The Viall Files - E623 Going Deeper - Rachel Speaks Plus Ciara Miller and Mya Allen, Bethenny Frankel, and Michael Oher’s Conservatorship

Episode Date: August 17, 2023

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper Edition! At the beginning of the episode, we sit down to talk about Rachel’s first interview since Scandoval, and what she had to share about why she made her decisions and the growth she’s had since. Then, we are joined by Ciara Miller and Maya Allen from Summer House to talk about their time filming, what they thought about Tom Schwartz and Tom Sandoval on Winter House, their friendship, and their dating lives. We also have a Texting Office Hours caller who is hoping to ask a guy out on a date - but just saw that he unmatched her on Hinge.  “I would rather be alone than be uncomfortable.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store. Android User? Listen here: https://www.onamp.com/  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Drizly - Drizly is the most convenient way to buy beer, wine, and spirits, with delivery to your door when you want it. Download the Drizly app or go to https://www.Drizly.com   Beis - Right now, BÉIS is offering our listeners 15% off your first purchase by visiting https://www.BEISTRAVEL.com/VIALL   Sundays For Dogs - We worked out a special deal for our dog-loving listeners. Get 35% off your first order of Sundays. Go to https://www.SundaysForDogs.com/VIALL or use code VIALL at checkout. Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @ciaramiller___ @myallen @alison.vandam @dereklanerussell @genevievegoodman

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What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Vile Files Going Deeper edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by the household of Allie, Genevieve, and Derek. Amanda is... Where? She should be back tomorrow. She's back tomorrow? Yeah.

Oh, wow. I believe she flies back either today or tomorrow. That's all the Amanda stans. Fear not. She'll be back with us next week. Lots to get into. We have a fantastic episode for you. Sierra and Maya from Summer House are with us for Going Deeper.

Just a wonderful pair. Just really enjoyed our chat. Fun, energetic. We talk, obviously, dating, relationships, their time on Summer House, reality TV a little bit. Really enjoyed the conversation with the both of them. Before we get into our conversation with Sierra and Maya, Rachel finally spoke. Finally speaks. Rachel speaks. She breaks her silence. No secret, obviously, we would love to have Rachel on this show. We

certainly made overtures. We didn't really know who to get a hold of. And now we know that actually it was quote unquote Rachel's team who reached out to Bethany because I will say Rachel's done a good job of kind of being off the grid, but I'm not surprised. You know, we obviously were very critical at times of Rachel. We certainly tried to be objective, but it's not shocking to me that she might not have felt super comfortable in this atmosphere. You know, we would have liked to try to make it comfortable, but obviously we wanted to be objective, which is ironic. You know, she did Bethany Frankel's, right? So Bethany, who currently is making a lot of noise when it comes to her plight, her

campaign, her... Yeah, campaigning for reality stars to basically be paid more. Bethany's cause i'll get into my thoughts in a second but ironically as you put it it started off with breath that he being like i didn't really watch vanderpump i've seen some clips i don't know what the big deal is blah blah blah i was like oh my god it's howie mendel 2.0 like what the fuck so going in i posted this um yesterday prior to listening to the interview, which was kind of what I hoped I would hear and what I was afraid to hear. And what I hoped I would hear is obviously accountability from Rachel.

about this experience, how it affected her, what she's been working on, what she realized about herself, what she is doing or has done to take accountability, not only now and in the past, but going forward, how does she hope to avoid this type of behavior, et cetera, et cetera. What I didn't want to see is obviously finger pointing, blaming others. And what I feared, which unfortunately, I think my fears came to fruition, was that by doing Bethany's, it would become more about Bethany's cause about reality TV and the landscape of reality TV and less about Rachel. I don't fault Bethany for wanting it. And I've never met Bethany. I'd love to get Bethany on this show to talk about her cause. I mean, listen, if you have a big guest, we would love to have Rachel on. Obviously that episode would have done well. I don't fault

Bethany for wanting to have her on. But it almost seemed like it was using Rachel for Bethany's cause to make it more about what Bethany wanted to talk about, which is the landscape of reality TV, et cetera, et cetera. And that's what it ended up being. The first 20 minutes, it was a lot of what you would hope, Rachel talking about therapy, kind of making these like, hey, I just want to say sorry for triggering all the people the evil reality TV world of producers, it just came across as making excuses for her behavior. And it got into her talking about whether she was best friends or just acquaintances with ariana to me that's just like fucking semantics or the comments about looking up to her peers in vanderpump and some and that came across as an excuse it came across as a justification for her actions and even if it's true i just want to like rachel did to say listen i i want to focus on the healing i have really spent a lot of time doing i want to focus on my choices and i don't I want to focus on the healing I have really spent a lot of time doing. I want to

focus on my choices and I don't really want to get into reality TV and how that affected my choices. I mean, both things can be true. It's not as if I necessarily think Rachel was lying when talking about her perception of how being involved in the show affected her and how it played into her decisions, but it just comes across poorly. Bethany was just like, she mentioned, oh, what's Vanderpump? There's a lot of infidelity. You almost get rewarded for cheating, et cetera, et cetera. And Rachel's like, yeah, totally. And now the show's just running to the bank, so to speak. Again, that might all be true, but as far as Rachel goes, it just comes across as making excuses. At the end of the day, you had an affair with someone who was in a relationship, and whether you think that they were the most in love couple or not, or they had slowly become

roommates over time, and the love was less there than before, that doesn't fucking matter. Maybe Tom Sandoval made some statements to Raquel that made her believe something that wasn't true. But when Rachel said, I never would have done it if I thought they were essentially closer than they were. What? To me, it's like after going through this intense therapy, I would have loved to say, looking back, there was just no excuse for what I did. I wish I would never have done that. I would have loved to say, looking back, there was just no excuse for what I did. I wish I would never have done that. I don't really care if Ariana and Tom hated each other or they were super in love. They were in a committed relationship and it was wrong for me to

do that. And because she's being interviewed by Bethany, who is on this kind of campaign trail about reality TV, it just kind of came across as Rachel making excuses. The second half of part one was just all about reality TV and why it's unfair and why it's essentially not her fault. I felt like listening to the first 20 minutes, it was like, okay, Rachel, all right. She's doing a lot of things. She seems contrite. She's working on herself. And it feels like the conversation Rachel and Bethany had on the second half of part one discredited everything she said in the first half. that she got this interview because she used Rachel as an example of someone who had been kind of like played by production and used by production to have a huge payday. So those are automatically going to be linked because that's how they got this interview. And also with the

Ariana best friend thing, to me, I interpreted her bringing that up less so as an excuse for why she had the affair. I agree with you. I think it was wild that she said, I wouldn't have done this if I thought that they had longevity. That's a weird excuse. But I think with the Ariana best friend, I think the reason she brought that up is because at the reunion, people were trying to point out,

Andy Cohen, Rachel, were trying to point out everyone other than Katie has had indiscretions, infidelity, moments, affairs, all these sins, if you will. And Lala screamed across the floor, I wasn't your best friend, ho. Everybody was utilizing her best friendship with Ariana as

the reason why this affair was so damning and theirs wasn't. I don't agree with Lala's take there. And yes, there's no question that obviously things were amplified and there's no question that people were capitalizing on this scandal. I'm focused on Raquel. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is Raquel's first time speaking up. And I do think people can be contrite when it comes to infidelity. I just didn't want to have those lines blurred between Rachel having sex and cheating on someone for several months. And just, they were friends. Best friends, friends. They were hanging out. She talked about how Ariana defended her. They were spending a lot of time together. They were friends. She trusted her. like we're friends are you guys my best friends not necessarily you know are we are you you're the first people i talk to about every problem but like if you i don't you know i don't know what the equivalent is i slept with natalie sure

you know it would be yeah it would like devastating and just because you're not my best friend it's to me that's like a semantic argument and it just waters down any sense of contrition in terms of feeling bad because it was a lot of, I did this, I'm sorry, I want to take accountability, but let's consider this. Let's consider that. This is why it isn't totally my fault. Yeah. And the first kind of schism I would say in the interview is towards the beginning where Bethany is pointing out she calls Raquel a persona, a previous persona. The Bethany stuff of it all.

Listen, I'm a cynic. If you haven't noticed on the show by listening to me. Say it isn't so. I've never met Bethany. I've been a fan of Bethany from afar. Comes to reality TV. She's rightfully often referred to as a legend, iconic character. She's been in the spotlight for 15 years. She's had immense success in this world.

And I'm sorry, I just find the timing of this cause of her to be disingenuous. And again, I'd love to talk with Bethany about it, but it is as hard for me to take this seriously for Bethany as she's kind of sitting in her ivory tower on her millions of dollars that she's made in her businesses and how she's capitalized. There recently have been reports that not too long ago, Bethany pitched a reality TV show to Bravo, which was rejected. That shit happens all the time. I'd be willing to bet Bethany has probably pitched several ideas. And most pitches are not picked up. So it's just hard for me. Why is Bethany pitching to Bravo?

Like, how do you she go from being part of this network and this franchise for 15 years and then like this, change her tune? Again, to be clear, when we're having conversations about reality TV and filming it and kind of right or wrong, I don't think there ever can be enough work in terms of trying to protect reality TV contestants and their mental health through giving them immense access to therapy, prepping them in terms of what they can expect after they're on TV and being in the limelight and how to protect their mental health through engaging with social media and fans. So then what did you think about her point, Bethany's point that Bravo or Vanderpump has

capitalized off of this affair, but as such, Raquel herself wasn't able to afford going to a mental health facility. She had to rely on her parents. If she hadn't had wealthy parents. Criticism. If you're talking about the landscape in general, I think it's fucked up that Bravo wasn't paying for Rachel's mental health. And I don't think it should have been like a one-off situation where they had a meeting and be like, she took an L for us. We should pay for her health. What I mean is I think policies should be in place for every network to make the appropriate

mental health that is needed for their people. And they should be taking care of that. Whether it's Bravo, whether it's ABC Disney, whether it's anyone, that's my personal belief. I think they should have taken care of that. Again, I believe in personal accountability. It is hard for me to hear... Again, Rachel was having sex with someone's partner. That's her choice. She made that choice. And if she wants to say, well, I looked up to them and people were cheating. Well, okay. If that's your excuse, fine. But that comes across as naive and this desire to be famous. Where is the accountability in mine and Bethany's and Raquel's desire for attention to go on this show?

And when it comes to Bethany, what's really interesting is that when I think about whatever she's campaigning for, again, I think there's a cost to everything. So I feel like if I'm understanding correctly, a part of what Bethany is talking about is more fair compensation for reality TV stars, specifically on the front end. On The Bachelor, they pay the lead. It's real money, whether you think it's enough or not, but it's real fucking money. They don't pay the 25 to 30 contestants that go on the show for a chance to go on TV and a chance to have the opportunities that so many hope they get. To me, that's like front-end compensation, the actual pay. Then there's back-end compensation, things like getting a platform, social media. Obviously, when it comes

to actors, there's things like residuals and things like that, and that certainly could be part of the negotiation. But when it comes to negotiation, by definition, there is a give and take with everything. So like I mentioned in previous episodes, if they start compensating reality TV stars more on the front end, when in negotiations, they're going to take away things on the back end, which might include owning the platforms at which they are given from being on the show, like social media. When I was on the show of The Bachelor in the heyday, and many, I think, would argue that that was kind of the golden era to be on that show, Caitlin, Ben's season, JoJo, myself, all the way up to maybe Hannah Brown, Peter's season, in terms of the ability to go on the show, and if it was popular, getting a bunch of followers. When it was really Caitlin, JoJo, Ben, myself, that was a time where social media was really taking off and really evolving. When I was on Andy's season, Instagram stories didn't exist. There weren't swipe ups. Doing social media campaigns wasn't really a thing, not can't post at all because those contracts were so archaic. They had a hard time enforcing it. And so even though people were posting, but there was no mention of anything about campaigns and monetizing your platforms.

So that benefited people like me and Ben and Caitlin and Jojo, because there were just no rules around it. And so we were able to get these deals, make a ton of money. As these networks became aware of how this worked, they started implementing more rules. Now that you're under contract, you need to get certain approvals for this, or you can't do this and you can't do that. You know who benefited from it? People like me, people like Ben Higgins, people like Caitlin Bristow, people like JoJo. So on The Bachelor, you have a year window. You're the it kid, so to speak. You're on the show, you're coming off, you're the most recent contestants, You're the it kid, so to speak. You're on the show. You're coming off.

