The Viall Files - E622 Reality Recap with Elizabeth Wagmeister Plus Taylor Swift, Bethenny Frankel, and Lizzo

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap Edition! We are joined by Elizabeth Wagmeister to break down this week’s episode of The Bachelorette. We discuss Charity’s Fantasy Suites in Fiji, and the shocking twists of Xavier being sent home and Aaron showing back up. We also discuss other reality television headlines and pop culture topics, such as Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour, Bethenny Frankel advocating for reality TV stars, and Lizzo’s dancers coming out with allegations against her.  “This was all the producers’ magic.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/   To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Caraway - Visit https://www.Carawayhome.com/VIALL to get 10% off your next purchase. Article Furniture - Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit https://www.ARTICLE.COM/VIALL and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. Care/Of - For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to https://www.TakeCareOf.com and enter code viall50. Wooga: June’s Journey - Discover your inner detective when you download June’s Journey for free today on iOS and Android. OneSkin - Get 15% off with the code VIALL at https://www.oneskin.co  Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @ewagmeister @alison.vandam @dereklanerussell @genevievegoodman 

what's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vile files reality recap i'm your host nick joined by the household of ali genev Genevieve, and Derek. Amanda is what? She's at the World Cup? Yep. Our lady's lost. Yeah. But Amanda's still in Australia. Thriving.

Hopefully having a good time. Yeah. Maybe still watch a couple games. Yeah. Not necessarily the ladies of America. She didn't see them lose. She didn't see them lose. I think that's a good thing.

Yeah. That would be too heartbreaking. Well, I'm sure she watched. True. Or maybe she did see them lose. Not in person. Not in person. She didn't pay to see them lose i think that's a good thing yeah that'd be too heartbreaking well i'm sure she watched true or maybe she did see them lose but not in person not in person she didn't pay to see them pay to see them lose exactly well a bummer they lost good news is though that's bad news good news is our special guest today the one the only elizabeth wagmeister returns to the vile files just an absolute gem of a friend of show. We love Elizabeth on Talk All Things Pop Culture, reality TV, and obviously The Bachelorette.

Elizabeth, how are you doing? I am great. I feel like it's been so long. It's always been too long. Every time. You have a tan. We need to have you back more often. Yes.

Not just a regular Elizabeth Wagmeister. I love it. I mean, yeah. I love it i mean yeah i love it the people want that okay i am tan yes you're tan you just got back from hawaii i was in hawaii and blonde yes i have not bleached my hair i did not put hydrogen peroxide in it there have been questions there have received among the household too like my sister has dm'd me saying is he doing something different with his eyebrows uh my eyebrows got bleached. Yes, it's troublesome. Would you dye them darker now to go back to normal?

I went to an event a couple weeks ago and had Natalie touch up my eyebrows to go back to their original state because they have gotten so blonde in the sun. It looks a little messed up. But my hair gets light in the sun. It happens. And I spend a lot of time in the sun. And it doesn't take much. It happens.

Anyways. Speaking of Natalie, Nick, how is your wedding planning going? Wedding planning is going great. Good. Yeah. We just did our engagement photos. Great. So dropping those soon.

We know where. We have a wedding planner selected. We know who's marrying us. So we're on our way. That's a lot. Yeah. That's a lot of things to check out. Engagement photos are done.

Yeah. I think we have our DJ. Okay. It's a long list of things to do. Yeah. But you've gotten through a lot. How's yours? Done?

It's great. I'm such a good fiance that I forgot to wear my ring today. You know, busy Monday. Busy day. done it's great i'm such a good fiance that i forgot to wear my ring today um you know busy monday busy day every once in a while i'll see uh like now because obviously if she goes in the ocean or shower she'll take it off and stuff like that and like i'll see it on the like a little saucer right there's always like exactly there's always like a little like oh and then it's like oh she's taking a shower right now i'm in the, I'm kind of in awe of people who just wear it all the time. I know you can, but I don't shower with it either. You're not supposed to, right?

You can't. You can. A lot of people never take it off. Yeah, but it's jewelry. It's literally fine jewelry. Right. Aren't we trying to keep it like fine jewelry? I'm with you.

I'm terrified to shower with it, to sleep with it. But then things like this happen. But it's OK. It's OK. You're still in love? Very much still in love. Wedding's still on? Wedding is still on.

We got engaged around the same time, so we're kind of engagement twins. We've talked quite a bit about it. You got engaged before me, right? Right before, yeah. Okay. Yes. But it's a fast wedding. Fast, yes.

Good for you guys. I didn't want to be planning for more than a year because as busy as work is, and I had heard how time consuming it is to plan a wedding, I just couldn't wrap my head around that. It is time consuming. But at the same time, and this is someone who has been engaged more than once. Yeah. You really know when you're engaged with the right person because you just plan it. Right. You're like, oh, we're engaged.

Right. So let's get married. No, it's so much fun. And it can take obviously some time. No, we got right to the planning and it's super fun, but it's time consuming. And then the other thing is it's hard to get a venue on a date that you want. So when we were looking, we fell in love with this venue and they had two dates left in 2023. So we just chose it. We made a very fast decision. We got lucky because we were not beholden to a date. We could pick any date we wanted with the venue that we selected.

Oh, that's good. So there was a lot of fun flexibility there. Nice flexibility. Right. Yeah. Ours was pretty booked up and we saw a date within a year and we grabbed it. I'm excited. We'll see all right i'll

tell you more after i can't wait you know i can't wait to find out what do we got going on in the world of pop culture a lot of taylor swift we're big swifties oh yeah you went to taylor's this weekend how was it on friday night great it was incredible what is the most outrageous moment of the weekend meeting taylor's family. You met Taylor Swift's family? I met her parents and her brother. Yes. And my jaw dropped. How so?

They were coming to say hi to someone that I was sitting by. And I just turned around and they walked in. And I've never had a moment like that where I genuinely, like, my jaw just dropped. And I couldn't. You knew exactly who they were? Oh, absolutely. Like, I'd been tracking Andrea down on the floor. Who's Andrea?

Her mom. Like, I could see her from mama sweet did you act appropriately oh absolutely like she gave me a hug and she was like you are so beautiful and i was like i just like it's so great to meet you thank you for like raising a generation of us we kind of feel like you're our mom and she was like that's so sweet and then she spoke with other people and then as she was leaving she blew me a kiss. And then you met her. Her dad was chit-chatting about banking. So I didn't really talk to him too much. But then I tried to play it really cool with her brother.

And I was like, Austin, you went to school with my sister, which is true. And I was like, at graduation, your family sat like two rows in front of mine. And I just thought that was like really cool. And he was like, oh, yeah, like everyone was abuzz that Taylor Swift was in the stadium and I was sitting there for graduation being like no she's not

that's not a thing and so we're kind of joking about that and then talking about career talking about life he asked where I was living out here little chitty chat

how old is he? a few years younger than Taylor maybe late 20s 30 did you hit on him? 31 31

that's a dateable age he's 6'2 did you hit on him? I don't think I age. He's 6'2". Did you hit on him? I don't think I hit on him. I think I just chit-chatted with him. I may have made a mistake during the Minneapolis show. I'm really angry about this. In June. I might have texted him. Wait, this is a

different time? Yeah. You texted him? Yeah. How do you have his number? I had his number from when he was at Notre Dame. How? He was his number? I had his number from when he was at Notre Dame. Like he was friends with one of my friend's older brothers. And I was like, you need to give me his phone number. So I've just been sitting on it for years. But what if he's changed his number in the meantime?

