The Viall Files - E753 Ask Nick - Missionary Parents

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

Welcome back to another episode of The Viall Files: Ask Nick Edition! Dr Orna Guralnik, from the hit show Couples Therapy, joins us to talk about the new season and her take on therapy in general. Then we get to our callers…  Our first caller called in because she and her husband disagree on the gender for their next embryo transfer. Her husband wants to guarantee a boy, but she is persistent in leaving it a surprise. Our second caller is nervous because her long-term boyfriend is meeting her Christian missionary parents for the first time. Our caller’s faith is still important to her, but she doesn’t want to disappoint her parents due to her boyfriend’s lack of religion. Our final caller is wondering how to tell her parents that she doesn’t want to have kids and that her husband is getting a vasectomy. She already feels bad about moving to another country, and previous attempts have not ended well. Season 4 of COUPLES THERAPY premieres May 31 on Paramount+ with SHOWTIME. “There’s no tougher lesson for a parent, than their own kids demonstrating the right behavior when they’re not” Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: https://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice, send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line!  To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Altoids - Find Altoids in the check-out aisle. Grab your tin today!  Huggies - Learn more at https://www.Huggies.com  BetterHelp - Take a moment. Visit https://www.BetterHelp.com/VIALL today to get 10% off your first month. Sporting Smiles - You can save 10% on all orders with promo code: VIALL10 when you go to https://www.SportingSmiles.com   Framebridge - Visit https://www.Framebridge.com or a local Framebridge store to get started and custom frame just about anything! Béis - Béis is offering our listeners 15% off your first purchase by visiting https://www.BeisTravel.com/VIALL  Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @justinkaphillips @leahgsilberstein @alison.vandam @dereklanerussell

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with a training pant that is ultra soft and breathable to help protect sensitive skin through potty training. Learn more at huggies.com. Once again, head to huggies.com to learn more. You're crazy. You're crazy. What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files Ask Nick edition. I am your host Nick joined by the household.

We got sweet, sweet boy Justin. We got Scooter aka Leia in the house. And we have a very, very, very exciting special guest for this intro of Ask Nick. The one and only Dr. Orna Guralnik from the hit series, Couples Therapy on Showtime. It's such a fascinating show. We are so excited to have Dr. Orna with us

because obviously you guys know we talk so much about therapy, specifically couples therapy on fascinating show. We were so excited to have Dr. Orna with us because obviously you guys know we talk so much about therapy, specifically couples therapy on this show. I'm always advocating it for all the people listening and calling in and I thought it would be a great conversation to have a Dr. Orna, just some of the idiosyncrasies of couples therapy. Is it always a good thing? Are there reasons maybe not to get into it?

What are some red flags in terms of how to approach therapy? I know we often have a lot of listeners who wish their partners would get into couples therapy with them. What's the best approach to try to convey that message? But thank you Dr. Arna for joining us. Again, we have so many questions, but once again, thank you. I appreciate you being here. Hello Nick and thank you for inviting me I think to start things off couples therapy the show What a fascinating show. How did this all come to be and how did you get involved with the project? Wow, that's

some time ago The creators of the show Josh Kriegman and Lee Steinberg, apparently they were dreaming up this idea of how to portray couples work on docks for a while. Seemed like an impossible feat of something that's usually the most confidential and private and behind the kind of firewall. How would we ever be able to get in there and portray something real?

And they started interviewing, they put together this concept and figured out how to do it in a way that would be maybe less intrusive. And they started interviewing people. And I'm part of a psychoanalytic institute in New York, NYU postdoc, and they reached me through the institute. Somehow people sent them in my direction.

I'm a teacher there, professor there. And I started talking to them and I thought, you know, I have a long ago background in film, I studied film. And I thought, well, I'd be happy to consult to them. And basically, make sure they don't like make another one of those shows that basically portrays therapists as like horrible people. Sure. Yeah. So I talked to them about that from the position of maybe consulting, but very soon into our conversations about it, we really hit it off. like as people, they struck me as like having like a kind of radical concept if they can really pull it off and something about it seemed quite exciting and not necessarily scary. And they gradually like, I don't know, we really hit it off and they convinced me

to actually try to be the therapist myself, which originally seemed like a ludicrous idea. But I don't know, from one thing to the next, we sat down with like a test couple and cameras in the room. And it turned out that, okay, you can do it in front of cameras. It actually works. I can do my thing. I used to joke with them at the time

that I feel like I'm like a baker, that you give me some dough and butter and water and I can make bread. I just know how to do it. Doesn't matter if there's a camera there. Sure. And that's how it all started. That's fascinating.

I am curious because I didn't even know a concept like this was possible, like you said, just through the whole kind of confidentiality of therapy. And obviously, how is someone in your profession able to kind of circumvent the HIPAA laws I suppose when it comes to having these I guess clients on the show. And then I guess the second part of that question is how did you guys go about maintaining the authenticity of these conversations because, you know, once you put a camera on someone, they change their behavior. It can be there's the risk of performative aspects or the draw and excitement of being on TV. So how did you guys kind of go about

doing that? Yeah, these are two big questions. In terms of like the ethics of it, obviously, there's a big question there and I was very concerned about it and whoever heard about this possible show was also very concerned. People warned me, you know, you're gonna ruin your career. It's like, I mean, generally our career is based on like

very, very strict prohibitions around confidentiality. I mean, what patients say to me in my office is like, I would never talk to anyone about. But the way we address that was basically head on. It is not therapy, it's like therapy. Okay. And people that sign up to get the kind, to do the kind of work with me that we're doing, in advance, they give up any semblance of confidentiality.

It's a different thing. Like the frame of the work is not based on confidentiality. I mean, there are other ways that the work is framed. There's like a huge amount of like respect for all the participants and a kind of commitment to their well-being and to preserving their dignity, which never, never wavers. But it's not about confidentiality, it's something else. Well, that makes sense, yeah. I guess naming it and saying,

hey, this is, it might look like therapy, it might resemble it, they might even get the same benefits from it, but it's not because so much of therapy is the privacy element of it. Exactly, exactly. Well, that makes a lot of sense. And then to your second question in terms of like, how do things change when you put a camera in the room?

I actually would be interested in hearing what you think about it like in this context, like when you put a mic in a recording device, like how do things change? But I found surprising things. I mean, that's from the very first time we started experimenting with this. I found that things do change when you put like, you know, a camera and a mic

in front of people, but change, not the way you'd expect. It's not like people get more performative in a certain way. Once they get through the hump of like, just getting used to the situation, people in a bizarre way get more real. There's like a certain kind of demand that the camera puts in front of the person to show up and show up in their most authentic self and to do the real work and not avoid things

and not, you know, beat around the bush, but like just show up because time is limited and the cameras are there, and it's being documented, and are you going to do the work or not? That's how I felt and that's ultimately how the participants felt. Do you find that here? Here it's a little different. My background, how I even got the show or how I ended

up in LA is I ended up on reality TV. Interesting. So that's in itself almost like a very loose documentary. You know, it's still it's more entertainment than, than it kind of is. Yeah, it kind of is. Yeah. But entertainment, but the, Yeah. But entertainment. But you're taking, before I was on reality TV, I wasn't a head of sales job, I lived in the Midwest and I was just your typical normal guy. And I've been around a lot of other people who've gone from just the normal aspect thrust into a camera. And it's kind of 50-50 in terms of people's ability to be their authentic self. You know, people knew me on that show.

For better or worse, they trusted I was my authentic self at times that was for the worst or for the better. But did people say to you, for example, oh, you're so different on TV? Or do they say, oh, I recognize you. That's you. Yeah. The people who knew me at times, yeah. Because there's also the, on our side of things,

things can get edited, you know, they're filming. Right. For every, say, 40 hours they film, they're airing 90 minutes, right? So there's storytelling and things like that. But just in terms of, you know, a lot of people I met there or the people I got to know over time,

I could tell some people were authentic and could be themselves and some people edited themselves. They wanted to make sure they didn't say anything too confrontational or they wanted to be liked. They went in hoping people are gonna watch this and if nothing else, I hope people agree with me. You think about a couples therapy element, you know, there, it could be considered adversarial, even between the couples whose side, or do they agree with me? Do people see my side? You know, and things like that.

So it is kind of interesting to see how I think the subjects would interact. I think maybe it had to do also with the choice of couples. I think whoever was casting, they always chose couples that really wanted the work, that really needed help. That makes a lot of sense. More than wanting to be liked, they wanted their relationship to get better. Were you involved in the casting process?

No. Okay, that's interesting. I would imagine that the people in casting have casted other shows and probably have a good sense of who is there for the therapy or the like therapy atmosphere or who is there for TV or being performed. That's very interesting. In terms of the therapy work that you do,

are you primarily a couples therapist? Is that what you specialize in or is it all kind of therapy that you get into? By profession, I'm a psychologist and a psychoanalyst. Okay. And at least half of my practice, I mean, it used to be more, it used to be like probably two thirds of my practice

was individual patients, and then a third was couples. I mean, now since I'm doing this show, I mean, I get a lot of requests to see couples, so probably it's half-half. Okay. In terms of couples therapy, would you say that couples therapy is always beneficial for a couple?

And by I guess I mean beneficial, I mean, will it always allow them to get to a place whether that's staying together or separating, is there, maybe the better way of framing that question, is there ever a situation where couples therapy could be the wrong decision for a couple? It's a really good question. First of all, I don't think couples therapy is always the best thing. I know some people think that, oh, you should always be in couples therapy or the moment you find someone you like, you should immediately get into couples therapy just to prevent things. Um, I think couples therapy is good.

It works well within a certain kind of window. And the window is, I don't think there's much reason to get into couples therapy before problems start brewing. It's like, you know, you, I mean, life is life and you got to wait for what's going to show up. You can't like guarantee everything and safeguard everything and just like make sure nothing bad happens. So when a couple starts developing a certain kind of pattern that they see, they can't get out of themselves and it feels like, oh, this is getting too stuck in something.

That's a good time to start thinking about couples therapy. And then there could be a time when it's too late. If people wait too long and they're just like, all goodwill has left and there's too much history that has accumulated and it's just impossible for people to change, I think it's too late then. And I sometimes see couples where they have a wish, but it's too late. Yeah.

So it's, it's a wide window, but it's a window and then not everyone can use therapy. Therapy is a particular kind of way of thinking and way of being that is both quite verbal and it requires a certain kind of interest in self-reflection and wanting to change and willingness to tolerate discomfort. Not everyone is built that way. Some people affect change in other ways. Some people like, I don't know, they go like the Buddhist or the yoga way and that's their way of pushing change or and not everyone wants to change kind of surprisingly. That's not that surprising. Yeah. To me. Yeah. I agree with you, but I just, I've noticed too many people unwilling to, unwilling to change. How can a couple get the most out of therapy?

Great question. First of all, I think each of the couple has to, sort of similar to what we were just saying, have to like really get clear with themselves that if they're going into therapy, they're going to want to change. As hard as it's going to be. Every couple to some degree in a way drags their partner into my office, basically telling

me change my partner. Every couple. Every? Really? Yes. Yes. It's not, I mean, no matter what people say, they don't come in there. They don't come into my office and say, help me change.

I mentioned before we started recording Natalie, we haven't been in it in a while, but we've done couples therapy. And the reason we got into it is like, we felt a bit of a disconnect in terms of communication. And it was right after we got engaged. And there was a proactive element to it. You know, I don't think we weren't like at the,

we weren't at the verge of breaking up. We were actually, it was a very happy time, but I think given elements of our relationship, we were, because I advocated for it, it was like, let's see if we can get a benefit from it. So we both went in kind of like, how can we improve our communication? How can we become more connected as a couple? There wasn't a desire for us to necessarily change either of us as individuals. And that's how we approached it. But I don't know if we're maybe the average couple. Right. That might be, you might be more enlightened than the average couple, or maybe you've done enough work,

each of you on your own to know that. Yeah, we do individual. Yeah, and it might've been like a hidden wish that you were not exactly aware of. I mean, also a possibility, but anyhow, I think the best way to start couples therapy is to assume that you're gonna have to do a lot of the work yourself, not your partner.

And to look at it as an adventure or kind of an opportunity to grow, to change. It's not easy. It's never easy to change. As we said earlier, people don't like changing. But it's kind of amazing when you change, when you grow, when you learn something new. It's like when you read a new book and you learn something new about the world, it's exciting. Yeah. So that's the approach. So for all the people who have called in or listened to the show, and again, a lot of

women and it's a lot, you know, and they may call in a problem and there's a disconnect and I'll always say, well, have you explored couples therapy? Are you into that? And nine times out of 10, it's like, well, I would like to, but I asked my partner and they're like either, it's anything from absolutely not to, you know, maybe someday, but that someday never comes.

