The Viall Files - E768 GD w/ Micah Lussier of Perfect Match

Episode Date: June 26, 2024

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper, with Perfect Match’s Micah Lussier. Today we bring you a bonus episode, and boy is it filled with JUICY tea. How was Micah’s time on Perfect Match? Did she believe Harry or Melinda? Where is she now with Kaz? “Idk where these men went to acting school, but they went somewhere before getting on this show”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0J6DW1KeDX6SpoVEuQpl7z?si=c35995a56b8d4038 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @micah.lussier @ciararobinson @leahgsilberstein @justinkaphillips @dereklanerussell Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 21:07 - Kaz 43:08 - Other Guys 47:53 - Izzy 50:59 - After Filming 54:33 - Elys 01:00:57 - Harry 01:11:01 - Texting Office Hours 01:42:58 - Post Call Questions 01:48:19 - Outro

You're crazy. Micah, welcome back to the Valve House. Thanks for having me. How are you? How was your heart? I'm great. Oh, my heart. Well, my heart is doing a little better than the last time I was here. Okay. Definitely a ride, but watching, watching perfect match back. It definitely feels like a fever dream. I feel pretty far removed from it at this point.

How long ago did you guys film that? Which I feel like is important information for all the, I think I had a lot of people have a hard time, like there are a lot of shit went down and I feel like a lot of feelings were hurt and a lot of people got fucked over the experience. But some of you see more over it than others. But that probably is a product of of it happening a long time ago.

100 percent. So it filmed, I think, in August. So last summer in August, I believe. So a good a good chunk of time. I think a lot of people that are having intense reactions to the show, it's finding out stuff maybe they didn't know, or like feelings that they didn't know coming up. For me, watching it, I was like, yeah, that's what happened. It was pretty perfect.

I was like, well, there's that, but... So you weren't really surprised by much in terms of things that people said or did behind your back? I think for me, I wasn't shocked. Anything that happened between Kaz and I, I knew it happened. It was all in front of me. It couldn't really get worse than how I felt in the moment. So it wasn't like, oh my God, he was doing that.

It's like, no, no, no, that was right in front of me and I saw that. The thing that was shocking was seeing a lot of the other casts, like, their experience with Kaz and I, I definitely didn't know that. I was staying in my own lane for the most part, focusing on my relationship, so I didn't know that people were so hyper fixated on ours and like trying to cause chaos within us.

Interesting. Yeah, I had no idea. And do you think that's a product of they were in fact hyper fixated on you or do you feel like it was, I mean, cause don't you, when you guys are making the show, you kind of all talk about each other, right? Like I'm assuming you're being asked about

Elise and Justin or Elise and whoever, or Elise and Harry, or do you feel like after watching it back, you two had more of a target on your back than say other couples? I don't know if it's a target. I really don't know what it was. I think back to it. I'm like, do they think we're the strongest?

Did they literally just not like me? Did they like what was it? I literally don't know. I know that I wasn't necessarily running around the house, trying to break people up or trying to like cause chaos. Like I was more worried about keeping my man by me because if he wasn't like he was gone. But I mean, it is a game. I think that I look back to some of the more strategic moments or things like that. It's

like maybe when we're in the boardroom, when you're in the boardroom, you're forced to, you know, set people up on dates and you're forced to like have that strategy. The two options are either test a relationship or bring in someone who you think would be a really good match. Those are the two options. When hanging out in the villa, you don't necessarily have to make those decisions. You don't have to be nosy in other people's relationships. That was a choice. Interesting. Okay. I have so many questions about perfect match, but before we really dive into that and kind of talk about what happened after perfect match, I am curious, it's just about, you know, your life and journey, if you will, from the last time we got to see you on TV on Love is Blind till now. Because obviously on

Love is Blind, you had a pretty intense experience. Yeah. Right? Oh my gosh. On both like the romantic relationship side of things. And then obviously you were a bit of a villain. Yeah, you could say that. Yeah. I think that's fair. And got caught up into some like drama. Who was the girl that you were friends with? Irina. Irina. Irina, yeah. Do you still talk to her?

Yeah, we still talk once in a while. That was quite the experience you had. It was quite the experience. I actually had kind of like a full circle moment yesterday. I was driving down the street in LA and I was feeling really grateful for life and I was listening to Lana Del Rey, so I'm gonna kind of end my feelings.

Oh yeah, what song? Yeah, I was listening to video games, duh, at first. Cause that's how I always start off my Lana like that. Cause it's like, okay, this is embarrassing now. Now I'm simping myself a little bit out, but I always picture me getting married and walking down the aisle. Okay.

No, that's how I picture. But then it went to the song, I forgot what it's called. And I was just thinking about how much my life has changed in the past year. It's like last year when Love is Blind came out, I was quite literally fighting for my life, trying to drag myself out of the trenches of just public ruin and feeling really low and bad about myself and kind of giving into

what the perception was in me. And now I just feel completely different, I'm much more confident in myself and excited about where I am. That's awesome. Oh, that's great. That's, that's amazing. What, what do you attribute that to?

Because not everyone can go on reality TV, have the experience that you had, which is, you know, certainly you've talked about mistakes you've made and we're not here to relitigate that. But regardless of being able to recognize your mistakes, often is the case, the audience reactions to mistakes that we all have made or we've all been mean girls, we've all had to apologize for saying things that we regret, but the internet will act as if you are a certain type of person and you were forever that person.

And that can be very difficult to process and hardening your mental health. How did you pick the pieces back up and use that opportunity to kind of, I don't know, maybe make some changes or reflect? Like what were those changes that you made and how did you become better for it? There's a lot of different parts to that, obviously. I think the first is realizing, when it comes to mental health and it comes to kind of realizing who you are, it's like one, it's a confidence thing. Two, it's realizing that the people

are gonna have a perception of you, but that's also the character that was portrayed to them, and that's okay. I think sometimes people think that people on reality TV are kind of frozen in time. So it's like when they see me on Perfect Match, it's like I popped right from the Love is Blind set and I'm still, you know, that exact person, how I was perceived or even how I

was. But it's, you know, it's been time, it's been years at this point and people do grow. It was definitely a learning experience. And I think what was big for me was just being confident in myself and being able to continue to put myself out there and hope that people get to see all the different parts of me. That's awesome. I do think it was to very different like people that we saw from Love is Blind to Perfect Match. I do think you on Perfect Match is who you are to your core and maybe Love is Blind was a side of you that maybe someone else brought out or just you just you said some things that maybe

a lot of people took out of context. But I do think who you are on Perfect Match is like who you are. Well thank you, I'm happy that people do get to see a different side of me. But I mean, it is reality TV and when you go on these shows, the show isn't about you, it's not about showing who you are, it's about showing a storyline

and it's about being entertaining. And so I can't go on a show and expect, you know, the audience to understand every single part of me. I'd be an idiot to think that. Yeah, no one is like in an ensemble cast to your point, like no one's the main character. When we watch it as characters on, I'm sure you learned this too. I think a lot of people actually don't learn this, but we all go on these shows and we kind of expect the show to be aired From our main character point of view when you realize you you probably realize pretty quickly and love is blind And I'm getting I wonder you probably almost probably a blessing too

Because as someone who first experienced on TV for different reasons when very similar to yours where it was like oh my god I did not expect to have like, you know, no one wants to be a villain. You go in and you think you're fine and then you go out and then you see the final cut, you're like, holy fucking shit. 100%, that was what happened. I was like, wait, who's that? Or even if you see yourself. Just the audience's reaction to it, right?

But that can be a blessing because then you, if you survive that, like you did, you, I think, can go into future experiences a lot more mentally prepared with your eyes wide open about what this experience really is versus what you think it should be. Because I think a lot of people go in thinking that they're the main characters and they're the only story that matters is their story relative to all the other stories and like that's just not how it ever works or how it's aired.

And then people kind of get pissed or start screaming at people. There's no way to see like every single part of your story. There's so many hours of footage in every single different room and it's like we'd be here for years trying to watch all of that. So it's like you can only see bits and pieces and then people are going to draw conclusions from what they see. Given your experience on Love is Blind and the work that you did to recover from it, was there a part of you that wanted to have another shot at redemption or showing people that this person you saw on Love is Blind, certainly, even if it is part of you, it's

not your entire side. Maybe even if you were to own your behavior on Love is Blind, you could say, yeah, I made a mistake and sure, that's a part of me, but there's a lot more than me than just a couple moments that you're judging my entire personality on. 100%, I think there was two options for me. It was either crawl in a hole and never show your face again,

or it was try to give people the opportunity to understand you or to see at least different sides of you. I always say with Love is Blind, the way it was shown, people can have their perceptions of what it was, but I think in reality really came down to an immaturity. And the thing about an immaturity is you can grow from that and you can change from that.

And I did over time and over working on myself. And it was something that I was hopeful that people would be able to see. Did I know they would? No, I mean, I didn't know. There was perfect match or anything can go a million different ways. that I was hopeful that people would be able to see. Did I know they would? No, I mean, I didn't know. There was perfect match or anything can go a million different ways.

So this one I was crossing my fingers. I was like, can it really get worse? How many years has it been since Love is Blind? Filming. Over two years. That's crazy. Yeah, over two years. I think when it comes to the Love is Blind universe

or like Ultimatum or the perfect match match like the wait time that you guys have to go through like filming the Bachelorette is a quick turnaround. They film early, they film spring, late summer. You have to wait like a month, six weeks before it's on air. That's insane. Bachelor, they start filming like usually September, always end like right before Thanksgiving. And so then they have to wait till January, which still is nothing.

You guys are waiting. That's literally nothing, a full year. Yeah. It seems like some seasons are waiting more. Oh, 100%, I'm pretty sure some wait multiple years. Which is, it's gotta be a trip to like, go through this trauma. Filming can be traumatic.

Recover, feel like you're fine. Then it comes back out on air. Re-triggered. Recover. Feel like you're fine. Then it comes back out on air. Re-triggered. Not knowing how it's gonna be aired, how the audience is gonna perceive you. That must be a trip. How do you handle stuff like that?

Oh, I was living my life. I was like, yeah, no, I mean, this is gonna come out. It's gonna be chill. And then all of a sudden it was like, I was hit by a bus and I was like, I was like, can we go back? I was like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Whoa! I'm like, I was hit by a bus and I was like, I was like, can we go back? I was like, wait a minute, whoa!

I'm like, wait, what happened? So it's definitely interesting reliving those past experiences when you do feel like you moved on. I would say watching Love is Blind was a lot harder for me because there was so much real love and real, real emotion when perfect match, everything was a little more surface level, so I would say it was harder for me to watch Love is Blind and watch that relationship versus this one.

Oh, that made me think of something. There must have been several moments on Love is Blind where you thought to yourself, what am I actually, almost like an out-of-body, like you're feeling these intense feelings, you were considering marriage. Yeah. You're not an idiot. Yeah. You must have thought at times, wow, I'm considering getting married, but like, you know, just the intensity of the environment,

doing Perfect Match, and it being a very different environment, very a la Bachelor in Paradise, more casual. Did you feel more in control of your emotions on Perfect Match because of the intensity of Love is Blind or no? Honestly, kind of the opposite. I think on Perfect Match, I was like,

I was like, oh my God, I'm not getting any direction here. Like I'm starting to spiral. I'm like, where am I supposed to go? Who am I supposed to talk to? And I feel like Love is Blind was much more, like you have that point in the pods and stuff where you're deciding who you're gonna be with. And once you're with that person, like you're set,

this is your journey. These are the steps that you're gonna go through to get to the end. You know, like you're gonna go through this and once you're with that person, like you're set, this is your journey, these are the steps that you're gonna go through to get to the end. You know, like you're gonna go through this and then you get married. And so it's like, you kind of know what to expect. Do you have those moments of out of body experience? Oh, I mean, I don't know how I couldn't, I was with Paul and every five seconds he was like, what are we doing?

I was like, no, literally. So it was different, but it was a lot more casual. So I don't know, I can go back and forth on that. Interesting. I definitely didn't feel in control. I'll let you know that much. I didn't know what's going on. I was panicking. Yeah, I was freaking out. It was that a yeah, we'll get into Kaz. Yeah. Have you talked to Paul at all? Paul? No, I haven't talked or seen Paul. He's not dating your friend.

He's not being my friend at this point. As far as I know, no, I'm just kidding. No, I haven't talked or seen Paul. He's not dating your friend? He's not dating my friend at this point. As far as I know, no, I'm just kidding. No, I have not seen or spoken to him. Oh, yeah. Didn't he touch her back or something, and everyone was like, oh my god. And the internet exploded. It seemed I was, I'm not much of a.

