The Viall Files - E7 Katie Ward

Episode Date: February 13, 2019

On the seventh episode of The Viall Files, I'm joined by feminist Katie Ward for an honest conversation about dating. From the Aziz Ansari article to getting feedback in the bedroom, we attempt to open up the conversation men and women are having or not having about sex.  Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode! Oh... and Happy Valentine's Day.Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What's up, everybody? Yay! Change it up this week. How's everyone doing? Thanks for tuning in once again. I'm very excited for a couple reasons about this episode. First off, it is our seventh episode, and I was told when we started this podcast that the average number of podcasts that people make it to is seven before they crash and burn and die.

So we made it so far. Well, actually, haven't made it to eight. So like we've made it to seven, which makes me almost a little nervous because I'm very excited about this podcast. I'm also quite honestly, a little nervous about it because, you know, of what we're going to talk about, I'm very interested in this topic and, you know, I'm thankful that my audience seems incredibly diverse. I recognize that, you know, obviously a lot of my audience is predominantly women, which is great. Predominantly Bachelor fans and Bachelor Nation is very diverse in terms of their beliefs and where they come from. And so like I talked about on an earlier podcast, the way my brain works, I like to consider the other points of view, the other side.

I like talking about topics that sometimes are difficult to talk about. And I think that's my goal of today's podcast. Before we get into that, I just want to again say thank you for everyone's comments. Quite honestly though, your rankings on iTunes have slowed down. So if people are listening on iTunes, could just go give us five stars. After you're done listening to this, it would be greatly appreciated. Also, you can watch this on YouTube and all other platforms.

So just a quick plug that way. But today, I have my good friend Katie Ward with us today. And Katie is a writer, an activist, an actor. She's also a feminist who has a very popular podcast. I want to make sure I get it right. The Enthusiasm Enthusiast. Enthusiasm. You were so close. Enthusiasm Enthusiast. I picked it up. I read it and still got it wrong. No. I'm pretty sure I might be dyslexic. I'm not kidding. I thought it could be an interesting conversation just to have about what it really means about feminism and dating. And how can someone like me, the straight white guy, become more educated? These are very, you know, kind of controversial topics.

Sure. I don't want to get into that. But just the general idea of feminism. You know, what is that? And is it a less of a, is it a more safe word or a common idea than than a lot of people think yeah I mean I think when it comes to dating if your safe word is feminism that's a great uh safe word to use yeah I don't know but like it's funny you say the word feminist or you like google it and you're right you find some like nick is that your safe word what it's feminism oh my gosh that would be brilliant oh no no i just feel like i honestly

if i was going around like on my social like i'm a feminist i would i would like i don't can i say i don't know like is that cool like i'm was very proud of like how i was raised and how i was taught to respect women but like you know it was more when the, like Aziz Ansari's story came out. And that was, to me, a fascinating article because it was a lot of gray, you know? I mean, you read first, it was like at the tail end of all, like every day someone, you know, and then, you know, there was the obvious people

who were like, wow, he's, that's a terrible human being. There's no gray area in terms of like what they were accused of in terms of, and if that's right or wrong, it's clearly wrong. And then the Aziz story, you're reading it and you're thinking as a guy, you're just like, well, yeah, I mean, it sounds weird. You know, it seems creepy, but at the same time, like, I don't like you ask yourself questions in terms of, well, it seems like he had consent kind of thing. And it was just like, man, what if it left a lot of open for interpretation, I guess my point. I think women have those moments too, though. I think when I read the Aziz story, I was like, huh? Like I've definitely been there and I kind of felt for him too.

Like it felt, I think women took inventory too in a lot of situations. Like I feel for you. I feel for men. I felt for women during that time. Like I remember thinking last year, like, huh, there are a lot of really shitty guys out there. But we've had those moments too. And the Aziz story didn't make me think Aziz was a shitty guy. It made me think back on the times where it was gray for all of us, right?

Yeah. I mean, I think the Aziz thing—I think women absolutely have been in dates and moments where we did not feel empowered to say no. And I think also, so I think. What do you mean by that? And cause that's bringing an interesting point because when I, when I, when that Aziz story came out, here was one of my biggest takeaways. It was, there was a lot of gray area. And then I, you know, I have some friends who are, you know, self-proclaimed feminists who are writers and they're in journalism and they wrote some pieces that I was just, I guess was kind of uncomfortable with. I had some questions, you know, because a lot of my feminist friends talk about, um, and being empowered and being a strong woman, speaking up, having a voice. Great. I'm, I'm, I'm supportive of all that. And yet, then I read this article about how

I didn't feel like I could say something. I felt like I was, and again, as a guy, I'm thinking, what do you mean? Like, why not? Like, I would, you know, is that, who's, is that my fault? Is that Aziz's fault? It was this like, why didn't you say something in these moments and this one article that she she wrote about how the and she gave examples of these interactions with men dating you know you'll go she you know we go on a date you invite up to their house and next thing you know like he the guy goes in the bathroom walks out naked like ready to like hook up and like she was very uncomfortable. And I'm thinking, why didn't she be like, go put your clothes back on, you know? And it's just kind of like, what, who is, who is that? The guy's fault? Is that the, why aren't we having more

conversation? Because my biggest takeaway from the disease on sorry story was, why aren't we talking more about sex? Why aren't we talking more about like, what is expected of men in the dating arena? If, if it's not okay, if you're, if, if us men are making women feel uncomfortable and like, kind of like exuding our masculinity on them in the situations, why aren't you guys letting us know in the moment? Be like, that's not cool, dude. Right. You know, as opposed to doing it. See, that's the conversation. And then after the fact,

being like, well, I felt uncomfortable. And I'm just like, if that were me, I would feel terrible. We have generations of women who have been told that they're not even allowed to talk about it. That they're only allowed to talk about it in the privacy of like their girl group

and their girlfriends. So I definitely was never taught that it's okay for me. I mean, like I will, I will post this podcast and I'll be like, mom and dad, please don't listen. I know you want to support me, but I, why? Because I was not raised to talk about sex at all. Either was I, but I take an opposite approach to my parents. I'm like, here, deal with it. You're a guy though. But you're a guy because it's an interesting, I don't like that. I've never even thought about that. This is a conversation, right? Because of slut shaming, right? So slut shaming is a whole thing that I didn't even know until five or six years ago was something you weren't supposed to do, that it was wrong to make

women feel bad about sex. I was raised that you absolutely make women feel wrong. So here's a question, not to like get into it or seeking, like you, you watched The Bachelor. Yes. Did you watch it in real time when I called out Andy for having sex with me? I did. And I was fascinated about, by that. I mean, ultimately I regret doing it because she got a lot of flack for did. And I was fascinated about, by that. I mean, ultimately I regret doing it because she got a lot of flack for it. And I felt like I caused stress on her and her relationship at the time. Uh, I taking that away. I thought it was interesting because I got both praise and criticism from both conservatives and from people who are considered feminist on both sides of the aisle. So you can be a conservative feminist.

That does exist. Yeah, I'm curious. But yes. Yes. But so what was your, I mean, quite honestly, what was your honest reaction to that moment? In real time, I was frustrated with you. Okay, why? Because I felt like you were wanting to have a private conversation.

That was private between the two of you. But what I understood after the fact. Okay, but just why? We just got done talking about I was raised to talk about things in private. But maybe they shouldn't be as private. That's my question. That's what I'm curious about. Because I didn't feel like Andy had.

I didn't feel like you guys had an understanding that we're going to talk about this publicly. Oh, we definitely didn't, for sure. So I was frustrated with you that I didn't feel like she was getting a say in how her sex life was being discussed. Would it have been different if the roles were reversed? If Andy had called Nick out? Yeah. No, I don't think it would have been. I think I would have been. Not for you, but in general. I think in general, absolutely. It would have, the conversation around it would have been different.

Just for me, I just felt like, oh, why is that coming up now? Now, what I saw later, this is why it's important, is that you were not, from what you said, is you were not trying to like put her on blast. You were actually asking the question. This is like, I just, that was the only opportunity I had to question that I kept asking myself for two months after I got done. Can you remind everyone what the question was?

Well, I asked Andy why we hooked up. Wasn't it, why did you make love to me? Oh, sure. I think everyone needs to know. I don't like bring it up. I wish it would go away. You brought it up. Yeah, but it's an interesting point of view

in this conversation. And in the moment, it was more- It was hard to tell if you were sincere or not. It was more because it was hard to tell. It was more like sincere or not. It was more like she was just like, I, you know, I didn't. Chris Harrison asked her a question if she ever like loved me. And she's like, nah. And I was just like, well, shit. If you felt that way about me, knowing how I felt about you.

Why? Like, again, like I we talk about fuckboys and we talk about dating. And a lot of times I'll like even when I do my questions with Nick, it's like I felt used. I felt let on. I felt like all he wanted from me was sex. And that's like a common accepted thing from women to feel that way. Were you feeling used? In that moment?

Yeah. Well, again, I was basing this off. I thought Andy in the moment had real feelings for me. And why I agree about it is because I don't don't say it wasn't necessarily vindictive but when i'm on stage and she's just like yeah i didn't really you know i didn't i didn't really love him i'm like you knew exactly i mean i literally like before we hooked up was like i love you and i was very sincere about it and i'm hearing that i didn't feel that way for you. And in that moment we hooked up and would, to me as the guy, validated our relationship. Were you trying to hurt her when you said that? No, I was honestly

just wanted to know the answer. So I think that's, I think that's the thing. So in the moment it came off that you were trying to hurt or embarrass her and now having a longer arc of seeing what your actual personality is and who you actually are as a person. It's like, no, actually Nick just talks really frankly about sex and it wouldn't occur to him that it might be hurtful to her. I mean, it's certainly in the, well, that's like, I'm not that inept to not realize it could have hurt her. I think I was just caught up in the moment of emotion right's, I mean, like, I'm not that inept to not realize it could have hurt her. I think I was just caught up in the moment of, of emotion right there. I mean, and again, my whole point of bringing it up is because I still find it interesting, again, that double standard of, of, of like the perception of men, you know, again, in that moment, I felt, I don't

want to say I felt used, but I felt like led on by the fact that we hooked up and she knew how I felt. And if it's the revolt, the roles are reversed, you know, we're called fuck boys all the time for like, listen, I just want to hook up, you know? And if a girl has feelings, it's just seems to be this weird thing and talking about feminism or talking about, but like, we're just not discussing sex and dating. And there seems to be surprisingly in 2019 this huge disconnect when it comes to like dating and sex and what's okay. Rachelle, you seem like. Well, I just had a comment about the Aziz thing. It's like there's also something to take into account. Like women, we have to think about safety.

