The Viall Files - E749 GD w/ Laverne Cox + Honeymoon Pt 2, Golden Bachelorette, Baby Reindeer & Sandoval Redemption Attempt

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Starting point is 00:00:18 Seasonal allergies are the worst. And- It is a nightmare. I mean, I've had seasonal allergies. I've never had them like Natalie's had them. And like when you are married to someone or dating someone with seasonal allergies, like you suffer with them because you see how much they are affected by seasonal allergies. It is brutal.

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Starting point is 00:01:05 so you can AstroPro and go today. That's A-S-T-E-P-R-O-allergy.com. It's faster bro, AstroPro and go. Use this directed for relief of nasal congestion, runny nose, sneezing, and itchy nose due to allergies. You're crazy. What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files Honeymoon Edition. This is your host Nick joined by my wife, Natalie on our honeymoon from Puerto Rico.

Starting point is 00:01:49 Puerto Rico. Joined by the household we got in studio, sweet boy Justin, Scooter, Sierra, and from her humble abode and wherever the fuck. Allie. Abode. Martin. And her humble abode. Is it humble?

Starting point is 00:02:04 Did I say that right? No, abode. It's abode. It's not a title. Like it's her humble abode. Is it humble? Did I say that right? No, abode. It's abode. It's not a tile. It gets bold. Abode. What is abode? It's a house.

Starting point is 00:02:12 What's the def- it's a house. Yeah. Okay. Great. Well, we have an amazing episode for you. Nally, I are calling in. We are from Puerto Rico. And I forgot my mics mics which I'm really annoyed

Starting point is 00:02:25 about it but because it's our honeymoon I just asked for the audience's patience and forgiveness as we still on our honeymoon are delivering high quality content so there is that but we did forget our mic so sorry about that anyways what's cracking what's going on household did you guys see the video Kyle Richards trapped in her car because of the mouse? No. No. Can you play it? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:02:48 Leia has it, but this was an ongoing conversation from Reality Recap, when you guys were talking about New York. Cause like, I have a hot take where I think that, like rats of New York are just treated poorly cause us as a society has decided to like, see them as a bad thing. And then like this video of Kyle Richards

Starting point is 00:03:03 being trapped in the car at that mouse that rat It's so cute. It looks cute. And that's what I'm saying. Like we just totally silly. There is a complete difference Between a mouse and a rat. Thank you. Yes. This was Just like squirrels without cute tail. Listen, I had pets rats when I was a kid We had we had them as pet it was because my mom was trying to piss my stepdad off and so she got his rat. His name was Golden. The rat's name was Golden?

Starting point is 00:03:31 No, the ex-husband. Okay. We're like, oh, that makes more sense. There was a white one with red eyes and I remember her name being Lucy. Oh. See? It's cute in theory, but at the same time, there is a very big difference.

Starting point is 00:03:47 And what Kyle Richards was reacting to was maybe one of the cutest mice I've ever seen in my life. And you would think that this was like a king rat from the sewers of New York. You must play us this video. So could Kyle film this? Yes. This is Kyle Richards. Oh, he's on the outside.

Starting point is 00:04:04 Oh my God. It's Ratatouille. Kyle Richards. Aw. Oh, he's on the outside. Oh my God, it's Ratatouille. Well, the mouse, she's reacting like it's on the inside. That's what I'm saying. And the little rat's like smiling, being like, hello. I would take that mouse over a spider any day. It's a pretty cute mouse. I mean.

Starting point is 00:04:21 Look at his little paws. Aw. I do feel like I can't, I wouldn't say I'm like Tarzan friend of the animals. Like I would have, I suppose, if the mouse was inside the car, I might holy shit it kind of thing. But like that was a cute mouse on the outside of the car.

Starting point is 00:04:39 It feels like a strong reaction. At one point she's banging on the glass, trying to get people from outside to help her as if she's trapped in this car. Yes, yes. How did it get on the car? Like, am I dumb? Can those things climb?

Starting point is 00:04:52 Oh my God, yes. They have sticky, Huh? Yeah, they have like sticky paws. Well, can mouse climb? Yeah. I don't know. Have you not seen Cinderella?

Starting point is 00:05:01 They're like sticky. They have like sticky. Do the mice climb in Cinderella? They climb through your walls. Well, I knew they could like eat stuff and survive. No. Like, so like anyways. Like animals do, Justin.

Starting point is 00:05:12 Yeah. I meant like they eat through walls and like they live perfect, like not perfectly, they won't die from eating a wall. You know, they eat and then they survive. So, you know, nature. They're just like you and I. Anyway, cicadas.

Starting point is 00:05:25 Wait, I wanna hear about your honeymoon before we talk about all the discussion. Before we get into our honeymoon, I wanna ask you guys a question. Do you guys know the difference between a cappuccino and a latte? One has milk. No, cappuccino also has milk though.

Starting point is 00:05:39 Oh, then I don't. Cappuccino is a shot of espresso with milk and then a latte is coffee with milk. No. A latte has espresso. No. Well, they both have shots of espresso. I ask this question because my whole life, I feel like I've asked people before, like,

Starting point is 00:05:57 what's the difference between a cappuccino and a latte? I feel like I've gotten different answers. I don't remember what many of those answers were. But over the weekend, I was with our dear friends, Erica and Scott, and we were out to lunch. And Scott ordered a cappuccino. I myself usually am a latte guy. I've been drinking lattes when I don't drink coffee with a little bit of cream.

Starting point is 00:06:18 When I want to go fancy, I'll get myself a latte. And lately, I've been feeling like my lattes were not strong enough, like just too much milk kind of thing. And then I asked my friend Scott, huh, why did you get a cappuccino? He's like, well, I like it stronger and I want less milk. And so for the first time in my existence, and it's taken me 43 years. I believe I've landed on the answer. Now, Allie, maybe I'm sure, I think Allie's currently doing research, I imagine.

Starting point is 00:06:50 I was gonna say, can't trust her, she's dabbling. I believe it's just less milk. It's just like, it's a more concentrated coffee drink with steamed milk, which is right up my alley. And I had like 17 over the weekend in New York. Yeah, Nick has not shut up about a cappuccino. Because this whole time I felt like, how do I get a stronger latte? It just turns out you have to order a cappuccino.

Starting point is 00:07:09 Well, it's just a different taste. You know, there is like not really. Those are different. Like a latte, you drink it. And like to me, it makes you like thirsty and a cappuccino. You taste it and it's like you taste the coffee. You definitely taste more coffee. It's definitely a stronger like it like tastes drier. To me, it's like, oh, this is like the cabernet more coffee. It's definitely a stronger, like. It like tastes drier. To me it's like, oh, this is like the cabernet of coffee.

Starting point is 00:07:28 Meanwhile, a latte is like a Pinot Noir. Oh, interesting. I mean, it's an interesting way of putting it, but I, it's just more, to me it was more like, a latte tastes more like milk, you know, cappuccino tastes like coffee. Wait, so I looked it up. A latte is creamier with espresso and steamed milk

Starting point is 00:07:42 mixed together to create a more subtle taste. Meanwhile, a cappuccino is stronger with equal parts steamed milk, seemed and foamed milk. There it is. So a cappuccino is like equal parts. It's a ratio thing. Yeah, it's a ratio thing. All right. Okay. I never knew this. Listen, we got one at, he got one at breakfast with Eric and Scott when Scott ordered it. And then we left breakfast

Starting point is 00:08:05 and we walked around and shopped and he was like, is that a coffee shop? Should we get a cappuccino? We're like, okay, sure. So we went and got a cappuccino and then we continued to walk around and he was like, I could really go for a cappuccino right now. I mean, he had five in a row. It was insane. Watch your stomach. Lightning. One of my most favorite things to do, and I know the internet, you know, was like trying to shame Nellie and I for this.

Starting point is 00:08:30 When I posted a picture of like holding River and Nellie was shopping, like yeah, I like walking the streets of New York and shopping. So sue me, I'm a consumer. It's more the walking the streets of New York. I just like the energy of the city. I like being out and about. And it's fun to do.

Starting point is 00:08:49 I like popping into coffee shops. So, yeah. We were in New York and we're with our daughter, River. This is how Nally and I met. This is what we did. We met in New York. We had a little sex. Then we walked around the streets of New York.

Starting point is 00:09:02 You had some coffee. You know what I'm saying? And like, you know, and like the internet, you know, not the internet, probably like four people, four assholes. We're just like, shopping is your favorite thing to do. It's like, yeah, yeah, no, it is. Fuck off. It's more of this, like, I like, it's not the buying.

Starting point is 00:09:19 It's the walking around. It's like just being amongst the people. Anyways. But that's also what everyone who goes to New York City is excited to do is walk around and shop. And drink coffee and have sex. Drink coffee, have sex. I wasn't trying to be unique here. It was more like I too like to have sex, drink cappuccinos and shop.

Starting point is 00:09:42 This is me being relatable. This wasn't like me being like, you know what no one's ever done before? Nick was being an influencer. I was being an influencer. Shopping doesn't always mean buying. It could also just be like looking around and touching things and imagining.

Starting point is 00:09:59 Like the day that you have a necklace that I'll never own. I was gonna ask if that happened. Yeah, imagining it on your neck and not actually putting it there. Well, I usually don't pay attention most of the time, especially when I'm walking. And Nellie kept, we would look up and she'd be like, oh, it's David Yehrman.

Starting point is 00:10:15 I know. Oh my God. We're back. We walked past David Yehrman five times. In every burrow. I just wanted to make sure he really did not want to get the necklace. You know, I was hoping there would be like, you know, like we tried it on on Saturday and then on Sunday morning,

Starting point is 00:10:32 he like got up for me, you know, went on his little adventure with River. And I was like, I'm going to wake up to this necklace on the bed. Then I didn't. And then we kept walking past it and I was like, oh, he's going to be like, we should just go back in. And then he did it. And then I was like, oh, he's gonna be like, we should just go back in. And then he did it. And then I was like, maybe if we walk past it again, he'll say that.

Starting point is 00:10:49 And then he did it. And so I just, you know, maybe on, what's the next holiday? Martin Luther King Jr. Day. Memorial day. I think we skipped your birthday. We skipped Christmas. Memorial day.

Starting point is 00:11:01 We skipped a lot of big- It's May. We're in May. Fourth of July. We've in May. Fourth of July. Fourth of July gift. Did he get you a cappuccino at least? Yeah, I was gonna say no. Instead, he's passing all the coffee shops

Starting point is 00:11:12 and he's like, we should get a cappuccino again. We got our sleep, guys. No, but we were. We did go to this cafe and he wanted to get a croissant and I was like, I don't know if we can afford it We had just left the necklace shop and he told me we couldn't afford the necklace and so then we went he's like Should we get a croissant? I was like, I don't know

Starting point is 00:11:32 I don't think we can afford it and there were two in there one had Nutella and one had just regular chocolate I was like, what's the price difference? And he was like, um, and he like went to his computer It was like 50 cents more for the Nutella and I was like, no, we'll do the regular. And Nick was like, I really want the Nutella. I splurged. I made him change the order. Have you ever had a Nutella infused croissant? Highly recommend, highly.

Starting point is 00:11:59 It's just a chocolate croissant, right? I think it's hazelnut. Yeah, it's hazelnut. Also, I love a good chocolate croissant, but what I love even more than a chocolate croissant is a regular croissant with Nutella. This one skipped the whole like spreading step and just kind of infused it in the croissant.

Starting point is 00:12:15 It was pretty good. I will say if I gave up cappuccinos and croissants, I might be able to afford the David Yerba necklace. That's, that's pop, that's true. In three years, potentially. Yeah. I hate when people say like, well, millennials don't have money because they're spending it on coffee.

Starting point is 00:12:32 I'm like, the amount of coffee I would have to buy to make that make sense. Well, $5. Every time. If it makes you happy. Or more. Nick had five cappuccinos in one day. So you do the math.

Starting point is 00:12:44 That's true. It depends how much coffee you're having, I guess. Yeah. And because it's less milk, it's like I get to drink that many more cappuccinos. So math. You're getting more bang for your buck. Actually, you're getting less bang for your buck because you're getting less milk. No, but you're getting more espresso. No. Yeah, you're getting less pain for your buck because you're getting less milk. No, but you're getting more espresso. No. Yeah, you're getting more caffeine, less milk.

Starting point is 00:13:09 I think you're getting the same amount of caffeine, it's just less milk. Okay, I feel like we can go back to the time. Yeah, the same amount of caffeine, less milk. So how's your honeymoon going? Our honeymoon has been great. We got here late last night, super late. And then my mom got here today.

Starting point is 00:13:28 So my mom has had River for the afternoon and we went and laid by the beach and had a lunch and talked about River the whole time. The whole time. We have an outdoor shower in our hotel room behind there. That's sexy. Spicy. With a little bit of privacy, privacy. We did have sex out there.

Starting point is 00:13:49 Okay. Oh. Why would you say that publicly? It's our honeymoon. Can we not be like, we're married, we have a kid, we have sex, internet. I mean, I think people are assuming. You suck that, internet, we have sex.

Starting point is 00:14:01 They had sex in New York, they had sex on their honeymoon in Puerto Rico. Yeah. Aren't you afraid like people can hear you? Like I'm assuming you make noises. Well, I did say to Nick, we must be very, very quiet. So as if people do walk around right here. So we whispered dirty talk.

Starting point is 00:14:16 It was, you dirty, dirty. Oh. Yeah. We're not, listen, we're not Jackson Brittany. We're just here to let you know. A little shout out to Delta Vacations because they saved the day. We gave them some love the other episode because they were truly great. They were truly phenomenal in our honeymoon from hell. And they reached out to us.

Starting point is 00:14:43 They gave us a little something something. We still had to bring mom out, but you know. Yeah. So thank you Delta. But we are here because of Delta. So thank you very much Delta. Thank you Delta. Yeah, that is pretty iconic.

Starting point is 00:14:54 How's the hotel? It's great. Yeah, it's very fancy. Honestly, it all worked out. Sometimes we definitely, first of all, we'd be here, we'd be with you guys right now. We got the honeymoon we planned on and... Gross.

Starting point is 00:15:07 Yeah, I know. I'm like, uh, that felt like a diss. Our last hotel did not have an outdoor shower with privacy. So we would not have any sex. How the fuck would you have sex? Exactly. Instead they'd be having sex here. Now you've got a hot tub, now you've got an outdoor shower. Think of the sexual escapades.

Starting point is 00:15:22 We have a private pool, like right there. There's a little, it's like a warm pool. Yeah. Natalie's mom's like next door though, so it'd have to Westbury even more. Yeah. Even quieter dirty talk. It'd have to be like-

Starting point is 00:15:35 Malving. Just dropping the room. It would have to be sign language. Yeah. We'd have to read lips dirty talk. Nope. It's an O face. No, I don't like that.

Starting point is 00:15:47 It's like asking for the check. Well, it wasn't really for you, Allie. It was like, I wasn't adding. I don't know what's bad. Like, am I supposed to sit here being like, tell me more? Like, I don't know how to keep. Yes. You don't want to hear about my sex life,

Starting point is 00:16:01 minus your boss, but me? This is girl talk. What's going on on the internet? Other than Kyle Richards trapped in a car by a key little mouse. Is she getting shit for that? No, people were just saying that if I was the mouse, I wouldn't jump off the car either.

Starting point is 00:16:19 Okay, that's cute. And they said he wanted an autograph and who knows what. I have a question for you guys. On your flight, did you see anybody in the overhead compartments? Did I see a person in the overhead compartment? Yeah. It's the new form of travel.

Starting point is 00:16:33 Apparently it's a thing to do. There was a woman spotted lying inside an overhead luggage compartment on a Southwest Airlines flight from Albuquerque to Phoenix. The whole flight? Is this like the new planking? Discount ticket? They overbooked the flight. flight from Albuquerque to Phoenix. The whole flight? Is this like the new planking? Yeah. Discount ticket? They overbooked the flight?

Starting point is 00:16:50 No. She's just chilling. How did she get up there? Justin was like, I don't think this is real. There's no way. Like that's not safe, right? Like if they care about my laptop being on my lap, I'm sure they're not having a person in the overhead.

Starting point is 00:17:04 No, how would she have gotten up there without anyone being like, ma'am, can you get down? Like she would have had to climb on top of a chair. Yep. She would have like, apparently people were just passing by and like not even. I mean, it is Southwest. Okay. Apparently Southwest is looking into it. Yeah. Southwest the airline where you can pick your own seat. There's no assigned seats. It's kind of a free for all. So she took that very seriously. She took it literally. No, I can pick my own seat. I can't handle that.

Starting point is 00:17:28 Flight attendants are the ones going around like closing them for the final time. There's no way that they like to shut it on her. No, Delta would never allow that. No. Do you guys have status? Would you have status in any airline? I'm part of, I'm a Delta frequent flyer. Same.