You're the most recent contestants. You're the most recent lead. Yada, yada. You're the most popular. And so you're going to get the best deals, right? And then the next season, when you have over two seasons, 60 new cast members, if it's 30 apiece, you're less of the cool kid. It's like car models. It's like, well, you are no longer the new and shiny object.

There's a new one on the lot. models. It's like, well, you are no longer the new and shiny object. There's a new one on the lot. But what happened when Warner Brothers started implementing these new rules saying, well, actually, in this year contract you're under, you have to get certain approvals. You can't do this. You can't do that. So those deals that would otherwise go to the cool new kids went to the old kids. So that really benefited people like myself and Caitlin and Ben, and not in any situation, but it just became, we were easier to work with. They didn't have to go through that new reality TV stars who, you know, might get more, better paychecks up front and might make a quick $30,000 for filming a season. And I don't know what they negotiate, but again, if they get that, they're going to have to give

something up. We were talking to Sierra and Maya and after the, we were recording, I was asking about it. And it's my understanding that in the Bravo contracts, they have what is referred to, I don't know officially, but referred to as the Bethany Frankel clause, which essentially is if you start a business as a result of going on a show, the franchise gets some sort of percentage of that. And like the Bachelor franchise, Bravo was like, wait, hold on. They started a business to get to this. Wait, we're not going to let them do that going forward, right? So it just seems

like Bethany, who's not going to be affected by this one way or the other, if this kind of snowballs and becomes a thing, Bethany won't be affected by this at all. The new people will be affected by this and they might get more things on the front end, but my guess is their ability to become a Bethany will be greatly reduced by all the kind of red tape and the handcuffs that they have. And so what will happen is, you know, the ability to become their big star and make the big bucks, so to speak, will be harder and harder for everyone. And yeah, more people on the front end will be compensated. So if you go on The Bachelor, let's say this is like a landscape through all of reality TV, maybe night one, the people who go on the show might make a quick 2000 bucks. Maybe it's

like, hey, $500 a day of filming and they're filming for a day. And so instead of making zero, now they make 500 bucks. Great. Well, on the back end, it's just going to be harder and harder, I think, because if these networks agree to X, they're going to ask for Y, so to speak. And I'm not saying what should be done or not. I'm just saying, I'm speaking from personal experience of the fallout of how these things seem to work. And I just have a hard time believing that Bethany is doing this because of some sort of altruistic cause that she's just worrying about the poor reality TV star. Well, and it's just like the scales have to be balanced at some end. So like you said, if suddenly we're pushing all this payment to the beginning, it's got to result in

a back end kind of, well, we want you to do a deal with these people because we get this kind of cut yeah because i just don't know where like the funding necessarily comes from the networks but just think back to like if you're negotiating keep in mind like all these reality tv stars including myself and bravo people like they are only offering their willingness to go on tv and be filmed and that vulnerability of being dramatic. And that is just, when you talk about supply and demand, the supply is essentially limitless in this kind of society of America that we have. You're not coming from a point of power when it comes to negotiation. So the negotiations are going to be about just kind of the bare minimums and just being fair and things like that. But that is going to allow these networks to say, well, if we give you this, you're going to have to give us that. Yeah. Media has become like such a franchise now.

It's not just the reality show. It's literally, you're thinking about it. It's the podcast. It's the live events. It's the deals. It's the social media. When you're signing up for a reality show, it's really the businesses, it's everything that's tied to it. It's become a franchise and that's the shape. If I'm a network executive, I would be like, yeah, let's fucking start paying them. And you know what? Every podcast that has started, everything they've done, we, because they wouldn't be able to start any of this without us, yeah, we'll pay them. But I want to own all that on the backend or I want a huge cut or I want to own that IP. I mean, if I wanted to be on TV, I wasn't thinking about podcasts. I wasn't thinking about deals when I'm on the show.

I was just like, this would be a really cool experience. And I don't know what's going to come of it. Maybe something really cool. But ultimately, it's just like a cool experience. Now, it's different on the Bravo side of things. When you have recurring seasons, you come back and things like that. And when they talked about on the podcast about the fix, the drug, we all love attention. You don't sign up for reality TV and agree to immerse yourself in a world that rewards drama, rewards scandal, knowing that full hat.

And then when you're part of that drama and scandal, act like it's evil and wrong. We are talking about reality TV and drama. act like it's evil and wrong. We are talking about reality TV and drama. If you're saying, well, you can't record a TV show that doesn't have drama and doesn't have this, like what do you have? What are you signing up for now? I mean, to give Bethany the benefit of the doubt, like I could see it starting from a place of mental health and then her baking in all of these financial issues and her thinking, I'll be kind of the headliner of this issue because I don't know that there is a new Bethany that would get the attention that she's bringing to this issue. Yeah. I don't know that a newbie could do that.

She's not going to feel like she's. I mean, that's to give her the benefit of the doubt. And then to go back to the podcast, I do agree that this felt like, you know, the Rachel part one, it felt like a vessel to speak about this on that end too I think something that I learned from you know that that whole like spiel and rant about this is her saying when the cameras are on you it feels 24 7 and it feels like the ship is or the train is going it'll never stop and so not to defend Rachel and what she did but I can imagine that like more than her feeling like she wanted attention from Tom and that he was like forbidden and, you know, like addictive that the moments between them, because up until March, no one knew, not even the cameras, that that must have felt like

the only real thing happening in her life. True. Yeah, that was like the biggest thing that I took away from that. He has to care about me because it's not for the show. Exactly. This has to be real because there's no cameras here. Yeah, that was like the biggest thing that I took away from that. And she's like, he has to care about me because it's not for the show. Exactly. This has to be real because there's no cameras here. Yeah, yeah. This is the only time the train has stopped.

This isn't get renewed for a next season. This is someone who actually, and she even said that, validates me, listens to me, gives me the space that I wanted. A good point. I'm just saying, what does it have to do with why she did what she did? Why is that an explanation? I mean, to me, it's like two separate conversations. And that's why as a fan, I wish Raquel, forget about we would have loved to have her. I'm just saying why the interview with Bethany, I think discredited Raquel, because I think it's two conversations. We can have a conversation about reality TV and what's

right or wrong. And there's certainly changes, I think, and there's improvements that can and should be made. I'm all for that, right? It's just these people, this is their lives. Katie Maloney, Ariana, they've been doing this for a decade. They've agreed to make their job part of their life. They're not the only people where their profession and their personal lives are blurred and it's just kind of one and the same. They have just chosen this incredibly unique profession, right? And so their life is their profession. Katie and Tom were married. They met on the show. They got married at a wedding on the show. They basically had a divorce on their show. They're going through healing on the show. Does it make it less real for them? Well, I think the point I'm making is like

she's given a bunch of reasons on this podcast and we've kind of been spending the last 20 minutes discrediting them. Like her saying, I never would have done it if Tom and Ariana weren't close. We were saying, that really doesn't matter. The point I'm making is Katie and Tom have been on the show for like their entire adult lives. Rachel, this happened so quickly for her because she tied herself to kind of one of the larger cast members, James, and then they got engaged. And then now this thing with Tom, it's blown up for her really quickly. And I think someone like her needs those off-camera moments. I think Katie is able to kind of navigate the

cameras and real life and make a marriage between them, whereas Rachel really isn't. And so this off-camera relationship with Tom, she gave a lot more importance to. The point I'm making is I think that's the reason and I think I realized that through this podcast. She did this because it was off-camera and it was secret and she really needed reality during this filming experience more than anyone else that I've ever seen on reality TV.

This is, to me me a really terrible excuse Well for sure Defending I'm not defending her by making it. Okay. It's just it's interesting to kind of get into someone's brain Yeah, and understand like what might have clicked for them why they wanted Tom I mean Tom has that's not an excuse that we're not he's been on the show for ten years I mean, Tom has, that's not an excuse that works for Tom because he's been on the show for 10 years. Raquel's been on it for how long? Not 10.

Not 10, but I. I thought she joined in like season five or something. She's an adult. But she was so minor until, like she wasn't followed around in all aspects of her life until. Sure, but like. Probably is it just Rachel, who her whole life, even she mentioned she, you know, was voluminous to admit just the need for validation. Then she was in the pageant world, which obviously kind of compounds that, you know, that's a validation type of world. And then, you know, she goes to reality TV and granted she's new. And basically this is all about like some inner child and trauma or whatever she experienced her child in this need for validation, this being addicted to the idea of love rather than... Fine. But she still went on the show,

and she still did this for validation and attention, and maybe this was the wrong atmosphere for her. But whose fault is that? We seem to be wanting to associate blame with why Rachel even found herself on this show. And at the end of the day, honest question, as people who haven't been on reality TV and who have watched this show. And at the end of the day, honest question is people who haven't been on reality TV and who have watched this show, what is a network of supposed to do to qualify who is right for this type of show? They do a psych test to make sure, you know, and I don't know if it's a standardized test between company to company, and I don't know what their parameters are. You know, hopefully they have some high parameters. Are they supposed to

cast people who don't have, you know, hopefully they have some high parameters. Are they supposed to cast people who don't have, you know, past demons or? I don't think it's Bravo's fault per se. And I don't think in adding this context and kind of just trying to understand Rachel's brain a little bit more, it's again, it's not us giving her a pass. It's not us putting all the blame on Bravo. It's not us saying it's OK because it's not. It's just like little tidbits of her that came out in this interview that maybe we haven't been able to see on the screen in the Raquel that we knew in the Vanderpump world. I guess it's just to me, I feel like she said a lot of what I felt like meaningful things in the top half of the interview. And then the second half of part one kind of discredited everything she said. And it sounded like she was pointing the

finger. Granted, Bethany brought up the video, the FaceTime video. Fucked up that Tom recorded it without Rachel's permission. That's fucked. It got into the weeds. And it just, to me, felt like a lot of, at the end of the day, we got as many excuses, if not more excuses than we got statements of accountability. What you're kind of pointing at is that Rachel has been off the grid. She's been removed from filming. She's been in a facility. She's been isolated. And it would have been really nice in this podcast to just focus on her experience, kind of remove the noise of the show and just focus what she's done, her accountability. And we kind of get that- And get into it. I would like to know the history of Rachel,

what she really discovered. And again, she doesn't have to share that if she doesn't want to if that's a personal journey that's fine for her but as a fan going on a show to have some sort of tell-all that's what i was hoping to hear but it came across as a couple of like all right well make sure you say this make sure you acknowledge this and make this statement but what she really wanted to talk about it seemed like why it was unfair, why she was wronged, why how the producers took advantage of her, et cetera, et cetera. It's like no one made you cheat. You know, no one made you lie about this. And you can come up with all the excuses you want. But it makes me believe less that you are really willing to, you know,

move forward with like doing the right thing i don't know you know but i guess we'll see what part two has to hold too interested anyway it was it was interesting i want to believe that bethany is uh doing it for the right reasons so to speak it's i'm a skeptic the timing is off and um i guess it just didn't land for me. But curious what you guys think. It's a certainly interesting conversation. Don't forget, we have another episode of Better Date Than Never live tonight at 9 p.m. Eastern. Certain to be wild and fun. And we're sharing our relationship stories, sharing best practice, sharing our past experiences.

It's a ton of fun. Don't forget, we have an update special dropping tomorrow behind Vile Files Plus. For those of you who love the updates, there are so many available to you now behind Vile Files Plus. Just go to vilefiles.com to sign up. It's free to sign up. All right, let's get to Sierra and Maya. Drizzly is here to be your partner in parties, meaning that they are here to help you take the grunt work out of the get-together

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Thanks for having us. Thanks for coming. How are your hearts? Ooh, heavy. We start heavy. This is how we lead off every show. And now I just find it fun because everyone just seems to be slightly triggered. How much time do you have?

Are you talking family, relationships, personal? We talk all of the above, Sierra. But how are you, ladies? Good. I mean, first two, three times in LA. I feel like, you know. You said that two or three times. Which one is it?

Two or three times. I don't even remember, but I feel like not enough to like even really remember. I feel like now I'm such a New York City girl when I'm kind of not only been there for two years. But yeah, I know. I know L.A. a little bit better than you. But also I almost moved to L.A. and then I was like, not not with the traffic. What happened? Well, OK, so I was with an ex at the time.

