The Viall Files - E681 Ask Nick with Lewis Howes - She Slept With My Roommate

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Ask Nick Edition! And this is a special one… Lewis Howes, the OG Podcaster, joins the household in answering your burning questions. Dating, relationships, exes… All of it. Before getting to our callers, we dive deep into Lewis’ journey from living in New York, moving to LA for a girl, healing through therapy, and conquering 10 years of podcasting. We then get to our callers.  Our first caller’s friend is a ‘straight’ man who drives hours to stay with him, buys sentimental gifts, and sends him heart-eye emojis. He’s not sure if this friend is merely affectionate, or if he’s hinting at a romantic chemistry. Should he risk asking for clarity, for the potential of losing this connection. Our second caller is a mom and daughter duo. The daughter calls in to help decide if her mom’s 4 year partner is losing interest, or if he has become a red flag. For example, he doesn’t trust her mom, and thinks she's being flirty with other men. Our final caller is struggling to move on from his ex, who cheated on him TWICE. After cheating on him with his roommate, moving in with him into a new apartment, she then cheats on him again, with a classmate. Our caller is unsure how to mentally move on and reclaim control over his personal living space. “When people want to be with you, they choose you fully. They create space in their life.”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: https://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line!  To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Zocdoc - Go https://www.zocdoc.com/VIALL and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. Then find and book a top-rated doctor today. IQBAR - Our special podcast listeners get twenty percent off all IQBAR products, plus FREE shipping. To get your twenty percent off, just text FILES to 64000. EveryPlate - Get started with EveryPlate for just $1.49 per meal PLUS $1 steaks for life by going to https://www.everyplate.com/podcast and entering code 49viall. Subscription must be active to qualify and redeem $1 steak. Vuori - For our listeners they are offering 20% off your first purchase, free shipping on any U.S. orders over $75, and free returns. Go to https://www.vuori.com/viall and discover the versatility of Vuori Clothing. Helix Sleep - Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners! Go to https://www.helixsleep.com/viall  and use code HELIXPARTNER20.  StoryWorth - Go to https://www.storyworth.com/viall today and save $10 on your first purchase!  Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @lewishowes @alison.vandam @liffordthebigreddog @dereklanerussell

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Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to a new and special episode of the Vile files ask nick edition i'm your host nick join well amanda she's calling from home the single and only household member we have uh with abundance of caution for the rest of the team she is staying home and safe and our very very special guest someone i'm very excited to have on the show uh i've been following his career for a long time lewis house am i saying your last name right? Howes, like how's your mom? Howes, yeah. So good to have you, Lewis. Thanks, man. I'm glad we finally made this happen. Absolutely. I know a lot of people

know of you, know who you are, but for the people who don't, can you give a little kind of intro? You know, you're a thought leader a lot. You you know you have a very successful podcast of your own uh the school of greatness but yeah could you just give a little background in terms of your show and just kind of almost like your almost like your mission statement because i feel like you have a clear kind of intentional show well my mission is to serve 100 million lives weekly to help them improve the quality of their life hell yeah that's my mission and um my show's been around it's my 10-year anniversary. I think you've been doing yours for what, seven, eight years or something?

We started in 2019, so not quite as long. Okay, four years. People think I'm like an OG podcaster. You, truly. 10 years, yeah. So my whole thing has been about being a student of life and by being a student of interviewing and consuming from wise individuals, people who are much wiser than me in money, mindset, relationships, and health and wellness. And so I've been doing that for 10 years.

And the more you become a student, you learn a lot. And so I just feel like I've learned a lot through my own mistakes and versities, challenges and relationship, intimacy, business, career, health and wellness, everything. But yeah, I started a healing journey about 10 years ago and it's been a beautiful journey ever since. What got you into that? Because, you know, when we talk obviously very much relationship with dating in this show. And for me, it was more just as people who listen to the show know is like my own struggles and my own actions that got me into various messes of relationships. And you, people will hear with some of our callers, you know, I often can relate to their experience

for different ways of, you know, making excuses for my own choices or, you know, look, you know, letting people take advantage of me or, you know, lying to myself and things like that. And as a result of me having to kind of get over some tough situations, I kind of got into this kind of soul searching and self-reflection. Was there a period for you that you had a struggle? Like how did you come to want to like have these conversations? I was living in New York city. I moved from Ohio from a small town in Ohio. So we're both Midwest guys. Right. I moved from Ohio to New York and I had an online marketing business and I was like, you know, that started to grow and I was getting success. I was doing online courses and I was doing webinars and selling my programs online. So I was kind of like

living this internet lifestyle, right? Laptop, I could go anywhere. I was making good money and living the dream in New York. And I met a girl and she had just moved to LA and, and she, after about five months of dating, she was like, Hey, it was kind of at a crossroads. She was like, I don't want to do long distance anymore. I've always done that. Like, I kind of want to be in the same city. And I was like, well, I can fly here two, three weeks a month. But I'm loving New York.

And eventually she was like, no, I need your things in the same city as me. I was like, okay, well, I don't have much, but she wanted me to live here, essentially is what it was after a couple months. And I remember being frustrated because I was like, man, I really like this girl, but I don't want to move. And I decided to abandon self to go for love, right? And to give this a shot. Because I also didn't want to regret. What if it doesn't work out? What if we break up? And I want to abandon self to go for love, right? And to give this a shot. Because I also didn't want to regret.

What if it doesn't work out? What if we break up? And I want to have this wonder. So I moved to LA. And here's the story. The day I land in LA, two suitcases, a laptop, and a guitar. That's all I have. I get out of the lease in New York, move here.

Don't have a place yet. Just got an Airbnb for a month. Sure. The day I land, she breaks up with me. And I remember being, now we get back together. How old are you at this point? 29, 28, 29, somewhere around there. And it was like, what?

I just moved here and you're breaking, there were some signs of sabotage already before then, you know, it was too good, it was too good, and she wanted to live a, you know, a nightlife type of life, and she was a couple years younger and so she wasn't ready right but she wanted it but she had her fears i was people pleasing i was crossing my boundaries to try to like make it work so we both had our challenges and uh we get back together for a couple you know a few months off and on but then it was just kind of like, this sucks. Why did I move here? Screw LA. New York was amazing. These girls suck here. This relationship,

you know? And so I was in this inflection point where I had to do some soul searching. That eventually ended and I was kind of like depressed for a couple of months, like figuring it out. I was like, who am I? What am I doing? Started getting frustrated with my business partner, started getting frustrated with the traffic and getting reactive. And these kind of breakdowns led to me realizing something's wrong, like something's off in my life. And I started to go through coaching, searching coaching, mentorship, started doing emotional intelligence workshops, therapy, all these different things, which led to me for the first time in 25 years talking

about being sexually abused as a kid and kind of the pain and the fear and the anxiety I had around the feeling of abuse, right? That wound and pain that I didn't tell anyone for 25 years. But also just, you know, I think the stresses of my parents never really loving each other, getting married when they were 19, having four kids early on, and staying together for the kids, but it being a very toxic living environment. You've got 10 siblings, is that right?

So I don't know the dynamics there, but I left home at 13. I begged my parents to send me away just because it didn't feel safe. But I was always trying to choose partners that would kind of fix the relationship of my parents, right? If I was able to assess it. So there was just a lot of healing that I needed to work through and a lot of self-reflection. And that was kind of the beginning of like, oh, I want to start this podcast to learn more about myself and learn from the best.

And that's kind of like the evolution. So it doesn't mean I've had a perfect 10 years. I've had a lot of ups and downs. But every year I learn something new. I make mistakes. I overcome it, you know. And it's the healing journey, man. So it's just been a beautiful, beautiful experience.

That's great. With regards to like dating in relationships, I wanted to talk to you in general about like the state of the dating today. Um, we talk a lot about it just because it doesn't seem to be getting better. It feels like it's getting worse. Right. Would you agree with that? I think it's getting, you know, it's interesting. I was just having this conversation with a couple of people recently, someone that moved out of Los Angeles to go to San Diego. And they're saying that it's better. The guys are better there from their experience. And then I have another person that moved from San Diego to LA and saying the guys there are horrible and it's better here. So it's

like, I think it's depends on your perspective and what you're choosing to see and who you're choosing to spend time with. But I have heard that it's really challenging and it's really tough. But I think when you allow yourself to go into environments to attract certain people that are unhealthy environments, you can't expect to get a healthy result. And so you have to look within yourself to say, where am I spending my time and energy attracting these types of individuals? And, you know, am I still in people pleasing? Am I abandoning myself? You know, we're going to talk about a lot of this today with people, but it's always comes back to the inner work. I had a lot

of anxiety still over the last 10 years, but it wasn't until the last three years where there was this pain in my chest that would come and go in relationships sometimes. And it wasn't until a couple of years ago where that pain finally went away after intensive therapy. Like I'm talking about six hours on Saturdays, like diving in, doing anything possible to get rid of this pain. And it wasn't until I was able to heal that pain internally where I was able to see externally what I was attracting and I was able to see externally what I was attracting.

And I was able to make different decisions. And I quickly met my fiance, became my girlfriend, now fiance, pretty quickly after that pain, literally it felt like a ball of pain in my chest disintegrated throughout my body. And a few months later, probably six months later or so, I met her and I could tell the difference. And it was a complete shift in how I was, you know, interacting with someone from before when I had that pain and that wound, I would interact with people differently. It was more needy energy, more insecure, more, you know, choosing people that were more broken than me, than what I thought.

So I could try to like fix them or be the rescuer or whatever it might be, as opposed to just choosing someone on a healthy healing journey as well. And it's been a complete transformation and like the amount of abundance of love and peace that I have is incredible. And it doesn't mean it's always perfect. There's challenges, but it's like night and day. And so that's been the journey. So the big takeaway, what I'm hearing, it's just like it really came down to, which I feel like a lot of people do

when it comes to dating, it's, you know, you mentioned that story. Oh, guys suck here. Girls suck here. And yes, there's a lot of bad options out there and a lot of frustrating people. But, you know, we can only control what we can control you know and and yet I feel like it's it's I think we live in

a time where we want to hold people accountable you know but it seems to be at the expense of holding ourselves accountable at time and yeah it feels like yeah my values weren't in alignment with what I said I wanted. Right. Always. And so, and that takes diving deep and doing the emotional work and reflecting on where I've been and where I want to be. And then matching my actions with my values and my vision. And living in accordance with that consistently. with that consistently. You know, it's making that commitment to self and taking action that builds a strong bond of confidence,

competence, and respect and love for self. How are you able to hold yourself accountable? Like once you kind of identified what was triggering that pain, you know, we have a caller that refers to, you know, a partner that was going to therapy. Yes. And then stop therapy.

Well, you know, it's easy. It's not always easy to start, but a lot of people start and stop these things. But as I'm sure you can attest to, it's like an ongoing thing to constantly work on yourself. How do you keep holding yourself accountable? I got therapy tonight. I go to therapy. And when things are great, that's when I think you should be going to therapy Not when things are wrong yes go when things are wrong

But I think it's interesting because when I started the relationship I was doing my own therapy and when I started You know hanging out with Martha. I guess dating I said to her before we got committed so we were just kind of dating for like a number of months, right? But we started to see each other more and more. I realized like, oh, this person has a healthy relationship with self. And I knew something was different, but I was kind of like,

I don't want to be in a relationship right now, but I was like, man, this is something's different here. It's healthy. And I said to her, listen, this isn't like a deal breaker, but I would love to be committed to you to explore more. But I've always had a vision of starting a relationship in therapy. Would you be open to it? And she was like, absolutely.

And so for me, we started the relationship in therapy. Now, this is like when everything's great. There was like no friction, no problems. We were like having a great time. And we started in therapy. And it was the best thing that i've ever done for myself yeah i always say therapy is much better served as like a bicycle helmet or like a seat belt rather than reconstructive surgery yeah we go to the gym when we're when

we're healthy to prevent injury as well to prevent getting sick yeah not when you're sick then you go to the gym yeah it's like you should be constantly in the practice. And it doesn't mean you got to do every week or every month, but it's like, what are you doing? And we created agreements and alignment quickly because I wanted to know. I don't know about you, but I've been in too many two year relationships that ended poorly. And it's because we didn't have the clear, conscious communication beginning about values, vision, money, sex, family, kids, all those things that people wait because they just want to have fun yeah and I was like I want to have all these conversations up front and see if we're in alignment if not I don't wanna waste your time I don't want me to waste my

time you know and that was a huge blessing and it doesn't mean everything is gonna be perfect forever but it is created a harmonious first few years and It's allowed us to handle breakdowns With you know a sense of calm and a sense of like it's not gonna explode like maybe there's some friction But we're not explosive and reactive and running away. It's like all right. We know we're in this together Let's talk about this and we have these tools that we've agreed to. Yeah.

So for all the people listening, many of which are the majority of which are women. And let's say they're listening and they're saying, Lewis, Nick, you sound like two emotionally mature guys. You've done the work. But my boyfriend or all these guys I've talked to, they won't do this. They won't do that. And that's great for you guys. But I can't find that. what would you say to those people?

Are you being it are you fully being the thing that you're looking to find? What do you mean by that? Are you being vulnerable? Are you being courageous in your communication? Are you being your word to yourself and to your partner or the people you're dating? Are you showing up the way you want them to show up? Are you creating those healthy boundaries with self? It's that journey of self-love, that journey of acceptance, that journey of transformation, growth, and healing. You know, I'm always going to be healing.

It's not like I've reached the destination of healing and I'm a whole perfect person nonstop. There's got to be triggers and things that come up that I get to process and integrate those learnings continuously. And you hopefully get better over time. So it's like, yeah, okay, if you're not attracting these guys, you got to ask yourself, am I being the ideal partner to myself first? And the people we're going to talk to today, we're going to hear from all of them, they're

not being the ideal person to themselves. They're not being the ideal partner to self, being a stand for their values because they're allowing things to happen that are against their values. So really getting clarity, like what are my values? You asked me like, what's your mission statement? I know in a sentence what it is. That clarity of knowing doesn't mean I'm going to hit that vision. You know, my mission is is to serve 100 million lives weekly to help them improve the quality of their life. It doesn't mean that is actually going to be actualized, but it allows me to say yes and no to things that can support that vision. It allows me to make

decisions for myself to say, who do I need to become in order to reach that mission? Should I be drinking alcohol every night and eating sugar all day? Is that gonna help me impact and serve people if I'm sleeping with 20 people a day? Is that gonna help me be a cautious human being and serve people? So it makes me make better decisions in life To live up to a standard that matches the vision I'm trying to to reach and I think a lot of people will will hear from people today who? aren't living up to their own standards and allowing other people to do things that are out of integrity with what

they say they want. And if we're not doing the things we say we want, then why should we get the things that we want without living them ourselves first? Yeah. So you want a great guy who's conscious and healthy and does the work and, uh, you shouldn't be going to the bars every night because you're probably not going to find that conscious guy always at the bars. Right. It's funny. I, you know, I go to the gym here close by and, um, one of the trainers of the fitness classes, uh, she used to train at

the same CrossFit gym that i did 10 years ago and i moved here when i was going through the breakup with the girl and dealing with my life i was doing crossfit and she would work out there and i saw her there she goes hey do you remember me i'm you know i used to be the trainer here blah blah blah i'm teaching over here now and i go that's cool and she was asking me a couple personal questions she follows me as well online and she was asking me a couple personal things. And her class was all women and one guy. And I was like, there's only one guy in here. And she goes, yeah, he came here and he met his wife and he keeps coming here with his

wife now. They've been coming for years. Right. And I think a lot of people are going to the wrong places looking for the right person. And you got to start going to the right places to find the right person. And he went to, I want to find a person that, a woman that takes care of herself. I want to find a person that's committed consistently to the gym. Someone who lives in that lifestyle.

He showed up to the environment and met that person. Now it's his wife and they keep showing up together in that lifestyle. So it's just a matter of choices, you know, and I think we make, I've made a lot of poor choices that were based on sexual desire as opposed to spiritual connection and that was based on wounds you know i had these wounds that i wanted to feel something as opposed to create based on a vision and based on a different type of connection and that can be fun it can be exciting we'll hear a story about someone who's like been in the two-year you know exciting fantasy life but that doesn't mean you're living the vision yeah and we've been through lots of ups and downs in relationships and had lots of fun

but a lot of pain and i just don't think that serves our highest self at the best level and it takes us shifting the way we've been in order to create something new yeah that's really well said something i want to touch base with you on it's just kind of more of a general thought yeah you know as a man yourself um we had a caller a couple episodes ago who was married and and um she was thinking about leaving the marriage and partly had to come down and it seemed like her husband was aware of the struggles that they were having and the more she talked about him you know it was it sounded like the more and she even said yeah I think he hates women

wow you know he had this he was 29 year old man and then we we put out some clips of the episode and you know I'll get these comments from every once in a while my page will reach And then we put out some clips of the episode. And I'll get these comments from every once in a while, my page will reach certain men or men in general because I have a strong woman audience. only gather is a lot of men who feel very disenfranchised, um, frustrated with, um, how they're talked about men in general. And I don't know if you noticed that at all. And, you know, it's just like, I think there definitely needed to be a correction and continues to be a correction from, you know, the expectations of men and how they handle themselves out in public and how they treat women, me too, things like as often is the case it seems like maybe has there been an over correction to the point where men you know it's just like it's it's like again it's like even in

relationships you know that's like it's always okay for like a girlfriend to be like you're a fucking asshole but again i can't say that no and I don't want to call my person a fucking asshole Or a bitch or anything like that. Yeah that that language. Yeah, if you allow that you're allowing someone to walk all over you I mean, there's a I'm forgetting the name of this book, but there was a book of a woman Who created an experiment experiment? Maybe our producer here can look us up and just you, Google at some point to see if this comes up. But there was a woman that did an experiment for a year or a year and a half. She essentially became a man, dressed like a man, got a high sales,

got a, you know, high tense sales job. Like presented herself as a man. As a man, like, you know, physically looked like a man, right? But she was a woman and she knew she was a woman, but she was like, I want to do an experiment, you know? And she had the physical characteristics that could be, you know, I guess looking like a man as well. So she put on a suit.