Starting point is 00:17:43 I am a Southwest girly. Like that's what everybody in Sacramento uses, is Southwest. I'll fly Southwest. They, you know, they have their purpose, but like, yeah, Delta is the only one I've ever committed. I will say the first time I flew something outside of Southwest, I was like, wait, y'all can choose seats?

Starting point is 00:18:01 Like it eliminated all of the stress. I was like, oh my God. See, that's the thing for me with Southwest is like, I want to know I'm sitting on the aisle. OK, like I can't sit in the middle or the window. I can't do it. So wouldn't you rather be able to pick your seat than? No, I'm I'm going to buy it beforehand. Exactly. Make sure I'm on an aisle.

Starting point is 00:18:18 Otherwise, I'm going to be stressed the whole time and like pushing people aside. Like I'm getting on this plane first. Yeah, but I have a question because my parents, they fly together they both take an aisle. Wouldn't you just want to sit next to each other but they go stranger my mom aisle my dad stranger wouldn't she just sit in the two seats next to each other? Wait wait what they would huh? That's the thing. If it was a middle, I would understand. Yeah. Even that's a little crazy, but yes, I would understand. Because it's the same leg room. They're in first class and they always sit in the aisles. I couldn't imagine hating a window seat that much.

Starting point is 00:18:55 I love the window seat. I love the window seat. I can't with the window seat because I always have to pee. I always have to pee. You know what I'm thinking of? There's so many times where like, well, literally, on our flight to our honeymoon, flying first class, of course. Duh.

Starting point is 00:19:10 Thank you, Delta. And we both had windows. We booked at last minute, so we were 4A and 5A. And so graciously, Natalie and I just sat in the seats together. We have a baby, the lady who had, you know, the seat I was sitting in. I was like, do you mind so I can sit next to my wife and my baby. She was very, you know, it's a first class seat.

Starting point is 00:19:35 No problem. She sat there. But I can imagine your parents, Allie, another couple, you know, and they're like, hey, can I sit next to my wife? Like, no, I'd rather not sit next to mine. I won't move because we specifically got these aisle seats. Like, and the thing is, like, Lea, I can understand your perspective of, like, oh, asking someone to pee, but I'm like, that's your spouse.

Starting point is 00:19:57 Yeah. And there's plenty of room to just walk around them. They don't even have to stand up. OK, fine. That's fair. What's everybody's thoughts on like, asking people to switch, or if you've ever been asked to switch for like, a worse seat, but then there's like,

Starting point is 00:20:12 it's like a mom and her daughter. Anything for a family. Yeah. If it's like business partners, like coworkers, I'm not switching, you know? But if it's a family. But if it's like, yeah, if it's partners, or like family members, sure. Yeah, I'll be pissed, but I'll do it. Anytime, I also, especially if it's like part, yeah, if it's partners or like family members.

Starting point is 00:20:25 Sure. Yeah, I'll be. I'll do it. Also, especially if it wasn't first name, if it's first class, like you get drinks. But if I ever ask someone to move, I always offer to buy their drinks the entire flight. This happened to me actually on the flight to Savannah. There was a man who, I guess, bought both of his first class seats together and he was sitting in front of us and he offered his seat to a wife and husband and saying like hey we have an extra seat if your wife wants to sit up front

Starting point is 00:20:55 I guess there's something that happens where like they won't allow the baby to sit with the father alone but the baby has to stay with the mother. What? Yeah, and so the husband kept coming up and sitting in the first class seat and then would just like go back after a while. But like, if Natalie was offered to sit first class and you were in business, let's say,

Starting point is 00:21:18 would you rather Natalie sit in the front, in first class or would you rather her stay with you? It was happened once. I actually gave Natalie at first my first class ticket and I sat back and then some guy hit on her. Hey mama. So never again. You're nicer than Tom Schwartz.

Starting point is 00:21:34 Apparently. I mean, Sierra just showed us a video. Yeah. Where Tom Schwartz got the first class upgrade and Katie was like walked by and she was like, sorry, they just gave me an upgrade. And she was like, switch me. And he was like, I don't care about sitting in first class, but just go back there.

Starting point is 00:21:51 And that's when the rage tech started when she was in the back, cause her whole thing was, I wanted us to sit together and enjoy the flight, but he took the upgrade and stayed in first class. Were they married then? Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:22:04 See, this is how I feel with a TSA pre-check or what's the other one? The one where you stand your eye. You gotta have both. Yeah, so Danny has it and I don't and he leaves me every single time. As he should. Well, it's so easy to get TSA pre-check.

Starting point is 00:22:17 Literally just go to any Walgreens and pay $75. It's so easy that too many people have it. Is he also global entry? He travels a lot. You need to get TSA pre-checked. I know. Do you have to empty your bag and TSA pre-check? You don't have to take your shoes off.

Starting point is 00:22:32 No, it's absolutely game changing. You don't have to take off your shoes. You don't have to get scanned. You just walk through a metal detector. Also it's like 85 bucks for five years and then you can just renew it every five years. At Walgreens? I had to go to the airport and then I didn't bring any documentation, then I cried my way out of it, so apologies government.

Starting point is 00:22:49 Oh, I'm going after this. I really thought you guys were all gonna take my side there, now I feel like an idiot. No, Lea, you need to get it. This is you. You need to make sure you get it. Did you hear about the Michigan mom that assumed a false identity,

Starting point is 00:23:01 and for almost two years harassed her own daughter and her daughter's boyfriend. Yes, I saw that. Natalie showed me that. Isn't that- Is she arrested? It doesn't say what her charge exactly was, but there is a mugshot.

Starting point is 00:23:13 But yeah, she claimed a false identity and then Lifetime made a movie about it. Like what was her issue with her daughter? This is horrible. Is this the same thing as the reindeer thing that everybody's talking about? Baby reindeer? Baby reindeer?

Starting point is 00:23:24 Oh. Different, but is anybody watching baby reindeer? Because I am. We are watching baby reindeer. Who else is watching baby reindeer? I'm watching it. I'm like, I got up to an episode that I can't get past. Like, I'm just, it needs to sit with me for a second. And then I can move on. It's just, yeah, I'm like, we were like on episode five. I have to take breaks. It's a little heavy.

Starting point is 00:23:43 I'm on a break. And like, it's, for those of you who aren't watching it's like based off of a Nada like based on a true story. It's they it's allegedly a true story It's the same act the actor that plays the lead it this happened to him. He's playing himself He's writing about his life I don't know how you felt Leah, but like I was like even in the first episode I was like what the fuck is wrong with this guy? Like if this the only the biggest criticism I have of his story

Starting point is 00:24:11 And I don't know if you saw like the the woman the woman who alleged is his alleged stalker She came forward and like Pierce Morgan interviewed her. I saw that yeah, but uh, it's more like she had so many red flags But he just kept saying I just, I kept, you know, he keeps putting up with all this bullshit. Like, I mean, if this guy's story is true, he is very toxic. He's like very, he's problematic. He has a lot of, I mean,

Starting point is 00:24:34 I don't want to spoil for anybody who hasn't watched, but there's an episode that kind of explains his backstory and it makes it make more sense. Are you talking about the drug thing and the- Yes. Yes, and that's disturbing, but that doesn't necessarily explain everything, does it? I mean, I think that it's a really good show.

Starting point is 00:24:56 I think it shot beautifully. I think it's very different and unique than anything I've ever seen and I am enjoying it. And I think it's a great show. It's definitely more graphic than anything I've ever seen and I am enjoying it and I think it's a great show. It's definitely more graphic than anything I've ever seen and it's shot in a way that makes me like genuinely feel, like I don't know how I feel after I watch it. And that's why I like-

Starting point is 00:25:15 It makes you uncomfortable. Yeah, that's why I'm like, I'm on a break right now, I will continue, but I'm just sitting in my feelings for a minute. Did you watch the Piers Morgan interview? I saw clips of it and I saw that this woman who is her name also, like is it the same name? No, they changed the name. Okay, so this woman she's saying that some of the texts are different.

Starting point is 00:25:38 She said that the curtain line was a little... Yeah, she's saying that like there's she was like there's three things that are true in this but like everything else he's just absolutely made up and As the interview goes on Pierce Morgan is like, you know, is this true? What about this? And she's like, okay. Yes, that is true. And like she continues to like reveal that more than three things are true She's like well, no, I sent, I tweeted him 18 times and I only sent him 474 emails and not 17,000 or whatever it actually was.

Starting point is 00:26:12 So it's actually pretty bizarre. Nick had someone show up to our door one time claiming that they had been in a relationship. Have you ever had a stalker guys? No, that's my biggest fear. I've had one, yes. You've had a stalker? You've had one?

Starting point is 00:26:24 It's a story for a different time, but yeah. Almost how to get a restraining order. So it's definitely scary when people reach out to you and then reach out to your friends to try to get in contact with you. Nick, wait, tell us your story. Well, I didn't really have a stalker. It was more, unfortunately,

Starting point is 00:26:40 I've had people pretend to be me. Toughish. And every once in a while, I'll get DMed by someone saying someone's trying to pretend to be you and there's not much I can say other than like, cause it's like, you know, like they'll, they'll create like fake Instagram and it will be like Nick dot vile dot, you know, or Nick vile with three L's at the end, you know, and it's like clearly not me, it's not verified or anything like that. And like, if you take two seconds, it's not me. But you know, people can be gullible and are looking for connection. And like, there's like a talk

Starting point is 00:27:15 track they have, they'll like claim to be like, this is my personal account. You know, everything else on that is business people, you know'll make these I've heard this from from people who showed up at my door um and uh so I've received letters you know of people try like uh who have like tracked me down and they're trying to like claim that like hey it's like they it's like they know it's not me but they like they they think they they think they've been told they're talking to me. There's always this reason why I've never DM'd them for my actual Instagram or why they've never seen me in person or we haven't met up. And there's always these elaborate stories.

Starting point is 00:27:57 If you know anyone who's ever been catfished, they're all the same stories. And it was like 7 a.m. This was a while back. It was like when Jeff was just a pup. And I got a doorbell ring. I was like, oh, now he was sleeping. And I opened the door. And like, I knew immediately. It's like I knew like there is this, and it was like a very normal looking woman, probably in her 30s ish from Toronto, California. Meanwhile, keep in mind, this is going on when the pandemic still kind of happening.

Starting point is 00:28:36 It's like the tail end. So like she came from Toronto and had like quarantine in her hotel room for a few days and then showed up at 7 a.m. I'm assuming, presuming, that she knew that that would be increased the chance that I would be home. And so she had this glazed look in her eye,

Starting point is 00:28:53 and I kind of closed the door immediately because I was like, what is going on? Because she was like, Nick? It was really freaky. It took me a few seconds to realize that this woman was kind of like... I realized I wasn't in danger, that she was just kind of distraught and it was like clearly her last attempt at... It's like she knew. It's like she was kind of expecting...

Starting point is 00:29:19 This was her moment to prove to either herself that it wasn't really me talking to it. She didn't want to believe it and it was pretty fucked up and pretty messed up. You know, she kept saying to me, she's like, I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. And I, you know, I try and at that point, I'm like putting my ass neck hat on and I'm trying to like empathize with her because I really felt bad. And I said, I assume you're not crazy, but you need to acknowledge what you're doing right now is. And that's like a light bulb seemed to go on. And you know, because she was like, I've said money to you.

Starting point is 00:29:54 I'm like, again, you didn't send money to me. You have to stop saying me because she's like, we've talked for so long. Like we haven't. It's not me who you think you're talking to. It was pretty freaky. But I think she finally realized it wasn't me. But it was a scary situation. So it wasn't really a stalker. It was more of a catfish kind of facing her presumed love interest. But you know, it's freaky. A woman shows up at your door thinking that she has been talking to you for years. So when she was talking to whoever she was talking to,

Starting point is 00:30:29 she's imagining me and imagining my voice. And I assume they shared intimate conversations and it's a really freaky thing to be talking to someone who looks at you like they know you and you've never seen them before, it's very, very scary. If she is listening to this. I hope you're well.

Starting point is 00:30:51 I hope you're well. I hope you're well. It was a long time ago. I didn't feel totally comfortable telling the story at first, but. She was like, your relationship with Natalie is like all for social media. You told me that it's just for business.

Starting point is 00:31:03 It's not real. And then I'm like, I'm literally laying in bed, like watching this conversation on my phone, like through our camera. And then I was like, the fuck? So then I like get out of bed and I was like, excuse me? He's like, who?

Starting point is 00:31:17 Oh my God. Yeah. Anyways, but like back to the whole baby rainer, what's so frustrating is like even that wasn't even a real stalker situation. And Justin, I don't know what you you experienced but it sounds like it was a little scary and not something you necessarily love talking about even the story I just talked about like it's been a couple years ago it's a vulnerable thing like someone showing up

Starting point is 00:31:36 at your door and here is this like Richard Gad is it Richard Gad is his name you know like his story about being stalked, he seemed to embrace for so long. It just it has these weird elements that and again, I know there's a backstory of why he got all fucked up and all, but it was it's very frustrating to watch. But it is a it's a very entertaining show. But I don't know. I definitely think he is he's mostly telling the truth because yeah The lady on the Pierce Morgan interview She didn't have to come forward. No, you know, she was like well people found me online

Starting point is 00:32:15 It's like I'm sure it's like I'm sure six people on reddit, you know It's just like the deep internet realized who she was. And so what did she decide to do? She decided to go on this massive, worldwide view show and say, no, that's me. In case you were wondering, this is the person he's talking about. It took him one Google search to figure out that she had been arrested before for stalking.

Starting point is 00:32:40 So she denied that. She says that you, that's not true. Well, if you search her real name. Fiona Harvey, can I say that? I mean, she denied that. She says that you, that's not true. So if you search her real name. Fiona Harvey. Can I say that? I mean, she added herself. I was like, she added herself, but her tweets are still active.

Starting point is 00:32:51 So you can see the tweets that she, where she was just at Mr. Richard Gad. And there's even the curtains one still up there. My curtains need hung badly. It's from September 23rd, 2014. Doesn't she know the first thing you do when you get famous is delete your old tweets? That's what, right.

Starting point is 00:33:06 Right, okay. Literally. No, I mean, that is a reality. If you have any type of public life and you haven't gone back and looked at your internet behavior, you know, because something you might've accidentally done could be interpreted as something

Starting point is 00:33:19 completely different these days, or like, you know, kids back in the day used to, like, for whatever reason, this was like way after my time, but would tweet song lyrics You know why I don't know but they did and some of those song lyrics had inappropriate language for the people tweeting. Yeah. Yeah But yes wait, so so Leia you're telling me the her actual name She so she was arrested because in the interview she vehemently denied. I'm just going based off. I'm just going based off what we saw on the show. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah. OK.

Starting point is 00:33:49 Which I thought was all true. Yeah. Well, in other news, we've got we've got some breaking news. I was going to say you escaped the US in time because the cicadas are coming. Did you guys speak about the cicadas? What about you guys keep saying cicadas? The cicadas there. So for the first time in 200 and some years, every 220 years, there are two different breeds of cicadas coming out at the same time.

Starting point is 00:34:13 So there's going to be over a trillion cicadas booming at the same time. And they're suggesting that homeowners get ear protection and cover their pools. This is happening in the Midwest and Southern US states. And they have the audacity to name it a super bloom, like it's a beautiful thing. I actually saw Lauren Lane post on her Instagram story a bunch of cicadas in her backyard. This is so gross. It's like a sci-fi movie that they're all just like erupting from the ground and then eventually just going to be all over the sky and all over houses.

Starting point is 00:34:47 They're very loud. And do they bite? Are they that loud though? They don't bite. They're so loud. Are there any religious groups claiming that this is the end of the world? Yep. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:34:57 There's like TikTok theories that when we were warned about this happening in advance, they were like, it's the next coming. It's a plague. It's the rapture. Yep. Well, I was like, according to the Bible, it's locust. I'm pretty sure. So I'm like, I don't know. Locust. Cicadas, locust, you know, potato, potato. Locust is all over the Bible. That was one of the plagues.

Starting point is 00:35:13 Yeah. Cicadas do represent prosperity and good luck in some Asian cultures. So it's a good time to be alive. Yeah. Breaking news, Golden Bachelorette has been named. Oh. Yep. First off, what are yourorette has been named. Oh! Yep. First off, what are your guys' predictions? Who do you think it is?

Starting point is 00:35:30 Leslie. Do you think it's Leslie? What was the other woman's name? I want it to be April. Faith? April. No, not April. Who is Faith? Faith.

Starting point is 00:35:37 No, who is the blonde? You're getting warmer. Who is the blonde that was like so... The mom who left to go help her daughter? Ding ding ding. Yes. Joan? It's Joan.

Starting point is 00:35:49 That's a good choice. Love. That is so good. According to People Magazine, ABC revealed a new lead at the Disney Upfront's presentation in New York City on Tuesday, May 14th. Okay. Well, congratulations, Joan. I wonder when that will air.

