The Viall Files - E741 Ask Nick - I Found My Father

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Ask Nick Edition! We start off by introducing Nick to the ‘importance’ of technological etiquette in modern dating. Then we get to our callers��  Our first caller is married to an airline pilot, who she thinks had an emotional fair with his co-pilot. He’s told her interesting stories about his ‘friendship,’ and she continues to express her discomfort with their closeness. Our second caller recently reconnected with her biological father and his wife hates her. Although he’s welcoming of building a relationship, our caller is wondering if demanding respect from his family, as well, is acceptable. Our final caller has a cinco de mayo party coming up, and she’s afraid to invite her best friend due to his drinking problems. She’s had an intervention with him in the past, but she’s afraid that his new friend group has made him act differently.  “Make it hard for them to deny you, by how emotionally mature you are.” Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: https://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice, send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line!  To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Altoids - They're not just mints; they're curiously strong mints. Find Altoids in the check-out aisle today. Shipstation - Go to https://www.shipstation.com and use code VIALLFILES to sign up for your FREE 60-day trial. Hinge - On Hinge, there are no rules, timers or games. If you’re feeling inspired, give Hinge a try. Download Hinge today and find someone worth deleting the app for. Skylight Calendar -  As a special, limited-time offer for our listeners, get 15% off your purchase of a Skylight Calendar when you go to https://www.SkylightCal.com/FILES  Bubly - Try Bubly Burst today! Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @justinkaphillips @leahgsilberstein @alison.vandam @dereklanerussell

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to show up as your original self. Altoids has you covered. They're not just mints, they're curiously strong mints. Find Altoids in the checkout aisles, grab your tin today. You're crazy. What's going on everybody? What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Vile Files Ask Nick edition. I am your host, Nick.

Joined by the household, we got Scooter, we got sweet, sweet, sweet boy Justin. I didn't mess that up that time. I know. You got it quickly. How are you two doing? Doing good. I went to Disneyland yesterday. Yuck. Yuck. Was that like pre-parenting?

No, it's Passover, so Danny's family's in town and he has some younger cousins, so we all went as a group. You're a Disney fan. So I haven't been since I was a kid. Not necessarily a Disney fan. I mean, I enjoy the movies, but I'm not like one of those people

that needs to go to Disneyland every year. Theme parks in general, how do you feel about them? Love. Yeah, I like them. I did dive down a rabbit hole this weekend of like the Disney college program. What is that? It's a program that trains people to work at the parks.

But then it's like you make, like what you make basically pays for your living through the program. So you only make like $200 a week. These are just people who work at the park, like not necessarily the characters. People that wanna work at the park, yeah. Okay.

Yeah, so you- I don't think I like a lot of foreign exchange students. I think part of it, yeah, that's a big pipeline too. Very fascinating. Is it legal? Are they paying them like- I think they are. I would hope so.

I mean, I will say the rabbit hole I fell down was a lot of people saying that they got scammed and overworked, so. I had a friend who was a Disney princess. Me too. Did you? Well, princess was, mine was Tinkerbell, so kind of. She was Belle.

Oh, well. Yeah, oh, okay. Yeah. The bells. Which Disney prince would you be? I thought you were gonna ask me which Disney princess would I want to date more. Princess. Okay, both. Who would you want? I thought you were gonna ask me which Disney princess would I want to date more? Okay, both.

Who would you want to be because of the girlfriend? Yeah, like what, do we know anything about the princess? Other than Eric, maybe from- True, little mermaid. There's Gaston. Gaston's not a prince, he's a villain. Okay, so characters in general then? I mean like Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty,

they're just kind of generic prince, like they're just called the Prince right? Okay fine so which Disney princess would you date? I was a Belle fan. Oh I was like Belle. She can sing. They all can sing. Can they? Except for Ariel when she gets her voice taken away. That was pretty good Nick. I was a Little Mermaid fan. It's all in the theaters as a kid. Like when it first came out? Sha la la la la la, don't be scared. It's a good one. I haven't seen the new one.

I haven't seen any of the remakes. I haven't seen any of the live action ones. Yeah, that's what I meant. Yeah. In theory, it sounds like something I'd be interested in, but I just never got around to it. The animated ones just hit so hard and they were just such a core part of my childhood that I don't care to see more.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good, but I just never got around to it. The animated ones just hit so hard and they were just such a core part of my childhood that I don't care to see more.

I saw the live action Aladdin and Jasmine's new song was good. That's the one I did see. Right, and then they add songs and I don't want them to. They add songs? Jasmine had a new song in this one, but it was good. They add songs and they cut songs. When they cut them, I get really upset.

Robin Williams was amazing as the, who plays the genie in the new one? Will Smith. He was funny too. Speaking of remakes, a little bit ago, we did Smash or Pass with dating ideas. That's when we talked about like karaoke, hiking, going out to sushi.

A lot of people resonated with that. So we thought let's redo it, but let's make it a modern take on it. Now we're doing tech dating, Smash or Pass. Like how we use tech in dating? Yes. I mean, I just feel like technology presents a lot of dating conflicts and also, you know, new, just it's a whole new world. Technology in general, like just offers opportunity for people to be lazy. I think it offers opportunities in a good way and a bad way. And it's just like a whole

new world of dating than it was for like our parents and grandparents before technology was a thing. So we've put together a list of things that come up with technology and relationships. So Smash or Pass Edition. Okay, so red receipts, putting on red receipts for your partner specifically. Now that I have them on, is this in a real,

like we have it on, I don't remember the genesis of it. Do you have it on for everybody? No, I don't think so. Okay. But yeah, it's just like we know when someone's read it. For us, it adds more information and more information helps with communication for the most part.

I think it's totally inappropriate and toxic if you're not in a very solid, secure relationship. Why would it be toxic? Because I think when it comes to text messaging, there's way too many built-in assumptions. The assumption one is response time, that we live on our phones. I think when you're two couples with a kid getting married,

it's just nice to know that Nellie has read something if I need to know that she's read it, and I'm not so insecure that it's like, it's just nice to know that Nellie's read something if I need to know that she's read it, you know? And I'm not so insecure that I'm like, do you know what I'm saying? I'm not worried about that, but it's just like, I need a money be passed on information, and I need to know that she got it,

and she might be like holding river, and I don't need a thumbs up or a heart or a response, I just need to know she read it, so to speak. So it's adding more information. But short of having that security of like, it's just adding information, I think it adds more questions with information you're receiving if you're not in a secured relationship.

Just because we read a text, like we send someone a text in the middle of the day, like if I received a text right now, I have a terrible habit of looking at my phone. I also have a million things going on right now. So right now I'm dealing with potential emergencies. So I might get a notification. I'm going to check my phone. If I get a buddy asking me a question and I might look at it and read it, and then I could forget about it. I have a million things going on. And then it all of a sudden

comes across as an extra layer of, not only did I send it to him, I know he saw it. I know he didn't respond. Right. You know, but I'm in the middle of a day, I got a bunch of things going on, you know, and so like, it's just an additive layer of like, why the fuck did you not respond to me, you know? I think having your read receipts on for everyone

in a dating situation, if used correctly, puts you in a position of power power if you want, if you're trying to be manipulative. I think people always, I think in the past people saw rereceipts as, it would be embarrassing if someone knew that you read their message and you didn't respond, but quite the opposite. That's where it comes from when people say, oh they left you unread. Yeah, they left you unread, you know, so like it's like if you, if you're letting people know deliberately, you're leaving them on read and not responding,

that puts you in a position of power. Again, it puts you in a position of people thinking you're inconsiderate or a dick, but if you're dealing with a fuck boy, but again, now we're getting into, again, toxic. We're getting into toxic behavior, we're getting into manipulation, we're getting into game playing, and things like that.

So yeah, that's my answer there. Yeah, no, I agree. Mostly pass, but we smash. Okay, smashed but pass. I'd say smash too, because sometimes Danny will be at work and he'll fall off the face of the earth, and if I see that he read my message,

I at least know he's alive. Yeah. Yeah, which basically. And then I can say, hey, I need an answer if they don't answer me, but it's not a like, why have you responded? You know what I'm saying? Like, it's a data point I might need

to enhance our communication. Yeah, definitely. What about syncing calendars? I feel like that's adjacent on like tracking where people are and how busy. But again, so much is a matter of intent. Now I and I do follow each other's location. If she's driving and I can find out when she's home,

I can check her location to make sure she's on her way home rather than text her and get her to message me while she's driving. Oh, so this is sharing locations. Sharing locations. Sharing locations. Yeah, am I skipping ahead? Yeah. Okay, so sharing locations. Yeah, so much intent, it's intent, you know?

Like, are you doing it to spy, are you keeping track on it? I've never been like, where the fuck is she? And thinking she was somewhere else to spy on her. You know what I'm saying? I have Nally's password on her phone. I've never gone through her phone. She has asked me to get something from her phone. I've gone in her phone, I've used her phone when it's available.

And I'm like, where's my fucking phone? Oh, Natalie's phone's right here. But I've never gone into her DMs. I've never gone into her messages. I've never been like, what? Let me know it now that I'm in here. Let me look around and see if I find something that'll annoy me.

We have that stuff on and we're using it because it helps. Heart smash, I agree. I agree. I agree. I completely agree with a smash for this one. Again, making sure that he's alive and where he's, you know, if I see he's at wherever his session is or on his way home, like great, he's alive.

And also I think that a lot of these are signs just of a secure relationship. Like if you do share locations, if you, you know, do have your red receipts on, like these are just things that are helpful tools to help with your relationship as opposed to using them in a toxic way. If you're in a committed relationship and you're like, well why do you want to follow me or why do you want my read receipts on? It's like why do you, why do you think, why

did you even ask that question? Yeah. Again, that's, it's. What are you hiding? No, again, but like, now I didn't do that right away. It wasn't until we were engaged we turned that stuff on. So I guess that begs another question, like when are you at the point in your relationship to. We could have done it a lot sooner, but I think it just made more sense,

and it just kinda came up where it was like, yeah, I guess I should be following. And then you just leave it on for then. It's very sort of, and we just kind of came up where it was like, yeah, I guess I should be following. And then you just leave it on. Vice versa and we just kind of left it on. I don't remember when the red receipts thing happened. I think it might've been before. Honestly, I think Natalie turned it on for me. I think Natalie went in and turned it on for the both of us.

I think that might've happened, but yeah. I will say for location, the first four months with my partner, the only way I got to his house was like directions to location. Oh I do, yeah. Like I didn't remember his address, so I was like directions to so and so. It all comes down to intent, why are you asking?

What's the reason? Does it feel like your partner's asking you because they don't trust you or they're spying on you? Or is it like, hey man, wouldn't it make our lives easier if we did this? And if it's making your life easier because your lives are so intertwined, then no problem. Yeah, 100%.

It's also helpful for like, oh, I'm gonna order dinner. It's good to know like how far away they are from home to know, you know. Okay, so smash on location sharing. Let's circle back, syncing calendars. It's back to same answer as location. Yeah. But would syncing calendars help just for planning dates or movie nights or proposals?

Me and Ali do not sync calendars. And honestly, my life would probably be easier if it is. Because how many times am I asking you guys, check with Natalie, ask Natalie, I don't know, blah, blah, blah blah find out from Natalie You know yeah Yeah, so you can calendars would stress me out really already having my own like ten dots on a day stresses me out So I can't imagine like putting double that onto it. So it's a pass for you. It's like no not a I just don't It's tough well

I mean it's gonna depends on your brain because like I can't even look at calendars I need someone telling me where to go and what to do. See, I'm the exact opposite. Like there would be times where Danny would schedule something and then just not tell me. And then I'd be like, wait, we have dinner. So like when we merged calendars and I'm the only one who looks at it, but now I know, okay, he has this, this day. So I'm not going to schedule that. Or I just like, we'll pull up his calendar and be like, oh, okay. He started a session at three. So he won't be home till late tonight. So I find it like definitely hard smash.

