The Viall Files - E589 Ask Nick - My Husband Isn’t Empathetic

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Ask Nick Edition! We’re back to answer your burning questions about the world of dating and relationships. Before getting to our callers, we talk about our weekend field trip to Schwartz & Sandy’s, what we thought about it, and what the staff had to say!  Our first callers are a husband and wife that have different understandings of empathy. Holly wishes Will was more empathetic and could help with her emotions while running a business, but Will is hoping for more understanding that it doesn’t come naturally to him and he also has a very stressful job. Our second caller recently broke up with her long term boyfriend, only to have one of her guy friends shoot his shot. We analyze all of the signs to figure out if he’s being supportive or wanting more out of their friendship. Our final caller is in love with two men she’s dating - one of whom she has a deeper emotional connection with, the other with great chemistry in the bedroom. She’s been dating both of them for five months, and isn’t sure who to pursue fully.  “Guys can often act like a boyfriend, and not want to be a boyfriend.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store and https://www.onamp.com for Android listeners. To Order Nick’s Book Go To: https://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line!  To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS:  BetterHelp - The Viall Files is sponsored by BetterHelp. Find more balance, with BetterHelp. Visit https://www.BetterHelp.com/VIALL today to get 10% off your first month. Kosas - Don’t choose between wearing great makeup, and taking care of your skin. Right now, Kosas is offering our listeners 15% off your first purchase of $50 or more when you go to https://www.Kosas.com/VIALL Juneshine - We’ve worked out a special offer for our listeners. At any store, you can buy 1 JuneShine package and get the 2nd for only a penny ($0.01). Go to https://www.JUNESHINE.com/VIALL, text them a photo of your receipt, and they’ll Venmo you immediately.  Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell

what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files ask nick edition hope y'all had a wonderful Memorial Day weekend. Thanks for your, you know, flexibility with our programming notes. But we wanted to make sure that you enjoyed your Memorial Day. For anyone who panicked when not seeing an Ask Nick on Monday, we're here. We knew your Tuesday would be like this freaky post- weekend tuesday where you feel bad and it's like a mega monday and we wanted you to have some ask nick in your life for that yeah scary car ride we have some a fun little update for you uh the team went to swartz in sandy's last saturday, we did. Ah, what is this? It felt right.

Irish cap. I'm following my intuition. It was wild. It was wild. I didn't... Overall, like, a nice little aesthetic. Schwartz was outside taking selfies. So, I was the first one there. Okay. I'm like, I have my finger up like I'm about to go on a little rant. And why were you the first one there, Amanda?

She was on time. No, because she didn't read my text that we pushed the reservation back so but I off your high horse but I was still everybody else was still late from the pushback time I was still the first you got there at nine I yeah yeah I did I was there like on time I wasn't even like a few minutes late no but like for I it's okay I run a loose ship for stuff that's not like work and interviews and appointments and stuff but i will say i did say hi to him like he like walked up to me he was like sort of by the front some people clearly like some vanderpump super fans wanted to take pictures with him and then he like walked over to say hi and i was like hi by the way like and i felt weird i was like i'm on nick's team. Like, he's going to be joining us soon

because I like, didn't want to like, be like in cug. I don't know. And he was like, very nice. And then he was like, I've got the dogs this weekend.

I don't know if I can stay. He left and took care of the dogs, but we went in and we had, they have really good French fries. I will say that. Oh yeah. You really liked the French fries. And also the,

they have black cherry ketchup. No, I hate that. You hated that. I thought it was yum some of the best steak places in the country have ketchup like come on swartz and sandy i don't need fucking black cherry ketchup give me fucking ketchup you're not not that fancy i feel like that was sandoval's idea that's a great question like what i mean that implies that he was actually

overseeing business operations and not just making demands. The staff was lovely. They had some interesting things to say, which will remain anonymous, anonymous in between us. We want to respect. They have some strong opinions about Vandival. Yeah, the restaurant. Not Schwartz. They all, you know, they they had nice things to say about Schwartz. We surveyed the staff. No, we didn't just survey. We received information that was given to us.

We pressed. It was volunteered information. Well, we asked. Well, yeah, but we didn't. We asked around. Yeah. No, it did seem, it seemed like as far as restaurant staffs go, like they seem to be gelling and like doing their thing.

And that was a decent crowd. We left at like 11. So but I expected it to pick up more as the night went along. And it feels more like an earlier maybe hot spot. You think so? Because it's not necessarily a club and it's not really a bar bar. It's more of a restaurant. Not necessarily a club and it's not really a bar bar.

It's more of a restaurant because when I went there after a show closer to maybe like earlier in a night, like on a Friday night, it was standing room only. No tables open, no seats at the bar. And then we went. It was like dead. It wasn't dead. It wasn't dead. But compared to how it was the other time I went. What day of the week did you go?

When did I get my teeth whitened, Amanda? When was that? I feel like it would have been on a Thursday. I feel like it was a Friday. No, it was a Friday. But I'm trying to think how many weeks ago that was. Yeah. Because I remember and you tried and then you had the blue drink and then you were like worried about it with the tea. I had to deep throat that.

Deep throat. It was something. Great French fries. Great French fries. The lobster corn dog. I enjoyed it. I love a corn dog. I don't yeah, it was something. Great french fries. Great french fries. The lobster corn dog, I enjoyed. I love a corn dog, though. I don't really care what's inside. Just give me a corn dog.

They have a lovely staff. The people working for them seem to be very nice. Yeah. And everybody ditched us. Derek and I were the last ones standing. How much did you guys stay out? We went to another bar after that. They were not late.

Yeah. You can drink more than me. Like, they gave us like a round of tequila shots. And I was like. That was not tequila. went to another bar after that they were not late yeah you can drink more than me like yeah they gave us like a round of tequila shots and i was like that was not tequila that was vodka which was a natalie decision i wish our pop culture correspondent was here so we could talk about this vodka shots wouldn't unhinged move no literally like i've seen tiktoks she asked for a vodka yes they asked her do you want vodka or tequila and she's not much of a drinker she decided vodka for everybody maybe that's why because i had like one glass of white wine and that vodka shot on like a

vaguely empty set and i was like oh yeah i was nervous i didn't eat any dinner so i was like we're going for it yes oh wow well it was uh it was really something it was really something really something also don't forget if you love your Ask Nick episodes, every episode of Going Deeper has a call, texting office hours, sweating the wedding, or just, it's a little Ask Nick at every episode of Going Deeper. So for all the people who love the calls, be sure to check out our episodes of Going Deeper if for no other reason they have all these relationship questions and stories that you have come to know and love. Also, don't forget that we dropped an update on Vile Files Classic last Friday.

So if you haven't listened to that quite yet, be sure to go back and do that. It's an excellent update. And as always, don't forget that we drop two update specials every month behind Vile Files Plus. So if you love your updates, you can get two more every month behind Vile Files Plus. So if you love your updates, you can get two more every month behind Vile Files Plus. Go to vilefiles.com to sign up. It's a seven-day free trial, free to sign up. No skin off your back.

Just check it out. You'll love it. I know you will. All right, let's get to our callers. Question time with Nick. Let's ask Nick our callers. How's it going? Hi, good.

How are you? Good. What's your name? Good. My name is Holly. I'm 33 years old. My name is Will. I'm 31 years old.

Nice to meet you both. How can we help? Yeah. So basically, we both have different definitions of empathy and what that means to each of us. Okay. All right. Well, let's get into it. Holly, explain to me why you think you and Will have different versions of empathy and then we'll hear from Will. Yeah. So I think we have a mismatch of emotional backgrounds and experiences. And I tend to have very high expectations when I'm in times of crisis because I have a very close group of friends and family members who are very empathetic people. And I'm a very empathetic person.

So I sort of expect my partner to react the same way that I would react or the way that they would react when I'm going through a hard time in my life. Whereas Will, Will is very, he's always been very independent and he's always been very kind of steadfast and strong with his emotions. Maybe it's the male versus female kind of energies, but I think he thinks that, you know, kind of keeping those emotions in is a, is a strength. And so sometimes if I'm going through something very challenging or difficult and I kind of vent to him or turn to him,

the response might not meet my high expectations or what I'm used to. And then I in turn feel frustrated. And so that's kind of my take on it. Okay. Will, do you have anything to add? Because I would love to hear an example, because I think that'd be helpful to the audience. But before you have an example, Holly, Will, do you have anything to add from your point of view? Sure. Yeah. I think there's definitely the difference in expectations for, for men and young boys as you're growing up and kind of what showing emotions looks like. Um, and my job is very high stress and it's caused me essentially for the last 10 years, ever since I graduated college,

um, moving every six months to a different part of the country and dealing with a high stress environment that required me to kind of compartmentalize and just kind of always be one speed and always happy. Yeah, and that's a real thing. People who literally either have to compartmentalize, I can't say the word. Compartmentalize. Thank you, yeah, I can't talk.