We came out, did the whole tour of it, whatever, whatever. I was like, I'm not ready to make the plunge My family's in Boston. I didn't want to be that far from them and I can't imagine like sitting in the car I'm an angry driver And I was just like and feel your rage driving He sat in that car for like 10 minutes not moving just to get here and I know that I don't have the patience Okay, I mean I fucking hate driving. Yeah.

But you do it every day. Well, I live in the valley now. I tend to stay in the valley as much as I can now. I live 10 minutes away from here. Just make it work. Yeah. I think you just have to be strategic about it. You know?

Like you guys should have like seen the traffic and then just been like, I'm not coming in, Nick. I'm being strategic about the traffic. I almost like DM'd him like, you're not going to see this, but can't make it. Not worth it. How about you, Sierra? I actually like driving. I'm into it.

I grew up driving. I like a nighttime drive. It's chill. It's a way of calming you down. What do you do? Do you sit in your thoughts? Or do you podcast? Oh, no, I sit in my thoughts.

I'm a sit in silence type of girl okay like for an unreasonable amount of time do your partners former partners what do they think i'm a sit in silence kind of guy too but in relationships i have been told that it's it's weird art yeah it's weird i hard to read yeah you're mysterious yeah mysterious yeah honestly it started from when i was, like, in the hospital full-time, and I would hear alarms in my head. As a former nurse? Yeah. And I would hear alarms in my head. And so, on my

ride home, I would always just sit in silence because I needed to, like, come down from it. So then it would, like, bleed into, like, being at home and sitting in silence. And now it's just something that, like, I find great. I can be alone with my thoughts. But I do realize people will And now it's just something that like, I find great. I can, I can be alone with my thoughts,

but I do realize people will come over and I have like nothing playing, no music, no TV. She's like, are you? I do that a lot too. Yeah. Okay.

That weird. It's so nice to meet someone that does that too, because society just tells us that you're supposed to be an extrovert and you're supposed to be friendly and smile all the time. And I'm here to say like, no. Point to get me. I'm the opposite of friendly or smiling. No, I'm saying because like this, this is a good little trio we have going here because we're kind of like that same way.

Yeah, I'm very introverted, but I need like sound because otherwise it's like the thoughts are racing. Yeah. I just feel like sometimes it sounds like overwhelming i'll do that too i'll be driving for a while and i realize this has been sitting in silence for 40 minutes i feel like normal people have been listening to music of some kind yeah a podcast yeah sometimes you ladies are my first summer house guests oh my god yeah popping the cherry you probably don't know this but over the past six seven months i have immersed myself in bravo i've actually i've noticed and it's been really enjoyable some housewives yeah some housewives

vanderpump little scandoval yeah little scandoval like i've been scandovaling it up yeah you guys met him tom schwartz have you met the toms yeah so i met the toms first on winter house they came out for a weekend it's like we filmed winter house 17 days and season two we kind of cycled some people in and out and the toms shorts and sandoval came for a weekend and yeah kind of like made us their concoctions of cocktails and had a good time and yeah there have been a lot of critiques about both of their characters more specifically sandoval, but by default, Schwartz of it. Guilty by association.

Anything from sociopath to narcissist to all of the above. You ladies spent 16 days with them. What would be your take? You're not expert. You're just human to human take. What's your read on them? I recently spent days

with tom sandoval oh wait yes i heard on the space yes not space not the space show he brought the picture right oh that's on the army show yeah oh yeah special forces he brought the picture yeah yeah that's weird fucking weird but why why is it weird are you talking about like he got like a five by nine printed out of her? It feels like clickbait. I'm not trying to defend Tom Sandoval. No, no, no. But we're just, yeah, we're conversing. We were in a high stakes, high pressure environment.

The show I was on was insane. It was a true like simulation of special forces training. Not like a show that was kind of like, they were like, this is a simulation. And it was like, if you want out of the simulation, raise your hand. Otherwise, you're in the simulation. Was there a safe word? Kind of. Yeah.

Damn. Nope. No, you have to take your armband off. But other than that, you were literally in their world. And they called them the DSs, the drill sergeants. And they didn't give a fuck. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure they were like, no tears.

It was a wild experience. yeses the drill sergeants and they didn't give a fuck yeah i mean the i'm sure they were as well it was a wild experience but i only say that because like i know when i say oh tom schwartz you know i say that i think a lot of people's reaction was oh he did that to like garner sympathy it was some sort of calculated move and i'm like i'm just saying in the environment in which we were in wait sandoval sandoval i don't think he's that forward thinking you call him stupid basically yes i'm just saying i just don't know okay so when we were in vermont he was there for only like two or three days three days i know i keep doing that two or three days that's my thing i don't know what comes after well before we started you thing. I don't know why. What comes after? Well, before we started,

you were like, I don't know, I get to 11. You're like, I don't know if it's two or three. Anyway, I'm just fucking with you. Also early. Anyways.

But for three days, and I have to say, Schwartz, I thought, was so sweet. Loved him. He was kind. He's very laughable. Yeah. He's like that Minnesota,

yeah, Midwestern boy. Yeah, Midwestern, just all around nice. Sandoval, however, I did kind of find him annoying. The sound of his voice was like annoying. He talked a lot about himself, his business ventures, himself. And that was just like on an hour long car ride to the mountain.

But you know what? I was like, okay, well, I don't really know them that well. I'll take it for face value and hopefully I won't see him again. You didn't exactly warm up to Sandoval. No. you and hopefully i won't see him again you didn't exactly warm up to sandoval no i mean this man pulled out a fucking sequined blazer on a tuesday night in vermont yeah i was like interesting choice here well that that was my biggest takeaway with sandoval which everything he would do it was more like okay yeah like is it authentic though is i don't know but that's i do think it is you do i

think it's genuinely who he is yes i don't know i've never met him he is a unique person yeah he is unique yeah whether that's for you or for anyone else but i yeah i don't think it's a front no i don't at all i think he truly is into the things that he's into you know so i mean like i'm like i'm being trapped i know i was like he's just an eclectic human eclectic yeah well you know what i look forward to meeting him one day yeah i mean you can't paint i can't paint my nails white anymore because it's like people think that like in the bravo world or god forbid you have a lightning bolt anywhere yeah like well guilty by association yeah yeah yeah in support of yeah like even on our show the people started to be like oh i'm talking to my friend's husband they're like oh are you gonna like are you gonna

rakel them and i'm like or rachel rachel recent study and i hope this isn't triggering for you but a recent study said nurses and doctors are more likely to cheat than athletes and djs athletes really that must be an ego thing. I don't know. Honestly, I'm going to confirm. It was more... Really? I'd say.

Okay, one time... It was more doctors than nurses. Totally, because the doctors... They were lumping healthcare workers in. It was more... And men also were more guilty. But I think we deducted why. There's reasons why.

You have the overnight shifts. You have really long shifts where you're not from home. I know a lot of people... We're justifying this behavior? No, but when we... No where you're not from home. I know a lot of people. Or justifying this behavior? No, but when we just. No, no, there are reasons. Yeah. But I think it makes sense.

I'm not saying it's right. But I think when you think about how long their shifts are. Like Tom Sandoval right now. No, but it's like. And then also we were discussing when we talked about this. A lot of people I know in the medical profession end up marrying like their high school sweetheart or someone because they're in school for so long. Yeah, for so long. So they're not going out and like meeting other people also you're in high stress situations and like that'll bring you closer to someone in a different way does this mean like

they are cheating with their co-workers i believe so yeah okay so it's like very great there's a lot of sex going yeah yes yeah like on-call room sex want to hear a crazy story one of our doctors and one of my crazy stories one of the doctors at my hospital that i used to work at he was cheating with one of the like nurse practitioners and did everyone know and like everyone soon came to find out because well i think they were fucking on the helipad so like they were going to pick up a patient that was being flighted in and yeah people caught them on the heli they got like a bird's eye view yeah yeah the patient might not but there's like a little double door area where you can go in but like there's just like a little two couches there and so yeah people coming to get a patient you know the the rapid team and yeah they're up there just kind of like fucking and then why would they put couches there kind of asking, fuck in and then. Well, why would they put couches there? Kind of asking for people to fuck there. Well,

I mean, isn't that like a murder? It's like coming in and rushing out. Every couch you've seen? Or what are you guys doing in the studio when I'm not here? Like, well, there was a couch, Nick. Also not to mention like,

oh, are you getting off at the fact that we're about to go pick up a patient right now? Yeah. Who's like, damn, you're dead. He's in dire. Like, yeah. Let's just get a quickie in right quick. The hospital soon came

to find out because i think she was actually engaged and the husband came and created a whole scene there was like a didn't even get fired a bolo put out we had like bolo yeah like be on the lookout be on the lookout for this guy because he came is that like a code hospital yeah oh i know bolo from true crime. Yeah. Oh, that's what I thought of. I thought you meant like a bolo tie. Yeah, that's what I thought. I was thinking of a hat or something. I mean, yeah, Georgia, but.

Be on the lookout for the cheaters. For the woman's fiance. There'll be people fucking. Oh, for the fiance. Because he could come in and like fuck shit up, basically. He came in with rage. Yeah. Have either of you been involved in any type of infidelity, whether as a victim or a perpetrator?

Victim. Victim. Okay. Never a perpetrator. Welcome to the club. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you've been cheated on too.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. Did you know or did you have an inkling or did someone tell you? And how did you find out? Wow. I did not have an inkling i was told by people uh not from her but afterwards it was more of a okay like it yeah it's like i didn't think you know you choose to trust your partner 2020 you kind of look out the other you know like yeah and then you find out and you're like oh well okay my

first initial reaction was this feels more believable than I want it to. You know, where it wasn't like, that's not possible. It was like, especially who it was allegedly with and things like that. And you're just like, yeah. So how about you ladies? Yeah. I dated a guy for two years and it was like right when I was graduating from college. And I thought that like, oh, I was going to graduate.

We would like move in together or something. And come to find out this bitch messaged me on Instagram two weeks before my graduation. The one who was doing the cheating. Yeah. The girl that he was like cheating with. Okay. Like she messaged me on Instagram. She's like, hey, are y'all still together?

Because he's like saying that you're not. And like, we've been talking for over a month now and like i just like girl girl i'm trying to find out okay well good and i was like oh okay yeah like we're still together and you know but anymore you can have him if you want him she's like okay well do you want to see all the messages she sent me everything you know everything did she stay with him? She? No, I was young. I was dumb. I was real weak then. But I was thinking that like, OK, you know, because I talked to him about it and it was like a huge blowout fight. And we're thinking, oh, maybe we'll get back together. It's my graduation. I was just trying to get the graduation. My mom was like, what? Like, you know, your boyfriend's not going to come. All this stuff. And then soon after that,

I found out like it was just like several other different girls. And then I was like, I mean, I graduated from school starting my first job. I moved out on my own and I was like, I'm actually going to be single so that I don't even have to deal with this. And I'd rather be alone than be jealous because I feel myself becoming so jealous. Did you heal from it, though? Like, yeah, you just like compartmentalize and kind of push it down? No, I definitely. Okay. I, you dude, I had to go through so much therapy. Okay. You went to therapy. It was, it was really triggering. Cause I feel like in that relationship I found out, you know, my mom had been cheated on by my dad and that was something that he watched me kind of go through and try to figure out. So

I was so insulted at the fact that, you know, he turned around and did that to me. And then I spent a couple of years just being on my own and being by myself, sitting in silence, but also doing therapy and trying to like get back to myself. I stayed true to myself in the sense that I would rather always, and I always said this, I would rather be alone than be uncomfortable or be this version that someone kind of made me out of like fear of rejection or like my abandonment issues or just trying to live up to someone else's i don't even know standards i guess i just yeah i had to take time for sure it was how about you maya yeah i've actually been cheated on semi recently semi recently yeah how is your heart we're like still in the healing phase

for sure. Can we help? Can we? I mean, we can like break it all down if we need to. Let me ask you this question. When you're aloning

your thoughts, the three of us often are, what is the question you keep asking yourself? Because if you're aloning your thoughts, you ruminate,

I'm assuming a lot. And if you're like me, which I don't know if you are, we can obsess. Yeah. And what is a question that you find keeps you keep having a conversation with yourself about? So I think my biggest like anger, like my my point of rage the most is that he was so he was the one that was consistently like we need to like we should be together. Like, let's make this official. Let's like let's be serious. Let's talk about the moving it.

