The Viall Files - E600 Going Deeper with Justin Long Plus Wedding Updates, Harry & Meghan Drama and Bebe Rexha Trauma

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper Edition! At the beginning of the episode, we are joined by our Pop Culture Correspondent to discuss current headlines such as Meghan Markle’s podcast being dropped from Spotify, Kelly Osbourne’s commentary about Prince Harry, Bebe Rexha’s concert injury, and Cyndi Lauper not being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Then, we are joined by friend of show Justin Long to talk about everything from skydiving to childhood memories to love lives. He shares a glimpse into his marriage and what attracted him to his wife, and asks Nick some great questions about his relationship with Natalie. Finally, we have a Texting Office Hours caller who got in an argument with her brother in law and since then has been receiving the silent treatment. We sit down with her (and her husband) to create a plan of action.  “I’m not good at many things, but I’m good at apologizing.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/   To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com    If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: IQ Bar - Now get twenty percent off all IQBAR products, plus get FREE shipping. To get your twenty percent off, just text FILES to sixty-four thousand. Paramount Plus - Embrace reality. Paramount Plus. Stream now.  Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @justinlong @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell 

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what's going on everybody welcome back to another special edition of the vile files going deeper edition episode number 600 Round of applause. With us is the household of Allie, Amanda, and Derek, and our pop culture correspondent, Natalie Joy, is with us. How are you doing, babe? I'm doing lovely. How are you? Natalie's feeling a little under the weather, but she's dedicated to the pop culture that we deliver to this show, so we appreciate her dedication.

I watched her lock eyes with Kiki as you were going through your names because I'm pretty sure the last time you were here, you were like, hey, why don't you introduce Kiki? You're like, that's so rude. Yeah. I feel like you should add Kiki into your household. Okay.

Hi, Kiki. Kiki and Nick have a very distant but respectful. We respect each other. Yeah. Yeah. She gets a piece of his turkey sandwich and that keeps her coming back for more. She gets a piece of his turkey sandwich. And that keeps her coming back for more.

It's a chicken sandwich. A chicken. Well, also, I just want to take the time to say thank you all. I mean, 600 episodes. You know, I know we pop them out like, like what? Like candy? I don't know. Babies?

That's a lot of babies. Shit. Yeah. Ow. No, seriously, though. I mean, the show's been, literally is more popular than ever. I mean, listen, every time we have one of these 500, 600, I just want to express how grateful, I want to express my gratitude and how grateful I am

for all the people listening. To still be one of the fastest growing podcasts out there is super cool, especially given just how long we've been around. And we obviously have you all to thank. And hopefully you keep on listening and tell your friends. And we always appreciate the ways that you support the show and advocate for it and promote it for us. It means a lot. And without you all, we wouldn't be able to do what we love. So thanks uh we have a very special guest the one the only justin long returns to be our guest he was our 200th guest so he's back for

another anniversary it's great to have justin as you can expect it's an amazing conversation but before we get to justin what what do we have to get into did you you guys see that video of Bebe Rexha getting a phone? I heard about it. I didn't see the video. Bebe. Bebe. Yeah, I saw that. A phone like chucked at her. On stage? Yes. I'm assuming the guy got arrested? Yeah, he got arrested and like just very recently it was revealed that I guess

he wanted her to take a photo with his phone. You know how sometimes people do that? Like throw a phone on stage and like get them to take a selfie? Yeah, I doubt he was trying to do it to like actually harm her, but that, like throw a phone on stage and like get them to take a selfie? Yeah, I doubt he was trying to do it to like actually harm her. But that is like people do need to stop. So he threw her his phone so that she would take a selfie with his phone and toss it back? Yeah. Was his intent?

And instead nailed her in the face and caused her to get stitches, I believe. Is she pressing charges? I mean, he's clearly in police custody. So like if you found out if it was an accident, like doesn't that change? I mean, I think there's like this huge thing about like because a while back I was seeing people at Harry Styles concerts. You got like hitting the nuts once. People threw like candy at him and it like hit his eyes. Like crazy shit people are throwing at singers and like expecting them to have fun with it.

And it's like, no, you're first of all, like they could slip on that or like you could hit them and hurt them. Like, why are you throwing shit at them? Like, that seems just so disrespectful. Maybe they need to make an example of this guy. I think it like it follows a common thread of like people just getting way too comfy and entitled with like anybody who's like famous. I mean, she like hit the deck.

Like hit the ground. Did that stop the concert? It must have. I mean, in the video I saw, she kind of like almost tried to walk it off and then just like hit the ground and then you could see like team members from like in the wings

like come out to check on her and make sure she was okay. Like clearly she was not. She left. Yeah, she left the show. Damn. Yeah. That guy must have felt like a dick.

And it's like you can't even be like oh it wasn't me Because like it's a picture of you On your long screen Like is this your dog? Does it unlock with your face? Yeah That's the damning evidence And uh Harry

Harry and Megan are coming under fire Again you love to you hate to see it. I mean, Meghan's podcast archetypes got dropped from Spotify. A People's Choice nominee. She had like a $25 million deal with Spotify. And now it's coming out that she never actually even interviewed her guests. And like the questions that the guests were asked were actually asked by a producer. And then Meghan would go in solo and just like record things herself do pickups that's what like because

some of the guests are posting like is that true i so enjoyed my time thanks to blank for being a great interviewer and it's not megan it's someone on her team so someone else would read the questions and then they would answer the questions and then Megan would come in and record her asking the questions. Apparently that's what people are saying. No. Because they thanked other people for being good interviewers and that person wasn't Megan. And she wasn't having nobodies. I mean, I know they I feel like they promised when that when that show that podcast came out, they the I feel like the expectation was that she was going to have other like heads of state

the oprah rimfries of the world the not that oprah's a head of state but like you know michelle obama you know truly like world to be fair i mean i think it's not a huge stretch that she wasn't based on just like the structure of her podcast she would do these main interviews no but listen to the structure so it'd be like she'd do an interview, let's say, with like Serena Williams. And then she'd have a moment where she's like, she'll do this voiceover and she'll say, I began wondering where like this word came from and where as a society we started doing this. So I decided to ask Professor of blah, blah, blah from NYU. Here's what she had to say. So, you know what I mean those were

always separate clips so does Megan herself need to be the one getting on zoom with this professor at NYU and getting a response no but it just comes across as so inauthentic inauthentic and they definitely don't let people know they do this right like they don't promote this this is not something that is common knowledge we're all having this kind of like really response and what the fuck else is she doing you know mother yeah i understand yeah but but she's also got all this money and privilege and i'm sure nannies and given all this money to do this show and she can't even show up for it well kelly osborne might agree with you because she called prince harry a fucking twat

wow is what she said why is twat such a bad word everyone's fucking life is hard you were the prince of a goddamn country is what she said yeah he's a whining complaining woe is me i'm the only one that's ever had mental problems my life is hard they were coming more and more unlikable. You know, listen, they called the press on themselves and clearly tried to pitch a story about the paparazzi, hoping that they would endear their audience and compare it to, you know, Princess Diana's death. And it worked for about eight hours. And it's still working on me you're a big fan yeah you don't think you don't have any i don't see like the really big issue that everyone has with them i don't have an i don't really i i don't really care i find them to be insufferable and

boring i don't really care i just find them to be insufferable they're the worst they're the most privileged people in the world and they complain a a lot. The thing is, is that their whole point, though, is that like there is a media narrative that is like so twisted that has like forever poisoned like the public's image of them. Like whether you believe that or not, like that very premise is that like anything that comes out is kind of like just like fuels this narrative of like the media has always had this like in like very intense bias against that might be true but i always had a positive opinion of them until i started paying attention and watching their documentaries and assuming their content and then i started to be annoyed by them so i don don't know. From afar, I always found them to be likable and kind of America's versions of king and queen. And then I watched the documentary and I felt like they were just really privileged complainers. Which they do have some valid things to complain about.

Like what? Like the stories that they spread about her and them sitting outside of her mother's home. And like they did some terrible things to her it's hard to feel sorry for them uh yeah they're just dump trucks of money backed up on their front lawn and that doesn't mean their problems aren't real no i just it's just hard to empathize with people who have an incredible amount of privilege and and the thing they do most of is complain me personally i have a hard time i mean i guess that just goes to prove that like money doesn't make you happy true yeah i know it's

we know we've covered the fact that kim cattrall is coming back to and just like that for reportedly just doing something without the rest of the cast and it's going to be at the very end of the entire season two kind of like me Meghan Markle's voiceovers. Charlie makes an impact, not really the meat of it. But Michael Patrick King, the writer and director, was quoted as saying he didn't know why Kim Cattrall came back. And it really did make me curious. Like, why did she come back? And I guess the obvious answer is like maybe they offered her a ton of money.

But it seemed like I don't know. I feel like Kim Cattrall could get her bag elsewhere. Maybe not. Maybe she felt like she owed it to the fans of Sex and the City. There you go. That her, she didn't feel like her out was appropriate. And she understood the fans' frustration when they're just like, where the fuck is Samantha? Like, okay, she's in LA.

She sent flowers to Big Spoon. I'm like, okay, I guess so. She probably was like, you know what? They they deserve something more. So I'm going to show up for like four seconds. Well, I do think she kind of got the best of both worlds in that case, because we really got to see how much Samantha adds to the show, because I feel like that was. And granted, maybe we were just looking for a scapegoat for why this revival like wasn't

what we hoped for. But I do think we really got to appreciate Samantha now that she was gone. I missed her. I missed that sass. Yeah. Yeah. Cyndi Lauper has not been inducted into the Rock Hall of Fame yet. And she was going to saying, I don't need a badge.

And I'm just curious, like, if you were if there were whatever. Someone ask her about it or she bring it up. So she was on the list of nominees this year and then was not on the list of inductees. Oh. So I think that's like kind of the pertinence of it right now. I am the last person to ask about music and history of it, but she seems fairly iconic. Yeah. I feel like she deserves a spot.

Absolutely. She's iconic. She had definitely her day it reminds me of when like Celine Dion was left off that like Rolling Stone top 100 artists of all time list that's insane yeah and it's like if you're one of these artists who's like a mega superstar uncontested history making person and then you get passed over for like one of the accolades like is there anything you can say without sounding either like my favorite musician who handles this well i think is actually jimmy buffett because he produced you

know i mean he creates music that is never it's not really like the nominated for the grammys you don't see him at these like bigger events but he's like thriving down in key west and i feel like he's done interviews before where he's like no I'm good like he almost doesn't need that to prove that his music is good and impactful and he has great fans well Jimmy Buffett definitely doesn't

but I guess yeah I just think it's cool yeah sure but he's kind of a timeless person who still performs I don't know if he still does but he

he still does yeah and if he does he still sells out like he's still a draw right oh yeah and I don't know when the last time

Cindy's been performing so I could see why maybe it might mean more to someone like her he still sells out like he's still a draw right oh yeah and i don't know when the last time cindy's been performing so i could see why maybe it might mean more to someone like her than jimmy who's just like i get validation anytime i walk outside you know and maybe it's just not the same for cindy anymore so i could i can understand yeah maybe she just wants that as like a feather in her cap but it sounds like maybe she doesn't it sounds like she's like uh f the noise although you kind of have to say that you know no matter how much you do want it you can't like when you're not asked back you can't say you're in paradise you're like i didn't want to go i sometimes like it when people are just like you know what it would have meant a lot to me and i'm disappointed i didn't get it yeah amy poehler talks about this for like

emmys about like how it's like you have to pretend you don't want the cookie even though of course everybody wants i like it when people just acknowledge. I'm like, yeah, that would have been really meaningful to me. But, you know, I'm going to be a good sport and congratulations to the person who won it. But like I am, I'm a little disappointed. Yeah. You can still be gracious and express disappointment. I feel like it definitely feels like a very big green flag when someone can talk about disappointment casually or like talk about like rejection or something like that they didn't go their way and admit that they wanted it to go their way without

like being like oh i didn't care if it went my way ever like i'm over it nally and i have some wedding uh updates for y'all so we thought we thought we would share we picked a wedding date spring of 2024 and we're gonna get married in georgia we're taking it back home natalie was that like what you kind of always like envisioned for yourself on some level oh absolutely i like always dreamed of getting married at the place we're getting married at and i thought that dream would be shattered because they the city cut off like 11 acres of this property to build a highway and they cut like some of my favorite part of the property it was like a big willow tree it was just like this stunning piece and the city just took it and so i was like i guess i won't get married

there and then you know we've had a lot of conversations and we have a lot of help from people and we made it happen so i'm'm really, really excited. Things are getting real. I honestly, like when we got engaged, I mean, like, and we even kind of mentioned it, like, I think the intent was to have a fairly expedited engagement. It all happened so fast. And then you start wedding, you know, like thinking about wedding planning. And then for us, it's like, we didn't really know when to start or where to start. It was like, we have all this to do. Where do we, where do we go to? And I think we got a little like overwhelmed. And so we kind of like took a small step back. Then we found Zola and that, that really, that, that helped change our kind of wedding planning course.

Because before that, it was like, what are we supposed to do? How do you start? I have talked to so many of my friends who planned their wedding, and they just always scared me because they talked about how stressful it was. And that is the last thing I want. I want the planning to be just as fun as the actual wedding. And Zola has made it so easy. I love it. I mean, I was familiar with Zola.

Like my cousin Cole just used them for their weddings. And so we got their wedding invite through their, they used Zola for their website. And that's how we RSVP'd and their invites and things like that. We asked some friends and they highly recommended Zola. And so we just started using them. And it really just, if anyone's out there wedding planning and you like you feel overwhelmed and you don't know where to go

and like how to start, like honestly, like truly, you got to check out Zola because they do it all. Like from beginning to end, it's like you can do their custom website and then they have this great place. That's where we did.

That's how we started doing our guest list and they make it really easy to make and adjust. you know, if you change your mind and things like that. That's where you kind of start. We started with our guest list. Yeah. That was the first thing we did. The first thing we did wedding planning wise. You can do custom invitations, things like that. And then because we're getting married in Georgia, they have like, they work with like local, they have worked with all different types of vendors, like, I guess really across the world. Yeah.