You know, whether it's people who have experienced past trauma early in life or just, you know, like this job, you know, whatever it is, you know, like it's a kind of a fight or flight kind of reactions our bodies do. It's a survival technique. And so that's a real thing. is on the topic of empathy, how do you empathize with Will and his needing to do this for his job? That's a really good question. And that's a big challenge for me because I do hold a lot of empathy for it and his background and his upbringing. And him and I have been going to, we've done couples therapy and we've been able to share and connect there. And so I do have a level of empathy for him and his job

and the way that he's learned to process and express his feelings and emotions. But then I still can't help but sometimes feel frustrated if I don't feel empathy in return or if I don't feel understood in return. So to answer your question, I do empathize to an extent, but I could certainly do better. But then it's also like, how, how kind of patient do I remain with him? Because one of the conversations we always have is he'll say, you know, I'm learning, you have to be patient with

me. I'm still learning that. And I say, okay, yes, I understand that. But then how long does someone, how long does it take someone to learn that? So here's my question is, or maybe it's one or both. Is your frustration more with Will's inability to empathize with something that you're going through? something that you're going through or is your frustration with will his inability uh to express himself emotionally and kind of disconnect as a need to kind of you know like not maybe you know you maybe see him stressed out regarding work and you maybe want to connect with him and have him open up but he's just like hey everything's fine everything good. Is it one or both? Which one are you

struggling with more? It's both. It's both. And I've struggled with each one at different times. I think today it's more the former. It's more when I feel... Because I'm an entrepreneur and starting my own company. It's a lot of ups and downs. It's a lot of high highs and low lows and tears and depression and anxiety and i struggle with feeling like i can't turn to him when i'm going through those moments because he won't he won't understand okay um and do you want him to understand or do you want him to empathize because they're not necessarily the same thing yeah i wonder i want him to empathize and it's something that i've we've tried to work through.

You know, if I feel those things, his response might be, well, I can't imagine what that would feel like. I've never started a company. And I've kind of said, okay, well, you know, of course, but have you ever felt anxious? Have you ever felt depressed? And he'll kind of say, well, yes. And I'll kind of say, well, try to think about how that felt. And that's how I'm how I'm feeling. Do you want him to feel what you feel or do you want him to just empathize with what you feel? empathy, it's like I sort of feel what the other person's going through to an extent.

Even if I've never been through it myself, I can call on a time or an experience where I felt similar and feel those feelings. Sure. But not everyone has that skill. So there is that. And I think that's a unique skill. And also there's the other side of it is sometimes people find that frustrating. Sometimes people find that, you know, people make something about, you know, they'll come to a friend or a partner with a problem and be like, Hey, I'm really, this is really bothering me. I'm really frustrated. And someone would be like, yeah, I know exactly how you feel. I've had this happen to me. It's like, when did this become about you? You know? And so I think there's a balance there. Do you have a specific example of a time where you went to Will and said, hey, babe, this is really... I'm frustrated, I'm upset, I'm depressed, a specific topic, and you remember a reaction he had that you found frustrating?

Yeah. Just maybe last week or so, I was feeling really, really down because I thought that I was... There was a potential merger about to happen with my company and it fell through. And I just felt very, um, uncertain about my future, extremely anxious, extremely depressed. And, um, I was sitting on the sofa crying. Um, and you know, he, Will was sitting on the floor playing with the dog and I just felt very, I felt very disconnected and unseen. Okay. Uh, any response to that? Well, yeah. Um, you know, it's, I can, I can tell when it's happening. It's, it's tough sometimes, you know, I remember that, that night and a few others when I'm, you know, I, I feel bad that I, I don't have much left in the tank after, you know, being a 7,000 RPMs all day. And, uh, she's got something crazy like that going on and, and I know about it and, and I can't, uh, I can't bring myself,

I guess, to, you know, express or, or really dive in deep. Um, cause I'm so burned out and I feel bad for that. You know, obviously family comes first, but. What's, what's the middle ground? for that you know obviously family comes first but what's what's the middle ground because i can understand will that you're just kind of you're taxed and maybe you don't necessarily have the the bandwidth to get into it but i'm also hearing from holly it sounds like in that moment where she was feeling sad you were playing with the dog you know and she felt disconnected is there like a middle ground where, you know, cause I'm, I often, I do this right. And as a guy, you know, I'm always just like, let's find a solution to this problem, you know? And I've, you know, I've had just last week. Now

I got upset about something, right. She was really upset. And I'm thinking in my head, well, okay. I'm, you know, I understood she was upset i'm thinking you know i i get why you're upset but i i don't necessarily agree with the intensity of which you're applying to this situation because i think as time goes on and things will work itself out and i immediately started pitching solutions and shit like that and she was just like i just want you to fucking listen and let me be sad. And just, I want you to hear me out. You know, she just wanted a safe space to express herself and feel like it was okay for her to be upset. And I did the thing that so many guys often do,

which is immediately start pitching solutions, which, you know, even though I'm not meaning to almost kind of invalidates her right to like, just fucking be mad about it or be mad about something. And I'm just wondering, is there a middle ground where, you know, Will, you could just recognize that Holly is upset about something and whatever you're doing, just kind of be there, you know, put your hand on her shoulder to say, Hey, listen, like, you know, I'm here. I'm sorry. You're feeling this way. And, and just kind of hold her. I don't know, like without necessarily getting into it, you know, while, because I just, would that make you feel better, Holly? Cause I can imagine you're upset and he's just like playing the dog and you're kind of feeling visible to him. I can understand why that might be frustrated.

And I'm, and, and Will, I'm, I'm wondering, is there something that's stopping you from doing that because you are afraid that if you do acknowledge it, that you'll have to get into this whole conversation of which you're just like, don't have the energy for? Sure. Sure. I think that's great advice. Just even, the, uh, just even a little bit of physical touch probably help a little bit more, um, and, and be there, be there physically as well as try to be there emotionally. Um, yeah, I think that's great tip. What are your thoughts on that, Holly? Yeah, I, my first thought is, um, you know, this is something we've worked through in therapy and I think that Will does a great job at is when we first started dating, he, he was always giving me solutions and it made me crazy.

And that was a whole other issue. And now he's done a really good job of not doing that. You know, he tends now to listen. But what that leads to is me feeling this way and him just being quiet. And then I get frustrated because I'm like, I'm crying, I'm depressed, I'm anxious. And you're just being quiet. You're not saying anything. Like, why aren't you saying anything? You're just playing with the dog. You're being quiet. So you kind of hit the nail right on the head with that middle ground of like, what, what is that middle ground between providing solutions and just being silent? And, and so that's what, that's what comes to mind for me is I agree with you on finding that middle ground. I'm just trying to think through what that looks like. Because another thing that I struggle with, and this is

probably me again with my unrealistic expectations, but authenticity is a really big personal value of mine. And so I struggle if we're having an interaction and I don't feel that it's authentic. So A, what is the middle ground? And B, is it authentic to Will? Well, yeah. I mean, to be honest, Holly, I feel like that's more of a you problem than a Will problem. Because that sounds almost impossible. It's just like, because it's like like which one do you want holly you know like do you want

him to you know listen to your needs and try to meet your needs the best he can or do you want him to give you his most authentic reaction because they're they're not the same thing you know and we have to accept our partners you know on as they are you know we can always ask our partners you know to work on themselves to you know the fact that you guys are in couples therapy amazing you know you're always willing to like you know let's just try to figure this conflict out whatever that is you're it's always fair to ask our partners to be the best versions of ourselves but it's unfair to try to change our partners. You know, like we have to accept them who they are and they can try to be better versions

of that person. But, um, you know, Will's never going to be as empathetic as you are. It just might not be in his DNA, you know, and thank God it sounds like you have other people and other friends in your life that can give you the type of empathy that you're requiring. But I think you're doing yourself a disservice by, you know, thinking, well, if my partner loves me enough, he will figure out how to give me the empathy that I require, uh, exactly how I require it. You know, I, I think you're setting yourself up for a little bit of disappointment in that regard, just because it's just not as easy for everyone. Um, and so I think it's for you finding that middle ground of what would, you know, it's