Nick and I have questions. Totally could have. So this was before this weekend. Yeah. And you messaged him in Minneapolis? Yes. Because I didn't know if he was at the show or not. And what'd you message him?

I was just like, hey, this is where we're sitting if you want to stop by. But it's some random person? Yeah. It's a bit psychotic. Well, I decided to shoot. Did you tell him that you messaged him? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Well, now he knows.

I don't know if he knows that I'm the same person. You didn't reveal yourself. Hey, remember that random text you got from someone? That was me? Yeah, no. I tried to play it cool. That person who acted like we already had rapport,

like we knew each other and I randomly messaged you. That was me. That was me. I think this is salvageable for many reasons. One, he probably gets a million texts.

I'm sure he's forgotten about it. Wait, wait. So your defense is that he gets text messages. Yes. Like he gets a lot. Like we all get a lot forgotten about it. Wait, wait. So your defense is that he gets text messages. Yes. Like he gets a lot. Like we all get a lot of text messages. Anyway, continue, Jen.

I'm sorry. I'm interrupting your defense. I don't get that many text messages. Please continue. Two, he could have changed his number. Yeah, what if it wasn't even him? That's also possible. Right, that's possible.

And three, you're really going to pass up this opportunity to try and date the brother? I'm not not do we even know if he's single no i should we look it up because if not then maybe you shoot your shot here maybe he listens to the maybe i just lay it all out there i'm confessing my sins now that he knows you're a stopper maybe he said it's okay because i had a great conversation with you at the concert you really love my sister yeah it was weird talking to them as she's like performing i'm like that's your kid as someone who's had random people who have found my number text me and pretend that we have some sort of rapport i can assure you that it comes across as violating and and aggressive i'm really sorry austin um i didn't blow up his phone it's not

like i was like i mean one of my it's okay like as if i you did it to me i'm really sorry austin and i hope this doesn't ruin my chance it's okay being your love so you know but i just don't think he's gonna see it as normal no i for sure but neither am i here's the thing when you have a sister who's that famous remember to us to us, she's Taylor Swift. To him, it's just a sister. So probably every text he gets from a random person, it's a bit of like you're on alert because you want to make sure that this person isn't targeting your sister. Right.

But now hopefully he knows that. I was going to say it's also through her school. So you could be like, oh, sorry, wrong. Austin at, you know. Sure. You can play it off. Yeah. Yeah. Except that Allie was inviting him to her seats. cool so you could be like oh sorry wrong austin at at you know sure you can play it off yeah yeah except that ali was inviting him to seats yeah her seats i was gonna make him a drink did you

respond to who dis because you written it and what'd you say i definitely sent him a picture i am a random fan no no no no i lied and i said oh i'm friends with such and such he just replied with your home you kept lying it's a great foundation for this future relationship. But at least we're laying it all out here. Yeah, no, we're putting it. And it's not even really her choice. We're just. Sorry, we're making you lay it all out here.

Honestly, it's the best policy. Exactly. What'd you say? I just said, it's Allie. Ha ha ha. I was friends with blank at Notre Dame and didn't know if you were in town. Where you were friends with blank. Well, that was my friend's brother.

You pretended to be friends with his friend? Yeah. oh no do you know this reminds me i just had a weird memory so in the height of ashley simpson and jessica simpson i was obsessed with them like any millennial girl so i went to the ashley simpson concert with my best friend who's still one of my good friends and both of our dads and their parents walked by and their hairstylist walked by and all these people in their orbit. And my friend and I, who were probably like 12, started freaking out. Like, oh my God, there's Ashley and Jessica's mom and there's her dad. And my dad was like, you know who her dad is? How do you know this? And they had a reality show. So they were famous, too. But I remember we were freaking out, not from Ashley or Jessica, from the parents walking by.

So I kind of relate. No, I get why you were embarrassed. I get why you were excited. I shouldn't have texted him. I'm just giving you a hard... Yeah, you definitely should not have. Well... But, you know, lesson learned.

Honestly, at the time, I didn't regret it because I'm like, this will never... Genevieve's on your side. She's fully advocating for this type of behavior. I think you just get a burner phone to only text him so that he never sees this text string between you and him. But what happens on their first date? It's a funny story. Does she come clean?

It's a funny story. I'm going to have to come clean. At this point, there's nothing I can do. Yes, on your first date, you'll have to come clean. Well, you already have. Austin, if you're listening to this, I'll pay for the first date i'm sorry for violating your trust i'm sorry it's okay you meant well you meant good intentions like you are

you're safe yes like you wouldn't you're not a dangerous person yeah correct that's not like i'm still texting even though it came across as a bit violating this is now a funny story and since you come clean yeah it's a great foundation to start a relationship. Watch, she's probably married. It would be a great... Now this whole conversation is for...

It'll be a great, you know, anecdote at your wedding. Yeah, now I am cringing because of myself. It's okay. No. But how was Taylor? How was the concert?

So good. So good. Natalie got invited to the concert when we were stuck in Hawaii. Ugh. No, I'm just kidding. Hawaii was fun. For are you i was really jealous of all the people who got to go including you i was gonna say i thought i feel like i'm the only person in la who wasn't there this weekend so i'm glad that i was also not there i'm kind of kicking myself for not getting tickets i've

been living vicariously through everything on instagram, and I've been listening to Taylor on repeat for weeks. But yeah, I'm sad that I am not there. And I know I could go tonight. Is she playing tonight? Yeah, six shows. I'm going tomorrow. You try and get tickets to Toronto next year. Right.

We'll see. Maybe I won't. I haven't gone on sale yet. She's now performing through November 2024. But you can always get tickets. You can buy them from someone. When there's a will, there's a way,

especially when it comes to Taylor. Yes. She's phenomenal. Incredible. There's never been anyone like her. You know, this tour is going to surpass a billion dollars.

That's never been done before. That is incredible. Ever. The tour that has made the most money prior to was Elton John's Farewell Tour, which made around $800 million. And Taylor's going to surpass $1 billion.

That's incredible. It's incredible. Does she just keep going? She kind of is, right? She's already released dates into fall of 2024. This tour is going on forever. She's in such good shape. It's insane. Yeah. She's unstoppable, like in every which way.

She's an absolute boss. She's unstoppable in every which way. Yeah. She's an absolute boss. She's a force. She's a true force. Yeah. That's my sister-in-law right there. There you go. God bless. Jen, what else we got?

The crazy little lawsuit going on right now that Bethany Frankel kind of kickstarted with NBC. Is it officially a lawsuit? It's not. Do you know about this? Yeah, I actually know a lot about it. So Bethany Frankel, in the past few weeks, she went on her social media and started talking about how reality stars are not paid fairly, they're not protected, they're not treated fairly. And so she's saying that reality stars should unionize to also create a better foundation for themselves and their livelihood.

So it just started on social media. But now Bethany has retained two very high powered Hollywood lawyers, Brian Friedman and Mark Garagos. Variety actually broke that story. My friend Mark Malkin broke that story that she had now gotten the backing of these two big lawyers. now gotten the backing of these two big lawyers. And now last Friday, I believe the lawyers sent a letter to basically put NBCUniversal on notice. So it's not a lawsuit, but they did send a legal threatening letter saying we plan to take legal action. NBCUniversal obviously owns Bravo and many other cable networks and entities. But Bravo, obviously, is the Real Housewives where Bethany came from. And these lawyers say that they have a lot of reality stars who've reached out to them saying, I was not treated fairly, everything under the sun.