Do you leave your calendar with both on it? Or do you like leave just your calendar and then you go to his calendar? Honestly, I have- The syncing would be merging both of them, right? I have his calendar and my calendar. Chaos. Literally can't read that.

But I'm a planner, that's my personality. Like I need to know the plan. Now and I, neither of us are planners. I think it worked though. Yeah. I think you guys should try syncing your calendars. See what happens. Yeah. Well, we'll probably have you guys do it sooner than later. I'm going to sync your calendars. How about that? Can I sync your calendars?

Amazing. I can't imagine looking at your calendar sync though. Like, it would be helpful, Talaya. I'm going to sync your calendars right after this. If I was looking at your and Natalie's calendars sync together, I can only imagine how like throw River's calendar in there. Oh, right. Yeah.

Diaper changing. Okay. This one is just making rules around having phone time. Messy. Dinner, bed, just to make sure that you're not on your phone in the middle of dinner. Listen, if someone who is on his phone too much and Simultaneously feels like phones are a detriment to our society and and I'm very much worried about it as a new father it's like hey, let's try to do this and let's try it like you know, there have been times where When Natalie and I have gone out to dinner. I haven't brought my phone

You know, but that was a choice I made Natalie never was like told me or asked me to do that. You better be doing it together, I'll say this much. It better not be one of those like, well, you're on your phone a lot, so you should never have your phone during this time. But I can. But you can, like that's never good.

You make up these rules and then neither of you follow, and it could be one of those things you guys weaponize against each other in an argument. I think it's more productive to, as a couple, say things like, we should really make an effort to try to do this, and what are some small things we can do? Maybe we try not bring our phones

the next time we go out to dinner. And it's more like that, rather than setting this rule that you inevitably are going to break, and then whoever breaks it first, the other person gets more frustrated. You know what, you see where I'm seeing how it gets messy? Yeah, 100%. So I think something that you say,

you're gonna, setting a goal as a team and motivating each other as a team to meet that goal, I think is productive. Coming up with all these like rules for you guys to inevitably not follow, to get frustrated at the other person, I think is a potential recipe for disaster. So I think it's all about how you go about doing it. And I think the rules need to be less rigid. And I think it needs to be more about

goal setting and team building. I really like you're not bringing your phone to date idea. Like a dinner date? That's a good idea. Even as a personal, like, for people being on your phone all the time and being so connected. And it's just like, I get anxiety when I don't respond to people. Cause I mean, my life is solving problems. I don't know if you guys realize that about,

like it's all I do now when I'm not, that's how it feels every day. As people just call me up with a problem, then and I, that's all I do now when I'm not, that's how it feels. Every day, people just call me up with a problem. Then, and that's all I do every day. So now I have this like anxiety of like, I have to have my phone on me because there might be a problem I need to fix without it not being solved. Which is obviously not true.

And you know, it's like, even if it was true, I have to set some boundaries. And just, if you're gonna go out to a restaurant, why should your phone be there? Or leave it in the car. Just leave it in the car, leave it at home. It's a nice little practice. It's an easy way to get a little bit of alone time

from your phone. That would give me so much anxiety. Well, more reason you should do it. I know, I know. I would just, my brain would be like, what if there's an emergency? Cause don't you have like phantom vibrations? I do.

Because if it says that's why, you might as well just throw it away. Not throw it away, but. I get them in the middle of the night too, where I'll like roll over and look at my phone. Well I was saying as someone who's 43, there was a whole, we had a whole working society where people like left for work,

went to the movie theaters, went to dinner, they didn't even have an answering machine at home. Like they didn't even get messages. And we were just fine. And then when an answering machine happened, then people would come back after being gone for 10 hours and have some you know messages. And now like we are available to everyone 24-7. It's not the way the world should work. So we had had it has to come from us to like go back to that. I should just carry around a pager. It's just in case of emergency.

All right, well, that was a fun little discussion. And we got some great calls lined up for you. Hope you guys enjoy them all. We certainly enjoy bringing them to you. Don't forget to send in those questions at asknickofthefiles.com for all things Ask Nick, texting office hours, mediation. You know the drill.

I think that's it. Let's get to our callers. Question time with Nick? Let's ask Nick your sexy questions. How's it going? I'm doing good, how about you? I'm all right, what's your name? My name is Bethany and I'm 35.

How can we help Bethany? I'm calling because I think my pilot husband had an emotional affair. Him being a pilot, is that part of the story? Are we just? Oh, it's part of the story for sure, because the person I think he had the emotional affair with was one of his co-pilots. Do you think this emotional affair is over?

As of two weeks ago, yes, it is supposedly over. OK, well. It's interesting the way you say it because it almost sounds like you were able to confirm some things. Is he denying that their emotional affair ever happened? No, he actually, he came to me and talked to me about what was going on. A little bit of like background on it is

they started flying together probably about six months ago. And it's not super unusual to have a female co-pilot. Like it happens sometimes, but it's kind of a male dominated industry for the most part. But which is changing rapidly, I think. Yeah, it is changing rapidly. And you know, I, I'm typically pretty chill. I'm not a jealous person. I'm usually like, yeah, whatever, it's cool, whatever. But something was just rubbing me the wrong way about their communication and their friendship. And I don't know, I kind of started speaking up to him about it.

They were talking some outside of work. And at one point it was on Christmas morning, she sent him a message being like, hey, we should plan something for the crew to do on New Year's. And I was kind of like, why are you texting my husband on Christmas morning about New Year's? It just felt off. She asked him to hang out on New Year's?

Yeah, they were flying together. He had to work on New Year's. Yeah, and I guess a pilot's schedule is kind of like, you travel with your crew, you kind of shack up whatever city you get laid over in, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they had a long layover wherever they were gonna be. So I just, I don't know.

I feel like that industry is ripe for infidelity. Yeah, it is. My husband actually says, oh my gosh, it's so embarrassing. He says that the pilots say they have a syndrome called AIDS, which is airline induced divorce syndrome. Oh, okay. Well, they probably need a really high divorce rate. They probably need a new acronym, maybe? Not the best acronym for sure. It's a little, you know, pretty tone deaf. A little insensitive to an entire community.

An entire community, yes. Anywho, so he acknowledges the risks or the, what is always going on. So, I mean, to be clear, he denies this has happened. He doesn't deny it. He sees it a little bit differently than I do. So after they flew together, yeah.

Semantics. Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very much semantics. They had a couple of months where they were repeatedly flying together, like five trips in a row. And in the airlines, that just doesn't happen. Like you're typically with a different crew almost every single time. And I just you can make special requests to fly with people. And typically, if you fly with someone that many times in a row, it's because someone has made a special request. So the schedule came out and I could see that he was flying with her

five trips in a row. And I'm like, hey, what is going on? You know, like, were, what is going on? You know, like, were you that calm or were you like this motherfucking bitch? It was probably more like this motherfucking bitch, you know, like I was kind of like, I'm, I'm really uncomfortable with this. I'm really uncomfortable that you're going to be fine with her this much. And I'm not really sure how it happened. And he just, this whole time while it's going on,

he's like, oh, you're just being jealous, you're just being insecure, like there's really nothing going on, like we're just friends, and I'm just glad that I finally have a friend, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when he's home, he's telling me how funny she is, and how smart she is, and how accomplished she is,

and just like all their inside jokes that they have going on and all this different stuff. What was your response to him calling you jealous and insecure? I'm not jealous and insecure. I'm trying to raise red flags. Is that what you said? That's what I said and I told him.

Did you point out to him? It's just like, first of all, like, I'm just really, I would have loved for you to say something like, really hurtful for you to just come at me like that and make it about like me. Regardless of what's going on, I'm voicing, you know, my concerns about a pattern that like, if you were in my shoes,

I'm assuming you would have the same concerns. Not only that, is that you have told me about this really insensitive anachronism that your entire industry has when it comes to infidelity and cheating. And you're telling him you're uncomfortable with situation and he's accusing you of being a certain way, like huge red flag huge huge

You know like you could have been like you're fucking cheating. Blah blah blah. You didn't do that. You were like, hey little weird Like I know this isn't normal not to mention like why the fuck is he coming home like? praising her to you The great question and you know, then that does start to cause insecurity, right? Like that becomes, yeah, okay, well, she seems like she's great. But I'm also great. Like, I have a master's degree, I have a pretty, I have a career that I worked really hard to get to, you know, we have two small

kids. And when he's gone, I'm everything falls on me, the house falls when he's gone, everything falls on me. The house falls on me, arranging childcare falls on me, getting kids to school, you know, cooking, cleaning, everything, everything falls on me. And so I'm just like, I mean, I think I'm pretty good. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry you have to convince yourself. I mean, not to convince yourself,

that sounds like you believe that, but I'm sorry it's not coming from anyone else but yourself. Where are we now? Well as of now, two weeks ago, he came home from their last trip that they had together and he said, I'll call her Sarah, that's probably easier, that's not her name. He came home and he said, well, you'll be happy to know that I ended my friendship with Sarah. And I was like, and did he say it like, did he say like you, this was your fault? Sort of like it was kind of like a, for me,

like I ended up my friendship because you were uncomfortable with it kind of thing. Like he said it almost in a resentful way. Yeah, yes. And I was like, I'm not dumb. Like something happened that made you have that conversation. Yeah, you didn't do it for me. No, no, no. And the re turns out that the reason why he did it was he went out with the entire crew, like flight attendants and her and everybody and stayed out drinking until like two o'clock in the morning and had like three or four martinis and apparently was

being flirtatious enough with her that the flight attendants were like, Hey, what's going on between you guys? And he was like, nothing, we're just friends. And they didn't believe him. How did you find this out? He told you? He told me. He's told me everything. Like he's been very, we typically have good communication. Like he's in therapy, I'm in therapy. I'm also a therapist.

So like we just talk a lot. So he, I mean, he came forward about all this and was like, so we have playful banter. That was his term the whole time, this playful banter. And I was like, look, most people call that flirting. And he was like, yeah, I don't think I can deny that. So this conversation with the flight attendants made him upset enough that he had a conversation with her

and decided to end their friendship. So that's where we're at right now. That tells me that there's more feelings involved. Okay, probably, maybe, I don't know. Do you think he's telling you the full truth? I question that. I question it. I do, more things as time goes on and as we talk about it more like in more details are coming out about stuff. Like he told me that on one of their trips

she was like, hey look at this picture of my husband. It's so funny I got him this gift and he wasn't thrilled about it. And it was a picture of her husband holding a copy of the Kama Sutra and with like this look of bewilderment on his face. And she was like, Yeah, I got that for him because stuff that's working in the bedroom isn't working anymore. And I just, I, he's told me that, uh, he told me about this conversation and I'm like, hello? Is that not super inappropriate to be talking about with a coworker? I don't know. What are the chances?

I don't know your husband, you know him, right? Is there a world in which this started fairly innocently and he was a little naive and then decided which this started fairly innocently and he was a little naive and then decided to stay naive. It seems pretty clear that you have a right to be upset and it seems pretty clear that if you had like a camera on him the whole time and you got to watch every interaction that he had with her, that you'd have a right to be upset regardless. But is it possible that, you

know, sounds like, you know, is it possible that she was the main instigator here and that your husband at first kind of looked the other way, like thought nothing of it, you know, I'm not flirting with her. You know, it started by him kind of, you know, when someone is flirting with you, and like you're in a relationship, you don't, you don't like, leave me alone, I have a girlfriend or a boyfriend. You know, you know, you know, shut the, you know.

