The Viall Files - E774 Going Deeper with Jess Vestal

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper, with Perfect Match’s Jess Vestal.  Today we have a bonus episode, and boy is it filled with JUICY tea. How was Jess’ time on Perfect Match? How has her experience been in the public eye? And, where is she now in dating? “If that’s what clout means, I don’t want any of it”  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0J6DW1KeDX6SpoVEuQpl7z?si=c35995a56b8d4038 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  Thank You to Our Sponsors: Etsy - Keep commerce human. Discover small businesses on Etsy! Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @jess.ves @ciararobinson @justinkaphillips @leahgsilberstein @dereklanerussell Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 02:15 - Getting To Know Jess 20:48 - Love Is Blind 25:40 - Perfect Match 31:27 - Past Relationships 34:41 - Intentions 43:20 - Potential 47:44 - Harry 55:06 - The Footage 59:43 - Getting Back Together 01:10:58 - Beach Photos 01:12:41 - Second Breakup 01:33:24 - Changes 01:40:01 - Buzzwords 01:48:24 - Whats Next 01:57:54 - Outro

You're crazy. All right. Are we ready? Hell yeah. Yeah. Should we say a prayer? Hold hands, take a breath. Stop, because I'm into that.

No, I did a lot of that this morning. I'm good. I'm good. I'm fine. Everything's fine. Jess. Yes. Welcome to the show. breath stop because I'm into that no I did a lot of that this morning I'm good I'm good I'm fine everything's fine Jess yes welcome to the Vile Files welcome back welcome back to the Vile Files we are so grateful to have you thank you for having me I think I'm happy to be here you think yeah we missed you we are happy to have

you back I feel like it's gonna be to be cleansing. I hope so. I hope so, too. What's what are you most nervous about? I think just revisiting everything and talking about it out loud. Yeah, obviously, I've had some time to reflect and I feel at peace, but I've not outwardly said much about it. So we've noticed you were quiet online. You're you're you're what is it? Your silence was deafening.

What did they say? Was it? I almost felt like no one cared, which was not true. Better for me. I needed to protect my. We saw differently online. We are glad that you disconnected. If that's what happened. I did. I had to disconnect for a little bit. I was off TikTok for a couple of weeks. I actually deactivated my account altogether.

We do that often? Yeah. I'm pretty good at just not opening up now. I just delete the app because I'm like, I don't need the app, I don't need to scroll. But you deactivated the entire account. I did. She's gone.

And then I was like, um, you know, this is partially like my livelihood now and how I provide for myself in autumn. So I was like, hang on, let me just reactivate it and then delete the app. So I did that and I- What do they say, post and ghost? Post and ghost.

I've not been able to master that yet. I wanna post and hang out. I wanna post and see what's going on. I wanna read the room. No, the room never matters. I'm learning. I'm still new here. Yeah, you are.

Like I truly do not, like no one said I was gonna be good at this. Like I don't go here. Well, I know we have a lot to get into and I know a lot of people are very anxious for us to dive into Perfect Match with you and then the aftermath of all that stuff. But before we get there,

I think I speak hopefully for everyone, your fans, my audience, Netflix Nation. I don't know, is it Netflix Nation these days? Bachelor Nation's gonna be mad you said that. They'll live. Netflix Verse. Or they won't. Ooh, Netflix Verse. I don't know.

Yeah. But other than you coming on The Vile Files for the first time for kind of a brief, how would he do before you hopped on a flight? It was very brief. You haven't really been out there chatting. I feel like a lot of people aren't that familiar with you and like your past and who you were and what you've been all through.

And so if you're down to kind of start there and then we'll jump into the drama. Yeah, no, I would agree. I mean, I'm so grateful to have the fan base that I have and had so many people love and support me and reach out and say that parts of my story that they've heard really resonated with them. And I'm like, that's amazing. But I feel like, I mean, collectively between the two shows, I've maybe had like 10 minutes total of screen time.

Like I really wasn't there long. So I'm like, I'm so grateful for the love and support, but I do want, you know, now that I have this huge platform, I feel like I can do something with it. And doing that, I feel like I should share more about myself and where I come from. Well, where do you, what sort of beginning? Where were you born? I'm just kidding.

Where were you born? But yes, what was your life like pre-fame, pre-love is blind? So pre-love is blind, I was single for a couple of years. I don't know if I shared that last time. Honestly, you know, I'd come off the tail end of a lot of bad relationships. I don't think I had ever experienced a relationship in adulthood that wasn't painful, that where I didn't experience betrayal, where I didn't experience, you know,

the foundation of our relationship being completely broken by things that are just not acceptable in a relationship. So I was single for a little over two years before I went on Love is Blind. I went through the whole process of like, okay, like the common denominator here has to be me. Okay. You know, like I feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing in these relationships, but I keep picking the same kind of person.

What was that person? Who do they look like? I mean, not physically, I mean. Physically, we've all learned, like, that's clear as day. Well, I don't know, depending on how you ask, because you can be physically very attractive and be so hideous on the inside. Sure, but I guess, you know, to the point, like,

who was a type of person that you were? The fixer-upper, like, the one that's like, I can change them, they would change for me. And like, I've crossed paths and I've had really good options and I've change them, they would change for me. And like I've crossed paths and I've had really good options and I've had really good men be interested in me. But I always go for the ones that, honestly, I think I trauma bond with them.

