him being aggressive. Like, yeah, it's going to be a little bit of legwork and probably triggering and hard. But once you get there and you're established, you won't be dealing with him anymore. And I think you'll be really grateful that you did. When it comes to your past, like learning from your past, you had this divorce, you

got over it, right? And I completely relate to wanting to handle a breakup better than last time so yeah after okay i had my first relationship off and on last seven years and then i got my second girlfriend where we got engaged and broke up found she found out she cheated on me right and i do remember when i was going through that and i was devastated about you know the end of an engagement and finally I got cheated on. I definitely had some like active thoughts of like wanting to handle this breakup

better than I did previous breakups. And past breakups, I remember sulking constantly. I remember like just constantly, like not trying to get over it, living in my pain. And every time I would go out with my friends, I would just be a Debbie Downer. I would be insufferable to be around. I remember thinking that didn't work for me. That didn't help me get over her. It pushed my friends away, et cetera, et cetera. So I

definitely tried to change that. So I told myself, all right, well, I'm really hurting now. I don't think I can control my feelings or my thoughts. So what did I do? I was just like, I'm just, I lived with Phyllis and I just hung out with Phyllis. I kind of just went off the grid for a month. I was like, I just, I know I can't go out right now and put on a good face. So I'm just not going to try. But after about four or five weeks, I started to get in a better headspace. And then I told myself, well, when I do go out, I'm going to, and people ask, how are you doing? I'm going to fake it till I make it. I'm great. I'm not going to go out to the bars and hang out with my friends to just like talk their ear off and talk about how sad I am. Because when I talk about how sad I am, I'm just putting my emotional energy into that relationship that's over.

So learn from past things that didn't work in the past, but don't like dismiss the things that worked. When you think about how you got over your divorce, think about the things that you did that actually worked, that actually helped you get over that divorce, that actually helped you make you feel good about yourself, that made you feel empowered, that made you feel like you could do this. Replicate those things. Think about the things that didn't work, the things that got you stuck, the things that made you stay in these kind of emotional head spaces that made you pine in these kind of emotional head spaces that made you pine over something that you lost. That's what you want to change. But you're judging the very thing that worked for you and you're refusing to replicate that. And probably putting

the same pressure of like, I feel like there's probably pressure in being like, I want to handle this better because I'm redeeming myself from my divorce. And so like you're putting not only the pressure of like this situationship that's been super taxing, but like also the pressure of like your past marriage. And that's so much. No, that's a super, that's a super good point. I have been judging the way I got over my divorce, but I got over it by removing myself from situations

that reminded me of it. Yeah. Because I couldn't think of my ex-husband in a space that he's never set foot in there you go totally and you can always once you're healed then you can test the waters and see if you're able to because i have gone back to my other gym from time to time because i'm super close with my coach over there a different sport different sport not crossfit but i've done that and i can walk into that gym now and not, that's so. Yeah. Because you're obsessed with this other guy and you don't give a shit about

your ex. Yeah. But as why, you know, so you need to recognize that until you're healed over something, you're just, you're scratching the wound. You're picking off the scab.

You just keep picking it off. And that's why it's never healing. And that's why you can go back to the other gym now because you finally let it healed. And now when you, there's nothing to scratch off, there's no wound to open and back up. That's it. Exactly. I'm a genius. No, you are. That's like, nobody's ever, I can't like, I know my sister and my best friend, they love me, but I know they are so tired of this.

I hear you. You know, I've exhausted lots of friends. So I feel for you. And they have said things that have given me epiphanies for like a week or two. And then I like can't seem to hold onto it long enough for it to take effect. Well, you ignored my advice too. I know. It's okay. Baby steps. I mean, no judgment. I've been there. I've been you. I was just going to say, like, you seem like someone who is like very high achieving, competitive, like gets shit done. Like, let's give yourself like a deadline. I'm like, so you can be competitive with yourself being like, this is the day that I'm going to do this hard thing by. Like, this is the day by which I am going to say I'm taking a pause from this gym. You can start 30, 60, 90 days, whatever feels manageable to actually get

you out of that gym for now and into another one. What do you think is a realistic timeline for that? That's going to hold you accountable probably a little bit before you're ready, but that isn't going to feel futile and like, oh, I'll never do it. Well, I stupidly signed up for a competition with girls from my gym and it's in May and we already paid for it. And I would feel, I mean, I don't know if that would be an excuse of like ducking out because they had been trying to find a third person. I mean, if all you do is this competition, fine. You can still leave the gym and do that one competition. Maybe you interact with them and you have a bad day,

I don't know, but you could still not bail on your friends and still overall take the advice of removing yourself from the gym. At the end of the day, you're just really good at convincing yourself of the things that you want to do. And you're really good at judging yourself

even if those things are helping you out. And choosing familiar pain over unknown pain and you are choosing not to get over this at some level and so you just have to ask yourself am i actually am i that exhausted and being this competitive probably overachieving person that part of you is that stubborn person who thinks that they can figure this out. You can problem solve this into getting what you want. And I know the feeling, you know, it's that same disillusioned feeling of like, well, let's just pretend that we never met and start dating again. And we'll just get it all right this time. Just like, you're like, why can't we just do whatever

it is that you think that you want to do? And you're like, I'll just figure it out. I just haven't figured it out yet. And I will figure it out. So I just have to keep figuring it out. And that's what you're doing. That's it. That's it. Exactly. I just keep thinking there's just something I haven't realized yet that's going to fix it, but I'm not fixing it. And it's like the definition of insanity is, or yeah, it's doing the same thing over and over again. And this guy, to everyone listening and everyone in this room sounds like real bad news. And sounds like a guy who is a bit manipulative and a bit gaslighty and a bit just kind of couldn't deserve you less yeah so makes you feel bad about yourself and tells you that you're wrong to feel the way you do like

we hate him so um you're you're spending a lot of emotional energy on someone that doesn't deserve that emotional energy. So help yourself. The biggest takeaway is stop judging yourself for the things that actually helped you and actually worked. If they worked, they're good. If they're not, they're not.