You know, sometimes there's an awkwardness of like, yeah, sure, you know, ha ha ha ha, you laugh along with them, and you're like, I'm not doing anything, you know, I'm defusing an awkward situation. and is there a world where maybe like it kind of escalated to the point where it definitely got to a point of inappropriateness but maybe he never really was the instigator nothing really happened and then this night out when they all got drunk and these other

flight attendants approached him, he kind of felt like, you know, I'm flying too close to the sun here, you know? And I have my wife suspecting things. Now other people are observing me. You know what? Like, I can't kid myself anymore. This is getting inappropriate and I'm gonna, know yada yada yada. Is

there a world where that happened? Could you believe that? Or does that seem too... Am I making sense? You know like we're like at the end of day yeah he fucked up. Yeah there's some you know like even the way he handled how you approached it was uncalled for and, you know, disappointing and definitely a red flag. But is there a world where that's all that happened? Where what he's guilty of most is maybe flirting back, but, you know, not necessarily meant to be flirting where, you know, maybe he didn't want to fuck her, things like that. But he thought she was a charming, good colleague and then she just took it the wrong way and she kept leaning in and he kept being like, no, no, no, we're just friends.

No, no, no, we're just friends. And now it's like, oh fuck, people think we want to fuck. And then he kind of shut it down or do you think that something else happened bigger and you're getting this bullshit story you know that's 25% true and 75% like he's leaving out you know a bunch of other shit right I don't think I do think it started out innocently I do think that he I mean he's always been more comfortable around women, you know, like he just is, he's just kind of got that personality where he just,

I don't know, gets along with women better. And so I don't think that it started out with bad intentions. I do know though, that at a certain point, he recognized that he was getting stuff from their friendship that he wasn't getting from his relationship with me. And he told me that. Like what? I just hate, he told me that in the middle of our conversation, like, basically that he's like, I mean, she, we have so much fun together and you know, I just, it felt good to have someone to talk to. And I'm like, I thought that we talked a lot, you like, I thought that we talked a lot.

I thought that we had fun together. I thought that we were in a good place. And he was just like, yeah, I mean, she was fulfilling things that I need that I'm not getting from you. Such as what? And to me that, I mean, he's not been super clear on that.

Just mostly- I can guess. What's unfortunate for any long-term committed relationship, any marriage, any relationship with kids, it's a fucking grind. There's work involved. I'm guessing what she offered him was a breath of fresh air, something new, someone who could just carelessly joke around about work and things like that. She didn't come with any responsibility or expectations of him. Where you're like, hey, I know you've been gone for three days, but I've been with the kids by myself for three days, and I know you want to kick up your feet and chill,

but can you fucking help out? And shit like that. And she's just always like, you look so good in your uniform. And listen, that is something that every married couple or couple relationship has to deal with. Like that's the scary part about any committed relationship is that everyone else that our partners meet

can offer them something we can't, because we will never be able to offer them something new. You know, like, you know, we'll never be able to offer them a change of pace, so to speak. You know, something that's just, I don't know what it is, it's just different, you know, like that kind of, you know, which we all kind of crave sometimes, you know? Life can get monotonous, monotonous, monotonous.

Life can get boring and routine and regular. And sometimes we, as couples, I'm sure you both have taken each other for granted at times. I'm sure you both could have made the other person feel more appreciated at times. Like this is literally every fucking relationship. You know what I'm saying?

And some people will find that in other people, coworkers and friends and things like that. And then instead of dealing with their shit, they'll, you know, so it's just like, yeah, he's probably telling the truth, but it's just really hurtful. That's just like, you know, so it's just like, it's, yeah, he's probably telling the truth, but it's just really hurtful. That's just like, you know, without him being specific, I can, I can guess with the level I think of accuracy of what she's offering him, which is literally

just like something different. Yeah. And that's totally fair. And you know, I get that, like life does get hard having two little kids. It's chaos. You know, they're all over the place and stuff like that. I don't know. The car, he originally was pretty apologetic about it. And then as the couple of weeks have gone by, like the conversation has turned more towards like,

well, you don't keep up the house enough when I'm gone or you don't. yeah, I know. Or, you know, I feel like I don't, you know, when I come home, it's a mess. And like, we have a five-year-old and a two-year-old. Like, there's gonna be a mess. But our house is not that messy. It's like messy to his standards. And also, I work full-time. I'm gone a lot while he's gone too.

And I just, there's not a lot. Is he normally a prick? Is this a new prick? We've had a lot of arguments in the past about housework and stuff, because we're just very different in how we, I mean, he doesn't expect me to do everything, but at the same time, there's

random things that he sometimes is like, he picks and chooses. Like he's like, the laundry never gets done. Well, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you, yeah, I know you're another adult that lives in this house, maybe not full-time, but you're still here and I'm sorry that you have to spend your off days doing laundry, but I have to spend my off days solo parenting, you know? So... So what can I help out with? I really needed just some like, I guess some perspective on like, is this... I... You've already said that, you know, I have a right to be upset about it. In my mind, I call this an emotional affair.

I don't know if every man would look at it that way or not. So I'm curious. I think the label is kind of a mood point. My mood point might be the wrong word. You know, I guess I wouldn't spend a lot of energy convincing yourself and then trying to convince him to admit to an emotional affair. I mean, maybe it might come to that.

But what I'm hearing is clearly there's a disconnect between the two of you. You know, I don't know what happened with her, something happened. He's acknowledged as much, you know. He might be projecting some guilt and frustrations, trying to make you feel like the bad, there's a lot of, it sounds like a lot of that

where he's coming at you because he's trying to shift the blame because he feels guilty. People do that all the fucking time. But something's going on. I guess you gotta ask yourself, I'm getting the vibe from you that you believe that, you know, he didn't fuck her, so to speak. Or that there was no physical cheating. And I'm getting the vibe from you that whatever did happen,

you're willing to accept and forgive. Would that be accurate? So knowing that, you know, it comes down to trying to reconnect with your husband, trying to get on the same page, trying to figure out, like I don't know what happened, something happened, it's affecting us, it's affecting me, it's affecting you,

I don't really like how you've been treating me recently, I just don't feel like we are as connected. Quite honestly, it's hurtful to hear about you admitting that you got your needs met by some other woman. Imagine how that might make me feel. And saying something like, listen, I don't know what happened, but you just have to ask yourself that if the roles,

if I did everything you did, whatever it is that you did, and if I had some other guy meet my needs in ways that you haven't been, how would that make you feel? I don't know, you know the truth, I don't. You know every little detail of what happened between the two of you, I just have to trust you. And you just have to ask yourself,

how would you feel if it was the other way around? Obviously, you guys are pro therapy, a couple therapy, is that in the mix for you guys? You're individual therapy, but this sounds like a reconnecting needs to happen. Maybe you guys use this as an opportunity to say, hey, listen, let's not point fingers here, but what do we wanna do?

Hey, let's check in. You seem like I'm getting vibes of resentment, I'm getting vibes of frustration and hostility towards me. Meanwhile, I'm just trying to figure out whether you wanna be with me or are you out there shopping around for a new girlfriend? Do you want to be with me? Do you wanna make this,

we're at a bump in the road in our marriage, happens to maybe every fucking marriage, I don't know. There's a lot of reasons for us to, there's a lot of, you could almost offer each other grace. Listen, you're busy, I'm busy, we have two young kids, there are a lot of reasons for us to like feel disconnected. You know, that's maybe no one's fault other than like, hey, life is hard.

But do we wanna make this work or not? You know, like where do we go from here? You know, kind of make it about the relationship rather than coming at him. You know, because I feel like what you guys need to do is, you know, whether it's in couples therapy or just, the relationship rather than coming at him. Because I feel like what you guys need to do is, whether it's in couples therapy or just, you guys are using individual therapy, I don't know.

You need to kind of decide whether you want to come together or not. And if by coming together, you have to acknowledge that maybe there needs to be some healing and some work done, maybe some honest conversations about, maybe there's a venting session, well, you never fucking do this, you never fucking do that.

And me, I was like, yes, fine, you know what, I did deploy with her and I'm really sorry, and blah, blah, blah. And maybe some truths will come out, hopefully all of them which you'll be able to forgive. But this is all for the point of figuring out how can we heal and rebuild the relationship. Because it doesn't sound like you're trying to figure out

if you need to divorce your husband or break up with him. It's like you wanna A, and I'm not saying the truth doesn't matter. I think to get to the truth, the goal needs to be to where do we go from here? How do we reconnect? Do you wanna reconnect? Is he committed as you are to fixing this marriage?

But there needs to be an acknowledgement that right now you guys are not connected. There's a lot of resentment. There's a lot of frustration. There's hostility. And I'm not trying to point fingers here, but what I want to do is get back to a healthier state of our relationship. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's good. I mean, we're, we're in the process of finding a couple's therapist and hopefully getting on it. I do think, I mean, I think we're both committed to it. I'm, I'm just, I'm nervous. I'm nervous that, you know, my feelings about this whole situation are going to make me, you know, worried for a long time about what he's doing when he's gone. And that was not something that I ever worried about before.

So, you know, which, of course, is some of my own stuff that I just have to work through. And that's a no. I mean, here, your husband does live in an industry where it's very easy and convenient to cheat. Like even the most righteous people, you put yourself in a bad situation. And I always like to use food analogies but I'm really good at not eating sugar when there's no sugar around. You know what I'm saying? And when I'm like surrounded by it, you know, temptation is, well it's temptation. It eventually gets you. It gets everyone. Part of, you know, maintaining your

character and making good choices is about avoiding tough situations. Well, you're unfortunately, your husband is the nature of the business is you're often working with people, you know, that you're away from your family a lot. You're overnight. It's an industry that, you know, surprisingly, it seems like a lot of pilots are heavy drinkers. Yeah, they are. Which is, you know, a bit concerning for the rest of us. But yeah, but like, yeah, they, you know, they go out there. They're in some like random fucking city.

What do they do? They go out to the fucking bars, they hang out, you know, and they drink with their colleagues and they catch up. So like all it takes is two people. This probably, again, this probably, it started, again, probably innocently. Here's this female co-pilot, this woman co-pilot, whose husband's not fucking her the way that she wants,

type of thing, rolled her eyes. My guess is she bought this book for her husband trying to spice things up, and he did the thing that a lot of guys do when women in relationships make an effort to try to reconnect, they rolled their eyes and make their woman partners feel stupid for trying. Who's this fucking?

The men will let their insecurities shine, unfortunately. And like, oh, with the bookable commerce, who's real, we don't fucking need that. My dick's big enough, you know? Like, I don't know, whatever it is. And like, and then she felt like a little like dismissed and like, you know, she put all this effort in and then here she is as, you know know this male pilot and she's just kind

of venting and he listens and she feels hurt and seen and like you know what I'm saying like it's not that hard to you know it takes a couple like a little little spark a little gasoline and all of a sudden you have a flame you know so to speak so yeah like you have the right to feel how you know like I wouldn't spend a lot of time be like well I used to never worry and now I do you know, so to speak. Yeah. So yeah, like you have the right to feel how, you know, like I wouldn't spend a lot of time being like, well, I used to never worry and now I do, you know? Like maybe you were just a little naive. Unfortunately, your husband works in,

I guess my point is, unfortunately, your husband works in an industry where you always have a right, you should always be in some kind of, yeah, I don't think you want to live anxiously constantly and always be afraid, but like, you know, there's the difference between, and I've had to learn this the hard way. I've always prided myself in being the trusting partner.

You know, I choose to trust and I do, you know, like I don't go through people's phones. I just don't have it in me. Like, it's just like, I'd rather just not go through your phone, you know, because like the exercise of going through it, it already feels fucked, you know. That being said, you know, and I've used this analogy before, it's just kind of like when things don't make sense, you need to speak up. You can't just be like, well, my partner would never, you know, it's just like, hey, you know, me and the girls are going to go to this volleyball game, you know, it's just

like, oh, cool, I have fun. Who's going to be there? Well, it's like, and then you find out it's a bunch of dudes, you know, it's like, well, why am I not invited? You know, it's like, oh, well, you know, you don't like volleyball. It's like, I don't really have an opinion about volleyball, but like, I would play it's like, is it coed or is this like a super serious, you know what I'm saying? It's just like, why am I not invited? You know, type of thing, you know? And so, you know, like this is not the best analogy in your case, but like there's one thing

to trust your partner and there's another thing of like just recognizing that your husband lives, works in an industry that will always offer up temptation. So it's just good to check in and stay connected. And I don't know what, you know, how do you guys stay connected when he's on the road? Yeah, we usually try to talk on the phone once or twice a day.