Or I mean, maybe I'm trauma bonding and they're just like floating in the ether. But I realized, I was like, I need to take some time to heal and figure out what I want and figure out what's good for me because I don't wanna go through this anymore. I was in therapy, people throw therapy around so loosely. I've been in therapy my whole life.

In childhood, I grew up in foster care, being in therapy. You grew up in foster care. I did, yeah. Let's rewind. I didn't know if you wanted to start that early. Well, I think that's a very unique experience. And also, I don't think a lot of people talk about,

people talk about adoption, things like that. Foster care, I feel like for the most part, it's something you see in movies, where it's just like the origin tales of some orphan who becomes a hero. But what is foster care? I mean, we know what foster care is, but I think there's a lot of unknowns

about that experience. What was that like for you? Were you bouncing between houses? Do you remember that? I was. I mean, I went into foster care for the first time when I was four, in between the ages of four and 16 when I finally got adopted by my last foster family. So from four to 16, you were in the system, so to speak. Yeah. So I probably was

in 15 or so homes over the years. Oh my. In between doing that and my biological mom, my parents were both addicts. Okay. They both suffered from severe drug addiction. So I would go into foster care and then my mom would get clean and then I'd go back into her custody. And then it was, that was like an ongoing cycle. So I would go into foster care and then my mom would get clean and then I'd go back into her custody. And then it was that was like an ongoing cycle. So go in between me living with her and then living with different families. Do you feel like that is kind of did that hurt you in any sort of way to like be in the system and then go back to your mom and then oh no, back in the system? Like how was that for you to kind of it? It of like I'm back with my mom?

Well, you know, children are so resilient. So like in my childhood, it was just, it was like a normal thing to me. I mean, I was always like hoping for the best, but it didn't, I didn't realize. That's another thing is like experiencing these shows and seeing myself on TV and seeing decisions that I made, it's like making my childhood come full circle

because children like compartmentalize because they're in survival mode, especially in situations like that. So it was hurtful and it was always an ongoing cycle of like, I just, I want to feel chosen. I want to feel like, you know, I'm worth someone keeping me around for a long time. So yeah, I was in and out of a lot of different homes.

But I never thought I'd see the day where I could feel like I'm really grateful for that, because it really equipped me for experiences like this. And that's what I want people to realize, like I'm built very different. Like this, it felt like the worst thing that had ever happened to me, like watching the show back and getting eaten alive by the internet. But like, and the reality of it, like I've been through so much worse. Like it's really, I don't wanna say it's neither here nor there, but like in the grand scheme of things,

like, I mean, I've gone through worse than this before I was even like, you know, an adult. And you survived. And I survived, so. Were all of the foster homes, were they good people? Because I think a lot of them are not, unfortunately. None of them were. The only one I really have good things to say about

is my mom, my last, the family that. Chose you. Oh my God, I'm gonna cry. 10 minutes in. Yeah, the family that chose me. I'm sorry you went through all of that. No, it's okay, don't be sorry.

I'm really grateful for it. I don't really know what to do with it yet, but I know all of that is gonna, I'm gonna be able to do something with it. But yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah, the family that chose me. God, I didn't think I would be this emotional this early on in the interview, but yeah.

I think that was the first time when I was 16 that I felt like, okay, yeah, this is is it like I do I feel chosen and which was crazy because at that point I was almost old enough to age out of the system and I was on my way to actually have to live with another family and my mom was like and survive on your own yeah my mom thought I call her my mom the family that adopted me um she was like no no, you're here forever. This is your last stop. So, but having said that, yeah,

none of the homes I lived in were good. They weren't good people. Like, I don't really know how they were qualified to even like take care of their own children. But like you said, I survived it and I'm here to tell the story and hopefully do something with that and make a difference It's obvious that you've been in a lot of therapy just kind of watching you and getting to know you a little bit

I can't help but wonder I'm sure you've talked about this in therapy But something now that I've learned in therapy is childhood traumas and how we can bring those into our adulthood Talking about your picker. Your mind's broken, or it was. Yeah, I think that's a rite of passage for adulthood. Yes, yeah. I can't help but wonder, you know, what's your relationship with your biological mother today? God, Nick, you're hitting me with all the good questions. So I have to keep her at kind of arm's length. I have to keep her at a distance

because throughout my childhood even like and being taken away from her and being in different homes a lot of times I'd run away and like go and find her to help take care of her and in my adulthood when I started working and like making money, I always tried to make sure that she was taken care of and had what she needed and that is enabling. And she, I always joking say like she was my firstborn child before I had Autumn. But then when I had Autumn, I realized like that's not something I could continue to do because I had Autumn to take care of like that takes precedence over everything. I don't really have much of a relationship with my biological mom, but she is alive. I don't know if she's well, but I've not really figured out a good healthy way to navigate

that because I want to help her more than she wants to help herself. She's still in active addiction. Yeah. That must be brutal brutal to wanna obviously help someone you love. And I guess the reason why I ask is I can't help, but you know, wonder if you're, you know, we listen, you're not the only person who has dated a fixer upper. We, a lot of us have been there, but it does come from somewhere.