I think we chatted about it last time. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I felt like there was some. Nick fell into the trap. I felt, I was some shenanigans. Nick fell into the trap. That looked fishy. I think Paul is just like a handsy person. Now he sounds like Harry. No, literally. Is there a Netflix hierarchy or how high school is the Netflix reality TV universe?

I find it really fascinating. You gotta have Love is Blind, which from where I stand, best reality TV show on television. I don't care where, what Netflix, ABC, Hulu, Bravo. I'm sorry, it's just this, people are considering getting married. Yeah. So.

That's taking it all the way to the... Yeah, that's taking it far. If there was one that was like, we're forcing you to have a child, that would... That's the only way you can surpass Love is Fine. So now you guys will be having kids. And it's very popular. I believe it's like one of the most, if not the most watched show on Netflix.

It's Crushing Life. And then you have other shows maybe less popular, but then you have like Harry, who came from season one of Too Hot to Handle. He got a ton of followers from that. Too Hot to Handle obviously has like a lot of traditionally attractive people, and they seem, and like even the guys seem to very like

fuck boyish, and they come in with a kind of a certain confidence, a certain attitude. And I feel like sometimes that kind of goes up against the like the love is blind people who come in who are like we're on love is blind, we're like the cool kids. And I feel like there's a lot of butting of heads of like who's in a higher position of authority. Like the people who are coming from the more popular television show

versus some of the other people who are like, well, I'm on Too Hot to Handle and I'm hot and I can do this. And like, what was that universe like? And what was like the high school dynamics? Did you experience that? Did you witness it? Oh, 100%.

Can you walk us through all that? I think honestly, it wasn't necessarily like who's cooler, but I think there was a very big contrast in personalities. I think the people that are coming from Too Hot to Handle, or even coming from any other reality show besides Love is Blind, they're used to not putting on a show, but they're used to being like, boom, bang, loudest in the room.

This is how you get attention. This is how you do it, is like by being outlandish. And love is blind is kind of opposite. It's like you don't have to put on a big show or be the loudest in the room to be successful. You know what I mean? And love is blind, it's like, it's more having conversations like what your intentions are and those kinds of things

to have to handle, maybe it's being the hottest, maybe it's being the most aggressive when it comes to finding, you know, it's like completely different. And I think that definitely trickles into perfect match. And it was a big culture shock or something to me. I was, yeah. It's like a who's dick is bigger competition. Yeah, 100%.

And I'm not used to like leading with sexuality, I guess. And so it felt like I was constantly trying to get to that point where I could maybe get to their level, because it seemed to be those were the things that were like working. I don't know how to explain it, but it's like something that I was not used to doing in my previous show.

So I did feel a little out of place, and I think a lot of the people that come from Love is Blind feel that way as well. Yeah, it seemed obvious that way. Where it's just like, and you make a great point in terms of you don't need to be showy or performative on Love is Blind to be a star. It's such a natural, and that's what makes the show so good.

It's organically creates insane amount of drama where like to hunt a handle, it's like, okay, we get it. You all have washboard abs to handle it's like okay we get it you all have washboard abs And it's like the people who are aggressive on love is blind are the ones who like don't get a match Like they don't end up with someone they like everyone hates them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like not who's the hottest It's like who's the most genuine who's here for the right reasons? Where's the real connections? It's like very different like a Laura really enjoyed watching her this season But I feel like it's I feel like in her like I don't know what you guys call him I call him ITMs in the moment kind of things and like she was

just like I feel like they set her down for a half hour and she just gave up like a bunch of like one liners like bring it on! You know and all these like we're gonna rock it tonight like she's just saying all these like catchphrases and they're just like yeah just give us another one because it was always Alora Rocket tonight. Like she's just saying all these like catchphrases. And they're just like, yeah, just give us another one. Because it was always Alora, like giving these fuzzy catchphrases. That's her.

She's just a buzzy person. She's, I'm absolutely in love with her. I think she's the most amazing person ever. She seems like a delight. You live with Alora right now, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we were staying together. And now she's probably gonna end up going back to the UK

within like a few weeks, but yeah, her brother's coming and her best friend but we've been living together and it's been great but that's like very accurate she's kind of like that too she just has really really great energy and I think that's like one of the things that is being shown the most with her but how is she doing like what's her and steven what's honestly the thing about her and Stevan, in my opinion, was actually the worst post-show, because I think that she went through it more than anyone.

I want her to be able to give her own recollection of what happened and her to be able to share her side of the story, because in my opinion, it was the worst ending. Yeah, and I don't think that I would be able to represent it enough as well as it needs to be shared. Interesting. So, but it seems like maybe she left the show with great expectations of the potential

of their relationship. Right. And Stevan maybe allowed her or played in to those expectations. And then proceeding filming, he maybe showed a different side. 100%. I don't know where these men went to acting school, but they went somewhere before getting on this show. I'll tell you that much.

I don't know what was going on in that house, but I will say for the majority of every couple you saw, there was a different vibe in the house and on the camera than it ended up being in real life post-show. Wow. Okay. Like the camera's cut and they said, time to check out. Like, let me collect my check, it's time to go home.

Is, uh, Steven and Alar both, I know, obviously Alar is, but is Steven in LA? Is he, where, I don't know. Alar is here for now, but she still lives in the UK, and Steven, yeah, he lives in LA. He's in LA. From what I know. I honestly don't know much about him.

They all seem like they all had sex with each other. Huh, yeah, isn't that what you do on that one? I don't, to be honest, not my favorite show. The whole thing is that you can't, like, touch each other, right, and you lose money for, like I don't, to be honest, not my favorite show. The whole thing is that you can't touch each other, right? And you lose money for doing, like just kissing or touching each other. Interesting.

But I think off camera they all bugged. Well, I mean, according to Harry, him and Stevan have- I cannot even believe that that was on television. The fact that he said what he said about Holly. I cannot believe that. was on television. The fact that he said what he said about Holly. I cannot believe that. My jaw has never dropped. Has Holly spoke up about that at all? Has she said anything?

Or what's been the reactions? I have no idea. I cannot even believe that that came out of someone's mouth. I feel like there's so many things that were said that were just so character revealing that it's like, yeah. Yeah. And not even like, you're not even talking about your own yeah it's like him saying like oh and steven yeah like why I think that that says so much more about him than it

says about her no like okay wild yeah I'd Yeah, fuck it. Fuck it, we've all. Yeah, very short. You and Kaz. Oh. Oh. We did talk to Kaz already. I saw some clips on TikTok. I didn't-

It was early. We interviewed him before we kind of saw a lot of stuff. I will say, I met Kaz at the Netflix party. Oh yeah, I don't think I saw you there. Handsome guy. Okay, well yeah. He's a beaut. What do you think, what do you think I was,

why do you think I was hanging around? Oh. Well, what? I'm really curious talking to you about it because I think when it comes to like, from what we're seeing, again, I haven't had an opportunity to talk to Jess, I haven't had an opportunity to talk to Harry, I haven't had an opportunity to talk to Harry,

I haven't had an opportunity to talk to you about either of those people. But you know, we always were sort of the right to say, hey, this is a reality TV show, maybe things are edited, maybe it's dramatized for effect. I'm always willing to be wrong about people's character from, I don't wanna judge people's character from the show.

That being said, sometimes, you know, like we just talked about, it can be fairly revealing. And when I look at you in Kaz, like clearly he's a very charming guy, he's good looking, he certainly demonstrates a lot of fuckboy energy, for sure. There also seems to be times where I feel like you could have maybe protected your heart a little bit better than you did.

I'm curious, this is my read on Kaz, so I'm curious what you think, having gotten to know him, been in the house, is that not that he's without fault, you know, he's made a lot of selfish decisions and certainly fuck boy decisions, but kind of like you pointed out, very different than Stevan or Harry from what we saw. Cass kind of just, he took the approach of, it seemed like, I thought this was a TV show about like, trying out different things and dating different people and talking to different women.

Maybe there's a make out here, we're playing silly games. I'm just gonna embrace this very crazy atmosphere. Kind of like on Bachelor, you never think you're gonna date the same person or have multiple dates or once you get to the final three, there's these fancy suites, you have all these overnights and you just kind of tell multiple dates or, you know, once you get to the final three, there's these fantasy speeds, you have all these overnights, and you just kind of tell yourself, I don't know, this is the rules of the show,

so I'm guessing I'm gonna play by the rules. And Kaz almost seemed like, well, despite demonstrating fuckboy behavior, he didn't like lie. You know, he wasn't lying about his behavior, he wasn't going behind your back. Now we can sit there and debate whether, how unsensitive that could have been. But I don't look at Kaz as like dangerous

for people to date, you know? I don't look at him as if like, even if you have strong boundaries, even for the people who date him, who have done the work, they're still susceptible to being led on, a la like a Harry, because you can do the work with someone like Harry and Steven, but if they pretend to be someone they're not,

you're going to believe different things, setting you up for major disappointment, where someone like Kaz, yeah, he's incredibly good looking, he's got the accent, he's got the accent, he's sexy, all these things, but he very much is like, this is what I'm doing and I'm gonna give you the opportunity to turn it down or not. Like, is that a fair?

I think that parts of that are true. I think that, mainly the fact that he's hot and charming, like obviously he's hot and charming. So that's what I agree on. So that's all true that he's hot and charming, like obviously he's hot and charming. So that's what I agree on. So that's all true about what you said, is he's hot and charming. So you're right, yeah, he is hot and charming. Anyways, no, actually Kaz is,

I really do think he's a good person. Like I'm not gonna sit here and say he's not a good person because that wouldn't be true. Do I think he's someone that I would ever wanna be in a real relationship with? Absolutely not. And there's multiple reasons why I can go deep into it, but there is a lot of things you don't see. One of the main things you don't see is some of the conversations we had about where we were at and how are we progressing. There's a difference between wanting to mingle

and do all these things, but doing it with an intention of getting to know someone. And if your head is turned and you wanna get to know them, okay, let's go have a conversation and say that's what you wanna do. It was never put in front of me that we were going to explore other options.

And I think one of the main issues was that it was kind of giving hypocrite. Like I think about one day we were in the vans, we'd be cooped up in these vans for hours before the competition. And all the girls were talking, I think it was like one of the first competitions and they were like, who would you want to see come in? Who would you want to see come in? And we were all saying people that we'd want to see come in.

I said someone and one of the girls- Who'd you say? I actually said Cole from Love is Blind. Okay. So one of the girls went and told Kaz like, oh, Micah said she'd be interested. It was like an explosive moment multiple times over and over again. Well, you said this, you said something about Cole.

Like you, what about Cole? What about Cole? And it was like, you're over here putting the entire show on your back talking to every girl in the house anytime they come in. Yeah. But I'm not allowed to say like, oh, I would be interested in seeing him.

So it was like, I felt like, okay, well, if he's feeling that way about that, okay, then like, let's lock in here. Like, I'm gonna move forward with you. I'm gonna keep my eyes for just you. When he had one eye here and one eye there the whole time. So it's like, what the heck am I supposed to do? Like, are we this or are we that?

I think it was the lack of transparency and just like the communication that was like our biggest downfall. I don't think he's a bad person by trying to talk to other people. I just wish that it would have gone a different way and been more apparent to me what was going on. Did you, or I guess just the show in general,

like were people defining relationships? I know like it's like, do you wanna match tonight? You know, that's part of the show, but were were people defining relationships? I know it's like, do you wanna match tonight? That's part of the show, but were there people actually being like, hey, are we a thing? I know within the confines of the show, you might be broken up, but how much DTRing was there, if any,

in terms of, let's say, if you were to go back and play it differently, could you have gone to Kaz and been like, hey man, I know we're on a show, let's say if you were to go back and play it differently, could you have gone to Kaz and been like, hey man, like I know we're on a show, but I really like you, and like, more than just I wanna be your perfect match. Let's be exclusive. Like, I don't, I am not interested,

I don't care who walks through that door, like, I only want you. Yeah, right, so. Could you have said that, or did you say that? Yeah, so our second time we won the challenge, we had the date and it was the date where we went to the cenote. Mm-hmm. So, I sat down to kind of...

I wanted to like figure out what was going on, because at this point, I'm still getting like jerked around in every direction, like I have whiplash, I'm like, am I with this guy or not? I can't tell. And I was like, do you see a future here? Like, do you see this progressing outside of the house? Had he have said no, I would have packed up my little bag and moved to the next room.