But is it always like, hey, how's it going? What's going up with the kids? Is it always about like what needs to get done? And just, you guys need to set it outside about like what needs to get done and just you guys need to set it outside some like alone time, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It usually is about like... Do you send nudes? Hey, no.

Okay, well, just saying. I know. Okay, okay, okay. Well, listen, I don't want you to feel like you have to do that now, but I'm just saying, you know, it's a- Couldn't hurt. Nudes in a relationship when there's distance involved are a great way to keep someone missing you

and looking forward to coming home and seeing you, you know? Yeah. Spice things up. So yeah, listen, I think you just need to talk. I, and I think when he overreacts and says hurtful things, it's really, really important for you to remain calm. It's really important for you to take that breath and be like, listen, that's hurtful. I don't know why you're saying what you're saying. I'm again, and you gotta be careful not to try to throw out jabs and accusations.

We're all human, but as you know, I mean you're the therapist, that's just gonna trigger each other. So I know easier said than done, but get in that couples therapy and kind of find that recommitment. But like, and my hope is that there will more, there's probably more truths to come out.

But I think he needs to first acknowledge and maybe apologize for how he's, and then maybe he has already, I don't know. Has he acknowledged that like calling you these things was quite hurtful or just the way he's talking to you right now, where's, again, when he talks that way, instead of getting mad and defensive, from my point of view, it's just like,

okay, well, first of all, where's this coming from? That's, this sounds a little, this sounds hostile. Why are you coming at me all of a sudden? Maybe I could, but this seems like you're coming at me for a reason, where is this coming from? Well, I'm just like, well, okay. Do you miss her that much, man? I'm like, I'm.

You know? I miss her that much, man. Like I'm. You know? I didn't, you know, and like anytime he implies that somehow he had to give up this friendship for you, it's like I would again try to remain calm. It's like no, clearly you didn't. I voiced my concerns about this friendship.

You tried to defend that friendship and you weren't willing to give it up for me. You were only willing to give it up once you got called out by a work colleague. So let's not pretend that you did this for me. You did this because you either A, finally woke up and saw what I've been seeing, or B, you know, you're just kind of covering your ass

because you don't wanna have rumors be spread around that you're fucking your coworker. Yeah, yeah. So. Yeah, that's true, yeah. Okay, that helps. That helps me have a little bit of an idea of how to approach it in the future

because it's not a one conversation and done kind of thing. It's we're gonna have to keep talking about it. And I have to have some way to respond that isn't just like getting pissed off, like crying, you know? Which is understandable and human. But I think that you got to lead with,

listen, this has been really hard on me and I still love you. And I, you know, I'm committed to us. I hope you still are, but this has been a really hurtful experience. You have done and said some things that made me, quite honestly, make me question your love for me or your commitment to me.

And I hate feeling this way. Instead of saying, you did this, just be like, I now feel like further away from you. I don't know how you feel about me anymore. I don't know how I could. I hope I can trust you. But you're really making it difficult for me. And on top of that, now you're questioning me as a mother.

You're questioning how much effort I put in this relationship. You're coming at me for what the house looks like. Meanwhile, like you have, you're openly telling me about a late night out at the bars getting drunk. I don't remember the last time I had a chance to go out and get drunk with my friends. So maybe point out the obvious, you know, but you really got to do it calmly, you know, that's the trick, which I know is really easier said than done.

But it's really about trying to come together, you know? And you gotta play the whole aw shucks, like I'm hurting. Well, which is true, you know? Rather than, you know, cause when you get mad and angry and defensive, it just gives him an excuse to come back at you. I'm just really sad. I'm sad.

I'm sad because I feel like my husband is, you know, going through something and instead of coming to me for that, he is seeking out help in other places. And that's, I don't know, I'm sad. Yeah. I think sadness and hurt is more effective than anger. That is true.

I wish it wasn't so easy to get angry. I hear you. Well, I mean, I don't know. If I were you, I'd be pretty sad about this situation. Yeah, yeah, I have been sad about it. Yeah. I just, yeah, I have been sad about it. Yeah. I just, yeah, I do a good job sometimes of compartmentalizing things and keeping it off to the side

so that I can keep on living my life and doing things. Yeah, I'm gonna have to take some time to feel the sadness and let myself grieve some of this and know that that's okay to do that. For sure. I'd love to talk to you both at the same time. Whoever takes me up on that. Yeah. Who knows? Well, we're here. I'm sorry you're going through this. It sucks.

Thank you so much. But try to, it's clear that you want to make this work. So acknowledge the disconnect and see if you guys can mutually agree to reconnect. I think it's, when you break it all down, that's what you need, that's the next step. And get a commitment from the both of you of saying, you know what, we're not on the same page. We've both done and said some things

that maybe the other person didn't deserve, but we wanna make this work and we're both willing to do what it takes, and then go from there. And that doesn't end the healing process. Again, you might have a long road of some couples therapy and some acknowledgements and some owning up to some things and some of those sessions might be hurtful,

but the goal is hopefully to always feel a little bit more connected and safer with your partner at the end of each session, you know? You can go from there. Yeah, okay. All right, well, we would love an update. And again, if you guys wanna call in together, I certainly will share my thoughts to him.

Okay. All right. Be like, what the fuck, dude? What do you expect, man? Right. You know, be like, yeah, maybe go out and flirt with some dudes. I'm kidding. But I do think, you know, I don't know if you have used this line with him yet, be like,

it's simply just like, again, I don't even need to know. You don't have to tell me. Close your eyes, think of everything you did with her. You only have to face yourself. And if the roles were reversed, how would you feel? If I did, whatever you did, if I did exactly what you did, you know, how would you feel? Yeah, no, that's good.

Yeah, that's good. Make it less about him having to tell me all the details and more about him having to think about His actions and you know, it sounds like even even if you you can say to him like I'm just gonna go ahead and believe you because I have no other choice but even still think about if the roles were reversed and I have no other choice, but even still, think about if the roles were reversed and I was gone constantly and I had a male coworker

that was hitting me up and asked me to hang out and other people thought something was going on. What kind of ideas would that plant in your head? How would that make you feel? Would you be as, like, would you handle, what would you think? You know? I'd be interested to hear what he has to say.

Yeah. All right, well keep us posted. We would definitely, we were definitely interested to see where this goes. Okay, absolutely. All right, take care. Thank you so much. All right, bye bye.

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You've heard Leia talk about some of the success stories that her loved ones and family and friends have found on Hinge. Allie is on Hinge as well. Again, those prompts, we always talk about like, you know, first dates and talking to someone and getting the conversation going. When you're dating, it's all about trying to get to know each other and you do that through questions and we understand it can be nervous. What do you ask these people? Do you want to, you don't want to be too personal.

Well, let Hinge do the hard work of coming up with some of these very kind of easy but direct prompts that gets the conversation going and helps two people connect in ways that maybe want them to lead an app because that's what it's all about. Well, I have exciting news, everyone, because I am going on a date on Sunday. Oh my God.

A man I met on Hinge, yes. I will keep you all updated. What was his prompt that intrigued you? Well, he had a poll on there, and he was like, pick your favorite show of all time, which was kind of like a fun little way to start playing a little game. Congrats, excited.

Thanks to Hinge, Ali is going to find love. On Hinge, there are no rules, timers or games. If you're feeling inspired, give Hinge a try. Download Hinge today and find someone worth deleting the app for. How's it going? Hi, my name is Jamie and I'm 34. So I just reconnected with my biological father and his wife, Hapesme.

Okay. How long ago did you reconnect with your biological father? I got in touch with him for the first time in January of 2023. What made you reconnect after all these years? Really just curiosity, honestly. I met my biological mom when I was 18 and we've had a really wonderful

relationship. Were you given up for adoption? Is that what it was? Yeah, I was adopted when I was three days old. Okay. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. And were your biological parents ever together? No, no. My dad at the time was in the Navy and he was getting ready to leave on a contract, I think for a couple years. And he basically felt like my mom had made the choice for them that she was going to follow through with adoption. She had actually already given up one other child for adoption prior to me. And so he ended up signing over his rights. So he knew that there was a baby out there, but he didn't know if I was a boy or a girl

or when I was born. He literally knew nothing about you. No, he knew nothing about me. Wow. And you reconnected with your biological mother when? I was 18. Okay. What's your relationship like

with your adopted parents these days? Great, wonderful. They were always very open and honest about the adoption and really had only wonderful things to say about my biological mom. They had really no obviously input on my biological dad because they didn't know anything about either but it was always a very open discussion and conversation in our household. How did you find them? The story gets a little crazier, honestly. We love a crazy story. The adoption was never fully finalized. And when I, we lost my birth certificate like along the way. This is crazy, actually. We lost my birth certificate along the way somehow and I couldn't

go to college without proper identification. I couldn't get my driver's license. There was a lot of things that I couldn't do without my original birth certificate. So when I was 18, I tried to request it myself and the department of whoever was like, yeah, your social security isn't matching up with who you say you are. And so we had no choice but to contact my biological mom and we had her social security. So we had some friends that helped us locate her.

Interesting, wow. Yeah, it's like, yeah, there's a lot more background, but I won't take up all the time. Were you like, how did that, like were you like a citizen of the United States? So like, did you not exist on paper? Like were you, you know? No, I did.

I don't know why they couldn't like verify me, but as soon as my mom... I'm surprised the CIA didn't recruit you, you know? Like, it's like, oh... I know, I know, I'm seriously... But... She's got no identity, you know? As soon as my mom got involved, she was able to request the documentation that I needed to go to college.

And then from that point, we started emailing and then phone calls. And then we've had a wonderful relationship. Wonderful. That's so nice to hear. Since then. And then how about, how did we get in touch with dad later on? Well, I had always been curious. I've been on and off ancestry and my sister was talking about her ancestry and I just always been curious. I've been on and off Ancestry, and my sister was talking about her Ancestry,

and I just got curious again. Is your sister also adopted, or she? No, these were like the two sisters that my parents had naturally before they adopted me. Gotcha. So I just got curious, so I decided to hop back on Ancestry and see if I had any new matches. And I did have a new match on the paternal side, which I didn't have that

many to begin with. And she looked young and she looked like she was my age. So I thought, let's just find her on Facebook, see if she knows anything. And I did. This was like a Friday evening, like seven o'clock. By 11 p.m. that night, I had gotten in touch with her, asked her if she had anyone in her family with his first and last name. She said that she did. And by that evening, it had come full circle and he had received information that I was looking for him. Who was the girl you talked to? Like my third cousin or something. Oh. Like not anyone really even, I think our- Does she really even know who your biological father was?

How did she- Sort of, yeah, she actually has a really close relationship with my biological aunt. Our dads are like first cousins. Gotcha. So I don't know what that makes us, but. And so what, like she quickly emailed your aunt or something who emailed him and by like,

By that night, yeah, the circle had been completed, yeah. And then who reached out to who? He reached out to me, I think on Sunday evening and he texted me and we set up a phone call for the following Monday morning. What did that first text say? Oh gosh, I'll have to look it up. I'm sure it was something like, you know, I'm your dad. Nice to meet you or something along those lines.

Can you find it? Yeah, I can find it. We don't text that often, so it shouldn't take me too long to scroll back. But coincidentally, that was like January 17th maybe. And coincidentally, I was going to his- Of this year. Last January. Okay. 2023. Yeah.

Coincidentally, I was going to his city for work in like two weeks after that. And so we kind of set up a time to meet in between my work meetings and stuff. January 9th, he said, oh wait, now I don't have the original message. This message is just him letting me know he's running behind and that he would call me shortly.

But from what you remember, it was kind of like him reaching out and saying, hey, I'm your dad. Basically, yeah, yeah, pretty much. Like I heard, you know, it was kind of like him reaching out and saying, hey, I'm your dad. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Like I heard, you know, I heard. So it was a generally a kind and welcoming message. Definitely. He's certainly very kind, very warm to, you know, opening to meeting me.