And this desire to believe in your mom and want her to change and get healed and get better, I can't help but wonder if maybe that is what's drawing you to some of these men. I know that that's why. I know that that's why. And I also hate the term daddy issues, but my dad, my biological dad, he committed suicide when I was seven.

So, no, it's okay. I know this all feels so heavy, but I promise you I've practiced so much acceptance with it. No, we appreciate you sharing, because it's... But that's also a thing, because I'm like, okay, well, there was never, I never had a way to like feel chosen with him. He just quite literally was like, yeah, I'm gonna leave the chat. I mean, that's really dark humor. But like with my mom, I always felt that desire of like, I want her to choose me. I want her to choose me over all of the other things that she wants. I want her to choose me over addiction.

And in therapy, I learned addiction is an actual disease. It's a chemical imbalance, it's not a matter of it's you or her drug of choice. They don't look at it that way. And I'm like, I'm her child. Like how could she not? Because I look at Autumn and I'm like, there's nothing more powerful than my love for her. Like nothing will ever come before her. So that was a hard thing to accept with my mom is like she might, she might not ever choose me. So I think that that did, it does, it does spill over into my relationships in adulthood. And I think that's really hard for people to understand and maybe even empathize with if that's not something they've experienced

because from the outside looking in, it just looks like, you know, you're being weak or you're being a doormat or you're, you know, accepting things that you, you know, draw, you drew a hard line in the sand that you wouldn't. And it's really not as black and white as that. Yeah. Because for me, I know we're not getting into the show yet, but everyone's, you know, they were watching the show and it was like pure entertainment for them. And I'm watching myself and I'm like, all I can see is the like, oh my God, all I can see is the little version of me that just, I would literally stand at the doorstep and just wait, wait for change, wait to be chosen. And I felt like that's why I was just standing there floating in the ether doing like it was a much more serious and deep experience for

me than I think people realize. Yeah, it sounds like we talk a lot about relationships on the show and I talk about hope a lot is in a way that can be a dangerous thing and it almost sounds like Like I think usually we look at hope is a good thing, you know We want to be hopeful but in your case it almost sounds like hope has been like your worst enemy Yeah, but I don't want I don't want to hope to be confused with desperation because it was never that. You know, I've unfortunately seen and I've heard a lot of people talk about like,

oh, she just so desperately wants a man. No, I don't. I've got more men beating down my door than I know what to do with. It's never that. It's subconsciously me wanting to feel the success story, me feeling like I want to be, I pick the worst of the worst,

not saying that anybody in particular is that, but I pick, I think, the most unlikely situation for me to have the success story with, because that, to me, would have felt like an accomplishment because I've never had it. Yeah, I mean, listen, people are going to say mean things online, but we all hope for the best for ourselves. We all want the love story. You know, I think that's the challenge of getting older and doing therapy is trying to strike that balance between maturing and being practical, but still like dreaming

and still going for it and still taking risks. We've all been hurt in relationships for various reasons. You gotta get back up and you gotta keep going and that is hope. Sometimes hope works against you though. So it's not desperation obviously, it's the desire to want better for yourself, which literally everyone has, you know.

And that's the tough part is when we run into people who sense that hope and take advantage of it. I think that, but I also think, and this might be the enabler in me, I do also know that people can only operate from like their perspective and like their experience. And I think that hurt people do hurt people. I do know that. And sometimes they might be aware of it

and sometimes that's just literally all they know, which is why I think I do trauma bond with people. I've like briefly dated people who have seemingly like never faced adversity or had any childhood trauma. And I'm like, I love that so much for you, but we're on two completely different sides of the world here. Yeah. I mean, like hearing you talk about your childhood and mine, like I had a very blessed childhood. That being said, we all have our experiences, right? Whoever you are, I don't care, privilege doesn't care about heartbreak,

or we all go through shit. I have a very blessed childhood, but I completely relate to that. I've had in my adult life dating struggles and relationships and yada, yada, yada, we all do. And so when I've met people in the past that were like I've you know my first relationship and I've never been broken up with or yada yada I would always steer clear of those people because to me it was just more like I can't

connect with that I can't relate to that like I you know so it makes a lot of sense and I feel that and maybe I was doing it the wrong way because it would be the same thing if I had met someone and you know We're talking and getting to know each other and they seemingly hadn't faced adversity or they hadn't had a serious relationship Or had their heart broken. I'm like, oh my god I don't want to be like you're guinea pig. Yeah, cuz I feel like and some of those things, you know You have to go through in life. There's less there's a lesson to be learned in You know, you have to go through in life. There's a lesson to be learned in everything, truly. So I'm like, I don't know about that

if you've not had any serious relationships. So when I'm dating someone and they've had this really tumultuous, crazy, you know, if they've had a crazy past in dating, I'm like, oh my God, me too. So you must be at the end of the road. You know, you've experienced it all, you've been hurt too. There's no way we could hurt each other.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that's the thing, like, it's not practical to, you know, it's, oh fine, I go for the fixer uppers, you know, it's just like, no one's gonna be like, oh, well then, like you say, it doesn't mean you should look for the people who are just like, yeah, no, I'm good, like, I have no trauma here, I'm good, like I'm healthy, healed, whatever. And then how do you distinguish for the people who are just like, yeah, no, I'm good. Like, I have no trauma here, I'm good.