And it's a lot of putting it off. In those scenarios, are you saying, is that person, is their partner saying ultimately, I'm not interested or I don't want to change? Or is there maybe just a general fear of like what therapy is? Like how can someone determine whether that's their partner saying, listen, I have no interest in changing, you know, you can accept me for who I am or we can break up? Or is there something else where they just have to get over that hump or that fear of therapy and how can someone determine the difference?

Good questions and yeah, I'm familiar with that. I have to say that, first of all, from my practice, it's not always the men that are reluctant. Sometimes the women are reluctant. There's one of the partner that's gonna be more anxious. Mostly female audience, so that's. Yeah, so that's what you hear. But it's, I mean, women can be quite defensive and anxious

and not wanna get into things too. But often one of the partners will be more anxious or defensive and kind of reluctant to get into therapy. will be more anxious or defensive and kind of reluctant to get into therapy. Um, and, you know, so, so to some degree, one is pulling the other to the therapist's office and the task of the therapist then is to meet the two people where they are and make sure it's not that the therapy itself doesn't have that quality that like someone is being kind of, you know, like in school, like forced to like show up to class and do homework, but that they feel like they're met and that the therapy is doing something for them too.

Because if it doesn't feel that way, it's not going to work. It's not. So I think the first task is like, just make some kind of concession and agreement to just give it a try. And you know, you can barter with your partner. You can say, look, I'll come with me to therapy. I'll go to, I don't know, hike Machu Picchu with you. I don't know. Like I'll let's let's barter here.

Just give it a try. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And then it's the therapist's responsibility to make sure it's a decent experience. So it's really just kind of get in there. Getting them in the door. Is the hardest part. Yeah.

Okay, all right. How, I feel like, well at least I always say, a big part of therapy is finding the right therapist. How can someone know, is it an instinctual feeling? Because not every mechanics made equal, not every doctor's made equal. What is a sign of a good therapist? And what is a sign of a therapist

who might not be able to help you out? Because what's kind of scary about therapy is like, first of all, whether it's individual therapy or couples therapy There's a bit of a hurdle of getting in and like you said getting in the doors a big part of the battle But then it's just like well I want to find a good one because if you find a bad one then that might be the the one time It's like you go through all this effort to get your partner in a couple's therapy and then you find a couple's therapist And it's a it's that bad experience and it bombs and it's like never fucking again I'm never never doing that again so what

how can someone try to avoid that scenario? There are many ways I have lots of thoughts in response to that. One is that it's not one size fits all there are different types of therapists, different personalities, and not everyone fits everyone. It's like any human interaction. I mean, with some bosses you work better, with some teammates you work better, some partners you're better. You have to try it out and see if it's a good fit.

Some therapists, like I come from like a psychoanalytic tradition. So I do work that is very, you know, driven towards listening for unconscious features and I go into like depth psychology and like looking into the past and not everyone is into that. Some people prefer much more like behavioral goal oriented

kind of work and I would probably not be the right therapist for them. So you have to like, first of all, see that the modality of the therapist is the kind of modality that fits your way of thinking and approaching problems in the world. I think training is really important. I think looking at the therapist's training, like how much schooling have they had? It really matters. And then, you know, does the therapist have like sensitivity to particular issues? I mean, do you want someone who's like more friendly towards queer issues or sensitive to race issues or class issues? Or you have to think about a lot of different

dimensions. Yeah, do your homework. That's very interesting. Yeah, and actually let me say one more thing and then sit with a therapist and see if you feel like you can have a genuine exchange. Yeah. If something's bothering you, can you say it? If the therapist says something that is troubling to you, can you say it to them and how do they take it? Yeah, because if you can't be honest.

Right, then you're not in the right place. What's the point? Yeah. I'm assuming you can pick up on that pretty quickly. If people are honest? Yeah. Like how do you address that? If you get a couple and one person seems to be embracing it and the other person is more resistant, how as a therapist do you try to navigate that? Well, that's, I mean, that's actually a huge part of the whole training as a psychoanalyst is like working with defenses when people are not honest. I mean, unless they're like psychopathic, just some just regular, not honest. They're defending against something and they need those defenses. So you kind of sit by the defense and you try to understand what is

this person protecting and respect the defense and work with it. I mean, that's the, that's part of what I like about the work. It's you listen to the defense and you find a way to learn about the person through their defense. It's part of who the person is. Having done this for so long, I think there's a I forget their names But it's a very I don't know if I think the therapists or doctors or researchers But it's a it's an older couple who kind of famously did a study way back when you might be familiar with Godman's. Yes Yes And I think you know with like 98 percent or some high point of accuracy, they can observe a couple communicating and interacting

and determine whether that relationship will last. Do you subscribe to their? To the Gottman? I haven't studied their method, but I read their work and I think they've done like great work. They talk about the four horsemen. I think the main thing that they've contributed to the field is they put like a huge emphasis

on the destructiveness of contempt. Yeah, the eye rolling. All the ways that we know how to express contempt, like the passive aggressive and aggressive ways, but it's been a real contribution, like highlighting how destructive that is. But I guess to that end, the reason I wanted to bring it up

is you must, having experienced so many couples, you must be able to have a pretty quick opinion about a couple's potential. Is that accurate or do you try to reserve judgment? It's more complicated than that. I'm by nature, I'm kind of an idealist and a romantic and I see possibilities where other people might not. Now, sometimes it's kind of ridiculous,

but that is my general inclination is a couple walks in and I'm usually kind of infatuated with their couplehood and I see the potential there and I know what they need. If just this, if just that, I can see where they can go. And I work with that and I mean, sometimes it doesn't, they don't follow along with my vision for them. But I don't, it's not, it's rare that a couple comes in and I'm like, oh, forget it, these guys are toast. The only time I feel that way is when there's like, indeed like so much contempt and mutual abuse in the room

that I see if they're interested in like, getting out of that addictive cycle, but if they're not desperate to get out of the temptation of mutual abuse then forget it. It sounds like it really comes down to the desire to change. If you have the true desire you can go very far. Very far. Yeah that's interesting. We talk a lot about infidelity on this show. We deal with a lot of stories about infidelity. It's obviously a very triggering topic, especially for those. To some.

To some. And who is, what's her name? Esther Perrell. Thank you. Esther Perrell has a very interesting TED talk about infidelity and kind, do you, and obviously you're very familiar with what she's talked about.

Yeah, I love her work. She's great. Yeah, it love her work. She's great. It's really fascinating just to the misconceptions, I guess, of infidelity. Or, and the biggest one is a couple's ability to overcome it. And then, you know, the fears and things that go into it. But how do you deal with infidelity?

What are some, you know, for couples who are maybe facing it right now, who are listening, you know, for couples who are maybe facing it right now, who are listening, what advice would you give to someone who maybe recently discovered their partner has been unfaithful? You know, as someone who's dealt with that myself, you know, there's always, there's this kind of mental, like, gymnastics you kind of do where, first of all,

it's just like, you want to believe your partner, you know, and you don't, you just found out this happened. You want to even think that you can forgive them. And so I think the biggest struggle, especially for the optimistic person, the person who still remains hopeful about the relationship, even after finding out there was infidelity, how can that person figure out whether their, their hope is either hurting them or helping them? Because I guess I think some people could be hopeful for all the wrong

reasons and maybe not being able to see that their partner isn't safe for them to be with. Or how can they determine that their partner truly is contrite and wants to change? Or do you have any strong views or opinions on infidelity in general? Yeah, we have to like pull back. Yeah, I'm asking too many questions. That's like a very, very big topic. Yeah. Right. That in a way touches on everything. But if you pull back, if you zoom out a little bit and you just think about the concept of fidelity, I mean, it means different things for different people.

Right? They're different. I mean, couples have in a way contracts between them. Nuts. I mean, couples have, in a way, contracts between them. Nuts. I mean, they have, they might get married. It could be verbal, nonverbal, but yeah. But they have a certain kind of contract. And for some people, fidelity is not like the core issue of the contract of trust. The queer world has brought like a lot of new versions of like, what does it mean to be loyal and to be honest?

Some people don't need their partner to be completely loyal or monogamous with them. Some people just wanna know everything. Some people, you know, don't ask, don't tell. There are many ways to be a couple and to have trust. So I think in terms of my approach, first of all, I don't assume about any couple that I understand what fidelity means to them and what cheating means to them. Gotcha.

Um, I really have to find out. And sometimes the process of discovery is really interesting. You find out that two people can have different ideas of what's okay and what's not okay, what they expected of each other. Sometimes I would think that, oh this would surely be experiences of betrayal and then I hear that that's not the issue at all. No, they're like, I don't even care about that. Like, that's not the problem. Sure.

I'm just thinking about a couple where the thing that bothered them was that the cheating happened in a public bathroom. That was the problem. Not the cheating, but where it happened. It's like, you never know. Like, what matters to people. I mean I guess my first thought and you're the expert but my first thought was

is that true? Like I would did you believe that person? I did believe that person. I learned something about this couple that was like really interesting. And why the bathroom? Because it was like it was a the the backdrop was kind of lowlife. It's not classy. So it was almost, okay. So they had expectations of how their partner should carry themselves. And that's the thing that mattered, not like, like, eh, fidelity, like, come on, sex is good. The embarrassment to the other partner was how they conduct an entrance. It's just, I'm just giving this as an example of like, you don't know what what the meaning is to people,

you have to really ask a lot of questions. And then you don't know. So where is the I mean, the problem with cheating is betrayal of trust, right? It's often not the sex. I mean, for some people it is, and for some people it's like the actual possessiveness or the thought of sex with someone else or the competition. It comes down to like, how can I trust you? Like, how do I know who you are? That's a big, that's a common thing. I don't even know who you are anymore.

Like, how can I trust you going forward? So how do people build back that trust when that trust regard, you know, right? So, so for me, a lot of the work is, first of all, clarifying those issues, what what is the, the expectation, the underlying contract, where does the person feel most betrayed? And when you're talking about restoring trust, sometimes it's about like remorse, concern about hurting the other person. But sometimes it's about really the work of recovery is about figuring out both something new about the relationship, like where was the, let's say, the cheating, where was that a commentary on the relationship.

That you need another language other than cheating to talk about that element of the relationship and sometimes it's a person by cheating they're trying to say something about who they are to their partner. And then it's not about going back and restoring things to the past, it's about going forward and changing based on new information you have about your partner. It's like you're not going to change your partner, you're going to learn something new about them and what does that mean now? Now that you know this about your partner, who are the two of you and what kind of relationship do you wanna have? It was actually, there was a really,

really interesting example of that in the third season of our show with Brock and Christie, where Christie had like a one time, one night stand with someone and they worked for years to process the meaning of that event between them. And Brock really was had this like fantasy that they could go back to before. And Christie was like, No, we're not going back to before. This was me. Yeah. And you need to understand something about me. Yeah, I've was familiar with people in couples therapy,

dealing with infidelity, I've heard there's a lot of reference to like, that was person A, and this is now person B. You know? And like- That's how people talk about it? Well, that's a certain aspect, I've talked to people in couples therapy where it's just,

you're right, it's for the people who have been able to work through it. There's almost like a memorial of the relationship they had when it was going on is over. It doesn't exist anymore. And so it's not maintaining the same relationship to your point, it's starting new. And it's-

Not new, but growing, changing. Changing, there's a, yeah. And like, yeah, I'm just kind of figure speaking. There's obviously, you know, you don't wanna be too literal. You don't wanna like, you can't throw it all, you don't wanna throw it all your old memories of, you know, there was probably some great times in there too, but you almost have to see them as a new partner,

you know, in a way. Because yeah, if you wanna just go back to what you had, and I have found that people say that, but they don't really mean it, because to go back to what you have. And I have found that people say that, but they don't really mean it because to go back to what you have would be to go back to the person who cheated on you. You go back and you would have to go back to whatever disconnect the relationship had that played a role in the infidelity. But it's kind of fat. It made me think suddenly, I mean, I don't know if this is like, if it totally works

one to one, but it makes me think of like, as a parent, like the first time your kid lies to you, like, I don't know, they they they do something with their friends and they don't tell you or they steal money from you or like, there's, there's, there are these rites of passage that kids put their parents through and they're telling you I'm someone new, I'm not this kid that was before look at me I'm not you don't know everything about me yeah and you and you have to like accept that your kid is not just this thing you had in your mind there they're showing you that there are more yeah yeah that's really interesting it's an important rite of passage in a way of parenting.

Yeah. Painful. True. Yeah. But so can relationships be. Yeah. But accepting, we all just want to be accepted. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And known.