But like, he was like, yes, like, I see this being something. And I took him at his word. I thought that he was genuine. And that's how I moved forward. And that's how I continued to move throughout the rest of the show. So you moved that way and he didn't, obviously, clearly. Yeah.

Can I also ask, how long is the filming process? How long are you going through this experiment? I think we were there for like a month. For a month. Okay. I just wanted to know how quickly it's moving. Yeah, so it's all moving pretty fast. I don't think any part of me was like, so where's the ring?

You know, it never was, but it was like, it's intense. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's still intense. There's a lot of feelings. You're also in this weird like incubator of, you know, you're doing a lot of different things that would make a relationship move a lot quicker than it would on the outside. And your environment's so isolated too. A hundred percent. And I look at it and I look at me on the screen and I see that he's doing all these things and I watch myself watch it. And I obviously, I'm not an idiot. I'm realizing that it's not great.

On the outside world, the first time that would have happened I would have moved away. That would have been it. I don't know you time to move on with my life. But when you're put in this situation it's the best of a bad situation. There was no one else in the house I was really interested in at that point. Had I not closed myself off earlier, maybe

I would have made other connections. But at that point it was like, well, I like him. What am I going to do now? Yeah. Did you guys have sex? You and Cas? Oh my God. Duh. I don't know. What do you think? Did you see him? He's hot and charming. I'm like, I don't know. What do you think? Did you see him? I'm like, I don't know the way you're talking about

He's hot like seriously. Yeah, I bet I'm like damn I think that was another thing that I just really firm you guys had sex So on the record Go ahead and quote me go ahead. Yes At what point so okay, that's what I was gonna say. I think when you start to see the emotions get really heightened of me being in shock and in terror that he's still talking to people, it's because at that point we were like... Intimate.

Intimate. So you had sex prior to him making out with Holly in front of your face? Like Christine and Holly were in the house. That was the same night that he picked Christine and matched with her. This is after Boys and Girls Day. I don't know if we had yet.

I think in the morning, we were hooking up. I don't think we had had sex until. How it airs is that you guys have a pretty long, you guys are pretty much have eyes, you guys are matching multiple episodes. Towards the end, they play this game. Kaz makes out with Holly. Right.

And it's seemingly in front of your face. You're appalled. It looks like he's cheating on you, you know, from the audience standpoint. Did it feel like he cheated on you? It felt like he was cheating on me. I was like, is that my man? I was like.

I got you. Um. Cas gets really defensive. No, it was like my fault. Slightly gaslighty a little bit. He's like, well I'm just playing a game. He kind of accused you of talking to other men. And then instead of matching with Holly, no, no, no.

No, no, Christine. He matches with Christine. He spends the night with her. Seemingly looks like they fuck. That's how it looks. I don't know. Do you know? We don't know.

I don't think I was even told that they kissed. Oh, they kissed. Yeah. So it's like this. I know you haven't seen it yet. She's in that bikini in, I don't know if you've seen it, but it looked like she was stalking him that whole day. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it was scary. Like if that was, if reverse roles of a guy, there's that one. I've seen some of my friends though. It's like around every corner, Christine was like, hey. Hey. And then he was like, um, a little uncomfortable. Then like, another corner, hey. Just like legs open.

Yeah, I don't know. Sex eyes. Just sex eyes. Ready to fucking go. Barely any clothes on. Yeah, if that was a man, terrifying. Terrifying. Probably prison. Probably prison. Barely any clothes on. Yeah, if that was a man, terrifying. Terrifying. Probably prison.

Probably prison, you'd probably be arrested. Anyways, once they match, not to rub it in, she's on the bed and maybe they stop. She seemed like she was fucking down. And her reaction, honestly, to Kaz breaking up with her and getting back together with you, was unhinged. But it only makes sense if they fucked. Because then I can miss.

This is like all news to me, so. Oh, very sorry. Yeah, sorry. I'm happy we all learned this together. But it's just like she was extremely upset and aggressive and it was like you've only spent maybe 24 hours. Like maybe 20 hours. And you were pursuing him

and then you went on a date with someone else and you're mad at him for going back to the girl he was dating the whole time and you say he's She she accused him of being a coward which was kind of oh I kind of yeah She was saying some stuff like that to me like oh like you're the easy option I'm like well technically like you're the easy option. I'm not gonna lie, but but she's like yeah She like literally forced him. Yeah But she's like, yeah, she like literally forced him. Yeah, I don't know.

That was hard for me to understand. But one thing about the whole Christine Kaz situation is I was trying to not have my focus on Christine. My focus was on Kaz and his movements. Christine and how she's going to be or act or what she wants has nothing to do with me. If you can go for my man, you can get my man. Well, he's your man now. For me, I was just worried about what Kaz was doing. The only person who owed me any loyalty was him.

No one else. But you don't remember whether you first had sex with him before Christine and I? I think that was after, I don't, I, Was it after you guys got back together? I think it was after we got back together. Couldn't have been that memorable. But I guess when I say like me and Kaz

were starting to like be more intimate, like at this point. You were very physical even before that sex. Yeah, like we, I mean even sleeping in the same bed with someone, kissing someone, doing those kinds of things, like at that point, like call me crazy, like I kind of thought we were something, like what? Like, wait, does this not mean anything?

You're like, no, no, I'm sorry, Matt, you're on the wrong show. Yeah, well, I'm coming from Love is Blind, I don't know, I was confused, I guess. I don't know why you like me, I'm so sorry. We are engaged right now. So we're getting married in two weeks. We're like sharing a room, I'm like, well, we live together, like, you're gonna do this? No, we pay rent.

This is our home. No, yeah, I don't know, I think I was a little bit confused. That's fascinating. Different experiences changed your... Yeah, and it was like, we were just hanging out. I'm like, okay. I'm like, wait, what? Well, that is helpful context, just because as a viewer, I like to consider us friends. And I was just like, my dear friend Micah,

what are you doing after Kaz was like, we should get back together. I'm like, this was, you're like, oh for sure. I'm like, no, I'm like to say sorry and get back together. I was like, okay, perfect. So I'm gonna move my bags back in. Everyone's like, hey, now is that, I don't know, I like the man, what am I gonna do? And what was I like, oh, that's not.

I was like, oh. Yeah, no, when y'all sat in those chairs and you're immediately, you're like, oh my God, do you remember, and this is the place that we did. And I was like, oh, they're in a good mood. And I was like, no, okay, when I came out to go, so I knew he was asking for me back. First of all, he was moping around like this

for the entire time, and I was like, this man misses me. He probably didn't. So we were like, I need to restore my image before the show wraps. It looks bad. I don't know, I don't know his intentions, whatever, but I knew he was gonna ask for me back all day. I just did.

And it was like the murmur of the house. And so I came out there and I was like... It was funny, producers were like, wait, you couldn't at least have a conversation there and I was like it was funny producers were like wait you couldn't like hold like at least have a conversation and I was like literally he's like I miss you you're like okay great let's go no no you didn't make him sweat no he didn't sweat there was not any sweat I don't know even say sorry like I don't know I don't remember I miss you and I was like oh wait me too my bags are already in the room yeah no literally I was like oh. I honestly don't remember. How did you just like, I miss you? And I was like, oh wait, me too. She's like, great, my bags are already in the room.

Yeah, no, literally. I was like, oh good, I just had to move all my stuff over. But all jokes aside, do you feel like you learned something from that? Would you have changed your behavior in the future? Next time you meet a very handsome man like Kaz, who comes across as incredibly charming, have you thought about, I know it's all fun and games

and it's a TV show, but did that fuck you up at all? Did your experience with Kaz overall, did you have to recover emotionally? Did you have to get over him? That's kinda, I don't know. So in real life, that would've never flown on for that long. If you give me any of the vibes that he was giving me, I would've walked so quickly away from that

But there was no walking away from it. I was I was sad and Do I look at it and be like, oh, I'm so happy I made this system that decision Well, no, but what I am happy about is I was genuine. I liked him. I showed it. I did it I stuck beside him. Should I have a probably not so kind of almost like that's the world you were like, yeah I get it like I wouldn't normally do this, but like, them's the rules of the game and I'm just here to play the game. No, I'm like looking around, I'm like, okay, so.

I'm like, I like Kaz, like, that's who I liked. And I was like, I'm gonna ride it out. Is it gonna work out? No, there's probably a 4% chance, but we'll take it. What about the part? Again, I don't know if you've seen this part, but after, instead of Kaz going up to Christine and being like, hey, so listen,

you were like, hey, so this is really awkward, but Kaz wants me back. Okay, hold on a minute. I actually was wondering how this was gonna play out. So can you clear the air on anything? Because that does come across as a little bit of, you could not have waited. Yeah, well, he did pull me and say he missed me

and wanted me back. Oh my God. I can imagine it looking like that. I will give a little context and people can think what they will. Honestly, I don't know or anything. I feel you were valid in that. This is what happened though. I'm not even saying you're wrong, but that is how it looks. I'll give what happened. So when Kaz asked me back and did all this, yes, I jumped right back into his arms. But I said, I was like, we can't move forward though

until you go have a conversation with Christine. I was like, you need to give her the respect that you did not give me. You need to go tell her, you need to be like, this is what I'm gonna do and then we can move forward from there. I was like, don't blindside her like you blindsided me. And then fast forward, she came in from the date

and boys chats, girls chats. It's like what the whole vibe was. So the girls all have their chat. She sits down and she looks at me and I don't know what is shown or what isn't, but basically she's like, has he apologized to you yet? Like all this stuff, like, you know, like,

and I was like, yeah, like, yeah. And then like the girls were like, like it was like, okay, tell her, don't make her look like an idiot. So you had thought Kaz had said something. No, I knew Kaz, I hadn't had the chance to say anything. The minute she walked in, the boys separated and the girls separated, she came here.

And I wasn't gonna allow, I could tell that she was gonna go through a way where like, I couldn't stop thinking about Kaz. Has he apologized to you, babe? It was giving that. Like, has he apologized to you, babe? And I could tell maybe she was like wanting to stick with Kaz.

I'm not sure. I didn't want her to sit there and look like a fucking idiot. To be completely honest and be like, I'm gonna go back with Kaz. I was like, listen. You had two tough choices. We had, I could either let her sit there and be an idiot and were like, I'm gonna go back with Kaz. I was like, listen, you had two tough choices. We had, I could either let her sit there and be an idiot

and be like, I missed Kaz the whole time. Or I could stop her and be like, hey, listen, this is what happened. He asked for me back, you need to go have a conversation with him. Those are my options. And at this point, that makes sense. Whatever.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then it kind of exploded and I was like, Oh, okay. I think I just like set off a bomb or something. I was like, I, okay, I think I just set off a bomb or something. I was like, I don't know, I kind of didn't have a good situation. Yeah.

That was put in. Her reaction didn't seem to make a ton of sense, again, unless, and I'm assuming they did have sex. I didn't understand why she was angry either, to be honest with you, because me and Kaz at this point, we were the longest relationship in the whole show. We'd been together the whole time. They'd gotten together for like, it had to have only been like 24 hours before or

If they had sex that night, would you have more empathy for her or no? I think I have empathy for her regardless because if she is upset and she does feel like there was something going there I know how that feels. I mean That's what I thought the whole time with Kaz. If you thought that too, then I'm sorry that you I'm sorry. Yeah, but That's what I thought the whole time with Kaz. If you thought that too, then I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But I had no idea that they even kissed, I don't think. Was Kaz saying, like when,

like I know you were like asking questions like, I really like you and do you see a future? And he was saying, yes, I see a future. I think that when it comes to dating in general, that can be a gray area. I know some people will immediately be like, oh, love bombing and shit like that. But I still wanna remind people sometimes

that people are allowed to change their feelings. You know, like especially in any dating situation, two hot people get together, emotions running high. One person, I see a future there, person, yeah, I see a future too. Like, you know, if those words are being said in the first couple of weeks, like, there's a good chance one or both people's feelings might change.

Right, like as you get to know them. And that's okay, you know? That being said, so like, Cas saying that, like, I can, you know. But he does have to voice that to her when they do change. Totally. I guess my question is still wondering how you see it, because again, back to like the Stevons or the Harrys of it all, like, they're like,

seem to be lying in real time, fully aware of their lies where like, if you wanna defend Kaz, you could make the argument where he's just like, he doesn't really know how he's gonna feel in a couple of weeks. So him saying, I see a future, how can you say for certain whether he's obviously lying about it versus like other people or do you think that's's, I guess my question is,

were there other things that Kaz said that now looking back felt manipulative or felt dishonest where you feel like you knew he was being dishonest in the moment, but watching it back, you realize that now? To be honest, like I don't think he was necessarily trying to lie or trying to be a really manipulative person. I think that he doesn't know what he wants. And maybe he just didn't know if he wanted it with me.