Like, I'm healthy, healed, whatever. And then how do you distinguish between the people who say they've healed versus the people who show they've healed? And how do you tell the difference? Well, people who, you know, like me, who have said that they've done the work, and doing the work is not like, you know,

I've done it and I'm over it. Like, it's an ongoing thing, which that was a lesson I had to learn recently is, you know, it's like, you've got to maintain it's like, you know, like your brain is a muscle, you have to maintain it like you do the rest of the muscles in your body, you know, you can't just leave it and hope for the best. So when someone's like, you know, I've been in therapy, I've done the work like, and they're using words like past traumas and betrayal, and it's like, okay, well, they really get it.

I don't have to teach them that. Yeah, because I think you people, that phrase, I've done the work, it's become, like a lot of things these days, something people pick up on and then know how to use. I've learned, it's like doing the work to me, it's just like, it's learning tools. So it's like when someone says, oh, I've done the work,

to me, I've learned through experiences in the hard way that a follow-up question is like, well, what tools have you learned? Because to your point, it's an ongoing process, right? Like, the trauma doesn't go away. You just learn how to, you learn the tools to better emotionally regulate when you feel triggered. And so when you do feel that sensation,

instead of reacting negatively or using that trigger to overcompensate or whatever, you learn the tools to make healthier decisions in the moment. But that trauma, you will always have to apply those tools. And so to your point, using an analogy, you always gotta sharpen your tools. And if you don't sharpen your tools, eventually those tools don't work as well as they used to. And so if to your point using an analogy, you always got to sharpen your tools. And if you don't sharpen your tools, eventually those tools don't work as well as they used to. And one thing I had to also

learn was to give myself a little bit of grace because after doing the work so conscientiously for two years before going on Love is Blind, and then seemingly, I don't think I necessarily made any mistakes there. I mean, maybe I did. There was definitely some things to be learned. Watching that back, there were some things I wish I had picked up on more, but. Love is Blind?

Yeah. Like what? Like same thing. One of the things that Jimmy and I connected most on, which it wasn't shown, was our traumas. Like things we had went through in our childhoods and like, you know, and that wasn't shown, was our traumas, like things we had went through in our childhoods and like, you know, and that wasn't shown. I think on both shows, it looks like I was just being given breadcrumbs and falling in love with like nothing.

When in reality, like, both people I had been interested in, I had beautiful experiences with and really deep connections. So, uh, but anyway, the things I wish I had picked up on was, you know, I don't, I think that also may have been like a fixer-upper situation because I don't think that he was where I was with what we wanted out of a relationship, you know, but I wanted that success story. Like, he might not be ready for it, but he will be for me, you know? But yeah, watching both back,

I've had to give myself grace because I had done the work and after watching Perfect Match, I was like, how did I make such catastrophic, like very blatant mistakes? And I'm like, you know what? This is a lesson for me and a lot of people because you could have been in therapy for years and you might get back out there and start dating again

and make the same mistakes that you had made prior to going to therapy and doing the reflecting and realizing that you might have a hand in the bad relationships that you're in. I beat myself up really bad, like way worse than the internet did, if you can believe that, because I was just like, how dare me betray myself? But there was still a lesson to be learned there

because, you know, just because you've gone to therapy, like you said, it doesn't mean that you're healed. It doesn't mean you're not gonna make the same mistakes and still possibly pick the wrong people. Well, also, I mean, like people talk about vulnerability all the time, another buzzword people like throw out, but like being vulnerable is to kind of give yourself to someone, to trust, to embrace. You have to be vulnerable, especially in love and in relationships, is to give that person you're in a relationship with the opportunity to hurt you. That's vulnerability. And truly after and I

think every single person who has participated in Love is Blind would agree with this. After dating in the pods and doing that you have no choice but to lead with vulnerability because there's no distractions without even meaning to. There's no other way to date. You don't date any other way but except just being like, okay, this is everything about me. This is everything I want out of a relationship in life. Do you want to get married? It's like love is blind. That is one of the best things I think we all take away from it is the vulnerability piece that you learn. You learn so much about yourself and you learn that's truly the only way if you want a successful relationship is to give absolutely all of yourself and really

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Keep commerce human, discover small businesses on Etsy. So perfect match. Yeah. What mindset did you go in with? Believe it or not, I did not go in there thinking I was gonna meet anyone that I would be interested in. And everyone's like, maybe she didn't watch the first season.

I did, I did. I knew the premise of the show. I knew it was silly. I knew it wasn't serious. I knew people didn't go on there to get married. Like they did love is blind. For me, I was just kind of like, you know what? I know who I am.

I know I'm not gonna do anything salacious. Like the show is kind of known for. I'm just gonna go and maybe just have the spring break I never had, you know? The reality of it was, I just wanted to go and maybe make some friends and have a good time and go home. Also the stakes you went from getting married

to going on a vacation. Right. I was like, you know, that's fine if that doesn't happen. And I didn't think it would because it's not love is blind. Meeting someone on there and actually developing like real feelings,

especially with who it was, I never, like I did not see that coming. When, after you got there, like when did Harry kind of pop in and like when did it become the Harry and Jess show? I definitely wouldn't call it that. Because you know, for most of the show, he and I really weren't shown much.

