The Viall Files - E715 Ask Nick with Dr. Nicole LePera - His D*ck Was Too Good

Episode Date: March 4, 2024

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Ask Nick Edition! This is a special one as we invite Dr. Nicole LePera to chime in on your burning questions. Before we get to our callers, Dr. Nicole Lepera shares her general advice on modern dating, her journey to becoming a psychologist, and her experience being in a throuple. Then we get to our callers…  Our first caller is ‘d*ckmatized’ by her ex. After multiple dates with other men, she can’t get over the chemistry and convenience she had in her previous situation. Our second caller found her husband on Grindr, a gay dating app. She’s thinking of getting a divorce, but doesn’t want to out his sexuality to his family. Our final caller has already decided she wants a divorce, but is unsure how to tell her husband. They have kids, he has a drinking problem, and she hasn't reached out to an attorney yet. What should her timeline be? “Give yourself a moment to maybe try on not being ok for just a second” Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: https://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice, send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line!  To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: FirstLeaf - Join Firstleaf today, a wine club that really gets you. Go to https://www.tryfirstleaf.com/VIALL  Vessi - Vessi's got you covered. From chic city walks to adventurous treks, find the perfect pair for your lifestyle at https://www.vessi.com/VIALL to get 15% off your first order. ShipStation - Get a 60-day free trial at https://www.shipstation.com and use code viallfiles. Thanks to ShipStation for sponsoring the show! BetterHelp - Learn to make time for what makes you happy. Visit https://www.betterhelp.com/VIALL today to get 10% off your first month. Factor- Head to https:www.factormeals.com/VIALL50 and use code VIALL50 to get 50% off. Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @the.holistic.psychologist @alison.vandam @dereklanerussell

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gets you. Go to tryfirstleaf.com slash V-I-A-L-L to get your first box of wines. That's tryfirstleaf.com slash V-I-A-L-L-T-R-Y-F-I-R-S-T-L-E-A-F.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Again, that's tryfirstleaf.com slash V-I-A-L-L-T-R-Y-F-I-R-S-T-L-E-A-F.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Again, that's tryfirstleaf.com slash V-I-A-L-L. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to a very special episode of the Vile Files Ask Nick edition. I am your host, and we have a very special guest today. The one and only, you probably have heard of her, seen her online. Dr. Nicole LaPera is with us today to help us answer some Ask Nick Caller questions and to talk about her new book. Thanks for coming, Dr. Nicole. It's great to have you.

Thank you for having me, Nick. Well, you have been very well known on the internet with a lot of the work that you're doing. And it's nice to have an actual psychologist with us. Usually we're just answering questions and we're just winging it as friends. But I'd love for the people who aren't familiar with you, how did you get your start? And what are some of the, I guess with different psychologists or therapists, they lean or focus on different aspects of psychology. How did you get your start and what are you most known for and what are you most passionate about when it comes to psychology and relationships? I would say I had a big shift in terms of myself individually, professionally. So being trained very traditionally, clinically, in terms of the model, believing the mind is so powerful. CBT here is really our gold standard. And as long as I can remember, super fascinated

in individuals and people really wanting to understand, of course, myself, understand others. So marched along to become a psychologist, a doctor of understanding or so I thought, opened up what was a very successful practice. I was living in Philadelphia at the time. And several years in, I started to feel really disempowered and really frustrated with the work that I was doing because I was working with people at that point for several years that would come in very dedicated clients week after week, super insightful. And I continued to hear reports of stuckness, of just repeated patterns, endless suffering. No one really could create any of the change that they were looking to create. And so for me, feeling really disempowered kind of sent me online, I think, which would allow us to like, what's going on here? Like, why isn't this helping? I mean, I'd been I began to call myself the holistic psychologist to really integrate the whole experience, I think, of being human that has been left out of the traditional model. So now you hear me talk a lot about the body, nervous system, nutrition, health, and how much of a role that plays in terms of our mental wellness. That's great. And your book is called How to Be the Love You Seek, which is a great title, by the way. We talk a lot about it on the show and I'll get people

calling in. And a lot of times if they're in a situation ship or a bad relationship or they're a new relationship, one question I often ask them is, how do you like how this person makes you feel and things like that? Because I always find that people are so quick to list off these kind of checklist things and these kind of almost resume type of builders and relationships. And yet they don't seem to be thinking a lot about the type of love they want to receive from someone. They'll talk about, oh, I want this and this kind of a storybook relationship. But is that kind of in line with what your book is about and how people can go about finding the love that they actually are seeking? I mean, such a wise question there, Nick, in terms of even locating ourselves in a relationship. And

I mean, when I say that is I think so many of us do go into a relationship, whether we're looking for the checklist of external features or whether we're simply looking to be picked. I don't even care how I feel. I just want to make sure you're going to call me back and you want to see me again, you know, or maybe I even know that I'm not into this, but I want to make sure you're going to call me back and you want to see me again, you know, or maybe I even know that I'm not into this, but I want to make sure you're into me. And the reason I think all of this is so common and very few of us actually kind of say, well, what is it? How do I feel? Is we all rely on the earliest model of relating or relationship that we learned in childhood. So for many different, of course, individual reasons, contextual factors, very few of us have been taught by our earliest caregivers that internal reflection point, even the ability to locate ourselves in a body that has emotions

that could attune to them and discover and be curious about how I might feel. And then, of course, to use those feelings to inform my choices. Instead, what we learned in childhood was to look for external factors that meant some sort of thing. We look to be picked because again, we probably didn't feel picked or maybe we felt abandoned in childhood and we're looking to kind of absolve that wound or to make that wound feel better. So a lot of my work is about the earliest impact and the earliest conditioning, and especially in relationships, that's really predominant. That's something I learned through my own therapy, just through childhood traumas and things like that. And even though I identify as someone who had a really

good childhood, my therapist would still like to peel back the layers because it's like, no matter what, we all have experienced disappointment trauma of some kind in childhood but you seem to be a big believer that we all have the power to heal ourselves from whatever trauma we might experience a how would one go about doing that and more importantly how does one maybe identify the trauma they have and i know i'm asking multiple questions at once last part of that question is we are often a society of people who like to be fixers and things like that. So how do we separate maybe identifying our partner having past trauma, but holding them accountable for their own trauma and not trying to fix it? Because I think we now live in a world where we have books

like yours and the internet. We are more informed about all our relationship plights and attachment styles and things like that. But I think that sometimes has an adverse effect because it gives us the fixers more tools to be like, well, let me talk about your attachment style. Let me talk about this. Like, so how does one go about doing all of that? So to really simplify, as I often do, change.

I believe it happens in two steps, two stages. The first step being we become aware or become conscious of what's currently creating our life. And what I'm referring to is that autopilot, all of those subconscious habits and patterns, kind of like I even talked about the way we enter relationships. What are we looking at? What are we assessing? All of that typically are habits we learned. So we can't create change or make new choices until we see the choices that we're currently making. Because for so many of us, this happens so outside of our awareness, we don't even notice that we can be an agent of change, that things don't just happen to us,

that we can actually say, no, I'm going to make new choices that are outside of my habit. And then that becomes the second step. When I see the habits that I'm repeating, then I can make new choices, new choices that are more aligned with the world, the relationship, whatever it is that I ultimately want to create. But without that presence awareness of kind of what is the path that I'm bringing forward, we don't ever have that opportunity. And I think to talk to the second piece of things, all of the helpers and information, right? There's a lot of information out there and I think it can be incredibly valuable. What we ultimately, I think, instinctually do, especially if we're struggling in a relationship, we go to use that information, just like you said, to change how someone else is showing up so that

ultimately I can feel differently in this relationship without seeing all of the different ways that our own past, our own childhood, our own beliefs, this conditioned way we've learned to be, even sometimes the role that we're playing in a relationship is so much from our past and isn't necessarily the responsibility of the person in front of us. So as we become clear, I think, on kind of where we are, what isn't serving us, as we focus first on ourself to explore that, then we give ourself the possibility to make new choices. That's great. Other than obviously entering into therapy and protecting our mental health, what are some steps that maybe someone might get from your book on how to implement some of those positive changes? The first step, and you'll always hear me talk about this, is to become conscious or to become aware because so many of us are not paying attention

throughout our day and building that kind of foundational state of awareness in our mind, right? Learning how to show up in action and embodiment and tune into what are the thoughts going on through my head at any given moment? What are the sensations happening in my body? So foundationally, that means, and I mean, we could set an alarm on our phone, we could set a post-it note as a reminder to at some point in our day, set up what I call a conscious moment check-in. So instead of being endlessly distracted, worried about other people, lost in our mind, worrying about yesterday, thinking about tomorrow, whatever it is, just become present to what's here, right? So when that alarm goes off, when you see that post-it note, just to notice, right? What are the thoughts going on in my mind? What is the story that I'm telling myself? What am I lost in thought thinking about, dropping down into my body? What's happening in my body in terms of sensations? Are my muscles relaxed at ease? Are they tense? How is my breathing? How is my heart rate? Beginning to locate ourself in the conscious moment. That is,