just cause like you said, I think you said the key word, like I felt disconnected and I have found in, in like my relationship, you know, and we use, we've started using that word a lot, like being connected, right? Because in the past, you know, when one of us is frustrated, you know, it can be like, well, why aren't you doing this? Or it's, I'm upset that you did X, Y, or Z. And then the other person responds to you, you know, telling, you know, hearing why they upset them, you know, as opposed to like, Hey babe, I'm like, I'm just feeling a little disconnected from you. Can we find a way to connect, you know? And then that way you two are more on the same page of the goal is to be connected. The goal isn't necessarily to give you know you exactly what you want or vice versa it's just our our goal is to feel connected our goal is to try to be

on the same page and i think sometimes in relationships we want our partners to you know do x y or z because that will we've decided that they have to do this to make us feel loved or make us feel enough rather than like, all I really want to do is feel like I'm on somewhat of the same page. I just want to know they care. I want to know that they want to go out of their way to try to stay connected with me. That's helped my relationship

to just have that common goal of being connected as much as possible, even if that doesn't mean you're getting exactly what you want when you want it. I wonder if maybe reframing also, like if there's something that's not coming naturally for him and he's trying and like, there's one part of you

that's like, wait, this feels inauthentic. Am I forcing him to do this? Is he not here and present with me? Like reframing of like, wow, he's willing to do something uncomfortable and unfamiliar. Like if even just like that little switch and viewing it as like, oh my God, he's really showing up for me right now. And just because it doesn't look like how my sister or my mom or whoever else is maybe like more like accustomed to that,

it might not look the same, but it's still like in that way, it's even more impressive that he's like still trying to be here. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I love both of those points. I really, really like the kind of middle ground of just, you know, how can we just be connected? How can we feel connected? I think that seems very approachable. And it seems like something we can actually work on in that moment where it can simplify things a little bit. And I also think that the reframing is great. framing is great and that's why like the fact that that will is willing to um you know do things like come to couples therapy with me and and talk through this it does mean the world to me that

he's willing to to do that and so i both those points are very very spot on yeah because yeah it's just i think you're holly just it's i don't want you to set yourself up for disappointment. And empathy is, it's a skill to a certain degree, but on some level, it's people just kind of naturally have that instinct and some people naturally don't, right? And so it sounds to me when you get upset, like there's like this almost, you have this almost out of body experience that's looking over to Will being like, I want him to do X, Y, and Z. And this is how I want him to do it. And when he doesn't meet those needs, and as an entrepreneur, I'm guessing you have some sort of, you have a bit of type A personality in you. Very much.

Yeah. And so control and you have a process, process you have expectations as an entrepreneur that serves you very well i'm sure in a relationship i think you have to try to work on um being more kind of malleable with your expectations and like we said kind of reframe what those expectations are because staying connected in a relationship that's always obtainable all that requires two people giving a shit you know and and but but doing exactly you know what your part you know what you know getting receiving having an expectation of specificity and knowing that you're going to get frustrated and disappointment when they don't meet it you know exactly like you could as an employer it It's just, it's, it's, you're really setting yourself up for, for failure. And so, yeah, like, you know, trying to think about what he is doing rather than what

he's not doing might, might go a long way. Yeah, I think so. I think, I think expectations are having strict expectations is not a great thing really in any area of life because it does set yourself up for disappointment. So that's something I definitely do want to work on is kind of letting go of expectations and attaching myself to outcomes. And yeah, I think I could, I definitely need to work on that. And that's why I'm in therapy too. I've also learned too. It's just like, there is, you know, I, it's like we, we do, we want our partners to read our mind. I know I did this thing. I would do this thing where it's just like, yeah, if I have to ask, then it's less meaningful. I don't want to tell you what to do. I don't want to be your boss. I don't want to be your parent. So then it's just

like, but in a relationship, you're not mind readers. So you have to state your expectations. So in this scenario, right, where you're crying, feeling depressed you know, so you have to state your expectations. So in this scenario, right, where you're crying, feeling depressed, Will came home from work, you know, and he's playing with the dog. My guess is normally you wouldn't say anything you, or if you did, there might be some kind of passive aggressive remark, uh, in terms of what he's not doing, you know, which then could trigger Will because he's already tired. He's already frustrated. But instead, you could just pause and say, hey, babe, I'm feeling a little down and I'd really love for you to just be by your side.

Can you just be next to me? And if nothing else, I would love to just feel connected to you. And if nothing else, I would love to just feel connected to you. You know, I'm guessing that's going to be far better received than you never do this. Or why can't you ever be there for me when I'm upset? And I think the language we use when we are frustrated with each other can go a long way because, you know, it's a build too, right? And when you hear from your partner, it's just like, you never fucking do this. Like, why don't you, why can't you ever, you know, the words ever and never and always are, I think are just very trickering in relationships. Because when I hear that, I'm thinking, what do you mean never? I fucking did this last, you know,

what are you talking about? You know, I tried last week and like, you know, especially if it's something that we struggle with, you know? And so here, you know, especially if it's something that we struggle with, you know? And so, you know, Will could be working on something, doing his very best. And then all of a sudden you throw out, you never do this, you know? And that can set a person back, you know, being like, I mean, I literally fucking tried, you know, like so much for trying. So I think we just have to be very careful with the language we use when we're frustrated too. trying. So I think we just have to be very careful with the language we use when we're frustrated too. A hundred percent. And I think we do a good job of that. I'm, you know, my, my business is all around therapy and, and cause I just think it's the, the, the savior of the world. And so I'm very good about using I language and I feel like this and can we work on this? And I feel X, Y,

Z, but that's not necessarily that much better to be like, I don't feel supported. I feel sad. I don't feel connected. You know, sometimes maybe tonality as well. Sure. It's to be like, Hey babe, can we just try it? Can we connect here? Can we, can we connect? Cause I, I language is a little, or I and you, you know, we, and us is anytime you can

replace I and you with we, and us is always going to go a lot further. You know, I love it. I love it. If we could just sit next to each other right now, could we just hold each other? Can you just, can we just be there next to each other right now? I'm feeling a little down, you know? I really liked the thought of replacing I with we, because I, I've always, I know not to use the word you, so I'll use the word I a lot, but I, I like the idea of replacing I with we, I think that just seems a lot better to me. It's such a simple thing that I haven't thought about. Yeah. And just give them some space to not meet your expectations exactly as you want them. And like I said, just reframing goes a long way. Anything I'm saying, what do

you think about what i'm saying well and is it is it resonating any thoughts any pushback yeah i think that's uh right on the money and um you know i've i've expressed before hey you know i'm working on it you know right after this in fact i'm going to see our our guy that uh we meet with for couple therapy one-on-ones that that way he can help me out a little bit and I can he can help be my translator for when I in private would say one word he can say the 500 that's really in my head and so I can learn those tools and be a better partner I hear you man well I gotta say Holly I mean we we get a lot of people writing in and it's mostly women and we are, we, we are always asking if their partner can come on and, uh, Will, Will's literally a one percenter. Cause I would say one

out of a hundred of the guys are willing to do what he did. So there is that, um, that, that means the world. And I obviously obviously am a huge fan of your show and you. And I know that I've heard you ask people to come on together and kind of challenge people to bring them on, bring them on. And I haven't really heard that happen. So I'm very impressed that he's here. It means a lot. Yeah. Something I tried well, too, that helped me kind of, you know, be a little bit more vulnerable is like when I was, you know, and maybe you could do this too, Holly, is that again, like instead of saying, instead of starting,

like when I was frustrated, again, it's, it's very easy to say, I'm frustrated at you and here's what you're doing, you know, or something like that, you know, but I, and I think I've mentioned this on the show before, but I've often led, hey, I'm feeling a little insecure right now. Because I've kind of put the onus on me because maybe it is me. I don't know. Maybe it's just an insecurity. Maybe I'm being triggered. Maybe it's not something you're doing. Maybe you don't even realize what you're doing, but I'm feeling insecure. And can we sit down and talk about it so that we can feel more connected? Because right now I feel disconnected and I don't know if it's something you're doing, but I am feeling a little insecure. And then you can get into what you think it might be

happening or maybe if you have some notes. But even that, I think, goes a long way to not triggering our partners. Because it's like, as soon as we sit down, I've done this a million times it's like oh i'm upset so i'm gonna try to you know say it in a way to not pick a fight but as soon as i say hey i'm upset and here's what you're doing immediately your partner just gets defensive you're just you know it's and all of a sudden that's when all the you know we've all been in fights where it's just like how did this this start to end in a fight? I was literally trying not to fight, you know, but when we feel attacked, we want to defend ourselves. And so we just have to try to figure out a way to communicate our frustrations without triggering or attacking