Let's do all those steps. Like we were in therapy together. We were like setting up this like doing couples therapy. Correct. Like this foundation. And early on. And early on, which, you know, some people would like disagree. I'm like a big believer.

But I thought it was like a great move. You know, like we're not all built with these like great communication skills. Right. And I was like, if you do therapy correctly, all it is is just like a way to basically keep your mental health or your relationship like in shape, so to speak,

like people who go to the gym on the regular. And that's how we viewed it. So I'm like, and he, he was the one paying for the therapy. Like he was the one that was consistently suggesting all these things that were setting us up for like what seems like this future and then to find out that he was also cheating it's like well what what the fuck is the point why were we doing all that yeah for sure how'd you find out he like soft launched me on ig

and then i got a dm from a girl that was like girl to girl like is that your man basically and like that's that was all i needed to i was like that text said it all did you confront him i did he was not honest for it was like literally a month of trying to figure out the truth and then still then like then we broke up you know the fucking truth but not to mention you want to believe them and they're lying they Because you know the fucking truth. But not to mention. And you want to believe them. And they're lying to you. They're lying about it. And you're, yeah. Not to mention, we're filming a TV show.

Oh, correct. I was dating this man on TV. Which one is it? Oliver. He's not a cast member. He's not a cast member. He was on it. What does Oliver look like?

Because of Maya. Can we bring him up? You gave him a gift. Hello. You brought him on the show. I met him through a cast member on the show. And then in my first season and the second season, like, yes, we were dating. He was there at the house all the time.

He was friends with all of us. I mean, we were fully like a little trio. A thruple. A thruple. Thank you. I'm always a third wheel somewhere. Maya, I apologize in advance. I just want to see what it looks like.

I hope it's... Close your eyes. I don't want to trigger you. Oh, no. Handsome't want to trigger you. Oh! Oh! No. Hey, handsome guy. Nick! Fuck that guy.

No, no, no. I mean, it looks like an artist's house for sure. I can see it in his eyes. Good save. Good save. I can see it in his eyes. I can see it in his eyes. Man, and how long ago was this?

I found out in, like, September about the cheating. And then... Yeah, that was a long ago. I? I found out in like September about the cheating. And then I learned the full. Well, here's the thing. Like with people that are liars, like who knows if I actually know the full scope of what happened to this day. You know what I mean? Yeah. Probably still lying about something. Probably.

But it doesn't. I guess it doesn't really matter. But he did send me an email. The top of the year. Top of this year. An email? Well, he's blocked on every other communication. He had to get creative. To whom it may concern.

I had reached out at one point to be like, listen, the show's about to air. You might as well just tell me everything now before I continue to find out through the grapevine, basically. He wasn't super responsive. Months or a month goes by or so. Then I get this email from him at the top of the year first he was like oh i waited to send this email because it was the holidays i wanted you to enjoy your time with your family like because i'm a good guy basically like go you didn't care about me yeah right like this is all self-serving but okay and then it was bulleted with every indiscretion including like ig handles full names so you could go follow them they could get followers i don't know i never looked at these girls and like sometimes it wasn't like give you a breakdown correct like yeah the one line i

remember from i haven't like read this in a while but there was one point where he was like very hillary duff we exchanged semi-nude photos like between you know the months of this and this and i'm like do i mean i'm not trying to give him a pat on the back oh god but do we feel like that's the full truth of it all like i don't know he's so fucking full of shit i'm glad that you felt almost indifferent and angry about it yeah almost and like it, it's one of those things like, you know, you want people to learn from the mistakes. I'm assuming once you get over it. No, this man did not learn.

You don't think he's learned? No. You think he's still. I think he's a serial cheater. Okay. Do you think once a cheater, always a cheater? No. Depends, right?

Yeah, totally. Like in your early twenties, okay, fine. When you're in high school, but like he cheated on his fiance. Yeah. Let me paraphrase i i just in general if you know i don't believe in like big blanket statements i don't like lumping people together you know it's just like i think as individuals we're unique and like we like to

lump ourselves when you know when it's uh and in all these categories i think if you cheat, you're far more likely to cheat again. And if you actually don't take accountability, and it's hard to tell whether they are, like, did he write you for you? My question in my head would be like, why did he write that email? In hopes of redemption, saving face for the show.

He has a lot of motives of writing that email that have nothing to do with him personally healing and take accountability because he is a person on this earth just wants to be a better person and hopes that his future partner, whoever they might be, is protected from his past transgressions. And he's like actually in therapy and actually learning like that's a big if and that's yeah that's rare but do i believe people who actually you know yeah can fuck up because maybe they have some past trauma they haven't dealt with and they fuck up and they hit rock bottom and actually look in the mirror and say i don't want to be this person and i want to make changes do i think people are capable of that and actually make changes yeah sure but i think a lot of people will just hope their partners will change and just take promises as like some sort of guarantee and that never never yeah it's my two cents i personally was like oh i was thinking he was going on the route of like reconciliation

like they thought that like she was gonna like buckle and be like yeah like let's like she was gonna like buckle and be like yeah like let's get back together even after like i love how we included links like it's kind of funny it is sick yeah but you did ask i did like months ago right i like i'm just like put it i'm just trying to think of he probably thought he was doing like a good thing i wonder like how long that took him or like how long he waited on it to send it. Like, did he talk to his therapist about it? Clearly not. Did they think that was a good idea? I like have lots of questions, but also like I remember, you know, I didn't have the full

story yet. We were still figuring out like what the future of our relationship was. I had no idea it was 11 women at this time. Oh, he doesn't give a fuck. See, it's deep. Okay. I'm like, it is pretty deep. Not one, not two but i

originally it was like only this one girl and like you know the timeline was a little hazy of like were we like exclusive all that bullshit and i remember being like i'm done i'm not doing this and we went to therapy because he was i wasn't speaking to him anymore and he went to this therapy session like virtually and he you could tell he thought that we were like getting back together in that in that meeting. And I was like, in what world? Like where where's how where does this delusion come from? And even the therapist was like it was the meanest I've ever seen a therapist be. She was like, you don't deserve her. Like, why would you think that she would come back to you?

You actually triggered everything that you have talked about building up you broke it back down i i truly can't imagine what you might be feeling because like the question i'd have for both of you is as people who have been victimized by cheating and a question people often ask how now and and now that you're out there dating do you discern between um trusting your gut and being paranoid you know because it's it's really fucking hard and then in your case fuck the fact that he weaponized therapy against you right because some people might have the peace of mind it's like all right well my partner's really working we're doing the work and if they're doing the work they can't possibly yeah want to like yeah you know fuck. But clearly that's that's not the case. People can weaponize anything, you know, and therapy can be one of them. And so like, how do you ladies, you know, as you get older and more mature, you referenced your age as being a reason why, you know, like maybe you put up with things that now, you know, you wouldn't want to put up with. But how do you go about doing that where, you know, there's no guarantees in relationships, no matter what, it's always a risk. You know,

when you meet someone and you fall in love, that's just a love's a fucking risk. And so how do you go from trusting that gut of like, I got this feeling that something's right versus like losing your mind because, and then blaming your new partner for something your past partner did. I just don't want to give like Oliver, foriver for example any power and so to me i'm like i have to empower myself to not to trust that not everyone out there is out to hurt me yeah he obviously like blip in the radar mistake made a year of my life i not lost i learned something i'm sure i just can't tell you what yet um and i'm sure you learned a lot maybe like some something yes it's deep down right now because now the rage is coming back no i hear you i'm sorry

it was the picture you had to show his face no did i call him handsome but like why am i gonna let this one guy fuck up the rest of my life and like what could be promising with somebody else because of his own like he it's his issues at the end of the day like what he did has nothing to do with me very healthy outlook yeah yeah i think more just like trying to trust myself it's hard but also i'm asking i'm asking i'm not gonna drive myself mad i'm just gonna ask and you know that's your opportunity if the person chooses to lie to me okay i feel like i'm probably going to find out in this day and age of technology i'm gonna find out we're also on tv like what did you i'm gonna find out people are gonna reach out but also i've become not afraid to like ask the question you know and like not

being so intimidated or so worried that i'm gonna like ruffle feathers that i'm like fuck it like what do i have to lose as someone who i, I think you'll relate based on your previous answer. Like I want to, I agree with you. You got to choose to trust, right? It's like, it's a fucking choice. Love's a risk, you know? And when you're in a healthy relationship or seemingly a healthy relationship, you want to pride yourself over being like, I want to trust my person. I'm going to give them a benefit of the doubt. I don't want to be in a relationship where every time they ask to go out, I'm thinking, what the fuck are you going to do yeah i've had that used against me right that trust so i have learned over the years that like again that difference between well patting myself

on the back for being the trusting boyfriend versus being like i'm sorry trusting or not but that's fucked up like why what are there things that you would have been okay with in the past in terms of like going out alone or going out with the boys or whatever it is that you pretended to be cool with in the past and now you're just like, I don't put up with that anymore? No, but we're really independent. Like we love alone time.

So for me, I want to be in a relationship with someone that does have boys that they want to go out with so they're not like consistently around me. So it's like, no, you need to be in a relationship with someone that does have boys that they want to go out with. So they're not like consistently around me. Correct. So it's like, no, you need to go out with the boys because I want to go out with my friends at times. And I'm not going to text you back immediately. And there should be that trust.

I'm not changing that. Like, I never look at a significant other's phone. I've never done that. The only time I did it was when I found out about the I was fine. Like, show me the fucking phone. But no, I'm not changing that. Like, for what? I think personally, I'm more confident.

Go have your own separate life because I have mine. I will say I put up more with like the jealous, like jealousy from guys when I was younger, where they were kind of like projecting their jealous features onto me. Whereas like, oh, well, what are you doing? Who are you going with? Like the 10 million questions, I used to accept that. And now I'm like, none of your fucking business. Like we could be sleeping together, but you don't need to know damn everything.

That's crazy. Like you trust me, I trust you. If I get an inkling that, you know, things aren't right, yeah, I'm gonna ask you about it. Have you ever been in a relationship? Because to me, this was a sign. I always remembered. It was the casual non-invite.

Yeah. And then they try to convince you that they're not inviting you because you won't have fun. And it's always like, but you don't like clubs or whatever it is. And you're like, well, yeah, I'm not like a club rat, but I'll go to a club. If we're spending time together, it's chill. Yeah, it's like we're there together. And then you find and they're like, well, it's boys night. And you find or it's girls night. You find out it's not girls night.

It's just like you're not invited. I've never I don't think I've ever done that. But with guys, I feel like it's I don't know. They have this way of I don't know. I can just feel like I pick up on like them scheming or going around something. I'm always like because they're not usually that smooth in my head or I'm like, oh, you're mad that I didn't text you back at this time when you didn't text me back at that time. I didn't get pissed. I just recently told a guy I was like, look, he was kind of getting like the little jealous notions.

And I was like, I you got to chill giving it. I was like, I can't do this. If you don't trust me, we're so far early on in this. And you're not my man. Yeah, you're not my man. Did you see that meme that's like, unless you're like, basically treat a man like he's your cousin until he claims you. No, but. But it's like, you're my cousin right now.

Like, why are you asking me what I'm doing? You don't need to know where I was at this time. Like, I'm time stamping. Like, I'm not time stamping my night for you. No, don't clock me. Yeah. Okay. That's a little tangent.

It's good to know. I've been actually asking this question of my audience and just ladies in general. Do you two have a minimum height requirement? Oh, my God. You know what? Not anymore. So I used to not. Now I Oh, my God. You know what? Not anymore. So I used to not. Now I do, I think.

Now you do. Yeah, because I'm like, what is your height requirement? Well, I feel like it's got to be like 6'1 or above. 6'1 or above. So I was engaged to like a 5'10 dude. Yeah. 5'10 is being generous. That's true.

What's his name? No, we were not engaged. See, I already forgot his name. Good. Good. Yeah. And now, like, well, if I'm swiping, I'm like, I'm not swiping for you. If you're saying you're 5'10", that means you're 5'8". I'm not swiping.

I don't want to meet you. And then I'm in heels and I'm so much taller than you. And I'm having to like, if I have to bend down to hug you, if I have to put, if I'm putting my hands physically like over your shoulders and not around your waist to hug you, I'm not dating you. What if he is perfect? I don't believe in short kings. I don't know. Yeah. She is like not into the short kings anymore because I did it before.