And how they look or what you think is the standard or whatever you imagine for yourself is meaningless. Did it work or did it not work? Replicate the things that worked and get rid of the things that didn't and for this competition you can train somewhere else participate in it in may correct yeah yeah no i i can okay i mean we're like representing the gym so that's fine even if you go and do it with them sometimes so long as you're in a group you're're there for that purpose. You're not like there by yourself. You say to the girls, hey, listen, I just need to do this for me. It's my mental health. I don't like if you want to come to me, but I don't need you to come. I'm good. Don't be the martyr. Stand strong in your conviction to, you know, you're fine. You don't, if you want to invite your girlfriends to join at this other gym, but you don't have to pout and be like, oh, nowhere to go in a month no you're good like i'm fine i already have another friend from a different gym who's been like counting me to come to hers so okay text her yes text her now options i do have

options it's yeah you clearly just have not been interested in those options because you've been stubbornly trying to figure it out i'm gonna email you in a week please oh boy in that week i want to hear that you have made concrete moves like not just it obviously the mental work is important but like i want to hear that you've texted this friend who's at another gym to say like hey like look into like a short term membership there i want to or that you've told your gym like giving them notice like in a week like all of that can happen in a week like hold yourself accountable to like all right we're gonna follow up oh boy i'm gonna hound you because we know you can do it yeah i've uh you've heard me say this other callers at this point it's 100 your fault as far as i'm concerned you don't get to complain about him anymore you don't get to complain to me

about anything he's doing because we don't, we have no expectations of him other than that he's going to do shitty things. And you know that he has shown you that pattern and you have every opportunity to get rid of any access he has to you. And if he has access to you, it's your fault. And things that he is doing that make you feel shitty or getting your head at this point is your fault no it is i have to take accountability because then i'm just a victim and i i don't want to you're not a victim here no i played my part so i need to play my part in getting out of it too yeah and show up for yourself i've been you before so no judgment but you gotta real you're uh you really need some tough love. Yeah. No, I

do. I do. All right. All right. Keep us posted. Good luck. We're believing you. Thank you. All right. Bye-bye. Hold on to your kilts, dearies. Peacock original The Traitors is back with a new season of strategy, betrayal,

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No matter what moves you made last year, TurboTax experts make them count. Did you say no to a big wedding and a lope at the county courthouse? Well, that's a move. Did you go back to school and get your degree? That is a move. Did you relocate for a fresh start? That is literally a move. Maybe you moved into a houseboat instead of a house house or switched gears from rideshare driving to video game streaming or rode the stock market to the moon and back. make all your moves count, getting you every credit and deduction you deserve. Filing with 100% accuracy and getting your max refund guaranteed. Switch to TurboTax, make your moves, we'll make them count. See guarantee details at TurboTax.com slash guarantees. Experts only available with TurboTax Live. Okay, so we have a written update from episode 540. If you remember our friend Katie

who said, help, my mom is running some of my dating apps. Oh, yeah. I met her. I met the mom at the book signing. Wild.

Wild stuff. Great. Yeah. Your advice to her had been kind of, you know, if this is a fun thing and a bonding experience,

that's great. But also she doesn't get to kind of insert her opinions on who you date. So we have a little update dear household i first want to say i think it was amazing that you guys were able to meet my mom at nick's book signing at the grove i hope you were able to get a glimpse of what i

mean by jewish mother i am also happy to report ever since we spoke she got off my dating apps right away i wish i was writing in with an update about how i met someone but unfortunately that's not the case. I'm still out there on the dating apps. I've been on more dates than I can count, but I haven't met the person that I want to spend more time with yet. Really trying to emphasize on that yet, lol, it's hard to not let it get to me sometimes. I keep reminding myself of what Nick wrote in his book, that I'm trying to find the one, and that it can take some time. I also want to mention, I took Nick's dating prompt advice that he wrote in his book. He advised to put this on your dating profile. If you like my face,

then buy me a drink so I can figure out whether or not I like your personality and give you a chance to like mine, which I definitely did because let's be real, I do whatever he says if it'll help me find the one. And it has been such a hit. So many guys responded to it. So I think it should go on everyone's dating profile. Hope to hear from you guys soon. Love that. All right, everyone listen and go ahead and update that dating bio. Yeah.

What is it again? If you like my face, then buy me a drink so I can figure out whether or not I like your personality and give you a chance to like mine. I came up with that during questions with Nick and someone's like, quick, help me write my dating bio. And I just came up with that. And then Nick and someone's like quick help me write my dating bio and I just came up with that and then I put it in the book. Genius. People see it. Yeah.

It has a level of confidence sassiness but also like duh. It's like yeah. Let's get off the apps. And then let's keep it real. Do you like my face or not? Yes or no? It's a simple question. Immediately let's find out if

now I want to see if I like your personality Amazing Anyways congrats Thanks for the update You're on your way Glad to see that that's a big hit Your mom is a lovely person Welcome back Debbie

Thank you I'm excited to be here Yeah excited to have you back So last time we spoke you uh uh you were had a great date if i remember correctly it was like a friend a co-worker friend or something like that a fun hangout at a basketball game yeah it's a basketball game a little make out and you get a little make out and he was great. But then afterwards, he sent some over the top texts that kind of gave you the ick, if I remember correctly. For anyone who wants to listen back, this was episode 545, Going Deeper with Francesca

Farago. Yeah, let's play a quick clip of that call to bring people up to speed. My name is Debbie. Hi, Debbie. How old are you? I'm 27 years old and I was recently at a basketball game met my friend's co-worker and i received the most unhinged text that i have no clue how to respond to um he was 14 years older than me so he was 40 um dead i'm 27 yeah so we actually made out in a boxy um at the at the game this gentleman wrote you hi debbie

hope your night was good it was great seeing you yesterday not boring at all despite our signs there was some kind of connection maybe opposites do attract the chemistry and sparks were definitely there honesty and transparency dot dot, dot, dot. You are gorgeous and I'm attracted to you. You have a hot figure, pretty face, and the sexiest eyes. He did use an Oxford comma. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Hot figure. Hmm. Okay. Okay. Sounds like an accountant. Sounds like a 50-year-old. Yeah, it sounds like he's 75. Okay. Sounds like an accountant. Sounds like a 50-year-old. Yeah, it sounds like he's 75. Yeah.

When you are interested in a passionate tryst or romance and to experience all the touch and affirmation, I'm here for that. Dot, dot, dot. I want you. In a separate text. The way you're reading is so funny. Hit me up anytime.

I'd love to see you again, whether for a day or more regularly. Enjoy the weekend. Actually, like I added in the, he had no exclamation point. Yeah, there's no. Enjoy the weekend. It's a little intense. It's more weird than unhinged in my book. Yeah, age is something.

He's just a little awkward. Calm out of the blue, facetime him with high energy like hey how's it going what's going on like sorry i've been kind of busy the past couple days like by the way like i had a really nice time with you at the game that was a lot of fun i haven't had a time like that in a while like that was great like that's how you open up and then you're just kind of like i i do want to discuss your text for a second. And again, playfully, and just be like, what was up with? That was a lot.

You sent me a lot. And then you just kind of playfully be like, all right. And by the way, my most curious, like, what did you mean by this? I don't, I didn't eat. I don't even know what a tryst is. And like, just see where he goes with that. I think it could be fun. Debbie, fill us, fill us in with anything we missed from, missed from the previous call just to bring our audience up to speed.