There wasn't much to show because we were just kind of doing our own thing. Our relationship was really seemingly healthy and kind of lackluster compared to the other couples because we weren't doing anything crazy. I mean. So I guess, I mean, like, how did it start? Like, how did, when Harry came in

and like, how did he present himself? Did he give you a line? Like, who made the first move? Like, did you know who he was? Did you know anything about him? I'm definitely shooting myself in the foot here, but yes, absolutely I knew who he was. It would be better for me to lie and say,

no, my God, I had no idea. No, I knew who he was. You weren't living under a rock. Yeah, I knew who he was. I was aware of his past, but when we met, our first date was like three hours long and I think only like four minutes were shown. So we were out there talking for a really long time, like getting to know each other and it got deep really, really quickly.

And when he introduced himself, he was like, you know, I'm Harry, I'm from the first season of Too Hot to Handle. And he was like, what's, I'm Harry, I'm from the first season of Too Hot to Handle. And he was like, what's your name? Where are you from? I told him I was from Love is Blind, but my season hadn't been out yet. And I was like, I don't think I've ever seen the show that you were on. I don't I don't think I know. I played it like I didn't know him. And in my mind, I'm like, yeah, obviously, I know who you are.

And he's like, oh, well, don't watch it. You don't need to. And I'm like, I definitely watched it. But he was nothing. He was nothing like he was on TV. Like he was... How so? Well, obviously he was charming. Like that part remained.

But he was very insightful. And he was really smart. And he was very, very mature. Very... I know everyone's looking at me being like, No, no. But what I mean, I think- But what did he, yeah, how did you see maturity in him? He just, the way, he didn't talk at all

about anything silly. Like he talked about where he was at in his life and how he wanted a wife and children. I think they did show that part, how he was like, I'm ready to settle down. And we actually talked a little bit about his childhood and where he came from on that date, but that wasn't shown. And we just sat there for a really long time, like getting to know each other. And it was just, it was really easy. It didn't feel like I was talking to the Harry that like,

everybody knows. And it remained that way. Like throughout us dating on the show, he was very attentive, very selfless. Like in every single day, everything that he did before he did something for himself, he was either cooking for me or packing my bag before one of the challenges, checking in with me, making sure there was food in the house I could eat because you know I have Crohn's like,

so it was like, I mean it's always slim pickings for me but it was like extra slim pickings out in like Mexico in the jungle. So you kind of felt taken care of a little bit. I did, I did. He surprised you. I told him all the time I was like, you were the most pleasant surprise.

Like I kind of kept waiting for like the rug to get pulled out from underneath me for a little bit. I mean, obviously it ultimately did, but our relationship was actually very mature. I said it in another interview and absolutely got demolished for it. I think it was an interview I did with E! News. I said it was actually really beautiful.

And everyone was like, oh my God, this girl's insane. But they didn't show that, because that didn't make for good TV. How well he actually did treat me and how mature he actually really was. Yeah, so you're saying it was beautiful in the beginning because early on he was demonstrating behaviors that you thought was who he was.

And you know, I've noticed in dating, a lot of people will show fake interest in my daughter just because they know that really interests me and that's really easy to get me to talk about and it's really seemingly easy to butter me up that way. But he really did seem to take a genuine interest in getting to know about her and what she was like and what we were like and what our dynamic was like and what my day-to-day was like and taking her to school and packing her lunch in the morning.

Like it wasn't like me trying to volunteer that information to him. He really wanted to know like what my life was like with her and every time we would talk, I would kind of feel like he would be like turned off by it, but he was always like, that's really interesting. Like that really like makes me love you more. How did that compare to other men you've dated in the past?

Obviously having autumn, I'm sure you've experienced dating with a daughter and I'm sure you've had various experiences with men and how they feel about that. I guess like how did that compare and did that play a role? Well, since I've had Autumn, I mean she's 11 now, but I haven't done a ton of dating. I mean, it was mentioned a little bit on the show that I was engaged after I had her and that there was a joke on there

that I was engaged just because he was rich, which he was wealthy, but that's not why we were together. I mean, that was a silly thing to throw in on TV, but he and I were together for six years and he was a great man and he loved her and he accepted her. He and I had our differences and things we couldn't work through. So that's ultimately why we ended up not being together. But after him, I only dated one other person for a couple of years. I dated the next guy for two years and he actually never met Autumn.

Oh, wow. That's something I take really seriously that I think, I mean, I wish I had more time and opportunity to talk about, but he wasn't a great guy at all. Like, that was a situation where I wanted him for me, but I knew he wasn't good for her. So that was a thing. He and I were on and off for two years,

and I kept my relationship with him completely separate from her, because again, I kept wanting to feel that change within him. I could see the potential. I wanted him to be a good man and be a good example for her, but he never got to that place. So I never let him meet her. And then after that, like I'd been on random dates here and there, but no one, I never brought Autumn around any of the men that I dated other than the one I was engaged to. So, and going on like dates here and there, there were some guys that were just like,

yeah, no, I'm not really cool with this. That's not really a dynamic I could see myself fitting into. And some guys were like, yeah, I love that. I wanna be part of it. And sometimes it would be genuine and sometimes it wasn't. It was like just through trial and error that you just learned who was really interested and who wasn't.