So we'll see. What do you think? I think that it's completely valid that these reality stars are going to want to fight for better conditions. The double-edged sword here is, and you know this better than most, is you sign a contract. So you sign a contract that basically says, once I sign up for this show, then my likeness and my image can be used for anything. And whatever you sign on the contract, I get X, Y, and Z from it. Now, the promise is you get fame and you get a platform. Well, there's no promise. There's no promise.

The hope. The hope. Thank you. The hope. The hope of many. I would assume the hope of all, but I can't speak for everyone. Right. So the hope is when you are signing up to be on a reality show, you will now have this newfound platform on television, on a streamer. You may get famous. You may make money. Whatever happens. is the belief that it's worth the risk. Right. That the benefits that can come with agreeing to something that no lawyer would advise you

to agree with, the benefits will come. That's never stated in these crazy contracts. No one's nowhere in these crazy contracts is this mention of hope. And what it is, is if you are someone who is applying to be on a reality show, you know, you can liken it to an actor. If you move from a small town and you come to Hollywood and you have nothing and you're hoping to make it. If somebody says, here, you got the job, here's a contract to sign. Even if that contract doesn't give you a lot of rights, you are probably going to be likely to sign it to say, this is my shot. This is the way to get my foot in the door. So now what these two attorneys and Bethany Frankel with her megaphone,

what they're saying is reality stars shouldn't have to sign these contracts that are so limiting and essentially say, we know that we are more powerful than you and we know that you want to be on this show. So therefore, you're going to sign this really shitty contract is essentially what they're saying. Obviously, an NBC Universal is going to have a lot more power than one individual who is hoping to be on a reality show. So now these lawyers are saying, but it doesn't have to be that way. And they're hoping that there's power in numbers and that if a lot of reality stars use their voices, then they'll say it shouldn't be this way. So things need to change.

What change are they asking for specifically? Nothing specific yet because this hasn't been formalized, but you could assume what they're asking for is to be paid more, is to have more ownership over the show and where it lives and where it goes to get a piece of that pie. over the show and where it lives and where it goes to get a piece of that pie. I'm not saying ownership in a literal definition, but some sort of ownership in their face being used to bring in a viewer. Right. So Bethany has said something to the effect of, you know, sure, I became a huge star and

sure, I was able to create this multi gazillion dollar empire based off the Real Housewives. But also the Real Housewives became a huge show because of me. Right. That's what she's saying. So she is saying it's a two way street. And even though you have these people who are nobodies at the time that they are cast and the time that they sign these contracts, that once they become somebody, that they should be treated better. But is it once they become somebody's, they should be treated better? They're saying that the contract should be more fair from the offset. Gotcha. It also appears that there's going to be some claims of wrongdoing, which has been teased through this legal letter, but we don't know exactly what those are. So it's not just money and ownership and not letting your face be out there till the end of time without getting anything.

It's also being treated better and being able to feel protected on set. I think when it comes to working conditions of any kind in any situation, I think they always should be appropriate. They should be safe. And I always advocate for those situations. I think the reality TV space is a little trickier. Not every reality TV show obviously is the same. You know, some are like Housewives.

It's a banner pump. The idea is it's recurring. They're back for multiple seasons. I think it's easier to think of those roles as more work. Other shows, it's hard for me to think of them as anything other than like you agreeing to an experience like a social experiment so to speak you know with the idea that it's like a one-off situation because with the housewives the recurring element is like they are in fact playing a role there's an expectation of a role they're supposed to play, yada, yada. Other shows, you know, Bachelor, for example,

it's you're agreeing to go on this social experiment and put yourself in this environment for the experience. You're literally there to fall in love. And anything that stuff like this comes up, I always like, why? I asked myself the question, why now? I confidently think that if Bravo would have presented Bethany with some sort of opportunity that she deemed worth her while financially or her time or something that interested her, she wouldn't be doing this. who got their start on reality. She doesn't need money. She doesn't need Bravo. She's past the point now where she's had her own talk show. She has a deal with HBO Max. She has Skinny Girl,

which is a, I don't know what it's worth now, but at a time was a hundred million dollar company. You know, so I think that she's past the point and maybe your argument of something to do.

Sure. But I think for her, you know, she's kind of known for speaking out against Bravo many times. Andy Cohen has spoken about it. They've talked about it. It's kind of her thing. Yeah. I just don't think it's for me or anyone else or, you know what I'm saying? I don't think she's worried about the plight of reality TV stars. I'm going to kindly disagree with you on this one. I actually think that she's very passionate about this. And I think she feels like she's at a point in her career where there's

something here and this isn't right. And I'm going to use my voice and maybe it's also to fill her time and something to do. But I actually think that she feels like she can help make some positive change given the rare space that she's in. Yeah. I mean, I'm all for people getting paid or working conditions always being improved. I don't know what they're claiming is the specific problem per se. I don't think going on reality TV is often a positive outcome for most people. I don't. And unfortunately, I do think it negatively affects people's mental health or the worst, more cases than not. I agree. But I think the problem isn't whether they're getting paid $500 a day or $1,000 a day, which again, I'm all for these people being reimbursed for it.

The problem usually comes with the hope and expectations people apply to themselves. I don't think it's normal for anyone to be thrust into the limelight. And when things like social media and the internet, and then what it does for your mental health to come down from such a high, I think that's what causes the mental health problems with so many reality TV stars. So when it comes to helping that problem i'm all for listen my personality is just control what you can control right that's just how i operate that's how i choose to run my life it has served me well it's just like it's such a messy conversation i just think because i don't think a lot of people yeah i just don't think they i don't think bethany cares

about me or anyone else i don't i just and when you're talking i don't think Bethany cares about me or anyone else. I don't. I just. And when you're talking about. I don't know her motivation. Right. And when you're talking about the mental health aspect, I imagine that will become a huge part of these conversations. Because again, we don't know what specific claims they may or may not bring forth against these major entities. So maybe it is there needs to be a therapist on set and there needs to be more protection.

That's the thing. They have all that now. And I think the show, for example, like The Bachelor, I think they've made improvements. I don't know exactly everything they're doing, but I do know they have a lot more mental health awareness. I think they have therapists way more available than they were on my time. And I think that's great. I think they could do more when it comes to preparing cast before and after the show. I think those are great things. And look, that's why I started this conversation off by saying it's a double-edged sword, right? If you're Bravo, you may have the outlook of, well, you did sign this contract and you did

become famous and you did get the ability to launch your own company and have a whole career that you wouldn't have had if you didn't have this. We gave you a platform. We fulfilled our contractual obligations. So that's one side of it, right? And then the reality stars who are taking issue with this are saying, I got a platform, but you also got big ratings. And I also gave your show some more light. Yeah, but I guess it's just like all I was willing to do, and I'll just speak for myself, It's just like all I was willing to do, and I'll just speak for myself, I was willing to allow them to film my life. It wasn't like a talent I was bringing to the table. And that's what you're doing, right?