Yeah. So I was at a basketball game at my friend's event. And there was this coworker I found really attractive. And we had this mutual attraction. And we ended up making out in the box seat. the box seat but then after the fact we exchanged numbers and i received the slew of messages um the next day that were over the top like you said and gave me the it and i was wondering if i should respond to him or what i should do since we did have this really heavy chemistry and these texts really threw me off and i believe we kind of told you to like maybe not necessarily cancel him quite yet and to respond but maybe just kind of call him out or and playfully call him out

on kind of the over topness of the text is that accurate accurate? Yes. You guys told me to actually FaceTime him like directly and just get a sense of, you know, where he's at and actually talk to him instead of texting because texting sucks. All right. So what did you end up doing? So I know you and Francesco were saying how it was not a red flag that he hasn't responded since the slew of messages. But in fact, he did respond since then and didn't know actually was going on a trip out of the country with my sister it's on like a sister vacation and he knew that somehow and that kind of freaked me out so I ended up not facetiming him so he hit you up in between when you called and we talked and and was like i know you're leaving the country

yeah basically how did he know how did he know i mean my friend i mean it's like her co-worker so i'm sure they talk okay so it's not that creepy i'm sure he was like i haven't seen her she hasn't responded my text and the co-worker friend was like oh she's busy she's going to paris with her sister etc true like i think there's a way for this to come up organically in conversation that is not she's been packing for four weeks anyways nevertheless it creeped you out yeah it creeps me out but so i did want to be playful i did like want to take your advice on you know trying to get a sense of it's like you know legit or kind of like just fun on his end like i wanted to get a tone so i responded back asking him what a tryst was to be like genuinely to see what he would say to that

because i thought that was kind of funny like sure what is a tryst like we did talk about that from your last was it just what is a tryst without an exclamation point or an emoji or was it like what is a tryst ha ha ha ha ha because like what is a tryst could be like you're stupid you know what the fuck well how did you say it i just said what is a tryst question mark oh and he yeah i know that kind of butchered it but he did respond and i did find out what a tryst was and from his point of. Which was, for all of us? A private romantic rendezvous. So he, it's, yeah, it's like the standard definition.

He copied and pasted from Webster's. I assume that's what he meant. Yeah. And then what happened? Where did it go from there? Yeah, so then he asked how the trip was and it was like very small talk. But anyways, he's kind of like game over,

no pun intended, basketball. Like it's kind of like game over no pun intended basketball like it's kind of over with that one okay we do have a new development we moved on we fired him okay we have someone new we've moved on okay um well we have a couple people what's the most prominent like details for each of them yeah so since then i was back on the app which i hate but i went on a date with this guy a few times um and i really liked him we went on a few dates we actually went to this place called better than sex dessert in west hollywood okay is it good um it is good really good desserts it is better than sex. Spoiler alert. Okay. But we did go there and they give you interactive iPads so you can really get to know each other like on a deeper level over dessert.

It's a really fun date spot. Really? I highly recommend. There's nudes. There's like boudoir photos. Yes. I went once with my good friend Tanner. Do you recommend?

Should I go? It was a really funny place to go with like a platonic meal. Should we all go? What if Natalie and I went? I think you guys would love it. Okay. Alright. Anyway, so you had a fun date with dessert and prompts. I like this place. Sounds fun. It's really great.

And we were getting to know each other on like a deeper level. They ask you really intimate questions like about your goals but also about like you know like romantic things as well like more intimate questions saucy such as such as like what like what turns you on kind of like those really like starter kind of questions um that's a heavy question for a first date well they give you an ipad that has a bunch of like that has a whole list of questions so you can kind of like pick and choose be like are we going to talk about like a memorable vacation or like my deepest

fantasy okay so you get topics you can drill down from there so this date you guys were eating dessert asking questions and it went well sounds like it was going it was going really well and i was getting no red flag which is kind of like until it was scary it was scary for me to get no red flag so then he went to the bathroom and then as i do i went to go on it i went into hinge profile because we're still match we matched on hinge originally and to see if he's any like updates on it while we were seeing each other this um and he updated one of his pictures to a picture i took of him which is so I know he's like active on there. So I saw that.

That's crazy. Yeah, no, it was kind of nuts. It was a good picture. And like, I did tell him that, whatever, but I was kind of like. How did you approach that? I don't think it's that big of a deal, but how did you approach it?

I think it's something you can have fun with. It's like, hey, I really enjoy your new hinge profile picture that I took. I mean, you're not a couple, you know? But these are important situations, I think, in dating. Truly, I think this is a great example that you brought up. Because this is an example of something that would piss you off that you would also do. Like, if you're out there dating, using the apps, regardless of someone else, whoever took the good picture, you know, some guy you went on a date with took a good picture of you. You'd be like, all right, well, I'm not

going to not put it up if I really liked the picture. Not to mention guys do not have a lot of great pictures of them. So the, of themselves. So until you're like exclusive or off the market or having some sort of conversation about like getting off the apps, like it's totally fair game and it shouldn't make you mad. If nothing else, it is a fun opportunity to tease them a little bit

and have a conversation around that. It's a good opener. I don't see it as a red flag. I see it as like a fun opportunity to like bring it up and and see how he handles it but without you interrogating him and i was like i just noticed i'm a really good photographer i really uh hope it uh hope it lands you some dates but you do it in a playful fun way and he should respond playfully and fun it's a great opportunity to see if he gets triggered

or defensive stuff like this i think happens all the time in dating and i think It's a great opportunity to see if he gets triggered or defensive. Stuff like this, I think happens all the time in dating. And I think a lot of people are very hypocritical. They'll get very offended or upset about like, oh my God, he used the picture I took of him on his dating app. I'm like, you guys have been on one date. He owes you nothing. And you owe him nothing. And it's not like you didn't go on a one date and immediately get off the apps and not update a profile picture. It's like when we go on a date, we want that person across the table to act as if we're completely off the market until they vet us out. It's just like we expect this kind of loyalty and we don't want to think they're dating or talking to other people. They're solely focused on getting to know us

until they've figured out whether they want to date us or not. And that'd be great. I think more people in the dating community and on the app should do that. I do think they should be more intentional with the people. Once they match and go on a date with someone, it would be great if they really prioritize that people, but that's not what anyone is doing, including you. You want to talk to me about two different guys you know so it's just a perspective there that's fair

but i definitely felt like it's kind of a punch in the stomach you know just to see your picture i would be pissed i would be like already like it's i i'm not saying he can't ever put the photo pissed yeah i'd be like fuck you dude are you just like come on like it's i i'm not saying he can't ever put the photo pissed yeah i'd be like fuck you dude are you just like come on like it's one thing if you want to use the photo later if you i wouldn't do that if someone took a picture of me i would not put it on the dating house while we were still matched early into getting to know them i'd wait until it like it'd run his course i don't think it's a big deal i'm with you debbie so that's one person is that the end of the story no there's more to the story okay okay shoot but then there's another finish

finish that so what did you do like how did you address it well in my head i kind of just knew that going into it i kind of put a wall up with that i didn't mention it yet but then i saw another so you made it a big deal in your head in my head i made it a big deal but then so then i i saw him again though and then the next date he got me flowers which was actually cute and you know like a cute gesture a little over the top maybe not as bad as basketball guy oh debbie i think i think you're you're I feel like having gotten to know you a little bit that you are taking everything he does or any any every date that you do you are critiquing every little thing every interaction everything he says it's like is this a big deal or is this not a big deal like

most of the things don't have they don't have to be a big deal or like it's just a big deal like most of the things don't have they don't have to be a big deal or like it's just you know like i think you're i think you just got to breathe a little bit take a step back and just assess him after three dates you're assessing in real time after every interaction he goes to the bathroom and you literally looked for a red flag. Why are you going on his Hinge profile in the middle of a date? You're looking for issues and you're critiquing everything someone says or does. Like go on, match with someone, go on three or four dates, enjoy yourself, be present. And then after two or three or four dates, then take some time to yourself. four dates, then take some time to yourself. Sit down with a friend and think about the three or four dates as a whole and how you feel about that person and how they made you feel. Stop dissecting

every little thing they say or do in real time. You're never going to, I want to say, you're never going to find someone if you keep doing that. You're just going to like, you're going to freak yourself out or freak them out. And you're never really going to get to know someone because no one's perfect. And you're meeting strangers in awkward environments. And, you know, you're expecting everyone to be their absolute best self. And I don't think you are, you know, I get why you and Amanda feel the way you do. And I'm not saying you're crazy for being upset, but I do think there's a bit of a hypocrisy, you know,

and what you, we expect for ourselves and what we expect from the people we date. So let's talk about the guy. Number two person. That's fair. By the way, I agree with you. I am in therapy for this.

