The Viall Files - E597 Going Deeper with Danielle Fishel Karp Plus Vanderpump Secrets Revealed

Episode Date: June 15, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper Edition! At the beginning of the episode, we are joined by our Pop Culture Correspondent to discuss the latest Vanderpump episode of unseen footage from Season 10. Then, we are joined by Danielle Fishel Karp to talk about motherhood and parenting styles, how she feels about the viral birthday party debate, if she would want her children to work as actors, and what other careers she’s considering later in life. Finally, we have a Sweating the Wedding caller who isn’t sure how to support her sister, who has been engaged three times in the last four years. She wants to give her some tough love, but is afraid of losing their relationship altogether.  “Kids pick up on everything.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Be Free By Danielle Fishel: https://www.befreebydaniellefishel.com/ Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com   If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Rothy’s - For stylish and comfortable shoes, shop Rothy’s. Get $20 off your first purchase at https://www.rothys.com/THEVIALL Canva - Collaborate with Canva for Teams! Right now, you can get a FREE 45-day extended trial when you go to canva.me/viall IQ Bar - Now get twenty percent off all IQBAR products, plus get FREE shipping. To get your twenty percent off, just text FILES to sixty-four thousand. Paramount Plus - Embrace reality. Paramount Plus. Stream now.  Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @daniellefishel @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell 

what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files going deeper edition i'm your host nick joined by the household of ally amanda and derek and our pop culture correspondent natalie joy is with us today how's everyone doing what's going on how's me how did um pop culture correspondent come about who made that up i did yeah you did just popped in my head one day while you were sitting there really do you not like it? No love. I just didn't realize it was you that was so creative. So, you know, every once in a while. Yeah, so lots to get into. We have an amazing episode for you. Our special guest today, Danielle Fishel-Karp is with us.

You might know her from Boy Meets World to Panga. Love. Legendary for me, really. I was meeting a childhood hero of mine. I didn't let her know that but um you played it cool i played it cool i played it very cool uh what a delightful person really awesome conversation yeah so cool all the moms or aspiring moms or parents out there what a fun conversation about relationships parenting all that fun stuff i i had a an interest in all the things that she

i was so impressed how she was so relatable, but wise. You know what I mean? I feel like she had so many amazing takes, but it was all said in such a way that was so conversational and easygoing. I felt nourished after that conversation. When I meet someone who is a childhood star, it's a dice

roll. And they're really normal, I'm always just like, wow, what a surprisingly down-to-earth, grounded person know because it really can go either way you know when you're like that famous as a kid because boy meets world was a big fucking deal it's still a big deal met the world yeah it's wild anyway before we get to danielle uh we have a lot to cover obviously the episode what is it Secrets Revealed Vanderpump is that what it was called yeah interesting episode and then I we

Natalie and I went back and watched the reunion the unedited version again which they honestly like left out a decent amount there was definitely a lot of meat on the bone like it didn't change any of the context per se, but it definitely gave.

Jesus. What? My burp? You're like, you can burp mid talk and just have no issue. You just keep on chugging. He's a stone cold professional. It's no like,

Oh, excuse me. Or like, I'm so sorry. It's just like, we're just going to keep going. No, it's like

you throw up in your mouth yeah okay anyway uh yeah it wasn't like oh my god now that we've seen this it changes every clearly it that didn't happen also now and i went to lunch the other day we ran into ally and they were having yeah wonderful what very sweet i really i've really ali's really grown on me just honestly through well well, we met, we got to meet her and, but watching her even, you know, I think early on in season 10, she comes across as kind of more youthful and quiet and demure. And I don't think she's really any of those things. I mean, she's even older than I had anticipated.

And then I think she's very well respected amongst the group. Totally. I think people will often mistaken Ali, you know, she's quiet, but I think she's very well respected amongst the group and she I think people will often mistaken Allie you know she's quiet but I think she listens and I think she's pretty smart and she seems more than willing to stand up for herself but she's not you know she doesn't have that kind of lala energy which is very kind of punchy at times confrontational in your face, edgy where Ali is more. She'll listen and she'll be quiet. But I don't I don't I don't take her as a pushover at all.

Totally. I feel like getting to know her more. I look back at the first times when we were kind of introduced to her and I feel like it was a lot of like cutting off before she said something in the scene where like at first my impression was just like, oh, she always asks James if they're going to drink. And that like, like you know it just seemed very much like she was following his lead and now i'm like oh it's one of those like reality tv editing moments where you're like there could have been so much more before and after that where she's calling shots like very much a partner if not the one in charge and so i feel like that's really like show proven to be more and more true that's like anyway this was the day after the reunion aired and now that i went to lunch and we ran into ally and she's like oh i'm meeting the producers to talk about like next season and i don't that's all she really said like my role like her role and like you know like what like what's the story

gonna be you know and things like that so that was we tried to pay the hostess to put us next to him so we could listen no No, I'm just kidding. But after we were done, I went over and said, hey guys, congratulations on the nice season. They seemed like they wanted nothing to do with it. They seemed like they saw a ghost. I mean, someone covers the show like a secret meeting

out in the wild, but we got to see it all in action. There were a couple moments from the deleted scenes of the reunion I thought were interesting. One, it was just kind of hysterical, which was Tom Sandoval earnestly asking for the definition of mistress. Yeah. He's like, well, isn't a mistress when...

And he was like... And obviously, everyone else was like, shut the fuck up, Tom. And he's like, no, really. But he was being earnest about it everyone else was like, shut the fuck up, Tom. And he's like, no, really. But he was being earnest about it. It was almost kind of funny. That was just kind of a whatever. And then there was a scene where they were coming back from a break. And Lala asked Ariana, she gave her a situational question.

asked Ariana, she like gave her like a situational question and she goes, and it was basically some version of how do you think he would have felt if, if Tom came to you and said, Hey, I have developed some feelings for Raquel and I just want to be upfront with you. So basically, Lala asked Ariana how she thinks she would have handled or felt about the situation if instead of this seven-month physical cheating, call it affair, happened, that instead that we would, you know, she kind of acknowledged that by definition, it would have been an emotional, at that point. To be in a relationship and come to someone and say, I've developed feelings for someone else, you've had to have emotionally stepped out at some point for those feelings to develop. You don't just wake up and have feelings. You were open to those feelings. Nevertheless, she propositioned Ariana with this

question of how do you think you would have felt if Tom said, hey, I've developed feelings for your friend? And I thought it was kind of interesting only because like, you imagine if had that would have happened, I think it would have been just as devastating in a sense. Because now it sounds so mature and the lesser of two evils and yeah hey I'm gonna do the very difficult thing and acknowledge this thing and that was the right thing to do to be clear that would have been the right thing to do but I do think it would have felt just as devastating if if Tom came and that was kind of her answer she you know she said I would have said it's either me and you or you never fucking see her again yeah and then she was like but do you think you

would be like as mad and she was like I think in the beginning but like eventually no it was interesting that Ariana kind of her quick response was that she wouldn't have left Tom she would have set a boundary of you can never be like, we're done with Raquel. And then we're going to work on whatever issues that we have that have led to this, you know, you stepping out of the relationship. But it's interesting that she, but I wonder, I wonder if that's true. You know, imagine out of nowhere, your partner comes to you and says, I've developed feelings for your friend. Oh my God, just the blow that would have felt like. I mean, it's an interesting question to pose to Ariana post finding out everything she knew, which it sounds so watered down and such a better option. But I honestly don't know if it would have played out. It's just an interesting question for a lot of the Poes at that time,

given the circumstances. Totally. And I do think we saw Ariana being like a ride or die in a true sense of the word, like from the very beginning of the relationship, like even knowing like because she knew about Miami Girl and she was like i'm just like on your team and so i do believe her more than other people when she says i would have stood by and be like let's figure it out because i think she was just so in that headspace and it took

something really really extreme to like shatter that yeah and i'm not even i'm not and i'm not doubting well i guess i'm doubting a little bit because you know hindsight is 2020 but i'm not doubting, well, I guess I'm doubting a little bit because hindsight is 20-20, but I'm not criticizing if she would want it to. I imagine that being a very difficult thing to hear. It'd be really interesting to go back in time if there was a way to do it to see what that actual reaction would be. I also will say having watched it back, I don't know if this is a hot take but i found myself not having necessarily more empathy but i felt like sandoval and raquel i saw them more as like just flawed human beings rather than

the monsters that obviously bravo nation and the rest of the cast are certainly describing them as and painting this picture. She went over to their house with flowers and said, I haven't seen you in a while. Meanwhile, 10 hours before they were like canoodling in a corner at boys night. Well, now we're talking about the secrets revealed episode. Yeah. Yeah. Which it's hard not to talk about because there were some stuff that was very evocative.

Listen, I mean, that's the thing is watching it back. It's not that what they did was any less fucked up i find it so interesting again most we talked about this last time most of it was about like the lying and the deceit that they felt bad about not the actual act itself tom made a comment i don't know if this part was in the i always got confused like was that in the original episode or was it not in the unedited but tommy the comment saying like why wouldn't we lie about this and i thought that was an interesting point i'm not saying i agree with him but a lot of people lie you know lying is a very common thing sadly you know and like we go how could you how could you as if everyone like hasn't lied before i just thought like just hearing his pov i don't agree with his assessment i'm just saying it humanized him to say we we knew we were doing this horrible thing like of course i lied at least that to me it made it seem like tom acknowledged

at least he knew how terrible the thing he was doing was, as opposed to focusing on the lie. Because to me, that's him having some sort of self-awareness of, I'm doing this terrible thing and I know it's going to hurt someone. By definition, that is a weird way of having empathy. And again, don't confuse my comments with me justifying it. I just thought it was interesting because people ask, well, how could you lie about this? And I think it was just Tom's selfishness for him to decide he's going to do what he was going to do. But I just thought it was interesting that the way he said is like, well, of course I would

lie about this terrible thing I was doing. I was doing a terrible thing. And then when you think about it from that lens, you're like, okay. I mean, how many times do you always hear people say, well, I didn't want to hurt their feelings. This is just a heightened version of that. Yeah. And I think it's really easy to like understate temptation. And to be fair, a lot of us like resist temptation and don't do the shitty thing as is very fair to expect of people. That being said, it is very easy when talking about it to forget to like kind of downplay like how big a force that can be to folks in the moment, like how much it must have been this like horrible, like, oh, it's we know we shouldn't, but now it's hotter and all these, you know, it's like there are things where it kind of like

just like they're dopamine receptors. They were just like trying to get the next like dopamine hit. And it's like really shit. And this is not to say that like, oh, anyone could end up in this situation because it's like, no, you make compromising choices that get you there. But it is one of those things where you're right. Like once you're there, there's like a human element of it that's like we'd rather not empathize with it because we'd rather not feel in any way close to these like egregious actions.

But like you can kind of make a comparison. There was also a scene that they cut out where Raquel finally showed some sort of emotion and was like sobbing when she when she was done and her and Tom kind of walked back and they were bringing Sheena back on. And she was kind of sobbing, being like, I don't want to hurt people. I don't want to be the person that hurts people. And Tom was just kind of sobbing being like i don't want to hurt people i don't want to be the person that hurts people and tom was just kind of like yeah but they cut all of that out and skipped to her being like and james's comment about ally like that really but it was just interesting how they cut out the part that truly was her like showing emotion and being a human and being like no like we fucked up and we did a terrible thing and i don't want to be this person yeah yeah i was dying at lisa's um when she was talking about

why tom was always defending raquel and she goes well we know why now she was he was in more than her corner yeah i will say though i do think in like 18 months, I might have a radically different take on the situation and Raquel's role. Like I could really and I think it would have been honestly kind of condescending to immediately assume like, oh, she was entirely manipulated. She had no autonomy. She had no idea what was happening. Tom was a mastermind and she was just a little pawn in a scheme. Like I think that like strips her as like an adult woman who is capable of making choices. just a little pawn in a scheme like I think that like strips her as like an adult woman who is capable of making choices I do think in 18 months though maybe like once we have some distance from the situation and especially if Raquel like actually does the work and does some like real

like mental health deep dives there would be like an explanation where I would be like damn like you were really in a very vulnerable kind of like compromising social position. And that was like capitalized on by someone else. I'm way more critical of of especially Tom of how they've both handled it post-Revelation than the necessarily the act itself. And Tom with the T-shirt comments and every, you know, his his kind of victim blaming and shit like that. He just doesn't seem to really, as we've talked about over and over, he's sorry he's lost his relationship. And I think he's sorry he hurt Ariana, but it never really, he still thinks he's justified. And there was that

comment that they cut out where like, Lisa had a conversation with him, which is basically like, hey, you're just going to have to take your beating and apologize. And like, they're mad now, but you just never know what's going to happen in the future. Which, you know, was actually pragmatic advice from Lisa. You know, and there was that part, you know, that part where, you know, Andy asked Raquel, like, do you think there's any we're going forward with his relationships? And Ariana cut in and she's just like, I'll never forgive you. And you can really, really feel her anger. Also, I just wanted to point out, because obviously there were some, I saw a lot of reactions from Bravo Nation. There were people who started turning on Ariana and Lala. Lala had since come out and said, I felt a little bad. I

thought we were a little harsh on Raquel, yada, yada, yada. I still give Ariana a total pass. Again, these are people who have agreed to film a reality TV show and generously share their truly personal lives with an audience for entertainment purposes. And they've kept that bottled up. So again, Ariana had a right to express herself. Even if those words were just nasty and ugly words, I'm assuming that Ariana does not like that she feels that way. I'm sure she doesn't like that she said these things, but was talking about how I'll never be friends with you, Ariana needs to get over this. And I think she will. I really do. to get over this and i think she will i really do i mean if ariana is still to the point where she is holding on to this type of anger in a year there's something's gone wrong don't you think i think the and granted my situation like different for sure but like if i saw the girl who like because the girl my boyfriend like cheated on me with like was a friend she was the first person to ever book me on a stand-up show and i was also really pissed about the role

of alcohol that night like i thought it was really fucked up that she hooked up with him when like whatever if i saw like i'm over it i do not think about this woman if i saw her again like it would get to you you'd have an emotional response i think i would just like walk up to whatever group she's in and be like, hey, really hope you're not having sex with people who are blackout drunk still. And then walk away. You would do that. Like I would want to say something to her. Like I would because I'd be like.

