The Viall Files - E708 Ask Nick - Ghosted At 5 Months Pregnant

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Ask Nick Edition! We’re back to answer your burning questions about the world of dating and relationships. We start off with a little game, where we introduce Nick to new dating terms. Then we get to our callers…  Our first caller is wondering if she should search for her baby’s dad. After he ghosted her at 5 months pregnant, moved to Miami and started a new family, should she include him in her daughter’s life? Our second caller started dating her boss, and found out he cheated on her through his apple watch. She still works with him and is unable to see him for who he truly is. Our final caller just found out her husband of 16 years cheated on her… for the second time. They share a family with kids, and she wants to help him seek therapy. “Stop being so afraid to lose him” Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: https://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice, send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line!  To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: BetterHelp - Become your own soulmate, whether you’re looking for one or not. Visit https://www.BetterHelp.com/VIALL today to get 10% off your first month. Ouai - Give your hair a glow-up with OUAI. Go to https://www.theouai.com and use promo code VIALL for 15% off any product.  Zoa - Find out where you can find it at https://www.ZOAEnergy.com and fine retailers like Amazon, 7-Eleven, Costco, Circle K and more. Hero Bread - Don’t give up being a bread head. Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to https://www.hero.co and use code VIALL at checkout.  Vessi Footwear - Transform your new year adventure with Vessi. Visit https://www.vessi.com/VIALL for footwear that will gear you up the whole year around and get 15% off your first order Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @alison.vandam @dereklanerussell @justinkaphillips @leahgsilberstein

what's going on everybody welcome back to another exciting episode of the vile files ask nick edition i am your host, Nick. Welcome. Joined by the household, we got Allie. We got sweet boy Justin. And we got Leia in the house today. How's everyone doing? Anything interesting, fun, exciting? What is that shirt you're wearing, Leia?

Send songs. It's like a Spotify Mad Happy. Oh, Mad Happy made that? Yeah. I stole it from my friend. It's a nice sweatshirt. And I wear it all the time. Is it a playoff of the saying, like, send nudes? it must be yeah i like that see that's the type of creativity we need

with our merch send nudes yeah what ally what i literally sent you multiple designs and like 16 ideas this morning that i haven't heard back from but yes let's be more creative i haven't heard back from, but yes, let's be more creative. I haven't gotten to it yet, but that's pretty clever. You said, listen, I love your work, Allie. This is not the time to critique your work. Allie sent me a list that says blocked 11. It was a list of 20. You picked number 11. You listed words.

How's it going? Number three. For our line, for our designs. Ralph Lauren designs no i get it but that's not the same as send songs not the dior um i love you i love you okay oh well we have an amazing episode today we got some great callers is searching for my baby dad baby baby's dad. It's a baby daddy. Nailed it. What? We had a whole team meeting before we did this intro.

If you couldn't tell. All right. Is searching for my baby's dad worth it? My boss cheated on me. My husband of 16 years cheated on me and I don't want to lose him. Leah, you read those off like we're playing a game of like Cards Against Humanity and those are your options to pick from. If those were your three options

to pick from, what do you choose? Which situation would you rather not be in? My boss cheating on me is not a situation I'd want to be in. Yeah, but part of me is like that's the juiciest one. Yeah. For sure. That's your life and your career. How do you handle that? Yeah. Tough tough that's why

i wouldn't want to be a part of it no that's like a double whammy yeah it's a juicy one yeah get excited also this week just a little uh housekeeping uh we got our reality recap tomorrow love is blinds back uh it dropped on valentine's day everything bravo vpr uh bachelor traders and everything Bravo, VPR, Bachelor, Traitors, and anything else that might surprise us. And then on Thursday, the one and only Natalie Joy returns to the Vile Files after giving birth to a stunning baby, I might say. I'm more excited about that episode than I've ever been. And we'll be talking a little bit, I guess.

It sounds cheesy, but birth story? I don't know. Like everything, just the whole production of giving birth. I love birth stories. You do? talking a little bit i guess it sounds cheesy but birth story i don't know like everything just are the whole production of giving birth i love birth stories you do i've been watching them since middle school i think they're fascinating what is the most fascinating thing about that so just so nally and i know like what's what justin will be like just the recovery process like i feel like a lot of people don't shed light onto like what it really is yeah and i feel like it's it's not just like you give the birth and you're good you know for sure i've learned a lot that's for

sure uh well like respect a woman i don't know i love mothers so the whole delivery process was really something they don't really we well you know what we'll save it i don't want to take anything away from you know this is really natalie's experience my experience as well but everything that i've experienced was through what natalie's experience my experience as well but everything that i've experienced was through what natalie experienced and i don't want to give anything away anyways that's this thursday so be sure to check that out um we'll probably cry so if you feel like uh tapping into those emotions join us this thursday on going deeper wait that's a good merch idea we'll probably cry that's our new brand name? We can't

do blocked. We have to do we'll probably cry. I don't know what you mean by brand name. The whole list I sent you. I know you sent me a list of words. Alright, well, what's next? Since this is Ask Nick and we talk about love and dating and all those fun things, my 24-year-old

brother-in-law the other day told me about a term that I had never heard of, and he made fun of me for not knowing. So I'm curious to know if the household or if people out there listening have ever experienced any of these or if they know about them, if they're stupid, if they're cool, what we think. The one that he told me about was simping. How did that come up? We were just talking about dating. He actually heard me on the Ask Nick episode

where I was talking about my husband, who's his brother. Oh. And he was like, I can't believe that you talked about that on there. Was he mad at you? He was just like, I can't believe you told that story.

I was like, the point of me telling that story was to say that I think that people who cheat can redeem themselves. It depends on how they act afterwards. I don't think Tom Sandoval did a good job of it. We'll see what happens with Kylie and Avon, but that was my point. And so he was making fun of me. He wasn't mad, but yeah, he told me about simping and he was making fun of me for not knowing what it was. Which is basically, can I guess, like obsessing over someone?

It's like one person in the relationship is the one who puts in all the effort and is the simp. Is that intentional or is that just something that outsiders observe about the relationship or both? Like does someone go into a relationship being like, I'm so into being a simp? Is that a thing? I feel like I've heard it more so maybe not in established relationships, but with a crush or someone new or even a celebrity like i have girlfriends will be like oh i'm simping so hard or like i simp for him so hard so it's like it's a personal awareness is that a new name for crush or but it's more like i would do anything for them like kissing up to them to me it's almost

more of a power dynamic than a crush, because I think a crush could go both ways. But if you're simping for someone, it's like you're kissing up to them. What's the urban dictionary of simping? What's the definition? A simp is someone who sucks up, schmoozes, or otherwise fawns over another person, typically a person they're interested in. Okay.

I kind of like it. It's short for simpleton, which is like a foolish or stupid person. Never mind. There you go. I hate it. I feel foolish and stupid for them. Okay. It wouldn't make sense to say we're simping over Travis and Taylor, right?

No. Because we'd have to want... No. You have to actively want to do something for them. Because it's like I am physically simping. I am a simp. It's different from shipping, which I think is like that's for someone else. Like I'm shipping them.

I don't think we'd be simping them. But are we like kissing up? I feel like it's a much more like a singular thing. Can you simp a couple? Is it ever healthy to be a simp? Sometimes it's an aesthetic. Like some people want to be a simp for like their celebrity crush, or sometimes you can be really sad about not like receiving love from someone you have a crush on. Understanding what a simp is, I would find it to be a turnoff to have someone simp for me. I don't,

I'm not. Well, and some people want that. So that's where, like Allie said, it's a power dynamic. I feel like it depends on how hard you're simping. I think it could be very powerful for a woman, for example, to show that they're interested in a man and be the one to make the moves.

That's not simping though, is it? Like, I feel like simping would be like, I would, you know, it would like allowing someone to, you know, our come kink from last week. You know, you'd be so into this person. You're just like, yeah, come kink me all day or whatever it was, or allowing someone to throw mud on you because they got they got off on it or something. Because I think the connotation of it and kind of the fine print of being a simp is it comes down to that power dynamic.

Whoever is the simp is potentially like weaker or more submissive. So it's yeah, it's like you kind of you're willing to kind of put up with whatever they're able to give you because you're so infatuated with them. Okay. Interesting. Simping. What else we got? I know last week we talked about beige moms. So this week, let's talk about beige flags. So another viral dating term that people have coined is beige flag. I'm assuming that's somewhere between... Why not a yellow flag? I'm assuming that's somewhere between a green and a red flag.

Yellow flag would have made more sense. I do see this all over TikTok. Do the beige moms make up beige flags because of their obsession with beige? I think everyone's just obsessed with beige these days. So beige flag would be like a pet peeve or an ick not an ick why is it not an ick an ick is more of a turn off something that you're done a beige flag is a quirky trait that isn't necessarily good nor bad okay and a red flag is what A red flag would be something that that person does that's... But isn't a red...

I think a red flag is something that's like a non-negotiable. Oh, that's a red flag. I don't know if I can date them because of this behavior. I may come to find that what I thought was a red flag, more of a beige. There you go. Yeah. Or green. But to me, an ick is an assumption of someone like, you know,

an ick would be like, you know, like Travis Kelsey yelling at his coach or no, Travis Kelsey yelling Viva Las Vegas. Huge ick. Oh, why was that an ick? That was such an ick. But icks are subjective. Yes. Icks are subjective. And I think red flags and deal breakers are different. Red flags to me are like in the mountaintop and you might need multiple for it to be a deal breaker. Because to me, there's a difference between a potential red flag and a beige flag. Okay. So Travis Kelsey pushing and yelling at his coach.

Potential. Well, potential red flag, because let's not like, I've seen a lot of discourse and boy, we really, I feel like the internet was triggered because obviously this is the first, like any type of criticism Travis has gotten since dating Taylor. But let's not forget this was during a football game, you know, during the most intense football game of the year. This wasn't Travis and Taylor walking down the promenade and someone like skipping in front of Taylor and Travis in line to getting an ice cream cone. And then he lost his shit. He was competing in a football game and people acting like Travis was doing this like in public is it's not the same thing. So I think it's maybe a potential

red flag because then the question is, is this football isolated and football related, or is that same type of aggression carry over into the real world and that's why it's a potential red flag. We just don't know if it is an actual red flag. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's fair. And I think the Viva Las Vegas is a potential ick.

Yes. Icks and red flags different. Because it's like anyone is allowed to say Viva Las Vegas, right? But the way that he did it and it was, I agree with you, Allie. It was to me... That's subjectivegas right the way that he did it and it was i agree with you ali it was to me i that's subjective but for me it wasn't an issue i was like pop-off gang oh i thought i i got a little bit of a nick what about it just the way that okay this was my take on it the person who was interviewing them didn't really give travis the mic okay and travis kind of just i'm gonna do this now and then he did the whole i mean also he was really excited he's allowed to be he just won the

super bowl i love travis and taylor big fan i ship them but i just the way that he did it and then he yeah i'm still confused what the difference between a beige flag is and a and a red flag or an ick let's do some examples does anybody have any beige flags about themselves or a significant other they want to discuss like all right i picked my nose what is that red that's an i saw i read an article about nose picking and potential links to um alzheimer whoa what how because you're sticking your finger apparently like yeah i don't know uh apparently you might be like inserting certain type of bacteria that will it was like maybe linked you've never picked your nose picking your nose

it's just like they're not using a tissue well i mean if the tissue is not available to me i guess it depends where you are when you're picking your nose. Are you in the comfort of your bathroom? Are you in your car? Because that's a... A lot of people choose to pick their nose in their car, and I see it every time. I will see it.