I think I just need more communication in that aspect. And I also needed him to, I don't wanna say be more honest, cause I don't think he was necessarily lying. I just don't think he was being very straightforward. Yeah, it feels like Kaz, to me it seems like Kaz falls in the bucket of, I don't know if you watch Summer House,

but kind of like the late mid-20s guy who seems to have a lot of success with women in general, doesn't have a lot of relationship history, doesn't really know what they want, isn't necessarily being dishonest, but if you wanted to criticize their behavior, you could criticize Kaz and say, listen, you know you're an attractive guy, you know you're charming,

you know women react to you very differently than maybe they react to most men. And knowing that, you maybe need to be a little bit more careful with your behavior knowing that. You can't keep getting by by being like, well, I don't know what I want. And having all these kind of intimate moments with these women, knowing that they might feel

a certain way about it differently than you feel about it. And that's leading them on, even if you're not trying to. Like, I think that would be a fair criticism of Kaz. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think it's hard for me, because it's like, I look back and I'm like, oh, I hate that person. I think that's fair. I think it's hard for me because it's like I look back and I'm like, oh, I hate that person. I think he's quite great. I don't see him as someone I would ever want to date or be in a relationship with. And he'll probably kind of be in that same mode for a long

time, if I could guess. But he never like, I don't want it to hurt me or hurt anyone. And I think that that's pretty clear. I just think he maybe was more concerned about himself and his journey rather than everyone else's, which is fine. Yeah, I think that kinda sums it up. It seems like he cares about people, maybe not as much as he cares about his own journey. Maybe he needs to mature, but he does want, he has the, at least the intention or desire

to not fuck people over, where it seems like other people, Harry for sure, and I think now that we have a better understanding that Stevan, because watching it back, Stevan seems like a stand-up guy. Very focused on relationship, he was consistent with her, he didn't have a head on a swivel, and now again, I know it's her story to share,

but you were alluding to a guy who's like you said very different outside of the cameras and if that is the case then I would lump him and Harry into guys who know in real time that they're fucking with these women's hearts and they're deliberately being dishonest knowing how it's gonna affect them and not giving a shit and pretending to giving a shit. And pretending to give a shit. And that to me is not only damaging but dangerous.

100%, I completely agree with that. And I think even looking at all of the guys in the house, I think that all of them would have their head on a swivel or they would change up if they had an option to change up. The ones that didn't change up, they didn't have anyone else. No one else was interested. So it's like. Don't bring Izzy into this.

Protect Izzy at all costs. Protect Izzy. So it's like there was someone in Netflix universe that Stevan maybe would have been more interested in if they would have showed up, you think he would have definitely been like by Lara? It's hard to say because he was really locked in with Lara, but I think you can be locked in with someone, you know, on screen in this incubator,

and then the minute you get back out to the real world, there's tons and tons of more options. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And let that play out how it did. Do you think the competition aspect of it kind of forced the men's hands at being a little bit more performative with the whole, I'm looking for a relationship,

I'm looking for love, and then as soon as the cameras ended or they didn't win, they were like, I'm out. Yeah, maybe, I feel like that makes sense. I think that was the other part that confused me. It's like, what did you wanna win so bad for? There's not even money attached to this thing. It's like an influencer trip.

And all these people are getting sent on influencer trips. Anyways constantly It's so like babe. Just DM a hotel Literally no it was yeah, I don't know I didn't really understand like the whole like we have to win like for what? but But I was like, wait, I thought we were trying to fall in love. I was like, wait, that was trying to be perfect guys. Shut up on the wrong show again. I just can't find my niche. But yes, that was a little confusing, but I also do get it. I'm a competitive person, but I was, I don't know, I wasn't thinking about winning at the end

as much as trying to just find someone that I liked. I mean, how did it feel to hear Christine say that Kaz's perfect match was with the devil? Did she say that? Was that the end? No, she called him a scammer. And then she was saying being matched with you would be the equivalent of being matched with the devil. She came at him.

She had a whole speech. Very hard. Only at the finale? Yeah. I was like dissociated at the finale at that point. I was like, we need to wrap this up. I was like, I need to grab whatever's left of my dignity and get the hell out of here.

I was like, so my God, is Kaz your perfect match? And you're like, as of today. Yes. As of right now? Kaz is apparently in this moment. I love her, basically. No, he literally was like, and I love. No, and then Kaz goes, we'll stay in touch.

Oh yeah, that's right. Wait, no, that was Chris. That was Chris. Chris was like, I think love. No, and then Kaz goes, we'll stay in touch. Oh yeah, that's right. Wait, no, that was Chris. Chris was like, I think we have each other's LinkedIn. Oh, that's right, Chris said that too. That was brutal. Stay in touch was brutal. And the fact that the only person to call him out on it was Trevor?

Yep. The only person who stayed in touch with his ex on the show. Trevor's like, listen, I know something about staying in touch and I can help you. Listen, and I can give you a couple corners. It is fucking crazy combining these universes. Someone like Trevor who looked not great on his respective season, but you throw him

into a bunch of fuck boys and scammers. And he seems like the, back to the gentle stand up guy. Stand up guy. You know, teddy bear that he isn't or is. I don't know. Yeah, but he also like, I wonder, was he the only one who didn't get pulled into? Yep, he was the only person who was never brought on a date

or into the house. Yeah, I know it was kind of a bummer. Like at that point, like obviously no one like knew anything about what happened his season has come out. And it was like kind of, oh, that sucks. But even like love is blind. Like, Izzy was like the bad boy of his season. And all of a sudden, he's like this, you know,

this sweet, well, we can be friends. Yeah. First of all, I love Izzy. Like, I feel like he is actually a wonderful person. We've been good friends. We've been good friends pretty much since Perfect Match aired. And I don't know what it is, but he, like me and Izzy

decided like after that first night, like I remember I went into his room and I was like, do you have any body wash? Like I forgot all my stuff. Like we were friends and there was never a romantic connection after that first night spiral. Like I remember he went, he was talking to Kaz and he was like, the first night, like me and Kaz

like literally always would joke about this. He'd be like, oh, he's like, I fucked it with my gut. He's like, I really fucked it. And we never looked back on a romantic connection since. So when me and him matched, it was not like, should we give this a shot? Or I wasn't like, oh, I don't want to go with Kaz. Like, can I have you back?

It was not that at all. It was very clear. It was strictly from the position. Yeah, like it was very clear. And so like, it was definitely supposed to be friends. And people have to realize that, so Kaz and I have somehow angled ourselves to be like, one of the most dramatic and bigger couples in this show.

They're not just gonna let me walk out the door. Like, you're gonna stay and you're gonna see it through. Like, see it through, my boy. We gotta finish the storyline. To be clear, they're not kidnapping you. You are choosing to stay here. I'm choosing to stay. I'm choosing to stay. But they're like see it through. Like see it through my boy, we gotta finish this storyline. To be clear, they're not kidnapping you, you are choosing to stay here. I'm choosing to stay. Okay.

I'm choosing to stay, but they're like, pick someone. But they would like you to stay, if you're willing to stay. Yeah, 100%, they're like, pick someone. Just because you have some people out there who. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not handcuffed, yet. But anyways, and so. Her.

Ooh, okay. What was that? Okay, cake. But basically they were like, you know, like pick someone. I'm like looking around the room and I'm like, oh my God, like what do I do? And I'm like Izzy, like Izzy's my friend. I feel safe with Izzy. He's someone that I know is going to be honest and be genuine. And he also has not had a chance in this house to go on another date.

And at this point we know that, you know, the show's not over yet. Maybe there's people that each of us can explore with that we have not gotten the opportunity to yet. And that was the problem. Yeah, I do feel like you're sleeping in the bed with someone and you don't, would love to feel safe and protected and comfortable. Yeah, I'm not gonna pick someone off the street.

Izzy seemed like the guy that all the women were willing to share a bed with that they didn't like because they knew he was a respectful king. Yeah, no, Izzy's the best. Izzy's an absolute, absolute king. I just felt like Izzy, if you're listening, if you're out there, just lay off the alcohol. You can always tell when his eyes are going to be stung.

I was like, Izzy, you're either drunk or hungover. No, when Izzy and I did the competition together, I was so mad at him, because I flew across that thing. I don't know what it looks like, but I was pretty much the first to the other side. I look at Izzy, and he's still on the first beam. And I was like, what the hell? And he's like, I'm really hungover.

I was like, Izzy, I was like, we're even finding alcohol. None of us are even drinking. And he's like. You could tell when his eyes are glazed over. Oh my god, he was so funny. But that also goes back. First of all, Izzy's not an alcoholic, I mean, as far as I know.

But at the same point, it's like, we were really out of our comfort zone, and it was, that was like a way to kind of take the edge off. And I think that Izzy was thrown into a situation where he was very different from all of those guys, and it was a way to take the edge off and have fun. Interesting. Just what it was. There's a lot of decisions you have to make

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skin. Pull Up Skin Essentials has your big kid covered too with a training pant that is ultra soft and breathable to help protect sensitive skin through potty training. Learn more at Huggies.com. Once again, head to Huggies.com to learn more. Okay, so you and Kaz, filming's done. You come back to LA, he goes where? Oh babe, we didn't even get that far. So we haven't crossed the border out of Mexico yet. Okay, perfect. I mean, I think that I don't have to say-

He blocked your number. No, so we're still at the hotel at this point. But I mean, I don't think I need to say a lot for people to be able to draw their conclusions to what happened. It's like pretty much what was written in the stone from like day four, like what anyone could have guessed happened. Well, I'm very, very bad at guessing. So could you please tell me? I mean, Kaz Kaz'd it pretty quickly.

I don't really know what I should say or how to say it. You can just say the truth. You say it's been fun, bud. I feel like you've been defending him plenty. I think you're allowed to say your truth. I don't remember how I was planning on saying this. The honest way. Okay.

So the truth is fine. Basically, he continued to explore other options once the cameras were off. And I wasn't interested in exploring other options and I was the impression we weren't doing that. You're like, babe, the game's over. I was like, babe, the game's over. So there's no cameras here? Yeah. I'm like, was there another kissing competition? I was like, but let's't doing that. You're like, babe, the game's over. I was like, babe, the game's over. So there's no cameras here.

I'm like, was there another kissing competition? I was like, but let's just say this. I was like, why was I not invited to this one? I'm like, I'm confused. Wait, is it my turn? Yeah, there was another kissing competition off camera. Let's just say that. With who?

I'm not gonna say that. But it was someone on the show? Yeah, I just, I feel like- Are you protecting him or are you protecting her? I'm protecting her. I think that maybe it will come out if it does come out but I don't know. I feel like people on the internet and in the world

have gone way too damn comfortable with being terrible on social media and I'm not gonna say anything that might open her up to any sort of hate or him. I don't care. Not my prerogative. If it comes out, it comes out. Gotcha. But yeah, it definitely happened.

And then... In front of you? Or did you hear about it? I heard about it. Harry and I were off filming some press and I was gone for the day and that's when it happened. I heard about the following day. He denied whatever happened.

I called her. I asked her what happened. She told me it did. I looked at him and for like a lack of a classier way, I was like, you're dead what happened. She told me it did. I looked at him. And for like a lack of a classier way, I was like, you're dead to me. Never speak to me again. I never talked to him again. Ever. Like one thing about me, like in the show, yes, it was like fool me once, fool me twice, fool me three times. I'm like, just like taking it. But like in real life, like I don't care and I don't have time for it. There's other options.

Get the hell out of here, pack your bags. And that's what it was. We never spoke again. If it were to come out, Until then, we would be recently spoken. The girl, to be clear, you have no exceptions with her decision, right? Are you?

I think when it comes to this specific situation, one, like I said before with Christine, no one owes me anything. I'm not angry. I don't think it's your fault. I don't hate you. Not at all, not in the slightest. That's on him.

It's not on the girl. I stand by that. The only thing about this specific situation is like why you saw, you know, we left the show together. You could tell that I really liked him. You could tell it was genuine. What did you get from that and why? So I don't see her as a bad person.

I'm not angry with her. None of that. I just, it's not someone who I would ever let in my circle. In your circle, yeah. That's it. Well, speaking of friendships and whatnot, I feel like there's a, I don't know if it was the edit or if it was the reality, but between you and Elise,

it seemed like there was a lot of back and forth of like. Are you friends? Yeah, like are you friends? Are you guys kind of secretly going back and forth at each other? I had no idea that me and Elise had problems. I literally had no clue. I understand that she was upset

and why she was upset with like the boardroom situation. I do think that, listen, I'm gonna be honest. The boys had a bunch of chats, the boys had a bunch of chats, the girls had a bunch of chats. Kaz was under the impression that Harry wanted to go on a date. Everyone's so crawled up Harry's anal cavity, they're gonna be doing whatever facts you want.