How long ago was this? Three and a half years. Three and a half years. So it's like, I don't think about it. I don't fantasize about getting revenge. But if I saw her, I'd be like, sweetheart, actions still have consequences. getting revenge but if i saw her i'd be like sweetheart actions still have consequences but what but you have no idea what work she's done or hasn't done or i think you can be over something but still be like if you're in the same room as someone you might have some stuff to say

you would have a right to say it but i guess i'm just almost surprised to hear that it would still affect you this much that you would walk up to them and like calm out in a crowd clearly the people that she would be around yeah i have no idea what you're talking about and you would try to embarrass her um that's okay no judgment i just i appreciate your honesty yeah i don't is it embarrassing if you're stating a fact but like you clearly are saying you're saying in a way that i could see the look on your face that you would you would want her to feel shame amongst her peers if she's feeling shame for me stating a fact about an action she's done that's on her is what i will

say that's on her but i'm just saying like ariana right she she's literally become american sweetheart like she was you know following following the, the revelation, she understandably was just like, and very vulnerably, like, I miss him, you know, as much as I hate him, I miss him. And Oh, what a, what a, what a human thing to acknowledge and say since the time has passed, you know, I, I, it seems like she's got a clear, like acceptance of who Tom Sandoval really is and his lack of ability to be the partner. I think she wanted him to be over time. Right. And I just feel like, not to mention, like her world literally changing for what seems to be better. She's in this new relationship. I just wonder at some point she's going to look back,

even if it's like eight months or 12 months and think, thank you. Literally, thank you. Thank you. My life has turned upside down in the best possible way. I am out of what I hope she realizes was a not healthy and toxic relationship. And I hope that this whole situation has woken her up when it comes to friends she chooses to surround herself with and who she really calls friends. I mean, what a heartbreaking scene in the final secrets where her and Tom are on that date roller skating. She's talking about how much love she has for Raquel. She said, you're going to have to work really hard

to get me not to love Raquel. And like talks about how she's a part of like the friendship family. Yeah. And we've talked about this like friendship family, which it seems like the friendship family with Brad and Ariana, like as lovely as they might be, like, I don't, were they really watching out for each other? Or was it such a kind of kumbaya kind of like, they weren't, they clearly didn't kind of change how they handle friendships, specifically Ariana? I hope that for Ariana's sake, that as time passes, she's grateful she's out of this relationship with Tom. Her life, she is thriving. I mean, at what point do you just let, minus the ego, the ego of the embarrassment you felt and the shame. She wasn't embarrassed. I know. But like, well, even if that's true, if that's true and I'm glad she feels that way, I'm

glad she's articulating that, you know, but like it's sometimes you have to fake it till you make it before you really feel it. Right. But to that end, if she truly isn't embarrassed, if she has the kind of mental, emotional intelligence to recognize that the only reason I would feel embarrassed is that I'm allowing my ego to trigger my feelings, but she recognizes that she shouldn't. And so that if it ain't much, she's not incredibly thankful, quite honestly, that Tom and Raquel did this. Well, that's what Lala said. She was like, how grateful are you that they showed you that they're toxic, terrible people. And now you can finally close the chapter on them and live your life. And that's what I'm saying. But right now, she's just not there yet. And that makes total sense. I'm just saying if time passes, it takes so much energy to stay angry it really does yeah it just it dies down i just hope she gets to a place that i don't expect her ever to be friends with rachel

anymore and certainly not tom but like to get to a place where if she were to see raquel that she wouldn't be triggered she'd almost be like i don't know i never would have thought you would have changed my life for the better thank you but they're on a tv drama. So like, do you not think she would lean into that? And just like while filming, just like. I'm more talking about what she actually thinks behind closed doors. Okay. Well, you know what we get to see? I don't know.

But I also think that how empowering would it be to see Ariana like on season 11? And let's say Raquel and Tom both come back that at some point she's like, you know what? I don't really feel anything when I see him. I'm just not mad. I'm just over it. I'm thriving. My life is infinitely better than it was a year ago when I was still with Tom Sandoval. And if I'm just objectively looking at my life today versus my life a year ago, it is so much fucking better. And if all that had to happen was for Tom and Raquel to fuck for me to get to this place, I would do it again. That's the question you have to ask Ariana a year from now is that, would you do this all again? There is no other scenario. You can't get to where you are

today if that doesn't happen. Would you go through it all again? Or could you erase that and still be with Tom? But I think all the credit should go to her. Like, I think if she's like doing, having a Phoenix moment and rising from the ashes. I don't think they deserve medals or praise for doing what they did. It's just more of a turning anger into gratitude. Gratitude being that feeling that, as we wrote in Don't Text Your Ex Happy Birthday,

and by we, I mean me. And I didn't learn that. I learned it from someone else. But gratitude is the only feeling that can't turn toxic. It doesn't have a toxic opposite. Hate, love, hate, happiness, sadness, they all have this toxic opposite. That if you have a feeling and if something changes, it could turn into an opposing toxic feeling. And gratitude is the one feeling that can't turn toxic. So how does she turn this anger and this hatred that she has for Tom and Raquel

that doesn't serve her. It doesn't do anything positive and turn that into like, I'm just grateful for the way things played out. As painful as it was, I wouldn't change anything because my life today is so much better. And I just think that that should be Ariana's goal. And to do that, you do have to get to a place where you don't say, if I saw her, I'd walk up to her and I would say the very thing that I'm just saying it's ironic because I'm friends with all my exes but it's like at a certain point it's like if you're cut off you're cut off yeah I don't think she should be friends with her it's just more like I would love her get to a place where if she like isn't filming a show with Raquel, right? They just kind of go about their lives. And then six months later, they're out

and she runs into Raquel out in West Hollywood somewhere for the first time in six months. That is like weird as it is. She's almost like, honestly, thanks. I mean, when I got cheated on, by my then fiance back in the day, I ran into him, right? And I remember taking a shot with him and I didn't

say anything, but I was just like, honestly, it was just like, thank you. I literally felt gratitude because a year had removed and I was just like, glad I wasn't with her. And this is someone that I was prepared to marry at the time. And had I not found out, I might have. I truly felt like gratitude for like, you know, I still kind of hated him you know i didn't like him i wasn't trying to be his friends but like i was like thanks you know i'm glad it happened and i never would have imagined that what were you friends with him before no never i think maybe that's where like no i get out like there's like a person i'm not i get i get that in like kind of on the topic of like friendships and like what did you make of the scenes we saw of Katie and Sheena and some of like their attention?

Because it was definitely one of those stories where it like got sidelined because of Scandaval. We were all obsessed with the way Raquel was behaving on stage or like on screen, knowing what we know now. But in seeing like those extended cuts, like the scene where Katie shows up and it's kind of like tense between her and Sheena. Like, what did you think? Well, I'm going to change. I'm going to stay on Katie. Katie shows up and it's kind of like tense between her and Sheena. Like, what did you think? I'm going to change. I'm going to stay on Katie. I just don't care about Katie and Sheena all that much.

That fight, per se, given like everything that's gone out. But I just that deleted scene of her and Tom back when they still live together. Yeah. The divorcee goes crying on the bed and gordo is humping a pillow and they like keep trying to like frame gordo out of the shot and tom is having this like sad moment they're talking about what to do with this photo of them and if they keep it when they start dating other people and gordo is just going to town i don't feel like as much as i'm glad ariana has gotten the love and praise and support that she's had. I really feel like Katie's been shortchanged this season. I really do. I feel for her so bad because she has always

been consistent. And it's almost sad for her. When Andy asked her, do you think you'll ever want to have kids? And Katie said it was more about starting a family with someone and less about having kids and things like that. And Katie has always was more about like starting a family with someone and less about like having kids and things like that. And Katie has always been very consistent with like, I didn't want this. I didn't want to get a divorce. I wanted someone who wanted to be my partner. And I wanted the person I got married to, to commit to the things that like they promised when we got married. just so sad to see tom and katie express this love and like swartz having this unwillingness to just do this for her you know like it i do i really felt for katie and it's like a sad story

and to me it's almost more tragic you know at least ariana got the gift of like this horrible that she got the gift to hate to truly hate sandoval yeah in a way in a fucked up way he gave her that gift where katie's stuck in this kind of purgatory of swartz's charm and his friendliness and like even with katie i'm sure she'll see glimpses of why she fell in love with him in the first place and yet it's just like this dull pain of the guy who's just never willing to go out of his way to prioritize you in the relationship, even though you're married. And it's such a fucking bummer. I feel like that's one of the hardest things to know about dating is like, for me, like kind of the way I frame it is like there are certain ways

where it's like I would really like to be aligned with a partner, but there's other ways where it's like I would really like someone who balances me out. Like you talk about how like Natalie keeps you very present all the time. And like, you know, it's really nice to have like an overthinker, very like in the moment, like someone who's capable of like getting you out of that, like how it's so nice to have people who are different because you can really like help each other and you can both benefit from like your skill set. And I think it's really hard to know, like, at what point does the balance go too far and become incompatibility?

Because I think there's a version where it's like if Schwartz just was a little bit better at like having Katie's back and taking her side when push came to shove, there's a world where it could be great that he's like, you know,

Katie's like call it like she sees it very definitive, like knows when to cut people off. Schwartz is a little more like mild mannered and open. And like there's a world where they could have balanced each other out so beautifully but he just couldn't

get his shit together yeah it's just like I imagine and I don't know this for sure but I'm only basing off what I've watched that like if you know Tom was out working at Thomas Sandoval and like let's say Tom what the fuck Schwartz and Sandy's Tom and Sandoval

I'm surprised you didn't call his name tom and the sandoval's that like all of a sudden sworch comes home at like nine o'clock unexpected maybe some flowers maybe some ice cream a movie i don't fucking know whatever it is that katie likes and she's like what are you doing home he's just like yeah i just had i had the gang they they can handle it they know what you're doing i hire the right people i i just missed you and i wanted to come home and i don't want to drink with the boys i just wanted to be with you that would blow her i would have blowed her mind you know talk about bare minimum shit and like it just it makes me so sad that something so simple is all that Katie ever wanted and Schwartz could never give it to her.

I love that every VPR recap you ride for Katie. Because it's like, it's, she just wasn't. And bringing it back to Katie and Tom. Yeah. Because I mean. Quickly, I'll just bring up Katie and Tom. It's so easy to forget. We have, it's so easy to empathize with Ariana's heartbreak because of the scandal.

And I think it's harder to empathize with Katie's heartbreak because of the amicability, you know, of the breakup. And yet that doesn't mean that in any way that Katie's heart wasn't any, in any less pain and the sadness behind it. And to feel like we were so fucking close. All you had to fucking do is just try try just fucking try and it just really makes me sad for her it just it's a bummer and i just feel like that got lost in the scandal right scandal of it all yeah that was such a like good scene to see and speaking

of scenes how about that scene of the what we the alleged morning after of the very first time that tom and raquel hung out when she walks in with flowers when she walks in with flowers it says i haven't seen you in a while yeah in a long time and she's bringing the flowers for charlotte the dog their dog that passed away and then sits there on the ground and talks about how she like made out with oliver oliver and the way that tom sandoval is looking at her. I've never seen a middle-aged man give so much attention to

some random, you know, dating story. Vegas hookup. Like some Vegas, like some, you know. Yeah, in that moment. Office drama, basically. He was like the head of the brunch gang with the mimosas, like that. Like, you know that friend who was like that level of like interested, who was like, okay, and then what? You know, like ask all the good questions. Like he was intrigued. Yeah, like imagine like like you know that friend who was like that level of like interested who was like okay and then what you know like ask all the good questions like he was intrigued

like imagine like you know like every boyfriend or husband who comes home from work and or the wife's like well you know you'll never guess what happened at work and the guys are like and i wonder i wonder if like after that story like he acted all like interested and like you know good for you raquel but i wonder if like later on that day if that like made him jealous if like he texted her and was like what the fuck like you made out with Oliver like why the fuck would you do that and like come here and like rub that in my face like I wonder if he's like a jealous type and like if he would I feel like he'd be the type should not even get like aggressive I feel like he'd almost get off on it like the next time that they hooked up he'd

be like so like tell me I do this better than Oliver. It could go either way. Yeah. One line from Tom Sandoval. This was when him and Ariana are rollerblading. And it's like, again, after he is already. He's a sweaty Betty. Fuck Raquel.

And he like compliments her, then makes a joke, be like hot, like sweaty. And I was like, give her the fucking compliment. And then later on, he says, no, really? Like you're a lovely dance of hot and cute and that line really got me because it's like fuck sometimes people like before the whole thing has been shattered and you know who they truly are like they can say things that are really beautiful and really meaningful he stole that line from stupid crazy literally the perfect combination of like what sexy and sweet oh my god sexy and cute sexy and cute yeah oh yeah but a lovely but a lovely dance like that's fun i mean he definitely stole

a cover band he's good at just like making things his own yeah but like you know like having a partner like say stuff like this and the whole like how did you not know were you turning a blind eye and it's like sure i'm sure there were some ways where she might like looking back be like yeah i was a little willfully ignorant of X, Y, Z signs. But there were also ways that he was being like very kind of charming and like loving. I don't think we live in these like, as I will always say, we we have to stop watering down the meaning of certain words. Sociopath, narcissist, gaslighter, things like that. When if we operate in a black and white,

then they just lose their meaning. Everyone can't be a malignant narcissist type of thing. We all can be narcissistic. We all have narcissism in our body. There's good narcissism. There's videos out there. It's important to take care of yourself. Self-love, taking pride in yourself. It matters. You have to take care of yourself. Self-love, taking pride in yourself, it matters. You have to have moments of thinking about what you need first before being a people pleaser and constantly not considering yourself. So I don't think Tom is a malignant narcissist, or I don't think Raquel is a sociopath or things like that. I think they're deeply flawed humans. And I hope the absolute best for Raquel, and I really hope she's working on that. I think they're deeply flawed humans. And I hope the absolute best for

Raquel. And I really hope she's working on herself. I do have still very little hope for Tom. And I would love, whether it's on a podcast or out in the street, I would love to just be like, what don't you get about why everyone else is so frustrated at you? And why do you constantly, if you're sorry, why do you constantly feel the need to try to explain your actions rather than just acknowledge that they were shitty? And then what are you doing to actually change that behavior so that the, you know, cheating on Kristen, you know, with Ariana and then cheating on Ariana with Raquel and all these other rumored alleged rumors of infidelity don't happen again because nothing about what you have said like makes anyone believe anything else

that and and while you might not be a narcissist these are people's feelings and you can fuck up people's lives and it can be very hurtful to the people you claim to love and so you are well maybe not like dangerous to the point where, you know, Tom's like, I'm not a, I'm not a murderer. That was another like deleted scene where at least a serial killer,

I'm not a serial killer because like, they're kind of talking to him as if like, you know, he's taking it literally like, Oh, you're fucking dangerous. And he's taking it as like, well,

you're dangerous. I'm not, I'm not killing anyone. I'm, I've never even heard a butterfly, so to speak, but what he doesn't like take into account. And you could include Schwartz and anyone else who just constantly is always considering their needs before others, is that at some point, when you betray someone you claim to

love, it can really destroy them. And to date you is such a liability for anyone, especially if you're going to ask for their trust. And it's like, that's why you're dangerous. You're dangerous for people, for them to give you their trust and ever count on you. And that's why you're a liability. And I think if they could have that nuanced conversation, I wonder if Lights would go on. Because it doesn't do anyone any good to just be like, you're a fucking monster. You're a fucking sociopath. It's like, okay, well, lock them up and throw away the keys. Because I don't know. Interesting though. Vanderpump, what a gift. Don't forget, we have another episode of Better Date Than Never live tonight at 9pm