When you even apply to be on a reality show, you're saying, I'm a person who's okay with you filming my life. And that's all I brought to the table, a willingness to be filmed. That was it. Right. I just don't think we are, as a society, if all you have to do to be on reality TV is to be willing to be taped. I don't know if we're just necessarily entitled to become reality TV stars. I do think we should all be treated right. So I just don't know if the people really complaining about this or if they really care about the condition in my experience and i can't speak for every production

out there is that the the mental health struggles that reality tv stars often have have nothing to do with if they filmed eight hours versus twelve my experience is they don't necessarily like their edit, that fans say nasty and mean things, that they kind of obsessively focus on how people perceive them. They start reading their own comments. They don't have, I guess, healthy etiquette when it comes to protecting their own mental health. I think that's where the real change can happen. And I don't think for a second that those conversations that will be talked about. Like, how do we really protect people who go on these shows from the challenges that they often face? And I feel that won't be cared.

Becoming a major component of this. And how are they going to do that? That the reality stars give creative control over their own edit? Right. Probably not going to happen. But you could see them asking for that. So I will tell you that since Bethany has come out to talk about this and since again, shout out to my colleague, Mark Malkin, who broke one of the first stories on this and interviewed Bethany.

Since that point, we've had a lot of people reach out to us at Variety with stories that they are eager to tell. So which pertain to different conditions on set. Sure. So I think that we'll see a lot of various claims come out. And with anything, you know, an allegation is an allegation until it's looked into. And then when it's looked into, will that impact a monumental change that can be a game changer for reality TV? We don't know yet. Yeah.

But there's two major lawyers backing this and putting up a big fight. a monumental change that can be a game changer for reality TV. We don't know yet. Yeah. But there's two major lawyers backing this and putting up a big fight. And this is now past the point of one singular reality star speaking on social media. I think it'll be a give and take. Like, for example, I own my social media. It's my platform. Right. And I just think if negotiations happen where they say all right well you have to pay and they have certain limits that there's residuals elements to it maybe they can see to that and i think the networks are going to say fair enough fine we will pay you but if we do

pay you then we need ownership over the platforms that we're giving you and they are going then to ask for ownership of these social media platforms. And then those social media platforms won't be owned by the talent. They'll be owned by the networks and they will be platforms that the networks can then require people like me to do certain campaigns or social media. They won't be able to do their own thing. I think if I'm their lawyer, I would ask for that. It probably won't even get to that because the argument on their behalf will likely be something along the lines of,

you don't have to do that. Nobody asked you to apply for the show. We'll find someone else. Exactly. So that's likely going to be the position of these big entities is there's always going to be someone who wants to be on reality TV. And if you don't like it, then don't do it. Regardless of anyone will want to do it. Right is right. And there's a certain level of how you treat people. Right.

Which I advocate for. Yes. But again, the devil's in the details. Right. I think when it comes down to it, they'll be asking for other things. And those other things will then, if it were to get down that road.

And I think it will come down to, again, the company side is basically saying, you don't like it, don't do it. We'll find someone else. And the other side is saying, but it doesn't have to be that way. We're in a world in which people shouldn't be treated poorly. People shouldn't be taken advantage of. My prediction is, is that that's not what these people really care about. And if they do get that, I don't think it's going to solve the problem of the struggle that people who go on reality TV have coming off reality TV. I don't think it will change their expectations. And I think, again, it might limit someone's ability to be.

And when I say become another Bethany is to have ownership over this platform and do whatever they want with it. Bethany is an incredibly smart, savvy businesswoman, and she has been able to do so much with this platform. Not everyone is as savvy, as smart as Bethany. Absolutely. I just think for the people who are savvy enough, like the Bethanys. Or like you, again. Sure. But if things change. As you said, you took the approach that I can only control what I'm going to control. I'm sure there's things that you haven't been happy with

throughout your reality TV career. Kind of related to our episode here, where Aaron goes back and flies all the way to Fiji. My guess is, is that one producer got bored, had an idea, and it wasn't like a top-down decision. It was probably just some one producer who was like, man, I don't know, man. Charity said she wasn't sure. What do you think about that? And then planted that seed and hyped up Aaron to fly all the way to Fiji. And now we don't know what's going to happen, but I'm willing to bet

she doesn't end up with Aaron and that Charity is going to play up this whole, I can't believe you're here and invalidate Aaron and make him feel good because Charity is an empathetic, caring person who, while she doesn't want to end up with Aaron, might respect him as an individual. But I'm willing to guess that Aaron, and this is just a guess, that he was manipulated into believing he had more of a shot than he actually had. Sure. And I think, you know, you look at The Bachelor and yes, it's about finding love. It's a TV show. It's about ratings and making money. That's what everything is. If not, it wouldn't be running for 20 plus years and one of the most successful shows on TV. So, you know, any reality show can say it's for the purpose of whatever the show is, but it's entertainment. It's all a business business so it's messy to use your word yeah it's messy and i don't know i'd like to see change that actually does good and i skeptical of of people actually doing something

that's going to bring good and and into this space i think you bring up a really good point, though, which is and I don't know what the answer is, but reality stars, when they come off these shows, they don't know which way is up or down. And I think that's where a lot of the mental health issues come from. I think you're absolutely right with social media and bullying online. And again, you kind of put yourself out there to be judged and to have opinions formed about you when you go on a reality show, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't impact your mental health. I think if you're a reality TV star, you should protect your mental health and caring about your mental health should be paramount. And I think it starts with you. And I think you have to take the

steps to go out of your way, especially when it comes to how you behave online and through social media and stay grounded by keeping the friends you had before you started this experience, that goes a long way. And I see a lot of people who go on reality TV not do stuff like that. And until that changes, I think the struggles of reality TV stars ultimately won't change. And I see that's where most of the pain struggles of reality TV stars ultimately won't change. And I see that's where most of the pain struggles from reality TV stars happen. Right. And it's a scary world. You know, you don't just have to be famous on a reality show. Just social media and online bullying is a very real thing. And I don't think anybody has the answers to that, but it's scary and it

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What do you think of the Lizzo stuff? I think that she has hired a very powerful attorney, which speaks volumes, to defend her. Why do you think that speaks? What do you mean by speaks volumes? Well, it took her relatively a while to respond. And I think that she said, I'm going to get the best protection that I can and get the best lawyer to fight this, because she knew that this wasn't just a nothing claim. And this wasn't, you know, these allegations weren't just nothing. And obviously, this became huge news. This was not just covered on blogs. This wasn't just covered by entertainment entities.

This was covered worldwide. And I think the reason why it struck such a chord is because Lizzo's whole persona has been based on body positivity and treating people with kindness. And then these allegations, which are just allegations, what she denies, it's a stark contrast to what everybody has known and loved about her. So I think that it's raised a lot of questions in fans' minds. And again, they're just allegations. But once it's out there, now people are asking all sorts of questions. And, you know And you have her three dancers who are speaking to the media a lot and talking about all of their claims. And again, I think it's such

a shock because these claims go exactly against what everything that Lizzo has said, but she's denying it. You have worked in this space for a long time. You have dealt with so many celebrities, worked in this space for a long time. You have dealt with so many celebrities, reality TV stars, musicians, actors. People often aren't what they claim to be. Correct. I'm sure you, and I'm not

asking for names, but if you and I were getting a coffee, the list might even be longer about celebrities who come off one way but are a different way. Rather than celebrities who, yeah, this is who they are. It's a business based off of an image, right? No matter how talented you are, if the public doesn't like your image and they don't like who you are, are they going

to buy your albums? Are they going to go buy a ticket for your movie? So Hollywood is very much based on public persona. And that's why you have publicists and managers and all these experts who help to craft this persona. And often it's not what it is meant to be. Now, I'm not talking about Lizzo. I'm just speaking in general. I don't know Lizzo. I've never met Lizzo. I'm a fan of Lizzo. I don't know Lizzo. I'm a fan of Lizzo as well. I don't know Lizzo. I'm a fan of Lizzo as well. I did when this broke. I text a friend who had worked on one of her projects.