That was what it was gonna be. Harry was gonna go on a date, all right? What is with all these boys on Netflix, just like, wanting to carry Harry's balls? Just like, here, let me just hold Truly. Wanting to carry Harry's balls. Just like, here, let me just hold him for a second. And he's really charming. I'll be like...

On my face. Yeah, he's just a charming person and he's... Sure, but that's some self-respect. Yeah, I don't know. I have no idea. I never even... I don't even think I spoke to him. I don't even, like, once.

But... Boy, they just... Yeah, that's what it was. And it was even worse than Harry. It was even worse than Harry, I won't lie. But yeah, so that's what it was gonna be. Listen, Harry was gonna go on a date. Yeah.

Harry's going on a fucking date. This girl's coming in the house. date. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Harry's going on a fucking date. This girl's coming in the house. He's the star of the show. He's going on a date. And you had no malicious intent by putting Jess and him together. No, absolutely no malicious intent. If she was hurt by it, I am sorry for that because you can't control people's reactions. And if they do feel like that, then I'm sorry.

Yeah. But this is the thing. He was going on a date. He'd already had relations with half the people on the board. And the other half the people on the board was Jess and Alara. Kaz already knew Alara. She dated his brother. Why would Kaz knew that that wasn't gonna be a match? The option was Jess.

They're bringing Jess in? Hell no. I'm sorry I brought Jess in. She's one of my best friends. So, whatever, it worked out. I don't have any regrets, but that is what happened. And if she was hurt for that, you know, I'm sorry, I apologize to her profusely, even on the show. I don't remember if it was shown or not, but like we were good. So I was under, like I was understanding that that was all squashed. And so looking back on it and seeing that

there was like resentment. One, I'm like, oh, I didn't know that. And two, it's like, I do like in a way like feel bad. Like I'm sorry that I made you feel some type of way. But I definitely did not understand that that was going on and that there was beef. It is hard to watch, but at the same time, like we are friends, we're still friends. I think one of the things that I thought of when I was watching the show and kind of like feeling like these like bad energies towards her, I was like, well, something that was really, really hard for me on Love is Blind was the fact that I was close with all of the girls until the show dropped.

Super, super close. Texting about what we were wearing to the reunion. Like all the girls, all the main girls. When they saw the public's perception of me and they saw like maybe different edits, they dropped me like it was hot and it was really hard on my mental health. And that's not something that I would ever do to her. And that's not who I am. Are you talking about a perfect match? No, Love is Blind. Love is Blind.

Love is Blind. Like they dropped me like is blind. They dropped me like it was hot because of people's public perception and it was literally terrible for me. And that's also something that I would do. You felt canceled by the world and your friends. Yeah, and my friends who were there in reality and knew what actually went down. So I would never do that to Elise.

We spoke with Elise this week. Did you? Yeah. You should give her a call. I mean, we talk. I think she said that the internet kind of has this like Micah against Elise. Yeah. And...

She feels like you've talked less since the show's drop. I think that... So I did reach out to her and I was like, hey, are you doing okay? I know this can be like hard, like we're good, like whatever. And then like I released a video saying like, you know, like chill, chill out, like, you know, to people, which is like, who's gonna listen to me? I don't know. But like it was something that was like kind of like mending that gap for us. And we're fine. Am I like having a sleepover at her house? Like not right now, but we're,

we're good. I have nothing bad to say about her at all. I think she's a good person and I hate that she's kind of like going through it, like kind of how I did, because I don't know how that can feel. I don't think she had Melissa's intent. Also she was there to play the game. At least she came up and said it, like she's having fun.

She's hot, like whatever, like let her do her thing. I don't know why she's getting any heat whatsoever, because Sheilas looks like she's having a bit of fun on a TV show. I do think the clip where she's encouraging Brittn to go talk to Kaz, where then Kaz eventually blows up on her, that was definitely like, it felt malicious. It felt very like, no, she was like, I don't think, and she's like, no, no, no, go, go, go, like break them up, break them up, you can do it game play the game entertain it do that. Yeah. Yeah, it did feel a little bit like that

Maybe it was less malicious and more just like playing the game in there to like stir things up I don't think because I once again, I do not think she's malicious at all Yeah, just compared to some of these guys behavior Why the Internet's wasting their breath going after at lease. Because the internet always goes after women. They let guys get away with anything and a girl like looks at someone wrong and they're like, bitch! Like actually, yeah. Mean girl. Yeah, it's insane but.

Why do you think that is? Because the audience is, I would say, mostly women. I don't think it's just like, I don't think it's just TV. I mean, I think it's like, everyday life in general. Like women are constantly getting like, men always get the benefit of the doubt. What was the story you told me yesterday though, or the other day about you saw someone in public and some girl gave another girl a look.

Yeah, yeah, we were at this event and I saw this girl that we were with, had this really pretty dress on and she was like standing on her phone and this woman is walking by and she gives her like the nastiest look, like mean mugs the fuck out of her. Like to the point where I was like,

oh my God, if she saw that, like I would feel so insecure. Like I would be on edge. And then she walks over to her and was like, like I'm so sorry, I just have, like your dress is the most pretty, like the prettiest thing I've ever seen. Where did you get it?

Like I have to know. And I have to, like your dress is the most pretty, like the prettiest thing I've ever seen. Where did you get it? Like, I have to know. And I was like, okay, that is like, I feel like the epitome of women is like, maybe that wasn't it. Like, it obviously wasn't a dirty look at all. She was just like, oh my God, I love that dress. Yeah, I was just like staring at her because she liked her dress.

Yeah, I was just looking at her, but us as like outsiders are like, oh my God, she's mean. She's a terrible person. She's disgusting. Yeah, no, that's a great thing. Yeah, so I feel like women just don't ever get the benefit of the doubt, and it's like, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame on women,

but men, it's like, oh, God, they're men. Men will be men. Yeah, yeah, boys will be boys. What? Yeah, 100%. I can totally agree. I think it's in life, too. I'm assuming your answer's gonna be similar for Laura,

and whenever Jess shares her story, she will share her story But how did you see Harry and Jess's relationship play out? Um, so I guess at the time in the house, Jess and I weren't necessarily super close yet So I wasn't super involved like I wasn't super involved in the relationship. I wasn't nosy I mind my own business like I'm fighting for my life to keep my man So like I don't have a lot of time But I know that she was taking him at face value for what he was saying And I think that speaks more to her as a person than anything else like she wanted to believe he was genuine She wanted to believe he had changed and she doesn't I think people forget with her is

When she was on perfect match, even though it's her second show Yeah, she had not been on any shows that aired at that point. So she doesn't feel like a celebrity. Did she even really know who Harry was at that point? I feel like everyone knew who Harry was, but who knows how much she knew about him though. She probably wasn't following him or aware of all those scandals.

Everything he's ever done. No, so she's probably taking what was at face value and like she went on a date with him. She was probably love bombed or something of the sorts. And she's like, oh my God, I have this super hot Australian guy liking me, period. Yeah. Talking about therapy, talking about doing the work.

Dating his dad. I had multiple of my friends say, I would fall for Harry too. Or like if I was, I'd be doing the same thing. You're saying you want to be a stepfather to my child? Like, okay. No, literally a hundred percent. So because yeah, people can change.

And some people do. And when people are presenting this, you know, this. He knows what to say. He knows what to say. He has the playbook, the script down. Like, I mean, what if he had changed? He just happened to have, he hasn't yet, but like, what if, what if he did?

Like, yeah, I don't know. I don't blame her for it, honestly. Uh, what did you make of the reveal? I know at the finale, we find out that... No, no, first, did you believe it in the house? Yeah, did you believe that Harry... ...had kissed Melinda? I 100% believe that Harry and Melinda kissed. First of all, everyone was drunk.

Also, those boys can't keep it in their pants, and there was no one watching them for like the first time. Yeah. Like, I mean, before that, think about it, like Jess had had her eyes on Harry the entire time. It was like pretty much the second he got away. And I could only imagine what was going on in the cenote. Also, I always just like believe women in general. So if she's saying it, like, yeah, yeah, we did it. Yeah, like we don't really get credit for being like, I couldn't live with that guy.

She's like, I kissed him. I'm like, guilty. Yeah, no, but like, I don't know. So yes, I did believe it. Do I wanna believe it for Jess's sake? Absolutely not. Right. That's terrible. Especially like looking back on it and watching too, that they were like saying like, I love you.

I remember that morning he had asked her to be his girlfriend. Oh. Mm-hmm. After the kiss, after the alleged, the accusation. Yeah, so from my understanding, I mean, I could be wrong, but I'm like 99% sure that morning he had asked Jess to be his girlfriend. Yeah, so from my understanding, I mean, I could be wrong, but I'm like 99% sure that morning he had asked Jess to be his girlfriend.

Yeah, because it came across as Harry gets accused of kissing Melinda, then Harry pretends to be sick or crying or sad. He's making Jess feel guilty. We don't get to see what happened overnight, but we come back the next day and Jess and Harry are saying, I love you to each other. And now we know that in addition to Harry saying,

oh, by the way, I love you, and Jess, you can criticize Jess for falling for being foolish, but again, we all wanna believe in the fantasy of falling in love early and realizing maybe we have a lot to learn about each other, but these feelings are real. And then Harry's saying, not only do I love you, fuck this show, fuck matching,

do you wanna be my girlfriend? Like for Harry to do that, I'm assuming Jess is thinking, this guy is breaking the rules for me. He doesn't care about the show, that makes him more genuine than all these other fucking guys. Oh yeah, no, they were definitely like, feeling like. Yeah.

Like, I walked into the, like, me and Jess still laugh about this. Like, I'm in the trenches, I've been in the trenches, I'm fighting for my life, Jess like, ascends down the stairs and she just like, has the most beautiful white dress on and like, this like, gorgeous hair, and it's like her big day, like she's like, newly like, a girlfriend, like she's just so stunning she's glowing and I'm like

knowing it's gonna be the worst time in my life and then we're like well do we know we both are gonna get fucked over like it was gonna be hell for both of us but like we always talk about that it's like so funny like just like no idea what was coming. Right. So then fast forward to the finale they do in fact reveal the truth behind what went down between Melinda and Harry. They have the audio around everything and it shows that they did, in fact, we didn't see a kiss, we heard a kiss, they talked about the kiss, Harry said he wants to fuck her, he wants to get her pregnant, then he goes to producers and says, did you get that kiss?

Please, I didn't mean to. In midst of Chris, was it, that he did a bad thing, but he can't say it on camera. Fully aware of what, this is crisis control. Now we go back and remember all the gas lighting and denial and. Yeah, yeah, no. Did you guys, I know we saw that at the finale,

it kind of looked like you guys were shown that clip at the finale. Yeah. Is that how it went down or when did you find out that there was actually footage? No, so we did not see that. So we saw it with the rest of the world, had no idea there was any audio, any footage,

anything like that. So we didn't know that. And once again, I'm not gonna speak for Jess because it's her story to tell. But in my opinion, knowing how strong of a woman Jess is, she probably would not have ever given Harry any sort of chance, you know, if she knew that, if she knew the full truth.

Because at this point, like she's still choosing to, you know, believe him and give him those chances. So when Harry, at the finale, says, I wasn't fully honest with, he said, what did he say? Yeah, did he ever say, like, I wasn't fully honest because I did kiss her and I did say this? Yeah, because how it airs is Harry says, I wasn't fully honest.

It's like some kind of a mission, and then it flashes back to like four weeks earlier, four days earlier, I don't know what the timeline was. It shows the actual footage. So it almost comes across that Harry's owning up to his mistake. So, but you're saying that wasn't the case and Jess still had no idea that that kiss happened. And so Jess, Harry never admitted to it. Wait, did Jess also find out about the kiss with us? Yeah.

He still to this day never admitted it to her? I don't think he ever admitted it to her until he was caught red-handed probably. Yeah, because remember they show at the end of the credits, they're together in the car and she's out here in LA and they're like, we're gonna make it work, blah, blah, blah. And then it says one week later, we broke up. So I'm like, I don't think he ever had to confess.