Eastern. We're talking roommates, all things related to dating and sex and roommates, sock on the door. How do you deal with your roommate dating someone and bring them to the house every day or hookups or things like that. A lot of things to navigate. It's going to be a fun and interesting episode. Before we end, I have to just talk about this. What? I texted Allie about this last night

because it happened for, I don't know, maybe the fourth time. Nick, you are like a terrible... Oh my God. No, what is it called? I knew exactly what you were talking about, but I don't know if there's like a specific human. What is it called? I knew exactly what you were talking about, but I don't know if there's like a specific phrase. I think maybe just like subtlety isn't a strong suit. Like I will be

there will have company over and maybe like, I don't know, their shoes are on the couch or like they're they're doing something that like, you know, I'm kind of like and it's Nick's friends. I'm like, Nick, like I'm trying to know what you're talking about no i could see sorry what natalie's trying to get my attention

what's that natalie and i'm like oh nothing i'm totally it's literally i told ally i said it's literally when you're a kid and you're at your friend's house and you're like hey like i'm hungry do you have anything to eat you're like oh yeah come on let's go and then they're like mom natalie's hungry no i'm not absolutely and that is what you do you have no sense what i literally texted nick my brother came my brother his brother sam came in town and he we're trying to like no shoes in the house like it's pretty fucking gross to wear your shoes in your house right like disgusting so we're really trying to start that habit and i noticed that like sam was wearing his shoes on the white rug and like i don't want to be this like bitch it's like can you take your shoes off so i texted nick and i just like hey like shoes i before that

i had tried several times to just like get his attention and like and he's like what natalie's not and i'm like no it's everything's good so then I text him and I say like hey so then he's like where's my phone he goes out to his car to get his phone comes back inside is standing by the front door like nowhere Sam is nowhere in his eyesight and he just goes Sam can you take your shoes off I'm like what the fuck first of all that's not true his shoes were in his shoes were in my eyesight motherfucker I I I thought about that as soon as i said that you're really like she'd be so mad at me but his shoes were in my eyesight and i didn't make it a big thing i didn't say nellie wants your shoes off i just always say sam can you take your shoes off it was as if i noticed this after coming back inside and taking my shoes off for me a track

no one's ever accused me of being a subtle king. I'm like, read my lips or my eyes. And he's just like, I can't hear you, Natalie. What are you mouthing to me? I'm like, literally nothing. Absolutely nothing. What is the big deal? Come on.

Take your shoes off. It reminds me of that TikTok from the night that you proposed where you're like, check. And then Nick's like, check. So aggressive. I just got things to do. No, that happened. That happened one time we had a company meeting. I forget what we were meeting on. It was the three of us.

Derek, you were on the Zoom. And Kiki was getting tested for something. I was like a mess. I was even sobbing. I was like, Kiki's dying. I think your neck. Was it the time where your neck was like? No no that was over two years but this was like i thought kiki was dying kiki was like at the vet getting all these tests i'm like sobbing but i'm like

whatever i'll pull my shit together and i think amanda tried to text nick a private message in the zoom chat that was like hey like just so you know like kiki's blah blah blah and nick's in the middle he's like hey guys so i just want to tell you hey kiki is in the bed too much going on i i don't i don't have the bandwidth for you know i don't see your nuance it was only you know it was for you ultimately so it's like if it didn't happen then someday we'll have an episode called working for nick and you guys could all just yeah vent you know like what is it uh what's the airing of grievances yeah what is what's the holiday festivus festivus yeah you can have a Festivus. Yeah. The airing of grievances. Yeah. All right. Well, again, we have a fantastic episode with Danielle Fishel-Karp. We also have an amazing Sweat in the Wedding call. Sad. Tough. Yeah. Relatable. Very relatable. If

you have loved ones or friends that are just making bad decisions for themselves and you just don't know what to do, this one's for y'all uh don't forget to send in those questions at ask nick at the vile files.com for all things ask nick texting office hours sweat in the wedding also by the way we covered some more vanderpump on episode this past episode of freestyle if you haven't checked that out also we went and did the bachelor bios it's me natalie the team the household and elise gilfoyle. It's a hilarious episode. Whether you plan on watching The Bachelorette this season or not,

I promise you, you will laugh your ass off. So if you haven't checked it out, even if it's for the Vanderpump content, go check it out. You will be glad you did. Also, it might make you want to watch the upcoming season. I promise you, it's pretty funny. We get into part two next week with Elyse on Freestyle, and sure, we'll have more pop culture roundup topics

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create all of these inefficiencies. Canva thinks of everything. I am so grateful for all of the tools they have specifically to cater to collaborative work environments where sometimes you need to make sure you're all on the same page, whether it's consistent formatting for like a deck you're working on together or whether it's just like, you know, knowing which draft of the project you're working on. Canva for Teams makes sure you can all be in sync with one another. I really love the branding kit that they have. So we have our, you know, our go-to fonts, our go-to colors, and it's all accessible. So any project I'm working on, I can go click that

and all of my teammates are using that. So we just know there will be like consistency and cohesion across all of our work. Well, and especially now that we're kind of expanding our team as well, we're all working on social media. We're all working on videos. We're all adding updates to the website and all of those need to be cohesive across the board. And Canva has options for all of that. And it allows everybody on the team to create those things, to edit those things. And it just makes perfect sense that we'd all be working with the same colors, the same fonts, everything so that it shouldn't be obvious who's doing what. It should just be one team effort. everything so that it shouldn't be obvious who's doing what. It should just be one team effort.

Collaborate with Canva for teams. That's right. Right now, you can get a free 45-day extended trial when you go to canva.me slash V-I-A-L-L. That is C-A-N-V-A dot M-E slash V-I-A-L-L for a free 45-day extended trial. Canva.me slash V-I-A-L-L. Your last name has the same thing that my last name has, which is everyone wants to make my name rhyme. Danielle Fischel. And I'm always like, no, it's just Danielle Fischel. And so I was, when I was thinking like how to say your name, I was like, I wonder if it's vile because it goes then straight into files.

Yeah, I fucked up. It's vile. The files. No into files yeah I fucked up it's vile the vials the vials literally Topher Grace came up with the title my acting coach is like you know we had known him and Ashley

Topher's wife was she was my very first guest this is when I was just like fuck it I'll start a podcast and we were just you know and I couldn't think of a name and Top tofer's like how about the vile fouls and i'm like fine you know and then i didn't really didn't think it through no one can really pronounce my last name it's just like it just made it worse did he know how your name was actually no obviously no obviously not no i was like rhymes ish it's a slant rhyme. Yeah, sure. Not nothing.

If you rush through it. I mean, if we were battle rappers, they would call that a rhyme. Yeah. I remember when I was interviewing for the job and everyone was just like, Nick Vile, Nick Vile, Nick Vile. And that's how I said your name. And I had one friend, Michelle, who's like a diehard fan. And she was like, Nick Vile. And I remember thinking, I was like, why is she being so bougie with it? I was like, just say Vile like the rest of us. And she was just, Nick Viall. And I remember thinking, I was like, why is she being so bougie with it?

I was like, just say Viall like the rest of us. And she was just like, Viall. And then it turns out she's the one that was right. It's like when people say Reese's Pieces. And I'm like, no, no, no. That's how you know for sure it's Reese's. Because they called it Reese's Pieces. It's definitely not Reese's. It's not Reese's Peanut Butter Cups because it's not Reese's Pieces. It's definitely not Reese's. It's not Reese's Peanut Butter Cups

because it's not Reese's Pieces. I was called out by my boyfriend this weekend for that very infraction. I say Reese's Pieces. Is that a Bostonian thing? Absolutely not. I will not drag my fellow Boston citizens down with me. Oh my gosh.

But once he said it, I was like, you're a thousand percent right. Right. It's like, once you think about that, you're like, yeah, you're right. There is a right way to do it. Yeah, there's a zero percent. I am obsessed with your cat shirt.

Thank you. Is it true vintage? Oh man, it's so cool. When you say true vintage, what do you mean? I mean like, you know, vintage is 20 years old. Is there like a definition? Yeah. Like 20 years.

20 years. 20 years is the crossover for vintage. I did not know that. And this shirt seems vintage. This is vintage vintage. This was a gift, actually. That looks really great. This is my favorite shirt.

It was a gift from George Lopez. I got to direct an episode of Lopez versus Lopez. And to thank me and to thank me and to tell me that I did a good job. He presented me with three of the coolest vintage t-shirts

I've ever seen because I'm a vintage t-shirt person. I wear them every day. So he saw me wearing them to set every day and then that was his gift which was so thoughtful.

There was a Prince, a Prince vintage t-shirt, this Whitney Houston vintage t-shirt and then a TLC vintage. Wow. So cool. Don't go chasing, and then a TLC vintage. Wow. Don't go chasing waterfalls. That's exactly right.

Yeah. And that's the gifting love language in action because it's like a thoughtful gift. Yeah. He was like, noticed, paid attention, talked to me about my shirts every day.

Was like, what's this one? And it went and procured three. Yeah. And I don't, I'm going to go out on a limb and say, George himself did not. Nevertheless.

Go out. I think he has a, he's got a fantastic, like a wardrobe girl, I'm going to go out on a limb and say George himself did not. Nevertheless. Go out. Might have had a good assistant. He's got a fantastic like a wardrobe girl, like a. Still cool. Those are great shirts. Aren't they great? What a great place to start. Should we just start there?

Yeah. Great. Well, I don't want to kill the conversation. This is great. Usually we start the episodes with asking our guests how their hearts are. So Danielle, welcome. Thank you so much. How is your heart?

Oh, good question. You know, right now my heart is very good. If you had asked me that a couple of weeks ago, you may not have gotten the same answer. What was going on a couple weeks ago? Just, you know, a lot of life is busy. Like my husband and I were talking about this yesterday, that like all of the things that we know we're supposed to do to like take care of ourselves. And then also all of the things we have to do for our jobs and just life. How does anyone really do it? How do you do it? Where is there enough time in the day to like make sure you're drinking your

water, make sure you're going to the gym, make sure you're eating healthy. Make sure you're taking care of your family. Make sure you're keeping up with your businesses, which for a lot of us involve like posting on social media. So then you have to have like a healthy relationship with social media, but also not be too attached to it. And then with like drinking water is the hard one that you asked for this. Guaranteed, I will not take a sip of it the entire time. Daniel, please. Why is drinking water so exhausting? I know, we're going to monitor. Just do it right now.

It's also just so boring. Yeah, and the health benefits, the hydration are astronomical. I'm so parched all the time. There's a hundred percent chance that all the time I am parched. Like half the time, not TMI, but if I go to the bathroom and it's like

peeing and it's just like I'm always looking like that's not good. That's so dark. That's way. That's not doing my job. Yellow Gatorade? Yeah. Can't be good. No, no, I know. And it's it's so good for you.

It's good for your skin. And I just. OK, no, it is hard. I think about that a lot too. As who's someone, I'm someone who's has the gift of at times being a hypochondriac. That's a gift. I'm just looking for gifts. Or a burden. It comes and goes.

I'm a professional worrier. I'm good at worrying about things. And yet to your point, it's just like in theory, taking care of yourself sounds simple. Right. Drinking water. Oh, there's all these vitamins available. You could do your research. Yeah. And yet I often just miss the mark on doing it only to the point where then if like something hurts or if I'm not feeling good, then and then I'll like emotionally beat myself up for not doing what I have decided are supposedly the simple things and be like, why didn't I just take care of stretching? Oh, my God. I know. I know. Such a simple thing. But yet everything does take time. And I think that's really what we're struggling with is like, is there enough time in the day? Like, I tell you for sure one self care thing I refuse to sacrifice on is sleep. And the reason I refuse to sacrifice on my sleep is because I would make everyone else around me miserable all the time if I were overtired,

just tired, like I need to sleep. So I have to sacrifice kind of a lot in order to do that. I don't watch a ton of TV because one of the I put my kids to bed and I immediately it's like, OK, time to clean up the house a little bit. So I wake up to a clean house and then my kids are going to be unhappy because I'm going to be snapping at them. So I don't have much of like a social life, but I also know that that is temporary while my kids are still this small. Gotcha. Were you a far more social in life before you had children? Yes, I've always been an introvert. I was actually what that's not true. When I was younger, I was much more extroverted. I loved crowds and parties and I didn't feel like I needed to just like go sit in a hole once I was done being at a party. But now I have to like really psych myself up to go out somewhere. And then when I come home, I'm like, all right, I really need to decompress from that. But kids definitely made me more. more, moms are overstimulated all the time. I actually think the mom anger is actually just, we're just overstimulated all the time. We've had people touching us all day, people needing us all day. The amount of times you hear mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, sometimes that quickly in that many times in a row. And every time you go, yes, baby. Yes. Yes, honey. Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? And meanwhile, inside you have a raging flame burning because if someone says, mom, one more time, I'm going to snap. Does anyone get the brunt of that?

Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, my husband does for sure. How do you guys manage that? We have to talk it out a lot. And also, I think it's really important to just like. Accept seasons of life, like while our kids are small, we're both on the same page that this season of life is really about them and not so much about us, not so much about us as individuals and not even so much about us as a couple. Us as a couple has taken a backseat big time. And the good thing is we're both on the same page with it. So it's not like one of us is feeling resentful about it and the other person's like desperately trying to just like keep a fiery hot flame alive. And no one's like, what the fuck happened?

Exactly. We get it. But we have also started talking about the fact that like our youngest is almost two. And so now there's like a little bit more independence that comes with that because I'm not worried about him potentially killing himself all the time. From the time they start walking to the time they're like two, you're just like, no matter where I have to have my eyes on you and possibly my hands on you at all times, because there's always something they could be getting into that. That's just like, you're not supposed to be standing on that. You're not supposed to pull on that. You're not supposed to put your finger in that. And no matter how

baby proofed your house is, they will find a way to injure themselves. So we're starting to get to a place now where I could see like, I'm starting to feel a little more like getting myself back. I'm getting some like, getting my groove back. Here you go. What do you and your husband do to like you know when you can try to stay connected we get a lot of people who ask questions about whether they have kids or not long-term relationships you know you know things complacency sets in guys it's kind of comfortable or maybe there are kids involved do you guys have any like hacks uh in terms of like what makes you two feel like you know what we yeah there, there's that moment.

We, you know, we're connecting here. Is it over the kids or is there something that you guys are able to carve out between the two of you that makes you still feel like you still got that bond? I think one of the great things that we do is we like day dates. Because again, I don't like to sacrifice sleep. And so for both of us,

even if it sounds really good, like, oh, we should go to dinner and then go do something. By the time that night arrives that we have those plans, we're like yawning, exhausted. And then I'm like, quick, let's eat this dinner and get home and immediately run to bed because I'm so tired. So we like day dates. Like the mall is our happy place. If you ever want to run into me, I'm at the Topanga Mall. Okay. All right. Good to know. I'm probably near the food court. The mall's going to be hit or miss. The Topanga Mall in Woodland Hills has a great food court. They just opened Topanga Social, which has the big movie theater and all these great eateries. It's like another food court, movie theater and all these great eateries. It's like another food court, but elevated.

