The Viall Files - E671 Ask Nick - Should I End My Marriage?

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Ask Nick Edition! We’re back to answer your burning questions about the world of dating and relationships. Before getting to our callers, we discuss disenfranchised men and whether or not there’s a divide between young men and women in modern dating? We then get to our callers.  Our first caller is wondering whether a lot of little things add up to a non-negotiable, or is that Girl Math, because she’s considering ending her marriage. She’s not sure whether her grievances with her husband are pet-peeves or a deeper underlying issue in their relationship, and wants to know if it’s a marriage worth fighting for. Our second caller wants to get back together with the love of her life, but he’s currently dating the girl her ex cheated on her with. They broke up because of infidelity on her part, but she feels she’s worked on herself and is ready to start fresh with him. However, is it too late? Our final caller is wondering whether she should shoot her shot with a guy who has a boyfriend. She initially met him at a time when she was in a relationship, but remembers having instant chemistry with him. She’s now single, and wondering if she should reconnect with him, despite his relationship status.  “You can’t base the rest of your life on someone’s potential.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  Join us for our new LIVE show on Thursdays at 9PM ET/6PM PT on Amp, available in the Apple app store and https://www.onamp.com for Android listeners. To Order Nick’s Book Go To: https://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line!  To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Highland Titles - Go to https://www.HighlandTitles.com and use the discount code VIALLFILES to get 25% off your order. Caraway - Visit https://www.Carawayhome.com/VIALL to take advantage of this limited-time offer for up to 20% off your next purchase. Caraway. Non-Toxic cookware made modern. Grammarly - You’ll be amazed at what you can do with Grammarly. Go to https://www.grammarly.com/PODCAST to download for FREE today. Skylight Frame - As a special, limited time offer for our listeners, get $15 off your purchase of a Skylight Frame when you go https://www.SkylightFrame.com/FILES.   Drizly - Download the Drizly app or go to https://www.Drizly.com. Drizly, the go-to app for alcohol delivery. Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell @genevievegoodman

Now it's time for a word from our show sponsors, Highland Titles. Imagine that you, yes, you can be a lord or lady for just $30. Buying a plot of land from highlandtitles.com will allow you to make use of Scottish traditions in which land owners are given a courtesy title. All you have to do is buy one square foot of land from the Highland Titles Estate in Scotland for just $30 and you'll become a lord or lady of the glen. You'll get a legal right of ownership to your land, which you can visit anytime. You can also buy two plots of land next to each other, which makes a really popular gift for couples. The Highlands is known as one of the most romantic places in the world, and thousands of people have been to visit their plots. It's a really cool gift that was featured in the Everyone

Wins gift bag that was given to all the Oscar nominees last year. Check it out at HighlandTitles.com and use the discount code VileFiles to get 25% off your order. Again, that's HighlandTitles.com with discount code VileFiles to get 25% off your order. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files Ask Nick edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by the OG household, Allie, Amanda, and Derek. What's cracking, everybody? Pew, pew, pew.

Pew, pew, pew. OG household, wow. Anywho, I hope you all had a great uh and wonderful thanksgiving uh wherever you were i think i said that on oh by the way exciting news this friday update special for everybody and you know you're gonna hear me say it if you're thirsting for more because i know you all i know you all love those updates hundreds of thousands of you guys listen to the update specials available to all and there's i don't know what 17 18 available update specials now somewhere in that ballpark behind val files plus so so many great updates oh did we drop the um that one update yet the first ever a first yeah we Is that what you mean? Yeah. We dropped it on Friday.

Oh, yeah. So do you guys remember the caller where a wonderful gentleman called in because he had cheated on his girlfriend sexting with an online personality? I guess we'll just say that. He called with an update. Then the OG girlfriend, the girlfriend, who is a vile, vile stan, heard the call. Now, we suspected that part of his whole reason of reaching out in the first place was knowing that she would. Listen. Listen and hear it.

Well, as you might expect, a visceral reaction was had. And she reached out to us. And she called in with an update of her own oh other side of the story another side of the story yeah what we always ask for is like sometimes we're like we wish we could hear the other side we literally got it yeah we got it and it's available behind vile files plus and it's so good and honestly vile files plus is free to sign up so if all you do is go ahead and sign up for free to hear that update, we'll be disappointed,

but it's your right. So go ahead and sign up for Vile Files Plus right now. Do yourself a favor, check out all the Vanderpump recaps we have available wrapping up season two. And every Friday,

we drop our pop extras, which is a lot of pop culture conversations, all the things we didn't get to during the week of classics. So anyway, it's really good. It's really juicy. But either way, there is a update special for everyone this Friday. We have an amazing episode for you lined up today.

Our first caller really struck me. I don't want to give too much away, but it's a married woman who's struggling in her marriage. much away but it's a married woman who's struggling in her marriage and uh throughout at some point in the conversation he you know she was just kind of talking about things he would say to her and his expectations as a man in a heterosexual relationship granted this is a married couple not even a couple that's dating and at some point our caller said that she i remember him being 29 i think it was her husband was 29. And he said, I think he hates women. And it really made me think.

And I am concerned about the young men of this world. I truly am. I think they're getting left behind. I don't know what's going on. I'm not, I have ideas and opinions of what's causing it. I posted a TikTok and as often as the call, the case, it was a woman I was speaking to talking about her boyfriend. So if you listen to the TikTok,

it's, I'm referring to her partner as a him, right? So it sounds like I'm, you know, saying, you need to stop letting him take you for granted'm, you know, saying, you need to stop letting him take you for granted or, you know, so, you know, it sounds like I'm coming down on men on this TikTok, right? A lot of comments. And there was a comment, and I see a lot of this on our page from time to time. I see it floating on the internet, but there's a man who posted on the comment thread, and it said, only if you were 29, Nick, if you understood what my generation's women

are doing to men, you would be dumbfounded. Now, I don't agree. But what my point is, I see these types of comments a lot. So whether I agree or disagree or anyone in this room agrees or disagree, it seems to be a growing sentiment among young men. And that is concerning. And as a guy whose fiance is about to give birth to a daughter, I don't know what, you know, if my daughter grows up and decides to date men and is a heterosexual woman, I'm concerned about what's going to be available to her uh when she starts dating i have a question for you shoot so you're saying there's like you get comments like that frequently i just see it around i mean i don't you know but there's there's a a growing sentiment of

frustrated and disenfranchised men i haven't been studying this i don't know what's going on do you have like a gut reaction? Because it is interesting that some people are really reacting to the kind of climate right now within dating. Here's what I don't think it is. Right. For example, there's a lot of there's a lot of, you know, people talk about like incel groups and things like that. I don't even want to echo this person's name because I don't want to platform them. But there is a bald

headed man individual who has a fighting background who has very polarizing takes and often thought as misogynistic and a sex trafficker and has a cult-like following of mostly men. I think some women probably listen to him.

You know, I don't know. And I think there's a lot of people out there that would say, well, that's why these guys are the way they are. They're listening to men like him. Toxic, masculine men are teaching these. And I'm just here to say, well, that's terrible.

That's not the cause. That's the effect. How do you radicalize someone? You find the disenfranchised. You find the people who have no community, feel alone, feel like the world doesn't understand their plight, and you go to them and say, I have an answer for you. And that answer is hatred or whatever, bigotry and sexism and things like that. But these guys, right? Yeah, they have a power

influence and they've attracted a large audience but they didn't start this revolution they were able to grain the following they have because what they're saying is resonating with men who feel like no one else is listening to them we talk to mostly women all right and we hear a lot of stories from a lot of shit today a man and i talked to a a woman who's in a marriage and i can't wait for you guys to hear this episode is fucking wild but like she's in this marriage where oh my god it felt so bad for her you know like total bullshit we literally you know i want to give it away yeah we can't give it away but it was like it was whack whack stuff that she was putting up with so this is not to say that like we understand that there's a lot of bad partners out there for men.

And prior to Me Too and things like that, a lot of men were getting away with a lot of crappy stuff. And you don't have to go that far back in history to find an era where, what was it? Like, what, 1970? Women couldn't get credit cards or some crazy shit like that. You know, it's like, we're not that far removed from some drastic problematic ways of our society. You know, young men who weren't alive in the 1970s or the fifties or the sixties and things like that, young men who only known, you know, if you were 13 or 14 in 2016, you know what I'm saying? You know, and you've grown up in a world that seems to feel like men suck and men are this and you just need to shut up and you just need to

do this and you just need to do that and then put yourself in the shoes of a young man who, this is what they hear out on the internet all the time. Yeah. And I think, I think it's honestly, it's hard for me personally to consider this viewpoint because I think so often I come at this from the experience and like sort of the outlook of

seeing ways that like structurally, like this isn't an even playing field, so to speak. This isn't like two sides with equal power kind of going up against one another. There's some real relevant

context in terms of like who holds, you know, and I'm not trying to like relitigate that. It's just to say that I think it can be really hard to look at or like for me as a woman, especially as a queer woman, it's really hard for me to even like entertain the idea that like, oh, maybe we should be nicer to the guys because it's like, well, we still feel really unsafe in all these situations. And I think sometimes there is this real sentiment of, OK, sorry, we're like venting and saying you suck. We're getting like killed or like we are being assaulted, you know. And so I think it's a really challenging conversation to engage in because the stakes feel incredibly high on one side.