I've done it. It's been done. Yeah. I'm not proud of it. Yeah. This is me being vulnerable. Do you flick it out the window? Yeah.

That's gross. Yeah. Because to me, like, an ick is not like a you know like me like picking my nose like i don't think that speaks to my character no does a beige flag have is is that character related or not character related it's a quirky trait yeah i don't know if your nose is me picking my nose a quirky trait i'm just quirky it's like nick did you just pick your nose like yeah just something cute about me beige flags are supposed to be more unique and like niche i'll give you an example of something that danny does that i would consider a beige flag a beige flag if he opens the fridge to take something out he'll leave the refrigerator open until he's ready

to put that thing back i've done that i do. I would consider that a beige flag because to me, it's like I open my refrigerator, I pick my thing out, I close it, I use my ketchup, and then I open it again and I put the ketchup back. He'll leave the fridge wide open and the freezer

and he'll do his thing. Time goes by and I'm standing there and I'm just like, the fridge is still open. That's a beige flag. And why, are we just, do we as a society just

have too much time in our hands probably no it's just that we were doing just fine before we needed to come up with a term like beige flags because we just had annoying available to us for the longest time we recoined the term annoying to beige flags yeah that's you know i think tiktok overall tiktok has created the ability for like the world to feel a lot smaller and people are like oh wow like guess we all had the same childhood or i guess i'm not that unique or like but you're in reverse you're also finding out that things are not normal and you're doing these things that no one else is doing so i just think it's become this platform to kind of have these like polarizing takes or just like realizations.

But I did have an ex who would, I mean, he was like working crazy hours at a hospital. So I guess he like needed to be refreshed and sleep. But he would make a cup of coffee the night before, bring it upstairs, leave it on his bedside table. So it was just like lukewarm. And then his alarm would go off in the morning. And he would lean over, drink the lukewarm coffee, go back to bed. And then his second alarm would go off. And by the time the second alarm had gone off, the coffee had somewhat kicked in. And then he was ready to start his day. That's kind of smart, honestly.

I would be shocked to learn that the science backs it up. I get where his logic, you all get his logic, but I'm guessing the science behind putting caffeine in your body and then going back to sleep. putting caffeine in your body and then going back to sleep, like if he's actually feeling, waking up, feeling refreshed, I think it's all psychological. And I'd be curious what the science says, you know, what's actually happening when you are waking up at six in the morning, drinking a half a cup of coffee and going back to bed. Like how long caffeine takes to get in? I don't know, but I'm curious about that science because i i would i would bet that the science doesn't back up what he's actually doing and that any effects he's feeling is all psychosomatic psychosomatic or yeah this dot com says scientists suspect that drinking coffee

before a nap which essentially this is because it's not that long of time yeah may boost energy levels as sleep helps your body get rid of adenosine. Okay, so I'm wrong. Caffeine has to compete with less adenosine for the receptors in your brain. Okay, so I'll go fuck myself. There we go. Nick, what are your beige flags? Apparently nose picking.

No? No, that's it. That's just a Nick. It's too normal to be a beige flag. Yeah, I wouldn't say that's a beige flag. No, Nick's beige flag. Let me just, I have plenty. One, he always gets two bags of chips

when he goes to Mendocino Farms, but he never eats both of them. He only eats one. That's not true. I almost always eat both of them. You save the other for later? Of course you never see me eat both because you've never gone to lunch with me.

And if I eat both, I don't bring back one. I have ordered you lunch and the chips have sat I eat both, I don't bring back one. I have ordered you lunch and the chips have sat on the table until I put them in the basket. What else? And then they stay in the basket. Tell me more about me, Allie. What else we got?

You never close cabinets. That's true. Yep. Anything that goes in Nick's backseat of his car will stay there for years. Also true. Although I did take the gifts I brought home yesterday

already out of my car. Although I did leave the 1942 in there that I forgot. It was a clean backseat too. So maybe that ick is gone or that flag is gone. No, there's cough drops that have been there for a good four months. There you go. Are they all congealed into one? No, I don't think so.

Maybe. I don't know. They're probably not good. What else, Allie? I mean, I do think it's odd that you kept an entire cooler full of beer from your anniversary party in your backyard for like eight months. Not deliberately. Are you a hoarder?

I'm the opposite of a hoarder. I'll throw anything away. Yeah. That's how my dad is. Yeah. That's a great flag. If I haven't used it in any like short period, toss it. I'm way more wasteful than I'm a hoarder.

Way more wasteful. I think being able to get rid of things is a green flag. Yeah. I agree. Anyway, this is fun. We have a great episode for you. I think maybe it's time to get to our callers. Don't forget to send in those questions at AskNickAtTheVileFiles.com for all things Ask Nick, texting office hours,

mediation, you know the drill. We'll see you again tomorrow for Reality Recap. And don't forget Birth Story on Thursday. Alright, let's get to our call. Question time with Nick. Let's ask Nick your sexy questions. How's it going? Hi, I'm Mavis.

I'm 36 years old, and I'm wondering if searching for my baby's dad is worth it. Okay. Tell us more about baby daddy. When you say searching, I'm assuming you know who he is or yes yes i yes i do know who he is um was my boyfriend uh up until around i don't know seven months i was seven months pregnant and then he um ghosted me, which I hate that term, but it's actually true. He really did ghost me. You really got ghosted.

This is an ultimate ghost. Well, and I'm so sorry. This is the worst possible type of ghost. And I say this as someone who long, long time ago was ghosted by my then girlfriend. Like one day we were boyfriend and girlfriend and the next day she wasn't returning my calls and uh that was devastating for me i mean we ended up getting back together because you know we were toxic and i was young but um it was truly devastating so like i have like a real a personal feeling for like the casual

daters who will say that the guy or girl that they met online that they've never met ghosted them uh and i'm like you have no fucking clue what ghosting is um and you might be the truest person in the world who uh truly knows what it means to be ghosted so again so sorry but anyway so you're seven months pregnant. And then one day this this motherfucker just leaves. Like, how did this ghosting come to be? How was things leading up to it? Like, what was going on here? Because this this seems nuts.

Things were not great. So I'm not going to say like, oh, things are perfect. And then the next day, nothing. That's definitely not the case. Things were rocky. And that is partially because I kept giving him chances. We had an ultrasound when I was a couple months pregnant. And he ended up leaving.

It was a long distance relationship as well. And he had promised probably a million times that he would move to the city that I live in. He had promised probably a million times that he would move to the city that I live in. And then when we went on vacation, when I was five months pregnant, things were completely different. He was completely different. He was like distant and cold and sort of like not communicative. It was like night and day difference from him. And I'm like, what is going on? And then I have actually never seen him since we left from

that trip. So we haven't seen him in person since you were five months pregnant. Yeah. Yep. So you left, you were saying you left, you departed from the trip. Yep. And he, he went to work, he traveled for work a lot. So he left and went to work and i left and came home and um yeah i i i the communication really dwindled after that trip like he still would respond to my texts uh we talked on the phone a few times but much less and then i would say when i was about seven months pregnant is when it stopped altogether so and not just stopped but like he he blocked me on everything you could imagine like venmo even i mean everything holy shit okay okay first of all it's not okay what he did second of all but my question is this trip like how bad

was it like it was so bad it was it was so. Like he paid for the whole trip. You know, it was like, it was a baby moon basically. And, um, I was really excited about it. We met in Mexico originally. Uh, so it was kind of fun. Like, you know, we're coming together, uh, in the place where we met and I was excited about it. And up until we went to Mexico, he was wonderful. Like really, we had turned a corner. We were looking into therapists. We're going to go to therapy together. We had a therapist picked out. Things were really good. And then Mexico was so bad. Like, I can't even describe it. Sometimes I think about it and it like makes me feel like. Can you give us an example? I mean, like what was going on? I mean, because like,

Can you give us an example? I mean, like, what was going on? I mean, because like I'm like, was I like in the Twilight Zone? Like he would just be completely silent or be on his phone, which was not normal for us. We normally kind of set our phones aside when we were together. So are you saying like up into this point, you had a long distance relationship, but relatively fine. And then you guys decided to do this baby moon trip around five months you met up in mexico is that accurate or you went together you met up in mexico you got to mexico and he was bizarrely different distant on his phone disconnected disinterested felt like seemed inconvenienced by your presence And okay, so that okay. Yes, and that's and and from your point of view. That's why the trip was

Horrible that i'm assuming throughout this trip. You probably tried to check in It was like hey what's going on? He kept being distant. You got more and more mad. Did you ever fight on this trip? Um, we did i i mean i was emotional you know because i was pregnant you're here in mexico with like what what seems feels like a stranger and you're pregnant yeah you you're allowed to cry yeah yeah yeah and i think i was really hoping it would be like us really connecting you know like that's what i pictured and maybe my expectations were too high when was this by the way and have you since had your child oh yes she's six months she's six months okay so this is almost a year ago yeah which is crazy but yes almost a year okay um yeah so

it we did fight i feel like it was more, it was more like me crying and being like, please tell me what's going on. You know, I was sort of like, I was feeling like desperate feeling. Like, I just kept being like, is there something you need to tell me? Like, is there another woman? You know, like you felt truly confused. Yes. Yep. And at one point, so he, this is a whole other little side.

I'll just make it real quick. Side story. He used to smoke. I hate smoking. Yep. And at one point, so he this is a whole other little sides. I'll just make it real quick. Side story. He used to smoke. I hate smoking. I find it disgusting. So he quit while we were together and he hadn't smoked in like maybe four months or something, you know, since we were dating. And in Mexico, he smoked again and he was like, he goes, Oh, are you going to be annoyed if I smoke a cigarette? And I said, yes, I will be very annoyed. Like,

why do you even have cigarettes with you? And that was like the, the most energy I got from him was him pushing back when I, how old is this guy? He's going to be 43 in like a week. Okay. All right. Yeah.

So around your age, he's an adult. Yeah, your age he's an adult yeah i know he's an adult but like you know i i he could sneak a sneak a cig it's not the end of the world right so so that's what he was saying he's like well why can't i just smoke like i used to smoke way more and i'm like yeah but why do you why did you bring sick he knows how much i hate them and i'm like why did you even bring them on the trip and he's much i hate them and i'm like why did you even bring them on the trip and he's been smoking for 20 years or something so it's not it's not like a casual cigarette for him you know i can have a casual cigarette and i'm not a smoker but if he has one he'd start smoking again okay and then what do you say to him i was just like well yeah

of course i'm annoyed and then we kind of had a big fight and he's like you're overreacting and then so maybe i was did you overreact or did you just say i'm annoyed uh i think i don't think i overreacted but i think he was being sensitive to my pushback okay all right so yeah just like little things like that. And then, um, and then towards the end of the trip. So he had told me he was planning to move here, uh, many times, but the official date, he said he would move at the end of April. Obviously you guys getting pregnant. Was it a surprise? I'm assuming. Yes. Okay. How long were you dating beforehand? Six months. But you were a boyfriend and girlfriend when you got pregnant? Yes.