And so we like to do that. A lunchtime or an afternoon, we're really very fortunate that we have a nanny who works with us full time during the week so that we can work and do other things. And I like to, while the kids are both napping, both my kids still take a nap, which is the greatest thing ever. And they sleep at the same time. So a lot of times our dates are like the kids are napping. Want to go to the mall? Want to go just do something fun and quick together? And that's how we connect. Also, we connect over the kids. Every night the kids go to bed and we get into bed. And then we're like, what's that? What was the high point of the day with the kids? And what was the low point of the day with the kids? Do you see yourself and does your husband see himself in the kids? Do you guys ever playfully have a competition about trade-off? You see a good quality in your kids and they get that from me. And if that whole classic, they do something that irritates you and you blame, you guys blame the other person. Do you guys do a lot of that?

It's funny. We actually do the reverse. I'll see him do something that I'm like, oh, he gets that from me. And it's not so great. Like my oldest is a perfectionist and it bums me out because I am a perfectionist and it has not,

there are a lot of ways being a perfectionist helps you in life. But also it doesn't make you the most fun individual. And it also can stop you from trying things because you're afraid to not do it. Like he won't say when he was he was speech delayed and we had him in speech therapy and he wouldn't try to say a word until he knew he was going to be able to say it perfectly. And I'd see it. I'd see the wheels turning and the speech therapist would be like trying to get him to say a word, you know, say whatever it is, reverse, reverse or whatever the word is. And he would just he would stop himself. And then at night, I'd hear him on the little monitor

practicing for himself how to say it out loud oh that's so sweet that is so touching and i was like did you record that i did i got i got a few of them on my phone recording on the monitor and i would think like no he got that because he sees how hard I am on myself about things. And so that's been a really like beautiful lesson that kids that kids will if you care, which you will. Your kids will make you better people because you'll see the way your negative attributes are affecting them. And you're going to be like, oh, I'm not going to

be hard on myself about that thing anymore because I don't want them to be that way. And so I've even I've even thought about it in the way like, you know, I talk about foods or, you know, what I look like in an outfit or I am now hyper aware that my kids are sponges and they are picking up all of those things. And for better or worse, whatever they see me doing, they're going to think that's the way to be. And so I need to be the best possible version of myself because I don't want to model anything. Yeah, I've actually I have I know I have loved ones who have talked about the same thing with their kids around eating habits. And, you know, eating disorders are a real thing out there. They're a real struggle and yeah i mean just

with the kind of inclusion of all these different types of not even diets but like we're so much more informed about food nowadays you know when we should eat how we should eat it the combinations and in a lot of cases you know just as useful information for all of us but like when we talk about that in front of younger people and our kids and the certain language we use, like, oh, don't eat that, that's terrible for you or something. Right. You know, and maybe that's just like, maybe you're using the word terrible to just, I don't know. Right. You're being hyperbolic or whatever. Exactly. They don't have those. They don't have those layers. Yeah. And I think young

children can really develop an unhealthy relationship with certain foods based off of witnessing adults or their parents as having what they perceive are innocent conversations about food. And that's, it was a very eyeopening conversation I've had with people I know who are, who are dealing with stuff like that. Yeah, it's, it is. It's because I think if you really look at while, while eating disorders may be affect a relatively small number of people or percentage of people disordered eating, if you just look at it like disordered relationships with food affect, I'm going to go out on a limb and say a majority of people, our relationship to food and the way, you know, I was raised in the 90s where it was like as long as it was fat free,

that's all you needed to worry about. So eat as much sugar as you want. Eat a whole box of hot tamales, have frozen yogurt for lunch, you know, whatever. As long as it's fat free, you're going to be fine. Turns out we were wrong. We're totally wrong. And sugar is actually, you know, not great for you. And so it's like I know that there's still a part of me that that has unhealthy relationships with food. And and so, yeah, I mean, kids, kids are great mirrors.

I found it so eye opening. One time someone was talking about disordered eating. So there's like it does sometimes feel like that's the base standard. And like what is like we are made and like socialized to internalize it like our own relationship with food. And someone was talking about food and they were like comparing it to like when you have to go to the bathroom, like your bladder, how you wouldn't like for your bladder be like do you really have to go right like you just went to the bathroom 20 minutes ago right like your friend

over there hasn't been to the bathroom once this like you know and talking about how this like the we've been so stripped of our intuition and we interrogate it and it makes it there's so many barriers to just like having a kind of open dialogue with your body and about what you want with food because there's like all of these other messages that come first. You're absolutely right. I did yesterday have a moment where, again, talking about not drinking enough water, I did have a moment last night where like I had made the kids dinner. The kids had a perfectly healthy dinner. They had a little bit of fruit. They had some vegetables and they had protein. They didn't have a carb, but they did. But they had they had those other things. And

I was like, they're they're happy. They're fine. And then I was like, I'm kind of hungry. And I had I don't remember what I had. I had like two Belvita crackers or something. And that wasn't going to be what my dinner was. But it was like I was eating while I was doing a bunch of other things. And then I was like, still hungry is like, OK, well, now what am I going to eat?

And I started looking. And then I also thought to myself, when was the last time you had a single sip of water, Danielle? Was it this morning? Because also I do try to remind myself that sometimes hunger is like hunger presents itself, but it's actually dehydration. And if you are trying to have drink enough water, maybe some of those cravings for especially for sugary or carby things will go away. True facts. Yeah. Yeah. So then I was like, I'm just I'm going to drink some water. And then maybe this chicken that I've prepared will actually sound appetizing and it did and i was

perfectly satiated and that was it great water man water god's gift back to the parenting i'm fascinated by more how do you deal with um like your how old are kids now almost four and almost two almost four and almost two are they going on almost two. Are they going on playdates yet? Yes. What's that like? Do you have to, like, do you screen other parents? I remember as a kid, my parents were, I think, pretty strict. I mean, great parents, but they were on top of things.

And they were just very careful. I could tell as a young kid, just, I was often confused by like why, you know, they would be guarded with one kid versus another and turns out, you know, it was more parents and things like that. Or what environment would they be sending me off to if I went on to a play date at someone else's house? How do you and your husband deal with that? Or have you had conversations around, you know, who your kids hang out with and things like that and like how do you find the balance between being hands-on parents and just kind of letting your kids you know make mistakes live life scrape their knee whatever you know what i'm saying because

there is a little bit of like i think nowadays we've become again so aware of all the dangers out there that we've almost you you know, the helicopter parent type of terminology. How do you find that balance between letting your children just live life and become people and, you know, bumps and bruises, both literally maybe and metaphorically and, or just, you know, interact with other kids and then maybe use that as a teachable moment, but like, you're not going to be able to avoid, you know, them hearing a bad word or something like that. And then there's the Internet that scares the hell out of me when it comes to the kids. Like, how do you deal with all that, you know, in terms of making sure that your kids

learn from you and not necessarily the world? Very good question. Well, four and two, we're still accompanying them to their playdates. We're not sending Adler off to be like alone at a friend's house. We probably would with certain parents and friends that we know really well. We haven't been in that situation yet. But I'm very big on encouraging the intuition of kids. Kids intuition is so high. We tend to like, as we get older, we lose it because we start questioning it and we doubt it. And we, you know, we want to do our intuition tells us one thing, but we really want to do it. So we ignore it. And then like you

ignore it so many times you start to not know what your intuition even feels like. So with my kids, I really encourage them to like pay attention to how friends make them feel because sometimes you can really like a kid, but they don't always make you feel very good and you're not sure why. That's a great lesson. And so we talk about that a lot with our kids. Like, who's your best friend? Who do you like spending time with?

Why do you like spending time with that person? There is a kid that my son loves. I won't say his name, but there's a kid that my son loves. And a couple of times he said, Adler has said to me, this kid stole this thing for me, stole this toy for me, or this kid pushed me or this kid, you know, whatever, still loves him, hasn't changed his opinion on the kid. But this happened. And I said, well, why do you think he makes you feel like that?

Why do you why do you why do you think that happened? Why? And just paying attention to those things and being like, oh, OK, it's it's fine that you love this friend, but also worth paying attention to that this person sometimes make you makes you not feel very good about yourself. Yeah. I love that. That's great.

Now, adults we find that we talk to every day often don't think about why they like someone or why they invest in someone or how someone makes them feel. They care way more about what that person thinks of them. Yes. Like when you go on a date with somebody. Correct. You're like, do they like me? Yeah.

Did they think I was fun? Did they think I was cute? Did I book the audition? Yeah, exactly. How did I do? And like, as opposed, yeah, like and how does that make them feel? And be able to articulate those feelings because like yeah, other than the, you know, someone can make you feel cool. Yeah. By association there's that, you know,

but they also might make you feel a bunch of other maybe negative feelings that maybe you go, what? Do like this person or why? And that's great. Having your kids tune into that feeling at an early age, that's genius. you know, deep down. So just pay attention to those things and let's focus on them. Because I do very much like you said, I think it's very important for kids to be able to make their own mistakes. And then we just talk a lot about those mistakes. It's hard as a parent because you want to step in. You're like, I see where this is going. I know exactly where this is going, but I'm going to let you do it anyway. Do you see a lot of other parents out there that make you cringe or they do things? And how do you manage that when you see maybe a different parenting style? We actually saw,

I wanted to show you a TikTok of Kat Stickler. She's an influencer. Oh, I know all about this. You know about this? Is this the cake debate? Yes. Yes. This is wild. I heard about it. Oh, I'd love to know your You know about this? Is this the cake debate? Yes. Yes. This is wild. I heard about it. Oh, I'd love to know your thoughts on the cake debate. Tell me. Well, for reference, let's... Okay, let's play it.

Let's play it. Only people I've ever mom shamed are myself and my own mother. But one other mom is going to be added to the list because what the... Actually, this is a question. Am I entitled or was this messed up? Two hours ago, literally right now, MK and I were at the park in my neighborhood and it was us and this birthday group, right? So literally just us and this birthday group.

These kids are having their birthday party. MK's playing with them for like, what, half an hour? They're making friends. It was nice. It was actually very cute. Time to sing happy birthday. MK goes over. She's one of the group right now, all right?

They're welcoming her with open arms. Or so I thought. I was wrong. Time to eat cake i see mk i see her intention of grabbing a piece of cake so i like walk over to make sure it's okay as a formality honestly i was like obviously it's okay it's cake it's a massive cake there's lots of leftover pieces the mother ticks the plate away from mk and gets down to her level says you cannot eat this cake okay this is not your birthday party.

These are not your friends. Where's your mother? That's wild. All right, well, you want my thoughts first? Yes, please. Well, it seems ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous. Yeah, I just feel like, I mean, I don't know.

I don't know if it was more traumatic for a cat or her child. I'm curious how her child's reaction was. I mean, making friends is so hard in general. Also, the fact that they were hanging out for 30 minutes. She didn't just walk up to the picnic table and take one. 30 minutes for a kid? You are bonded. Oh, yeah.

30 minutes at a playground? It's my best friend. You know the pet's names. You know the sibling's names. We're not friends. We're life partners. Yeah, literally. You know? Yeah, I just think it's a where do you think that comes from? I mean, yeah, I think that's it's obviously absurd, right? It's it's any adult who has a child who then goes out of their way to make a child feel bad to take a plate of cake out of a kid's hands and say, these are not your friends. That's what gets me.

And I was talking to Amanda about this because, again, I know it's, oh, it's a big cake. There's a lot of pieces, whatever. Who knows? Maybe in her mind, she's thinking there's only enough for a certain amount of people. Maybe they'll circle back with the cake. It's the saying, these are not your friends. That is the worst part. There's no way anything to do with the amount of cake. No, because, by the way, cut the pieces of cake in half that they're already in. Yeah. Also, aren't there adults

who are probably eating cake? An adult would I would give up any piece of cake to give a child a piece. No one's gotten just enough a cake. Yeah. For a party. You know, no one's like that last sliver. No one's ever doing that. No, this was obviously the mom had been annoyed by this child's presence. The whole time. The whole time. Yeah.

Didn't necessarily know how to say anything about it. Didn't know how to do anything about it. Probably thought to herself multiple times. Where is this kid's mother? Why is this kid's mother not stopping them? So she had a vendetta about the mother and she just passive aggressively took it out through the kid. But why is that even an issue? And it's one thing to be like, hey, can we ask your mom first?

Like that is totally something I could see myself doing just to make sure this kid doesn't have any allergies or something like that. Like there's definitely ways of like kind of. We had that happen recently at the park. Adler and Adler went and got snacks because, you know, I've never never don't have snacks on me. That's one way of making kids happy all the time. Just make sure you've got something for them to eat.

Adler ran over to my purse, grabbed snacks out, came over and started and was like, can I have this? And I said, yes. And we opened it and he was playing with a new little friend at the park. And the friend was like, oh, what are those? And I said, we have extras. I said, but we need to ask your mom first if it's okay for you to have that. And then sure enough, I'm glad we asked because the mom said, no, we can't eat them. The snacks were not kosher and they only eat kosher food. And so I'm glad we checked. But that was literally just a I need to make sure for health purposes you can eat this thing. And, you know, I was a perfect parent before I had children.

Those are the those are the people who make me cringe. Like you asked, do I ever cringe at other parents? No, because let me tell you something. Unless you are a truly like abandoning your child awful parent, we are all doing our best. And it is freaking hard. It is hard. It's hard to keep your cool all the time. It's hard when your kid's throwing a

tantrum in Target and you're desperately trying to get out of there or your kid throws a fit when you walk into a restaurant and you think, man, I really wanted to eat out tonight, but my kid's crying and all these other people are around. Like my husband thinks I take it too far. If my kid starts crying in a public place, that's it. We're out of there. I don't care if we're like pay the check, get box the food. One time Adler started crying before our food had even come out. And I was like, we're leaving. I'll see you in the car. And he's like, our food hasn't come out yet.

I was like, have him bring it out to us in boxes, pay that check and I'll see you in the car. I'm not ruining anybody else's meal. And he's like, you're taking it too far. But yeah, so no, I we are all doing our best. But that mom had it out for her. Yeah, because I feel like from the way that mom was talking, the only way I can imagine someone saying that. And it's hard to because it's a crazy thing to say to a kid.

But like, I wonder if this mom thinks she's really teaching a lesson. Like in her mind, it was almost like, oh, this child has like broken a toy of my kids or somehow like taken something that they had no right to take. I'm sure she convinced herself of that. But I agree with Danielle that it had more to do with. This is probably a parent that like laminated the schedule for the birthday party. Had it all planned out. There's a lot of great party planners out there. And party planners are very specific.