our partner. And I think when we lead with, Hey, this is something I'm feeling insecure about. Can we talk about it together? Then not now you feel like a team. Now you feel like you're trying to tackle a project together. And that project is how do we get more connected? Because one of us is feeling disconnected and it's not necessarily anyone's fault. But if the, if the group, the group being you two has this common goal of just trying to feel more, you know, trying to feel connected to one another. And again, like whether it's physical touch, whether it's words of affirmations, if you guys discuss each other's love languages,

it's always good to hear how you feel loved, but how you give love. And you need to know how Will receives love because how he receives love, I'm guessing, is probably very different than how you receive love. And I think in relationships, we make that mistake of, well, this is how I feel loved. So I'm going to,

this is how I'm going to love on the other person. And they're just like, well, I don't like, I don't, it doesn't work for me, you know? So we have to try to meet in the middle of giving our partners what they need. And we didn't know how they receive that love because too many of us think,

well, I like to be hug and I like to be held. So I'm going to hold them and hug them. And some people are like, yeah, that doesn't do anything for me. You know, I'm a bit suffocated, you know? So I think just getting on the same page there, it goes a long way as well. Definitely. We're all about the love languages. Awesome. Well, so what could Will say, or I mean, the holding you, acknowledging you, but if Will, like say, if he recognizes you're upset, or even if you need to say, hey, babe, I'm just feeling a little down, can you be there next to me? What is something that also he could say that would meet your needs without necessarily getting into it? Like, would it be helpful if he said, I'm here to listen? Or, you know, do you want to talk about it? Like, what would be something that he could say to you that would make you feel like he cares, you know, without necessarily, you know, doing something a

friend might want to do? Because ironically, for someone who's so good at empathy, you're having a hard time empathizing with the fact that it doesn't come easy to Will. Yeah, that's a really good point. Two things come to mind for me. First of all, and I think I expressed this to Will last week, but as far as what he can say, if he doesn't necessarily understand or can relate, I think I told him just to say, Hey, like, I love you no matter what. And I think, I think I believe in you. I think is what I said. I love you. And I believe in you. And I was like, just those words will make me feel really positive right now and happy because, you know, I know in life, what really matters is him and my relationships and my health. And so just hearing that he loves me no matter what, and that he believes in me means the world. So that's kind of the biggest thing and the thing he can say immediately. The other part of my brain, I think that when

somebody asks me questions, it makes me feel like they care. Like if I'm going through a hard time and they ask me questions about it, I feel like they care. So I think those are kind of the two different approaches, depending on if he's got the gas in the tank to ask some questions and try to get to the bottom and understand it or if he just wants to say hey you know what i love you no matter what and i believe in you i think those are two things that would help me is that is that doable well absolutely um one of my favorites that i try to use when i remember it and um you know my my favorite thing to ask is you know would you like support or solutions and yeah so that way I can kind of helps me understand before we get into it yeah I think I do my best I think that's great and again I need that

too honestly like I I know I've learned how to be much more empathetic in my life and I do this every week and talk to a lot of people but like even in my relationship I do need often like Natalie to let me know like what she needs in that moment because I sometimes don't know. I don't know if she just wants me to listen. I don't know if she wants me to like gas her up and support her, you know, because sometimes I feel like, oh, I, me gassing her up or me, you know, asking her questions, I think I sometimes inadvertently go into solution mode, right? And then that can come across as dismissive or to what she's feeling in the moment. So Holly, it's okay that he does that without you being

disappointed that he doesn't know which one you want in the moment? No, actually, it's funny because it's been a little while since he's used that one. And I actually, we got engaged after like six months. And I actually remember kind of my first spiral when we were dating and he asked me, do you want support or solutions? And I remember just being like, oh my gosh, he's the one, like he knew exactly what to say. So I actually really like that. I feel like it's been a little while since that's been his question. So yeah, let's bring that back. All right. That's great. Yeah. That's been really helpful for me to like literally ask, like, what is it you need in this moment? Because I have been the person who's made the mistake of

thinking that I know, and then I make it worse. And then I get frustrated because I'm trying, and then it feels like my efforts are wasted. And then I get frustrated because I'm trying. And then it feels like my efforts are wasted. And then you feel disconnected. Oh, yeah. There was one time I was crying and spiraling. And I remember he didn't ask me that. And he told me to be a better prioritizer or to learn how to prioritize. And I was like, ah, you know. So, yeah, no, I think that's spot on. Yeah, well, I've told a partner wants to fix the feelings. So, you know, so yeah, no, I think that's spot on. Yeah, well, I've made, I told a partner once to fix the feelings. So there was that. They're just like, I feel this and I feel that.

And I'm like, well, fix your fucking feelings. Yeah, I got in trouble. And it landed. It did not land. Yeah, you told me to learn how to prioritize and execute. I was like, oh my gosh, you better walk away right now. Yeah, he told me to learn how to prioritize and execute. I was like, oh my gosh, you better walk away right now. Yeah. Well, I'll be emailing you in a month or so, a few weeks just to see how you're doing. And please keep us updated if you have like kind of a breakthrough moment or if

there are any other challenges that arise and like we're so invested. You guys are so lovely and we can't wait to hear from you yeah we'll definitely we'll definitely keep you updated um and thank you so much for letting us come on and talk through this i think you guys gave us such good advice that we can work with and um yeah we'll be excited to give you an update on how some of those tools and um little language hacks you guys gave us i appreciate it thanks a lot guys thank you thanks so much no problem good for good Good for you guys for looking at. You're a handsome couple.

So I'll be keeping it working out. Thank you. All right. I got you. I think you and Natalie are awesome. And I just love your book. And I listen to every episode of the podcast. And Ellie and Amanda, y'all are so cool too.

And I'm just like big, big fans of you guys. I talk about you all the time to Ben. All the time. Oh my gosh. I appreciate it. So happy to have you. Penn, thanks for enduring us. We appreciate it, buddy.

Yeah, and quit setting the bar so high. I do hear about it all day, every day. Oh, McNich's the most emotionally intelligent man in the world. Well, I think at home, I don't always nail it. You know, so it's much easier when you're not involved. So, yeah. like i said i honestly

uh haley very few guys are doing what penn did right here so he came on yeah i'm so impressed he clearly cares and that i think knowing how much he cares i think would go a long way for you because you know that's you know and and and that's his authenticity you know because it's never going to come as natural to him as it does to you and that that's okay because that's part of who he is and it might go a long way too i need to write that down for you is to find the time to maybe uh go out of your way to let Penn know what you appreciate about him. Yeah. You know, I do think that's something in relationships that men have a hard time acknowledging,

but it goes a long way. Like, I think men just want to feel appreciated and valued. And I think sometimes we're used to, you know, we're used to getting notes and we take notes where, you know, especially if we have an athletic background, we respond to coaching. But like every once in a while, we could use a pet on the back and pats on the back go a long, long way. I don't know. Just a thought.

Yeah. No, that's a great thought. Yeah, that's a great thought. And this today was everything for me. I'm going to be very good about that. This just means the world. All right. Well, good luck you two.

Appreciate you calling in. Look forward to you guys giving us an update in the future. Yeah. Thank you so much. And thank you for having us on again. It was a huge honor. I'm going to be on a high for a while. Well, appreciate you both coming on.

Yeah. Thank you. All right. Take care. Appreciate it. All right. Bye-bye. A question I have for people in the comments is, do you have an example of a really effective

middle ground? Because when you said that, I was like, oh, my God, yeah. There was this one time I was really upset, and my boyfriend didn't know what to say, but he just started kind of, like, rubbing my feet, like, really tenderly. And I was like, you know, it was like pressure. Like, it was like a really...

Yeah, I don't know if we give our partners enough credit for caring. Yeah. I think it comes from, like you know like i think it's so often when i yeah whenever i'm like oh wow was i being a little too pessimistic or like something i talk so much about my relationship is like giving him better the better the doubt when i'm not doing it's always because i'm like scared and yeah no it's sometimes we're you know we're afraid of saying the wrong thing or fucking up or making a bad situation worse, you know? Yeah.

But yeah, like I said, I, Natalie and I have found that just the, the goal of staying connected and using that language, Hey, I'm feeling disconnected or I'd like to be more connected to you helps because it's, it may, it's less about, you know, then you're no longer like in, in fights. You're not like trying to win or lose the fight. You know, when you're, hey, I feel this and I want you to do this to make me feel differently. Then it becomes about like arguing about like leverage or like negotiation of like, or hey, I want to feel more connected. How can we feel more connected?

And so maybe it's not about like the fight itself. You're just like, you know, also like hold hands or like have some physical touch while you're arguing or discussing things. It calms you. You feel literal, a physical connection with your partner. Your, you know, tensions can lower. Literally, just physical touch can lower our heart rates and things like that.