And like, yeah, that's true. I'm not doing it. Like, I feel like I gotta be pickier now. So he was five nine. I'm going to give him five ten. You're going to give him five ten. Literally five eight. You're breaking the hearts of all the short kings out there. He's going to hate me, but whatever.

Yeah, so I'm 5'8". I'm 5'8", also. And I was looking this man right in the... No, no, no. I look him in the eye. And we had the same size forehead. We could date. When we were dating, I'd be like, oh, I'm looking down on you today. Like if I was wanting to be an asshole, you know? So yeah, we'll give him five,

nine. I think I'm flipped. I went from dating guys that are like six, five, six, six, real fucking tall. And now I'm coming back down.

I'm like, I could do, you know, I made a joke last year. I was like, you know what? I'm into five, eight. I'm into five,

nine. She's lying though. I think it's, I'm into five, 10. It's okay to be open to. I'm open to it. She's open to it. Watch who she marries.

Watch who she'll be in any relationship with. He will not be that height. I feel like it's something we should talk about. Like it's like girl math, girl dinner. Like men's measurements. Yeah. Like the amount of guys who are like, oh, but like you're a tall like 5'6 or 5'7. I'm like there's no such thing as a tall anything.

No, there's literally none. It's a measurement. Correct. You can't be a short 5'10 you are you're not just to defend my short kings out there and i'm six two so i'm yeah you ain't even i've been blessed really but at the same time it's just like you why they lie because then we will say no they don't think they have a shot but they do i went on a date like two weeks ago with this guy that said he was six feet on his profile. And I showed up.

And you know what? I still didn't believe him based off the pictures. I was like, he might be like a 5'10 saying he's six feet, you know? So I was like, I'll wear a short heel just to like feed his ego. And so I don't immediately walk out of this date. He was so short. He was so short. But not like 5'5".

He wasn't 5'5", but he was like 5'10 on a good day. But if he said 5'8 on his like bio or whatever, I don't know, you were. Yeah, and came taller. That's kind of a. But he would. But you wouldn't. You wouldn't. You would just keep swiping.

This is true. And actually, I'm after saying all this, I'm far more attracted to personality than I am to looks, generally speaking. Like, I'd like to get to know you. You think that's not true? No, I'm far more attracted to personality than I am to looks, generally speaking. Like, I'd like to get to know you. You think that's not true? No, I think it's true. But I'm the same way.

But you give me so much hell for it. Because you've dated some ugly dudes, Sierra. Yeah, because they have great personalities. No, you know exactly who I'm thinking about. And he did not have a good personality. I didn't date that man. I met him at a festival for a day and a half. No, but you guys were talking for a minute.

Girl. And that was the first time we met. Okay, we should not argue. Friends argue. It's fine. No, but I love a personality. I love a guy

that can make me laugh. So I'm willing to, you know, give up some other features if you have like a bomb-ass personality. Because at the end of the day, I'm like, yeah, like I've dated really really hot guys but they were really fucking boring and i wanted to stupid and stupid and you know because the truth is all the the six all the guys six two

and above in hookup culture have just become massive fuck boys yeah because there's like one percent of all men are over six foot. Yeah. There's a name for them. Everyone's going after them and there's no reason for them to behave themselves. Meanwhile, all the 5'8 guys are just like, give me a shot. Yeah, just look at me. I'm tall. And they don't have to do any work because people, girls approach them like, yeah, I'm over that.

All your tall kings are just getting real spoiled. They are. They're, yeah. Yeah, I'm over that. All your tall kings are just getting real spoiled. They are. Yeah. I don't feel like six feet, six, six, two is like obviously tall these days, but like, I feel like unless you're like above six, four, six, five, then you can start acting like reckless. But the U.S. population, about 14.5% of all men are six feet or over. Roughly 1% of U.S. women.

Can you also find the average height of a man in America? Because this is going to- I'm going to Russia. They're tall there too. Five foot nine. Five nine. Are you kidding me? This seems like that's from like the 1800s.

No. Because we are both five eight. That's the thing. You're five eight? No, it's like- Five four. So we are also taller for women. Yeah.

That's what annoys me. I feel like when it's like the 5'3", or like the really short women who are like, I only date over six feet. I agree. We just talked about this on our podcast. Just leave them for the taller women. That's the problem with dating apps

is because they make you think that the only people available are these like tall, good looking guys. And they're like, they're just hiding on the short. Yeah. And then you guys, and the ones who like get through the those the dating app wall you guys are just like fuck you guys how did they get through swipe left no i i really didn't give

the short guys a chance in my life like they've had their chance well you did almost you did get engaged the one correct so it's like i gave one a shot. Yeah, I gave one a shot. I've dated short dudes, like short, short dudes. Like honestly, too much. Okay. It's time to give the tall guys a chance. I'm just trying to advocate for my short friends out there.

You're not even short. You don't even... You can't even relate. I'm just trying to pay it forward. No, I can't relate. I agree. I agree though because I've given some short kings a chance

and like there was other reasons that I didn't want to date them. But like you can't date them. But like, you can't hate him. He like put his arm behind mine. Like he linked arms with me in the way that stereotypically a woman

would link with a man. And I was like, I'm guiding you down the street right now. Yeah. Whatever. You know, you never saw him again. I did not.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I'll talk to my women friends and be like, well, like, why didn't she like him? And they'll give me all these reasons. And I'm like, that doesn't make sense. They're like, well, he was short. Yeah, I'll talk to my women friends. I'll be like, well, why didn't you like him?

And they'll give me all these reasons. And I'm like, that doesn't make sense. They're like, well, he was short. Okay, but the date I just went on, he was short, but that's not the reason I'm not ever going to date him again. It was his personality. It just happens to be like, in addition to you sucking, if you're also 5'8", then yeah, that's correct.

The problem is, yeah, now it's just like a chicken before the egg because some of them have bad personalities because they've been just trying too hard their whole life. Yeah, Napoleon syndrome. Yeah, a little bit of that. All you dog lovers out there, have you tried out Sundays? Well, if you haven't, you are definitely missing out. Sundays is zero prep, zero mess, and zero stress.

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I'm only reading the headlines, so I don't know the full details. Jen, give us the breakdown. So, movie came out years and years and years ago. Great movie. Have you guys seen the movie? Blindside, one of my favorite movies. Great movie, starring Sandra Bullock.

Sandra Bullock as a blonde? I wonder how she's feeling right now about all this news. Wendled. Oh, she's going through a lot right now. Yeah, it was like her husband just passed away. I saw that. Isn't that crazy?

I didn't even know she was dating that guy. This has been a terrible few weeks for her. Yeah. Damn. Yeah, but so the family that adopted him, he's now saying it wasn't really adoption. It was more a conservative. And like that shouldn't- Oh, that is like Britney.

That is Britney Spears. Exactly. Britney Spears. Literally has been Britney Spears. Yeah. Isn like that is like Britney. It is Britney Spears. Britney Spears literally has been Britney Spears. Yeah. Isn't that public record? Like isn't that like something we can

figure out? Didn't they do their research before producing the movie? Like if they if he was adopted you would think there are adoption papers. If it was a conservatorship there's

a contract. He's saying he didn't know the difference between the paperwork because he was like 18. But what does the paperwork say is my question. And to be fair, they did have to

kind of teach him how to read and write from an older age. So I could kind of see him not being able to. I bet he didn't even read the paperwork. I wouldn't have read the fucking paperwork. I would have read the paperwork either. If it's a dream come true, give me the fucking pen. You know? So I'm just curious what

the paperwork says because from an outside third party, if it was a conservative ship, to me, red flag, just right off the bat. Yeah. Like. But do you think you would have known that at his age, given like his life experience? No, I don't. I fought the family, not him. Yeah.

I would have signed whatever. Yeah. You know, like he didn't know any better. Like what's a conservative ship versus like most of the country only knows what a conservative ship is because of britney spears yeah truly but how at 37 are we just now disputing a conservative ship well he's 37 yeah he's 37 so that means they still have conservatorship over him so they are still controlling his finances i that i don't that's a great question there's a lawsuit and that's the most recent story that the little brother from the movie he has talked about it and he says first he says that the family did not make a huge profit so he's

denying that but then he also said profit this is a rich family they own like fucking taco bells and shit i don't know what but like not a lot of money right but like yeah not a lot of money is relative right you know did they sell the rights to this story to be written and well there was a book out of it the movie was made off a book and they i think sounds like they sold it right for the book. But the point is, like, how much money did Michael make? Right. I don't care how much was total made. But if he hasn't made any, that's fucked. Well, if you come from nothing.

Yeah, exactly. Like, didn't he, he played professional, or did he play professionally? Yeah, he was good, too. But what he made as a pro, to me, has nothing to do with that family. No, that's completely unrelated. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, even if the family made a million dollars,

still, he deserves a piece of that. Two million, three million. I feel like he should deserve all of it. It seems fucked up that a family of privilege who just because

they decided to do a good thing, right? Like, to me, it's just like, if they took a dollar from him, and again,

keep in mind, this is a family which doesn't seem like they needed the money. No. So like, why isn't Michael getting all of this money? It's his fucking story. It's him. And like, yeah, they did a good deed.

But if the moment you start like being like, how much should I get paid for this good deed? Right. It ceases to be a good fucking deed. Correct. It becomes a transaction. Yeah. And now that it's a transaction, I fucking questions yeah i mean yeah like he deserves all of that not to not to mention like i just don't know how i feel about like him being like the poster boy for their family there's some level of like a race situation that is like making me it's annoying it's annoying white savior

yeah totally not to mention imagine if they have side businesses yeah the benefits from their businesses they got from the publicity of this story in the movie yes like like that's also part of profit that should be put in account for him as a trust or whatever i'm so over the whole fucking like it's even you know when people like go to fucking africa take a picture with like you know a black kid and like and they post it on their instagram i'm like oh i'm so fucking over that the whole the way that it presents it's like well just do it and but like do it in silence i get like a movie was made off of it but like if you're actually gonna do this and like make a movie off of it like don't be

dirty behind the scenes with a conservatorship and like low key trying to like well just in general like well there's that as you mentioned obviously it has the race element

yeah but like celebrities in general like I don't give a shit when you're volunteering at a soup kitchen no I don't I don't

I think it's weird to take pictures like do that in fucking silence yeah I think it's weird to take pictures in that environment why are you inviting TMZ there oh I'm at a children's hospital

like selfie it's just like the fuck like oh you brought your PR team yeah it's so's weird to take pictures in that environment why are you inviting TMZ there I'm at a children's hospital like selfie it's just like the fuck like oh you brought your PR team yeah it's so fucking weird and it happens all the time and it's shocking to me

that like it works like fans will be like oh my god you're like the greatest and I'm like it's so fucking performative you know what

my other pet peeve is like people who take pictures in the hospital with like with their like when they're like holding the hand yeah like when there's like a patient you go to the hospital especially if that patient is not awake not alive or like whatever like taking pictures in the

hospital i think is also weird and cringy and like oh so who snapped this photo of you is it worse than crying on social media telling a story yes yeah have you ever done that no i've never done that i think i know i was like you the way you looked you were kind of like wait a second but the whole like i just i gotta i gotta be honest with you guys right now and talk it's like well you're you're crying like or the compilation of like crying videos wait there's one like a year or something yes there's one that's going viral of this woman who's like very slowly taking her her wedding ring off like she's just going through fresh through a divorce but like as she's taking the wedding ring off she's flashing back to like pictures of their wedding and like them

kissing on vacation and she's crying like deep tears and people in the comments are like you posted this for what like what but yeah but who are you saying time out in the middle of your tears to like take a photo and like it's so fucking and you cut this together yourself like you edited it and you then chose to post it like i'm really sad here yeah like oh that's a really good like the tears falling just like perfectly or like the silent tears yeah let's get people the most yeah i'm yeah am i a bitch yeah we are but like it's okay no i don't think we are okay okay good he's always advocating for everybody we can't trust him he's an ally of the short kings i was one i'm just looking out for a couple shorties

but also no but like if you do know anyone who's not exactly six foot, I'll totally give them, you know, a lunch, a coffee date, a walk, an ice cream date. A walk? No, you cannot. What's your favorite first date? I do like drinks, but I like something more simple nowadays. Like I'll do like a coffee date. I think that's chill.

