The Viall Files - E593 The Randall Scandal/VPR Discussion with LA Times’ Amy Kaufman

Episode Date: June 6, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Freestyle Edition! Today we are joined by LA Times Investigative Journalist, Amy Kaufman to discuss her expose on Randall Emmett and everything Scandoval. She shares behind the scenes information on writing the article, what was left out of Hulu’s Documentary, The Randall Scandal, and what she’s heard the big reveal in Part 3 of Vanderpump Rules reunion is all about.  “If you have to push the narrative, I don’t buy it.”  Raquel TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jaimeminormcmanus/video/7239175685514759467 Amy’s Articles: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/00000188-35ac-db74-ab9d-37af84c70000-123 https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/randall-emmett-scandal-hulu-documentary-latt-123 Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Shipstation - Go to https://www.shipstation.com/viall for a free 60-day trial! BetterSleep - Improve your quality of life in as little as one week by downloading BetterSleep from your App Store or Google Play.  Nutrafol - Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you go to https://nutrafol.com and enter the promo code VIALLFILES. Paramount - Paramount Plus has your great reality escape! Stream Paramount Plus now. Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @amykinla @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell

you're crazy what's going on everybody welcome back to another impactful episode of the vile files i'm your host nick joined by the household of allyie, Amanda, and Derek, and our very, very special guest today, friend of show, returning to the Vile Files, LA Times reporter, investigative journalist, Amy Kaufman is with us. Everyone, round of applause for Amy. How's it going, Amy? Hi, Nick.

Did I get that right? Yes, you did. Actually, now I'm technically a columnist, I guess. Investigative reporter sounds juicier. I agree. Let's go.

We like that. Okay. We wanted to have Amy here because obviously we are super deep into all things Vanderpump, Scandival,

and anything Vanderpump adjacent, of which the recent documentary on Hulu, Hulu, Hulu, Hulu, Hulu, Randall Scandal. God, these names of these men are so giving when it comes to them being fuck-ups. But we watched it and we saw our friend Amy on it.

Amy has been covering the Randall Emmett scandal really from day one. I mean, you broke the story with you and your colleague. Meg James. Yeah, Meg James. And you have been in the weeds investigating this scandal and Randall Emmett. And it's really credit to both of you for bringing this story to light. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, i do feel a camaraderie with you and that prior to um looking into randall i was not a vanderpump person and now i'm like fully obsessed oh really you're new to it too yes but although i've gone back and watched new seasons i'm i am you're starting i'm episode five of season one i've already and then like i've watched as a

reference point i've watched the reunion of season two because the reunion of season two has the cheating scandal between tom and kristin and so i was trying to get like data points and reference points and then going back and watching season one has just been an absolute trip but yeah going from bachelor i mean you're still a bachelor obsessive but that now another reality show I feel on the same journey with you. It's kind of fun to almost watch it the way I'm watching it. I think for, obviously, if you've been an OG Vanderpump fan, the payoff, this has been a very rewarding season for everyone. But, you know, there's like a lot of movies that will start like in the middle.

Like Pulp Fiction famously kind of starts in the middle, bounces to the beginning, and then there's an end. And like there's a charm in watching, I guess, anything in that way, because you get backstory and things like that. And so it's almost, we love an origin story sometimes. And so watching it from the middle of a story or starting at a season 10 and having the ability to go back and provide yourself with more context. It's kind of fun. Yeah, totally. I know my boyfriend was like, you know what happens though. So why would you watch it from the beginning? I was like,

because I need to know what built these people. And like, especially with Lala in particular, I think if I had watched the show, like as it was actually coming out, I would have a very different opinion of Lala yeah when you get to season four you're gonna be like oh whoa okay and I've heard that right and I have you know being in the reality TV space I've met a handful of Vanderpump people you know it's like we kind of get covered by the same outlets and things like that so there's always a familiarity in terms of the people but but yeah, it's almost, you can, you can be painted an inaccurate brush, you know, you know, when they get caught up in

scandals and things like that. But yeah, I think for the people like Katie and Lala, who personally, and we were talking about this before recorded, like I haven't met every one of the castmates. I mean, I've met most of them, but in terms of personality and people that I find myself more naturally drawn to are without question, Lala and Katie, in terms of how they see the world, you know, not necessarily all their decisions, but just their personality. And I love how Lala and Katie are, you know, they might not always get it right, but they are willing to take a stand for what they believe in. They have conviction. And I think character matters to them more than it matters to the rest of their castmates potentially.

I can see that. Yeah. I think also what I appreciate about reality stars and part of this is like knowing you and other people in the bachelor world. Like the reason I even wanted to write a book about the bachelor, however many years ago was because like when I started meeting people at watch parties or whatever, I was like, Oh, this is really not the vibe I got on the show. And I'm, as you know, judgmental AF. And then I would meet these people and be like, they're cool. I'd hang out with them. Like, and that's definitely how i feel with the vanderpump people too because i'm not gonna lie when i i was never interested in vanderpump rules i was like oh like yeah it seems so catty it seemed like and now we're like i feel i honestly i feel bad that i feel the same way

i've always kind of i felt like i put my nose up to it for whatever yeah of all the realities whatever it's like oh no like whatever and like it turns out like this it's arguably the best reality tv show i think ever i don't know if i go that far but it's very good i just love the the incestuousness of the drama yeah it's there's just so many like call back to watching episode one jack's uh getting a stripper pregnant in vegas and then lying about it and then jack's and stassi fighting for a lot of people like real these are real life scandals that are playing out on tv and i think it's they they were authentic yeah they were authentically messy for sure. But also like I don't know if this struck you watching the first season as much.

I was I remember being to my friend like, I'm sorry, like they are talking about this with their employer. Like it was that concept is I mean, I know that people forget about that now because I don't work there anymore. But the fact that this drama was happening in their restaurant is so wildly unprofessional. Like, it's just insane. Sure. But it was also the premise of the show.

So they kind of had to do that. Yeah, I know. It's just, it was, yeah. But yeah, it's like kind of an HR violation from the get. Like beyond. Yeah. I don't think that would fly now. I don't think you can make the show in that setting now.

That's an interesting point. Yeah. I mean, every atmosphere is a little different. I mean, even our show, it's like we're sex and dating and pop culture. That's true. So it's just like you wouldn't normally talk about sex and dating. We talked about period sex like last Thursday with our boss. That was weird.

I think it actually wasn't weird, which is the weird part about it, was that it didn't feel weird in the moment. Is that we were just like, oh, yeah, we're at work today. But I find myself in those topics to like take a backseat. Yeah. Yeah. As you should. My line of questioning is always a little more papered. Yeah.

Great way to handle it. Do you think, cause like, it seems like for me as someone who scanned of all happened and then going back and watching Vanderpump, like I tend to wait the way characters are now and the way they've been like reacting to everything a lot more than I wait their path selves, where it feels like people who have been more invested in Vanderpump from

like early seasons are like less likely to believe that certain cast members have like changed from the people who made the very same mistakes. And therefore there's like some hypocrisy within the accusations. Do you think that makes a difference of like kind of when people clued in i don't know it is interesting like i think you can even see on the reunion when raquel is saying to james and lala like you guys cheated and then andy's pointing out that all of them have cheated like in some way they're all on level playing field in terms of moral character on that front, I guess. But there are certain things where I do think you should factor in their past behavior. It's an interesting discussion.

I was actually thinking about this prior to you and I talking and then watching back the first season. Again, the first season, for anyone who hasn't watched it yet, spoiler alert, three episodes in to the like the entire franchise jacks taylor is accused of getting a stripper in vegas pregnant which he did which it turns out you know is true i'm like googling it you know just like this isn't being true uh turns out and then just boldface lying to all his friends so much so that Katie and Kristen at the time and Sandoval, no shock and Swartz, no shock, but to be cheated on only to find out that your partner got some stranger pregnant is a level of pain that must hurt much, much more.

Oh, I know. And your best friends believe him. Yeah. And so I'm watching it being like, and this is kind of made me a nice segue into what you kind of wrote about in your piece it's like as crazy as scandival has been you know howie mendel wasn't wrong yeah he didn't do himself any favors not like the questions he asked scandival but howie mendel wasn't wrong by like pointing out just how insane this has all gotten from a national standpoint you know especially in a world now where you have all these streaming services so much content out there

everything is inherently like niche you know it's just you just got to dominate your niche so to speak it's hard to break through to like mainstream conversation and yet this has but jacks taylor convincingly lying about it to all his friends where they shamed the victim in that situation. Stassi. Yeah. Was this kind of part of the story? They all move past things. Yeah.

I mean, they all and there's cheating is so rampant. It's like multiple. All of them do it. Every single one. And so, like, this is probably a very unpopular opinion because. So I'll say a preface with that. very unpopular opinion because so I'll say preface it with that. But I. In terms of like the public shaming, you know, on Watch What Happens Live, when Andy asked Ariana, like, do you think it's gone too far? And she was like, no, I think people are just reacting.

When I was watching the finale, which I agree with Kate Arthur, I think was like the best episode of reality TV I've ever seen. The stakes were so high. Even though Tom Sandoval was overdramatic and selfish and clearly is a deeply troubled and horrible person, something about watching the finale made me feel like, okay, he cheated and he really fucked up. I don't like the driving people to want to harm themselves element of society. It's so intense. We are all humans. But like that, and where Lisa Vanderpump got heat, where Lala calls Sandoval a narcissist. Lisa chimes in, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I actually think it was because she compared him to Randall, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Lala had a, I love Lala's line about like, I couldn't get him to leave.

I couldn't get him to stay when we were together. Now I can't get him to leave, which that point really drove home. I mean, she made a strong point there. That being said, the sad reality is, is that there are so much infidelity out there in the world, right? And we love as individuals

when we fuck up to reference, like, not necessarily excuses, but like reasons. It's like, hey, whatever,

I was going through this or I've experienced some trauma or in Lala's case, hey, listen, I was drinking a lot. Yeah. I was fucked up.