You can just put in like your location of where your wedding is and then it pulls up all local vendors for DJ, for food catering, for tents, for linens. We don't know any vendors in the place in which we're getting married. So Zola kind of hooks it up and like gives you a list of different vendors from like, you know, florals and like, you know, like Natalie said, DJs. I'm just not good at doing that stuff. Like, I don't know, like, I don't know how to search for things. And the vendors who work with Zola, they're verified and like approved. So they could kind of trusted partners of Zola.

So they've been great to work with. Yeah. So I'm just like some random person who's like thrown on their website. They've been vetted and they've have a lot of experience in weddings, which is like a sense of ease. Yeah, because I just felt so overwhelmed starting. And I think sometimes we didn't know where to start. And if you have been planning a wedding, maybe you can relate to this. But you just feel overwhelmed. So you set it aside for a couple of days.

You set it aside. You set it aside. But they really made it easier. So it's been a breath of fresh air. I'm so excited because I'm like designing the, on their customizable invite designs to save the dates and like invitations and stuff. I'm so excited and pulling inspiration

from all over and they look so good and they will share a little something, something. We get asked about it all the time and it's like, you know, and it's like we were planning,

you know, we were planning to plan. Yeah. There was a lot of planning to plan. We just needed a little help. Yeah. So now, now we got the ball rolling and uh we will share more of our wedding planning experience with you and uh i gotta

say if you're out there and you just got engaged or you've been engaged and the wedding plans have put off i'm telling you just check out zola especially if you feel lost and overwhelmed they they really make it super easy. Your registry, I mean, from beginning, from like cradle to grave, so to speak, when it comes to your wedding planning process, they have it all. Cradle to grave. You ever heard that expression? No, but I love it.

Cradle to grave. Yeah. Yeah. Zola's got it all there from beginning to end. So you can make like a customizable website, obviously, that you send to your guest list and they can see like itinerary and travel and whatnot and RSVP and stuff there. And you can add like a little video to, so I want to add us a video on ours. Look out for that. If you've heard me talk about weddings, we talk about it a lot lately and I emphasize it's your day and don't ruin it with all the rigmarole. And that's such a priority for Natalie and I. So, so far, so great when it comes to our wedding planning experience. It's giving stress-free.

It's giving stress-free. Yeah. Anyway, guys, once again, thank you so much for being with us on this journey. Whether you've listened to one or all 600 episodes, We appreciate you all so much. What a great time to maybe give us a five-star review if you're feeling so generous. But truly, thank you. We have so much great episodes ahead for you. Can't wait to give you 600 more. We love you. We thank you for all the things you've done for us

and our show. Also, before we get to Justin, next week is the premiere of The Bachelorette season. I don't know if you've had the pleasure of listening to Natalie, myself, and the gang, along with Elise Guilfoyle, going over The Bachelor bios. Maybe you've thought to yourself, I'm not watching this season, you know, for whatever reason. Perhaps that reason was you thought that Charity, as lovely as a human as she might be, might be too grounded, might be too mature. The family therapist that she is, she might be not dramatic television. Well, I'm here to say after watching the first two episodes that our girl Charity is a little

messier than I anticipated in the best possible way. There is someone that she seems to really like that you're all going to fucking hate. And if history tells us anything, it is that great television on The Bachelor is when the lead likes someone that you are truly disgusted with. And she seems to have a really bad picker early on. And I've been pleasantly surprised by the entertainment value of the first two episodes. So that's all I want to say. Either way, we'll be recapping it. I highly recommend you checking it out if you are on the fence, because it is so far a season I have really enjoyed. We are taking a two-week hiatus from

Better Date Than Never Never because I will be traveling internationally and unavailable. So we're going to take a couple of weeks break, and we will be back better than ever when we return to Better Date Than Never. So it will not be live tonight at 9 p.m. Eastern. Sadly, we are going to take a couple of weeks off. So enjoy your summer. Miss us because we'll miss you. And we will return to you in a couple weeks. And we can't wait to do that. Justin Long, everybody. Happy 600.

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You know, they're developing technology. They have it where they can tell what animals are thinking. They can communicate with animals. How? I don't know. I don't know. I wouldn't be here if I knew. I'd be-

But it's coming out? Because I always want to know what Jeff's thinking. I think it's, they have the technology. I think they're trying to make it accessible. They can do certain words. Like there's, they can communicate. They can understand what they're saying they can translate um i think dogs and i don't know i thought all animals were just like

when i hear animals out in the wild i i just think of them like i was in the rainforest kate and i we can talk about that we were in the rainforest and there was just sound i mean you know you put on one of those rainforest apps but it's just noises like a cacophony of sounds and and i just imagine them all to be like i want to fuck or like i'm it's pretty much that right like call signs yeah who wants to fuck i want to fuck i'm horny i'm horny i want babies but all over the place but i guess i don't know maybe they're saying other things when do we have we begun kind of oh yeah we never really know it's just like that's what i like a soft yeah it's a cold open there's some direct like clint eastwood doesn't say action for that reason he just you know and some directors do that whenever yeah whenever i the guy who directed he's just on

that interview was ken cuapas and he kind of sounded like this he was a very sweet he is a very sweet gentle guy and he would just go yeah this he was a very sweet he is a very sweet gentle guy and he would just go yeah go whenever you're ready you know so you don't feel this now i'm not acting and now i am acting so it's just it it helps for a more organic as you yeah yeah i guess i like it when we just kind of start organically and pick up and then sometimes i'll just say like hey justin welcome yeah like there's no it's injured there's no like there's no shift sometimes when you've done these and i'm sure being on the bachelorettes you felt when the cameras came out there was probably some kind of palpable like

energy shift and like even if it's just a little like oh now we're on oh yeah you'd almost see you see it i would notice it more with my peers. I bet. And not so much that I wasn't doing it, but I could see them. I could see the shift in the energy and everyone turning it on. Because the downtime of us just being human beings and talking about life, and then all of a sudden be a cocktail party. I'm like, why are you acting so weird? I bet.

I thought we were friends 10 minutes ago. Like, what the fuck, Jeff? Is there any way to... way that that's funny i know i see that on the show because then they have like especially bachelor in paradise they have have the cameras that people probably maybe even forget about because they're not as visible and so they're behaving a little bit more whether it's more affectionate or like you know they get a little more touchy yeah in those cameras and then i also notice that when they do the outtakes when they're oh my god a bug or something goes wrong stan falls and you get to i i always wish they would include those things in the show as part of

or on the dates you know if something goes wrong that's often when the best stuff happens yeah the humanity comes out we were talking about this on life is short it's my podcast about what what a good first date food would be you know what's a good thing to eat on a first date and somebody had written in about i love soup dumplings these um they're called jowlongbaos i just i took my i took kate there yesterday for her first din tai fung but you did yeah it's have you had them the soup dumplings yeah nick kind of sounded a little sad like you took her instead of me yeah it was very tender can we go he's like he's a bridesmaid but they have to leave for you know a week you're going two weeks yeah yeah i i'm so i wish we could

talk about it because i'm so, I'm so curious. Yeah. I'm nervous. I bet. You can't, you can't say. I don't think I'm supposed to talk about it yet. Yeah.

But I am doing a show. That, that requires quite a bit of courage. Resiliency. Yeah. You don't think courage? Probably. Yeah.

I don't think I'm going to die though. Yeah. But, but there's a, there's a, this is my thing about, and I get into this with Kate all the time, cause she's jumped out of a plane and you've jumped out of a plane. You haven't. I'm going to die though. But there's a, this is my thing about, and I get into this with Kate all the time, because she's jumped out of a plane and you've jumped out of a plane.

You haven't. I have not. You should. Tell me why, because I can tell you why I don't want to. Let's start there. It's, you know, when people die, you know, you read about a death, like there's a part of me that thinks, well, they put themselves in a very dangerous situation. You know, you jump out of a plane

and the likelihood of dying greatly increases compared to if you weren't to jump out of the plane. Yeah, no, I mean, that's a very like sound argument. It's like if you read about a death, like let's say I die doing it and people read about it, they'll say, which is arrogant of me to think that they'll read about it, but they probably will. And it'll be like, I'm sure a lot of people, myself included, might think, well, I mean, yeah.

But it's like the Darwin Awards. You ever read the Darwin Awards? No. What is that? Oh, my God. Yeah. How would you describe people who, I mean. Yeah.

It's sort of, it's like kind of like a cheeky way of. Oh, now that I'm trying to put it into words. Without sounding callous. It sounds callous it sounds callous because it's like it's about it's people who die doing things that were probably were ill-advised they should have known the name being like a reference to the fact that you know like survival of the fittest like this was maybe a not super fit decision to engage in this kind of thing so listen i i think anything could be made into a dangerous thing so like the jumping out of a plane, like skydiving, right?

I get what you're saying. But like the act of skydiving is relatively, well, it is actually not even relatively. It's extremely safe if your focus is just to survive the skydive. If all you're doing is I want to jump out of this plane, pull the ch it's actually extremely safe and i was actually talking about this with natalie we went to we went and got dinner uh at a place called burger she wrote even a burger she wrote burger she wrote i've heard about it beverly very good i read it like a good smash burger it's excellent and i love a good pun yeah and so it's got both those there you go and then right next to it is uh an amazing mexican joint owned by the same people.

So you can actually like order from both. Sometimes we do that. Really, really good. It's on Beverly? It's on Beverly. What's the Mexican place called? Because that sounds familiar. There's like so many Mexican places on that street.

Yes. Okay. It's I think called Consuela. Okay. Something like that. Shout out. It's a good shout out. But like down the path from El Coyote and-

I loved El Coyote. A lot of fun at El Coyote. There's another place. But anyway, it's right, you sit outside, you have your Smashburger, and you're like right, you know, it's like LA. So you have a table and you're next to cars and you're right around the street.

And I'm like, look, and it's relatively busy traffic. And you're just looking at all the people driving. And you just, an insane a number of cars and all these people on their phones and distracting and you're like every day i get into a car and i put my life on the line exactly with all these people yeah that i have no idea what they're doing or what they're thinking about you're at the mercy of all the mercy of all these people and like and when you really think about that sounds insane. And it's simply jumping out of a plane. It's a good argument. There's actually relatively safe. All the accidents, not all, but I, it seems like the overwhelming majority of people who have ever had an accident jumping out of a plane, it's the professionals. they are pushing the limits so they are jumping with smaller parachutes or they're pulling the cord you know far later you know when when they're say only like 500 feet above ground or going at a

certain speed and they're doing tricks and and that's where it goes wrong but like laymen who are just like hey giant parachute where like you know you just jump and pull actually incredibly safe. I, I appreciate that argument. Yeah. And I'm also, um, I also wish I hadn't heard it because now I think part subconsciously I'm, I'm looking for excuses to my biggest fear of jumping on a plane was the fear of falling that,

that, that roller coaster bungee jump kind of free fall where your stomach stays. Oh, you fall fear. Not doesn't exist in skydiving. Really? Yeah. That like my stomach's going into you fall fear not doesn't exist in skydiving really yeah that like my stomach's going into my esophagus doesn't exist really i wonder why sir isaac newton once a body when something is in motion it continues to stay in motion you've heard that type of thing so when you're when you're skydiving you get in a plane which is why when

you drop something from a building no matter the the weight it's it falls in the same same velocity yeah but i don't know if that's the part i'm talking about but i'm talking about the top Which is why when you drop something from a building, no matter the weight, it falls in the same velocity. Yeah. I don't know if that's the part I'm talking about. But I'm talking about the part that when you get in a plane, you're already going 150 or I don't know what the speed the plane is going at. But your body is already in motion. So when you jump out, you're just simply changing direction. You're not starting at zero.

just simply changing direction, you're not starting at zero. And it's the feeling of your body not moving and then going at an incredible speed instantaneously that gives you that feeling of falling. That's the rollercoaster effect. Yeah. Because you start, you're starting at zero miles per hour and then you immediately drop. So like a bungee jump would feel that way. Would feel that way. But skydiving is just simply, you just feel like you're flying.

Wow. Oh, that's a really great argument. So there is no feeling of falling. Okay, well now, if I do die in a skydiving accident. All my fault. Not all, but you've contributed greatly to it.

I'll feel pretty bad. I'll definitely feel bad. The thing that reassures me the most when I went skydiving is I was like, if I die, this place is out of business forever. Forever.

Like there's money on the line for them. They need to be survivors. In this capitalist world. Oh, you're right. I see what you're saying. I thought it was like some kind of schadenfreude. Like if, that they would, because they killed you. Oh yeah, like my revenge.

Yeah, your revenge from the afterlife. From the grave. That's a good point. That's another really good point. We were going to go skydiving for my friends 40th a couple weeks ago, but weather didn't work out for us. Should you guys go skydiving and then go get dumplings? That's not a bad idea. I wouldn't mind going skydiving for my friends 40th a couple weeks ago but weather didn't work out should you guys go skydiving and then go get dumplings that's not a that would be bad idea i wouldn't mind going skydive i think you'd be a good person to go skydiving with because you sound well because

you're making a good argument for but also you i bet you'd be very relaxed i was very nervous i mean i haven't done it in 20 years oh i did it for my college graduation oh you've done it once then only done it once and at what point in the dive did you think this is great this is not what i thought it was going to be it's not scary um when you landed yeah yeah because because it was tandem right and so you're strapped to like someone who knows what they're doing and it's and so when you're what are they doing are they yelling things like they're all they're the people. Oh, okay. Now this is a con. Put this in the con. The con is they're kind of,

they're kind of carnies of the sky. Yeah. They're kind of grimy. And then like they, and granted this is 20 years ago, so maybe 2023, they're a little bit more appropriate, but they were being super inappropriate with all the women.

And this is my experience, but like you're strapped in. So once you're strapped in, it's very intimate. You're, you're, you're fucked. You're like,

I'm actually, I have no choice but to roll out of this plane and that is a very surreal feeling like i'm actually gonna just you saw i'm just gonna jump with a creepy stranger i might die with a creepy stranger and and so like at the time when i was skydiving when i was about to to roll out i could feel so you have like a strap over your shoulder, like it feels like a backpack and I could feel it kind of it felt like it was gliding off my shoulder. No! So I was really paranoid about that but I

forgot about the fact that you have like 30 hooks. You're hooked in. That had nothing to do. But while I was falling I was like pulling on the shoulder and I was just imagining the chute opening and then me like slipping out. Oh man.