Yep. You know, and when they have things a certain way you know it also could have been about attention we don't know how much mk was maybe like a new friend to all these kids and maybe the mom was feeling like this kid the birthday kid was taking all this attention away all all of my kids friends are all about this kid at the park. So it also could have been that like I'm just trying to think of any even if it was though. It's not the kid's fault. Yeah, I'm just trying to think of because again, if I go off the off the idea that we are all trying our best. The mom of that birthday kid was also trying their best.

So what was it that so got under her skin that that made her have a bad moment in public? Well, even though someone tries their best, they. They still could be misguided. Oh, yeah. Intentions. You know, they could be making a moment about them when it's not about. There's no way about it. It was a misguided approach. I'm just trying to think of I don't ever like being like, well, it must have been because she's freaking crazy. It's like there's gotta be something like humanize this because it's so easy to just like be like horrible

person and now we all get to feel good because we're not this horrible person. I would never. And it's much harder to be like this is a human being like what false pretenses is this human being like operating under. You hear there's two sides to every story and we'll probably never get a chance to talk to this person

because Kat did the right thing by not outing who they were. Correct. But I would love to hear. I know, me too. I would love to have them on this couch and be like, you know what? No judgment. We're here to just hear. Listen, if you're the mom of the birthday kid, email us. Just like, what's your story?

They had a reason. Totally. We can. Yeah. Like, just like, what's your story? Yeah. You know, like, they had a reason. Totally. It may, we can all agree, didn't handle it well. They might even say, you know what, in hindsight, I should never have said these aren't your friends. I should never have ripped the cake out of their hands. But this is what I was thinking. I still want, I would love to know.

There must have been a buildup. Yeah. I feel like there's a chance to, I mean, again, we don't know. And we were talking about playdates of how you like accompany your kids to playdates. But like, let's say we don't know and we were talking about play dates of how you like accompany your kids to play dates but like let's say we don't know if there were other parents there like maybe this one mom was in charge of all the kids right and maybe in her mind she had like reached

a threshold of like eight kids and then with MK joining she felt like great I've become a free babysitter for a ninth or something even though Kat was there yeah just to play devil's advocate and maybe she was just kind of like at her limit but like these are not your friends no I don't agree with that

like I said that is the something that should have never been said say here's some cake play with the kids let's look for your you know like where yeah it's so I know I mean these are not your friends because also at schools like at preschool everyone's called a friend watch out you have

a friend behind you watch out there are friends there and like we we call strangers at the park who are kids playing at the park watch out there's a friend going down the slide behind you so kids actually if anything like we said within 30 minutes these are best friends like these are your friends what else is a friend if it's not somebody you're meeting and playing with for an extended period of time? If you were in the situation saying like this was maybe the mom felt like the attention, like she really wanted her kid to have this birthday party and feel like they were with all their friends. And then there was a new person who took all the attention. Like, how might you have handled that as a mom? Because I'm thinking about that.

And I know I wouldn't have done what that other mom did but i also don't know what i you know do we know how old this birthday party was because the answer that could matter depending on the answer your question you're right i have heard through my therapist oh that what was your therapist name mean darlene okay hi darlene umene. Shout out. That every year has different kind of stages of development. Year four, very important. You know how the world talks about narcissism a lot these days. Is that when it develops in four? Year four apparently is the most important. Adler's there. We have a birthday in less than two weeks. So my understanding, and again, I could be way off here. I'm not citing

a book, but yeah, there should be no like individual, like individualism before year four, you know, in terms of your kid shouldn't be the center of attention, you know, individual prizes and accolades and things like that. You, you want to wait until like five or six and things like that, you want to wait until like five or six and things like that because too much individual attention and making their world about them can create narcissistic tendencies. And that's where it really starts at age four is the most kind of pivotal year in that development. Oh, great. MK is three. So I don't know what the birthday party was for, but assuming within a couple years.

Yeah, maybe. So just in theory, if it was like a four-year-old, five-year-old birthday party, like, I mean, it's sharing, you know, bringing each other people up, teamwork and things like that. Being that it's just at the park, what if it was like an eight-year-old's birthday party and mk a three-year-old is running around making this party you know a three-year-old at a party totally changes the dynamic like i love obviously i love my two-year-old but like my two-year-old even playing with adler and his friends adler can can get frustrated. He's like, you know, like Adler has a friend over and they build a super tall Lego tower. What does Keaton know how to do? Walk over and immediately knock it down. That's all Keaton knows how to do. Well, that's super

annoying. And, you know, I have to I have to step in and be like, Keaton, Adler and Damien are making a tower. You can't just knock it down. And Keaton's now bummed because he's like, that was the fun part to me. So, you know, I'm with you. You need to get to the bottom of it. I'm going to ask you. If this is like an eight or a nine year old, like especially like a girl's birthday party, you know,

they're all trying to play like big sister and they're like pushing her on the swings. So then that could contribute to the attention. The attention thing. Of not being on the birthday girl. Yeah. We have so many follow up questions. So many questions.

I'm tasking you with getting to the bottom, finding the other side. Listen, with TikTok, you can find anybody. It's terrifying. Well, if you're listening out there. Please. Let us know. We want to hear your side of the story.

You could be anonymous, fake name, real age. I was going to say our 600th episode is just this mom. But can I come back for it? I want to be here. Okay, great. Thanks. Inviting myself. Our big show.

We might require her to be anonymous just because I imagine some of the criticism could be harsh. I don't know. How do you deal with being a father? If I want to be a father. I thought you were asking me and I was like, no, I'm not a father, but I'm saying I I want to be a father. And so, you know, you fantasize about being a parent, you know, things that you like, things you want to teach your kids, yada, yada. You see so many parents out there living through their kids, kind of maybe pushing things that they didn't quite get to accomplish. But at the same time, it's just like, you know, every parent kind of brains and wash

their kid a little bit. Yeah. What's the point of not having a kid? You know, but so how do you find that balance between, you know, pushing kind of brains and wash their kid a little bit yeah what's the point you know but so how do you find that balance between you know pushing them and maybe you know direction that you find interest in versus setting them free and and like are you guys are you more like give them direction or let them figure it out and then give them direction how do you how do you two handle stuff like that and do you see I'm assuming you see a lot of other parents out there where you kind of go, oh, boy, you know, someone didn't have fun, you know, and they're just thrusting it on their kids. I think it's important to figure out what your family values are. We are I didn't get to play

sports as a kid because I was a child actor. And so acting and being on set took up all of my time. So I didn't have I couldn't like make it to practices or whatever. But my dad is a very athletic. And so in my off time, like in the time was when I weren't wasn't on set. My dad would like I was rollerblading and playing tennis and being active. And my brother then also, even though he he isn't like athletics are not necessarily his thing. We are in an athletic family. And so one of our family values was like, you're going to do something extracurricularly that keeps you physically active. And I have a girlfriend

who's like, we're a sports family. And so you got to pick something, pick whatever it is. You want to try something new. Great. You want to run. You want to run track for this little semester? Let's try it. You want to swim? Let's try it. And then you're just but you're going to do it. You're going to do something and then you'll find something that you like. But we're a sports family and that's what we do. And so I think that's OK. I don't think that feels like too domineering. And then, by the way, if your kid ends up not liking any of it, OK, that's fine. But there are so many things. There's dance. There's swimming.

There's running. There's, you know, all the normal sports that you play in school, like football and baseball and whatever. I think my number one goal with like presenting the world to my children is just showing them how many options there are. Like my mom growing up loved makeup as a kid. The only time she ever really got in trouble was for stealing makeup. And she used to put makeup on her dolls. And she got in trouble also because she had put makeup on her dolls and and lied about it, whatever.

My mom, if you had told my mom when she was a kid, you know, you could be a makeup artist. That's all she would have wanted to do. But her parents, who were immigrants from Malta, were very much like, no, you're going to work gonna work and you're gonna you're gonna I worked in a bank You're gonna work in a bank. And so that's what my mom did She graduated from high school and she started working in a bank She worked in a bank until she had kids and then became a stay-at-home mom my mom then at 56 years old Went to makeup school and is now a professional makeup artist and does bridal makeup That's incredible

But she's like I could have done like if someone had even told me that was an option for me, I could have been doing this for my whole life. I could have think of all the things I could have done. And so I just want my kids to know that like anything you like or love, you could make a career out of. You just have to find the thing that you like or that you love. And the only way to do it is to try things. have to find the thing that you like or that you love. And the only way to do it is to try things. So we're very big into taking a class, doing a thing, learning about whatever the options are, even if I know absolutely nothing about it, I'll learn. Yeah. I also think it's our responsibility as parents to be into the things our kids are into rather than the other way around. So I'm

just trying to figure out like we had Adler in soccer and he liked it the first couple of times he went. And then he was like, I don't want to do this anymore. And we were like, really? And we thought, you know, you can't just the first time they say that, be like, all right, that's it. You're done. Because who doesn't sometimes wake up from a nap and think, I don't want to go to soccer today. Like that can happen. But he said a couple times in a row, I don't want to do this anymore. We said, OK, are you sure? Because we don't ever have to go. And he's never once been like, what about soccer?

I missed it. He was serious. Like he's done. And now he's in something else that he loves and he can go to it four days a week. And he every day wants to. He very, so I'm like, that's really a thing that speaks to you

versus soccer was just clearly not. Parenting's hard. It's so hard. It is so hard. So you have 100% chance of fucking up your kid at some point, right? It's just how you're going to do it. It's just which way So you have 100 percent chance of fucking up your kid at some point. It's just how you're going to do it. Which way you're going to do it. Right. And hopefully you have learned from the ways you feel like you were parented, both the positive and the negative.

Yeah. You say in this way, I think my parents did me a disservice. And it's not because they're bad people. It's not because of any of it. But in this way, I'm limited because of blah, blah and blah. And so I'm not going to do those things. But you'll screw them up in your own way. We just have mental health being what it is and therapy and access to all that. We're so much more well-informed. You think 20, 30 years ago, we're the same age when our parents were parenting and they were having kids in their early 20s. And I'm thinking, I would have fucked up a kid so bad. I know. And I would have shouted him so much love. And I think about that too.

Had I become a father at 20 or in my mid-20s, and I'm sure I would have busted my ass and been well-attentioned, but just my emotional awareness and my maturity or lack thereof in my 20s or just all the things I had to figure out about myself. And it's crazy to think that so many of our parents were trying to figure that out all while raising us. And it's not necessarily to criticize them almost anything to have grace and empathy because like parents are, I think generations now are becoming more informed about like parenting and things like that and learning about like, oh, maybe we shouldn't have done it this way. And then like realizing maybe their parents did and almost like taking it out or having resentment towards their

parents even though they're just i didn't no one knew any better and shit like that so there is a balance between learning and then maybe still having grace to your point like it's so hard and eventually we're all gonna like you're all you're all going to fuck up your kid a little bit. You know, the truth is the majority of us are all OK. It all works out. Sure. Someone can be really diehard about this particular way of parenting and this particular way of doing this. But like at the end of the day, it's not going to make that big of a difference between this other way. You're you just have to find the thing that works for you and say, these are the values that I think are the most important and I'm going to stick with them. I was very big on schedules for my kids. I still maintain that scheduling

and living to the schedule is the best way to go, but it isn't always possible. Sometimes when you have a second kid and you don't have the ability of working from home or you don't have help, well, guess what? When your first kid is out of school and it's right at nap time for your second, well, guess who doesn't get their nap? Because unless I'm going to leave my kid home alone, which is not good parenting, that kid has to go with me in the car to go pick up that kid. Well, now that kid slept in the car. Well, it's only 30 minutes. Then they wake up. They didn't necessarily get their nap. Like it's not always possible. So you also have to recognize like how much privilege is afforded to certain parenting

techniques that like not everybody gets that opportunity. And I think the stories we tell ourselves about our lives and the ways we were, quote unquote, screwed up or not screwed up. It's like so much of it is just a reframing. Like, was I really screwed up by that? Or could I actually just look at it and say, yeah, so I needed to overcome something I'm dealing with, you know, some I can talk with Darlene about in therapy. This should happen. Or even if you're not lucky enough to have a Darlene, something I can talk to my best friend

about and and choose to see in another light, choose to see in a different way, something I could talk to my partner about, feel differently about. Do you think as you know that your kids are getting older, do you think your kids, you think you'll let them watch Boy Meets World when they're the appropriate age? Yeah, absolutely. My my oldest once. So, you know, we do a Boy Meets World rewatch podcast. And so on Disney Plus, Boy Meets World was the most recently watched thing one day when I turned on the TV for Adler. And he was like, Mommy, let's watch that. Had no idea. No idea. Love that. Mommy, let's watch that. And I thought, OK. So I went to the first episode I was ever on, which was like season one, episode four. And I turned I like skipped to the scene that I'm in and we watched it and he's staring at it. And I'm like looking at him, waiting for him to have the moment of, hey, mommy, that's you. And he goes, mommy, this is boring. Let's watch something else.

And I went, cool. All right. Moving on. And then he goes and cries in the bathroom. I was like, obviously not the right age yet. We'll try next year. We'll try another time. It's got to be so cool, though, still, to be able to share that with your kids.

Yes, I'm assuming it will be when he doesn't say, Mom, this is boring. I am looking forward to it. Yeah, I was older when I watched. Yeah, I think you need to be. I mean, we were 12 when we started. You need to be in school. Because like the whole uh mr there's dr feeney mr feeney mr feeney yeah you know that relationship with the teacher in school and you

know that was so much of that show was about you know going to school well yes going to school and also just friendships and dealing with your like you know i have not watched the show since it was on in the 90s i watched it when it was on And then I have not really watched it again since we started this until we started the Boy Meets World Rewatch podcast. And I think the thing were even about because I was so consumed with like what was going on in my real life to not really be paying attention to the content of the TV show. Now, when I watch it and I'm like, the content of this TV show is great. It's really wholesome. It's so great. And so I really like I'm looking forward to showing it to my kids and having those discussions with them about, you know, what it means to be a kid and your friends and the relationships that you have and how you deal with your parents and your siblings and your elders at school.

And yeah. Do you think you'll have do you do you have any opinion about steering your kids away for away from or towards any type of role in in the public eye or whether they want to be a entertainer of any kind whether it's as children like like you were or maybe something they would save to adulthood you know like it certainly has effect on your psyche you know like you mentioned you're more introverted now yeah i consider myself more introvert now. And I literally was thinking about this the other week where it's just like I identify more as an introvert.

But I like I remember I thought I literally thought about being a kid and just how I'm just kind of a low key guy. I don't get very excited. I downplay things. But I remember as a kid, I was more expressive when I got gifts or things like that. And I just think about how I've changed or just being thrusted into the public eye through reality TV. I've gotten more guarded. I've gotten more paranoid. I've gotten more just on edge. And I think as a result, I've become even more anxious or more introverted. and just how you've described going out, getting the energy to do X, Y, or Z, that has affected me. How will you handle that with your kids when they get to

the appropriate age? Well, like I mentioned, wanting to show them all the things that are out there as possibilities. My oldest is very performative. He loves to make believe play. is very performative. He loves to make believe play. I mean, it starts the moment I walk into his room in the morning. It's like he hides. I walk in. I'm like, oh, Adler's not even in here. And then he goes on. He rips off his blanket and Hulk is there. And I go, oh, my gosh, Hulk, what did you do with Adler? I mean, literally, I've just walked into his bedroom and we are thrown into immediate make believe play where he's Hulk. And I can't deny that those qualities that he had were very much the same qualities I had, where give up being able to stay in school and play athletics or do sports or whatever you want to do at school because now you have auditions. You can't imagine what that is. One thing I know for me for sure is that my parents said the entire time I was in acting and I was in entertainment, they used to say, if I complained, like we were going on an audition, I would be like, oh, I don't want to do this.