You take a breath, you know, and then you feel like there's a common goal between the two of you rather than you're trying to win this fight and feel validated by winning. You know, I don't know. Totally. A couple little things. Amazing. This podcast is brought to you by BetterHelp. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey, we all love therapy or, well, we certainly advocate for it on this show. Obviously, taking care of your mental health first and foremost starts with you. No one's

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is shooting his shot, and I don't really know what to do. Okay. I guess first question, as far as the long-term relationship, it's only a month old. How's your heart? How are you doing? Are you over it? Are you still heart? How are you doing? Are you over it? Are you still processing? Where are you at with that? I think I'm actually pretty over it. And I think I was over it for the last month or so of it. It just took me a long time to get the

courage to end the relationship, if we're being honest. Okay. And the friend who's shooting their shot, who is this friend? What are your thoughts on them? Is it you don't know what to do because you're not sure how you feel? Or you don't know what to do because you know how you feel and you don't know how to let them off without breaking their soul? I actually feel like I do like this person. And I probably have for a while longer than i've cared to admit i don't care to admit but since i was dating someone i just kind of shoved all of those feelings aside so this is actually more surprising to me okay that he has been kind of acting this

way what's the breakup so then what's what's he what what is the thing that you're worried about the most so he i'm trying like, think of like the background. I, so he hasn't actually said how he feels, but there's just a lot of actions that are showing that he feels this way. And it's a little bit more difficult because he also just moved to a different city. It's in the neighboring state. Um, but he's coming back at the end of the month and he was like, I want to take you out to dinner.

But it's like, is that a friend dinner? Is that a date? You asked that? Things have kind of changed. Yeah. What do you say? He asked that to me. Oh, he's like, is this a friend dinner or a date?

He goes, I want to take you out to dinner. You're like, cool. Yeah. And then he's like, is this a friend dinner or a date? And then what'd you say? No, I know he hasn't said that. That's what I'm kind of wondering. Like, is this a date or is this this a friend dinner or a date? And then what'd you say? No, I know he hasn't said that. That's what I'm kind of wondering. Like, is this a date or is this just a friend dinner?

Okay. So what are the things he's doing that make you feel like he's shooting his shot? Because, I mean, I could argue that the friend is this being a friend and saying, hey, hey, you just broke up with your long-term boyfriend. I want to make sure you're feeling okay. Let's go to dinner and talk about it and catch up. So the week that I broke up with my boyfriend, there's a sequence of events that happen. So I broke up with my boyfriend on a Monday. And on Tuesday night, he called me, which is fine. I was

like, okay, not a big deal. Just checking in to see how I'm doing. Wednesday, we went to dinner with us and our other friend. And then not a big deal doing. Wednesday, we went to dinner with us and like our other friend. And then not a big deal either. Thursday, he texted me and he was like, I'm at the bar across the street from your place. Like come over. And so I went over and then we just like hung out and it was friendly. He was like, I'll see you tomorrow. And then in my mind, I'm like, I'm not going to see you tomorrow because that's your last

day in our city and your parents are coming in at nighttime. So like, that's probably not going to happen. And then on that afternoon, that Friday afternoon, he texted me asking what I was doing. And he was like, I want to drop something off for you. And I'm also going to go pick up some food from this very specific place and bring it to you if you haven't eaten. And I was like, yeah, that sounds good. Like whatever. And he said, okay, but I don't want to eat. He was like but i don't want to eat he was like i don't want to eat at a restaurant and so i'm kind of thinking okay do you want me to invite you to my place to come in like sure so invite him to come in he like brings all the food and then we

start the thing that he gives me is his old soccer jersey from the same country that both of our families are from which is like kind of not weird but like kind of random and then he also is asking me questions like that no other guy friends have just asked me things like what does it look like when someone's trying to put effort in with you like what does your ideal relationship look like um like some other personal things like my dad passed away not that long ago when he was like what was your dad like like i wish i would have gotten to meet him um and then he gave me a kiss on the cheek when he was leaving and then so then he left to miami the next day and also he spent like his last hours in our city with me and like our other guy friends didn't see him since wednesday night and he's been like texting me like non-stop sending me

gym selfies saying like come move to the city that i'm in um like you can stay with me things like that okay i mean this all sounds very yeah it all sounds very promising i mean but what what was your relationship with him beforehand is he like known as this kind of empathetic guy who you know like for me like i was always the friend. I think I, I'm sure in the past, indirectly led a lot of my women friends on, potentially. I was always very quick to talk about other women. I got very good at making it very clear that this was a friendship with women

I was friends with when I was younger, or certainly in my 30s, but when I was younger, or like certainly in my 30s, but when I was younger, maybe less mindful. But I always liked talking about relationships. I always liked asking these types of questions, and I always liked going out of my way for friends and doing nice things I cared about, certainly friends in need.

So my question to you is like, is this a change in his behavior, or has he always kind of been the friend who does these types of things with people? I mean, he's always been a really good friend. But it's just a lot more now. It's just odd to me that he's wanting to talk so much. He's like, I went to go visit a medical school the other day because I'm going to start school in the fall again. And he was like, he remembered that I was going like, I don't even remember telling him like when and where I was going.

And he was like, I want to hear all about it. Like text me when you're done for the day or give me a call. So it's like, he's always been a good friend, but this behavior is new. Like the amount of, I feel like attention is new. Huh? Well, I mean, listen, all you can really do is you know find out so my question then is like how do i like if we when we go get dinner i feel like it has to be brought up because now it's just like this like no one's really saying anything about how they feel and i don't want to talk about it over text right so how like what would that kind of look like well i i don't know

i don't think there's a perfect way right because i i see why in person makes a ton of sense but all of a sudden you can be in person and i could feel like well what if what if i put myself out there at dinner and i don't get the, you know, it's, it also can add to the pressure, you know, I'm not trying to psych you out, but, um, you know, something over text might give them an opportunity to marinate on something as well. Um, okay. I wouldn't be opposed to that. Yeah.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way. I mean, you clearly have rapport with this guy. You have a familiarity. You guys know each other's tone and sarcasm. So, you know, like a great if you want to do in a person. I'm just saying, like, I don't I don't I don't think you should feel like, oh, well, this is not something I can text because X, Y or Z. Okay. What would you what what what feels most comfortable to you? z okay what would you what what what feels most comfortable to you i mean probably texting just because i feel like it's just when he's coming it's still just like a few weeks away so it's been difficult to kind of sit in this unknown i feel like situation about how we feel what if you made it into a game like you asked him a question it sounds like he likes asking you deep thoughtful questions and what if to prime this you know you could have some fun with this for a while

you know like you could say you know like what is like what is the secret you've been holding that you have been dying to, you know, get out and admit to? It could be pretty on the nose and see if he takes the bait. Yeah. You know, maybe have you, let me ask you this. Have you been reciprocating some of these behaviors? Right. For example, you're saying it's just a lot. He's doing all

these things. Are you reciprocating your actions? Are you, like the type of questions you're asking, are you paying more attention to him? Are you deliberately making him more of a priority that he could be picking up on the same thing? I know last week, I feel like I have been. Okay. Like asking more questions. Like he sent me a few selfies. I was like, okay, I guess I'll send you a selfie too. Okay. Yeah. Do more of that. I think just kind of, just maybe you do that too.

You know, start acting like this is a guy you met on a dating app and you really like and how would you flirt with a guy that you know you started matching with and see if there's a build there you know okay mentally kind of protect yourself that like you don't have an answer but like you're just and as we've as we know guys can often act like a boyfriend but not want to be a boyfriend you know and it does does this guy have from what you know does this guy have fuck boy potential no like when for how long we've known him he hasn't really been seeing anyone and has like kept that if he has he's kept it like super private hasn't told anyone but um there's like not that i can even like imagine any fuckboy energy now. What if you like sent him a random text that said something like, you've been the best part of these past few weeks for me?