She kind of covered her breast. She looked, she sounded like, she talked like, and she presented herself as a man. I think this was like 10 years ago. The book is Self-Made Man by Nora Vincent. She did a whole experience, and she went on dates with women, right? Now, she was a woman that used to go on dates with men,

and now she said, I'm going to go on dates with women, right? She was bisexual, I think. And afterwards, she essentially, her whole book was essentially about how it was, you know, she could sit there and book was essentially about how it was, you know, she could sit there and take a date with a woman and one look of disgust or disinterest could just crumble her self-confidence as a man. And she was like, wow, like the women that I was going on dates with really made me feel small, just with a look, with just a snarl, with a disinterest, with a, me feel small just with a look with just a snarl with a

disinterest with a you know just looking away and not showing that they cared or have a mutual respect when here you know she was as a man trying to wine and dine trying to get flowers trying to do the reservation paying for things doing all the things that society tells men to do and then just one quick thing of like you're fucking asshole you're a fucking asshole. You're this or whatever, or just on the phone or whatever it is. Right. Like she says she felt so small and she was like, wow, the pressures of men are so high

in relationships. There's no wonder why men go through bouts of, you know, a lot more men commit suicide of depression, anxiety, all these different things. I'm not saying it's okay for men to treat women poorly because of that. And there are tons of pressures and challenges that women face, obviously, in relationships and dating. But men face a lot of stress, feeling rejected, feeling not enough, feeling inadequate. It's never good enough. No matter how much I pay for things or how hard I try, it's still not enough.

It almost, even when you talk about it, it's like we always have to be like, yes, no matter how much I pay for things or how hard I try, it's still not enough. It almost, even when you talk about it, it's like we always have to be like, yes, no. Women have problems too, there's challenges. As if we always have to justify why we're saying, hey, let's also pay attention to the plight of single men out there and the struggles that they might have. Constantly rejected, you know. Yeah.

And I get the challenges of women of never feeling good enough or never feeling like they're pretty enough in the comparison game and all the different stresses that come with that, needing to look perfect and, you know, all that stuff. But there's a lot of pressure, I think, for both. But men feel ultimately lonelier in general than women in general because men don't have these conversations with their friends as much as women have it as much in general than women in general, because men don't have these conversations with their friends as much as women have as much in general.

And I think the statistic currently is 50% of men don't feel like they have one male friend they can be fully open and honest and vulnerable with. Yeah, just really say- One male friend. You can go to the bar, you could watch a game with them, But can you turn to them and just say, I'm really struggling emotionally. I feel really stressed out about my relationship. Not saying, oh, my girl's a nag or something. But like, man, I'm like, I really don't feel enough.

And I'm like, I'm suffering and struggling and I don't know what to do. I wrote a book called The Mask of Masculinity years ago that was about the mask that men wear to try to fit in and project something to feel enough, right? But it's essentially not their authentic selves. We all have these different masks. And when I was doing kind of a tour talking about this years ago, the rooms would be about half men and women, right? And I would ask the, this is just a scenario, right? And I was going all around the country.

Maybe this is different right now, but this is all around the country at the time. I would ask the women in the room, I'd say, raise your hand if once a week you get together with your girlfriends or your mom or your sister or girlfriend, and you talk about the challenges in your life. You talk about relationship issues. You talk about friendship issues. You talk about your body image issues. You talk about whatever's going on and you open up. Almost all the women in every room would raise their hands. So yeah, like once a week. And I

say, keep your hand up as a joke. If you do this every day, like if you talk to a girlfriend at lunch break every day, you call your mom or something and kind of, they all kind of laugh and giggle and keep their hand up. Right. It's almost a daily thing in general, not all women, but in general. And I said, okay, from the men in the room, raise your hand. If once a month you get together with one male friend and you talk about your insecurities, you talk about your relationship challenges in a vulnerable way. You talk about your sadness, maybe two or three out of hundreds of men would raise their hand. And I would always point to them them and say are you guys part of like a mandatory church group that does this and like 50 men get together and you know it's like a safe environment where

you can kind of you know open up and they all kind of like yeah but kind of giggling and laughing and I go ladies imagine and everyone watching listening right now just put this scenario in your minds imagine if you were not allowed to you could only open up once a month about how you felt to any girlfriend. You could only do it once a month. How would that make you feel? And when I asked people that, they were like, it probably drive me crazy. If I had to hold all these emotions in, these feelings in, and I could only wait once a month to have this conversation, it would be really challenging. And I go, Matt, what if you did it once a year?

And they're like, no, that's not possible. No, it's not possible. I go, what if you waited a lifetime and you never shared? They would always kind of joke and say, I'd probably kill myself. And I say, well, that's what men are doing. They're numbing themselves. They're becoming alcoholic, drug addict, porn addict, sex addict, whatever they can do. Or they're killing themselves eventually

Because that's why suicide rates are higher in men. That's why depression and loneliness are higher in men and I'm not saying it's men's fault You know, it's everyone's responsibility to have courage to have these conversations with men But when you get shot down by men or made fun of when you open up with a guy friend, it doesn't feel good. When you get shot down by a woman, when you start to be vulnerable or cry once and they say, hey, I actually need you to be strong right now, it doesn't feel good. We put on a mask.

So I'm not saying this is justified or right. I'm just saying it is a challenge. Yeah. I think that's more than anything. I think it's just we need to start at least acknowledging it and have it be a safe space to say, yeah, we've done a lot of work in society and we've, we've, we've appropriately held certain men accountable. Yes. But we also need to still acknowledge that men have their struggles too. And they're, they're very severe. Now, what would you say, you know- And especially in modern society with the internet culture, you can't just expect every

man to be some high value man who's making six figures that's six feet tall with a six pack and, you know, has a secure job, has their own house, has a nice car. You can't expect every man to live up to that standard at 23, 25, 26. It takes time to build yourself into having a great career that's making good money, that's able to pay for things. You can't expect a man to pay you for $300 at sushi down the street on your first date right away and be like, oh, if he's not willing to pay for $300 the first date, then he doesn't deserve my time. You got to think about how are you showing up to the relationship? Also, how are you adding value? Are you being present and kind and courteous? I'm not saying you got to sleep with the guy, but are you

showing up with a good energy as opposed to an expectation. What are you contributing as well? And you don't want a relationship that is single-sided. That's not a healthy relationship. So you just got to be thinking about these things in the context of who you're dating and who you're going out with and their life and what can they afford and how can they show up based on their whole context of their history.

You can't expect people to be perfect at 24. Yeah. What's one bit of advice you'd have for women to better connect with any man in their life to help a man in their life feel safer or more vulnerable and just to be a good partner, whether it's a potential dating option or current partner, how could the women who are listening and saying, Hey, well, I want to, our current partner, how could the women who are listening and saying, Hey, well, I want to, I want to help. I want to at least be an empathetic partner. What would be advice that you'd have? It depends on if it's like a brother or a father or, you know, a, you know, a friend or something like that. But I think a lot of men in general lack hearing a few things. And that is,

I appreciate you. You're valued. valued and I love you I think men lack hearing that and it's a lot of what men want yeah they just want to hear I appreciate you thank you for working so hard like I get just kind of emotional thinking about it because I don't remember hearing that like in my 20s in my early 30s like the women in my life just saying, thank you for working so hard, like for working on yourself, for showing up for us, for, you know, not that I was perfect or whatever, but just like men want to hear that they are valued for working hard and that they are accepted for who they are.

I'm not saying it's justified if they're making mistakes left and right, but. But when they do do something that you're proud of, or you know that they worked out, tell them. Tell them. Yeah. And it will, men will move mountains for you if they hear that. It doesn't have to be every day, like constantly praising them or something, but it's just, man, you say that every once in a while, you're going to get so much more out of the men in your life. And also when I, when I opened up about being sexually abused, I was 30 years old when I opened up about it. Now I was five when this happened, right? So I was five. Um, and it was a man that I didn't know as the babysitter's

son who was probably like 16 or 17. You know, when I was eight, my brother went to prison for four and a half years for selling drugs to an undercover cop. So he was 18, went to prison, sentenced six to 25 years. So every weekend we drove two and a half hours when I was eight till I was 12 to a visiting room in a prison. And I was around, you know, 50 convicts and their families every weekend. My parents were struggling. They were going through challenges so

Every man has their own context. I'm not saying that that mine is worse or harder than other people we all have different challenges growing up and You have to understand that every human being has had a past and most people haven't healed their past or haven't addressed it We we chase things we we overcompensate we you know try to achieve to overcome the pains of the past we run away from it a lot when i was 30 i finally realized like i had made over a million dollars i had a successful business i was a professional athlete i was on the u.s olympic team for a sport called team handball representing USA. I had a world record holder in football for the most receiving yards in a single game. I was a two sport All-American.

I could stack up accomplishments, but the whole time I was running away from pain to try to make myself feel lovable and feel enough. But the more I accomplished and achieved, the more angry I got because it didn't make me feel lovable and enough. And most men don't feel that way. Even if they look like they got it all put together. Even if they look like they're dressed perfectly, they got style, they're six-pack, they're at the gym. They probably don't feel enough, especially in their 20s.

And so my biggest fear was people not loving me and not accepting me. And the thing was, if they really knew about my past, would they love and accept me? Maybe they'll love and accept me if I can contribute financially or with my success or accomplishments or what I bring as an image, a mask. But if they really knew me, would they love me? That was my fear. So when I started to go through this healing journey and kind of opening up for the first time in an emotional intelligence workshop, my biggest fear was I can't tell a soul.

Otherwise, my business will end. No one will buy anything from me ever again. If they knew this happened to me, my family will disown me. I'll never get a girl again in my life. This was these irrational fears that I felt, right? They weren't true. They were just like, but they felt true. And a therapist told me, I go, I really want to tell my family, but I just don't think they'll love me. And she said, ask them each a question before you tell them about your experience. Don't just throw it on them. Ask them a question. Is there anything I could ever say or do that would make you not love me?

And when I asked that question to each family member and then each friend, and they said, no, there's nothing you could ever do or say. It gave me permission to feel accepted for all my wounds, all my shame, all my embarrassments, all my pain, all my traumas. Now, I want to just throw these things on your guy friends or your girlfriends or whatever, or your family until you're, you feel safe and comfortable to do that. But, um, that process allowed me to feel like, oh, I am lovable. I am enough, even with all my past. And again, I think a lot of men in today's world feel like they're gonna get rejected with it's just a snarl a negative look at a woman that woman's gonna look at them negatively they're just like dismiss

them so quickly could quickly feel dismissed by a first date of someone just like oh you do that like did little disgust just like oh if they're disgusted at me for one little thing that i'm doing in my life right now what about all my wounds and all my trauma actually do yeah like there's no way they'll accept me or think i'm lovable if they really knew these things about me when they're so dismissive and now i'm not saying every woman is this way but it's just like if that's the experience they're feeling so i think women can understand and it's vice versa like men get to do the same thing for women too but i think women can say

can create a safe environment to see the whole person and all their past i'm not saying you have to do that in the first date or something but understand that we all have pain and trauma and everyone wants to be seen and loved and accepted and The more we can do that with ourselves the more that we can do that for others. Yeah, that's really great I mean all the great stuff and like you said before I just To simplify, you know men love compliments Like I always I'll tell out like gas your guy up make him feel good. Like I'm proud of you I don't need anything else, you know, like yes my ass really. Yeah, I'm proud of you. I don't need anything else. You know? I'll bust my ass for you. Truly, yeah. I will move mountains just to be like, man, I'm so grateful for you. And I just feel like we've kind of gone too long without acknowledging that almost.

Where it's just like, we don't need that. And men, you know, are partly to blame for acting like they don't care. Yes. Or to say, hey, you know what would really make me feel good? If you just said X, Y, or Z. Men aren't good at communicating that. And I'm sure women are saying, I wish that men complimented me as well more and told me I look nice and I appreciate this. And as they should, but it does, yes, it can go both ways. Well, that was really great. I really appreciate it. Again, we have some great calls lined up for

you. We'll, you know, Louis and I will talk a lot about our callers and I hope you guys enjoy this episode. I really enjoyed doing it with Louis. Louis, before we get about our callers, and I hope you guys enjoy this episode. I really enjoyed doing it with Louis. Louis, before we get to our callers, can you just remind our audience about your show, where they can follow you, all that great stuff that you're doing? I'm at Louis Howes everywhere online and School of Greatness podcast. All right. Well, be sure to check that out. And don't forget to send in those questions at AskNickAtTheVowFiles.com for all things

texting, office hours, mediation, all of the above. Let's get to our callers. How's it going? Hi, Nick. I'm Charlie and I'm 24 and I'm a gay man. And I can't tell if the guy that I like is also gay. Okay. Well, tell us a little bit more. All right. So it all started when I first followed him on Instagram a while ago when I was a senior in college.

He didn't go to my college, but he knew people that I interned with and we were studying like the same thing. So I just was like, makes sense. Nothing ever came out of that. But a couple months later, at the end of my senior year, he announced that he got a job in the same state as me, not in the same city, but in the same state. So he was the only person that I knew from back at home that also got a job in the state. So I stood up and I was like, Oh my gosh, congratulations. How cool. From there, we just kind of kept on the DMing back and forth. We started our jobs at the same time. So we'd always post about our jobs. We'd always like just kind of talk about like the industry. And then eventually that kind of like fizzled out. And then in the beginning of summertime, he had reached out to me was like, Hey, I'm going to be in your city. Would you want to get drinks with me? And I was like, Okay, yeah, sure. No problem.

and I didn't really think much about it at the time. But then as like the time started creeping up, I was like, wait, is this just kind of like a casual meetup because we're both, you know, in the same industry or is this kind of like a date? So I could try not to get in my head about it. And when I met him,

the first thing he does is give me a bro clap up. And I was like, okay, yep, this guy is straight. So honestly, that's totally fine because it was kind of like a is that usually a dead giveaway or like for me like i i never clap up like sometimes people try to give me a clap up i'm just like and it's a weird awkward handshake i'm just trying to think with my gay friends i guess we just usually hug when I greet them, but I don't. We definitely did the bro clap. Yeah, we, we, Lewis and I bro clapped up. Yeah, we.

Yeah. Like you will never, if you see me do that, it's kind of like a, and I do like one of these with my hand. It's just not, it is not cute. But anyway, so as soon as he did that, I was like, okay, that's a relief off my shoulders. I can just like not worry about like impressing anyone. And so we got drinks, we're at this like restaurant with like live music. And it was just so nice because, you know, again, he's like from my area. So it was nice to talk to someone from

my area, because I'm hundreds of miles, miles away from home. And then also just talking about the industry and you know, someone who can relate to that. And then eventually we were there, we were at the restaurant, I would say for maybe like four hours three or four hours just talking what was he doing in your city was he like it wasn't for work i was just about to get to that he was on a friend's trip like his friends just took a weekend trip to my city um but i found that out later and i'll tell you guys that in a second city um but i found that out later and i'll tell you guys that in a second okay um but eventually like the restaurant was closing the waitress was like hey guys like we're actually closing like so you guys like have to leave um not kicked out

but she was just like no but like you guys were really yes like you were like the one of the last people there if not like the last people there okay yeah um so eventually that's when i found out that he was here on a weekend trip with his friends and when we went out it was a saturday so i kind of just think like if you're on a weekend trip with your friends like saturday night is like the night when you like do stuff and like you told me that his friends were like doing other things and like it was just like me and him and like if he wanted to like get drinks for like two hours that is odd um yeah like yeah like two hours like that's totally fine because like the night would still be young but at this point it was like 11 11 30 what did you all talk about like was it i would it just kind of like the industry life back

at home like our career goals um at one point like i we started talking about kind of like the social scene or the dating life in our like relative cities and like for me i was just like yeah like guys here like i don't know i'm not like a big fan whatever and then like when he was talking about like the people in his town um he was just kind of like using like they them pronouns and like i just wasn't sure if he did that intentionally i don't think he did um he just i didn't hear she so he didn't say like girls or anything like that so i was like okay but you were you were specifically talking about from your point of view dating in your town and and you know as as the night went on and you guys were just maybe moved away from industry

talk and you were just kind of talking about life and, you know, as a 24, you're 24. Yeah. So as a 24 year old man, you're going to talk about dating and you're mentioning the men in this town, yada,

yada, yada. And then when he started talking, he's just saying. They, them. And yeah. So I think like where he lives is kind of like a college town.

So he was like saying like, oh yeah, the people here, they're like really young. And so like when I go out, like they're usually like under age, like he's just saying, or like not under age, but like not like 21 or just younger because we're like 23, 24. Gotcha. I don't remember that exactly, but just more like he just did not use girls or she, did you ask him at all? If he likes guys or girls,

did you say, Oh, who are you? Who are you into? No. Cause it was really like, the thing is like, it was our first time ever meeting.

Like we are kind of like, I guess like internet friends, but like not really, I would say like we're friends but it was like our first time meeting we weren't like on that level um what i mean i guess and i'm curious genuine question like what is that level i mean i guess i feel like in 2023 as a gay man are you are you still trying to like figure i'm clearly i mean i guess but you're still trying to figure out whether people uh you know other men in your case are gay or is it rude to ask?

Like, you know, hey, man, like 2023. I don't know. It's in L.A. It's just like, do you date men? Do you date women? I date men. Great. And moving on.

You know, like it's usually not like a state secret these days. But like for me, I feel like that's kind of like a like a bold question because you never really know like how someone's going to react. feel like that's kind of like a like a bold question because you never really know like how someone's gonna react i remember like when i was first coming out like a while ago um like when people would ask me that like before i came out i'd be like what no what are you talking about um would your voice change like that no like yeah i like my straight man voice like hey how you doing um but no i did not i did not want to ask that and like it just wasn't it was a very small part of like the entire night so it wasn't something that I really brought up all right so you guys get you base eventually the waitress is like hey guys you gotta leave how did the night end so it literally

just ended like he was like yeah I'm gonna meet with my friends but like um like I'll have to come visit again sometime and I was like yeah just yeah, just, like, let me know. And, like, we were just like, all right, bye. I can't, honestly, I don't remember. I don't, it was not another clap up, but I forget, like, how we said goodbye. But I think it was just, like, a regular, like, all right, see you later.