Starting point is 00:36:03 May she be a more authentic lead than Gary? Which I don't feel like is going to be hard. I bet Joan would sign a prenup, no problem. I think she's going to be great. I think she had a really great story. Yeah, I think she's going to be. It's a great it's a great choice. I'm happy for her. I'm excited to watch.

Starting point is 00:36:18 I hope I hope the show is able to find some high quality men. I think that's going to be their biggest challenge. But let's hope. And have they announced when this season might air or film? Says Golden Bachelorette premieres this fall on ABC. It's coming up. It's exciting. Has Tom Sandoval saved a baby yet?

Starting point is 00:36:38 I feel like that's what Tom Sandoval is trying to do right now. Has he saved a baby? I feel like Tom Sandoval is like on like on every street corner he can be and just hoping that he can like save someone's life. Well there was that whole thing at the apparently there are two different versions. I'm watching the live version of Vanderpump but on Peacock there are extended scenes and stuff that I'm just missing out on. We watched the extended scene. Yeah so the extended scene has more of like the drunk guy that like, tried to like sit with the group and then like threw the glass.

Starting point is 00:37:11 Leia's version didn't have as much of that. It didn't have any of it. So people are now speculating that this guy was seen in photos with a lot of Tom's friends at the event. So he was in photos with Billy, Kyle Chang. Yeah, he had Joe's jacket on. So do you think Tom tried to stage his own likes? I mean, I kind of believe it. Tom was rushing it in that scene.

Starting point is 00:37:30 We didn't talk about it in reality recap, but he was just like, let me let me help. Like, I honestly feel like Tom is like trying to figure out, oh, you can save a baby. Tom is setting houses on fire just to put them out. Literally. Honestly, he probably ripped Nellie's passport. You know what? Whenever he came on. Honestly, he probably ripped Nellie's passport. You know what?

Starting point is 00:37:45 Whenever he came on the show, he definitely did. And he said, dude, and then ripped my passport. Did he then contact Delta for you? Yeah, no, I'm kidding. He actually did text you that. He's like, you know, Delta. He's like, anything I can do to help, man. Just like, let me know if I can save the day.

Starting point is 00:38:04 Anyways, anything else before we get to love a simple life is getting a reboot. A lot of people are raving about that. What is that show? I'm sorry. Nicole and Paris Hilton. Oh, Paris. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Are they going to show Paris Hilton how to use a car seat? Just kidding. Oh, my God. Wait, can we talk about this for a second? I'm not for baby shamers, but like what it did. No, me neither.

Starting point is 00:38:28 People are upset with Paris Hilton because she posted a photo. It's a video. Okay, she posted a video of. Phoenix and London on Mother's Day. Yeah, so Paris Hilton posted a video of her children in the back seat of her car on Mother's Day and the car seats are facing,

Starting point is 00:38:44 like toward the front of the car. And so, and the seat belts are on. So I think everybody's coming out and saying, the car seats are facing the wrong direction. And also why is there a seat belt when you have the harness already there? Yeah, because the seat belt is supposed to go through the seat itself.

Starting point is 00:39:01 Yeah. So what has she said? Because I also- Were they driving? I have the same question. No, I- Also, it was like a sprinter van situation. It wasn't a normal car.

Starting point is 00:39:08 In my opinion, I'm like, she for sure just flipped them around to take the video. Yeah, that's it. What's she driving is the first question. No. Was this car actually in motion? But also you don't just like flip around a car seat. Like they're not very easy to just like flip around.

Starting point is 00:39:23 Like- No, I mean, I agree with you. You would have to move the, like. But maybe she's just not thinking about like the critics and just taking the content. Like if she wasn't driving, then we can't assume that that's how she drove. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:39:36 I mean, like obviously with us just having River, you know, like we are aware of how the internet is and things like that, but like not everything is as it seems. Context is missed in videos and pictures, and we're just not interested in people's opinions because the people are just unsolicited, be like, oh, by the way, in case you do X, Y, or Z, just so you know, you shouldn't do this.

Starting point is 00:39:57 It's like, oh, fuck off. So I like to think that Paris Hilton is a lovely mom, and her kids are in great hands and we should shut the fuck up when it comes to how she wants to raise her kids. As long as her kids are safe, which I assume they are. Obviously because I'm pregnant, I have a lot of like mom content

Starting point is 00:40:16 and like pregnancy content all over my TikTok and Instagram. And then when people just share their opinions, oh no, you're doing it wrong. Oh no, it's like everybody is doing their best. You know how, it's just like, you know how on Ask Nick we get a lot of parent questions, you know, and like every once in a while, like I'll say something, especially when it comes to me, like suggesting that like we should be more appreciative of our parents.

Starting point is 00:40:39 And like there's a certain group of people who listen, who just like, do not want to hear any grades for their parents. And like, I get it. like some parents are suck and they're bad and they don't deserve your forgiveness or grace. On the other hand, then there's just a lot of, then there's a lot of people in the middle. And I just always, it's a kind of laugh because I think to my, and like, you know, we're going to do our best to raise her ever. You know what I'm saying? We're going to love her and we're going to do, we're going to read all the books and

Starting point is 00:41:00 we're going to try not to do things our parents did and do more, do less, whatever. And there's just going to be something we get wrong. There's going to be something that pisses her off about how we raised her. You know what I'm saying? For all the parents back in the day who didn't give their kids enough hugs, all the millennial parents who are all in the whole gentle parenting, and I'm not here to critique that at all. I'm just simply saying that how do how do you know that your kids, their kids in the future aren't gonna grow up and be like,

Starting point is 00:41:28 why didn't you push me more? Why didn't you challenge me more? Why didn't you do X, Y, or Z? Our kids are always gonna have something to complain about. It's just like, there's always gonna be something. It's like for all the parents now who be like, I'm gonna do it better and I'm gonna do it right. And I'm sure you will.

Starting point is 00:41:43 And I'm sure you'll be great parents. And I'm sure you're gonna do your best. But like chances are, your kids are gonna have something to complain about. Which is always kind of my point when I think about like, when we were complaining about our parents. Like they're probably doing, they probably did their best.

Starting point is 00:41:55 And they probably were trying to do better than their parents did. It's just really fucking hard. You know? It's so, all right. I'm done with my parenting, defending all parents out there No, we could be the daughter of the michigan mother who was harassing her own daughter

Starting point is 00:42:10 So yeah, at least we're not bullying our kids online. Yeah, there you go. Yeah bullying is wrong Especially when it's your child That's the thesis statement. All right. Well, I think it's time to get to lavern cox I know I know there's that uh there's that pastor who allegedly did it, did and killed his wife. That story is still ongoing. I think he's now being invested by the FBI. He's still re, he just seems like a really scummy guy,

Starting point is 00:42:34 but I think I'm kind of fine with that case. There's not really no new updates. There's nothing really to dive into about it now, but just know that I am paying attention. If you are listening and paying attention to this case too, I just, you know, all those pastors in their true religion jeans, man, I, they're, they're nefarious. We have a great episode with Laverne Cox. She was gracious enough to sit with us in New York. Nellie and I had the pleasure of interviewing with her. She's a very generous guest. She just got out of her relationships.

Starting point is 00:43:02 She talks a lot about that. She also is very vulnerable when it comes to talking about some of her childhood trauma and abuse, trigger warding. There is some sensitive content that we do talk about, but it's very inspiring. And obviously, Nellie and Laverne have a moment, but it was a really beautiful episode. She's a beautiful person and we really appreciate her taking the time. No, I would agree. I think she created just such a safe space where I felt comfortable enough to open up and I feel like a lot of people listening will feel like they're not alone. All right, well, we're gonna go back to our honeymoon. We love you guys all. Thanks for listening. We're gonna go back to having sex in our privacy shower. Yeah. Sorry, we didn't ring the mics. We will be back next week. Oh, by the way, reality recap,

Starting point is 00:43:48 we're going to start watching Real Housewives of New Jersey. So buckle up. We're going to be talking about that. Super excited about that. What else are we getting into? We got the Fander Pump reunion part one, which I know many of you have already watched. I haven't watched yet. We'll be talking about that in reality recap. Plus we got Summer House in the Valley and We'll be kicking things off with recapping Real Housewives of New Jersey That's gonna be this is gonna be a messy season. I'm super excited. Super excited All right. Well, it's time for Liver and Cocks Listen if you're gonna travel with your baby or not travel with your baby you need need to get the Dreamland Baby Sleep Sack. It is incredible.

Starting point is 00:44:27 The Dreamland Sleep Sack is amazing for your child. Like River loves it, it's her favorite thing. We use it literally every night. It's like the soothing sleep sack that you put it, you put your little cute baby in and she just wants to go to sleep. I don't know what to say, I love it, so great. Dreamland Baby is a weighted sleep sack that has weights from shoulders to the toes

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Starting point is 00:45:18 And it's super easy to clean because sometimes she spits on it, you know, like because babies will baby. And no problem, it's great. So if you have a baby, you have to give them the Dreamland Baby Sleep Sack. We can't say enough of great things about it. Go to dreamlandbabyco.com and enter our code

Starting point is 00:45:33 V-I-A-L-L at checkout to receive 20% off site wide, plus free shipping. This offer is for new and existing customers. Again, that's dreamlandbabyco.com and enter our code V-I-A-L-L at checkout to receive 20% off site-wide. Wayfair is awesome. If you need anything furniture-wise, chances are Wayfair has you covered.

Starting point is 00:45:58 It's like the the Waverhood, you know, everyone lives in your neighborhood, Wayfair has it all. Our entire office was built by Wayfair. Our desks, our chairs, it's amazing what you can find at Wayfair. It's truly incredible. They have so many different styles, so whether your style is more Scandi, or modern, or bohemian, or rustic, or whatever your style is, they have everything to cater to that. We, like Nick just said, we did do the entire offices in Wayfair.

Starting point is 00:46:29 It's super easy. It's very, very affordable. And everything is really cute. It's good quality. From like curtains to desks to office chairs to couches to dining sets, to bedroom sets, they cover everything under the sun and more when it comes to your furniture needs.

Starting point is 00:46:44 Wayfair is the go-to destination for everything home, no matter your style or budget. There's a Weberhood in every zip code, brought to life by everyone who makes their home truly their own with Wayfair. Wayfair makes it easy with fast and free shipping even on the big stuff. They'll even help you set it up. Every style is welcome in the waverhood. Visit wayfair.com or get the wayfair mobile app. That's wa y f a i r.com wayfair. Every style, every home. Laverne, welcome to the Vile Files. Thank you for having me. We are so excited. I've watched before but it feels like in person like is this like your on camera sexy thing? I know your

Starting point is 00:47:24 wife is here. Did she like turn on like an on camera? It feels like in person, is this your on-camera sexy thing? I know your wife is here. Does he turn on into an on-camera sexy thing? It's like a sales associate voice. I don't know if you've ever worked sales, but it's always your normal. Exactly, you turn it up a little bit. We're selling ourselves. So he gives that love me.

Starting point is 00:47:43 It's ultimately to be a star, you want, this is a heterosexist context, of course, but you want men to wanna be you and women to want to have sex with you. Can we curse here? Yes, of course. Men, women wanna fuck you and men wanna be you. So are you consciously aware of that

Starting point is 00:47:59 or do you just slip into like the smoldering? I think I just slip in. You slip in? Yeah. I like a man who slips just slip in. You slip in. I like a man who slips in. As do I. Woo! Well, you are married now.

Starting point is 00:48:13 I did have a baby. And there's a baby, though. There was some slipping going on. Uh. Wait, so you've watched the Vile Vals. I try to do some research before I come onto a platform. I don't just show up places, but not knowing where I'm going,

Starting point is 00:48:32 that could be really dangerous. That is smart. That's true, but most people aren't as prepared. I, an actor prepares and Laverne Cox prepares, and if there is a secret to my success, it is that I prepare. Well, you are obviously an icon, a star, an actor, a singer, multi-talented.

Starting point is 00:48:51 What, if you had like five keys to like how to be Laverne Cox or how to just be a star in entertainment, what other than preparation? Love, love and passion. People have often asked me, when I've done speaking engagements, and they're like, you're so confident, how do I get more confident?

Starting point is 00:49:11 And I've never been confident, but I've always been passionate. For the many, many years I was a struggling actor here in New York, without a prayer, it seemed, of making a breakthrough. without a prayer, it seemed, of making a breakthrough. I love acting and I love the process of building a character, of studying, of getting better even when it's hard

Starting point is 00:49:35 and it's usually hard. I love study. I love study. I study opera. I study acting. I'm obsessed with fashion history. I'm an intersectional feminist, I am an intersectional feminist, I am constantly learning,

Starting point is 00:49:49 I'm also now obsessed with like, you know, therapy and healing, and there's just, that's a well that's like endless. So I love learning, and I'm really passionate about more information. And ultimately, it's about love and it is about authentic power, what Gary Zukov calls authentic power via Oprah. Oprah says via Gary Zukov that authentic power is when our personality, who we are in the

Starting point is 00:50:19 world comes to serve the energy of our soul. That we, and for me it feels like an alignment with an energy with a power, the force that's greater than me. And so there's a service piece, right? So then it's purpose, it's service as well. So there's fun, but then hopefully there's an element of service.

Starting point is 00:50:40 And I think the truth is when the service piece comes in, that's when the universe really starts to conspire because it's bigger than you. It's never, I think the secret is that it can't be about you. It has to be about being of service and aligning yourself with the energy of the universe, the energy of your soul, and a sense of purpose that is bigger than you. Wow, that's powerful.

Starting point is 00:51:03 Have you always been that enlightened or grounded or when? No. Okay, I know that was probably an obvious answer, I suppose. But at what point in your life did you kind of discover this kind of great sense of like what the world is or this inner peace or have you always had some kind of, you know, I know that you start your day writing down five things you're grateful for.

Starting point is 00:51:28 Just that in itself, I'm curious what did you wake up in? I mean, that helps. I mean, so much of it's lately, it's been about the people in my life. Like I literally listed my assistant Debbie and my manager Paul and my brother in Lamar and Dee and Deja who did my hair and makeup today. So it's about the people in my life

Starting point is 00:51:50 who love me, support me. I've been so blessed to have friends. It took a while to find those friends and to have a team, a support team of people who really get me, who about that, but maybe we, and I'm not going to yet, but maybe I will later. But I've just been really super duper aware of how blessed I am to be surrounded by such care,

Starting point is 00:52:19 such love, and such amazing energy. And I've been really, I'm not gonna talk about that, but I've been really, I'm not gonnaper aware of how blessed I am to be surrounded by such care, such love, and such amazing energy. But I also am aware that what you put out is already coming back to you. So that I have in part conspired with the energy that I am putting out into the world to bring really, really beautiful, positive energy to me

Starting point is 00:52:46 with the people who I have the pleasure of working with. So I'm a very blessed, intensely grateful woman today. That's incredible. I'm so happy to hear that. I feel the same way having been recently married to Natalie and having our daughter and just like- I don't know. So how long were you guys dating

Starting point is 00:53:03 before you decided to get married? Three years. And were you doing the podcast? So like dating and doing the podcast together. I started my show like in 2019 and the show has evolved drastically. I was thinking about that recently. It's just like at first,

Starting point is 00:53:24 when I started the show I was thinking about that recently. It's just like at first, when I started the show as a single guy, so the show's always been this kind of pop culture relationship show where we kind of use pop culture and the things that are going on in the world as kind of a launching pad for conversations about our own lives. And as a single guy, I was like, I suppose on this journey,

Starting point is 00:53:43 having primarily a mostly woman audience. So it was like, here I was,, I suppose on this journey, having primarily a mostly woman audience. So it was like, here I was, this single guy who was learning through my audience and I'd have a lot of women guests. And so I was like kind of enlightening myself about, I guess ultimately looking for love, so to speak. And then when Nellie and I dated, it was still, we just dated. How did you meet?

Starting point is 00:54:03 I slid into my DMs. I slid into his DMs. We met and we met here it was still, we just dated. How did you meet? I slid into my DMs. I slid into his DMs. We met and we met here in New York, our favorite city. I love it, I love it. Yeah, none of the right people have slid into my DMs. I am recently single, God, this is the first time I'm saying that it's in a public forum

Starting point is 00:54:19 and it's really new, it's literally over a month. How's your heart? It's weird to talk about it and I'm like, I wasn't gonna talk about it, but then it's literally over a month. So. How's your heart? I'm, it's weird to talk about it, and I'm like, I wasn't gonna talk about it, but then it's just like, it's what's going on. Yeah, it's your life right now. I'm just kind of that kind of person, so I'm like, okay, it's what's happening.