I think, the most practical foundational step that we can use as leverage to now make new choices in that moment. Because otherwise, we're filtering the world through certain narratives that are causing certain instinctual reactions in our body. And before we know it, we're reacting in that old habitual way. So until we interrupt that chain by being present in the moment where I'm narrating something that might be inaccurate, where I'm feeling an emotion, we're not going to be able to make that new choice. Interesting. A topic we often discuss on the show is infidelity, which is rampant in relationships these days. It seems to be increasing like ever before. I kind of say we're like in this disposable society, even fashion relationships, it's all fast fashion, fast relationships, dating apps,

and things like that. And obviously, I think when it comes to infidelity if someone steps out of the relationship on you it seemed you know it's a valid reason to leave that being said you know like the more understanding i've done or just you know that's not always the case with some people you know and being someone like yourself who you know talks about one's ability to heal from their past trauma. And not that there's ever an excuse for infidelity, but past trauma, that unresolved issues from someone might cause them to act out of character in a certain way. What are your thoughts on infidelity in general? And for the people who find out their partner cheated on them, what do you recommend that person does if they still want to be open to trying to fix that relationships? And how do they even know if they should be trying to

fix it? Because the ego can come in and say, well, I want to fix it because I don't want to feel embarrassed and things like that. But is it even fixable? How does someone identify that? I think you're even very wisely sharing it. A lot of factors cause infidelity. What I know doesn't cause it is, I think, again, a very common belief, which is if you just loved me enough. A lack of love, in my opinion, at least, doesn't cause infidelity. There might be dynamic issues in the relationship, communication issues, conflict. There might be dysfunctional habits, but that's not the cause of why someone would step out of a relationship, in my opinion.

Usually it's rooted, I'm sure you're not surprised for me to say this, in childhood and insecurity and something that this infidelity experience is giving the emotion, is meeting the need of the person. Of course, that doesn't make it okay. And I think we all have different boundaries in our relationships in terms of how much space we're willing to give someone to explore outside of the relationship, with some of us, the answer being none. There is no room or space for infidelity. So I don't think that there's a one-size-fits-all model in terms of how to know if this is the breach that would cause the end of the relationship. I think it's really an individual decision. What I, again, do know is if and when infidelity happens, again, going back to this idea of it's not helpful to take responsibility

for the infidelity, nor is it helpful to take responsibility for the change on the other side of it, right? So we didn't cause the infidelity and we're not going to be able to play that person's part in shifting the dynamic if something does have to change once an infidelity is discovered. So communication, I think, is so important. Us getting really clear if we were the ones that were cheated on or violated in whatever way it is, what boundaries and what we are willing to tolerate. If we do want to try to rebuild that trust and if we are willing to do our side of the thing, the fence without taking responsibility because the other person who caused the infidelity will have to show up and earn back

that trust and show alignment and rebuild. And that's nothing that, I mean, we could play a part in that, but it's not our responsibility. situation is a wake-up call of, holy shit, this isn't the person I want to be, and almost disgusted with their own actions, but yet they found themselves in a compromised situation. How does one separate the two? While it, I think, can be very appealing in the moment, especially if we do want the relationship to continue, maybe we do have some beliefs around longevity of relationship or divorce or whatever it is that we don't want. beliefs around longevity of relationship or divorce or, you know, or, you know, whatever it is that we don't want. We don't want ultimately the relationship to end because if we have those

beliefs of, right, we might convince ourselves that things are changing when they're not. So saying that to say, believing the consistency of action afterward in a moment of upset, if we don't want the relationship to end, and if we're hearing from this other person what we want to hear, we can be overtaken by emotion and hope and believe the fantasy. But more importantly, what happens next? Does this person consistently then show up in action in alignment with wanting to build trust and security? And again, that could be different what we need in each of those areas for us. I mean, some of us might want more transparent communication. Some of us might need different actions of support within the relationship and us getting clear on that without the hope, believing what is happening in front of us.

Interesting. Well, thank you for sharing that. I guess maybe there's a general final question I have before we get to our callers and thank you for answering my questions is like, what do you see is the biggest relationship challenge that people are facing mean, I think we have an epidemic of adults who continue to rely on these childhood roles that we've had to play to gain the security, the connection, the belonging that we didn't have. And I think quite globally, very few of us as adults know who we are, know how to be ourself in relationship, know how to kind of navigate life with a different individual. We don't know how to resolve conflict. We don't know how to kind of navigate life with a different individual we don't know how to resolve conflict we don't know how to repair after conflict so i think really generally we struggle to relate to other people because we're relying on childhood habits that were created in an environment where our needs weren't met where we didn't have the safety and the security that we needed to be

who we are so we continue to rely on these adaptations which is why so many of us grow up and we aren't fulfilled in our relationships we don't feel supported we don't feel seen we don't truly feel belonged even if we're in relationships and i lied i have one more question that came up we have a lot of women who call in a lot of women listen to the show and while i think therapy in general is becoming more normalized, even for men, men seem to be more resistant than women, just from our purview. You know, a lot of women are like, I'm trying to get my male partner into therapy. partner might benefit from therapy or couples therapy, what would be a way to maybe communicate that to allow their partner to feel safer about entering the therapy? Or is it just, you know, up to them to get into it and there's nothing we can say or do to maybe make that change a little

bit more easier for them to do? Well, two things. I think we can communicate from our perspective what we imagine the benefit of this therapeutic experience would be, especially if it's like a version of kind of couples therapy, which I imagine would be the case for a lot of people. So we could directly kind of share our perspective, our wants and our needs. And we could then directly ask and be curious, because I think sometimes we might just sense or maybe it's very clear that the person that we're dating, maybe the guy that we're dating is completely shut down, but we could get curious as to why. What is coming up? Is there something that therapy is bringing to mind? Did they have a past experience with therapy? Is it emotions in general? Because this comes up a lot in relationship. We want someone to tell us the truth, be authentically themselves, share with us, develop this emotional intimacy, though we don't create the environment where the person feels safe to express themselves. So I think that happens a lot in relationships, especially across gender too, where there could be a very legit reason why someone you're dating might be closed

off. Maybe not therapy, maybe emotions in general. Maybe it's based in their childhood where they were emotionally overwhelmed and no one helped them understand emotions. So now you're talking about going to an emotional doctor, right? Now I'm just scared. But what you're saying is resistance or maybe I badmouth therapy and I say, oh, who needs that? Right. But in reality, there is something deeper. It's insecurity. When we understand that, I think then we could be more compassionate support in perhaps getting our partner through the door in a mutually shared venture that could be helpful. are in a throuple. I'm very interested in non-traditional relationships. I am currently. You are.

I am. I have some friends in open relationships and things like that. And what I have found just in general with people in non-traditional relationships is that they often are very healthy in a way because they require so much communication. What led you to be in a throuple? What are some misconceptions of it? And, you know, what benefits and how does one make that work? So evolving my relationship, expanding it, becoming a throuple that I am now was definitely not the relationship trajectory that I'd been on. I'd been a serial monogamist. I was married, previously divorced, remarried, still with the person I married to for over a decade now. And nowhere

would you ever heard me have talked about, desired, opened a relationship that was not in my past. And then my current partner, Lolly, and I had met, who would now become the third, several years ago now, professionally, personally developed a relationship. And several years in, it was actually the third person, her name is Jenna, who brought the topic to the table after coming to the awareness that she was feeling attracted to both myself and my other partner, Lolly, and wanted to bring it up. We were working together, so there was becoming a little bit of conflict where things weren't being spoken about because feelings were being had. Anyway, long story short, when approached with this conversation,

Lolly and I having been on a dedicated journey of both individual and relational healing, really just trying to figure out who we are and be ourselves together while building a future, have been always committed to wanting each of us to be authentic, whatever that means. And so when the conversation came to the table about this attraction, and I was able to be honest with myself that I had had attraction there myself, and Lolly was as well. Really the three of us blindly went into exploration like, hmm, what is this? Never even knew the word throuple. I literally, the three of us Googled it that time period. I mean, I'm human. My first thought was, does anyone else do this? Do I have permission to do this if someone else does it? Right. Because I never had any model of this type of relationship. So really going into it blindly, experimenting. Of course, there are there was interesting dynamics in place, being in a kind of relationship base, myself and Lolly, and then letting kind of having a new partner come in.

and Lolly and then letting kind of having a new partner come in. While I would say, yes, it creates the opportunity for a lot of healing and health. There are a lot of challenges. And I would be, you know, inauthentic if I, you know, was saying that there aren't a lot of moments where I mean, there's jealousy. There's two individuals now who activate different wounds. There's two individuals who meet different needs, which would then obviously cause jealousy on the third party. So there's a lot in there. For me, the shift in my relationship is so aligned with just kind of the work

that I'm consistently doing, which is trying to just create space in myself, in my life to be and embrace who I am. So on that journey still, they're settling into, again, navigating a dynamic with two uniquely different individuals. It brings a lot of opportunity for growth. It's interesting. Well, thank you for sharing. Her book is called How to Be the Love You Seek. It's available now anywhere you get books, audiobooks, Kindles, things like that. Are you ready to help answer a few caller questions?