And then, so, like, again, like, after that, I was, like, all giddy, but I was trying not to get, you know, get my hopes up. And so, I mean, a couple weeks passed by. I would say almost, like, a month. And I honestly forgot about like this man. And again, he has a beach house, like in my like hometown.

So he posted on his Instagram story, like a picture of the beach with the location. And I like split up on it. I was like, I'm so jealous. How old is this person? Yeah. I mean,

24, he's like my age either 23 is it his beach house or is it his parents beach house oh his family his family's family's family damn sorry his family was gonna say is his beach house either he's lying to you or it was a 40 year old man it was yeah no no no or you can google it why he has this much money you know like it's like one of the three options but it's his family's property okay yes it's his family's property so um so he i set up on it i was like hey i'm like i'm jealous whatever and he was like um i'll bring you back some popcorn because like in our town like popcorn and eventually saltwater taffy are like big deals in

our area so um he was like where do you live myrtle beach yeah where do you live no we i live in um new jersey new jersey oh okay okay yeah so um after he said the popcorn i said oh and some saltwater taffy please so this begins saltwater taffy geek and and so he was like okay like what kind and i was like i'm just kidding you don't have to get me anything so he kind of like left it at that now this sounds very flirtatious yeah that starts to sound a little again again i don't really know i don't really know and so um he later that week he like texted me he, hey, like I'm here at the saltwater taffy place. Like what kind of saltwater taffy do you want? And I was like, I was just kidding.

You don't have to get me anything. And he was like, no, like, what do you want? I was like, I don't even know what kind of flavors they have. They have so many. And he was like a variety pack. It is. And I was like, well, you don't have to do that. There's some, there's a lot of women.

There's a lot of women out there like listening to this being like, I wish the guy liked paid this much effort, this much attention and went out of his way. A week later I remembered that I liked taffy. Yeah, right. The variety pack. I don't want to miss out. Yeah.

Exactly. And like, again, like I have, I have like straight friends and like, I just feel like that's not usually something like that they would do, or I wouldn't expect them to do that with a woman they're interested in. Yeah. Yes. So, and I remember like my friends over like at my job, I was telling them about this and they were like, it's weird. Like, is there something going on? going on but anyway so um eventually again he texted me he was like hey have you still ordered taffy uh like when am i coming to visit wow and i was like well like i know that you have off on these days but he said when am i coming to visit when are you coming to visit oh he asked you no no no when is he coming oh wow when am i he reached out to you he's like i got your taffy when you want me to when you want me to come deliver it to you yes yes so then i was like all right so like i know you have off like these days but i'm off like these days like if you want

to come down like these days we could like like plan a day or something and he like didn't respond but i was like it's not like that big of a deal so then I was like updating my calendar and I was like kind of thinking about it because you know I was kind of excited and I was like you know let me just let me just reach out so I was like hey like just want to check back in like did you have a certain day you like wanted to come down um so I can put in my planner radio silence so I was like okay all right well obviously i think i got a little bit too excited so i kind of just like left it at that eventually we just like start going back to like oh yeah over all this stuff is also over like phone texting so you took it off instagram yeah so it's off instagram so eventually we go back to just like dming back and forth like no big deal

just like commenting like four things and, like no big deal, just like commenting on like four things. And eventually we would sometimes like, like continue the conversation. And then he would just bring up like visiting. And I'm like, yeah, like come visit. But then there would just like be like no action. So then eventually, a couple of weeks ago,

me and my friend, we went to visit this new city that I wanted to explore um and I posted on my Instagram on my Instagram not like an Instagram story like an actual post like you know just like you know scenery pictures I think I was in like one of the pictures and it wasn't even just me it was just me and my friend and um he there's two comments on that post one from the friend that went on the trip with me and then he also commented on the post and he put three emojis that I was just like, I don't, I don't know what that means. He put the, he put the shocked face emoji,

heart eyes, heart eyes. And then yes. And then hand making a heart. And I was like, I don't know what that means but of course me being me i'm like and so for the rest of the week i'm like trying to figure out a way that you know i can have an excuse to like text this man so i remembered like that thanksgiving's coming up and i got off for the holidays so um i texted him i was like hey like did you get off for thanksgiving and he was like yeah i got off and i was like oh nice are you going to go like to the shore for like thanksgiving he was like no i'm actually probably going to stay here and he was like it's just too expensive i was like yeah that's understandable i said that

specifically because i was like you can either not respond or if you want to continue the conversation expensive real estate you can't afford a flight home no so i was like yeah it's understandable and i said like if he wants to continue the conversation he can um but if you were just leave it there it would it would not be like anything so then um he was like i was just thinking about like your city and i need to come down soon and i was like yeah like visit me whenever and then i was like oh well this taffy is probably getting like hard wait i was just about to get there nick wait so then i follow that up with dot dot dot also waiting on my saltwater taffy with the eyes. And then he responds with TBH.

I ate the taffy. And then he was like, and then I also added that I needed to come to his city because it's on my list of places I would like to explore. So after I said that, I was like, I'd like to visit your city because it's on my list of places I want to explore. What you should have said is now you have to make up for it when you see me. Oh, my God. And to see how he responded. Now, if you would have said that after you said I had to taffy,

you might've got some clarity right there. That's true. I wish I was that bold, but I was too busy freaking out. But then he was like, you should have my job send me to his city to, we're journalists. then he was like, you should have my job send me to his city to we're journalists. So he was like, you should have them have you cover a story in my city. And like, obviously, like he's in the business. So he knows that like my job would never like send me

to like his city to cover a story because like that wouldn't make any sense. So he was like, you should have them like send send you to my city and i was like i i wish i could do that but um they probably wouldn't do that but i have to come visit and then um he was like you should come like to like this city because like there's different places like different things different things to do and um i was like yeah like when i do eventually figure out a date you'll have to give me a list of recommendations of places to go. And I said that specifically because I was like, if he wanted to show me around, he would offer. So I left at that.

And then he responded with, yeah, dude, I'll have to show you around. So it was the dude that was throwing me off and then my roommate when he said uh that he that i should cover a story in his city she was like he's definitely like news flirting with you and i was like i don't know i do not know news flirting what's news flirting like i don't know like come pitch a city or pitch come pitch a story in my city like i don't know like there would be no his city is like two hours away. So there'd be no reason for me. Where are we now?

So that was like the last time we talked. He said happy birthday to me. My birthday was like on Sunday and he said happy birthday. And like, I was kind of dramatic about it. I was like, I really hope he like says happy birthday. And literally as I was dozing off into my slumber on the like the last few minutes of my birthday this guy's

interesting i get i get i get a text message from him and he says happy birthday and i was like oh thank you so much and then that was it who pays that much attention on birthdays also to be at midnight with a guy you know it's like you don't do that with your girlfriends it well it wasn't i was going to sleep around like 10 o'clock so it wasn't midnight it wasn't midnight but um he took the time he's just very intentional with you i i don't like i thought maybe here's the thing like repost stuff on instagram we you know who knows we amanda you probably remembers about a year ago year and a half ago we had a very similar caller a very lovely gentleman gay man had this friendship with this guy and as much as this guy is flirting with uh our our wonderful caller here this other story he was like there were examples of him like kind of caressing you know his shoulder they were going to take a trip together with friends

and we were just like and then we he you know he shared his instagram we didn't we didn't share it but he gave us reference and they looked like an adorable couple like you know you can only tell so much through through a picture yeah and we were just like well you know just shoot your shot man it sounds like there's a lot of potential there. You know, it was, you know, again, another young man around your age. So the thought is like, hey, maybe he just hasn't come out yet. Maybe he's shy, curious, doesn't really know. And he has a crush on you.

And he eventually shot a shot and got down. It got shut down pretty hard. You know, who knows? i mean i you know i don't you have more experience in this but like as you kind of referenced earlier coming out sadly and at least in some spaces of our world in our country can be still a very difficult and challenging moment because of you know family dynamics and, you know, their surroundings and friends and, you know, the dude comments and the dapping up with you, like, sure, yeah, that's more bro energy. But like, as you, I'm sure, no, you mentioned, you kind of joked,

you have your straight man voice. I think there's a lot of, you know, gay people in, I guess, in hiding kind of, you know, they have their masks on and they will change their behavior. And sometimes, you know, little things will creep through, you know, in terms of they'll forget to change their voice or, you know, I guess my answer is who fucking knows. You have every right though, I guess is my point to you're not crazy right i think lewis and i agree you're not crazy to wonder the heart eyes emojis that's like i would give my gay friends like will i comment on instagram that if you didn't know us anything about us someone could think i'm flirting sure but my friends we know each other we have a rapport you know the joke like i'm i'm very complimentary of them they know i'm a straight man they they are familiar with

natalie they have a relationship with her so there's no there's no way to confuse that guessing yeah yeah you know you guys don't have that rapport he seems to very be very well aware of that you're gay and your sexuality um i mean it's pretty obvious so i guess this is all to say like you know you've heard me you you have the right to ask or at least you know put it out there now you might ask and he may say no yeah but that doesn't mean it's not true that he has curiosities or he's gay or he's interested in you he just may be afraid to be vulnerable and open. And I think a lot of people are afraid to be vulnerable and open

in general, you know, even if they're a straight man and being vulnerable and open with a woman. So I think it's, uh, you may ask, you may be right, but he still may say, no, that's not me. That's very true. Yeah. I mean, I just really wanted to get some advice because like my, when I explained to my friends, I just ended up feeling like I am like really reading into things because I'm like, I don't know if there's just like nothing going on in my love life that I am just kind of like, I see a guy that I find the cute and then like we text or we, he slides up on my Instagram. So then I get excited just because that's all that's going on. Sure.

And then like, I also don't know if I'm mistaking like kindness, but because he's a very nice person for like flirting. But then my experience, I'm like, I just feel like I can usually tell. But in this instance, I just cannot tell whatsoever. I think the answer to both those questions you have is is is yes right like the fact that you reference hey my love life has been kind of slow regardless of this man's sexuality and his interest in you it's you're having fun you know you're it's dramatic you know you're having fun wondering you're talking your friends, you're just kind of invested in the story. And that's totally okay.

And so is the drama of this all is making you more invested in him than you otherwise would? Sure, like anyone else, regardless of their sexuality, the drama of the scenario will sometimes make us more into people, the chase, you know, the wondering, the suspense. It is keeping you preoccupied.

And so, you know, just remember that if you don't get the answer you want, instead of like crashing down and being all sad about it, just, you know, maybe it's just the whole storyline that you're more invested rather than him. This is not to say there might be potential there and you maybe you find him attractive and you said he's nice and then on the uh what was the other part you mentioned oh and that's that you're just not you're you have the right to you're not crazy yeah you know like regardless of what he says yeah you're reading into it but the heart eyes emojis and

things like that for him not to make it clear what who he dates knowing that you're a gay man and then yeah that's that's interesting he's he's clearly flirting what do you what do you want from this relationship do you want to explore dating this person do you just want to know if he's gay or not yeah do you want to just be friends do you rather just cut him off eventually if he's not interested so you could actually get into a healthy, conscious relationship? What is the thing that you want? I think for right now, I think I just want some like clarity on like, if he is gay or not, just because like, then I can like either they can just continue being friends because again, he's a really nice guy he also works in the same industry as me so just someone who can relate to me like on a different level um but i mean if he was gay

and like things were to i guess develop or get more serious i would be open to that but like i don't even like i would cross that bridge when i get there i just want to know if he's gay or not are you willing to ask are you willing to ask so so here's the thing so my one friend did tell me that like um i should just like go like to his city and like just hang out another time because we've only hung out once and just like, see what the vibe is. Cause like, if I were to go to like his city and like, but would you go if you knew that he wasn't gay and interested in dating you?

I would, I would go. I think I would have to, I would need some like time just like, so I don't have like, are you really sure? I mean, that's like you,

you text him or call him, you put yourself out there and it's some version of, Hey, uh, I don't know if I'm crossing a line here, but you know, I'm gay and I've really enjoyed spending time with you. And I just want to be respectful because I've been a little confused, you know, are you in, you know, something right. And he shoots you down hard and he can't, maybe it's a little, nah, man, like I'm, I think you're wonderful, but like, you know, no, man, like I'm, I think

you're wonderful, but like, you know, I'm very straight and I'm just not into that. And he's just like, but I hope we can be friends. Yeah. Would you still want to go and be friends? Yeah. And then he kind of like, he distances himself for a couple of weeks to this awkward. You really are. You're going to, you're going to get on a plane and go visit him.

Actually, when you say it like that i'm like i'm not actually really sure i think i don't think you will how strong is the friendship you're looking to build with this guy yeah i would actually probably be like i don't really know because also on the list of places i would like to explore like his city like it's not like top of priority like there's a bunch you're going for him yeah like it's a city that you would enjoy seeing if there was someone you wanted to go visit and spend time with and sure yeah show me around your town but i really want to see you how long has this conversation been going since you guys followed each other in the first contact till now um since we first followed each other it's been i would say almost two years

and he flew out when he flew out to your city with his friends, but left his friends to spend the entire night with you. Drove, but drove. That was two years ago. No, no, no.

So we, that was when we first fought each other. Um, I would say when we hung out, it was in the beginning of summer. Yeah. Okay. It was like,

yeah, I was like, I mean, he's, I don't know, man. I ask him. I think you got to ask him. Yeah. Yeah. I think a, yeah, I was like, man, he's, I don't know, man, ask him. I think you got to ask him.

Yeah. Yeah. I think this has all been fun and you've enjoyed the drama of this whole interaction. You've, you've loved talking to your friends. It is. It's fun.

Hey man, you get together with friends. Oh my God, let me tell you the story. Right. It's been fun for you and you're having fun telling us and we're having fun talking with you. But if,

if your goal is, and, and Lewis asked you, what is your goal? And you're, and you're having fun telling us and we're having fun talking with you but if if your goal is and and lewis asked you what is your goal and you're and you said i just want to find out man where i stand with him if he's into men yes or no and the only way to get a clear answer is just to politely ask and there's you know like just it's yeah well here's the thing and you're thinking about this it sounds like you're thinking about this off and on maybe every time you post maybe you're like in the back of your mind subconsciously thinking will he leave an emoji what emoji you're like nodding and shake you're like getting giddy now because this is probably what's happening every time i post is he gonna text me today is this and you know i'm assuming you know that where you put your

thoughts is where you put your energy and so if you're putting your thinking around this guy, every move you make, is he going to reply? Is he to remember it's my birthday? Is he going to check in on me on Monday mornings to get, tell me, have a great week. All these things are taking your energy and your time. And that's cool. If you want to drag this on for two more years. But if you have a vision and your heart is open and full and you want to connect with someone, you want to have a meaningful relationship, then you got to start putting your thoughts and your time and your attention in other areas that serve that vision for yourself? So that's just my opinion. It's like a little thread in my mind. And, and again, you could go two more years and say, will this happen?

This whole fantasy, or you can get clarity, like you said, and clarity, as you know, takes courage. It takes courage to ask courageous questions and be willing to be rejected. I think I've heard you talk about this when I think Kristen asked you a question. Cavallari asked you like, okay, you're dating someone for a few months. When do you know,

like who, how do you communicate? You want this to be a commitment. Yeah. And I can't, I think maybe you just said like, Hey, I want to be committed to you.

Yeah. You just got to state your intentions of what you want. And you were like, well, that means you might have to walk away if they say no. Yeah. And that takes courage. Yeah, it just got to state your intentions of what you want. And you were like, well, that means you might have to walk away if they say no. Yeah. And that takes courage. Yeah, it absolutely does.

But like you said, clarity is, you know, rejection is, I always say, like, rejection is clarity because it's an answer. It's freedom, too. And you just, you're going to, Lewis is saying everything I would say, so it's great to have him here. And I love to hear his point of view because it's always nice to hear him say it in a slightly different way and articulate it but you've heard me say that if you listen to this show like your your your your time is not infinite yeah and your energy that you have is not infinite as well right and so you're just going to have to ask yourself is that you know this is a juice worth the squeeze you're just going to have to ask yourself, is that, you know, this is a juice worth the squeeze. You're having fun now, right?

It is entertaining. I've said this. You can see how his body just moves and shakes and his like heart is pounding and he's like smiling. Just him thinking about this whole scenario. But you have to ask yourself, you know, you mentioned earlier, my dating life is a little slow. Well, it's like a chicken before the egg argument. Is it slow? Because the past six months, all your energy around dating has gone into figuring out whether this man is into you or not. And it's probably way more than you even realize. That's energy you could be, A, just simply putting into your dating life in other spaces or putting into yourself,

putting into your job, into your friends. And I think we always have to be mindful of how much energy we put into any one thing or any one person. And I think we have a habit of kind of getting comfortable with this one thing. And if you have an obsessive personality, which I know I do, you get like laser focus and then someone, and we make all these excuses for at the end of the day, why it's just more comfortable for us to zero in on this one thing or this one person rather than spread our wings and kind of see what else is out there no yeah and i bet the biggest fear is like the story will end yeah this story that you've been living in for two years is either going to end or evolve in some

way yeah and that's a it's almost like a death if i have this conversation this relationship has the potential to die and you don't want that to die because it's interesting it's curious it's fun it's scary it's risky you're you're feeling things you've never felt probably or maybe you have and you like them but it may not be healthy feelings they may be exciting feelings but those chemicals may be from a wound rather than from a healed place. And that may be the attraction where you're getting all this energy and these chemicals. And, oh, what's the emoji? Is he gay?