Starting point is 00:54:35 What I love about therapy and where I am with my healing is it's both and. I am so grateful that at this stage of my life, I'm 51, that for the past three and a half years, I've had a love of my dream, that I've had an experience with a man that loved the fuck out of me and cared for me in ways that were so healing. It was just such a healing relationship. I've had bad relationships,

Starting point is 00:55:11 I've had a lot of childhood trauma, attachment issues, shame, all that stuff. And love can heal that. Like, I mean, I've done work on myself too, it's not just about another person, but like there's been so much healing that happened. And it was a dream. We had such a good time. Like wonderful adventures we met during the pandemic. And it was incredible. It's a shame that it's over. Who knows what the future holds. It's a shame that it's over, but it also is,

Starting point is 00:55:47 I'm so grateful too that I love myself more than I love him. Do you feel at peace with it ending? Part of me does. The part of me that decided, I ended it, the part of me that decided that I had boundaries and that I have a set of values that I have to be true to, that I have an inner child that needs to be protected and needs to feel safe

Starting point is 00:56:13 at all times and he's an amazing man, but I have to honor and protect my inner child. I have to set boundaries and I have to be aligned with my values and when the alignment feels off, then I have to make an adjustment. So, and sometimes it's, I don't know if we'll ever, you know, get back together or whatever. I do know that it's been the love of my life,

Starting point is 00:56:45 the love of my dreams, and it was awesome. And I am also aware that I've never really taken a break from dating men and sex for like more than like a couple months. So in the past like 30 years since I've been like dating, there's always been like, I've either been in a relationship, most of the time I was single,

Starting point is 00:57:09 or there was a roster, right? Like there was a roster. And even like before when I, I mean, I deleted all like all when I met, cause I thought he would be my forever guy. Like, so all the guys that would be like the guys that would text when I'm single again, like they've all been blocked.

Starting point is 00:57:25 So there's like, and I don't really want to, honestly, when it was as good as it was, he was incredibly beautiful. He is incredibly beautiful, hot. The passion and the combination of the sex and love, like when the sex is like really hot and steamy, and then you're madly in love is like incredible. That's really hard and rare to find.

Starting point is 00:57:54 And just the way he looked at me, there's this song from Yentl, I was actually thinking about it, I was journaling yesterday, song from Yentl, will someone ever look at me that way? Do you know Yentl? So, okay.

Starting point is 00:58:07 So Yentl directed and starring Barbra Streisand like circa 1983-ish comes out. She plays a woman, a Jewish woman who wants to like study to be a rabbi, but they don't allow women to study. So she pretends to be a man. And then while she's pretending to be a man. And then she's pretending to be a man, studying to be a rabbi.

Starting point is 00:58:26 She falls in love with one of her friends and colleagues in the school, played by, what's his name? Oh my God, the hot, I can't think of his name right now. But anyway, so, and then he is like, fall in love with this girl, but she's in love with him, but he doesn't know that she's really a woman. And so as she's watching him watch this woman,

Starting point is 00:58:50 he's like, see the way he looks at her, will someone ever look at me that way? And I remember connecting deeply to that song when I was a teenager for a lot of reasons. For one, I'm trans and everyone thought I was a boy and I had a crush on this guy and no one thought I was a boy. And I was, had a crush on this guy. And no one knew I was a girl. And he was looking at a girl this way.

Starting point is 00:59:11 And so I had this whole, if you know Jose Munoz's theory of dis-identification, then it's a very dis-identifying moment. And it's beautiful. And in this last relationship, more than any other relationship I've had, he looked at me that way. Like when we would wake up together,

Starting point is 00:59:30 the way he looked at me was everything. So I'm, it's sad. There's a part of me that's sad that it's over, but then the bigger part of me is just so grateful that I got to experience that. It's honestly beautiful hearing you talk about it, just something I've learned. I'm 43 years old and I'm very lucky to have Nellie in my life

Starting point is 00:59:51 and I have every expectation of being with her for the rest of my life. But one thing I've learned through life is I've reinvented myself multiple times. I think we all have different lives and we have these peaks and valleys. And to hear you kind of end this season of your life and who knows what might happen with the two of you.

Starting point is 01:00:12 But that you can look back on something that must still be very heartbreaking and have a lot of sadness, but at the same time you speak about it in such a positive way, even though you had to leave that. And I think a lot of people, we talk to people all the time about relationships and breakup and heartbreak.

Starting point is 01:00:27 And most people aren't able to have that much gratitude for something they have that much sadness about. And I think that's a really beautiful thing because that's one thing I've had to learn. I look back and some of my saddest moments, times where I was just depressed or just down bad, I felt like, how can I get over this? I now look back, some of my best memories

Starting point is 01:00:51 because it's like I got through it, I rose above, I used that as a launching pad to change my life. But like, how were you able, obviously you've talked about therapy, but how have you been able to do and reflect so that you can appreciate both the good and bad aspects of your life? Because you have such a piece about something

Starting point is 01:01:11 that most people in your shoes, you said like a month ago it ended. Yeah, literally, what is it, April 2nd? Yeah, most people at that time would still be calling up all their friends, like I need to talk, you know, like for me, it took me like eight months getting over a girlfriend once. And my girlfriends have been like reaching out, I've been really busy.

Starting point is 01:01:29 What's interesting, I'm a therapist and it's helping me process it a lot, but literally a big aspect of my therapy, it's specifically trauma resilience therapy based in the community resiliency model or CRIM. It's a modality created by the Trauma Research Institute. And I've been doing this work with Jennifer Bird and Flyer. And there's a specific set of tools that you use. And it's literally about,

Starting point is 01:01:50 trauma is really about the nervous system, right? We all are programmed with the fight, flight, or freeze, mechanism in our nervous systems. And most of like sort of, we have sympathetic arousal and parasympathetic arousal. Sympathetic arousal is that fight, fight or freeze. Parasympathetic is like rest and digest. Parasympathetic is like the good juicy stuff, right?

Starting point is 01:02:19 And so ideally in the tools of the community resiliency model are about like regulating that nervous system, getting us out of what we would call high zone and in that sort of resilient zone and widening that resilience zone. We have low zone if you think of like a building, right? There's a basement that would be low zone. The main floor would be your resilience zone.

Starting point is 01:02:39 And then the attic would be high zone. And high zone is that sympathetic arousal, that fight, flight or freeze, that anxiety or whatever. Our resilience zone like kind of goes up and down. So within that resilience zone, we have peaks and valleys, but in that zone, what's crucial is both and, the idea of both and that there's maybe something

Starting point is 01:03:00 challenging in my life, but something else is also true actually. So there is the sense of sadness, loss and grief that certainly exists, right? But something else is true. And so I have to, in my body, sense into it. Tracking is one of the six tools of the Community Resiliency Model.

Starting point is 01:03:17 Tracking is one of them. So I have to be consciously aware at all, ideally at all times, of what's going on in my body. Sometimes I need to leave my body as associated and like, you know, kind of zone out. But like right now as I track, I'm like super aware of like, right now it feels like the left side

Starting point is 01:03:36 is like that resilient, like I set a boundary. I, you know, looked after my inner child and the right side is feeling like that little girl who's like, oh my God, I lost the love of my life. So it's the both and and allowing them to coexist. And yeah, but it's about the body, it's about centering, because in the head and the brain and the body

Starting point is 01:04:02 are all, connected, it's all connected, right? So it's that both and really, the both and of it is really how I'm managing it. Sometimes it comes up when I'm less busy, the side of the grief will come up a little bit more, and then I identified this week in therapy that the grief is more of the inner child, it's more of the little girl who feels lost

Starting point is 01:04:29 and who feels like no one will ever love me and all that stuff, but like the truth is, someone did love me, and he loved me with all his heart, and he's heartbroken and devastated that we're no longer together. And he thought I was his forever girl, you know, and we were making plans, and I had never really been in a relationship with a man who was making future plans with me,

Starting point is 01:04:50 and we were making plans together, and all of that is sad, right? That it hasn't worked out, but like, I know I'm lovable. I know I have been loved, I am loved, but again, you have to love yourself more than you love the other person. And when you set boundaries and those boundaries are not, and those boundaries are crossed without going into detail,

Starting point is 01:05:18 it's like one has to make a decision and I choose me. With love and with respect, I usually do a 30 day, at least 30 days of no contact to just disconnect and process, so we did that and then we spoke for the first time, you know, a few days ago, after the 30 days and he's still processing, I broke up with him. It feels like so much of my business to be talking about.

Starting point is 01:05:48 I think people really appreciate it, just that breakups are so hard and the way that you are able to handle this with such grace, I think it's really inspiring because we talk to people every week who struggle with moving on from relationships. I think the big piece for me too, there's just so many different, there's just so many different,

Starting point is 01:06:06 there's attachment theory, right? When you're thinking about healthy attachment versus anxious or avoiding attachment, but there's also like codependency and like codependency work, codependent no more, Melanie Beatty is everything. Language of letting go, also Melanie Beatty and women who love too much

Starting point is 01:06:22 if you have codependency issues. For me, what that work does is teaches you to focus on your 50%, your side of the street, that like, I'm responsible again for the energy I bring into the relationship. I can't change someone, I can't care take for someone. I'm responsible for my 50% of the relationship. And so that needs to be my focus.

Starting point is 01:06:44 I can't change him, I can't change him. I can't make him do something, but I'm responsible for this, right? So that helps too. And it's really literally a sense of detachment, a healthy detachment. When you are codependent, there's an enmeshment that happens that is unhealthy

Starting point is 01:07:04 that I luckily was able to avoid in this relationship. So the part of me that wants to be co-dependent, that wants to take care of him because I've broken his heart, that wants to like, there is that part of me, but then again, both hands. What I'm grateful for are a lot of different tools. I'm grateful that at 51 I I have, I've learned some stuff

Starting point is 01:07:25 that I actually have a little wisdom. I've done a lot of work to have some, a bunch of different tools in my toolbox to manage that are based in like trauma resilience, shame resilience, cause shame came up during this breakup, codependency work, attachment stuff, self-compassion, and then art and beauty. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person.

Starting point is 01:07:49 I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's a really important part of being a black person. I think that's think like with, again, with all the love for him and I don't ever wanna disparage him,

Starting point is 01:08:06 but like white straight men, he's a white straight man, are, I don't know what, I don't know how you identify, I know you're major one, but you could be pansexual or bisexual. But like in my experience, most white straight men have not done the work to unlearn patriarchy, to interrogate it, to also do the work to interrogate white supremacy. He's an amazing, he's an amazing soul and actually he's quite younger than me, he just turned 30. Very

Starting point is 01:08:38 emotionally mature in a lot of ways for his age but then also needs more tools in his toolbox. And politically I realized that he hasn't done some of the work to interrogate. He just doesn't even think in these terms. And it was, honestly, it was lovely to like, because I think I overthink everything. And so it was really wonderful to just come home and just like have fun and not like have to think about,

Starting point is 01:09:06 you know, patriarchy. Everything. White supremacy, whatever. But he hasn't done the work to sort of become aware and critically in the parlance of, you know, feminist that consciousness raising back in the day and second wave feminism, there would be consciousness raising sessions

Starting point is 01:09:24 where women would get together and begin to understand how they've been sort of indoctrinated into the patriarchy. So that he hasn't done that consciousness raising work and around not only patriarchy, but white supremacy, classism, and then, and then I think too, there, if you haven't done that work and you live in America, then you probably are harping, no matter what race you are, you're probably harboring

Starting point is 01:09:50 some implicit, latent misogyny, some latent white supremacy, transphobia. If you haven't done conscious work to become aware of how you've internalized it and then begin to do the work to unlearn that. I have had to do that work with misogyny, with white supremacy, with transphobia. And as a black person, I internalize white supremacy

Starting point is 01:10:18 and anti-blackness as a trans woman, I internalize transphobia and anti-trans ideas. So all of those things too are part of, there's a healing component in that. Like we, you know, it's political, but it's also about healing because it's like, how do I free myself? And trauma can be something that, you know,

Starting point is 01:10:39 shackles us, shame can be something that shackles us, and grief, but a lot of my internalized shame was about transphobia, that I internalized transphobia and hated myself because I was trans and hated myself because I'm black and hated myself because I'm from a working class background and hated myself for any number of reasons, because I didn't look the way I,

Starting point is 01:10:58 yeah, and like Beyonce or when I was younger, you know, Vanessa Williams or Naomi Campbell. So there's a lot of different ways that I can hate myself for internalized shame. And these things for me are not just, they're not divorced from a sociopolitical context. They are informed by fat phobia, by transphobia, by racism and misogyny.

Starting point is 01:11:22 And so my experience, so I, you know, part of the, another reason I wanna take a break is that straight men, and I, you know, maybe there's a queer man in my future, I don't know. It just, I'm not often attracted to queer men. There's some bisexual men who are open to dating trans women, gay men obviously aren't into me. I wanna be open, but like,

Starting point is 01:11:43 I just need a break from straight men too. A lot of, I mean, there are wonderful straight men out there who've done the work and they're doing the work. Usually they're scooped up very quickly. I'm just kind of exhausted with straight men right now and all of the thing, and the uninterrogated misogyny and patriarchy. And when that's with love and that's not to disparage anyone,

Starting point is 01:12:07 he is an amazing human being. He is an amazing human being, but the uninterrogated patriarchy is just like exhausting. Do you think younger you would have been motivated to try to change him? Because you- Yes, yes. I, oh my God, a fixer-upper. Oh, honey. Love. oh my God, a fixer upper. Oh, honey.

Starting point is 01:12:25 Like a little renovation project. A little HGTV. A little HGTV for a relationship. Absolutely. But also I would change myself. Like the younger Laverne was like, I can change him. But the way I would change him is I would be so perfect. So amazing. I'd be so good in bed.

Starting point is 01:12:47 I never thought I need to cook, but I'd be so good in bed and I'd be so amazing and so incredible to him that he would just change and love me and become a new person. That doesn't work. You can't change anyone. You can't be so amazing that they're going to turn into new people.

Starting point is 01:13:09 And one of the most important things I learned about relationships is that by Angelou to Oprah, people show you who they are and when they show you, believe them. And then for me, I can't change someone, so once I see who someone is, I have to make a decision. Can I deal with this or do I need to peace out? And I mean, I think that like working through,

Starting point is 01:13:33 it was the thing, cause my ex was like, well, things aren't hunky dory and people have to work through things. But certainly that's the case. But when someone is shown you who they are and then you've actually given them opportunities to grow and whatever and they haven't done that, and you've given them quite a bit of time,

Starting point is 01:13:54 it's just, you can't change people. I believe people can change, but that change, because I've changed and I've grown, but that has to come from you. One has to change when one is ready and when one is willing. And then, and there's tools out there and there's different things and ways to heal, but it can, my therapist says it doesn't have to be

Starting point is 01:14:18 an ordeal to heal, but sometimes it is, for me it has been deeply painful to confront the ways in which I have internalized shame about transphobia, for example, just to be a trans person and to internalize that and to make a decision to like accept myself and then to medically transition and to live authentically. It's freedom now, but the decision and the process was deeply painful. It was a relief when it finally happened though,

Starting point is 01:14:48 when I finally decided to do it. And then the real work started of like dealing with like the childhood trauma and the abuse and the bullying and the violence and just the pain associated with that. And then also letting go that it wasn't my fault. I think like when we're kids, we think, what did I do wrong?

Starting point is 01:15:10 And why am I not good enough that I'm inviting all this violence and stuff? So it's work and it's not for the faint of heart. I relate so much to this. I myself have been through sexual assault and bullying and all of this childhood trauma. And recently, a year ago, I got into EMDR therapy and it like absolutely changed my life.

Starting point is 01:15:34 My therapist does some EMDR. We've only touched the surface of that. It is magical. Yeah, like a lot of times what's interesting from my understanding is that like there's something, it can really just shift everything. How long did you do EMDR? Like a lot of times what's interesting from my understanding is that like there's something, it can really just shift everything. How long did you do EMDR?