And we're in a very vulnerable position when you're alone with a man. And I'll be honest. I've said things and the guy's gotten mad like if I'm like not feeling it all of a sudden do you sometimes give examples well they'll they just like they if if you if you stop things when they seem like they're going because you feel weird about anything yeah I've multiple times men have gotten angry at me and honestly it's very uncomfortable and it's scary. And how are you going to leave?

How are you going to get home? I don't know. Start making those calculations. Yes, you calculate. And sometimes you're like, maybe it's just easier. I'm just going to get through this and then like never see this person again.

It's so interesting. So to that point also, I think something that's really important to remember in these situations is that usually if you're on a date or if you're hooking up or whatever, you like the person and you want them to like you. And you can go into a date being like, I'm not going to sleep with him. I'm not going to sleep with him. Can I interject as a follow up?

Yes. Is that that's kind of the other side of the argument. subject and as a follow-up because it is that that's kind of the other side of the argument. And I will joke. And even with my female friends where after the disease, I'm sorry, story came out. If like, I go on a date, I might be a second date with the girl. And for whatever, at some point in the date, if she's like, we have dinner, we have drinks and there's kind of that, like, what do we do next moment? And she's like, well, well, do you want to go back to your place or come back to my place and have a drink? And before we go home out of nowhere, just so you know, we're not having sex, you know, playfully, whatever. And I kind of joke with even some of my female friends and I'm

thinking, all I know right now is the only one who brought up sex is her. Right. And I'm thinking someone's thinking about sex. Now I'm not like assuming whatever. And it's like this joke. And there have been many times on a date where the girl who's like playfully, just, you know, we're not going to have sex tonight. Well, we end up having sex. Now I read this Aziz Ansari story. And I think about that situation and being like, wait a second. If a girl has told me at some point, even jokingly, just, you know, I'm not hooking up with you tonight. And we end up hooking up at some point that should I, at this point be like, well, you told me in the early in the date, we're not having sex. And no matter what you said or did or happened afterwards, even though you

made it very clear, like, Hey, do you have a condom? Like I get, I got, I felt uncomfortable reading that. And I'm just curious is like hearing you talk about it in terms of like I'll be honest like I don't necessarily I always was raised to be respectful to women so like to get mad at a girl who doesn't want to hook up I would like that would I would never think to do that it's surprising to me that women it's it's common I think and so what's right or what's right or wrong for me should I what should I not be doing that? Well, here's what I would say. I would say, first of all, like we like the guy. We want the guy to want us.

We want him to like us. Sometimes you can feel it's like going off the rails and like maybe he's losing interest or maybe it's not working. And so there's a talk in your head that's like, well, I really want him to like me. Okay. Okay.

Well, yeah, I can get into it. I can do it. That makes me feel terrible. Right. So now I'm thinking back all the times I've been on a date with a girl. She's just like, no, we're not. I'm not hooking up with you tonight. What if you say.

And then we do. And it's just like, well, what did I somehow voodoo you into having sex with me? But what if you say in that moment, hey, you earlier that we you didn't want to have sex tonight and it's kind of feeling like you're changing and I just want to check in with you like are you okay I'll be honest I've never done that right because you didn't know it was an option I love when guys do that when they're just very I really like when they're just very clearly ask it's like makes it very I mean again I'm not like but like there have been times where we will start making out and it will get hot and heavy, so to speak. And then she'll stop or say something like, do you have a condom?

Or like, let's go in the bedroom. And it's like, okay, you know, and like, I'm, I feel like I check in non-verbally, you know, but like I've never stopped and said time out I just want to be clear when we ordered dessert you were you were like hey we're not having sex and you just asked me if I have a condom so like do you are you you know like can you please sign here because like I I I don't I don't want anyone to have sex with me unless they really want to have sex with me I don't I don't like I'm not sex with me unless they really want to have sex with me. I don't. I don't.

Like I'm not interested in some girl putting up because she's trying to get me to like her. And to be clear, no one's assuming that you're doing anything like you. No, but I hear these stories and I feel like I, as a guy, I'm taking for granted the situations that women often find themselves in. Every girl has had a story or a moment that made them feel incredibly uncomfortable where they either felt like they had to do something or didn't do something and felt really bad or shitty about themselves. So I had like, I remember this guy, I was like, I had a date with this doctor and like, we went back to my apartment and we were

talking and I basically said to him, I'm not going to have sex with you. And he all but shoved me out of the way and said, what the fuck am I doing up here? Are you serious? Yes. Who are these people? Awful. Remember when all this me too? Does this happen a lot, Rochelle? You're single, you're out there dating.

All the time. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. So this is why you ask, like, why is all this stuff happening? why is all this stuff happening? It's because women have had very mixed, uncomfortable, complicated relationships with sex, dating, and relationships,

and because it's been very secretive for us, right? Lola. What is Lola? Lola is a female-founded company offering a line of organic cotton feminine products like tampons, pads, liners, and all-natural cleaning wipes. They also have a sex line of condoms,

lubricant. Ooh. Listen, first of all, safe sex, people. I mean, if you're not lucky enough to be in a relationship and you still have needs and you hook up, I'm not saying whatever, you know, my parents will probably cringe. Safe, consensual sex. But I feel like lube, you know, can be appropriate sometimes.

You know, assuming your guy can last more than a minute. It might have helped during the time with Sue. Maybe that's why Sue needed it. I think maybe Sue needed it. Also, I think Sue just needed me to be a little bit more attentive to, you know, just in general.

God bless her. Thank you, Sue, for changing my life. So much anxiety. Have I always considered myself a feminist since I was a wee little girl? Yes. The definition of that changes and it also doesn't change, you know, what I would do today. I'm a married lady now, so it's different. But if I were in the single world today, my expectations would be so different and my understanding of it would be so different from when I was 23 and just begging for a guy to like me and not having the understanding of,

wow, if I'm just more of my confident self. Like I always felt confident enough to be the only woman on a stage performing, holding my own with the guys and that level of my feminism, like achievement unlocked. But when we talked about in the bedroom, oh my gosh, uh, do I, how do I look? How do I feel? Do I know what I'm doing? Does he like this? All that sort of stuff. That was not part of my education in feminism. It just wasn't. And so it's, there's, there are often these like dichotomies of, you know, you're just not fully integrated into yourself yet, you know?

Sure. I mean, so another argument, not the argument, but a side of it as the guy like asking questions and like the Aziz Ansari story comes out where I remember at a time dating this girl and it was early on and like we had been on a few dates and you know getting hot and heavy there's that kind of start making out and again she never she never she didn't say necessarily we're not having sex but it was like a lot of starting and stopping with the making out and it was very kind of high school-ish. Like it was fun in that kind of that first time you really start to get physical. And there was a lot of moments of like, we would progress and then she'd kind of like pull my hand away, you know, this kind of yin and yang. And then it kind of looked at me,

we kept it going. And then it got to the point one time she's like, looked at me and she's like, no. And I was like, no problem. Like, cool problem like cool and then she literally goes no I'm just kidding keep like there's this whole like I she was kind of like she liked the whole like almost feel that I mean it was and I was at that point I was literally uncomfortable I mean like fuck man I don't like this is hot but like i'm like what do you want man like i don't like i was you know with this attempt of like not like and you're allowed to ask you're allowed to say i will say there's an art to put on the guy there's an of course but i hear an argument even from women saying they like that the excitement of feeling. Wanted. Not even wanted, but almost kind of like this nervous energy of, is it okay?

Like the taboo-ness of it. I agree. It's a lot of pressure for guys right now. I'm just like, fuck, man. Like, you know, that's just hot. But like the last thing I want is to leave and like get a text. Like the Aziz, like, I'll be honest, I felt uncomfortable. I felt like you, you know, and I mean, fuck.

I'm just like. I remember saying to Nick a couple of weeks ago, or maybe it was a couple of months ago when he was, you know, a little bit confused and he's like, I don't know, you know, if someone is going to do something, come after me. And I was like, I said to Nick, no, no, I am not. Well, I mean, like for the record, I wasn't really worried about me ever. Like I was.

Nick is a great guy. And this is my followup. I said, good guys don't go down. I said, we're not not no one's coming after the good guy right now in all honesty I said you're not doing anything wrong but it is confusing my point of this it wasn't about worried about uh am I the good guy the bad guy it was more like I like this we're having this conversation it was like I think as men I just don't think again as men and women we're having these conversations and i think we're just a lot of guys who are like really you have to go through that like fuck like i never knew like i we were talking before the show katie and i and i

would i was just like well it i've had my ass pinched more than, like, it would not be an exaggeration to say that throughout my life, long before I was ever on TV, growing up in Milwaukee, that I've had my ass pinched at a bar at least 200 times. Not an exaggeration. I'm not. So bonkers. It's crazy. Have you guys ever pinched someone's ass? Happened. Not anyone I didn't know and wasn't in a relationship with.