That being said, I did have kind of like an eye opening moment when my therapist was saying like with her, she has sons who are in their teens and she was saying like men are going through a crisis of purpose right now because before it was like very clear cut the expectations of you to financially support your family and like be a man and wait for better or for worse for worse you know i tend to fall a lot more on the worst side of things but there i think people who we can admit society was functioning in such a way where there were very clear expectations for what men were supposed to bring to the table what women were supposed to bring to the table and now we've kind of we're in the process of dismantling that which is so positive

in a lot of different ways but it does leave this kind of question for men. Is it all positive? I don't think it's all been all positive. I mean, clearly it hasn't been all positive. Yeah. I don't think it's been seamless. Again, I'm not here to figure out how we fix this in this conversation. I'm just, it's more like, do we need, we need to start looking at this. And I think we need to try to find out a better way of approaching these types of conversations more carefully so that we don't lose an entire generation of young men. So that, you know, fast forward five, 10 years from now, the disconnect between men and women is so large. We want to close that divide, that gap, and better understand where the other side is coming from

in hopes that we can make better connections. And if you're a heterosexual person, you want to meet someone of the opposite sex to form a connection and a relationship. And it is only getting harder and harder. And when we look at gender roles, it's not just saying don't force women to be stay-at-home moms, let them work if they want to.

It's also don't force men to work. Let them be stay at home dads if they want to. Or at the same time, it's also don't force women who want to stay at home or men who want. You know what I'm saying? Totally. I don't think this is the time to try to figure this out. It's just more when I was and you'll hear what I'm talking about this caller. It's just like it seemed like they had a disconnect between he it's like what he thought was expected of him as a husband. And you, you'll hear me say,

like, I, you know, he doesn't think things, this is fair. Like, I think a lot of men feel like it's unfair. Now I don't come from that generation. My advice to her is to tell him that like, he, you know, stop worrying about life's not fair. He needs to step up, be a man, blah, blah, blah. And like, you know, and I feel like if I were talking to him, he would would tell me you don't get where i'm coming from you don't understand my plight you don't understand you know you don't there's like this comment like you don't know what it's like out here nick you know you don't only be 29 and i don't know what it's like yeah it's it's a really interesting question i just think it's something as a society we should just be like all i'm saying is this is not the time to figure it out i don don't, I certainly don't have the answer, but I think we should start acknowledging that there is a problem and that

if we keep going down this path, things aren't going to get better. They're going to get worse for everybody. Because if you're a heterosexual person who wants to be in a healthy, committed relationship, it's getting harder and harder to find qualified partners because the gap between the frustrations of men and women is only getting larger. And it's getting harder and harder for these two groups, men and women, to empathize and understand each other. And we have a society that keeps telling us that you have the right to be mad and the other side is wrong. I mean, again, we live in a society where everything's black and white, good or evil. And that's just a problem with our society in general. But when it comes to dating and relationships and connections, I like you have every right to process that anger, but like the difference between processing that versus making kind of overarching like policy statements. Like go back to 1960 or whatever it was. There was a lot of problems with that world

relative to how we think of it now. Again, let's sexism and things like that, but also it was a culture of where men weren't allowed to express feelings. Yeah. They're supposed to push their feelings down, you know, and now we're being told that it's more okay. And the feelings that men are expressing are, they're also being told, men are simultaneously right now are saying, hey, as a man, don't be a toxic man, express your feelings. And they express their feelings. And then they're told to shut the fuck up.

And I'm telling you, whether that's true or not, that's how men feel. Some men feel. How some men feel. I would say how too many men feel. I just think the overall sentiment is that the appetite to hear about the plight of men, there isn't one. Yeah. Well, it kind of feels like this cycle where it's like, we don't want to hear about, you're not listening to what women are saying about why things need to change or why women feel deserved or scared or whatever else. You're not listening to that. And so then we don't want to listen to you and you end up with this really big divide. Yeah. And if the goal is to come together and, and create an environment

where men and women are getting more and more on the same page, because honestly, five or six years ago, I thought the direction we were going, you know. I thought as a young man, I was better understanding women. I had more women friends. I was learning about their struggle. And I felt like that's the direct... And I think recently, with the culture and environment we have as a society, like most other things, we just... We find what group we identify in we start othering each other we start pointing out why our group's better than your group or why you're right and i'm wrong and vice versa and i think it's leading to an epidemic whether it's right or wrong and whether they have a reason to but it's an epidemic of angry frustrated disenfranchised men that right now

the only people who are listening to them are these very toxic and dangerous men who are spewing this very dangerous and toxic rhetoric yeah and if you're getting radicalized yeah because they feel like no one else gives a shit that's the playbook of how you radicalize anyone so i don't know i have my concerns concerns. I want to have more conversations about that. I'm curious about it. I want to talk to more men. I'm worried. I'm worried. As a father of a daughter who might date men, I have my concerns. I think that very much the point of this is to say this is something where it's really hard to have a conversation about it because for good reason, people can feel very strongly about their right to condemn a system that was horrible. But there's a lot of social byproducts of that. And so like this is meant to be starting the conversation, not definitively saying one thing or another. It's just recognizing that there is a problem. Yeah. And so we would love to like let, we would love to hear what you guys think. Yeah. We have a great episode for you. Don't forget to send in those questions

at asknickatthevilefiles.com for all things texting, office hours, mediation, all of the above. We have a wild, wild, wacky week lined up for you. We got Reality Recap tomorrow. Get ready for that.

And this Thursday, I don't want to give it away yet. We'll spoil it tomorrow on Reality Recap. But if you're, well, I'm just not, I don't want to give it away yet we'll tell we'll spoil it tomorrow on reality recap but if you're well I'm just I'm not gonna say anything it's a good one it's a good one it's a good one there will be a spicy

sizzle let's get to work on it let's ask Nick your sexy questions how's it going hi I'm Sophia and I'm 28 and I'm just wondering if a lot Ask Nick your sexy questions. How's it going? Hi, I'm Sophia and I'm 28. And I'm just wondering if a lot of little things add up to a non-negotiable because I'm considering ending my marriage.

Okay. Tell us more. So we met five years ago. We have had a few ups and downs along the way and then we decided to get married this June and since then not surprisingly things have not been getting better so you just got married in June okay and then leading up to your marriage like how are you feeling in the months leading up to your marriage not very good I was trying to listen to my body, as you suggest that I do. And I was really trying to tune in and figure out if the way that I was feeling was because I was doing the wrong thing,

or because I was nervous. And I was trying to pinpoint a reason to maybe not go through with the marriage and i just couldn't really like blame anything and so i don't i don't believe that the grass is always greener so i kind of just like went through with it and at this point i don't know what to do okay what are all these little things that you are not sure if they're non-negotiables or pet peeves? Okay. And also, I don't know if these are going to be little things in your opinion. So I'm really, really appreciate your help. And I'm excited to see what you think. But the way that we want to raise kids is like slightly different. So when it comes to like the people I love in my life and all of these things, I want to like give them everything.

So when we raise kids, if they want to try different sports or do different things, I want to be able to give these things to them, including like maybe help pay for college. And like if they want to live at home, they can live rent free type of thing. But my husband feels the exact opposite. Phil's the exact opposite. And he thinks that like kids should be told no a lot. And, you know, should have to like anyone who's an adult should have to pay rent to live with their parents and all of these things. So it's like, I don't know, we're just not on the same page with that with child raising. Okay, what else? So when it comes to money, he wants to split things 50 50. And I'm more on the side where like, I want to pay for all of something and then he can like pay for all of something else type of thing. So like he would cover the mortgage and then I would pay for like

all of our kids sporting events and like groceries or something like that. But he brought up to me the last two months that he wants to start splitting our rent payment. And so that's just kind of rubbed me in the wrong, like the wrong way. And I've been feeling like maybe we're heading down this roommate path that I'm not super interested in. It's not very romantic to me. So, yeah, that's another thing. The money splitting. What else? So, um, some of the things that he said that he's has said, um, when we were, I think it was after we had gotten married, I asked him like, what made, what was

it that like made you want to propose to me? Cause we had been together for like four years before then, which I think is a pretty long time. And he's like, well, because you asked me to, and I wasn't really the, the, uh, answer that I was hoping for. I don't think that I expected really anything different. But he has said a few other things that are just kind of weird. Like the other day, I was like prepping for this wedding that we were going to. So I got all of his clothes and all this stuff. And when I got it, I got all this stuff for him. He's like, Oh, thank you. He's like, you know what you're really good at. And I when he said that line, I was really surprised because he doesn't necessarily give me compliments all the time.