And I mean, I don't know if it's like our age or just who we are as people. It did move, I think, very quickly. To me, it was a very serious relationship at six months. Yeah. And was it both your firsts? No. First kid? Yeah. And was it both your firsts? No. First kid? Yeah.

No, he has an eight-year-old daughter and I have a nine-year-old son. And we were both married before. So they're from previous marriages. And is he an active father with his other child? This is the crazy part. He was. He was. They had 50-50 custody when they separated. I met his daughter many times. I met his ex-wife many times. He was very involved. Everyone said he was a wonderful father. I saw them together. He was a very involved, loving father. And he has since completely abandoned her as well. Really? Yes. So you've spoken with his ex-wife oh yeah i've actually visited her with my with my baby are you guys like friends now yeah we're friends that's well that's great honestly it's actually really nice it is there something going on with him like did you know if he's okay alive i know he's alive okay um uh i know that he lives oh can i say where the state he lives in or no sure yeah you can say whatever you want but yeah okay uh i know he lives in florida um i know red flag he is like i'm just kidding to me

no i'm making a joke about flor. You ever Google man from Florida? I'm just kidding. For all you Floridians out there, we love you. I'm just fucking around. You know, I thought it was a midlife crisis, to be honest, because I'm like, okay, so you move to the beach. He's like renting a Tesla to look cool. He didn't buy one.

He's renting one. How do you know this? Because his ex-wife is like best friends with his business partner. And so he keeps tabs and like he's doing everything on business credit cards. So anyway, kind of we can keep tabs on him. He sounds like he's not in the right headspace yes right but i think he thinks he is i'm not sure it's really strange he like started working out a ton like typical midlife crisis stuff you know yeah um so you're like you're able to follow him social well i found him on social media so i didn't have instagram i got it so I could look for him. And I found him and

it was a public page and he was posting photos of stuff in Florida and then like reposting pictures of him at the gym. We won't share this information, but I got to see his Instagram. What is it? Well, now it's private, but you can find it. But his account's private? Yeah. You can follow him. That's okay. Do you have any pictures that you could send? Yeah, I do. Yeah.

Yeah. Can you send them to Allie? Right now? Yeah, yeah. Like of him recently or? Sure, yeah. I just want to see what this guy's doing. Okay.

Here's one. Here's one of him at the gym. I mean, yeah, he used to be like heavier. Um, but yeah, he's not, he's not like, I'm sure he's not bad looking, but I'm sure he's a fine looking guy. I mean, yeah, he is. He's like, he is a good looking guy. I mean, he weighed like 40 pounds more when we were together, but he might be skipping leg day a little much, but... Yeah, he's definitely skipping leg day. I actually love legs. Legs are like my favorite thing on guys. He's kind of like a little bigger at the top than he is at the bottom. He's definitely skipping leg day, for sure. Oh, yeah, we're just not going to give away his identity. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, dang. I'm just kidding. All right, so why... I mean i mean the obvious you have a daughter she has a father that's important you know but is that what what is your motivation for wanting to touch base with them to be honest up until um okay so also we did talk on the phone one time in late october i called him from uh i did star 67 or whatever that is where it blocks the number uh i didn't know that still worked i remember when we were kids like that worked back then but still does uh so i called him on the block number and he answered and I was like, uh, hi. You know, I just thought he would hang up on me, but he didn't.

And he talked to me like as if it was his old self. He was kind. He was very like, hey, how's it going? Yeah. What's up? Like, yeah. Was he like, how's my daughter? Did he even know her name at this point he i think he did know her name i well we had picked out the name together so i i kept i did keep that same

name you honored that wow i know i wasn't going to i was going to change it last minute but we did I kept the same name um he kind of inquired about how she was doing but wasn't overly curious and I had been sending him emails because you know I'm blocked on everything and I just thought well maybe maybe he will get email so I had sent him information about her and like a photo and he never responded, but he told me on the phone call that he reads every email I sent. So did you ask any questions or like what was going, like, what was, how long was this conversation? What'd you talk about? Uh, it was almost 30 minutes. And I mean, I, I did ask him if I asked him, he was okay. I mean, that was one thing I asked him, like, and I asked him multiple times.

I was like, are you sure you're okay? Like, this is just not like you. I don't understand what's happening. And he never really answered. I asked him if he was on drugs because I just am not sure. Yeah. His behavior is so bizarre. Yeah.

And what did he say? I asked him. I did ask him about his other daughter because his his or you know his his eight-year-old daughter her and i are close and i care about her very much and to be honest it's as upsetting if not more upsetting what he's doing to her because she's eight you know she she knows what's happening yeah yeah he told me like it's just temporary that he's not seeing her and he he he needed to what did he say he's been living for other people for so long he needed to do something for himself which is why he moved

to florida okay well he's clearly having some sort of midlife crisis right yeah i mean he had he he has since i found out claimed that that my daughter our daughter is not his now and that he told me he wanted me to get an abortion which is absolutely not true absolutely not true it was the exact opposite actually but first of all he's been even if it was true you don't you know that's your choice you know right like and he's still responsible uh it's really hurtful for him to say but that's just him being gaslighting a prick yeah exactly exactly i think he's trying honestly it's like he's trying to hurt my feelings and i'm like i don't care about you i don't care about yeah where are you with him, where are your emotions with him? I actually feel okay. I really do. I feel thankful, oddly enough, that this happened while I was still pregnant because it did give me a little bit of time. I'm going to therapy. I was

going to therapy back then as well and just sort of work through the grief of the relationship. So I feel like I'm done grieving the relationship okay how's your support system like what is it right now uh it's it is it's really good um i don't have family uh i i mean i do have parents but we're not really super close and they live in a different state uh but i do have a lot of friends as a support system? Who was with you when you went into labor? Well, no one. Um, but I, I work actually at the hospital that I gave birth at. So I feel really comfortable in hospitals.

Okay. Um, and my friend luckily was with me when I was at the hospital in labor and it was the middle of the night and I was like you know what go home like I think I have a while maybe come back in the morning go get a little sleep and she was about to leave and then the doctors came in and I had to have an emergency c-section so it's good timing so she stayed with me for that which was great that's good um yeah and my friends a lot of them are moms as well. Some of them single moms also. And I feel like they really stepped up. It was super hard with the C-section because my house has a ton of stairs and they were like, oh, you can't go up and

downstairs freely. And so I had to have a ton of help in the beginning, but. But you had it. Yes, I did. I do. I do have, I do have a lot of wonderful in the beginning, but. But you had it. Yes. That's awesome. I did. I do. I do have, I do have a lot of wonderful friends. That's great. That's awesome. Yeah.

So back to you reaching out to him and back to your original question. Why, why are you motivated to reach out to him again? Yeah. Okay. So I do feel like at first for the longest time, it was was I just couldn't imagine my daughter not having a dad you know I just kept thinking about it and I'm like I truly being a single parent with two kids and two different dads it is was my greatest fear and I think it's become like my greatest insecurity. You know, it's just, it's one of those cliche things where it's like, you know, anyway, and I just kept thinking she needs to

have a dad, even if it's three days a month or phone calls or FaceTime, or just, I just want her to have family because it's just me and my son, you know, sorry, I'm getting kind of emotional, but I, it has shifted. And I think, you know,

we'll be fine. And I'd rather have her have a stable mom and not, you know, I was going to say narcissistic, but I'm trying not to throw out that word that's good that's good um he's certainly her to have a bad dad yeah i would rather have her have no dad and just me give her as much support as i can and like my friends be her uh aunts or whatever and um now it's shifted more to financially. I think he should be helping

me cause it's really freaking expensive to have a kid. Well, yeah, that, that I feel like you should, yeah. From a legal standpoint, I love that you are considering holding him accountable. And that's pretty much it. I've come to terms with the fact that he will not be in her life like he obviously is not interested in being her dad at all because i have given him every opportunity i mean i am not bitter with him i'm not angry i i haven't even i don't even write him mean emails you know i'm just very open and kind of like if you ever want to come around i'm open to it we don't have to even talk we can come up with an arrangement where we like 90 10 where you come visit her for one weekend a month or you know i'm just i that's what i wanted for the longest

time and now i'm sort of getting angry um that makes sense yeah and now it's shifted to I want help financially. And if I'm being really honest, I'm starting to get kind of petty, which I don't like, but I want people to know what he's done. I want people to know. That makes sense. I understand. Well, here's what I think you should do. Have you spoke with any lawyers around custody or, you know, how that looks like? Yes. Yes. I did hire a lawyer and we went through the legal process, which took months to get him on the birth certificate. So he is actually on the birth certificate. Great. You know, he got served paperwork. He completely ignored it. He has ignored everything from my lawyer. He's ignored everything from the I have a case manager at the Department of Child Services to get child support.

She's tried to contact him. He's ignored. How does that work? And I'm not that familiar. But like, can he keep ignoring you or at some point technically he he's doing a really good job of hiding himself so that he can ignore me um eventually the there are a lot of consequences i didn't know any of this either i've learned it all but they can suspend his driver's license they can they can suspend his passport can't they arrest him um yeah for not for not um

for not paying child support yeah yeah i feel like there have been celebrities who have gone to jail or for not paying child support yeah they would they they would have a bench warrant out for his arrest so like if he ever got like pulled over you know something like that then they could arrest him so is that active right now like right right now, if he got arrested, is there a bench worn out for his arrest? Not, not in the state of Florida, unfortunately. Okay. And is that something you're looking at? Yeah. So that's, this is the, this is my main problem is I need a verified address for him

in Florida, but we're pretty sure that he's me and his ex-wife are pretty sure that he's living with his new significant other girlfriend, wife. We're not sure. You think he could be married to her? Well, I got a text from a totally random phone number saying that he is married now and has another baby boy or has a baby boy on the way with this woman you got a rat from from someone you don't know yeah completely it was a florida phone number and i tried to look it up like in white pages and then um had a pi look look it up in their database

this guy ever heard of a condom to like an old man that's like 102 so i think that it's like a one of those um apps you know where you can like yeah yeah get a random number sure sure so i don't know who it was that's the person didn't identify themselves man the person didn't say leave him alone he's married now he has a baby boy on the way and like you no one cares about your baby your baby should have been an abortion just holy shit and we can assume that if it is true it's his now wife yes although my case manager uh said i could look it up in in um like because it's public record yeah that'd be a marriage license right yeah yeah and i couldn't find one but he could have gotten married in a different state or in a different country who knows or you know you you met in mexico he can

get married in mexico and have it not be legal and that could be his clever way of appeasing his next girlfriend clearly this guy but seriously like this he has a track record of destruction and and being self-centered i don't know fuck maybe he's a narcissist icentered. I don't know. Fuck. Maybe he's a narcissist. I don't, I don't know. He's clearly pulling out things that aren't great. You know, his behavior is drastic in nature.

So listen, back to like what, it sounds like you're already doing the things that I would recommend you doing. So, and I guess back to the original question, when you say I'm debating whether I should reach out to her, find my baby daddy, you kind of already are from a legal standpoint.