Starting point is 01:15:49 Like did you immediately feel things shifting when you committed? Yeah, wow. Absolutely, it felt very immediate. I mean, obviously I continued to work and continue to work at it, but it is this, the whole thing is just you reprocess it and that way you can kind of watch

Starting point is 01:16:05 what has happened to you like it's a movie and not like it's something that has deeply affected you. What's brilliant about that is the nervous system does not know if a trauma happened 20 years ago or 10 years ago. Once triggered, the nervous system experiences it as if it's happening right now. And when we've been traumatized,

Starting point is 01:16:28 the timeline can be really askew. So we can, and when it's hysterical, it's historical. So it's like, if I'm having, you know, this quote unquote hysterical reaction is probably because it's a historical trauma. And so the beautiful thing about, we've done some processing work, not EMDR, but with my therapist, some processing work, not EMDR, but with my therapist and processing work

Starting point is 01:16:45 about putting that story, that event, in the proper timeline so that I'm not affected by it as if it's happening now, that once it's processed, it's in the timeline in a way and I'm able to, yeah, have some distance from it. And then also there's a phrase that my therapist uses, completing the survival response. I love that phrase, first of all,

Starting point is 01:17:10 because I think that there's something that happens, particularly if you are a freezer in the fight, flight or freeze scenario, there's a few other ones, but those are the big three. I'm a freezer. And so there's not, freezing is not completing that survival response. So then you're constantly,

Starting point is 01:17:26 and then when you've had a lot of trauma, what therapy says you turn an alarm bell into a dinner bell and a dinner bell into an alarm bell. Does that resonate for you? When she said that to me, I was like, bitch, that's why I've been dating unavailable men who are abusive and who are unavailable and mean to me because I took the alarm bell

Starting point is 01:17:50 and turned it into a dinner bell. So like the trauma and the abuse made me think that abuse and trauma was love. Yes, absolutely. So I turned, literally turned the alarm bell into the dinner bell. So the healing process, part of it is understanding the alarm bell as the alarm, as the threat, the real threat, and then the dinner bell

Starting point is 01:18:18 being the real dinner bell. And it's the dinner bell. And so much of over the years of like, it just can only be healed in relationships too. Friendships, therapeutic relationships and romantic relationships. So I remember that when I was with a few boyfriends ago when he was like available and loving and kind,

Starting point is 01:18:38 it freaked me out. I was like, what the? No, you should be mean to me. Exactly. And so I had to like, luckily I had therapy and I had to be like, okay the fuck? No, you should be mean to me. What the fuck? Yeah, exactly. And so I had to like, luckily I had therapy and I had to be like, okay, this is what, and I started dating differently. I started making different choices about who I was dating.

Starting point is 01:18:53 And so then the available person who treated me well was in front of me, but my body was, this was unfamiliar. So I had to make a nervous system adjustment to like get used to the treatment that is loving, that is healthy, that is not abusive, that abuse isn't love. And that it's like, it's like this mind fuck. It's this whole kind of cognitive dissonance,

Starting point is 01:19:23 but it's really just getting that understanding when the dinner bell is the dinner bell and when the alarm bell is the alarm bell. So yeah, we went, yeah. But that's so much of the work of healing trauma. So then you can receive it. So if you haven't done the work, if you're in trauma or shame or whatever,

Starting point is 01:19:43 and you haven't done the work, when the love comes, you won't be able to receive it. There's this beautiful moment when Oprah was ending her show and she was having a conversation with the Yonla Van Zandt. And they were sort of processing because Oprah wanted to do a show with the Yonla and Yonla was like, it has to happen now, it has to happen now.

Starting point is 01:20:02 She was, you know, Oprah wasn't ready to, she hadn. She was, you know, and Oprah wasn't ready to, she hadn't launched the network, she hasn't, so she wasn't ready. And so she had gotten an offer, Yonla with another network. And then Oprah was like, well, I guess you have to go. And she went and they changed her and she wasn't herself and the show didn't do well.

Starting point is 01:20:17 And so Yonla comes back and she's talking to Oprah and she was just like, I couldn't receive it. And she's basically, Oprah just like, I couldn't receive it. And she's basically, Oprah's like, I sat in the audience and patted you on stage on my show, did you not understand how amazing I thought you were? And she was like, I was still this girl from the ghetto who thought nothing of herself.

Starting point is 01:20:38 And even as she was giving advice to people and even as she was fixing other people's lives, she hadn't internalized it's lives, she hadn't internalized it for herself. She hadn't given it to herself. So even as Oprah is like offering the world and like saying that you're amazing, you're amazing, people can tell you're amazing all day long and that you're beautiful all day long. But if you don't believe it, you can't receive it. And she was like, I couldn't receive it. And so in this moment in the piece, I just always think about this, she literally says, I couldn't receive it, it. And she was like, I couldn't receive it. And so at this moment in the piece, I just always think about this.

Starting point is 01:21:05 She literally says, I couldn't receive it, Oprah. And she says it like five or six times. I couldn't receive it. I couldn't receive it. And she gets emotional and Oprah's like, okay, I understand. I understand. And so that is the thing too.

Starting point is 01:21:19 And I think this is love, but it's also like all the other things that we wanna manifest in our lives in terms professionally that we have to prepare ourselves energetically, spiritually, psychologically and emotionally to receive it when it shows up. Well, we're not going to be able to know what to do with it when we see celebrities sort of very young spiraling out getting addicted to drugs and there's all this success. And success and fame is a lot, it's a lot. And it was a lot for me in my 40s, when I got paint really famous and the height of Orange is New Black

Starting point is 01:21:54 and I couldn't walk down the street. It was really freaky and it was a lot. And I couldn't imagine being 20 something without the skills I had in my 40s. And it was still hard in my 40s. So being able to receive it, if you can't, then you might sabotage it. Usually that's what I would do.

Starting point is 01:22:15 I would sabotage it. I would run away from it, the love or the career. One has to prepare oneself, energetically, spiritually, emotionally, psychologically. So you have to work on your shit. Absolutely. Sabotaging is something that I feel like I definitely relate to.

Starting point is 01:22:31 I mean, I struggled so much with just with like the inner child work. I think that's kind of a lot of what my therapist really needed me to work on. How did your inner saboteur, as RuPaul would say, how did it show up for you? And would it be in relationships or professionally or? It was sexually.

Starting point is 01:22:47 Mm. Yeah, I think it was because I was sexually assaulted very young and then again, that I think it just- It's not unusual actually for someone, I don't know how old it was and all this is very sensitive, it feels like trigger warning, but often abuse victims, particularly if they're very young, find themselves being abused again and re-victimized.

Starting point is 01:23:11 It's almost like the predators smell it all new. And for me too, as a survivor, that I won't go into details, but as a survivor myself, getting aware of the predatory energy, like really kind of like, there are people with that energy that are just, there are people who are just straight-up predators, and like that was some of the energy I was attracting too, for a very long time.

Starting point is 01:23:37 And that's something hard to kind of just like, feel like, oh wow, I was attracting like abusive, predatory people and inviting like feel like, oh wow, I was attracting like abusive, predatory people and inviting them into like. My life, in my home. My body. My body, yeah. Yeah, it is deep.

Starting point is 01:23:52 So sexually for you, the sabbatical, like how did, I mean, was it EMDR? Was it, what was, I mean, that was just last year. It seems like, you know, you were in a relationship that presumably healthy, I hope. What has been the journey for you to let go of this self-sabotage, to understand when the alarm bell was the alarm bell,

Starting point is 01:24:16 you know, to reprocess and reprogram? Was it just the EMDR or was it something else? I mean, the EMDR was definitely like the holy grail of the awakening that I absolutely needed. I journaled a lot, I wrote a lot, but I think being in a healthy relationship really did show me the path that I needed to be on. I was very reckless, I made very poor decisions, and I think a lot of it stems from the sexual assault but also abandonment. A lot of abandonment anxiety is something

Starting point is 01:24:48 that I've really struggled with. An anxious attachment in the problem of attachment theory. Yeah, yeah I think it. Or avoidant even. A lot of it is from my dad left when I was very young and I think the way my therapist describes it is like that was the first man in your life

Starting point is 01:25:06 that's supposed to love you and be there for you and take care of you and he didn't want to. How old were you? Four. And then I was 10 when I was sexually assaulted. So it was like this back to back things that happened when I was so young and I had no idea how to process it. No, of course not.

Starting point is 01:25:22 Absolutely not. And I didn't tell anyone and I lived with it for a really, really long time. I would think that there would be a lot of shame attached to that. Oh yeah. So was there, I mean, the shame work, a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of work I did, for years I had to just deal with the shame stuff

Starting point is 01:25:39 and the layers of the shame for Nate Brown's work. Cause I had done, I attempted some shame work with John Bradshaw's work, but it's so, shame is so tricky, and it's so contagious that it like, kind of can hijack you, but Brene Brown's work has been really pivotal in working through that shame. How have you worked through that shame?

Starting point is 01:25:59 I mean, I think I credit a lot of it to the therapy. I suppressed all of it. And I kind of lived in this state of like, that didn't happen to me. And I would lie to myself and be like, I wasn't, no, I wasn't sexually assaulted. None of that happened to me. That was someone else.

Starting point is 01:26:17 And then I would get triggered and I would go into this inner child and it would be this like manic, very sad experience that I would go through. And then I would come out of it and it would be like, again, that never happened to me. Thank you for sharing that. That is so, because I did that too. I would have these, literally in my 20s,

Starting point is 01:26:38 I would say every now and then I fall apart. Quote to quote Bonnie Tyler, but my fall aparts would be be like girl, like a mess. I got a mess. I just remember one time I just like, life was hard. I couldn't, I was going through it and I used to buy gallons of water from the deli and I was like walking down the street.

Starting point is 01:26:59 I lived on San Luis street at the time and I was like, I just remember throwing the thing and it like burst, burst on the street and I would just I was like, I just remember throwing the thing and it like burst, it burst on the street and I would just have these like meltdowns regularly. And when you don't deal with the stuff that is going on, it will deal with you. It will deal with you and the denial, but what I've come to understand is what's beautiful about,

Starting point is 01:27:20 because when I think about my childhood, it was full disassociation, full. I was not in my body. I couldn't be in my body. So I and then all of the defense mechanisms were just piled up. So by the by 20, by the time I was in my 20s and I was in New York, I had this elaborate cover and all of these layers of defense mechanisms. And then it would all like I would be triggered and it would all like sort of fall apart.

Starting point is 01:27:43 And I'd have these meltdowns and I would lose it. And it took me a long time to unpack all of that and to actually just start to tell the truth. Like it really starts with telling the truth. This actually happened. First saying that it happened and then getting to, it wasn't my fault. Oh yeah.

Starting point is 01:28:04 And that, that took time. That took time, that's the shame. But the journey, my therapist, so I'm sort of envision, I think this is what she says, that if we go from what's wrong with me to what happened to me to what's right with me. Absolutely. And like, cause I was like, what's right with me. Absolutely. And like, cause I was like, what's wrong with me?

Starting point is 01:28:28 I'm like, I'm fine. I'm broken, I'm broken. I'm broken. And that's the shame. The shame, Renee Brown defines shame is the intensely painful belief that we are unworthy of connection and belonging. She says that guilt is, I'm sorry I made a mistake

Starting point is 01:28:42 and shame is, I'm sorry I made a mistake and shame is I'm sorry I am a mistake. And when you have experienced abuse at a very early age or abandonment from a parent, it is, I am unworthy. Because particularly from a parent, it's like we're dependent on survival from our parents. And when they abandon us, and there's a lot of different ways to abandon a child. And we've experienced abuse, it's like I'm unworthy.

Starting point is 01:29:10 And the abuse, the shame around that is I'm just gross and disgusting and I'm awful. And that feeling, that sensation is deadly. It's deadly. Shame is linked to depression, to suicide, to just a lot of stuff that's really not great addiction. And so I was actually watching, Oprah just did a new special on weight and stuff.

Starting point is 01:29:38 And what I loved about what I saw of it as a follow-up with Weight Watchers is that she actually finally used the term diet culture, which I had never heard Oprah use. I'm an Oprah stan. But I'd never seen her the first special was great, but I didn't see her really taking accountability with her career and her own struggles with weight how she participated in in diet culture and own struggles with weight, how she participated in a diet culture and perpetuating fat phobia, a culture of fat phobia and an industry, a billion dollar industry to keep people thin.

Starting point is 01:30:11 And there was the beginnings of her being accountable and it was so vulnerable. And for her, this is why I love Oprah, it was so vulnerable and it felt like something she was still processing that like diet culture felt like it was maybe a new phrase for her even but she was grappling with that and how she in saying how I participated in that. But the shame around that we what we do to fat people and to look a certain way. There's so many different ways, especially for women, that we can internalize shame. I don't look a certain way. I'm fat. I'm ugly. I'm trans, I'm black. So again, these things are not divorced from a sociopolitical environment,

Starting point is 01:30:50 but it's work that we have to do internally, but there's so many levels of awareness. Renee says that ultimately, this is why we call it shame resilience and trauma resilience, because ultimately, if we are human, we're going to feel shame. But the work is to build resilience to it, to even when the culture is telling you you're not enough,

Starting point is 01:31:11 there's the negative comments, and you look in the mirror, or you see a picture and it's a bad angle, all the things that can make us feel shame, or you've done something that you're not proud of, and it's affected someone negatively, how do you have resilience to the shame, to the story? Because it's a story that I am a mistake.

Starting point is 01:31:32 How do I build resilience so that I don't go back into that level of shame tapes? And guilt, she says, is actually more adaptive. Guilt is like about behavior. It's a focus on behavior and shame is a focus on self. So that is, that's hard, that's really, really hard work. I feel like I used to always tell myself, this happened because of me and now I'm at a point where I'm like, no, this just happened to me

Starting point is 01:31:57 and I survived and I'm okay. And now like even the fact that I'm able to sit here and talk about it today, I could have never, ever, ever done this. And so I feel so proud of myself to just be able to be like, yeah, well, that happened to me. And I hate that it did, but I'm okay.

Starting point is 01:32:13 Yeah, and I think it's just, children are just so vulnerable. Children are so vulnerable. But what is so amazing, a dear, dear friend who I should reach out to, there's a lot of friends I need to reach out to. We get busy. But this dear friend said two things to me

Starting point is 01:32:29 when I first started on my, like, one of my healing journeys. They said, you don't realize how amazing you are and you don't really see yourself. And I'm gonna love you until you learn to love yourself. And they did. Yeah, I was a friend. And that was amazing. They also said that it's never too late

Starting point is 01:32:49 to have a happy childhood. So that each of us has a child inside of us, the inner child work you alluded to, we all have a child inside of us who needs to play, who needs to have fun, but also who needs to play, who needs to, you know, have fun, but also who needs to be protected, who needs to feel safe. I love that you say that. I've never thought about it

Starting point is 01:33:13 and it just came to me right now. It's like my relationship with my father has never been great. And obviously it caused a lot of my abandonment issues. But recently at our wedding, he gave a speech. And this, yeah. And I never ever thought this speech would happen. And he didn't say much, but he was extremely emotional.

Starting point is 01:33:37 And I think that cured that part of me that I've always needed to just like see some sort of care from him, some sort of emotion from him. And I got it. And like that, it gave me that happy childhood that I feel like I've always looked for. In that moment, it's funny because I've had those moments with my mother

Starting point is 01:33:56 and then I love my mother dearly, but sometimes she's just, we have to meet our parents where they are and love them for who they are. And I do. But my mom and I, you know, I had definitely had moments with her over the years and got there. But then it was also, it's not just about my mother for me

Starting point is 01:34:15 and I never had a relation, I met my father once, I never had a relationship with my father. So it's like the re-parenting myself, but then also having a loving relationship where I actually felt safe with a man, like where I really, where this last relationship, I never felt this safe with anyone. And that is profoundly healing.

Starting point is 01:34:38 And I'm just processing how the levels of healing that happened in that relationship. So like the safety piece, and I say this all the time, and people sort of poo poo safe spaces, and oh, this touchy feely liberal woke safe space thing, but it's actually crucial. Our nervous systems are hardwired to look for a threat. We actually cannot process,

Starting point is 01:35:02 we can't grow if we don't feel safe because we are in that heightened, when we're in that sympathetic arousal, we are in limbic brain, we are like, we're not in our prefrontal cortex, so we can't even fully process stuff because we're like, we have to actually feel safe to learn, to adapt, to heal, and we can give ourselves that safety.

Starting point is 01:35:25 And it's incredible if you have, you're lucky enough to have a partner or friend. It doesn't have to be, what is beautiful about my life is that yes, I'm coming out of this wonderful romantic relationship, which is very intimate. I mean, my relationship to my body and sex, and then it's just really healed. And it's like, ew. And it was, ew.

Starting point is 01:35:46 And this last relationship. Ew. Ow, what? Um. Ah. Ah. Ah. Not to toot my own horn.

Starting point is 01:35:53 I got my life, honey. I got my life, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Ew. Um. What was I saying? Um.

Starting point is 01:36:03 Safe space. But yeah, the safe space that like, but there is something specific, a certain intimacy with a romantic partner that is, that can be healing, especially if there has been some sexual dysfunction or, or, or violation, but it can happen with friends too. It can happen. You can have intimate relationships with friends and with the therapist. It's not always about that romantic partner. And I think that people need to understand that.

Starting point is 01:36:27 And I think too, friendship, therapy, are ways to practice intimacy. I think that also another part of, I literally mentioned this thing on intimacy workshop, which was like a group therapy thing for many, many years, where we practice intimacy. Because again, if you grew up in a dysfunctional home with parents who didn't, you know, did the best they could

Starting point is 01:36:52 but didn't know how to really be intimate, didn't know how to really, you know, do a lot of the things that we need in terms of care, we have to practice intimacy. And it feels really weird and awkward and icky if we're not used to it and then we wanna run away. And so just getting to practice that and again, readjust our nervous systems,

Starting point is 01:37:12 it's really crucial so that when it does present itself in a romantic relationship, we can kind of maybe sort of handle it, you know? It's still, it's even with all the work I did and when I was falling in love with my ex, I was still like, oh, you know, but what was different is I knew he was falling with me. And I think this is that way.