And I was really excited to see what he thought I was really good at. He's like, you're really good at like the things that don't really matter. Oh, what did he mean by that? Um, let's see. I don't know what he meant by that um i think it's because in his mind value gosh sorry okay don't apologize your time value in his mind might come more from um like the financial side so for instance i kind of decorated our apartment that we moved in to once we got married. He had mentioned something about how that didn't really matter.

So, I just think that he doesn't necessarily see my value. Yeah. As a woman, maybe. Or as a person. So. Have you always felt this way? I mean, to me, it's just like, I'm talking to you and it's like,

I would be expecting to talk to someone who's been dating this guy for six months, not five years and also married. And so my biggest surprise is like, what got you to this point? You know? Yeah. I think what probably got you to this point, you know? Yeah. I think what probably got me to this point was

holding on to his potential. He's a really, I think that he's like a really great person, obviously, or else I wouldn't have married him. I think that he, uh, he has a great career. He, I know that he definitely loves me and there's like there's definitely these good things about him and I think that I know that he's going to be a great dad and so I just kind of held on does he have any idea how hurtful it was to you to hear for him to say that to you like does he does he have any idea I I did tell him. You did? I did tell him. What'd you say? Yeah. I don't remember what I said, but in the moment after he said that, I told him that, you know, didn't make me feel very appreciated. And I don't know, every time

that I feel like he doesn't appreciate me, I do try to tell him, but he doesn't, I don't know if he doesn't hear it or necessarily think that I'm being serious or maybe he thinks that I'm overreacting or one of those things. I'm not sure. But you don't feel like he's acknowledging, you know, your frustrations. No, I, I always expect maybe like for maybe an hour or two to go by and him being like, look, I'm really sorry for what I said. I see why that would like hurt you. But that's never happened. I'm sorry. Does he have any idea about how you're feeling right now? Yeah.

He does. He's aware that you're considering ending this marriage. He's aware that you're considering ending this marriage. Yeah. I think both of us are at the point where we're unsure if this is like a good idea to stay in it. Okay. Well, if I were talking to him, what would he, what would his frustrations be? His would be that I don't offer to pay for more stuff because we both have careers and he definitely pays for like the majority of things

you're married I know but he doesn't want to combine finances because he doesn't feel like our relationship is at a good point and so he just wants to keep them separate because I think he's expecting us to maybe not work out yeah I mean

I would agree. The splitting isn't a good sign. What do you think? You know, I mean, you sound really sad. And you sound like you don't feel like you have someone who makes you feel safe or loved or considered or appreciated. Yeah. You know, it's like when guys say a lot of dumb fucking shit that they don't realize can be hurtful at times.

I have said, I am sure, something to the effect of, you know, you're really good at like things that don't matter. I don't know. I don't remember ever saying anything close to that, but I bet I have said something to the equivalent you know um to a partner or two if nally were sitting right here she'd be like you know what this motherfucker her notes out yeah she'd be like and she remembers like the like for something like two years ago where i'm like in this one time you said this i'm like that but

that's not what i meant you know like this is all to say like yeah guys will say stupid shit the big problem is is that you should be able to say that was really hurtful and then he should immediately be like babe i'm i'm so sorry i i did not mean it that way that was a stupid thing to say i know how you say that i know how that came i realize how now how that came across you know and that's the big disconnect that I'm hearing from him. And I think that's super valid, you know, for you to feel that way. Now, granted, it sounds like you're both kind of having one foot out the door.

So like, even if you really wanted to try to make this work and you were like, you know what? I'm married. I've been this guy for five years. He's a good person. I know he's going to be a good father. There's a lot of qualities that I love about him. And there's a lot of qualities he has and the type of husband I want. So now, granted, there's a lot of things he doesn't have, but can we make that work? Can we get more connected? Can we get on the same page? Can we be a team? Can we be a couple?

You know, even if you said that to yourself and you were willing to do that, what confidence would you have that he would reciprocate? I don't know. A part of the issue, and I don't know this for sure, but he's 29. And I do think that in 10 years, he will be there. Oh, well, that's... Like, I feel like... What do you mean?

Like, in the future, like, I do feel like he'll get there. Get where? I just wish I... Like, I wasn't the one teaching him it. But where do you think he's going to be in 10 years? Yeah, when you say, I think he's going to get there in 10 years, what does that look like? Well, he could be a little bit more empathetic, I think. Maybe appreciate the value that someone can bring that's not monetary.

Maybe he'll see that later. I'm curious because I know you mentioned when Nick asked kind of like, so what's kept you in this? Like, what is this relationship kind of built on for these last five years? what's kept you in this? Like, what is this relationship kind of built on for these last five years? You said potential. And I'm curious for you if like during the relationship, there have been things where you've identified potential and it has manifested in change or like if you said, oh, you know, I see him being able to do this one day. And if there's a track record of him changing to meet the potential that you think he has? He has started to get me flowers more. Okay.

Yeah. Which is so nice. I love the flowers. You truly seem so sweet and so easy to please. And I mean that as a compliment. Like grateful. Yeah, grateful. You're like, doesn't take all that much to make you smile.

You know? Yeah. So, and he has said, he he's like you're a lot different around other people than you are around me what did you what did he mean by that i think because around other people i can be pretty um happy yeah and energetic and just like living in the moment and just yeah pretty much just having a good time are you his first girlfriend? I am I'm pretty much his only girlfriend

he's ever had yeah and I think that's why I say the 10 years thing it's like not necessarily the time but just the lack of experience so yeah hmm what do your friends and family think they're just they're very supportive supportive

of me and i think they see how they really like him for sure but i think they've seen how their relationship has affected me and they would also support us ending things okay yeah um i cried this whole time no it's okay it's hard to talk about all right let's say whether it's your husband your husband or some other guy if you were to go into like some sort of lab and you got to pick how your partner saw you, like how would you want your partner to see you? Like, who are you? You know?

I would want him to tell me the things that he likes about me because I'm a confident person. And so I know the things that I provide that are of value, but he never tells me what he thinks those things are. And last, like before we got married, he asked me what I, he's like, I haven't asked you in a while, but what have you been doing to like make yourself better? but what have you been doing to like make yourself better? He asked me this question and I was like, I was like, well, don't you see me like every single day doing stuff like at work and in the gym and all of these things. And he's like, yeah, but like what, what goal do you have that you're working towards? He's like, the last thing you were working towards was your, um, CPA.

And that was like two years ago. I was like, you don't think I've done anything for myself in two years. And so I tried to explain to him how that comment came off and how I received that type of question. And he still just hasn't fully like comprehended that that was hurtful. He's never apologized. What do you think he wants out of a partner? I don't know. I feel like he needs to date a man in some ways, like not actually, but like, I think he's looking for someone to be his. I get what you're saying. He has a very, he has a bizarre, you know, I mean, I'm hearing it from you, but he has a bizarre kind of approach to a relationship he talks to you like he's like you're one of his bros or like you're or like

you're his little brother you know exactly and it's like it doesn't seem like he has an interest in you know gassing you up and being your cheerleader. And when you go out with friends, like making you feel like you're the most beautiful person in the room, things like that, you know, make go out, want, have a desire to want to make you feel special and pretty and beautiful. Like it's what, what's, what's bizarre about him. It's just like, I get being money, I'm only motivated, you know? and it seems bizarre that he it seems pretty independent professionally and successful it sounds like and he's doing his thing so like what is his big concern like if if if you two broke up what kind of partner would he look for

i'm just curious is he gonna look for some sort of corporate amer, like business executive woman who's like, you know, making six figures and has like a 10 year plan in her career. Like, is that what he wants? I don't, I don't know. Cause it's funny because that is me. So that's not what he's looking for. Apparently he's looking for someone and he's told me this actually, which is kind of bizarre. Sometimes when I see these things out loud, I'm like, it's just like, makes it feel real. But he did mention once, he's like, if I were to ever get back into dating, I wouldn't pay for one date. He's like, I would have them pay because I need to be treated right and all this stuff. And I'm like, you can't be serious. Like, there's no way if you go back out into dating that you're not going to pay for these dates.