By one o'clock in the morning, drunk girl in Milwaukee at a bar sees me, thinks I'm cute. And instead of saying something to me, pinches my ass. Yeah. And it's fucking annoying. Now, interestingly enough, like, I find it annoying, but I'm not, I don't think anything more of that. I'm not like, I don't think it's okay, but I wasn't, I wasn't about to like point the finger and be like, you sexually assaulted me or anything like that. And I guess I just kind of dismissed it. And it was an interesting point that you mentioned to me when I asked you that question is like, yeah, but when you leave the bar, you're not like checking to see

where that girl is and if she's going to follow you to her car right and making sure that you are with friends so that you don't walk and i was just like fuck i never i never thought of that you didn't hold your hand over your drink all night to make sure nobody put anything yeah i've never had that thought and i like i'm aware like i've sort of heard of roofing and the date rape drug but sure that happens but i honestly think a lot of people think those are like these exception cases. And in terms of just going on a date with a woman and making sure she doesn't feel pressure to have sex. I read that article.

I'm like, what am I doing? It wasn't like trying to figure out if someone's going to come after me or am I a good guy or a bad guy. But what are the areas of gray that I could do a better job? Right. I don't think it's like you have to stop everything and make them sign on the dotted line. guy or a bad guy, but like, what are the areas of gray that I'm not doing? I could do a better job. Right. I don't think it's like you have to stop everything and make them sign on the dotted line. I think just checking in and asking, it's like really easy, really quick. And I really appreciate it. Yeah. And it's hot. I think that's the other thing that is really worth discussing is that it is hot for a man to check in and be like, do you like this? Does this feel good? Do you want this? I'm all about that. I'm very communicative. Ironically enough, Andy wrote a book.

All right. And in that book, I never read it, but she- I did. You did. She tells a story that is technically true, but in the context of what she tells it. But I basically, in the fantasy suite, asked Andy. Here's how I asked it. I asked if you were to have sex four times, how many times would you rather fuck or make love? Oh, okay.

It was more like, you know, kind of like, are you just want to be romantic all the time? Or do you want to like, it was more like. Wait, why four? I don't know. I just made it up. But like, it was like getting of average, you know, it was like, it wasn't just like, because the answer is like, yeah, I like to do both. I like to have crazy fun sex.

And I like to have those moments of like, we're really connecting. And I was curious of like, out of 10 times. So Andy called him out then. And she said it was the most awkward dating experience like of like, first of all, I thought she was at that moment maybe trying to sell a book and kind of.

But isn't that the same thing you did to Andy then? If she wrote about it in the book, then it's the same thing you did to her, right? Sure. I mean, whatever. Did she contact you before the book came out? Fuck no. Oh, so that's the same thing.

Okay, all right. But that's retaliatory then that's whatever I'm not trying to call out Andy here or whatever I'm just I'm just actually curious about um it seems like right here I am honestly trying to be like right like what are you into like what like yeah do you want to like rough it up a little bit or and once in a while or do you always want to like passionately look into each other's eyes and make sweet sweet love what are you into and i got called out for being like well did she respond what do you mean did she answer uh she said i she i remember though she like it was although it was yeah i mean she kind of was like surprised by my question i don't know if it was like you know maybe the southern belle from Atlanta I don't know but she's oh my god oh my

goodness but yeah I mean I I like to I mean I do find it surprising to be honest when I've I sometimes if I like to have these conversations whether it's the first time I I mess we connect with someone they'll ask questions like, well, what do you like? I've learned that through my expansive dating history that women have an array of different preferences. That's why his safe word is feminism, by the way. I don't even know what I've said so far. I'm really nervous about this podcast.

Nick is slowly sinking down on his chair. Like, if you see him, he's like lower and lower. He's behind the chair by the end of the podcast. Nick? Well, it's been fun, guys.

Seven episodes in. Guys, we made it. I just want to say, first of all, you're doing great. I'm here to say you're doing great. Also, the point of feminism

is not to exclude people and like call people out. The point is to bring people into the fold, right? That's the point. Like we want more people on the team, not less. So to the butt pinching, first of all, that's totally inappropriate. It's not okay. Thank you. It is not okay for someone to touch your ass without your consent. Like that is not okay. It is also okay. It's not okay. Thank you. It is not okay for someone to touch your ass without

your consent. Like that is not okay. It is also okay. It's not okay. Andy is saying it in the, her, I guess that's her second book. I don't know if that's her first. Okay. It's best. It's a New York Times. Good for her. Um, so that's not okay. I want to, I just want to affirm that for you. Secondly, there's a whole lived experience that happens for women, and I will specify cisgender women, that I can speak to. Other people have other experiences.

But I can say to you that the first time that someone was inappropriate with me was when I was four years old. And then after that, and that was, I won't get into that, um, someone was inappropriate with me was when I was four years old. Um, and then after that, and that was, uh, I won't get into that, but that was the first time that doesn't include every time I was at a grocery store and an old man blew a kiss at me and it, and it, that's not appropriate. Like that's weird. It's weird for an adult man to blow a kiss at a child. Now, that doesn't go on to... A stranger?

Yes, a stranger. And you can feel in your body the difference when you're being, when someone's trying to like be cute with you and flirty with you as an adult. And why would an adult person look at a child that way? So then you can, now I can go to high school. And I've already had all these experiences that I've racked up. So then I go to high school and a guy I went to high school with

who is in the CIA now, like cornered me in the dark room at photography class. And technically I'm not, I can't tell you what he did other than he like stood his body behind me and got too close to me in an inappropriate way. And that felt bad. Then I got to college and then guys were trying to like take me from one room to the next where I was going to be alone. So what I'm, my point in all of this is most women have had most of these experiences.

So by the time we get to be 25 and have our ass grabbed at a bar, it's just a totally different experience than yours. No, I don't doubt it. I don't invalidate your experience because that is your experience. No, and I'm not looking necessarily at you. I'm asking as a point of reference because I can honestly say like when I got my butt pinched, all it was to me was annoying and I like I gave it no more thought. I didn't worry about anything.

And to hear the fact that you guys have to like, it's traumatic. I need I need three. I'm sure you guys will follow me. Did you see did you see the video that came out like probably like six months ago? And it was a woman who was a waiter at a server at a bar. And she was like doing her, you know, like going into the cash register

and like typing something in. And some guy just walked by and grabbed her ass. And she literally, you could tell she did not think. She just turned and manhandled him and threw him up against the wall. And it went viral. And she went on like Good Morning America and all these other shows. And it's like, because I promise you, she has had that happen. That was the 26th time it's happened.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Yeah. Probably a hundredth time. Right. So it would go to show that's part of why you're going to get mixed signals from women, because we just don't have it all set. And sometimes we're involved in sexual experiences that are consensual, and sometimes we're involved in sexual experiences that are not consensual,

and we're still trying to navigate that. Well, we're also taught to use our sexuality as power too. So it's a very interesting thing. So I remember when all the powerful men using their sexual stuff last year when all the stuff came out, I remember having very mixed feelings about it because I thought back and I took inventory. If, you know, a powerful producer had come up to me in my early 20s and offered me a job, if I'd done something, would I have done it? The answer probably would have been yes. Right. Because your power dynamics.

Your power dynamics. Or, you know, Bill Clinton or whatever. Not to get into politics. But it's a very complicated situation for women and probably men. But not even that. Because that's like the i think the extreme but i in my first relationship my first girl my first girlfriend when i was 18 19 um like the like the first time really hooking up with someone and she absolutely

used sex is for power it was like i i'm any teenager. I want to have sex all the time. And she was like, well, if you do this, it was literally like negotiating. Cause she just wasn't like, as you know, I was the horny teenage boy. She was like, sex is fine, but like, it's fun. But I wanted to have it more than she did. So if I gave her a massage, like it was always like a barter thing and she absolutely used it. And when the few times where maybe I was tired or something, she would then be offended if she wanted to hook up and I didn't, but she could say no as many times as she want. And that was totally fine. But if I was like, man, I'm just really tired. It was like, you don't want

to have sex with me. It was kind of this expectation of like using sexuality. And that, and that was just a playful fine, but but in the in a very safe place of we're in a relationship and we have sex so but even then you could argue that she used it to get what she wanted from time to time yeah it's fuzzy and and as you know i mean 20s i probably wouldn't have had the wherewithal at 35 i can say no i can say you know i'm powerful i can say what i want and when i want it but women in their 20s are complicated and they don't know how to say no. I can say, you know, I'm powerful. I can say what I want and when I want it. But women in their 20s are complicated and they don't know how to say no quite yet. And they don't know how to articulate

what they want and when they want it. And also we haven't been believed. Right. This moment in history is like, it's so pivotal. And so it's really hard to, it's really hard to talk about our experiences that maybe happened like 10, 15 years ago, because it's just a, we're in a totally different landscape now. And the kids that like,

you know, Sam's a mom, I'm a mom. My child has been raised, you know, she's eight and she has been raised that you just don't touch people without talking with them first and that's so different than everything we were raised with well i don't know maybe my mom was ahead of her time but we were how we i i was you know when i was a little boy i had two an older sister and two younger sisters before the rest of my siblings all popped out. And respecting our bodies and our privacy was a huge, I mean, it was just a huge, huge thing that my mom was just very mindful of. That was just a big deal to her and just respecting, you know, I don't know. We have to be overly, as parents, as people, overly careful not to pass along our neuroses to other people. Like, not to get into this, but like any weight and body image issues issues i have i can't talk about in front of my child 100 because he

hears and sees everything i do so i don't get on the scale in front of anything these are my own issues but like your mom must have been really careful about this too because with 10 kids if you guys all turned out pretty amazingly you than him. And the fact that you're so... Which one, Nick? Which one is not? That you're so, like, down for your partner's, like, consent and pleasure and, like, all of that. Like, the fact that you're so

down for that, I'm so curious, like, where did that come from? Because that does not typically come from... That surprises me. And not to give myself too much credit,

because I just assume it's ego, right? ego and the fact that like you mean wanting her to have pleasure is ego yeah it's more like if I were if I'm intimate with my girlfriend or whatever I want to think I'm really good at hook you know like I'm good I enjoyed my time with Nick doing the damn thing so like I can whatever I can thing. I enjoyed my time with Nick. Doing the damn thing. So like, whatever. I can take care of myself if things don't finish. But like, I would prefer to do that and have her leave being like, I can barely walk. This is amazing. Or I really enjoyed myself.