Is he straight? What if he converts from straight to gay for me? All these different stories that could be in your mind or maybe not but that's a lot of chemicals but you yeah i mean you're smart you've you've probably fantasized about all these storylines and you've gone to bed and they're like oh my god like what if he did this oh my god but yeah i mean i mean it's true yes i mean i have just been like oh like wouldn't it be just like so nice like we like have so much in common. He's so, he's so nice. So cool. And then, but then I'm just like, Oh, but we don't even know if like, if he even likes boys. So

and this whole time he could just be playing with you. Yeah. That's the, that's the thing that, you know, and I'm sure women have experienced a lot of this. He could just be playing with you because he knows that you are gay. And I'm not saying he has bad intentions, but he could just be like, oh, I'm living my life. I'm not in the same city. So I can kind of have this curious, fun type of friendship, weird relationship thing. Get this person really into me, which I'm sure women have experienced from men who are not fully committed or interested long term. Just want the attention.

Just like the intention. Oh, it's like a little game. It's harmless. But when emotions and your heart is involved, you know, you're the one who's going to be hurting at the end of the day. Now you benefit from this.

Also, you get something out of this also, but you got to ask yourself, what is it you really want? Yeah. Yeah. I think you guys hit it right on the money. Like,

I think I just genuinely like the feeling of like having a crush like having like something juicy to tell my friends yeah um and then like i don't know i haven't like felt i haven't genuinely like like someone in like a really long time i've dated other people like during the summertime and stuff like that i just like kind of like ended it just because like, it wasn't really something that was like totally invested in. But like with him, it's just like,

Oh, like he's like, I like his personality. And then I like, you gotta be careful because you don't genuinely like him either. You, you, you genuinely like the idea of them,

you know, and you've created a lot of, that's true fantasies about who he is as a person, you know, you know him a little bit, but he's also a bit flaky, you know. And you've only met him in person once in two years. You really don't know him that well, you know. That's true. I always forget about that part.

And you've thought a lot more about him. That's how people fall in love on The Bachelor, literally. You know, the fantasy, because it's a relationship that you, is more with withholding love. You have a few minutes, you have some interactions. You're hoping. Yeah, you know, you fantasize because it's a relationship that you is more with withholding love. You have a few minutes. You have some interactions. You're hoping. Yeah, you have the moment. You're just like, oh, and then they pull you away, you know, and then they go back to their lives.

They go back. You know, when you go back to the house, they go on other dates. So then you're jealous and you're like, oh, my God, are they thinking about me? Are they thinking about me? And all while that you're sitting at the house, you're just like fantasizing what a life would like be like and you're falling in love with the idea of them we we all do that right like what if they pick me yeah what if they pick me you're you're you're you're on the bachelor you're like having you're fighting with your competitors in your head for the love of this person so by the time you get to the end you have gone to battle jeez you know so

to speak but that's what people do like in it's just a heightened version of of life i really think this would be a growth opportunity for you ask him to to end this fantasy it's been fun it's played out to lewis's point but i think you need some clarity so that you can either accept where things are at and and maybe there's something there with this guy but i think right now you know because otherwise you know this will eventually fade away most likely by him kind of ghosting you or not getting an answer you don't want and i say this from personal experience like you just don't you want to get in the habit of once you are confused about someone's intentions to have the guts and to get that clarity because of once you are confused about someone's intentions to have the guts

and to get that clarity, because otherwise you're going to keep, you're going to waste a lot more of your time. And right now this is pretty harmless for you. You know, it's not really costing you much, but event that will always be the case. Just your love life. Yeah. It's only costing you a beautiful, incredible life of love with someone else. Yeah.

So now maybe you're not interested in that because you're in your young 20s, so you're like, hey, that's not what I want right now. I just want to have fun and just be curious with different people. But it's harmless unless your vision and your dream is to have a healthy, loving relationship. Then it's costing you everything you dream of.

Dang, yeah. You guys were right. Nick, have you ever challenged someone to FaceTime the person live and ask them the question? A couple of weeks ago, we had someone text someone for divorce. No, they did not.

They texted them. It was a unique situation where he was just unavailable and not taking her seriously and it was like it was more her kind of standing up for herself in a way they had spent two days together in the last month three months they were married they were married it was a real sad story he was like hunting it was it was a sad and so it was more of an empowering moment i still we still need an update wow um would you i actually just

listened to that episode i love that oh wow yeah you gotta you gotta ask this person this week and then come back in like a month and give the recap you know oh we yeah we do updates oh that's great yeah um i do think if you want we can help you draft a text to this guy okay we can do that i don't know if i'm gonna send it though right now why not yeah you've heard me say this before there will not you will never be a time where you're gonna feel like know what now i want to send this you're always gonna have to get over this wall this hurdle of of getting this clarity because it as lewis pointed out it's fear he doesn't want the story to end you can see it in in his body language he doesn't

want the story yeah it's like when you have to delete photos of your ex you know you find you know you you don't want it to end the fantasy yeah all right well fine is this an active situation it is an active situation yes oh god i'm so excited but you have to promise if we're gonna draft it you have to promise to send it and you have to show us that you're sending it. Fine. Deal. Do we have your word? You have my word. If we can virtual handshake. We have the bro shake.

A clap up. Alright, so let's start. Ready? Okay. Hey, blank. Okay. I'm a slow texter. How just say hi in your however you would say hi to him hey sweetie yes hey darling hey sweet cheek what's going on um

well how would you start okay how would you start. I want it to be in your like, Hey, so a bit of an odd question, but it's been something that I've been thinking about recently. Okay. And I would just like some clarity. There you go. Perfect. Direct. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. It doesn't have to be some long drawn out. Yeah. It can be short and sweet. Gosh, I'm so bad at texting I'm sorry guys

you could voice text too oh that's true I do love a good voice this is a bit of a question I'm going to do voice to text oh gosh the mic was on but I've been thinking about it a lot and I would just like some clarity period um

are you gay like i don't know i mean i feel like that that's really direct you could just say like i've really enjoyed spending time with you and getting to know you our connection yeah yeah and i would be lying if i said um that sometimes i find myself thinking about you more than friends okay okay i've been really i i've really enjoyed getting to know you and talking to you guys said yeah whatever you want to say yeah our connection or our interactions would saying and i'd be lying if i said that i haven't caught feelings you could do that be sure is that good yeah if that's how you feel i'm fine with it and then you could say that being said i have really no idea you you know, if, if you're even, you know, who you date or if you're even

interested in men at all. Yeah. And I have no expectations. And I have, yeah, I have no expectations, but I just, I wanted to put myself out there and simply just kind of check in. I hope that, you know, and you can kind of finish it how you want. And I appreciate, I appreciate our friendship either way yeah i wanted to be respectful and just be direct and and come out and ask you yeah okay guys at all yeah you could say like i figured it'd be but it would be more mature just to be direct and ask rather than guess you know guess or make an awkward move that you wouldn't appreciate or something like that.

Okay. So I have, Hey blank, this is a bit of an odd question, but I've been thinking about it a lot and I would just like some clarity. I really enjoy getting to know you. And I'd be lying if I said that I haven't caught some feelings. That being said,

I really have no idea if you're interested in guys at all. I thought it'd be more, it'd be more mature. Just ask, just ask you directly. Um, and regardless, um, you know, I, I, I really value our, and regardless of how you feel, I value our friendship. There you go. Okay.

Man, this is exciting. Hope to hear from you. Yeah. Okay. This is exciting. Now, would you also give this same advice to a woman who's just kind of casually hanging out with a guy oh yeah we've we've sent a lot of these a lot of these yeah so almost the exact same thing right yeah i find that like you know

there's obviously a lot of difference between men and women gay or straight but you know 95 percent of the time regardless of your gender or sexuality we all have the same fears and concerns and we make all the same excuses and i think we have more similarities and differences i have found especially in just in general social dynamics you know and um all right sounds great i think we're ready to send it i have drafted it i put a smiley face up then is that okay that's right yeah okay do you have the courage to send it right now? Yeah. Send it.

I do. I do. I do. Honestly, because then I have to go to work and I'm just like, it's fine. It's fine. Everything's fine. It is fine. And, you know, he may not respond.

Really, anything's possible. And like Lewis said earlier, you know, this may be a guy who is struggling with his sexuality and just, you might catch him off guard. He might not be ready to come out, you know, or maybe he is just fucking with you. Cause he likes the attention. It's really, everything's on the table.

But I think you, once you send it, be proud of yourself that you put yourself out there. Yes. And, and, and honestly, like,

don't, don't just like dismiss it as like, this was like a big step for you because it is very difficult for people to do what you're doing right now to be that vulnerable, to put yourself out there, you know? And, as Lewis pointed out, like this is you are willing to potentially close this chapter of your life, which hasn't really gotten anywhere, but has been a lot of fun for you. Yes, I will say it is a great story. And like, I do smile when I think about it. So it's totally fine.

I'm just going to read it one more time before I send it just to make sure there's no grammar issues. Because if he's not interested, at least my grammar is right. All right. So this is a bit of an odd question, but I've been thinking about it a lot. And I would just like some clarity. I've really enjoyed getting to know you. And I'd be lying if I said that I haven't caught some feelings. That being said, I really have no idea if you're interested in guys at all.

I thought I'd be more mature just to ask you directly. I have no expectations and regardless of how you feel, I value our friendship. I hope to hear from you. Perfect. Send it. Send it. Okay. We're sending it

let's see that it's blue there we go congratulations that's huge that's exciting you are not going to die you did a great thing treat yourself today

whatever you do to treat yourself a Starbucks or I don't know there you go the more frequently you do whatever you do to treat yourself a starbucks or i don't know you know the more frequently you do this this is a big leap you know so don't take it lightly if you've you've never really done this it's been two years you've been thinking of having this conversation and uh you know luckily you've got the maestro of words nick over here who's telling you what to say to to make sure it's authentic. But it is a big leap. And you get to acknowledge yourself for, you know, even if it seems small, I just sent this text.

It wasn't that big a deal. It is a big deal because vulnerably, courageously, you had to do something you've been thinking about for two years. And most people never have that courage. They just live in limbo. So congrats to you. Oh, thank you. I literally, I kind of just wrote in,bo. So congrats to you. Oh, thank you. No, I, I literally,

I kind of just wrote in, like, I was like literally like flying back home. I kind of wrote in just kind of as like a way to like get out all my feelings. And I was like, Oh, let's see what, like, I'm going to send it into the bio file. I'll see what Nick has to say. And I did not expect to hear from you guys at all. Um, but I really do appreciate the advice. Cause I was like, Nick, he'll give me some amazing advice. And Louis, thank you so much for your insight. Please keep us posted. We definitely want an update regardless.

Okay. But regardless of his answer, you did a great thing. Yes. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. All right. Take care. All right.

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Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but enjoying free shipping on any U.S. orders over $75 and free returns. Go to Viore.com slash V-I-A-L-L and discover the versatility of Viore clothing. How's it going? Hi, Nick. My name is Caroline and I am 31. My name is Pamela and I am 54. Nice to meet you both. And how can we help? I wrote in because I'm wondering if my mom is hung up on the spark or if her boyfriend just isn't the right guy. And when I first wrote in to you guys a few months ago, I thought maybe it was an issue of her being hung up on the spark.

And I think my perspective has changed a little bit. And I'm starting to think maybe he's not the right guy, as sad as that makes me to say. Okay. What makes you think that? I think they started off pretty strong. They've been together for five years this month. And when they started, they seemed really compatible. They seemed to balance each other out. My mom is my best friend. She also has a strong personality. And she has some

pretty quirky humor. And he had the same humor. And he just embraced her for who she was. And they seemed to have so much fun together. And they seemed really happy. And my mom had been single for, gosh, over a decade. Yeah. So seeing her that happy just brought me a lot of joy to see. The past year and a half, things have kind of taken a turn where she is coming to me for advice, saying things like she doesn't feel as in love with him as she used to. She wonders if they'd be better off as friends. My mom also really

values her independence. And I kind of observe her getting annoyed when he's around too much. And to me, those seemed like things like maybe they're just going through the cycle of getting used to or being in a long term relationship and kind of just getting into a rut and, and that spark going away. So at first, that's why I thought she was just addicted to the spark. And she wasn't feeling that anymore. And they weren't communicating to get that spark back. I think over time, she's opened up to me a bit more about her relationship struggles with him. It seems that he has a lot of insecurities and often looks for reasons to accuse her of flirting with other men. And mostly when I see them together, they're just

not happy anymore. They don't smile around each other anymore. They're not really affectionate with each other. They used to hug on each other. They don't do that. So it's just kind of slowly unraveling and the communication is not getting any better. Does this all sound accurate, mom? Yeah, that sounds accurate. Okay. Well, how do you feel about him? Like right now? I love him. I mean, he's an amazing man. What do you love about how he makes you feel?

I think that he really loves me. I feel that. Okay. Um, does he accept you? I would say yes, for the most part. Um, however, he, he has been a little bit insecure lately. Um, and he kind of accuses me of flirting with people. And like she said, and I've always been the same personality that I am. And when, so when he's accusing you of flirting, what, what's the scenario or what's the situation where he is? Is it like online flirting? You're liking photos of guys or you're out in public or no, we don't even share social media anymore he he doesn't he doesn't want to see men commenting on me so we don't share media any longer you're not on social media anymore because of that no i'm on social media i i use it for business and and whatnot um but

we don't we don't uh friend each other okay okay oh you're not connected on like instagram he's not following you you're not following him or facebook or yeah you're not just because the insecurity is so big or what i think so i he he said that he does not want to see what other men comment interesting how old is he uh 52 okay how old are you? Uh, 54. Okay. That seems excessive. How many men are commenting on your Instagram? I don't know. I mean, not that many from my perspective. I agree. That seems excessive. I mean, she's not, she's not the most tech savvy, not to be rude. Like she, she's not posting stories. She's not tagging people to get attention. She's not interacting with followers. I mean, her followers are friends and family. No booty shots, mom. Yeah. You know,

but so, okay. Other than this kind of weird internet behavior or these kind of weird boundaries that he seems to have with your, you know, you guys being friends on Instagram, but are there other specific scenarios where he has accused you of flirting? Yeah. I mean, just if I receive a phone call, he gets a little, sometimes he gets a little nervous of who it is or if I'm going to meet with them or, and you know, it could be a client. Do you think he trusts you? He says he doesn't. He says he doesn't trust you. Yeah. He said he used to trust me with his life and now he doesn't. He says he doesn't trust you. Yeah, he said he used to trust me with his life, and now he does not. Oh, wow.

Did you ask him why? Yeah. And what did he say? I have. He says he just doesn't trust me, and that's all he says is, I just don't trust you. Well, it's hard to be in a relationship without trust. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Agreed. I mean, we used to trust each other but and he so he's like i don't trust you you're like hey can you explain why and he's like i just don't well i mean he does i do have a lot of guy friends um but not i don't go to lunch with them i'm not hanging out with them i don't go to the bars with them. I don't drink with them. They don't come over to my home. What do you know about his dating past? I mean, has he been hurt in the past? Has he been cheated on? Yeah. By one person, he was cheated on, a wife, and that hurt him pretty bad.

Sure. What has he done to deal with that? Oh, he went to therapy. He works through a couple years of therapy. Is he in it anymore? No, he refuses. He refuses? Yeah. We tried it. We tried couples counseling for a little while.

And now he says that didn't work. So we're not going back. What didn't work about it? I think from his perspective, the counselor and I tended to see eye to eye on a lot of things. He felt ganged up. Yeah, I think he felt ganged up. And it was a male. And I tried very, very hard to make sure that that did not happen or that he didn't feel that way. But in the throes of therapy, truths tend to come out. And i think sometimes people will get into couples therapy as a way to get the partner that they think should be in therapy into therapy

you know and while couples therapy i think is wonderful and can be great for a couple to like iron out you know it's really just about, again, how to better communicate, you know, get on the same page. A good couples therapist really just kind of plays mediator, you know, they're playing referee there, you know, when you're talking and expressing frustrations you're having, they're paying attention to like the body language of how your partner's hearing and seeing it and knowing when to check in. Because when we are in conflict with our our partners we're not really paying attention if they're listening to us and receiving what we're saying and things like that so we'll just talk over them and and things like that and a good couples therapist will play around for a week but yeah if you it's not to me the way you're

describing it it's like whatever therapy he had in the past to deal with the trauma that he experienced from his you know past wife cheating on him or girlfriend, whoever it was, he didn't fix that problem. It's still an issue for him. And whatever tools he learned or didn't learn, he either isn't a practicing him anymore or it didn't, you know, he kind of, he just stopped, you know, like therapy can be an ongoing thing for, for, for the trauma that we experience. And mom, have you guys created a vision for the relationship you guys want to create with clear agreements around how you live your lifestyle, uh, work friends?

Like, have you created those agreements? So there's clarity on what the rules of engagement are for your relationship? Yeah, initially, we did. Initially, we had kind of big plans. And circumstances changed, obviously, COVID kind of changed our world, not just our lives, but our world. And so a lot of the plans that we were engaging in changed. And he's actually still upset about that because he said we had a plan. What was the plan? The plan was to move, to move out of California.

And, you know, I felt that the majority of the responsibility fell upon me because I have a home, I actually have two homes, so I would have to sell one. Um, and I didn't want to, I didn't want to leave my family. So, and then when the situation changed in the world, um, my situation changed, my income changed, everything changed. And I tried to explain them. We did, we did live together for three, four years. Yeah. And then he moved out. He moved out last year. And that, if I can just chime in on the moving situation, that was already kind of a point of contention early on in their relationship. He was pretty ready to move in early.

And my mom was hesitant. And her and I had a talk. And I said, look, mom, I listen to you religiously, Nick. I'm married, but I just love listening to you. And I think you're so rational in the advice you give. So I was trying to channel you. And I said, mom, if you're not ready, I don't think you're going to be starting off on a good foot moving in with someone that you're not ready to move in with and it was her home and at the

time she was the higher earner oh yeah um and kind of supporting him and there was some resentment still higher earner yeah at that time yeah and that's for not right now he's a higher okay yeah yeah the But I could be. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. The rules have kind of reversed a little bit with COVID and things changing and then her trying to build up her own business. So we had a clear talk and she said, okay, I'm going to communicate that. My mom is really strong-willed and is not afraid to communicate her opinion, but called me a few hours later and she said, okay, you're moving in.