But I do love a walk. I like a walk, yeah. But maybe not on a first date. You're going to think I'm crazy. I have been advocating for Zoom dates or FaceTime dates. chill but i do love a walk going oh yeah but maybe you're saying you have a i you're gonna think i'm crazy i have been advocating for zoom dates or facetime dates so i think that facetiming is actually nice if you meet like on an app to like like hey what's up meeting a stranger for the first time why the fuck are you investing all this time to get ready go out spend money i'm not mad at that and i i honestly am not mad if it's

like spontaneous like hey do you have a quick check like sec to chat and like boom you see each other you're real no catfish here like now we can go have drinks but i don't see okay i feel like if you're having drinks with me for my first date it has to be before dinner time because otherwise i'm gonna get hungry yeah you're gonna have to Yeah, you're going to have to feed me. And you're going to have to feed me. That's one. But two, I think my favorite dates are like activities, like something like playing games, like going to the arcade, going bowling, like mini golf, something active.

You love a game. I love a game. It makes the conversations easy. And I'm competitive. It's like it's easy for banter. Like I think I just think it's conducive to like i'm trying to sit down and look you in your eyes uh see you just want to sit there in silence not in silence but i'm trying to see what you're about i'm trying to pick up your vibe

yeah that's why i like coffee it's chill also if you're i think people don't know how to interpret coffee dates these days as if like are they romantic it's a vetting process like it's 30 minutes to an hour you're most likely not going to get another coffee true if you didn't meet in a public area where you guys had this like chemistry where one person went up to the other and you had this really cute moment and you already

know there's chemistry there you're both excited then like yeah short of that like it is a fucking interview you are qualifying them you're fucking strangers yeah and like you don't know anything about them yeah we're just trying to see if we vibe at all enough to go out to dinner you know can we sit through a dinner all their app says is that like their height and that they like to travel and they like to laugh you know like that's every fucking bio it's some version of, you know, I like to laugh and have fun.

I like you. I like when they make me laugh and I like to travel. I just want to travel with. And that's every fucking bio. I fucking hate dating. So true. Dating apps. They're awful.

I used to be pro dating app. I become anti dating. I become anti. I'm always it's like it's fine if you have to you have to have self-control and it's got to be just one way of that you're meeting people. But now it's just like people rely on it too much. Yeah. I feel like guys in person like when you're going out they don't approach women. And I feel like it's become this like epidemic where guys are. Yeah I can understand being intimidated or like being scared of rejection, but guys don't really approach. And like, I feel like fun stories that I love hearing, especially from like my dad or like him having to like shoot his shot

because there weren't cell phones. So there are a couple of things that go into it. One, I think the society that we live in too, I think dating roles have become so kind of blurred in terms of like the criticisms gone both ways. And like, listen,

there's a lot of bad actors when it comes to men, as we know. Yeah. At the same time, I think some of the information that's floating out on the internet, like people making tick tocks and like some people like, you know, I've seen tick tocks of women being like,

if I don't know you don't fucking talk to me, you, you know? And so like, there's that type of energy that's being put out there where I think in general like men are just like i don't know they don't know what i don't i don't want to that also being said you two obviously attractive people right and so i think attractive men just like attractive women attractive men are used to having people come up to them i think the more attractive people are the less fucking social skills they tend to have oh my god i say that's a model complex yeah and it's just like they're just used to like smiling

or putting out the vibe and so when you have like kind of two good-looking people there's a good chance both those people are just kind of like there's just a standing in the corner and just like looking and they're like looking the other way and like there's just a lot of like missed uh misconnections yeah with those types of people. So I think it's a little bit of, of both, but yeah. And I just think society, we have become worse communicators. We're buried in our phones. We don't know how to talk to each other.

Even friends don't communicate over phone. They're just texting and shit like that. So having kind of like putting yourself out there and putting yourself open for rejection, I think as a society, we're getting worse and worse. And it was always a challenge. Yeah. And so I think it's that. I kind of love the old school, you know, a guy coming up to a girl, which girls approach now, too, which is cool. I don't do it, but I probably should try it. Have you ever approached a guy? No, never. Oh, see, I will pick up a man. What's your go-to line? I don't ever have one. I just always say something so snarky. Yeah, you chirp the fuck out of them. I just will chirp you.

Honestly, all you really have to do is say hello. I don't even think I usually start with a hello. I'm usually saying something so sassy. At the end of the day, if someone is attracted to you, you just gotta say hi and this is advice i would say to guys too where it's just like don't call them hot or objectify women just be like hi and smile and if they're interested they'll let you know it's kind of that simple

right i mean yeah it should be yeah i'm saying this like an approacher no it's so interesting though but it's easy to fuck you know i i can look back and realize i i have done it yeah but no i'm not good at having but are your palms sweaty are you like fuck yeah everyone gets nervous you know like yeah i'm like you trip over your words and shit like that but it's so weird that like in person a guy can come up to you and say hey and really like just smile and that's it but if your first line to me in a dating app is hey i'm not responding sure well because you have no you can't you know this guy walks up to you and like says hey and kind of gives you a look and you know if he's tall he's already in yeah you know yeah people talk about privilege all the time and i have a lot of it but my greatest

privilege is being 60 i'm not kidding is six two 100 yeah like because you just i just know that like top of the food chain truly the top when people realize i tall am i'm treated differently yeah facts it's true i mean i like they're talking to you on the phone but then they're like when they see you in person it's like oh damn all right i was shocked at how tall you were to be honest so well imagine just showing up like the curtains open. Oh, you're tall. You must be good. He could do no wrong. It's not right.

Honestly, get in where you fit in. Like, don't reinvent the wheel. I mean, I've been blessed. It's like I'm so hot. No, I'm just tall. Yes, you're also good looking so in a package yes it works i'm telling you because i know because when the i my bio literally says taller in person it's because after going on tv and people seeing me on tv they thought you know

all right fine and then they meet me in person go oh okay you're like you're taller than i thought you were and like taller than i thought you were when it comes for a woman to Okay, you're taller than I thought you were. And taller than I thought you were when it comes for a woman, to me says you're hotter than I thought you were. Correct. Wow. I think that's exactly what I mean.

But are you snubbing them? Or were you leaning into it? No, I don't usually lean in. I can be very guarded at times. In general, I'm kind of a sarcastic dick. I don't try to be. Yeah, it just happens. It's in my nature. You get painted that way also.

It's my aloofness. We get it. Speaking of dating and dating apps, we have a caller who needs some help. Are we ready to give us some advice? Yeah, you can go one or two ways. I wouldn't listen to me. We speak from our mistakes. Who would you rather get advice from? Someone who is just like, Yeah, I go one or two ways. I wouldn't listen to me. We speak from our mistakes. Okay.

Who would you rather get advice from? Someone who is just like, I found the love of my life at 18. We've been in a perfect relationship. We've never had problems. Or would you rather give it for someone to be like, I have fucked up so many times. Yeah, that person. And well, I'll probably fuck up again, but I can tell you the mistakes I've made and why, you know? Yeah. So here we are. All right, let tell you the mistakes I've made and why, you know? Yeah.

So here we are. All right, let's hear it. I've fucked up a lot. How's it going? Hey, I am Julie. I'm 33, and I need help crafting the perfect text. Someone who I've exchanged numbers with, but has unmatched me on Hinge. Okay.

All right. Well, there is no perfect text. Let's kind of rewind for a second All right. Well, there is no perfect text. Let's kind of rewind for a second. Yeah, we need details. You matched with a gentleman? Yes. Right.

And how'd that conversation go? It was really nice. He responded kind of immediately. It was not this past Friday, but the Friday before. It's been about 10 days. And every time I would say something, I got a response. Got multiple responses. We talked about cooking a lot. days. And every time I would say something, I got a response, got multiple tech, you know, multiple responses. We talked about cooking a lot. And then I said, maybe I'll get an invite over for dinner one day. And then I didn't hear anything till the next day. So I said,

was that too forward? He goes, not at all, just bad timing. And then he said, I would love to set up a date. We exchanged phone numbers, texted a little bit. I said, I was going to be out of town. I had a work trip in Wisconsin at the end of last week. So I was out of town for a few days. And he said, we can text and keep in touch until then. And then we talked a little bit on last Sunday, and then nothing sent. Who sent the last text message? Me. That's why I didn't say anything again, because I was like, I was waiting to say something. When did you notice? I was waiting for him to kind of say something. Yeah. When did you notice that he unmatched you on, is it Hinge?

When did you notice? I was waiting for him to kind of say something. Yeah. When did you notice that he unmatched you on, is it Hinge? I went on there probably, so we exchanged numbers last Sunday. So probably on Monday,

I was just on there and then I was in there and I noticed it was unmatched. So one day later. That's when I was kind of like, yeah, the next day. The next day after we exchanged phone numbers and texted, then he had unmatched me.

But you proceeded to text, correct? While you were on your trip? No, we haven't said anything since, like, it's been like a week. Since the unmatch. So Sunday was when you exchanged phone numbers and you texted a little bit. Then he didn't say anything later on Sunday. You were the last text. Then you went on on Monday and saw he'd unmatched.

Right. But I still have his phone number. So I was like, well, I don't know if I should say anything. Not that I have his phone number. It's not like we don't have any point of contact no that was phone number i don't like this man i had this happen to me once for a hot second this is years ago but in my single days i was uh on raya and i matched with at the time someone i was like kind of a fan of and i was like oh okay shit and then we messaged back and forth i thought the banter was good i was like throwing out some game whatever and and then i was like let's get together very similar to you

she's like ah cool i'm out of town right now i'm working she's like filming some movie or some shit and then like i'm back and i'm like, great. And then I was like, all right, well, here's my number. Let's just get off the app. I, you know,

I, if you heard me talk, get off the fucking texting apps, you know? And then like two days later, I got this random ass text from her, you know? She's like,

Hey, it's so-and-so. I'm like, Oh shit. And then like, I replied like, I don't know, 20 minutes later,

playing it cool and shit. Never fucking heard from her. And I spent like three days being like, why don't know, 20 minutes later, playing it cool and shit. Never fucking heard from her. And I spent like three days being like, why would she text me to not respond? But what Nick's leaving out is that he sent like 15 dates. That was the joke. But I don't know if she knew that. It was so like, it was funny.

You said that? Did she laugh at it? She never replied. She did. No, she did reply to that. Oh, okay. Yeah yeah that was in between that was on the app it was basically like i was like wait this is amazing it was basically like uh it was around thanksgiving when we were talking about getting together and i was like how about

this date and she was like how about that and then as a joke and i was it's like if you're gonna joke on text you have to make it obvious yes yeah and I was taking a risk it's like either this person's gonna have a sense of humor or they're not and so I was like all right well I'm available and I listed like 15 days or some shit and it was just the point of like yeah like it's excessive I'm putting myself you know like she laughed whatever gave me her number you know I don't know and the point is of telling the story is i have no fucking clue why she didn't respond maybe she had just got out of a relationship jumped on the app to match with a handful of people then like her ex freaked out and they got back together i don't know maybe i was one of five people she matched with and i was her third favorite choice you know maybe she like

matched with me and then like googled my ass and was like i'm not gonna respond i have no fucking clue you know why she she did it and we can spend a lot of time being like hypothesizing well they sent me their number and we'll make this whole thing as if like sending their cell phone number is like giving them their like as if they gave you their bank account and social security number is if like they have given you all this trust, you know, it's just like, I know it like is confusing and you're like, why the fuck would someone say this? But unfortunately in this kind of like dating, you know, hookup culture, dating app society, everyone has like, you're on dating apps. How many matches do you have? I mean, I have two different ones. So I get total like four right now. Oh, so you're on two different apps. You have a total of four matches, right? And so I don't know how it's going with these other guys,

but like you're also not, you aren't committed to this one guy. You were feeling him out. You could literally get off the phone with us today, match with some guy who you're just like, damn, you know? And all of a sudden, if you were talking to this guy

and let's say he hadn't ghosted you, you could be more excited about someone you might match with five minutes ago. And so the point is, I don't know what happened, but it's some version of that where he just like doesn't know you, doesn't know anything about you. You guys talked about cooking.

Meanwhile, he's been also living his life matching with a bunch of other people. And you just got lost in the shuffle. I say just- I say delete his number, block him, move on. He doesn't deserve you. The dating apps,

some people love the dopamine hit, you know? Yeah, it's like the instant validation that you can get. Yeah, the instant validation. And they're like, oh, okay, well, I got... We were texting whenever I got her number. Okay, that's it.