And I just said, what do you think? And they responded with karma's a bitch. And they just said they weren't surprised. Here's what I will say. Again, speaking in general, usually when there's smoke, there's fire. Now, this was not one person. This was three. The multiple one is definitely damning. Three says that it's some sort of pattern. Lizzo is obviously a huge star who's worked with many people, not just these three dancers. So I think time will tell. Are there going to be more people who come out? I watched an interview with the three dancers accusing her who said that they believe that there will be more to come out. And again, I'm speaking in general, but I think that anytime there is a pattern and more people come out, that obviously raises

the stakes. Yeah. We were talking about this earlier and I saw this on TikTok. A couple people have these comments. The big response with Lizzo is how surprised given what she has stood for. But I think that's kind of my point. It's like, I don't know whether it's true or not, but if it is true, why is it so surprising? Is it so surprising that a public facing person? And that's the thing is, regardless of whether it's true or not, Lizzo still has a has done a ton of good for that community. You know, she's brought a ton of awareness and she's advocated what I assume a lot of people have found a sense of pride and purpose and confidence through Lizzo's music and just what she stood for. Would it be surprising to me that someone in that position might believe their own hype, you know,

and it's not, it's just might become a diva, might become rude to people. And this isn't justified, but just like kind of believe their own bullshit and start acting in a way and not surround themselves with people who say, you're kind of being a dick, you know, or I don't know if you can act that way. Right. Or like, do you think maybe you should apologize to so-and-so? And all these celebrities have these, like, live in these vacuums of yes men

and no one there to hold them accountable. And so is it shocking to me that, and so it wouldn't surprise me if, let's say, if this were true, that she wouldn't even see it. And then that doesn't make it okay. to realize that Lizzo could advocate for this topic while coming across as potentially hypocrite and her not even being self-aware because of how big of a celebrity in their circle. And again, I would say this in generality, it wouldn't surprise me if anyone in a way, and it's sad because, you know, it's not okay if this is true. So I always say as a human, this is my mantra as a human being, right? Not so much as a journalist. This is just my take and how I was raised. As a human, you know right from wrong.

And you should treat people with kindness and you should treat people with respect. And no matter how famous you are, no matter how rich you are, you shouldn't treat people a different way. Totally. Now we know that that's not what happens oftentimes. And I think you're absolutely right that in Hollywood, it's a business of yes people. And when you become Totally. that they don't agree with or that they don't appreciate, they may not tell you to knock it off because they don't want to be fired and they don't want to lose their livelihood. And I think, you know, this all goes back to five plus years ago when the Me Too movement started, that really opened up the floodgates for people to talk about all sorts of behavior and all sorts of treatment. And we're now living in the social media age where maybe back in the day, you were

just treated horribly and you had to keep your mouth shut because you were worried that you would be fired and you would lose your job. And now people are not scared. And I think there's good and bad that comes with that. Well, yeah, because on the flip side of that argument, there was an article out there of I think it was the women from Jersey Shore who said how they had a rude experience with Ryan Reynolds. And they're like, oh, maybe he just had a bad day. And I met Ryan Reynolds once. He was incredibly delightful. And I get the flip side of that is every person's allowed to not meet your expectations of how they should introduce themselves to you or how much time or consideration they should give to you. And you have the right to say that it was rude or not.

That is a struggle. You know, I'm not Ryan Reynolds, that's for sure. But every time I have someone come up to me and like, whether they mean to or not, sometimes could ask what comes across to me as a rude question or invasive. And I try my best and I'm always asking, I was nice, right?

Cause like, I mean, cause there's this balance of wanting to give them the attention they want, but also not want to get stuck in a 20 minute conversation because they get excited and they mean well. But they also want to become your best friend and ask a bunch of personal questions of which you kind of don't want to even tell them it's personal because you just you're just trying to. And it's a tough thing to navigate. Right. But like everyone has their own expectation of how they should be treated. And just because Ryan Reynolds doesn't meet Snooki's expectation, does that make him an asshole? Does that make him rude? Right.

You know, but that's something he, Ryan Reynolds, always has to be on, always has to be careful. And some could argue that's the price of being a celebrity. You know, there is that. But yes, just because someone doesn't meet your expectations doesn't mean they're a prick. But at the same time, that's not the same as mistreating employees and doing some of the things that Lizzo is being accused of. Right. And I think that, as we're saying, there's a lot of good that comes from people speaking up. There also is a lot of bad. I think that with everybody having their own platform, living in this day and age, there's a lot more false accusations that are out in a public forum

than were 10 years ago, which makes my job as a journalist more important because you need people who are really going to see what allegation is true and what is false. And even though this is a lawsuit, anybody can file a lawsuit, right? You would hope that an attorney wouldn't take on a case that's complete BS, but anybody could file a lawsuit. So at this point, as goes with everything, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Not in the court of public opinion. Not in the court of public opinion. And that's where this conversation comes into play is whatever happens with this, how does this impact Lizzo's brand? And that's why I say, it'll be interesting to watch. Is there a pattern? Are there more people? There's already three, but does it become 33?

Has anyone come to her defense? Because she's definitely worked with a ton. Not that I've seen. Also, maybe why would they come to her defense, right? If these allegations are out there, why does a famous person want to say, but I love her? Not a famous person, but maybe another dancer or employee. Not that I've seen. I can only speak to my

experience but i always felt like i was treated with x y or z you know right kind of beyonce what about beyonce so beyonce does uh a song live and when she does this performance live she'll have an intersection where she'll like shout out different women that she believes are trailblazers and last week she did not include lizzo's, but this week included and shouted out Lizzo. Okay. Grimes, a Canadian musician, went on Twitter and said, I love Lizzo, not saying I don't believe people when bad things happen, but I had dancers mistreated on my watch in ways I didn't find out about until way later. Maybe shit is bad, but loyalty matters to me. Lizzo was kind to me and others for a decade before she was cool.

See? Yeah. We live in a world where we just want to define people as good or bad. Right. You know. There's usually a lot of gray area. Yeah. And I think people are very quick to judge now.

And it's very scary. We live in a world where we no longer, like, it's like not even, and again, not speaking in generalities. We live in a world where it's just like if you have to apologize for something you're evil like you have you know what i'm saying like you shouldn't be perfect right don't ever need to apologize because if you do apologize it's a crazy right it's crazy we're living crazy times it's tough waters to navigate these days but i think this is a wait and see situation. But to your point,

has the court of public opinion already made a decision? Will that impact some of Lizzo's fans, right? If some of Lizzo's fans have said, I believe these allegations, I don't care to listen to anything more and to find out if they're true or not. And if they've decided to not be her fan,

that's the gamble you take when you're a public figure and when a lot of your whole career is based off of public image. It's not easy to be a star. Now, it should be easy to treat people nice, but looking at the bigger picture, what you're talking about, Nick, is if Ryan Reynolds had a bad day and now that's blown up in a public forum, that's probably not fair. It's not easy to be a public figure because you kind of always have to be on your best behavior. But it depends what we're talking about. Is it that you didn't say hi to someone when they try to wave to you when you're crossing the street? Or is it that you

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Well, I thought this was a great episode. I enjoyed it. She didn't pick Xavier, which I was completely wrong. Oh, you were wrong. Okay. I thought she's gonna end up with Xavier. Oh, you did? Yeah, that was my prediction as late as last week.