I look forward to it. Let's do it. All right. Well, before we do, as you know, send in those questions at AskNick at TheVal Files.com. For all things Ask Nick, texting, office hours, mediation, you know the drill. And it's time to get to our callers. Question time with Nick. Let's ask Nick your sexy questions. How's it going?

Hi, I'm Stacy and I'm 42 and I am digmatized by my ex. Okay, you're digmatized by your ex. There we go. Tell us more. How long has this person been your ex? So we dated on and off for about two years. We first dated exclusively for eight months, like very intense relationship. Like we're exclusive within two weeks. But I am divorced with two kids and he was very scared of being a stepdad and having two kids.

And so we broke up after about eight months, which was his choice. But we had a really amazing physical connection. And so we then started a friends with benefits situation with very clear boundaries. What were those clear boundaries? I'm curious. And who set them? Together. We talked together and we set them together. Okay. How did he break up with you? We actually, um, he came over to my house and well, first off, like earlier in the week, he told me that he was worried that he couldn't become a stepfather. And that wasn't really what

I was asking him to be anyways. Like it wasn't anything that I really had asked him for. Like we had only been dating for eight months. He'd met my kids. We both said, I love you, but it wasn't something where we were talking about moving in together, getting married, anything like that at that point. But he was really anxious about it. And so he told me that we talked about like taking kids off the table, that he wouldn't hang around the kids for a little bit. But then later that week he came over to my house and he told me he just like, didn't want kids at all. Like my kids or anyone else's kids. Okay. But again, you never asked him to be any type of parental part of their life?

Nope. Okay. I did not. But then one day he showed up and said, I can't be- I have a very awful ex-husband. Okay. And so co-parenting is not something that's a great situation for me. I have a lot of PTSD from co-parenting with my ex-husband.

Sorry, you have to deal with that. But nevertheless, you didn't ask him to co-parent at all. I did not. And then he came in, he was like, hey, I don't think we should be in a committed relationship. Did you immediately talk about being friends with benefits or was that later on? We broke up in the beginning of October and we started being friends with benefits right before New Year's Eve. Okay. And who initiated that conversation? We both were out at a bar because we live a 10-minute walk from each other and we

talked about that we could one time have sex and see how that worked um we didn't do it that night we waited until we were completely sober the next day and then did have that one day and then afterwards we said like that felt really good. Like if we wanted to continue it, what would be the parameters around that? And like the parameters were that we would not be getting back together. Like if we were having sex, like that it was clear, like asked and answered that that wasn't going to be a situation that we would both do what we needed to move on, that we would date other people if that's what we wanted, but like that it was just the physical part. Did you feel that was possible for you at that point?

I wasn't really sure, but because we set such clear parameters, it really did make it easier. And I didn't have questions about like, is this really something more? Because I knew it wasn't more. So it sounds like the only real boundary you guys set when it sounds like he said it really more than anyone, which was even though we're going to have sex. I met what I said a few months ago, which is I don't want to be in a relationship with you and I want to be upfront about that. And you seem to accept that. Right. Is that would that be accurate? Yep.

Okay. So- That is correct, yeah. What's the... I mean, so it sounds like maybe that those boundaries he said aren't serving you. What's the problem? No. So we ended up being in a friends with benefits situation and it lasted a full year. Okay. At the end of the year, we're like, this has lasted a lot longer than we expected. Would we consider getting back together? Who asked that? You both did or you did?

We both talked about it together. Um, we actually had really very good communication and I was more open to it, but he was not. Um, and he said that he felt like this is probably not going to last for much longer because it was probably holding us back because we were actually doing this monogamously for the full year. Like we were going on other dates, but we, neither of us had slept with other people during that year. Gotcha. And so then at the beginning of January, we were going to check in, meet up. And he said, I've been on a couple of dates with this girl.

I'm going to see how this pans out. So let's, let's stop having sex right now. Okay. All right. He basically cut off the friends with benefits. Correct. Yeah. And how long ago was that? The beginning of January. Okay. And now you're just like missing the D or like what's other than, other than being sad about that, you know, some good sex ran its course. Like, what are you having a hard time with? I guess is my big question.

Like how can we help? Yeah. Yeah. So my problem is that when he ended it and we ended the friends with benefits situation, it was also kind of apparent that he was just not in a place to be in a committed relationship because it was more that he was scared than he was really not wanting kids. I mean, he's just scared of commitment. He's 42 year old man who has never been married, no kids. So I said like, even if he wanted to get back together after this girl, like I'm not open to that. So I like, I cut it off at that point emotionally as well. And so I've been dating other people and I've

had sex with a couple other people and it is just not good compared to the sex that I had with my ex. And it just like, I either get the ick and just like, don't want to see them because the sex just isn't anywhere near as good. And I don't know how to move forward if all I can think of is like, oh, this is just not as good as the sex with my ex was. And so that's what I'm asking for help with. What I'm hearing so much, I think, is really common in terms of what we become attracted to. And I think a lot of us become attracted to those the fireworks feeling, whether it's the sexual chemistry, the emotional chemistry, that that really big high. And I think it's really understandable then that we compare

that experience to all of our other possibilities. So saying that to say, I think, A, it's natural. I want to normalize that kind of tendency to compare. And B, I think it would be really helpful to maybe explore a little deeper because I'm interested in the shift that you said first right here you heard someone who's not willing to have children a part of their relationship so that was kind of a deal breaker for you and then you it seems like you shift it so what is it I guess was it the nature and the quality of the sex that allowed you to shift when you were like oh I would maybe consider a future partnership with this person? I mean, we always had like a really great relationship. And so I think I was holding on to that. Like we never had a single fight during the two years that we were together.

We would all, we would have disagreements, but we would communicate through them. Like he met all the needs that I wanted and more than I even knew that I wanted when I started dating him after my divorce. And so that's what I was holding on to. And that if he could get over the, like his commitment issues and the fact that he runs away, like I'd be very open to that. Other than the great sex, what are your relationship needs? I mean, I want someone who understands me, that makes me feel safe, that is there for me emotionally when I'm dealing with things with my kids. Like I, my kids are eight and 10. I know that if a stepfather is going to be brought in or someone's going to be brought into the picture, they're not going to go to that person. And my kid's emotional center

is me. And so he was very supportive and helpful to me through all of that and really understanding through all of that, like being a really good person. And that- Like in terms of like when you were- This is kind of sound kind of- I mean, so like if you were kids, if you were having a hard time parenting, your kids were acting up, it sounds like maybe he was just like a good listener. And when it came to like you venting about any frustration you had around parenting. Yeah.

Because he wasn't like, again, he wasn't really involved. And he was really supportive with some things that happened with my ex-husband. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah. So he just kind of listened. Yeah.

And then he's really smart and we had great fun conversations. We talked all the time, even during the friends with benefits situation, we would talk for a couple hours before we would have sex. And we honestly, like being a single mom, the fact that he lived 10 minute walk away and we could just go out for an hour easily. That really was wonderful. Yeah. These other men that you've had sex with since him, like are we, how many, and why did you decide to have sex with them? I had sex with two guys. I had good social connections with them. We'd been on a couple of dates before we had sex.

And I do have the physical needs. And so that was why. Okay. I guess what I'm hearing is just like, you've probably heard me talk about this before. It sounds like you had something really good with this other guy who met like a lot of things that you were looking for, but definitely didn't meet all your needs, you know? And like it ran its course. And now, and you were disappointed and you had some good sex and, you know, sexual chemistry

is important. These other guys you were intimate with, you know, didn't add up to this other guy. That's not uncommon you know not everyone's you're gonna have the same chemistry with but maybe just a little more patient yeah you had good sex but just you know it's like every time we break up with someone we get sad we go on a couple dates those dates tend not to live up to our expectation and that will make us glorify the person or relationship that we lost. Even though, you know, this, this guy that you,

you were dictum, I'm digmatized by, like, it sounds like, you know, you hear the story, but as great as he was, you were still settling when it came to like your overall emotional needs.

Like, it sounds like your ex-husband was so bad that this guy, it was only going to get, go up from there. And he was pretty, you know, he, he checked a lot of convenient boxes, you know, and even

though he wasn't meeting some of your emotional needs, he didn't really get in the way, you know, almost. It's like the fact that he was almost, you know, 10 minutes away. He was very convenient. You know, he was there to listen, but he didn't want to overstep. But also like, and you were fine with him not, you know, being there in certain areas. But it sounds like maybe you're looking for a little bit more when it comes to a partner. Like, are you hoping to, you know, enter in a monogamous relationship that's something you can build over time and maybe down the line, they build a connection or relation with your kids? I mean, it doesn't sound like you're looking for a stepdad. Right. I mean, it doesn't sound like you're looking for a stepdad. Right. I'm not.

Which I think for a lot of potential partners is probably, you know, a relief. You know, it's like, hey, you have kids, whatever. And that's not always the case for some single parents. It's like, hey, I kind of need someone to help, you know, but you're not even asking that. So I think it sounds like maybe you're just like, you're almost still mourning the loss of this guy you had, despite not a relationship, you had a relationship with him, you know, and a year is a long time with anyone.