Do you think, question, Raquel has left. don't you know all these rumors she's pregnant she's this she's that she's in a mental did you guys see that tiktok which tiktok of apparently raquel walking in an airport someone said it was raquel and she looks pregnant no where is this well wasn't it her sister was like saying that she was i heard that that raquel's sister was saying that she was over the weekend where she's like staying at grandma's house in Arizona. You'll be able to find it on TikTok.

Yeah. She's like at her grandma's house hiding out because she's pregnant. I don't think she's pregnant. I think those are all just silly rumors. Same, but. But back to my original question to you. All right. James' reasoning, justification or reasoning or explanation at least for his misgivings

is I was 21. I was 22 like every no matter what it was like i was fine you're younger he's younger okay you're drinking but do you actually don't think james has changed very much like sometimes he's very reactive still he says really mean shit yeah like judgmental about people's bodies shit and like just unnecessarily like he doesn't i don't know i think he's funny but i'm like you're not the nicest i i agree with you i do think ali is good for him though let's say what at any point raquel comes back to the public eye instagram whatever however she does

yeah i'm expecting raquel whenever she pops back in the public light to have some sort of diagnosis. I agree. Whatever that is. I don't know. And that may be that... I think that that could be legitimate, though. It might be. But what if that diagnosis is simply like,

I was drinking too much? I mean, Lala, throughout season 10, was referencing Raquel's drinking. And I guess my question to you is, do you think Lala, to her credit, has acknowledged her mistakes and said, hey, but I was fucking drinking. Now I've changed. Do you think Lala will offer Raquel the same grace she wants people to give her if Raquel

comes back and says, I'm sober now. I've stopped drinking. It's not an excuse for my behavior. I am so sorry, but I was just throwing it all back. And that whole period was quite honestly like a hazy, drunken mess. Do you think she will be allowed to use that as a reason for her behavior? Like Lala very much has. No, because as she said on the reunion when she's like, but I wasn't fucking my best friend like it's not just it's a it's a step beyond just cheating okay i think that's what she would probably say i also feel

like it would be used as a justification for reintegrating her back in the friend group when it's like there's nothing she can do to be reintegrated back into the friend group well they never liked her to begin with yeah i guess maybe sheena she's done with her. Yeah. Don't you guys think though, like in terms of, we're not psychologists, obviously, but like in watching the last part of the reunion where she's so unemotional and everyone's picked up on that. I did see something going on there.

That does not seem natural to me. Raquel's reaction. Just the lack of emotion. That seems like something's going on there. And she's smiling through a pot. Like she's like, yeah, she's like, but then the right moment, she can like she has she will cry. I've seen very quickly. People do TikToks of the comparison of at the beginning of the season when she's out with Peter and she's bawling about pageantry and having aged out of pageants.

And then she's watching her supposed one of closest friends sob about how hard this has all been and how it's affecting her relationship with her daughter and she's watching it on the monitor just but i'm saying i think it's like right under the surface because like even in the car with the panic attack and like when they were sitting at the campfire at the camping and suddenly she starts crying i'm like i don't know you can just feel it's like all right there what's all right there i don't know if it's guilt or at some level of emotion but she whatever therapy she gets i hope helps to address why she is able to keep up that facade because it's not doing her anything that's the thing it's too it's just like i know raquel and tom are like the villains of america especially in reality tv world but maybe rachel is a sociopathic narcissist i

don't i don't fucking know you know what i'm saying like everyone wants to throw out those labels yeah but maybe did also did you hear like i this i i heard this rumor i've heard it was also verified and like it's i think even part of the show but like shockingly not discussed but like rachel's origin story of not being raised by her parents. Is that, did you, did you hear about that? When Rachel's mom was pregnant with Rachel,

she, it was a surprise. It was an unexpected. Oh, I told you this. Yeah. And so she was raised by her aunt and didn't know who her sister, her son thought her sister was her cousin.

I think she knew. I don't think she find out. I don't think they like kept it from cousin. I think she knew. When did she find out? I don't think they like kept it from her. Even if she knew, like why are we all just like, you imagine how the psychological fucked upness that might cause someone to like have their own mother, not want them,

but like. We don't know the circumstances. I don't know the circumstances, but I'm just saying I can at least have empathy. There's some family. In terms of how that might have affected Rachel. And if it wasn't ever dealt with and if it wasn't ever addressed, like, fuck. If that in itself, again, it's not an excuse, but if that was part of an explanation as

to why Raquel makes some of these choices or comes across kind of emotionally stunted in certain aspects of her life. Well, that would be enough for me. Yeah. Okay. This is what I want the Nick Vial take on. You have been a villain in reality show history and very successfully pivoted that arc to literally become The Bachelor. I mean, your villain, the reasons you were a villain were hardly as bad as what they have done. But having witnessed people go through that experience on television, if you were the fighting with sean booth there's not much you're really being vilified for so it's much easier to get out of like all you really have to do is be like hey i have a personality and i'm not like a you know there's there's more to me than just this soundtrack you've been listening to while you see me on on the screen but if i. But if I were their publicist or their manager,

I don't think they're capable, I guess is my answer. Because I think- On their own or even with advice? Yeah, I think they'd have to follow the advice. Okay. I actually ran into, over the weekend, Tom Sandoval's manager. Okay.

And I didn't know it was the manager. Oh, wow. And it just came up in conversation. The reaction I got from them was like, they don't have much faith in Sandoval's ability to kind of say or do the right thing. I think he has to first fully understand what he did. And I really don't think Sandoval has.

I heard from a very reliable source that Sandoval right now has the mindset and has said so through actual words that he has a kind of a you're welcome attitude for everyone else in Vanderpump. Like, hey, this is all blown up. Congrats on the salary bump. We're bigger than ever. Worth coming. Yeah. We have all this.

And this is because of what I did. And I honestly think he he thinks that and he believes that so much so that people have heard him say. OK, so whether he listens to the advice is one thing. But what should the advice be? He actually takes accountability. He has to get people to believe that he truly understands he's wrong. He has to be willing to take his punches, so to speak. He has to go out there and let the Lala and the James in America, whether it's too far or not, just be like, yeah, I fucking deserve any. I have no excuses. He has to be the one when Andy Cohen interjects. Because I loved how Ariana on episode one of The Reunion. Like it was, I thought, as great as Andy Cohen is at his job, I thought he did himself a disservice by immediately start questioning the relationship. And that's kind of the trope of a cheating scandal.

You know, you find out someone's cheated on so-and-so and the first line of question is, well, what was going on in the relationship? What was wrong with the relationship? And like we put the relationship on trial rather than the person who actually cheated on trial. And to Ariana's point, like it doesn't matter how bad or put the relationship on trial rather than the person who actually cheated on trial and to ariana's point like it doesn't matter how bad or good the relationship was that's a completely separate conversation because you can break up you can go to therapy

there's a handful of choices you can do in a relationship that don't require you fucking someone else and especially fucking their best friend so like in that case i think, let's say, and go back to episode one, Andy is just like, so Tom, when did the relationship go wrong? What was it? What was it like? And if Tom would have said, to be honest, Andy, like, with all due respect, I don't think your question's fair to Ariana. I think you're putting-

I don't think I would have bought it though. Whether you bought it or not, that's the only thing he could say. And he's got to be consistent. I think you don't buy things from Tom Sandoval because he's acted like a. Because he. Well, we know he doesn't believe it. Right. Because he can go on a podcast with Howie and he can say something like, you know what?

I just want Ariana to be happy. I fucked up. I'm sorry. He says those things. He says he's fucked up. He says he deserves the. But then immediately he starts justifying it by criticizing the relationship or criticizing Ariana.

That's why we don't believe him. That's why I'm literally wondering like what could save him at this point. Well, that's why I don't think he goes into the next season. What is the play for him? Therapy. He's just like showing his therapy sessions. What I guess what I'm saying is to save his image. He

actually has to be like Unbatch the World. Like I don't think the average basketball contestant, I think generally speaking, they're all decent people. There's definitely some pieces of shit in Bachelor World, right? But generally speaking, no one's as good or as bad as they come across on TV. And if someone is unlucky enough to get a

villain edit, it's usually based off of generally nothing. So all they have to do is show an attractive side to themselves and you know people like oh they got something there with tom people have to believe his remorse they have to believe that he sees what everyone else sees and no one believes that he sees it and i think to do it he has to truly it will it would take a long time because i don't like another reality tv it's just like oh well now i agree with you i see your side it would take an entire season 11 of him

truly repenting and truly like and you would need to see tom articulate in a conversations with his cast members or with his therapist whatever and he would have to show like you know leadership skills like a lala leadership skills that's maybe the wrong phrase but like lala again like lala's gift and why she's like who she is this season is because she has no problem being like i fucked up like it's she has humility she has grace and then she's articulating and then she's's savage. And she's, and by literally, like, no, but literally being a big, she would try to be a big sister to Rachel this in season 10. I did when she said, yeah.

Hey babe, I've been there. You're not, you're not a mistress. Don't let anyone say this to you. But like you also, but don't make the same mistakes I've done. If Tom could do, have an opportunity to show these things and be like a mentor to some other like person,

let's say him and James were still somewhat friends or whatever james being a little younger maybe he went to him and pulled james aside said hey man like i've been i've made so i've hurt people i love claims claim to love i've done x y and z you're doing the same shit i've done and please don't if you saw sandoval help someone uh not something that he did, I think that could be a start. I just don't think he's capable of it. I think Rachel's path to, I don't know if you'd call it redemption, but- Purgatory? Yes, is much clearer.