And you did such great work to convince me to do it. And now you're undoing. But it was totally safe. That was just me being paranoid. I was fully secure. And then in fact, for me, falling was not the most fun part because it honestly just feels like you are standing up in a convertible. Oh, wow. Yeah, the wind.

And there's no sense of falling. But when the chute opens, you're still about, so we jumped at 15,000 feet, fell for about 50 seconds to a minute. So you fall for about 10,000 feet. Wow. And the chute opens at 5,000 feet. So you're still 5,000 feet in the sky. And you're just like Peter Panning it. You're just standing in the sky.

And if you don't, you know, you look up, you see the chute, but like your sense of like, holy shit, I'm floating. Like in, that was to me the coolest part. Just kind of like, you're like, you know. I wish I could just get there without going up in the plane, the anticipation, the strapping and the creepy instructor instructor i wish i could just be in the air you know but once you do it you're landing you're like that was the like i remember waking up and it was a little cloudy and i remember like i was like i even lying to myself being like yeah i want to

go but like i hope it like rains like i it to get canceled. I was definitely afraid of- You had real butterflies. Oh, yeah. But I was very glad I did it. I think I'll do it one day. Yeah. I think I will. The creepy instructors is fun.

So the 50 seconds to a minute as you're falling, are you thinking about the parachute maybe not opening? I definitely thought about that. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, huh, what if it doesn't open? Are you going, are you thinking about the parachute? Maybe not open to that. I definitely thought about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, huh?

What if it doesn't open? Are you going, are you, are you yelling? Are you like, ah, are you saying anything or are you just so in awe of. I was kind of in awe. Yeah. Yeah. Were you a kid who went on roller coasters when, when you were young? Uh, eventually, but I was also was a younger kid that chickened out.

Oh yeah. I definitely was very neurotic about that. First time I went to great America, I went on no roller coasters and I went with my uncle and he was very disappointed in me. Oh, oh. So he, so he was encouraging. How old were you? I'm wondering eight or nine. I've been listening to a lot of like Glennon Doyle and thinking a lot about I like internal

family systems, you know, systems, IFS stuff. And I'm just so curious how people have become the way they are. Where those fears came from. Like Kate has a fear of spiders. She took me on this great birthday trip. We went to the rainforest in Ecuador, which was like a childhood dream to go to the Galapagos, speaking of Darwin. So I got to go to the Galapagos Islands.

And then she took me to this rainforest called the Chokey Rainforest. And she would go, she was so into all the animals. You know, she's adventuresome. She jumped out of a plane. She's, but spiders are a thing. And I asked her why that was. I wonder where that came from.

And she pinpointed it. She knew exactly when she was a kid, she loved spiders and she loved Charlotte's Web. You you know so she and because of that book the the lead the benevolent main character is a spider and um so she loved him she would play with him she would touch him and she grew up in cal she lived in california when she was a kid and she was going to reach for a spider a black you know shiny orbed spider uh with little red marking underneath. And she went to go touch it. And her mother witnessed this. And she, Patty, shout out to Patty Bosworth. And she screamed. And she was, rightly so, because she was about to touch a black widow. She was about to touch

a black... And she didn't know it. She didn't know that some... And Patty said, screamed and stopped her. And it was the fear of that. I do vaguely remember this. Like when my parents were that afraid, you know, you really absorb that kind of energy. And so it was ever since then, she's been really traumatized. It's a traumatic thing. Yeah. But her mother was, see, I think about this and I don't know what I would, like, what do you do?

I was just talking about what do you do with kids? Because, you know, we really want to have kids. And I'm so curious how kids are formed and how you best form kids. How do you keep kids like if a kid is like curious about sex or something? I was like a very like. I was really curious about sex when I was little. When I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, man.

Four, five. I I've I've thought about i actually was thinking about this last night because last night nally and i watched twins for the first time oh and i hadn't seen twins i haven't seen in a long time a long time and then i were it was like it hit me uh marnie arnold's love interest kelly preston is that her who she was i remember i was like i said nally i'm like oh my god i'm just having having this flashback. I had such a crush on her. Me too.

How about that line? Remember that line? Oh, this bed is lumpy. My brother and I always repeated that line because she tries to get, and I didn't understand what it meant. I was like, lumpy bed? Why is she so, because she was just trying to sleep with it. But I was like seven or eight when that movie came out so i remember having a crush on this woman before

i hit puberty and that and like that weird like before you hit purity knowing that you still liked women i it's the weird i had this weird kind of feeling about it when i watched it last night i'm so interested in that period because i've seen in my nephews now they're five and three and and there's this when when they're around kate they like or any i see them kind of like respond differently to to women and to and one of them the three-year-old has like a crush on a girl now but i remember being watching return of the jedi i was that came out in 1980 i was like four when i saw the five maybe and seeing carrie fisher in that you know a bikini bikini leah thom and back to the future. I hate saying that one. Cause I now know Leah, I've become, I've like become friendly with her and she was one of my first crushes. Yeah. Yeah. That's a weird thing, but you're right. It's

before it's sexualized. It's just like, I gravitate toward that person. I, uh, one of my brothers, I won't name. Um, and I have a lot, so it's safer, but you do. That's right. I, uh, we, I don't know. He was like probably like three or four will he know will he know i don't yeah if he listens i don't think he's gonna listen really i don't who knows maybe he does um but uh we'd like walk into his bedroom and he'd be like humping the floor oh yeah and i'm not judging him but i do think yeah i think like young boys or kids i think when we when we get older, we think, oh, I didn't do shit like that until I hit puberty. And I think we forget kind of how weird we fucking were as little kids and how we how exploratory we were with our bodies and certain things before we even knew what it was but then the thing i'm so the thing i'm curious about now is how do we as as parents as potential parents what do you do in in the face of that how do you respond to that without adding without like injection shame or fear or you know uh like a friend of mine said he had a moment with his son in the in the bathtub they were taking a bath

together i used to take baths with my dad and and um and he i i think he was at one years old maybe like maybe around one maybe one and a half he just grabbed my friend's penis yeah grabbed my friend's penis and uh just held it and he just stared at him and my friend and there's no like there's no playbook for that there's no like, there's no playbook for that. There's no like, I don't think parent, parent work. That's like, if your child grabs your penis and stares at you, here's what you do in the bathtub or anywhere because you want to laugh. I mean, my older brother has, he tells me stories about raising the kids and he's like, they do things to push your boundaries that are so funny. Sometimes, you know, they're trying to get a rise. I need, they're trying to provoke, but it ends up just being funny you want to laugh but you can't you know so in this

case i said to my friend what you know and he said i didn't know what to do i just i kind of froze and i said that's he said like that's daddy's penis and that's that's daddy's and you have one you know just but how do you how do you impress upon a kid that that's like not something you should be doing in public you know if you're without shaming them without shaming them i mean this is two guys without kids yeah mansplaining child's planning i'm just curious the things i think about because i yeah like you i mean nally and i are very much in the let's have kids stage of our lives yeah is this a first for you to be thinking this way? Have you always wanted kids?

I've always wanted kids. Yeah, me too. So it's always been, it's my dream come true. Oh, yeah. Oh, you'll be a great dad. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you see mistakes your parents made? Do you see things that were, I mean, are you able to discern what you want to do? I feel like my parents did an amazing job, generally speaking. I think around that topic, I, you know, I grew up very Catholic,

very, very conservative. Ah, me too. Didn't really talk a lot about sex. My, you know, I,

I definitely remember the birds and the bees conversation with my dad. You do. How did he, did he approach it? Was he awkward about it? I don't remember him being awkward i remember yeah not really but i also don't remember ever feeling when i was old enough to know what it really was i remember having the conversation so young that i was like bored of the conversation i mean like why are you why are we talking about this like i don't you've already you already knew. Well, I think my Brian down the street, kid down the street, told me about it.

My parents were livid. So then it was like a forced conversation my dad needed to have. Brian jumped the gun. But I also remember not being old enough to have an interest in the topic. It was like, okay, well, cool. Can I go play with my toys toys i remember being in fifth grade i was a late bloomer in every respect you know like um growth growth wise intellectually um and definitely when it came to sex because they just didn't we didn't talk about it in my family it

wasn't um yeah but i never felt comfortable you know once i hit puberty i would oh my god would never talk about it with my parents yeah you know like and so i think that's one thing i very much you know if i were to change anything from how i was raised to how i hope to raise my children yes is i want them to feel very comfortable talking about that stuff me too with me and mom so to speak that's why i'm been thinking about it. I feel like, what do I know about parenting? But I just want, I want to empower my kids to like respect themselves and respect boundaries

so that they don't feel the need to like, you know, rebel against, you know, us or the world and teach. Like, I just want my kid to feel like they have value. And so whatever they do, they'll ask themselves, is this worth my time? Is this worth, rather than tell them they can't do something or shame them into not doing something, I want them to think about whether they think it's worthy of themselves. Well, this Glennon Doyle podcast, which I'm going to poorly regurgitate now uh is they talked about the idea that you're not to compartmentalize uh

things like shame and behavior that is not um healthy so in a relationship like with kate let's say like i i would say if i did so if i behaved in a way that i um i wasn't proud of wasn't like the you know healthy behavior we'd say like well this wasn't good this thing wasn't good this behavior wasn't let's talk about it like where it came from instead of saying you're not good you you know you're you're uh deficient in some way which which causes which creates like a defensiveness and yeah then you go to protect yourself yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just spirals out of control. So it's like this thing, I don't know, there's a way to communicate that to kids.

And my sister-in-law, I think, does that really well. I've been really like aware of how she's parenting because she's, she's got two boys and she's very communicative with them. She's very, let's talk about why you did that you know where it came from where behavior comes from i so i still think i mean as do you i mean it's you talk to adults about it it's it's like how are you formed that way and so if you can nip it in the bud totally yeah well because yeah we nowadays we're learning so much about like how our uh our behaviors as adults is this is a product from things that have happened from our childhood i think that's the single most thing i've learned in therapy is totally anytime we are essentially triggered you know and triggers could be a variety that could be a significant trigger or just like

a like a trigger small trigger but ultimately when we are triggered we we just basically turn into the age in which we first experienced that i am fascinated by it that's really fascinating it led to relationships i was in i i because i dealt with a lot of that without knowing without knowing having those tools and having the i had the curiosity i guess but i wasn't well versed enough in in that in the world of therapy and where these things and exploring where these things come from. And now I just find it. Um, and now I'm with the healthiest person I've ever been with. So I, I, I, it's, it's very safe.

It's a safe place. So I don't have to, I can explore those things in a, in a safe way without like, there being like this urgency to, to save a relationship. And I got to figure out why we're behaving, why is this person behaving this way? Does that, I don't know if that makes sense. No, but, but there's one that I've been thinking about a lot, which is, which you just touched on, which is the, it's called the adaptive child self. There's, there's a school of thought that says we all want to live, we want to get to the wise self

where everyone wants, that's the goal. That's is to be wise and wise selves. But so many of us live, most of our behavior comes from it it's called an adaptive child self which is when we're kids we we and and we respond to dysfunction in our lives uh to protect ourselves and it's actually a good thing so if you have an alcoholic parent um maybe you'll you'll to protect yourself you'll say well oh they're not too drunk they just like to have a couple drinks and they're just having fun. They're letting off steam, you know, and it's a way to protect yourself. So those remain, those adaptive child self impulses remain.

And that's something I've been really watching in my own life, where certain things come from, where do triggers come from? Why do they exist? So I can change it, you know, so I can be better. And I, this may be disgusting. We might have to cut this out, but i just had a moment of a little pride because on on my way here i ate um this might be disgusting i ate a lot of papaya i've been trying to you know cleanse the body yeah get my system going and for your listeners who don't know this is a public

service announcement papaya it has these enzymes that really help you it's a natural lactic lactative yes it helps you move and um and and and i was ali like i might need some really ali is very uh open about her plumbing issues oh yeah i mean like at one point in my life it was like once every seven to ten days like what i'm just like i'm sorry that's shame i'm sorry shame about that i'm so sorry i have such shame around that that was insensitive seven to ten days yeah it's better now good ish does papaya help does it work i don't think i've ever eaten papaya oh i have some in the car i um i couldn't finish it all. Try it out. I'm curious. Because I struggle.

It's been my whole life. So if you just solve my whole life, like, wow. In potty training, were you like a late potty trainer like age? No. Because I had a sibling who was like afraid of pooping. Was it the same one that was humping the floor? Yes, actually. Oh, yeah.

Intuitively. And I think I know which one. No, but my sister and I were both like impacted as babies. Like it was like we came out that way. We were both like lactose intolerant. Neither of us was like breastfed. So it's like we've had a lot of like digestive. Oh, interesting.

Yeah. Huh. I think mine was more psychological. Like my mom's mom. My mom was an actress and we couldn't always like afford the nanny or so. So we would have to like run around the city with her. And which is probably the reason that the idea of being an actor was so stressful and chaos chaos and filled with rejection and like taxi cabs not you know i just it's just chaos and um but i remember her taking us to grand central and if we had to go number two if we had to poo she would hold us she would like layer the seat or something her mom would hold her above the seat in a public so there was this i think it started as like a germ thing.

Whatever it was, it was like, that is bad. Public defecation is in a toilet. It's not my favorite thing to do. I will. Really? I'll, yeah. I had a toilet explode on me in Disney World as a child. Do you think it stems to that?

Oh, yeah. When you say explode on you. I'm not a professional do you think it stems to that oh yeah when you say I'm not a professional you mean like came back out oh no like Jack like it was like touched your body like oh it was right before the parade and my mom like walked me out I was like sopping wet and she was like by the way your toilet is broken because we had to get to the parade and then we had to stay there and they gave me a bunch of coupons and then like they bought me a bunch of Disney clothes to wear because I was all wet so so it came like everything I would never poop again like a geyser yeah oh my god oh my god I well like toilet monster dreams you know how like those I don't think it like super affected me yeah well well yours sounds more physiological like so you don't have just in

terms of like let's say you were to go to a um a doctor's appointment and and there's one bad there's a single stall bathroom would you go with the lock would you go number two in there oh i'd go number two anywhere that's same with yeah same with fate probably go like behind a bush oh yeah wow i envy you i mean i i really admire that because i have i guess shame from it so i i guess what i would precipitate of this was i was proud of myself because you have a single uh single bathroom here i mean meaning like there's just one toilet in the on the floor on the floor yeah it's a community bathroom and i and i use and normally i think this is one of the first times i've i've used that i i will avoid that situation because i because of shame i guess

but i i had to use it because i know i also knew we'd be talking and if and if i didn't get it out i'd be thinking about it and talking about it which is which we are anyway i'm glad we could help you get over that hurdle i am too i. I'm, I'm, I appreciate it. Um, but I, I don't know where I'm wondering where it comes from. I do remember, um, yours is pretty clear. I mean, if I had a toilet explode, I would be, I, I would know that that was it. But I think I, I, I know I, um, I was afraid of using the toilet in school and in kindergarten. I, uh, we, I thought it was a half day.