I went, what? I was a little shocked. So I also think my mom's very good at communicating, but from my perspective, and I know I'm not with them all the time. It seems like there's a little bit of a soft spot that she has with him where she communicates, but somehow he still convinces her otherwise. And I'm not really sure where that's coming from. Yeah. You don't have the boundary for yourself of what you really want. You know, I do, but I would, so I guess the situation for me is I, in the past, I've had some commitment issues. Um, I went through a very, very bad divorce. So I sometimes think that being single is a really good choice for me. And, um, so in the past, I've kind of questioned my patterns, to be honest,

my patterns of relationships and my fear of commitment. Yeah, it's always good to reflect and question, but in this particular relationship, it doesn't seem like you have commitment issues. It almost seems like the opposite. You know, I'm curious, when he moved out,

was there a break? Did you guys distance yourself or did he just moved out and you guys kept dating? Like you don't usually hear that very often, you know, when someone moves out and you stay together. Yeah. And you're still together. So, so what happened is he, he had a jealousy episode when I was at my other home. What does that look like? Is that a screaming? Is it slamming? Is it?

No, you know, we actually don't do that. We've never been really mean to each other in that sense. And we don't really yell at each other or anything like that. But I was there and he thought because I needed a break, I needed time away from talking to him because he got jealous of something that was silly. I said, I just need a break for the next two days. I just I don't want to talk to you. He was living with me at the time.

And he said, fine, I'll move out on the date before I got home. And I was like, you know, these threats have just become so, at least once a year, I'm done with the threats. That's fine. You can move out. And when he picked me up from the airport, he hadn't moved out. So the next day I said, I expect you to move out. And we did break up. And I was going through the motions, feeling the pain, you know, getting through it.

And he asked if we could meet and he wanted to go to couples counseling, you know, attend church together, just do things that I think he thought that I wanted to do. And I want to travel. So he says, I'll work on my traveling abilities. And for a couple of months, it was nice nice i felt very soft about it i felt very um cautious almost after you you're in an accident and when you stand up you're kind of careful you know not to hurt yourself again i i was very cautious in that sense um however he was really trying hard so i said you know we'll give it a go and counseling ended because that didn't work um and it's just

been like this ever since it just feels like it went right back into old patterns except that we don't live together question for you mom um yeah if you could do a quick uh exercise like a 10 second exercise if you could put your hand on your one hand on your heart and one hand on your stomach. If you take three deep breaths and just drop in for a second. And as you take these three deep breaths, ask yourself, is this the man I want to be with? Yes or no. What is the thing that's coming up for you in your body? Yes and no. I don't want to lose the friendship. what is the thing that's coming up for you in your body? Yes. And no,

I don't want to lose the friendship, but I don't know that. I mean, I know that I don't want to marry him. I mean, he's asked multiple times. So you don't want to marry him, but you don't want him out of your life.

So I feel like I'm being more selfish. Yeah. Yeah. But what I'm hearing is, you know, he's not the right one for you. Yeah. Cause if I'm interpreting what was going on in your hearing is, you know he's not the right one for you. Yeah. Because if I'm interpreting what was going on in your body,

because, you know, the first thought was, I don't know. No, he's not my guy. But I don't want to lose him. But there are things about him and the relationship and the companionship, and there's a bunch, you know, you care about the guy. You clearly have some good moments, you know. There's a lot of great stuff about this relationship do you feel emotionally safe with him a hundred percent of the time no do you want

to be in a relationship where you don't feel emotionally safe is that a vision for your ideal relationship so so when you say emotionally safe I think that it's probably the most emotionally safe I've ever been in any relationship. I do trust him. Yeah. And I do believe in him. Yeah. But he doesn't trust me, which is. And he's unpredictable.

You know. He's a little unpredictable. One day he wants to live with you. The other day he wants to threaten to move out. One day he wants to do couples therapy. Then says i'm never doing it again yeah yeah and emotionally it sounds like you have to walk on eggshells yeah a little bit and you know i feel bad because um he's a wonderful man and you know i i read your book and it seems like it was very geared towards 20s and 30s and you you know, finding your life partner and getting married, maybe having a family and things like that.

Maybe not marriage, but living together forever or whatever. And it's kind of I've already done all that. I've got kids. I've been married, divorced. I have the home. I have all this that stuff in mind. So at this point, it's just growing old with somebody and growing old with somebody that I'm compatible with, that I can laugh with and that I can travel with.

And that would have my back in times when, you know, I fall and break a hip or something like that. Does he have your back? He doesn't trust you though. Yeah. I don't know. I think he does have my back a lot of ways.

It sounds conditioned. Yeah. If you don't know i think he does have my back a lot of ways sounds conditioned yeah if you don't if you if you're not flirting with guys or if it doesn't look like you're flirting with guys or if you're not speaking to certain people that i you know don't approve of then emotionally triggered and then i'll yeah then i'll live with you under this condition yeah he hates all my friends it's bizarre yeah yeah and my friends are pretty nice. And he says he's worried about some of my friends. I'm like, they range from 50 to 60 years old. They're pretty harmless.

We might have a bottle of wine, but that's about it. He sounds like a really swell guy, a nice guy. He is, actually. Good character, generally, overall. Someone you could trust him to babysit or whatever and do the right thing. Yeah, he's not physically abusive. He's not screaming at you. No, no.

But he also sounds like a guy who's experienced some pretty painful trauma, whether that was just his wife cheating on him, or maybe that trauma is even deeper, that maybe could even go all the way back to a childhood thing that he hasn't really resolved. And he seems unwilling to actually resolve it. And that's great. He did some therapy and it's great. He did couples therapy, but clearly either he wasn't patient enough or open enough to receiving the therapy, or maybe he just didn't find the right therapist. You know, maybe it's just,

he gave up on it too quickly. And instead of trying to actually heal and get himself to a place where he could really be the best partner he could be to anyone, he kind of stopped short. And now he, his way of dealing with it is to set these kind of crazy rules and expectations and boundaries with you and find a person who's willing to kind of put up with his unpredictableness and his kind

of emotional you know immaturity really um and so far you've been willing to do that but you're you know you're only 54 you're not going to break your hip anytime soon yeah and you got a lot sure but you got a life and i hope you have a lot of life in front of you and a lot of good years in front of you and you know i know dating and being single can be tough but i love that you mentioned that like quite honestly you seem to be comfortable being alone and being single, if you were. And you have a lot of great guy friends, it sounds like. I do. I have neat friends that I used to work with, and I was in a male-dominated business.

And so, you know, those were the friends. Those were the work friends, anyway. And they're just a text or a phone call, but I'm not hanging out with them and I'm not interested in anybody else. I could literally be single. It doesn't sound like you guys have alignment on what you both want. He wants you for himself and not to have other friends. You want to have a great partner who trusts you fully and accepts you for who you are and you need to accept them and trust them fully but you don't have alignment there and so you could have

great days but then if one thing sets him off he's triggered like nick was saying and then you're back to well you don't trust me and what's going on we should do therapy no i don't want to do it and then you're just kind of out of alignment so he could be an awesome guy like nick is saying like it doesn't sound like he's abusive but no he's great he wants someone who for himself and you don't want to be you know in a life where you're just isolated with one person you want to have a life you want to travel you want to have friends where you're not feeling restricted to be able to talk to people. And I think that's fair as long as you're not crossing boundaries. Right.

And long as you're not like flirting and intentionally behind his back and, you know, making plans with other guys, I guess that would be uncomfortable. But creating those agreements, it sounds like you guys haven't figured out. Creating those agreements, it sounds like you guys haven't figured out. Yeah. But instead of showing that humility and vulnerability at his 52-year-old man to say, hey, maybe I've got some work to do. And instead of working on himself and doing the difficult work, his solution is to expect you to accommodate his individual needs and work around his insecurities and his shortcomings at a cost to you, at a cost to you, questioning your friendships. Do you know, am I actually being a bad partner? Like, am I doing something wrong? Like, you know, that's not every once in a while in relationships, we have to check in with ourselves.

And sometimes we might get accused of something we didn't do. But this is an ongoing thing with you. And that takes its toll. You know, you know, am I doing something wrong? And like, you're, you're questioning yourself. If you're a good partner or not, you're not doing anything wrong. It sounds like, and, and this is all because, you know, he's just not willing or brave enough or have the courage to do the work. And also, it doesn't make him, you know, a bad person if that's the type of relationship he wants. If he's like, you know, I want you for myself and I want to be able to trust you. But when you do these things, I don't feel trust.

Yes, he's got to work on those things. And that just may be the style of relationship he wants. And he hasn't found the match of person who's willing to give him that agreement. You have a different lifestyle of living. And he has something different from you. And that's, again, doesn't make you wrong or him wrong or whatever. Just means maybe there's not alignment. And that's where the friction is.

I'm curious about you. What do you see is the biggest thing your mom needs to emotionally work on personally? Or is there some area of growth that she's been resisting? You know, we're talking about this other guy, but you know your mom probably better than everyone. You guys are best friends. What's the thing that holds her back from her inner freedom and expressing her full, truest self and feeling the love that she wants to feel

with this guy or without this guy? I'm glad you asked that. I think, I think simply put, I think it's fear. I think, I don't know, it, for a while it was, it was me and my mom, you know, and she's been single most of my life. And I've seen her in a few relationships. I didn't like any of the other boyfriends except for this one when it comes to overall their character. But I think she's afraid of letting herself be fully loved by someone else because I think she's been burned pretty bad in the past and hurt. And I hate saying that because I just want her to be happy. I think my mom has lived her life solely for me and my two younger sisters. And now that we're grown, I'm in my 30s. The other two are just starting in their upper teens, 20s. And it's time for us to kind of build our own life.

And we want to be friends with her still. And, you know, like we love her and want to spend time with her. But I want to see her live her life for herself. And I'm not really sure what that looks like if she ends things with him. And again, I don't think he has to be her whole life. I think I've come to that realization and it sounds like you guys agree that he probably isn't the right one. I just want her to be able to start living fully for herself. I don't know if that answers the question, but I think she's afraid of letting other people in. So she just focuses on herself and kind of turning inward to herself or to

me and my sisters and doesn't really branch out to build, to build a life outside of that. So, but like, I'm wondering, because like the time where you, before this guy showed up, you were single for a long period of time, right? And your three daughters, you, you know, were in, you were in probably what your early to mid twenties and the other ones were teenagers. And my guess is it was pretty easy for you. You know, I have 10 siblings. So it was probably pretty easy for you to just immerse your whole life into your kids you know and yeah probably made you an amazing mom and it was easy to do that not but now as they've gotten older I got someone I want to say what I'm wondering is what if you just decided hey you know what I'm gonna make the tough decision and as much as I care

about him and love him I just don't think he's the right one for me. And you have to, you immerse yourself into the single life again, and you're dating. What if this could be the first time in a very long time where you are single for yourself and you have these friends and you have, you know, guys and girlfriends, you want to travel. And what if you just embrace, I'm going to be single for me and I'm really, it's going to be scary. There'll be good days and bad days. I'll have good dates and bad dates and they'll have moments of loneliness. I'm even going to miss him probably a lot. But what if you are just selfish for, you know, in a way that, you know, you're really, you're not always worrying about what your daughters are doing and when they need you,

you kind of have an evolved relationship now that they have their families. And you go out and you, if you want to travel, you go travel. If you take, you know, you do things for you and you have some fun and you get out there and you really, you know, take advantage of the fact that you are still a very relatively young person, you know, in the grand scheme of things. And instead of thinking about yourself as like, oh, now I'm going to be, I don't know, a grandma or my daughters are all younger, but I'm only 54, you know, change that narrative in your head and get out there. And because, yeah, you were single, but you were single, but you never really gave your chance to find love.

And maybe it's instead of the couple's therapy, maybe, I don't know, are you an individual therapy? Yeah, I don't know, are you an individual therapy? Yeah, I therapize myself a lot. Well, that can be good or bad, but maybe you jump into some individual therapy as well as you immerse yourself in this new kind of chapter of your life. And that person can help you hold yourself accountable with certain maybe self-limiting beliefs that you might have of yourself and help you work through fears that you have as you get out there. It could be an exciting new chapter, but it sounds like you're making a lot of your decisions based off of fear, which I kind of hate for you.

Yeah, fear. And also, I almost feel indulgent or selfish, the fact that I'm throwing away a very wonderful man. And so many people are looking for greatness. And I actually have a great guy. And I'm like, eh, I don't know if it's right for me. I mean, unless you're not being honest with us, which I think you are. I'm sure he's swell. He's a great guy, but he moved

out. Yeah. I like the word swell. He's a great guy, but he moved out, right? He's nice to you, but he's intermittent. It sounds like it's not a consistency or it's conditional. Yeah. Unless you've agreed on the conditions, it doesn't sound like you guys have, there's going to be friction and a great guy and a great partner are two different things. And maybe he's a great guy, but he's not a great partner to you. Yeah. And maybe he's a great guy, but he's not a great partner to you. Yeah. And he's not the great guy for you. And you don't feel like you can be your truest self around him.

It's, I mean, the fact that he flat out just tells you he doesn't trust you. That's. Is. Big red flag. Huge. I couldn't imagine being in a relationship with someone who's like, I don't trust you. Knowing that there's nothing you really, and then, by the way, well, how can I make you trust me more?

I have no idea. You could just do less. Don't leave the house. Don't go anywhere. Delete social media. Delete social media. Don't see any guys. Come on.

Now, the daughter here, how long have you been married? I've been married for three and a half years. Three and a half years. Three and a half years. So mom, if your daughter's husband said, I don't trust you, how would that make you feel for her? Do you feel like she'd be able to be her truest self? You feel like she would be emotionally safe in a marriage if the husband says, I do not trust you? No.

Yeah. I would actually be devastated if she came to me and said that my son-in-law told her he didn't trust her and it would be counter intuitive to who she is. It would just be, it would be horrible. Yeah. So how does that make you feel when your mom, you know, the guy doesn't trust your mom? Honestly, I'm, that was kind of, I don't think that's something we've talked about. I didn't know that he, so I'm kind of getting this information real time with you guys as well. I didn't know that he ever flat out said that to her. And

it makes me angry because I think, um, like I said, he's the only one I cared about of her past significant others, obviously, aside from my dad, who I love. But her new relationships, I felt a bond with him. I felt so comfortable with him. And I really opened my heart open to him and the possibility of having a new male figure in my life. He was at my wedding um and i was so grateful for him so to hear that it really hurts it makes me really upset and and kind of protective of her because she's been cheated on in the past and and i've watched that and the devastation that it caused um by multiple significant others and that's just it's the furthest thing from her personality so to hear that that that lack of trust is there is yeah i mean my mind is even more made up not that it's my decision but the fact and you know you've been hurt in the past too and like think about that you've been cheated on and yet you're still willing to give him your trust you know and he's not reciprocating that and i just i think you deserve a lot more than you

give yourself credit for. And I think you have allowed, you know, and I understand why I've been there. You know, I think you've allowed the actions of your past partners in your past pain to kind of subconsciously tell yourself that I don't deserve more than this guy. He's good enough. He won't cheat on me. He's generally pretty nice to me. And I shouldn't be able to ask for more. And you can. And it's kind of just a choice that you have to decide, you know, and you needed to believe that you do deserve more. And, you know, we have a lot to offer. And it might require some patience, you know.

And it might require some bad dates and some creepy guys and some frustrations. And some lonely nights. And some, yeah. But I don't think, I think you're discounting just how much work you had to put into obviously being a mom and being single. And like, is it really going to be any, you know, I just think you have a very gloomy opinion on what life would be like for you if you said goodbye to this guy and and i know the unknown can be very scary um but it also can be really exciting you know and

a lot of it comes down to how you approach it and i think if you are willing to tell yourself over and over with maybe the help of your daughters which i'm sure they already do that i deserve to be treated differently. I deserve to be trusted. I deserve to have someone, you know, by my side who really lets me be my truest self, not with conditions. As long as I'm being a good partner, I deserve that. And I'm willing to find it. You might feel a little bit better about, you know, being single and giving yourself another chance at finding someone who's little bit better about, you know, being single and giving yourself another chance at finding someone who's a, just a better fit for you. And who knows what's, you know,

who knows what he would be saying if we were having this conversation with him or about, you know, maybe she's not showing up fully or who knows, but we're assuming you're showing up. I'm not, you don't show up anymore. Oh, gotcha. You're more disconnected now. I am. I'm very disconnected. So that would be accurate. That would be an accurate assessment if he gave that. So he's probably like, you're pulling away, you're not connected. So why should I trust you? Right? So there's probably confusion on both your sides. I'm curious, mom, on a scale of one to 10, if you could do a self-assessment of self-love, where are you on this scale of self-love for yourself 10 being you have full harmony and full

self-love you respect yourself with every decision you make you fully love you just you feel like you deserve love of yourself and others one being you have you know no self-love essentially where are you honestly on that scale and then daughter i'd love to hear afterwards your thoughts on what the scale is for her. You think what number that is? I think it probably 9.5 of self-love. I think so that you love and respect yourself fully that you give yourself the love you deserve. Yeah.

I think that that wasn't, um, that didn't just come automatically. I think that that took years and years of work. And I think me being single for 10 years was by choice. Yeah. Because I felt that I was I had a bad picker. And so I decided that I needed time to work on me. And I got to a point where I have love being alone. I actually enjoy my company. Um, I have no problem going to dinner by myself, traveling alone. This doesn't bother me because I meet, I meet a friend everywhere I go. I don't have a problem with this. So I think it's good. I don't want to confuse it with competence. Um, because, because I think my confidence is very, very high. But I believe that I've really worked on self-love. Where do you think your mom's at on that scale? What number would you give her based on your opinion?