And I don't know if that's fair or not, but like you said, you put less blame on her than him. And I think she comes back, if she really did spend whatever, two and a half months in an actual treatment facility, has a better understanding of her motives, has like real conversations with the people she's hurt and apologize, like the steps in AA or something. I don't know if she had been back on the show, but on the show or not, she would have to confront Tom Sandoval in a way that like disassociated herself from him completely and kind of was like she would have to take her power back from tom right first of all she would have to not be with him she'd have to not be with him she would have to like disassociate herself

with him she'd have to kind of have like a sheena type conversation with tom she's a taking accountability for her action she's like i fucked up I did x y and z I have to own that as something I will always have to live with right I got slapped up in it yeah but at the same time the assumption is is that Tom being like in it from season one that kind of a a patriarchal kind of figure on the show who kind of manipulated saying like I know do you like i don't know if you go back and watch like i'm also shocked that like whoever liked this guy on color daddy when they were asking ariana like you can admit the band's not great right like why is no one acknowledging like this is a weird ass dude like i don't see i would never have wanted to hang out with him. Like apart from his. What was the appeal? Yeah. What is the appeal?

He, his, his odd. I just don't, it doesn't work for me. Well, that was, I think one of the more interesting parts of talking with Brad was when Brad said,

like, Tom was a really good friend and like he was loyal and he showed up for, and granted, like now that we see this, we're like, are you, how did like nothing can ever be like to stand ofval and loyal should never be used in the same sentence. You know what I don't think is a good friend is someone who always is telling you they're a good friend, which is what he does.

Like throughout the show, you'll see like he's like, I've always been there for you. I bought you this. I took you here. I'm like, OK, like we don't need you to if you have to push the narrative on me. I don't know if I buy it. Because Sandoval is one of those friends who, again, I think this is an epidemic in our society, but when it comes to friendships and people we associate ourselves, I don't think people actually think about character. People aren't going when they're making friends with people and asking themselves, are they a good

person? Do they treat other people around them with respect? What do you think they're evaluating instead? Are they fun? What can I get from this person? You know, what access can they give me? Is that because you've lived in LA too long? Yeah, I think it's not just LA. And I don't think people actually think that to themselves. I don't think they're like saying that to themselves, but I don't think they're thinking,

listen, you can't watch someone treat someone else like a, just be shitty to someone else and then look the other way and say they've never done that to me and then claim that you care about like that you evaluate people's character is a is like kind of a benchmark to whether you want to be friends with them or not and i think so often we you know especially younger it's just like yeah they can get you into a party they have access you know listen it's tough to make friends you know and so at first you're just like yeah they want to hang out with me.

Great. He definitely does have that. Yeah, let's get everyone together and have a good time. So that is, I think, was his value to the friend group. Yeah, it's always fun. And then very rarely did your needs come in conflict with Tom Sandoval's needs. But when that happens, you can't expect Sandoval to be a friend because he's immediately going to prioritize whatever his needs are. He's not going to be

like, well, I can't do this because he can get you batteries because he has nothing better to do on a Tuesday. And so to him, he's this like, he will do you favors in between his selfish needs. And to him, that's being a friend by just doing acts of service and things like that, as long as it doesn't come in conflict with whatever he needs at any given moment. We've really analyzed him here. That's so fun. Yeah. Ship station.

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How did you even just get into investigating this story regarding Randall Emmett and Lala and kind of get in the weeds? And how did you even kind of first discover that there was a story here? I thought what was so fascinating watching the documentary was, from my understanding, it seems to be portrayed that

it wasn't until he kind of inserted himself into Vanderpump and decided he wanted to be a reality TV star, did he shine what clearly turned out to be an unnecessary spotlight on himself. The irony, I think, is just kind of rich there. But from your standpoint, how did it play out from the perspective of an LA.A. Times journalist? As you know, I've written a lot since 2017, I guess, about men in Hollywood who have been accused of misconduct. And so I get a lot of tips on that front. And in 2017 and the fall, right after Harvey Weinstein happened, we did. It wasn't me personally,

but the paper got a tip about Randall. And at the time, I think we just were deluged with so much stuff that and Randall was not on Vanderpump rules. He was actually like a very, I would say at that point, especially more of a power player or at least, you know, got things made in town. But it wasn't like the go to person that you would be like, oh, God, I like look into this tip. And that's on us. You know, we have to make judgment calls. But a few years later, Meg, my colleague who's in the documentary with me, got another tip about a lawsuit where he had allegedly like not paid the financiers. And it all just coincided like we got enough. We were getting a couple more tips and we're like, you know what? We should probably look into this guy. We've heard things about him for a few years. And we it just was one of those things where the sources came together that we ended up having access to, I would say, more than I've ever had access on any investigation.

Like internal documents, text messages, contacts, just like a treasure trove of behind the scenes how a production company works in Hollywood. And we started uncovering some old and disturbing things. At what point were you just like, holy shit, there's definitely way more to uncover here? Yeah, like a fire is certainly lit under all this smoke. Yeah, what was your kind of the smoking gun moment

if you had one? So when you are looking into someone, one of the first things you'll do, or we do at the paper at least, is we scrub them, is what we call it. So you get the library to help you look up the public records

background of someone. So like, do they have any lawsuits against them is one of the first things or any criminal records, whatever, because, you know, red flag. Or even like because I actually watched the She Said movie last night. Yes. Very well done. Check it out. They were looking at like claims against them that kind of went nowhere. You know, like if someone makes some sort of like a sexual harassment claim that gets kind of swept under the rug or something like that. But like,

if you dig deep enough, you realize that a claim was made kind of thing, but it's not a public record type of thing. Did you guys do any of that stuff? Well, yeah, but like if it was HR or which there wasn't at his company or like if a police report is filed,

that is not public record um unless the accuser like has a copy of the public or sorry of the police report they made and we'll share it with you like i can't just call the lapd and be like i heard nick um filed a police report against his neighbor they'd be like no that's that's private really yeah so when we started looking into him there were already like dozens of lawsuits still ongoing, not settled or anything. And we were like, OK, that's unusual for someone to have that many lawsuits going on. And this all coincided with the Lala picture. Sorry, the pictures coming out of him with women and Lala believing he had cheated on her.

And so I think because of, as you noted, his visibility on Vanderpump Rules and Lala was out there being like, I know all this stuff, da da da da da, people were willing to come forward more. And so when you started asking around about him, it was like, oh, I've heard this and I've heard this. And yeah, people were just, it was the right moment for people to be willing to share. The documentary, I really enjoyed it. Obviously, it was great to see you on it. And with most of these types of shows, you film a ton of content and then you're kind of wait to see what makes

the cutting room floor. Was there anything in this documentary that you felt like got left out that you were surprised? Is there more information that you reported on that like hasn't reached, that didn't reach the documentary? This is my first time having a story made into one of these projects so it was like a learning experience for me too um and i didn't know what it would be like trying to convince sources to go on camera who had just spoken to us for the paper um and also you know presumably more difficult because people don't want to show their faces they're already reluctant to even be in the story. And sometimes if we have enough corroboration, we can grant them anonymity. And in this case, it wasn't possible in the documentary.

Like if there was someone who wanted to come forward but wanted to be in shadow, you know, like in those where they like change your voice or like we would still in the fact checking process have had to disclose that person's identity to Randall and his team, which obviously takes away. That's the whole reason why they wouldn't want to do it. Yes. And that was the standard of the production, the legal standard. So that was a wasn't able to make it in the documentary was um the sexual misconduct allegations which there are so many we couldn't even put in the story um which you know may or not be true they didn't reach the standard for the paper but like in the story we have um you know you'll you've heard lala say like casting he's been accused of running a casting couch for our audience can you explain what that is? Yeah, that was sort of the idea that has been around in Hollywood a lot, where like,

if you are on a couch with a powerful person and exchange sexual favors, you'll get a part in a movie or a part in a project. So in the story, there's like, we found a letter

that Gloria Allred had written to randall she alleged that randall had promised her parts in um films if she would give him sexual favors um which she said she did and she did receive those parts in exchange but basically said like she was coerced and there was a power imbalance. And in this letter, Gloria Allred was asking for a lot of money in exchange for what this girl had been through. And then we saw like, I think in the story, it says that we have a source witnessing that he signed the agreement saying he paid this woman off. There were some crazy things that happened while reporting that story that have never happened to me. I spoke to a woman who had the most serious allegations I've heard about Randall yet that actually did not end up in the story because I talked to her.

She sends me screenshots. She sends me NDAs, all this stuff. And then when we go to write the story, what you do is you send Randall and his team a list of all the questions with allegations you're going to put in the story so he can have adequate time to respond. And in response to that, what he sends is not only the answers, but sometimes people will send like documentation of why the people we've spoken to are supposedly not trustworthy. So he sent a lot of like, I don't know what you'd call them, affidavits, I guess, in his like, like support signed statements in support of his character. And one of them was from this woman who I'd spoken to, who gave me all this damning information. And she said in it that I actually spoke to Amy at the behest of Lala because Lala is in this custody battle and is out to get Randall. And so I made up the most wild stuff I could think of and completely lied to Amy.

And none of it is true. And all of this stuff. Randall provided you a letter that basically said that. No, he provided a letter from this girl where she recanted everything. Yeah. And signed it. It was like, Randall is not paying me to write this. And on top of this, one of the other ones, the other signed statements was from another woman who was friends with that girl who said the same thing. Lala had

convinced her to talk to me and lie. And she took back everything she said. I had never even interviewed that girl. I called this woman. She said, I don't want to talk. She didn't respond to me. And then Randall's team sends a whole statement from this woman who refused to talk to me saying, I did an interview with Amy. I said all this stuff and I lied about it. We'd never even done an interview. Crazy. I know.