I'm coming back for more as opposed to like, I get off and I like, she does all the things that she thinks I enjoy. I finish. And she leaves being like that was a very unsatisfied experience like I'm not and then so I just feel like like to I just I just like it's kind of ego where I want like I want someone to like you know and I want to be sensitive and I want to and I want her to feel safe and I want her you know right and there's an exciting you know obviously we push the limits sometimes within like the confines of hopefully there's a mutual understanding

because there's like that, maybe that role playing when I say push the limits of, of things like that. But I just, I've always thought that way. I've always been, I, you know, here's, I'll tell a story. Here's where it maybe comes from. I like how he just whined at himself. This kind of came to me. I'm a little nervous about this story.

You might cut it out. When I was in high school, one of my first girlfriends and it was like one of the first girlfriends it was before I was a virgin still but we were

we were touching privates. Right? We were going to third base a lot. Is that okay to say? Rochelle's like I don't know. Everybody's leaving their chairs in this room.

And this is, this is when we're like, I don't know how the kids are doing it today, but like, it was a lot of like, you know, putting our hands down each other's pants and going up shirts and a lot of that. And our clothes are half on half off. And we're, and we would like like we didn't know really what we were doing so we would just do this forever like and by like 45 minutes of like me putting my hands down her pants right and so her doing the same to me and you're just kind of like I don't know being probably not really thinking about how to do it you're just doing it for the sake of not being crude. And I'll never forget that one of her friends came up to me like in gym class and she was like, Hey Nick. I was like, what's up?

She's like, um, and I won't use her now. I'm making up the same. She's like Sue. Her name wasn't Sue, but like, so you know when you're like messing around with Sue and you're, you're uh i mean you're fingering her like i don't know like i don't know how else to say it and and you're just like really cranking away and i'm like yeah she doesn't like that and i'm like really and i remember her telling me this like how much she hated basically me putting my hands on her pants and just like I don't know like trying to figure it out trying to figure it out and I remember being like a mortified as it but as it but immediately being like well what does she like what can I how

all right fine right thanks for letting me know thanks for doing like she she didn't call me out she was like she literally I mean I think about it like the maturity of her friend to just pull me aside and being like that's a good friend hey listen like she i'm not trying to embarrass you but like stop doing that you're just trying and i was like i was like well first of all oh i feel dirty second of all like well what and she literally taught me like what to do and it and it changed everything and i remember always thinking about that moment of asking questions in that moment i felt what it was like i realized that for a month when we were a couple 20 teenagers doing this she she hated it. You know? So like all these moments I'm playing back.

Well, we kind of messed around there and we messed around that. And for 45 minutes, she's just like, I think this is fine. You know, like, and I felt bad, you know, like I felt. And so all I wanted was to never a be in that position, never put someone else in that position. So at that moment I was just like, I'm just going to ask, you know, save a lot of time to be like, well, do you like this or do you like that? And I've realized again, like I said this earlier, when it comes to dating and

I'm older now and I've had relationships with different women and I've dated and, and women all like sorts of different things just because one woman likes this or, and guys too. And so I just save myself a lot of time. Be like, what are you into? What do you like? How can I make your experience enjoyable? And also when you're first figuring it out,

girls are not taught to, to, to masturbate or to teach themselves what they like. So like, whereas, you know, you guys are pretty like, I have so much anxiety right now.

No, guys learn things from porn. Right, exactly. Oh, it's another great point. Yes. I'd never thought about this, but one of my feminist friends, she's like, well, do you know, like, all porn is, it's like, it's how to get guys off. And I, like, I never thought about that. I never thought about, like, we're all watching porn, men and women. I mean, we're all watching porn, men and women. I mean,

we're all watching porn, right? Yeah. I've watched porn. I haven't watched it lately, but there is feminist porn. When you watch it, you watch it,

it is like, if guys are learning how to have sex by watching porn, it makes sense why so many men out there who never like maybe had their friend in high school

to be like, hey, Sue's not into this and i was like okay how and it's probably why guys are you know not to like take the blame off of guys but that is i never thought about that right and you're like you were telling me how there's feminist porn there is feminist porn i haven't seen it so i i i know it exists and in fact uh is it called feminine? And it's called feminist porn. Yeah. Like I think you can Google feminist porn. I feel like they

should, from a marketing standpoint, I feel like they should change the name to what, well, how to teach a guy to be good at sex. Maybe. I don't know. Like, well, listen, I'm, I'm here saying like feminist isn't a bad word and whatever. It's for women. It's not for you. I'm fine. But I don't know. For all the women are like, every time I hook up with this guy, he's just like, suck my dick. You know, like, you know, like you watch a porn. It's just like, hey, baby, we soon as you start, the guy's just like, you know, like, that's not cool. It's not okay. It also happens all the time in porn. Right. So wouldn't feminist or this porn that's not for men, I feel like it should be fucking for men.

Like they should absolutely be watching and be like, just in case you're interested in what we enjoy, here you go. That's the whole point. The whole point is to- I'm not trying to steal it from you. I'm just like, I feel like women would- It's open to you too.

What I'm saying is like the point is to give women something that they can feel good about, get into, feel like the actors are not being taken advantage of. That some poor girl didn't like, you know, take the train from Milwaukee and like show up to LA and now she's, you know, doing this. The point is to like empower people

to, you know, have these fantasies. Like I would tell any guy out there, if you want to have an understanding of media that is feminist and for women and sexy, Magic Mike XXL is so dead on. Every feminist I know is like, that is the fucking hottest shit ever. Is this the movie?

Yes. I should watch it. And the show. Right, they have it in Vegas now. And so like, and the point of Magic Mike, if you haven't seen it, I think you should go back and watch it.

I've seen parts of the first movie. Yeah, no, no, no. The first movie wasn't for us. But the second movie is all about how they are deciding to take this male dancer thing that's always been foist upon us as what our fantasies should be and could be and change it to what are they really. And it's usually in service to women, right?

That's a great way of like watching something that totally speaks to what women actually find hot and sexy and want. So what are some of the biggest takeaways that men and women, how can we all be more accountable for making feminism and sex and dating a better experience for everyone so that, you know, again, I can't defend the guy who says, what the fuck, when you're like, I don't want to have sex. I mean, that seems pretty shitty. But like, how, like, how can we, like, I always contend that, yeah, there's a lot of shitty people out there, but there's also a lot more people who want to be the good guys.

And we don't always, or in women too women who want to do things the right way and maybe we are just all a little ignorant i mean i know i like i grew you know i've had ignorant points of view in my life and it wasn't because i just was more educated so what can we all do what can women do and what can men do to hold ourselves all more accountable so that we all have a better experience in the dating world. And we're all, you know, more pro-feminist and equality. And we're, you know, we're respecting women and women are respecting themselves and men are respecting themselves too. And what could we all do? I think the first thing to do is always, the first thing that's really easy to do is take in feminist media and take in,

we have access to the whole world right now, right? Like we can listen to podcasts, we can go on the internet, we can watch TV shows, like take in media that is not created by someone who looks like you. So like, for example, like Insecure is a great show that centers voices of women of color from a feminist point of view. And they don't always get it right. Like they're flawed and foibled. And like, it's really funny.

They have great sex scenes in Insecure if anybody's looking for really hot sex scenes. And because it's not perfect. So I think that's one thing to do is, like, expose yourself. Like, if every podcast on your playlist is, like, three, like, white dudes that are making themselves laugh, like, expand your point of view. laugh? Like expand your point of view. So one, one pushback, not even a pushback, but sometimes I sometimes get frustrated at my feminist friends, especially in the media is I will say, because there's a crit, I would say the criticism against feminism or feminists is that they come across sometimes as anti-men. And I will say like, I have friends who like, I love,

they're, I, they're, I love. They're great. I like talking to them. I like having these discussions with them. I listen to their perspective. And I follow them on Twitter. And there are sometimes they tweet things. And I'm just like, I immediately feel, as a guy, and I'm your friend, I feel defensive. There was an article, like, one of them posted saying, 2019, a bad year for men.

And it had a picture of like Kevin Spacey and Harvey Weinstein. I'm like, really? All of men? Because like there's a couple of shitty dudes. I'm sure there's plenty of shitty dudes, but like generalizing men. And I don't get why sometimes self-proclaimed feminists have that kind of talk track and that messaging, because even as a guy who wants to be supportive of women and feminism, I will read that and feel defensive. I will feel like, and there have been other like tweets that it was just, it comes across as very generalizing about men in general.

And I don't doubt they've had shitty experiences with men, but like I get defensive and uncomfortable. And sometimes I wish they wouldn't have those messaging because, you know, when your example of, well, seek out more different types of mediums to kind of educate yourself, I think it turns people off because it comes across as like, well, they just hate men. I'm not going to listen to them because they're just anti-men and they like, it's not about equality. It's about revenge. Um, and I, you know, sometimes I would get frustrated with my feminist friends because it's just like, Oh, like, come on. Like, I understand. Like, but like, and I understand when you can't also always appeal to the masses and you have to – but I don't know.