Yeah. We often go into relationships showing our best self, you know, afraid of being judged, you know, and that can be scary to eventually allow yourself to be comfortable enough to demonstrate the cracks in the armor and things like that. So fascinating. I know on this season you have a throuple. How does that work in couples therapy? When you're now dealing with a third element? And I guess I'd love to hear about that, but also, you seem really open

kind of in terms of all types of relationships. Is that something that could be for anyone? How does that work? And how do you avoid all the potential pitfalls that can come from a throuple? And I guess, are some people made for that type of relationship where they almost, they need multiple partners, you know,

to be like what what how does it even start because usually the the thought is like it's around sex sexual. It's a sex thing, but I feel like that's a misconception. I think that's a misconception. There's a lot that I can say about it and I will start by saying that I'm learning this world. It's, there's, I mean, the, the, the permutations on the kinds of relationships that people are having nowadays are new and they're ever evolving. Like the, the, the business of like monogamy, non-monogamy, throuples, or actually the group that you're talking about on the show, they're not a throuple, they're a-

Polyamory. Polycarous. Polycarous. I guess what's the- Oh, poly what? They're a polycule. Oh. And what's the difference?

The differences, for example, with these three, in terms of like intimacy, they're two couples, but the women are not sexual with each other. They're good friends, but they're not in a sexual relationship. So the man is in sexual relationships with the two women. Okay. So that's not a throuple. And a throuple is more-

A throuple is when there's a three relationship. It's going to all different directions. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. That makes sense. So in a certain way, in this particular constellation, it was somewhat of a two couples and a friendly structure of three. Interesting. But there are throuples. I have throuples in my private practice. I mean, I can't talk

about them, but how does it work? It doesn't work for everyone, absolutely not. And sometimes people turn to non-monogamous constellations as an attempt to solve something and it's not the right solution. It can be when people feel somehow like something's missing or something is constricted or something's wrong, they try the non-monogamy way or the multiple partner or polyamorous way and it seems like it will be the solution and then it's not the solution. So it's not for everyone and for for some people, it's absolutely, it feels like just totally wrong. It's like, you can think of it somewhat, almost like a sexual orientation. Like for some people, it feels just right. For some people, it's like, I can

experiment with this, but eh, not really my thing. And for some people, it's just like, absolutely wrong. That's not what I want. I want like, my one partner, I want like a lot of safety and a lot around possession. And in terms of my work with people, I try to first of all, again, understand what are the contracts that people need in terms of like, to feel secure, to feel safe, to feel trust in the relationship. If they're going to engage in non-monogamous structures or poly structures, there's always some kind of price that they're paying. Is it worth for them the price? Are they gaining more than losing? And some people are. Like with this particular polycule they were talking about like how much more love they're gaining in their life.

While dealing with things like jealousy and complexity and competition which are built in the more people you introduce. Fascinating. Yeah. Another couple that you have on season four, they are having trouble with their relationship and their communication styles, but they do have a kid together. How does that added element of sharing a child affect your approach with couples therapy? Stakes are higher when there's a child. I mean, you have to consider the well-being of the child as like kind of a top priority. And for the couple, obviously it makes the issues different.

Most couples when they have a child, they kind of instinctually feel like there's each of their individual needs, there's the couple's needs, and then there's like the very powerful needs of this growing person. So it, the priorities shift a lot. I have one question, not couple related.

It's more dating related. Um, it feels like people are having a harder and harder and it's never been, it seems like it's never been harder to meet people, to connect with people. Uh, hookup culture. I don't know if you're already familiar, but like the, you know, the I think we're past hookup culture. You think we're past? I think we're past hookup culture.

My experience of like young people is, I mean, for a while there was like serious hookup culture when there was like a lot of sex in all directions and everyone's trying everything. And I feel like young people nowadays have a lot less sex. They're not pairing up, but there's a lot less sex, which is really interesting. And why are they, what's stopping them from pairing up? For all the people who still have the desire to meet someone, to have a family, or just to have companionship, what do you think is the number one thing or the things that are stopping people from finding that? Because it seems like out there there's always a lot of reasons why they're finding the wrong people. There doesn't seem to be a lot of self-reflection. It

always seems to be a lot of like, well, there's terrible options. Everyone thinks there's just terrible options out there. And it's just like, well, you know. How do you see dating culture? And what could anyone listening who's single, who has the desire to meet someone, what are some things or advice you could offer them to maybe change a behavior too that you that could maybe open up some more doors for them? I generally think the the this is just my own very subjective impression like based on my practice. Also I'm having like my oldest kid is like 24 so I'm very close to her friends and the way they think about things. I think the reason people are having a harder time getting into long-term relationships is not

necessarily about, it's certainly not about their not being the right partner out there. I think it has to do with like a much wider kind of anxiety that is gripping society nowadays. There's deep anxieties about the future and I'm talking anything from like the climate catastrophe, like coming our way in the speed of light and the feeling that there's like no leaders or government to trust, the feeling that you can't trust the news. There's many reasons to be really anxious nowadays and to not know exactly what is the safe

and correct social structure to aim for. I think that that's the main reason people are having a hard time kind of bonding and settling into something. I think there's a great deal of anxiety and sadness among young people. And I don't want to get into like, I mean, obviously there's climate change and things like that, but, you know, I didn't, I'm not old enough to know what it was like to live in like the sixties

where like, you know, the cold war was going on and people were making bomb shelters or the great depression. There's various parts of our history that, you know. Totally, that were scary. There were scary. That were scary. Yeah. I think nowadays it's more like doom scrolling,

like on social media, this idea where it's just like, my wife and I just had our first daughter and I have a lot of fears about the future. I have a lot of concerns about raising a daughter, but at the end of the day, you know, I wanna have a family, you know, and for all those people, how can we fight through this anxiety? You know, we can't predict the future, you know, and to me, it's like we have to remain optimistic, you know. I hope that we figure out our climate

problems and I hope we figure out our leadership problems. I don't know if we will but right how do you know Living in fear doesn't seem to be an option. I want to I agree, but I think that is the context in which it's hard for people to Feel you need a certain kind of courage and bravery To get intimate with another person. Yeah. Right. And when you're very anxious about so many different things, it's hard to do that.

Yeah. But if, I guess if I had to somehow put it in the form of advice, which is hard to do. Sure. I'd say lean into courage, like be willing to take the risk of being intimate, of getting to know another person and putting a little more faith in what could possibly happen between you and the other person. Not like not live defensively, but live in a certain, with a certain degree of courage,

which is hard to do nowadays. It is. Yeah, it's interesting, you know, I mean, I literally just got married and I just had a baby, so like I'm feeling very optimistic about life, but I will say, like, I guess even for the people listening, you know, for all the fears I do have,

there's this constant feeling of gratitude, of like, when I have faced the fears of like, well, at least I have my partner, my family to face the fears. It's even scary facing it alone. And so the greatest gift I've received so far in my brief marriage, but I've been in a relationship for a while, is just like, we have each other, and it's nothing else. I like that. That's great.

And we've had our problem. Everyone has problems. everyone has their problems. Yeah. I always, I say that because like, you know, I don't want to always give the picture of like, you know, it's easy to talk about your, the good times. Yeah. I like that message as a note. A note.

Yeah. I feel like we could talk forever. I know we have to go, but congratulations on this very fascinating and exciting show. Season four, is it out yet? Season four is premiering, what will be this coming Friday, May 31st. And it's available on Paramount as well? Yeah, Paramount Plus with Showtime plan. Okay.

Well, be sure to check it out. I know everyone who listens to this show will be, if you haven't seen Couples Therapy already, I promise you, if you're interested in this show, you're interested in Couples Therapy, so be sure to check it out. It's an excellent show. You can learn a lot about relationships, therapy in general, and also just be entertained.

So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Do you have like a social media? Do you want to plug anything before you go other than the show itself? Just the show. than the show itself? Let's just let's just say that the the next season is going to be a real treat. Okay. All right. Well, we look forward to seeing it and Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Nick. Uh before we get to our callers just once again

Don't forget to send in your questions at ask nick at the vollefiles.com for all things ask nick It's time to get to our callers. Question time with Nick. Let's ask Nick your sexy questions. How's it going? Good. Hi Nick, my name is Lauren, I am 39 years old and my husband and I disagree on choosing the sex of our next embryo transfer.

Okay, can you explain what that means to me? Yes I can. Okay, so my husband and I, we went through IVF and we ended up with four genetically normal embryos and when you get your embryos genetically tested you can find out the sex of the embryos. So with our four embryos, we ended up with three female and one male.

And just to kind of give you a sense of where we're at right now, we decided we want to have definitely one kid together, no more than two kids together. And we do have a daughter right now through IVF. So we transferred an embryo and miscarried it, and that was a female. And then we transferred another female, and that's my daughter.

And now we're left with one female and one male embryo. Okay. And who wants what? So initially we definitely agreed that having a girl first was something we both wanted. And then it was kind of, I guess assumed like, well, we'll have the boy next. And then now that we're starting to actually talk about

doing this next transfer, cause it's gonna happen in the next probably three months or so, my husband still really wants that boy. And I am starting to waver a bit. And what I actually want is to have it be a surprise where the clinic picks for us and doesn't tell us, they just put an embryo in and then we get to actually find out sort of the old fashioned way way like a couple who conceives normally. So I want the surprise, he wants the boy. Interesting. What if I gave a little

backstory on my husband's history and why he wants the boy so much? You're welcome to, sure. I don't know if he knew, I don't know if an explanation or a justification is needed, you know, he... Okay. But I mean, I'm curious. I mean, I will say, like, you know, it's funny, like everyone knows we have a daughter, right? And since we've had a daughter, I, you know, I grew up my whole life, you know, I've always wanted to be a dad. And my whole life, I imagined having a son.

I didn't spend a lot of time imagining having a daughter, you know, just is what it is. You know, playing sports and things like that. It's what I envisioned. And obviously when we got pregnant, or now we got pregnant rather, and we did the sex reveal, you know, obviously I just wanted a healthy baby. But there was a part of me that was just like, you know, I've always, I've wanted a boy so much

that I've always been convinced I'll only have girls, you know. Now that I have River, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine River being anything but who she is, you know. Like the, it's like, I remember we had River and I just said to Natalie, it's just like, I know I wanted a boy so bad, but I'm just so happy we have her. Like I get it as someone like who wants a boy. Well, my husband actually has boys. So he was married before. Okay. And he has children from his previous marriage. Interesting, okay.

He did not, yeah, he didn't get to raise his children the way he would have liked given his really demanding career. Plus he had his children young with his ex. And he also was pretty much undermined by his ex as a parent as a father, like, because his career is so demanding, he's in the military. So he would get deployed. He also within the military has a demanding career. So his ex wife would tell him, you know, you don't know the children the a demanding career. So his ex-wife would tell him, you know, you don't know the children the way I do. And, you know, she basically sort of commandeered the parenting role there. So with me, he gets a second chance at marriage, a second

chance at parenthood, at being present. And he is an amazing husband and such a dedicated, loving father. So definitely want that to be known. But there was a lot of challenge on his end raising his kids with his ex-wife and there are also some disabilities in his children. So he really wants kind of the opportunity to have a fresh start at a son, if that helps. Makes sense. Thanks for the context. But you know, it's like that's also like one of those things where we all have our reasons and they're all valid kind of thing. Right. Agreed. And explain to me why the surprise is so important to you.

So it's actually not the surprise as much. I think that would be kind of fun and more authentic, like going through IVF is obviously very different from conceiving naturally, there's really no surprise at all throughout the process. Everything comes down to science and numbers and you know, you start with this many eggs and then you end up with this many embryos and then this many chances to get pregnant. So it's just a very different experience and I've always sort of, you know, envied women who have been able to conceive naturally and again, I don't know if it's helpful to know this, but my husband had a vasectomy after his last marriage so that's why we did IVF. And so yeah, I think it'd be nice to have a slightly more conventional experience getting to find out the gender

or sex of the baby. So your only reason for doing IVF is because he had a vasectomy? Well, after his vasectomy, he did have a reversal, but it didn't work the way we'd hoped. And so IVF was really our only option if we wanted to. That's helpful, because I'm sure a lot of people, including myself, were like,

well, if you want to do it the old fashioned way, just reverse that shit. Yeah, not always. It doesn't always work that way. Okay, good to know, good to know. And then, but mostly what I want to say is that I feel a lot of pressure because of how badly he wants this boy and I already feel pressure doing having done IVF and going through that process like you know knowing how much money and time and

effort and physical sacrifice goes into that process. Now knowing he wants that boy so badly it just it makes it more stressful to me in a way and so for it to be a surprise would take that pressure off. I also love raising my daughter so much that I am kind of like, well, I kind of think I would actually, if I had to pick, pick the girl, but I'd rather just not pick at all. But that's what I ask.

I feel like deep down, if you had your choice, you'd pick a girl. Probably. And I feel like that's, and it sounds to me like that's what it's coming down to and your compromise to yourself and you're trying to sell it as a compromise to him is that, well, what if we make it a surprise?