But in actuality, they don't want to spend the actual time that it takes to put in to like organize a date or go out on a date or actually get to know someone that he's not going to try to pull the shit again right but if you feel like because I always try to give myself two options because it's like

what I should do versus what I want to do it's like if you want to send him a text message be like hey do you want to go out then fucking do that too like I don't know if I would send that. I would more be like, hey, what happened? Like, earth to so and so. Are you there?

I wouldn't ask. At this point, I wouldn't ask. I said no more small talk. At this point, I was just thinking, like, you know, if just to be like, hey, are you still, do you still want to go out? Do you still want to set something up for next week? You know, that would be kind of like where I would be coming from. But you should have someone that's so interested that, like like makes the effort to tell you that they're interested. It's so early on.

And if you have to wonder even right now, his interest level, like don't play yourself. You're worth more than that. Yeah, queen. We actually gave similar advice to a caller a couple of weeks ago. It did get a response. It didn't get a date. So just so you know. But it's like, you know, you kind of fight fire with fire.

What do you want to do? You want to text him. Yeah, she wants the perfect text. A little bit, yeah. What do you think he would say? I would, you know, it's similar advice we gave someone last time. But if you text them, you text them as if like, like a fuck boy and that, and a fuck boy, it would, would, would text someone.

What are you up to tonight? I just got, I got your board. You have nothing to do. Right. And you're seeing, is, does he live in your, like, are you guys live in the same area? Yeah. He's like 15 minutes from me, which was another, I was like, wow, this is cool. I live in a very small town.

We have a few clues with this guys, but the clues that we do have is anytime you have put out a plan of meeting up, he didn't respond immediately. He immediately changes behavior. And yeah, he was like, oh, just bad timing. But I don't know. Usually it's not a coincidence, right? So this guy has kind of like, you know, and you can just assume everyone on a dating app has fuck boy mentality. You know, this is what it is. This is hookup culture, you know, and if you like someone and you're having sex when they have, you're, you're the fuck boy, you know, so to speak.

So it sounds like anytime you're like, Hey, what are you doing this Saturday? This guy ain't going to make a plan with you. Now, as we all agree here, like it's probably not in your best interest to text him, but if you are going to play the game and you want to like just like lead with your heart, the best thing for you to do is just like act like a fuck boy. And that is like hit him up day of. Act like you have nothing better to do and see if you can like catch him on a boring day. Yeah. You know, because that.

Not a bad plan. I do like that. Yeah. Literally just like. Well, it is a bad plan, do like that yeah literally just like it is a bad plan but it might work don't spell what out you need to like minimal letters minimal letters just like what's what are you up to yes yeah but just so you know you are future pursuing someone who's giving you a bunch of bad signs. They're like a breadcrumb.

Yeah. What do you like about him? What makes him so fascinating that you are willing to put all this emotional energy into him? I knew this was going to be the Nick question. What do you really know about him? You know, like, I don't know. It's just like maybe the possibility. The fact that he's kind of like my age.

He's in my, you know, he's in my town. Yeah. Proximity. It seemed like, you possibility. The fact that he's kind of like my age. He's in my town. Proximity. You're 33 and where do you live? You're selling yourself short. He's alive. He wears shirts. Do you have any mutual friends since you live in such a small town? Is he hot?

I don't know. Is he hot? Yeah, he's cute. Well, let me ask this. What are your dating goals? Great question. small town is he even is he hot i don't think he's hot yeah he's cute well i would yeah well let me ask this what are your dating goals great question i'm definitely looking for someone that's relationship minded so okay he's not i mean we hadn't really discussed that yet yeah but it's good that you know this my i think i think we all agree here it's just like listen you're single you're on the apps fuck it yolo if you want to text someone even though they're kind of giving you some bad vibes text them do what you have to stop yourself from doing is kind of, you're single, you're on the apps, fuck it. YOLO. If you want to text someone, even though they're kind of giving you some bad vibes, text them. But what you have to stop

yourself from doing is kind of what you're doing now. And while we appreciate you calling is like, it's like cannibalizing your emotional energy. You're thinking about it a lot. And instead of investing in yourself or your girls or whatever it is, your job, this is consuming your energy. So the question is when you text this guy, can you be like, all right, this is consuming your energy. So the question is, when you text this guy, can you be like, all right, this is my last shot. I'm going to put myself out there and this is all am I going to do? Or is texting him, getting him to respond back a day later and re kind of vigorating this conversation, is it going to get you down an emotional rabbit hole where for the next three weeks, you're just going to be constantly like asking yourself, what does he mean by this? Why did he do this? Why did he do that? And that's

what you want to avoid. So you have to ask yourself, how much self-control do you have with this situation? Because like texting him once and kind of see if he's willing to hang out, fine. But every situationship of the world has started like this, where you have ignored the red flags and you have pursued him enough where the person on the other side of the situation ship is thinking, I don't know. I basically found someone who's willing to hang out with me whenever the fuck I want. They're willing to have sex with me, whatever the fuck I want. I don't got to do shit to keep them around. And all right, fine. We can do that.

He should like you more than you like him, especially in the beginning. Yeah, always. And it's almost where I'm at now, like, because been a week like you know the first day after it happens you're just kind of like why what should i do should i text them now that it's been a week and like the more i talk to you guys the more i'm like you know i mean i yeah i don't know that the urge to text him is there because like i've always been at the school i thought like if someone wants to they will make you a priority they will you know yeah and listen he doesn't know you so it doesn't make sense for him to make you a priority honestly i've been the unmatcher on a dating yeah we all have it's dating culture it's dating apps they they make it easy for all of us to to act this way but the point is he's acting this way with you. And as far as you are concerned with

him, he's not giving you the signs that you should be looking for. And that's just something you would just have to like take account and ask yourself how much are you willing to invest in someone you know nothing about who's giving you nothing, you know? And I just hope it's not a lot, you know? So like sending a text, no big deal. But we all know how this works. And we all have been you before. And we've all like looked back and realized, I spent a fucking month like talking to friends, being like this.

And it's, listen, it's fun. It's fun to like have a little drama with your friends. But what do you think, you know? But at some point you have to realize that energy you're investing in this person is valuable. And it could be going to other things that are far more productive in your life. Who, like you said, I barely know anything about at this point. Literally nothing.

You probably can't even cook. Totally not. Period. What is the perfect text for her? What should she text him? Get drunk. Not get. If you happen to be drunk.

I was like, a drink should be involved. Yeah, I was like, if you like have to do it you know no wait what a hook if you have to do it you know okay you know maybe get a little tipsy and literally keep it short and simple and just say what are you doing tonight like i think it should be so yeah i feel like if i need to like tonight question mark period yeah seven o'clock whatever yeah free yeah i like that I don't ask tonight, question mark, period. Yeah. Seven o'clock, whatever. Yeah. Free. Yeah.

I like that because it's casual. I like the idea of like the point during tonight as opposed to like the what are you doing tonight? Because I feel like that could maybe be misinterpreted as like, right. Come on. I kind of just want to hook up because I think you should go. I think even what are you doing? A question is more passive. And I just think in this situation, she should be less passive.

It's I'm bored. What are you doing? Yeah. There should be some kind of like, I got nothing better to do. Or like literally you up. I mean, that's kind of funny.

Yeah. No, that's like something that kind of like something that he's going to get and go to the fuck boy. Just text me. Yeah. Like, like,

like he's getting a taste of his own medicine at his own game. Yeah. This whole like Demir, like, Hey, what are you doing this weekend? Like, fuck boy just texted yeah like like he's getting a taste of his own medicine at his own game yeah this whole like demir like hey what are you doing this weekend like that's just not that's what he's used to that won't surprise him and again this is game playing so just we right yeah we know you are you are saying you're willing to play a little bit of a game and we're just saying play it it's fine to play a little but like you gotta have some boundaries self control

yeah yes boundaries for yourself if there's no response it's just no then you're fucking done yeah

girl yeah then you're done yeah you're on literally two apps keep going yes trucking along

go have a girls night go out what's the biggest city closest to you well I live in one that's about like 45 minutes away it's like

50,000 people great yeah that's not that far you're also in a plane nick's like change your location on hinge to new york honestly i'm gonna tell you something open that open your fucking the little parameters on miles talk to people from all over i couldn't agree more yeah like open it up. Why not? We might as well take advantage of the technology it gives us

and it brings a lot of bad things, but like... Why not? You're on the dating app already, so don't pigeonhole yourself into like your hometown. No, just make sure you FaceTime real quick

so you don't get like catfish and shit like that. Yeah, don't be... And have some fun. It's just good practice to talk with people. You know, it's fun to meet someone far away and just talk to them over the phone.

They live in a cool city. Then that's two birds, one stone. There you go. And you already travel for work. So, like, you're on the road. Yeah. Yeah. Make it about you.

I can't stress enough that I don't think you should invest a lot of time in him. All right. On to the next. He most almost certainly just started kind of hanging out with someone. Yeah. And then she was like, unmatch these people, you know. Oh, yeah. Because that's what girls do.

That's what we do. You've never met a guy? No. I haven't. When you first started dating someone, you aren't like, are you still in the apps? I feel like it's a very common question. No. I feel like I typically don't say anything, but they'll say something to me first.

Yeah, because they're usually the more insecure ones anyway. You guys aren't normies. You're TV stars. This is how we've always been. I can promise you that. TV, yes. I don't know about the star part, but- Oh, I'm a star.

Yeah, you're a star. Have fun with it. The moment you start going, you get confused or if it makes you feel worse about yourself or just kind of makes you feel icky. You just move on. It's that's not a signal to your body to do more. It's a signal to your body to let go. If it's not fun,

shut it off. Just shut it off. It's not worth your time. Yeah. Who's trying to be at and fight or flight this early on. Yeah. All right. All right. All right. Good luck. Keep us posted. All time. Yeah. Who's trying to be at in fight or flight this early on? Yeah. All right. All right.

All right. Good luck. Keep us posted. All right. Bye. All right. With the time that we have left,

can we talk some summer house shit? Yeah. I have like rapid fire questions. Oh my God. Genevieve's a, she's been,

I'm an OG summer house fan. Oh wow. I used to work at nbc and my first day going into the office they were all talking about it and i was like what the fuck are we talking about and i watched like all four seasons that had come out at that point in like three days because i was like i have to fit in i was like the show is awesome okay are we ready okay go ahead okay let's see nothing too mean okay don't worry don't worry okay we're literally

called the mean girls welcome to be mean no we're literally called the mean girls okay okay no no no i i won't be too harsh um who do you think is the worst cast member i'm just kidding don't answer that yeah i was like um okay so obviously filming the new season right now winter house is probably coming out in a few months is there anything you can tease to us about that like are there any new cast members? Are there any big drama plot points? I can't tease a damn thing in hopes of keeping

my job. In hopes of keeping my job. And yeah, I can't even say anything. How are you even in LA right now? Well, we took a plane. Yeah, I'm leaving tomorrow night and getting back to New York

Thursday at like 1 a.m. Okay, just in time for Summer Friday to drive out. Maybe. Okay. What's the relationship

like us here with you and Lindsay? Since you both were apparently, according to my notes, were hooking up with Austin? Nick.

Is that true? Nick, Nick, Nick. We're actually good. We're on the up and up. We? Nick. Is that true? Nick, Nick, Nick. We're actually good. We're on the up and up. We are good. Deciding to put some of this past drama aside. I think everyone's tired of hearing about that guy. And I'm tired of talking about him.

I'm not harping on it anymore. We're moving on. You know, Lindsay's about to get married. It's in our past. It wasn't like our brightest moment, but we're moving on. I wanted to ask about the wedding. Do you think there's going to be anyone that doesn't get an invite? Yeah, yeah, for sure. You say who? No. Okay. Do you think Lindsay and Danielle's relationship is salvageable? Because like that was my scandal of all like I saw them meet.