But it's weird. I mean, I dating that you're not going to pay for these dates. But it's weird. I mean, it's like I hate that you're married in a sense because this guy does need to be single. He needs to go out there and he needs to know what it's like. Like, what does he look like? Do you? I mean, is he? I mean, I'm asking you. I'm just how do you.

This is a weird question to ask. But. OK. Let's say you break up. I mean, I'm asking you, I'm just, how do you, this is a weird question to ask, but. Okay. Let's say you break up. And forget about his personality and his fucking bizarre things that he says and his desire to not pay for anything. But like, you're a pretty woman. Like, how do you think, how, how do you think the dating pool would respond to him being

single at first? Do you think he'd procure a lot of early dates? Yes. He definitely would not have a problem getting dates because he's tall. He's handsome. He has brown thick hair. He can grow a beard. He's a very handsome guy. So he'd be fine in getting the dates for sure. Well, he sounds like a prick. What he sounds like is a very immature man who never really had to grow up and got a girlfriend pretty early uh you guys were in a serious relationship it just moved along and moved along you got married and now you are and he doesn't know how to talk to women he doesn't know how to be a supportive partner i don't know where this kind of energy

like i don't know i don't get it i i don't i don't get it i'm not i'm not his age anymore i'm not his generation so to speak this idea like why he has such a fucking rock up his ass about paying for fucking dinners i mean i don't i wonder if he has some narrative that he's mad at women about what because i think he thinks that we're like i don't know how to explain it but i think he's mad at women just in general because his job it's like harder it's easier for a woman to get and things like that i think that bothers him a little bit what does he do he's a pilot oh okay and what do you mean by it's easier for a woman to get a job because the industry doesn't have really any.

There's pretty much no one gets turned away if you're a woman. Gotcha. In that field. Yeah. And has he been turned away at times? No, he hasn't. He just feels like he's had to work extra hard. So what?

Harder than a woman would have to. He hasn't been turned away he has a great job i feel like he doesn't walk into it like for i don't know what pilot school is like but presumably mostly male like it's and we i could talk till the cows come home about that fallacy but the point is is that he's probably not thinking about he's not really empathizing with or understanding why it's hard to be different from like other people in an industry. My I don't know, my theory is that it's just that it feels like he's he feels really undervalued. Like he feels like the value that he's bringing to the table, like money isn't being valued.

He feels like he's bad at the other stuff or like it's insignificant. And so and instead of like kind of being like, damn, maybe I'm bad at this. Maybe I can have a growth mindset about this. Maybe I can listen. Maybe I can get better. He's like, well, I'm like, it's everybody else's fault for not appreciating the way he is now. Like, I think he's insecure. And instead of like using that as an opportunity to like develop himself, he's doubling down on, well, I shouldn't actually be insecure in the first place because I do this and this is so important. Like, it seems like that's kind of his big calling card when he feels like he's being a shitty husband.

He turns to money and says like, well, no, that's how I know I'm being a good. I mean, yeah, I don't think he has a it doesn't sound like he has a self-awareness about whether he is a good or bad partner. I'm guessing if I were to talk to him and if it was just him and I, he'd have his own frustrations and gripes and whatever. If he were to say to me what you said to me about his mentality about work and, I just have to work so much harder, I would just be like, to be honest, you sound like you have a loser mentality.

So what if you work harder? I wouldn't debate whether he does or doesn't. To me, it doesn't really matter. You should have pride in the work that you put in. You should be proud of the fact that you were willing to work hard for the job that you have. And you should be proud of the fact that you were willing to outwork people regardless of whether it was fair or not. Life is never going to be fair. Get used to it. So be the type of guy or man or person or whoever you want to be who will rise to any challenge, who won't back down because the odds

seem stacked against them. Because most people are quitters. Most people are losers. And so, why don't you just go ahead and be proud of what you were willing to do for yourself and your family and your wife and just stop complaining about who it is.'s just me that's just a personal but like if i would say that to anyone i would mentor you know and and i would just be wondering like why are you so like why do you have this mindset that you're some sort of victim like well look at what you have tell me a struggle that you've really had you're a six foot whatever guy you're good looking you have a job and your biggest gripe in life is that you've had to at times in your at least in in your perception out work women that's your big gripe

right it's a little bit entitled on his part the more that i've like listened to you and kind of gotten bits and pieces of how your relationship is and how your perspective is on how um you know relationships should be approached i think the more that i've realized that he is like not exactly who i like who i wish that he was i guess or who i wish he could be well what do you think you want to do it's hard want to do? It's hard for me to say, I think you should get divorced. Clearly, there's a lot of challenges with your relationship.

There's, you have a, there's not, doesn't sound like there's a lot to work with, but you are married and you have a five-year history and we're only obviously getting bits and pieces in the limited time that we have. So I think to answer your question, your concerns are valid. These aren't pet peeves. These are valid concerns that you have.

And you're not happy. In fact, it sounds like the most miserable you are is around him. And when you think about your future with him, that's what makes you the saddest right now. I don't think you should wait around for 10 years for anyone. You can't base your rest of your life on someone's potential. And they haven't really shown you anything. That being said, I think you need just need to have a little bit more of a fuck it mentality, so to speak. You're on the verge of asking for a divorce. You kind of have nothing to lose. So as always, lead with love. I'm not saying you come in guns a blazing, you start telling them to fuck off or whatever, but I think you kind of like, hey, listen, I love you. I want this to work. I want to be clear. And again, assuming that you do, I want this to work, but I'm not happy. I don't know if you are happy. And I want to be the best wife possible for you.

I want to be the reason you want to come home. I want to make you smile. I want you to do that for me. I am willing to kind of do anything in reason that's healthy, including maybe therapy, but I want us to be more connected. I want us to be closer. I want us to be best friends. I want us to be each other's cheerleaders. I want us to be a team. Like, do you want those things? I want you to

see me a certain way. Sometimes I feel like you don't know me. You say things that are hurtful sometimes. And that's okay. Sometimes we can say things to each other that might be felt as hurtful that we don't mean, but we should be able to say that to each other and the other person should give a shit. And sometimes it feels like you don't care when you hurt my feelings. And this is all to say, do you think we can get there? Because I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I'm willing to do all the healthy approaches to make our relationship work. our relationship work. But I'm not willing to do your half. I'm not willing to do your part. And I'm not willing to do this on my own. And I'm willing to make compromises. I'm willing for us to, whether it's parenting, budget, the broom, chores, it's our job to compromise and figure it out together. Like nothing should be your job or my job. We should always be willing to participate in this relationship. And sometimes while you might normally do X, Y, or Z, and I might normally do X, Y,

or Z, we should always be willing to help the other person. And I think you just kind of put it all on the table. And it's kind of like, fuck it. What do you have to lose? I want you to really speak from the heart without any fear about what he might say or what he might think or how he might respond. Just fucking let it out. Because it sounds like you've been kind of holding on to how you really feel and tiptoeing around him and being worried about upsetting him and frustrating him. You're

at the point of... You're getting close to the point of no return. So I don't, again, don't come out and be mean and don't name call and don't yell at him, you know, don't talk at him, but truly just be honest, be kind and be careful how you say things in terms of like, hey, a lot of we and us and what you're willing to do and point out that it's a team thing, you know, it's not like you never do to do and point out that it's a team thing. It's not like you never do this. You never do that. Why don't you ever do this? You know what I'm saying? Of course. You don't want that energy. But I don't think you need to hold back about how this relationship makes you feel and how you want a relationship to make you feel and what you're no longer willing

to accept in a relationship and what you're willing to do and what you need him to do. Put it all on the table and see what he says. Okay. All right. Thank you so much. All right. Well, good luck. Yeah, that was so helpful. All right. Well, I'm glad it was. Good luck. Keep us posted for sure. And we'll go from there. Okay. Sounds good. Thank you so much, guys. Thank you. We're invested. Yes. Thank you so much for joining us. Please send us an update and hopefully we'll talk to you soon and maybe him. One way or another, we're committed to your

love journey, whether it's with him or as a newly single lady. Okay. Thank you so much, guys. We're going to follow your story. Alright. Good luck. Take care. Thanks for the call. Okay. Thank you. Alright. Bye-bye. See ya. Care way! good luck take care thanks for the call okay thank you all right bye-bye see ya caraway i have holiday shopping has started and chances are you haven't finished and if you're looking for an amazing gift for someone check out caraway because great pots and pans and bakeware

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slash podcast. That's grammarly.com slash podcast. How's it going? Good. How are you? Good. What's your name? I am Rachel. I'm 31. How can we help Rachel? The love of my life is seeing the girl my ex cheated on me with okay all right i haven't read your story yet but i feel like when we get when we get done with this call you're gonna have a completely different point of view but we'll see let's hope so let's hope so sell me on this guy being the love of your life i i assume you knew i would take exception with you referring to this person as the love of your life yeah definitely um we've dated like on and off but i'd say the biggest thing that makes me feel like he's

the one is um we've always like maintained this really like high level of respect for one another. And he has been like the person in my life that when we work through like conflict, like we never like raise a voice at each other. We always talk through things calmly. If we don't agree on things, we always see each other's point of view and we try to respect each other and just hear each other out and come to a mutual understanding, even if it's not working at the time. Okay. So he's slow to anger and willing to talk through conflict. That's a positive. We love that. But it also sounds like this is someone you've never been in a committed relationship with? No, I definitely have. You have? Oh,

so this is an ex? Yeah. Okay. What's your relationship history with him? So the easiest way to put it is we dated each other for a year. Okay. How long ago? And in that year, we had a lot of issues. And then it kind of came to a head from us talking through things. And then we didn't date for a year. I dated someone completely different. That person cheated on me with the person that... He's now seeing. Yeah. Okay. And just to like tackle that issue, do you know if the person he's seeing is aware of what she did or was she kind of collateral damage in your ex's decision to step out of the relationship? Um, I try not to speak for maybe like her mindset or the type of person that she is. But I don't know. It seems pretty complicated.