And that way, I still, I have a chance of getting my way. And that way it's, and it's like your way of saying, well, neither of us will, we'll put it in fate's hands and we'll have to accept it. Did you guys in the past agree if you were to have a second child via IVF that it would be a boy? We talked about it back when having a second child was still up in the air. So like I said, we definitely wanted one.

And then we kind of see how we felt about a second one because he already has all the kids from before. So we talked about it, but I wouldn't say, you know, I signed a contract or anything saying yes, but what was the expectation? In my eyes, the expectation was that we would probably do the boy, but that it wasn't, we hadn't like finalized our decision. Sure, you know, it's tough. I'm trying to, I feel like I have a, I feel like I'm trying to, I feel like I have a, I feel like I'd have to, I almost have to recuse myself because of my bias.

It's one of those things, like the little bit I know about IVF or just like conceiving in general is that stress is something you absolutely want to avoid. Right? Definitely. I hate that this is something that's causing both of you stress.

Right. But it's hard for me to try to figure out a way for you to convince your husband to want a son less than he already does. Right. I don't think I'm gonna be able to do that. And he might concede. He very much might concede, you know,

but it's not gonna change how he feels deep down. Then if that, and if you, you know, I don't want there to be resentment or, you know, I guess it's like how against having a boy are you? You know? I'm not against it. Like I said, if it happened in that surprise world where I get my way and we don't know what we're gonna have

and then we find out it's the boy, I'd be happy with it. I think again, it comes down to just feeling all this pressure, knowing how badly my husband wants it. It makes me anxious. And like you said, stress and IVF, stress and pregnancy in general don't mix well. Just a question though, but why,

and I just wanna make, I've clearly, goes without saying, don't know what it's like to be in your shoes, and to be a mom, and to have to go through pregnancy, so I just want to acknowledge that. But why, just as a general question that not necessarily related to conceiving, but why is your husband wanting something so badly and you having the ability to make that happen?

Pressure. Because when I think about my ability to make Nally's dreams come, like we just got married. I wanted to give Nally the wedding of her dreams. Now granted, there was stress involved and certainly, you know, money involved, but like, it was, I didn't feel stress from the opportunity to make her dreams come true.

So when you keep saying, I know how badly my husband wants that and that makes me stressed, that sounds confusing to me. Can you explain that? Yes, okay. So obviously with IVF, will you transfer an embryo That sounds confusing to me. Can you explain that? Yes, okay. So obviously with IVF, when you transfer an embryo, there's no guarantees that that baby will come to be,

like I said, he's not a miscarriage with the first one. So I worry about him experiencing the loss of that to some degree. We also, I don't know how much in the weeds you want me to go, but we also both have personal sort of experience and I would say trauma with having disabled males in our family.

Okay. His son's plural from before have some disabilities and my brother has a disability and my dad had a really hard time accepting that. Yeah. You know, having someone with a disability. Is that a coincidence or is this genetics? Is you guys having a daughter reduced the chances of your child?

No? You're shaking your head no? No. No. So no. I mean, and our embryos have tested normal, which means they are most likely going to be born healthy, typical babies, but certain things can't be tested for, for the record.

But I think it's the boy factor. Like I saw how much my dad struggled to have a son that didn't fulfill his dreams of what a son should be. And I know my husband has experienced that now. And then here comes this boy who's like, everybody is really counting on him to like be normal. That's fair. Have you had conversations with your husband about that?

Because regardless, if they're born without a disability, you two still run the risk of over-parenting and applying way too much pressure on this boy than this child deserves. And that's, and that's a conversation that you and your husband need to acknowledge and have. We have talked about it a bit at first. So we both have therapists that we speak to separately.

And his first response, when I said that, what I just explained about the pressure on this boy and how I, you know, I'm worried about it. He said, well, you need to talk to your therapist about that. And I said, well, thank you, I already have. Okay, but that's a big, that's a, that's a, it's a fair point though, in the sense that your fears doesn't, like I understand your fears, they're valid, they make sense, but like as much as, you know, again,

I've acknowledging that I've always wanted to have a son, but I'd like to think that at the end of the day, what I want to be is just a son. But I'd like to think that at the end of the day, what I want to be is just a good parent to my children, regardless of if they're a boy or a girl. Regardless of the fact that your husband has had two boys with disabilities, don't doubt your husband's ability to see the bigger picture.

You've already acknowledged how good of a father he is. And so it's not necessarily fair for you to assume he's going to be a certain way just because he wants to have a son. No, and I said to him, I know he's not gonna, I think my dad really mishandled the situation with my brother, but I know my husband would, has shown

that he's a much more, you know, loving, accepting father to his kids. So that's, that's very true. I think I just, you know, and the anticipation of raising this boy and having him need to fulfill this sort of void is what freaks me out, you know, and that I don't want that over-parenting and I don't want to feel like my husband is, you know, in that I don't want that over-parenting and I don't wanna feel like my husband is trying to make this boy into exactly what he missed out on, if that makes sense, I guess. It makes sense, but that doesn't mean it's gonna happen. Right.

You know, and you know your husband, I don't. Do you, you know, for example, I grew up in athletics and the possibility of being a father to a son, I always envisioned teaching him how to play sports. Now that I have River, I don't know what she's going to be interested in. I was interested in a lot of things. I was interested in art. I was interested in fashion.

I was interested in sports, but sports as a kid is something that was a big deal to me. And at the end of the day, and I've felt this long before I was ever a dad, and I feel it now that I am a dad, I don't care what River does. I really don't. I don't care if she plays sports. I don't care if she plays the flute. What I care is that my children do things they're passionate, and I care that whatever

they do, they give their absolute best in doing. I hope they try a bunch of different things as young kids and as young adults and they figure out what they have a passion for. But I hope my kids are lucky enough to find that passion because whatever my kids do, I want them to give 100%. I want them to give it their all. I want them to try to be the best in whatever it is

they decide to put their lives in. And I don't know what it's going to be. And certainly, you know, as River gets older or if we're lucky, if I'm lucky enough to have a son that, yeah, I might, you know, I might get a bunch of basketballs and balls and sports and I might, you know, be like, hey, are you guys interested in this? But like, I don't know, they might not be, you know, and I'll accept that. But what matters to me is that I teach my kids passion and dedication and work ethic and things like that,

and I feel like those are all valuable lessons. And do you think your husband is more aligned with that mentality rather than your husband? Because it's not, I mean, I know, shit man, like Natalie has a family member that literally said, we're having a boy first. And it wasn't because they went into die VF or anything like that. He just thought he could just speak it into existence.

Like if you knew this guy, you wouldn't be shocked that he said this. But and it's, it's not an immediate relative, but he has a very ignorant mentality on, on conceiving. He does have a daughter, ironically, already, but with a different, with someone else. And I wouldn't doubt, and I guess I bring this up, because it wouldn't doubt me if this person forces their kids into what they liked, into their hobbies. And so, I don't know, do you think your husband's more like that or you think your husband's more like me? No, I think he's more like you, I do. Okay, well, there you go.

So the more I'm talking, the more I'm sensing that your fears are more just internal and that's something that, you know, and maybe a projection of your own childhood with your father rather than, and I would hate for you to not be able to fulfill your husband's dreams because of things that you experienced

as a young child from your father. Right, no that makes sense. I think part of the other side of the struggle for me is I feel like I've made a ton of sacrifices in this marriage just having to deal with an ex-wife that's very, very difficult. Sure. And then having to become-

You knew you had an ex-wife going into that relationship. Of course, no, I did. I didn't have a clue what I was getting into, but I did know he had an ex-wife. Understood, yeah. And then I didn't know what it would be like to be a stepmom to three children that we do have 50-50 custody.

So I feel like I've stepped up to the plate in a lot of ways for him. And in some ways, him really pushing this, I feel like you already have, you have since he has a daughter too already from before. So I'm like, it's one more thing I'm gonna have to sacrifice, if that makes sense. Do you think, what sacrifices do you feel

like your husband's made? I mean, he's just a wonderful husband and he does a lot to try to meet my needs and take care of me. I don't know if that counts as a sacrifice, but I don't have any baggage, so to speak. I've never been married. I don't have children from before.

My family has welcomed him into the fold wholeheartedly. I feel like- life has gone. But you don't think your husband on a consistent basis making you feel like you're his top priority and on a consistent basis his willingness to go out of his way to be a great husband and a father isn't a sacrifice? No, I mean, it's something I absolutely appreciate.

I guess I haven't thought of it as a sacrifice. Well, listen, I get a lot of fulfillment out of being a husband now and a father. So I don't want to sound like a martyr. But every day there are things that I have to step up and do that I guess if I had no other responsibility, I might be playing a lot more video games. There's other things I might be doing.

You know what I'm saying? Like, and that is a sacrifice, you know? No, you're right. You're right. And I mean, I would like to think that as a wife, I've also, you know, I'm sure you have. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not doubting it.

Yeah. But like you've, I guess I just don't, obviously it's a sacrifice to be, to get pregnant and it's your body, but like, you deciding to marry a man with an ex-wife and kids, and the fact that you didn't have an ex-husband or kids, I don't think you get to keep bringing that up throughout the relationship as something that he,

from time to time, has to do something that you don't have to do because it's like, what is he supposed to do with that? You... No, I know. Yeah, I try not to bring it up. I try not to hang it over his head. Obviously, this is his life and I chose to be a part of it.

Like you said, I knew I was marrying a man with an ex-wife and kids. And so I try not to hang it up around him. For example, Natalie... It's just hard for me to forget. I'm sure it's Natalie. it's, well, not comparing, but for example, it's impossible for Natalie to forget that I was engaged multiple times.

Hell, it's well documented on television. I don't think she's in love with that idea. There are things I have to accept about Natalie's past. There are things that, we both had to accept things about each other. And I just don't think it would be fair for either of us to bring it up as something where it's just like, I'm just tired of having to accept the fact that like,

I chose to get married to a man who's been, you know, now they'd be like, I've never been engaged. You've been engaged fucking three times, you know, before you get engaged to me, you know, I never, I never imagined for myself, and again, I'm not comparing because obviously a crazy ex-wife, I'm sure is a giant pain in your fucking ass. And I totally believe that you had no idea

what you're signing up for, but it was still your choice. And I don't know if you get to use that as some sort of trump card in these types of situations. Right, I don't wanna be manipulative, I really don't. Because to him, I can assure you, it will feel like you are punishing him for something he probably feels very punished for already. He probably feels very punished by his ex-wife

more than you can imagine. And you punishing him for his ex-wife in a decision like this, dangerous territory. Well, it's not punishing him because it's not like I'm trying to spite him by saying I want to do it this way. I really, if I could get to where he was at and want it just as badly as him, I would. I just don't.

I'm not there right now. No, I know. Yeah, I don't really have an answer for, I can't tell you how to feel. I just wanna point out things I'm hearing from you about why you might feel the way you do. And you've acknowledged some past childhood trauma from your father.

You've acknowledged some strong feelings about what it's taken for you to deal You've acknowledged some strong feelings about what it's taken for you to deal with some of the things that he has brought to the table in this relationship. And despite those being valid and understandable, all I'm saying is that it's like, I think you've kind of suggested it as a way of, as a reason that he should come around to understand how you feel,

and I don't know if I necessarily agree with that, because I do think that's kind of more of a you thing than a him thing. Because again, the flip side of you pointing it out to him is almost punishing him, or at least that's how he's going to feel. Yeah, I think it also, you know, this is probably definitely going to be our last child, my last pregnancy.

And I guess I'm still, yeah, grasping at that experience of like, let's keep one thing kind of out of our hands, put it into the universe, let it be that kind of whatever's meant to be will be thing to just, to me that would be like the fair way to go about it. I mean, you're talking to a guy who believes in our choices matter and meant to be is just something we say to ourselves to make ourselves feel better.

Yeah. You know, like Natalie and I not having the honeymoon that we planned, I don't believe that it was meant to be. I do believe that we rose to the occasion and we used that very frustrating situation to come together as a couple and connect as husband and wife and be there for our daughter. And I think we made the absolute most of a shitty situation.

And that's just me. I don't believe that somehow the universe made this happen and it was supposed to happen. No, I think that we were so busy worrying about everything else that we didn't take the time to check our passports. And that was a decision we made and we had to face the consequences of those decisions. And that's just me.

We make choices, we have to live with those choices. I'm not quite buying the whole, to me what I'm hearing, and I could be wrong, is just an opinion. I feel like the whole let's leave it up to destiny is not the main reason why. I think that you have convinced yourself is that as a great alternative,

but the reasons why are your deeper issues With some of the other things we talked about. Yeah, you might be right I mean, this is a conversation we just started having in the last like week or two So we we haven't gone into the nitty-gritty too much because we know we have a few months to figure it out But this has been helpful to help me sort of look within. Might be like a couples therapy type of situation, maybe. Yeah, I actually asked him if he would come on this with me today so that you could talk to both of us, but he did not feel comfortable with that. I think he would have liked it.