And even though you guys weren't dating, like you said, yeah, you went on some dates, but you really, you really weren't have intimate with anyone else. And so you guys can call it what you want, but you had a relationship with this guy and now it's over and it's sad and you're having a hard time, you know, following through with the boundary you're trying to set, which is like, hey, even if you come back, you know, I know that this is going nowhere and I can't keep doing this. So I have to end it, which is hard. And he probably will come back, unless he ends up marrying this girl when that relationship ran its course, he's 10 minutes down the street,

he's gonna pop in and just be curious if that boundary you set is still enforceable. And that's just a challenge. And I feel like maybe just patience is, I feel like I'm not, we're not giving that hard, but it's like, you know, I think you just, maybe just a little bit of patience and understanding that, like Dr. Nicole said, like what you're feeling is pretty normal. And I think you're saying something really important here, Nick, which is every time you have an encounter, a date, and it doesn't live up to what it was with him, now there's another wave of mourning.

So it's like you're reopening the loss in a sense each time you're reminded that the person you're currently with isn't giving you the feeling that he did. And I think the other thing I want to offer in terms of sexual chemistry, it is possible to cultivate it, to create it, to build it as a relationship deepens, as this past guy had, a new relationship could, I think, still give you some sexual satisfaction if it even, if not immediately, if that makes sense. So I think kind of giving patience, building the relationship, cultivating it, communicating all of your needs, whether it's just in a relationship in general, as well as your sexual needs, physical needs as well. I think that will create the possibility to recreate, but with a partner who's ready and able to commit

the relationship that you're looking for. I was going to say one thing that I think was interesting about the friends with benefits situation is that being a single mom, because when I was dating him exclusively, I would always feel guilty. Like if I had my kids and he invited me to something and I couldn't go to it. And because it was a more casual relationship, if I had my kids for 12 days straight and I didn't have time to see him, it wasn't a big issue. And so I'm trying to shift now, I think, more to like a casual relationship because that's what I have the capacity for with my situation with my kids. It sounds like there was a lot of, I mean, just from my perspective, a lot of maybe learning that this relationship also opened up for you from the possibility of being just in a friends with benefits to you getting a little more clarity on kind of where

you stand. And I mean, that's really powerful learning because, you know, something I think about and write about, I think we have a tendency to have an idea or an expectation of the relationship we want or how we want to be in the relationship. And it doesn't always match up with the reality. And I think if we can become even more flexible with ourselves, some of us might surprise ourselves. You know what? I like a more casual relationship. Like, I have my stuff going on over here. I kind of like the idea of dropping in and dropping out. And I would have never imagined this was what it would be for me, though this is what it is. And I think the more flexibility each of us give ourselves, maybe even becoming aware of why

we have certain ideas and models of relationship. And of course, they come from our family, they come from culture, they come from messaging that we get in movies, but ultimately it doesn't all fit for us. So I think that a value that I'm hearing woven through all of this is the incredible amount of self exploration and learning and maybe even clarity. You might not have it exactly right now, but that you're moving toward that might open up possibilities for a different type of relationship, maybe that you're not didn't expect to be fulfilling, though that possibly could be. Yeah. I'm curious, not to like, because I usually don't do this, but like, what was the problem almost?

Because the way you are describing, kind of like Dr. Nicole mentioned, it's like you through dating and seeing this guy, and it sounds like you guys has had a relationship, and because it wasn't part of more cultural norms and things like that, you just had less expectations of each other. And that seemed to fit you both, right? He's this kind of 42 year old kind of Peter Pan guy who like is afraid of commitment, doesn't want to have kids, but you here, you are a single mother who's very invested in your children. You got to deal with this pain in the ass ex-husband. You're not necessarily looking for, at least right now, a man in your life to really expect

a lot of you and be needy of your time and require a lot of you to like, hey, I need you to come to my family events. I need you to come and support me at my work events and yada, yada, yada. And some people want that, but you don't right now. And I'm just wondering, what was the problem? Other than it's almost like you guys both were like, we're not supposed to do this because society says we're supposed to expect more of each other. So like, why is he dating this other girl? Because it almost sounds like you fit his emotional needs as much as he fits yours. I, yeah, I would agree with all of that. I think for him though, and I've told him this, and we've had these long conversations

that he would feel like it's moving backwards instead of forwards to get back together with me, even if it meets his needs. And he's acknowledged that what, where our schedules are and what our own needs are, they match really well. What are his relationship goals? You want, like, what does he want? I mean, he wants a partner, but he has this really strong group of friends that hang out all the time. And so he wants to also spend time with his friends. And I think like the fact that I have kids and he has all this time to spend with his friends

is a really good match. And I think if he's dating someone and they don't want kids, because he said he doesn't want kids and he still wants to hang out with his friends, he's going to be disappointed in that way. But that's his own problem. That's not my problem. True. Yeah. But I'm just wondering, like, doesn't sound like he wants to get married anytime soon or does he? No. I mean, and I don't know if I ever want to get married again either. Yeah. So what does he mean by moving backwards? Like if you were to get back together with me, that's a step backwards in his head. Backwards to where?

To what he had before instead of something different. I guess. I'm just using his language. I told him. It's like where a lot of people, you date, you're like, okay. Then nowadays it's like, let's move in. Let's get engaged. Let's get married. Let's have kids. And that order might shift for different people. But what I'm hearing from you, it's like he just wants a girlfriend and he's not looking to do anything else. And that's rare to find.

And you might be the one person out there that seems to be down with that. So when he says the word backwards, I'm like, where are you trying to go in this relationship? And neither of you were trying to go anywhere in the best possible way. It's almost like I'm confused. Because for you, like forgetting about him, it's like... I feel the same way. Yeah. So why did you decide for yourself, even if he comes back, I'm not going to take him back? Because he is so scared of things that he's not sure of. He needs to do that work on his own.

And he's been seeing a therapist for a decade. Like he is- Maybe he's a therapist. He's his therapist weekly and all of this, but he just runs away when things get scary. And so even if we don't have like long-term plans, I still don't want him running away. It's like something that's scary. And so I still don't want him running away. It's, like, something that's scary. And so I think he needs to work on that. So just the fact that he all of a sudden said,

hey, I'm dating this girl, he wanted the freedom of non-monogamy, even though he didn't take advantage of that most of the time. But then he did. And that was probably hard for you to accept. Yeah. I probably actually went on more dates than he did. Well, I mean, listen, yeah. I don't know. I'm surprised I'm saying this, but I would, you know, who knows what's that? Like these seems to really fit your needs right now. And your needs are unconventional and harder to find. But in the mean, I mean, I also am curious when those other guys you had sex with, why did those relationships stop? Because they were so bad at sex or was there other reasons why? One of them was because it was so bad at sex. The other one I'm still

talking to, but after we had sex, I felt an ick and I've just, I haven't seen him since. I was supposed to see him last night, but I had to work late. Maybe take sex off the table for a minute if you see him again and just build that emotional connection and like dr nicole said like you know unfortunately for these next guys you're hanging out with you really enjoyed sex with this other guy so it's like it is hard to replicate you know it's a weird feeling like thankfully i haven't experienced in a while but like if you're in a long-term relationship and it's monogamous and you're faithful and that relationship ends it's super fucking weird to be intimate with the next few people because it's like it's monogamous and you're faithful and that relationships ends. It's super fucking weird to be intimate with the next few people because it's like,

it's different when you're having sex with someone, you, there's a shorthand, there's a chemistry, there's a, and then you try those moves on someone else. And it's like, you,

that you can tell that person knows that you're like doing something you used to do with your past partner. It's just like a weird thing, you know? And so like, it was probably you moreoring your head than anything else because again, you and your past, this past guy just had such a shorthand

and a chemistry, you know? You knew what each other liked and things like that. Sex with new people is clunky, you know? You don't know what they, you know, if they're givers, receivers, you know, things like that, all that stuff. So I think there's something

really practical in here, if you don't mind, because that's real, right? The second in the moment of having sex with a new person, right? Something doesn't go or feel like it did with him, right? Now you are in your head. Now he's in the room, this other guy with the two of you. How are you ever going to give this a possibility? So I think the practical kind of application of exactly what

we're talking about here to be even in a sexual moment to give us the opportunity to have enjoyment, we have to be in that moment. So really being attentive and naturally not to shame yourself because your mind will go there. When a move happens that doesn't feel like it did, right, then removing focus from comparison, shaming yourself for being in this moment, telling yourself this isn't going to go anywhere now, whatever you're going to do in your mind, and just bringing your attention back to that moment. And I think as far as the big question in terms of the relationship, I love how you're thinking in terms of, I can't solve this for him, right?