Starting point is 01:37:35 We were falling, really falling together. And that, there was never like, does he, is he falling? Is he, there was never like, is he all in? There was never any of that. And that's different, that he was fully all in. And I knew he was in love with me. It was just so clear.

Starting point is 01:37:54 It was the way he looked at me. And there was a moment, a slow dancing moment to Elton John that just kind of like was like, what just happened? Because he started out, okay, TMI, he, we're no long together, but he's still, but he's very private. But what we started out as like, he was, I, I was living in LA and I had bought a place here in New York

Starting point is 01:38:18 before the pandemic, I went into escrow cause I was just tired of being in hotels when I must working a lot in New York. And so I was good, I bought a place here that was gonna be a pied-de-terre in November, October, November 2019. And, but just when I was here in town, we didn't get to meet, the pandemic happened

Starting point is 01:38:36 and we were just started texting more. And so when I came to New York to close on my apartment, we met and I, and at the time, but do I wanna, let's be real, let's keep it real. At the time I was like not really looking for a relationship. I was like, it would be great to have a consistent, hot, fuck buddy in LA and have a consistent,

Starting point is 01:38:59 hot one in New York. Yeah, bicoastal. Like bicoastal, yeah, like Bicostal honeys. And I had recently auditioned one in LA. Auditioned one. And it was, he was so hot. He was so hot. Is he getting a callback?

Starting point is 01:39:17 No, overall no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. He was beautiful, like physically he was beautiful. He was artistic. But then I realized, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, It was like that, it was too much too fast too soon. He was like too into me too quickly. But I was like, this is cute, but this is probably a month. This is probably about a month of me being able to do this. One of the things I've learned too is when things move quickly, they end quickly.

Starting point is 01:40:01 Like when people like jump in and it's like passion, passion, hot passion right away, it fizzles just as quickly. Like when people like jump in and it's like passion, passion, hot passion right away, it fizzles just as quickly, usually in my experience. And it was a little under a month actually when he just showed his ass and he got kind of tipsy one night and I was like, oh my God, this dude is crazy. And I had to block him. Never be afraid to block. It's interesting how intense, you mentioned intensity.

Starting point is 01:40:29 Like I think a lot of people will wanna like, the chivalry that he showed on his first date, you know, it's like, oh, it's so exciting. It was lovely, you know, it was lovely. Yeah, but it's interesting how intensity can present itself in a way that at first seems, you know, okay and almost attractive and lovely. And then as you got to know him.

Starting point is 01:40:48 A younger me would have not understood, this is the great thing about getting older, a younger me wouldn't have understood that this guy had a lot going on and that this was not sustainable. Like a younger me would have just been like, oh my God, I met this great guy, and he's just so chivalrous, and he's hot,

Starting point is 01:41:11 and he has a big personality. And all the things, you know, right? A younger me wouldn't have been able to be like, okay. That's where that fix would have come in. You would have saw all the charming things, and then when he got crazy, you would able to be like, okay. That's where that fix would have come in. You would have saw all the charming things and then when he got crazy, you would have probably been like, well, you probably would have made an excuse for the crazy.

Starting point is 01:41:32 Made an excuse for the crazy, maybe said, what did I do? Can I do something? How do I shape shift? I was a shape shifter. It's like, this is why I think I love Mystique from the X-Men. Because for years I was a shape shifter. For years I, this is why I think I love Mystique from the X-Men. Because for years I was a shapeshifter.

Starting point is 01:41:47 For years I was like, who do you want me to be? Who do you need me to be? And I've become that. And authenticity is about showing up and allowing yourself to be seen. And true belonging is when you do that. Show up and allow yourself to be seen and like take it or leave it.

Starting point is 01:42:04 But fitting in, Brene Brown, this is some Brene Brown work, but fitting in is actually the opposite of true belonging because fitting in is that shape shifting, is like figuring out what and who you need me to be and becoming that. But when we do that, we betray ourselves. We betray ourselves and I love that I'm in a stage of my life where I don't do that anymore.

Starting point is 01:42:25 I'm an actress and I can play different characters on screen or on stage. And I learned many years ago to keep the drama on screen and on stage and not in my life. I don't do drama in my life, absolutely not. Speaking of acting, so your role in Orange is the New Black I feel was pivotal. Certainly changed my life.

Starting point is 01:42:44 How did that feel? What did that mean to you to play that role? Honestly, when it started, you know, I booked in 2012, I had just turned 40 and I was gonna stop acting. I moved to New York in 1993 and thought I'd be a superstar in two, three years tops. And I turned 40 and had worked, done a superstar in two, three years tops. And I turned 40 and had worked,

Starting point is 01:43:06 done a lot of off-off-Broadway shows, student films, independent films, for very little money. I had my side card, I'd done a reality show, but I hadn't had that breakthrough moment. And I had been in class and studying and working, and it hadn't happened. And when I turned 40, I was in rent arrears. I had gotten my second eviction notice in a couple of years.

Starting point is 01:43:27 I was working in a restaurant, but business was slow. I was in student loan debt, credit card debt. And I was just like, you need to get your fucking life, your fucking 40. And I was talking to someone who had just gone back to school and I was like, I need to just, I need to let go. I had to, the letting go was like, this is maybe all that God has wanted for me and I need to just change paths now.

Starting point is 01:43:48 And it was very difficult and it was really sad, but I bought GRE study materials and I started getting, literally getting college applications for grad school and was planning to go to grad school and my agent called me and said, there's an audition for some web series and said in a women's prison there's a role for you. I was just like, ugh.

Starting point is 01:44:10 And it was that, but I was like, I read it and I was like, oh, this looks cool. And I prepared the audition with two scenes. I prepared it on my own. I didn't even consult with my acting coach and I went in and did it, got an adjustment, did it again and booked it from that one audition. And I had no idea that, I mean, at the time,

Starting point is 01:44:29 Netflix, House of Cards hadn't come out yet. And Netflix was like the DVD delivery place. And so it was a web series. So I, you know, and then like I get on set my first day and Jodie Foster is there. And she's like, I'm directing episode three. I didn't know episode three would be my back, Cryo Drift Backstory.

Starting point is 01:44:46 I didn't know any of that going. I knew none of that. I just, and I had literally one scene in the pilot. So I was just, when I got that script for the episode three, I was like, oh my God, this is what I've been waiting for my whole career. This kind of storyline. And I was talking to my manager, Paul, about it.

Starting point is 01:45:03 And he was like, when we read that script and it changed that, and that script changed my life. That episode led to my first Emmy nomination, my first Critics' Choice nomination. Jodie Foster, who directed it, she got her first Emmy nomination with her first time directing television. It changed my life, and there's so many things about that, but one of the things I love is that,

Starting point is 01:45:23 God's time, not my time, right? But then that when this moment happened, when I was on set with one of my idols, I mean, Jodie Foster was like, when I met her the first day I was on set, I literally was very calm. And she's like, oh, let me show you around the set. So Jodie Foster commences to give me a tour of the set

Starting point is 01:45:41 because it was my first day. And she's asking me questions about myself. And I was just at craft services, checking out the food. And all of a sudden, I'm staying really calm and it's Jodie fucking Foster in front of me. And I'm like. And it was like a good like 30 minutes. Oh, you want to listen?

Starting point is 01:46:00 She gave me her headphones so I could listen to the scene. She was so sweet. And then I literally get back to my dressing room and I call my brother shaking. I just met Jodie Foster. I don't think I can work. I don't think I can act. Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.

Starting point is 01:46:12 I was completely freaked out. I mean, I idolized, I still idolize Jodie Foster. I literally study scenes of hers like and break them down and try to figure out like what she was doing. And like she was just in front of me, then I got to be directed by her, still one of the highlights of My Cracker Cry.

Starting point is 01:46:29 And I love her so much. I just got to interview her on the red carpet. I saw that. And I love her so much. That changed my life working with her. And it was such an honor. But I was also prepared for the moment. And this is, this is what I say to anybody

Starting point is 01:46:50 that all of the student films I did for free, committing to acting class every week. I remember I was dating two different guys at two different points and they were like, oh, let's go away and we can stay a month. I was like, oh, I have acting class at night. And they were like, oh, you can miss it. I was like, no, no. And class that night. And they were like, oh, you can miss it. I was like, no.

Starting point is 01:47:05 No. No. And for me acting, when I wasn't working, I was in acting class. And I learned early on from Susan Batson, actually, that this has to be my job. That I have to commit to this like nobody's business. And it has to be the most important thing in my life.

Starting point is 01:47:21 The training, the technique, prioritizing it, and I would never let anything get in the way of that. And I worked really, really hard, and I learned the business. I did a reality show, so I learned the branding part of it, which I didn't know how important that would be later. And so when I got, there was the business piece of it, but just artistically, when I was,

Starting point is 01:47:46 Jodi wanted to rehearse a lot before we started shooting and I'm being in her office. And there's a scene that my character has with her wife and Jodi was like, let's try it. And so when I was, the first few times I met Jodi, I was just, I couldn't even breathe, honestly. I was sitting, I was like, and I'm so glad we had those meetings beforehand

Starting point is 01:48:04 because my first time meeting her was on set when she was directing me, I would I was like, and I'm so glad we had those meetings beforehand because my first time meeting her was on set when she was directing me, I would have been like. So, but then the shift happened when she was like, let's try the scene. So we get up and I'm doing a scene with Jodie Foster and she's like, can I touch you? And then we, and she's playing my wife and it was just like, oh, she's an actor too.

Starting point is 01:48:21 I'm an actor. And it just, it humanized her for me in a way. And she's so down to earth and so chill, but she's also brilliant. And she has this light inside of her. And she's so passionate and energetic and smart and just incredible. But I was in her, I'll never forget doing a scene

Starting point is 01:48:38 with Jodie Foster. It was in her office, it wasn't on camera. It was how special that was for me just as an artist and as someone who loves acting and has deep respect for people who really do the work like Jodie. So I was ready artistically and technically to be directed by Jodie Foster and to step fully into this moment

Starting point is 01:49:03 that had been written, not with me in mind, but yeah, so just get ready, work, and when, because there's no, Oprah again, there's no, she says, there's no, it's a thing of luck. Luck is preparation, meaning opportunity. So prepare, prepare, prepare. And when the opportunity comes, be ready and be prepared, and I was. It took, and literally Orange is New Black premiered

Starting point is 01:49:30 20 years after I moved to New York, and then a week later, people were stopping me on the street. I guess people are watching, because we didn't know, we couldn't tell if people were watching on Netflix. And then I watched on Twitter, I was getting 10,000 new followers a week, and then a month later, people were really on Twitter, I was getting 10,000 new followers a week. And then like a month later,

Starting point is 01:49:45 like people were really stopping them because people are really watching. A few months later, I couldn't walk down the street. And so it was kind of really quick and it was weird and exciting and then it got scary because people are running up to you on the streets of New York. And as a trans woman who's had people running up on me

Starting point is 01:50:00 my whole life, it's like, has trauma. The nervous system can experience good things as trauma too. Too much, too fast, too soon. Good things can be that too. It was incredible. And the show has been off the air for years, but I meet people and they still, people are still discovering the show. People were deeply affected by the show. And so it's an honor to have been a part of a project that has affected people that way and those are the kinds of projects that change actors' lives. I'm all about the next thing now.

Starting point is 01:50:30 I've been so lucky to do other work and I have three movies that I've shot that are in the can. I just saw the trailer for it. It looks fucking amazing. Well, it's been announced that I'm in it. I don't know the date. There's a movie called Uglies. It's based on the young adult book series

Starting point is 01:50:48 by Scott Westerfield. And I have a role in it. The role hasn't been announced. I can't say what the role is yet, but the trailer looked so good. I was like, I got so excited. I saw some scenes from it and it may be coming out in the fall.

Starting point is 01:51:01 It's not, you know, sure yet. We're not sure yet. It's gonna be on Netflix. And I'm just so excited. And there's another couple movies. I just shot a movie with Keanu Reeves and Jonah Hill and Jonah directed and that was fabulous. And I have another movie that hasn't been announced yet.

Starting point is 01:51:15 So that's incredible. It really is. How was it like working with Keanu Reeves? Neo, I mean, it's Neo. I'm a huge fan and I was just really, and I'm a huge fan of Jonah's as huge fan, and I was just really, and I'm a huge fan of Jonah's as well. And so I was just like, oh my God, and it was an offer. I didn't have to audition, which was great.

Starting point is 01:51:32 And it was wonderful too, that the role was something, I've never really done anything like it before. And I love that Jonah saw from the workiest scene of mine and my real, like I understand that even though I had a lot of wonderful moments in Orange Is the New Black, I know that the public doesn't know the depth of my range as an actor. And I don't say that arrogantly, I say it is just like

Starting point is 01:52:02 what I know I've already done and can do. And so I'm just really excited for the public to see and understand the range of what I can do as an artist. And I shot, Keanu was amazing. He's very focused. He's very, he's still very sexy. I think he's 59. I used to have a crush on him, probably half the world.

Starting point is 01:52:29 But I was professional and I was able to see his humanity and not project Neo. I keep thinking of Neo, but he's done so many amazing roles over the years. But the Matrix, first Matrix movie is kind of my life. It was incredible, and Jonah was incredible incredible and the role was really amazing. And the character and the preparation had to be so different because she's, so much of my preparation work,

Starting point is 01:52:54 my acting coach is about like opening up the emotional instrument and feeling and this character is completely detached from her feelings. And so figuring out as a very sensitive, very emotional actor and highly sensitive person, what causes someone to just shut off all of that for the job that they're doing and just to kind of be unemotional, still human.

Starting point is 01:53:24 It was tricky, but it was fun. It was really tricky though. It's really tricky. And it's interesting, because there was a moment on set, I mean, there was a scene where I had like a two page monologue basically. And I hadn't worked in like a year, and it's memorizing dialogue is a skill,

Starting point is 01:53:42 and the more you do it, the better you are at it. And it was just like, I knew I knew it, but it just wasn't coming out. And we were about to film my coverage and I had a full nervous breakdown and fucking got myself together and went in and fucking nailed it. And it felt like this wonderful triumph.

Starting point is 01:54:09 But usually in my prep for every character, either a character private moment, it's usually a character private moment, I'm getting real actory. Usually there is some kind of breakdown where when you wanna find the character private moment is usually about finding the character's intimacy, the bottom of the character. Like what is that unfulfilled need?

Starting point is 01:54:27 How, who is she at their most defeated, at her most broken? You wanna understand that and know that and build from there. And with this character, Kimberly was like, I don't know if that's necessary and you're so open and sensitive already, but that moment before I had to shoot my coverage was that moment.

Starting point is 01:54:43 So I realized we always need to have that moment before I had to shoot my coverage was that moment. So I realized we always need to have that moment. And if I don't have it with my acting coach in preparation, I might have it in my trailer on set. Oh, yeah. The breakdown before the breakthrough. Yes. So I love acting. It's so hard though.

Starting point is 01:55:00 It's like kind of, there's something kind of insane about it because it's like really difficult work. And I want to be challenged and this was very challenging. So it's crazy, but I still love it. And it's a wonderful triumph. And I love actors too. I love watching great actors work. So I had so much fun watching these brilliant

Starting point is 01:55:20 comedic actors just improvise and do the, it was so much fun. So I, yeah. And I have a show called Clean Slate that I'm starring in, executive produced, co-created that's slightly autobiographical that we did for Amazon Freebie. Have no idea when that's coming out. So there's, I'm- Be on the lookout. I'm excited about the world if people watch

Starting point is 01:55:38 because you never know what people are gonna watch. But if they do, I just want people to see. I remember when Orange was in the show, I was like, I'm gonna watch it. I'm gonna watch it. I'm gonna watch it. I'm... Be on the lookout. I'm excited about the world if people watch, because you never know if people are gonna watch. But if they do, I just want people to see. I remember when Orange came out, I just remember wanting like my hope

Starting point is 01:55:53 with the casting directors would see the work and understand that I can actually really act and I'm talented and I would get more work from it. That was my hope because I, you know, it was a show about a women's prison with these women of different sizes and shapes and ages. And I thought it was beautiful and brilliant and funny and emotional, but I was like,

Starting point is 01:56:10 I don't think anybody's gonna go for this. That's really how I felt about it. And how wrong was I? I was very wrong. And I'm very happy about that. But you just can't have expectations in show business. You just have to keep working. But you always, at every stage, you have to prove yourself.