He probably likes a lot of my answers. But regardless, I'm not a professional. I do think this is, I think couples therapy would serve you guys well. I mean, my biggest piece of advice is figure it out. Because don't go into this with one of you feeling like you guys had to make an immense sacrifice. Yeah, that's what my therapist said actually.

She said, whatever you do, do not transfer that embryo until you are both at peace with what's happening. Yeah. I'm a big believer in not making choices out of fear. And right now I will say from what I've heard from you a lot of your reasonings are fear-based and his are not fear-based. So I would tackle your fears. And that doesn't mean you still might come to the conclusion

that you wanna leave it up to fate or that you wanna have a daughter. You have every right to want those things. I just don't think they should be made out of fear. And right now they seem to be. Okay, that's valid. All right. So hopefully this was helpful.

I'm trying to navigate a topic I either don't know much about or it's not my place to speak on, but yeah. No, it was very helpful. And I'm biased, you know, as someone who obviously wants a son. But I, yeah, all right. Okay, well thank you and congrats on your wedding.

Thank you so much. Please, can you promise that we get an update because I thought the people are gonna wanna know. This is. I can promise an update. It might take a few months. That's fine, take your time when it's ready, but when you have one, we would greatly appreciate one.

Absolutely. All right, well good luck. However it goes, I hope everything is healthy and wonderful and congratulations on your family and the fact that you, at the end of the day, sounds like you guys love each other very much. And that's a real positive thing. Right.

Well, thank you so much, Nick. All right, take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. This show is sponsored by Better Help Therapy. It's important. You know, we talk about it every episode and even though it is important, it can be really intimidating to know where to start.

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your dental product needs. How's it going? Hi, I'm Michelle and I'm 27. How can I help Michelle? I'm calling because I'm extremely nervous because my boyfriend of a year will be meeting my Christian missionary parents for the first time. Okay, wow. All right, so how Christian are you currently today?

How Christian is your boyfriend? Yeah, so me personally, my faith is super important to me still. I like to say that I live a more balanced lifestyle than before, so I still hold on to certain morals and views of that, but I would say I definitely. And now, I would call myself the black sheep of the family. Sure, it's all relative, you know?

My boyfriend is quote unquote Catholic, but not really. I know the type, but not really. I know the type, yeah. Yeah. How do your Christian parents feel about you dating a Catholic regardless? Like if he was devout in his Catholicism, like would that actually be a bigger problem? Because it's always kind of funny

because I feel like regardless of whatever your religion is, if you're a devout in that religion, it's like you almost prefer your kids to date someone if they're not gonna like share in your religion to be not as religious or like moldable so that it can bring you into your faith as opposed to someone who's like a devout Buddhist, or something like that.

Right, this is a very interesting and unique situation. I've never been in this before, which is why I'm like here. But in the past, my relationships have either been like devout Christians or I did date one guy who was a devout Catholic. And at the end of the day, my parents are like, well, our biggest concern is that they have a relationship with God and love God, and you guys have to be aligned on that. So yeah, they had an issue with, I mean, they were constantly even giving me books and like things to read about like, what our issues are going to be later down the road. But to me, I'm like, we believe in the same God, our way of getting there looks a little bit different.

And we had some like compromising. We, my ex and I, we had different churches. We were like, let's go look for a church together. I no longer go to church. So my situation now, I feel like is extremely different. It's more important for me that we align on like morals and like long-term goals of like what a family should look like and what we want

a healthy relationship to be like. So yeah. Absolutely. So yeah. Absolutely. So what is your biggest concern when it comes to introducing your boyfriend to your parents? Well, there's a couple of different concerns. The first is my parents have been always very involved in all of my relationships in the past,

like from the beginning, even from like, oh, they knew I was talking to someone or whatever. This situation, we've been dating for a year and they've literally never even talked on the phone with him. No FaceTime, no nothing. So that in itself is like a little unique for me because I'm like, okay, I like how does this meeting go? Also, my parents are still currently missionaries. So they live in a different country, which will either require them coming to visit me or us going to visit them. So there's no like casual introduction to this.

And then the other side of it is my boyfriend has never, he's told me multiple times, he's never met or even been around people like my parents before. Okay, how old are you again, 27? So, 27, yeah. How old is he? He's 30. And when he says he's never been around people like this,

does that mean people like this devout in their faith? Yes, like this devout in their faith. Yes, and of course, like my parents, because of them being devout in their faith, have very specific like beliefs and things that they do when they'll do. 100%. And that's like completely taboo to him. Like what?

My parents do not drink at all. Okay, well that's- You'll never hear them. That's taboo for him? It parents do not drink at all. Okay, well that's- You'll never hear them. That's taboo for him? It's like say a curse word. Well, I don't think the drinking- I drink and I got a fucking mouth like a sailor,

but for someone who doesn't swear, that's not like weird for me. It's like, oh, okay. I don't find it to be taboo if someone actually, and honestly, sometimes I think my potty mouth is a little unnecessary at times, but it's just like a bad habit I have. And people who don't, I'm not a big drinker, but I drink.

And for the people who don't drink, I'm like, you know. People do this weird thing that like they see different as odd or different as abnormal. Like sometimes we just have to learn to appreciate our differences. I know that sounds obvious and cliche, especially nowadays, but as far as your boyfriend is concerned, I think that, you know, when he says stuff like that, just be like, listen, like the other day, they just don't share the same things that you value and that's

totally fine. But like, you know, he doesn't need to judge them for it. Also like, you know, there's probably some sort of Bible quote out there, like don't judge it, let's DB judge, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or something bullshit, or I don't know, I shouldn't say bullshit. Fuck, sorry. You're fine. Listen, this all comes down to you, really,

at the end of the day. How do your parents accept your not going to church, or how do they accept your less than devout lifestyle? Wait. So that has also been a really big hurdle, or how do they accept your less than devout lifestyle? Yeah. So that has also been a really big hurdle because I don't feel like they completely, they have not accepted where I'm at. They always refer to it as a season or I'm in a phase

and that eventually I'll come back and like I make up excuses. And throughout life, I feel like I've been thrown lots of different things. So I'm like, I don't know if I will go to church again. I'm not against the church. Maybe, life, I feel like I've been thrown lots of different things. So I'm like, I don't know if I will go to church again. I'm not against the church. Like, Christmas, I'll go to church. But at the end of the day, like, I do believe very differently because of the experiences that I've been exposed to throughout my life. And here I am, and this is who I am. I had my, what I call a coming out conversation with

my parents of like, I'm not going to church church I'm not looking to go to church, but that was several years ago and they still don't like fully accept that What does that mean? Like cuz there's everything not accepting that pushing their ways Yeah, I mean parents are always gonna be annoying, but do you feel like they accept and love you? You know, they 100% love me they but my dad's one of the things he said, and I always said it was like my interventions. He was like, well, we're always going to tell you what's right, even if you don't. That's fair. I'm like, that's fair.

And I'm like, but for you, what's right. And for me, what's right looks a little different. 100%. I'm not trying to convince you that what you're doing is wrong or right. I respect it. And I just want the equal amount of respect in return. Exactly. And that's something you can say to mom and dad. It's just like, listen, you're right, you know, and as parents I respect that you will tell me things I

don't want to hear, but also as an adult now, you know, everyone has their limits, you know, and everyone has their breaking point and it's no fun feeling judged for choices that I feel are still good character, healthy, positive, and I just don't like feel like being judged by people who simply just disagree, especially from my parents. And while I'm not saying, you know, I'm just pointing out, this is not meant to be a threat of any kind, but I'm simply just pointing out that everyone has their breaking point. And if you insist on our entire relationship being you guys reminding me of how disappointed you are in my decisions, it's eventually going to affect our relationship. That won't bring us close together. That will create distance. And I don't want that. I love you guys. I'm comfortable with

respecting your choices even though they don't align with mine and you're right I might go back someday but it doesn't help you you know you guys throwing out shame and judgment. I'm aware of how you guys feel. I'm fully aware. I don't need to be reminded of it. It's one thing for parents to say hey this is how I feel about the situation. It's quite another for parents to make it their mission, no pun intended, to like, you know, constantly almost harass and make their whole relationship with you about their disappointment in you.

And I think you need to point that out to mom and dad. My parents have been, they're super supportive of what I'm doing with my life career-wise and the choices that I have made. It just always turns back into the religion and having a relationship with God and all these things, which again, I respect. But they've never been like,

we're disappointed in you for not doing this. They're always just like, well, it's a season. You'll come back and I'm like, no, you guys don't understand. But in regards to my relationship, when I first started dating my boyfriend, they were like, well, you know, obviously our biggest concern is like, he doesn't believe. And like, are you guys gonna be aligned?

And I straight up told them, I'm like, I think it's unrealistic to expect something out of the person that I am dating to do something that I personally don't participate in either. Genuinely curious, when they say he doesn't believe, what do they mean? Because he is- Doesn't have like a personal relationship with God.

Okay, says them, you know, like he is a non-practicing Catholic, I'm guessing he believes in God on some level. You know, I'm guessing he, you know, maybe only when he really needs, says a prayer or two, or maybe throws it in our Father now and then. But like, you can even say to Mom and Dad, like, well, that's not really for you to say.

You know, again, like, it's one thing to, Mom and Dad, I respect how devout you are. Truly, you know, your commitment, your commitment to what you believe in is inspiring mom and dad. But at the same time, it can be condescending and rude when you enforce your judgment and opinions on other people who don't agree with you that I care about.

Right. You know? And it sounds like you kind of already said this, but I think mom and dad need to hear that we are aligned. I'm more aligned with him than I am with you guys. And that might be hard for you guys to hear, but this is a decision I've made for myself, and you have to make sure that they're not blaming him,

because it would be super easy for them to make it seem like he's pulling you away from God. Who took me away. Yeah, something like that. But at the end of the day, this comes down to you. Your boyfriend has no relationship with them, certainly right now. And I doubt, given how they sound,

that it's ever gonna be that close unless he were to convert into what they expect. But it doesn't really matter. Again, that's what I mean, it comes down to you. convert into what they expect. But it doesn't really matter. Again, that's what I mean, it comes down to you. It comes down to what you communicate with your boyfriend in terms of what your expectations are of him and what you communicate with your parents

in terms of what your expectations are with how they interact with him. Your boyfriend doesn't owe them anything other than just general respect. You know, and that's kind of your parents too. So I don't know what you want to say to your parents about this. As far as your boyfriend goes,

it's kind of like, listen, I wouldn't scare him. And you know, it's just, but like, if they say anything that you don't agree with, just be respectful. And at the end of the day, regardless of whatever they say, just know that you don't have to, you know, all that matters is we need to be aligned. And so use this as an

opportunity to make sure that you and your boyfriend are, you know, what is important to you. You know, you might not be as religious to your parents, but you still are religious. So and religion is very much a non-negotiable. So it's still important for you and your boyfriend, especially if someone was like, because you're right, you might go back to church. And I think that's what you said to your parents. And we definitely have those conversations. We definitely have those conversations.

And we're definitely like, obviously like it's a year in from what I can tell, we're very much on the same page. We see eye to eye on things. So I don't, and obviously I've like really prepared him of like my background and how my parents are. So it's not like he's going into this blindly. I guess one of the like biggest things that I'm like trying to like figure out again,

because I've not been in a situation where I've had to introduce someone that I've been dating for so long out of like nowhere basically, is like, do I let them come here and visit, do we do a dinner? Do we fly back home from where I'm from and stay at home? Which that's weird, right?

We're not gonna sleep in the same room. That's fine, he doesn't have to. There's nothing wrong with, I'm assuming you and your boyfriend sleep in the same bed or whatever when you spend the night, but he should have no problem sleeping in his own room if you guys were to make that choice to go visit your parents.

But before we get to that, my question is- Right, but he's been super respectful about that. Like it's your parents' rules, he's like, if that's the way that they are, he's like, cool, like we're gonna go with it. Yeah, cool, exactly, perfect. He's got a great attitude, yeah. What conversations specifically have you had

with your parents about meeting your boyfriend? Okay, so originally, which is kind of crazy They're supposed to be coming up in the next week Your parents to visit my parents are supposed to be coming to visit me great and to visit some other friends in the area That is no longer just like plans fell through so they're not like oh We'll probably come up in the next couple of months But also like conversations between my boyfriend and I, we both feel like, OK, it's time like I've met all of his family.

He literally doesn't know a single soul on my side. Then like, all right, it's that point in the relationship, like we need to prioritize and make this like be intentional about meeting the family. So I'm like my parents, I kind of feel like they know I'm with him. And obviously, they realize that I'm in a relationship. But I kind of feel like they know I'm with him and obviously they realize that I'm in a relationship, but I don't think they take it super seriously. And I think part of it is just because they've never physically met him before. Which I'm like, okay, so we need to make this happen.