So I thought my parents were going to come pick me up and I ended i uh we i thought it was a half day so i thought my parents were gonna come pick me up and i ended up we were at recess and i and i learned at recess that it wasn't a half day and so i had calculated you know when you you know your brain your brain doesn't connect to your bowels it's like your brain gives you just enough time to clench because like i i think the sphincter is a really incredible, the sphincter, I remember somebody said, it doesn't get enough credit as a part of your body for like keeping things at bay. You know, just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Just take it, like you stay.

And it's just this one muscle that's doing it. That's keeping us from like- Completely embarrassing. Complete embarrassment. Yeah. All the time. At any given moment. And so it's holding it

together and at that point my sphincter has as much work as it had done it was like sorry i i gave you an i gave you a half hour of clenching and that's all i have and so i just let it go and i it's one of my earliest childhood memories i was probably five and i could i can remember the sensation of it seeping down my legs. I had overalls on. I had Oshkosh bagoches. And the next period was story time. And so I thought, well, fuck, I got to just ride this out.

I got to. There's nothing. I have it. It's going to my Spider-Man shoes. But, you know, hopefully it won't get on the floor and I can just ride it out. And you're too afraid to tell anyone? Yes too much shame. No one noticed? No one smelled it? and so it was warmer in September

and it was a warm day I should have just said that and so story time I made it through story time then it was nap time so we all went on our cots and I remember I remember thinking I was staring at the the clock on the wall I was just staring hoping just willing it to go to three o'clock and thinking, I think

I got away with this. You know, no one noticed. None of the kids noticed. And the teacher, she was so sweet, Mrs. Humphrey, she came over to me. She got all the way up from her desk and walked over to me. She said, honey, do you need to use, you need to go to the nurse? That's what she said. Do you need to see the nurse?

And I said, and I pretended to sleep. I remember pretending to sleep. I being like well probably really poorly you know really like what was it yeah just in the thespian yeah uh and i was like what um and i was like no why would i why no i'm okay why would i need that you know and she was like okay and she went back to her desk and i thought i i dodged that bullet um she's she's none the wiser i played it off perfectly and then she a couple minutes went it must have and she got back up she went back over to me and she said honey a little bit more sternly you know like a little bit more forcefully i really think you should go to the nurse and i

just burst into tears you know because she the jig was up and and so i went and my dad had it was a whole thing my dad had to come with a plastic bag and put my shameful like soil put you in the bag a hazmat suit is that a kid in there yeah de-louse me like a prison what was you first day in prison but but i think it was i think that must have that's a lot of hugely traumatic i think it was i know i'm talking about it 40 years later i used to pee my pants a lot you know like i have a very vivid memory of peeing i i would get excited and laugh and i'd pee oh that's a nice way i remember like i have a vivid memory i feel like that's nice i remember being at the roller skating rink and peeing my pants.

But completely just a little pee or just fully like letting go? I mean, it was enough to make the pants wet. Five or six. So you were rollerblading, but you couldn't hold your pee? He was excited. He was laughing. All right. Now you're judging.

I think it would be harder to hold your pee while you're bleeding. I have this vivid memory of like hiding behind the rabbit cage. We had like a little rabbit, outdoor rabbit cage. In your house? A hutch? Outdoor. And I peed my pants. And my sister would tell on me. And I would be hiding behind the rabbit cage.

Aw. And I was a bit of a bedwetter. Yeah, more of a... Not even a bedwetter. I was a daytime pants peer. Yeah, a day wetter. I would just get really, I would get really excited. You'd wet anytime.

I think it was because I'd be like, I'd be too, I wouldn't go in and go to the bathroom. I would just be having too much fun and I'd hold it. And then someone would like make me laugh. It's like little kids at pools. You're like, no, you have to go. Yes. And then I would like keep my pants. You can always like, as someone who like watches a lot of kids, you could tell like i know they're like little bouncing fidgeting yeah that was me and

i'm like please like i will pause the game like well p my nephew my nephew it makes me smile so so big because he doesn't like i can tell he has to go and his parents will say like do you do you want to go and like no and he avoids it i think because he's having fun playing and he just i don't quite remember the inconvenience you have to go? And like, no. And he avoids it, I think, because he's having fun playing. And he just, I don't quite remember that. It's such an inconvenience to have to go pee at that time. Yeah. Okay.

Pulling my pants down. I also love that they have, the kids have no shame. You know, I kind of remember that. I was talking to my brother. I do the podcast with my brother and we've been doing two now. So we do one on Friday. God, life is shorter. And it's just the two of us talking.

It's so fun. We're just, I don't know if it's fun for other people, but it's fun for us. We're just hanging out. And we were talking about, um, how we used to play.

Do you do this with your brothers? Like play swords? Yeah. Yeah. You pee together. Well, I didn't do, well,

I did it with more, I guess my friends, because my brothers were too younger, too much younger than me. So like in first and second grade, I remember doing that with friends at school. and there was but there was no like how far could you back up from the stall yep sure you gotta get a nice arc yeah you have to get we would play that game well sometimes when i was a younger man you'd wake up with a in a certain state uh in terms of that attention yes that attention and and um and you'd. And you'd have to do that again.

You'd have to like, I remember thinking, I wish I'd studied more in geometry. I wish I knew more about like an arc and how to really measure the distance. Like sine, cosine. Yes. I can't even talk about it appropriately because I don't know the terminology. But there was no shame. You know, we'd be peeing and Christian said, I don't remember ever really looking at your penis. We were talking about this because in Ecuador, I went to Ecuador, I noticed that there weren't stalls on the urinals.

It was just, they were all just kind of open. Was it a sink? It wasn't a trough. Those I struggled with, the troughs. Yeah, like at Wrigley Field, I think they have. Yeah, troughs. Yeah. That's rough.

There's one in city field and that's your your cubs fan i'm brewer fan actually oh that's right that makes sense but but there was no and i he's christian said why maybe they just trust people to not be creepy and like look and you know to to get but i said there's no and he said well i said well why would you not want to i mean like what is the harm in just noticing i mean by accident not stare i said there's no, and he said, well, I said, well, why would you not want to? I mean, like, what is the harm in just noticing? I mean, by accident, not stare. I said, there's, if you don't ogle it, if you just stare, it's a penis. And he said, ah, penises are, you know, funny take on it.

He said, I don't know if I just want to, they're just strange. I don't know. They're like pink and kind of like sad looking and strange, like a baby marsupial kind of. I had this friend in college that would if he was not appealing come into a public bathroom yeah it was busy and if he were peeing next to each other he would like make a scene he would like deliberately look over and pretend he didn't know me and like say very loudly and he's like that's a really beautiful cock and just to try to get a reaction out of everyone around him. It was kind of funny. We would.

In what grade? Oh, like college. Oh. Yeah. Oh. Oh. I wonder if he turned out to be. Do you know what happened to him?

Yeah. I mean, he's living. He's a very successful consultant. You know, I wonder because I mean, it's not I don't know if it compares to this, but I knew a kid in high school who would do really daring but like sexual things I went to an all boys school a Catholic prep school and he

masturbated to completion in the back of the class that was kind of like his for a while claim to fame oh yeah yeah the difference between an all girls school and an all boys school the all boys school was terrifying like it was not pleasant to walk through but then the teachers find out about this um i don't think they did i

think he did it he was able to do it because we had some teachers who were a little tuned out like i had a latin teacher god bless him he was so sweet but he was kind of adult he would talk like this he was sort of like um who did he sound like a little bit like robert evans remember robert evans had to produce but Evans? But he taught Latin. He would just read out of a book like this. He looked like an old owl. And he would just... The first declension is A, A, or a...

And all the kids... Because he was looking down most of the time as me. And we used to do a thing where we would just inch our desks up little by little. When he'd look back up, we'd be right in front of him and he'd go that's why cicero was all right what's going on and we were like inches away from him we were all just crowded in and he would go oh all right i'm calling the dean but he didn't want to call we knew he didn't this is also a lesson in parenting because we knew his intention was and he never would call the dean but he'd he'd walk all the way across the room to the phone to like i'm gonna do it and then we'd

quickly move our test back and he'd pick up the phone he'd go all right see that we had moved back he'd go all right but anyway my point is we had teachers who weren't totally um so you were all scooching closer he was just just reading masturbating in the back well i don't know if that was in latin class but there were teachers who were a little tuned out. And he must have done it in one of those classes. He also defecated. I mean, this is disgusting. But that guy, the reason I mention it is I'm like, well, where is he now?

He became like a Hollywood executive. That feels fitting. Yeah, he became like a – and I really i know this sounds like i like him a lot he was he i had a meeting with him in in i don't know if he still is but this was a couple this is maybe 10 10 years ago i had a meeting and like in a position of like a high position and he said to me and we caught up a little bit before and he goes or maybe it was after but i remember him being relieved and he said he was thanks, but kind of like, thanks for, because in the meeting, I was like, they were like, oh yeah, you guys, you guys knew each other back then.

And he, did he have like almost a terrified feeling? Yes. Yes. Don't, don't, don't. Yeah. I hope he doesn't say those things because I'm sure he had some, which, which is a good sign that he had some shame about it. But, but I guess we all did, you you know i guess we all did crazy shit back in

the day not like that i never masturbated in class but uh yeah but he had he did have shame about it yeah but we did some weird things in high school we did i never masturbated in class that's for sure but there were yeah there we were there's a lot of self-exploration yeah we definitely were weird for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And again, if I had known that, I wonder how different my sexual journey would have been if I had felt comfortable, like if I'd felt like that wasn't shameful, you know, I don't think I'd be masturbating in class, but maybe, you know, maybe there's a little bit of shame that's good. Maybe that's the lesson.

Yeah. Like, how do you tell a kid, let's say, hypothetically, you have a kid, you and Natalie have a kid, and they're in school, the teacher says, you know, little Louis has been pulling down. Louis Vial. Louis Vial. Yeah, what would it be? Vern. Vern Vial has been pulling down other girls' pants

because he's expressing. I'm going to be mortified. Well, but he'd be expressing, would that be, it's just like a sexual curiosity. What would you say to Vern? Put me on the spot. Well, because Kay and I were talking about this. We were curious about a hypothetical like that

because I don't know, I wouldn't, neither of us knew what to say what i and we would have to know here's what i don't want to happen i don't want our kid to be around that age and not be prepared for it i don't want the like yeah because like your dad had to have the talk with you because somebody preempted sure i guess a like my first thought when you asked me it was just like well i mean who wouldn't want their pants pulled down and so how do you teach your kid okay i'm your kid i'm your kid and and you you've just been told this by the parents hey dad um so what were you thinking verne so what was on your mind well i just wanted to like

see what was on their pants okay did you ask for their permission no okay well but why do i have to i don't have to ask permission to to touch my own parts well that's because it's your body oh and and and but if i so i should ask permission next time well for starters yeah okay i mean but but generally there's a girl i really like you should samantha so i'll just ask her if i can yeah but it's not very respectful yeah why is it i feel like I'm doing this all wrong. I know. Oh, God.

Parenting is hard. I might need to get some books. You got some time. I don't know. Yeah, you're so right, though, because in that moment, I would be probably mortified, embarrassed. But the assumption is the kid doesn't know better. He just did an act without realizing what he was doing doing you don't want to create weirdness around that yeah undo how do you how do you ride that how do you teach them about i don't know i do remember my parents

like i remember my mom especially it was really important for her to teach us that like our bodies were sacred and we had to protect them and yeah how did she do that she kind of just told us that you know you know with uh i had i had a sister older and a sister younger so i was a you know young boy and with my sister so she was very careful about us you know being respectful of our bodies around each other and shit like that and and so i always just kind of had a you know just a modesty and maybe that was a kind of our bodies around each other and shit like that and and so i always just kind of had a you know just a modesty and maybe that was a kind of our christian upbringing you know teaching us modesty that's not a bad thing and things like that and you had older sisters yeah because it's like these kids some of them are so innocent you have no idea but like i

also know i remember a story of a girl in like first grade and another guy, a boy who was in first grade, went up to her in a hallway, like grabbed her butt and said, that's nice. So I'm like, OK, well, that was learned somewhere that was either heard or seen at home or on TV. Like, so then with that kid, what do you say? Because it's it's not it can't be too late. They're still malleable. that kid what do you say because it's it's not it can't be too late they're still malleable i feel like it comes down to the difference between like shame and guilt where guilt is like feeling bad about an action that you've done and shame is feeling like you are bad as a person and broken and i think saying like this act like really helping explaining why an action is bad and

then aligning how like i see you as someone who is very respectful of your friends i see you as someone who shares i see you as someone who makes people feel comfortable and happy and this choice like made and like kind of framing that choice as being like really outside of their identity so that way it's kind of like that's what i've that's kind of what i was not as eloquently trying to touch on earlier about like you're not bad right this choice was something we should look at and improve on. I also want to make sure I keep, I want to make sure my, like if I have kids with Natalie, I'm six, two Natalie is five,

10, her dad's six, five. And there's the run to the litter. Her uncle's seven foot. I suspect. Oh my God. Now my dad's only five,

eight though. So there's potential, but I suspect we might have good size kids yeah and i just i want my kid to be a protector of other kids right i you know i don't want and i remember i i've always had this like guilty feeling at times growing up i was you know and i i was bullied at times in middle school but i also remember times where i saw other kids being bullied and didn't do anything about it. And I have this sense of guilt and I want to,

if I am lucky enough to have kids, I hope that my kid stands up for other kids in need. Yes. It's something I've thought a lot about. There's, you would love this. There's an essay by this writer, George Saunders, who wrote by pastorelia and he's just a great writer but he wrote it was the commencement speech for i think rutgers university and he talks about just that his his regret like because he's addressing this class of college kids and and i thought it was such a good opportunity to impart that kind of wisdom what are the things you you and he said the the he'd said that the regret he has is not his failure to act when he could have like stood up and i think about that often and i'm gonna brag about my wife for a

second one of the many things i love about her and i remember learning this about her early on was that she is um she's such a kind person but she brave. And, and, and I say that because to stand up for kids when you're, when you're young, when you're going through, when you're being socialized and you're in school, it requires real courage to do that. She told, she's, she'll be embarrassed that I'm telling these stories, but she, um, it's two things. One time saw like that a girl wasn't, one of her classmates wasn't being invited to a sleepover the popular girl had invited kate and a bunch of girls in front of this other girl and and kate said oh i i noticed recognized that so it clocked the girl's sadness and said you know what i'm actually having told her like i'm gonna have a sleepover had a sleepover with that girl and some other girls

who weren't invited just so they would be included and and like that's awesome oh i could cry thinking about it and she did this during a time where it's to your point like i fantasize about you know if i were to go back and do things differently and if i i would stand up for those kids like i i remember them by name and i remember like instances where i was just silent i didn't pick on the kids but i didn't say anything you know and another instance with with Kate where she was, um, like a boy who was neuro atypical, who was, um, uh, disabled was asking some of the girls to go to the dance with him at a, at a football game or something. And they were all turning him down, you know, in, in varying degrees of politeness. No, I, that's sweet of you. But I, and, and Kate marched over to him and said, I would love to go to the prom with you.