Okay, I would do that. Yeah. Then you're putting the ball in his court as opposed to, you know, trying to pull something out of him. It's kind of like leading with a compliment. You'll get more out of him. Yeah. I mean, so there's just little things that if a compliment. You'll get more out of them. Yeah. I mean, so there's this little things that you,

if he's doing all these things, you could reciprocate and see if that kind of leads to. And I mean, again, like the question of like, Hey, you start playing like random questions and be like, Hey,

I got a question for you. What's a secret that you've been keeping because you're too afraid to admit i would do that especially just because yeah i feel like just some i mean not a ton of if you're really bold weeks has passed if you're really bold you could you could say you could say you could ask that question and go i'll go first i have feelings for you or i've been thinking about you more than just friends lately why not why not why not that's the best because you can be bold and you don't have to you're don't have to be there in person with him you don't have to face him yeah i'd be like you know i have feelings for you or i've been i've been thinking about you more than just friends recently and then if and then if he gives you the whole like oh wow really i didn't know like

what um thanks for sharing but you could be like then you have the right to be like then just you know don't get mad but just be like you know this doesn't change how i necessarily like i wouldn't say well i am confused because i honestly thought confused because I honestly thought you know do you always send selfies or you know like okay or one day you could text him and say am I nuts or are we

in love with each other or like are we falling for each other yeah you could just kind of be goofy break the ice I mean listen if he likes you it that confidence will go a long way and okay if you're off about this then you have a reason to be like WTF. Kinda,

you know? Yeah. Okay. Um, so I'm about, I'm at the airport. I'm about to go on a girl's trip. And so he's been like,

he's been texting me and like, you know, I haven't responded. I'm about to be with my friends for a week on the beach. So maybe just, just text him that maybe when I get back, like think, take the week to like

kind of think about it when i'm with like not talking to him or what do you think i can't think of a better place or occasion to send a risky text yeah than with my girlfriends drinking yeah that sounds perfect i mean unless unless there's a chance that this like ruins the vacay if you don't get the answer you want that's the only downside but the upside is you do you are with your girlfriends you are on a beach and who knows by the end of the week you guys might be exchanging nudes that's always fun yeah and if all yeah okay i think you're right what if what if you're going for i'm gonna do that literally tonight what if what if you're going for romantic and he goes full guy on you and you're like, what's the

secret you've been holding? He's like, well, I've been dying to see you naked. Would you be happy with that? Or would you be bummed about that? I think I would actually be happy about that. There we go. It's embarrassing to admit, but it's not embarrassing. It's not embarrassing.

It's flattering. It's flattering. Yeah. Okay. Here's what you do. Here's what you do. Here's what you do. Okay.

Tomorrow, you're going to go for it. Tonight, you're going to land, and you're going to put on the best bathing suit you brought, and you're going to take a sexy selfie mirror and just be like, hey, what do you think of my new bathing suit? I just got it. I'm dying to know what you think.

Yeah, that's what I said. I got a new bathing suit. Dying to know what you think of my new bathing suit i just got it i'm dying to know what you think yeah that's what i say i got a new bathing suit dying to know what you think of it and then tomorrow hit them with the question okay i like it all right sounds good you have to tell us how this goes please we're dying to find out i will all right i mean either way i'll find out my answer. Right. Yeah. All right. Well, good luck. And so now he's long distance, though. It would be. Yeah. One bit of advice I have for you, if he responds, you know, in kind, is that don't let like

don't let him be wishy washy. Like, I think you come into this with fairly high expectations for the both of you. It's kind of like, all right, if we're going to do this, like we need to do this. you it's kind of like all right if we're gonna do this like we need to do this i don't want to like we know each other long enough like let's fucking do it right because there is a long distance element to it yeah it's gonna take you guys both like really going for it and you know i think you you just say hey if we're gonna do this you know we you can still take it slow but you you need to be intentional. And I think you put that expectation out there that if you're going to do this with each other, that you want both of you to be intentional with going out of your way. Because I don't want this

to turn into some sort of like, let's just date for six months or let's see where it goes. This is going to be a risk. And that's's the energy you want to bring so anytime he's just like well I don't want to like risk anything and be like hey life's full of risks and this is worth a risk to me so we're going to do this or we're not be very kind of especially if he's like if he

lets you know that he's also interested I think you go pretty definitive in terms of your expectations don't be wishy-washy. Don't put the ball in his court. Be very clear about what you want and be very matter-of-fact and come across as a person who knows what they want and what you want is him. And if he's not willing to meet your expectations, you're not afraid to say no to him.

Okay. I appreciate that yeah i i want he can drive as well but i want you be willing to drive this relationship if regardless of what he wants to do early on lead by example so to speak all right sounds good good luck have fun on your trip let us know yeah let us know what what uh how this plays out. Juneshine. I absolutely adore their hard kombucha. I think it is so good. When I found out they came out with canned cocktails, we're talking margaritas, we're talking vodka sodas, we're talking rum cocktails that have 8 to 10 percent. So it's 8 to 10 percent ABV, which is approximately 1.5 shots. So it's like properly a cocktail like you would get at a bar. And it's made with premium ingredients that taste amazing. Hopefully

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Find out why critics and audiences alike are raving about the Emmy award-winning series. why critics and audiences alike are raving about the Emmy award-winning series. The New York Times is calling it a murder mystery with clothes to die for and Vox adding that it should be your new reality TV obsession. We are certainly obsessed. Stream every episode of Traders Now only on Peacock. How's it going? Good. Hi, Nick. My name is Abby. I'm 30 years old and I'm in love with two guys and need help choosing between emotional connection and sexual chemistry. Okay. So you're in love with two guys or are we like two guys?

I would say more like falling in love. Like it's definitely there. I think I need to choose one to get to like that next step. How long have you been seeing these guys? For five months. Are they aware of one another? Yes, like in a respectful manner. So I've been very open and transparent from the very beginning that I wasn't looking for anything too serious. So they know I'm dating somebody else, but they don't know like necessarily the depth of my feelings or who

those people are. But they're both aware that you've been... They're both under the impression that they're dating you for five months and that you've also been dating one other person or that you're also just dating? That I'm dating another person. And to add a layer to it is although it's been five months and I do talk to them on a daily basis, these are long distance situations. So I've only really like physically have seen them, you know, maybe once or twice a month. I love the fuckboy energy. I'm just fucking with you. No, because I've been very honest.

I feel like that's not like... Fuckboys. Totally fuckboy. Fuckboys can be very honest. In fact, fuckboys are often honest. Because otherwise they're players. Yeah. Well, to give some context, maybe this will help.

I was in a pretty pretty toxic six year relationship that I ended about two and a half years ago. And so I really took like, the last couple years, I didn't date at all, I really like put that time into kind of fulfilling, like aspirations that I wanted to accomplish. And so it wasn't until about like 6 months ago that I really started dating. And because I'm 30, that 6-year relationship like ate up most of my 20s. So I've never really like dated. So I really wanted to have the opportunity to like be open to new connections and not necessarily like dive into the deep end with the first nice guy I met. Does that make sense? You don't have to explain yourself.

It's okay. Okay. I like teasing you, but it's, it's still fuck boyish. It's okay. Listen, it's fine.

Okay. Whatever. It's fine. Listen, it's I'll own it.'ll own it i don't think yeah fuck boy you know it's whatever what is um bringing you to feeling like you need to make a decision um so one part is that i am like really falling for both men and like i really want to devote my time and energy into growing one relationship because this isn't me.

Like, I don't really particularly like dating two guys, although it's been beautiful. It's also very exhausting. And then and ironically, in recent conversations, they both have brought up that they're developing deep feelings for me and want to move into an exclusive relationship. So I feel like it's all just kind of coming to a head. I'm assuming each of these men feel like they are without question in the driver's seat and don't know the full scope of your feelings towards the other. That would be true. Yeah. And not that like, I'm trying to be dishonest about it, but I also like want to respect their boundaries and their feelings. Sure. Yeah. And that's it. It's so it's not cut and dry here. And so one, you just

really love their dick and the other one, you really love their heart or like, what do we? Yeah. It's they're both like incredible guys. So they both like really hold a lot of characteristics and values that I really cherish in someone. However, like when I'm really trying to decipher one, I just have more of a emotional connection with, as in like, I feel like we've had deep convert, deeper conversations. Like I can be super unfiltered, just really raw. But like the sex is kind of vanilla.

Not that I'm unsatisfied, but it's just not like he's not adventurous in that department. Have you tried to be adventurous with him? Yes. You have? Yes. How does that go? To be adventurous with him? Yes.

You have? Yes. How does that go? That's kind of where I think where I just kind of got like discouraged because, yeah, when I did, you know, playfully bring up, oh, maybe we try this or do this. It was like an immediate no. Really? And so I don't want to push somebody outside their comfort zone. But I also like what was the thing you tried um a vibrator okay so you suggested to incorporate a vibrator

into the bedroom and he immediately said no yeah he wasn't even like open to trying it it's a huge red flag which i understand if you try it don't like it but i feel like literally not even about him i find it to be insanely ridiculous does he have a little dick no actually really and that's like if the sex is just different it's like it is very passionate and romantic and i am you know like i do like climax however like your girl just wants to be like tossed around and thrown up against the wall a little bit you know and i feel like he doesn't have the capabilities to do that however i've never felt more of like my authentic self with someone than i do with him orgasming for men is just so fucking easy most of the time.