I sometimes get confused and frustrated because it's like I will feel like either I know you because I get you. I know I feel defensive. And God forbid someone who doesn't know you, who is unsure about the meaning or the word feminism, and if they read that, immediately just kind of dismiss you. Right. So we have to remember that feminism is really good for men. It is a good thing for men. And here's why. Because it's good for us to be in situations like, say, if we're talking about having sex, like it's good for men to know that they can ask women what they want, how they want it,

and that they're not considered less of a man for caring about that. So what feminism does is it says, hey, if you have feelings and like, hey, Andy's telling you that she didn't really give a shit about you or whatever, and that hurt your feelings, feminism like acknowledges it and says like, yeah, that is shitty. You get your ass grabbed in a bar. Feminism says, yeah, that's not, that's not okay. And it's not, it's not anti-man. It's giving men more options to be who they are and giving women more options to be who they are. who they are and giving women more options to be who they are. So I love that when I, you know,

go to pick up my kid at school, there are tons of dads there picking up their kids at school, which means maybe somewhere their wife is, or their partner or whoever is, you know, maybe bringing home the bacon and, and you know what I mean? So it's all about like options. That's the thing that I generally, like I look at my, again, my parents, like my parents couldn't be more conservative. I teach like hardcore and you know, we'll get into,

like I said, we'll get into a future podcast about, you know, my parents kind of educating themselves as well. And they're still very conservative. But you know, and my mom traditionally did a lot of the traditional like did you know she's a stay-at-home mom so she did the laundry and cooked and yeah whatever but and my dad was you know went to work but like I can't I don't know how many like my dad often cooked dinner from time to time or like did his part or helped my mom when she needed help and my mom sometimes mowed the lawn it wasn't like they weren't like this is your job and these are your roles. They generally did these things,

but they were just a team. And so it wasn't like they didn't, they didn't put a lot of emphasis on it, even though most of the time they did the traditional things. My mom traditionally did what came across as your, the housewife, like what she would do. And, you know, and I just think that maybe that's

how I learned that it wasn't like yeah we generally do these things but it's not it doesn't define us and we're not required to do it. Right you love to iron. I'm a fantastic ironer and I'm very proud of it and I'm not ashamed to know that and just because someday I hope to find a wife who's willing to fold my laundry it's not because she's a. It's just I fucking hate folding laundry. I also think with your ironing skills, you might find a wife who's willing to fold that laundry. I think that's an even trade-off, and I'm not talking about gender roles when I say that.

And laundry is my favorite chore because I can watch TV while I do it. I agree. And I don't want to be attacked by saying I hope to find someone who folds my laundry. No. I don't see that. Like, no. Hey, Nick, do you think one of these Skype calls is someone who's willing to fold No. I don't see that. Like, no.

Hey, Nick, do you think one of these Skype calls is someone who's willing to fold your laundry? We're not doing Skype. Oh, wait. Yeah. What do I do? We're doing an ad. Oh, we're doing an ad. Do you think this ad is someone?

That was a really shitty segue, though. Sex. Sex. We don't always have to have amazing segues. We can just be like, hey, guys, you know what time it is? It's time for. It's time for an ad. It's time to sell some things.

Let's talk about feminine products. Well, I will say, I think our sponsor for today's episode is Apropos. I'm pretty sure that the listeners of this podcast are predominantly women. All you women out there, thanks for listening. I hope that we get more male audience. My goal of this podcast is to just be kind of a place that men and women can find it to be useful,

educational, fun, funny, but also how can we all get better at dating? And to your point, I think if we support feminism and equality, you guys out there can probably get bragged about a little more often and to your girlfriend's circle of friends, as opposed to like, no one wants to have that Sue conversation with your friend that I had in high school that I tried to avoid. Speaking of questions, feel free. We'd love to have more questions in the future episodes about

your experiences, men and women, about maybe some awkwardness, some uncomfortable situations you didn't have the answers to. Maybe we can talk about it more in future episodes. I think that would be fun, interesting, and probably funny too. And hopefully helpful. Let's get into some calls and we we'll uh have some fun we have we have someone here uh our first caller what is your name i'm nick this is katie

hi guys i'm allison i'm calling from boston hi out boston first boston caller um allison how can we help so my question really revolves revolves around how to handle insecurities on a first date. So a little bit of backstory on this one is I was dating this guy for about six days, had really great, like the one potential, like probably more so than anyone I've ever online dated before. And unfortunately he didn't feel the same way. So the relationship ended and I'm trying to get back out there, but I started this new medication and I gained a bunch of weight, about 10 pounds. So I'm really kind of trying to figure out how to handle it. Like I'm definitely a curvy person. So, you know, I'm always a little bit insecure about my weight

anyway. And I know that first impressions and like attraction on a date are important, but I'm also like a super active person. I'm interested in active people. I like to hike. So I'm trying to figure out how do I handle this? You know, do I wait until I figure out the medication situation, lose the weight to get back out there? Do I just change my profile pictures? Do I bring it up on a first date if I don't look quite like my pictures or am I making way too big of a deal out of this? Sure. I mean, I don't know you. I mean, it's my first time seeing you. You look great. I mean, you don't seem, I don't mean, I don't know, 10 pounds. I don't, you know, my guess, my quick answer is probably you're making, I mean, it's important to you. So I can't say you're making too big of a deal about it, but you're probably more sensitive to it than what other people might notice.

People have personal, guys and women, let's just talk about guys. I guess we all have personal preferences in terms of what we're attracted to from a physical aspect. I have always said, interestingly enough, but if I had to choose, right? When it comes to weight, if we're just talking strictly weight here and just talk, if someone said, Hey, Nick, if you were dating someone, would you rather

have your girlfriend be 10 pounds underweight or 10 pounds overweight? I would choose 10 pounds overweight every single time. That's again, now, I mean, the girl who's like maybe 10 pounds underweight because of a, a hyperactive, um, you know, uh, what, you know, thyroid, like that's just a personal preference. So I'm not telling a girl who's underweight to feel insecure about it. But just for your point of view, I would, I don't think that's a big deal. And so I would challenge you to not be so insecure about it if you can. I definitely wouldn't go on a date and the first two dates, like just kind of have this confessional, just so you know, I think I'm hotter than I actually perceive myself to be right now. If in terms of online dating, I think people in general should

always post fairly recent pictures of themselves. If a picture, if you, if you look distinctly different, what, regardless of what it is, care color, glasses, weight, then six months ago, then don't post a picture of yourself six months ago. If you look generally the same, then fine. Use a picture that reflects you online dating. I think that's, that should be, that should happen all the time. But I also, in terms of like, if you're not ready to date, don't force it too. Right. So if you feel like you're so insecure about this, whether I think you should be or not, I think it's important for you to be confident in yourself and work on that before you go out there. And because whether you, I'm telling you, don't, don't talk it up.

You don't want to project it either onto your date that you're really insecure about something because people will pick up, I think, on insecurities. But I would challenge yourself to not let it bug you so much. And also, there's probably plenty of guys who are probably super into these 10 pounds that you've brought along. That's just, again, a personal preference. So what men are interested in and how you feel comfortable, and I've learned this with dating too, because with girlfriends I've had, they've had fluctuated in weight. And again, small degrees, five, 10 pounds is not necessarily a lot

of weight. And they preferred, they felt better at one weight. And I preferred like just physically another weight. Now, ultimately how they feel most comfortable is what they should do. They shouldn't like have a certain weight because of what I care about. My point is, is that what a guy is into and how he's attracted to you might be very different than what you feel most comfortable with. So to worry about what guys are into or whether they're, you might not, you have no idea. You know, like for all you know, if you polled a hundred guys, they might all prefer this Allison to what you prefer.

Ultimately it doesn't matter because it's what makes you most confident. So I guess what I'm saying is don't waste too much energy thinking about what guys are going to be into. Go on dates when you feel confident in yourself. Don't project your insecurities if you can control it. And yeah, post the most recent pictures of yourself on a dating app would be my two cents. No, that makes total sense. I think the goal is always to look better in person when you show up.

People are pleasantly surprised. Well, you must know your angles like, oh shit. Can I add something? Please. Yeah. So first of all, never wait for the perfect wait, the perfect situation to go out and do something like don't, don't put off your life and your love and even just mindless hooking up. Like don't put that off because you're waiting for your body to be a certain way. The other thing is, um, you're going to want to attract someone to you that doesn't value you based on your weight. Like that's not the person that I think is going to go the distance with you. So it's time for you to not value yourself

based on your weight. And I know we are up against so much. And I say this as someone who is carrying more weight than I normally do because of an injury. So I'm dealing with this on the regular. So I so, so, so identify with you, but we have to work really extra hard to not value ourself that way and really value like who you are, what you're bringing to the table. Like if you are a kind, fun, empathetic, exciting, ambitious, shy, inquisitive, whatever, whoever Alison is, that is, that is what will, will make the connection for you. And the weight is really inconsequential and also have your pictures look like. I think those are also great points. And just kind of like, I was having drinks last night with some friends. It was two of my female friends,

a buddy, and we didn't necessarily talk about weight, but we talked about dating because you brought up a point. We talked about effort and how sexy effort is. And the thing is like, you know, yes, it's important. I agree with Katie in terms of ultimately you want to date, especially a long lasting relationship. It's more than just a physical attraction in your way in, in your life through a long last, your, your weight's going to fluctuate, you know, especially if women start having kids or whatever, as we get older, all our metabolism slow down and things like that. But, you know, you brought up a point where like, I think, I think people, not men or women, we understand your weight's going to fluctuate, but like all I want when it comes to weight is like effort in terms of we all recognize that we want to try to attempt to look our best within the restrictions of our lives and the things that we have to do.

And so I think people like, I think when most people get frustrated about their partner, whether it's a, you know, how they're dressing. We talked with Brad last week about like giving up is it's just the effort to make it to control what you can control. And if you have an injury, fine, you might be, you know, you're on medication. Those are all things that you might not be able to control. But like just to know that it sounds like you you are mindful of it and you want to make an effort to to look good and because you feel good. And I think as we date, we appreciate that in our partners. And I think that's OK to have that effort to say like, well, I want to look good for you. So I'm going to do my best because, you know, no one wants to be in a relationship where people are like, I don't care what I look like anymore. And I just

want to give up. And if I gain weight, love me, you know? So I think, I think that's okay to acknowledge in a partner that you want to be with someone who takes the effort to, to look good for the other person, to make the effort, you know? And is that okay to say? Because I feel like both on men and women, it's not just guys saying this to women. You know, do women want to date a guy who's like, they get in a relationship, but it's his sweatpants and hands down their pants

and like, you know, gaining a bunch of weight and never work and being lazy. And, you know, no one wants that, but that's not you. You are mindful of it. You're making the effort. And there's some things that we can't control. Like we can't control other aspects of our lives and the time that we have at a time we don't have our injuries and medication. And I just want someone who wants to make the effort. Can I also recommend that you de-emphasize the weight for now? It's so, I mean, as someone who

has struggled with eating disorders and body image, can you try, since this is, it's impossible to say, it's so hard to say to someone to take away the importance of weight, but unfollow all the models and follow some body positive people and de-emphasize the number and maybe go buy some makeup or something that makes you really happy. Like I'm a big fan of like when I'm feeling a little bit less positive about the way I look. I go and get myself some new makeup. You know what I mean? Something that makes me feel good about the things I can work with right now.