Well, it's funny that she said, I don't want to confuse self-love and confidence because that's literally what I was going to say. I think on a confidence level, she's a 9.5, 10. And I look up to her for that because I don't have a lot of confidence. So I try to learn from her. When it comes to self-love, I think outwardly she might look like she has a 9.5. But I think in reality, you're closer to maybe a six. Wow. There you go.

I don't think you honor and nurture yourself the way that you deserve to. I think you, um, I think you're a lot harder on yourself internally. I'm the same way. Yeah. Um, I, I think you carry a lot of it internally. So I think from an outward perspective, you give a lot of self-love, but I think you could explore a little bit more. Yeah. And I think she loves herself individually. I'm curious to see what that would look like for you, like loving yourself in a way that you

don't have to end up with someone. I just want you to be happy. But I want you to be open to that possibility. And I wonder, I feel like when we're talking about this relationship potentially ending, you know, Nick makes comments about going back to dating and you kind of roll your eyes or say, no, that's not going to happen. I mean, you guys can tell it's the last thing she wants to get back into. So I'm just wondering how she can kind of build up self-love to be open to that idea one day. And it doesn't have to be immediately if she needs that time for herself. If it's never, I'll respect that too. I just, I want you to have that happiness and love from someone other than your daughters.

Because we love you a lot, but I think you deserve it from someone else, from a partner in life. Yeah. I guess I have a little bit of, um, definitely fear, but, um, also do I need this? Is it, is it, is it worth the trouble kind of attitude? I think. Yeah. Well, that's good that you can admit that. And I mean, you'll have to decide for yourself, but, um, yeah, I think it's worth it. Again, you're only 54 years old, but I think it's worth it for you to go out there and be willing to put yourself in some, you know, vulnerable, but hopefully safe situations and risk some disappointment and some frustrations for the hopes that, let's say it takes you five years, you know, you end this relationship. In five years, you're generally single. Maybe you date, maybe you're not dating for a while.

You focus on your daughters and at 59 years old, you meet a wonderful man. And for the next 20 years you have, you feel loved and you travel and you're trusted and you trust him. Wow. That sounds fucking great to me. You know, um, sounds ideal. Yeah. But it's, it's going to require some bravery know? Sounds ideal. Yeah. But it's going to require some bravery on your part and some patience.

And I think, and it just starts with, don't worry about dating. Don't worry about the future. I think focus right now, you have to ask yourself and you, and you said it, I don't think this is guy, I'm going to marry this guy. And you have to separate between him, the guy, you know, Oh, he's a great guy. He's a great guy. He's a great guy. No one's questioning that. We're not questioning that.

You're not questioning that. You know, he has this place in society as a good person, but he's not a great partner to you. And he is, you know, and you have to make a lot of compromises on his behalf for his emotional shortcomings that he isn't willing to work on. And he's expecting you to just deal with it. And that's just not fair to you. And as a part, you know, and I don't, how is that better than being single? Well,

how is that better than dating? You know, especially since you kind of already know your answer and you have kind of guilted yourself into, well, I don't think I should break up with him because he's a good guy and I have dated bad guys before so i don't think i it's okay for me to end this relationship maybe he's a swell guy and maybe like you have acknowledged you had a bad picker in the past but don't let good you know stop you from having maybe great absolutely you know and just curious the dynamics are is he stay over a couple nights a week do you go to his place sometimes like do you guys not see each other anymore like where are you at right now he'll stay over at my house as much as he possibly can um i've never been to his new place got it so he still comes over like what three four times a week

yeah and how does it feel when he comes over do you guys have good nights still or do you just feel like no no i'm i'm tense uh, you don't want to feel tense in a relationship. No, no, I'm tense and uncomfortable. I, I really enjoy my space. You keep saying that, but I want you to practice what you preach, you know, coming over then. Yeah. So for me, for me for me mom that doesn't sound like a lot of self-love if you allow a man to come to your house three four times a week to stay the night and you feel tight you feel closed off you feel clenched you feel restricted you feel uneasy for me that sounds like you're not loving yourself and the little girl inside of you that wants to feel safe emotionally.

You're allowing things to happen that make the inner girl in you uneasy, tense. That's not feminine flow. That's not feeling relaxed like you can dance in your lingerie in the middle of your living room. You're probably feeling closed off, sweatpants, baggy, like you're wanting to protect and guard the little you that is afraid of being hurt or harmed in some way again. That's just what I'm picking up based on what I'm hearing. Again, we don't have the whole story, but if he's coming over three, four nights a week and you're feeling

tense and you want him to leave, the little girl in you is saying, mom, like when are you going to take care of me? When are you going to take care of the little one in me that is craving safety emotionally, psychologically, that's craving love from yourself? And I think when you can be there for the little girl inside of you, and maybe this is a little too deep right now, but when you can be there for the little girl inside of you, maybe this is a little too deep right now, but when you can be there for the little girl in you, the way you've been there for your daughters, the way you've shown up for your daughter,

because I see you have a great relationship, but if you can be there for the little girl in you who is craving intimacy from you, craving respect and boundaries from you, from you, craving respect and boundaries from you, craving to feel seen and safe by making tough decisions, by creating a safe playground in your own home. Your home is not safe because you feel tense in your space. Yeah. And that's where I was asking you about the self-love question.

And, you know, I'm hearing from your daughter, it might be a disconnect from where you're at there and it's just something to pay attention to the next therapy session you go to to really start diving into that I think because the little girl in you is not getting what she deserves from what I'm hearing and the more you stand up and be a stand for her and comfort her as opposed to comforting a man that doesn't trust you, the more in alignment you will live in life, the better you'll feel. Yeah, I like that. I don't know if that resonates in any way or maybe it just was disconnected for you, but.

No, no, it resonates a lot. It does. Yeah. And I'll just say one thing before we have to go but obviously very difficult to be a parent even more difficult to be a single parent and i'm sure you've it sounds like you've been an amazing parent and at times as a parent you've had to make a shit ton of sacrifices for your kids and that's admirable but i do say think sometimes that parents, especially as their kids grow up, and you're so used to kind of being that martyr and sacrificing your own happiness for the

sake of your kids. And I think it's not that difficult for you to do. You're almost comfortable with making that sacrifice. But kind of everything that Lewis has pointed out, like your kids are grown up now and you've done such a great job and they have their lives. And because you've done a good job, it sounds like they have a lot of happiness. But now you need to start taking care of yourself again. Amen. And you have to stop making kind of the excuses of like, well, I'm just going to be a parent and it's okay because I'm doing it all for my kids. And you're unnecessarily martyring your own happiness.

And it is a little scary just to acknowledge that and decide it's going to be your time to focus on your happiness and take care of that, you know, inner child that Lewis is talking so much about, which there's a lot of truth to that. And it can be scary, but I think you got to stop almost using your kids as an excuse for why you don't deserve your own happiness because you do. And clearly your daughter and your other daughters, I'm assuming, want you to find someone. And the only way to do that is to bet on yourself and keep reminding yourself that you deserve a great relationship and you don't have to settle and you don't have to just find a good guy who's a bad partner,

you know, just because you've also dated bad guys who are bad partners who have done worse than him. And, you know, I know we got to probably wrap it up in a second, but, you know, the more I'm thinking about this, he's saying he doesn't trust you because you don't trust you in some ways. Like you're not trusting your own body. You feel tense when he comes over, knowing he's coming over. Unless I'm completely off and I'm misreading this.

You said you feel tense every time he comes over. You're not trusting yourself to create a boundary. So how could he trust you if you don't trust yourself in that respect? Maybe it's unconscious. You know, who knows? And I'm not saying it's justified that he shouldn't be trusting you, but it doesn't look like you trust you yet. And when you start taking actions daily to create healthy relationship with self, it's going to become clear whether he's the right

guy or not in the future or, or what you should be taking action on quickly after you start taking action on how to trust yourself better. No, you're actually making a great point. Yesterday, I had a little epiphany. And I thought, you know, because I believe that the body does tell us things. You know, it gives us warnings. Yep. Through sickness and whatnot. And I thought about that and I thought, you know, my body is screaming,

but this is not right. And I, my, my brain is not listening. It's justifying. He's a good guy. He looks good on paper. He's been nice to me. He's good to my kids. Look what he showed up at the wedding. He's kind. He does all these things that are nice but your body's rejecting it yeah my body's rejecting it and i like i said yesterday i kind of had an epiphany that i really should start listening to my body wow there you go when you when you sign up to get on nick's show, you know, things start to fall into alignment. Things start to roll.

You started to take an action of like, hey, I want to get some clarity. And you're already your body's adjusting to it. So everyone needs to sign up to get on this show. That's what I'm going to tell everybody. There you go. Well, hopefully this was helpful. We do have to go. But just one thing. If you decide to, you you know take this risk and leave

this relationship you know don't don't add unnecessary pressure on yourself if dating sounds scary to you just set that aside for now you'll figure it out like you've said multiple times in this call you're very comfortable being alone you're very comfortable being single invest in some friends maybe take a trip with the girls, you know, or platonic guy friend, whatever, just have like, go have some fun for the next six months. Do what, what all, what, what are you, what are, what are things that you have over the past 20 years that you wanted to do, but couldn't do because part of the time you just had to be a mom, you had to be there for your daughters. You are an adult woman who kind of can do whatever the fuck she wants.

You know, you can, you can you can you know you have probably a little bit you seem to be well off enough that you could splurge on a trip here there you know truly you can do whatever you want go do it have some fun and then reassess come back and if dip your toes in the dating pool see how it feels if it's too cold you know take another break but eventually you're gonna have to push your comfort zones, get out there and try it again. But you're much younger than you give yourself credit for. Um, you have a lot going on for you and maybe this guy served its purpose and it was a nice

little relationship and there was a lot of good memories. You can still cherish that. You can still hold onto that, but it's you've outgrown him he doesn't want to grow himself and by the way when you when you end it he's going to do the same thing over again he's going to be willing to do all these things that he's not willing to do yeah but you know what that looks like so you're going to have to show some you know some discipline and strength and and unless he's actually fully wants to commit to the agreements that you guys make together and your your own alignment but that's gonna take coaching or therapy or something and on his own yeah on his

own and that's rare when someone fully makes that change you know typically you guys just weren't the right alignment from the start you know and you maybe just didn't have all these conversations or he said the right things but it's not truly who he was so you know if he's willing to go all in on therapy together and you feel like you can you know not feel tense every time he comes over then okay maybe worth exploring but it doesn't sound like you're gonna feel good either way yeah i feel like he's got a lot of healing on his own to do that has nothing to do with you yeah and unless he's willing to do that on his own regardless if you're in his life or not it just

seems like you've given him multiple chances to do that and he's unwilling to do that and i think you just have a better chance of betting on the field rather than him. Yeah. All right. I appreciate, I appreciate that advice very much. Well,

thank you for calling in. Uh, we would still, we'll very much love an update, you know, how things are going for you, what, what decision you ended up making.

And I hope, you know, whatever it is, I would love, whatever the decision is, we'd love an update, but you know, maybe, you know, lots of people listen to this show.

I'd love for you to be an example for other people, men or women, at this stage of life that have the same fears and insecurities that you're demonstrating and give those people a reason to, like, hope and be brave. Because, again, what you're doing is scary. And I understand why you have a lot of reluctance but it's most things in life are you know i've i've made this joke on the show like you know i thought moving to chicago when i lived in milwaukee was a huge deal and then like i finally i finally did it it took an afternoon you know i was like an hour and a half drive i was like oh okay but we we play these things up

in our head and we psych ourselves out and and we make up all these reasons why now is not a good time to do this but it it's easier than I think you've realized um it will have its challenges but I think being a single mom and raising the your the way you did was a lot harder than what you are about to embark on. So give yourself some more credit than I think you give yourself right now. Thank you. All right. Appreciate it. And I will give you an update.

Well, I'll hold you to it. I'll send photos as well. All right. Can't wait. All right. Happy holidays. Thanks for coming in. All right.

Take care. Happy holidays. And congrats to you, Natalie. Thank you very much. Bye. Bye-bye. can't wait all right happy holidays thanks for coming in all right happy holidays and congrats to you natalie thank you very much bye bye bye helix sleep god just brightens my day every time i get to talk about the majesty and majestic comfort that is a helix mattress it's truly incredible i honestly i think if you're sleeping on anything on a helix no offense you're a little bit of a dum-dum how How much time of our lives do we spend sleeping? A lot.

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There you go. Millions of stories have already been told with StoryWorth, just like my dad's, because they make the process so simple. Get started with your loved one for the holidays. And before you know it, you'll both be cherishing those timeless stories for generations to come. Help your family share their stories this holiday season with StoryWorth. Go to StoryWorth.com slash V-I-A-L-L today and save $10 off your first purchase. That's S-T-O-R-Y-W-O-R-T-H dot com slash V-I-A-L-L to save $10 off your first purchase. That's StoryWorth.com slash V-I-A-L-L. How's it going? Hi, I'm Randy. I'm 35 years old. How can we help, Randy? Yeah. So I'm having a hard time moving on from an ex who cheated on me okay all right well tell us more tell us more about

that story um i used to live in the midwest and i recently moved to the west coast maybe four or five years ago okay and when i moved out here i didn't really have any friends i actually didn't know anybody at all but i met a roommate and we lived together. And since I didn't have any friends, I basically hung out with his friends. And there was a particular girl in the group that I was interested in, but I didn't really do too much about it. Eventually, my roommate and my ex, well, her in this case, she's 28 years old. They dated for about two years. And whenever they dated, you know, we hung out still, but I didn't really do too much of it, obviously, because I didn't want to cause any commotion between the living situation and, you know, her or like, you know, intervening. So they dated for about two years. And randomly, whenever she broke up, she reached out to me to hang out.

I didn't know that she broke up, but she told me that she broke up. But were you still living? Were you still living with your roommate? Yes, I'm still living with the guy. And whenever we were hanging out and stuff like that, I don't think my ex-roommate, her ex, knew that we were hanging out. But again, I didn't really think much of it because like I said, at this point, I've already moved on with my life and just became just friends with her. So wait, hold. So I want to make sure I'm understanding it. You moved to the West Coast and you got a roommate, guy roommate. Yeah. Yes.

And that roommate who you lived with started dating a woman. In the friend group. Yeah. In the friend group. They dated for a couple of years. Yes. They broke up. And then at some point, this woman reached out to you.

Yeah. I mean, like I said, we're in the friend group. So she basically just reached out to me and be like, Oh, Hey, you know, I haven't talked to you in a while. You know,

how's it going? Um, I'm having a birthday coming up. Do you want to basically just started hanging out as friends? You're still living with the guy that she was dating. Correct. And he didn't, he didn't tell you like,

or you didn't know that they broke up. I mean, I wouldn't really consider us friends. I mean, sure. We like live together and we like party together and stuff like that, but I don't really have an intimate relationship with the guy. So you're roommates, just roommates at the purest form.

Wow. Okay. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I just randomly met the guy. I don't know him previously or anything. Okay. All right. So they broke up.

And then how much time had passed until she reached out to you? Probably like three or four months. Okay. But again, you know, at this whole time, I thought they were still together because I didn't know until she reached out to me. Did she not come over ever? In the beginning, she came over a lot. But then like the past year, I just noticed that she hasn't come over very often.

But again, it's kind of like, I didn't really care because it wasn't my issue. Fair enough. But unless we just parted together in a group, that's it. So she reached out to you and she's like, hey, you know, haven't seen you in a while. Let's get together. Yeah. And then you.

We went to go eat and just talk a very long time and all this stuff. It was pretty, pretty nice, actually. Okay. And then what happened? Yeah. Keep going. Yeah. So we hung out a bunch of times and actually coincidentally,

like I, since I've been a big fan of you, I went ahead and bought her your book, you know, so I gave her the book and she was really appreciative of that. Don't text my roommate currently while you're hanging out with me. What, what prompted you to, I mean, thanks for the plug, but what, what, like just out of curiosity, it is a dating and relationship book for people who are struggling in, in dating and relationships. Were you guys dating at this point when you got to this?

No, you weren't. We were just friends and just hanging out a lot. And I, I mean, I was starting to like her, but I didn't know how she felt about me. Okay. Fair enough. Um, and then at what point did this turn into a relationship? Yeah. So let me get to that. So me and the roommate, the ex-roommate, we were having issues with the house. Basically, there was some housing issue where he wasn't fixing the issue.

So essentially, I decided I had to move out. And so my ex, Jane, she had a one bedroom apartment and she was like, Hey, why don't you move in with me as friends? She, so she has the room and I'll have the living room and this will help because she wasn't working at times. Basically what her plan was, she was going to do like a three month, like extensive coding bootcamp that is like $20,000. So she took a year off and that was going to start in March. So, and like I said, she wasn't working. So me for me to move in with her, essentially I'm helping her with half the rent because the money issue. And then she would be giving me like time to like,

I guess transition to me looking for a new spot. So I was like, okay, that sounds like a good idea. Once we moved in, a couple of days later, we got to talking and then we found out we started to like each other, you know, more romantically, which at this point, there's no turning back now. So I'm curious if you could reflect back, you know, I don't think you just magically found out and I don't, you can't read her mind and you don't know where she was at but i'm assuming you might have had at least a crush on her or something like i personally liked her but i didn't know how she felt about me gotcha and so i'm curious when you

decided to move in with her knowing that you kind of had a crush on her like what were what were your thoughts around were you hoping something would happen yeah so i might sound crazy but i feel like once we determine what the living situation once i moved out then i was going to tell her that i was into her not while i was still living with her oh you're gonna wait till you moved out from her or whatever my idea because you thought this was a temporary living yes temporary it's just a transition while i had issues with my previous got it ex-roommate gotcha okay okay interesting move and you were living with her ex well i'm living with he was he was living with her ex and then moved in with her she brought up a temporary living solution no no i was living with an ex-roommate it was a guy yeah. Yeah, her ex. Yeah, her ex. Yeah. And then she was like, hey, you had some drama with her ex.