Yeah, I don't think he probably never had to. And I'm sure her looking back on it, it was like, well, then it all happened how it was supposed to happen. Like we didn't work out. I also have to say, Jess and Jess's, or like in her corner, I was like, she's had two iconic moments on these Netflix shows

with the EpiPen quote. And then this one when she was like, I have to do what's respectful to me and for my daughter, and telling Harry jowzy no, we are not getting back together. I just thought that that was epic. Also, she just caught a lot of heat when it came to the Melinda confrontation,

and sure, yeah, we never wanna take out our anger against the men or women. It looked like she was taking her anger out on Melinda for Harry's behavior. But now that we see this footage back, Harry's wrong, but Melinda was the aggressor here. She went after him, yes, she's on a TV show, and maybe she's playing the game,

but she was not this, she said to Jess, he kissed me, and I kissed him back. That is clearly not what happened. So not only did Melinda say this in front of all the women, she changed the story to her benefit to make her look a lot better than she actually came across. And Jess caught a lot of heat for that when that episode aired about going after Melinda,

not holding Harry accountable. I think a lot of other accusations were thrown just as way that at this point seemed wrong and unfair. So I think that's an important point. I think anyone in that situation would have reacted poorly because at this point she's like, oh my gosh, I have this hot boyfriend. It's her big day.

Everything's going great. And then you have someone come in and say something so aggressively in front of everyone. I think it was just really hard for her to hear. At that point, I was shocked though, because I honestly didn't think that, it's hard because at this point, I was understanding where Melinda was coming from

because I was like believing her at face value. So her saying, he kissed me, like it didn't seem like she was trying to screw dress over. I just think she delivered it in a really bad way. And I think that Jess was really hurt and upset and shocked. And that's why her reaction was that. So I think at that point, I thought both of them were kind of warranted.

I was like, I can't remember where it's coming from. But then looking back and seeing that, I'm like, this, that was just, I feel like maybe it was spiteful. And it was like a play to maybe get into the house. Yeah. Yeah. Micah, you've been amazing. We still have a lot more questions about all this drama.

But let's take a break from interrogating you. I never actually. We have a caller who has some relationship problems. They would love our advice. Are you down to help? I don't know why they'd want my advice, but like I'm willing to give it. Micah, we learned from our mistakes.

Okay, thank you. Actually, yeah. I'm sure you have a lot more knowledge than I think you probably even realize. Dr. Micah. 100%. And for those of you who have tuned in, maybe you haven't listened to the show,

maybe you're tuning in to Micah for the first time, we do this on all our Going Deepers. We also, every Monday, Ask Nick is just a whole episode of people calling in with their relationship stories and problems, and as friends, we share our advice that many people find interesting and helpful. If nothing else it's fun to hear other people's relationship problems. So if you enjoy listening to this call, there's a lot of more of these every Monday, every week on Ask Nick.

So be sure to check that out. Let's bring on our caller. There's a lot of decisions you have to make when you have a baby and the one Nick, so be sure to check that out. Let's bring on our caller. There's a lot of decisions you have to make when you have a baby, and the one that I feel the most comfortable and safe making is using huggies for our daughter River. I always tell Nick that when River's crying, she's trying to tell us something, and that's the case with most babies. They express it through cries. And so we've turned to huggies. The new Huggies Skin Essentials are here. A brand new dermatologist approved line of diapers, wipes, and pull ups training pants that are all designed with baby sensitive skin in mind. Their wipes are so thick and pH balanced to help maintain healthy skin. Their wipes have zero harsh ingredients for a great gentle clean. The Skin Essential Diapers features the Skin Protect Liner which is what helps take care

of the ick and stick that can cause rash. They have this liner built in their diapers. The whole diaper helps protect against the top two causes of rash by managing moisture and running mess. The liner gives you the barrier to help absorb moisture and lock away running mess from baby skin. Pull Up Skin Essentials has your big kid covered too with a training pant that is ultra soft and breathable

to help protect sensitive skin through potty training. Learn more at Huggies.com. Once again, head to Huggies.com to learn more. How's it going? Hi, how's it going? My name is Vanessa, I'm 30 years old and my virtual situationships avoid meeting me in person. Okay, virtual situationships.

First of all, what is that and why do you have many? Yeah, wait. Multiple? Yes, wait. Multiple? Yes, multiple. This has happened three times. We're currently on the third iteration of this. I can definitely go over the first two, but it's the third one I would love for the team to focus on here today.

Understood. Before we get into the specific situation that you want to help with, I am curious about these virtual situationships in general and how do you even get yourself involved in one? That's what I would also love to know. Okay. Basically, we match online.

Okay. We start talking and the talking just never stops and we never get the date. Okay. And we never meet in person and this goes on for months. Months, okay. How many, how? One was a year and a half. Oh my God. Okay. So I don't know what the guys are doing on the other end, but there must be a lot

of different things you can do to prevent this from ever going to a year and a half. You have so much patience. Can I ask, do they live near you? Do you know that or is it like cross country? They all live within 20 minutes or half an hour from me. One lived 15 minute walk from my home. Wait, how do you know that? I know guys.

Did you get in their address? Because they tell me, like we know. They're talking every day for a year. I would have just pulled up at some point. No, actually. Did you ever stalk their asses? No, well not like actually stalked. One of the, two of them gave me their address.

No, and if the police are listening, no. On the record, no. Okay, let's dive into the situationship you have specific questions with and then we'll circle back and maybe just kind of talk about maybe some of the things you can do to prevent you from getting into these situations in the first place. Okay. So this most recent one, I should say to preface, the other two happened during the pandemic, like right at the beginning of pandemic, and then right at the end of

the pandemic. So the first time it happened, I was like, okay, like this is a weird situation, but the world is on fire. Like, what are you going to do? Sure. The second time it happened, I was like, okay, we're just getting over a traumatic world crisis. You know, like, what, I guess I'm just have bad luck. And now this third time, there's no pandemic to be seen. And I'm super friggin confused. So I'll just get into it. Please bear with me. This might be a little bit convoluted. But basically, end of April, I matched with this guy. He seems fine. He's cool. We're talking. He's attractive. I'm into it, whatever. But I'm super busy at the time. This is a really busy

time for me for work. And the conversation is just very like surface level, easy flirting, like nothing to write home about. And I could see because we've been then talked about a week and usually a guy will ask me out within like two to three days, right? And so this has been a week amount of time. And I'm looking at my schedule ahead of the month and I'm like, shit, like I am about to got really busy. He also was very busy. He works in professional sports. That's all

I want to say about it. And so he traveled a lot and he's a very busy guy. So I see the writing on the wall here. Like he hasn't asked me out yet. I personally don't know if I can take this on on my end. So I reach out to him. I was so proud of myself. And I'm like, Hey, listen, I think you're great. And I would love to get to know you more. But I'm sensing that on your end, you're really busy. And on my end, this next month coming up doesn't look great for me. So I propose, why don't we stop texting texting and if we're both still into this in a month or whatever when we both have time let's circle back. Okay. Because honest yeah right and I'm like because honestly one of two things is going to happen here either a it fizzles

out and then you know missed opportunity that's Or B, I start building up this like image of this guy in my head who's not real, right? Who is like, I've concocted in my brain and he's like giving me this curated version of himself through text messages. And then I'm gonna meet him in person and be disappointed any other way, right? So not a good situation.

So I pitched that to him. He freaks out. He's like, oh my God, no, I don't want to pen Paul either. I really like you. He sends me screenshots of like his like calendly schedule, like how busy he is. And this is the date will be free. All this shit, right? And so I'm like, Wow, like he seems really sincere. He really doesn't want this to like, like trickle off or whatever. He's really, really interested in meeting me. I ended up getting roped in to continuing texting him under the pretense that the first week of June, he was free and I was free. So we start

texting and about all of May and then we start phone calling and then we start the FaceTimes. And now end of May is rolling around and I am very attached. I'm very, very attached to this guy. I'm really into him. We've talked about a lot of personal stuff and I like him. I really like him. So I come back from like my work shit or whatever. I had a week in Vegas and then I went straight to a bachelor at weekend.

So I was like hooked and I was super, super, super hungover one day. And I just like landed the night before and I was waiting out and I'm like, oh my God, I like this guy. He's got about two more weeks on his end before he can see me. I don't know if I can go that long. I'm like kind of stressed. So I messaged him and I'm like, hey, listen, I'd love to revisit the no texting thing again,

because I'm going to let you know, I'm just starting to trip out a little bit here. And I think I need a bit of a break. And I think it's a good idea. But I really want to see you. Obviously, I really wanna see you, obviously I really wanna see you. He freaks out again and he's like, no, no, no, no, no, I think we can see each other, I think I can make time for a Friday, I can make time for Friday, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it, this is Monday, Friday,

he can make time for me. So I'm like, are you sure? Because now I feel bad, now, because I know how busy he is, now I'm feeling like an asshole and I feel like I'm being dramatic and asking too much, whatever. So now I feel bad, I'm like, no, like I'm being dramatic and asking too much, whatever. So I

feel bad. I'm like, No, like, honestly, it's fine. Forget I said anything. It's all good. He's like, No, we can meet Friday. It's on and I'm like, Are you sure he's like, Yes. And I'm like, Okay, great. Let's meet Friday. Friday rolls around. I don't hear anything all day. And I knew it too. I woke up Friday morning. And like, you know, you just have a gut feeling. I woke up the first thing I woke up and I thought in my head, I'm not seeing him today. I'm not seeing today. But then I was like, no, don't think that way. Vanessa, go shave your

legs, do your hair, get ready. Like you're seeing this guy tonight. Yay, Friday. You know what I mean? Five o'clock rolls around. I'm fucking pissed. I messaged him like, hey, like, how's it going? Am I sensing a flock coming along? And he's like, Oh, yeah, like, I don't know. I think so. Maybe the work is really busy. Something happened last night. And I was really behind. And now I'm really behind today. I don't know. So I'm furious. I'm heartbroken. I'm hurt. And I just say, Okay, cool. I'm making other plans. Have a good night. He starts

continues texting me as if everything's fine. And he's like sending me photos of him at like the work site he's at. He's like, Oh, like trying to be funny. I'm just like liking all of his posts to be like really passive aggressive. I'm furious, but I don't want to get into it right now. Right? Like I'm too mad to talk about it. Then he sends me arguably the douchiest selfie I've ever seen in my life. Like absolutely insane. And I just lose my mind. I love like it was just so abhorrent. It just wasn't just like so pissed. What did it look like? What was the selfie? Oh my God. This guy's like, okay, so he sends me photos all the time. He sends me pictures of himself all the time, right? And

they're usually cute or funny or ugly even whatever. This one is him like standing in the mirror. He's like looking up like this. You know what I mean? Like my face or whatever. And he's like mean mugging it. And I'm like, out of context also, completely out of context to any of the nonsense he was texting me beforehand.

And so I'm just like, what do you want? Like, I literally like, are you being for real right now? I just said that. I'm like, are you being for real? And he's just said that. I'm like, are you being for real? And he's like, yeah, I get you're mad. I don't know what to say. I feel bad. So I say to him, like, respectfully, I can promise you, however you're feeling, I feel

10 times worse. So if you can't do better than that, then like we're done here. Then he goes into why he was behind today and allegedly the night before he shit his pants. Literally? I'm so sorry. There was just no way for me to be able to see that as someone was about to come out your front door. There is no world where I could have guessed that that was the next one. And guess what happens next? He pooped. No, we actually can't guess. No, like there's no way I'm guessing that. Did he send you a picture of the toilet or like wait, why don't he say that?

Himself? Like he said he's like I didn't want to tell you this because it's embarrassing But I was on the sidelines of the game and I had to run off the field and I barely made it to the toilet This has never happened to me before Yada, yada, yada, yada. And so that's why he had to cancel the date. Because he should have said it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 24 hours later, right? First of all, poop stuff makes me laugh.

I actually do find it really funny. So it disseminated like my anger instantly. I was like, that's hilarious. Did he know this about you? He knows I'm an easy laugh. Yeah, he knows I'm funny and I can laugh, right? So I feel bad for him and I'm like, okay, whatever. Like I'll let this brush pass.

But then I did say for the third time, for the third time I say to this man, okay, you know what, I'm cooked for real. That was not like a really good interaction that I enjoyed with you. So you have about a week and a half before you come back, no texting until you come back. And if you wanna see me, great.