What was their angle? Like, how did Lala get them to lie? A, why would Lala ask that or feel the need to ask it? More importantly, what did Lala have on them or do or say that they would go, you know what, I'm going gonna say some crazy ass allegation type of thing that could potentially ruin if if this person was innocent's life and they would just say that for what for love no i mean what was your thought at first they put in the thing that they did it they said she said she was in this horrible custody battle and he was

evil and the only way like we could help is because you know we we just a lie yes that's so hard to believe though what did you think i mean what so like what is i mean that's never happened to me that someone recants like that like that was and especially lies about an interview that never happened like that one i was like um there's clearly financial motivation raise skepticism among the readers because yeah that not, if you hear that, what do you think? I think that Randall got to them. And paid them. Like compensated them.

It also was very specific language of like, I was not paid by Randall Emmett to send this. It's like, which of his poor assistants had to sell them Venmo? Yeah, like maybe exactly. Yeah. poor assistants had to sell them venmo yeah like maybe exactly yeah so i would say like a lot of like those are sort of the machinations of the reporting but ultimately i think are revealing because they just show you know potentially the lengths that this information was trying to be yeah i know randall has come out uh publicly uh and even named you and and try to discredit you by suggesting that you're just friends with Lala and then you have some ax to grind. What would your response to that be? Because obviously, I'm sure you're making relationships with these people that you're working with.

That doesn't have to discredit you or somehow... What is your relationship or how would you respond to Randall's accusation? Yeah. I mean, well mean well first of all as i said to you i never watched vanderpump prior to this so it's not like i was like watching from the beginning like i have an extra grind with this guy yeah with lala i mean she has said this before like we reached out to her she did not reach out to us um so the idea that she like came over with some huge file and like dropped it on our desks as part of some big campaign um is not accurate i think she's also been open about the fact that like yeah she's in the middle of a custody battle so if information comes out that's negative about him that selfishly would probably help her. I think she's said that,

you know, in her podcast. God, I mean, at this point, I'm sure it feels like life or death for her. I mean, she's fighting for the custody of her child against this incredibly dangerous and toxic person. I think, you know, since earlier this year, his ex-wife, Amber Childers, who's like an actress, she was on You and stuff. She filed a request for a restraining order. And in that request that she had been contacted by the FBI and that they were asking questions about Randall's alleged involvement with like child pedophilia. And we also spoke to some other people who've been contacted by the FBI about the same thing. That does not mean there's like an investigation. It just means they're asking questions.

And so, yeah, I think if you're a mother and you hear that the FBI is asking questions about that stuff, that freaks you out. But to answer your original question, Lala is a source who I talked to about reporting. Gotcha. Has Lala, I mean, I know maybe it was like kind of, I'm sure at what point they were enemies through Randall, but have Amber and Lala connected and communicated now that they're, they kind of have aligned interest despite the history between them. Have they kind of become a united front?

I think my understanding is that they're like homies, like they're good friends. Like she, there are pictures of Amber and her kids at like Lala's birthday for her kid with Randall. Yeah, solidarity at least. Although their custody battles are not intertwined at this point. Does he have custody battles with both women at this point?

Amber dismissed her request for a restraining order. Okay. So it can be opened again. But they split custody. They split custody. I don't know if it's 50-50. I think it is. Damn.

They share custody, yeah. That's tough. In doing this investigation and also recently a profile on Lala, I know there's always been some controversy over the timelines with when Lala started seeing Randall versus his marriage to Amber and like while legally they were still married interpersonally they might have been separated like do you do you gain kind of an answer on the specific timeline I think you know on the show she's even said like and this is one thing where we think back like when you asked earlier do we judge people differently for their age or whatever? Like, this was what was interesting to me in talking to her about her story. Like, she comes to L.A.

She's lived with her parents till she's 23. Starts working at Sir. She wants to be an actress. This guy walks in. He suddenly starts sending. He's like, I want to put you in a movie. Then these gifts just start showing up at her door. Like a car.

Not not even before that like louboutins like you know alcohol like she said she was sick he sent her like tamiflu like with no note or anything it's just like kind of this old school hollywood producer vibe of like you want things and i will send i'll take care of you yes um and she's 24 so i was like what did you think of that she's like i thought it was great I was walking around in like a thousand dollar boots, which to my 37 year old mind, I'm like, girl, doesn't that seem sketchy to you? But, you know, you have to take someone's life perspective at that point. dad's house to la you know there is something to be said about like figuring out life on your own like you kind of need to i've been taking advantage of i've had a you know there's been plenty of sure like from like a hollywood-y type of person more of a wannabe outside of hollywood but just in life like just you don't have to be in hollywood

to be taking advantage of someone. Just early in life, when you kind of get out in the world and you leave the nest, I feel like people can smell that kind of impressionable, youthful, ignorant blood, so to speak. I'm new to the world. And people are like, eh, you know, it's like that kind of Pinocchio kind of,

let me show you how the world works. And you're just kind of this impressionable person. And so Lala literally came from the nest, you know, she didn't live on her own. And like, like you learn a lot about life that you kind of realize who you should trust and not trust. And yeah. And so she, you know, maybe same as Raquel, Tom, to some extent, we don't know what Tom was telling Raquel or how much she was going to leave Ariana.

But like Lala has always said, you you know he told me he was separated like i think we saw on that episode with lisa vanderpump like they went to couples therapy and the couples therapist basically like signed off on it was like no they're having trouble in their marriage so i don't know did she kind of turn a blind eye who knows but i don't think he was like i am still married i think if you have a therapist sign off on something that you have to trust your therapist. I mean, that's, you know, it's like anything else. You can go to the wrong doctor. You can go to the wrong mechanic. You can go to the wrong therapist. And I, you go to therapy, especially couples therapy in hopes of getting guidance about like, I don't know, what the fuck should I do? Like life gets complicated. We now live in a world where,

you know, people aren't settling down with their person at 23. People come with baggage. Things are messy. Life's complicated. And we think to ourselves, well, how can I judge this person? I don't want them to judge me for my baggage. And so you do things like therapy. And then if you have a therapist, give them the old, like, hey, listen, let me explain why your partner has why it's OK to trust them. Yeah, because they're here. They're working on it. Yada, yada.

Well, I'd green light that if I'm Lala and my therapist told me this is a green light and I was in love. Yeah, that would seem like a reasonable authority figure to trust. Yeah, I'd be like, well, you know, life's messy and complicated, but my therapist says it's OK. Well, you know, life's messy and complicated, but my therapist says it's okay. Which, by the way, I think she said to Lisa that was actually simultaneously his couples therapist with Amber. Yeah. So it was like- How is 24-year-old Lala supposed to, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.

He's like, I got a couple, it's hard to find a good therapist. Hey, I got a couples therapist. You're not thinking, is this therapist like, you know what I'm like? And who knows, knowing this Randall guy, I mean, if he's getting people to like recant stories of serious allegations, maybe he fucking had his, maybe he paid his therapist off. You think he's capable of that? I don't know what this man is capable of. Neutrophil. Natalie's favorite nighttime routine.

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Yeah. I mean, it's astonishing like even on that profile about Lala, like the comments still are so savage. They're always like, she's a mistress.

She absolutely knew. She got off the gravy train when it didn't suit her. And it's like, people are very, they are not easily swayed on her i don't think that's a great segue into a piece that you wrote and again we we love ariana we we are so

glad that as it relates to her experience that as painful as this all must have been for her that america and bravo nation and and the hell of the world has been singing her praises and showering her with opportunities. And she's kind of literally America's sweetheart. By the way, do you think she could take that too far? Because I've seen some people like this was like her sixth SpawnCon with the Lays recently. Anyone can take anything too far. But should she just make all the money she can right now? Or is it going to be like a bad look at a certain point?

I think yes to both. I think she should get her bag. And I think don't fuck the internet. Who gives a shit about the internet or what like the haters eventually going to, you know, people are like the judge during executioner when it comes to fandom of what they think is like, okay, or what they think people should do or what looks good or what looks catty. Definitely Ariana can reach a point where some people are just going to be like, you know what, I'm tired of rooting for her.

I'm just going to root against her. Yeah, like you're milking this a little bit. Yeah, like there's some arbitrary thing, but I don't think Ariana should stop. This is a literal once in a lifetime opportunity. Finance-wise, yeah. Financially, to be on the show for 10 years and for the first time in 10 years, break

through to mainstream media and be literally America's sweetheart. This is another thing I was going to ask you. You've done Dancing with the Stars, right? Yeah. I'm sorry, but I feel like she shouldn't do Dancing with the Stars. I actually kind of feel like it's below her. That's hard to say. What does being on Dancing with the Stars get her?

What has it gotten anyone who's won it? I don't think it's about what it's going to say. What does being on Dancing with the Stars get her? Like, what has it gotten anyone who's won it? I don't think it's about what it's going to get her. I think it's more about getting on TV. To a broader than Bravo audience? Sure. This would be an argument of why she should say yes. To my knowledge, I think she'd be the first Vanderpump cast person casted on Dancing with the Stars. And she'd have that feather in her cap.