And my mom would say to me, do you think I want to be sitting in this traffic in this car right now stuck for all this time? I do not. I'm doing this because you asked to do it. If you say the word, I don't want to do this anymore. You will be out of it so fast your head will spin. That was such a mom thing to say back then, something or your head will spin. I love it. I want to turn this around right now. I'm going to turn this car around so fast your head will spin. And so I knew that like my parents were doing this for me, not I was not doing it

for them. And the opportunity, if my kids ever say they want to do it, I would be open to it, but it would not be my preference for them. And I'm not really I'm not really sure why, because overall, I had a great experience with it. But I think, you know, what so much of it is, is the social media aspect of it. Now, I how lucky are we that we got to be total idiots and not have it on the internet i mean by the way i've also been an idiot on the internet but yeah in the 90s and in the early aughts i could be a total normal 18 19 20 21 22 year old idiot buffoon and it doesn't live forever on the internet yeah everyone truthfully needs those years of buffoonery. And if you're already kids now are having to live with it on the Internet, whether you're in entertainment or not. But now add on top of it being a famous kid. No one wants to give you any room to be a buffoon.

No, it's so true. It's a I am social media where that's the thing that worries me most about being a potential parent. It's just like how helpless you might feel with, I don't know, the internet, the TikTok or whatever, the Instagram, like parenting your kids. Yes. You know, just the access your kids have. And even if you like don't give them a phone before other parents, it's like how do you stop them from going to school? It's all around them and things like that. And there's just so much information out there. And it's that that part is terrifying. It's like, how can we still be the parents we want to be to our kids and not have them be inundated with all the crap that's out there. And then to your point, just, yeah, it's the ability to be a buffoon or make mistakes. Make mistakes without the fear of, you know, a lifetime of shame or judgment or defining them as a person or their character. Because, you know, as a teenager, they, you know, made a mistake.

or their character because as a teenager, they made a mistake. And a mistake allows you to have a teachable moment. Talking about your kid being that kind of a perfectionist. Mistakes are so important. Failure is such a big part of our life. And it's scary to think that we're going down a path where we're not allowing those types of mistakes or failures to happen so that you can say, hey, this is a consequence of your decision. Here's what you can learn from it. Here's how to not do it again. But life will go on. You don't have to become this neurotic, fearful person who's like, oh my God, I made a mistake. I can never make it again because my life will be over. Yes. You are more than the sum of your worst moments.

Yeah. Yeah. We have a very, I think, perfectionistic approach to accountability. It sometimes feels like, and I do think accountability is so essential and important. And like, it's hard because it's sometimes it's hard to even talk about this kind of thing because like the people who criticize the way we're holding people accountable are the ones who are like, no accountability. I want to do whatever the hell I want. Right. But it is like when you do kind of like look in the nuance of like there is an in-between of like both yes these things deserve to be like called out and addressed and as a society so that way we can progress but then also sometimes the way we go

about it it just feels like very intense shaming where there's no yeah kind of path to recovery or a path to learning or to growth and it just feels like we have this very like one strike you're out you're done and you're done forever in an irredeemable way because you're kind of or a path to learning or to growth. And it just feels like we have this very like one strike, you're out, you're done, and you're done forever in an irredeemable way. Because you're kind of referring obviously to cancel culture in that conversation. And then like the conversation usually happens, especially, you know, cancel culture started

with people in the public eye, celebrities, right? And people probably being called out for bad behaviors and bad actors and things like that. And then the critique is, oh yeah, these people never really get held accountable because you give it a couple of years, they show back up on some sort of special or whatever. But to your point, I think that mentality has trickled down to just society. It has. Right. That mindset of, well, yeah, we're not canceling you. We're holding you accountable. And what does accountability look like? Well, you get fired,

you know, from your job or, you know, X, Y, or Z, or you get you don't get admitted to the school you wanted to get to go or you're no longer allowed to hang out with, you know, X, Y, or Z. And yeah, it's like, sure. third or fourth or five chances for something they didn't deserve a second chance for. But that mentality of accountability, I do think it's trickling down into our society and affecting people who don't have the means or the privilege or the access to pick themselves back up and get those second, third or fourth chances. And I do think that's going to really affect, especially young kids and their ability to be willing to make mistakes, try things out and just fuck up a little bit. Well, yeah, I mean, that is the thing. It's like your prefrontal cortex isn't even fully formed until you're 25 years old. And so if you're talking about an 18

year old, 19 year old, 20 year old, all the way up through like 25, it feels like there should be an age where like we go, OK, you know what? The consequences of this, the losing of your job, maybe depending on how old you are and how big the, you know, the indiscretion was, depending on what it was. Yeah, you should have known better. This was a really bad thing. There needs to be some accountability. You're going to lose your job. And then maybe we go, hey, but you know what? You're 21. And this was a really good teachable moment for you. And if I stop you now from going to the school that you wanted to go to or I stop you from doing this other thing, I'm only going to prohibit the learning experience and the growth

that you could potentially have from this mistake. I don't know. It is. It's such a it's a difficult conversation to have because there's so much nuance. And so much nuance. The Internet doesn't exactly hate it. Absolutely hates nuance. They're like, no, no, no, no.

I don't even know the word. No, I've never heard of it. Yeah. Also, having children. Sorry to keep bringing it back to kids, but nothing in your life is as game changing as children are. Having children made me the most open, raw nerve of empathy. I didn't even know. I've always considered myself to be an empathetic person. I didn't know it was possible to be this empathetic. But kids will make kids will like that experience that going back to the cake, that feeling she has about her kid

and like, oh, my gosh, my kid was so hurt. And then to know every single one of us have parents who felt that way about us. Every single kid you see, every single person you see has someone in their life who loves them and cares about them that way. And if that doesn't make you want to see everyone be treated fairly and well and to feel loved and valued, then nothing will. Like once you realize everyone's the same, everyone feels the same way about their kids. You start to feel that way about everyone else's kids. There are no everyone else's kids. They're all my kids. Everyone's my child. It reminds me of like a sign I saw one time when I was driving. It was like, drive like your kids live here. Yeah.

And it like really like I was like, oh, great. Because we do. We need that reminder all the time of like, if this was your stuff, you'd really care about it. And so once you just start to think of everything and everyone as being like a true collective, like if we really cared about each other, like we were a family and the people who don't deserve to be a part of your family, you're allowed to shun them if you need to. If they've really proven to you that they do not belong in your family, you can you can extract yourself from them. But otherwise, just look out for each other. Just truly look out for each other the way you would as if you were family. And you'll just it makes it so much easier, honestly, than it is to be like just so discerning about every person and like I need to make a judgment about you.

Are you acceptable in my opinion? It's like you just are. You are because you are human. And I that means you are enough. I feel like no place is there maybe the more opposite opinion than in dating these days. Like I think there's such an individualistic, like every person for themselves mentality. Yeah. And like, I'm curious for you when you think about the things that have been essential in your relationship compared to the kinds of practices that exist in like online dating,

kind of like that whole area, like what are some of the discrepancies you notice or things that feel kind of counterproductive about the way we date nowadays? Well, when we talked earlier about how people are so concerned with what other people think of them, especially in dating, I tell I have a few younger friends who are still dating and I tell them all the time that one of the things I wish I realized sooner in dating was that like all dating is, is trying to find compatibilities. And if you're not compatible, there is doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that person. It also doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. You don't need to change yourself to try to make yourself more compatible with that person.

And that person doesn't need to try to change themselves to make yourself more compatible with you. You should just say we don't have enough compatibilities and that's OK. And I wish you all the best. But this is not going to be going the direction that we need to do. But like I spent so much time and energy in relationships, I was kind of a serial monogamist. I would go from like a two year relationship to a three year relationship to a year and a half relationship. And then and my mom would say to me, danielle if you're always in a relationship with the wrong person when are you ever free to meet the right person and at the time i couldn't get it i was like what but this person could be the right person if they would just change enough and or if maybe i would just be a little different maybe this person could be the right person but

like the majority of people are not going to be the right people. And that's OK. There's nothing wrong with them. They're just not your person. People lose sight of that all the time. So date, go out, have a meal, get a coffee, go for a walk, see a movie, do it two or three times and then go. That was really nice. But this there isn't enough here. There isn't the spark. There isn't the this. And so we're just're just gonna part ways i don't then have to hate you or say bad things about you or any of that i'm just going to part ways with you yeah yeah no i had a person write in uh and i get this question a lot and they talked about i'm always rejected after like four or five dates, you know, and like that was the only information I had. And all I really said to him is like, are you not rejecting any of these people? Right.

Because if you're going on, let's say 10 dates, you shouldn't like eight or seven or eight of them. You know, honestly, like I would say one out out of ten if you go on 10 dates one out of 10 i think would be a realistic number of of not not someone you're going to fall in love with but someone you're like potential vibe with you know you see some compatibility differentiating between compatibility and chemistry because chemistry is sexy we all love the chemistry it's like oh god that's on the bottom i can't explain it it's like and then compatibility is just like boring and it's just like it doesn't really like humble uh it's like yeah i know we

like the same things but like whatever like he's six two um you know stuff like that but yeah like you should if you find yourself always getting rejected like you need to up your standards you need to you stop stop liking all these people. They're not meant for you. Like otherwise, you could date anyone and you shouldn't be able to date anyone. And we pick kind of the same people in different clothing because of either it's what's comfortable to us. It's what we know. And we think it's what we like until like for me, before I met my husband, I realized I could always point the finger at why a relationship didn't work out. And it was always on them. Well, you know, they didn't really have any of their own thoughts or they didn't have any of their own opinions. And they also didn't really know what they wanted to do. I could always say that. And then I'd be like, oh, but wait a minute. If they all had that in common, how did that serve me? And then I realized, oh, it served me because I like to be in control. And so I actually was

seeking out people who didn't have strong senses of self because it worked really well for me to be like, great, you'll just take on mine. Because then if you like to do all the same things I like to do and your schedule is really flexible and I could just pick up your life and drop your life into mine, that works really well for me until that chemistry is that that's kind of worn off. And then I go, who even are you? Like, who are you? Really?

Haven't you just become me? It's like, oh, but that's not your fault. I picked you for that. It's like their compliance you saw as compatibility. Correct. Until you realize they were just complying rather than enjoying the same things that you wanted to enjoy with them. Correct. So then it became, so now I need to pick somebody who actually at the beginning parts of a relationship, I'm maybe not, I'm finding kind of annoying.

Yeah. So now I need to look for, I need to actively go out and look for something that I think I don't want. I think I don't want. And so it was like, my husband had a, has a very distinctive voice and is a very like totally, totally different person from me. And at first I was like, oh, oh gosh, I don't think that's going to work. And then I was like, no, you, it's, it's good. It's actually good. So like until you realize what's wrong with your picker, like maybe it's your picker that requires a lot of work. We often have bad pickers. Yeah.

For sure. You mentioned before we started that you were going to school to be a therapist. Yes. I went to school to study psychology and got my bachelor's degree in psychology. And then I applied for my master's degree to Chapman University, which I love. And I got accepted. And then I ended up not going because that's when Girl Meets World came about. I got the opportunity to do Girl Meets

World and I couldn't go to school at night in Orange County and work in L.A. during the day. And so I thought, well, I could always do that in the future. And that is still the next question. Your mom went back to be a makeup artist. Do you do you think it's in your cards to eventually do that? I'm someone who is going to go back to school to become a therapist. It's like the next chapter of my life. I'm hoping to do it this year. A lot's going on in my life. We'll see. Wedding, talking about being a dad. Busy, busy. So much. But yeah, is that something you think down the road? You're not sure when, but... Yes. That is something I could see myself doing as my second chapter of life.

Right now, my kids are really I have a lot of jobs. You know, I have I have a hair care company. I host a podcast. I'm a full time director. Then I have two children. And so my kids, it's a lot. It's a lot to do to add in school. And then if I wanted to turn the master's degree of school into a profession of being a therapist, you have to get like 3000 hours or something, which is another full full time job.

I could see myself doing that similar to my mom, taking a page from my mom's book. And when my kids are grown and I'm in my, you know, 50s or 60s being like, I'm going to focus on me. I've also recently started thinking about getting my pilot's license. Oh, nothing to do with anything. What got you into that? Well, if so, my family lives in Orange County and I live in the San Fernando Valley and it's very hard. The weekends, the traffic is so bad. It's a two hour drive.

And with two kids, it's hard to make two hour drives. I'm like, what if I got my pilot's license? That'd be kind of cool. And I a helicopter my pilot's license? That'd be kind of cool. And a helicopter's pilot's license. And I left from Van Nuys Airport and I flew a helicopter to John Wayne Airport and then just had my parents pick us up. That's a whole new definition of car pulling. Yeah. That's what I was thinking. I'm like, or I could move to Orange County. Those are my options. That's amazing. So I started looking into getting my helicopter's license. Well, we know you're not a therapist yet.

No. But we do have, is it Sweating the Wedding or Texting Office Hours? Sweating the Wedding. We have a caller calling in with some relationship questions about, I think, their family. Yes. An upcoming wedding. We'll get to put our not expert therapist caps on for a moment. And so are you ready to do that?

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Stream now. How's it going? Hi, my name is June. I'm 35 and I have a question. Hopefully you can help me with my sister is engaged for the third time in four years. Okay. And I'm assuming you have your concerns. Oh yeah.