He's on his own journey. And I think that's such a healthy stance to be in and your continued focus back on, okay, well, what can I do? What are my boundaries? What's comfortable for me? How do I feel in whatever iteration or version of the relationship that it is? So going back to what Nick said, we don't know what will happen, but I do know if you keep yourself grounded, present, attuned to yourself and you're possibly changing needs, right, in the moment, bringing your focus, you know, kind of back to what is and keeping your focus on yourself. Because I think what's very common, and I'm not hearing this in you, is we try to change the other person, right? We try to get them to just

see that this relationship would work or that they do want children or try to even uncover what their issues are so that we can solve them for them, make them choose us. And I really love how healthy, again, your focus is. Well, back to me. I don't know what he's going to do, but I know and I can continue to explore and get grounded in what works for me. Yeah. Did you ever find yourself in that past year of the friends with benefits, like developing stronger and stronger feelings? Like at any point, did you think, I think I love this guy or were you able to detach from that fairly easily? With my ex, do you mean? No, the Mr. Dick-matized. Oh yeah. I mean, I still and in certain ways like i it's just not the same that it was when we were dating exclusively okay like he's someone that i i'm sure i'll always care about yeah it's a it's very kind of an unconventional situation but i i'm almost certain he'll be back that's for sure he'll definitely give you an opportunity to enforce that boundary and honestly yeah if you give in i don't know if it's the end of the world,

because I only say that because your needs are so unique and specific and in its own way, unconventional. It might be just a challenge for you to find a guy who, you know, A, wants to commit to you, but also is willing to give you as much space as you need. And right now you seem to really want and enjoy that space. You know, you're not willing to make any guy right now that much of a priority compared to your kids. And not every man is accommodating to that, you know? And so until you find that person, if Mr. Dickmatized comes along

and you are in need of some good loving. I wouldn't beat yourself up if you say yes to it. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? I would just check in. That was not what I was expecting from you. Yeah. I mean, every situation is different. Again, I'm only saying that because of your specific needs. And you seem to have a pretty good handle on what you're looking for and what you want and what you need. And that is something that I even hate the word to say casual relationship. It's just a relationship with like less expectations of each other. You know, a lot of people feel like if I'm in a relationship, I need to expect more and more

and more. And if I'm not expecting more than our relationship isn't evolving. That's not always the case. It does take two very independent and I think confident people to be in a relationship like you are desiring because I think space sometimes creates insecurity. Then if you're dating someone with some sort of attachment

disorder, it might trigger that and things like that. So it is a little bit unconventional to find in your space. But as your kids get older, five years from now, your kids are going to be teenagers. They'll be more independent. They'll be looking into school, things like that. And then you might be looking for something a little bit more meaningful and things like that. So maybe for the next five or six years, you may be more casually dating and things like that.

And that's okay. He's just serving a purpose to keep you from being super lonely. That makes sense. So, all right. Well, hopefully that was helpful. I don't know. No, I think it was. Yeah.

All right. And it's good to hear it from a different perspective. I think this is one of those cases where there isn't a kind of concrete plan of action, though. Again, I think the more you just continue to stay connected to yourself, your instincts, your wants, your needs, and continue to advocate for them as it sounds like you have been and kind of to see. And again, I think this is so common. So many of us, I think, are looking for the exact right answer outcome. And I think about this a lot just in my work. And in reality, I think this is the reality. It's do we have that kind of internal home base, that intuition, that compass? Do we have the place to go and get clarity for

as we find our way into the unknown? Because none of us have that clarity. Like Nick or I can't say, oh, well, this is exactly what's going to happen next in this circumstance for you. You don't know that. But I think the more we develop trust in ourself and that ability to turn inward, to connect with our instincts and then to advocate for ourself in the way that beautifully you seem to be able to, I think that is the most confidence that we can give ourself as a human. No, thank you. I appreciate that.

Yeah. And then, you know, in the meantime, when you keep dating, you know, if you like someone as much as you can, because sometimes you just have some physical needs that need to get met, like, you know, maybe, you know, hold off on the intimate part just because it right now you've been digmatized in that, you know, comparison is a thief of joy, as they say. And it might take a while for you to forget that sensation you received from him. And, you know, you definitely can build sexual chemistry with people for sure. You know, listen, it sounds like one guy was just like, you know what, I'm not, I'm not even willing to take on this project. But I think in other cases you can build, you can build that chemistry for sure.

And the fact that you enjoyed it so much with that guy, yeah, it's just a super weird feeling to have sex with someone new, especially when you really enjoyed sex with someone. Most times it's very disappointing. And I think it has less to do with the person and more to do with it's just an adjustment period for you well keep us posted yeah let us know how things go for you in the future we'd love a follow-up down the line i will definitely follow up with all right any updates we'll take care thanks for calling you you too thank you bye-bye vessi keep those feet dry and comfortable wherever you are walking that's right vessi is changing those feet dry and comfortable wherever you are walking.

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ShipStation.com, promo code VILEFILES. How's it going? Hi, I'm Janae and I'm 27 years old and I think my husband is gay. Okay, why do you think that might be a possibility? I think he might be gay because I found Grindr on his phone. I was searching through his phone and that was the first thing that popped up and I was able to look through the messages and I saw that he was sending the messages to other people. Other men i'm assuming other men but also there was transgender um people on the app as well okay um and he was sending pictures of his face and

then also uh his dick so i knew it was him okay yeah you recognized the dick yeah uh i did okay um so setting aside whether he's gay or not uh he is on a dating app sending nudes to people that are not you and i'm assuming right now your understanding in this marriage is that it's monogamous so have you confronted him about this infidelity just in general? I did. And? I did. I actually confronted him right away within about an hour. So he usually wakes up around four in the morning. When I found this on his phone, it was three in the morning. And so once he woke up, I was like, hey, are you awake? And he was like, yeah, I'm wide awake. And I was like, okay, I just want to talk to you about something really quick. I just said, okay, so I want to talk about your grinder usage. And he was like, my what? And I was like, your grinder usage. And he's like, what are you talking about?

And I was like, don't lie to me. I know you were messaging other people. And he was like, what are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, what are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, oh, you don't. So I got up out of bed, grabbed his phone and I opened up the phone and I was like, you don't know what I'm talking about. And he would, he just grabbed it out of my hand. And the first thing he said was you're looking through my phone. And I was like, yeah, I did. Were you this calm? Yes, I was actually. I was. Okay.

I was like, yes, you did. And I was like, I'm not mad. I'm extremely disappointed. But I'm glad I did look through your phone because of the way that I would have found this out could have been from a disease. And I'm not okay with that. Yeah. Before you looked and found Grindr, were you thinking there's another woman or was his behavior off?

Like what led you to you going through his phone? So actually, so we've been married for about a year and a half legally. We did not have an official real wedding until about six months after we were legally married. So when we were going to have our wedding, the second wedding in front of our friends and family, because nobody knew, it was about a week before we had our bachelor and bachelorette party. And he was extremely sick and so much so he was coughing up blood. He had fever. And so I ended up calling the doctors.

I was able to get a doctor's note and I thought, OK, I'll just send it to his boss. So I went to log into his Kaiser account, which is the hospital that we go to. And when you go and log in, you can write the username and password, but there's also an option for you to click the little key that has all of your passwords and usernames saved. And so he had that for his Gmail. He had that for other apps. And one of them that popped up was Grindr. And I was like, wait, what is this? And so he was dead asleep. So I downloaded Grindr on his phone, had already been downloaded before. I was able to log in and I only found one message

from one person. And it was somebody who was trans and um i did confront him about that and he denied it he's like no this is just a prank blah blah blah and so by then i i didn't believe him when he told me that but we had already been legally married we had already paid the way the venue off everything was paid off family was coming in from everywhere and i I was like, okay, well, I'll see if I can deal with that later. We have a week before we're supposed to walk down the aisle. Yeah, I know. But legally, there was nothing else we could do other than- Like you were already legally married. We were legally married. My name was changed. My social security-

So this is really just about a party. You already paid for the party. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. about a party. You already paid for the party. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um, and so anyways, I, I always kept that in the back of my mind. Um, but the reason I was searching through his phone was because, um, lately he's been having a drinking problem and has been abusing drugs. Okay. And I was trying to figure out who the people he was buying the drugs from was because his dad works in law enforcement.

And I wanted to kind of scare him and make him realize like what he was doing. And so I wasn't trying to find the Grindr account or anything. That was what I found. And I was not mad because I didn't feel like I should judge him for, um, liking of either other men or, you know, whatever. I was just angry at the fact that I felt like you married me knowing this, like this could have been something that we talked about if you're bi, if you're whatever, but like, don't put me through a four year relationship and a year and a half of marriage and then have me find out this

way yeah you're very understanding just to clarify to nothing he shared no aspect of his sexuality with you never directly okay what are you hoping to get out of this call because it doesn't sound like it doesn't sound like we're trying to figure out if he's gay at this point he clearly has an interest in in men and so whether he identifies as bisexual or gay i don't and i don't know that's really relevant to you are you considering trying to save this relationship like where is your head at in terms of what you want to do when it comes to your marriage so actually i made the decision last night i'm i am going to file for divorce divorce. My question is more of how to go about that when I'm talking to my family about it and I'm talking to his family about it, just letting

them know we're going to separate. We're going to have a divorce. He does have a daughter who we have 50% of the time. I'm also talking to her, just letting her know that I'm not going to be a part of her life like I have been. And just kind of figuring out how to do that because I don't want to out him. Clearly, that's not something he's still comfortable about. And again, I'm not trying to judge him. That's whatever he's feeling or whatever he truly wants. I'm fine with that. I just I don't know how to go about that when I'm talking to other people about it. I'm really curious what you have to say about this, Dr. Nicole. I mean, because from Ryan, it's like, yes, I think you're being very respectful to not want to out him. And it sounds

like he's really struggling with his sexuality and maybe that's playing a role into his drug abuse and drinking, who knows, but he did involve you in this and you are married and you have the right to leave the relationship and you have the right to answer people's questions without, you know, them wondering if you're just like flippantly leaving the chance to explain himself. But at some point, you might have to answer people's questions because you are married to this guy. And this is a valid reason for you to leave the relationship. Now, you could be really nice and say, well, he cheated on me. But you don't have to get into the details of who he cheated on you with because he, I don't know, from where I stand, he cheated on you. So maybe that's the loophole, so to speak. But I'm curious if you have any input on what is the right or wrong answer for that. I think ultimately, I want to reflect what you're saying, Nick, because it's really wise.