Because when it comes to... Ooh. I'm just... I'm just... Listen, it matters. You know, Bachelor people are highly competitive despite being friends. You know, I guarantee those Vanderpump cast

are highly competitive. And to say that you did something that no one's ever asked the rest of your castmates to do and it's 10 years of running is a cool little moment for her. I don't think it's going to do anything for her, but I think she'll almost certainly make the finals. She could not dance at all. And as long as she shows that she's having a good time, she's going to make the finals. I don't see how she

can't. That's a six-figure payday. Lisa Vanderpump did Dancing with the Stars back in 2013. Not the same. So now it's her and Lisa Vanderpump. I also feel like that was one of the first things that was announced when Ariana was like kind of first in post-Gandival where it's like she couldn't have known just how long it would stay relevant and I think this was like every time the

flames looked like they might burn down. Oh, you think maybe she wouldn't do it now? Or yeah, or just like, you know, she's also got a Lifetime movie and she's gotten all these big brand deals, but it would make sense to me, especially if this came at the beginning, to be in the mindset of like, I'm saying yes to opportunities. Like, this is a huge opportunity and I'm like gonna, and it's certainly an area for like work ethic, I think, to

be shown. That's the thing. I don't think it's gonna move the needle in one direction. I don't think it's gonna kill her momentum. I don't think it's gonna elevate her even more. It does get her on TV. It does get her money. And then like anything else, it's just what you do next. How much money? If she goes to the finals, I think it's going to elevate her even more. It does get her on TV. It does get her money. And then like anything else, it's just what you do next. How much money? If she goes to the finals, I think it's around like 300-ish. Okay. So I think it's just a matter of what does she do after? It's always your next decision. It's like you just kind of, as we say in the show,

shavings make a pile. I think there's this one more feather in her cap. She's not being offered recurring roles on network television. You know what I'm saying? But that's what I think that this does not help. I think if she wanted, I think she should be. Is that her? I don't know. We don't know what her ambition is.

If it's to be a series actress, I don't know if that's the route. Let's say it's being an actress on a recurring network television show. Maybe that's been a lifelong dream. That's what she wants to do. This certainly helps. It gets her in more rooms. It gives her more access. You know, all the casting directors who are Vanderpump super fans.

If there's an audition that and remotely like fits like an Ariana type of person, they're going to bring her in for an audition for sure. But no one's giving her. I don't know the job if she doesn't at least do well in the audition. And I think... I just think like... Maybe there's a jump... She's so known as Ariana. If she wants to be known as an actress, you shouldn't keep like... But being yourself.

I feel like we're saying the same thing. Are we? I think she's so well known as Ariana that even this moment for her isn't enough to just like have her just jump over into like series regular on a TV show and just leave reality TV behind her. But how is doing more reality TV going to get her there? Well, I don't know what her, I guess her goals are, but I think it's like anything else. Like, you know, uh, I don't, I didn't think we talked about Matthew McConaughey this episode, but Matthew McConaughey was like notorious for the rom-com shirtless workout videos. And he's gone on, I think, and he talked about it even in his

book or in podcasts that like he had to make a choice. And that choice was I'm done doing this shit, even if it means I don't work. And I want to do different types of movies and do different types of roles. And to do that, you have, you can't, you, it's hard to do both. You can't play it safe. Well, I'm going to do rom-coms and hopes that I get this like super serious film. There has to be this gap where you start wondering where did Matthew McConaughey go? I also think like people coming from the Vanderpump rules world before this season, like they're kind of working from like a scarcity perspective. Like they've never had the opportunities they do now. Right. So like being more selective is maybe a learning curve. Sure. Also, it's like, listen, I've been fascinated by the Vanderpump cast. I have no idea what their financial situations are. They seem to be all doing fine. I guess Lala and Sheena talked

about buying property in Palm Springs. I know like Sheena has a place here that she rents. I think she also lives in San Diego. So like, obviously that takes some capital. But on the flip side, like they've been on TV almost as long as the Kardashians. Right. And they don't seem, none of them seem to be multimillionaires, let alone billionaires. And like, they've been on TV almost just as long on, you know, Bravo, very popular network. And so like, I'm kind of fascinated by like, whatever choices they did make throughout their career,

why hasn't it manifested into generational wealth? Like it seems to have for the Kardashians, because it almost seems like they got this similar platforms, but it played out differently. Why didn't we watch vanderpump till this year we didn't but like yeah but no but that what the audience wasn't that big but not it's not like kardashians big i don't know i guess i don't know the numbers yeah but it's still cable television i think it was big enough i think a lot i think a lot of maybe we didn't watch it but i think a lot of people were but i mean we don't't have to get into the whole appeal of the Kardashians, but it's very different than Vanderpump.

I know. Yeah. They've been on television for 10 years. You're judging. They should have been working harder. I don't, I've just, it's, it's, I'm just kind of fascinated by that world. And maybe I don't understand it. Again, like they're not very nice to their cast in the post editing department.

You know, they, they are filled with drama. Like if you're out there, you might be. Kardashians are producers on their show. Sure. And so like if you're a Jax Taylor, right, and you're like you're a star, but you're also the guy who got a stripper pregnant in Vegas. It's not exactly a lot of people hiring you for like to to represent their brand. Yeah. So there is that element, that they are tom and tom did

have that hydroxy cut endorsement prior to all this yeah i also think like within the restaurant business like i feel you know i'm not sure what the margins are on skincare or some other places that people might venture into but i know for a fact it's very hard to turn a profit on restaurants and so you know even though tom and tom did have tom tom and then schwartz and sandy is like these independent business ventures as a result of the show we saw what happened with schwartz and sandy is like it wasn't exactly a cash cow of an opportunity have you been towards the sand no i haven't you like it black terry ketchup yeah yeah it was funny how everyone was like shading that it was in a strip mom like everything in la is like yeah yeah i don't think that that's that's just kicking them while you're down literally yeah yeah i don't i think it's

totally fine okay their problem is not their location did you see um tom schwartz there uh when we showed up yeah he was you didn't talk to him well i i was going to come on my podcast um he he was on his way out and he was he was he was hanging out with fans and i didn't want to interrupt his his moment with some fans and i thought he would come back inside and he was he was he was hanging out with fans and i didn't want to interrupt his his moment with some fans and i thought he would come back inside and he took off so i didn't i didn't get a chance to talk with him then i talked with him the night before at vanderpump's uh fundraiser he sent us a round of shots as his apology for not being there yeah for not being at schwartz and sandra for having to leave yeah it's very charming motherfucker wait sorry i completely completely derailed from when you were talking about ariana we do yes that's all right we we like to bounce

around but yes what do you what are your thoughts on the fact that ariana has had all this praise and yet the treatment of lala being also victimized by a lying deceitful and in randall's case criminal arguably allegedly allegedly alleged criminal allegedly predatory allegedly by a lying, deceitful, and in Randall's case, criminal, arguably. Allegedly criminal. Allegedly. Alleged criminal. Allegedly predatory. Allegedly abusive.

A lot. Some. Yeah. You know, as bad as fucking your girl's best friend is, Randall is accused of far more heinous and serious things. And a man who, unlike Tom, you know, Tom is, might be a a liar but he also seems to be sloppy and maybe not super bright and i don't know if you need to be afraid of tom sandoval all that much i could be missing something but he doesn't seem to invoke a lot of fear or power you know he doesn't seem to have a

lot of sway randall on the other hand you know he might not be making the biggest movies, but he elevated himself as a fairly influential and powerful guy with access and means to go after people and certainly proved himself to not be someone who ran from litigation. be like a red flag on your end but if you if you're up against someone who you know doesn't want away from litigation but almost like leans into it that can be a scary intimidating thing and yet why do we feel like the treatment of lala has been so different than the treatment of ariana why is why is lala have to constantly defend herself and again we love ariana we're not trying to bring up you know what is it like ariana literally was a part like her relationship with tom started with infidelity so even that parallel of like well well you know people could say like well you know lala she should have known he was married and yada yada it's just like what the you know like it was all

messy so why are we semantically kind of splitting hairs to decide how we're revering one of these women and yet constantly criticizing and checking and doubting Lala? that like society metabolizes this stuff like and there was a researcher from columbia who made an interesting point point in the article where she was like people have to be the perfect victim for us to embrace them and the trope of the perfect victim is sort of like someone who's demure and like you know is is empathetic in all the right ways and like gentle maybe like and yeah um and ariana kind of most of the time comes until this until she got wrong she was like understanding and there for her man and like gentle and because then people get to feel like a savior they're like she's so quiet and i'm a vocal advocate against what she's been through like i'm a savior versus lala's like i'm like now that this has happened i'm doing everything i can to save myself right like that's a good point yeah like I will come for you like and it's harder to I don't

know what it is about people rooting for people but like I don't know just the uh when someone is that outwardly like I guess assertive and aggressive um fairly or not people don't rally behind them I don't think yeah. What's your theory on it? I think that makes a lot of sense. I think there's an element, too, of, again, like timing. Like the Ariana and Tom literally nine years ago. Right. The reason we're invested in them, I think, makes total sense.

Yeah, the super fans who've watched it all the way through, or people like you and I maybe have gone back and educated ourselves, we can be reminded that, oh, yeah, they dated, but it's so far removed. And I think this story in itself, the reason why it's gotten so mainstream is because I think, you know, specifically women, because I think more women watch this show than men, you know, anytime something like this happens, like people finally see, feel seen. So I think there are so many victims of infidelity, especially women or married women or whatever, who felt like justice wasn't served for them, that their man got away with it.

People didn't really call back to season one. Stassi gets cheated on by her then boyfriend who gets someone's pregnant and she has to convince her friends to believe her. I think shit like that happens all the time and you have this story where finally a tom sandoval the fuck like a fuck boy superstar who's been a fuck boy his life is his getting his you know up and cummins or whatever his fucking is come up and his come up and he's gonna up and come he's getting his come up he's getting you know he's being you know and i think people are jumping on that bandwagon because it's like, if my guy couldn't get punished, Tom is representing all the fuckboys

and all the pieces of shit husbands and boyfriends, whoever. And I think they're just, it's just, I want this guy to fucking pay because I feel like they finally, they're getting redemption through Ariana. That is, Meg said this. She was like who what girl hasn't been on some level Ariana. Yeah, she's the relatable girl who's been cheated on maybe not by your best friend, but yeah, that's

much more common than the girl who people think came to town was a gold digger mistress with a Hollywood producer and then gets, you know, bamboozled by him like that's a very unique situation. Yeah producer and then gets, you know, bamboozled by him. Like that's a very unique situation. Yeah.