So is your question more on a personal standpoint? You're considering reaching out and trying to like mend fences? Like what exactly are you considering? What's on the table for you and why? So this is the thing that I wanted advice on because honestly I do get mixed reviews from my friends of like, should I be using my headspace to, to, to think about this kind of stuff. But what I have done to a couple people is reach out to them personally. So like on social media,

I reached out to his old boss who I've met and his boss's wife who I've also met and just kind of briefly explained the situation and said like, you know, do you have any information if you happen to have his current address or you know like more specifically where he's living? I don't need to know it. So I told them this, I said, you don't need to respond to me, but if you could please contact my case manager, she needs his address because to move forward with the legal process, I have to have his address and I don't know how to find it. And so I'm like, I wouldn't say it consumes me, but it's like this, it's like constantly sort of in the back of my mind. And I could keep reaching out to everyone always forever,

you know, because it's, I asked my lawyer, it is legal for me to reach out to people like friends, coworkers, and just be like, Hey, do you have any information? And maybe somebody would respond to me. And also it's partially because I want to ruin his reputation. Honestly, if I'm being completely honest, that's part of what this is. And some of my friends are like, yeah, get him, you know, like he deserves it. And then some of them are like, no, you should just chill out and let the legal system figure it out. Listen, I, I empathize with you. really do and understand all your feelings that's

I hope that goes without saying but yeah like listen like I understand the desire to want to ruin his reputation and then some I can imagine but yeah like you know what I'm going to say like it is going to take your you know it is your energy in time

so I think from a legal standpoint do what you time. So I think from a legal standpoint, do what you have to do. I think from a legal standpoint, follow your case manager slash lawyer's advice on whatever you need to do to hold them accountable. I fully support that. You know, on the personal side of things, I think you are entitled to feel however you want to feel. And I think you are entitled, you are entitled to feel however you want to feel. And I think you are entitled, quite honestly, to act however you want to act within the laws of our society and don't do anything that would put you and your children at risk. But short of that, you're going to get no judgment from me in terms of, yeah, I totally get your frustration. being said you know you just have to ask yourself is it really worth it like this guy clearly seems like not only a prick but honestly not the type

of person you want around you in your daughter you know he truly doesn't seem if if if these rumors are true that he's already in another relationship with another woman and she's potentially pregnant which honestly sounds totally believable given his past yeah me too i believe it as well then like this guy is just an absolute mess and midlife crisis i don't know maybe you know is it a midlife crisis crisis it could be a midlife crisis that never ends you know we say midlife crisis is if he's gonna have like a weird six months and then come back and be like whoa i don't know what the fuck i was doing but clearly this guy is a total like i don't know he he's going through something that if i were you i wouldn't feel safe or comfortable allowing him in my space i would feel kind of uncomfortable

and unsafe to allow him to have access to your daughter and quite frankly, your son. And what's going on with his other daughter? Yes, it is heartbreaking. But again, I think I can't help but wonder if everyone's just better off not having him around. Yeah. Just given his decision making, which is truly, you know, sad and tragic. But as sad as that is, I always like to like look at the positives in these moments, right? Like your support system, having friends and they're around you. I think you're absolutely right. Like this would have been so much more difficult and harder had he done this two or three years from now. You know, it's always, as hard as it is to find out who

someone really is it is always better to find out sooner than later always yes i mean i think i'm pretty sure i mean i don't know someone might want to make an argument against that but like i you know it's just you're better off and like listen you can't predict the future and when i when the reason i'm saying that is you have no idea what's going to happen our year or two three four five six seven ten twenty years from now and i say that because like you know you have your daughter and your son and right now your daughter being your focus uh give her all the love she needs and yes you can build a family for her that's maybe untraditional and you're still young.

You got your looks. You look great. You know, you're going to date other people. You know, let's work on our pickers, you know, a little bit. You know, like take it slow. But like you can still find a man that you respect and who could be a great father figure to both of your kids. And if that happens three, four, five years from now, they'll still have a positive impact in your children's lives. In the meantime, you can still give your children a lot of love and attention and you can still have

yourself and other strong women around your kids to give them you know whatever life lessons that they might get from their father like listen i i do you know there's a lot to be said about having the a traditional kind of family unit and there's a lot of scientific studies but it's not the only way i think a lot of it is just like i think what's hard about being a single mother oh i mean shit like i know but, there's a lot of things that are hard. Right. But I can imagine from the people I do know is like, your time is limited, you know, like Natalie's mom was a single mother for, for much of her life. And she had to like, she had to work. And so, you know, the kids had to not be there. And, you know, like sometimes

it's just because of necessity, mom has to work. Kids have to almost kind of raise themselves. And it would be nice to have a father figure around teaching them life lessons. And that sucks. But if you have your community of friends and other single moms that maybe men in your life is far better served focusing on what else is out there rather than going back and dealing with these guys. And again, other than from a legal standpoint of making sure he's held accountable and paying for what he has to pay for and unfortunately going down that path to hold him accountable, I fully support. Because I don't think, right now he's just hoping you give up. He's trying to wear you down and uh i don't think you should as long as you can handle that i can assure you and if i hope this makes you feel better this guy's doing a hell of a job on his own ruining his own life and if he's this uh deceptive and he's this kind of reckless with his life trust me people already know you know what i'm saying he's not convincing anyone this is why he's probably the type of person who has a track record of moving a lot and and short-term relationships because people figure out who he is

rather quickly and he just pivots you know he just meets new people and manipulates other people and so like you're trying to ruin a reputation quite frankly that doesn't really even exist yeah you know so find solace in that you know that like you're kind of trying to you know this is not like i would have said will smith before will smith kind of like ruined his reputation with the slap but prior to that like will Will Smith was like, everyone loves Will Smith. You know what I'm saying? Like, so pick another person that's like unanimously loved.

This is not your ex. You know what I'm saying? He is not seen as like this great guy, you know, by everyone who's known him. And you're out there being like, how do you not see it? I think people see it.

You know what I'm saying? So like, don't waste a lot of your energy trying to ruin what people i'm guessing already know well that's what i would think maybe you're probably right though that it's short-term like friendships short-term people that he yeah i'm sure he has a lot of friends and i'm sure he's good at meeting people very quickly i'm sure he's good at meeting people very quickly. I'm sure he's very charming. Yeah. But he is, again, he is not fooling anyone over time. And again, he might fool some dum-dums for a while, naive people, people who might be benefiting

from being in his orbit because they're using him as much as he's using them. That's possible. But I'm saying long-term, you know, we're talking, because you're talking about strong, healthy, potentially long-term relationships, whether it's your friends, whether it's your children, future men, that you're a 36-year-old single mom, like what you care about is stability and healthy relationships. And so anyone else who can't give you that,

fuck them. You know what I'm saying? And that includes him. So, you know, and so like you, you know, looking at his life and the type of relationships he is able to cultivate and grow and sustain, those aren't the type of relationships you're looking for.

So that's my point is like to sabotage him, you're sabotaging someone who's really point is like to to sabotage him you're sabotaging someone who's really great at self-sabotage so let him just you know uh do it himself uh shep from selling uh southern charm had a great quote that i thought i laughed and he said something he it was like at the finale he quoted napoleon bonaparte and it was like when your opponent is you know making a mistake uh don't get in their way it's rude you know type of thing so you know kind of let him let him bury his own grave the guy has another woman pregnant i know and what do you think he's going to do when, like with her, you know?

You're right. I mean, you're probably right. Part of me is like, well, maybe, maybe this is the kid he'll choose to raise. And if that's the case, but like, if that's the case, so be it, you know? And, and honestly, all you can do at that point is be thankful for that child that he will be, have someone, but like, do you do not waste your energy letting your ego or whatever the you know well it's not fair or my daughter it's not you know because because listen it's unlikely that's the case it is so unlikely that your ex is going to have some sort of epiphany and be the all-american dad to this young boy and completely bail on his responsibilities

with his other two daughters. It's possible. Like, anything's possible, right? But like, and so sure. But highly unlikely. But I would hate for you to focus your energy on some things that are possible but unlikely. And right now, your desire to ruin his reputation

is based off the possibility that he could be this all-american dad with this woman and and still not step up to his responsibilities as a father with your child and his other child yeah and i just think that's like just not a good use of your time because the the the probability of you of the universe needing for you to step in because otherwise the universe is going to let him flourish on his own is this so unlikely you know that it's not worth your time but you just when i say unlikely i mean long term you know you you can't look him up on social media in a snapshot of one day and see him at disney world having a good time

with whoever the fuck and maybe including this kid and and paint a picture in your head of what his life is like you know healthy and good oh my god he's doing the thing i wish he'd do with me it's just like no that is a a picture of one day and knowing him maybe it's staged you know right so like you know what i'm saying like social media ain't real we as we know and you know with people like him it's even extra full of shit because this guy is living in delusion and he is going through either a midlife crisis or he's just a self-centered prick and maybe a narcissist i don't fucking know um But if he is. He might be. Fine. He might be a true. But if he is.

So, like, here's what I don't understand by the world and all the people. Like, you've listened to the show. You've heard me, like, the whole, like, pushback on people referring to his narcissist. If he is, in fact, a narcissist, then fucking run. Right. You know? Because you say, like, oh, he might be a narcissist. Well, if he is, then he is dangerous for you to be be for him to be in your life and in your daughter's life.

And he is not someone you want. And again, other than getting him to help financially, I wouldn't want an actual narcissist being capable of coming in and out of my children's lives and your life. So if he really is, then like fucking run. of my children's lives and in your life so if he really is then like fucking run uh but if he's just like a self-centered prick who's immature and only really capable of thinking of himself and like yeah those are narcissistic qualities for sure you know we all have them um then i still don't think he's worth any of your time and i think you should just for focus on your legal rights uh to hold him accountable as a father and just be thankful you found out sooner than later that he is who he is. And I know that's a bummer, but it could be so much worse.

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I agree with you. I am thankful that it happened before she was born and not when she was eight. Yeah. And you're like, was this a catalyst for you in therapy before or was this a catalyst for you to get in therapy? No, I was in therapy before, but I did get into a different kind of therapy, which is a little bit more intense, but it does kind of help. It helps. It's called EMDR, but it kind of helps.