Yeah. So, um, no, I mean the current situation, it's actually not a guy that I'm seeing. Oh, okay. Yeah.

So I'm actually seeing a woman in this new update. And it's just kind of a different scenario where I'm not getting any red flags like this. It's like a different experience for me. Do you find yourself to be less like we just talked about with the women you date versus the men you date absolutely okay interesting why do you think that is um i think part of it just like societal pressure maybe like just you think you just trust women more than you trust men probably and then also just like i don't like the show like The Bachelor even like makes it sound to be like a fairy tale at the end which it never turns out to be

but I think just like heterosexual relationships are meant to be more of like this perfect thing whereas like women accept each other's flaws more if that makes sense I mean I hear what you're saying

I mean I think i think that's a narrative you've told yourself more than i mean who who in society has told you this i mean i get watching movies or whatever but i think just just that like watching movies and like pop culture and things like that sure and i listen i get it you know like society this and society that but as adults you know we are in charge of the narrative we tell ourselves you know i i just think it's a bit of a an excuse or a scapegoat to blame societal pressures well you know i get i think to a certain extent but you're in charge of yourself and how you see the world. And you're clearly a smart, intelligent person who can look at each situation for what it is.

Right. And you have the ability to say, well, that's a movie. It's not reality. And that's not my life. And you know what I'm saying? So I totally get why you can see the situations differently, but you have the agency to have similar expectations for yourself with regardless of who you're dating. And while I can understand the urge or the ease that you might have with one gender over the other,

because there's a comfort level, you know, as a woman, you're, I could make sense why you're comfortable around women. And, you know, as guys and you know as guys you know like you know when i'm as a heterosexual male like as in the dating world there's a lot of

times like i don't i don't i don't get women you know like and i'm sure a lot of heterosexual women are like i don't get men and there's a natural disconnect but in terms of you're talking about pressure that you've applied to yourself in these situations and i i feel like you know you can you can try and work to get out of your head if i'm making any sense no you are but i think what's difficult for me is like with men like i don't know there was like getting flowers and that slew of messages and i feel like it's easier for me to get validation from men than women totally it's easier to get validation well i think to speak to like my experience dating men and women like i think the way that i've been like conditioned to receive validation for men is just like informs all my relationships with them and

then i think with women what do you mean i think the fact that the way that there's like a certain kind of like societal safety and power in dating a man and like, you know, in a society that's like based on a family unit where it's like the couples are like that is like, I don't know, the epitome of like strength and like familial life in just the sense of, I don't know, just men having more power to validate versus and like kind of just like growing up seeking their validation and being conditioned in that way. And then with women, I just find that I don't have the same narratives around like impressing someone at what it means for them to choose me and the way that I do like have a lot of internalized narratives about what

it means for a man to choose me. Do you feel like it feels like a little bit more like equal? No, I think it's just like there's like conditioning about like men and what it means for like a man to express interest. And also, if that's like I don't know if this really like that resonates, Debbie, but like I think because I dated a lot of men before I started dating women, like I knew what I was doing. Like intimacy wise, I felt like there was just a lot more of like, oh, this is like charted territory. And then I found- I totally get the comfort level that you would have with women over men.

I guess I don't understand. Like Debbie, you talked about, oh, he went to the bathroom. I checked his hinge profile, used the picture, ick. The next day got me flowers, ick. It's just like, which one do you want? Do you want the guy who like seems a little like shady because he's out there still dating

while he's investing in you? Or do you want the guy who's like, you know what? I had a really nice couple of dates with this person. I really, I think I like her. I want to do something that shows that like, hey, this is going well. I want to take the initiative. I want to, you know, we hear from all these, you know, people dating and we hear from a lot of women who, you know, imply or even say flat out that like a lot of guys out there are just kind of lazy these days. They're not

taking the initiative. You know, they go on a couple of dates and they're just kind of expecting sex and they're not really doing the flowers or planning the dates or, you know, showing that they have this interest. And I'm just why can't we why is why is society telling us that's more complicated than it needs to be? Because I feel like like Amanda was saying, I totally I totally am with you on this. Like, I feel like there's like gender roles that we have like with men it's like a power dynamic like I need to be doing like something for the other person whereas like in a same-sex relationship it's like kind of mixed who does those small things so you don't really have that validation if that makes sense it's like i guess to build on that it's like men are the person like

nick this is over your head no i just i don't i get that dating women and dating men is different yeah but why why is validation well also you said validation from men is easier i think it's more simple for me i don't know if you're referring to it it's more simple Why is validation? Well, also, you said validation for men is easier. I think it's more simple for me. I don't know if you're referring to me saying that. Yeah, it's more simple. Easier was the wrong word. It's more simple. It's more like black and white, I will say.

But you're suggesting that you are more in your head when you date men than with women, if I'm understanding correctly. They're probably in your head about different things. Different things. But also, the gestures feel like more of an ick because it's this big thing whereas like with women it's like they say like oh i like you like that's like a cute thing to say whereas like men have to do this whole like big like gesture like getting me flowers like but that's what i'm like it seems like this is you know when you guys are talking societal pressures everything you're saying is like an opinion you

have about men or a perception that you have about men and as a guy i'm thinking well geez i didn't realize like oh i just i just want to get her flowers like you you seem very critical of the men that you're dating and you seem very critical of every little thing they do or say and i am just wondering why are you so critical of the men that you're dating and you seem to be less critical of the women you're dating and i other than i get that as a woman you are more familiar with women but like what is it about dating men that's made you so critical of of things can i reframe that question for you debbie as like stuff that like more triggered or like there's like more stuff comes up because i think critical makes

it sound like it's this conscious choice of being like i'm gonna be like poo poo to men and be so like going through nitpicking anything they do and with women i don't think debbie's giving off that vibe i mean she's she's, she, through her, sorry, we're like talking about you while you're right here. But like, you just kind of told the story about how you did the, you know, he went to the bathroom and then the flowers. And it wasn't like, you didn't give me a vibe