Okay, so I did not think that and I was actually shocked when she chose him over Aaron B. Why? I don't see the Aaron B at all. Here's what I'll say. I don't see a ton of chemistry with either of them, but I saw more chemistry with Aaron. But after this episode, with that whole conversation with her and xavier i thought she made the right decision charity handed herself impeccably yeah when it came to that conversation it was like i think when charity was casted as the bachelorette

i said something or i really hope the producers cast someone that has cheated on their girlfriend in the past that she really likes and she is forced to face this dilemma, which it came out. This was the episode that happened. Right. I almost felt like the show did a bad job. I felt like this could have been a bigger story and made more of a thing throughout the season rather than like 10 minutes over the entire season almost you know what i'm saying it kind of like almost came and went in a way

right also did did xavier lie to her earlier in the season because i'm 98 sure that this came up on his first one-on-one about infidelity. Clearly, the producers knew that he had cheated through conversations they had with him in casting. So it wasn't a coincidence that it came up when it did. But do we know what Xavier said in his first one-on-one? Because she talked about infidelity and how important it was. And I thought she asked him point blank if he had ever cheated. And there wasn't a denial, that's for sure. But there certainly wasn't this that we're hearing on this date, which is he had very down a long road and he's in the final four and they're at fantasy suites now and they've made it through hometowns.

And now this bomb is dropped on her. You know, had she known the extent of this earlier, she probably would have sent him home. So I was thinking that as well. You know, on one hand, to your point, you could have woven it in throughout the season and made it more of a storyline. But by having this bomb drop now, the stakes are high. I disagree. Okay. I think the truth of this episode is that Xavier sent himself home. Here's the thing. On one hand, I appreciate

that he came forth with this. I also didn't think he handled it in the right way. But also... What do you think he got wrong? And I guess charity pulled some of it out of him. But at the beginning, he basically was like, so I cheated in the past. And I know this is a trigger for you. Period. End of story. And I was waiting for the details around it. Right.

Like, why did he cheat? What did he learn from that? What was the full picture? Now, I don't know what charity's mindset is. My mindset personally, myself, is once a cheater, always a cheater. So if I heard that someone cheated, I would be done. Like the conversation wouldn't matter,

but I think that the conversation could have gone better where she was really trying to pull teeth and yank this information out of him. Gotcha. So I pulled up there when they went on the one-on-one date in Washington. Charity said that Xavier reminded her of her ex. So that was interesting. And then at dinner, Charity brought up previous relationships, asked if he's ever been afraid to be in a relationship. He said his fear is giving all of himself and not having that be reciprocated. He asked what she's most afraid of and she said infidelity. And then he said that

she will get complete honesty from him and he will do anything for his partner. So she didn't ask him if he had cheated? No, I believe then he talked about his mom having MS and then we got into a different conversation. Okay. Now that makes sense that he was like, okay, noted. Let me think about this. How do I bring this up? Right. I mean, listen, you made a point. I thought about this yesterday and it's something I don't think a lot of people think about when watching these type of shows is that say what you want about Xavier and cheating. He didn't have to expose this truth on national television and put himself out there and label himself as a cheater. Totally. That, he didn't have to do that. Right. So he deserves some credit for holding himself accountable and be willing to say, hey, this is a wrong thing.

I'm not proud of myself. I shouldn't have done this. But like, I mean, if you go back and play the tape of Xavier throughout, you know, I always thought Xavier was her number one. And it was an interesting

kind of storyline of like Xavier reminding her of past past exes the storyline of the charity has always been i've been cheated on the past i've put up with a lot of bullshit i don't want to i don't want to put up with it again and then here we are in the season charity has been drawn to what seems like the pretty boys the guys who while you may not know very much could be fuck boys or come across as fuck boys or even identify themselves as fuck boys or she seems to have been the most attracted to these types of men and then xavier like it was just kind of funny the past three weeks where i we kind of joked how he was just always like oddly advocating for the other men

you know just like on the group dates be like yeah man like aaron should totally get this rose you know it's like man so and so such a great guy and i'm all for being a good sport and i'm all for like you know not succumbing to the drama and rising above but like xavier was kind of going above above and beyond that to the point where it sure seemed like maybe he realized that charity liked him more than he liked her. What seemed to be like a joke of like Xavier just like clearly trying to get Charity to pick other guys. It sure seemed like in this episode, I mean, she was giving him every chance to get out of this. She wanted to go to the fantasy suite with him.

I don't fault Charity for wanting to hear him out. Right. To not just simply say, all right, well, I've been cheated on. I made this promise to myself. You cheated. I'm done. My favorite question Charity asked him was, what work have you done on yourself to

let yourself know that you won't do this type of behavior in the future? Because that's what it's all about. We all make mistakes. Some worse mistakes than others you know like i don't know how old is xavier in his early 30s late 20s i don't know he could have done this in his at 21 or something and who knows when he did it but like he said it people can change she asked she was like was this your last relationship i'm just saying i just love the question i love that she wasn't like immediately fuck fuck you, you're done. She was willing to see if he had learned.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't think that's Charity not listening to her God. And credit to his honesty, but it was this clear, it came across, unfortunately for Xavier, it came across to him that cheating is not a non-negotiable for him. When he was making that weird comment,

it's like marriage, engagement. He was basically saying without saying it, like cheating on your girlfriend, I mean, it's not good. Exactly. But it's not the same as cheating on your wife. And there are people out there like myself who think there's no different. Exactly. Cheating is cheating. So that's what I'm getting at is I appreciate that he came forward with this. And, you know, I guess unless you decide to be a dishonest person, once you do have this in your past that you cheated on a very serious girlfriend, you at a certain point are going to have to reveal that to whoever you're dating, whether you're on a reality show or not. Yeah.

And to your point, you probably knew when do I reveal this? There's never a good time. If you revealed it earlier, would he have been sent home earlier? If he reveals it now, does it seem like he had been hiding something? That's what I'm saying. When I say I disagree, I don't think he would have, right?

You think if he said it earlier. I think if he said it earlier, she wouldn't have pressed him so much or she wouldn't have been allowed to oppress him so much. They would have been like, let's... Right. Because she liked him. Right.

And so my guess is that could have been a longer story. Right. It could have been like, well, that's something I want you to think about. You know, how have you worked on herself when they would have tabled that question for later, as opposed to having that question all in the same conversation? That's that's what I think would have happened. Right. And I do think I agree with you 100 percent, which is it was the way in which he spoke about it that I think Charity was really trying to hear and trying to listen and trying to learn. But he never flat out said, I cheated in the past.

I've always regretted it. I've learned now that's absolutely not okay. Never okay. I've learned from it. I've become a better man. I'll never do it again. Yeah. He didn't say that.

He did not say that. He didn't say regardless of whatever happens between you and I, Charity, I just want you to know that that experience changed me and I was disgusted with my actions and I hurt someone that I claim to love. And regardless of how I felt about her in that moment, I just know that that experience was so not only traumatic for her, but for myself and my character. And no matter what happens between us, no matter where our relationship goes, I promise you that I will never do that to anyone regardless of what happens

because it's become a non-negotiable for me. I will no longer do that. And you're right. He absolutely didn't say that. He didn't really make sense at that point, which to me tells me he thought he was going home the whole time and so did the show, which is why Aaron got flown out there.