Yeah. I was going to guess that what it is that Natalie is, is in that. Yeah. It's been really big for her. Yeah. It's pretty, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing. I mean, mostly because I just kept reliving sort of these memories and having like a physical response to them. When I would think about it, it just consumed too much of my time. So my therapist was like, maybe you should go to this other kind of therapy. That's awesome. Well, I think again, right now, I think your energy is better served

investing in that therapy, being a mother, focusing on your friendships. I really do for everything I'm hearing. And because the the fact and it's so great that you're in therapy and then as far as dating maybe you know like maybe you do have some healing to do not only from what you experience with him but maybe whatever has happened in your childhood or whatever traumas that you are currently processing with this new therapy and you know again not your fault what happened but like like we all, uh, have had some bad pickers in our day. We all seek validation from unhealthy sources, especially when we experienced trauma in the

past. So maybe before you get back in the dating world, really investing in therapy and finding out why you've made some of the decisions you've made in the past, why try to trace back some of these self-destructive decisions you've made that have put you in some of these situations so that when you do go back out and start dating, maybe you're less likely to do that and more likely to attract healthier, more mature, capable men. Because it's not, again, and I hate the way I say that attract because it implies it's somehow your fault, but it's not your fault.

your fault, but it's not your fault. But I do think our habits can sometimes lead us to not necessarily attract these type of people because I think they seek it out. They're actually looking for people like you. It's just more being able to identify when you meet those people and then have the tools to enforce the boundaries that you need to make sure that they don't infiltrate your life. Yes. So, because those people will always, these people will always seek you out. You know, it's not that you attract them. It's just that you have a hard time pushing them away and repelling them where other people might have stronger sense of, you know, identifying and then enforcing those boundaries if that makes

sense yes yep uh all right you feel is this helpful is this i don't know what it is i knew what you were gonna say already okay well let's let's let's start yeah i was just thinking i'm like i don't know he's gonna be a dad soon congratulations by the way thank you yeah this guy saw i mean he's a loser literally he's just a loser right and i just think when decent people men and women hear about this they like cannot imagine they're like what like i cannot imagine this so i guess maybe i thought maybe a little bit i was like maybe he'll just be like yeah fuck him you know no i mean i can't imagine and yeah fuck him for sure but like you got but I'm not like I'm thinking what's the cost to you yeah I know you're right and you are sacked by by you investing your personal energy to try to ruin him somehow again other than what you need to do

legally it's just costing you way more. So you got to think about what it costs you. If this was free, if it was free to ruin his life, I'd cosign if it costs you nothing. But unfortunately, it will cost you a lot. So let him ruin his life on his own. He seems to be doing a great job of it already. let him ruin his life on his own he seems to be doing a great job of it already unfortunately yes it also is costing other people but that's not your responsibility to protect people he might meet in the future you know everyone has to do their own work uh you're doing yours so good for you for doing that but it is don't use those quote-unquote other people as an excuse to stay emotionally invested in this guy okay fine or do it you know it's up to you but like just know what it's costing you is what all

i'm saying i know you're right you're right and like it's always yeah be angry but like i think gratitude will go a long way for you. Because again, this could be so much worse with this guy. Yeah. You are right. And I'm thankful he lives across the country from me, honestly. Yeah. It could be so much worse.

He could be who he is and then deciding to make your life miserable. Yes. Or, like my friends keep pointing out, he could be fighting me for custody and be this awful person, but he's not. decisions for yourself and for your kids, it will bring healthy situations into your life. I strongly feel that way. And so, yeah, I understand the human instinct to be petty and to be toxic sometimes, but those choices are going to bring other petty and toxic things into your orbit. I strongly feel that way. So if your focus is on raising and creating an environment that's healthy and consistent and full of love and stability, then focus on making those types of choices because it will attract those type of people into your lives, whether it's friends,

colleagues, and future lovers. I really think that to be true. Yeah. And let that be your motivation because that's you truly winning. You are right. Thank you. All right. Well, we would love an update from where things are for you, especially just from a legal standpoint. If you want to offer any advice to our people with any updates, certainly appreciated because unfortunately, I think this is something that more often that women and maybe some men have to deal with. But when it comes to the unknown, when it comes to your legal rights, when it comes

to this, I think a lot of people don't know. So if you have any updates in the future, please share. I will let everyone know. It's a tough system to navigate. So I do think people need a lot of help navigating it. Yeah, for sure. Well, sorry you're going through it. It sucks, but I really think for the best. Thanks. Thank you very much. And also, I love your book and I've made all my friends read it. I really appreciate it. Well, read it again when you get back out there. There's there. I, I, I paged through it from time to time. I'm like,

yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah. I should, I should, uh, implement that back into my life. Um, all right. Well, thank you so much. Take care. All right. Bye-bye. This episode is brought to you by Better Help Therapy. It's important. I don't know if you knew that, but that's how we feel here at the Vow Files household. There is no easier way to get into therapy than with Better Help. That's what they're all about. They're making it easier than ever before to take that therapy plunge and take care

and prioritize your mental health. So many of us are just kicking the can, so to speak, when it comes to prioritizing our mental health. And we get why. Because it can be expensive. It can be inconvenient, it can be stressful, it can be hard to find the right therapist. And that's what BetterHelp is doing like never before. They are working with so many new therapists every day to help ensure that you can find a therapist that you connect with, that you feel comfortable with. BetterHelp is all about convenience and

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Again, that's theway.com promo code viall. How's it going? Hi, I'm Emmy. I am 25 years old and my boss cheated on me. Okay. What do you mean your boss cheated on you? So you were also dating your boss? Yes. So I guess to clarify, he's not like a 50 year old CEO. He is 29 years old and a lead on one of my teams. So essentially is a boss of me in that project. And yeah, we had started dating in June. Okay. And he was single? It wasn't like he was also... Yes. Okay.

All right. No, he came after me. Okay. So he pursued you. You started dating and you just didn't disclose it to HR or something because... So at our company, it's super normal to date. So honestly, it wouldn't have been like a problem. I don't think it was more of a...

Honestly, on my end, because of what I'm going to share. I felt really unsure of how long the relationship would last. And so I was kind of playing that game at first of, you know, why disclose something if I might just be a kind of a situation ship. And then it turned into him kind of saying he was going to get a new job soon and things like that. So it just never unfolded. but it wasn't really like we were trying to be secretive in it in that way but it just we never it was just more like yeah you're trying to figure out do we really need to tell them because other things were in motion and then it just never happened sounds like pretty much then it kind of went on to be like it doesn't really matter kind of like this life this way anyway it's fine okay uh so when did he start cheating on you or and how did you find out and also what do you i guess my question is like what are you

trying to figure out honestly i kind of think that i'm just in a state of shock that he did this to me because he basically cheated on me for the whole relationship um so i think i'm just in a state of shock that someone i thought i was so close to lied to my face like virtually every day and all this time and kind of then I guess after that figuring out how to get over that and then how to just control my desire to want to tell people at work what he did and kind of be petty. Okay. Well, what are your risks? Because I feel like HR not knowing yet, all things being equal, now that you know what he did, I'm guessing you wish you would have disclosed this to HR sooner. Honestly, that's hard because now in the sense of I want to tell people what he did so that people aren't friends with him at work, I don't have to deal with people like thinking he's a nice guy. Yeah. But in any sense of like getting him in actual trouble, I don't think that that would ever be something I would have done like with work. Okay. Well, what do you want to accomplish? I think I just don't want to be at happy hours and be at work and watch like

my work friends be nice to him and not know what he did. I think that that really bothers me and I'm going to have a hard time like keeping my mouth shut. All right. So all I care about is you making the smartest choice for you and one that you won't regret because right now you're in a tough situation. Your feelings are very hurt. It's hard to process. You are a liability to yourself right now because that's what happens when we're kind of fucked up emotionally and angry and hurt and sad and sometimes we don't always make decisions that serve us well in the long run so that's all i really care about what you should do um so i guess you just have to figure out what are your risks you know um what would happen if you started telling people, hey, this is crazy and unbelievable, but me and Ryan were dating and we didn't disclose it because we were going to and then he was going to quit. So I don't know.

Like, what does that potentially get you in trouble? I think it could. I guess I'd have to try to figure out a little more, like if it surely would. But I think at the least, like he would be at risk of getting fired. And I guess I don't know that I really want that, you know, since we didn't tell them about the relationship and then it would create maybe workplace drama. I don't know if that's, you know, something that I really want to get myself into, if it's really worth feeling validated and having people at work really know, you know, like I could tell all my friends and family and get that validation there and move on. Okay. Well, that's good that

you feel that. I mean, good. I mean, you can feel however you want, but you seem like you are confident in that decision. So, I mean, like, I guess then what are you really trying to decide? Like, how did you find out he cheated on you, by the way? Right. So I think it's just, honestly, the work part. And then just the fact that I'm so hurt. I'm also just as a person with the work situation aside, just trying to figure out how to... Even though I know that he's a bad person for me because of what he did, trying to figure out how to move on from someone I thought was my best friend too. I'm still struggling with that, even though I know what he did was wrong.

But how I found out was on his Apple Watch while we were on a work trip and we had to work together the rest of the trip. So that was pretty tough in another state. So basically, a little bit of a backstory here. Right when we started dating, there were red flags with his ex-girlfriend who he dated up to 10 years ago. girlfriend, who he dated up to 10 years ago. So I thought, you know, he kind of, I mean, I know you don't like using the word gaslit, but he kind of, he kind of manipulated me into a situation saying, you know, she was just a friend and he had hung out with her in a group behind my back. And at that point in time, I was pretty much ready to leave because I was like, I don't have any time for this to deal with lying or, you know, being secretive or anything with exes, frankly, I just don't really do it. So at that time already, which is right when we started dating, I was already kind of about to be over it.

And he admitted that he actually on his to his last girlfriend, which is not the ex, we can name the ex cat to make it more clear here, his ex cat, he had actually gone back to after his last girlfriend and essentially cheated on her by, um, she had reached out to him saying she still liked him. And then he went back to her. So I find all this out and I'm like, okay, these are a lot of red flags. I don't really think I could do it, but he convinces me he's gonna unfollow her on add her. He's never going to talk to her again um and i did everything i could to try and make sure that was the truth um so you found out caution you found this out while you were starting to date him that he was making these types of decisions okay yep exactly so this is

yeah so this is right at the beginning of the relationship. I found out this kind of backstory, and he was trying to be her friend, but then essentially said he'd cut that off because he understood my boundaries. But it was still a giant red flag to me. Absolutely. I almost did not proceed on. Now we know I shouldn't have. But nonetheless, we go on this work trip a couple weeks ago here, and he calls me.

He's getting coffee, And he's like, oh, I think I left my Apple Watch in your room. And I was like, yeah, I see it. Like it's here. I'll meet you in the lobby in five. Like we can go get lunch, whatever. I look at the Apple Watch because I was making sure it was there. And I make the decision to open it. And I see somebody on there named, we can just name them, John. John on mute. And it's the first message that morning. And it says, LOL, hi.

And John is his best friend's name. And I'm like, John is a kid. Like, there's no way John is texting you LOL hi at 9 a.m. Like, what is that? This sounds like a chick. Yeah. Right. So I just immediately like kind of know, I think. And I start scrolling and he's like referring to john as she and then he's asking john if he's back in um a town that i know

the ex-girlfriend lives in and then i see a photo of the ex-girlfriend so i know and i'm literally trembling i'm like shaking in this hotel room i'm so mad and he's basically at this point trying to call me being like oh why aren't you in the the lobby? And then at that point knocking on the door. Because I'm talking to John. Yeah. And I'm like, I have to make a split decision right now. Do I open the door? Do I just like, what do I do? So I opened the door and I basically just yell and I'm like, literally never talk to me ever again. And he absolutely knows there's no question of like, what are you talking about? So he's just like, hey, like,

sit down, you know, the whole thing. And I'm not having any of it. Honestly, I become pretty aggressive. So I was just absolutely not having it. And I was just like, no, like, don't want to hear it from you. Like, fuck you. Like, you're disgusting. Like, this is awful. Like, I don't know how you can look at me right now and try to defend this like I just don't even have anything to say and then uh and then yeah okay and then so then um I was like all right I I need like we talked for like maybe an hour but there's it's not getting anywhere it's just him saying he wanted to keep her as a friend um nothing's really being said he's honestly honestly still kind of trying to say that that's what he wants. And he thinks like we're still going to be together. And I said, no, we're done like right now. And so then I'm like, get out of my room. And then he was like, just sitting there. So I just got up and I left.