And you could usually tell in like the questions they asked and like their reaction to things were like, when I would talk with Harry, he would genuinely be excited about being part of the family dynamic and seeing where he could fit in and how- Was that new for you? That feeling of dating a guy that you were excited about, being excited about your daughter?

Not really new, but I think it was really exciting to feel with him because that's one of the things that I never would have expected from him. I was like, well, this isn't something he's ever done with anyone before, but he wants to do it with me. He lives this crazy life and he's talking about changing everything around just so he can fit into how we live Which is completely different How did like looking back thinking about those conversations? How does that make you feel now? I Kind of wish we hadn't why I

think that would have like if I Why? I think that would have like if I hadn't invested so much so soon, I think it would have made it harder to like let go a lot sooner because things were really, really good until they weren't. But at the first sign of when they weren't is when I should have been like, yeah, no, this isn't worth the risk anymore. You mentioned he's smart. Do you feel like he's smart enough to know what to say?

Like do you feel when you look back at it now? Do you feel like all the things you said about your daughter that really touched you and made you excited? It made you feel that surprised Do you still think that came from a genuine place? I hope so. I don't wanna, for my own personal sanity, I don't wanna say that it didn't come from a good place. I'd like to think that I have a better read on someone than to think that I could be manipulated into thinking something like that was real when it wasn't.

I do think watching it back and seeing it from the outside looking in, I could see the struggle between, I think that he really did mean and want the things that he said to me, but he also is this completely other person that has this whole image that he has and wants to live up to.

So I wanna think that both were true. Like fuck boy personality. Yeah. I was just gonna ask him, Mike, do you think that like the Harry that you experienced was actually genuinely him and this whole like fuck boy persona is the act or the other way around?

I don't think that they're two mutually exclusive things. I think that he could be both. He has a way of being able to adapt and be whatever he needs and maybe wants to be in the moment. Like, I can see him and I could see the emotion and I can see how he was talking about me in his interviews and I can't, I mean, to this day,

I can't look at him and think there's no way he didn't mean any of it. Like, I don't wanna accept that. Like, I accept all of the horrible things too. I'm not in denial about them, but I don't wanna believe that there was absolutely zero, like, I don't wanna believe he wasn't genuine at all. Why?

I mean, what if it were true? I'll never know. I don't feel like it will do me any good to say, oh my God, he never cared about me at all, none of that was real. I think that both could have existed at the same time. And maybe that's me being an enabler. I used to say the same thing about my mom,

like, oh, she can do all these horrible things and neglect me, but you know, I'm still her first priority, she still loves me more than anything. You know, I think both maybe can, like, I don't know. And that's where I'm at right now, is trying to sort through all of that and figure out how to not make those kind of mistakes and maybe enable again.

But knowing him and experiencing him off camera also, that was the other thing, is the whole like fuck boy, like silly, never taking anything serious. Like naturally he's a really funny guy, or I would have never been with him in the first place. But off camera, he was even more wonderful. It's like when the cameras were on, he was on. But when it was just us and there were no cameras,

like, I think those are the things that I held on to that made it hard to walk away from. When do things take a turn? Um... On Perfect Match, I think that, and I don't know, like I was so far removed, like I truly was just there, I felt like in the background. There were so many times I felt like I was out of place, I felt like I don't want to be here, I felt like I was having imposter syndrome, like, and I would tell him that. There were so many times, more times than not at the end of the day, at the end of filming,

that I was like, I wanna leave, I don't wanna be here. I don't feel like I should be here. Like, I feel so out of place. And he would just be like, you probably are. Like, he, after getting to know me, he's like, wow, you're really not a cloud chaser. You're really not an influencer. You really only have, I think,

I had less than a thousand followers at the time. He's like, you're really just a regular human. Like this probably is a lot for you, but just focus on me, stay fixated on me and what we have and don't pay attention to any of these other things going on around us. And I'm like, okay, I can do that. I like it there, it's safe there.

Like he did feel like my safe space in there and all that chaos, believe it or not. I think it took a turn. I believe it, yeah, for sure. It's a very alone atmosphere of those shows. It truly is, even though there's so much going on around you. Like it's treacherous. Those atmospheres are designed

to strip away your support system. They take your phone, cut off you from your family, et cetera, et cetera. It's a social experiment, and they throw you into a social experiment. Your only friends are people you don't know and producers. That's not exactly an atmosphere of trust. True, it's not. So I did really cling on to him harder than I should have,

maybe, but I was still talking to Autumn every day and checking with her and telling her all the crazy things that were going on in the mornings when people would have their phones and they were taking content and doing all the influencer things, which I love and respect now that I'm in this space, but I would be on the phone with Autumn like,

oh, these grown people, these adults, look what they were doing in the background. And she's like, all right, well, if there are successful people in that space, you should probably be taking notes and doing it too. And I'm like, no, lame. Like I could never, now look at me. I didn't even have a TikTok at the time.