And then I think, you know, any, any parallels between Ariana and Tom and Kristen, people are just like, wow, that's this. It's like,

it's fucking up their narrative, you know? So the fan who wants to attach themselves and see themselves through Ariana, you know, like Chrisris rock said it's this kind of selective outrage they're just kind of eh sure but like whatever this is just fucking up my ability to connect with ariana and feel like and see my situation through ariana and i don't think we need to like criticize ariana it's just more it's just convenient to do that with a la la yeah it's like the you got what was coming to you

type of energy and shit like that i also think there's a level of it's terrifying and obviously not to diminish in any way what ariana went through in the slightest because that was horrible but i think you look at the situation lala's in and the way that she was sleeping next to a man who's alleged of all kinds of assault who's alleged of all kinds of like really intense predatory atrocious behavior and i think on some level people want to believe like no there were red flags she missed because it's too scary to think that that could happen to me or like my daughter or my friends or people close to me that like you could be that bamboozled by someone that dangerous with that much access to

power so it's better to like poke holes and find flaws in lala's character because then it means okay this scary terrifying thing isn't i'm not like that couldn't happen to me yeah i think there's a lot of truth too which is so crazy when you think about it after you told your story what allegedly randall emmett is clearly capable of like the lengths to which he's willing to go to protect himself and the fear that could instill in any of his victims including lala i mean i truly can't imagine what it's like for lala to realize who she married ariana despite owning a home with tom she can have nothing to do with him she is free and

fucking clear lala's attached to him for life yeah and lala is stuck with this motherfucker and legally she may never she may always be stuck with this motherfucker and legally she may never she may always be stuck with this motherfucker and even just like the fucked up part just to like to have to decide for the love of your own child to as bad as he might be to not take away having a like the complicated like you know mental gymnastic lala has to do on a daily basis and yet ariana she's just fucking free and clear of tom like once she figures out her living situation she never i mean she might have to work with them but like she really is free and clear of ever having to like give a

shit about tom sandoval and lala will never have that luxury i do think like to your point of you know are people it's surprising to me and maybe like i think after me too people thought like oh everyone is more comfortable coming forward now and like you know like let's call everyone out and like that's really not ubiquitous at all especially after what we saw happen to amber heard and a lot of like legal verdicts that have come down where I mean, like she did not name him by name and was found liable. Right. Amber Heard. So that's like that, I think, has caused somewhat of a chilling effect. And like if she can have to pay millions of dollars, why is some unknown person going to come forward even and not name someone but like be vague about it? That's a that's

a risk. And so, so you know it's one thing like i we've gotten threatening legal letters from randall from lots of people and like i have a lawyer at the la times who looks at and is like either be concerned about this or don't and even when you read that it's rattling it's like upsetting seeing someone come up see seeing someone like attack your character and be like, seems like they know what you're asking or trying to intimidate you. So I can only imagine what it is like to be a woman who has maybe even signed some sort of NDA with one of these guys to then get a threatening legal letter. And it's easy for us to be like, okay, it's just because frankly,

I'm not sure Randall, he loves to send threatening legal letters. I'm not sure he's actually really followed through on any of those legal threats. You never want to be the first. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And so I understand it's a difficult position to be in a report as a reporter because you're like, I totally get why you are worried. And I don't want you to come forward unless you are prepared for that, because that's a lot of emotional upheaval that you are potentially inviting. And that's something you have to do as a reporter. You're like you're simultaneously trying to encourage them to come forward. But you kind of it's your responsibility to be as candid and as upfront as possible what they should expect or what level of protection,

if any, the L.A. Times can offer. Like you have to truly be up front with them and still hope that they're willing to speak out. I know. That's like one thing over the years that I've increasingly I literally do say to people like you have to want to do this. I'm not going to push you into it because I'll take them through the whole process of like you're not we're not just having like a many hour conversation one time and you tell me all these horrible things that have happened to you. We're going to have to talk about it again. The lawyer's going to ask me questions and I'm going to have to come back to you and go over specific details. And you might feel like I'm doubting your veracity, but it's

not. I just need to go over, you know, like I need documentation. I need lots of proof. And then when we send, we're going to have to tell your accuser everything you've said about them before publication. And they might try to smear your character in return. They might pull up any texts you've sent them, any pictures, communications afterwards. Like it's a long process that you're opening yourself up to. And so if you're not wanting to go through that, like I understand, but at the same time, it's hard because unfortunately speaking out, I think is one of the only things that can stop this behavior. Because if you're scared and you don't say anything, it does keep happening. Ooh, that's crazy.

Pivoting back to Scandival. Yes. We have the finale this week, which, by the way, we will be discussing and covering in full as an investigative reporter for the L.A. Times. Have you heard any rumors regarding the big reveal, the big secret? What do you what do you know? Hi, Amy Kaufman, investigative reporter. What is the secret? I don't know. On the third part, the big secret, what do you know? Hi, Amy Kaufman, investigative reporter. What is the secret?

I don't know. On the third part of the reunion. You hear things, you know, right? Once you become a person people trust and go to, I'm sure you people will, you get fed. Okay, I've heard that it is about the timeline. Okay. But if that's true. Gotta be James, right?

Yes, I think so. So the rumor being that, you know, Alex Baskin, his whole proposition, as we heard from Kate, is that they're waiting on filming because allegedly, whatever this reveal is,

it will affect relationships within the cast. It will change everything, is what he told Kate. Probably a bit overhyped. So what about, if this reveal is about the timeline of the affair and you're saying it which is one of the rumors is that raquel and tom sandoval were hooking up even when she was engaged to james yeah and that or at least the first time

happened and maybe it wasn't an ongoing thing but the first time happened while she was still engaged to james why would that change everything? I think that's a fair question. Maybe we're jaded. We're cynical because I honestly, if like, I don't know, if I found out an ex cheated on me after I broke up, I wouldn't give a fuck. James already doesn't like them. Like what?

But would it impact Lisa Vanderpump more? Because I feel like she hasn't, you know, she's gotten, Lisa Vanderpump has gotten a little bit of criticism from some people for not being hard enough on Tom Sandoval. And you have with James, she has this pre-existing relationship with James's father. She very much is protective of James. She has a special connection with James. Of Ariana. And not to say she hasn't been very much like there for Ariana or like made it clear.

You're saying she'd be more mad? So would, but would Lisa Vanderpump take it as more of like a personal affront or would like, would it impact her in any capacity? Well, I think it could impact her. I don't know if she'd take it a personal affront,

but if I'm James, would I care? No. Would I still conveniently care when I want it, when it, when it served me well? And I guess what I'm saying is

James could in theory, like not actually give a shit and be like, I didn't really care for. Yeah. So now I still hate Raquel and Tom, but now he could just be like i i didn't really care for yeah so now i still hate raquel and tom but now he could just be like i don't want to he could use it as a bargaining chip to like not want to film or not associate but he said the whole cast will want to know this

maybe it's not about the timeline brad who came on last week he's his opinion is that which was kind of like breaking news is that and, and I assume he included Ariana in this because they seem to be fairly tight, that it doesn't seem like Ariana is sitting there waiting, wondering what it is and waiting for another bomb to drop. That's true. And if all the people it once if you've been cheated on as someone who's been cheated on before, like you're just you get very angsty with like more information coming out. What more am I going to find out? You know, it's like, oh, what else? When someone's like, I got to tell you something. She's from the jump. And like, who wasn't Kristen Doty?

Like, I don't even want to know. She was like, I don't even want to know the other details. Yeah, I don't know. But I think you could say that. And but people still offer it too you know ariana's gonna find out either way whether she wants to know she's gonna find out i don't give a fuck anymore vibes yeah uh i also heard that the um i think that usually they get that the cast screeners go like a few days before and this they're like they're not sending not till the very last i heard that they're sending it to the cast tuesday. Exactly. Which usually they get like a week in advance.

Right. Yeah. They're making that window real short. They're making it real, real, real short. I'm surprised they're even showing it to them. Yeah. Like why? You know these people are going to talk between Tuesday night and the following night.

Yeah, social media is instantaneous. Yeah, because that's really interesting because if they send it out to cast Tuesday night, for example, like- Nick and I will be, hello, did you watch it? No, but like, right. But like Lala, I think last week or leading up to the reunion, Lala's like, just got the screener. You're going to hate these motherfuckers even more. She didn't really say anything, but she's letting you all know I've watched it.