And luckily I had a friend in that city. So I went to stay with her and hang out with her the rest of the day. But the next day we had to work together, which was really fun. So I basically just acted like, you know, besides what we had to talk about, that he didn't exist. And then the next day we had to fly on the plane home together and sit next to each other, of which he's still acting like kind of like we're dating. He's like showing me a message from his dad about me and being like, oh what my dad said and then i'm just staring at him like completely lost no he's just trying to yeah he's just that's that's he's just deflecting i know it makes you feel crazy but it's a pretty normal response for someone who knows they're in the doghouse and they're just trying to diffuse the tension right and so um basically at this point that was about a week ago

um and he was just still kind of saying things like i would i was just confronting him about it and and about the messages and and how they're inappropriate they're basically just texting like boyfriend and girlfriend like giving advice on what shoes to buy giving her his red zone password like sending photos of them places together like red zone password yeah unreal right like i thought i was the only one getting the football picks and everything and the help with you know my fantasy team but he had two girlfriends even with that so what a motherfucker yeah so basically he admitted like he did it all seven months um that we dated um it got worse recently whatever that means um they're talking about christmas etc it's basically really horrible and i anything we

talked about was just me being like i don't want to get back together with you anyway but even if i did like don't you realize you would have to cut her off and he's like still not getting it he's so so in on that um and then he basically was like no no, I'm going to do this till I'm 45. Like, I don't know how to cut her off. And I was like, really? Like, you couldn't text her right now and like tell her to cut. He's 29. Yeah.

What a pussy. No, truly. Like, I didn't say that, but I basically just said like, you are like her little bitch. Like, you are never going to like have a girlfriend. Like you can't when you have her in your life. And he was like, yeah, honestly, that's true. And I tried like a last ditch effort for him to like text her and like, say like they can't talk and everything.

And he was like, why? I think part of it was probably just for the validation of putting a rift in between them, to be honest. And also at that time it was the first day i was probably still in more of denial that like we absolutely can't be together but it didn't even work because anyway she's all you're my best friend and i said tell her i'm your best friend and he said no that's mean and i said well a little mean what you've done to me but okay so anyways now we haven't spoken a week um and that's kind of where that all left off and i think it's just why isn't he dating her

just out of curiosity i don't think she wants to be with him okay that was my guess um he's she is if it makes you feel any better she is manipulating the fuck out of him and ruining his life and he's letting her and he he's probably not wrong he's probably not even kidding he he she probably has some sort of weird fucking control or power over her he wishes she could he could be with her she won't let him and he she conveniently allows him in his life when it serves her and needs her and she has been able to manipulate him into thinking that he is somehow her savior, even though like she's just using him is my guess.

Yeah. So if you want to have some sort of like closure, because I understand why you're feeling petty, maybe you can find solace in the fact that like he is in this very poisonous relationship with her. It is upset as it makes you quite honestly, like this, he is fucking up his life right now.

And he probably feels powerless around her. And if you can wrap your brain around that and allow him to do that, uh, you, you don't need to really do anything else because this guy is wasting all his energy on this person who really doesn't respect him, doesn't want to be with him. And he is trying to find other relationships with other women who are available because he hasn't dealt with his shit. He, I don't know what attachment style he has or whatever,

or trauma he experienced as a kid or what he's he has or whatever or trauma he experiences as a kid or what he's not dealing with but clearly he is under her spell like it's weird because and i'm not trying to make him sound sympathetic i i just want you to realize that you really don't need to do anything to get your revenge to fully understand where the position he's in you know because in a weird fucked up way, him pursuing you is like a cry for help in a way. It's like an honest attempt for him to try to move on from this girl, but he just fucking can't. He's addicted. And I don't know why or what's going on. And I certainly know what it's like to have been addicted to my first love. You know, we broke up on and off for

eight years or whatever. And it wasn't, you know, that wasn't entirely her fault. I played a role in that too, but like, you know, maybe different situations, but all I'm saying is I know what it's like to kind of just not be able to get over someone and then have a power over you and his life won't get fixed until he's able to break free from her. And you know what, I wish it could have been you, blah, blah, blah. Your ego certainly wishes that it could have been you blah blah your ego certainly wishes it could have been you but like honestly this guy has a long way to go before he's in a position to actually be safe for anyone else to fall in love with because he's got all this other shit going on and i think he is going to experience a lot more frustration and disappointment in his life as long

as she is in his life and that's what i'm saying is you don't need to do and disappointment in his life as long as she is in his life. And that's what I'm saying is you don't need to do anything to make his life miserable or difficult. He seems to be doing just enough. Yeah. No, thank you for all that. Cause I, I do absolutely agree. It's almost like the emotional part of me hasn't caught up to the logical part of me. Um, and I feel like I totally agree with everything like that. And I know we can't be together too. And I think he is literally under a spell, as you said. So all true things, it's just still tough when you get betrayed, but I totally get that. I think you just need to see him as a very small, helpless little boy. That's what you need to picture in

your head. Cause that's kind of who he is. You know? Absolutely. I mean, do you have any like good tips for, I know you said like you've been cheated on, like just for going forward in life, like trying to still put my best foot forward at the beginning of a relationship and not letting this cloud, you know, my head too much when I start to doubt. Well, take some time. This just happened like a week ago. So, you know, give yourself some grace, take some time. It's going to be harder that you work with him. You're going to be reminded of what he did to you every time you see him. So in the short run, that makes it harder. Depending how you approach your thought process and your ability to control your thoughts and emotions, you working with him could be in the long run,

a good thing. It could help you get over him faster, but that's entirely up to you. That is going to come down to your ability to control your thoughts and enforce your boundaries. It is going to come down to your ability to not go down mental rabbit holes of obsessing over what happened, trying to figure out,

you know, that, that question we all ask ourselves in trying to figure out, you know, that question we all ask ourselves in breakups is why, you know? If you find yourself doing the, why did he do this? Why did this happen to me? Why? And you're trying to understand him, then you are risking being very emotionally committed and invested into him, even though you're not with him. But if you can, you know, control those thoughts, you know, when you find yourself asking yourself, why tell yourself to lock it up, accept who he is, accept what he did, have pity for him and almost practice empathy for him.

You know, you don't have to like them, but you can be like, you can feel sorry for him. Like you can feel sorry for a guy that even though he hurt you. And even though you're fucked up right now and hurt that, like, you have a better understanding of where you're at emotionally and who you are as a person and you're not under someone's spell and yeah, he hurt you, but you are able to see him for who he is and he's not able to see her for who she is. And you can have empathy for him and realize that you can get the ick from him. You can, you know, and the more you see him for who he is, the more you will be turned off by who he is.

And you look at him and you see him as this little boy who doesn't have the guts to stand up for someone who doesn't respect him and is just using him. And he can't see that like gross. And you see it that way. That'll help you get over him much faster, just even by seeing him every day. But that really is going to come down to your ability to police your thoughts and control your thoughts and if and go from there uh how much do you love your job um i mean i definitely really like my job but i am definitely

open to other things in the future so there you go so maybe use this as a catalyst use this as a catalyst to just you know not get comfortable like sir get comfortable. You don't have to quit your job, but maybe you start looking around. I don't know. Listen, I don't want you to make any rash decisions. So any decision you're going to make in the next couple of months. I would make sure you're getting people's advice who you trust. And I would listen to that. Your parents, mentors, whatever. If they are saying to you, hey, listen, I hear you, but I don't know, it seems a little hasty. I would really take that to heart in the next couple of months because it's just going to be challenging for you to be emotionally disconnected and not reactive. It's just human nature and you're in a vulnerable position right now. So just make sure you're getting good advice from people whose advice you trust in the short term. And in the long term, weigh your options.

See what else is out there for you. Because yeah, why work with or for this guy any longer than you need to? If you love this job, make it work. If it's a nice job that like maybe it's ran its course and you just kind of got comfortable in the job that you have, but like maybe this is a time to see what else is out there and use the experience you cultivated in this job for maybe something better. I don't know, look around.

You know, you can shop for jobs without quitting a job. Yeah, 100%. So, you know, like use this as an opportunity to just see if this is exactly where you need to be in your life. And maybe it is. You don't want to overreact, but you can also use this as an opportunity to reevaluate. Yeah, I love that. I love using the bad, so to speak, to kind of push yourself to new lengths.

And I think I can do it. I just need to be smart about probably not going to any work activities that include alcohol. And I, I think this guy is going to make, have plenty of emotionally difficult moments in his life going forward because he is not in control of himself, unfortunately. And that's not to make excuses for what he did to you. He is an adult man who should know better and should be capable of not doing what he did. But sadly he's not. And that makes it honestly just more pathetic. Honestly, I've been saying the exact same thing.

Like I've been trying my best to just be like, you know what though? That's why I don't ask the why I try not to, because I've learned in life, like you can't, you can't make sense of people who don't even know what they're doing or why they're like, you can't make sense of things like that anyway.

So it's a waste of time. We probably can. I mean, yeah, the why is, is that he hasn't figured out or been able to like break away from whatever emotional control she's had over him. She doesn't want to be with him. And so he's tried to move on, but still is holding out hope to reconnect with her. And what's shitty, and this happens all the time, right? She is being selfish to him and she manipulates him. And unfortunately, he is doing the same thing to you. And instead of doing it back to her,

he's doing it to you. And he's just going to leave a trail and he's justifying his actions because she's doing it to him. And because he's willing to put it up with her, he's expecting people like you to put it up with, put up with what he's doing to you. That's the why. So we've solved that. So congratulations. You no longer have to ask yourself why. And when you do remind yourself, that's what's going on. And in the meantime, you can see him for what he is, is not only a cheater, but someone who honestly can't even help himself. He is so emotionally immature and incapable that he's just a weakling and he's kind of a coward and he's weak. He's a weak person. And so you have to ask yourself, do I want to keep dating,

investing, sleeping with a weakling, a weak man? Because that's what he is. I'm not even being mean. I'm just being honest. No, I know. It's true. And the answer is no. Yeah. So when you get frustrated or get sad or ego shows up, that's the conversation you have with yourself about who he really is. Then there's no why. And then immediately the ick will show up. And then you just have to have that conversation with your ego. It's like, listen, we didn't wrestle in the red flags. This was on us. We knew. We ignored. We didn't pay attention. We don't need to sit there and beat ourselves up. We don't have to give up men altogether because they're so horrible because whatever.

No. The guy told us. He told us that he was going to do this. We just ignored it and we didn't listen because I don't know why. So in the future, when the glaring red flags show up, at a minimum, ask more questions. Dive deeper into what is going on. And the more squirmish they get, and the more defensive they get, and if it's not just the obvious answers, then you know not to ignore it. Totally agree. I think, yeah, I definitely let words speak louder than actions,

and that's not the right way to roll with. So I totally, totally take all that with me. You'll live. You're only 25. Yes. This is a great lesson to learn at 25. You didn't really lose much. You haven't lost a job.