And went to her school dance with this, did the whole thing. And these were stories that I learned gradually over time. She wasn't bragging about it. But they speak to her character. That's incredible. What does she attribute that to because i wonder that's like the kind of like something she's born with is it parenting that you know her parents could speak to because that that that is an incredible story yeah because i think more people are like you and I totally to, to, to have the regret and,

and to be old enough and mature enough to say, I wasn't brave enough because I was more concerned about fitting in. And I was more worried about, you know, myself rather than someone else when I had no reason to be. And there are other people who needed that. And then, and to realize,

and then the self-awareness to think about the times where you might have been bullied or picked on realizing it it wasn't a fraction as bad as some other people who experienced it yet yeah and and the trauma that we bring forward you know with the bullying that like we we experience and you can and then you have this kind of like holy shit man if and then you realize just how pivotal those moments could have been and would have been for those people that you would have helped that she in those moments actually did yes i i there's she sent me a clip recently that that just made me weep it was it was about um in japan they teach uh they teach kindness to others to when they're kids they teach how how to share and how to, kids will stand up. They

show them, there's the footage of kids like offering their own seat to other kids. And, and, you know, there's, they, they, they teach an awareness of others, which I saw that in Ecuador. In Ecuador, there was, you know, there's this main city of Quito. There's, there's a real hustle and bustle, but everyone is kind of like in a flow with each other. They're not beeping or yelling at each other. Everyone's kind of playing, very few people on their phones. I see that when I travel usually, and I love seeing it, but I don't know how you cultivate it early. I don't know how Kate is. I know that her mother is very kind and loving. I think she just had because i'd ask her about

it where it came from and i think she just has a real sense of injustice and and and and a kindness she is i don't know she's got a real like compassion early on i would make some i found myself making some snarky jokes and i i recognized them as snarky only because she there were some of the very few things she didn't laugh at you know and she and and i had to i examined them and i and i and i found that they had like a kernel of meanness in them and that was her cut off that's where we kind of like diverted that diverged from one another was that we our sense of humor is so we're very similar but but i found that i had a little bit more of a gossipiness or a snarkiness. And I recognized it only because of her silence, you know.

And she wouldn't judge me. There'd be times where she'd be like, I would examine it because it was a point of fracture in our, and I consider her such a great barometer of what is funny. She would almost like that kind of observant parent almost where she would not criticize you, but just go, Hmm.

Yeah. There would just be like a, yeah. I had a boss who would, every time I would, I, he would just say, Hmm.

Yeah. That's interesting. And I would know that I, I need to make an adjustment, you know or something he would not necessarily he'd just go hmm i like that way of setting boundaries it was a i guess if nothing else it was an opportunity for me to see if i could self-correct exactly yeah yes and what a gift yeah instead of like someone come like it gets back to what we were

talking about earlier if you if she were to have shamed me, she would have said, you know, I think that's really fucking mean. And you should examine that. There'd be, I know I would probably. You'd be like, why is that mean? What are you talking about? I'd become defensive. Yeah. Yeah.

And not learn, not grow. It's not like she's going to be a great parent. She's going to be the best. What's your favorite thing about your relationship? Do you know, I thought, what do I distill? We were thinking about this because, why was i thinking about this that i can distill it down to just enjoying just loving being around her i've i've neglected some friendships lately because um and i've been examining that i read this great book called by dr marissa franco wrote a book

called platonic which is all about platonic friendships and the importance of them and how we place less of an importance on them just because of, I don't know, social hierarchy of what love is supposed to be. And so I've been trying to examine some of them and I found that I've been wondering why I haven't been as active in those friendships. And I think this is going to sound insulting to my friends. I love them, but I just love being with her so much so that when we are together, I don't, it's hard to imagine doing other things. You know, I like, I just like being around her. But why? I think it's because we just, I value, I value humor. I value comedy. I value introspection and curiosity, things like that. And she, I love doing those things with her.

I just love her brain and her body. But I just feel really safe with her. I love that word, yeah. Safe. I mean, it's even it's even bled into like i feel yeah safety is i never really understood the importance of that it always just felt like a a word that people throw around the idea that people throw around kind of like an a an abstract thing that i don't know i never really because i think i never truly had it you know i'm still close with

a lot of exes and and uh most of my exes and and um so i i really and i have so much love for them um all of them but uh she said to me once like you know because we had a moment of like i i don't know a point of where i wasn't examining something that i should have been and i was being defensive being really reactive. I forget what it was. It was early on. And she said it without any judgment, which is important. She said, have you ever been in like a real loving reciprocal relationship?

You know, like a real relationship. And I was like, and I was 40. No, I'm sorry. I was 43. And I was like, and my instinct was to say yeah i have and fuck you like you know i'm a grown man i'm a middle age man but i i did think about it really because of the way she asked it because because i i and i and i i don't know if i had truly yeah uh it's an interesting question yeah i think yeah young love i think you i don't know if you really i i would use the word safe often when describing my relationship with

natalie because i never you're right that that word was not something i would uh use because it was just i'd like the danger too i'd like to like I don't know if I'm, you know. Yeah. Well, because I think young love or my relationships early before, you know, 40, I guess it was, yeah, it was,

it was less of a partnership. It was less of teammates. It was, you, I still felt like an individual. Yes. Dating some, another individual because,

you know, a lot more fighting or just conflict. And yes, it was as easy to trigger your partner. And then all of a sudden, you know, a lot more fighting or just conflict. And yes, it was as easy to trigger your partner. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're, you're fighting for the sake of fighting as opposed to like feeling disconnected. Like now when Nellie and I fight, there's more of a, it doesn't feel like we're fighting. It feels like we're disconnected. Yes. That's not aligned. I like using that word. And so, and then I, this and we, something we, I learned this in therapy and something we incorporate is like, if after 10 minutes, we're still fighting about the same thing

and we're repeating our arguments. Yeah. One of us will just say, like literally just call a timeout and just say, well, we'll get out of table this because that's when you are, you're, you're, you're, you're fighting, you're in your child's state. Totally emotional. It's all emotional. You're fighting for the sake of fighting.

And as frustrating as it is to have the other person call the timeout, because it feels like you feel a bit stonewalled a little bit, but we know the intent. And then one of us, usually the person who calls the timeout is the one who comes over to the other person and kind of says like, I love you.

And, and no, you're still mad, but like you both kind of agree to like, well, we're going to circle back to this maybe tomorrow, maybe another day. But like,

and then it's, it really does help because I remember so many fights that I've had with past partners. It would last 45 minutes, 90 minutes. And you don't, you know, you know, you're arguing about, well, you talk in circles. That's the interesting thing. You're just trying to win. Yes.

And then it becomes about childhood stuff. So it's like, I, I, I'd love examining that stuff. I don't know that I was ever committed. I don't mean like in terms of not being, being, being faithful in terms of like sexually, like I could commit to, to those, to that. I could commit to that. I could do that. But I never felt free. I always felt like when I was in a relationship.

I always felt like that was what scared me about commitment. Because commitment to me was synonymous with not being free. It was losing some kind of freedom. And now I actually feel more, that's cheesy. I feel as free as I've ever felt alone because of the safety that this person like offers, because there's no judgment. There's no, I can, I know I can mess up and not be discarded or, you know, not be in trouble. I'm curious about that, how best to communicate,

how best to move forward in an argument. And I think that's helped me a lot is a three-second rule. I've implemented this three-second rule. So I do it in traffic to avoid reactivity. So I'll literally count in my head three seconds. And it's made a world of difference. So you feel triggered oh i want to self-awareness to go one two three fuck you it changes everything no it does think

about it try it next it's not always easy and i don't always succeed but but um it it really because to your point like you get to the point where you don't know what you're arguing about and it's or when you're really reactive about whatever and you have an outburst. Yes. And you feel that shame. You're just like, fuck. I had the right to be mad, but I did not have the right to do that. Yes.

That's one of the reasons I like watching reality TV, because I see these fights happen. I've been watching The Ultimatum. Do you watch The Ultimatum? Yeah, we haven't gotten into the queer. I haven't had a chance to watch. I've been so bogged down with Vanderpump, but are you watching the queer ultimatum? So good. You just started the queer ultimatum.

And it's good. Yeah, it's really good. But it's, you see where a lot of these, they're actually a lot better. I don't know what that says. I don't want to make a stereotype, queer people versus straight people, but they seem a lot healthier in terms of their communication skills uh on this season yeah because i think there's not like like scripts or like kind of autofill settings like i think being socialized in like a very like heterosexual heteronormative world all that

stuff like you have just like all these presets or like at least from my experience like starting to date women it was like oh wow all these like presets i didn't realize existed actually aren't applicable here because we don't have these like gender roles or these scripts to fall back on and so because of that you're like not doing autofill settings you're going through and customizing and so i think there's just inherently a bit more like thoughtfulness and like consideration and is it because it's we are we i do also think there's a level of like, well, I think, yeah, especially like other queer women, like I think I just really connect with them

just in terms of being like, oh, we've probably had certain parallels of like lived experiences and like moving through the worlds in certain ways and being treated certain ways and having reactions to that. And so I think there's maybe like a little bit of like that, like you come at it from maybe more of a place

of like a shared reference point. Do you think in general, because i wonder now having having been in like a very healthy safe relationship where where like proposing to somebody was not even there was no struggle there was no it was it just felt like such a fluid natural thing it just felt like an obvious like breathing i'm gonna take my next breath i'm gonna take my next breath with this person but people who are reluctant to marry which is what the show is about there's you know what if for those of you who haven't seen it it's um one person one member of a couple gives the other one an ultimatum either marry or we break up and and it's then they're then they have to spend three weeks with another person but i think in general i struggle with the premise because having now gone through

it if if somebody is not willing if someone's willing to go on a show called the ultimatum because they're so reluctant to marry can you ever get past that i mean i don't you know what i mean does that make sense that if how do you convince somebody to to marry marriage to me seems like if you're going to make that lifelong commitment it's got to be people say like oh it's hard you know it's a struggle and i i don't know that it should be a struggle i don't know that's not that's something i can struggle with like it just it if it becomes like a real decision should i ask ask her? Should we do this? You know, it seems counterintuitive. I agree with you, except that I think the times have changed.

Yeah. Because like back 20, 30 years ago, you know, our parents, you know. It was much more traditional. That playbook. You go to college, high school, whatever. You meet someone in your early 20s and you're in love. That's, you get married. Yeah.

And now we're, everyone everyone's dating hookup culture everyone's settling down later in life everyone's like take your time yada yada and and with the indoctrination of dating apps hookup culture and just waiting in general now the idea of the pressures of perfection i think are i've never been stronger when it comes to finding relationships but maybe that's not necessarily bad i don't think that's not necessarily bad but i think um i think it's it'd be i think then i guess in my mind it seems more acceptable or at least i understand why more people might be like like i love you but like are we ready i I don't know. Marriage, it seems so like permanent and things like that.

I see what you're saying. And it's just more, I think, I guess what I'm saying is like what you mentioned, it's like, well, I don't want to ever have to convince someone to propose to me and things like that. And I think back in the day, there were so many people who got engaged and no one was seemingly convinced to do it. but when you think about it was society convinced them yeah sure the you know it was this life convinced them this is i'm of course how many things that we do in our 20s but because like i'm doing this because i i'm supposed to yeah i should do this you know like any girlfriend i had in my 20s where we dated for over a year i'm

like i guess i should start thinking about proposing to you yeah you know and i had no self-awareness of like us if if we were happy or things like that. That is funny. You lose sight of like the, the, the real basic stuff. Yeah. So I think now I, yeah, I don't, I don't think you ever want to have to convince someone to do that, but I, I think dating culture now is, is unfortunately, unfortunately, again, that pressure of perfection and making sure that, you know, you know everything about someone. And it's such a fine line between taking your time to get to know someone and then realizing, like, forever is just, you're making a bet.