That ran its course. You needed a new place to live. She was like, hey, you can come here for a little bit. Crash with me for a little bit because you're going to help me with some rent and I need to do this coding program. And how long have they not been together now since you moved in with her? I think they broke up in like July and I moved in December. So maybe like five or six months. Okay. Got it.

And, and you knew you kind of had a crush on her, but you're thinking, all right, well, let's just see how this goes, but I will keep my little crush a secret until I move out. Of her place.

Of her place. Yeah. Correct. Okay. All right. And then what happened? Like I said said i didn't know how she felt i mean so um i mean honestly it went pretty well i mean we shared a bathroom together and we and we didn't really i mean we just hung out whenever we can like i was still working from home like at the place and she's still studying so like at night time we'll maybe have dinner together something like that and just chat and go from there but honestly it went pretty well even though we knew we liked each other um so her lease was going to end in march and

we needed to find a new space or a new place so we decided her friend had a house in the area that we lived in and she was basically gonna have to move out and like rent out the house so wouldn't this go from a temporary living situation and to we need to find a new place together well at this point we knew that we liked each other already how did that happen when did that like when did you guys who made the first move like was there like a little awkward moment in the bathroom that you guys share? How did that escalate? Yeah, I just remember a couple of days after we moved in with each other, we just got to

talking and somehow it just came up. Pretty quickly, the first week. Yeah, it went pretty quickly. But again, at this point, I felt like we've been hanging out a lot of times already. But again, I don't think she knew mine, how I felt about her. And then I didn't know how she felt about me. But pretty quickly you guys found out. And then did you guys start, did you guys start hooking up or what was?

Probably like a month into it. Okay. All right. And did you have any conversations about any boundaries or rules? Hey, you know, was there anything like, wow, we just realized we like each other, but we moved in as roommates now we're a bit of a couple how should we what's the best way to handle this or did you guys just kind of play house yeah i'm pretty sure i would just go with we played house um all right

this is i mean i haven't i don't have a lot of relationship experience so i mean i learned a lot from this one you moved from the living room couch into the bedroom then? No, no, no. I was still living in the living room. Interesting. As you guys were now a couple dating, you know, intimate. When we were, well, no, we hadn't became like quote unquote official yet, but we just knew we liked each other, but we still never, we, I mean, we'll like hang out in each other's room and stuff like that. And like maybe just sleep over, but not like have sex, but right. When did, did you ever have sex?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. When did that happen? Uh, like I said, like about a month into it. Okay. So I guess that's what we're, yeah. Were you living, were you staying in the same bed then after that point? Like every night? No. Okay. We would still go to our separate rooms unless we're having sex i guess your room being the living room yeah correct okay interesting oh okay all right what happened after that yeah so um we had to move out in march so her friend offered a house a two-story house like a two-bedroom two-bath house um so we decided, you know what, we'll just go ahead and move, sign a one-year lease into it. And so it'll take us until March of coming up this March. And so she started her bootcamp school in March and it runs three months straight. And it's very intensive. It's like from 9am to like 9pm, five days a week. And then also

on Saturday from like 9 to like 4 p.m so she's a very busy but you know i'm working full-time too but my schedule is from like noon to 8 p.m and so we get off kind of at the same time most of the days so that's kind of how we hang out but yeah that's kind of where we're at at that moment um but yeah we signed a one-year lease and like i said it went pretty well there's two rooms at the house so we didn't sleep together in the same room very often maybe like once a week but she had her own room she did her own thing and i did my own thing in my own you guys ever have like a defining the relationship moment where you were actually boyfriend and girlfriend yes so. So that was middle of February.

At the new place? So I was thinking like for us to be official once she's done with the school so that she can focus on the school. Why delay? And she was more in the idea of it doesn't really matter when we became official. So we kind of met in the middle. So February is when we became official. So you were waiting for her to finish a program for you to then be in a relationship.

Yeah, because I wanted her to focus on school and she's going to spend $20,000 on school. And that's, I mean. Well, what does that have to do with you getting clarity in terms of where you stand with her? I guess it really doesn't. But I just felt like for me, just I wanted her to not have to like worry about,

I guess my needs. If she's still schooling should be like but she wanted to be with you though it sounds like she was like hey yeah and you said that's why kind of how why we met in the middle of the time frame okay so so we became official in middle of february um this is when we lived at the only house i mean you seem like a swell guy and very thoughtful and it sounds like your intentions were to be a really good partner but the way you say

it is you felt like your needs would be would inhibit her from going to school or just having peace of mind or you know you thought your needs would add stress to her life correct how old are you again okay or how old were you then uh 35 yeah well you're being thoughtful

but but you know you can have someone people are going dating or married and they're you know they're going to doctor school or you know they're they have no time to see each other but they still can make it work yeah and I guess that's just more, more important. Like, and there's, there's being a good partner and then there's, well, I'm not trying to describe it,

but like you're doing more than was required of you as a partner. And if nothing else, like it, it's like when, when I'm hearing you, I don't know if you hear, hear it, how I'm hearing it,

you know, because any healthy relationship you know relationships take work and they're they require sacrifice sure but they also bring you a lot of happiness and joy and joy and and and you become the person that alleviates stress and you're the person that despite all the things going in your life that you're the you're the thing that brings up that peace and that contentment and and comfort and and yet you were so afraid of you know of disrupting her her world that you set your own like your needs were inconvenience to her needs so you thought i just felt like since we already lived together i mean there's no need for me it's

not like i was going to like look elsewhere during the time that she was going to finish the school thing. I just felt like I just didn't want to add any more weight to her already very heavy bag of stuff that she needs to get taken care of, especially the school. I hear you, but you keep saying that, but like weight of what? Like to love. Yeah. To like, to say, Hey, I care about you. I want to be with you, Randy. You know, you're, you make me feel good. I really see a future with you, you know, and you wanted to be with her, but you were just trying to say, well, let me do the right thing and let you focus until you're done. Yeah. That was my mindset. My question, I'm

curious, like we've talked a lot about, a lot about listening to your body with other colors and things like that. There was something that was telling you that you couldn't like rock the boat, so to speak, at the risk of upsetting her. I mean, I guess, I mean, we live together, so I didn't want to like cause a big commotion because, I mean, it's going to be hard for me to like find a new place or whatever. Let's say she didn't accept the, there you go. You know, waiting until after she was done with school. So,

yeah, I guess that's what I'm getting at. It wasn't, it wasn't just like, Hey, you know, it's not a big deal. You clearly had some fears about if you were to present to her how you truly felt and what you wanted from this relationship and the expectations

that you have as half of this relationship you were afraid that she wouldn't give you the answer that you wanted and you might cross a certain threshold of convenience for her and and that answer not only would be hurtful but like might require you to move out because, you know. So you want to wait till you moved into the new place. Well, I mean, we became official before we moved into the new place. But but it was like a meeting in the middle, you said. Yeah. Yeah. So we kind of met in the middle. Like like I said, it sounded like she kind of she wanted to have it just official, like within a week we talked about it or whatever.

But I was more in the mindset of let's just wait till you're done with school. We'll still do the relationship like dating wise and still live together. But how many committed relationships had you been in before this? Like fully committed? Yeah. Not very many. I can't even tell you.

Maybe one, maybe. Yeah. One. Got it. Okay. And let's fast forward to when things got a little rocky and she cheated on you i mean personally i felt like the relationship went pretty well even though we

lived together but there were some i guess disagreements which happened you know when you live with somebody which is pretty normal in my opinion but there were things that i felt that she did kind of made me mad and then i guess whenever she made me mad the way i i guess communicated to her in hindsight wasn't very often or nice i mean i never like yelled at her like cussed her out or like been abusive or like anything like that but i was just kind of like stern in what she did and then kind of like how i represented for example, sometimes whenever she leaves the house, she'll forget to like close the garage. Okay. And this happened three times.

You know, I have a lot of like valuable things in the garage, like car parts, because I'm, you know, a car guy, whatever. And also I'm working from home too. So, you know, if somebody comes in the house and, you know, you know what can happen. Obviously, I've already been burglarized twice in my life. So I guess maybe that's kind of where my paranoia comes from.

Like I've already had everything. You don't have to justify wanting to, you know, keep your things safe. But she forgot. And then how did you handle it? So I, you know, basically told her, hey, you know, in a stern voice, of course. Again, I wasn't like yelling or like cussing around, but I was very stern in like how i presented like hey you know pretty dangerous whenever you leave the house and you know makes me feel like unsafe and stuff like that and i think she just kind of took it the wrong way um another incident that happened was there was a time where

she went out to hang out with her friends like for brunch whatever like at noon and i already knew the night before that she was going to go. Cause whenever I woke up, she was already out of the house. So whenever she came, you know, she was been gone for like five or six hours. So I gave her a call and I'm like, Hey, Jane, you know, is everything okay? When you come home? And she's like, she says she's going to be home around six 30. Well, six 30 comes around and I didn't hear from her until 7.45. That's when she came home. So there was no, oh, I'm going to be late. Or, you know, we decided to talk a little bit longer. Of course, in hindsight, I guess I could have reached out, you know, maybe 30 minutes into it and be like, hey, you know, where are you at? But I didn't because I just felt like, you know, if she said she's going to do something that she should keep her promise

at least that's where i was coming from okay um so whenever she came home that day again never yelled at her never cussed at her anything like that never you know through anything but i was very stern and like hey you know you said that you're going to come home at 6 30 and you came home an hour and 15 minutes late. You know, you know, I was worried. And essentially one thing that I said to her, I basically told her that she lied to me, which probably not a nice way to put it. But I guess in my mind at that point, when I was heated, that's kind of how it came off. I think in hindsight now, I should have just been like, hey, you hey you know at at the moment you know i'm not very happy with you can we just talk about this later when in that hour and a half that was going on like what was going through your head did you

think she was doing some shit you know where you know clearly when you said you lied to me well that was coming from a place of, it was coming from somewhere. We've all been like, hey, babe, I'm going to be home at 6.30. And then all of a sudden I show up at 7.15 because I don't know. I got caught in a couple conversations. Like in an hour and a half is not that long of a time. Don't get me wrong. I hate it when people are late and don't let me know.

But that's a leap to say hey you lied to me but that was coming from a place of you know you must have felt like she was being dishonest with you was my guess um after we broken up that's i mean in the beginning i trusted her completely like i didn't think she was doing anything crazy but yeah after we broke up and now that i've looked back to all the past stuff you know i was concerned um but yeah like i said in the beginning i just felt like everything was good and i didn't have any reason to not trust how did when did you find out she cheated on you and how did you find out uh after we after the school was over so like june okay but how did you find out so um around two months into her school um i've been noticing that she's obviously very focused on school which is great

um but i just felt like i wasn't getting i guess my needs met and i just felt like i was putting in like 85 of the time to like hang out and like do things for her. Like I would cook and clean, do the dishes, take out the trash, like nine out of 10 times house chores, I would do everything. Cause like I said, I wanted her to focus on school. And, you know, at nighttime I would like to like hang out for, you know, just a cuddle for like 15 minutes or something just to have like, I guess time so to speak um but i just noticed that stuff's been not happening very often and it only would happen if i went to her and asked for her hey you want to cuddle tonight or whatever it's just never her going out of her way to do it so um one of the nights it was like a sunday and i came to her after work and after she was done

with school and i was like hey you know i've been noticing that we haven't spent much time together and basically i was asking her if she can like put more effort into i guess showing me love like go out of her way to like hey do you want to watch a movie tonight or do you want to go out eat tonight it's always me doing it okay and as and during the conversation she basically said that she said that she's been losing connection with me which at this point i'm like i'm so blindsided because i don't understand sure whenever we had arguments we'll we'll like we'll be mad at each other for a day but then we eventually you know meet up and like have like a heart-to-heart conversation about like kind of what happened still how did you find out she cheated on you yeah so obviously we were fast

forward to that moment um she's i asked her if she was seeing somebody else or talking to somebody else during the time that she told me she was losing connection and she said that she was talking to somebody that was in her online boot camp that lives on the East Coast. OK. And I'm like, you did tell him that you have a boyfriend. Right. And she said, yeah. But so I just felt like she was, I guess, emotionally cheating or maybe she was going to him complaining about me. And obviously the guy. He's a guy, you know, he's going to like sure butter her up and be like yeah stay away from ricky or stay away from randy he's a bad guy you know you know how you assume this yeah huh you assume this that was yeah i'm assuming this well until more information so essentially that night

i guess we broke up because i still wanted to work on it who broke up with who i don't know about i don't know how to answer that because i guess i came to her well you but she broke up with me but i so you you confronted her you you said hey listen my needs aren't being met event uh essentially right she responded with well now that you're bringing this to my attention i've i've been feeling disconnected to you i've been feeling distant from you you said well well now that you mentioned that, or have you been talking to anyone? She kind of admitted like, yeah, I've been kind of like chatting with this guy. And, and then she just long story short after words were exchanged, she was like, you know what?

I think we should break up. Yeah. Basically I told her that I'm still willing to work on it. And I guess since she wasn't willing to work on it, I guess she's the one that broke it all. Yeah. Because she's the one that didn't want to continue. Yeah. So she didn't actually physically cheat.

She emotionally cheated. Is that right? Yeah. Because the guy is on the East Coast and we live on the West Coast. As far as you know. Right, right. Well, yeah, yeah.

I guess that's true. One other thing I want to mention is whenever I confronted her, whenever she said that she was losing connection, she said that she was going to talk to me within a month about, I guess, breaking up because that's when she was going to go out of her way to tell me that, which happens to be the end of her schooling. So I just felt like she was going to potentially just use me or milk me for the next month while she was still in school. Because, like I said, I was still doing a lot of the housework. I was paying for a lot of things, buying her things. You were a very convenient boyfriend.

Correct. Yeah. Interesting. So I thought that was a big part of the story. So obviously we broke up and that whole month was very awkward like every time we see each other in the house we didn't really acknowledge each other well i would acknowledge her in the beginning but she would just say hi back and that's it but she would never go out of her way funny thing is um you know how you do your like uh ask nick thing yeah um i actually sent you a

message and then you responded to me and i I, what was the question? I wrote a girlfriend broke up with me, live together, won't acknowledge in house. We'll only say hi. If I initiate, how do I proceed? I can, I can read your response.

You said, I'm sorry, dude. Listen to what I tell you. It's very important. I can't remember this. No matter how hurt you might feel and justified to fight for her or with her, accept her decision. Always take the high road.

Focus on moving out, even if it costs you some money with some inconvenience. Nothing good will come from begging or being bitter in the moment. No matter what happens in the future, you won't regret being the bigger person, being the respectful person. regret being the bigger person, being the respectful person. Even if it doesn't end in reconciliation, let your lasting memory be how well you handled moving on and how respectful you were. High road and long game, two things I prioritize in life. That was a great, that was awesome.

I remember that one. How do you make, how did that make you feel when you got that text, that advice? Oh, it, I think it changed my perspective on so much thing. And obviously it's coming from somebody that I enjoy listening to too. So yeah, once I got that message, it just gave me like a different, I don't know.

It was awesome. That's great. So what did you do though? Did you take the advice? Well, okay, let me get back to one story real quick. So a week after she ended school, I know that she flew to the east coast for about a week snap i just found out and it happens to be the city that she mentioned where

this guy lives so she went to go visit 100 yeah i'm just gonna put two and two together and be like yeah she went to go see this guy east coast guy to 100 yeah yeah yeah i know um oh okay and then so after i got your message you're like the part where you said oh just it's gonna cost you some money it's like whatever so i eventually asked her hey i'm like you know what this is not gonna work out we're we're you just look miserable and i'm you know you know, I'm talking to Jane here. I'm just going to go ahead and offer to pay the whole house myself, pay a hundred percent of all utilities, internet and everything. And I'll just let you go free from this situation.

And we'll just never have to see each other again. Yeah. You're like, you move out. I will just live here. I know we have a lease together, but you're free and clear. You don't have to worry about me paying the rent, but I do need you to leave. Yeah. He basically gave it an option. Obviously she accepted it. A funny thing is whenever I brought this up with the homeowner, which happens to be one of her closest friends. Interesting. The friend is the one that declined that offer. Weird. Weird. Yeah, it's so weird. And the reasoning was because her friend wanted to make sure that she knows where her friend is living, which is so dumb.

But it's not like I'm breaking the lease. I'm just living here by myself. So, I mean, then what happened? Where are we now? So basically that situation didn't go through so we went back to living like normal um until about maybe early september she went ahead and just moved out i mean she kind of told me but she kind of didn't either but she basically just packed everything up like her room is still here it's just right over there and she still has her stuff in there so

she's still paying half the rent correct so she's only paying half of the win-win you live alone and she could have just moved out stopped paying the rent. Correct. So she's only paying half of the- Kind of a win-win. That's good for you. You live alone and- She could have just moved out, stopped paying the rent, and you probably would have ended up paying for it. Well, I guess you could take it to the landlord. That's true, but I actually don't know if she's paying. I asked the homeowner, which is her friend, if my ex has been paying, but she's like, I'm not going to disclose that information.

I'm like, what the hell is wrong? Well, honestly, it's not your problem. As long as you're only paying half, that's right. And that's kind of where I got, cause I have proof that I'm paying my head. That's great. So, but then again,

whenever she moved out, she didn't tell me the day that she was going to move out. So I went ahead and just live like normal. Like we went like a month and a half where I didn't even see her. And so I'm assuming she's gone already. But as far as like the utilities recently, she reached out to me and she's like, Hey, since I'm not going to be living there anymore, basically just telling me to pay the 100% of the whole utilities. I'm like, why?