We get to decide what we share, how much we share, what we tell. It sounds like, I mean, when you say you have to explain, where is that feeling, belief, where is that coming from when you're kind of sitting here and you're like, well, I'll have to kind of account for what happened. Where is that coming from? Yeah. So he and I have had issues with, again, the drinking and the drugs. And so his family knows about that. So I can use that with them and say, I just can't handle the drug usage. I can't handle the drinking because they know how bad it has gotten. With my family though, they don't know anything. They think like our marriage is picture perfect. Again, it hasn't

even been a full year since we've been married in front of their eyes, you know, in front of their eyes because nobody knew we were legally married. Okay. Why are you so secretive with your family? So I'm not. That's the funny thing is I'm usually very open about everything. But I think because this was my relationship and my marriage, I didn't want them to have to worry about me and worry about what I was going through.

His family knew, you know, there was times where it got really bad with the drinking and they were there when they saw everything, you know, he never hurt me physically or anything emotionally. Yes. Um, that was very draining and it's been very draining for them as well. And we've tried a lot of different techniques and different things to try to help him, but he clearly does not want the help and i always thought that it was coming from somewhere else yeah how old are you i'm 27 okay listen you again you seem rather poised um and i don't know if you're masking anything or you know deep down and i'm sure you're probably upset but but I don't know, in my experience, when it comes to family, like, yeah, they're always going to worry about you, but if you present as like, you got a handle on it and you're okay, you know, I think they would want to know what

you're going through rather than thinking they can't handle, you know, hearing your truth or what you're going through and you're not giving them an opportunity there to be there for you. And again, like, it doesn't sound like you're, I mean, some people in your position might truly, I mean, could melt down from this revelation and could really go through a really, maybe a dark period of grieving and trying to get over this. And again, I don't know what, maybe you will, but right now you seem like, you know, you're handling it pretty well and you know you're only 27 you seem like you have a good head on your shoulders you're surprisingly still empathetic to what he's going through um so maybe give him a shot to you know be there for you uh and i really

think they might worry less than you think because you're, you know, you might, you might look like you're doing okay. You know? I think that that's something that I, I agree with. I do. I do agree with you. I think the, the sense of them worrying is I just think that they're going to think that I'm super heartbroken and I, in a way I am, but because of how it's all unfolded, way I am, but because of how it's all unfolded, I think I just don't, I can't, I don't feel like I can blame him fully for that. So I don't feel like we can choose our sexuality. Um, as far as everything else, I mean, making me, you know, having me go through a relationship for four years and knowing this and then marrying me and, you know, on top of everything else. Yes. I do blame him for that. Um, and I have questioned him about it. And I, you know, on top of everything else. Yes, I do blame him for that.

And I have questioned him about it. And I, you know, I was like, if that's who you truly are, that's fine with me. But don't put me through that. I'm not going to be here forever. Well, you're very understanding. And again, I don't know what it's like to be confused about my sexuality. I do have friends and loved ones who have struggled. So I know it can be very difficult. That being said, it doesn't give people the right to be shitty to other people. You know, like there have been public figures out there, you know, who have like stalked people,

you know? And then I was like, oh, well, I'm gay. You know, I realized finally I'm gay. It's just like, well, great. But you still made someone else very scared for their life that one has nothing to do with the other. I only say that because again, you do have to worry about how you're doing and it's okay for you to check in with yourself and make sure that you are okay. And maybe, you know, talk with someone therapy. I don't know, as you go through this, but I mean, I love that you have, you know, when you're like, I'm kind of heartbroken or I don't know what the language you use, but most people in your shoes would not say, I, uh, I'm kind of heartbroken. So I'm just really happy that you seem to be emotionally okay. But I, I just don't think you have to protect him as much as you seem to want to. I mean, at a minimum, I feel like if people ask why you broke up, you should say he cheated on me and you can leave it at that.

Yeah, I can say that. I was just thinking like, if they were like, oh, did you find out about other women or, you know, you can say, you know what, ask him. But, you know, he cheated on me. I didn't want to be in that relationship anymore. He broke my trust. It's something I can't go back from. But if you want to find out who and why, honestly, I don't honestly don't even know what's true

or what's not. But that's something you'd have to ask him. I'm going to leave it at that. I want to second all of this because you really do get to decide how much, how little, what narrative, because it's your story too. how much, how little, what narrative, because it's your story too. And I just want to lean a little bit harder into this kind of concept or topic around how okay you may or may not be, because I hear a lot of what could possibly be over-understanding. And I'm speaking as someone who has a history myself of over-understanding, being able to pull back like, oh, well,

right. They're conflicted around their sexuality. So this is why they're treating me poorly. And oh, my family, they're just really caring, loving, worrisome, neurotic people. So they worry a lot. So I'm going to manage them and a lot of managing and a byproduct of that for me, at least personally in the process of worrying about everyone else, I spent little time creating space to feel as I feel. And so saying that to say my concern being in all of this kind of perception managing, other people's emotion managing, the concern would be that you're doing as I once did, which is bypassing the very real understandable grief. Even if this isn't the person for you in the future, I mean, you built a life, you dedicate it, you opened up vulnerably, you commit it,

you tried to march toward a future together with this person, and it would be natural if there's some loss that's coming up. Aside from the ending and the infidelity and the betrayal and the lack of transparency and honesty and all of that. So again, just speaking from an individual to another individual, I saw a similar pattern and I just want to make sure that you give yourself a moment to maybe try on not being okay for just a second and not worrying about because to speak to your point, Nick, to give and receive support as we all need or to receive the support that we all need, we have to be honest. And if we're too worried about what the information will do, what the information that we want to share with someone that we need support around will do to someone else, then we really are shutting ourself off from the support that we need. And that's not to say maybe your family then isn't going to be the relationship that's able to provide you that holding or that support that you need. Wondering if there's other relationships, friendships, because our family sometimes can't be that for us because they are too clouded by their own subjectivity. So this might be an occasion where you thank your family for caring and maybe you take your not okayness into the supportive circles if you have them. Something in your shoes, other than like giving yourself the space, how would someone in her shoes lean into maybe what I'm guessing is maybe a habit you had of doing that or she's developed, you know, where it's harder to.

One thing maybe it's easy for you to say that to her, but how could she execute on that? I think to create a new habit, let me say this first, we have to break an old habit. So meaning in the moments where you're like, oh, it doesn't matter how I feel because this might upset them, right? Kind of hitting pause and giving yourself even the moment to affirm, no, it does matter how do I feel? Maybe I don't know how I feel. Let me explore. How might I feel? Maybe I need space away from interacting with this person before I know what I'm going to tell them to explore how I feel. So again, I want to emphasize that because I think we all go to the, well, how do I create space for my feelings to be with them? Well, first,

we have to break the habit of removing ourselves, of negating our presence by just focusing outward. So that means in those moments where you kind of play a tape forward and like decide you're not going to share something because it could upset, right? Maybe hitting pause in that moment and giving yourself the possibility of saying, you know what, this might upset them. And this is still true, what's true for me. And to get support, I have to share that with them. Yeah. You sound like my therapist. My therapist has told me the same thing.

And he, even the same thing. I'm happy we're aligned. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, he was like, how are you so calm? And I was like, well, I feel like in that moment when it first happened, I didn't know how to feel. So my emotions weren't really processing. I didn't know if I was angry.

I didn't know if I was sad. I didn't know what to think. And it took me a couple of days. And I actually, it's been like four or five days since I found out. And I finally cried today. I mean, it took me a long time, a lot longer than I thought it would have.