We had a really great first meeting. We just met at like a bar around the corner from where I was. It's just ironic because where we were having dinner for my work evening program or whatever, was a restaurant that he like used to work at. So it's just very strange that I happened to be not only in the state, but so close to where he like worked and lived. It's not that, I get that it feels strange to you

because it's like you went your whole life without knowing who he was. But like when you think about it, I don't know what you, but it makes a lot of sense that you were closer than you realize. He's your biological father. And in part of this community and,

so it's not that crazy. So you met up and like how did that first meeting go? It was great, I mean it's always really shocking. This is my third time meeting a biological family member so I feel like I'm like kind of a pro at it now. But it was always very shocking. I found a brother I didn't know about. Who, was that the first child your mom gave up for adoption? Yeah, she didn't tell anyone about that until he came knocking on my ancestry doorstep as well.

He reached out to you? Yeah. Okay. How's that relationship with him now these days? Oh, not good. That should be like another vile episode because that didn't go well. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, that's okay. Is he struggling in life? Yeah, I think didn't go well. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, that's okay. Is he struggling in life? Yeah, I think he, yeah.

How did things leave after your first interaction with your dad? I mean, it was great. We had a lot to talk about and I left feeling happy and excited and he dropped me off at my hotel and I remember him like kissing the top of my head. It just made me feel like a small child again and it was just like a nice moment.

I don't know, it was just like a nice moment. And what did he, I'm curious, I'm fascinated. Like what did he, when you met up, like, I mean listen, like how old was he when he had you or when you were born? They were like 20 probably. Yeah, so like, you know, he must be feeling all these sorts of emotions, but like, what did he,

like, I guess what was his, what was he sharing? Like, what did he? I think the overall overarching theme of our meeting was just like, this is crazy. Like, I can't believe you kind of look like me. And he never really knew what had happened either. Like, he didn't even know you were a boy or a girl, like you said, that you kind of look like me. And he never really knew what had happened either. He didn't even know you were a boy or a girl, like you said, that's kind of nuts.

Yeah. So I got to share a lot of stories with him in terms of like the perspective from the other side of the street and how everything played out. So there was a lot of information just to share in general and he brought some pictures with him, which was really nice.

And we talked about his kids and we talked about my kid and it was just really nice and I like I said I left feeling like really hopeful and excited and it was a very like loving interaction. Okay and then what happened after that like where you know? We stayed in touch, we texted, we called. I had plans, so that was in January, and I had plans to see him again in August. I had to go back to his city for work. So it was kind of like, okay, this will be great. We have like something else now to look forward to at another time that we can get together.

And I just wanted to give him time to like process all of this. He had never shared this information with his wife. Okay, that was my next question. So she never knew until I came back into the picture and he had to be like, hey. That's what I suspected. You know, and by the way, before we, you know,

she doesn't hate you at all. No. She's so mad at the situation. She hates him a little bit right now. She's upset with the situation. It completely rewrote her view on her family. Right. And I don't know who she is,

and I don't know how traditional or set in her ways, but she hates. know who she is and I don't know how like traditional or set in her ways or you know, but she hates, she definitely does, she doesn't appreciate your existence, which is a weird thing to say. But it's not you. It's not, it has nothing to do with you. She's just so mad at the situation. Her picture perfect life and who even knows how perfect it was but her marriage at 25 years and how many kids did they have together? Three. They had three kids together and all of a sudden, you know, this is a, it must feel

like a really huge lie to her. Absolutely. And that's why, so it's been a year and some change, right, since we've met. They still haven't told their kids. Okay. And I feel like I've just been giving them space to process this. Have you ever reached out to her?

No, I haven't reached out to her personally. I just feel like, yeah, if I was in her shoes, I don't know how it'd feel if my husband of 25 years came to me and said, oh, our oldest child isn't actually our firstborn. I had another daughter already. And I'm sure that's a lot to process and I'm sure she has her own feelings about it.

So I don't wanna pressure anyone to like meet me or have to do something because I'm like, hey, I'm here, let's have a relationship. What was the, like what have you communicated about with your biological father? Like in these past, you know know the few times you do text? Um just hey what'd you do this weekend? What's going on? He'll talk about his the kids oh the kids are home from college we're going to do this or I'm going to my daughter's dance recital or you know just normal. How old are his kids? 14 and then the older two are in college age.

How old is he? Probably in his 50s? Yeah, something like that. So he's not that old. No. He's a pretty young guy. Have you asked him about, like, I mean, clearly he's communicated to you that he still hasn't told his kids.

Did that come with a request of you respecting some boundaries so that they don't find out? No, there's not been any request. The only thing he's ever said was, we joked about something being posted on Facebook and I was like, oh yeah, I really wanted to respond to that, but I didn't. And he was like, oh yeah, I'm glad that you didn't. But he's never flat out been like,

don't contact my children, don't post this, don't post that. He's never asked me to do anything or not do anything. That's okay. But I've also not, that's where I'm starting to like, that's why I reached out to you because I am getting to a point where at what point do I say like, the last conversation I had with him,

it was a great convo. And then of course, the last five minutes, it was like, Hey, so I don't, I basically communicated to him, this doesn't feel realistic for you and I to continue to build this relationship. If you were a wife and your kids are not going to be on board and involved. This doesn't be, I'm not going to stay like a hidden sibling for the rest of my life. What did he say? He was like, no, I get that and I understand. And, you know, my wife just, she's just really still trying to process this information. And I, that's all I really said. I didn't

put any parameters around that. And I'm, I'm thinking about the next conversation I want to have with him and maybe putting some boundaries in place of, let's put a goal, you know, by the end of this year, maybe we could transition to a family meeting or maybe we could have dinner together or he tried to facilitate a dinner. Like I said, I was supposed to go to his city in August and he wanted the three of us, his wife, me and himself to have dinner together. And he told me that his wife would not have come to dinner. He basically said, well, she did have plans before that, but I feel like this dinner trumped any plan she would have had anyways, but she wasn't planning on cutting.

She's just not ready. She's not ready. She's not ready. Yeah. And that's I that is fine. That is okay. It has only been a year. Yeah. Not that long of time. That's what I was kind of gonna say you know it's like you've you waited this long I wouldn't push it. You know I just you sound like just a really sweet person and understanding and empathetic and patient and you didn't ask for any of this. This is the life that you were given as a three day old child.

And here you are having to deal with all this kind of emotional reconnecting that you didn't even, I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes. But I guess my, if I met you in an elevator and you told me and I had 30 seconds to give you my two cents, my two cents would be like, just be patient. It sounds like overall there's a lot of positivity here. The fact that your biological father,

I gotta assume him reaching out to you first must have felt so much better than you having to reach out to say, hey, I'm your kid. And him kind of being playing the father role of like, hey, it's my responsibility to let you know, hey, I'm your dad and I'm here and let's meet up and he brought some pictures, immediately must have made you feel somewhat accepted versus not even sure if he wanted any, I mean, you know, I'm guessing when you first found out like this this this motherfucker might just pretend I'm not his dad or I'm not his daughter, you know, you know, like short of like me forcing some sort of paternity test like he's just gonna deny

deny deny that was That was an option. Absolutely, and you never know what you're gonna get in that situation. So I think there's just, I think one, I'm hearing, like there's your adopted parents still in the picture, right, you have this positive relationship with them? Yeah, with my dad, my mom passed away a couple years ago, but yeah.

I'm sorry to hear that. And how has that relationship changed, if at all, since your biological father has entered the chat? I don't think it's changed at all. He's always been so supportive and encouraging of me having a relationship with my biological family. Okay. He's wonderful.

Yeah, I guess my advice right now is to lean into your adopted father. You know, whatever you've, you know, because there must be a sense and I'm again, I'm just guessing here and having no idea how to relate to you. But there's got to be some sense of desire to further this relationship with your biological father, you know, which I totally get. And obviously as you know, as you know, like just there's other people to deal with, there's other emotions, and so you unfortunately can't go at the pace that you wish you could. And maybe your biological father as well.

Right. And I just think that that desire for connection in general, I would use that to just further evolve and build your relationship with your adopted father. Like whatever your biological father can give you, like there's a, I know a place that you can get it, you can get it from your adopted father. To some degree, I know, I know that, you know, I guess all I'm saying is like, I can completely understand and empathize with this desire to move things forward and like to set, you know, hey next time I talk to my adopted father, I'm going to kind of throw out there like, hey what about this? And you, last time you talked, you kind of, you know, set like a mini boundary,

like a future expectation of like, I don't know if I can keep doing this if you're not going to kind of acknowledge that I exist, your kids and your wife, which makes a lot of sense, but that's coming from a place of urgency. And I'm just wondering if channel that energy into hanging out with that, so that you can continue to be patient. Because you waited 30 some years to find out about your biological father and what's a few more months

or another year or two to let his wife just accept, well she just needs to accept that you exist and she just hasn't yet. There's probably some denial going on here and I can appreciate where she's coming from. She has a lot of reasons to be upset with your dad. Yeah. And I can get where your dad's coming from. He's here as a 20 year old man, joined the fucking Navy, got, you know, knocked

up this probably girl he knew nothing about. And so, you know, it's just like, I don't even, he didn't even know your gender. You know, that's so like, he knew. And so it was so easy for him to just out of sight, out of mind, start over. And one of those things where it's just like, well, I'm not going to, why tell her? I don't even like for all he knew your mom decided not to go through the pregnancy. Right. Right.

So, you know, Hey, I knocked up a girl that I don't even know. Like, I don't, I don't know if I have a kid that, that, that was the truth. He had to decide whether to tell your, you know, the fact that you do exist, his wife is kind of like, she sees it as a lie. Yeah. There's a lot to unpack.

Yeah, I also think about like, well, I definitely don't think I'm owed anything at all from them, but it also is like, well, what about my siblings? Like, I want to meet them. I want to have an opportunity to have a relationship with them. It doesn't feel right for me to reach out to them. That feels that doesn't feel okay. And I certainly think that yeah, maybe I just need more they need they need more time. But I guess it's like, at what point is it like five years, 10 years, and I'm just still hanging around, you know, at some point it's like...

Fair question. And I don't have an answer. Sure. I do feel like, I do feel like one year, you can still wait. Yeah. Well, and a part of me too, and my husband pushes this often just because he obviously wants to protect and care for me. But he's like, I don't understand why they wouldn't want to meet you. Like you're wonderful. They don't know you exist. Yeah. Well, he's saying his wife, his wife, my dad's wife, you know. I can think of a million reasons why she doesn't want to meet you. Yeah.

I know. I think before you, whatever your timeline is, yeah, you should, before you do anything with the kids, you need to connect with her. Oh, absolutely, and I would never go around them and do that, it just. You know, listen, I think it's like, next time you talk to your biological father, just check in with them.

Be like, you know, just one is always you say, like, I just gotta say, you know, lead with love type of thing. You'd always hear me say shit like that. Just like, can I just say, like, I was really nervous about meeting you. I met my biological brother. Things didn't go that way.

It could have gone a million different ways. And I'm just like so glad that like, you are the person that you are and that you've been so like welcoming and open to having a relationship with me. And so it means a lot. And so thank you and empathize with him. I'm sure you're probably, I probably, me knocking on your door metaphorically, probably put

an unexpected turn in your life and it would probably have been easier for you to just deny me than accept me. And so honestly, thank you. And so start with that. And then after that, kind of say like, but I'm hoping, I'm still hoping that we can further this relationship. And I want to acknowledge that this must be really difficult

for your wife and I want to go at your pace, but I'm still hopeful that you and I can build a relationship, you know. And I just kind of want to check in and see what that looks like. And then he can kind of give you the 411 on like what that does look like, where she's at. And depending on what he says, you know, you could be like, well, is there a world where

like would she be open to me like writing her a letter, you know, or and that letter could you know, more than anything, you empathize with her like, listen, hey, I just want to I know you don't know who I am, and we haven't met and I can and I want to apologize for Whatever inconvenience me reaching out did but like I'm hoping that maybe down the road or whenever There's a comfort level that I can connect with you, you know, because it doesn't mean a lot It sounds like you know, whatever your biological father's name is, you know Sounds like you you got a really great husband in Dan and I'm really glad that he was able to find

someone like you to give him a really happy life and it sounds like you have a great family. I hope to someday connect with you guys. I don't wanna disrupt whatever happiness that you guys have. You know what I'm saying? Like really try to empathize with her. And it's almost like you're writing a letter of a girlfriend of hers.