You are making a bet on someone. That's true. That is true. And I, but I feel lucky that I waited. For example, like I'm lucky that I live in a culture like we have now. Oh yeah. That there was not that, you know, my parents are Catholic and of course they, they were putting pressure on, but not enough. It wasn't, it wasn't, they're my parents and I was like a grown, grown up. And so I didn't feel enough pressure to like acquiesce to their wishes, you know, and like marry the first person that I had been with for a while. So I am glad I waited and I knew, and I was single for a while. I I'm glad I like spent three years being really single and, and, and recognizing that I was happy on my own and,

and I didn't feel this pressure to, of course I wanted kids and all that stuff, but I, I had been in enough unhealthy relationships um to know that that to to take that pressure off of like i didn't want to be just in a relationship to be in one you know yeah again i i thought i'm never going to do that okay and i call them never agains you know like we look back on relationships we've had and kind of compare notes and think and there's so many things that it's not shame but i I think had I known the things I know now, I would have spent less time in some of them, you know, and I'm glad I learned them. And they're real pillars now of things that I won't tolerate. I won't, you know, tolerate in my life, like in

any relationship. But I think it took being in a lot of things being in different ones and and being on my own for a while to to know that for sure so i think um i guess what i'm saying is if you have doubts if you're struggling i i think that's the answer is that then you should go you should try to find because it should be i think a no-brainer i don't think it should be a and maybe this is just very personal like it wasn't a struggle for me yeah once i found once it was like that's and i would hear that for years like when you know you know and and it really was like that in my experience i just don't know if everyone i don't i i agree with you because i don't want to sound superior similar in that sense where we waited so long that like i've i was at a different state of maturity and emotional like on you know self-awareness yeah i don't know if we everyone can have that

luxury of just of the knowing of just or just being that part of it is you know for me i i became single in my 30s and had that kind of then the self-confidence to not feel that in my 20s i had this pressure of always needing to have somebody and then in my 30s i didn't feel that pressure which allowed me to stay basically single throughout my 30s yeah i don't want to be with someone for the sake of being someone yeah and then i could be patient to find the right person and then when you when you met natalie like was did it was there a moment like that was there a moment because i had a moment and it was we were friends we nothing we hadn't touched we hadn't it it was but it was a moment like that? Because I had a moment and we were friends.

Nothing we hadn't touched. But it was a moment of knowing, of like real conviction. And it was very soon in where I thought, well, this is somebody I'm going to love in some capacity for the rest of my life. I'm going to think about your answer and then we're going to do a caller. Oh, great. And then I'm going to answer your question after our caller. Okay, great. So time for, is it texting office hour?

What do we set it up, Amanda? Mediation? Yeah, well, it's sort of a mediation, but I would say text. We do have a text. We have some primary sources to go off of. So in that way, texting office hours. It's a meaty call, Justin. Oh, good.

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What are you doing? What do you mean? Just keep it simple. I'm making the promo. Just keep it simple. Just say, the promo. Just keep it simple. Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros. Two guys that talk about Bravo. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav Bros.

No. Oh. Dude, stop with the voice. Just keep it simple. I've seen promos on TV. Dude, this is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here.

If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are going to get tired of it already. We need some oomph. All right, then fine. Let's try to do it with your voice. Bravo, bros. Good job. How's it going?

Hello. My name is Sarah and I'm 29. And I'm Mark, 32. Okay. And how can we help? Well, since an argument I had with my brother-in-law, his brother in March, he's been ghosting me, not talking to me. So he's completely shut you out. Yes, it would appear so.

What's the backstory? Well, he was over here back in March after dinner and we were just kind of talking. And he mentioned he started to bring up his girlfriend that he had broken up with we were just kind of talking and he mentioned, he started to bring up his girlfriend that he had broken up with. And I kind of get uncomfortable every time he talks about her. And it's a relationship that's been over for a while and he keeps bringing her back up. Long story short, it got to a point in the conversation where he said, from your perspective, what could I have done better in that

relationship? And I said, well, you've asked me this question before and you don't seem to like my answer. Is there another question that you want to ask me? And he just kind of, I don't remember exactly what he said, but it felt like he was kind of talking in circles a little bit. And then eventually was like, I've just done so much improvement and I've really worked on myself and I'm in a way better place now. And so I kind of challenged it and said, are you sure? Like, are you really, because you're still here six months later asking me the same question. And he didn't like that. And so he said, I think I need to leave. And he got up and left. didn't like that. And so he said, I think I need to leave. And he got up and left. And then after that I went in because my husband was inside. And so I went in and I asked her, I told him kind of

like what happened, gave a breakdown of the conversation. And he said, well, it sounds like you were probably being a little too pushy. And so I ended up sending him, my brother-in-law, like a long apology text being like i'm so sorry is that what we have here why don't we have justin yeah i'd love to i can do so justin's gonna do a dramatic reading so this will be this is i'm not gonna try to do your voice sarah because i'm not i love doing impressions but um i it's hard for me to do women female voices unless they're kind of closer to my range so So this is a little disclaimer to everyone listening. I want you to know I'm sorry and I love you.

No, no, that's my bad, Sean Connery. Okay, I'm going to read it. This is no more joking, although I'm tempted to read it like Christopher Walken. I'm just going to read it like myself. I want you to know I'm sorry and I love you. Mark tells me that I push too much. And after talking with him, I realized that I did you to know I'm sorry and I love you. Mark tells me that I push too much. And after talking with him, I realized that I did that to you. I know you've been through so much and I

never want you to feel like you can't tell me things. I just know you've made so much progress. And when you asked me that question again, it reminded me of where you were several months ago. And I kind of panicked and didn't know what to do. So I just got pushy instead of listening to you and supporting you. And that was wrong. I should have been more supportive and done more listening instead of talking. I'm so sorry. I love you. Heart emoji. Another text. I also want you to know that there's no need to respond but I will plan on giving you space until you let me know you are ready. I'm really so sorry. I love you. I want you to know you mean so much to me and our family. I truly love you so much and only wish to support you. And I am so sorry my actions didn't display that tonight.

I promise to learn from this experience and we'll do better in the future. Very nice text and no response, I'm assuming. No response. And then a couple of months later, he sent a text inviting him to a family Easter and was like, hey, would you like to come? We'd be great to have you. And no response to that either. Mark, is he also ignoring you? Well, we don't really talk that much anyways.

But I did see him the other day. It was two days ago. And just spoke with him briefly in person. But yeah, we have a fine relationship, no hard feelings with us. But it sounds like you and brother-in-law had a bit of a connection or a bond or you were like the go-to person he would talk to about some of his relationship problems. Yeah. I feel like, I mean, I'm just naturally like a more chatty person. And so sometimes he would talk to me about things going on in his relationships or like

if he was going to ask us a question, he would usually text both of us or like he would maybe even text me sometimes and say like, hey, will you ask Mark this? Or do you and Mark want to do this? He would oftentimes go to like me first, but I'm also just more inclined to respond faster in text too. And what was the dilemma that he was going through that kind of triggered him? He had this breakup that was just really hard for him. I think it was kind of, I don't know. I think it was pretty tough on him.

I'll interject a little bit with that. He had a relationship. He was dating this girl for, I don't know, maybe approximately it was pretty tough on him. I'll interject a little bit with that. It's, he had a relationship. He was dating this girl for, I don't know, maybe approximately a half year to a year. I don't, maybe I should probably know the dates, but I don't. And I guess it got a little smulchous and they just kind of split up. It was just kind of hard breakup and with no, no conclusion, no explanations.

I think that my brother wanted something like to talk, to discuss what happened and why. anything dramatic between you two mark uh you and your brother but why i guess what is the reason for the um is there a disconnect between you and your brother that why aren't you guys all that it doesn't sound like you're that close no i would say it's more of our upbringing uh-huh it's hard to it's kind of hard to describe why we wouldn't be close as far as more of maybe the relationship that we had with our parents. Oh. That kind of caused us to be more reserved. Would you like to be closer with him? Do you aspire to a closer relationship with him?

Yeah. I'll say yes. Yeah. But it almost is it when you say your upbringing, is it like you are you like almost close in your way that you're comfortable, but you're but maybe less communicative in terms of like you there's things you just don't talk about. There are things that we just don't talk about. Sure. There are also things that whenever we do talk about, I've been able to maybe verbalize a little bit better. been able to maybe verbalize a little bit better yeah whenever i try to have conversations with him about these types of things that are obviously impacting him today uh he kind of shuts down and i think that's kind of where we go back to just uh sarah and and his relationship and how he reacted to her kind of challenging him a little bit um so mark have you been tempted to reach out to him and just say hey listen you two are very like the most important people to me, my wife and my brother.

I would love to understand the point of disconnect between you and Sarah. And I'm here. Have you had that? Have you had that communication with him? I have not. And Sarah and I actually discussed this maybe the day after or within the week of, but ultimately me knowing my brother is just something that he won't be very receptive to. Why do you think that is?

I mean, it sounds like, I ask that only because it sounds like he was being vulnerable with Sarah, which it sounds like that's a difficult thing for him to be vulnerable, which is maybe why he goes to Sarah instead of you, which is something to explore. But he was vulnerable and it sounds like- He felt shut down. He felt shut down. It sounds like he got really defensive. And he shut down, we were talking about that earlier in the show, to protect ourselves. Something happened in our childhood. It's a defense mechanism. So his shutting down is the result of some probably

childhood thing but i'm wondering what caused him to shut down and i wonder if it has something to do with him being vulnerable and then it not being reciprocated properly and you you touch on this in your text that you were too pushy and you weren't you said you kind of panicked kind of panicked and didn't know what to do um so so you got pushy instead of listening and supporting. Why is it that you chose that word panic? I really liked the ex-girlfriend. I like connected with her. And so when he says things about the breakup, you know, he obviously isn't speaking super highly of her. And so I get a little bit just uncomfortable. And then I also know too, like in those moments, I want to be direct because I think that's the best way to speak,

but I'm not good at being direct. And so I tend to like, and that's why I kind of came across pushy because I usually tend to overcompensate in those moments. Okay. I feel like my husband's, it's helpful when he's there because he can kind of balance that out and like correct in the moment when that happens.

And so just him not being there and the topic of conversation, like it all just made me feel a little panicky. How many, like, I know you sent this message and he hasn't responded to it, but have you tried to reach out since then where he's, I know you mentioned Easter, but is he? That was the only other time. And then we also have a family birthday coming up that I was thinking about reaching out to him about and inviting him to, but I just. What about you just reaching out one-on-one and asking him to get coffee or something? Because I feel like inviting him to like a family event. Yeah, that's a good

point. Might be from his standpoint, feel like, because now that you haven't spoken for a couple months, like every day that goes by't spoken for a couple months like every day that goes by becomes a bigger and bigger deal it's just like you know and so when you do see each other there has to be some sort of like i don't know some conversation or something that he doesn't want to have or or feels awkward having but he tried to have a one-on-one conversation with you and maybe it almost sounds like from your standpoint that you, you were that person. He felt the most comfortable to have these types of conversations with.

And I'm just wondering if maybe you reach out to him and say, Hey, I don't know if you're up for it. I know we were talking a while, but I'd love to catch up with you one-on-one. Like, are you down to grab lunch or, or,

or a cup of coffee? And then maybe you guys could just hash it out one-on-one without the pressures of anyone else observing or being around you guys. Because you mentioned upbringing and things like that. It sounds like Mark and your brother-in-law aren't necessarily super comfortable with being vulnerable in public settings or just in general and so when you you kind of not that you did anything wrong per se like here he is being vulnerable he's not used to being vulnerable and you're just like he probably felt like you threw it in his face

you know his his vulnerability it sounds like he shut down because it's that that childhood instinct kicked in and was like well now i'm gonna protect myself i'm'm never i'm not going to talk about this and there's probably a hurt there's probably a sense of like real hurt and the fact that you were sounds like somewhat defending he's struggling with this breakup and the fact that you weren't just completely open to letting him talk and vent and work it through that there was some and i'm not saying it's what you know you're entitled to your own reaction um but it sounded like maybe you spooked him a little bit and he shut back down yeah i 100 think i did and this is a great text i i really love like it sounds really it's very evolved and it's loving but the the thing that i'm i'm attached to now in this

text because i just went through something like this with my family, my younger brother, and my parents withheld some information from him that was very important because they didn't want to hurt him. I know I'm being vague about it. It's cryptic, but I have to keep it that way. But the point is, they're in their 70s and 80s. They felt horrible about this, and they wanted to apologize. And so, and I've gotten, I'm not very good at many things, but I've gotten over in my life, I think pretty good at apologizing, accountability, like real accountability. bit in your text was when you did say, you said, here's why I did it. I'm sorry I did this. But when you asked me the question again, it reminded me of where you were several months ago and I panicked and didn't know what to do. So I just got pushy instead of listening to you. You do say what you should have done, but even offering that as an explanation, it sometimes diminishes real

accountability. Sometimes people, because he's hurt and he's angry in that position, in his situation, just what they want to hear. I fucked up. I just fucked up and I should have listened. And I'm regret that without the, I did it because of this. And I think he may, I don't know. I wonder if he's holding onto that. And I wonder if like Nick said, an in-person full accountability, I just, you were being vulnerable and I should have been there for you. And I'm, you know, I'm sorry to, to maybe repair this. It might require real, real vulnerability on your part. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I think that's something that I struggle with in general is like, I almost want to like defend myself and be like, I'm not all that. I promise.

You're apologizing for something that was well-intentioned, you know, and that's hard to do. Why do I have to apologizing when I actually, I meant well, you know, I was trying to help. And it's hard to say my bad. I see these moments as like a real opportunity now, you know, like you have a real opportunity to, when you say the hard things, it yields such like beautiful things. I say this only from, I say this from experiences that I've, um, and I've been on both ends, you know, I've wronged people and I've, and I've been, when you are a count, when it's hard, it's like, we were talking about jumping out of planes earlier. And my wife always likes to say, like you grip the hardest before letting go.

And there is a real letting go in that kind of vulnerability if you were to just lay yourself there. Something he was attempting to do, I think, with you, and it was not reciprocated. And that can lead to very childish reactions because we protect ourselves. So I think if you were to let go and really be totally vulnerable, I mean, look, what you did wasn't, you didn't commit some like, you didn't do the most egregious thing.

You just probably weren't as open as you should have been. You could have been. And also my guess is, and this is just a total guess, but his not speaking to you right now has probably less to do with you and probably more to do with the fact that his feelings on the topic hasn't evolved or changed. So he's probably still hurting or still has the similar thoughts and opinions about the breakup.

And he is going to assume that while you are sorry you you push that you still feel this way about the situation. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, and so if you do sit down, maybe you just say, Hey, you know, and assuming if this is true, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like, you just say, listen, I, you know, what I do miss is being the person you felt most comfortable opening up to. And more than anything, I just want to go to a place where you feel comfortable. So how can I be that person? Like, how can I be someone like I ultimately, when you're vulnerable with me or when you open up, I want, I want to help. And even if helping is just listening, but like with your permission, how, how can I also respond? Like just ask.

Like ask how do they want you to be? I've had to learn that in relationships too. Me too, my God. What do you want? Like what do you want? Like how- Because we're fixers. What do you want me to do in this situation?