You don't wanna see me, I understand. And he's like, I'm gonna text you. I promise, as soon as I get back, I really want to see you. So I'm like, okay, beautiful. So he goes away for like some games, travel, whatever. And it's about a week or so of time. And I knew the day he was coming back, remember this guy sent me his schedule like 50 times. So throughout that whole point, he's liking my stories and I'm liking his stories. He's posting stuff on his stories that he doesn't usually post that I feel like were like signs for me. Like, you know, the girl's like, we're full of shit. That kind of thing. Right. And so I'm like, okay, like it's still on. Right. Like he hasn't

lost interest. Finally, the day he has come back, he's here, a day goes by, another day goes by. I hear nothing from him. I now message him and I'm like, so are you like trying to make me sweat here or are you over it? He's like, no, I have COVID. Interesting. He's like, yeah, all this travel. Proof. Send the test. Yeah. Send the test.

Yeah, right? Like, show me your proof. I'd also like proof that you shit your pants as well. While you're at it, can you send all that? So yeah, he like gives me this shit and now I feel bad for him because like why would you, I'm like as I'm telling you this story, you guys, I feel so insane. Why would you lie about these things, right? So I'm like, I'm so sorry, like that sucks. And he, mind you, he has an Italy trip coming up the week after and I'm Italian. And if you know anything about Italian people in North America, like all we give a shit

about is being Italian. It's like our whole personality, whatever. So I'm like sending him links for when he's there. I'm, you know, like you need to eat this, you need to do that. I'm like, so I'm more excited about this trip than he is, right? Like he's going to my homeland. So I'm talking to him about this trip and I'm like, you just need to get better for your trip. Maybe I can see you before that. Wow. Whatever. It's just like

everything's we're texting again. Things are normal and fine. Whatever. Finally, the day before the trip comes and I don't hear from him all day, which is not completely irregular. Sometimes we'll go a full day. No texting. It's fine. But I didn't hear anything the day before. And then the day of I knew for a fact that he told me he had an overnight flight at 11pm. And he booked to actually work for himself during the day. And we had this whole like back and forth about like, that's crazy. How are you going to be able to get ready for your trip and then go to the flight? Like

I could never do that. Whatever. So at around 12 o'clock that day, I text him, Are you excited for your trip? Oh my god, like are you all packed? I don't hear anything from him. That's fine. I figure he's busy. This is when I write in to you and I'm like, okay, Nick Vile is going to tell me how I'm going to get this guy to get me to go on a date with him. When he gets back, I'm going to be prepared. I'm going to, Nick's going to give me the answers. So delusional, right? So I write into you guys and my question was gonna be, how do I get this guy to like, again, see me, right? So five o'clock rolls around, six, seven,

I still don't hear from this guy. I'm now thinking he must be so stressed from all the work he had to do today and this flight he has tonight, poor guy. So I text him and I'm like, oh my God, you must be like tweaking out and you must be so behind. You can do this, good luck. Like, oh my God, right? Still hear tweaking out and you must be so behind. You can do this. Good luck. Like, oh my God, right?

Still hear nothing. 11 o'clock rolls around. I'm just waiting for him to send me that photo of him at the airport. Like he sends me selfie 24 seven. I'm waiting for him to be like, oh my God, what a day. Nothing. Next day rolls around. Absolutely nothing.

I send him a third text being like, okay, now I'm getting concerned. Absolutely nothing. Then at around six o'clock at night, he posts like a random story on Instagram. And I swipe up on it and I just say, bro, like, bro, you know what I mean? Two hours later, he responds, like all caps, tiramisu. I'm like, what are you saying? What? The twist and turns here. Where are we? Where am I?

Right? And he's like, why? What's up? And I'm like, you've been ghosting me for two days. And he's like, no, I haven't. And then sends me a screenshot of his settings on his phone saying that he has all the data and shit operating in Europe. Right?

He's like, I have all of my stuff off. I can only communicate through Instagram. And I'm like, what are you talking about? First of all, all of the messages are on delivered. It says on my phone, they're all on delivered. Second of all, I know for a fact, and the Gen Z of the household, can you please verify this?

But if it's like Instagram, not Instagram, iMessage. It's all on Wi-Fi. Even if you have, yeah. Yeah, if they still deliver on Wi on wifi, like I'm not stupid. And also, mind you, I know when you left on this flight, I sound like a crazy person. I know when you left on this flight and you, yeah, like, like what are you talking about? And he's just like, well, I'm sure I'll get them when I come back to the messages, ignoring everything I'm saying, totally being so nonchalant about all of this. And then at this point, I was like, Okay, I need to

put my phone down because I'm so angry and I just and I feel like a crazy person talking to you right now. Have a good trip. And he's like, Okay, thanks. Like exclamation point. I'm seeing red. And I thought to myself, Okay, I'm gonna keep the lines of communication open in case this guy says anything more insane to me so I can tell Nick Viall on Tuesday. And then I thought to myself, no, Vanessa, you know exactly what Nick Viall is going to say to you. So I hit my weekend.

I blocked and deleted him on everything. I booked a solo trip to Greece. And I have a date for tonight. Okay. There's a happy ending to the story, but I'll be real with you. He's in Italy with a woman. I'll be telling you that much.

I was gonna say, have you Googled him? Cause I'm like, this is giving like married man. Like. No, no, no. Yeah, I should have clarified. He definitely is not in a relationship. And I know that because we have a mutual friend who I hit up right away and I was like,

yo, what do you know about this guy? She said he used to be a regular at her bar. He had a long-term girlfriend that she and apparently everyone, including his family, hated, which to me should have been a red flag because it's like, why do you know that his family hated her if he didn't tell you? But anyways, I digress.

He had a long-term girlfriend up until March and then they broke up because she moved to London for work. And London's not a far flight from Italy if we're thinking about it like that. You know what I mean? So yeah, my question before was gonna be, like how can I get this guy to see me and date me? But now my question is A, why are men doing this?

This is insane. This is the third time. Why is this even, like everything I've been told about dating and men is like, they wanna get off the app immediately and see you and have sex. But this is like the opposite, this complete opposite. They just want the emotional thing.

I think anytime, this is so funny cause I had dinner with some girlfriends last night and one of them was telling me, basically the exact same thing. She's been like talking to this guy for months and months and months and months. And he like, she's like, we live 15 minutes from each other. Like come over, come over, let's hang out,

let's go to dinner, let's do something. And he won't do it. And I think anytime there is a scenario where the man prefers to talk over the phone or over text and not meet you in person, there's something he's hiding. 100%. Way easier to hide something over the phone. I don't know if it's a girlfriend or wife,

but there is something about him that he is hiding from you. That's what I think. And it doesn't always have to be a girlfriend or something that obvious. It could just, yeah, who knows what it is. I think the point is. Who cares?

Yeah. Like. And I think also, I think. He could have prosthetic legs. Yeah. I also don't think it's even, it has to be even that like nefarious at times. I think first of all, like to help you out,

you have to stop trying to figure out why men do this. And men might do it for different reasons, right? It could be they're hiding a girlfriend, they're hiding a second family. He's trying to get back together with his ex. Maybe that kind of dark, more nefarious, manipulative thing is going on. Also in 2024, I think technology has created

this like catfishing, like why do people catfishfish right like people like to make fun of people who've been catfish is like oh they're crazy they should know better but the thing about catfishing is these people are like getting to know these people whether it may not be real people but they are they're building these emotional connections that they can be very detached from right and? And so I think why do people do this, including men and women, is because like, he's getting, you got something out of this. You even said for yourself, like you developed

this connection, it might not have been a real connection, it probably was a connection like mostly it was in your head, but you, like you woke up every day looking forward to message with this guy. You know what I'm saying? Like you enjoyed talking about this guy with your girlfriends, you know? No, I didn't actually.

I made another rule that I'm not allowed to talk about until the third date with my friends because they all poisoned my mind and make me think we're getting married. That's great. Well, I love that you have that rule, but that rule doesn't do you any good because you're so, like it's like fine.

You're isolated. Your rule has, like it's more of a rule about protecting your ego and not sounding foolish to your girlfriends rather than protecting you from these guys that you're investing in. And allowing your friends to hold you accountable. Yeah, so you're like, I won't tell them yet.

Like, but you're kind of hiding it from your friends, not like holding yourself accountable. For sure, they probably would have told you. They would have been like, babe. When they were first like couple minutes into the story, I was like, she has to go far, far away from this man. But also you have to recognize too, it's just like, that's how Natalie and I met at first.

We met online, you know? Granted it only took two or three weeks for us to meet in person, but like I've gotten to know other women before, you know, I know nothing happened before I met Natalie, but like in an alternate universe. Like, it can be fun to get to know people online because there's a freedom to it.

Like, you can kind of be honest about things that you, you know, he can tell you he shit his pants. Like, you're kind of not a real person to him. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's a certain level of like, you know what, I can kind of tell you anything. Well, I can tell you anything because like, I'm not really invested, you're not even real.

You are investing so much time and energy trying to figure this person out. You have all these rules, you're waiting up, he's gonna ghost me. This guy is a total fucking stranger to you. You don't know him, he's not even real. You know, so everything you are learning, you're learning about him without really knowing him.

You know, because you could have spent three years talking to this guy online. Were you FaceTiming? Yeah, yeah. But even still, you could be FaceTiming him, but like until you meet someone in person, you're still like, you still don't know a lot about them, even if it's just their aura, their scent, their vibe, just little

things that go a long way about, you know. But why were you so willing to invest so much energy and time with someone who you didn't know? I tried. I was like, let's not do this. Let's cut this shit. And you text me when you're free. I tried, but he seemed so sincere

and he seems so like, I don't want to risk losing you to someone like that whole thing. And I felt for it. I just I'm an idiot. You said something earlier that I. No, you're not an idiot. You're not. No, no, no.

I'm delusional. People lie. It's not your fault for believing it. Yeah, it's also not your fault for wanting to see the best in people. Like what, you liked what you saw or what you heard, and you wanted to do a ride for it. I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I think it says more about him.

But at the same time, I think the main thing you need to look back to is you need to follow your gut. Because at the beginning, you knew something was funky, and then you to look back to is you need to follow your gut. Because at the beginning you knew something was funky and then you let him continue to convince you otherwise, but you should have just listened to yourself from the beginning. Yeah, you ladies are being really kind. I think.

Well, you know how Nick is, so. Here we go. I forgot what you said. It was when you first tried to set that first boundary with him, you know, and you did all the right things. Yeah. And then you said you felt, you said something that really, it stuck with me and I wanted to bring it back.

Was it that like one of two things could happen? Like either this fizzles out or I build up someone in my head that's not real and I get attached? Cause I definitely thought about that. No, you said that you felt bad for, you said that you wanted to see him and you felt bad for pushing him to see you. Yeah, there was that.

Yeah. Well, first of all, don't ever feel bad for enforcing a boundary. So recognize what your boundaries are. Your boundary was like, I'm not gonna invest a ton of my time and energy in people I haven't met in person. That seems normal, right?

That's a healthy boundary, right? Super easy to enforce, right? Not that complicated. You tried to do that. And listen, that's fine that he's boundary, right? Super easy to enforce, right? Not that complicated. You tried to do that. And listen, that's fine that he's busy, right? But like, it doesn't, you weren't doing anything crazy. You didn't say screw you, you didn't lose your shit on him. What are you apologizing for, right?

You just simply said, listen, you're busy, I'm busy. I wanna protect myself. You don't even have to explain why you're setting this boundary. It's not, you do not have to explain normal things to people. Like, hey, I just don't wanna get super invested and waste a bunch of time with someone I haven't met in person, right?

We're strangers for each other. And he was like, no, no, no, no, no. And like, why were you so willing to like not enforce that boundary just because he disagreed with you. You know, again, it's your boundary and even though he wanted to keep talking, you thought that was like, oh well his desire to keep talking to me even though he can't see me in person is more important than me knowing that until I meet this

person in person, I am risking falling in love with a not real person. Yeah, no, you're not wrong. I think I caved. It was the first time I enforced that boundary after the other times that this has happened to me. And you know what, if I'm being completely honest with myself, I got the response I secretly wanted, which was, no, I don't want to lose like you know

You weren't actually enforcing a boundary you were setting a trap. I was I was no no I was so down I was so down to not do that texting. I really really mean it But there's a difference between you yeah, but yeah But there's like there is a difference between you like saying something to see what he might say and being open to either scenario. So the way you're telling it is, I told him this thing, I was totally fine with not talking to him, but deep down, if I'm being totally honest, deep down, I wanted the reaction he gave me,

which is to insist that we keep talking, to tell me how much he's enjoyed. To want me to fight for me, to chase me. Yeah. And that's the response he wanted. So in reality me to fight for me, to chase me. Yeah. And that's the response he wanted. So in reality, it wasn't a boundary, it was a trap. You were trying to set him up to elicit a response. You were fishing.