Okay. The whole family. The whole family does. All right. Well, I guess where should we start? I mean, let's talk about the latest engagement. Yeah. So this latest one comes, they've been together, I want to say a year. She moved

across the country and this is coming off the wings of a divorce, which has only been a couple of months as well. So to take it back a little bit, she was engaged originally and then they broke up a few months later due to her infidelity. She ended up marrying the person she cheated on her fiance with after two months, which we didn't know about until later on. And then they broke up within six months. She started dating the person she just recently got engaged to maybe a week or two after they broke up and they weren't even divorced yet. So there's a lot of overlapping. And from what I was told as well,

from reliable sources, she also cheated on that person as well. This current one she cheated on? No, the one she was married to. Her ex-husband. She cheated with the person she's currently this guy how old is your sister uh she turned 30 uh last year okay so she's not young um but she's always kind of been a wild part of the family we're big there's six of us um

she's uh one of the younger ones i'm in the middle So I always kind of get stuck in these ordeals of what do we do? And, you know, my whole family is a little reluctant at the moment. We don't really know what to think. I told her congratulations, but to be honest, I, I don't know how much to invest. I don't know. We should say something, you know, I, I feel bad at they're making bets about how long this one's going to last. And I want to be supportive. But with her history, it's just, I just, I don't know what to do if

I should leave it alone completely. Or if you know, someone should say something, which it will be me. I mean, you're the one who kind of always has that relationship with her. I'm the nick of the family. I'm brutally honest. If you want the truth, they come to me. So they're selective when they come to me if they want to hear the truth. But I'll be completely honest. Do you know why she's so obsessed with marriage? What's wrong with just being in a relationship? Why does she feel like every relationship needs to have the end goal of marriage? I don't know. So the three oldest siblings, we've been married and with our partners, we have kids for decades, most of us. And the three younger ones, not so much. None of them are married. They're in long-term relationships. But I don't know, she's, she's had this pattern. And again, being the one who tends to speak up, I told her after she told me she was getting divorced, that maybe she should

take some time to herself. You know, she clearly doesn't really know what she wants, but she didn't do that. And two weeks later, moved across the country and was in a relationship and moved in with someone else like immediately after. And it was kind of shocking, to be honest. And now I was engaged and I feel bad because when she told the family, no one really said anything for a while. We didn't know how to react because here we are again. And you want to be supportive, but it's like, what are we doing here? Has she made comments or feel like she doesn't have the support of the family? Or does she understand why they have their reluctance?

Like how self-aware is she? I think she's self-aware, but she chooses to be ignorant sometimes. Like I said, when she wants an honest answer, she'll come to me as other people. If they don't, then, you know, they can live in their fantasy. That's fine. But I won't. And, you know, I've been really honest with her before in a very supportive way. I think she self-sabotages sometimes as like a form of control. That's the only real thing I can make of it. I think she's aware she's joked about it before, you know, that's the only real thing I can make of it.

I think she's aware she's joked about it before. You know, she's made jokes like, oh, you know, I married someone after two months. Like, how dumb can you be? But then she'll continue her actions don't match up her words. So I think there's some, you know, something missing there. She's smart enough to know. What about the cheating? something missing there because she's smart enough to know. What about the cheating? Have you had a conversations with her around that?

Because that, that in itself is a very obviously a destructive pattern and short of her lacking empathy, you would think that she is old enough to recognize that regardless of what she thinks of, of these relationships that she's been in or the men that she's in relationships with, that she's behaving in or the men that she's in relationships with that she's behaving in a way that is hurtful to people she i mean at some point claims to

to care about i'm really curious about these new partners that she brings into her life are they aware of these behaviors you know does she just have a bad picker and and just kind of hanging out with people who lack the same kind of moral compass that she seems to lack right now? Like where are we in those conversations? I think she justifies her cheating. I've never brought it up to her specifically, but I found out from our brother and I obviously trust him. And she brought new partners around before when she was still engaged as like, I'm on a date with this person, almost in like a flashy showy way.

I don't think they know about it. I know her marriage ended because I talked to them. They wanted to clear things with me, although I'm not going to pick a side. I'm not a ride or die sort of, you can do no wrong person. If you do wrong, then I'm going to let you know, so we can try to correct it, you know. But they told me that she had cheated that time. So I'm taking their word for it. But I've also seen it in action. She wasn't even divorced yet. And she's setting up dates with someone she said she had hooked up with before. and I'm thinking we've been engaged or married for the last four years like when did when did

your time yeah so uh yeah I I don't know I'm I don't watch Vanderpump but I listen to you guys so I feel like I have and it feels very standable where it's like he doesn't she doesn't know you know what I mean she justifies it as like I want to get out of this relationship. So I'm going to cheat on them to get out of it. person. She wanted that attention. She didn't care whether it's negative or positive. She wanted she wants people talking about her, which to me feels like a cry for help. Yeah, I would definitely involve yourself. I just don't know to what extent at this point. Well, I guess what do you have to lose? You know, I want to be supportive. I still want to be a supportive sister. And I think we all do. But it's just one of those things where it's like history seems to be repeating itself over and over and over again. And if this one doesn't work out, like. destiny or fake eye or whatever, you know, everything happens for a reason. Generally,

I think is something we say to ourselves to make us feel good about, you know, things that happen, whether it's our choices or a result of being impacted by someone else's. But our choices matter as adults. They matter and they can affect our lives and the people around us. And your sister is a 30-year-old woman who is making choices that, again, are impacting not only other people's lives, but hers. And she's at that age where she's making some very big choices in her life that can have a lasting impact. I think we kind of, I think as young adults or even kids, we, again, we just assume that everything is going to work out, you know, or everything happens for a reason. Yeah, we'll make a mistake, but you know, whatevs, YOLO. But we get to a point in our lives that sometimes we will make choices where they have long-term ramifications that, you know, we can knock someone up and all of a sudden that person's in our life, whether we want them to be or not

for literally the next 18 years or forever, depending on that relationship status. I guess this is all to say that like, you might reach a point where as the big sister who's used to, you know, giving the tough love, you know, and hopefully you can have some allies with having the large family to say like, not to be hyperbolic or i'm trying to find another word i use that word too much but like your sister's life's on the line in a sense you know it's not like a life or death situation but like these choices she's making now are potentially deeply impactful and she's being incredibly self-destructive and thankfully nothing up into this point has happened that you know is super irreversible but shoot man like yeah she could get pregnant with someone she barely knows who

you know comes to find out he she cheated on them and then it becomes a super toxic relationship and all of a sudden lawyers are needed right now so at the risk of your sister getting pissed off at you and being the bad guy you're kind of at a point where like not to sound too but like you kind of someone needs to save her life so to speak yeah you know and really questions i'd want to ask her it's just like are are like are you happy why are you making you know like slow down for a little bit like try to have a conversation where it's just like i just want what's best for you obviously but like maybe try to walk her through these choices because, you know, you ask someone about infidelity and cheating and the moment they start justifying it, it's like timeout. Wait, what do you mean? Right. What do you mean? But, you know, this or but that, like there's always an option to not cheat on someone, you know, and we have this this tendency of putting the relationships on trial when when there's infidelity as if it's the relationship's fault. But we can always end the relationship. So you're in a tough spot.

But what what good is it doing anyone at this point worrying about not pissing off your sister, not making your sister frustrated at you is not creating someone who's making good choices for themselves. You also can approach it from the place of I want to be supportive for you and I am concerned about you. So the way I am going to show up supportive for you is to make you start thinking of these things that maybe you haven't been thinking about. What are the things you've been looking for? Do you think you found them in these people? What do you think made the other relationships not work? Why do you think this one is different? And that's like kind of the more macro level. And then the immediate issue is, and let's talk about maybe having a long engagement. I'm so happy for you that you

think you found somebody that could be a forever relationship for you. There's no need to rush into it. You know, like if you think about the fact that when you are grieving something, the whole first year is tough because it's filled with firsts. The first anniversary passes the first Mother's Day, the first Christmas, like in a year, a year is the bare minimum amount of time it would take to see everybody in at least every situation over just one year, every holiday, every whatever. You don't have to rush into a marriage. You can just press the pause button on it. Don't take don't be like you shouldn't be engaged to this person.

Let's talk about lengthening that so that you can really get to know this person before you make a decision. lengthening that so that you can really get to know this person before you make a decision. And then while you're in the pause, let's also start asking some deeper questions about where this behavior is coming from. I'm assuming she's not seeing a therapist of any kind. I don't believe so. No. And I mean, I always tell her like tough love is still love. What's your relationship with therapy? What's mine? I've been to therapy several times. I've liked it. You know, when I feel I need, I need it. I'll seek it out. It's not something I've done consistently, but I've bopped in and out depending on what's been going on in my life. I think too, the other thing that kind of layers onto it is my family's also very reluctant to get to know these people.

So because we've been in and out, you know, she's been in and out of relationships like to someone you're engaged with like that, you should know that person. Your family should be a part of that. And I think that's, what's making this third time really difficult is, you know, we've had people we've really loved and we got to know, and we want it to be a part of our family. You know, one of them, she married, it was, you know what I mean? I had someone, a part of my family. So I, I feel bad because if this is a forever thing, we've, we haven't shunned the person out, but we're all so reluctant to start building a relationship with them. So I worry, too, how that's going to end up is if we're all kind of walking on eggshells around around, you know, her new fiance, is that going to cause some friction in the family if this is a forever thing finally? But that exactly what you said feels like such a beautiful thing to say to her. I want to get to know this new person. But I've also now started to put up guards because your last relationship I thought was forever. And

I welcomed them into my home and I love them like they were a member of my family. And it's been hard for me to grieve their loss. And now there's someone new and I want to be my arms open wide and welcoming them in. But I've started putting up boundaries and I don't want that to hurt you. I don't want that to affect you. But I feel like if your sister is a reasonable person, she would be able to understand that. And she could say, I could see how that would be difficult for all of you.

And so hopefully that would help everyone. Just take some time. The challenge I think for you is getting your sister to see that she's the problem. Right, not them. And not them. I mean, I'm sure for you is getting your sister to see that she's the problem. Right. Not them. And not them. I mean, I'm sure they all have their own issues.

And the reason I asked that question about your relationship with therapy is because, you know, in these cases, like you mentioned, you come from a large family. She's in the middle. You know, I have a lot of siblings as well. And she's younger. Yeah. It gets competitive and, you know, comparing. And, you know, you mentioned that the older siblings are in what seemingly healthy relationship with kids and maybe you guys have something she wants. And so someone, whether it's you or someone else, kind of humanizing yourselves. the relationship you guys all have in terms of like how raw you guys get with like your,

you know, your lives behind closed doors, so to speak. But just say, you know, hey, I was, if someone could sit your sister down and say, let me tell you a story about me. I was really struggling with X, Y, or Z. I was in a really dark place dealing with this. I needed to go and work on myself. I was making some of these choices and I'm not trying to compare myself to you, but I do see some patterns and I had to do this to on myself. I was making some of these choices and I'm not trying to compare myself to you, but I do see some patterns and I had to do this to get it out because I had to realize until I made some choices of my own, the same issues were going to keep happening. And so, you know, you have so many great qualities. I, you know, there's a reason why all these guys are drawn to you and whatever you want

to do to gas her up and make her feel good about herself. But to Danielle's point, I'm just concerned that, you know, no matter how much potential these relationships have and no matter how much chemistry you have with these guys, because she'll want to say at some point, well, you don't know them yet. You haven't given them a chance and you're always doubting me. She'll say shit like that. Right. shit like that. Right. And so it's trying to get her to say, hey, listen, I want nothing would make me happier than for Chuck to be your forever person. But what's changed with you? Nothing's changed. And I'm just concerned you are putting the cart before the horse and, you know, trying to get married rather than trying to get to know these people. Right. You know, and trying to build a connection with these guys.

There's nothing wrong with dating and it not working out. But why are you making the same choices? The choices, quite frankly, in the past that haven't worked out. And what's going to change? Because it's not necessarily them. No one can be so perfect that, you know, obstacles aren't going to come up. And right now, every time an obstacle comes up, you have this pattern. And I'm just really concerned about your pattern, not theirs, because it doesn't really matter who she's dating. You know, she's the constant in the equation.

And her standards may not be as high for her as they should, considering, like we talked about, if you go on 10 dates, maybe there's one or two in there that you go with high standards, maybe one or two of these people meets my standards. And yet she has gone from engagement to engagement to engagement. It's like, wow, you must be the luckiest person in the world to run into three back to back people who are truly up to quality standards. And so maybe that's part of the gassing her up a little bit is talking about all of the amazing things she brings to a relationship. And then not the cheating part. Yeah, that's I don't I don't know. I don't think I'm going to bring that up with her. The only reason I'm privy to it is exactly because I was told I don't know. I don't think I'm going to bring that up with her. The only reason I'm privy to it is because I was told.

I don't think she knows that I know about that part. Right. And I don't think she needs to know that I know about that part necessarily, but it is in the back of my mind. Just to play the advocate, why? Why don't I want her to know that I know? Yeah. When I alluded to it in the past in a very, very vague way, she didn't talk to me for six months. That's why it's such a struggle now because

she is very, very defensive, like to the extreme defensive. And to me, it's, it shows a lot of guilt when you're that defensive about anything. So the way, and I think that's why, you know, my, a lot of my family and all our siblings and even our parents, they're going to continue to just be like, congratulations, we're so excited for you, blah, blah, blah, you know, but I'm just not going to be fake. Like, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to pretend that I'm super excited about something that's happened this many times and this little time for her safety and the other person. So that's what makes it so delicate is my initial thought was to just start off with congratulations.

What is the timeline you guys are thinking about? Because I'm worried they'll elope tomorrow or they're already married because we had that happen out of nowhere. Oh, we married after two months. Kind of mention it or at least with your facial expressions, but it sounds like you have some real fears and reluctance around support from the other parts of your family. Yeah, I think everybody likes to keep it. I mean, you know, when you're in a big family, how many people are like you? How many people are blunt and honest? I mean, I think you have almost double what I have, but still a lot of kids. And I think I would be the only one to be completely

honest and blunt to the point where when she announced the engagement, we were texting back and forth with some of my siblings and they were like, yeah, just ride it out. Don't worry. Right. They don't want to ruffle any feathers. Yeah. They're like, it'll stop. It's fine. It'll go away just like the others. I don't want to do this again. I don't want to keep doing it. I don't want to have three more engagements in three more years. It's not okay. I don't know if it'll be three more engagements. I'm more worried about something more permanent happening or something that she can't just get over, walk away from. You're in a tough position and I really empathize with you

because of the way the rest of your family is seeing this. You know, it's something I've learned in therapy in terms of like, you know, we all experience various forms of trauma throughout our lives, some more severe than others. But nevertheless, we all kind of carry trauma into our adult lives from our childhood. And it sure sounds like whatever your sister is dealing with is stemming from maybe something that happened from her childhood. It's like when you're like, oh, no one wants to ruffling feathers or we don't want to upset her. It's quite almost literally like the equivalent of, you know, seeing a kid pick up a scissors or like a candy bar or something that wouldn't just be healthy for them to eat or something. And just saying, well, I don't want to take it away from the kid because they're going to scream and cry and throw a fit. We'll just let them have it. And that's kind of what you're all doing with your sister at this point. And just like a child, because your sister quite literally is making decisions in like a childlike state,

you know, especially if this is a result of any type of trauma is that when she is in this kind of fight or flight mode, whatever is triggering her to leave a relationship, whether it's through infidelity or something else, and to immediately search out, I mean, like all these guys that she's dates, what's a common denominator? Do they all just like worship the ground that she walks on early on? Like, I'm curious, like what is, there must be a consistent pattern with all these guys, at least early on. But I'm just wondering what has caused, you know, her to go out there and then seeking a certain type of relationship that's intense, that's quick, fast moving, that kind of like dismisses, you know, logical, like next steps and just starts playing house with whoever. And we do that at 21. It's

pretty common to be 18, 19, fall in love and just get ahead of ourselves. But the fact that your sister is a 30-year-old woman, she's had relationships in the past and she's not yet learned from it. And yet she's doubling down and tripling down. Clearly, she's making these decisions in some sort of fight or flight state of mind. And she's just not seeing it. So for your family just to ride it out, it's almost the equivalent of letting a kid just pick up the scissors or whatever and hope they don't hurt themselves because you don't want to upset the kid. And that's where this not talking to you for six months is this her just throwing a temper tantrum? Yeah. But I also I agree with you about not bringing up the

infidelity stuff until unless she talks to you about it, because I personally feel like no matter how much I trust the person, you heard it from your brother who you trust. You are taking his word for it. But no matter how much you trust him, if I am your sister and you come to me and you say, listen, I know that you cheated on somebody. If I'm your sister, my first thought is, how dare you not even think my what I have to say about whether or not that is even true matters to you. You just take somebody else's opinion or thought about and what they said and run with it. So I feel like the infidelity is something that if she talks to you about it, then you can get into it. But really, the the engagement needs to be the topic of discussion.