that like you have this kind of angst about men at all. Like, I don't get any vibe from you that you have a negative opinion of men. It just almost sounded like you don't realize that you were doing it. You were just telling a story. It's like, he went to the bathroom. I did this. He got me flowers. I thought this. And I'm thinking, wait, why are we so nitpicky about these interactions? And then you kind of mentioned the woman you're dating where it's like, yeah, it sounded like you don't do that type of stuff and i'm just wondering how can we channel that energy you have with dating women to dating men i guess is the biggest question or i think the the goal for you because

to me it sounds like yeah it's all internal from you it's it's just how you see it and i just want to change how you see it i think like past experiences affect it too right like on dating apps like a lot of men just like reach out all the time with these novels and these pickup lines and make it this whole big thing on it's like a game for them i feel like um whereas women really get to the point and get to the core at the first date even get to know the person um i guess it's better communicate yeah i mean i feel like you know there's a better rapport and so there's better communication and maybe women are just are a lot of women i don't know the stats but if you told me that women women are better communicators i wouldn't put up much of a

fight about that maybe there's that you know but i just think overall like you're still applying past experiences with men or societal standards and i i just feel like you're setting yourself up for failure when you date men by by inserting certain narratives in your head that i don't know apply to all these guys that you're dating and you know stereotypes might be true but on an individual level if you're applying every stereotype that you have in your mind when you meet someone you're you're selling that person short again not trying to speak for you so for me like i think i'm like that's not right hearing you say that because it's this idea of like applying and criticize like i think the thing that i'm like oh this air like

this is not right as in like that doesn't encapsulate that doesn't feel like it's describing the way i'm feeling because like in i think it's using a lot of very active language for stuff that's really subconscious and i'm not saying that we don't have control or power over that and like being really like aware and unlearning paddings patterns over time but to be like you're choosing to do this and you're choosing to do that, I think like takes away from like the years of like conditioning. And that's not to say like I'm powerless,

I can't do anything about it, but it's a matter of saying like, there shouldn't be this presser to like change your thought process like so quickly when it's something that like is like very deeply ingrained in a lot of different ways. I guess, but I'm just saying,

if I meet a stranger, whoever that stranger is,, but I'm just saying if I meet a stranger, whoever that stranger is, and if I, as soon as I meet them, apply stereotypes that I might think apply to them, whether it's their gender, whether it's their race, whether it's their upbringing, where they're like region of the world that they're from, I'm discounting them as an individual. And I'm taking, and I'm making assumptions about who they are and where they're from, I'm discounting them as an individual. And I'm taking and I'm making assumptions about who they are and where they're from and their personality and how they're going to react. And I am not giving myself the opportunity

to get to know the person. And I'm just thinking in general, when we meet people, especially when we're dating them, and we want to meet them, we want to meet the individual, we want to learn about them, we want to see if there's a connection.

We are doing ourselves a disservice by applying generalizations and stereotypes and getting in our heads and comparing them to past people we date. And I understand the, I understand us, and we all do it, right? So I understand the natural instinct

to apply past experiences. I'm just saying you would be doing yourself more of a favor by trying not to and just getting to know the people, whoever that is in front of you and just try to get to know them. And like I said earlier, instead of analyzing everything they say

or everything they do in real time, maybe take a step back, try to be more present, try to really just get to know them, and then evaluate after a couple dates rather than right in the moment. Anyway, I thought this was really interesting. I don't know. But yeah, what do you have to say? How does this all feel,bie um i mean i have

a lot to say i feel like about this topic of like sexuality in general but i think i think it's helpful and your recommendation of like taking it like as the person and not just like every moment to heart and like really just like taking myself out of like every instance and just getting to know the person and not really putting too much pressure on everything. So I think that was good advice. Yeah. Just try to like, just try to do that in general. Dating in general, regardless of who you're dating is about getting to know the person in front of you and seeing if there's a connection. And the more you can give them the fair opportunity to truly let them know who they are,

regardless of what you might think that, you know, regardless of whatever stereotypes they bring or regardless of, you know, where they're from, you're more, you're apt to actually get to know them. Because I do think we do that in our head, especially on dates. We don't want, you know, when we meet a stranger, it can be very uncomfortable. So I think subconsciously we start guessing about who they are. We make assumptions because, well, if I feel like I've known you forever, then I don't feel like I'm on a date with a stranger. And I think we have to be careful to just sit in that kind of awkward period of like, this is a stranger who I don't know and encourage yourself to ask them

questions, get to know rather than assume you know who they are. And just talk about yourself, which I think a lot of us do. Who do you think you're going to go on a date with? Are you still actively dating them both? So I'm still kind of actively dating them both. But I'm keeping myself open as well. I'm just trying to find the right person. Yeah, but I think with the woman,

we have a really good like rapport going. So I'm really like excited to see where that goes. It's just like a new kind of development for me. So we'll see how that goes. I think you in general, regardless of who, I think you, I think dating will be easier for you if you can just focus on one person at a time, whoever that is. I don't think it's bad for you to date multiple people but i think it makes it harder for yourself to like really figure

out who you're connecting with well we definitely want an update yeah yeah i would definitely come back with an update if you will have me back keep it keep us updated absolutely uh and let me know what you think of the book well you want an update for you because i feel like you're the bachelorette and you're down to like your final two people. And I want to know who gets your final rose. We're down to follow your story, Debbie. Okay, great. All right. Well, thank you for calling. Keep us posted and indulge me. Try to, you know, simplify the moments, as I say in my book, and just enjoy and try to be present on your dates and try not to dissect and judge every little interaction of any of the people you date and see how that goes.

Do you recommend a chapter for me to look at in your book about that? Or do you not have it on the back of your head right now? There's a whole chapter about first dates and dating in general. It's in the middle of the book. I think it's like chapter five or six, but I would start at the beginning. All right. Take care. Nice to see you. All right.

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We are certainly obsessed. Stream every episode of Traders Now only on Peacock. We also have a written update from Kate. So Kate originally appeared on episode 516, but then also joined us for an update on 533. When she first called in, it was because her boss had an F-boy brother who was always like traveling. And there was kind of like a will they, won't they? And then she started dating someone else, right? Yeah. And like didn't know if it was a good fit or not.

It was kind of just like in the trenches of dating and was saying specifically how she always dreads the walk to her car because of like first kiss stuff. And so she has an update regarding that specifically. So last time I wrote in, we talked about the pressure of a kiss on the first date and Nick suggested I just make it conversation. Well, I tried it and it worked. Essentially, I made a joke about talking about the horror story of past dates just mauling my face and we had a whole conversation about kissing on the first date. By the end of the date, he then asked me if he could kiss me and promised he wouldn't maul my face like the past guy and made a joke too. LOL. So it worked.