It is not because they think that something is going on with Aaron and charity. I can't speak to charity's feelings about Aaron, but I, in my experience and for all the leads I have talked to the idea that you'd be down to your final four and send someone home and actually be torn is completely unfathomable for me. You are, you kind of know what you're doing at that point.

It is a tough decision and you are sad and you feel bad. The idea that she is actually, she's not entertaining this idea. This whole cliffhanger they left us on to me, it's silly. Not only is it silly, imagine a world in which Charity actually brought him back. Imagine how nuts that would be. Let's assume she doesn't pick Aaron because I

don't think she picks Aaron. How nuts would that be for whoever she does pick? If Dotton or Joey are engaged to charity at this point, imagine watching that back. Imagine the selfishness that it would require charity to not consider Dotton's or Joey's feelings at this point I mean at this point in the season and we saw it with Clayton right it there always becomes a point in the season where the lead has to be very careful to not just make this whole show about their love journey right they have to realize that it's other people's love journey as well and that usually happens when it's down to the final four when feelings become really intense. It's not just about them. Again, we experienced that with Clayton, him being like, well, I'm the bachelor and I can kind of, you know, this is my love

journey. And then he got real messy and it was like, yeah, but you didn't give a fuck about anyone else's feelings and how your journey impacted anyone else. So if Charity brings back Erin after she's had two overnight dates and saying i love you to both of these men which when ben was the bachelor was like horrifying that he could say i love you to two people and clayton the same thing and imagine the challenges and the difficulty that would come from dotan or joey sitting next to charity watching the season being like you brought him back and like had an overnight date with him after you said you loved me? Not to mention, I don't know what happened in the fantasy suite, but it would be nuts.

And I don't think she's going to do that. I just think that at the end of the day, in reality, Xavier was her favorite. I think the show knew that Xavier had this secret. Xavier deep down wasn't really feeling it with Charity and he didn't know how to get out of it. And so he dropped this cheating bomb on her and they brought out Aaron to give Charity basically like a validation boost. He flew all the way out to chase her and let her know that he's still thinking about her. like just kind of giving her a bump because it feels good to have it would make me feel good to have someone fly out all the way from you know san diego to fiji but i don't think this is anything to do with her relationship i don't think she was missing aaron i don't think she's thinking about aaron in that way i think she's totally content on her two options that she has and that she sent her aaron home for a reason and i just think they flew him out there because and the

fact that Xavier went first. As soon as Xavier had the first fantasy suite, I was like, oh, I'm wrong. He doesn't win because I've never seen the winner have the first fantasy suite. Right. And I think it was the fact that he was first, Aaron's flying out. I think the show knew all along. And I think once he started saying, I cheated on someone else, Charity was giving him all... She was giving him the answers to all the whole test. She was like, here's the answer to the test. Here you go. Just say these words. And he was like, I'm going to give you a different

answer. Right. 100%. I think you're right because I think she gave herself away of how much she likes him because even when he was giving her these phrases of, I don't know, I'm going to need tonight to figure out how I feel about you. Her response was not, I'm sorry, why do you not know? The responses she was giving us in the ITM saying, you don't need to know how you feel about me in the bedroom. That was not what she was telling him to his face. What she was saying in that moment was, okay, okay. She was kind of just like, whatever you need to convince you. And then even after he left and she was talking about having Dotton and Joey still there, it wasn't these are the connections that I was always passionate about. It was almost like all fingers crossed that they want to propose. Like that was the kind of almost energy it was giving. And I was like, oh, she's really she was kind of all in was Xavier. Yeah. And like, I feel for Charity in that regard. And again, it's hard being the lead. You're drawn to who you're most physically attracted to. You're drawn to your type. And if Xavier was her type, I couldn't imagine finding out, you know, when you

get to that point, you pretty much have your decision made or close to, and to find out something about your favorite person. I don't know if that was, I don't know if Xavier was her favorite, but if it was, I'd be demoralized. And so again, I thought Charity did such a great job of fighting what she wanted. Xavier talks so much about his heart and her head. It was clear that Charity's head was like, no. I mean, God, it got so bad that I was like, Charity, you gotta send him home. I mean, God, it was got, it got so bad that I was

like, Cherry, you got to send him home. I was like yelling at the TV. You got, you can't keep him. You have to send him home. He's asking you to send him home. Please send him home. And she did. We've all been through that struggle. We've all been through that, like, but you don't, I don't want to, but you want to give them hope and you want to believe that people can change. And it's, it's such a tricky thing to have more hope for someone than they have for themselves, you know, or to want to believe or to not listen to what they're actually saying, but to actually interpret it a different way. We do that all the time. She almost started doing that where she was like answering his questions, but she caught herself and then like appropriately

held him accountable. And it was really great to see. Yes. But, you know. No, I applaud her. She was working through it in her own head. You know, nobody says that you find out a piece of information, you go, okay, that's wrong. I'm done. Yeah.

She asked the right questions. I totally agree with you that this was all the producer's magic. I think that they knew that he had this secret. I think they probably told him not to reveal it earlier. And I think when they knew he was making it towards the end, they knew that he was going to reveal it. They probably pushed him to reveal it. And then I think they brought Aaron back.

And I'm going to be even more cynical than you. I don't think they brought Aaron back to give her a boost. I think they just brought it back because it's good drama and was a good tease and was a good promo. When I watch, I think it's Dotton all the way. And that's what I thought from the beginning. I don't know anything. I thought Dotton was getting that classic runner up at it where it was just too much validation.

I mean, every date, even every beat of this date was just them talking about how great they are. Their only concern is they have no concern. Right. Honestly, that's great. Maybe that's why they had to stir up more drama because it was so obvious that she wants to be with him. And I also really believe that I believe her and Joey, but I believe her and Dotton a lot more.

I don't believe her. Also, I'm glad that you brought up that she said, I love you to both because so I now watch with my fiance, but he did not watch a single episode of The Bachelor until less than two years ago. So he doesn't have this knowledge of Bachelor history. And I was trying to explain to him, like, Michael, you don't know how big of a deal it is that she said, I love you. She's not supposed to say I love you to anyone, let alone two people. And for him, he's just like, oh, you know, watching. I'm like, you don't even't even know years ago this would have been such big news that she said i love you to two people yeah no it was huge back and it would be really interesting whoever she doesn't end up with how they handle the breakup because usually

and granted we've only really seen this it has another bachelorette said it because when a bachelor says it it's the end of the fucking world. Right. Right. Ben Higgins, like arguably the most popular and likable bachelor ever got some major heat. Even Ben Higgins went through a really tough couple of weeks when that happened. Certainly we all know Clayton did it, but it doesn't seem to be as big of a deal. No. Of course, I don't know. It hasn't. Actually, we don't know.