Here's what to expect. Here's how you're going to feel. Yada, yada. Right. The show has been like, this is going to change everything. It's going to affect these relationships. Right. gonna feel yada yada right the show has been like this is gonna change everything it's gonna affect these relationships right so what if they say they think it's nothing yeah they they're giving them basically a 12-hour window to be like i saw it and honestly like pour water on it yeah yeah interesting oh but then maybe do we believe that

that hasn't okay maybe it is good then or they wouldn't have given it to them 24 hours in advance they don't contractually have to show that i don't right so then i have no idea but i would assume they absolutely do not have to show them yeah yeah i can't imagine they would ever uh contractually obligate themselves to always because that's like implying some sort of editorial control almost if they are required to give them advanced screeners for something i don't know i mean it's already locked in but could be anything else with the timeline anything else with the time i don't know this is too big of a moment for alex baskin the executive producer it's already been huge it's

done like wonders for the show it has been giving for us like this scandal you're like thank you i mean like it's it's it's it's been massive fucking massive like if alex baskin is out there dropping like this this fucking easter egg of like you think this is it there is more it's gonna fucking change everything and ends up being nothing like we will still watch the next season i know but why kind of take away even some of your credibility at that point to like tease some drama like you've just it's already good man it's already gucci it's like the hype is there the hype is there why risk leaving us disappointed right he's made this whole reunion about the last five minutes and instead of loving it and be like oh god boy that was just having a cigarette at the end of episode three be like

well that's that just wraps up the greatest season of reality tv ever we're all gonna be fucking pissed we're literally gonna watch it live and then record our reactions afterwards we're gonna be working fucking late i think it't know, don't you think it's like The Bachelor? They do that every season, hyping it up, and then it never lives up to expectations, and we just come right on fucking back. Yeah, but this is different. I feel like The Bachelor's never had a moment like this. And I will say when The Bachelor-

The Bachelor has had moments like this. And they delivered. Yeah. Ari, Colton jumping the- Jason, that's right. Yeah, those were fucking moments. Like, yeah yeah they truly were so it's got to be

something it can't just be you know we found like we fucked a few more like did what Swartz could do had did Swartz have sex with by the way

I need to talk to you about your pronunciation of some of these people's names Swartz Swartz what is it Swartz

Amy we've tried sometimes whatever you also say bachelor yeah I mumble no that's not mumbling Schwartz Schwartz What is it Schwartz Amy we've tried Sometimes Whatever You also say bachelor Yeah I mumble No that's not mumbling Bachelor The bachelor

The bachelor Okay Kind of Australian You know just dropping a few syllables It is kind of That is Australian Bachelor I have a lot of words to get out

I just don't have time to enunciate sometimes Okay so So Schwartz Schwartz Yeah People are going to feel very seen I have a lot of words to get out. I just don't have time to enunciate sometimes. Okay. So, so Swartz. Showartz. Yeah. Uh, people are going to feel very seen by you calling him out. Fuck yeah,

Amy. Finally. Immediately. The entire whole fandom. I think it was a Sandoval. Sandoval. Sandoval. Oh,

I don't. Okay. Every time I hashtag Sandoval, I'm like, how do you fucking spell his name? There you go. Um, Showartz.

Uh, yeah. Some people think Showartz has had sex. That's not right either. I don't give a shit. I'm like, how do you fucking spell his name? There you go. Schwartz. Yeah. Some people think Schwartz has had sex. That's not right either. I don't give a shit. You're from the Midwest. It's like a very common name. To what?

Schwartz. Schwartz. Like you didn't grow up with Schwartzes? I don't. I wasn't like. There's a C-H, not a Schwartz. Yeah. I truly did not give a shit how people spelled his name up until this very moment like maybe I should

care I am sorry okay go back about I do notice it when you talk about it so many people are just so thrilled with Amy Kaufman right now I love calling out Nick that's going back you know what a decade or so I've just decade yeah calling out Nick's my favorite did Raquel

sleep with Schwartz that that could be it what about did you guys see when you watch the little thing at the very end when they're like Raquel are you ready to tell the truth like did that give anything did we get anything from that yeah I felt a little no no but like what is it are you ready to tell the truth that's what I'm saying I said well so the implication the secret comes from Rachel. Definitely. Right? Yes. Also, would she ever change her name back to Rachel? No. That's embarrassing.

Yeah. She has to lean in. Yeah, she can't go back. She can't admit defeat. She's trying to friggin' clear her name and be authentic and she's gonna lean into her fake name? Yeah, maybe that move is to go back and, you know, maybe it's like... I'm reintroducing myself. I'm reintroducing myself to Rachel. It's like the old me. I don't think she's gonna it's like, I'm reintroducing myself. Yeah. I'm reintroducing myself to Rachel. It's like the,

the old me. I don't think she's going to come back on. I mean, Sheena has said that her, you know, parents won't let her,

that Rachel's parents won't let her. She's, they're going to start filming in a couple weeks. She, it doesn't seem like everyone I've talked to

really has no idea where the fuck she is. Well, she's in Arizona. Sure. But then they said she left. Did you watch the TikTok yet? Show Nick. I want to see what he thinks.

It's like this girl walking through an airport. And in the comments, the person who posted it, it's like, I saw her face to face and it was her. Okay. But I don't. This is some fan. But it was in Jacksonvilleville airport people are like she wouldn't be wearing dusty new balances and then people were like new balances are she could easily not be her yeah i know it does look like her don't get me wrong and that person does seem to be

walking like they could be pregnant that person's pregnant i think That person looks pregnant. They're like waddling. That's also easily not her. I know. It's very confusing. Her. Also, why in Jacksonville? That's a bigger question. It's not her. I saw Rachel slash Raquel at Jacksonville Airport Saturday, May 27th at 2.09pm

looking very with child. You can't see her face, but I know it was her. We made eye contact before I took the picture and she had the scar on her left eyebrow like on the last episode. No way in hell she has a scar.

She turned around when I yelled Raquel. So that's what this caption is. When someone yells Raquel. Get this homegirl on the podcast. When someone yells Raquel. If someone's like, Raquel at the airport,

I might turn around. You know, like. You would respond to Raquel. Valid valid i don't know that one it absolutely looks like it could be her but i'm telling you it did put it like little thing in my mind i was like i just don't feel like she dresses like that because when we've seen her at the airport before she is wearing like black leggings a hoodie she has like a hat and a mask on and the person with her i guess could easily prove that person's husband it's so easy if she was trying to like that put on a mask if you don't want people to recognize you and who's this random guy she

allegedly is with if it's not and who's has her bags because like if it's not raquel this is like this person's probably partner you guys got got to link to this in the in the podcast like she also doesn't have her signature purse that i feel like she always has that black one it really does kind of look like her it absolutely looks like her i mean even before the episode the the video started i'm like yeah that definitely looks like raquel she this chick responded to some of the comments and she's like i I have gone this deep. And she's like, I swear to God, I was face to face with her,

whatever. But again, like the girl who thought she, who claimed to have had sex with Clayton after a night out at the club, honestly thought she had sex with Clayton.

She met some like tall, big motherfucker in the club who kind of looked like Clayton. Did he say his name is Clayton? I don't know the whole story, but I, yeah, I mean, that's something guys do by the way like if so if they if they're told they look like a celebrity or an athlete my fucking friends in college who played baseball for you know for the college team would go around who'd be like yeah we play for the brewers

you know how many how many girls at the bars or clubs be like well which brewer you know like which one and so guys will lie often about like being a some sort of athlete or public figure so i believe that this girl believes she saw raquel okay but that doesn't mean it's raquel yep all right mystery for the for one more day i guess also that person looks really fucking pregnant and And they just filmed. I know. That does. That does. If they're pregnant, they're walking very pregnant.

They filmed the reunion not that long ago. I don't, again, not in any way know what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to pregnancy. But, like, I don't know if things happen that fast. She really popped in two months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From, like, zero to nine real quick.

That looked like a third trimester walk there if I'm, you know, right? Yeah. Also also Jacksonville. Okay, Mr. Period sex. Yeah, exactly. I, my guess it's not her. It's some person who just happens to look like her. I want that woman to come forward. And that, the guy next to that woman

is that person's partner. And they, like, why is raquel in jacksonville that's the most random fucking place it's tom playing there oh my god someone would never figure that out already pull up his tour schedule okay wait another thing i just want to quickly say i know that everyone thinks that raquel is still so ride or die like under tom's spell when i watched the finale i felt like tom was way more into her than vice versa, and that he was leaning in so hard to it because he knew

that he blew his life up, and he was like, alright, well, I'm going through something, midlife crisis, so this girl must be so magical that I ruined everything. Did no one else get that energy? No, I thought the cracks were when she was like, because Raquel said it when they're in the apartment where she's like but maybe if you did this to ariana that could

happen to me this to me like i can't trust anyone other than like my parents and sister and you and even you i can't maybe trust like i kind of read it as like tom was having this moment being like oh fuck like a crack like to put it in all too well terms like this is maybe her starting to separate from him yeah i think hard to say my guess is they both at moments thought they absolutely needed the other person and leaned on them i think they're both in reality in it for themselves and they just don't know what to do and like the at times they probably only have each other to talk to is there a perverse part of you that wants them to be together uh yes well as a vanderpump fan i think it's great for the show yeah i actually again have had good authority that the

cast actually arguably kind of says you know what fuck it be together if you're gonna it's like on the bachelor like on The Bachelor when they leave their first person go to the runner-up. It's like, you went through all that. I think they also want Raquel to come back in a weird way. They may not want to associate with her. It's like when the criminal gets killed instead of arrested. You want them to go and get arrested and go and face the crime and be tried and, you know, face justice, like almost like death seems too much of a easy way out. this the end of Rachel slash Raquel on Vanderpump it will feel like we will I think we all as fans and even the cast will be like well there's more to like

uncover there's more like to digest I think some of the cast almost wants Tom and Raquel to come on so they can like publicly shame them for an entire season you know like season 11 will all be about like just every opportunity they get to just fucking like make life hell for Tom and Raquel.