But I think it was just kind of realizing like what it means to me now, because again, you mentioned, I've spent four years with him, right? He's been a part of my life for exactly four years. And his family has been a part of my life. We would go to their house almost every single weekend. And so I built relationships with all of them. And so now I'm

going to have to grieve all of that because I'm losing them as well. Um, and just to be respectful, they all have told me because again, we've had issues. They've let me know, you know, but we'll still be here for you and whatnot. And I don't know if they're seeing that to be nice. But as much as I would want to keep those relationships, I know I need to separate myself to just be able to take time for myself and take time to heal and figure out now what I want. And that part will work itself out with the family. Cause yeah, people do say things for pleasantries and maybe it will be true, but like you don't know where you will be in a year from now or where they will be. And that decision isn't really a decision

that really either you or his family is in honestly a position to actually make, you know? And the good news isn't something you need us to say to you, you're going to be okay because it sounds like you already know that. And it's something I struggled with when I was grieving over heartbreak or things like that. I had to get to you, you're going to be okay, because it sounds like you already know that. And something I struggled with when I was, you know, grieving over heartbreak or things like that, I had to get to the point first where I felt like I was going to be okay. Because usually when something like this happens, you know, whether it's anger or sadness, there's also a lot of fear of like,

how am I going to get over this? Can I get over this? I, you know, or we're not even asking the questions. We're like, I can't get over over this but you don't seem to be dealing with any of that which I'm happy to hear but yeah be sad for a while you know it's okay to you know be like this fucking sucks you know and don't put a timeline on that too I just again

I it could be three months from now and you could have another wash of sadness of grief you could put yourself out there and start meeting new people and you could be brought back again to the loss of this relationship. So I think we do ourself a disservice when we put timelines or judge. We think we should be over something or we think we should be feeling something more deeply than we are. And I think it's just being with and accepting whatever we're feeling whenever, even if it's illogical, because something I think that happens, especially when it's a shocking piece of information,

just regulating, disrupting your whole life. I mean, we could quite literally, and we do, as initiated by our nervous system, go into shock. And even the way you're describing it, I don't know how I felt. I'm at a loss. I maybe can't even put into words how I feel. For me, that's all a completely natural byproduct of a nervous system that's completely in a state of shock because it's the whole, it's like the rug, right? It was ripped out from under you. I mean, your life very much could look different starting tomorrow. And that's a stressful change for any of us. So for a lot of us, it takes time for the dust to settle, for our body to re-regulate. And then unfortunately,

then we have all of the feelings of sadness, of grief. You might even feel rageful and angry, right? And a million different feelings. So giving yourself patience without a timeline to kind of feel into what it is without surpassing or bypassing, I should say, worrying about what other people think and creating the space for you to just be with how you feel. Okay. The last thing I can do that. The last thing I would say to you is like, I mean, I love that you are as empathetic and as understanding towards his plight as

you are. And I think you can continue to be so, but it's also just not your job to protect him anymore. You know? So like, I think there's a difference between being respectful and protecting him and i would love you to do the former and not the latter uh because i feel like you you still come across as you have some sort of sense of obligation to him to protect him and i don't think you do anymore. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I kind of always have always felt that need to protect him.

And I think it's because of he, he shows up as if like, he's a strong man and he's tough and he's really not. It's just like what he's showing to the world. And, um, he is very fragile and, um, he's been suicidal and he deals with depression and anxiety. And I think that's why I feel the need to protect that, because I don't know what that could do to him. And that that's something he has to deal with, you know, and you can still say, you know, I can be here for you as a friend. But I think you really need to, to like figure out what your boundaries are going to be with him.

Once you kind of go down this path of divorce, because protecting him might inhibit you from living your life and moving on emotionally and detaching yourself. Like you can go from his wife to his like emotional support system, because right now you might be one of the only people in this world who actually knows his truth, you know, but that's still not your obligation. And he doesn't get to hang that over your head.

It's extra complicated, too. I'm just as kind because he's not even being transparent or honest. I mean, unless I miss that with you. Right. So all of this labor that you're holding of protecting, of managing, of and he's not even directly saying, hey, this is my truth. And, hey, I feel insecure. And, hey, can you help me? I don't know what to do with the world.

And I'm not comfortable. Can you I mean, you're just doing this kind of outside of his even honesty toward you. And that's kind of striking me, too. It's just a lot of responsibility. And I totally understand. I think a lot of us make decisions to avoid a future consequence of someone else. Like we don't want to do something because what will happen to them. But we, and I say this so often, and I think it's a very frustrating truth for all of us to live into, though we can't control anyone or anything outside of ourself. And that's just the reality. And that's a really uncomfortable reality, which is why I think we go into all of these gymnastics of trying to change that and to

feel like we have more control than we do. And that's what I'm hearing. You're doing a lot of the labor and a lot of the work and he isn't really kind of showing up. And again, I think it is a distinction between being respectful and sharing our journey versus doing something disrespectful. And I'm not getting any sense that anything that you would share or speak with anyone for support would be any of that nature. Thank you. All right. Well, sorry you're going through this. It sucks. Yeah. Yeah. It does suck.

Yeah. But like you said, I know I'll be okay. Just got to get through it first. You will. Just don't make a bad situation worse by dragging it out said, I know I'll be okay. Just got to get through it first. You will. Just don't make a bad situation worse by dragging it out by all the things we talked about. Well, keep us posted on this journey of yours. We'd love to get an update from you as you move through this. And hopefully there's light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, for you. I'm sure there will be, for sure.

Thank you. All right. Take care. for you. I'm sure there will be, for sure. Thank you. All right. Take care. Thank you. This show is brought to you by BetterHelp. BetterHelp. It's therapy season because it's therapy season every season because there's no better time to prioritize your mental health than today. But we understand therapy can be intimidating. It can be expensive. It can be inconvenient. We understand. But BetterHelp is helping with all of those pain points when it comes to therapy. If you're looking for convenience, well, you can talk to a therapist wherever you are,

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My name's Peyton. I'm 33. I'll be 34 on Tuesday. Okay. Happy birthday. How can we help? I want to divorce my husband, but I'm not exactly sure how to tell him. Okay.

Is the decision we're 100%? We're done? Pretty much. The main reason I want to leave is because I feel like he has a drinking problem. It's something that has been ongoing for a while. And I'm just at the point where I just don't see how we could fix it. Okay. What is your biggest concern in terms of telling him? Is it your safety? Is it his feelings? Like what's, what's your biggest struggle with giving that information? Well, we have two children. Okay. Um, we have, um, a son who's three and a daughter who she'll be eight. Actually, she'll be eight on Tuesday

because we share a birthday. Um, so those are my, my biggest concerns are, you know, especially my daughter. Um, she's so much of a daddy's girl. And I just feel like it's really going to break her heart to see her parents separate. Also, I'm like a really big empathetic and I don't like hurting people. And I know when I tell him that it's going to hurt his feelings. I did, I have given him like a heads up. I told him about a month ago, you know, I can't do this anymore. Changes need to be made and nothing really has changed the only thing that he's changed is uh he doesn't drink in front of me now he just drinks like when he's not around me and he'll hide the cans around the house and i can find him and stuff like that

sure well i'm sorry you're going through this it sucks so it's okay a lot to deal with a little bit of a like a backstory um about like in like when COVID hit, we moved to Georgia. Well, I moved to Georgia with my kids under the pleasure of family because I had family there and he stayed in North Carolina. That's where we're at now. And he would like travel back and forth. And then he got a pretty serious job in like 2022. And then he wanted me and the kids to move down to North Carolina. And I really didn't want to, because you know, when my mom and my brother and my nieces are all there and they're like a really big support for me. And, but I felt like I had to for the kids. And so I felt like whenever we were doing like long

distance, I would only be seeing like pieces of him. And ever since I moved in North Carolina, we've been living together since like August of 23. I'm like, it's really been like eye opening. Gotcha. So yeah, now that you are in his like orbit, his problem is a lot more alarming to you than it was before. Yeah. And it's not like he's just drinking at home.

It's pretty more, it's more serious than that. What have you considered as options to telling him? I mean, just blatantly just out saying it, you know, I do think that I'll probably have to contact a lawyer because I do want to move back to Georgia to be closer to my family. So I don't know. So it's just and see my daughter, she's also in school here and she's in like a dance program and then all that doesn't end until june so it's like do i tell him now and just try to figure it like like coexist until june or do i wait yeah no it's a good question i'm glad we have uh dr nicole here because i'm curious what you think

like the friend in me would say talk to a lawyer, like get your ducks in a row, you know, know your rights, know what you don't know. Kids are involved. You are dealing with someone with a substance abuse problem that those people are unpredictable. But I don't know if your advice would be different from a more professional standpoint, because like as a friend, that's what I would say. Well, not bad advice as a friend, Nick. I think there's two levels, friend, that's what I would say. Well, not bad advice as a friend, Nick. I think there's two levels that we could, and I'm wondering what level you're looking for the most kind of feedback and advice around,

because there's the logistical practical level of when to tell them what to say, what perhaps would be helpful to do prior to figuring out that when or what to say in terms of lawyers and things like that. Are you even just having clarity on what you need or want to happen next? Level one, logistics kind of. And then level two, I think the deeper part, probably more difficult level, and I don't know if this is more of the nature of your conversation, the emotional level, right? All of this responsibility that I'm hearing that you have, not only for his possible, maybe probable upset, hearing the ending of a relationship and then everything in terms of him grieving and evolving the dynamic of the relationship and then all of the responsibility naturally that you feel for your children too,

right? How will they feel when now parents are separated and their life obviously will look different. So I don't know if you kind of have a preference or kind of what exactly are you kind of looking for? Or is it a little bit of both in terms of the logistics and the emotion or okay. Yeah. We've been together since high school. So we've been together for like 15 years. Okay. So there's a lot of life kind of logistically that's also been connected that needs to be disconnected again, because I think those in terms of practical, you know, the advice that Nick gave in terms of getting clearer and maybe even taking time to figure out what you want, getting supports. All of that, I think, is very great advice. I think the deeper piece, though, and, you know, is not only how much of your life is emotionally connected, but the emotional sense of responsibility I think that you're feeling. And the reality of it is you might be shocked. You might be devastated.