I don't know if it'll be a big deal. Right. I don't know how we were recording this before it airs right i wonder if bachelor nation will no i'm curious to have an issue with it now granted we don't really know yet because it really comes down to how the runner-up feels about it will the runner-up joey you know be like will you like what about all that love talk you know like you said you loved me and i was on the you know in the past the person who doesn't win or be you know get validated with the final rose is usually like well when you say i was under the impression you can't say this you said this and so that made me feel manipulated michelle said i love you to both nate Brandon. Yeah, it'll be

interesting. Well, it'll also be interesting. Let's say, again, I don't know anything. Some seasons I do, this I do not, because I'm enjoying watching as a fan. Let's say Dotton wins, and then he watches back the season. And is he going to be upset that she told Joey that she loves him? Oh my right right yes and again like i know like the the the episode ended with this big like oh my god what is she going to do my i'm almost certain it's going to open up with her validating aaron again and like oh my god i have question and i have thought about you and you're the greatest and i was falling in love with you and maybe i still am but at the end of of the day, I just had two overnights. And because of those overnights, the relationships are so far ahead.

And apparently I can't get you on over. It'll be some version of that. And ultimately, he'll get a very gracious goodbye and probably set him up for paradise. Also, not to mention prediction. Aaron does paradise. I mean, if you're casting for Paradise you want someone who speaks their mind for every situation which Aaron does and as much as he has annoyed me throughout the season I found him very endearing you could tell he was very nervous it took a lot for him to do what

he did to come back and do that took some guts and I actually give really sincere and you know very much led to believe that his actions weren't crazy. I'm certain of that. I can say that with confidence. Well, I also would imagine this wasn't his idea, right?

If you're a contestant on a show, you don't think, oh, could I fly back to Phoenix? Oh, and it was actually bullshit what the show did to him when they made him go up to the front desk and ask for her room number and made him sound like some sort of stalker. They didn't have to do that. Just fucking let him know where she is right i have her like they really they really did him dirty there when he showed up to like the front desk do you know where she is oh no we don't give any guest information like he didn't even say charity lawson too i was like this is so staged like this random person why did they do that to him with production so mean like he didn't show up by himself. He didn't pay for his plane ticket by himself. So mean for them to do that to him.

Did you see that he had a samurai sword? No. In his apartment, in the background. Aaron had a samurai sword? Yep, and it reminded me of another very famous sweet person on reality TV. Love is Blind. That also had a samurai sword. What's his name again?

Zach. Zach from Love is Blind. They should meet Samurai Sword. What's his name again? Zach. Zach from Love is Blind. They should meet up. Oh, right. Compare Samurai Sword notes. He had his own jersey too. But here's what's crazy about Aaron showing up more than anything. That means that Xavier, and we saw a sneak peek of next week's Men's Tell All.

And we saw Xavier is an attendance of Men Tell All. And so usually the final three is not there. So instead of Xavier being after the final rose and not there so instead of xavier being at the after the final rose and having this kind of dramatic one-on-one with charity and and so now they replace xavier who's not very talkative he's conflict adverse and they replaced aaron who's pro-conflict who will speak up and get in any argument that has nothing to do with him they took him out of tell-all and then placed him with Xavier, which just from a production standpoint seems like an interesting choice

on their part. Only to try to pitch us a love story that no one ever really believed. I think it was the cheating bombshell. I think that is where this all came from. I think that created a lot of drama towards the end of the season. No, I know. But I'm just saying, Aaron's relationship with Char with charity to me, it's like I'm laughing through the whole setup because like there's no stakes here. Does anyone actually think

this is going to turn into anything? I don't. It's the, they've had some pointless cliffhangers. This is up there. And also, I just think Aaron would be a better get for Paradise. Oh, by the way, I was going to say Paradise. So if Aaron's in Paradise, he would strike me as someone who could get engaged in Paradise. He's an all-in kind of guy. He was in love with Charity for absolutely no reason. And I mean by no reason, I mean not because Charity isn't worth... He didn't know know charity. He had one first date and then kind of nothing else. If they had a connection, they never showed it.

So clearly he can get sucked in pretty easily. Now imagine Aaron, who if he went to Paradise, has already gone and finished. He's a few weeks removed. He could be engaged right now. And now imagine tonight going back and watching this episode where he's coming back and flying from like San Diego to Fiji to confess his still love for charity and he could be engaged

to someone else in this very moment. Nuts. Yeah. Poor whoever they are. Right. Not a setup for success if they're... Right. Good luck explaining that one.

Well, his explanation is the producers made me do it. Yeah, probably. Right? That would be my explanation. Yeah. So who do you think is going to win? Dotton.

Okay. I just never really bought her and Joey. I'm not seeing the passion. I'm not from... I think there's a lot of mutual respect there. I think they carry about each other as people. I saw her intensity with Xavier. I see it with Dotton

I don't think Charity's into Joey I think they're both two nice people Who are being nice with each other And Joey's easy to get along with He's good at having conversation But I was wrong about Xavier So you know I love her and Dotton

I think they're so great together The way he speaks is I like how he talks I love her and Dotton. I think they're so great together. The way he speaks is, I like how he talks. In a sense that he allowed himself to immerse himself in this world. But he's practical about it. He's just like, listen, this is all I can learn about you. And everything I learned is great. And this is how I feel.

And we'll see where it goes. But I'm going to kind of give it my all. And it's such a, that's the way to go about it. It's like, you can both allow yourself to kind of give into this experience and not completely lose all sense of reality. You know, you can say, hey, listen, like this is working for me. These are genuine feelings. And like, we'll just figure out the rest as it goes, but I'm committed to you. And there's going to be some sacrifices along the way. But as it stands now, I think you're amazing. And I love you. And you're great.

And we're going to end up, you know, he's just a joy to watch. Yes. And I also loved the hometown. I love charity with his family. Oh, his family was great. All the families were really great. I really enjoyed it. It was good hometowns.

Yeah. The families generally step up. Yeah. And I actually liked Aaron's family more than I liked Aaron. But which made me feel better about Aaron. So done. Done. Done. That I actually liked Aaron's family more than I liked Aaron, but which made me feel better about Aaron. So, done. Done.

That's where our money is. All right. Well, I know you got to go. I got to go as well. Elizabeth, it's always just great having you. Let's make it more of a regular thing. Let's do it. All right.

I can't. Seriously, though. And I love that we got to talk more than Bachelor this time. Oh, well, it's now reality recap. Yeah. You know, listen, we, the Bachelor was in our off season for I don't know how long. We obviously immersed ourselves into other reality TV stuff,

other pop culture stuff. We're big Vanderpump fans over here in this household. And so, you know, while we still love The Bachelor, there's just other things that we always talk about. So we're more than just

one-stop destination here at The Wild Files. I love it. Well, thanks for listening, guys. Bobby Burke from Queer Eye is with us on Thursday's episode of Going Deeper. It'll be so fun to talk with Bobby about his all-new project. Bobby's got a book coming out.

Obviously, he's a big fan of pop culture. We'll get into all the other topics we didn't get to talk about today with Elizabeth. Elizabeth, please let our audience know all the great things you're working on. So you can find all my work at Variety.com and in Variety Magazine. And my social handles for everything is at EWagmeister. Amazing. Well, make sure to follow Elizabeth. We love her.

We love her on all the episodes. Check all her great content out. Don't forget to send those questions at AskNickAtTheVileFiles.com. For all things Ask Nick, texting office hours, we have, again, Bobby on Thursday's episode of Going Deeper. Go back and check out Ask Nick. That dropped on Monday. We have great content available to on Thursday's episode of Going Deeper. Go back and check out Ask Nick that dropped on Monday. We have great content available to you on Vile Files Plus, all the

available update specials, the Vanderpump recaps, that and so much more. We'll see you back on Thursday. Bye.