You lost a coward. And your ego took a bit of a bruise. Yeah. Kind of feels like a weight lifted off of my shoulders, not having to stress about if he's lying. Cause now we just know he is. So can move forward and find something better. All right.

Well, good luck. Sorry, you're going through this, but it sounds like we we're heading in the right direction. But we'd love an update of where things land, how you decide to move forward. What was,

what was it like to work with them? Did you find or start looking for a new job? We'd love an update in a few months of what this very unfortunate and unexpected moment for you, what it turned into. And I'm banking on it being fairly positive, but that's on you, but we'd love an update. Yeah. No, I'll definitely pull through. No, I will be positive and I will let you guys know. All right. All right. Well, good luck. Take care. It's going to be great. Thank you so much for your time and your thoughts.

And those are all amazing thoughts. And I love the show. So thank you. All right. Well, I appreciate you saying that. Have a great day. Thanks. You too.

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That's V-E-S-S-I.com slash V-I-A-L-L to explore their versatile collection and claim your 15% discount on your first order. Embrace every moment. Come rain or shine with Vessi. How's it going? I'm okay. My name is Sarah. I'm 33 and my husband of 16 years was,

has been cheating on me. Okay. Well, I am very sorry. Thank you. Did you just recently find out? I did. I initially found out in October about the first situation. And then

there was a second and for December, it's been an ordeal. Okay. How'd you find out about the first one? So a little backstory. He's in the military and we decided that my kids are getting older and we wanted to be closer to family. So we bought a house and my kids and I moved ahead of him. And he came to visit in October. And just the way he was treating me, I had that feeling that something was going on. So I looked through his Apple Watch because he didn't leave his phone around. So second caller today who found out they're being cheated on via an apple watch watch yeah so i found messages um and that's how i found out okay you confronted him i'm assuming the first time yes so i worked from home and it was really early and um he i

woke him up not very pleasant um with him know that I had found out. What do you say? He he's a very good liar, but he just acted clueless initially. I mean, he couldn't deny it, but he really he never admitted it right off like right then. But he just got really defensive. So but like what what was resolved, if anything, did you did he ever cop to it? So initially that day, I had his sister come and get him because I needed him away from me. So back up when I found the messages, I ended up taking his phone.

I got his phone. He came basically after me to get the messages. I ended up taking his phone. I got his phone. He came basically after me to get the phone. My dog being a protective dog, didn't know who to go after and was kind of attacking the wrong person and attacked me. And he initially got his phone back. So I called his sister to come get him because I needed him out of my house. My kids were here. So he left. And then he came back probably five, six hours later, once the kids were in school, had a complete 180 was apologizing that he just hasn't been happy for the last few years. Kind of flipping it around on me, like it was my fault. And, but then but then then again he was really apologetic and

just wanted to make it work like he was just so sorry that was the end that was kind of how that went and then what did you do with that um i was initially i mean obviously i was extremely hurt but once i heard him say he wasn't happy for the last few years, and just tell me kind of all the things that I mean, I know, it's not my fault that I got cheated on. However, I kind of understood him looking elsewhere, because we had been together for so long. I have two kids, I take a lot of stress and my kids come first i didn't put his needs first or and i felt like i i just understood where he was coming from so yeah so i think that i think when people when infidelity happens this is a common conversation a common kind of thought

process and i don't i don't think you need me to say this, but I'm just going to articulate what I think you're trying to say, which is it's not his fault. It's not your fault he cheated on you. That was his choice. Right. But you're recognizing right now maybe the role you played and why you two have been disconnected.

Correct. And so you two being disconnected is the fault of the relationship, the two of you, whatever role you two played. It was his choice to handle this disconnectedness via infidelity and cheating, which was not something you chose to do. And that is 100% on him. So, and the reason I articulate that and point it out, because I think a lot of people in your shoes struggle with that, right?

You don't want to sound like you're making excuses for him. You don't want to sound like you are crazy or some sort of pushover. You are just trying to recognize the disconnect that your relationship had that resulted in this. And then you have to deal with why and how he chose to deal with it and whether that's someone, if you even want to reconcile, is safe for you to do with if you are right does that make sense right yeah that's yeah that's exactly i i know that it's not my fault that he did this but i know i know my part in it and i like not it the disconnectedness yeah yeah right yeah right right right yeah okay so then you found out about another time so so he was here for about two weeks in october he leaves for the month of november

it comes back december 1st um i felt okay i noticed he was kind of more on his phone i noticed um just him being a little weird again i thought it may have been just in my head. About a week goes by and I pick up his phone to get my son internet for his iPad. And the first thing that pops up is a message with another female. And it was inappropriate. We were driving. He immediately takes the phone from me and my kids are in the car so i can't confront it like she sends a name they were just sending like he had sent basically a shirtless picture of himself at the gym saying how much he missed her she sent a picture back

she was closed but still inappropriate how much she missed him. So that was that happened early December. And it just kept it kept happening day after day in December, he would be like, I'm done. Just excuse after excuse. I've never been lied, like looked dead in my eye and lied to, like he was lying to me. So where are we now? So December was very rough for me. It was, he was here the whole month. One day he wanted a divorce. He was done.

He just wanted to live his life. The next day he was so sorry. Um, I would be intimate with him and then turn around a couple hours later, wake up in the middle of the night and catch him on the phone with her. It was just a lot for me. I so desperately wanted him to understand how important our family is. We've been together for so long. I realized my part, the disconnect, some of my actions.

Like, what is that? You keep saying that. Prior to us moving here, we felt like roommates. He would try to give me attention. I wouldn't give it back. Sex just wasn't important for me. I take a lot in. I'm stressed out about everything. So when we would fight, I'm not, I wouldn't be the kindest. I would hit below the belt. I could admit that as soon as I found out he was cheating in October, though, I immediately started therapy. And since then I have not raised my voice at him.

Not, I have not, like, I've really tried to work on myself to work, to, to fix my problems. And for that part. So I've just really been trying to show him, look, I'm not going to be that same person. I mean, I know it's only a few months and it might be hard for him to believe, but I mean, you're at least you're the one who's actually trying to do something. He's right. And he, so the day he left or the night before he left to go back to, um, where he stationed, he, he told me he called her and he was done. I'm like, okay, well, this doesn't feel right, but whatever. So on the day, even on the way to the airport, he's like, I'm done with her.

I'm not going to see her, this, that, and the other. Told me he loved me. He's going to go to therapy. He's going to get help. He knows he needs help. And then we had an issue with our phones to where the numbers, we switched carriers so that we didn't have our numbers. So I was working on getting our numbers back. Well, while he was on his flight back, he had no wifi. So what I did was I took his number

and put it on my daughter's phone and found out that he was in fact lying to me once again because his the other girl was actually picking him up from the airport um so i kind of went off on her and then he he got back to where he is and and had a slew of messages from me because he was lying again. How old is this girl? From what I understand, she's late twenties. However, I don't, I ask him questions and I don't get the truth. At this point, you wouldn't even tell me her name. All you know is he's a liar and a very convincing one. Yes. So where are you today? And I guess what can I help with? So as crazy as it sounds, I'm very, as heartbroken as I am, I'm very willing to get to let him get the help he needs. He I this isn't the person that I know. And I know that he's going through something. What that is, I don't know. But I guess I just, I don't want to be the person who, while he's getting help, I don't want to constantly, I don't want to be, where are you? What are you doing? Like, tell me the truth. You're lying. I don't want to stress him out and make him, push him further away. So you're worried about stressing him out?

Yes. Because for me, I feel confident with where I'm going. And I don't feel like I'm stressed out. Obviously, I like I wonder, I'm constantly like, Oh, is he lying? Is he doing this? Is he doing that? Obviously. But like, I don't want to push him away further. I want to show him that I'm here to support him with going through whatever he's going through. It's very admirable of you, but it sounds crazy. Hang it out loud. I mean, it doesn't. You have how many kids with him? Two. You have two kids with him. You've been dating this guy for 15 years. I don't think anyone's in a position to judge you for what you are trying to do when it comes to preserving your family. So don't judge yourself. Anyone who's willing to judge you, you know, fuck them.

What do they, you know, what do they know? That being said, you know, you just have to try to really check in with yourself on a regular basis and ask if what you're doing is actually reasonable for yourself. Because again, it's one thing to recognize that you played a role in you and your husband being disconnected. in ways you mistreated your husband and maybe felt made him feel less than or insignificant or completely invalidated and ignored, dismissed, whatever. And maybe he took that and handed it very poorly by seeking out attention, validation,

whatever he needed that he wasn't getting from you and other places. And, you know, good for you for recognizing that. That being said, like this, what we're, what you're really have been talking about is his ability to be incredibly deceitful and lie to you over and

over and over to the point where it's just like, it's so fucking, you know, it's so fucked up because you are, you are, he is stealing your ability to like trust and like give him, and he's so good at the lying where it's just like i don't even know it breaks you down you know and whatever you did in the relationship to him and i'm guessing it was both ways you know but to you for your part like that has nothing to do with his lying in the moment right now or your ability or quite frankly, your inability to trust anything he's saying, you know? And it sounds like you've been incredibly gracious towards him already. I think now you're at a point of you're going to have to make some more difficult decisions.

You're going to have to set some more rigid boundaries. You're co-parenting with this guy. I mean, maybe a separation maybe makes sense because you're right. You're going to drive yourself crazy wondering, and I don't honestly have an answer for you in terms of how you deal with a guy who's still lying to you and how do you figure out if he's willing to lie because you're in a really shitty position

because it must feel, well, I know what it feels like. I know what it's like to have someone be unfaithful to you and express regret and a desire to work on things and in a fucked up way you're thinking yeah fuck you you hurt me i can't could you do this to me but at least you still want to be with me right you know and and yet he's saying that and yet not acting through with that that i don't know what it's like i don't know how to handle that and that must fuck with your ability to trust and so all that being said right now he is going through something it's not i mean it is your problem but you have to try to make it not your problem and i think you need to try to create some separation and some distance from him because he's not going to figure this out

overnight. Right. Yeah. And what I would love to see from you towards him is I'd love for you to keep that kind of almost compassion and empathy towards him and that not reactive behavior as much as you can. I'd love for you to keep demonstrating that towards him while simultaneously creating distance.

You know, it's like, hey, listen, you're going through something. I don't know what it is. Again, you have kids together. So this guy's always going to be in your life. And so you showing him what you're trying to do for yourself, the therapy, not being reactive towards him. And you can point it out from time to time, but that's you just showing him through examples, not words, how you're choosing to let this

very terrible situation impact your life. And you're choosing, as sad as you are, to take control of your life, get into therapy, try to really reflect on what you could have done differently, the things that you can control, and whether it's with him or some other person in the future, you're dedicated to be a better partner, it sounds like. And so I think that's something that you really need to hold on to. And I think you should pat yourself on the back, you know, but like, you should acknowledge that, that you're really trying here. You're still a young woman. You still got your looks. You still got a life, a lot of life in front of you. And as sad as this is, you know, you will recover from it,

you know, and you don from it, you know, and you don't have an answer right now of whether it's going to be with him or not. And quite frankly, what sucks is that right now it's kind of outside of your control because you don't even know what he really wants or what he's capable of. Right. Because I'm sure he's even maybe from speaking from some truth when one day he's like, I want a divorce. The next day he's like, I don't want to lose you. Clearly he doesn't know what he wants. Yeah. And he said that to me. He doesn't know what makes him happy. But what we do know is that in the meantime,

he's self-centered. He's a liar. And that his inability to make himself happy has given him permission to be thoughtless and inconsiderate to everyone in his life, including his children. Right. And I think you do have to, despite wanting to give him grace and sympathy, you have to hold him accountable for that. Right. And holding him accountable for that, if nothing else, might just you being creating some distance and saying, listen, I don't feel safe around you because I don't trust you.