Like you write the letter not as the adopted child, but like if you had a girlfriend who came to you who was like, I just found out my husband had a kid from 20 years ago, what do I do? You know? And all you're thinking is I just need to empathize with her and like listen, you know, girl to girl, just like girl, vent to me,

tell me how you're feeling, like everything, your feelings are valid, you know, like so I think you have to validate her feelings and then kind of not, you know, just kind of like, and then you validate her feelings and then offer some hope of what you hope to happen without pushing. You know? Something like that, if that makes sense?

No, honestly, I think that's a really great idea and I think I'm going to do that. Yeah, but give it some time. Yeah, like I understand the urgency and I don't know if it's five or 10 years, but yeah, probably not 10, probably closer to five, you know, of like, because after you reach out to her, you know checking with your dad first step one Whenever you talk to your dad next, you know, let them know that like hey, thanks

This is this has gone better than I hoped, you know It could have gone a million different ways and so so I appreciate this. And then I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful we can build on this. And then maybe you could say like, listen, I know that, I think maybe you wanna pull back from that boundary you tried to set where you're like, hey, listen, if you're not gonna incorporate me, then maybe we can't have a relationship.

And he was understanding. You could say, listen, I said that because I'm just really anxious to build my connections and things like that, but can I understand where this is coming from? So just know that I can be patient, but I'm just hoping that this grows. Sure.

And then maybe that will allow him to say, no, but I do understand where you're coming from, you know, but I appreciate you understanding where I'm coming from. Like the more chill you are and the more, because I got to imagine like anyone who reconnects with like an estranged family member, like if you experience with your brother, it's like, I mean, yeah, they're family, but they might not be normal. They might not even be safe, you know? Yeah. It's like, oh mean, yeah, they're family, but they might not be normal. They might not even be safe, you know? It's like, oh, your adopted child was getting over, you're gonna have this crazy girl into our family

and she's, you know, like that, those are legitimate fears, you know? And so the more, like the more empathetic and more understanding and mature that you go about this, it's gonna, like make it hard for them to deny you by how like emotionally mature you are, you know, and patient, and you lead with love and stuff like that.

That, you know, I don't know that, honestly, I hope this is helpful because I'm kind of like, I'm obviously speaking at a turn. No, I think this is helpful because the people in my life who love me, they're like, well, you're the daughter. What do you mean? They should be welcoming you with open arms. This is how I would do it.

It's like, well, it's not just the dad, right? He has an entire family with a white picket fence and a little suburb that they've built and they're happy. And there's a lot of people involved that need to process this information. And there's a lot of fear. There's, you know, right now she's afraid. His wife is afraid.

I totally, yeah, I totally get that, absolutely. So the more you can try to empathize with her, and I wouldn't say, oh, you must feel this, you must feel that. It's more like just acknowledging that like you showing up probably creates a lot of unexpected things. And I'm sorry, I really, cause I don't like, you know, you are a mom,

you're a wife, right? Relate to her as mom to wife. Like I don't even know what I would do if my husband shared this information and I would be reluctant to meet the version of me type of thing. So I totally get it. I really, really do.

Find common ground with her and that's the best way to try to connect. And you have a lot of common ground with her. You know? Yeah. You really do. And, you know, so I would go that direction. Well, I'm going to try that. I'm going to, I'll probably try to call him over the weekend or next week and just kind

of come at him with, you know, graciousness and love and openness and then see if he would be open to me maybe writing a letter. I think that's a good idea. And maybe when you say, hey, would you be open to this? Maybe offer it as not something like, would you be open to me writing this tomorrow? Be like, I think you kinda wanna reset expectations with him because last time you tried to do that,

it was very much like you kinda gave him a timeline, a deadline, you're kinda like, hey, I'm going to need this to give you that. And I would maybe pull back that from that a little, a little bit. Definitely. And just, you know, so maybe you sent him a text message saying, Hey, man, I was just thinking, Hey, man, I don't know how you refer to them. But I was just thinking of you. And I just want to say, again, like maybe text them like, I'm just really grateful that we were able to connect. It really is, it's really meant a lot to me. But maybe we can talk on the phone in the next couple weeks.

And just kind of very, very chill, very open-ended, not like we need to talk. No, me reaching out would be totally normal just to be like, hey, what's up? What are you doing this weekend? That would be very normal for us to. Yeah, but when you do, I would say, send them that message and say,

before you say what's up and can we talk, send them the text, even when you get off the phone today. Send them a message, it's kind of like, I was just thinking and I just want to say, us reconnecting has meant the world to me and this could have gone so many different ways. And I'm just so appreciative of honestly who you are as a person and, you know,

given the whole like, I know we don't know each other very well, but like the little bit I do know about you, like I'm really proud to find out, you know, the man that you are and that you're my dad. And maybe we can talk in a couple weeks. But do you think that, I guess, where my train of thought is going like, yes, I'm an adult, but I am the child in this scenario.

Sometimes it feels like, am I doing all of the work and am I the one trying to build this relationship? Shouldn't he also be messaging me those things? I'm not an expert, so. Sure. But my opinion is that, who cares? Okay. You are, like you said, you're an adult.

Like at this point, this is very much under the do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Do you want to have a relationship with your father? Or do you want to feel happy? Do you want to have a relationship with your father? Or do you want to feel like you have, it's less of a threat to you to have him in your life than it is for him. And not because he isn't open to it, right? Your husband is more like,

oh, I want you to connect with your biological father. Your child doesn't know the fucking difference. You know, your kid's gonna be like, cool, I got two grandpas. It's all gravy, it's all cool. On his end, he's got a three, not an adult, but adultish kid, kids are, yeah, that he would have to sit down and say,

hey, I got some news that is gonna fucking blow your mind. And he's very, must be nervous to tell them. He's got a wife who again, is disrupted, you know. So adult to adult, he's got more reasons to like, be not sure, like it's all gravy for you. It's not all gravy for him, so to speak, if that makes sense. That's true.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, just plain devil's advocate. You know, I don't think there's a right way. Yeah, I don't think there's a right way. And I'm really glad that he, you know, just plain devil's advocate. I don't think there's a right way. I don't think there's a right way. And I'm really glad that he did reach out to you first. Honestly, I was shocked to hear that. He did, but I had to find him. No, I know.

But he also didn't know you existed. He knew a baby existed, but yeah. I get what you're saying. I'm just like, I'm trying to find the positive. No, and I like your advice. I get what you're saying. I'm just like, I'm trying to find the positive. No, and I like your advice. I definitely think I'm going to take that route of just, you know, coming at it with love and just trying to be more patient. Yeah, because I guess my overwhelming theme is it took you this long to find him. You're a young woman. He is, your dad, your biological father is a young man. You know?

Knock on wood, hopefully he has a long, a lot of life left. Right. And you got a lot, hopefully, knock on wood, a lot of years to grow this relationship. So let's just be a little patient. Let's not rock the boat. Let's not do or say anything that could give a false impression of what you're trying to do or this relationship.

You know, let's, you know, there's so much good that can come on the other end and so much positivity that can come on the other end that just a little patience upfront might go a long way. Rather than coming across as a threat or adversarial, again, they don't know you and they're operating out of fear. So think of your, like, again, you're the mom. If there was a threat to your family and as soon as you had your kid,

immediately you wanted to protect your child. You wanted to to your family and as soon as you had your kid, immediately you wanted to protect your child. You wanted to protect your family. So she's coming at this as a protective mother. Absolutely. And so, you know, like she's the key truly. I mean, and I've said that too. I'm like, I don't know how I would tell my 13-year-old daughter this information.

I hope I wouldn't have to have, you know, I don't know what I would tell my 13 year old daughter this information. I hope I wouldn't have to have, I don't know what that would feel like. So if I have just been being patient and I haven't pushed any issues, and this is why I wanted advice on how to kind of move forward in those next steps. Lean into the fact that you and his wife have a lot in common,

because you do. Yeah, that makes me want to cry a little. I think this is a really positive story. And we're just kind of in the middle of it. And there's a lot of good that can come from this. And the more you can empathize with her and make her feel safer and less afraid, the better. Okay.

All right. I like it. Okay, well, please better. Okay. All right. I like it. Okay, well, please keep us updated. Because we are all very invested in this story. Thank you, I really appreciate it. And I'm happy I got to be on the podcast. I've been a day one listener. Well, we appreciate you listening.

Appreciate you calling in even more. This is a really touching story and I really hope it continues to be a good one. Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm very optimistic for you. Thank you. Congrats on Little Ruby. I appreciate it. Thanks so much.

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New episode Sundays. Watch free on CBC gem. How's it going? Hi I'm Mary I'm 23 and I'm scared to drink with my best friend. Okay tell me more. Okay if I get emotional I'm sorry I'll probably start laughing first but my best friend from college who I adore and I honestly can't say enough amazing things about him has a really bad problem with drinking that probably goes back about a year and a half at this point. And during the fall of 2022, we had a series of instances in which like his behavior, like the outlashes, the verbal outlashes, never physical would always kind of fall on me. And I'm not a super confrontational person. So doing what I thought was best, and it was obviously not, I kind of just would push to the side and be like,

can you come down? Whatever. He'd go to sleep and wake up. And the next day it was literally like he wouldn't remember. And the person that I went out with was not my best friend. And it kind of got to a point after like two months of this or maybe a month and a half where one night it was like in front of a group. And he came back to my apartment because he knew something was wrong, even in his like drunken stupor, I guess. And he like came into my room because I left it unlocked, which is normal for us. And he was like, what's wrong with you? You're in a bad mood. And I was like, I don't want to talk to you right now. Can you, can we just talk tomorrow? I don't want to do this. Obviously he didn't

listen to me. And our other friends came in the room too. And I was like, please, please, please, please, please. Is he a roommate? He's not a roommate. We, well, basically I lived in a single and then my three best friends lived, like the three guys lived in the apartment across the hall.

So it might as well be roommates. Gotcha. Like a dorm, like a dormitory? Yeah, student, like an apartment. Yeah. Gotcha, okay. And it just just I kind of just lost my I don't want to curse, but I just kind of lost my marbles and that's some things that I definitely regretted. It wasn't personal, like the attacks he made at me.

But I basically I just screamed at him. I was like, if I wanted to be reminded of all my insecurities and every bad thing that's ever happened to me, I don't need you to take a few shots and remind me. And I started sobbing. And that's just not like, I would never in front of especially a group of people, describe his alcohol use in that way and just be that mean is not even the right word.

It was like, I dug in. And so after that was like the catalyst for a larger conversation about his alcohol use. And then things were great for, I'd say around nine months, really until the end of my senior year of college, which was this past May. He stopped drinking for six months. We had a conversation the following day and he was like,

I'm signing up for therapy. I need to figure out what's wrong with me and I can't keep having my best friend be the like emotional punching bag. Like he said everything that I wanted him to say in that conversation. And again, like for six months, he was the soap, like, I mean, it was great to have a DD, but also like he really handled that all very well. And so I really had, I was like, this has gone away.

I know that's not how substance abuse issues work, but I don't have prior exposure to it. So in my mind, I was like, this is fixed. And that was a naive perspective of me to have. And to be honest, I never really like checked in on him, which I regretted doing. I kind of was like, he's not drinking. He seems happy. I'm happy. And like my whole group seemed very like relieved. And so then this past summer of 2023, you know, like college graduation was like a fun time for all of us to kind of like party a lot and whatever. And I don't really drink. I have my own vice. Let's just say that. And so we do, you know. Oh, OK. Perfect. Well, that's just yeah. Like no judgment. People's whatever you want to do. But yeah, so I'm just like I just need a gummy and a diet coke and I'm a happy person.