And I felt way more in control and comfortable in the situation this time. Thank you, guys. Which just proves that like... A little upfront communication goes a long way. Yeah. And not all communication has to be like scary and serious and like therapy talk like yeah i mean we all have our dating horror stories right so use that to your advantage without being coming across cynical it's just more

like hey man are you having the same crazy experience that i'm having out there and you just kind of make it kind of light and fun. Like what is with all these crazy guys? And you say that with the implication that they're not one of those other guys and you give them an opportunity, you know, as we've talked so much recently on this show, it's just like, I think there's just a lot of misinformed people out there and it's not less an excuse, but I do think, you know, the way dating culture has gotten, I think it's the wild west out there. I think expectations aren't being communicated. Everyone's just out

there just slinging it around and not communicating. And we're just developing these terrible bad habits. And I think we just need to communicate with each other more and more upfront. And, you know, this this guy whether it works out with him or not he will always in the back of his mind be thinking about how he doesn't want to be that guy that all those other guys were to that one girl who like talked about like these guys just want to like rip off her face on the first kiss you know with a big oh oh i needed a warning for that baby wow anyway uh it's a little upfront communication love it welcome back again renee how you doing good good to see you good to see you uh always happy to have a familiar face all right uh bring us up to speed this is your third time calling in. That's your second update. We met a cute guy.

He lived in your building. Yeah. Yeah. So basically the sum it up quickly. I called in about my neighbor who I was having very mixed feelings towards. We met, really hit it off, were hanging out all the time, went to this Harry Styles concert where things got a little murky, and I was getting really in the feels, getting confused. And we chatted multiple times about really just like being brave enough to confront these mixed feelings. And you were encouraging me to really just go for it and be honest, because as time went on, and we're hanging out, we went to Germany together, we did all these trips trips i was like battling a lot of mixed feelings and you were always pushing me to really just be honest with him and sit him down have that

conversation and i finally did that so okay here we are because like the second time you you updated us you hadn't really done that it was you you did a baby version you tipped your toes in the water and you were saying we're just friends. And then Nick kind of posed the important question of like, but if he was interested, would you also be down? You said yes, and that's when we kind of acknowledged that things were not purely platonic. Okay. Right.

Let's play a quick clip just to, you know, refresh our audience's memory. Welcome back, Renee. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to give you guys an update and see everyone again. We're excited to hear it. So remind our callers what your challenge was and what was the advice I gave you? So I live in the same building as the cute neighbor as he was labeled on the podcast. And I was struggling with how to define our friendship and what to do. And I was getting mixed messaging and was very confused. And listening back, we talked a lot about

just like the friendship itself and how it's not a real friendship. And there's an expiration date on that kind of friendship and how you very much encouraged me to confront this and talk to him about the confusion i was having and just kind of lay it all out on the table so i since then just started taking a lot of space and then i was getting closer to talking to him and I didn't do it. But I have a lot of reasons that I feel like it was just like I was waiting to do it, waiting to do it, which I know is a lot to do with just courage and bravery and didn't all the way get there. But I just took the steps that I felt like I needed to take to make it feel more normal as a normal friendship. So I stopped like going

over there all the time and tried to like diversify who I'm spending my time with. So you never actually had the conversation with him? Like what's the relationship like? Yeah, I think I just have been like taking a lot of steps back to make it feel more of like a healthy guy friendship. But at the end of the day, i don't think the feelings have gone away or the curiosity or your like the interest like if he knocked on your door today and said can we talk can we just get it out of the open like first of all i just want to apologize i feel like guessing i've been a little confusing to you and i i i've been working through my issues and i'm a little scared to say this but like i want to date you i like you i. I care about you. We've been, we're making TikToks together and we're having fun. Like, I feel like you would be very

interested in that conversation. That's the truth. And that's the only truth that really matters as it relates to this relationship and everything else that you're doing is this a different version of spending your energy on this guy and on this relationship that allows you to keep him in your life? I think you should sit him down and be super vulnerable and tell him exactly how you feel. Ask him how he thinks and feels. And just know that he's, you know, it's, he's going to have to process that. Okay. So set the stage.

How did you do it? Got it. So we talked and. How did you do it? Where were you? What made you like, what, what gave you the courage to finally do it? Where were you? Yeah.

Set the stage a little bit. Got it. So full transparency, like after I did the second update i kind of walked away just being like i hear him but i just know like this is such a precious relationship to me and i'm i just don't think i can do it like i kind of accepted like you know what i'm just gonna have to live in this limbo um we went to this party together and everything was great. And my friends were like, wow, he really clearly is into you. Like you guys were all over each other. And I was just kind of like, you know what, I'm just going to have to let this play out until I basically, this was like around the holidays. There was time apart. I hadn't seen him. We were texting all the time. And essentially what happened was,

is after this like month without seeing each other, I ran into him in the building, of course. And I said, Hey, we'd love to hang out tomorrow. Let's watch one of the football games that we're on. So we made this plan and go to the football game. And basically I show up at the bar texting him, Hey, you coming? Just like nothing radio silence. Doesn't text me back. Doesn't show up at the bar texting him, hey, you coming? Just like nothing. Radio silence. Doesn't text me back. Doesn't show up. And I was just there alone for like four hours.

And just in that moment, I was just like, this is literally what Nick was talking about, where it's just like, it was like crushing me to my core. And I was like, if my friend did that to me, I'd be like, screw you. You're an idiot and leave. But like my, I just knew in my brain, I was like if my friend did that to me i'd be like screw you you're an idiot and leave but like my i just knew in my brain i was like this has gone too far like i just like felt awful and i was like just like this is needs to stop yeah you also told on yourself to yourself right there if my friend did this yeah which you that's you admitting to yourself he's not really my friend right so it was just so clear to me in that moment i was like this was like that breaking point for me where i was like clearly this is not a normal friendship because i would have left and been

like you're an idiot i'm leaving and instead i was just like i couldn't handle it so i was really really really upset and i like didn't talk to him for a couple of days. And he texted me being like, Hey, like five hours later, like I changed my plans, ended up going somewhere else, like just stupid. And then he didn't respond. I didn't respond. And then he was like, okay, I can tell you're upset. I want to say again, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that. And I was just like, this is just so not it. And like, I need to like, seize control of the situation. And it really reminded me what you said of like, this was never a friendship to begin with. And it's clearly not now. So because it's not a friendship, I have nothing to lose. And that's when it just kind

of went off in my brain, like, because this isn't a friendship, I'm not risking anything anymore. So I'm just going to be fully honest. And like, week i was like hey um i think we should talk and so that's when the conversation ensued oh great all right and then how did it go how did you so i bring him over and i just say hey i'm over there for like three hours and i'm basically like i just need to be honest with you clearly like there's something going on between us that I just would love to know what it is like that really, really, really, really hurt me. And I don't think you realize like how often you've been doing this to me because that was a pattern like he had done that before where he said he would be somewhere I didn't show up. And I just said like, I don't

have friends like that in my life that would do that to me. So like, I'm at a point where I don't even know if we can be friends anymore, just because this has been like a cycle of events. And essentially what he said was, he was like, I think of you as like my best friend in the world. I've never had a friend like you. I, I know I keep hurting you and I don't want to. And I kind of just like paused him there. And I was like, can we just like talk about the elephant in the room? Like you keep saying I'm your best friend, but like, it's so obvious that this is not what this is. And so I was like can we just like talk about the elephant in the room like you keep saying I'm your best friend but like it's so obvious that this is not what this is and so I just like took the leap and I was like what's going on like are you interested in me do you see me as a friend like and he was like oh like did the very like trying to figure out what I meant and I was like

no like we don't have time to like dance around it. Like, let's just confront it. I was like, I, when I met you, it was like really interested in you. And now I just, I don't even know where we stand. And what he said was, he's like, have you ever, you know, if you have, if you think of a sister, right? Like I think of you as my sister and you know, when there's like a line with a sister that you would never cross? It was really fun for me to get close to that line. So like I knew that I would never be anything with you romantically, but it was just so fun. And like the silence in the air that I felt when he said that. Was he like low-key suggesting that he finds it kinky? Like literally?