Which isn't. I don't think I did that intentionally. Yes, yes, I agree. I'm not saying it was Machiavellian. I don't think you were. Yes, exactly. That's what's important. Of course you're not doing it, I'm setting a trap.

I can't acknowledge that. That's what's important. Like, of course you're not doing it, I'm setting a trap. I can acknowledge that. That's why we get ourselves in these situations, because we're not conscious that we're doing it. You've convinced yourself it was a boundary, and in reality it was a trap. Well, how do I know in the moment that these things are real? That's where the delusion comes in.

You know better, like, come on. Like, because you, how do we know? Because all you have to do, the only boundary you have to set is saying, I'm not going to have more than three conversations with someone I haven't met in person. And if they're too busy to meet me, then they're too busy for me to invest my energy in.

That's not complicated. Yeah, yeah. You also can't build a future with someone that you're not gonna be able to see. So how long is this gonna go on? Even if you did go on one thing with him. So it's like, hey man, you're a busy guy, I'm a busy person, you're hot, I'm hot, like when you have time, let's circle back and we'll figure it out. But until then, this is just make believe. And it's not 2020, we're not going

through a pandemic, we don't have to find different ways to have human connection. Like I don't have time to emotionally invest in strangers. You know what I'm saying? And listen, if you meet a guy online who lives across the country, you might have to bend that boundary. With Natalie, she was living in Savannah, I was living in LA.

Let's say I was in your situation where I had a couple situations where I got caught up with someone and ended up meeting me. I would have had to make an exception for Natalie if I wanted to because it's like, well, it's going to be a couple weeks before we can see each other in person. You know how to set these boundaries. You just have to be more honest with yourself and you have to simplify what those boundaries

are and then you have to be willing to enforce them. And like I said before, knowing that you're not going to have multiple conversations with strangers is very simple and very easy for you to follow through. And you have to be able to set aside this guy or these men or these strangers saying, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you are worth me talking to even though I don't know you because everything I've heard about you is so amazing

and so unique and so special. And you're like, say more, oh my God, just eating it. So yeah, I don't know what these men want or what they're doing or what their intentions are, it doesn't fucking matter. And you have all the control and power to prevent this fight cycle from going on and on. And that is the setting some very basic,

very simple, common sense boundaries with yourself and being willing to enforce it. And don't let your ego and that need for feeling special Convince you to ignore that boundary Because what you really want is to be feel validated. Yeah. No, I agree with you. I do I think It's just hard because a part of me thinks like I don't know, I go for these guys that are very, very busy because I'm a very busy person and I very much prioritize my life before anything, my career, my friends. I'm very blessed.

I have a great life. And I feel like I go for these guys that are, quote unquote, on the same level in terms of their expectations of time. I'm not looking for a boyfriend where I see him every day. That sounds respectfully like insane to me. Like I don't want a man in my house type of thing. But I go for these types of guys that I think are more unavailable because I'm kind of unavailable. And as you were talking, I've been like thinking about it and I'm like, am I doing this because the version of them in my head is way better than anything that they're gonna have in real life.

You know what I mean? Maybe, yeah, but you have to be willing to find out for yourself also. And I'm just like giving you some tough love here. I'm not denying that you're busy, but you're not that busy because you clearly have a bunch of time to spend your emotional energy investing in a total stranger.

And you are acting like your thoughts that go on in your head and you taking the time to share this story with us isn't like time that you could be investing in work or friends or all these other things. So like you're not as busy as you say you are because you are wasting a ton of energy on these strangers. So yeah, no, it's fair. Okay. Okay. So listen, the good it's fair. Okay. Okay. So listen, the good news is, is you're not crazy. You're not delusional.

You're like very close to being able to do this. But just when you catch yourself saying like, I don't know what these men are doing. I can't figure these guys out. Like, that's a signal to you. Like why, why would a man want this? I don't know. I don't care. You cannot get inside of a man's head. You cannot, you cannot try.

You don't want to be in there. Well, that's your ego. That is you saying, I'm so special that I need everyone to explain their intentions to me. And that's way too complicated and impossible because I can't speak for all men. I'm not like all men, I'm not like all people.

You know what I'm saying? Everyone's different. I can generalize and I can guess, but that's way harder for you to just not invest in a bunch of strangers and let them say, hey, do you wanna meet? And if not, you just move on. And you're just trying to figure out,

it's a bit entitled, to be honest, that you think you're entitled to knowing everyone's intentions and figuring it out, you know? And instead of doing that, why don't you just focus on your rules and your boundaries and simplify that and then let the people who actually want to meet you and actually want to get to know you, allow them to come into your life when they're ready

and when you're ready as well. Yeah, I know, I think that's totally fair. I just am so curious. I'm like, I need to let it go. Gotta let it go. I know, I need to let it go. I'm just like, I'm just so curious, man. But I promise, moving forward.

I'll tell you the answer. There's a million different answers. Again, you have to let it go because you are trying to justify all the time you wasted. You're doing the thing where it's just like, I can't break up with him because I've been dating him for so long. I need to know this answer

because I've invested already so much in this guy. You gotta let it go. You just have to call it what it is, is a sunk cost, and instead of investing more because your ego is demanding answers, you just have to be willing to let it go. And until you do that, you're always gonna be at risk of investing in bad investments. Like, the problem here is not these men,

it's your willingness to keep investing in a bunch of things that are saying, hey, I'm a bad investment, I'm a bad investment. Instead of you cutting your loss, you're just like, let's just see if we can turn it into a good investment. Let's just try, you know, let's give them one more shot. Like, the Instead of you cutting your loss, you're just like, let's just see if he can turn into a good investment. Let's just try. Let's give him one more shot.

The fact that you were saying, waiting for a picture for him, when you say it out loud, yeah, it is kind of fucking nuts. You gotta like, you just gotta stop. Yeah. Yeah. So, all right? All right.

You're right. No, you're totally right. I agree with everything that you're saying and I appreciate the scolding because I think I needed to hear it. The scolding. Which is why I wrote in. Because as I was writing in, I'm like, honestly, he needs to like absolutely hand my ass to

me right now because this is just so unacceptable. So I appreciate it. All right. Thank you. Thank you for the call. Check back in with us in a couple of months and see if you've changed your perspective on connecting with strange men. Or if you finally met up with them.

Yeah. Who knows what will happen? Don't do that. No, no, no, no, no, no. He's blocked, deleted. Okay, okay, get it in. No, no, no, no. That's not happening. Okay, okay. That's gone. Okay. Yeah. And they would if they wanted to. Just remember that. Yep.

All right. 100%. Okay. Thanks, guys. All right, take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right, what were we talking about before the call? It was Melinda on Lives. Oh, yes.

So, Melinda on Lives. I would love to get your perspective, Micah. We obviously have litigated the men's behavior, but obviously these shows, they can be fun to watch, but as we know, we live in a time where people are often, even on this show, we've heard they're weaponizing feelings and weaponizing words and things like that. What do you make of Melinda, despite all of Harry's problems and his behavior not being okay?

Melinda was accusing Harry on live in lies of forcing himself on her and using language like aggressive and forcing and things like that, and now watching it back, we now see that if anyone was the aggressor, it was Melinda in that situation. Certainly it was equal. Certainly it was if, yeah. If anything, it was equal and possibly Melinda had her moments of being the aggressor. What do you make of that situation? I mean, I haven't seen Melinda's lives at all,

so I'm just taking it as that's what she was saying. I think that when people like us, we are literally so in the media and people take every word and run with it, I think you need to be careful what you say, especially when you say things like, what was it, force himself on her? Not only is that a lie, but that's also something

that can be detrimental to someone. If that's not true, don't say that. For all of Harry's faults, you don't wanna put that out there. That's something that could really affect him and his life and career. I'm all for team not Harry, don't get me wrong. But at the same time, if that's not true, that's just absolutely not something that you should say.

If it is. He can be wrong, and it you can justify making up things he's doing he's doing plenty on his own that we don't need to make up accusations that he's not doing do you do you think everyone just thought there was no footage of him and Melinda and yeah I think a hundred percent I think that he had no idea that there was footage I don't think Jess had any idea that there was footage. I had no idea there was footage. And I'm wondering how. I'm like, I thought we all had mics on. I'm like, what's going on? So like, I'm not,

I guess I'm not shocked there is, but I had no idea. I'm so happy there was. I'm so happy that he actually said the words, did you get that kiss? Because I know he somehow still would have probably continued to lie about it if he didn't say those exact words. So I mean, I think it's very vindicating for everyone involved. And I think it would be kind of Melinda's kind of hero moment if she hadn't said all

the things that she said as well. Like it would have been very vindicating, but instead it's negative for both people. She could have been such a girl's girl in that moment where she could have been like, listen, yeah, we kissed and I played a role and I want to take responsibility for both people. She could have been such a girl's girl in that moment where she could have been like, listen, yeah, we kissed, and I played a role, and I want to take responsibility for my part. But at the same time, now I'm realizing how invested you are in this relationship.

And then having Harry be like, she's just here for 15 minutes, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then for it to come out and it play out exactly as Melinda has said on the show. But the fact that she didn't think there was any footage or audio and now has kind of changed it to be more in her favor. I think that is a good point though,

because it's like if Harry was telling Melinda, because at this point, Melinda hasn't even seen Harry and Jess together, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, she probably doesn't even know. So there's no way that she knew that Harry and Jess were like as serious as they were. Well, remember she came to the house and he kept talking about her boob job.

Yeah, that did happen before the mixer. Oh, because she was at the house. Okay, so maybe he did, maybe she did. She came in on a date with someone. Oh, and it was a match. But she could still maybe not been totally aware. Maybe that house was serious. I mean, to give her a bit of a doubt,

maybe she was like, I don't know, we're on perfect match. Or where things were at. Yeah. Yeah. Or where things were at at that point, like if he was feeding to her, like, oh, like, because she said that he was saying that him and Jess probably didn't have a future because of where they lived. Let's say that was said, let's say that she

was choosing to believe that, then maybe it makes sense if she was like, come on, like, just do it, just do it. But when she saw everything else that was playing into it, I feel like I'd be like, shit, like, I'm sorry. Like, I didn't realize the gravity of the situation. Like, I shouldn't have maybe played into that. It also implicates all of the men who stood beside Harry and were bro coding up to Jess being like, he didn't say anything, he didn't do anything wrong, he didn't this, he didn't that.

And then in the footage it shows Chris, Stefan, someone else, I don't know who it was, who was standing with him when he's talking to producers, asking if they got that kiss, but there was someone right there. All of them knew it happened. Oh, 100%. And I'm sure they all knew secrets about each other

and they were willing to keep them because it's like they were protecting each other. And I think- They're so dumb, because it's on a fucking camera. Yeah. It wasn't on camera, they had audio of it. Yeah.

But still, they like, they- They wear necklaces, better microphones are right there. They're all mic'd up. If you've been on a reality TV show once, you should know better. Like if you have a mic around your neck, you are being recorded like I think yeah I think Harry could have

done anything in these moments and the boys would have stuck beside him like could have cut off one of stevens toe and he would be like that was my fault yeah like it that's what it was I didn't want that toe anyways he was like no that's always been gone Harry said it was gone. It was about to go. I've never had that toe. I've never had that toe. Like it's such a dick for all these guys to like suck Harry's dick. It's just like... It was, I don't know. It was all. Anyways, Micah, great to see you. Yeah, it's been a ride. No, I'm so happy to see you guys again and be able to tell the tea. Thank you for coming on. This was a lot of fun. What's next for you?

No, literally, I don't know. Summer in Europe? Okay. Oh, you're living in LA now? Minding my business, yeah. I just moved to LA. I'm loving it so far and I'm excited to see like, You single?

What happens next? I am single. Okay, all right. I'm single, my DMs are not open though. Find me in person, maybe at a farm, or somewhere wholesome. Somewhere normal. Yeah, no, I'm a vet.

A farmer's market. A farmer's market, yeah. That's more likely to be where I am. I'm like, where are the farms? But yeah, so definitely single and excited to meet the right person, but not necessarily looking. Well, again, thanks for coming. It's been a blast talking with you.

Wish you the best of luck. Thanks for being so open. There's been a ton of fun chatting with you. Thank you guys for listening. We thank Micah for her time. Make sure to follow her on social work. Can people follow you? Yeah, follow me.

Micah, period, Lucia. Spell Lucia. L-U-S-S-I-E-R. All right, follow Micah wherever she is online. Don't forget to send in your questions at asknicathefileFiles.com for all things texting office hours. Ask Nick again if you enjoyed this texting office hours.

We have a bunch of these calls like this every Monday. Bye.