That was like heartbreaking last summer i think so but it's gonna take time like danielle's definitely she's capricorn we tend to hold grudges for sure but i think that we're sharing such a special experience like you kind of always find your way back to a person i think and they've been friends for so long so yeah slowly but surely bring me up to speed what was the drama she had some opinions about so she being danielle danielle okay lindsey is now engaged to carl i got that okay danielle and carl carl's like correct but that was like the original years i don't even think should be part of the conversation what the fact that they dated danielle and carl dated i think it should be i don't think

that has anything to do with the breakdown no but, but no. OK, so now Lindsay and Carl engaged. Danielle had some opinions on their new relationship last summer and she vocalized them. And, you know, Lindsay kind of perceived that as it not being supportive of her relationship. I can see why. Yeah. And how could, even if it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they dated, how could it not be interpreted that way? I just feel like there was, but to me, there was like always this like underlining,

like basically suggestion that Danielle was jealous of the relationship that Lindsay and Carl had. And I really don't think her voicing her concerns was from a place of that makes sense like that's why I'm making the distinction Danielle was very much in her own happy relationship at the time yeah she wasn't ever like fiending for Carl

or like team Danielle well she's not a yes friend which I actually appreciate Danielle's not a yes friend so like everything that stands around yeah she stands her ground she has an opinion and I think that that's great but it's a matter of timing and and like being a little more eloquent delivery tact yes all those things that uh sometimes were disregarded just not there yes yeah okay yeah as someone who's become recently a bravo fan you know i come from a different kind of reality TV world where it's like this bubble you're in.

And once you're in it, once you're out of it, you're out of it. And it's not meant necessarily to be recurring. You know, obviously, we've a lot of us have gone back for different iterations of The Bachelor and the show. But with Summer House or Vanderpump or Housewives, it really seems like the lines are very much blurred between your life and the show absolutely i you know and i know some vanderpump i have some of them are friends of mine and it's just like when i talk to them about like their lives a lot of times it just feels like they're talking to me about the show but it's just their life but then at the same time i'm thinking like you know with vanderpump obviously historically incredibly incestual and it's

just like i'm thinking to myself why do you guys keep fucking each other you know like there's so many other people but then i i wonder like how much like subconsciously are their decisions that they're making they're doing it for the show without even thinking i'm doing it for the show it's like at this i'm fascinated by the psychology of it all. Yeah, the bravo sphere is incestual. And I think yeah, you have that perspective where it's almost easier to relate to someone who's in it. Exactly. As opposed to

going and finding someone who's normal. Or like dating a fan of the show. Right. Or dating a fan of the show. So, yeah. When they pretend not to know you? Yeah, correct. I've never watched your show. And then they're like, so how's Kyle? And it's like, wait, what? No, but like the guy with blonde hair.

I don't know who he is. They slip up and you always catch on. You're like, so you never. Yeah, it's easier to date someone who's in it. They understand it. They know what filming's like. There's nothing that I have to explain to you. So I kind of see how they all sleep together.

And our show is a little bit incestual not really my style it was something I kind of had to figure out when I got there and you know hands off on it now but I don't know I just kind of easier it's easier yeah I saw this uh as a bravo babes uh tweet account Bravo Babes has been very giving for Bravo News. If you're out there, Bravo Babes, thanks. Bravo Cocktails. But Caitlin Collins, she's like the up and up on CNN. She is apparently like hanging out with Shep.

Is that the girl in the green skirt? Well, in this picture, it's just the back of her. It's just the back of them. But Caitlin Collins, she's like the young, like up and coming talent on CNN. She's like a big deal. Like CNN. Yeah. I don't know.

Us reality TV people, we're not usually like... Yeah, headline. We're like... Really? Yeah. Scum. Yeah. That's what it'd be so...

Well, as I say, when it comes to uh we we we are granted a ton of access and and zero credibility yeah we have to usually overcome that second part yeah making do with that but have you so you guys are unaware you don't know hey i don't have any tea on these two people i don't how how how connected or how much rumors do you guys hear between shows? I mean, I think we hear more than the average person, obviously. I follow all the Bravo accounts, but I saw that Brynn from Real Housewives of New York had mentioned that she was into Shep. And then there was like a girl in the background of a photo that he posted and everyone thought it was her.

And then she was like, I would never be caught dead wearing that outfit. And it turns out it was Miss CNN. You know, Miss CNN's outfit is really my biggest takeaway of this photo. They all skip leg day. It's like the pants are falling off bro.

No but. They all skip leg day in Charleston. Yeah. Or like ass day. I don't know but listen she needs to hold on

just hold on. I don't know you know that seems risky. Is Shep a he's a risk he's a flight risk. Well but he says it and he owns it like he's having fun't know. That seems risky. He's a risk. He's a flight risk. But he says it and he owns it.

He's having fun. How old is Shep? Maybe she is too. There's just a couple of fuckboys hanging out. Just hang out on the couch. Don't hang out outside. I just hate people speculating. Correct. Obviously I'm in the wrong industry.

Are they holding hands there? They're close enough that they could be.'re not speculating on the fact that they are hanging out it looks like a close walk his hand looks empty is that New York City yeah it looks like he's grabbing for her hand her hands in front of her they're very close no they're probably doing that like

cute flirty walk where you like graze each other's arms and shit hold on to a finger yeah like a full hand yeah can't do too much in public but we know we don't know anything about that okay i had another question do you guys actually like lover boy yes i love the limoncello you love i love the spritz but i'm very i tell them all the time like my favorites or i'm like the spritz this i didn't love the limoncello a passion fruit guava is my favorite yeah they're like three or four flavors that i really fuck with yeah i love the espresso martini ones but they're so hard to get and they're so strong yeah yeah yeah nights off of

those it's like two drinks i was never an espresso martini drinker until i started on summer house and i remember like my first few dinners you guys all shit on me for not ordering espresso martinis with you and i was like fuck it i'll just order an espresso martini and now i drink that shit all the time now kyle canned it and it's like yeah i've never been to the hamptons is it like worth it no no it's really not okay i don't think i was actually having this chat well i mean like i love new york and every time i go to new york the last thing i want to do is like drive two hours if i want to go to the last thing I want to do is like drive two and a half hours if I wanted to go to the country I'd go to like fucking Wisconsin

I think you're better off there I don't think the Hamptons is super picturesque you know I think it's one of these things that New Yorkers have just done for a while and it's nostalgic something to say you did yeah but I don't think their beaches are amazing unless you're going to like

what's his name Mike Rubin's, the Hamptons are not that special. Yeah. Are we being fired? I love that for me. All right, we started heavy, we'll end heavy. How do you feel the most misunderstood for both of you? Where do people get you wrong? I think having such a sarcastic, dry humor does not serve me well.

So it's very, first off, I'm an acquired taste, period. I'm hard to understand. It takes a minute to really warm up and understand if I'm even fucking with you. So I get that. But I think it's just the humor of me, my essence, how funny I really am. And your humility. And my humility humility we love a humble girl is yeah it just gets lost and also that it compassed with the fact that like we are portrayed to be literally like dumb as rocks yeah on the show yeah i and that and that's everyone yeah you know do you think it's particularly you guys take an extra no I would say like

generally speaking they don't like yeah they don't yeah reality TV is not looking they love a dumb moment I remember like last I didn't know what a lobotomy was oh god and they're like but you're nurse and I was like that isn't yeah an outdated procedure I've never

dealt with a post lobotomy patient and I can't tell you the specifics of it. So sorry. Then they're like questioning if I'm even an actual nurse. I'm like, it's not a real procedure. And you have like a wealth of medical information. You really do. I call you for everything. Yeah. Like I'm a fucking ICU nurse. I worked all throughout COVID. Saving lives. Yeah. Like, yeah. But, you know, whatever. But you didn't lobotomize

anyone but i didn't lobotomize anyone i was like no but i can fucking run a code if i needed to that's why we watch reality tv though yeah to disengage from reality judge other people yeah right it's like react watching reality tv for the people who love it and i love that you love it y'all because you listen to this show. And I love reality TV. But if we're being honest with ourselves, like it's easier to judge other people than not judge ourselves. And reality TV is really just, again, that reality TV. And it's a glimpse into all the fucking fuckery and silliness that we do in that kind of dumb

moments that even smart people, to your point, will say like dumb shit. Yeah. Because like we're not all encyclopedias yeah everyone just like skipped a day in the sixth grade we're just like i'm sorry about a fucking lobotomy yeah and like it's just i didn't need to know there's literally no reason why i needed to know that but now now now i know but i also think i think for me people on react i think people would say that i'm like have this super hard exterior and i'm like a bitch and i'm not nice probably and i'm not like warm and fuzzy and three out of a few of those could be true but i think it's more like i am naturally guard well i'm not warm and fuzzy

no i'm not warm and fuzzy but it's just like i'm i'm just not interested that or like i'm walking into a room i don't need to be the center of attention like i walk into a room sometimes and i'm analyzing everything that's going on in the room so no i'm not going to be like the most outgoing version of myself i'm also catching vibes vibes. I'm a little hype. I'm very hypervigilant. So I'm just assessing at all times, always. So there's like a lot of shit running through my head and that might get in the way of like, oh, my light, fun personality with my real friends. I'm also, yeah, like with my real friends who I'm most comfortable with. that's so different than me just walking into a room and you not getting the reaction that you thought i was going to be or like what you thought or or what they think i am on tv or how you should be what's your resting

gaze look like what's your you know your resting face what's yours what's all let's see our resting face do your resting face no mine. I look like I hate everyone. I've been watching. I've like never looked at myself so much. Oh, yeah. I look like I hate all of you. It's really bad. Mine is just.

Yeah, she does. She looks like she hates me. A little indifferent to the situation. So like when we would film the first season, Amanda would say to me, platypus, like you look like a bitch right now. Like we'd be in scene and she'd be like, you need to fix your face. A lot of times they cut together our facial expressions,

which I think is such a cheap shot. It's like normally I'm not even listening to you. No, they're filming all your facial expressions. And I'm super expressive. We make crazy faces. But when I'm trying to actually just be like engaged in situation like someone could be talking it's always like some emotional moment where i'm gonna get my eyebrows up here or something because like people aren't happy maybe that's it yeah i always look i didn't realize i

how grumpy i look constantly i know i debated i was like should i do like a little injection on the side of my mouth because i'm just like like, I look like a human 24-7. Embrace it. You know what I think is weirder? Everyone has a resting bitch face. I think it's weird for people that walk around in public. Yeah. My sister does that.

I think that's so weird. Well, when I moved to New York, I would smile at people on the street and then nobody would smile back. And I'd be like, well, I just wasted a whole smile on someone. And then in the next block, they say you should smile more should smile more yeah i'm like if you tell me to smile now aren't you having fun yeah i was like right i really was enjoying myself uh who in your cast maybe skipped more school than they should have like they also don't know what lobotomize it means and who skipped more school than they should have sometimes i would say kyle

but he's so fucking smart and he's like yeah but he's just like a big goof and is always just saying stupid shit yeah he doesn't take himself too seriously so he doesn't present himself as such so it can feel a little light at times but but he is smart he went to school he will tell you all the time yeah also humble yeah also humble yes yeah uh ladies this has been so fun yeah yeah blast you guys have a podcast yes which i'll be on yeah soup's excited can't wait yeah we're we're dating plug away yeah we're getting our time in with you while we're in California. It's called Codependence. You can follow us on IG at Codependence with a T-S two underscores and TikTok and on YouTube. We just kind

of talk about dating, being in the city, trying to figure our shit out. We don't have the answers to much, but we'll talk it through. So people can live vicariously through you. Yeah. Yeah. We try to, you know, offer our dating mishaps, but also just family,

life, work, work, nursing, cooking. Yeah. Okay. Try to do a little bit of everything.

Well, everyone go follow their show. Go follow them. And where can they find you on social? My Instagram is Sierra Miller with three underscores. I'm M Y Allen. Okay. Where are those underscores at the end?

Beginning, middle? Sierra Miller, three underscores at the end. Okay. Okay. Two or three. How do you feel about those underscores at the end? Beginning? Middle? Sierra Miller, three underscores at the end. Okay. Okay. Two or three. How do you feel

about those underscores? I fucking hate them. I only have the underscores because Sierra, that bitch. It's Sierra. She took my name. Well, she sold her.

I took her name. Well, it's been a pleasure getting to know you ladies. I'm sorry about your Instagram handle. Yeah, it's okay. Everyone go follow their podcast.

I'm going to be on it, so obviously it's going to be great. Super humble over here. Don't forget to send those questions at asknickatthevilefiles.com for all things Ask Nick, texting Office Hours,

mediation, you know the drill. We are going to be live tonight at 9 p.m. Eastern for another episode of Better Date Than Never. Be sure to tune in to that. We are also dropping an update special behind Vile Files Plus tomorrow. So for all of you who love those updates,

we have a bunch more. Get excited. They're great. Just go to vilefiles.com to sign up for Vile Files Plus. It's free to sign up. Like, come on. Like, what are you doing? You're missing out. Bye.