And I've caught you lying to me convincingly way too many times. And I'm going to keep working on me because again, regardless of what happens to us, I don't want to be the type of person I was to you. And I don't want to be that person to you anymore. I don't want your lies to steal what I've accomplished so much already in these few short months. Like I'm going to be a better person for this. I'm going to be a better partner with this. I've always wanted it to be with you, but like right now you seem incapable of wanting to do that with me. So I need us to take some time apart, you know, call it whatever you want, a separation. You don't have to get divorced, whatever, but like

you need to separate and you need to let him, if he wants to go talk to this woman, I think you should assume the worst. And I don't know, I don't know how you're going to be able to get to a place where you can trust him again. Maybe that's where couples therapy comes in down the road. But right now, I don't know what couples therapy is going to do as much as he really needs to get into his own therapy and figure out what he's doing. I'm not saying if he was like, hey, let's go to couples therapy right now. I mean, I guess I would say go, but I would go, I would be very open with your couples therapist about where you're at and how, to be honest, I'm here because obviously I want to make it work, but I don't feel safe around him because he's he's lied to me

so many times that and and convincingly that i i just assume he's always lying now and i honestly don't know how to get to a place where i to protect myself i don't know how to not assume he's being uh he's that he's lying right yeah i just i want you to stop being so afraid to lose them i guess more than anything yeah i think that's my biggest my biggest um fear and i guess it's not just our relationship why is that your biggest fear i mean i get the obvious right yeah i guess it's just um i'm sorry just our family we've like as tough as it's been we've been through a lot together it's been a lot like we've been together since high school it's just a long it's just a big part of my life yeah and now we have a family we just bought

our first house together and just like losing it it's just scary yeah no i i wish i could say something that would make it comforting but yeah um yeah i just uh yeah it is it is scary um yeah i'm just reminded of you know i had this we mentioned this in the show but i was explaining to natalie because right now natalie and i um the past several months months, we've had our ups and downs. But just our lives in general, we've had a hell of a year. Personally, professionally, life's been grand. There's been plenty of stresses. There's stresses every day in my life.

But big picture wise, we're very grateful for what our life has brought us recently. It's been awesome. grateful for what our life has brought us recently. It's been awesome. But I've learned in life that no matter what, what we're experiencing right now will be temporary and we're going to have to deal with a low. I don't know where that's going to come from. Hopefully not what you're dealing with. I'm just saying life throws you very unexpected turns sometimes and it sucks. And sometimes it feels like it happens at the worst time right when you guys bought your first house uh you know what i'm saying like wish we could have you must be thinking i wish i would have found out before we'd done this so i didn't have to fall in love

with our first house and create all these memories only to like risk losing it but i have just learned that you you will get through it you will get through it and it sucks and there's nothing I or anyone else can say that's gonna like make the the potential that your relationship thought you had but what I have learned through therapy is this like you are you are gonna you are mourning right now something that never really existed You got to recognize as hard as it is that your husband was being unfaithful and deceitful towards you before you bought this house. That you guys were in this very broken relationship that was full of disconnectedness

and you were roommates long before he probably ever cheated on you. And that's not to make you feel bad. We often make bad situations worse when we, again, glorify what we lost. And that's not to make you feel bad. We often make bad situations worse when we, again, glorify what we lost. And it's going to be very easy for you to glorify like our family. We've worked so hard. We've been through so much. We bought this first house together. And those are all true things. But in reality, you were probably very sad for a long period of time in this relationship, both of you. You were probably lonely in this relationship for a long period of time in this relationship, both of you, you know, you were probably lonely in this relationship for a long period of time, both of you, you know,

and you need to also recognize when you're mourning the potential loss of your house and all these other things that you're also, you also have to recognize that you're losing that and potentially gaining the opportunity to find peace and happiness in some other place because you weren't finding it with your husband for so long. Right. And whatever you guys have done together, you do have kids together. You will be in each other's lives. And I have seen couples break up and come together as parents for the sake of their

children and each other and only to recognize that, you know, especially you two met in high school. You're both completely different people. And you're able to appreciate each other as human beings and respect to the hell of each other as co-parents, even though you failed as lovers and as partners. I don't know if that's what's going to happen with you and your husband. But I think as you start thinking about your future and start considering what decisions you're making, you really have to see your relationship for what it was and not what you want to remember it to be. No, you're right. I don't want to lose. I know I don't want to also lose myself in trying to make excuses or make something work that not. Right now, it's not safe for you to trust him. Right. myself in trying to make excuses or make something work that not.

Yeah. Right now he's not, it's not safe for you to trust him. And you're going to lose your, you're going to lose your mind trying to question whether you can and all your mental energy and focus is going to go towards that. And you're going to affect your progress and the things that you've done for yourself because you're only human, you know, like I could see you trying to trust him again, him lying to you again, and then you losing it. And so I think that's something you really have to consider or protect. And I think right now it's a safer for you to assume he's lying and not to trust him than to try to convince yourself that this time he really means

it. I think he has a long way to go in terms of self-discovery and learning. And again, I don't have an answer of how you, of what he needs to do or what needs to happen for you to safely trust him again. I just feel like as a friend, it doesn't sound like right now you can. So for you to continue to try to trust him is only going to lead you down a path of just real toxic, negative behavior. And that will affect your kids. You know, at least you guys, you saying to him, listen, like, I love you. And from the bottom of my heart, I still, as crazy as it sounds, and despite what has happened between us and the fact that I don't trust you at all as a person, I want to be with you.

But right now, I can't trust you. It's not safe for me or our kids for me to trust you. But right now I've, I can't trust you. It's not safe for me or our kids for us to try for me to trust you. And I need to keep working on myself because no, I don't know what's going to happen between us, but I am committed to not let this situation make me a worse person. I'm committed to make it a better person, a better mother, a better partner. And I want to do that for you because again, I know while it's your fault, you cheated on me. It's, it's our fault that we lost touch. And for that part, I am working on myself to be a better partner for whoever really wants to be a better partner to me. And I don't know if you're capable of being that person right now. And so we need

our space and you go do whatever it is you need to do. You want to talk to like, you know what I'm saying? Give them that fucking freedom. Fuck them. You know, give them, show him. I want you to start showing him how you are going to be okay without him because you will, even though if you don't want to be okay without him, I want him to start seeing strength in you. I want him to see you starting to pick up the pieces of your life. I want you to stop pleading and begging with him. I want you to stop asking and checking his phone and you know what I'm saying? Just assume he's doing that shit and focus on what you need to do and figure out it. And if you're going to trust him again, it's not because you're like, are you still cheating on me or you're still doing this? It's him coming to you and saying, I would like an opportunity to show you that you can trust me again because I really am done.

point. You might be further down the line where it's just like, honestly, I'm so healed and I'm so good and you've lied to me so many times. I don't think I can do that and we should get a divorce. You're entitled to that. Maybe you won't. I don't know. But I think it's really, right now you're in this place of fear of losing him and you are still acting like it's your job to fix this relationship. And you are the one who is finding out different ways to fix this relationship. And he's not doing any of that. And he's not doing that because quite frankly, you're doing it. Yeah, you're right. So I would like for you, if you can, to accept what happened as hard as it is,

hold him accountable for what he did, not make excuses for him. You can still have empathy for him without making excuses for him. And people in your shoes really struggle with knowing the difference between the two of those. Right. Yeah. No, that makes sense. So have that empathy, but do not be afraid of losing him. Because right now, the only thing you are losing is someone who is not capable of giving the love to you and your children that you deserve. It's not a safe and healthy environment for you or your kids. And you have no reason to trust him. And it's only going to make you lose your mind. Right. Yeah. So let him see all the healthy things that you're doing, the ways that you are determined to not let this dictate your life, the therapy,

and not being reactive to him as much as you can. You assume the worst and see what he does with that. But in the meantime, you say, we need our distance. I need some space. We need to separate. I think you should move out because of X, Y, or Z, because you've lied to me too many times. And I don't know what the future holds. I know what I want. I want to be with you. But I can no longer be the only person trying to fix this relationship. Right now, I'm just trying to fix myself and protect our kids. And that's, and that's where my energy is going. And if in the future we're able to come back together, then fine.

But if not, I'm going to move on. And I think he needs to really see you accept the reality that you're okay with moving on from him as sad as it makes you feel. Because I don't think, I don't think he's afraid of that right now. He's seen you put up with what he's doing so much that even though he knows he's fucking up and he's seeing you mad, you have shown him way too many times your willingness to forgive him and be patient with him in ways that he doesn't deserve. And I think he needs to see a different approach. Yeah, I agree.

I mean, I don't think he's as much as like you said, I've pleaded and begged over the last couple months. Like I agree. I think him realizing I can do it by myself is something he needs to see too. Yeah. All right. Well, i'm so sorry thank you and thank you for your help uh was this helpful it was it was um i i do drive i have been driving myself crazy yeah with this phone with his location with everything stop with all that i know it's hard but just assume he's doing it, you know?

Okay. Yeah. Just like he's sick. I mean, I mean, but he is a broken person right now. And again, that's not for you to make excuses for his actions. That's just for, so you don't stop driving yourself crazy, asking yourself that those why questions, the why questions is, I don't know. He's not happy. He's in a healthy, you know, he's, I don't know, hasn't dealt with his bullshit, his childhood trauma, whatever. So accept that, be sad about it, but don't make excuses for him and don't, and that's not for you to like, to overcompensate for him. He is an adult man. If he doesn't know what he's doing is fucked up, then I wouldn't even waste your time. So

he knows what he's doing. He's capable. He's intelligent. He's an adult. If he wants to be destructive, then he let him be destructive, but it is not your job to save him or your family. He needs to do that. It's your job to work on yourself and protect your family and your kids and the best possible way you have, you can. And it's his job to figure out whether he wants to be in this relationship or well, and he needs to show you through his actions you can't do his job for him right yeah no you're right okay okay well thank you all right well i'm so sorry you're going through this uh please give us an update on how things progress but i will um all right

okay thank you guys get mad a little bit i I know you are, but yeah, you can get mad. Stop checking his phone. Stop doing that shit. Stop doing the things that drive yourself crazy and keep doing what you're doing in the therapy department and keep focusing on being a better partner and let yourself know I'm going to be okay. I really am because you will. I promise.

I really promise. Thank you. All right I really promise thank you alright okay thank you so much alright take care bye thanks for listening don't forget to send those questions at asknickatthevilefiles.com we'll see you tomorrow bye