But do I keep waiting and let them come here? Or do we make a trip out? If I had 10 seconds to give you advice, my advice would be don't force it. There's a difference between making it intentional and making it a priority for you and your boyfriend to say, hey, like, this is important to me. Your boyfriend, you know, and him saying it's important to me too.

It's important to the both of you. It's not a race, it's not a competition. Every family is different. The fact that you have met his and he hasn't met yours in the grand scheme of things isn't a big deal. You both want him to meet your parents. So that's a good thing, right? We're not dealing in a situation where you've met

all of his family and you're like, listen, I don't want you to meet my parents. And he's like, I really want to, why don't you want me to meet your parents? You know what I'm saying? The intention is there. And so just because it hasn't happened yet, isn't the end of the world.

And I don't think you should force it. And by forcing it means like, let it happen organically. If you happen to be going home and your parents invite him to come by all means. But I wouldn't call up mom and dad and be like, you need to meet this guy, I'm bringing him with us. You know, and make your parents kind of like, accept something they're not ready for.

Because if they're not ready for it, like, you know, why force it, you know, why force it and make them. Yeah, that's a good point. I get that you have this, you're anxious about them meeting them, but like it goes both ways too. Like you are the an adult now. So they have to earn your respect as much as they you have to still earn theirs, you know? Parents need to respect their kids as adults and that can be difficult at times, but it's up to the kids to again enforce that boundary. And you do it with respect, but sometimes you have to hold your ground.

So if your parents are coming out in a couple months and they haven't invited your boyfriend to come visit you, in the meantime, I would communicate to your parents and talk, when you talk to your parents, I would say how excited are both of you for him to meet your parents. So you, you know, you talk, you bring him up, you talk about him. They get more comfortable and familiar with hearing about your boyfriend. If they ask questions of, you know, about his faith, answer those questions. But you say, hey listen, just, you know, a heads up, assuming this is true. I'm really excited about this guy. He's a great guy. I'm hopeful about our future.

You know where I stand about my guy. He's a great guy. I'm hopeful about our future. You know where I stand about my faith. Just so you know, him and I are aligned with faith. I know, and as you might expect, Mom and Dad, that's not in line with how you guys are, but he's aligned with me. Yeah, but establish that we're aligned. We're aligned. And so I'm really asking. You don't have to be happy with it. I'm aware of your disappointment, but I really want you to show him't have to be happy with it. I'm aware of your disappointment, but I really want you to show him the respect that I think he deserves.

And I still, I'm aware of how you guys feel about my choices when it comes to my faith, but I still wanna have an amazing relationship with you guys. And you're happy to remind me from time to time, but I don't need your disappointment to be the focus of our relationship and I don't want it to be the focus of your relationship with him and I'm really asking that you guys respect that you know and then you see how they handle it.

Okay yeah. But I yeah my biggest takeaway is this is not something you need to force you know you don't need to make this happen. It'll happen on its own time and the fact that you and your boyfriend are aligned with your desire to make it happen is the most important thing. Right. And his parents are not the same as your parents and it's not a competition, it's not a race. If you two have a relationship that has any real potential for marriage and kids and things like that, then it's even less of a race. You know what I'm saying? And what you really will want is to make sure

that when it does happen, that it's as positive as possible. And I don't think waiting two months is the end all be all. You know, I talk about this all the time, because for some people, meeting each other's parents is a really big step in a relationship for other people It might be on our first date and be like, oh my god, like am I parents on the street? We should go say hi and it doesn't it's not like some big like Meeting it's like some kind of casual moment. It doesn't make it less important It doesn't mean one person's closer with their families and others

It's just like people have different meanings when it comes to what it means to them to meet their parents. Yeah. So, and I think we have to remember that. Yeah, I mean, obviously just because of logistics, it's much easier for me to meet his side than for him to meet anybody on my side since I am by myself in the city that I live in.

And maybe you could throw out to your parents, hey, like listen, if we ever come home, I think I'd love to bring them, but I wanna check with you first, you know? And I think you communicate with your mom and dad. Again, you talk about him as much as possible, and you communicate with mom and dad your desire to have them meet him.

But you're asking them to like make an effort to make sure that happens sooner than later. Because your boyfriend's ready to make that effort. And you shouldn't feel like it's a one-sided thing. Right. And so you putting it out there, anytime I met someone, my parents are never, they're not very nosy people.

But if I said to them, hey, mom and dad, for example, when I met Natalie, if I would have said, listen, I haven't met her yet, but she really wants to meet you and I hope we have that opportunity. It's not like they would jump on a plane, but they'd be like, yeah, how can we make that happen? It's just like, you should be able to say that

to your parents and they should be working with you to find quote unquote a solution to make that happen. Oh, well we'll be there in a couple months, we'd love to meet him. Oh, well we might not be able to make it out there as soon as we'd like, but if you come and visit us, you know, please bring him along. Obviously, you're gonna have to respect

the rules of our house, but like, other than that, like we would love to meet him. And you guys would be like, okay, you know, obviously we do, and then you can just kinda go from there. But it really comes down to how you communicate this with your boyfriend and with your parents. And you have to make sure that you don't project your frustrations from your parents on your boyfriend and with your parents and you have to make sure that you don't project your frustrations from your parents on your boyfriend and vice versa. You know

you got to try to separate that. You know like what are my expectations of my boyfriend and what are my expectations of my parents. If my parents don't meet my expectations that doesn't mean I expect more from my boyfriend. It just means I communicate with my boyfriend where we stand, where my parents stand, and then again, I check in with my boyfriend once again to make sure that we continue to be on the same page. And then as a couple, you could express disappointment in your parents, you know, and so like, hey, well,

yeah, I'm disappointed my parents aren't making more of an effort to meet you and your boyfriend and say, well, I'm disappointed too, but I'm glad we're both disappointed together, you know? Because it really comes down to you two and how you guys feel about any one situation. It's, you know, you're not competing, it's not a race, it's just making sure that you guys are aligned.

This is true. This is some good perspective. I spiral too easily. I'm like working up the situation in my head. They're your parents, they're not going anywhere. They're your mom and dad, you know? They'll be there forever. I'm like working up the situation in my head. They're your parents, they're not going anywhere. They're your mom and dad, you know? They'll be there forever, which love them to death.

I think it's just, it's new territory for me. Never dated someone who's not like of the faith like that. And then, again, I've never dated anyone this long and not like have any interaction, even with like my closest friends or anybody in my family. Well maybe start with your friends too. What about your friends? Why haven't they met them? Because again, so I moved away so I live in the city where I'm at and literally have nobody like my friends

become my work friends, people here but like long-term relationships that I've had like growing up and people have been close to me. Do you still keep in touch with those people? Yes. So like they've, you know, whatever we FaceTime and he's around and he says hi. Okay. Like that kind of a thing for sure. But no, no like actual in-person meeting. Okay. It's totally okay. How long you guys been dating for? Yeah. How long you been dating for? For a year. For a year, okay, yeah. It took me a year to meet Natalie's family. They lived in Savannah.

We started, more than a year. I mean, everyone's heard that we dated for 10 months without being boyfriend and girlfriend and yada yada. But once we became boyfriend and girlfriend, I didn't meet them for another year. And it wasn't until I went home to Thanksgiving with her family, because when we first started dating, wasn't until I went home to Thanksgiving with her family, because when we first started dating, I didn't immediately go home to Thanksgiving.

You know, so she went home to Thanksgiving, you know, it was actually during COVID. So I stayed home, I was by myself. She was still, she went home for Thanksgiving. And then it wasn't for a whole nother year that I met them. Totally okay. And Natalie met my parents long before she... I met hers. I'm pretty sure. I don't even remember. That's the point. It doesn't really matter. It's not a race. So yeah, try not to get in your head. Your focus is you and your boyfriend and how you guys are connected. And you have to continue to work on how you communicate with mom and dad

and you have to work on, because regardless of your boyfriend, right? Your boyfriend is just one, your boyfriend is just one topic and potentially many topics that come up with the fact that you don't align with your values that your parents have and the fact that your parents very much wish that you did. And so this is just one topic in a

series of potential topics where you're gonna have to continue to get good at communicating with your parents your expectations of them and how they treat you. You know you're fully aware of how comfortable you are with your parents communicating with you their expectations. Well I'm your dad and just so you know I'm'm going to point out things. I don't, you know, that's what dads are for, you know, to let you know when I don't approve of something, even if it's hard to hear. It's like, fair enough, dad.

But I'm also an adult now and I can communicate to you my disappointment as your daughter, ways in which I feel like you could, you know, support me better, even though you don't necessarily agree with me. Or you could find ways to like, find ways to still have a relationship with me that isn't always communicating your disappointment about my faith. And you can communicate that as well. And you can do that respectfully.

You can do that calmly. You can point out that, hey, relationships are a two-way street. And I want a relationship with you. But if every time I see you, you guys are making me feel not good about myself and making me feel like I'm making poor choices, choices that quite honestly I feel very good about, then that's going to affect our relationship. Yeah, for sure.

You know, and that does take practice. Yeah, it just takes practice and time of having those conversations and hopefully them coming around and obviously me I'm not perfect trying to best communicate in a healthy way to them too. Well the best way to always do that is maintain your calmness and lean with love you know it's very hard to get mad at someone when when tensions are risen and you're still like saying listen I know we don't align, but I still love you. I care about you. You know, and you just remain calm, even if they get triggered. Because like your calmness,

your maturity, you know, it's kind of like one of those things, like some of my biggest criticisms of like Christians or Catholics, you know, it's, it's their, their It's their, what's the Chris Rock phrasing? The selective outrage with some of the deadly sins or with certain commandments. It's like, boy, you meet a Christian and they will talk about, you know, how terrible sex before marriage and anything to do with sex and boy, you'll hear it.

But when it comes to things like pride and vanity, I know some pretty prideful Christians. I know some pretty self-righteous Christians. And those are deadly sins too. And the selective outrage and the cherry picking versus like things that they just will like justify, you know, their stubbornness and their pride or their ego. But according to their God and our God, you know, those are deadly sins too. And so, I don't know. But yeah, so lead by example is my point, You know, your parents can say all they want, but when you actually walk to talk, you know,

if that sounded right, and you again, you lead with love, you're turning the other cheek, you're doing what Jesus, you know, they always hear these stories about Jesus and what would he do and how he hung out with prostitutes and sinners and you know, I don't see a lot of Christians doing that sometimes, you know. If Jesus would welcome them with open arms, Jesus wouldn't constantly judge and shame.

Well, and that's what my parents do. That is literally what they do. Love. So they should do that with the people you love too and do it with you. Exactly. I'm like, if you can do it for, literally you have dedicated your life completely,

a hundred percent to that. I think we can do the same, like within the family or even my friends. Just maintain your composure and your calmness and lead with love. That's something you'll have to practice because again, I think when they see their daughter being positive and calm and even when you're upset and hurt, that you're still, you're not fighting with fire, you know? That you do turn the other cheek and you do lead with love. And when your parents act out in a way that's unbecoming of them and you don't,

your parents will see that. There's no, I think, tougher lesson for a parent than their own kids acting in a way that, demonstrating the right behavior when they're not. And that can be a pretty humbling experience. And hopefully, and it sounds like you have some pretty great parents, like despite your differences, like they love you.

Yeah, they're amazing. And they're, you know, just, you're just not seeing eye to eye and obviously they're very passionate about this and they feel right. And it's very tough dealing with righteous parents. But it just comes down to how you handle this. Yeah, it's on me. It's on me, but I also feel like I can't be responsible

for how either of them respond. Yeah, that's why you have those boundaries and you communicate and you set your expectations and you see how they handle it. But just make sure that you're not, you don't... I feel like this has really helped because I think I was so worried about like, oh, my parents meeting him and like, just like the situation itself, instead of thinking about like, no, like me and him need to be aligned, like we're solid. And then this is in my hands. If I present it with love with them, we should be good.

If he is what matters to you, if he's the person that you are even considering, then all that really matters is your guys' connection and your alignment, right? Your communication. Your parents aren't going anywhere. Um, and you just don't live in fear of your parents disappointment. Yeah. Good things. Wow. Alright. Alright. Okay. Was this helpful?

This was helpful. This was helpful. Don't. Still nervous. What are you nervous about? When you say you're nervous, you know, like that the implication is like you're thinking about what could go wrong. I think, again, I spiral a lot and I tend to overthink things clearly. Sure. And so maybe it's not even the like initial meeting itself, but like yeah, obviously I'm super hopeful about my relationship with who I'm with right now and I see a lot of potential for the future and I know like this is going to be kind of like the beginning of a lot of probably choices that my parents will not be in agreement with.