Yeah. And sometimes I'll just ask because I don't want to presume that they want a specific type of reaction. Yeah. And so maybe you could try that with him. I went through, and sometimes we really, to your point, reduce things to their essence. Like what is the essence of your hurt?

I forget his name, whatever his name is. What is the essence? What is it that, if you can reduce it to that? And my wife and I, we went through a very challenging time. We were dealing with something very difficult.

We did a therapy session together and our therapist said, what do you, you know, ask each other what you need. And it sounded kind of silly at first, but we were in a state of, I was needing guidance at that point. So she said, ask each other what you need.

And it's yielded such like, that it so simple, but often I've failed to do that in relationships, reduce it to that. What do you need from me? without any judgment or preconceived you know any agenda you just say to your brother-in-law what do you need from me in the future like as you said to feel safe and to feel to feel like you can come to me because i because that is a privilege like it's it's kind of a beautiful thing that he trusted you with with his vulnerability and um and and it's in six months i know it sounds like well it was probably like correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been hearing so much about this breakup and it was six months ago and it's like, get over it already. And you're vilifying this girl that I don't think, this woman who doesn't deserve it, but he's still processing it's just like again i condemn justice but you want to be careful not to try to justify it but you can say when you have that conversation how can i be help you could say well can i ask you a question i ask for their you know but like because it seems like he's just stuck how old is how old is he uh 34 he's 34 okay what do you think he would say to

you if you were to say why haven't you spoken to me in so long? I mean, I don't recommend doing that, but what do you think his thought process is? I don't know. Mark, you must have some. If you were to ask a blunt question like that, well, as it's kind of been alluded to before, you know, whenever he feels like he is being challenged, he will vilify the other person. So ultimately, I feel like he would end up maybe attacking Sarah a little bit. I see. So he's not open to his own accountability. He's not really he's not good at accountability himself. So it's almost like you kind of see where his ex was coming from.

Yeah. Let's just say the way that he painted the breakup is questionable. accountability himself so it's almost like you kind of see where his ex was coming from yeah let's just say the way that he painted the breakup is questionable and it's like it's tough because i'm getting his side of the story and like i don't have hers and like how we always say you know there's three sides to each story sure and you know and so it's just like the whole thing sometimes is just uncomfortable. Yeah, I just I feel like I had a hard time being telling myself, OK, just listen. Like, you don't have to voice your opinion right now. That's been a that's been a big lesson.

Yeah. Yeah. That's been a big lesson for me in relationships is that because I'm a I'm a middle child. So I'm a fixer. I want things to like I'm a people pleaser and a fixer. And I just want to, I want things to be okay as quickly as possible. And a big lesson I've learned is that it's okay for it not to be okay. It's okay to sit for a little while in the not okay.

And it's okay to not be able to fix things. Sometimes people just need to vent. People just need to like get things out and to feel held in doing so you know to they they just want to be in a safe space now it's a little different when like it's your brother and he's saying things that are not aligned with growth like his own growth and i know you want your i want that for my brother you want them to be happier and better people and if they're if they're stuck in in um, in, um, in a place where they're not open to their own, you know, growing themselves, that can be frustrating. I know that frustration. I feel like that's a hundred percent. Like when I'm listening to him talk about it,

I feel like I see him verbalizing things that are going to kind of keep him stuck instead of growing and moving forward. And so I don't, I have like a hard time finding a soft way to like encourage. Yeah, yeah. Moving forward. So what does he claim? What did he claim? Did he claim at that moment that was he like venting because he, does he claim he wanted closure or was he claiming about like not wanting to move on?

Like, was he still trying to get her back or like, and what was his state of mind as the relationship goes, you know, getting over it, moving on or getting her back? Definitely not getting her back. Okay. I would say it's a combination of getting closure while also maybe trying to get her back. So his ego was brute obviously like quite and i think like

i think there's a lot of it of trying to convince us or convince me that like to be upset with her just as much as he is i see be on his side yeah like be on his side and and i would like and there's even a point where you know i even said like i'm on your side like i you know i believe you like is there more from you that you need and it was i don't know it was it's just tough um unfortunately sarah and mark had some technical difficulties but we will leave them some advice within the episodes. So let's take it away. Well, it's an interesting position that they're in. We can talk about the position they're in and how, how one in a similar position could move forward. I mean, what's the path forward

other than, I mean, they have, see now it's up to this guy, the brother-in-law to meet and to sit down. Yeah. Well, and I always have a hard time as much as i like helping yeah people and having these conversations i have a hard time helping people who don't want to help themselves and he definitely seems like a person who's very stuck in and winning the narrative of this breakup yeah that's true and it must be frustrating to be her to be on the other, the advice giving. And when somebody doesn't really necessarily want advice, they just want to hear that they are right. word narcissism around we were talking about this before where it's like someone called in a couple weeks ago and they were just like well i think my ex was a narcissist and i'm thinking like well kiss the shit they were your ex like why are we well i'll tell you what i mean it it does help because there is a trauma you need to unpack the trauma of being with a narcissist if they actually were but they were just like well i i didn't realize and think about it until i saw something

on the internet and it sounded like maybe there were just kind of being a selfish dick. And that's the thing. I think we... We assign certain terms. And I think in cases where you're really dealing with someone, I think there can be real trauma. But I think, as we were talking about before, if you go through a breakup, there's unfortunately arguing and yelling and maybe sometimes name-calling. And not that that's okay, but we know, we are human beings and we, we have feelings and when our feelings get activated, we can raise, we can, our tempers can escalate and we can get mad and express

frustration. And we often have to apologize for those, those moments of expressing frustration. And I think sometimes we just we hang on to relationships we have a hard time accepting are over and letting go and the way we hang on to them is by vilifying them and then and then you know getting everyone around who knew them to vilify them as well you know because it sounds because it sounds like to me she left him abruptly and he didn't want it to end even even mark mentioned he's not even convinced he doesn't want to get back together with this person he's claimed was you know uh not a good partner to him yeah and i think sometimes we you know is that the ego is that just yeah or just like having a hard time letting go yeah you know, is that the ego? Is that just, yeah. Or just like having a hard time letting go,

you know? And that's why, you know, granted there are real narcissists out there, but so many people now are, you know, Oh, was I dating a narcissist because they were selfish?

You are curious. I just heard not to keep plugging her podcast, but Glennon Doyle's podcast, we can do the hard things. Uh, that second to last episode was about being with a narcissist. How do you know if you're with a narcissist, if you've been with a narcissist, how do you know if you are a narcissist? And,

and it's so fascinating. She had a woman on who wrote a book about it. She is like the, you know, narcissistic narcissist professional. She had been married to a narcissist for 10 years and talks about her own experience. And it's fascinating. if if you're listening to this and you you think well maybe i was with um it's worth a listen we can do hard things second to last episode was i am was i and if you ask yourself am i a narcissist because i was like listening to this like jeez i have some narcissistic i'm an actor we all have narcissistic yeah narcissism and does make me a narcissist and and abby uh glennon's uh wife asked that very question because she's really she was like oh you know i'm struggling with this thing now now i'm wondering if i am a narcissist and and the expert was like if if you're asking yes then your chances are you're not you're not

yeah you're definitely not if you're wondering and if you're like but it might be worth um i wonder what this where this guy is on that spectrum And I wonder if it's worth saying to him, hey, look, I'm having a hard time being this person for you, which I want to be, because he's not being accountable for his own shit. Even if you break up, even if you go through a breakup, you have to, I think that's another thing you learn over time. What is my accountability in that relationship? How did I participate in the dysfunction of that relationship? And it sounds like he's not really there. And that could be frustrating for people trying to offer advice to somebody. Yeah.

Like trying to win the breakup. Right. That's why I was wondering, what do they lose if they just say as their, you know, because it's his sister-in-law and it's his brother. So maybe he's just looking for them to be like you're right she sucks we love you i don't know what's the harm in that and maybe the harm in that is like well he doesn't really grow then if he's not accountable for his own participation well that's well if but if that's the question then you know it's do you just want to have a relationship with your brother in law right at what cost she's not his therapist he's 34 she's not going to be they the couple's not

going to be the difference between him figuring his shit out right right you're right and if he doesn't want so that's the fixer in me yeah if he doesn't want the help doesn't matter whether they're willing to give it or or not so can you have then it sounds like she sarah was struggling with can i have she sounds like an honest evolved person can she have a relationship with somebody um without that honesty because it sounds like she was trying to be like listen like if i i want to have a relationship with you how can i have a relationship with you what do you need what do you need but she then you know she also has the right to have expectations and boundaries of that relationship too so she could say listen in the future you know how do you want me to respond if at all to you saying something i don't agree with

but i also i want the ability to say you know i don't agree with you yeah and how can i do that without having something like this happen in the future i was in a relationship once where we we couldn't we didn't fight but things would. Things would escalate, like you were saying, that should never have gone outside the bounds of, oh, really? I see. I don't agree. I see things differently. Whatever it was, if it was so-and-so is the most talented musician, is a more talented musician than this person. Oh, really?

I don't agree. I think this, it would escalate needlessly we couldn't have and i say we i i had a hard time not being able to have disagreements and so i'm sure i had a reaction to when she to her reaction well i i you always you know then it would become you always have to be right then it would be about being right and i would say well this is just my opinion i i did and and we couldn't uh disagree and always it was very like um and this is somebody that i met i think there's a better overall point is that we we got into a relationship before we we were really around each other physically you know we we would i met her i like twitter basically you and we would, we would text with each other for the first few weeks.

And then you foment this, you know, it's deceptive and you get into this thing where it's like, well, I guess we're together now. And then you meet in person and there wasn't really all that much, you know, like primal chemistry, but it was like, but we've been texting and sending these things and it's, and we don't really like know each other fundamentally. Yeah. And then I'd stayed in that, you know, too long. I don't really know each other fundamentally. And then I'd stayed in that too long. I don't know what the-

How long? Like two years. Really? Yes, a lovely person, a wonderful person, person that I like and we're friendly now and things are good now. Because I've had relationships start online, I guess you could say, and. And you build that rapport.

And it's a whole different type of different way of starting a relationship. It is. But if it didn't match my expectations in person, I. I had a hard time saying no once it had already taken off, quote unquote. Once it had already. And that sometimes happened before. That happened in this case before we saw each other in person. And it was like and i have a hard time saying no i have a hard time disappointing you know so i was so which which i mean the lesson is that's a never again that's a

that's an example of a never again and and definitely never again now because i i found my person but but um you know it's, to spend time in any kind of, um, to struggling to make something work. Gotcha. I don't think I'll do that again. I have an answer for your question before we went back to the call when I knew with Natalie. Oh yeah.

Oh good. It was when she basically stopped talking to me. Oh, I mean, well, you know, I, and I've talked about this I was you know I was self conscious about our age difference early on when we started dating and she was very adamant about us being together and I was very resistant to I I was it just the

social aspect of it no that was no it wasn't just that I honestly was just like I did optics the optics were part of it but i also was just like i was genuinely worried about like are we compatible yeah that that makes sense you know so i was just very resistant i was very guarded and i i just i i didn't even want to consider the possibility of us dating so i was very kind of closed off emotionally uh and then she just started you know kind of

setting up boundaries around me and and um she went on a trip and was less available and i kind of panicked oh interesting i felt very 22 again and yeah because it was the not having her that that started not being with her and then you know you know, and then I kind of thought to myself, well, and I kind of try to take my own advice off and give to people like, what's, why don't I just try? Like,

what's the worst that could happen? We could, we would break up. That's the worst. Like, that's not so bad. I've done that before, but why am I not at least giving this very special person a shot?

But the idea of, you know, it was very juvenile of me, but yet nevertheless, it was that moment where I, I think up into that point, I wasn't even willing to give it a shot but the idea of you know it was very juvenile of me but yet nevertheless it was that moment where i i think up into that point i wasn't even willing to give it a shot so i was very kind of closed off to it so i think that's kind of why i i had a the reaction i did which is i felt very out of character for where i was in my life and i felt like 22 year old me and i think it was because i was wobbly you didn't feel well i didn't even i wasn't

i wasn't even tapping into my emotions when it came to us i was very closed off i was like no i just said no to myself constantly and so so it was when she said she said no to you that you had to really examine what you wanted yeah yeah and did you find that the your that your age difference, did it come into play afterwards? Have there been moments where you felt a real divide since then? Definitely moments, but there'd be more moments. Yeah. It's not something I feel like our relationship has to deal with on a regular basis. And does it have to do more with like references or more superficial things or like emotionally?

Um, is it, is there a compatibility that, that, uh, that, that, that you don't question? Where, where I don't feel like it's something that bothers us, like affects us emotionally. Yeah. But I, you know, and she's, you know, we do therapy and things like that. And, um, and what's the most common point of disconnect in therapy we just more do it to stay connected yeah so there's not really to learn tools to like yeah yeah understand each other yeah things like that like kate had a i remember early on one of our moments of disconnect was that she she's a such a generous person and i have a very hard time receiving things i have a hard time like my my um it was father's day the other day my dad we gave my dad

some gifts and he was opening that he's 84 and my mother was like oh this is too much oh you you spent you know and it wasn't the presents weren't like crazy he was like he was getting a bottle of whiskey that wasn't like top shelf but it was he likes the you know the brand crazy. He was like, he was getting a bottle of whiskey that wasn't like top shelf, but it was, he likes the, you know, the brand. And, and she was like, oh honey, when I was growing up, I felt when I was opening, opening gifts at Christmas, I felt such, I wanted all these things and I was, and I had them on my list to Santa. And then when I would get them, especially after I learned about my parents' involvement

in Christmas, wink, wink, I would get very guilt ridden. I would be overwhelmed with guilt and I would cry. It's too much. Because I knew my parents also weren't like, I didn't grow up with money, but they were generous. And so they would give us stuff when they could. But I would have such guilt. And Kate loves to give things. She's an amazing gift giver. She just, like I said, took me on like, fulfilled a childhood dream for my last birthday, taking me on this trip. But in the beginning, I had to, I had a real reaction when she did things for me. She set up, I was hung over one day in Florida and she got this person to come to the house and give me like an IV and was so generous. It was such a generous, thoughtful thing to do. But I started making jokes about it, you know, like trying to,

because I couldn't accept the gift really. I felt uncomfortable. I felt like, and that was something that we had to, and it hurt her. It hurt her feelings, you know? And it was, she said, this is a- Like dismissing it almost. Yeah. And it's a part of her.