Starting point is 01:56:29 You have to prove yourself and you have to show people the range, because people don't, they don't know or they forget. And you always have to show them. I could go on about this, I could go on forever. But I'm sure we're running out of time. This has been such a great conversation with you. We do have our caller who is hoping to get advice from us. So should we, should we bring them up? I'm so long winded. Caller,

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Starting point is 01:59:35 of dog food again. Get 40% off your first order at Sundays, go to sundaysfordogs.com slash viall or use code viall at checkout. Again, that's sundaysfordogs. V-I-A-L-L. How's it going? Good, I'm Sarah, I'm 26, and I'm wondering why men keep ghosting me on dating apps.

Starting point is 01:59:54 How long have you been dating on dating apps? Not very long. So this is like part of a New Year's resolution that I started. I tend to be very shy and can like live in my own little bubble and be very happy doing that. But I wanna be intentional this year about putting myself out there and trying new things.

Starting point is 02:00:12 And so I started this like the middle of January. So like five-ish months. And I would say of the like majority of people that I have matched with, like nine times out of 10, like the conversation just stops mid conversation and I never hear from them again. Okay. Well, the good news is for you,

Starting point is 02:00:29 it's definitely, you're not alone, I would imagine. And the, you know, dating apps can be a great way of meeting people, but every time you swipe right and you don't get a match, it's also like, oh, they don't, you immediately feel like that person doesn't like you. And I always remind people who are on dating apps, just like we always have to forget,

Starting point is 02:00:47 like we always have to remind ourselves like, we just don't know what everyone's going through, you know? Or did they first get on a dating app? Did they get on a dating app because they just gotta have a relationship? Did they, are they taking breaks? And so within all the men that you're matching with, some might just be flaky fuckboys or whatever,

Starting point is 02:01:03 and then you might have a handful of other guys who are like, I don't know about this dating app thing and then they bounce off and they bounce on and things like that. So it's very easy to let dating apps discourage you and you just have to try to set your own boundaries and self-police and things like that. I don't know if Laverne, if you have any questions for me.

Starting point is 02:01:20 It's interesting to hear from a married man his perspective on dating apps. Cause for me, I'm recently single, but I have, and I met my ex, I met my last three boyfriends on dating apps. Before apps, I started my first boyfriend, I met on a dating website for trans women in 2000. So I've been doing internet dating

Starting point is 02:01:44 and dating on apps for over 20 years. So I have a lot of rules and I have a lot of ways to navigate it. I think the most important thing is to not take it personally. I'm a four agreements girl. Do you know the four agreements? Do we know the four agreements?

Starting point is 02:02:01 The four agreements, you can Google them, but be impeccable with your word, always do your best, never assume, and don't take anything personally. And when it comes to dating apps, and these people who don't know you, don't take anything personally. And when the second you said, why are men ghosting me?

Starting point is 02:02:18 I was like, that's what they do. My girlfriends, my experience, and the experiences of my girlfriends is that they disappear One of the hardest things to find even when you get off the apps is a man who's going to be consistent Consistency is if you find a consistent a man who consistent as in he's contacting you consistently He you see him consistently. He doesn't disappear and reappear. Consistent contact, that's huge. And that is rare.

Starting point is 02:02:51 So don't take it personally. It's a numbers game. I think setting, I like to set boundaries around it so I'm not on them all day. Maybe look at in the morning for 30 minutes or our tops at night so you're not on them all day. Guys are talking to, probably talking to a lot of women. They get distracted, whatever, but then there's just,

Starting point is 02:03:13 I don't, I can't get into men's minds and I shouldn't try, but you know, from my perspective, it's just like, they're not serious. A lot of men aren't serious. Most of the time they don't know what they're looking for. They just want to have sex or they don't know what they're looking for, they just wanna have sex, or they don't know what they're looking for, but what I've found is when you're the one, they know,

Starting point is 02:03:32 or if they're interested, they know. And I always like to ask men who are married or in relationships, when did you know that she was the one? It took about 10 months. It took 10 months. Well, kinda, yeah. Who you started out as friends? We were, we've met, we were long distance.

Starting point is 02:03:51 We've told this story. It started as a hookup, you know? She's younger than me. I had a lot of insecurities and reservations about that. She fought hard for the relationship. We're here today because of her strength, not mine. But once I finally came around, she set a lot of boundaries and she finally was like,

Starting point is 02:04:13 peace out, and then I crumbled. And then, I don't know, at that point, yeah, once you moved in, I was like pot committed. I was ready to. So matching is hard, getting on the first date is hard, but once you're in a relationship, it's still tricky and it's still hard. So I think ultimate goal is to get off the app.

Starting point is 02:04:34 So I think at the end of the day, it's a numbers game. So you have to match with a lot of frogs to find a prince. And then the idea is to get off the app. You don't wanna endlessly message. I think depending on your schedule and your location, when I was less busy living in New York, I would, I'm single, I would try to go on these three dates a month,

Starting point is 02:04:55 just to practice sitting across from someone for a coffee or a drink. I think when you meet someone in a dating app, the first date is not a date, it's a screening. Now I think it's good to do a video chat beforehand. I think a video chat beforehand will give you, that'll screen out a lot of people. And think, and really think about,

Starting point is 02:05:15 for me, I had to shift from, I need to make them like me to do I like them. And so it's a screening process for you. Do you connect? Do you click with them? Does this feel right? Does it feel safe? I think safety is like the biggest thing for me.

Starting point is 02:05:31 Like how do they make, do I feel safe with this person? Oh my God, I could go on and on and on. But like, don't be, get really, really clear. And I also think too with dating apps that the photos are really important. They need to look like you, they need to be current, but men are visual. You need to hook them.

Starting point is 02:05:49 My profile was a full on thirst trap before I was, it was, I was in bikinis and lingerie honey. And obviously that attracted a lot of men who thought I just wanted to, you know, have sex. And that wasn't necessarily the case, but you have to get their attention. So make sure that your photos are hooking them in and getting them.

Starting point is 02:06:12 And men in the beginning, that attraction is really important. You don't want it to be just about sex, but you need to get them going. You absolutely have to. So your photos need to look like you, be current, but you need to get them going. And then chat with them. And then ideally one of you should be like,

Starting point is 02:06:31 I think within a week, I find within two weeks, you should be on a coffee date or for drinks. I don't recommend a meeting for dinner or like a big adventure for the first meeting because it's a screening. He may not smell right. He could be crazy. He could be on drugs because it's a screening. He may not smell right, he could be crazy, he could be on drugs.

Starting point is 02:06:46 I had a breakfast, I consented to breakfast because I've been talking to this guy for a long time. On a Sunday morning, he had been up all night doing coke. He did a bump at 10 a.m. before he came into the restaurant. We were on the date and I was like, oh, I was like, what did you do last night? And I was like, I don't judge people who do drugs, but that's not the energy I want in my life.

Starting point is 02:07:09 So I found a way, like my screening, I was like, oh, do you like to party? You know, a lot of guys into trans girls, like they fetishize us and they wanna do drugs and have sex with us. So I, oh, do you like to party? So I don't like make it judgment. Oh, yes or no, whatever.

Starting point is 02:07:25 And then I was just like, oh, did you have fun last night? Yeah, I was up all night and like, yeah. I was like, oh, you do, yeah. And he had done coke. I was like, oh, when was the last time you took a bump? He's like, oh, I just did one before I came in. I was like, eh, gotta go. Alrighty, I gotta go.

Starting point is 02:07:39 I stayed for a little while longer. So just get really clear about what it is you're looking for and what your boundaries are. Get really, really clear. And then I love making a list of all the things that you're looking for in a partner so that you have that clarity. And then once you make that list, make sure you meet all the things on that list

Starting point is 02:08:01 so that like you are, because water seeks its own level. What I found over the years of all my years of dating and being like an old lady now, just an old single lady, 51 years old, is that water seeks its own level. That like at a certain point, because I kept evolving and elevating myself, that like I was vibrating on a frequency

Starting point is 02:08:21 that the fuck boys couldn't hear anymore. So I began to attract different kinds of energy. So I think making sure that your energy and who you are in the world energetically is where you wanna be. Cause you really do attract that you have really clear intentions with the dating and what you want

Starting point is 02:08:43 and you attract what you put out. And I also think that saying you want a relationship in a dating app for women is death. My old Tinder profile said, I, first of all, I said I'm a proud transgender woman in the first sentence. Men don't always read profiles, they usually didn't. So my first sentence when we would match was,

Starting point is 02:09:04 did you read that I'm transgender in my profile? I don't think, I don't know if you're trans, I don't think you're trans, so that's not, it doesn't apply to you. But the rest of the profile said, I have high hopes and no expectations. And I basically said, I'm not looking for anything in particular, but I'm open.

Starting point is 02:09:20 Is that I think if you say you're looking for a relationship, guys feel pressure and it's too much. But I think if I meet the right person, I'm open to a relationship. Saying something like that, if I meet the right person, I think doesn't scare them off as much as saying, oh, I want a relationship. My experience is that scares men off.

Starting point is 02:09:40 We have a man here, maybe he'll disagree. But in my experience, it scares's man off, what do you think? Oh, well, I told him several times, I want to date you. I want to be with you, and he lightly declined. And I would circle back. Exhibit A. I would circle back, but. Exhibit A, and this was like not even on the apps. Yeah, so I think it's really about that.

Starting point is 02:10:05 And then I think once you start matching, the idea is to get offline and then also get, make sure for me, it's a screening. I had a screening process too. A lot of my first questions were the same ones. Different people have like, oh, ask these fun things, but you wanna kind of get a sense of like mine. A lot of mine were trans related,

Starting point is 02:10:24 but like, what are you ultimately after like the trans stuff, what are you looking for? Like, what do you want? And they usually tell you, you know, and I would believe them. A lot of guys look, oh, I'm just looking to hook up. A lot of that. I'm just looking, sometimes they're open,

Starting point is 02:10:42 sometimes, you know, whatever. And so they'll tell you, and then you make some decisions around that. And don't be afraid sometimes they're open, sometimes, you know, whatever. And so they'll tell you, and then you make some decisions around that. And don't be afraid if they're inappropriate, because my experience is that men will be very inappropriate, sexually inappropriate. So don't be afraid to block, unmatch, and delete. Keep yourself safe, and then just try to stay detached

Starting point is 02:11:00 so you don't get frustrated with the whole process. I used to do this, and I see my girlfriends get frustrated with the whole process. I used to do this and I see my girlfriends getting frustrated with like the ways in which men are communicating with them. I think you have to understand most of the men are gonna either ghost or the communication is going to be substandard. And when it's not, that's wonderful.

Starting point is 02:11:20 So don't get frustrated, don't take it personally, stay detached, but engaged. How does that sound? That sounds good. I think like going back to what you said about being like setting your boundaries and having clear intentions, like my personality is one that I know what I want, I'm intentional.

Starting point is 02:11:36 Like I sat down for even one on the apps and was like, what do I want from this? Like, what am I looking to get? What are some boundaries for me? And I think sometimes that intimidates people because I don't want wanna waste my time. And so like after we've chatted for a couple of days, I'll hit them with some hard questions.

Starting point is 02:11:50 And usually I'm like, hey, is it okay if I hit you with some hard questions? Like what kind of hard questions? Okay. I wanna know like politics, religion, intentions, like those kinds of things. And I feel like there's some that like are very clear about that.

Starting point is 02:12:04 And they're like, yeah, okay. Like in the answer and they're fine. And then feel like there's some that like are very clear about that. And they're like, yeah, okay. Like and they answer and they're fine. And then others like, will just be like, no, I'm not gonna talk about that. And I'm like, okay, you're not for me. Like we operate so differently. I would maybe save that for like at least the Zoom date or the screen.

Starting point is 02:12:17 I would save it for in person. I would say, I, yeah. For me, that would be a no. I think that those kind of, I think like, what are you like, what are your intentions? Unfortunately, and I love men, but I also, they frustrate me because unfortunately, what are your intentions?

Starting point is 02:12:36 Most men aren't elevated enough for that language. What are you looking for is more on their level. And maybe you wanna eliminate, you just wanna keep the pool open. I think you're gonna ask a man his intentions. What are you looking for? Yes. Politics, I mean, ideally, I think you figure that out later.

Starting point is 02:12:56 And religion, you figure that out later. I've found myself dating men who are politically on the complete opposite side of the spectrum for me and I've had great experiences with that. Again, setting boundaries and then, making sure I feel safe and whatever. No, are those the hard hitting questions? Intentions, politics, religion,

Starting point is 02:13:19 are there any other hard hitting questions that you hit them with? No, I think that pretty much sums it up and I wouldn't say it's like you know like right off the bat. But I definitely like my perspective is I want to know those things like before I go out because I've had experiences with them in the past and like know what I want and what I don't want. I also have like very little time that I'm dating in. I have very all-consuming hobbies and so I want to be like very protective of that time and so if there's someone that I'm like iffy about or like they're

Starting point is 02:13:49 giving me like one word answers I'm like no thanks like I don't even want to like go down that path and like waste time which probably is on me and maybe that's like yes why I think it is. May I suggest I think that like at the you think that like, you have to make room. You have to make room in your life for the next thing. I think having hobbies and consuming hobbies and friends and having your own life is crucial and it's super important, but you also have to make room. If you want love, if you want a relationship in your life,

Starting point is 02:14:21 you actually have to make room for it. And even in the process of looking, there has to be room. And I think keeping things fun and light in the beginning is, I mean, light and breezy. I feel like you and I are a lot alike. I'm an intersectional feminist, I'm very political, I'm a very complicated woman. I've been told I'm an intimidating woman,

Starting point is 02:14:44 but I've learned because of all that to try to keep it light, to try to keep it fun and casual and laughter. If serious stuff comes up, it comes up, but I try not to be the one to bring it up. You know, and then I've also found too, that sometimes, like with my ex, we just had so much fun,

Starting point is 02:15:02 and my life is so serious and intense, I needed the fun. I would suggest keeping it fun and light and then like seeing if you can get to the in-person thing because any conversation you're having on via text is not real, via Zoom is not real. It's that in-person chemistry, you will know if it's there. And you can't, I found people can be great on the phone, they can be great on Zoom,

Starting point is 02:15:27 they can be even, they're really great via text, right? But the chemistry in person isn't there. So even for me, it's a waste of time getting all that information via text because the chemistry might not be there in person and you need and want the chemistry. And if some of those political and religious things don't fully align but he's open and the chemistry is there,

Starting point is 02:15:51 something maybe can happen. But you have to you have to make room and so there's a I sense a rigidity and like I don't want to waste I don't want to waste my time. I hear you girl. I'm a busy girl too. But you there has to be an openness. We have to give them a little grace until they prove that they're not worthy of it.

Starting point is 02:16:09 Give them a little grace and then they usually will hang themselves. Like with, you don't even have to like ask them, they'll do, they'll say something stupid and you need to block them. You know, that's been my experience. So I give them grace until they show me that I need to block and

Starting point is 02:16:26 delete and I'm mad to move on. How does that make sense? I yeah, I think that that makes total sense. And there's nothing like I am not a light and breezy person. It's just not my personality. Is that like personality catfishing? Like if I like pretend to be this like person that I'm not until I need to be yourself, you need to be yourself. And I you know, I think you absolutely have to be yourself. You're dating men, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 02:16:49 Most straight men, we were talking about this earlier, most straight men have not unlearned misogyny. They have not unlearned, they just haven't. I wish, I think Gen Z and the next alpha, I think they're better. I don't know how old you are. They're better, but it's still a mess. Most of the men we're gonna be dealing with

Starting point is 02:17:06 have not unlearned misogyny and patriarchy. So a woman who is strong, who is smart is going to intimidate most men. Obviously those, you don't wanna date that kind of man, but if there is a side of you that laughs and like enjoys humor with your friends, I would be authentic, you have to be yourself, but like most-

Starting point is 02:17:31 Channel that. I would say channel that, the fun part of you that likes to laugh or with your friends, light and breezy, I'm not saying, don't pretend to be somebody you're not, because you have, because show up and be yourself, and you can kind of work with them, even if they're not that evolved, you may be able to work with it. They might have so many lovely,

Starting point is 02:17:48 amazing qualities. Sometimes we can't be too rigid. I found that like having this rigid list, I'll always be single and opening myself up to different men that I maybe didn't know. If I was, when I, if I kept dating the same men, I would keep getting the same results. So I started dating different kinds of men. I started opening myself up. They had to treat me right. They had to be consistent. They had to be respectful.

Starting point is 02:18:13 I had to be somewhat attracted to them. But sometimes, especially as you're getting started, you need to just practice going on dates. It's a whole thing sitting across from coffee from somebody. So sometimes it's just like, let this be practice, sitting and doing a date. And it's not a waste of time because we might think we know what we want,

Starting point is 02:18:36 but then sometimes when we get out there, I don't know when the last time you dated was, when we get out there and start vibing with people, that might change. Dating's definitely like a learned skill and it's a means to an end. So, I mean everything Laverne said is perfect, absolutely no notes.