I would actually have so much more respect for her if she was able to not come back to the show, even though that's selfishly not what we want. The absolute healthiest thing for Raquel to do without question is to step away from the show. Do it like go treat her mental health, whatever it is. from the show do it like go treat her mental health whatever it is and take you know as she said in this you know statement that we all assumed was crafted by some sort of pr team to actually like try to take some accountability and despite her awkward reactions that seem out of touch that she is truly trying to turn her life around and, and quitting the show. Absolutely. Would I think would go a long way for her. Um, like,

don't you like one? Who was the, um, bachelor who was like, like Brad Womack, like ones who like kind of like moved to, like, I think he lives in Texas,

like has his own bars, like people like that who just sort of no shade, like you've become a very different thing, but like the ones who really like stuck to what they did before and like i think that there's a something to say for that too yeah i think brad walmack uh i don't know if anyone knows who we're talking about but that was a different time and if brad walmack was a two-time bachelor uh around the time when i was on the show, I think he might have made different choices. I think social media didn't allow,

there wasn't the platform that allowed certain people to say, hey, how do I keep this going? Is there an opportunity for me to make something on my own? Yeah. Because as big as the show was back then, once the show moved on to the next, there was really no way you had to keep getting asked to go back on

actual network television or some other tv shows and if those opportunities ran out people just kind of forgot about you now with social media maybe you can come up with a shtick or you know whether it's podcasting you can have your thing you have you have a chance for longevity and that just didn't exist before like that would mean mean she is, if she comes back, that means that she is really just interested in fame and money. Like, yes, I guess publicly,

like you could argue apologizing or redeeming herself in some way. Show some sort of moral, moral, well, like, or you could claim accountability. That's what she said going into the reunion. She's like, like you know i'm here to be held accountable for my actions you could you know i don't think it's right at all like opportunities that would subsequently come from

you redeeming yourself yeah but i guess and she would convince herself and i would understand why that she would want the chance of redemption on the show yeah that i'm not a narcissist i'm not a sociopath i'm not a bad person i did a a bad thing. And I want to prove to America that I am, you know, I'm not this person. Do you think that that is because you are always very opinionated on The Bachelor about editing and when people come off and blame things on the edit, you don't like that. So like with Vanderpump, obviously, we don't know how different the editing is there. But do you think that it's even within their control to be able to like come in and try to control their narrative moving forward? Tom and Raquel? I'm surprised, again, having only watched it once, the fact that it is season 10, just how much their post team like mocks them and like has no problem making them look bad.

I almost thought after 10 seasons they would have get some ingratiated yeah yeah some more control on those things or like power influence i yeah i i so they're gonna throw them to west i think yeah i think um it's a deal with the devil and uh yeah i i think the vanderpump people do a much better job than say bachelor people, because I think they probably have a more mentality like I have, where it's just like, we know what we're getting into. Literally, we accept the choices we make. It's a give and a take.

There are downsides to doing what we do, but there are also a lot of upsides and we just weigh the pros and cons. Yeah. But they're not going to sit there every time something doesn't go their way and try to like find a podcast and just be like, I was fucked and this is not who I am and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then when things go well for them, like, yeah, that was me. That was all my idea. I got no help. No one gave me this idea. I'm the hero of that story and yada, yada. I think they just kind of roll with the punches and they move on to the next.

It's also a different audience where it's just like with bachelor people, I think there's an unfairness type of expectation of because the stakes are, I guess, since lower that you can be vilified for like, you know, smacking your gum or, you know, something as trivial as that. I mean, if you imagine someone getting someone pregnant. Having sex with someone two weeks early, whatever you did. Whatever. Yeah, exactly.

Or, you know, dating someone three weeks before they went on the show, having not met the person they were supposed to fall in love with while competing with 29 other people. But God forbid they had a relationship with anyone else and then decided to end that relationship to go on TV. That is enough to vilify someone on Bachelor. Yeah. And in Vanderpump, you can get a stripper pregnant, lie about it,

and like, you know. And everyone wants you back on the show in 2023. And everyone moves on, and you know, like, you know, you got Jax Taylor out there, like, I mean, it's shocking. Yeah, why haven't you had Jax on here? Well, he has me blocked.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because I turned him down for a picture once when I was The Bachelor. Oh, rude. Yeah, I think he has, I think he fan I was The Bachelor. Oh, rude. Yeah, I think he fancies himself as quite an important guy.

I'm thinking, you were Tom Sandoval six years ago. Why the fuck as a bachelor would I want to take a picture with that guy? The guy who got a- You didn't know that at the time, and even then you didn't want to take a picture with him? I knew he had a bad reputation. I see. So I was currently The Bachelor. And Nick Vile has always been aware of his reputation. You are.

You're very mindful of it. Well, I don't always have the best, but I try to do what I can. And my season was airing. I was an engaged man that no one knew I was engaged i don't need to be taking a picture seeming like i'm like you know about town with uh jacks taylor who was out there doing all this shit so i was like no i'm good he got real mad okay final thoughts i guess my question is if tom or raquel would come on this podcast would you do it because do you think that there's a problem with platforming them no uh he's like no i want those clicks well listen it all depends on i don't think they're going to say yes because i would never problem the promise on the atmosphere that they were

like that holly promised tom i would try to be fair i wouldn't try to come in like hey you're a piece of shit and i'm just going to yell at you for an hour but i would try to have a real conversation with them and i would try to as someone who's been in Ariana's shoes before, I would try to see if I could get him to actually truly sound like he's accountable. And I'd try to see if he could have a conversation around, does he truly understand the impact that his choices have had on so many people? around does he truly understand the impact that his choices have had on so many people and i would try to challenge both of them the flip side of that argument is i think we have a we've gotten into a world where this like oh we don't want to platform so and so well i think that's a that's not okay i think we need to hear both sides and then we as we have heard

is that sure but i'm just saying like i I just think in general, big picture wise, I think the idea that we we can't platform certain people is a way to kind of bully people into only hearing one one side of the story. So I think it's how you would do the interview. You know, I think it would be a bad luck for the show if we had, say, Tom Sandoval on and the interview went the same as, say, Howie Mendel's. Then I think that criticism would be fair. Although I do think you are like,

one thing I have seen with you is like you always kind of come around a little bit on someone. I don't think you would leave being like, fuck this guy. My goal, anytime I have anyone, especially in reality TV, is to humanize them because regardless if you're Tom Sandoval or Raquel

or anyone else from Bachelor Nation, is like, you are seeing characters on a TV show and you're seeing siloed personalities and it comes with an edit and it comes with a soundtrack. We do live in a world where we're now just like painting people's black and white. You know, if, if someone hurts us, they're a narcissist or a sociopath, there can't be a

justification as to why, because we don't want to excuse people for hurting us. But when we make mistakes, you know, it's like, well, I had this and I had that. And you know, like, I don't think people are black and white. I don't think Tom Sandoval is a good guy. And I think, I don't believe he's actually really sorry, but I would like to like have an opportunity on a show to go through that line of questioning where I would actually put them in a corner where you'd have to like, I wouldn't give, I wouldn't ask him, I wouldn't ask him what was wrong with his relationship with Ariana. I would ask him, why do you keep bringing up your relationship with Ariana, I would ask him, why do you keep bringing up your relationship with Ariana to justify your choices? Why did you cheat? And as soon as he brought up the relationship, I would just be like, no, I don't care about like, no, why did you cheat despite the relationship being what it is, whatever it is? Why didn't you break up with Ariana? Why didn't you get a

couples therapy? Why did you claim that you're going to break up with her on Valentine's day when clearly you were hanging out with her on Valentine's Day. And she seemed to be thrilled about it. Tom Sandoval, this is your pitch. I'd love to get Schwartz on. I think Schwartz has... Schwartz is attainable for you, I feel. He also has a shot at redemption. He has to, like Raquel, I think he has to disassociate himself.

He needs to publicly... Denounce? Yeah, and explain why he understands. Listen, what I like about, I guess, even Sandoval to a certain... Loyalty, and people have heard me say this on the show, everyone claims to be loyal. Everyone. There's certainly characteristics that everyone says they are. Are you loyal? Of course. No one says, yeah, I'm not a loyal person. That's true. But most people aren't loyal. At the end of the day, they aren't loyal to other people. They don't know how to step up and be a friend.

And like, well, they might have bad pickers and they might have misguided loyalty. But Tom Schwartz is a loyal motherfucker. And I think as an adult, he has not learned the lesson that sometimes being a friend is offering tough love and stepping away from a friendship and not condoning bad behavior. Loyalty as an adult isn't protecting your friends while they hurt others. That's not loyalty. It's not blind. You shouldn't give blind loyalty. And I think a conversation around loyalty and growing up, I think, is an opportunity for Swartz to show people that he might be able to use this

horrible situation and learn and how can he be a better friend and a better partner? Because everyone I talk to has nothing but like nice. Anyone I talk to has met Swartz in person. Like maybe minus Katie has nice things to say about him. He he's fucking charming. He's a nice guy. You know, he he's thoughtful thoughtful but he just he backs the wrong fucking people that's an understatement yeah he does amy we could go on and on we could

we love an absolute pleasure good to see always good to see you please let my audience know where they can follow you read your content all the great things you're doing you can follow me on instagram and twitter amy k in la and i link to all my stories there the story about um randall came out last year a big investigation if you want to read that and we will be we're looking into some tips that we've come in since the documentary so there could be more to come on that if there are people out there who have a tip to give you yes they can reach me at my email address amy.koffman at latimes.com. Alright. Amy, come back anytime. Thanks, Nick.

We love Amy for coming on. Don't, as always, forget to send in those questions at asknick at thevilefiles.com. Stick with us on Thursday. It's going to be a wild and wacky episode for Going Deeper. We are going to be covering this big reveal, whatever it might be. We may have a special

guest, our pop culture correspondent Natalie Joy will be with us regardless. So whatever happens we will be covering it first thing in the morning on Thursday. So stick with us. It's going to be wild, wacky and fun. Don't forget a great update dropped on

Vile Files Plus. For all you update lovers out there, we have an amazing update special that dropped on vile files plus for all you update lovers out there we have an amazing update special that dropped on vile files plus last friday again we dropped two update specials every month behind vile files plus in addition to all your pop culture uh roundup specials your better date than never episodes if you don't get to listen to those live and coming soon vanderpump recap starting from season one. Oh, you're going to do it? Yeah. Yeah.

It's so good. I'm up to season five. All I want to do is talk about it. Yeah, it's problematic. Yeah. If you want to come back and recap those. Nice. Does Natalie's into it?

Oh, yeah. All right. Well, we'll see you on Thursday. Can't wait. Bye. Bye. Bye.