It's a very important part of her. It's something that she considers like, you know, it's like a love language. Yes, totally. And so I had to learn to receive, you know, to receive that a little bit better. And it's just, and I love those moments. I still have tinges of, she got me something the other day that was like, you know, I can feel it. I acknowledge it. I get anxiety with gifts sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder why. I mean, do you like giving gifts?

Better than I like receiving them. Yeah, me too. I feel like I owe, it's like I don't like to owe people. That's what it, that's I think where it comes from. Because my mother, when somebody would give us something or invite us over for dinner, she would go right, not to blame everything, but she would go right to, oh no

now what do i owe that it's transactional sure that's been a part of this process with with kate is being in a healthy thing is like just knowing that i don't have to i can't she's too good at giving gifts i can't reciprocate you know perfectly when she gives me things like this i i can aspire to it but it's also something that makes her happy. So that's been a little bit of a journey. I guess it's just how you communicate, how you move forward with somebody in a healthy way. Yeah.

And it sounds like you are, and you have to be willing to do that. So it sounds like early on with Natalie, you were like, I'm not even willing to put in that kind of effort. This is not the person I'm going to do that with. Yeah, I just kind of said no. Dismissed it. Yeah. But then once I was, then i was all in and and had you ever done that before had you ever been all in like that in a really it's kind of like what she said to me

like in a really like a evolved way i'm definitely in when i'm in i'm in but is this new territory for you in terms of like connectivity yeah yeah yeah i've never had a relationship where we even thought about the idea of being connected. Hmm. Hmm. You know? Yeah. It's an interesting,

or it was more like, this is just the thing we're in when I was younger. Yeah. It was just the thing we're in. And then it was like, are we more in love than our, than our friends? You know,

it was very juvenile or you could pair relationships and stupid shit like that. It wasn't the bond wasn't a thought like how like how connected are we are we a good team do we work through our issues or how how do we make the other person feel good and so when you asked her to marry you was there any was there a certain thing she did that that you thought triggered that decision? What did it feel like? Now I feel secure within this. It was just over time. I think it's more over time.

Because once we started dating, it was kind of always in the back of our minds. And after she left and gave you this kind of like, sort of an ultimatum. Yeah. How did you then convince her? How did you communicate to her that you were going to give this a real shot? I asked if she would, if she still felt the way she did

like a couple weeks earlier. Oh, as weeks went by. Yeah, a couple weeks went by. And then I asked her to come out to LA and said I'd changed my mind and I hoped that she would still be willing to do it. Ah. Yeah. And it worked. How long ago? Like two years ago? that I'd changed my mind and I hope that she would still be willing to do it. Huh.

Yeah. Well, that, well, and it worked. I mean, that was how long ago? Like two years ago? Three weeks. Yeah. Two or three years ago. Wow. Okay.

Yeah. That's exciting. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So, so far, so good. So she wasn't subject to any of those, oh, Nick by house, this kind of guy. Like she, she did her friends had, had to have an awareness.

She's dealt with it. And like, even on this podcast, you know, know i still ruffle feathers from time to time so like she's she's become aware of of certain public perceptions of me out there what was the last time you would say you ruffled feathers last week uh-huh what was it what was the i don't know i mean i don't i i honestly don't pay too much attention to it but when when we cover, we cover The Bachelor or other reality TV shows, and part of it is to share opinions about, and as much as we try to emphasize,

we're not really talking about these people, we're talking about their- The behavior. The behavior. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, literally. Oh, totally, that's what I like about it. We're reacting to behaviors that we show, but we don't know them and we recognize it's edited, but nevertheless, feelings are you know

people are sensitive do two people on The Bachelor reach out to you and complain about what you've done no no but if I run them in person they they will sometimes act a little cagey yeah yeah yeah every once in a while but it is I'm excited for charity it's it's a great season yeah I've seen the first two episodes oh yeah oh I like her a lot. I'm excited. She's messier than I anticipated. I mean that in a great way. It's only the first, it's early,

but as the family therapist that she is, I was concerned that she might be too level-headed and too thoughtful for good TV. fun tv for good tv yeah yeah and and so far she it's early she's making some she seems to really be into someone that i i think everyone's gonna fucking hate oh that's interesting and that makes for some pretty good tv yes yeah yeah which which is so interesting that happens with with friends and stuff like you i and i again like when you're with when you're into somebody you wonder how much of that is just and i've thought that about past things how much of it is just chemicals or they're fulfilling some psychological itch that i have that i need to that i didn't work out with with myself how much of it

i i heard this thing that they said that they said recently that butterflies are actually a sign that there's danger. Yes. I didn't know that. The spark, so to speak. The spark. Yeah. It's your body telling you that it's something to look out for, not necessarily to be drawn into. That blew my mind.

I remember there was a line in He's Just Not Into You about the spark. And I say, it's advice that I give to a character. I say, the spark is bullshit. The spark is. And I remember doing that scene and thinking, I don't know if I agree with this. A spark is, this feels like somebody writing and trying to sound a certain way, but, but it turns out that that's true. It's true.

Yeah. It's essentially your body telling you, you need validation from this person. And so instead of prioritizing, you know, characteristics that you probably would, you know, tell, I want someone to make me feel this way, I want someone to make me feel that way. You're just, I want them to validate me. You completely change your behavior around them

and your decision-making process and why you even want. I encountered this recently on our podcast, Life is Short. We had Ellie Kemper on, the actress Ellie, very funny and very smart. She went to Princeton. She's just so quick, Ellie Kemper. She's from Bridesmaids. She was also Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt for anybody who's wondering where you've heard

that name before. She's great. She's got a new podcast, Double Plug. She has a podcast about love, things that we love. She and her friend Scott, they talk about something that they love that happened that week and they have a guest on to talk about something they love and their guest was bobby bones i believe a really interesting funny he was on um he's a a radio personality oh he's he won dancing with the stars yes yes and uh american idol yeah yeah he's and he was so interesting i found him really like sharp and and funny and he was talking about how his wife doesn't laugh at his jokes anymore. And it really hard and i and i said and i thought it made me curious about their relationship and how what would it be like to be with such a funny person

and and i said quinn i noticed you weren't laughing or something like that and zach was like she never laughed she never laughed so she she's a tough audience but i could tell she enjoyed him you know i could tell she's like i laugh when it's you know when it's warranted and i'm around him all the time so it gets to be and it made sense. It was actually kind of like charming and the way they dealt with each other. But Bobby had a real issue with his wife not laughing. And he said on this podcast that he started taking notes. It would go out socially like when he'd say something and it wouldn't get a laugh from her.

He he noted it. And he said afterwards, like, you'd say something and it wouldn't get a laugh from her, he noted it. And he said afterwards, like, you should have laughed at this. And Ellie was curious about it. I was so fascinated by that. And I thought, what does that mean that she does? And Ellie said, did she used to laugh? And he said, of course she did. Look at me.

That's how I got her. You know, I'm funny. And she liked my sense of humor i've been thinking about that a lot because i i wonder what that means like do we become complacent why would that something like that happen and i i've seen couples like that i've seen couples like oh he never laughed you know she doesn't laugh at myself there's things that they seem genuinely annoyed by one another but even comedians tell the same jokes and i think when you're just spend so much time with someone you know it's like i've heard

this joke before nally well i mean i you know yeah i i'll tell a lot of stories yes and so here we go again this story you know but there's still see i've heard, not to be a little superior, but I know Kate's heard almost all my stories. I've heard hers, but I still enjoy, I don't know, I enjoy hearing them. I enjoy hearing them tell them. But maybe it's because, I don't know, maybe it's because it's relatively early and maybe at a certain point you become hardened to the stories. I don't know but i took it as a sign of like well maybe you know not not to diagnose this stranger but i wonder if if you lose and if you wake up and you realize that there's you've lost an enjoyment like a really vital part of a relationship it's

kind of a scary place to be in you know sad yeah i don't know i don't want to be there find new ways why didn't you laugh at my joke i don't want to be you know and i've been i've yeah i've never worked yeah i don't think dally definitely that doesn't laugh at all my jokes does it bother you no yeah well you're secure with it and she knows you know that she knows you're funny i don't think that's why she is with me though. Purely about your humor. Yeah. But it's a reason. I don't know.

Really? Yeah. Oh, that's surprising. You don't, really? I just, it's not a prerequisite for me. It's a bonus. For someone to value. If I make her laugh, great.

Yeah, but if I were to ask her, I'm about to meet her, if I were to say, what are the top five things you really love about Nick? Would humor be? Maybe not. Oh, really? Yeah. But I think it's because I excel in other areas. Huh.

I'm not judging. That's just me. That's an important thing for me. I couldn't be with somebody who didn't really make me laugh. I think she finds me more goofy than funny. Yeah. Well, yeah. She she laughs at me not with me but that's fun i yeah i'm fine with it yeah yeah oh that's interesting she makes me laugh she does yes so it's important to you it would seem like it'd be important i would guess that it'd be important to you uh like top five i think it was a some it's important to me now with

her because she makes me laugh so much yeah she's the only girlfriend i've ever had that makes me laugh well i think from just a outsider's perspective that there's probably a correlation and she she she loosens me up yeah she she she's very good at helping me with all my bad habits that's great yeah that she makes you better yeah yeah i feel the same without having to say that like a cliche i know but but the cliches become like kind of romantic because i i find that about music too i listen to music now and there's songs that i love even ones that i haven't heard in 20 years have a new life because of Kate. I like that. I like when cliches kind of become real.

It's interesting to me what you value in somebody. Humor to me is so important. I think there were moments with Kate early on where we were just friends. And I thought, oh, what a great new friend. And this is somebody and i hadn't really had this in a long time where i she it seemed it felt like hanging out with a friend it felt like and i i know that's what it's supposed to be but it i it was a kind of a foreign feeling to me that it felt like we watch football together and laugh you know and i do that

with my friends and now it's i never found. You know, somebody who really makes me laugh. We fucking, yeah, we laugh like idiots. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I valued it as much until I had it. So hopefully in the end, I'd never not work out where I would, but I would, if I had to find love again, then it would probably, it would be higher having experienced it with Natalie. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. find love again yeah then it would probably it would be higher having experienced it with natalie

oh i'm sure yeah i'm sure you would know really what filled you what what what you valued yeah and what you needed in another person yeah because she yeah she's she just levels me out that's when i need to be that's great yeah oh she's man you can't ask for a lot more than that yeah to be better because and i i found that being alone um afforded me the ability to to to get to a good place with with another person because i i would think well i'm happy alone you know i don't need to be with somebody else so it's yeah it's it's a nice perspective to have i got i hope they get there you know i i know how hard it is to not be with uh i'm so close with my brother i know how hard it is to not be with uh i'm so close with my brother i know how hard it is to not be aligned with a sibling you know it seems

like he's tough it does doesn't it yeah it sounded like the brother didn't really want to go there but he was like yeah reluctant to really participate with his older brother yeah just like i feel like we could talk for hours. I know, I know, I know. We're getting, now we're going up. We haven't even mentioned that you're in our 600th episode. You are our 200th guest. 600, I know, we're going to bury the lead, Justin.

You're a, congratulations. We'll be hitting our 700 sooner than later. 600. I love that you have been part of two kind of anniversaries. Me too. I'm flattered you wanted me on. You've become a big part of our show. I love that you have been part of two kind of anniversaries. Me too. I'm flattered. You wanted me on. You've become a big part of our show. I love.

Our audience loves you. I love being, being a part of it. They're just so excited that you, you come, they ask for you all the time. Oh, that's you guys.

They really do. Get out of here. Sadly, we have to let you go. Yes. Good. It's so great talking to you, man.

Always. And it's so good to hear you're so happy. Oh, It's so great talking to you, man. Always. And it's so good to hear you're so happy. Oh, likewise. And everything's great. Yeah. Do we get to see you in some upcoming projects?

Oh, let's see. Yeah. Goosebumps. Did you read Goosebumps? Yeah. Because I just missed them. I was just a little too old for the books,

R.L. Stine books. Disney Plus. We did the Goosebumps series we We shot it in Vancouver last year. I just saw some of it. It looks really, really good. I'm going to check that out. Yeah, in October. I've heard rumors of Dodgeball 2. It's funny. I ran into Vince Vaughn the other day at a hotel we were both staying at. It was sweet. I got to see his kids. I asked him about it

and he said why well jay long caused such an uproar on on the internet you caused uh quite a quite an uproar on the internet by talking about it and so i think so he kind of blamed me for uh the resurgence of interest i think and um but yeah it sounds like he is doing it it's there's they have a writing a script are you i don't know i don't know they haven't said what the fuck i don't know he said he i think it i don't know if it's the same team i don't know he didn't say much about it and i didn't want to i assumed but maybe i don't want to be let down so i don't want to be attached to it emotionally attached i mean i i hope it would be fun because it was um such a i it was 19 it came out you know every once in a while i get tagged on a thing on on

uh instagram where it was like you know 19 years ago a movie came out a certain number of years ago and he said it came out 19 years ago the other day holy shit i know i know and it was just such a it brings me right back. Whenever I see that movies on TV, if I, if I happen upon it or, um, it brings me back to such a, such a fun time in life. I don't know if you can, I don't know if you can recreate that. I know. I think Ben was a little squirrely about doing a second one after he's, and he said this after, after Zoolander, you know what happened with that. And,

um, so I don't know. I don't know if he's going to, I don't know. I liked Zoolander too. Yeah. You know, I did too.

I did too. I liked Anchorman too. I'm a sucker for those movies, but, um, I hope you guys bring it back. I hope you're a part of it. I,

I would love it if it's done in the right way, you know? Yeah. Cause it's also a special thing it's like you don't want to you know you don't want to shit i feel like you'd all figure it out you're all talented enough um so hopefully that happens yeah well justin again it's been a pleasure thank you for being a part of 600 thank you guys also check out justin's podcast life's short yes life is short life is short um Short it's every Tuesday and then we have an episode called Life is Shorter where it's just

me and my brother shooting the shit on Friday so fun thanks guys for listening thanks as always of being part of our show we wouldn't be here without you guys as we mentioned can't wait till we do 600 more so make sure to send

in those questions at asknick at thevowfiles.com for all things Ask Nick. And yeah, bye.