Because the number isn't necessarily what matters. If you have 10 extra pounds on you, no one else will notice but you. Yeah. I always get a kick out of like, you know, women talking about weight or not wanting to discuss your weight. And as a guy, I don't care. I don't even know the difference. If you're, if you tell me like you're a hundred and 200 pounds, whatever, you look great. I, you know, I don't, it's just literally just a number

people have literally different bone densities and water weight. And like, like I can fluctuate eight pounds in a day, but you know, so like. And you're unique in that perspective, Nick, as I was listening to you, I was once broken up with because I gained weight. So, I mean, women do have this sort of decades of people caring. I get that. And I understand where she's coming from. And it's scary to gain 10 pounds. It's terrifying.

So I don't want to take away how scary this is to her. I'm just trying to help her de-emphasize the importance of the 10 pounds, if at all possible. And you're a unique there because you don't care. And you're saying, I prefer the 10 pounds, which is nice. I don't know. I don't know. I'm curious what men think out there. I don't know if I, am I that unique? I, I would argue, I know there's a lot of guys, especially like in LA where it's just a lot of like, you know, you know, there's a lot of people who are very weight conscious and women I know. And like they, you know, I joke when I, I had this one friend and I'm like, she talked about something about being skinny. And I said like, before I met you, I thought you were like really skinny. We were very playful. She's like, oh my God, thank you. Like a joke about like me calling

her skinny. I was flat, you know, this whole thing. And I generally don't think men are necessarily into the skinny look. I think I get the impression like women seem to be more into it than men. Again, I'm speaking in generalities. People just have different preferences is ultimately the answer. But I don't know if it's, I don't know if I'm in the minority. I think I'm just one group of preference. I mean, maybe the best takeaway is again, like as a guy, I can't relate or appreciate all the shit women have to deal with. But if you're worried about what we think,

Alison, don't worry about it because it's not that like, we honestly, I don't think guys notice that much. You certainly are way more in tune and more sensitive to it. So don't let it hold you back and try not to emphasize weight so much because we don't really care that much. I can't speak for all men, but you look great. And if you want to lose 10 pounds, lose 10 pounds as he makes you feel better, but you're not, don't do it for us. You do it for yourself. Just love yourself. Just love yourself wherever you're at. Well, thank you guys. This was super helpful. It was all really helpful advice and it's good. It's good to hear from you guys. I appreciate it. Awesome. All right. Well, have a great day. Thanks for calling in. Hi, Nadia. This is Nadia. Hey girl. Hey. Um, how can we help Nadia?

Um, I was listening to a podcast a couple of weeks ago with Liz, um, when you guys were talking about men in the workplace. And I thought it was a really interesting conversation because I am dealing with that kind of stuff here right now. So I'm from the UK, so I live in London. Super into this voice right now. We are worldwide, people. All right, so you're in the UK and you're dealing with this. Yeah, what are you dealing with?

So I, um, well, I worked for like an English football company. So kind of similar to what she kind of did, but, um, where it was a lot of kind of middle-aged men and had the,

um, experience to try and deal with that. So, um, I've always been like really, really, um, self-confident and I've never seen myself as not equal to men in any way

shape or form so I've got better experience or I have um you know more knowledge then that means I'm better for the role if a man is better or has more experience then that is all what it is um so this is the first company that I worked with that I really experienced that kind of difference between men and women. I was the only female on the senior team. And we had an incident anyway. So one of my bosses got fired for doing something. But after that, I got told that I was... Are you willing to be specific about what happened just to give a point of reference?

Yeah. willing to be specific about what happened just to give a point of reference yeah so we um he took me away to a meeting that i was apparently supposed to go to which i wasn't um and he more or less just tried it on with me and like tried to get into a hotel room and was like messaging me about inappropriate things um and he'd only been in the business about three weeks at that point so it was really really kind of uncomfortable um so I reported it because at the end of the day for me I didn't want anybody else to have to go through that or like I would never let any of my team go away with him so for my image I was like I couldn't leave him in the business more or less so I reported it um and then after that I got told that I was too friendly and I was too nice and I brought it on myself um yeah exactly so it was like and

realistically all I did was boy lunch and that was why I was too friendly so um it's really interesting though because I think the reason why I was called too friendly is because as a girl like I'm naturally a bit more friendly than they were. It doesn't mean that I'm inviting something. So, yeah, so absolutely ridiculous. Anyway, so I went through that for probably about seven months after that. I kind of experienced the backlash, like people wouldn't even like get into cars with me and stuff like that. And literally it was only me that was dealing with it and any other females that were in the business

no matter what position they were in they were also kind of getting comments about having kids um about anything you can think of and it's actually quite hilarious because I've never dealt with it before until I got into the industry where it seemed like the norm so so yeah it's just when I was listening to the podcast, it was really interesting to be like that because I've always been the person that's like, that doesn't even exist anymore. I don't see it anywhere.

It doesn't happen. And then, yeah, it happens to me. It happens. Yeah, exactly. I just want to say thank you very much for telling the story. It takes a lot of guts. And it takes a lot of guts for you to do what you did, because I think, I don't know if you have a specific question,

but I just, I think it's, you know, we hear these stories and the gasps from the ladies in the room with me, even myself, as much as we talk about equality in the workplace, we seem to be more mindful in 2019 than we did in, say, 1980. It just demonstrates just how much of a long way we have to go. And it still takes, you know, not to, an act of bravery

to put yourself out there or to do the right thing at the risk, unfortunately, of still, of putting a target on your back, I guess is the lack of a better way of saying it. And, you know, and I think the only way to combat this is to continue to have these conversations, because again, like not in any way to defend the actions of all these people or even the women, but like, I just think we're just not talking about it enough. Right. And so how can we get

to a place where if a guy does something as shitty as, you know, corners you at work or try to get your hotel room and you just do the right thing to put out there to not be the man hating liability at the probably because we're just not having these conversations enough. And we're not talking about it enough. And so, you know, I'm sorry you have to go through this. Because it does take some guts on your part to do that. Because it was funny. Because when you first told the story, I was immediately wondering what the fallout was. Because I don't think your story, unfortunately, is unique. I think every woman who does that runs the risk of having that scarlet letter, so to speak,

of now being kind of a corporate liability. It's like HR will do the right thing and let the guy go, but you've also, like, now everyone's afraid of you because it's just like, and that's unfortunate. It's shitty. I don't know. I don't know if you have anything to add to that. How do we remove the narrative that the woman was asking for it, which is basically what she's saying, right?

Like that's the scary part. Well, what is the, what happens here? Well, first of all, I think we continue to, like, I think you're in a great position to shepherd women into more positions of power. Like the, the more that you, the higher up on the ladder you go and you're aware of these things, the more you bring women with you. Right. And so a lot of times what happened in the past in, you know, corporate situations or whatever, is that there was only one spot for a woman. There was only one. And so women were kind of eating each other alive.

Like the token job that we're going to give one. Exactly. Exactly. And what we know from experience now is that we are, we do better when there's more of us. We do better when we're together and we do better when we, you know, when we make sure that we shepherd the careers of other women, because the more people that are at the table, the safer it's going to be for everyone. The other thing is I would be curious as to here is what is the like what is the HR policy at your company? Is it really laid out? This is this is what we do when this happens. Or is it all just like, understood? Yeah, it's kind of a little bit, the thing is that I actually officially kind of left

last week and I'm moving on to the after I'll mention the second, but it was, it was all over the place and because they didn't really care to deal with it because it was their culture. Right. I said something, it was a panic of how to deal with it because they didn't know. And that was even worse. And I think the most offensive thing about the whole situation was after it happened,

they didn't even bring any safeguarding for anybody else. It didn't happen again. And that's where, you know, I pride myself on having quite a strong personality so that I can kind of deal with it. But there's so many people

that would fall apart as soon as something like that happened. Yes, of course. All those people won't be the of deal with it. But there's so many people that would fall apart as soon as something like that happened. Yes, of course. And all those people won't be the people who report it. So I couldn't work for a business like that anymore. Like that is, yeah, it's not the right thing. Well, hopefully, I mean, you probably won't even get to find out, but you're definitely a trailblazer even for that company.

And I think in years to come, you will have made a dent in that company in a positive way. Right now, it doesn't feel like that because there's, you know, kind of a visit, you know, for every action, there's an equal positive reaction. Right now, there's a reaction to what you did as someone who's the first one to do that, but it's now happened. And in a way where I think over time, people will be more aware of it. So again, just feel good about doing that. And it's unfortunate that you had to leave,

but probably smart that you didn't, you know, continue to put yourself in that environment. And it sucks that you were, I mean, I can't imagine what it's like. I mean, again, I don't know, like, man, it sucks to be. I mean, because it's weird because I am a super flirtatious person. I am.