When my ex cheated on me, she was like in the picture before. And I literally walked in on them having sex. So I feel like she knows who I am, but I never saw her face. What did you say when you walked in? I've been cheated on like a lot, unfortunately, that at this this point i'm kind of like tuned out to reacting poorly i just kind of like was shocked shut the door and like quietly let myself out and then that person had run after me and tried to like be like no no no no like it was a mistake blah blah blah and meanwhile she's like upstairs gotcha wow yeah that's traumatic totally being walked in for everybody

damn it happens sure no i know all right we'll tackle that in a second but um so you dated him for a year you guys fought you broke up he broke up for a year you got cheated on when did you guys rekindle okay so in the middle of me dating the last person this guy who i i'm claiming is the love of my life let's call him mike um he came back to me in the middle of that relationship not knowing that i was dating someone and i was having issues like with my current boyfriend and i was like listen I can't just like break up with someone on a whim because like you're ready now and so I saw through that relationship obviously that guy ended up cheating on me and then Mike was there at the end being like I'm still here like I'm still

so in love with you um and I want to give this another go. And so we like talked out our issues that we had before and we kind of made some like boundaries and like, not like promises, but like just what our expectations were. And then we tried to start seeing each other and it's still kind of like, we had issues in that phase, um, again, which had to do with our boundaries and um we tried to talk it out and it was kind of like he was ready but i wasn't i was ready but he wasn't kind of situation why aren't why weren't you ready i think i was like reeling off the fact that like i just got out of a sure that relationship that had cheated on me and it was like affecting me really emotionally. And like, he was coming to the table being like, I want to be with you. And now, and I was like, I haven't processed like everything that I've been going through.

And he's like, that's okay. Like, I'm okay with that. Like we can go slow. And I would just want to try to like work it out. Um, which was obviously nice to hear, but I, I think I made the wrong choice and I probably should have taken the time, but we didn't. We just started trying to slowly see each other. Why was that the wrong choice? What happened? I just feel like I hadn't got over the emotions from my last relationship. It was really toxic and put me in a total tailspin. And I had this person that was like so emotionally available for me and I wasn't emotionally available like at all. It felt like in hindsight.

And then I was trying to go into this relationship knowing that was all my feelings and like having open conversations with him. And I think it just like messed with his head, not to mention that that ex kept like finding new numbers and reaching out to me and trying to call me, which made him second guess me. And then, yeah, it just kind of turned ugly from there. How did that end? Really poorly. Essentially, what had happened is I had a low character moment and I was tired of being like. Accused of the situation, plus he had turned to like substances to like kind of numb all of his pain and like wasn't talking to me and opening up to me but then was having issues with this

guy reaching out and then i ended up cheating on him which i never thought i would do with who With who? With Vex. Yeah, tough. So messy. So what I'm hearing is, all right, you got cheated on. That relationship was toxic. It fucked you up, understandably so. At the time where you got cheated on, you almost kind of shut down. You didn't really process. You had been cheated on before.

You try to almost kind of white knuckle it and muscle through your feelings and not really acknowledge them mike showed back up was begging for your love and affection and finally almost convincing you like because you were like hey i'm not sure if i'm ready but it's like no we can take it slow which i got no problem with taking it slow even though everything's not perfect like there was a world where you could have made that work you know it might have had to go much slower than mike would have wanted to but regardless and then but in the meantime while this is all going on your ex your toxic ex is reaching out to you which is fucking up mike's trust and it seems kind of shady and it's like why is this guy working out like keep reaching out and he's insecure about what's going on. It's making him not trust you,

which makes you feel bad and judged, et cetera, et cetera. But your solution to that was to prove Mike, right. By, by doing the thing that offended you. I nodded myself for what I did.

I get that. But I'm just like, how did I am generally curious, like when you could go back to that moment of like what made you, when you were kind of at that breaking point and I don't know how you got in a situation with the ex that even allowed you to cheat, you know, but I'm assuming he reached out, begged you to meet up with him, et cetera, et cetera. Did you run into him? In that moment, like what were you thinking or feeling?

Like in the moment, essentially he kept reaching out and I was blocking all the new numbers. And like at the moment that I made that decision, I was really angry because the boundary that we had made was based on substances before. And Mike was spinning out because he like was drinking, had become like almost like reliant on it so much that he was like self-proclaiming like that he was being an alcoholic and he relied solely on me to make him self feel better and not really like help himself. So I felt like he like duped me and like let me down. And he was like shutting down for me and like not talking to me. And like this ex like was someone that really, really loved me, but also was like so terrible for me. And I just felt like I was like in this tailspin of being like, am I making

the right choice? Like this person's like trying to find any way to contact me to be with me. And this other person that I'm trying to be with that I think is like, actually the person is making poor choices and is like spinning out themselves. I couldn't save myself, him, anyone. I just was like made a terrible in the moment, poor choice.

And it, and I regretted it. How did you, how did Mike find out? I told him, um, good for you out of like being like honest and obviously in the middle of him having issues with substances it just made it worse and I just kind of was like I understand if

like you don't want to be with me um and I stuck around until like he kind of got out of what he was going through um because that got really ugly and then kind of was like I don't expect you to like want to be with me still at the end of this i just want to make sure that like you're okay um and then yeah you can make a choice for yourself and kind of like owned everything that i did and so he eventually got his shit together and then ended it with you he went back and forth so like he he got his shit together in the sense that like, he stopped drinking like less.

We like, you know, I took away like a lot of the things from him that were like temptations and like, he was trying to get himself on his feet, go to therapy, like all that kind of stuff. And, um, he had like full fledged forgiven me. He was like, I know that like, you're not this type of person. And like, you've always been my person. Like, I always like thought we'd get married, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, I know this isn't you. And like, I forgive you. But the problem was, is like, I hadn't forgiven myself. Like,

I didn't feel like someone that was deserving of the forgiveness. Sorry, I'm getting emotional. Um, or like his love at the time that like, I couldn't feel like someone that was like lovable, but also I couldn't like work through that, how that like was affecting him, like whenever he got mad. And then also his family, obviously some of them, he told what had happened, which I don't blame him. Um, and obviously they felt a certain way towards me. And I just felt like I was fighting everyone and I just needed to like, I couldn't white knuckle it anymore. Sure. How long ago was that?