Yeah. But he started and he let me know before, but this past like spring and summer, he was like, look, I've gone to therapy and I feel really good. And I think I'm gonna start reintroducing, you know, alcohol, I enjoy drinking. It's something I really like to do. And I just like, he wasn't asking me for permission, but he was just like letting me know prior.

Yeah, which was awesome. And I was like, look, like if you feel good, like obviously you don't need my green light. Like I want you to be happy. Give me the heads up, yeah. Yeah, which was awesome. And I was like, look, if you feel good, obviously you don't need my green light. I want you to be happy. And if that's like, whatever. But bad Brad is back, so to speak. Yes, exactly. And I was like, okay.

I honestly had a very positive mindset about it. I was, I don't want to. Just out of curiosity, do you notice his behavior be different with different types of alcohol that he drinks? Not types of alcohol, but types of people that are around him. Same way.

It seems like the people that he's most comfortable with, this behavior kind of presents itself more, but. I had one of my best friends, still my best friend to this day, sweet man, great father, sweet guy. Not Sweet Boy Justin. Huh? Not Sweet Boy Justin. Not Sweet Boy Justin.

Another one. I've known him since kindergarten, and when he would drink whiskey, shots of whiskey, and there was a time where I was 21 years old, and this is one story, he went to a different college and he was visiting and me and my first girlfriend who had a million breakups were, you know, we were still talking but we were on the outs and he dated, you know, her best friend and like, so we were

all close even though there was a lot, you know, we're around a little bit younger than you but around your age and I was sleeping and my girlfriend, ex technically at the time called me up just hyperventilating just like beside herself. And I was like, what is wrong? And her and her friend like were like fucking with him, you know, calling him up and just like teasing him, like being very playful, but not realizing while they were doing this, he was out on a bender, you know, college bender. And so when he got the message, you

know, bad Brad, so to speak, his name's not Brad, got this message and like called up and like in his own drunken stupor thinking he's being a friend of me, you like called up me like you fucking whore, Nick fucking hates you, never fucking talked to him again, just like said some evil things. we am like I woke up he came back from the bars you know and then our other friend who we all grew up with that they were out together I wasn't and like he had to separate because I got really mad and he he was coming at me because he was like sensitive the next day he wakes up I'm fucking pissed he has no memory no

echo he has no idea what happened. And I told him and he was embarrassed and he apologized to her. It's like, he had no, he like woke up, he's like, hey man, how's it going? And I'm like, you don't remember anything from the night before, do you? He's like, no.

Some people are like that, you know, he'd stop taking shots, it was whiskey. Anytime he'd take shots of whiskey, it would just like, you know, anyways. He stopped doing shots of whiskey. You know,'d like still drinks wine from time to time now He's just like a dad and it's all chill whatever but like yeah Just some people lights go fucking out they become a different person Yeah, we got in a couple like fights over it, and it was always like with you know you got in

One time he came and visited me in Chicago. I lost him like 15 minutes. He came back with a black eye because he picked a fight with some random strangers because he would just turn into this like aggressive guy when he would take shots. Anyways, listen, also question. Why is your best friend not your boyfriend? My best friend likes men, so I'm his type. Oh, okay.

There you go. That makes sense. I've. Yeah, you just, you know. it's a valid question when a lovely lady like yourself has a male best friend, but if he's gay, then he's gay. Great. Yeah. That answers that. So there's no, like, built up like, I love you.

No, no, no. Nothing like that. OK. So I guess where do you like you said you're afraid to drink with him. Like, I guess the obvious answer is, you know, why do you have to drink around him? You know, like, you can still have, like, is alcohol such a big part of his life now that, like, he's always drunk and then you have,

you know, to be with, you know, like, can't you just say, like, listen, I love you, I respect you, but like, listen, and I'm not here to tell you how much you should to say, like, listen, I love you, I respect you, but like, listen, and I'm not here to tell you how much you should drink, but like, when you do, I see a side of you that just makes me feel uncomfortable, unsafe, sad, and so like, I'm just, you know, let's grab lunch, let's get dinner, I'm here for you,

but like, I'm not gonna party with you. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I was thinking I wanted to do. And we don't even live in the same city. So it's not I mean, I not I don't really like to party that much. But it's not even like if I'm going to partake in that activity, he's somebody that I regularly see. But it's just we have these major life events where alcohol is inevitably

inevitably going to be involved, especially this upcoming spring with reunions. And I wrote in my email that my parents have their annual Cinco de Mayo party and they're so generous in letting me invite whoever I want pretty much so long as they can pay the airfare and come in for this event. And he's one of those people and I want him there so badly. But I guess the reason I emailed you was because of this upcoming May 5th thing, but I think it's a catalyst for a larger conversation.

And you know, it's relatively avoidable because he doesn't live in my city, but it's like, whether it's weddings or alumni weekends or other family things, it's just... Well he... Question, he recognized there was a problem back in the day, so that's good. Is he aware that he's, you know, like clearly he has a substance abuse problem. Like my friend who I described, like he was just like his, you know,

his now wife, his then girlfriend, was like you can't do shots. You can't do shots of whiskey. You know, we'd have a couple like, it's like if you got drunk too fast, he just, you know, I can't black out. I've never blacked out in my life. I will throw up, I will puke.

I don't drink that much, but like, before the lights go out, the lights start spinning, and I will puke. I've never, like, my most, like, the five most drunken nights of my life, I remember vividly. Yeah. Him, on the other hand, no, I mean,

he will black the fuck out, you know? It'll be like, he doesn't know if he's on fucking Mars And so if he got drunk, you know, and he he will never throw up He would do like the body will just say give me more give me more give me more So he has to drink at a slower pace because then he could like recognize that he's getting drunk and slow down But if he drank too fast and did too many shots, he wouldn't have a chance to recognize how fucked up he was getting. You know?

Yeah, that's the thing. There's this seemingly like, not that it's even my place to intervene like I'm a therapist, because I'm not one, but there seems to be a lot of behaviors that I noticed prior to when it gets to like the, okay, this person is like not this person anymore.

There's like the impulse of drinking and like the, like, I'm not, like we go out to dinner and no food is ordered, it's just drinks and I'm also stoned so I definitely am eating but that's a separate issue. But it's just this impulse to get to that level as soon as possible but once that level's met, lights are out and I'm like. Now the benefit with my friend that I keep referring to

is that he was always so embarrassed about this alter ego that he had. We would tease him about it, we'd make fun of him, and he was truly humiliated. He really didn't like that. And so that was pretty easy to be like, well if you don't like that part about you, you need to do some about it.

And that do some about it thankfully was just simply just removing shots of whiskey from his drinking repertoire. My question to you is, how does he feel about your feelings on this situation? I mean, we haven't had a, and this is why I feel like it got to this point, not because of me, but we haven't had a conversation

about this since fall of 2022 when I finally screamed at him for lack of better words. Yeah, so you need to stop doing that. You seem like this really nice, sweet person, even like, oh, I don't wanna swear, fuck shit balls, we can swear on the show. You know what I'm saying? You're a little too polite and a little too delicate

for your own good. And I think you clearly have the ability to speak up. And it's just like, if you ever get to a point where you fucking unleash the hounds of hell, you gotta avoid that, you know? Like that's never productive. So when you blow up at someone, pretty sure that means that like you have been

bottling up these emotions, you have been swallowing things you wanna say, you've been looking the other way, you've been avoiding conflict, but you never really avoid it because all it really does is like reach a breaking point where then you end up blowing up and saying a bunch of things that you're like,

oh, I shouldn't have blown up that way. So instead, why don't you just, he is your best friend, and best friends are supposed to be able to have sometimes tough conversations, and he's already acknowledged a problem in the past. Sounds like he's aware of how things, and you simply pointing out that, listen, man, I see it again, and I don't want you to, I'm worried about you simply pointing out that like, listen man, like I see it again and it's,

I don't want you to, I'm worried about you and more than that, like it's, I can't have you here knowing that this person might show up and this person does show up when you drink and if that's hard for him to hear, well, so be it. You know, like you're not, that's better that you bring it up in a empathetic, productive way rather than wait for, you know, because what you don't want to happen

is to ignore your instincts, have them come out, do the thing that you know that you anticipate him doing, and then lose your fucking shit on him again in a way that you're gonna then have feelings of regret and have to apologize, you know. You don't have to apologize, if you were to reach out to him now or whatever and to say, hey, I wanna talk to you about something,

you might have to say some difficult things. But you saying it at this state, you're not gonna say anything hurtful, you're not gonna go out of your way to hurt his feelings. You might say, I mean, you can't help if some of the things you say hurt his feelings, but that's a him problem, not a you problem. The moment you say something that you know

is gonna hurt him and you say it because you wanna cut, because hurt people hurt people and you feel hurt, so you say something to hurt him, then you might have to apologize. But you want to have a productive conversation and you want to say things that you truly feel because you care about him, because you want to help him. And again, if it happens to hurt his feelings, that's something he's going to have to process, but you can still lead with love and say, I'm sorry if what I'm saying is hurting you, but I love you and I just care about you and I want what's best for you.

And I'm saying this because I want you in my life. I care about you. I want to invite you to things, but I worry about how your actions will affect that. And I'm not here to tell you what to do and I'm not here to tell you how to drink, but I am here to tell you to point out that when you do drink, the same problems that happened in the past are here again. And great, he took six months off, but clearly the problem isn't the drinking,

the problem is what happens when he does drink. And the problem is how he uses alcohol, or how he abuses alcohol. Yeah, he should not be drinking alcohol in an empty stomach, fucking one-on-one. Freshmen in college know that shit. And so for him to not go out of his way to make sure that he has a full stomach,

which means that he is trying to get fucked up. Yeah, I can see and sense this. And even as we talk about certain events, of course, even post college, drink, whatever, but it's like I can't wait to get super fucked up, which is if this person, version of him didn't come out, I'd be like, same, I'm gonna be so hot, we're gonna do all these things,

but I'm like, how can you really not wait? Because once you're there, it's not fun. And I'm like, I'm not. He doesn't know. Yeah. It's not fun for you. It's not fun for anyone else. He doesn't even fucking realize.

Yeah, no, I know. And you're not doing him, no one's doing him any favors by being afraid to point out the obvious to him. Yeah, that's also very true. It's kind of staring most people in the face. I mean, not trying to make you feel bad, but right now you're not being the friend that he needs.

Yeah, I know. And I really, he is, like, again, an incredible friend and someone that's not uncomfortable with confrontation, so for some reason the tables were turned. Like, another thing I'm like, I know he would say something to me. Yeah, I don't know, you feel a little, it's like you feel a little guilt

to bring something up to him. It's like, hey, you don't want to hurt him, is my guess, you don't want to hurt his feelings. But did you ever let him know that weed's a great alternative? No one gets, no one turns an asshole off a weed. You know, we tried, they came home to to my hometown because I'm living at home before grad school right now with my family and I was like, do you want to try? And he was very open and it was the best night ever, like really.

And so, I don't really mean that's gonna cure all his problems but I would love if that became a regular part of his whatever. It was great. You know, some people have to go sober. Some people have to recognize they have a bad relationship with alcohol. Life's not fair, you know? It's like he might, there are other ways to find

whatever he thinks he's getting from alcohol. And he needs to explore that. And he needs to, you know, great that he got into therapy. Is he still in therapy? Yes. Okay, great. Well, he needs to maybe that. And he needs to, you know, great that he got into therapy. Is he still in therapy? Yes. Okay, great. Well, he needs to maybe like have a more honest conversation with his therapist about his relationship with alcohol

and is dependent on it. And like, why does he abuse it when he uses it? Some people just like, they can't control themselves. You know, my friend, I keep pointing out, like thankfully he was able to like really limit it. And now as an adult man, like, yeah, he'll have a glass of wine and and it's not a big deal. He'll have a craft beer with his buddies,

but he doesn't get drunk anymore. And he was able to control that. But if he wasn't, he might have to make different decisions. At the end of the day, he didn't wanna be a dad and a husband who occasionally just got fucked up and his wife or kids didn't recognize him, and that he wasn't in control of his own actions. It's a really scary feeling.