And I really do think, like Nick said, it feels like an attention grab. It feels like a cry for help. It feels like someone who's saying, look at me, look at me, look what I'm doing. Maybe because they're used to everyone going, turn a blind eye, turn a blind eye, let her fail. And she, you know, the infidelity is what you said made her not talk to you for six months. So not bringing that up again, skipping over that topic and just saying, I'm, you know, really happy for you. I'm looking forward to getting to know this person. What kind of a timeline are you thinking? And letting that ease into, you know, I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but I would just like to say that I think, you know, taking your time with this is is what's

best for you and what's best for us. And you can then share your part of it, which is I want to love this person. I want to get to know this person. If they're important to you, they're important to me. But I have some guards up because I also got to know the last one and the one before. And if you make it about you and how you would like to welcome this person and maybe that's a that's a way in at least to forming a safe space for her to open up. Well, as far as her current situation. To your point, I think the immediate problem is she's engaged to someone yet again with someone she barely knows. And we just don't want her to make that same mistake, whether it's getting married do you have to lose and make her answer the question like what do you have to lose by waiting you know and not rushing into getting married and just see what she has to say i'm curious because at least now she has she has something to compare it to

this divorce can't be easy i don't even the easy divorces are a challenge to cost somebody, lawyers, et cetera, et cetera. So like she can, you know, cause you can say, well, you know, if you, if you get it wrong, we are, you already have learned what that looks like, you know, it's messy. So what, what do you have to lose by waiting? Cause clearly I don't think she's really thinking about it that way. She's for some reason thinking about the sooner I can lock it down, the sooner I'll protect myself. But she already knows that's not the case. So it's much harder to tell someone something and have them receive it the way you want. It's easier if you ask the right questions and get them to answer your questions to get them to kind of have an epiphany. And then they're

hearing it through their words rather than yours, rather than you saying, well, it's not going to work out. And then all they're trying to do is prove you wrong. It's just like, all right, let's just work it out together. What are the pros and cons to a quick engagement versus a super long run? And get her to answer those questions. And then if she's just, well, and if she's dismissive to the question, just why are you so quick to dismiss the question?

Does not not tell you something. And then maybe get to that point where it's like, I'm just asking these questions because again, I just don't want you to repeat the same mistakes because while these guys might be wonderful, like you're, you, you're in all these relationships. So there is a, there is some consistency here. I'm assuming you want to break this pattern, right? Just ask her that question. Right? Like, no, breakups are hard. They're so hard. I don't want you to go through this. You know, you kind of empathize with her.

And maybe you start there. How's that sound? And it's tough. It's a tough situation because like, she's not here and we're throwing a bunch of ideas at you. And at the end of the day, it sounds like someone who really needs to maybe look in the mirror and realize that, you know, maybe some therapy and maybe some, you know, vulnerability. And because she it sounds like she's going 100 miles per hour just trying to run away from her problems. And no matter how fast she goes, her her her problems are just as fast as she is. And it doesn't sound like she has kids with any of her exes. And but if she wants to have children in the future, divorces are a lot more difficult when children are involved. Yeah. And decisions are a lot more difficult when children are involved.

And so if she does have a desire to have a family, you could also say, you know, thankfully, you were able to get out of your last marriage pretty scot free because it was just the two of you. And yet, even like Nick said, even the easiest of divorces is still not so great. But imagine the next time if you have a child. I don't want that weighing on you. I don't want that. I don't want that. You know, you want to make that choice when it's really quality person. So it sounds like I should say something. I shouldn't just stay out of it because initially I didn't say anything for about a week. And then I just felt really shitty about kind of just overlooking it. So I just said, congratulations. And that was it. Nothing else,

but I would like to reach out. And again, she moved further away. So I don't have much visibility into this relationship anymore. I've met them several times. So she's very quick to introduce people to the family. how great they are. They could be saints, you know, to your point, they might not even know what they're getting themselves into. It could be the greatest guys in the world, but she's the problem. It's not even about love for her. She's, she's just, she's trying to fill some hole. I don't know what it is or I don't know where it's coming from, but she's trying to fill it through these relationships and these people. And then when that relationship doesn't serve her, that's why she's probably stepping out of these relationships because it's just all about filling the hole for her. Yeah. And that's why she probably feels justified with her actions because it's just like,

she, it's just probably this fight or flight. It's not about, she doesn't care about other people or lacks the ability to empathize. She is, I'm guessing is just almost- In survival mode. Yeah. And so she's not even get to a place of trying to empathize with someone because it's just more i can't take it she probably feels abandoned by the people that she's in the relationships with when all of a sudden she starts getting comfortable acting like herself and they're

accusing her of changing and i don't recognize these people and you know i'm sure in her head at all kind of makes sense but but she must at some point feel like she's going a million miles per hour and on some sort of destructive path. So lead with love, make her feel really good about herself. Like, I think you're capable of so much. I've seen you be such a great partner. I just, I want this to work out. And no matter how great he might be, I have learned, you could say, I've

learned in relationships, if I wasn't my best self, my relationship could never be its best self either. And so you've gone through a lot. You've dealt with so much. How are you doing? How are you coping with this? Push her to give some vulnerability as opposed to, I don't know, it's great. It's great. It's great. And just see, but just, I would just stay close with her and try to lead with love, but just try to peel back some layers or poke some holes and just emphasize, if nothing else right now, we just want to extend the engagement, you know?

And maybe in the meantime, she'll be willing to get some therapy or things like that. But I wouldn't ignore it. This whole idea, like, let's just let it run its course. But at some point running its course is going to lead to some permanent mistake. I just want her to feel supported and I can't imagine how she feels. And, you know, I just want her to be happy. Yeah.

Yeah. We all want her to be happy. That's going to take some self reflection. And I think right now she's you know, she's chasing dopamine hits, the new love, the attention that a new relationship brings you also the dopamine hit of I'm engaged. Like Nick said, there's a hole she's really trying to fill and she's going to need to figure out for herself what that hole is and where it's coming from. And right now you're just trying to break open that scratch, just scratch the surface to get her to start thinking about it. And you are so obviously coming from a place of love for her. And I think you'll be really good at you're so well spoken, you'll be able to get that across that this is coming from a deep sense of love and commitment to her well-being. I just wish she could see herself the way we see her yeah um and i don't think she does and having her do these things and no one wants you know their sibling to be quote the

bad guy and i just don't want her to feel alone or you know yeah well you know just again like just try to lead with love and keep calm you know make her she clearly it has some self-confidence issues you know and and maybe that self-sabotage where maybe she doesn't feel enough you know she gets to a point where okay it feels maybe these guys really are too good to be true in her mind and then she gets to a point where i don't deserve it and so she acts out i mean who knows there's a million different things but yeah i think just she has to reach to a point where it's she's a feels okay to just be vulnerable and and put it out whatever is hurting her inside so feel safe enough to get it out without shame because i

think you know when we are afraid of shame we hold hold those things in and then we bottle them up because we don't want anyone to know them up because we don't want anyone to know about them because we're worried about what people will think about us and our world will crumble down. So the more you create an environment of like, it's okay to make mistakes and I've made mistakes too. And there's, you know, I really think the more stories you can maybe bond with her about things that you overcome or, and really be vulnerable with her. Because like, you know, I think in larger families, we are afraid to do that. Right. And sometimes everyone just paints the picture of happiness and everything's fine. And so it's like, well,

they're happy. I should be happy too. Like if I've, am I the only one who's fucked up? You know, am I the only one who worries about this shit? But the more people are just like, oh no, like me too, or me this, and I've done this. done this and it's like oh so maybe start with that conversation and and maybe encourage some of your other siblings to like demonstrate to your sister that you've all kind of been through it you've had some dark days you've all had moments of like feeling like your world was coming to an end and and what did you guys do to get over it i think those those all might be things that that could help you know maybe there's another sibling you have you could sit down with and and just say i don't think we can just let this play out you know like we have a responsibility yeah and we we owe it to her and you know there might be some resistance

but like how can we make her feel safe to to open up about some of the things that are bothering her? Yeah, I think I can definitely do that. I know my brother specifically was interested to hear the advice just because we just don't know what to do or how to approach the situation. But I definitely like all the insight is exactly. I think I knew it, but wasn't exactly sure. it's good to have that confirmation that at least i'm on the right path and i definitely shouldn't just let it slide i i need to hear that it's very easy to just throw it to the side and and brush it off which you know i wouldn't want someone to do that to me so and i'm not going to do that to a family member maybe maybe in the meantime between now and whenever you decide to talk with her or sit down with her, you and your brother, maybe just like making a concerted effort to just reach out to her every day, check in, ask how she's doing.

You know, just... Inside jokes you have. Yeah. And just, you know, how are you doing? And just see how you're doing. Like, are you happy? You know, just be close to her and maybe say, Hey, I was just thinking about you. I'm really proud of you for what, you know, think of something

to say that you're proud of her for something, because in that way, you're kind of not positioning yourself as the bad guy, but you know, I think she's clearly someone who wants to feel valued and is having a hard time finding her own internal value. And so, you know, the more you can do that before you, you hit her with the, you know, almost intervention like conversation, it might, might help out too. All right. Well, good luck. Sorry, you're going through this and yes, please keep us posted. Will do. All right. All right. Take care. Danielle, that was, well, that was fun, but it was heavy. It was heavy. I know. I feel i feel for her you could you could tell how

much she wants to do the right thing and also is worried about being ostracized from her sister's life and yeah being the right being the friend or the family member when you see someone struggling is so hard yeah it is a challenge it's also hard to be the one who's like i have to hold you accountable because the other family members are so quick to just be like, just let it go. It's harder to be involved and to tell the truth all the time and to make people ask themselves tough questions. It's hard to be the person who does that all the time. I know.

And then, you know, mom and dad are always just afraid sometimes because they just don't want their kids to be mad at them. And I think as parents get older, you lose the bond a little bit. I don't want them close. That's a challenge. Yeah. This has been so much fun. So great talking to you. So great talking with you. We could do this forever. I know. I'm like, I don't want you to leave. Well, I'll come back anytime. I want to talk more about your wedding planning too. Oh my God. We didn't even get into that. Do you have any tips or tricks for me? Man. Well, how far along in the process are you? So early. planning oh my god we didn't even get into that do you have any tips or tricks for me um man well

how far along in the process are you so early okay great yeah i would really pick a venue we have that okay does it is it does it hold a lot of people do you want a big wedding no okay so that's the thing i'm one of 11 she's one of seven right okay so even if you've just family you're looking at a large wedding even if it's just family it's're looking at a large wedding. Even if it's just family, it's like 60. Right. Right. So I'm guessing it'll be definitely south of 150, between one and 150. Okay. That's great. That's perfect. I've been married twice. The first time I was married, I had a huge wedding. It was like over 200 people and the wedding ended and I had maybe had 10 minutes of fun that wasn't just saying hi to my wedding guests.

And the wedding ended and I looked around and I was like, wait, really? I just finished saying hi to all the guests. I didn't get to enjoy the wedding at all. And then my marriage now was around 100 people and I got to enjoy so much of the night. So my advice would be. You have to walk around and say hello to all your guests. It's just a part of it. So keep it to a manageable number because you don all your guests. It's just a part of it. I know.

So keep it to a manageable number because you don't want it to go by in a blur. My big rule, tell me what you think about this, is I want anyone who's at our wedding to be someone that our relationship knows. Yes. You know? Great. I don't want to throw a party for people. Right. You know, and certainly strangers.

And if you don't know us, then you might not be there. Perfect. And that's okay with me. Great. Great. I did have a friend who actually went to your last wedding. Oh, really? Yeah.

And she said she had a really great time. Who is it? Paige Peterson. Oh, yes. Paige. She's pregnant. She is. I know.

It's crazy. Living in France. I know. Just crushing life. So funny. Final know. It's crazy. Living in France. I know. Just crushing life. So funny. Final thoughts. Where can people find you? All the great things you're doing.

I know you have your podcast. You're directing movies. Can you just plug away? Yeah, sure. I'm on Instagram at Danielle Fishel. I'm also on TikTok. I think I'm on TikTok at Danielle Fishel underscore eight. Just like Kobe's number.

When I started the TikTok, that was the only thing available. Yeah. I have a hair care company called Be Free by Daniel official that I am super proud of. And it's a very small little company and every single ingredient and every single product is run through me. And I'm the only tester and very super involved in that. You have a great head of hair. Thank you. Yeah. And why would someone be a perfect candidate for your product? Someone is a perfect candidate for my products if you want more natural hair care products, but that still work.

Like I am not the type of, I call it like my crunchy scale. I'm not a 10. I don't want my products to have like, you know, chemicals that are killing me, but I'm also not going to wash my hair with an unlathering bar of soap that you're calling shampoo. So I'm somewhere in the middle of that crunchy scale, like somewhere between a three to a five. Okay. Yeah. And that's what my products are. They are mostly natural, but they also work the same way you're maybe blaming nine and 10 chemical laden stuff as works for you. This will work for you too, but as much better.

Love that. And where can people find that? We have a website, befreebydaniellofficial.com. Also, we're on Instagram and we sell there. And then also we are on QVC, which is amazing. We'll put the link in our show description for anyone who's interested. Thank you so much. And yeah, and then we've got a podcast, Pod Meets World with Ryder Strong and Will Friedle, where the three of us

sit down and we rewatch every single episode of Boy Meets World in order and then talk about it. And we interview crew and cast and different people from the 90s on the show. So much fun. So fun. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for listening, guys. Don't forget to send those questions at asknickatthevilefiles.com for all things Ask Nick. Don't forget, we have another episode of Better Date Than Never live tonight at 9 p.m. Eastern. We're talking roommates and the intersection between dating and sex and roommates and how to navigate, you know, good roommates, bad roommates and, you know, sock on the door, all that fun stuff. It should be a wild episode. That's tonight live 9 p.m. Eastern. We will see you tonight. Until then, bye.