I'd say like May. Okay. When did you find out he was dating someone else? Like three weeks ago. And he just a new, and then you found out it was a certain person yeah i found out it was her through like a mutual friend of ours and i was like god that gosh this has got to be a joke and that's just like dumb luck i mean how small is this town

you know that you're in it's not small at all that's the crazy thing and i was like i don't know if this girl loves me or hates me or even knows who I am. Like I try not to guess like her part at all, but, um, yeah, it is what it is. When was the last time you spoke with Mike? Um, two weeks ago. What was that about? Uh, truthfully we had bought a pre-bill together to move in. Um, truthfully we had bought a pre-bill together to move in um when we were dating and like good and happy and um we needed paperwork done for it and so we had to go and do the paperwork that was kind of wild because it was like I just like had gone to like a lot of therapy and was like listen like I've worked through like my part of things and like what I did and I, and I owned like how

I was treating him and like things that I felt like he needed to hear, um, that I couldn't give it to him before. And I just was like, apologizing, owning my part. And I said, like, I know that you're dating someone new. Um, I just, I want you to be happy. Um, but I like, I do miss you. I, I didn't admit that. And he just went down like a road of being like, I think that I'm still in love with you too. And like, I am seeing this person, but it's open. And like, I just don't know. I just want to be happy. And I just feel like you never really chose me. Okay. Do you think you're ready? You know, do you think you're ready you know do you think you know healed

meaning we're never finished products but do you think yeah you're in a healthy are you still in therapy still in therapy great um if I were him and I'm just like alright why why should i trust you and i don't even mean

the cheating part per se but because yeah it seems like i'm not much of like i'm not the attachment style guy you know but there seems to be and i don't know what your therapist says i would be curious but you seem to have some self-sabotage going on and some kind of of you know avoidant i don't know like when things are good you kind of detach or or or maybe you're attracted to some sort of trauma again like i hope that he's healing it's not like he's on a path, but he has his own demons, his drinking and substance abuse. And, you know, like this is, you seem to be attracted to this type of trauma. Like, why are you in a health, like if I were Mike and I'm just like, hey, I'm just like, I've done some work too. And I think we have some unhealthy patterns as much as I feel I miss you and you miss

me. But like, why should we trust each other to be in this relationship? Why would it be different this time around? Why would we have a healthy relationship? And why should I be able to trust, you know, that I'm gonna get this person that's standing in front of me right now,

six months into our relationship? Because in the past, once you guys started dating things kind of got toxic yeah i think that i've just like i think if you were mike and i was talking to you like i've journaled a lot about this and like obviously through therapy like worked through a lot of it um i just feel like i've always been like the person to do the right thing, like all the time. And I'm normally like other people's like go to, and most of the time I've been like screwed over, abandoned, all that kind of stuff. So I feel like I'm like used to that pattern, like always happening to me, even though I try so hard to like avoid it, that it happens anyways, that now I'm at the point of

my life where like I was self-sabotaging, but like through going to therapy, I realized that that was like a pattern of mine. And like, I just wasn't appreciating the simple things of like how hard he was choosing me. I wasn't communicating like properly. And I just like love him so much. I feel like there's nothing that I wouldn't try to like work through with him. And that's part of like our communication style that I feel like before I was like so quick to run. Cause I'm like, this isn't right. Like, I'm just going to choose me because this happens to me all the time. Not realizing that, like I was creating that reality for myself. And I just don't feel like that person anymore. Like, I just feel like I see those tendencies that I do and I don't feel like that person or want to be that person and I

like recognize them now that I'm like I feel like he's my person and I just want to show him like how much I've loved him this whole time and really like have been really shitty at showing it to him okay um back to you saying you got cheated on all the time never anyone it's not your fault you got cheated on like obviously yeah but my question to you is despite it not being your fault have you reflected back on the people who on the relationships where you got cheated on and thought to yourself is there anything i could have done differently not to maybe prevent them from cheating on you, but to maybe address whatever problems existed before that happened. For example, like I've been cheated on before,

right? And something I think in the past I've realized about myself is that like, you know, I always have this desire to be a great partner. You know, I want to give it my all, but you can give it a hundred percent and still do a bad job. You know, I want to give it my all, but you can give it 100% and still do a bad job. You know, effort isn't always the solution. And I think at times I was ignoring red flags or I was not asking the tough questions. You know, I wasn't listening to my body, so to speak. And, you know, I would be in those relationships where I felt like generally confident and secure and I had trust. be in those relationships where I felt like generally confident and secure and I had trust and I'd always be like, well, no, I just offered trust freely so much so that I never wanted to doubt myself and my ability to trust. I wouldn't address things early on. I almost would avoid

speaking up and saying, hey, that makes me feel uncomfortable. And instead of saying something, I would rather think of myself as, well, I could be the type of boyfriend who's that trustworthy that, you know, I can trust you with this, even though in my gut, it felt like, why am I being okay with this? And I'm just wondering, if you have a pattern of always being cheated on, what was, what was your pattern? Again, not your fault that you got cheated on, but if there's a pattern that you're involved in, there's a pattern that you are replicating. And I'm just wondering if you've been able to identify that. I think for sure. Like I've always been able to trust my gut.

Like when I think something's off, I definitely like asked and found out that way and then just like cut it off. And that was simple. But I think the part in the cheating aspect where I failed myself is that a lot of the time when I'm dating someone, I struggle between like, what's a good enough reason to like break up with someone. Like I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt all the time. Like I can understand like how they got there and why they're doing the things that they're doing.

And I think like through listening to a lot of your podcasts, when I feel like I get an answer, like maybe I just take it at face value, whereas not now I'm like, what do you mean by that? Like, can you elaborate on that? Like, I'll ask more of those questions. And I think that the mixture of like giving people the benefit of the doubt and also not asking people to like elaborate on something that maybe seemed a little bit off or just good enough was probably my downfall and my past like cheating scenarios. scenarios okay yeah it sounds like maybe you've tackled that i mean so what do you think you should i mean that sounds like there's potential there i mean i'm to be honest i'm a little surprised myself um because it sounds like maybe there's something there that that's worth fighting for i think i'm just struggling between now i've done all this work that i'm like i don't want to be the person that she was to me. Okay.

Well, you don't have to. You don't have to be. Does Mike know who she is? Yes, he does. He does. Okay. And what did he have to say about that? Well, it's hard because for him, he doesn't trust this ex of mine.

He thinks like he's like, obviously a terrible person conniving. And at the end of the day like that person is the only bad person in the situation and that like i made a bad choice and she also chose that person it's more like he's taking the anger out on you know our i don't i don't expect him to feel a certain way about her. Again, I don't know what she knew or didn't know, so to speak. That wasn't even why I asked the question. I asked the question is because if you do this, like if you fight for him, you guys both need to really trust what the other person is saying. You guys need to trust the other person's intentions. other person's intentions. If I'm Mike or if I'm you, I wouldn't want Mike to have an ounce or an inkling that any part of the motivation to do this is some sort of revenge on your part for her, to get back at her, so to speak. If you're going to do this, you both need to be able to trust each other's motivations and decisions. And the fact that he is seeing this girl who you know represents

some pain for you yeah it would be understandable if you had a heart if if if if you weren't 100% sure that wanting him back had something to do with getting back at her and i'm not saying it is but that's something that you two need to feel confident and the fact that it's not yeah i think that's why i came here for help because i'm like i truly at the end of the day want him to be happy even if it means it's not with me but i think that'll be a hard pill to swallow for me because like i I really want it to be us. Yeah. I just don't know like how to say it to him. And like, if I do say it to him or I just let him come to it on his own of like, you know, trying to see this girl figuring out his own head. And then if it comes back around

naturally, like then have the conversation or if I just go in there, like guns a blazing, like, this is how I feel. This is everything that I have to say about it. And then let him choose. Like, I don't know what to do. I'm more of a guns a blazing kind of guy. Okay. I mean, if this is how you feel and you truly feel this way and you've thought about what work that's going to take, you know, this relationship has builtin trust issues on both sides. The problem that you guys have is history, and you have pain on both sides. And what you guys can't do is come into this potentially new relationship

with a bunch of IOUs. Well, you did this to me, or I did this to you, and you do have to start all over. This relationship to me would sound like if you guys got into relationship, I would immediately get into couples therapy because this relationship obviously is about getting married. You know, this is not about you two figuring it out. You know, this is about like you guys both fucked up in the past. You've hurt each other, but you but you no longer want to waste time.

This is the person you are willing to fight every day and wake up and choose and do the work to make this relationship work. That was the first thing I said. I'm like, I would want to go to couples therapy with you and figure it all out. But I feel like I'm so scared of people screwing me over before that I don't say all of it. I just say like this tiny little piece and then it makes him think like, how much is she actually in it? Or because I just say like something that seems so throwaway to him. Yeah, you have to be all in. You have to be willing to be hurt and rejected. You have to be willing to have him not like what you say or disagree with what you say and vice versa. How old are you again?

31. How old is he? He's 28. 28. Okay. Is he ready to settle down? we've always had conversations about like what it would be like if we raise kids together and like how we would raise them and like what we would want the future to look like and like we've spoken about all that kind of stuff like family issues like all that kind of stuff what do you what did he mean by his relationship is open with her he tried to go in to kiss me and I stopped him because I knew he was seeing someone. And I said, um, I know that you're seeing someone and I know who she is. And he was like, well, yeah,

I'm seeing her, but she knows that like, we're not like boyfriend, girlfriend. Like I, she could go on a date with someone else. I could go on a date with someone else. And I just kind of like, was like, I don't feel like this is a good, a good choice. Like right here now. I'm like, I, what did he say? He, I've done that to him before in the past. Like when, so he was like upset at me for like stopping him. Um, and then we just kind of kept talking about other stuff. I don't like that.