To like maybe fuck his sister? That's literally what I said. I was like, so do you, I mean, he doesn't have one. I was like, so you're saying you'd literally maybe fuck his sister that's literally what i said i was like so do you i mean doesn't have one i was like so you're saying you'd like to fuck your sister like it made no sense and it was just like i really was just like i can't believe this is like where we are and it was just like reality was hitting and i was like so you're telling me that this was just like a game a fun thing and he was like i, I thought we just knew that all along that we were always like doing it for fun. This whole time I've been so confused that I've been like keeping this little thing in my phone to be like, you know, in that moment when he's going to say you're wrong,

you're going to have something to say. And I just gave him all these little examples that we had talked about in this podcast of like times that like he had tried to hook up with me and been flirty and said suggestive things. And like each one was like oh well like it wouldn't have actually happened like i thought we were kidding like i thought that you knew that it was fun and like just made an excuse for every single one did you ask him why would you why would you why did you why were you so confident about my feelings about something we never talked about or discussed he basically said that it like since it never actually happened that it was so clear that it wasn't going to happen i think was his logic like he's like i know you think we almost hooked up but it wouldn't have actually

happened and i was like so you would have like turned your head away he's like yeah i mean in a way like i think it like i hate him putting him on the spot he didn't have a good reason and instead of just being honest and being like i too was confused he just fully was like no like he tried to make it yeah he doubled down he tried to put it on you which is freaking ridiculous i don't so much and blamed kinky sister relations as his reasoning well that's why i sound like an idiot because he instead of just being up upfront and disappointing you and taking accountability for the fact that like, you know what? I don't feel that way. And I guess if I'm being honest with myself,

I suppose as shitty as it sounds, I suppose I've been using you for validation and I've been using you for comfort and I've been using you for convenience when I feel lonely and I am comfortable with you for convenience when I feel lonely and I am comfortable with you and we have a good vibe. And when I, when I'm feeling a little kinky or flirty or fun, you've been there to just do that with, and I've never really considered or even took the time to ask how that might make you feel. And I'm sorry. That's what hurt me so much is because instead of just

being honest, like I was like, even I was like giving him those examples. I was like, I have this like video of us off October 5th of him literally kissing my face over and over and the shock on my face. And he just watches it and like laughs. He's like, haha, that was so funny. And I was like, well, you're not getting is like, I'm not just this like pawn in your big scheme to like have this fun, exciting life in New York. Like I'm a person that you're continuously were like misleading over and over and over and leading on for no reason other than for your own entertainment. And he just never really got there with me to fully acknowledge like that that's what happened. And then instead of just saying that he like doubled down more. It took three hours of just that vibe.

First of all, I'm sorry, because I'm sure that was a very difficult conversation to have. And when did you have that conversation? About a couple of weeks ago. Okay. And I'm assuming there was some grieving that took place the days that followed. Well, that's why it actually gets interesting because believe it or not, I had that conversation and I think, and this is what I like have,

I hate like these words we use, like overuse, like the term gaslighting, like I hate how overused it is, but like after processing it, I know that that's what happened to me because like, I feel like everything I came with, honestly, of just like being sincere he just like twisted it and was even twisting it in real time like was laughing with me and was

like this was just us being friends like we're the best friends in the world like me and you taking on the world like we can do anything and i feel like even in that conversation i had some regret that i didn't fully stand up for myself and say like this is over yeah when someone says oh clearly i've hurt you i fucking hate that that's not you know what i hate i want to walk you down the aisle next to your dad that's what i hate but like clearly i've hurt you that that puts the blame on you it's like the account. It's the least accountable way of like slightly even trying to acknowledge. It's just like you being heard as like, uh,

this is your fault for his actions or something. Not like clearly I've done something that I, I regret. And then this is, it made you feel this way and I'm sorry. Like clearly you're upset about this. Like as if it's your feelings that are at fault, where are we now?

And I think I just left being like I need to like give this space and basically I like went away for a week on a trip and didn't talk to him and I was with like it was like so great I was surfing I was like in nature and I was just like thinking and meditating a lot and like I'm just like why I even ended up in that situation and like trying to figure out like what was going on with me to even allow me to be in that situation where I was giving this guy so many chances and I came back and I ran into him and he was like hey let's go to the gym and so we went to the gym and then he's like let's get coffee after and we're like sitting down to get coffee and I'm put my cup down and he goes oh why did why did you get that for here? I thought you would get

it to go. And I was like, what do you mean? He said, you want to get coffee? And he was like, well, I have to call this girl. I have to set up a date. Like, I don't really have time. So like we went from people who would spend every day together to now like the 10 minutes of coffee, like he couldn't even, but when he like did that to me at coffee, I feel like it's like the cherry on top where I just was like my whole world in that moment just like ceased. And I was just like, I just like crumbled. I was just like, I left and I just like sobbed. And I was just like, I've never had someone make me feel just so worthless and like an option and like plan B and like not worthy of their presence or their time.

Have you blocked him yet? He's in my phone. I do not text. Okay. I feel like friend or more, you deserve to feel much better than worthless. And I feel like that was a good, like that moment when you flag that for yourself.

Like even if we are just friends, this is not how I want to be feeling with any of my friends. Yeah. And it's so hard to like be honest with yourself because like if I were in that situation, my ego would be like resisting so much the revel like the idea that i'd fallen back into this thing that i knew was bad for me and like the fact that you can like be self-aware and like

move onward and call your friend and do that like not just like kind of be like i'm ready to get over this but start to take the action steps for getting over it is like huge and also i'm just so impressed with how vulnerable you are i feel like this is so this resonates with me so much and the fact that you were able to like say this to him in a conversation which because i think it's hard because it's like the opposite of the chill girl trope to be like here all the times and all the and i have receipts and everything i'm so glad you had receipts and like the fact that you're able to be like fuck the chill girl i'm gonna like say my piece even if you didn't necessarily get the like hannah brown like eat shit like kind of perfect verbal moment like you like it's such a triumph to be able to like be vulnerable in that way can we uh can we just block him right now let's do it

together okay okay yeah i will because we we we, we agree that we're really just, we're done with him. Right. Yeah. I mean, it was like, I, I feel like thank you for saying that one. Um, but two, it took a lot for me. It's scary how much it took for me to even get there to be like, cause I think this whole time, which I had said to you, the first time we ever talked, I can't imagine. I can't imagine my life in New York without him.