Right. And for, for women, it is far more nuanced. I just think all men need to be mindful of that and, and open to that. And they don't have to understand it. They just have to know that that's just a fact of life, that they are not made,

you know, biologically and, and their, you know, their sex, sexual drives and desires and needs are met very differently than women. And for any guy to just shoot that down, to me, that's a red flag about a partner's willingness to be openminded and work through and meet your needs and prioritize your needs like over insecurity yeah you know because it's wild to me when he's so like okay with having this open relationship so it's wild to me that he's so timid um about things like that have you asked him when he's sort of down you were just like can i just ask you why you're so against this yeah you're you know what that's actually a great piece of advice is to ask him because i really haven't even batman needed robin's help sometime

you know every every superhero has a great sidekick you know it's it's literally not about him you know but he can he can he can allow the both of you to make it about each other you can literally use a vibrator in the bedroom for you two to connect in different ways you know and i couldn't agree more and i feel like that's what's happening with this other guy is that there is so much openness and so much adventure there that we're like really connecting in a different way. Yeah. How, how is, uh, Mr. No vibrator, how is he outperforming Mr. Vibrator and, and the emotional connection? Like where, where is Mr. Vibrator and the emotional connection? Like where is Mr. Vibrator falling short? I think I'm like just finding myself to be more filtered around sexy man guy. And like I just, we haven't gotten to those super deep conversations that I have with this other guy.

or deep conversations that I have with this other guy. However, we do have very deep and open conversations about sex, which is lacking from this other gentleman. So it's literally the exact opposite. Okay. And have you tried with sex guy to talk about other things? I mean, again, going deep and then going deep is to me, it's interesting because, you know, Hey, I want to have a deep emotional connection with someone, but that doesn't always mean the ability to like have deep, you know, philosophical conversations.

Like for example, like, you know, Natalie and I have great conversations, but like, I'm definitely more inclined to want to be more philosophical about things than Natalie and when we first started dating that wasn't necessarily something that kind of drove our relationship yeah it wasn't that we just sit there and got you know we didn't go you know hiking and look at the stars and talk about the meaning in life all the time you know what I'm saying? As our relationship evolved, as we become more and more comfortable with each other and really gotten to know who each other's are,

that has kind of blossomed and taken care of itself. I have met other women that I didn't even necessarily date that right off the bat, we would just really get into it. So that doesn't necessarily mean compatibility and love in one aspect that means you're compatible but i guess what i'm saying is both sex can evolve and both like ability to connect emotionally can involve too exactly yeah that's kind of my dilemma well so let's look at other things other aspects right

because in a relationship what are what are things in a relationship that are important to you? Like, how do you want to be loved? Right. Which is like what they both, like they both equally have these same like qualities that I really value. Like what are they? What are they? Um, somebody that is kind um intelligent adventurous um outgoing um supportive um flexible yeah i mean yeah yes um honest i think secure openness is really important. Yeah. So how is non-sex guy adventurous? I think in like the things that we do, he's very spontaneous. So like when we do get together, yeah, just like he's very outdoorsy. And so am I. So he's adventurous in life, but not in the bedroom.

Who do you have the most fun with? I honestly, probably sexy man. But I think that that's like, I mean, the sex is super fun. So that's like an additional layer to it. What do you have fun doing with sexy man that doesn't include having sex? We love to cook together. We love to like dance. We love to like dance we love to travel okay that's great yeah yeah okay i mean i just like basically have fun with him no matter what i could be in a cardboard

box with him and like have fun sex guy yeah and what about non-sex guy what do you what do you enjoy doing with him um well we enjoy enjoy mountain biking and hiking, camping, going to shows and concerts together. He's a little more bougier, so he likes to go out to nice dinners and stuff like that. What do you dislike? But I love our conversations. I'm intoxicated by our conversations. love our conversations. Like I'm intoxicated by our conversations. Um, like,

and I just like love like how comfortable I am. I love like our witty banter that we have. Like he just understands my humor. Like he, he appreciates my raunchy cheesy jokes compared to sexy man. Does that make sense? Okay. So,

and that makes you feel more seen in that department? Or you just like that he does that? It makes me feel more understood. Or like he understands my sense of humor and personality. I feel more desired in that way by the other guy. And does the sex man not make you feel... Does he make you feel like he doesn't understand or for whatever reason not sex guy i feel like he is like he just he just early on

he made you feel like he got you right away so then you were more willing to open up where you know the sex guy never really kind of green lighted it. So you just decided not to show him that aspect. I mean, that can actually be very true. Cause I did, I mean, I met them both very similar times, but I didn't meet like sex to me on like a couple of weeks after. So I did like, I was connecting with the emotional guy a couple of weeks before I connected with the other one. Who do you think or know responds to disappointment better? Have you seen either of them not get their way? I have. Yeah. They're both, they're both business guys. So I've definitely seen them like stressed out. I've seen them. Yeah.

When like things aren't going good. And I honestly think sexy man handles it better. He's like, that's where I'm getting stuck at is where I feel like with sexy man, it's like kind of not fluff, but I feel like it's all like lovey dovey, happy, happy. And then with this emotional guy, it's like we can actually like just really be honest about like what we're feeling or does that make sense sure but why haven't you tried that with the other guy i mean i have i just feel like that is not like our relationship i feel like our relationship is just like very like i don't know like positive and like your relationship shine and rainbows

kind of whatever you know which i know is not like gonna be forever yeah well your relationship can be whatever you make it and i guess do you know the answer to the if i said hey what's the what's the possibility of the chances that part of your struggle that you're facing now is that you're you're basically have created a super boyfriend in these two guys and your emotional needs are being met by one guy. And so you feel less pressure to insist that those needs be met with the other guy and vice versa with the sex. So it's like,

well, you know, you know, guy a, he doesn't like, he doesn't want to use a vibrator. Like that's annoying, but like I still get to do it with guy B and guy B it's just like, well, you know guy a he doesn't like he doesn't want to use a vibrator like that's annoying but like

i still get to do it with guy b and guy b it's just like well you know we have fun and we have to do this and like i if he brought it up oh i would love it if he wanted to go deep with me and he just instigated a conversation but he he doesn't instigate so like you know it would be i don't want to force the issue and I don't want to, you know, ruin our pattern. And it's less, there's less urgency on your part because, you know, guy A is already doing that. That's actually a very, very valid point.

Yeah. Because you have, do you have any reason? Because we know, we know that you tried to incorporate a vibrator and got shot down by guy, by guy A. Do we know if you've tried to incorporate deeper conversations, at least on some level, and felt shot down by guy B? Yeah, no. I mean, we have had deep conversations. Again, not as deep as the emotional guy, but I haven't felt shot down. So I don't know why I'm being timid and maybe bringing up some of those harder conversations. I say this as a guy who loves to have deep philosophical conversations. I think they're nice

and they're fun and they're really cool. But i don't know if they're what keeps a relationship going and i think a lot of people have a skill set like that that can fall short in other areas that's just like a general thought on that because i think you know deep people who are willing to have deep conversations they're not necessarily easy to find so when they do they can feel very intoxicating you know because they are hard to find and there's plenty of people who are willing to do it but they're not like especially with men i think you can you know there's it's a skill set to want to do that right but that doesn't necessarily make them great partners in other areas and i do think it's a huge

red flag for a guy to shoot something down that is, it's such an easy thing for him to say yes to. He has no reason to say no to it other than he is just unflexible and he is not willing to consider your needs. And he thinks that either what he is providing you should be good enough. That's kind of the energy he's bringing by saying no to that. He didn't say, well, he didn't even like, it was an immediate no. It wasn't like, oh, really?

Like, how would you like to do that? How would you like to incorporate it? Why would you like to incorporate it? How does it make you, you know, for a guy who's used to going deep, why isn't he going deep about why you guys should use a dildo or a vibrator or whatever? Why isn't he going deep on that type of conversation? For sure, which is definitely like was an instant concern. So I am curious to maybe have that conversation with him just to see like what his fears are about it

because yeah maybe there's something I don't know it's a weird thing to have such a hard I know and that's what concerned me I'm like if we can't even get through a vibrator like I you know I just like don't want to be like limited either I want

yeah I want us to like be adventurous because like when you fast forward in a relationship i just never want to i i don't want an immediate note at almost anything especially something that doesn't hurt the relationship you know or you're not asking to do something dangerous or or violate some sort of like personal personal boundary that they have or non-negotiable. And my girlfriend or wife or woman partner wanting to use a sex toy of any kind should never be a non-negotiable. And the fact that it's a non-negotiable for him is concerning.