He was upset with you. What do you mean that you've done that before? I mean, all you did was stop a guy who's in a relationship or dating someone from making a decision he shouldn't have made. He should have made that decision. You helped him out. out of that. And we were, we went for a coffee and like had a chat and it was like our first chat, like talking together and like seeing where each other was at. And he just kind of like out of the blue went straight in for a kiss. And like, I knew that like my emotions were all over the place that I just like stopped him. Cause I was like, like, we're just talking this through, like, that's not the time to just go in for a peck. You know what I mean? Sure. Well, this would be Well, this would be an example of

a topic that I'd want you two to address in couples therapy. And what I mean by that is, here's this scenario, right? Where he was feeling a certain way. He made a choice. You were feeling a different way about that. You articulated that feeling. He didn't say, I see what you're saying. appreciate it he felt he felt a certain way about it he felt maybe let on by you or frustrated he was not on the same page with you and that would be an example of a situation where you guys need to get on the same page you know in terms of why what your intentions are why you know and so in of why, what your intentions are, why, you know, and so in the future, when you guys have conflict about these situations and granted, obviously, if you're in a relationship

or you're dating, there won't be moments where you like say, don't kiss me, but there will be other scenarios where you're not on the same page, where you're misreading the other person's intentions or how they're communicating. And those are the little things that add up over time that create disconnect and frustration and things like that, which you two have experienced, you know? Because that's what led to this back and forth that him being frustrated about your ex

and you being frustrated at him. And then all of a sudden you're like, fuck that, I'm just going to go do the thing he's accusing me of anyways. And so in a couples therapy, you would be like, hey, this was a scenario that happened between us that granted we weren't dating but we were we we were definitely disconnected with

how the other person was receiving what we were saying you know and you want to find more moments like that where you're both able to say all right i get where you're coming from whether i agreed with it or not, but I get your intention. And that hopefully that intention, you will find more moments where both of you realize that the other person wasn't, wasn't against you. You know, they were like, you were there for him. That was you being his teammate. You, that was you protecting his character. You, that was you looking out for him, but he didn't see it that way and he needs to be able to see it that way when it's true and vice versa so yeah listen i he clearly has feelings

for you you know i i would say hey maybe think about it some more you seem to have done that but if you're gonna do it you just really need to go for it you know and just say like you have to acknowledge hey we've done this before i know you probably have a lot of reasons to have this you know have reservations about this i don't have reservations about how i feel about you but i think we both recognize that we have tried and failed in the past so So what is going to be different for us? Well, again, let's maybe try couples therapy, but I'm committed to making this work. It's not just about choosing you today. I'm committed to wake up every day and fight for us and fight for you and fight for this relationship. And that's going to take a lot of work on our part. But I want to try that because I do miss you. I love you. I regret the things I've done.

I regret not being a partner for you. I regret making you feel a certain way. And I'm sure you, I don't know, hopefully he has regrets too, but that's what I'm willing to do. And this is what I want from you. And hopefully he's willing to do the same thing, you know, and see what he says. Sounds great. All right. Well, good luck. Keep us posted. Dying to find out what happens. But yeah, I think reach out. Let them know you want to talk. Set some expectations of what the conversation is going to be like.

Hold them accountable for making the right choice. You know, hey, just if you're comfortable with it, I just want you to make the right choice. I can be patient for this conversation, but I don't want to have a conversation that you can't be honest with whoever you're dating about good luck thank you all right okay keep us updated let us know i'm excited to hear what happens with this i will all right thanks guys all right thank you take care we love a good skylight frame what an amazing gift for anyone in your life. I told you this story before. I'll say it again.

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I'm good. How are you? Good. What's your name? Hi, I'm Jane and I'm 26 years old. How can we help? I am calling because I would like to know if I am delusional for wanting to date a guy that currently has a boyfriend. Okay. Interesting. Well, tell us more. I mean, it's more that he has a partner in general, but I guess added layer that he's dating a man. I know that you've held people with this

type of question before. I don't know if I'm just forgetting your advice or choosing to not listen to it. But last summer I met a guy, I will call him Tim at my best friend's wedding in France. And he's the cousin of the groom. I should preface that I was in a relationship during that time. And that relationship with my now ex was, it was very rocky, rocky prior to the wedding.

And we talked about breaking up, but we weren't actually officially broken up yet. So I was not operating as if I had had a free pass to do whatever I wanted. And it was admittedly very hard because I constantly thought Tim was physically attractive. And we did have a chance to talk quite a bit leading up to the wedding day. So I developed a bit of a crush on him. And at the wedding reception, when Tim and I were drunk, somewhere within the hour plus long conversation we were talking he was basically pitching to me why we should go on a date and how he'd be a great boyfriend one day um that I should give him a chance but I didn't think of anything of it because one we were drunk two this was uh maybe a ploy to hook up which I couldn't do and three we also

both live in different continents at the time. So he lived in the Netherlands to be specific. And I just didn't see why we date long distance. So nothing happened. The next day after the wedding, we had lunch and breakfast together before heading out. Everything was fine. We hugged, exchanged contact information, never spoke again. And I thought about reaching out, but I kind of talked myself out of it and I lost confidence and I didn't hear from him either and actually um so a few weeks after the wedding when my my boyfriend and I broke up and I started talking to somebody else from the wedding who reached out to me and um this person also lives in the Netherlands I don't know what was happening with that but um uh we actually did try dating it

basically didn't work out um because the guy didn't like me as much as I liked him. And flash forward to now, I actually ended up moving to the Netherlands because my best friend also lives here. And I found out recently that Tim, so the initial guy from the wedding that I liked, did like me. And he was upset to hear that I was actually talking to somebody else from the wedding. And I know this sounds like a bit of a hindsight 2020 statement, but I was actually bummed to hear that because I did like him too. And I wanted to date him, but a part of it is kind of my fault because I didn't actually reach out when I knew that he did like me because that's when I found out that he was dating someone else and he came out as bi. So now he has a boyfriend. So from a couple of weeks ago, I actually saw him and both the guy that I tried to date both at the

same event. This was organized by our friends that got married. So it was not a coincidence. And when I was actually talking to Tim, like all the feelings came back. And I kind of I don't know, this is where the delusional part of me came in rose like, I want to date you. And I selfishly was not thinking of the fact that he had a boyfriend, I was just focused on like, how can I get this guy to date me? And admittedly, I don't know if that's a really selfish thing to say. Also, as like a straight woman, I don't know if that's a really selfish thing to say also as like a straight woman. I don't know, like if a part of me also feels like I even have that power to be able to do that or have control over that.

Um, and his boyfriend was actually at this event. I was never introduced to him, but I heard later that he made a comment to somebody about how when Tim and I were talking, it seemed as though like, we're like old loves talking again, or reconnecting. And anyway, not to read into that too much, because I don't know what that actually means coming from this guy. But I kind of just, yeah, it put me in a place where now I'm like, I want to be able to say something, I feel like I've also gained a lot more confidence since moving and just kind of picking my life back up again. So yeah, I don't know if I'm being really selfish about this or if it's actually valid to say something and express that I have feelings for him

and I did from before as well. So what you have is chemistry with him, you know, and that chemistry is creating feelings because those feelings you expressed kind of happened when you saw him and then you saw his smile and you felt his energy and it kind of reminded you of the chemistry that you guys seem to naturally have. You know, some people naturally have chemistry. Chemistry is great and important, but it's not as reliable, as I always say, as most people give it credit for.

Just the way you tell the story, it's like, I saw him and it was a moment. And that moment created a feeling for you. Even you said, in that moment, I knew I immediately wanted to date him. Well, in that moment, you knew that you wanted him and you were now available and your situation was different and you were in a position to act on those feelings, even though he wasn't. So internally, you were able to say, I want this person now. I am now free to tell myself, I want this. And if he were single, maybe you guys could have jumped on that and kind of dove into this chemistry that you feel and see if there's some compatibility there. But he's not available. And this is a man who's kind of going through a lot right now. He recently came out as bisexual.