That's what's so funny. They'd be making TikToks and she'd be like, you need to figure out like, look what they're doing. Go hang out with them. But anyway, so I think it took a turn when like something switched where he and I were very, very serious and then all of a sudden, not as serious and then increasingly more not serious.

Do you feel like we saw that switch as the audience viewing the show? Maybe so, it didn't seem as abrupt because they did show him being silly and unserious more often than not, just because I think that made for better TV. If it had been like Love is Blind, they would have been showing all of the beautiful moments.

And he and I, like we didn't win any challenges and go on private dates because I was not having it in the sun, like the manual labor on the beach, I couldn't be bothered, I could not. And we'd go home at the end of the night and I'd be like, well, dang, I like I really wanted to go on a date with you and have some alone time. And he't be bothered. I could not. And we'd go home at the end of the night and I'd be like, well, dang, I like, I really wanted to go on a date with you and have some alone time. And he'd be like, it's fine. And he would set up little dates for us at the house. And like, someone brought out a sheet from Love is Blind,

like one of like the question prompts that we have on the show and like put it in our room. And I was like, oh, I'm about to teach you some things. And so we did that one night. But but that wasn't shown. But yeah, I don't think it was as an abrupt thing for the audience watching the show, because I mean, from episode one, they show him saying outlandish. I mean, and those things were true too, him doing off the wall things and saying really out of pocket things.

But you didn't see that when- I didn't, that's the thing. That was not my experience with him at all. I wasn't in the back corner with him while he was doing his interviews. I wasn't with him in the house before I got't, that's the thing. That was not my experience with him at all. I wasn't in the back corner with him while he was doing his interviews. I wasn't with him in the house before I got there. All I knew was my experience with him, which was very mature, which was very attentive,

which I couldn't have asked for more in the guy that I met and the guy that sold the dream that he sold to me. That is all I knew. Yes, I knew about his past, but I have a past too. And we had a very transparent, and you saw part of that on the show when I was like, I'm the last person to play with. I'm the last person on the planet.

I do not wanna be in your graveyard of relationships. If you're saying you really wanna do this with me, you're really doing it. Yeah, I don't think anyone can fault you for knowing what you know about his past, but then seeing a completely different person in front of you and trusting his actions. I mean, that's what everyone always says,

is like, actions speak louder than words. And it's like, well, his actions were showing you that he's changed and he's this good person. And he's... And they were. I was just like, you know what? You're asking me for a fair chance. And I'm hearing what you're saying.

You've got to be tired. Like, you have to be exhausted from all of that. Like, I hear that you want change and you want different. Like, what better time to do it than now? You want a fair chance? I'll give it to you. And you see he and I have that conversation. So, you know, I could have not taken the risk at all and been like, no, I know about your past like everyone else does.

I don't want to do this. But I think even after seeing all of it played back, I think I would have regretted it. I don't think. And there were other good potential matches there that I could have gone for, I guess, maybe. I don't know. No one was really going for me. I think once Harry like staked his claim on me,

like no one really... Yeah, that seemed pretty obvious. Yeah. Yeah. No one really went for me. At one point, I was like, do I stink? Like, why isn't any, which I don't, but like, I was like, why? No one would approach me like the mixers. Like, I'd be like, what is going on? Is it because I'm older? I was, I think the oldest female that was there, one of the oldest. I was like, I must just must because I'm old. Like, I don't

understand. And I think one of the guy, and they've been, I don't want to name drop it. Someone told me, they're like, no, it's because everyone knows that you're with Harry and we're not even gonna bother. I'm like, all right, yeah, fair. Like, I probably wouldn't jump ship, but like. Try me.

Yeah, like, try. See what happens. At its best, in the perfect match atmosphere, what was the potential of you and Harry in your mind? Of like working outside of the show? Yeah, like when before anything took a turn, you know, when you were here talking in this very intense atmosphere that, you know, anyone we've ever talked to and I've experienced

the same thing on Batch the World is that yes, you can criticize us for falling in love and, and, oh, it's only been a month and all this stuff, but obviously it's a very different kind of time-wraps in that atmosphere. Yeah. But at its best, what were you saying to yourself about what could be with Harry? I definitely had reservations the whole way through,

but not because of his actions. I really thought we had a good chance at making things work just because we had, I mean, every night like we were talking about our future and like what life would be like outside of the show. It's not like it was like this big unknown thing like, you know, I live on the complete opposite side of the country and like we talked about the logistics of that and like, it wouldn't be easy, but we both, we wanted to try and make it work. It wasn't like a, where a lot of the couples were like, we didn't really talk about how are we going to make it work outside of the

show. Like, he and I were talking about it very early on. It was just kind of like, it seems silly, but it almost felt like a when you know, you know kind of thing. Well, also, I mean, like you said, I mean, as you get older, you'll have a daughter, you seem like a very intentional person. People talk about dating intentionally all the time. So it's not crazy to have strong feelings for someone,

especially someone who doesn't live in the same area. And if you're gonna have strong feelings, it makes sense to talk about serious things. It doesn't mean you're gonna get married as you seem to get out of the bubble, but I don't think it's as crazy as people wanna make it sound. Yeah, but I think looking back,