She's got a storage unit. She should be paying. Yeah, I know. And obviously I could fight back with that and like complain. Like she may not know, but like just because you don't live here doesn't mean like there's no housing cost. Like, for example, like the water heater is going to be on 24 7 just because you don't live here doesn't mean you're not going to pay anything so obviously i could complain that to her and like tell her that but at this point i'm like no it's just like a headache yeah she definitely should but like it's just whatever yeah it's it's energy that you would just have to

right deal with and like when she comes and goes from the house, like when is your lease end? Okay. It's not that far away. She's not living with you yet anymore. And then before, you know, you, you, you,

when you started the call, you said, Hey, you're having a hard time getting over your ex. And even before we actually started talking or recording, you mentioned that, you know, cause I was asking you like,

what, what, why are you calling? What, what's the problem you're trying to solve? And you kind of alluded to what happens if she comes back you said you said something to that effect yeah so I mean in the end I guess I feel like I'm still willing to work it out with her because I still care for her even though I felt like she didn't treat me with you know respect

for like you know so why why are you still willing to work it out? That's just hard. I don't know. Well, that's okay if you can't answer that question, but that's an answer. You know, like listen to yourself, you know, hey, why do I want to do this? Well, I don't know if I can really answer this question. Well, that's telling you, you're telling yourself something. Breakups are hard.

Being cheated on is hard. What you're going through. I mean, I feel for you, you know, I've been in various, I've been in situations similar to what you're going through. Right.

And you know, your, your hope that those people come back and, and, and you hope that she's sorry and regrets her decision. And that's probably not going to happen though. Yeah. And even if it does, honestly, the, I think the worst thing that could's probably not going to happen though. Yeah. And even if it does,

honestly, the, I think the worst thing that could happen is that she does come back. Yeah. Because you have set a precedent with this woman. You will do every chore. Yeah. I will.

I'll let you walk all over me. You can talk to anyone you want. You can disrespect our agreements. Yes. And I'll still be here to take care of things. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead. I was just going gonna say that if she happens to come back we would have to have a very long conversation and

yes i know that i've been i guess a people pleaser and pushover but i feel like if things didn't change which i mean the high chance of it probably not changing I just feel like I just want to have like another chance but I know that if it's reverting back to what me doing like 85 percent yeah another chance would exactly I mean again I hope she never comes back I'm sorry if you don't agree but for your sake I really hope she is is is gone because you're like oh we would have to have a long conversation. Okay. Well, even if that was a four-hour conversation, you would say, well, you can't treat me like this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And she'd be like, you're right. I'm sorry. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's not happening. And then she'd probably be like a kick-ass girlfriend for two months. Okay. And it's in your nature, it sounds like, to be, you know, you're nice and you're accommodating and you have, you know, your motivations. It's like, it sounds like you have a desire to be a good partner and that's great, but she has taken advantage of you.

And what you need to work on, from my point of view, and I'd love to hear what Lewis has to say is, you know, it's one thing to, yeah, you want to be a good partner, but you have a hard time, you know, standing up for yourself and enforcing and setting and enforcing certain boundaries. And you have, you're, you're scared to enforce those boundaries because you're afraid of the answers. Uh, you don't want to inconvenience them. And then you will make up excuses for yourself as to why now is not a good time. And so you will paint this narrative in your head. Well, I don't want to inconvenience her right now. She's got a lot of school. I'm going to be the thoughtful, loving, caring boyfriend. But the truth is you were just too scared, I think, to speak up for yourself and at various times say, hey, I want to date you. Do you want to date me?

Or that's not okay. I'm uncomfortable with this. And you just kept making excuses for your behavior and you sold it to yourself as being the understanding and great boyfriend. But the truth was she was just kind of taking advantage of your generosity and your compassion. Yeah. And when people want to be with you, they choose you fully. They create space in their life. They don't, you know, dump their stuff in your space and take advantage of you and not show up. They, they create space. They create time. They connect with you intimately, emotionally, spiritually, sexually, all these different

things. And so you want someone and everyone watching and listening, we all want someone to choose us. want someone and everyone watching and listening, we all want someone to choose us. But the thing we have to do first in order to find that is to choose ourselves. And it doesn't sound like Nick's talking about that you've fully chosen you with the old way of people pleasing. It seems like you're extremely smart, intelligent, analytical, thoughtful, all these different things. But are you doing that for yourself? And until you learn to choose you and fully love and accept you and keep growing and transforming and overcoming fears and things that are holding you back, it's going to be hard

for someone else to choose you as well. Yeah. I know. Yeah. After the breakup happened, like I've done a lot of research and like you know i'm in therapy too to like learn about that stuff but yeah you're correct i mean i know that i was probably too nice and too overly i didn't set my boundaries correctly um you know i let her walk over me and let her kind of have her way like i just know times there would be times when i would cater my schedule around to hang out with her because it's yeah because she can because you know she happens to be free one time and let's say for example i had plans with another friend i would just cancel it with him and hang out with

her but i know now that that's just not very healthy at all you know and also i'm sorry one other thing that i guess during my research, I found out something about attachment styles and I feel like she had, she's like an avoidant because during the relationship, I don't remember even one time, maybe one time where she apologized for anything that she did. And what's your, and I just feel like it's very hard for her to be vulnerable and things like that, which kind of matches with an avoidant in my opinion.

What's your, what's your attachment style? I am an anxious preoccupied, which I know those two do not go well together but yeah yeah and were you and were you vulnerable with her you're saying she's not vulnerable but i feel like i was super vulnerable like really i show my emotions to her but yeah i've just never seen her cry or anything or i mean she looks sad but like never i mean i believe him and he was vulnerable. Oh yeah. I mean, you know, I, I, I don't know if you see this a lot, but like the, I think attachment style is really interesting and great to understand, you know? Um, but I also find it to be something that people will do.

Like you're in this, like, well, let me understand my ex now, you know, like who gives a shit what her attachment style is. She's not your girlfriend anymore. Right. You know, and you're, but it's like a coping thing that we do. It's like,

Oh, well if I can understand her more than you doing research about her, is you doing more of the same of what you were doing in the relationship? Still catering to her needs. Exactly. You're still like trying to fix this relationship that she's not even in anymore. She's off doing something else.

Yeah. And so, but you got to recognize that, you know, and it's, and we, again, you, we will sell it to ourselves as something else, you know, well, you're just doing research, you're healing, but what you're doing is still trying to be emotionally attached to her. And instead of being her partner and having her by your side, we're like, well, I'll just, you know, use my time to understand her more so that if she does come back, then I can better cater to her emotional needs. And I won't, I'll know when I'm triggering her. I'll know when I'm pushing her.

And you put them, you're putting more of the burden and more of the blame on yourself indirectly. And Nick, do you think if someone has a needy, anxious, people-pleasing energy in a relationship that that relationship can thrive one day no if they're constantly needing if they're putting other all the person's needs in front of them as well and they're needing and they're people pleasing have you ever seen that work out no and it's usually not the other person's you know fault we can look at what did she do wrong and how could she have done you know she did this to me but it's usually not the other person's fault. We can look at what did she do wrong and how could she have done, you know, she did this to me, but it's really what did you allow and not communicate and what is within you

that's making you people please and feel anxious, feel needy, feel I don't want to inconvenience her with her life, with what I want. And so it's really taking a look within yourself. Yeah. This relationship was riddled with red flags from the beginning yeah yeah yeah and i think that's where like me with my boundaries issue um you know like i said i've learned a lot since this has happened but yeah i mean i mean even the fact that like maybe you weren't friends with your old roommate but the fact that she had no problem calling you up and kind of being like, Hey man, what's up? That's a little,

let's hang out. That's weird. That is weird. Yeah. That was a red flag. I should have noticed, um, obviously back now that I looked over everything.

And you know, next time you have a crush on someone who asks you to move in with them, you know, don't move in with them. Yeah. Cause it's, it's a bit decent or communicate first. Yeah.

It's a bit disingenuous. I mean, I know like I'm being hard on you, but like, it's, it's a bit decent or communicate first yeah it's a bit disingenuous i mean i know like i'm being hard on you but like it's it's a it's a bit dishonest to move in with someone who at least from at that moment you thought she was asking to move in as friends as roommates you knew you had a crush on her and you're like well i just won't tell her until afterwards well you know yeah she ended up liking you sure but it's it's it's it's dishonest to move in with someone and then move into their personal space knowing that you know how you you feel a certain way and they're unaware about that and now you're sharing a bathroom with someone that you quite honestly kind of wanted to see naked right and like that's a little yeah

you know my hope is that you learned a lot from this relationship. Oh, yeah. You know, and I hope you continue to try to learn more. Look, the fact that her shit is still at the place. Yeah. That's selfish of her. She doesn't give a shit about. Yeah.

You know, she does not care that she doesn't care that, you know, you still have to see her room and see her stuff. Meanwhile, pops in once in a while. She doesn't care about that. You're moving on or not. Quite honestly, she loves that you're're moving on or not quite honestly. She loves that. You're not moving on because you know,

if she's used to using people, Oh my God, she will show up at the store step. The moment she needs you when, when shit goes south for her or whatever, if this guy that she was into, or maybe some other guy rejects her, makes her feel less than right back and feel comfortable.

Oh my God. Yeah. Or she'll say, Hey, I'll text you and say, Hey, can you ship me this thing from my room? I need this thing. do this can you get my mail can you help me here can you pay the utilities now you know it's all these other things yeah i would yep i would stop responding

to her so you're still people pleasing you still don't have the boundaries she's in your space still yeah yeah until march once i'm gone you're correct well maybe until march honestly until you you know draw that line and stand up for yourself because it really doesn't matter she doesn't live with you now and even after march she can still reach out to you she can still find ways to you know use you and you're very you've been very accommodating and you need to start you're a nice guy yeah listening to yourself and stop making excuses for why you allow people to take advantage of your generosity. Yeah.

One thing I want to say is like, ever since we broke up and we've known for sure we've broken up, all of our conversation has been strictly business. It has not been any, oh, take me back. I can honestly say that. I believe that's great. But like, stop, you know, you don't need to reach out to her I believe that's great. But like stop, you know, you don't need to reach out to her landlord to make sure she's paying the rent, you know, because as you said, you offer to pay all of it. You offer to say, hey, I'll sign whatever document

to accept the liability of this rent. Her friend refused that. Great. Fine. You're still only, you're both on the lease. So if she stopped paying rent, that's not going to affect your credit or anything like that. She'd have to report her friend, which you know she's not going to do. And if things change, she could come to you and say, well, she stopped paying the rent. But again, I think you got to be very careful

of the lies you tell yourself because you reached out to your landlord to check in on her. That's the truth. Yep. You wanted to get an update. And quite honestly, your landlord kind of- Didn't give it to you. Didn't give it to you. She kind of called your bullshit a little Yep. You wanted to get an update. And quite honestly, your landlord kind of give it to you.

Didn't give it to you. She kind of called your con called your bullshit a little bit. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, I basically just want to make sure obviously she's getting her money. But yeah, I think it doesn't matter. It's irrelevant.

As long as you're only paying your half, it doesn't matter. Yeah. You need to work on you. You like I say this all the time. No one lies to us more than we lie to ourselves because we're always in our head it's very easy to rewrite narratives to justify our actions and you're doing this a lot and it's and and you're at risk because the way you lie to yourself is also sugar-coated with your generosity and your niceties and it's easy to be like well i'm a good guy you know and you are a good guy but you got to stop making excuses for this behavior that's putting yourself into compromising situations like like we said this

relationship was riddled with like red flags from the beginning and despite the pain that she's caused you and i'm really sorry for that the good news is is that if you were to like retrace your steps there's a lot of moments where you could have prevented this and this is not to just beat yourself up because you're relitigating the past, but you can, there's a lot to learn from this relationship, you know? But I don't know. Have you read a don't text your ex happy birthday yet? Yes. Make sure you get that for sure. I don't know if you've, I don't know if you talk about this other book called the way of the superior man. Have you ever, have you ever seen this book or read this book? The way of the superior man? Is it yours? No, it's not my book,

but it's a book that's been out there's not my book. I don't know. But it's a book that's been out there for like 25 years. I think you would really like this to allow you to have more respect for yourself, to create more boundaries. It's called The Way of the Superior Man. It's more kind of a spiritual guide to overcoming the limits that hold you back. But it's not my book. But I think you get a lot of value from it.

I'll check it out. Because it sounds, you know, from our short interaction with me and Nick here, it sounds like you haven't had a lot of experience in relationships, one or two, it sounds like, in the last 15 plus years. And you don't have a lot of confidence in yourself in relationship yet. So you've got some work to do for yourself. And that's not a bad thing. That's an exciting opportunity.

Okay, what do I get to overcome? Who do I get to step into? What's the human being, the man that I want to be and the vision for my life? This is an amazing, you know, rebirth opportunity for you. You're going to get out of this lease in a few months. Hopefully you go into a new space and you clear the old energy and you don't have her stuff lingering five feet away from you. Yeah. And you create an environment that allows you to respect yourself better. That creates an environment for space for the right partner to enter your life. When my fiance, now fiance,

My fiance, now fiance, but before we were dating and engaged, she got a new condo for herself. And she's tiny. She's like 5'2". How tall is your fiance? 5'9". 5'9", okay. My girl, she's tiny. It's a little pocket, right? A little pocket thing.

She's 5'2". And she was doing healing and, and, you know, working with a therapist and she got this space and she was originally going to get like a full bed or something. Cause she, it's still big or no, she was going to get a queen bed. And she said, are you attracting a queen or do you want to attract a King into your life? If so, you need to get a King bed to allow for space for someone to enter it and for them to be able to be in your space. And right now you don't have the space where you could attract a partner because no woman's

going to want to come over with your ex's stuff there. Otherwise you're just starting the relationship in the wrong energetic space. So, you know, you have an opportunity these next few months to start to transform yourself, to heal, to, you know, get some coaching, some therapy, and allow yourself to process why you allowed these things to happen. Not what's wrong with her and not at her attachment style, but why you allowed certain things and stepping into the man that you want to become, the man that makes you proud of who you want to be and that attracts the right partner for you. And so I'm assuming Nick would probably give a similar feedback on that, but

this is a great opportunity. You know, it doesn't have to be a sad thing, although you're going to grieve, but this is an opportunity to recreate yourself, create a vision for your life, create a vision for a relationship you want and start living into it. Yeah. I think Lewis said it great. I think just to end things, I think, you know, we always like,

how do I get closure? You know, you've heard me say you don't need closure from her, right? Like closure is going to be from you accepting the truth of this relationship, even though it's hard, because the truth is you were probably being used from the get-go and she took advantage of your generosity. She was probably never really fully into this

relationship. And you were probably doing a hundred percent of your half and 30% of hers. More than that. Yeah, more, more, or yeah, 49%, who knows? And that's the truth. And again, don't beat yourself up. But like Lewis said, this is a really great opportunity for you. So really reflect on that. Nick, did you ever get closure from your exes? No. Did they ever call you and say, Nick, I just wanted to apologize for the way things ended.

And I just want to say I'm sorry. And, you know, even though we both. Anytime that's ever happened, it was long after I gave a shit. Yeah. Years. Yeah. Years. It's like, oh, you ran into him. I'm like, hey, I'm sorry. And you know, even though we both, anytime it's ever happened, it was long after I gave a shit. Yeah. Years. Yeah. Years. It's like,

Oh, you ran into him. I'm like, Hey, I'm sorry. I'm a piece of shit. No problem. I could have used that a while ago.

Uh, but no, yeah, no one ever does. Never does. Don't expect it. Yeah. You'll get it from yourself.

You know, you get closure by seeing the situation for what it truly is. forgiving yourself for the mistakes you made, but a willingness to learn from it in the future. And that's all you can do. And listen, give yourself some slack. You have limited experience in this space. And everything takes practice, even love and dating and relationships. But just remember that for the next time. And yeah, I know.

Sorry, I was going to say, I know that if my friend was telling me this exact story, I know what I would say to him. Yeah. So it's obviously I'm in the position. So it's it's I have to see it from a different perspective. Yeah. Nick, how many how many long term relationships have you been in post-16 years old? Like real –

Yeah, like after like nine months or something at least a year. Five. Me too. Yeah. It took us five long-term relationships of us making mistakes and having challenges and adversity and lots of beauty and fun and adventure and you know love and all those things as well but it took both of us five different long-term relationships which for me also took you know lots of months of ending those relationships and grieving and healing and all these different things until we both are in healthy loving you know engagements

and uh so give yourself some slack. Like Nick said, it's, it takes practice. It takes work. And, you know, it's rare that someone meets someone for the first time when the, you know, their first relationship and it works out forever. So. Well, I really do appreciate it. All right. Well, good luck with everything. Um, I, I don't have an issue with you blocking her you know it's all about access she has a lot of access to you right now she's walking all over you

and whatever you can do to limit her access to you you're going to have to deal with her shit there because I don't think you should make it your problem by fighting that fight but like try to block that off get excited about your next apartment it's not too early to start looking about where you want to live and what neighborhood. Absolutely.

Take advantage of the time that you have. But you know you're moving out. That's an absolute. And make sure that your next place is something that you're really excited about. It's your place. And you have no reason to talk to this person. No. Pay the utilities.

Pay your half of the rent. If the landlord reaches out to you, fine, but never, you don't need to reach out to her. You really don't. Some of the utilities are in her name. So yeah,

I know I have, she has to like text me the, the amount I can pay, but yeah. Great. She can text you the amount and then you can pay it. You don't have to respond. That's it.

Yeah. In three months you're out. Yeah. Yep. Yep. But start standing up for yourself. Yeah. I got to have some confidence. you don't have to respond that's it that's it yeah in three months you're out yeah yep yep but start standing up for yourself yeah i gotta have some confidence i know that i've been lacking in like boundaries things and stuff like that but yeah you'll get there yeah yeah i'm learning all right buddy all right well good luck we appreciate it all right take care all right you too take care thank you well thanks for listening guys lewis thank you again for coming

i really enjoyed doing it with you you're welcome back anytime i hope you guys enjoyed this episode don't forget to send in those questions at ask nick at the vile files.com for all of your you know call or in needs uh we are here we look forward to uh next week we have a great week lined up for you so we'll see you back tomorrow bye