You might, you know, continue to, you know, use dysfunctional habits to soothe that we don't know. And while we can care and love and want the best for someone, we also can't change them. We can't make choices for them. We can't take away their pain. With your children, of course, too, I think that's another separate conversation. Of course, as a parent, you don't want to upset your child, though. I think relationships that stay together with this idea of being for the children to show a cohesive family or not to disrupt it, if there's conflict, if it isn't working, if there's active substance use, if there's dysfunctional habits, then the pain and the heartbreak that a child will have to go through initially, seeing their family shift in

terms of dynamics, I think would be better, kind of weathering that heartbreak initially, I should say, would be better than living where you're not feeling fulfilled, where there's all of these dysfunctional habits. So I think, again, a lot of us stay together with this idea that we're helping as opposed to children can understand a lot more than I think we give them credit for. They're attentive and attuned and they feel. So again, even if on the surface, when you do communicate that there is a separation going to happen, I think the more information we give our children within a developmentally appropriate window, of course, I think the better that they do with it. You know, so being honest in terms of that, you know, it didn't work out and this is what life will look like. I think as we kind of prep our children along the way, telling them more than less, I think we can help them navigate the transition.

Yeah. At first, I did want to stay for them, especially my daughter. But now to the point where I want to leave for them. Yeah. Because they deserve better. I deserve better. And I never wanted to, you know, my kids have a broken home, but seeing healthy boundaries and a healthy life is way better than having to suffer through a broken home. Yeah, absolutely. And I don't want to give you false hope, but who knows, maybe, maybe this will be a wake up call for him.

You know, maybe this will make him realize he has to make some real changes in his life. You know, again, I don't want to give you any false hope, but, you know, clearly the ultimatum that you offered him a month ago didn't do much. But it's one thing to give an ultimatum, but it's another thing to ask for the divorce and in some ways separate him from his kids a little bit for their safety, even if he has joint custody. if he has joint custody. But even that might be something, again, that's where maybe where talking to a lawyer comes in, because if he really is

struggling with substance use problem, it's a fair question to wonder, are your kids safe with him being the only caretaker? You know, if you like drop him off at his new apartment, you know, and he's drunk, yikes. Right.

A little scary. Yeah. I don't know much about, you know divorce law or anything like that uh but i've had some friends and family deal with it and the fact that you are considering um going from one state to another i do think that can complicate things for you potentially um so something to look into um just because like you the fact that you are in one state and you want to go to another you might be limited where you can go um again i could be wrong but i do think you do have some things to figure out on the legal side of things and what your rights are and what his rights are and then what you might need to do uh given the situation that you are in you know because it's definitely better to have the information and not need it than not have

the information and, and realize it would have been nice to have earlier. Right. Yeah. How open are, are you, do you have relationships that you're able to get support and are you being open? I mean, do you have friends or family that you are sharing kind of what is happening or? Yeah, I do have two close friends that I've told about. And then my mom knows as well. I have a friend who's been through the divorce and stuff.

She's been a really good support. I think I guess it's just trying to figure out, you know, how to tell him and when to tell him and what to do in the meantime. Well, I'm asking specifically because as you get clearer on those details and deliver that message and then he has whatever reaction he has, I want to make sure that you have someone to lean on as well for two reasons. One, so that we don't feel so bad we take our boundary back and end up back in a relationship that isn't working. And two, because naturally you care about this individual, I assume, and will continue to care even if this relationship does no longer work out.

So anytime we see someone struggling, I think it's really, it weighs on us too. In addition to the reality that I don't know if we ever spoke yet, this reality, but you're also going through now a separation, the ending of a relationship a big life adjustment and change as well so you have your own grief now that you have to hold space for whatever his reaction is so i want to make sure that you're good and supported and have someone to get the support that you need as you do navigate whatever might come up as you logistically try to figure this out and also emotionally deliver this message. Yeah. So how you tell them, I mean, I don't know if there's a perfect way, you know, it's not like, all right, well, here's exactly what you need to do. You know, I don't know if we have that for

you. I think, you know, consider your safety and your kid's safety first and foremost. Again, you know, you're dealing with someone with substance abuse and who you know is going to be disappointed. But that aside, you just, I don't know, you might just have to rip the Band-Aid off. It's not going to go well. So I don't know if there's a magic way where I'm like, here, you tell him this way and he won't be that upset. I don't know if we can offer you that. What I can offer, though, here is the benefit of telling, of saying it. And I'm saying this as someone who, I've been divorced once, I'm remarried now.

I took probably about a year to finally be able to speak the words, even though I was fully settled in wanting a divorce with my ex. And instead over that year, instead of saying, hey, you know, this isn't working, knowing that that's, it wasn't working, knowing that that's it wasn't working and I want to enter the relationship, I just behaviorally acted out of it and tried to push and send the signals, hoping that my ex would just get the picture and leave. And in that really dysfunction of about a year, I caused not only myself, her, a lot of extra heartbreak. So speaking from that experience, I think sometimes we think we're saying things and we don't understand why people don't just get it. You

know, can't you just get the picture? This is over. Instead of just having that really difficult conversation that looking back, I wish I had a little bit more directly a little bit sooner because it would have saved and being you have a family with children, right? It would have saved the whole system. I think the fallout of all of that stress. So if and when you do, and it might mean as silly as this might make us feel, coming up with a script, like what it is that you want to say, maybe even practice saying it because anticipate you're going to be nervous. You're going to be scared. You're going to have all the adrenaline coursing through your body, all of the stress hormones, right? Not only saying this big, huge thing that's going to change your life, you know, being in anticipation of how he's going to react. So practice goes a long way when we have to deliver something that we know

is going to be in a heightened emotional state. So don't feel silly if you do think you could benefit from actually spending some time maybe journaling exactly what it is that you want to say and maybe even rehearsing it and anything you can do in the lead up. Something else I want to say about the delivery, whenever the time is, we can't, of course, give you the exact date. And what I can suggest to deliver, especially an emotionally activating conversation like this to the best of your ability, and I know that we can't control all of the external factors, delivering it at a time where you are able to be as grounded as possible. So not after you had a terrible day,

not after your three-year-old or eight-year-old was up all night, you know, and you're exhausted with no resources, delivering it when, of course, you're going to be stressed out. So we can't take that away. But making sure that you're doing it when you have resources available to you. And the same thing goes, of course, you can't control him and how he shows up. But if he does show up to this hypothetical conversation, you feel great and you have your lines down and you're calm and you're grounded. And then he shows up maybe under the influence of something. down and you're calm and you're grounded and then he shows up maybe under the influence of something not a good time so to the best of your ability you calm and ground it him as calm and grounded as possible to deliver the message because if we're already stressed out if we're already activated and now we're going to open up a wound like this and we're not grounded we're going to

i think set up a possible explosion. Okay. Was that helpful? Yeah, it's very helpful. Okay. Well, I'm sorry you're going through this. Not fun. But when you're ready, we would love an update because I do think once you are able to communicate this to your husband and go through it,

you probably can offer a lot of wisdom to our audience about what you experienced, things you wish you would have done differently, or, you know, just to walk through, you know, maybe it won't be as bad as you feared, you know, or maybe you'll feel much better once you communicate that. But either way, I think we'd love an update and to hear from you once you're ready. Yeah, for sure. Amazing. Well, thank you for your time. Again, sorry, you're going through this and best of luck. Thank you. And congratulations on your baby. She's beautiful. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Well, Dr. Nicole, I just want to thank you for your time and the great conversations and

the help with answering our callers' challenges. It was an honor to be here. Thanks for having me. I appreciate you being able also to talk about your book. Also a reminder, Dr. Nicole's book, How to Be the Love You Seek, now available. Now available. Anywhere you buy books. Is there an audio book as well? Anywhere you buy books, audio book, Kindle book, all the books, lots of local bookstores have them. Check it out. So be sure to check that out. And then where can people follow you on social?

Yes. Any social media platform at this point has some presence of the holistic psychologist. Of course, it all began on the Instagram account, though there's a TikTok, a YouTube, an X account. So however you consume content, come follow along. Amazing. Well, don't forget to send in those questions at asknickatthevilefiles.com for all things Ask Nick, texting, office hours, mediation. You know the drill. We'll see you back tomorrow for a reality recap.

Talk to you later the drill. We'll see you back tomorrow for Reality Recap. Talk to you later. Bye.