He's my best friend. We do everything together. Because he's not your best friend. He's just not. He's a guy you had a crush on and you spent a lot of time with and that you built a lot of rapport with and you had a lot of comfort with and you enjoyed and had all things being equal. If he wasn't the asshole that he's turned out to be, you might have wanted to date him because there was a lot of things you liked about

him but he wasn't your best friend you have other friends you're gonna be totally fine there might be an adjustment period because you did invest a lot of time in him and there might be some gaps of like literal space that like you're used to hanging out with him that you're gonna have to fill with other people and maybe some new people but but like, you're going to be fine. And that narrative of like, I know I, he's my best friend. I can't imagine New York without him. You have to continue now to shoot that narrative down. You know, that's not a real narrative. It's a narrative you've created and you've told yourself to like, stay in that relationship.

And now that you know that you want out of that relationship, you have to like, anytime that narrative pops in your head, you have to literally say, no, no, that's not have to like anytime that narrative pops in your head you have to literally say no no that's not true stop thinking that yeah that's not true ellen yeah you were invited all right so we're gonna block them right now together let's go ahead and do that okay we're going into the do not text contact okay great okay um block this number Contact. Okay, great. Okay. Block his number. Okay, I just did it. Yay! All right, now, step two. No, don't put the phone down.

Now, let's delete the contact. His number will still be blocked. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. All right, now, step step three let's go to instagram okay let's go ahead and block them there and for anybody listening along with this episode

take out your phone follow along with us if you have a tutorial you're long overdue to follow along with renee she's blocking on instagram let's clap again okay okay okay anything we're missing any other social media apps you on snapchat with him no no no and see this is how this is you know because we were in the we're gonna make tiktoks together no uh age poorly so do you follow each other on tiktok no okay it's just yeah but this is what i mean it's like that kind of stuff of just like i really appreciate you saying that because like i think it's hard because it is this narrative of like you never even kissed like you never even dated but like i've never had one person make

me feel so awful about myself yeah and just being able to like walk away from it and be like i'm actually fine. I'm better than fine. I feel like myself again. I feel like I have my life back again. I feel like I'm making choices that I would want my friend to make about myself, which is just so much harder. It's been really good.

And like, I actually, it's been a couple of weeks and like, I feel so much better than I thought I would. I really thought this was going to be like a rough transition and for me when i do like see him or see things that remind me of him i'm like remember when you like took yourself out of that horrible situation it's like the thought that comes to mind yeah we've all been there uh you just got a little stuck and you got a little stubborn but you know sometimes it just needs to play out the way it did. And I'm, you know, in a way, probably better that you didn't take my advice at first and let it play out this way.

Because you wouldn't have gotten this type of clarity without seeing him the way you finally got to see him. And so, yeah. But I'm glad you finally got there. And let's just remember this feeling so there's no chance of relapsing because i don't he'll i'm sure he'll find a way to make you feel bad about things or run into you in the building but i think you just try to avoid them and just say hey listen like i don't want to be friends. And yeah, just please respect that. Make him feel like he's making you really uncomfortable. Yeah. And, uh, which is just, yeah. And it's just interesting, even in that like little moment, like it really wasn't the

three hour conversation. It was the way that like, when we sat down for coffee, he made me feel like this like clingy, annoying annoying crazy person that would want to get coffee with him and it was just like in that moment where I was like oh my god like I'm this is not okay like it was just that for me that I was like I'm not that person I've never been that person and you continuously make me feel like this person who's so obsessed with you and you can't even give me 10 minutes of your time I think it's just kind of almost like psychology in a sense, like the bachelor, you know, um, people ask me about that environment a lot. And the reason why people are able to fall in love so intensely is because it's actually a relationship that's based off of withholding love,

not giving love. Cause on the show you have these little brief moments of interaction and then immediately you're being pulled away from each other. Right. So you got a taste of something good. And then you can on the show, you can just fill in the pieces that are missing with this narrative. You can fantasize about the relationship. And most of the relationships in Bachelor World are based off of the idea of someone because you have limited access to them and then you spend a bunch of time away from them and then you just kind of pine and yearn yeah create a false narrative in your head and that's kind of what you did right and so for sure you know he

gave you a little bit of himself you had these moments and then when you weren't with him you kind of played it up in your head i mean we've all done this a million times right you don't have to be on the bachelor that do that the bachelor is just like a heightened example of that. So you're not crazy, but like, it's just an opportunity to learn from it. And I don't think you need to spend a bunch of time going back and trying to like analyze yourself and wonder why this happened. You know, he was clearly a charming guy. You guys had a lot in common. You enjoy doing certain things. That's it, you know, certain things. That's it,

you know, and you just created a false narrative in your head that you now realize is false. A lot of people love to say things in the moment because it feels good and they don't put any thought about what, how those people receive it or what it might mean. They're very reckless with their words and, and that sucks. But as a words of affirmation person you kind of need

to recognize that and and not be so susceptible to just words you can be a words of affirmation person and still require meaning behind words and you and be able to match their actions with their words to make sure that this person really understands what they're saying you know yeah so just a just it's just a tough lesson for you, but an important one and one that you'll be better for going forward. Well, this is great. Really proud of you. Appreciate you sharing the story. I know everyone listening has enjoyed following along, but truly, it sounds like it's been

a great breakthrough and you're saying all the right things. And I think life's just going to be, honestly, better for it. Me being cheated on by my then fiance back then, I think back is one of the best moments of my life. And I really do because so much changed for me because I really started changing how I see things. This could be this for you because it just really, it fucked you up a little bit. It clearly consumed a lot of your energy. And now you see things a little clearly and a little differently. And now you can have that like anger of like, why did I do this? And then never want to do again. So next time this happens, you know, you may never nail it perfectly, but you'll be far quicker to get to where you want to be and you will waste a lot less of your emotional energy on people.

Totally. No, I couldn't agree more. It's honestly been one of those pillars for me of just who I am and also now what I know I'm looking for. for. No one gets to treat me like that. No one gets to make me feel like that. And I have to protect myself and stop being so willing to fall in a way that's hurting me over and over and over and just be okay with that. At some point, it's more important to just be able to walk away. Yeah. All right. Well, good luck. Congrats. We're proud of you. Thanks for all the updates. We appreciate it. Thank you for having me. This was really, really really helpful and i was genuinely so excited because not only did i take your advice but i feel so much better off for it so thank you anytime we appreciate it well i'll reach out in a

few months and be like how's dating going because i'm sure you will continue to find someone better we would love an update when you have uh you know along the way i. I would love that. That sounds great. Thanks so much. All right. Thank you. All right. Bye. Thanks for listening, guys.

Hope you enjoyed it. Don't forget, if you love these updates, there's so much more to listen to behind Vile Files. Plus, just go to vilefiles.com to check it out. You get a seven-day free trial, so there's no excuses. Don't forget also, Lala Kent and Howie Mendel next week. A lot of Vanderpump Rules.

A lot more tea. A lot more stuff. You're going to love it. It's great. Can't wait to share it with you. Have a great weekend. Bye.