Like if we choose to live together before we're married, which is 100% going to be the case, my parents are extremely radical and that is part of what I admire about them. But then on the other side, I'm like, okay, we need to have a little bit of balance. So I think I'm more worried and nervous about what the repercussions of meeting is going to make it real. And now it's like, okay, oh shit. It's going to be fine. Yeah, it'll be fine.

It'll be fine. Yeah. Stop, stop, try. I know it's easier said than done, but worrying about things that you don't even know are gonna happen. Or worrying about things that won't happen. Like what? You've had your parents disappointed in you in the past.

You survived that, you know? Yeah, like what's new? Right though, so like why are you stressing yourself out over something that you know full well you can get through and honestly doesn't really even affect you all that much anymore? Yeah. It must have been much harder.

It should have stopped being a control freak. Yeah, it must have been much harder. Sure, well, you probably get it from your parents. Yeah. No, honestly. Well, that's something you can work on. You know, you just gotta really focus on what matters and try not to stress about the things

that you don't have control over. You don't have control over your parents' approval, especially if you're willing to make choices as an adult for yourself. It is your life, not theirs, you know? And every parent, I think think has to go through that kind of lesson with their kids. And it just comes down to when their kids

are willing to enforce that boundary. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay, well this is super helpful. All right. Definitely gives me more. Lead by example, don't fire with fire and don't force it. Sounds good. Thank you so much, I really appreciate it.

It'll happen when they're ready. And that will be the best time for it to happen. Sure. OK? OK. All right. All right. Take care.

Please, I'm begging, keep us posted on when it happens. Yes, I will definitely keep you guys updated. All right. Thank you so much, though. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. All right, take care. All right, bye.

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That's B-E-I-S, Travel.com slash V-I-A-L-L. That's BassTravel.com slash V-I-A-L-L. How's it going? That's base travel dot com slash vi all How's it going? Hi, I'm Sophia I'm 31 years old and I need some help figuring out if I should tell my family that I don't want to have kids and my husband's getting a vasectomy. Okay, what makes you feel compelled to tell them? Every time that I speak to my family and just to give you some context, I'm Brazilian. So my whole family, friends are in Brazil. I came to the United States in 2019, met my husband, got married.

So you know, we talk every week. So every time I talk to them, they'll ask me, and so how is it going? And when are you guys having kids? So every time they're asking me about it so I feel like I'm always cornered and I'm just afraid how they're going to react when I give them a definitive answer that I just don't want to have kids. Okay well I definitely don't think your your husband's medical records or any of your family's business. Right, right. Unless he's comfortable with it. No, it's just, I feel like every time, so I feel like if I tell them

that my husband's getting a vasectomy, it's like once I'm done, there is no going back, right? Even though technically it could be reversed. Technically, yeah. But, you know, it's just more of a- So you're basically, you're telling them is kinda like they'll be forced to accept your decision as opposed to trying to change your mind.

Yes, because every time I feel like I have to just say, oh, I don't know, we're just gonna see, we're just waiting, it's not the right time, we're not ready yet. How old are you? The truth is that I'm 31. Okay, you said the truth is what? The truth is I'm very confident in my decision

that I do not wanna have kids. Okay. And it's funny because before in the past, I've always said that I wanted to have children. I said, you know, it's a dream, I wanna get married and have children. But I was also brought up a Christian. I was raised in a more conservative, familiar setting.

And also my husband, I lost my virginity to him. He's my first guy ever and I got married to him. So there's also that. So, you know, the way it was brought up, you know, you got to save yourself or, you know, the right guy and, you know, I did the right thing and then, you know, you guys get married and then you have this perfect marriage and children and, you know, yada, yada, yada. So, but it turns out that that's not how that's not what

I want for me though and yes it turned out that the first guy that I lost my virginity to and got married to yes it worked out he's my husband we have a great relationship but I don't want to grow my family older than that it actually we my husband has a son so I have a stepson so it's not like we don't have any children, right? So I mean, he's not my biological child, but I treat him as my son He lives with us half of the time. So I just don't want to we both are in the same page that We don't want to grow our family older than what we already have like I don't want to birth any kids Like I'm good the way I am,

but obviously my family, they have their own thoughts on it. And I feel like it's my life, I shouldn't have to explain myself to them. I feel like I shouldn't, I don't really owe them an explanation. I feel like every time I speak to them, there is this ongoing commentary. I spoke to my mom this week and she was like,

oh, last week we're all together, our family, and we were debating as to why you don't have any children yet. What'd you say? I just feel like I just didn't say anything. I just laughed and I was just like ignored and moved on the conversation. So your parents have no idea about your desire not to have kids? So I was getting there. So my mom does, and my dad does.

So the one time, well first my mom, when my first, my mom started inquiring me about it, she started saying, oh you're two, you're getting too old to have children, and mind you, I'm 31. I don't even think I'm that old. You're not. But she was like, right.

She's like, you're too old to have children, and you know, you should start thinking about this, because what if you have two children, and you know, you're too old to have children and you should start thinking about this because what if you have two children and you're just going to be even older and they might have health issues because the older you get, then the worse it is. And so she started pressuring me. And then first I told her, well, I don't really know if I want to have more than one. And then she called me selfish because how could I just have one and not two? So they can, you know, because I have two siblings.

So I don't know if her had like, you know, you have more than one, then, you know, they can be each other's friends or company. I don't know what her reasoning is. So and then the second, not the second time, but a few times later, again, she was asking me about it. And then I just said, I said, mom, I don't wanna have kids. And then she started literally just crying. She broke into tears and hung up the phone.

Didn't say anything. My dad, I know my dad wasn't right next to her. So I called my dad because he's usually easier to have these emotional conversations. She gets very emotional and he's more, I feel like I can have these emotional conversations. She gets very emotional and he's more, I feel like I can have these conversations more easily with him. So I called him and I just told him everything.

Why I don't want kids. And then he's like, well, you know, you're too young, you might change your mind. I'm like, dad, I'm not changing my mind. The more I think about it, the more I discuss it with my husband, we've realized we really don't wanna have any children.

But then since then, my mom has not said anything about that conversation that we had. It's like she just ignored that I ever told her that. And every now and then, again, she'll be like, you know, oh, your grandma asked you about you and she's wondering why you don't have any children yet. So that's how, that's where it at. That's the relationship, okay.

Listen, it's a tough dynamic. Yep. And so I feel like we've talked more and more about like parent-child relationships on this show. Right. And it's always, I'm very fascinated in it because people have very strong opinions on both sides, one way or the other.

And maybe no surprise to people, I see both sides at times. You're never gonna always agree with your parents. And they are still your parents. And so religion, we just had a caller, we just got off talk about about, you know, not practicing and not being as devout as their very radical parents and their religion. Right.

You know, but they're still your parents type of thing. And I think sometimes where I, where sometimes I disagree when I talk to the kids, so to speak, and that's usually the case, I'm usually not talking to the parents. It's like, it seems like there's this expectation that parents are supposed to always come around with liking all their kids' decisions. And that's just not realistic. And I, but on the flip side, for example, the previous caller, one advice I gave to her was,

you have to communicate with your parents. And I guess I would give you the same advice, which is something along the lines with mom and dad, where you might have to say, I'm aware of how you feel about our choice not to have children. I'm fully aware. But I'm just communicating with you that if you make all of our interactions about that decision, then you know it's gonna make our whole relationship about your disappointment in us and then eventually it's gonna affect our relationship. Your parents have a right to be disappointed. Your

parents have a right to be sad. And you know honestly your mom has a right to think you're selfish. That's her choice, right? But there's a difference between your mom having the right to feel that and your mom using every interaction that she has with you about that disappointment. And if your mom chooses to act that way, well, you might have to respond

because it's just like, well, I don't wanna talk to my mom because I'm just gonna constantly hear how selfish and disappointed she is in me. I don't wanna talk to people who if I know I'm only gonna talk to them and hear how bad I am. Like, it's just like, who wants to have that relationship? So that's just you communicating with your mom the reality of how you guys can communicate.

But I think there's a difference between understanding that and then you thinking, well, it's wrong for my parents to feel this way. And therefore, you know what I'm saying? Where you... I don't think it's wrong for them to feel that way. Like I acknowledge their feelings. I just don't think that they can use that against me

or use that at every opportunity to try to make me feel bad about my choice. Yeah, so. And that's how I feel like the issue has been, or even to use that to just pressure me. Like, so should I just, you know, sit down with them and have this very serious conversation about it and be one and done, but is it gonna be one and done?

Probably not, no, it's not. It's gonna take time. So. It's gonna take time. So. It's gonna take time. So that's why, and the vasectomy actually, so my husband and I, we don't use any, and here's the thing, so my husband and I don't use any protection.

I'm not on birth control. Okay. Either. So it's not like we're super careful about it, right? I mean, he pulls out, and it's been working. We've been together for five years, and it's been working. Works.

But who's to say it's gonna keep working? Yeah, it might not. But I'm curious, are you doing this, is him getting the vasectomy more about your parents? No, it's because I don't wanna keep risking it every month. That blood might not work anymore. And I don't wanna say this, but the truth is, I'm not saying that, you could change your mind.

It's possible. And I'm not trying to get the vasectomy, if it's meant to be and I'm not even meant to be, you can reverse it. But I have a couple friends, I have a couple women friends who I thought, they were hell bent on never having kids, hell bent, hell bent.

And now that like, I think of one now on their second child you know just sometimes it's just you just never all I'm saying is never know what the future holds but you know you still don't need to be reminded about that every time your parents let you know like honestly what you would said about your parents what they don't realize is them nagging you about it is only gonna make you more resistant to it them making you feel like less than is only gonna make you more defiant.

You know, they're not even helping their cause. If they were just accept your choices, they, you never know. They don't need to, them saying to you, you might change your mind, isn't gonna change your mind. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know if you are changing,

gonna change your mind. You could change your mind, but like that's gonna come from you and your husband. I don't know. I don't know if you are changing, you could change your mind, but like that's gonna come from you and your husband. I don't know, I don't know what life's gonna bring you, you know, and you don't know what life's gonna bring you. I mean, never say never. I mean, I know I'm 31 and you know, I'm young. I definitely don't think I would be changing my mind,

but as you said, could it happen? And of course, like I said, if I get pregnant now, it's not like I'm gonna get an abortion or anything like that, right? Like, you know, I'm gonna have the baby. So, but I really don't, and I'm getting to the point where, okay, I'm risking it every month because we're not really protecting ourselves

the way we should. I'm confident in my decision that I don't want to have any children. And like you said, like it could be reversed. So there is also that. So it's not like it's this definitive thing to do, but I just feel like if I told them this is my decision, I don't want kids, we're starting to discuss the possibility of my husband getting a vasectomy.

It's going to just make them realize how serious I am about this, as opposed to just telling them, oh, I don't know, or oh, when already, or this and that. So I don't have to deal with the constant asking. I have grandparents, my two grandmothers, they're still alive, and my grandfather, he's still alive. I'm the oldest of my siblings and my cousins, right? So my mom had me when I was 16, so pretty young. I was kind of like, grandmothers kind of helped me raise me.

So there is this expectation on me, you know, she's the first born child and you know, she's a woman, got married, you know. So there is this expectation, inherent expectation, you know, that, you know, you're gonna get married and you're gonna have children. So, you know, and then my grandparents still go, Oh, when, when am I going to see my first great grandchild? Right. I'm not getting any younger. So there

is also, I feel like it's a disappointment to not just my parents, but my whole family and grandparents. So it's a very tough comp. So should I even have that conversation? Because honestly, I've taught about it. I could just lie to them and tell them I've been trying and it's not working. Like I could, do I need to be 100% honest about it? Because it's a really tough conversation to have. And when I try to have that conversation with my mom

and she started crying, it was really tough on me because I do feel kind of guilty, even though I don't think I should feel guilty for making this decision. I already took from them getting married in my home country, which is in Brazil. They didn't get to see anything happen. Like, they weren't here.

It was like during COVID. So- Yeah. It's just kind of ironic. I'm a big believer when it comes to, I've always said selfish people will always accuse other people of being selfish. Narcissists will always accuse other people

of being narcissists, you know? Because like, selfish people, to them, everyone else should be thinking about them. And when they're not, that makes the other people selfish. It's like a general, but I think it's kind of funny. It's just kind of funny that you're, you know, like listen, your mom's not the only one who thinks it's selfish for people not to have kids.

So your mom's not alone in that. But I think it's kind of funny that your mom is calling you selfish when she has expectations of what you should do with your own life. It's like your mom's had her life and now she has expectations of your life and she's calling you selfish for not following her goals, which is just kind of funny.