And I don't like ever worry about being flirtatious. And I've never been criticized for being flirtatious. Like, oh, Nick, don't be too, you asked for it. It's just like, I'm just, you know. Well, that's the thing. There are those lines where you can kind of, when you can joke around and you have, you can tell the difference when someone is joking and you're having a really good time because everyone is nice and people have that

comfortableness with each other but it becomes very different very quickly and you can tell when it's more sinister than a joke and that's where that line is and i think that's where a lot of people don't understand the line that probably if you don't get where that line is and you're going to go and kind of well that's the thing too it's um and there's the workplace is also a very different you know yeah like again it was funny because i was i didn't tell the story but i was recently at in a city i was doing a fitting and i just um turned my clothes and i said goodbye i met the the stylist and i like patted her on the shoulder and I was like,

Oh, thank you very much. And I left and I actually thought to myself, did I pattern too many times? Like I literally, seriously, it was like, I don't,

you know, like, was I, you know, like the hug, the awkward hug that, you know, like I'm,

I'm, you know, as a guy, I'm, I'm constantly be like, I literally thought about like, well, I'm sure it's fine,

but like, did I, it was like, Oh, thank you. You know, like, right. But in the workplace, I think it's, we need to, you know, in the world, I think we can, there's a balance of being flirtatious, but in the workplace, you, there's no place for it. It's about work. You know, there shouldn't, you wish we should all kind of tone down our jokes and our advances. And, you know, I,

down our jokes and our advances. And, you know, I, I remember joking, you know, like I had a, I had a gay boss one time and he would always like, when I was in my twenties and like, he'd be like, like, no, Ash looked that good in jeans. I remember like, I didn't care. I was just like, I thought it was funny. It was like, I guess complimenting you, but like, also that wasn't appropriate, you know, at the time. And so we can't, we shouldn't, none of us should do those things because it is, it is work. And I think it's okay to have a zero tolerance policy in the workplace because it's about work and it's different than flirtatious at a bar and things like that so and especially in spaces like where where nadia's working and where liz works where you know professional men's sports is kind of like the final frontier it It's a good old boys club for sure.

It really is. And it's the last sort of space that women are still figuring out how to work in and be a part of. And unfortunately, there are going to be growing pains when women get positions of power in that space. But I think it will only make it safer and better for everyone when it's safer and better for women. Yeah, for sure. Again, I think we'd have to continue the conversation. But good for you for being brave. Because also, I'm sure what

happened to you was not an isolated incident with that person, even. So, maybe you prevented someone else from getting harassed or assaulted or accosted or whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think the way he did it,

he knew what he was doing in a way. So, I think he definitely had before. So, yeah. Whether I was the way he did it, he knew what he was doing in a way. So I think he definitely had before. So yeah, whether I was the first or one along the line, I don't know. For sure. But I do hopefully, and I don't know how it is in the UK, I do sense that companies are making a conscious effort to be more aware and recognize and protect women who do come forward. So I hope that continues you know, I hope that

that continues to happen. So the women listening, if you are going through this situation don't feel like, you know, don't be worried. I mean, unfortunately I think we have to be sensitive and mindful and you need to think about it, you know, how you want to approach it. Unfortunately, maybe talk to someone that you trust first. You know, I don't get some counsel from people, you know, it's unfortunate. And HR is not always your friend. Right. Yeah.

That's important to know. Get to know the landscape of your company. And also the laws. So one of the episodes that I did on the Enthusiasm Enthusiast was about this website that went up called betterbrave.com. website that went up called betterbrave.com. And it basically helps people navigate sexual harassment in, and you can go to like where it's not in the UK yet, unfortunately, but you can go to, you know, California or Texas and find out what the laws are so that you can know, Oh, actually in this situation, if I go to HR, I'm going to hurt myself rather than going to a pro bono lawyer in the first place. So there are so many more resources out there.

That's a good point. Lawyer up. Brittany, how are you? I'm Nick. This is Katie. Hey, Brittany. Hi, guys. I'm good. What is your question or story you would like to share with us?

Oh, well, I've had some updates since I sent an email. Great. I will just start from the beginning. So I have a friend that I met through my ex. They were good friends. They worked together. Once we broke up, he and i became good friends he's friends with a lot of my mutual friends so on so on so we've been friends since like 2011 um when me and my ex split up in 2016

we started spending more time together and it was like totally cool just friends and then one night we ended up hooking up okay so we have been on this path of us pretty much hooking up since 2016 it's like three and we will go through these phases where we spend a lot of time together and we're not necessarily hooking up all the time and it's like sleepovers and dinners and I'm totally cool with us just hooking up. But I get really confused because he makes comments a lot where he says, we're going to fall in love. And I have no idea what that means. And I will ask him, I'm like, why are you saying that? How old are you?

But he won't answer me. Brittany, how old are you? What was that? How old are you? I'm about to be 28. How old is he? I'm about to be 28. How old is he? 29. Okay.

Okay. So you're adults. Wait, I want to hear the answer. Yeah. When he says we're going to fall in love and you say, why do you say that? What does he say? He ignores me. He has an answer.

He usually just kisses me and then like we just keep on keeping on. In your perfect situation, Brittany, if you're like in six months, this is where I'm going to be at either with or without him. What's your dream scenario? With or without him? I mean, I just want to figure out what we're doing, I guess. No, more than figuring out, what's your dream scenario? No, more than figuring out what's your, what's your dream scenario?

If we could, if he could stop fucking around and like be committed, I would like that. All right. So I, yes, I feel, I agree with you. Right. I think that's what you want. You're not okay with your current relationship. I think step one, admit to yourself and anyone who asks, including him, that you're not okay with the current situation and you haven't been okay with what you guys have been doing for the past three years. Because that's kind of – you should feel okay with saying that. Why you're so passive about it and you're so afraid to like not be okay with something that you're entitled to not be okay with is I think step one. Okay. Hold yourself more accountable and then therefore make him more accountable. And you're just going to have to be okay and less afraid of the fact that he's not your guy.

He's probably not. But I will say in defense to him, not that I'm trying to defend him, but you, again, you have to hold yourself accountable to hold him accountable. It's that whole like thing, you give him an inch, he'll take a foot. You're like, you know, you're not, he's getting away with it and you're letting him. And until you stop letting him,

he's not going to say shit. And for this whole like, we're going to fall in love someday, I don't know what he really means. It might just be a line to like bide his time. But like you haven't made him commit and therefore he's not going to commit and the chances are there's a reason why he's not committing because he wants some freedom whatever that means i'm not implying that maybe he's doing some shit

but he's probably doing some shit yeah well here's the thing i know him like okay so a little bit more on the backstory like we've both casually dated other people throughout this entire time. Fine. So that's fine, right? I do my thing, he does his thing. If you want to, sure. Maybe it is just like a good arrangement, but last week he had a conversation with my best friend.

I don't even really know how the topic came about, but he said something along the lines of, I think she has feelings for me. And she said, was it mutual? And he said, well, yeah. But then he was like like let's change the subject yeah but to be honest I'm going to be direct here and I apologize if it sounds

harsh but you guys aren't 18 and 19 you're 29 and 28 you're like your guys are acting like a couple of teenagers a lot of he said she said talking to friends and blah blah blah talking around it thank you Rochelle like you're an adult and you don't, you know, you act like an adult, expect him to be an adult.

And at some point just be like, do you want to make this a thing or not? Because nothing's going to change unless you like nip it in the bud, so to speak. And you start setting first expectations for what you want and sort of admitting to yourself, what do I want from this situation? And then when you figure that out, because I think we have, then you start holding him accountable to that.

And if he doesn't meet up to those expectations, you let it go. Because all you're doing right now is having someone around to bide your time because the alternative is you maybe being bored for a little bit while you find someone else. Right. And you're afraid of being bored. So, you know, maybe he's your guy, but right now you have to figure out whether he is. And if, is he doing this because you're letting him get away with it or he's just doesn't want to commit to you. And I honestly don't know the answer to that because you haven't, you haven't held yourself

or him accountable for what you want to get out of this. True. No, that's right. I mean, I need to, I need to just, I guess I've been scared to ask because I don't want to get out of this. True. No, that's right. I mean, I need to, I need to just, I guess I've been scared to ask because I don't want to ruin our friendship and I don't want it to be one of those things where I ask. You know what? And then all the good parts of us being friends

is just gone. That's honest and good for you to admit that, but you have to be afraid to lose them. And also your friendship has changed. True. It's changed. It's gone through a dynamic. It's,

your friendship is also has like a whole part of it that's now based on hooking up right so you know I I had almost an exact similar situation where I started dating I started hanging out with an ex's friend and then we started hooking up and then and we we were best friends, quote unquote. And I was always terrified to say, because he would say very similar things. He would say things like, oh, we shouldn't do this because I love you so much. And we really shouldn't do this anymore. And all I could hear was, I love you so much.

And I was ignoring the part that was saying, we really shouldn't do this. Because I was so much. And I was ignoring the part that was saying, we really shouldn't do this. Because I was so terrified. I was so terrified to say, hey, this is what I really want from you. And this is what I really need. And because I knew in my heart, he was not going to give that to me. Because if he had wanted to give that to me,

he just would have. Yeah. Also too, there's a chance he might not be your guy. Yeah. And at this point in your life, like you're not, again, you're not 18. So like when you're 18, you don't worry about who's your guy. You're just like figuring it all out, but you're not that age. And it's, you're at the age where maybe you want to maybe meet your person.

And chances are, if he's not your person, you won't be friends. Your person won't be okay with this guy being around. So, you know, don't be afraid about losing the friendship if he's not your guy. Because, like, someone else will be your best friend. That's true. That's a good point. Yeah. And a real friend won't do this to you. Exactly.

Sure, but at the same time, I think she needs the help. Like, I think it's on her, too. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, hold yourself to a high standard and have real friends. And if it's a relationship, yeah, don't be afraid to define a relationship in your own terms. We're just hooking up. We're just doing this.

But it doesn't sound like that's what she wants. So have good friends, have a boyfriend, have a hookup, but it's muddled to her. Yes. Yeah.

Hopefully that was helpful. Yeah, that actually was super helpful. All right. Well, thank you very much, Brittany. Good luck. Good luck, Brittany. Thanks, guys.

All right, you're awesome. Hi, how are you? Hi. Good, how are you? I'm Brittany. Good luck. Good luck, Brittany. You're going to be great. Thanks, guys. All right. You're awesome. Hi, how are you? Hi. Good. How are you? I'm good. I'm Nick. This is Katie. Hi, how are you? What is your name? I'm Shelby.