Like, he literally, one time, my friend, another crazy story, we were out at the bars. This was like 20 years ago, right? We were at the bars and I look around and I'm like, where is he? Texting him, where'd you go? He's gone for like 45 minutes, like nowhere. Came back and he kind of had like,

he was kind of like, like he saw a ghost and he kind of admitted to me afterwards that he like blacked out, got in his car, we were in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, started to drive to Chicago, got halfway there, kind of like came to, didn't realize what he was doing, turned back around, came back to the bars. Oh my God, a lot of vehicle, that's really scary. Yeah, and so like, and he like had no idea that he was doing it and that's of vehicle, that's really scary. Yeah, and he had no idea that he was doing it.

And that's fucked up, that's crazy. And so it scared him, it scared him that he knew that if he got a certain kind of drunk that he had no control over his choices and actions. And he was making choices and actions that could destroy his life or destroy someone else's life or both. And that's terrifying.

And so he needs to recognize that there's that similarity of like, you might like drinking, but like it gets to a point where you're gonna hurt yourself or someone else. I mean, the least of his concerns is saying something that he's gonna regret, let alone doing something. Because he is not who he is when he's drunk. He becomes a different person.

Yeah. You know, they're like this alter ego. And it's pretty common. And he needs to recognize that. And if that means he has to give up alcohol forever, then so be it. You know, listen, I know that's easier said than done, but he might have to have some tough decisions. But you know, a lot of people out there

have made that choice. And I don't like, yeah, I don't know what the future holds for him in that decision. I know if it got to that point, like he would, but again, and something that I explained to him last time that I like want to say to him again, was like, again, if the person that you became when you were drunk didn't contrast so deeply with the person you were,

and I wouldn't be friends obviously with somebody like that, but it wouldn't like, it cuts so deep because it's like, this is like, like we kind of like always cut so deep because it's like this is like Like we kind of like always will joke and be like, oh my god Do you have does he have like do you I mean? We we gave my our friend or like an alter-eagle name like there's like a lot of friends out there It's like oh like I have another friend not as bad, but we would call him Carl I don't even know where it came from but like oh Carl. Oh, oh

Carl am I talking to so and so or am I talking to Carl? Do like, do you have like an like, does he have like an alter ego name? No, I haven't tried. That's fine. I'm not suggesting you do. But I guess my point is you could say to him, like, listen, I want you to come to this party, but I don't want the other person to come. I can't have the other person come. I can't have the other person come. I can't have that other person meet my parents.

It can't happen. And knowing that you are drinking and using alcohol in the way that you are, I wanna talk to you about that. And lead with love, you're obviously a very kind and empathetic person. You know how to approach this with love. You know how to approach this in a way that you're not coming at him in a way that you're intentionally trying to hurt him.

And so I would, you just got to start there, you know, honestly, there's no better time than the present. Like you don't have to wait. I would just pick up the phone today and have this conversation, FaceTime for sure. Definitely not over text or over the phone and just have the long overweighted conversation of like, Hey, I'm worried. I'm just worried and I love you. And here are some things I'm noticing here

and here are some requests that I have. And I don't know what you have to say about it, but I wanted to talk to you. Yeah, that's a good, cause I just didn't want to make it. Cause last time we had the conversation, it was like, he came to my room, he led it. And from start to finish,

like he did do most of the talking and said, here's what I'm going to do to fix this X, Y, and Z. And so there was no ultimatum to be made because he was like, I'm just giving it up and getting into therapy point blank period. And I was like, okay, I wasn't even gonna ask you to do that but that's incredible for yourself. And then now it's, I just don't wanna,

I mean, he's already in therapy, but again, me initiating the conversation, I just don't wanna ever make him feel like he has to like, again, choose alcohol over, or not alcohol over me, but I don't wanna ever make him feel like he has, like again, choose alcohol over, or not alcohol over me, but I don't know. Or coming off as, because I also really don't drink, it's like, I don't get it. I don't, I mean, I'm drunk.

Why do you, I don't understand. Why, you're overthinking this. Yeah, I guess I'm making, I just don't want him to come off as not pompous, but like, you have a problem and I'm gonna help, I don't know, like superiority? I don't know what the right word is, but. He has a problem. I don't help, I don't know, like superiority? I don't know what the right word is. He has a problem.

I don't know, like it's just not like, you know, again, I keep using my friend as an example, it wasn't like, hey, I'm better than you because I don't do this. It was more like, this is dangerous. Yeah, yeah, that's true. You're saying things to people that scare them. You're putting yourself in scary situations

by getting into a car. Like you're blacking out and forgetting entire pieces of a night, and then when you are this drunk, you're making decisions that aren't the person that I'm friends with, you know? And like that's dangerous, it's scary. You're coming to him as a concerned friend, you know? Yeah, thankfully you have a friend who like, you know,

you blew up finally, you know, when he said and did some things, he think you know, thankfully you have a friend who like, you know, you blew up finally you know when he says and did some things and That affected him and it hurt him and he you know, obviously valid your friendship and so that that was a catalyst. Well Let's not wait till that happens again. Yeah, I know it sometimes I like feel it approaching it again I for so many reasons it wasn't the right way to handle it the first time I think I I didn't know how to handle it, so I didn't handle it. And then it handled itself when my emotions just kind of took control of my actions in some way.

Obviously, it's so different, but I almost felt like for five seconds or 10 seconds, however long it was, I was like, well, that wasn't me either. Your empathy is like causing you not to be the friend he needs right now. You know, you're so afraid of coming off a certain way or making sure you don't like, the other day, like he needs a friend like you to say something, you know? And the good news is he's already made some progress in the past.

You might need another wake up call. I don't know. But you might have to set some hard boundaries. You might, he might, I don't, I mean, outside are here, but if this conversation doesn't go the way you hope, I don't think he should come to this party. Yeah, I know, and that's why I really, it would cause more for them to not,

like I've already, we discussed it so. It would cause maybe a lot more short-term drama for sure, but long run, like it's obvious what needs to be done. This is not, the party, I'm sure it's not like, congratulations on your graduation, this is a very happy time in your life and everyone's celebrating, I get it, and you're gonna have fun either way.

But this party isn't the end all be all. Next year there'll be another Cinco de Mayo, you know what I'm saying? But this is about helping your friend who needs help. And I don't know if uninviting him to this party, how it might affect this party, but who gives a shit? No, I know, I know. It's like, there's always gonna be a reason for me to not

and to procrastinate it. And it's like this party, it's weddings, it's just a million things that are like upcoming and that are even more important, like my own, again, long down the line and I have no idea, but like my own wedding day, of course I want him there. Sure. Or like, do you really want him, does he really,

I mean, does he want to be known as someone who ruins someone's wedding? I mean, and that's best case scenario. Again, like someone who can get this drunk and this disconnected from who they are as a person are capable of doing things that will ruin their life. Like, he could get in a car, you know, are as a person are capable of doing things that will ruin their life. Yeah. Like, he could get in a car, you know, he could get into an altercation with the wrong

person, you know? Like there's a million bad situations that could happen. I mean, think about it. Like, when people get this drunk, some people have no control over who they are and they go out into the wild. Like how unsafe is that to like have no control over who you are, to no control over who they are and they go out into the wild. Like how unsafe is that to like have no control over who you are, to no control over your decisions and yet those decisions you make

you will still be held accountable for. And no one gets to go into court and be like, oh, I was too fucked up. I was, you know. Yeah, no, that's, thank God that's not how the world works. But yeah, I know it's, I think I. So yeah, a party, come on, there'll be another party. Yeah, I'm hoping that like, if this gets,

that's why I was like anxious to talk and also just to have the conversation with him because if it goes extremely well, like. Then yeah, great, but if it doesn't, you're gonna have to make some tough choices. Yeah, no, I know. And I'm also like, I'm more protective over my family in this event than I am, like I would not have a hard time

setting that boundary because it's my family, it's not even about me, it's about my, whatever. I just wouldn't even allow that to be a possibility. I think you reach out to him, you check in, and be like, hey, I wanna talk, I love you, I miss you, I'm concerned, and maybe you see this coming, but like, you know, the same thing that happened when it happened, you know, like it happened, we're back to where we were.

So you made decisions then for the best, and it's like you try drinking again, but we're back to nothing's been improved. All that happened is you're back to that person again. Yeah, it's just frustrating, because I don't know a lot of, I know that he has other friends that he drinks with. And when he will tell me and recount those weekends, oh, I went to the city to visit so and so. And I know so and so not very well. And we had the best time we went out, we did this, we did that.

Obviously, they're not going to tell me if something happened. But I'm like, did it? Am I not triggering? But I'm like, is this certain group that I'm part of the reason why we get to be treated this way? Because I like high school friends or whatever friends I'm like they they don't seem to be dealing with this. And again that maybe that's not something I'm going to bring up in the conversation. Yeah how do you I mean you don't even know maybe he maybe they're just as fucked up as him. Yeah or yeah maybe they don't notice or I don't even know but yeah I know. And I just have one more question so I'm actually going to see this person in person in person whatever I'm going to to see this person in person, in person, whatever.

I'm going to the city they live in next Thursday. And so I was like, and I'm staying with them. So I was like, I don't know. There won't be as much drinking involved then, at least not when I'm aware of. Well, other than the fact that you're staying with them, I would say, yeah, maybe you just wait to have that conversation in person,

unless you feel like you're, can you afford a hotel if you need to? Well, I also have other friends that live in the city. Great, all right, so. It's not, that's not. Yeah, maybe you'll wait to have this conversation in person. Yeah, I think I might. I mean, just because it's so soon,

it's not like I'm putting it off. It's really just one, but okay. I mean, I'm getting the sense this is like, it's one of those things that you psych, like it's not as bad as you're afraid of it's gonna be, like, you know, moving or something. Like you're, that's my hope for you. Because again, this already happened

and it actually went well. Yeah, it did. It went bad, it went, if I could picture how it was gonna go down after everything was said and done, which I obviously wish the prior stuff hadn't happened, everything was really perfect and I know that they're an prior stuff hadn't happened. Everything was really perfect, and I know that they're an incredible person. So it's like, I don't even know.

So you know, lead with all that, and if it doesn't go the way you hoped, you can point out, and like, isn't that concerning that like, you're more resistant to it now? But you have to say something. Yeah, I do. Okay, I think I. You're not gonna be mean, you're not gonna,

this is what a real friend does. Yeah, I know. And I just also keep going on two things that I just, this is gonna happen at some point because if it's not this party or this weekend, it's some other event that's gonna whatever. But also like, I just know if the tables were turned and if for some reason every single time I smoke a joint, I become a raging crazy person, like they would be like, what are you doing? So.

So there you go. My gut tells me you're overthinking it. You're psyching yourself out and you just gotta do it. Yeah, okay. Thank you. All right. Well, please let us know how it goes. Yeah, I'll let you know how it comes.

I'm definitely gonna do it like as soon as I get there, just because we have a whole weekend and I'm not gonna put it off. Right. Yeah, I'll keep you guys updated. I think I'll have to keep it up to date. I think it's gonna go better than you fear. Yeah. All right.

All right, well thank you so much. And also just congrats, you know, you and Natalie on River and everything. Oh, I appreciate it, thanks so much. And congratulations on graduating college and you're going to undergrad, what are you studying? Well, no, I'm going to grad school next fall. What are you studying?

For clinical mental health counseling. So this should be relevant. Yeah, this would be a good practice. Yeah. All right. Well, good luck. All right. All right, take care.

Thank you. All right, bye-bye. All right, thanks for listening. Don't forget to send in those questions at asknick at thevilefiles.com. For all things Ask Nick, texting office hours, mediation. We'll see you back tomorrow for a reality recap, bye.