But listen, every parent does that. So I just don't, you're not gonna convince them. Listen, I don't know if I have a clear answer. I don't know if there is a clear answer. I'm not a big believer in lying. So I don't think you owe to your parents and certainly like, I think you're setting yourself up for more problems

if you were to lie to them, you know, about you're trying and things like that because that's not the truth. But if you were to, like I'm not saying, oh, the worst thing you could do. I don't know if I would do it. I don't know if you letting your parents know that your husband getting a vasectomy

is gonna go the way you hoped. I don't know. you letting your parents know that your husband's getting a vasectomy is gonna go the way you hoped. I don't know. I'm not convinced. It might. I could see them handling it that even more poorly. Could you get to a place where you just accept the fact that your parents are gonna kind of be annoying about this topic?

And then as long as you and your husband are confident in your choice, you don't even live with them. You live in literally a different country. I know you talk to them on a regular basis, but what if you just accept that they're just gonna be annoying? I mean, I guess. I mean, obviously I would prefer not to.

It's just annoying. It's not even annoying for me. It's just like every time that they bring this up, for me, emotionally, it's hard for me because like I said, I feel like I've already taken so much from them. It's not like I owe them anything. I don't think children owe anything to their parents, but I can't help but to feel like I've taken so much from them. I don't live in the same country. I did not get married and they didn't get to see me. They've met my husband once in person. So we're going there again this year and I'm sure it's going to be two

weeks of people asking about this. Interventions. Right. So it's not even that it's just annoying, it's just it's emotionally draining to have to go through this and explain myself every single time. And that's why I think maybe if I just give them this hard response to it, and we're gonna have a difficult conversation about it,

but then it might be it. Like it might be- You know your parents better than I do, but I don't- Right, but it might not, like you said, it might not work out that way. They might, yeah, I don't know. It's hard. Well, just, I think the answer is this whole, like,

you feeling emotionally drained. That's kind of like, I guess the way I'm hearing it, that's a you problem in a way. Here you are on one end making this choice that you have every way to make. You don't want to have kids. Despite your parents' expectations and your grandparents' expectations and your great grandparents and whatever, who have your entire family's expectations of your body and your relationship with your husband.

That's your right to have that. But as you're pointing out kind of over and over, despite your frustrations with your husband. That's your right to have that. But you know as you're pointing out kind of over and over, despite your frustrations with your parents, you care about what they think and feel. They matter to you. They're your family. You love them. You know and yeah technically you don't owe your parents anything, but your parents literally gave you life and I'm guessing made a lot of sacrifices for your well-being. You? And so there's that sense of obligation that as children we feel for our parents. And that's just something you're gonna have to figure out.

You know, what are you okay with? There's no wrong answer, you know? But like, you and your husband don't wanna have kids. So you are comfortable in that decision. And so you can't change how your parents feel about it. All you and your husband can do is to continue to be confident in your decision. And you can't help. You're not gonna be able change how your parents feel about it. All you and your husband can do is to continue to be confident in your decision. You can't help.

You're not going to be able to control your parents' disappointment. You can have conversations with your parents about how much they bring it up and things like that. Parents have a way of being passive aggressive, and even if they don't talk about it, it's like you're going to know and feel it. At the end of the day, you're not not gonna be able to change how your parents feel. They may get better at not communicating it and showing their disappointment, but like that that disappointment might always be there, you know? And so you're just gonna have to accept you and your husband that this is our choice, we're confident in our choice,

we know it disappoints people we love, but it is what it is. And you're just going to have to get good at not letting their disappointment bother you. And that's what I mean it's a you problem. You know, you made a choice to meet and get married to your husband outside of Brazil and you know, that's your choice and you got to accept your choice, you know, and you can't control whether people get disappointed or not. You might be able to find ways to make up for things. You're gonna go on a visit and things like that. You're reaching out to your parents, you FaceTime them, you do your best to have a relationship with them.

But at the end of the day, you are making choices, and they're your choices, and not everyone's gonna agree with your choices. And so you just have to say, you know what? I agree with my choices, I'm comfortable with your choices. And so you just have to say, you know what? I agree with my choices. I'm comfortable with my choices. There are a lot of people who don't all agree with my choices.

You know what I'm saying? And as a public figure, I have a lot of opinions about the choices I make. You know, Nally and I, everyone knows there's a bit of an age gap between us. I've heard it over and over from people. I've heard judgments and all these things. And for me to sit there and say,

well, I need everyone else to come around. How do I figure out to get everyone to see our love? How do I figure out how to get everyone to accept our love? How do I, you know, that's never going to happen. I just have to be confident in my choice to be with the person I love. And regardless of people's opinions, you know, and I get families a little different than some stranger on the internet, but at the end of the day, it comes down to you owning your choices and feeling good about them. And the more you do, if they're gonna come around, it's gonna come around because you just,

you're good at owning it. And like, yes, you're a human being, you're gonna feel a little bit of guilt, but there's nothing you can do to change how your parents feel. They have the right to feel how they feel. Yeah, I agree with you. And like I said, I do acknowledge their feelings. But then also don't I have the right to not being like questioned every time about it?

Yeah, and that's a conversation with mom and dad. And that's the thing. Yeah, and that's where I'm thinking like what boundary should I like, so should I just sit down and say, hey, like you said, we're comfortable in this decision, please don't bring this up at every opportunity. You can ask. I think it's more- If there's any changes, I'll let you know. Sure.

Should I be more straightforward about it instead of just saying, I don't know, we'll see or- I think you find the middle ground. You know, I don't wanna make excuses. Yeah, I don't wanna make excuses. It's more. But not mentioning that if I said to me like you said, like. Yeah, to me, I don't know, to me that's,

that's between you and your husband. That's kinda my call, but. Right. I think it's just kinda pointing out the obvious. And the obvious is, is that as someone who cares about what your parents think, whether you want to or not, them making your whole relationship

about their disappointment in you is gonna affect that relationship. And so I think you calmly pointed out to your mom and dad, just like, listen, I'm sorry. It does break my heart that I'm disappointing you guys, but this is our choice and we're confident in that choice. And you're right, dad, things could change, but right now they're not going to.

And so I'm just asking, you don't make our entire relationship about your disappointment because if you do, it's just gonna affect how much I reach out because who wants to reach out to people who you only hear the disappointment in? And you're just kind of pointing out the obvious to your parents. It's not a threat.

I'm hoping that our relationship is more than just hearing about how disappointed you are. And then you kind of see how your parents handle that. Because the reality is, is if your parents do only talk to you about their disappointment, then you might be like, you know, when you're like, yeah, I haven't called mom and dad this week, you might be like, you know what, I'm too busy.

I don't, I just, I'm not in the mood. I just don't feel like hearing that. Right, I mean, no, we have conversations about all their things. It's not, it doesn't revolve 100% about that, but you know, it's always there, and every time it does, it's the same thing. Yeah, the part that-

The same questions and- Yeah, the part of you knowing they're disappointed and you feeling bad without it getting brought up is that that's the thing that you have to work on. Because you can't change that. And it's like what you deep down want is to not only not hear about it from your parents, but you don't want to feel that guilt that they don't even communicate. You don't want to... Because you have it, you know, like you said like I I took so much from them.

It's like listen those were your choices you got to accept them. Right right that makes sense. I think it's a little bit of communicating with your parents but also just owning your choices and accepting it and not feeling bad about it. Okay yeah I guess I guess it makes sense. I guess I do have you know I need to have a more like just solid conversation with them about it and just just really like come clear and let them know this is a choice I'm making now and like you said yes it could change in the future. And maybe that's what you said. This could change but like I can tell you, mom and dad, you badgering me about this isn't gonna help.

So I'm aware of how you feel. And if it does change, it won't be because of you guys badgering me. It'll be because I've changed my mind about the life I want or that we want. It'll be a decision that as a couple we make, it won't be out of guilt from you guys. Mm-hmm.

Your parents shouldn't want you to have a kid just for them. That would be selfish. Oh yeah, right. You know? Oh yeah, and that's the irony in it, honestly, because I know my mom, like, should tell me, oh, I want to be a grandmother, you know? You have siblings, don't you? Yeah, you have a sibling?

I do, yeah. They're younger, though. They're seven years younger and then 11 years younger, so they're not gonna have any children anytime soon. You never know, you never know. Oh yeah, right. Seven years younger, they're still an adult. Even 11 years younger, you're 20 years old and what, 25, 24?

Yeah, yeah, 21 and then 25, I think, yeah. You never know. I mean, yeah, it could happen, but again, you know, I'm the older, like the oldest, you know, and. Well, whenever they have kids, they. You never know. I mean, yeah, it could happen, but again, I'm the older, like the oldest. Sure. Well, whenever they have kids, they'll probably shut up. That's what I'm hoping for. And then just the other thing would be,

do I even bring this up with the rest of the family? Because it's not really between me and my parents. It's like, I have a big family in Brazil, and like I said, grandparents, uncles, aunts, and you know, they'll ask me. They'll ask me at every opportunity they have, should I even disclose this to my whole family and just say, honestly, I've even just got so tired of being asked the same question or hearing the same jokes. Do I even disclose that to everyone or do I keep it more just between me and my... It just comes down to your ability to handle the annoying jokes, you know, or the annoying comments.

And again, you know your family best, so no matter what, you're not going to be able to prevent them talking about you. Chances are your mom, you know, so if you send in a group chat, you know, everyone's gonna have an opinion. You're not gonna be able to affect that. So, and you sending your group chat, you know, might make your next encounter with them that much more intense, because that's when the really interventions might happen. So I don't have a clear answer of what's best,

but all I can say is what matters most is you just being confident in your decision and not feeling like you owe them and accepting their disappointment. Okay. And giving you and your husband's permission to not feel bad about it. Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

Especially when I was younger and I grew up in a very Catholic household. My parents are way more accepting of all their kids nowadays. But when I was in high school, my parents were very devout and very judgmental. If, you know, and that was tough, you know, Catholic guilt's a real thing.

And I just got good at just accepting my choices and not letting my parents' opinions bother me. And eventually my parents just realized it didn't bother me, so they stopped trying to guilt me. Because it was didn't have an impact. Yeah I mean I know how they feel about it. I know what they think about it. I don't really care that they think I'm selfish or this or that. Well you do care and that's okay and that's human and I can assure you your mom knows you your parents know you well. And I can assure you again for mom knows you, your parents know you well. And I can assure you, again, for the example I just gave,

our parents know us better than anyone, especially as kids, right? And maybe as you grow up and mature, they'll know you less and less, that's entirely up to you. But they know how to get under our skin. They know how to manipulate us. They know how to guilt us, you know? Right, right. They had 18 years of practice. So your mom knows

it bothers you that she's disappointed and that's why she brings it up. The moment you really don't feel bad about your parents disappointment, that will be when you start hearing about it less and less. Because it's just gonna fall on deaf ears. Right. But anytime if I feel like I can get through to someone I'm gonna keep trying. But then isn't that just like how do I show them that like wouldn't that just be ignoring it and not having a conversation about it? Sure yeah potentially or or just telling them and say please respect my wishes that that's you know how you kind of communicate everyone to everyone. Yeah, I'm not a big, like,

I've never sent out a mass text about my choices to anyone. Well, we am either. I never felt the need to explain myself to the masses, you know? Okay. So if you're asking me what I would do if I were you, I wouldn't send the group text. I wouldn't tell them about the vasectomy. I would live my life. I would give my parents love,

and I would go out of my way to have a relationship with them and when this topic came up, I would ignore it, I would just dismiss it, that's what I would. I mean, if that were me, I would just let them get it out and not let their disappointment bother me. So that's what I would do if I were you, but I'm not you. So, and I'm not saying what I would do is right, it's just what I would do. And it has worked for me, I will say,

when it comes to these types of challenges, when it comes to parents or pressure, or just being a public figure, it has worked for me. Okay, yeah, that's helpful. I think I'm the right path then, because it's kind of what I have been doing. I just didn't know if maybe, you know,

it was time for me to have this big conversation about it or just keep doing what I've been doing. Because obviously, I mean, it hasn't really worked because they keep bringing it up, but maybe it's just with time, it will just die down. Probably, yeah. But yeah, but. And if not, you just have will just die down. Probably, yeah. But, yeah, but. And if not, you just have to kind of get good

at ignoring it. Right, that makes sense, thank you. All right, well, I'm sorry you have to go through, it's kind of annoying, but. That's fine. Just accept your choices and be confident in them. At the end of the day, yes, sometimes we disappoint our parents, sometimes we move across the world for love.

And yeah, if my daughter does that, I guess I'm sure I'll be probably sad. But you know, what I want for my daughter is to make choices that make her happy and have her have a fulfilled life. And that's what matters most to me. And that's, at the end of the day, that sounds like what you're doing and you sound happy. And I think at the end of the day, that's what your parents are gonna appreciate the most. Right, awesome. Okay. Thank you, appreciate it, yep.

All right, take care. Yep. All right, bye-bye. Special thanks to Dr. Orna for her time. Be sure to check out Couples Therapy on Paramount and Showtime out. Friday, May 31st. Friday, May 31st. We'll see you next time, or we'll just see you tomorrow.

Bye.