How can we help? All right. So I travel 100% of the time for my job. And I go around and help hotels. So my assignments range anywhere from two weeks to two months. And I only get home about once every two months and I'm only home for about 48 hours, sometimes even less. So this follows, I love my job. It makes dating obviously extremely difficult because the guys that like are okay with my lifestyle, I usually, the guys that are just looking for like a one night stand type of thing. And the guys that are like not okay with my lifestyle are usually the ones that like would

be better for dating. But once they get past like one visit after going back to see the guy, they're usually like, when can I see you next? And I'm like, Oh, I don't know. We'll have to see how my schedule plays out. And then they're like, okay, I'm done with this. So I'm not going to give up my, this is my dream job. I'm not giving it up for dating.

But like, do you have any advice for dating in my situation? Or do I just have to own this act and I'm going to have to be single as long as I'm doing this? Well, I don't think it has to be that extreme in terms of being single. But the reality is, I mean, if you're career-driven, which is great, and if this is your dream job, that's amazing. Most people aren't lucky enough to find or have ever get a dream job. Yeah. And sometimes great things come with sacrifice. Yeah, for sure.

And I think when it comes to your dating life, you are just going to have to be more patient than the average person. And I think that's okay. I think a couple things that come to mind, you certainly can run the risk of settling in a relationship because you might get discouraged at time with your dating life or feel bouts of loneliness or meeting the wrong guy. And I think you'll just have to challenge yourself to stick to your guns in terms of what you really want. And it may just take an exceptionally unique person who is your person.

And maybe, again, being redundant, and sometimes I said this last week on the podcast, listen, we're only going to find one person who hopefully our relationships don't work out. So that should by definition be unique and just might be harder for you to find. And so just be patient, but don't get discouraged because, you know, regardless if it's your, your job that you travel a hundred percent of the time, I don't travel a hundred percent of the time and I still haven't found my person. So like, you know, so there you go. and I still haven't found my person. So like, you know, um, so there you go. Um, so I, you know,

there's no right or wrong answer, right? I can't sit there and tell you, you should quit your job. Other people might prioritize careers less and that's also okay. Right. Some people aren't as career driven. That's fine. You know? Um, but I, I, if you are career driven, I think that's great. I don't think you should give that up. Um, you know, I don't know how old you are, how old are you seem young enough? Um, about 27. 27. So you're young, you have plenty of time. Like you don't need to press the panic button.

Yeah. Um, plenty of guys out there. There's very few dream jobs out there. You don't want to, um, quit your dream job for some guy you end up getting sick of in a year anyways. Uh, you know, so I don't know if Katie have anything to add, but, um, yeah, be patient and congratulations for finding your dream job. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I'm so proud of you. First of all, that's really exciting. I think you need a real adult. Like you need a person who has their own stuff that's going on that is not sitting around like obsessing and waiting for you to come back. So you need, you need a guy with that either is very career

driven himself or maybe, you know, already has a family or something like that, like that, that, that motivates him so that when you meet up and you are together, you're really loving, valuing and appreciating your time together because you're two adults who decided to spend time together rather than two people clinging to a life raft, you know, like as like, but I do want to clarify, I don't want to necessarily generalize as adults because there are adults out there and it's okay. Who spending a lot of time with each other is a priority. And that's also okay. It's just personal preference. Yeah. Right. But like, you know, you just have to find someone who has it's again, it's whether like, do we,

what's the right amount of sex to have? What's the right amount of time to spend? That's all personal preference. And men and women all, you just have to find someone who it aligns with you. And you just have to be conscious and cognizant of not trying to force it with people who don't have the same priorities as you. And you have to be okay with saying, listen, you're great and you're nice, but, and we have good chemistry, but this isn't going to be okay with saying, listen, you're great and you're nice, but, and we have good chemistry, but this isn't going to work because this is a prior, like my job is a priority to me. And I understand that I can't give you what you need and you have to be mindful of not wasting time with guys that just aren't fitting into your life.

Right. And also I think the guy that's like super excited for you about what you do and like supportive of you, because there are a lot of men who in theory want a strong, motivated, powerful woman. And then when it comes down to it, it's like, career-conscious woman is that sometimes her attention is going to be diverted. And are they going to be cool with having her attention diverted? You know what I mean? So like Nick said, it's a particular personality. And so it's like, I think some of that, you'll be able to suss out really early on whether they really are cool with it. Awesome. Well, again, I just

want to reiterate, you have your dream job. You should be very excited. Freeze your eggs. You're only 27. No, I'm saying if I, most women who are 40, who did not do that and have a job where they make great money and they don't think about it when they're in their 20s. And I want you to be able to hit the gas on your job as long as you want and do this as long as you want. And then I want you to have the option when you're ready and not not feel so. So just putting it out there. Only if you want kids. Only if you want kids. And if you're a person who is avowed that you don't want kids, then, you know, live your life, girl. Awesome. Well, Katie, I do want to thank you for coming.

I think this has been a lot of fun, hopefully enlightening. I do have one more question about playing devil's advocate. I know prior to this podcast, you made a comment about guys playing devil's advocate. I know prior to this podcast, you made a comment about guys playing devil's advocate. I do it a lot. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. I do sometimes think in relationships, I can play devil's advocate to a fault. But you seem to have a strong opinion about that. What is it? I'm curious. Especially when it comes to someone sharing their experience or something that is particular to their experience. I find that it's really challenging when guys, especially play devil's advocate, because it's so hard to get guys on our team in the first place, like to get to a place like, you know, we've, we've had conversations

now where I feel like, um, we understand each other a little bit more. Right. And so I, and some of that had to happen through like sharing sharing personal stuff sharing experiences sharing points of view so it's like oh we worked so hard to like get on the same page and playing devil's advocate is always about well I really agree with you but I want to argue this point that disagrees with you just to prove the point. So are you talking about, well, so like I get, I totally get it when it's especially a personal experience. Like this happened, this is how I feel about it. This happened to me and it, and I definitely could work on this, especially in relationships where if my goal is to play devil's advocate, because I'm trying to understand or help, I could probably go about it in a better way. Yeah. Especially,

and if I'm not in a relationship, it's just dating. I could totally recognize how playing devil's advocate can be counterproductive, especially someone sharing a personal experience. What about someone just talking about things in generalities about, I believe this, or I think this, or just having a discussion about a topic. And then someone, I guess, cause sometimes it's not necessarily for me playing devil's advocate. It's me saying, I don't, I honestly don't know. I'm trying to understand. And I see some of your points, but I don't know if I see others. Here's another way to look at it. What is your point of view on this? Right. You know, and that's, will be my motivation for quote unquote, playing devil's advocate, because there are, you know, that I sometimes get frustrated

with people's unwillingness to consider the other side, whatever you think of, because I think, especially nowadays, we are all like stuck in our lanes where we become very decisive, divisive, whatever, and our beliefs, and we have stopped listening to the other side.

And so we're going down, we're just, we're getting further away from each other rather than closer together. And whether it's devil advocacy or what, I just feel like, again, when I'm playing devil's advocate, I'm trying to learn. I maybe could go about it a different way, but I definitely appreciate if someone's personal story, like if a girlfriend's like,

this happened to me at work or whatever, whatever the story is, maybe it's nothing like super intense, but just, I could be a better listener probably. Just be like, I'll just shut up and listen, you know, tell me just vent. But what do you think about like in general? Well, I think there's, I think there's a difference in humility when you come to someone and say, I really don't understand X, Y, Z. Will you help me? There's a humility in that, right? There's a humbleness in saying, I don't really have all the answers and I don't understand all the points of view, but I'm willing to learn and I'm willing to listen. As a feminist, are you okay with saying, well, listen, I have my conservative points of view. Maybe it's faith-based or whatever it is, but I definitely believe in the equality of women.

And, you know, like having openness and conversations about sex are in the workplace that we've talked about and support all that. But there's maybe things about, you know, other things that they're not there yet. Right. Is that okay? Are we still interested in including those people in these conversations about equality? Being inclusive means bringing people in. And we're not going to always agree.

Like we're not going to be in the same place, but we can key into different things. So like being sex positive is a really easy way for you to key into feminism because it just comes so naturally to you. And also, even though your mom is conservative, Phyllis is conservative, their, their life explained feminism. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's kind of why I'm interested in it because of,

and that's kind of general concept I hope to have in this episode is it's not so much the word feminism or whatever, but like but like again the equality of bringing people in and the like some of the tenants that come with feminism like i would have we don't get bogged down in every little detail of it right and i would have loved for your mom to have felt like she had more choices but i would never shame her for the choices she made and i would celebrate the choices she made you know what i mean i think You could be a housewife and a feminist all at the same time. And I am. I am those things.

Stay-at-home mom, you know? Absolutely. There is space for all of that. Cool. Yeah. Well, thank you so much again. I think this was a fun episode. I hope the people who are still listening to it have listened along.

I don't know. I'm really kind of like nervous about like what the response will be. We'd love your feedback. I hope to have more interesting episodes and conversations like this. So Katie, thank you so much for being a part of it. I know we didn't talk about The Bachelor today. Quite honestly, we filmed this before the episode. I didn't get an early copy.

Colton's still finding love. We'll dive back into it, I'm sure, next week. But again, thank you so much. Thanks, guys, for listening. Don't forget to rate us, sending your questions. Oh, and you can be a bachelor fan and a feminist. Great. Also. Yeah. Right. Yes. Natural habits, essential oils, people, nh oils.com 20% off, make it natural. I won't bog you down with the ad, but if you want to feel better, help with your anxiety, headaches, mental, emotional, and physical well-being.

Essential oils has been helpful for me. Try it out. Naturalhabits.com or actually naturalhabits on Instagram, nh oils.com. Thanks for listening guys. See you next week. Thanks Nick. All right. Bye-bye.