For sure. I agree. I mean, he's the only one of the two who has demonstrated a red flag. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think they each, I mean, like everybody's not perfect, right? So I think they definitely each have like some other like minor concerns, but like overall, I feel like these are both really solid dreamy guys.

What are, what are the minor concerns? Um, I think, okay. So with like sexy man, um, I mean,

they're long distance situations, which can't last forever either. And so he's really like not willing to budge, um, on leaving where he's at. Okay. That's a big deal. And I own a business, so I can't necessarily like pick up everything and leave. So yeah. So that's also a concern for like future down the line.

It's a fairly big concern. Yeah. So I mean, and I'm not... Well, I think it's because I'm not necessarily like... I'm not a complete no on, like, moving to where he is. But it's just, like, not going to be able to happen in the immediate future because... What's immediate? I'm kind of... What's he do for... I would say probably, like, in the next, like, couple years.

Okay. That's a while. What does he do for work? He's a lawyer. And is he, like, trying to be a partner at a practice no no no but he does work for like a rather large company gotcha and like relocations out of the question yeah what are their ages um they are 32 and 33 okay so what's your gut tell you? Who do you miss more when you're not seeing them? I mean,

my gut really tells me to like go with sexy man, but I just want to be cautious that I'm not like, you know, digmatized. Um, and I also, that was like a big thing that was missing from my previous relationship. Um, and so I just want to be,

yeah, I just want to make sure that I'm thinking with like my head and my heart. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. And to me, it almost sounds like you're too cautious about the sex that you're enjoying and you're judging yourself for potentially being shallow because you like the sex so much. But I heard I could be hanging on a cardboard box with this guy and having fun. Yeah, that's all fair. Yeah.

I think, I do think you guys, you need to really address the long distance with him because you're running a business, you know, and while maybe you could leave in a couple of years, like that's a big fucking deal. Like running and starting a business is really hard to do.

It takes a lot of time and energy. I'm sure you've invested a lot of yourself in this business. And two years of long distance is a lot for any relationship. And so. For sure. You guys. It's worked out great now because we're both so busy with work. So it's really nice.

You also have another boyfriend. So like. It's just like, oh, we're both so busy with work. So it's really nice. You also have another boyfriend. It's just like, oh, he's busy. Yeah. But that is the thing. Yeah. When I'm making a commitment to someone, there's new expectations. And so, yeah. So I just want to...

That is definitely a concern. Because so far, it's been fine. But I don't know how that's going to play out in the future. Here's what I think you should do. I feel like you're leaning towards sexy man, but there's a huge potential problem. That is the long distance. It's also an out on your part.

So I think you go to sexy man and you say, I'm feeling stronger. How you ever want to say that? I start, you know, I'm, I'm really loving what we're doing. I am developing feelings for you.

I think about the potential of a future with you. I hope you feel the same. Let's assume he says, yeah, babe, totes love our time together. And then you say, well,

I mean, let's, can we talk about the elephant in the room which is like if we really do this like if if we commit to each other we stop dating anyone else because like you know what are your what are your long-term relationship goals what are they you do you want to get married do you want i am interested in finding like a person to spend the rest of my life with. I don't know if that is necessarily marriage. Like my aspiration isn't marriage and kids, but it is to find a person. Oh, all right. So you say that, right? I want to be in a committed monogamous relationship with one person. I want to build in that relationship. And I really like what we're

doing so far, but we're long distance. And as much as I like what we're doing, like this has been working out for us now because we're not in an exclusive relationship. We are both busy, you know? And so our ability to kind of see each other when it fits our schedules is kind of been the perfect recipe for us. But realistically, if we both decide to prioritize each other more

and really focus on this relationship and try to build on this are this long distance is to become more of an issue and can we have a conversation about what that looks like you know and you need to see whether he's this you know if he's willing to have the conversation. Because he might say, like, hey, listen, babe, like, this is great. But, like, at the end of the day, like, I'm not moving. And so, like, I just don't know if I really see us getting more serious unless you live here. Because, like, I don't really want to be in a long. I think you just need to have.

I think you need to. This could be your first deep conversation. be in a long, I think you just need to have, I think you need to, this could be your first deep conversation. And I think you need to have some very clear answers because right now, again, like the long distance has, has worked because of these other variables, some of which you're willing to get rid of or need to get rid of to advance this relationship. But you're going to start having greater expectations. You're going to want more from him.

You're going to be relying on him more to meet those emotional needs that this other guy is really picking up the slack. And what happens when he's too busy or too unavailable or he's too busy being a lawyer and you don't get to see him for a few weeks? How are you guys going to stay connected in a relationship? And you need to be able to have this conversation with him. And that conversation, I think, can go a long way to helping you determine whether this guy can work out. If he says all the right things, I think maybe you have your choice. If he,

if you guys come to a standstill where it's just like, well, this makes me really sad because he's like, Hey, I think you're great. great but like i just don't know realistically how i could move with my big corporate lawyer job maybe that helps give you an answer you know and then and then you if if it turns out sexy man's it's not your guy because long distance there's no you can't figure out a solution to your long distance problem because long distance is a temporary solution like it can work you know nanny and i's relationship your long distance problem because long distance is a temporary solution like it can work you know nanny and i's relationship started long distance it can be a lot of fun in the beginning it's so great to miss each other you know but over time you need to find a way to make

it you know not long distance and then if sexy guy doesn't work out because you can't find a solution to long distance you can go back to mr i hate vibrators and and just say hey can i talk about this you know i and i think you could i think you have the right to say it if i'm being honest like i was a little caught off guard that you shot you were so unwilling to have a conversation about this and i'd love to talk about why or i'd love to understand why there's also option three, which is neither of these guys are your guy. That you met two really nice guys

and their ability to balance each other out makes both of them seem better than they are. That's a fair point and definitely crossed my mind as well. Because I think in a good way, they both have a big red flag you know sex guy it's not so much his red flag it's just maybe the situation you know and maybe it could be a compatibility thing it's just like hey as much as we like each other like our our lives

are not lined up and i need someone who can line up with my life you know it's still a red flag for the relationship the other guy has more specific red flag to him, but maybe like he can grow from this. This is like, hey, sex is important to me. I want to have a healthy sex life with my partner. And that includes the ability to have flexibility and open conversations and the willingness to kind of say yes and try things. You know, I want to be adventurous in bed. And as long as I'm not like, no,

you're not asking him to like have you strap on a dildo. And you know, he's like, yeah, I don't want someone to fuck me in the ass. Like, you know, that's,

he would have the right to say no to that. But like, this isn't anything you're asking to do to him. You're not asking him to like be okay with anything that he has, you know, this is you doing something for yourself and him finding a way to support that and incorporate that and be okay with having a sidekick. You know, it's a very reasonable ask. Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm interested like to talk to both of them.

Like, I just kind of want to know why no vibrator guy is so against it. And yeah, because who knows, knows like maybe that will help us grow that part of our relationship i do think you should address one at a time i think you need to stop doing simultaneous relationships because your goal it sounds like is to make a decision and choose one or the other and i think I think we should start with the guy who you think might be slightly in the lead, which is sex guy. And then you try to address this long distance problem.

And that might give you the clarity you need because it's going to get more confusing if you try to tackle it simultaneously and get the answers from both of them that you wanted. Great advice. Yeah. Okay. Lead with everything you like, lead with all the things that excite you about it. State your intentions. I'm definitely open to seeing where this is. I think maybe we're ready to do this, but what does doing this look like for us? Because I have some real concerns about

how are we going to make this work? And you guys, and we'll just figure it out. It's not an acceptable answer. So really like having a plan. Some kind of plan. Yeah. You have to both be able to hold each other accountable because it's a big thing. You're both going to have to make sacrifices. You guys are going to have to get on a plane. You're going to have to spend some money on traveling. You're going to have to invest in this relationship. And you're going to have to have some kind of plan as to how this, what this looks like to not be long distance.

Cause it does take a toll. And the only reason why it's not taking a toll right now is because you have some other guy, um, you know, keeping you company. Yep. Okay.

Fair point. All right. Now I know how I sound like a fuckboy. It's okay. You're allowed to be. I'm just kidding. You're allowed to be a fuckboy every once in a while, you know? Go off, queen. Do not accept I don't do sex toys as an acceptable answer.

Noted. Well, thank you for calling. Please keep us posted. We are dying to know um who you end up with okay we'll do i'll keep you all posted okay thank you thanks for listening guys it's a wild wild week excited that you're with us thank you as always for all the love give us some five stars if you feel like it. We'll see you back tomorrow.