Starting point is 02:18:51 The only thing I would just add too is like, I think there's a balance between being your authentic self but also kind of like to Laverne's point, like allowing the people you bring into your life to like maybe open new doors or new ways of looking at life. I mean, meeting Natalie has changed me in a lot of great ways. She's shown me different ways of how I can be

Starting point is 02:19:13 and has opened up different types of emotions and personalities. I'm still the same person as when I met Natalie. But we contain multitudes. But she's elevated. All of us contain multitudes. And yeah, I think really communicating with men, do you have a lot of male friends?

Starting point is 02:19:30 No, not really. And most of my female friends are married, so. Oh God. There's information there though, like how did they meet them, getting a sense from, it's always research with married people talking about how it happened, what worked for them, what didn't.

Starting point is 02:19:47 And just like doing research on men. Yeah, and I would say geographically where I live, I live in the part of the country where most women are married by 25 with two kids and have their partner in high school. The dating scene is very dismal in general, especially at 26. When the dating pool is smaller, that is so much trickier.

Starting point is 02:20:07 You may want to try, I don't know, there may be bigger cities closer by, and if there's a long distance situation, I'm living in New York and LA, there's just, there's so many more options. But if there's a bigger city close by, like change your range a little bit, I don't know how, if you can travel, if he can travel to you, if there's a bigger city close by, like change your range a little bit. I don't know how you can travel,

Starting point is 02:20:26 if he can travel to you, if it's not too far, I would open myself up to maybe something that might be long distance, I do, you know, long distance is not ideal, but if the dating pool is small, then open it up for yourself. And if they're worth it, you'll figure it out. And that's what we did.

Starting point is 02:20:43 She was across the country. You want as many options as possible and you wanna expand them. It needs to be realistic. So, you know, it may be expand beyond the city you live in in terms of the search, you can do all that on the apps and be open to, you know, seeing if you can travel, you know, do a weekend trip somewhere.

Starting point is 02:21:05 Ideally, he should be coming to you though. I don't. I'm a feminist, but I do have, I guess, I've internalized some patriarchal things where I, you know, I like a door open, I like a chair pulled out. And I like a man traveling to me. Yeah, girl, no. I'm not traveling for training. The lifestyle that I live is very much like, it makes it hard for me to travel. And so they would have to travel to me, which I know like most people don't want, but.

Starting point is 02:21:32 Yeah, well cross that bridge when you get there. Girl, there are men willing to do it. When they want it, they will, and that's what you want. Every, like you want a man who is so excited to see you that he will move heaven and earth to get there. And he's excited to meet you that he will make it happen. And when a man is really into you, and this is what you want,

Starting point is 02:21:54 when a man is really into you, he will make it work. And he won't ghost and he will be consistent. And that's the biggest thing I've learned. When they're disappearing, when they're ghosting, he's not that into you. To quote that unfortunate movie and that line from Sex and the City, he's not that into you. When they are, in my experience, they will show it and they will keep showing up when they're into you. And until you feel that, you keep looking.

Starting point is 02:22:27 And ideally you get a little roster of men, a few that you're dating until one emerges from the pack that is worthy of all the beautiful gifts that you have to offer. The only thing I would just add to that is like I always say, assuming you're looking for a monogamous relationship, you're only looking for one. And rejection is not a bad thing always, it's clarity.

Starting point is 02:22:50 And don't get discouraged by a bunch of men that you don't know. They're just strangers. And just because you read their bio and you like a couple pictures, don't let a bunch of strangers that you would end up not liking yourself had you got to know them make you feel discouraged because they're inconsistent, they're flaky, they're ghosting and things like that. So, and that's just kind of just knowing before you go into these apps, the kind of territory that kind of live right up.

Starting point is 02:23:13 They're gonna ghost, they're gonna disappear. Most of them are gonna do that. Just don't let it bother you. Remember, yeah, it's not personal. And remember that you are a gift, that you are a gift and what an honor it would be for them to actually get to meet you in person and to have your time. what an honor it would be for them to actually get to meet you in person and to have your time.

Starting point is 02:23:27 What an honor for them. Not, and it's not about being egotistical or arrogant, but it's just a quiet knowing of your majesty and your power, just knowing it for yourself and that energy, just making sure that you live in that energy. It's not about being arrogant, but living in the energy of your majesty.

Starting point is 02:23:48 That makes sense. I do wonder if sometimes I am like, maybe dragging conversations on like more than I should, because I don't wanna be the one that like doesn't respond and gives off the impression like I'm not interested, but also like quite frankly, some of these people are just boring and like can't hold a conversation. And like at that point, is it wrong interested, but also quite frankly, some of these people are just boring and can't hold a conversation.

Starting point is 02:24:06 And at that point, is it wrong of me to just be like, hey, this isn't for me, or should I be the one that's ghosting? This is via text, right? This is via text. Again, I think it's about getting off the apps, getting off text as soon as possible and meeting in person whenever possible,

Starting point is 02:24:22 within a week or within two weeks. I don't think you should be texting. And then I think you don't wanna text too much in those first two weeks. It's like those texts should be like, oh, how did you, what did you do? Like it's not, the getting to know you is in person. It's your pen pals if you're doing too much,

Starting point is 02:24:37 getting to know you via text in my experience. I literally, there was a dude I met on chat in 2006 and we texted for years and never met, I literally, there was a dude I met on chat in 2006, and we texted for years and never met. Literally like two months ago, he texted me. We've never met and we never will. Like literally there are men who just will never wanna meet you, but they'll text you and they'll pin pal with you.

Starting point is 02:25:03 And it sounds like you really don't have time for that. And I don't have time for that either. So, oh, and the great way to get out of it. Oh my God, it's, oh, I'm heading into work right now. I'm working on a project I'll talk to you later. I can't wait to continue this conversation, maybe in person. Just so instead of like those,

Starting point is 02:25:21 cause sometimes we have those texts conversations that go on all day, set limits. There's like no clear stopping point. Yeah, that's a problem. But like, that person wants to be the one that doesn't respond. But like, I feel like if I don't respond, then they're gonna take that in like the wrong way.

Starting point is 02:25:35 But oftentimes like, I don't wanna text this person all day. Like I don't, I have what to do. We can't read minds. That's the thing though. We can't read minds. If they take it the wrong way, then maybe that's information that will tell you that they're not your person.

Starting point is 02:25:45 You can be polite and direct at the same time. And if you are polite and direct and that somehow rubs them the wrong way, then you're getting information that tells you something. But then sometimes communication via text too can be confusing. That like mixed messages, like we don't, that's why texting, and my friend of mine says

Starting point is 02:26:00 texting is the lowest form of communication. We read it in our emotion. We may be projecting, we don't really even fully know sometimes. I think setting some boundaries, I'm going to sleep, because sometimes those texts, a conversation that started the day before and you're continuing the next day,

Starting point is 02:26:16 I think setting some limits around the texting, particularly in the beginning, because you don't know him, is really important. And then starting over the next day. Starting a new conversation, not continuing, you know. Yeah, this was so much fun. I'm gonna go hang out with my friends. This is so much fun and have a life

Starting point is 02:26:33 and let him know you have a life and go and live it. Oh my God, I wanna be present. No, I'm saying I'm gonna go hang out with my friends. This is so much fun. Oh, I'm going in to do this, whatever it is. Don't do that. Like have like finite, like fun, oh, I'm going in to do this, whatever it is, don't do that. Like have like finite, like beginning, middle, and end of texts and don't do too much of it.

Starting point is 02:26:51 Ultimately, it's a getting to know you, but it's really about getting my ex before this one was so intent on like, let's meet for drinks. He was like, he's a, he's a, he's, real estate, he's ABC, he's always be closing. So he was just very much in like, I'd love to meet you for a drink. And the first, I was like, he's a real estate, he's ABC, he's always be closing. So he was just very much in like, I'd love to meet you for a drink. And the first, I was like, chill out.

Starting point is 02:27:09 But that's what you want, you wanna get off the apps. And eventually, it was like two weeks and I met him. And so that's what you want, the communication of like, oh, how's your day? Blah, blah, blah. And he was dating a lot of, talking to a lot of women until he met me and he realized, you know. Yeah, duh.

Starting point is 02:27:28 But you wanna get off the app, so you don't wanna have too much, because it's a fantasy until you're in person. That's, endless texting is the waste of time. It really is. It's not real until you're in person with them. And so whatever communication you have via text, I've had the, I thought I was vibing with people

Starting point is 02:27:49 and with the endless texting for weeks, for months. And I thought, oh my God, we're connecting. And there was just nothing in person or we never even met. So it's not real until you're in person. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. And then I'm curious what your opinions are on like, my kind of MO has been, I like am wanting a partner who like wants to lead and lead a family

Starting point is 02:28:13 and like lead a relationship. But then I find myself wanting to take charge when they're not doing what I want. And it's hard for me to be like, actually no, like maybe I should let them like. Do you really want a partner to lead though? Like, what does that mean, a partner who leads? What does that mean?

Starting point is 02:28:27 I think in my head, at least in this fantasy world I've made up, someone that is not afraid to take charge and knows what they want and will go get it versus someone that wants someone else to mentor their life. I feel like I've had partners in the past that are very much okay with me just telling them what to do all the time. And like I'm the interesting thing about them. Like there's nothing else of, there's nothing else there for them to work with.

Starting point is 02:28:51 And like they don't have their own goals and ambition. And so I'm seeking someone that has that and like isn't afraid to kind of go out and get what they want from the world. So a little bit of talking to you, it sounds like you are someone who like, you have your hobbies, you seem very self-assured, you know what they want from the world. So a little bit of talking to you, it sounds like you are someone who you have your hobbies, you seem very self-assured, you know what you want, and so I think just in nature,

Starting point is 02:29:10 you're going to probably attract a lot of men who don't, because they're gonna find that very attractive in you. So that's a boundary that you're gonna have to set for yourself in terms of what am I actually looking for and hold yourself accountable, not to like, you know, as you get to know these men, they will reveal themselves as more, you know,

Starting point is 02:29:30 someone who has direction, you know, knows what they want, have ambition, or, you know, and these are types of questions you'll figure out pretty quickly, even in tax free on the first couple dates of like, you know, what they're looking for. And if it's, if you're asking a handful of questions, a lot, and a lot of it's like, yeah, well, you know, we'll see, I don, you know, what they're looking for. And if it's all, if you're asking a handful of questions, a lot, and a lot of it's like, yeah, well, you know, we'll see, I don't really know,

Starting point is 02:29:48 I'm figuring this out, then that's your answer, you know? And then when they tell you who they are, you know, believe them. But yeah, that's just something I think you need to be aware about yourself and then have those boundaries to hold yourself accountable, not to try to change them and try to fix them and all those things that we're all kind of prone to do.

Starting point is 02:30:05 And I think too, I hate generalizing, but I've been doing that a lot. My experience with men as a really ambitious, driven, I think smart woman is that men who are also ambitious, driven, smart and strong don't want a woman who is. That is, and it's, it, that was rough. I mean, I don't know if that'll change, but that's been my, it gagged me a little bit, honestly.

Starting point is 02:30:35 I was just, I, and I would see, I remember this guy I met on a dating app and then we like immediately friend zoned it. We were immediately in a friend zone. And then he, and then I saw this woman, he was dating, he was like blonde and had just come here from Russia and barely spoke English and was kind of just very beautiful.

Starting point is 02:30:55 And I was just like, okay. And I just, over the years, I had gotten a lot of messages from ambitious men, smart men, smart men, smart-ish men, because if you're smarter than them, that's been a problem too, that they don't want, a lot of men don't want women who are smarter than them, who are more ambitious than them, who are driven.

Starting point is 02:31:19 Unfortunately, that is, a lot of men have an unlearned patriarchy. So a man who is a little bit more open to you taking the lead, and it sounds like you kind of have that tendency anyway. It sounds like the balance is that like he has to have some initiative and take some initiative sometimes, but it sounds like you just don't want him to be lazy

Starting point is 02:31:43 and unambitious. You want him to be lazy and unambitious. You want him to have some ambition, but I think you probably actually, because you know how you want things, you probably do want to take the lead. You do want to, I mean, maybe I don't want to tell you who you are and be wrong, but talk to me. So you want a guy who participates.

Starting point is 02:32:01 Yeah, I want him to be an active participant. Like I, especially in the early stages of dating, I don't want to be the one like participant. Like I, especially in the early stages of dating, I don't want to be the one like setting up all the like dates for the future and like planning what we do and kind of setting the course of that. In the beginning, absolutely not. That don't do that.

Starting point is 02:32:16 In the beginning, at least, I mean, it's all very patriarchal and old school, but I do think that he should be setting up the dates. He should be, sometimes I'll like, you know, for my convenience, like when I was in New York, I would set up the date like within like a block and a half of where I lived. So I, cause I got stood up a lot as a trans woman, whatever, and I wouldn't leave my house till they were there. So sometimes I would like be like, meet me in a certain vicinity, but it's good after that. But again, the first date isn't a date, it's a screening.

Starting point is 02:32:47 After that, he should be taking initiative. He should be like, when do I wanna see you again? They should be booking the next date. Those things, because it just is an indication of interest. It's an indication of like, I wanna get to know this woman and the right one will do that work. And it's not work because he's honored and he's excited to do that work because you're worth it.

Starting point is 02:33:12 And you, he can't wait to see you again. God, I sound like this rules girl, but I'm not. So then for the first to like get off the apps and get out of that kind of like texting, like dead pole of whatever, like where you get sucked into it. It's okay for me to kind of initiate that in order to get out of that stage and then expect them to initiate future dates.

Starting point is 02:33:36 Yeah, I would say so. And see where they are. See where they are with it. Oh, if it feels right, we should be, or we should maybe start with a video chat. These days, because that's another good pre-screen, because you can screen out a lot of people in terms of wasting time and having to leave your house. A pre-screen with video chatting, I think is a good idea.

Starting point is 02:33:57 So I would wish you video chat. And like after a few conversations, we should video chat and see if we click. I would start there and I wouldn't mind suggesting that. And then I think you taking some initiative and see what happens in the beginning because sometimes they need to be pushed along a little bit, but after that, then they need to like engage

Starting point is 02:34:22 and participate. How does that sound to you guys? What do you guys think about that? No notes. 100%, I agree, yeah. Got this. All right. All right.

Starting point is 02:34:31 I can totally do that. All right. And have fun, this should be fun. More than anything, have fun, yes. Dating, the best thing about dating, even when it goes wrong, is you have great stories. And honey, I've had, I have some great stories because some stuff is gone left.

Starting point is 02:34:50 But they're great stories later on, so have fun. Yeah, it's a means to end, try to have some fun. There'll be highs and lows, but, and take breaks when you need to take breaks. That's always really important because you can definitely get fatigued. But get back on and you'll be good. And then definitely let us know how it's going.

Starting point is 02:35:05 We'll follow up with you in a couple months and see if you've been able to implement any of Laverne's and our ideas and we'll see how it's going. Yeah, I'll be sure to let you know how it goes. I'm pretty busy in the summer and so I don't expect that I'll be doing much dating in the summer.

Starting point is 02:35:19 However you do it. Make the time. Make the time. All right. Make the time. All right, take care. Love it. All right, have a good rest of your day. You too, bye bye. Laverne, make the time. All right. Make the time. All right, take care. Love it. All right, have a good rest of your day.

Starting point is 02:35:26 You too, bye bye. You too. Leveren, this has been so much fun. Yeah. We appreciate the time. You're just a wonderful, beautiful person. I know so many people listening to this episode, even just listening to you talk with my wife

Starting point is 02:35:39 and just how you guys connected. I'm sure we'll talk this afternoon just about just all the kind of just beautiful inspiring things that you talked about and it's just been a real pleasure so thank you. What I love about my podcast is I've learned so much from my guest and how wonderful it is to get to process that with your partner.

Starting point is 02:36:02 That's like really cool. That's a gift. I wanna say from one survivor to another, I'm very proud of you. to get to process that with your partner. That's like really cool. That's a gift. I wanna say from one survivor to another, I'm very proud of you. Thank you, I'm proud of you. Thank you so much for coming. We are survivors in this rain situation, girl.

Starting point is 02:36:15 Woo! I'm like, I mean, podcasting, yes. Yes. Congratulations to both of you. Thank you. Thank you. You had to be superficial, but what? Everyone's in a while. If you're ever in LA, let us know.

Starting point is 02:36:31 We'd love to take you out. Thank you guys for listening. Thank you again for Laverne and her time. Don't forget to send those questions at asknick at TheValFiles.com for all things texting office hours. Ask Nick. We'll see you back on Monday.

Starting point is 02:36:43 See you then. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

The Viall Files - E749 GD w/ Laverne Cox + Honeymoon Pt 2, Golden Bachelorette, Baby Reindeer & Sandoval Redemption Attempt

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