He's dating a man for the first time. He's learning a lot about himself right now. is bisexual. He's dating a man for the first time. He's learning a lot about himself right now. And all you have to go on is a moment of, is the chemistry that you have, which is nice, but again, far less reliable than people act like it is. There's no foundation that you have with them. You don't really know if you guys are all that compatible. Maybe you are. You just don't know yet. And yes, if you were both single, you both could see and try it out. But what you are feeling right now is based off of this organic and natural chemistry that you have, which is a nice little foundation to start something. But I don't think it's a justifiable reason enough to complicate his life and try to break up a relationship. I think it would be selfish of you to reach out to him right now and drop this information on him,

mostly based off of a moment that you felt. And that moment you felt is creating a lot of scenarios in your head and you're kind of fantasizing about what it would be like to date him. And most fantasies are enjoyable and fun and nice. And in this meantime, you've convinced yourself of how great you two could be together. Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't, I don't know. You know, it might be like most relationships at first, which you'd have a honeymoon phase, and then a year from now, you'd figure out

if you're actually compatible, if you could make it work. But you're so far away from that, and you have so little information about why um you should do this only it's only really based off of a moment you know a couple moments um and kind of this bad timing so my gut tells me no i don't i think it would be selfish of you to say something to him right now. Just because unless I'm missing something, this is mostly based off of a natural chemistry that you have in a moment of feeling something. But there's not much there below that. Yeah, no, you're right. And I didn't also think of it from the point of view of that this is his first relationship with a guy and that that could be a big, that's a big moment

for sure. And I definitely did not think of that. So I appreciate you bringing that up. I was saying, just to be clear, if this was a woman he were dating, I'd have the same opinion. The fact that that's just one added, like also something to consider, but it's not the, it's not what's driving my opinion. What's driving Maya's opinion is the fact that he's in a relationship and you are responding to a moment. Yeah. And I guess a part of me just kind of wanted to, because I feel like I missed an opportunity to say something before that now I know. Yeah. It's really bad because the timing doesn't work out that he's actually dating somebody. But I felt like now that I'm a bit

more confident to actually say something, I was hoping I could just throw it out there. And if in the event he's ever single. Think of it this way. If it's meant to be, so to speak, you'll have plenty of opportunities to demonstrate this newfound confidence in life, in general, in dating, in your professional career. So don't use the excuse that, well, now that I'm more confident, I finally want to say something. For whatever reason, you didn't say what you didn't say back then. And sure can be down yourself that it was a missed opportunity but you maybe maybe that's just maybe it wasn't the right time for you you know you have no idea if you would have said something when you did that it would turn into whatever you fantasized about

you know you don't you don't know that you were to by your own words you were kind of a different person then type of thing again you, you could have shot your shot. And then all of a sudden he can be like, well, to be honest, I think I'm bisexual. And I feel like I need to explore that. You could have shot your shot. And then he could have already ended whatever you two had because he needs to explore his sexuality. And the opportunity that you think you lost could have already had been over.

You don't really know how it would have played out. So instead of redoing a whole type of revision of history and getting regret, oh, I lost my opportunity, and using it to justify doing something selfish, just accept that, hey, I wasn't in the right place then. That's why I didn't say something.

He's going through stuff now. All you know about this guy is that you have some natural chemistry with him. And that's great. But that doesn't mean he's your person. It doesn't mean you're meant to be. It doesn't even mean you're compatible. It just means that you have some natural chemistry. And in the future, if you both are single and in healthy places as individuals,

maybe that you two can try it out. It wouldn't shock me if this new boyfriend of his is not his person, you know, because he, again, is trying things out. So let it play out and go from there. But in the meantime, I would stop obsessing over him. I would stop beating yourself up about, you know, I should have said this then, you know, I screwed up and stuff like that. I would stop doing that to yourself because you're only going to complicate yourself. You're only going to make things more complicated for yourself. It's only going to frustrate you. It's a version of lying to yourself about what you should have done. It's you trying to rewrite the past to justify what you want to do in the present. And so since you want to do the right thing, and if the right thing, if you agree with me, is to just let it go, not say anything, not kind of drop this on him and give him another thing to consider or another thing to maybe think that he made a mistake on, just let him play this

relationship out. And then at the time you know you have mutual friends you're going to be in each other's lives um and start dating other people you know and stop telling yourself oh he's perfect and it should have been me and stuff like that just say hey this is a person i have chemistry with but i'm going to have chemistry with a lot more people so i'm not going to obsess over this one. Right. I have a question because this is a situation that I find like, as you're even talking,

it's just kind of reminded me like this has happened multiple times to me. This is not like the first thing, the sense of like just a missed opportunity. And I think that's why I'm like this time I am really attributing it to it's my fault because I keep kind of ending up in this position where I don't do anything and then I find out later that I could have had a chance like I mean like I don't know if that's a confidence thing of myself or what it is but like when like are there times where are there's I don't know if there's a written rule and like signs that people should look out for when it is but like when like are there times where are there's i don't know if there's a written rule and like signs that people should look out for when it is kind of like a go ahead to like

shoot your shot or is it more just you go for it you do it you get rejected if you get rejected you move on kind of thing like because i find it always just i don't know i kind of go in like thinking like oh i like someone more than they like me. And then I never try. And then I always end up in this position where I'm like regretting. It's more the latter. It's just a willingness to be rejected. Because if you're going to sit there and wait for the perfect time to ensure that you get the answer you want, and you have to make sure that they like you as much as you like them, but no one's really communicated how much the other person likes each other, you're doing a bunch of guessing. You're going to have a bunch of missed opportunities if you're trying to prevent ever getting an answer you don't want or prevent rejection.

The best thing to do is to be this confident person that you're speaking about and go out there and own your feelings and put yourself out there and take a few risks here or there. And if you don't get the answer you want, just accept it and not let it trigger your ego and get, and become obsessed and just become this whole thing about like, oh, now I can convince them I'm worth it worthy. And I'm going to show them that I'm great. And, you know, and things like that, you know, if you, if you feel something, shoot your shot. Hey, I've, I love hanging out with you you i'd love to see you again you know whatever it is yeah put it out there and but yeah waiting for the perfect time to get the perfect answer

doesn't exist okay i have another question sorry about the same situation um we briefly mentioned when we met up that like we would at least like get together go go golfing or anything like that should i even like try to establish a friendship or just not even like bother it's a little trickier because i think it's up to you because if we're saying don't say something to him to complicate his life it'd be weird for you to just avoid him um but at the same time i don't think you should be hanging out with someone that you have feelings for and pretend to be someone's friend that we're deep down you don't want to be their friend a little more complicated I think you're just going to have to play it out and I think you're gonna have to be really honest with yourself about what that right thing is in the moment you know and

listen if it maybe that answer might change there might be a time because you're in each other's lives and you're going to hang out and go golfing and be friends where you, it might feel like appropriate to say, can I just be honest with you? And I'm not trying to add more drama to your life. And, but I like, I think you're great. And I know you're in a relationship, but like, I think that's why I just don't, I want to be respectful of this relationship. I think that's why I just don't, I want to be respectful of this relationship. And, and maybe just being bestie friends isn't like the best move just because like, I like you and I'm not trying to make a move here because it's, you know what I'm saying? Like that answer might change depending on how much he tries to be in your life. But I wouldn't actively try to be in his life. And you're just going to have to assess the situation as it goes. And just be honest with yourself about why you're doing what you're doing. You know?

Okay. Is there ever a time in a situation like this where someone is dating somebody that it ever makes sense to reach out to somebody and like express that you like them when they're dating somebody else? Or is it always? I mean, we literally just got off a call with someone who had a back and forth relationship and and we gave her different advice because you know um they had this history there was a lot more again if you called me up and talked

about this history and maybe he's about to you know really invest in someone else you know like there's a time yeah to shoot your shot and they can always someone else, you know, like there's a time, yeah, to shoot your shot and they can always say no to you. And yeah, like you might be trying to break up a relationship, but that's just a choice you're going to have to make. My advice to you, again, is mostly based off the fact that you don't have history with this person. You don't have much rapport. You really don't know if you're compatible enough. It's a crush. And I don't think, you know, indulging in a crush justifies going to someone else and trying to fuck with their current relationship you know there's a lot less stakes here um and you're kind of the early stages of dating and and there's going to be a lot

more people you have crushes on and there'll be a lot of other people you can, you know, show your confidence to. And so, yeah, there will, there might be a time in the future, but, you know, not for someone that you kind of know, not too much about, don't have much rapport, don't really have any history. It's not because you guys have fucked up and, and, and not appreciate each other. And now you've done the work and things like that. It's, you know, a little different. Yeah. Well, thank you. I know that was probably very simple, but to me, I've been ruminating for a long time.

So it's nice to have a third party. Yeah, no, we appreciate the call. It's always, every situation is is nuanced and you know i've ruminated over far less complex situations so happy to help and hope it was helpful and um yeah i guess it was helpful thank you it was honest truth and i can always rely on that from this group. Well, we appreciate it. Well, keep us posted on your love life as it moves along. And if things change, let us know.

I will definitely know if anything changes. But for now, I will take your advice and I will just kind of focus on moving on. All right. Sounds great. Thank you very much, Nick. All right. And congratulations on your baby. Thank you so much.

Have a great day. Have a great day. Have a great day. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to send in those questions at asknickatthevilefiles.com. We'll see you tomorrow. Bye.