the bond and the really strong connection I felt like we had was not from our experience on the show. It was not from like our experience on the show. It was not like for me being swept off my feet, you know. I mean, because him doing sweet things for me and being attentive, like that's the bare minimum. Like that's crazy to just be impressed by that, which some of us are and that's fine. But truly to me watching it back and reflecting it, it was a trauma bond, a hundred percent. I mean, we touched on so, so many things. I learned so much about him

that I don't think the rest of the world knows that really, I mean, that alone made me see him in a different light than anybody else did. You know, I was like, I, a lot of what he went through as a child resonated with things that I had been through. And I'm like, we could talk so openly about those things. And if you can't tell, like I do my best, but those aren't really easy topics for me to like revisit,

but he and I just did it so easily and openly. And it makes you feel so safe too, to open up to someone who understands, you know, when you have to kind of break down and explain and dissect like how it affected you and who you are today. It's like, you feel just kind of icky about the whole situation. But to talk to someone who's like, no, I get it.

I went through the same thing or I went through something similar. It gives you the sense of safety and security that like. How could they do this to me if they know how I felt from this experience? And if they went through something similar, why would they wanna do that to someone else? Yeah, I felt from this experience. And if they went through something similar, why would they want to do that to someone else? Yeah, I didn't see that coming.

I was like, not me, I'm safe. I, you know. Did he make any promises to you in the bubble that ended up not being true? Yeah, that's not a secret. I mean, you saw him, you saw he and I make the commitment to each other that we were gonna really give it a fair chance. But in that same conversation that I was like, you saw him, you saw he and I make the commitment to each other that we were gonna really give it

a fair chance. But in that same conversation that I was like, if we're doing this, we're really doing it. And he was like, I'm gonna give this my all, I'm not gonna hurt you. Which, you know, I don't know. See, I jump to wanna not make excuses, but I'm like, I don't know.

You want to see the good in people. I do. Is that more about protecting yourself or protecting him, do you think? That I'm still trying to sift through. I think my pride almost doesn't want to let me think that it could be as bad as some people seeing it. Well, we were really hard on him, recapping the show.

I think I referred to him as an emotional terrorist. Oh, I was hard on him. That's the thing, that's a commitment he and I made to each other before the show came out, was if we had any issues with each other or, cause again, when we dated, neither one of the shows that I was on had been out. So he had told me, you know, you're gonna see things,

you're gonna see me, and you're gonna see your friends and people in their interviews and saying things that you didn't see in real time, and it's gonna make you feel a lot of things. He's like, but you and I should remain respectful, and if you have an issue with anything that you see, like reach out, like tell me directly. When did he say this to you?

After the show, like, after we were done with Perfect Match. After your relationship was over? Yeah. Did that feel like, who is he protecting there? Cause that sounds like, hey man, we're gonna be cool, we're not gonna talk shit about each other. Well, true, maybe so. But for me, I've made it very clear,

like you will never, you will never have a social media war with me like you've had with anyone else. I won't do it. I won't entertain it. I will get on a flight and show up to your door before you catch me responding to comments, subbing you, trying to respond to any nonsense that you're spewing or anyone else. We're having a conversation. I don't want that kind of attention. If that's what clout means, I don't want any of it.

We will have a direct conversation. I meant that very seriously. I mean, there were some things that he put out after the show that I didn't approve of, I wasn't happy with. But for the most part, he's had pretty nice things to say about me, as he should. Yeah, like why wouldn't he? Right. What were some of those things that he put out there that you weren't happy with?

Like him posting photos of us when we were together and like. Trying to get, I mean, I have quite honestly, a lot of fans and friends and people I talk to thought you guys were together still. The impression I got is there's something more there and he's trying to give, it seems like Harry's playbook throughout watching. I had him on the show,

seemed like a very charming guy in person. He is extremely charming, yeah. Don't know him very well. It's the thing when we talk about this, when we cover these shows, right? And I know what it's like to be criticized, I know what it's like to get heat, and I know what it's like to feel like

people are talking about me in ways they don't really know me. And it can be tough, like when we're talking about this show, and we always try to say, hey listen, we don't know these people, we acknowledge there's an edit, sometimes we reserve the right to be wrong about people. We try to watch these shows as like a launching pad

to have conversations about real life interactions. So when we see certain types of behavior, we're more kind of criticizing the behavior not so much the people per se, knowing that like maybe we're right about them, maybe we're wrong. Like I said, I referred to Harry as an emotional terrorist. And I said that because people make mistakes all the time.

I think there's fuckboys and I think sometimes, even the guys sometimes can be unfairly judged for behaviors, I think it can be a two-way street. But I said that about him because it was one of those things as we watched on Perfect Match, right? There seemed to be this pattern that anytime you questioned him, all of a sudden overnight, he became the victim.

It was like you're apologizing to him for simply trying to have a conversation with him. All of a sudden, overnight, he became the victim. It was like you're apologizing to him for simply trying to have a conversation with him. It gave gaslighting, so to speak. That pissed me off. Why, yeah, I am. The stomach aches. The tears in bed. Yeah, the tears in bed, those things.

And like we were talking about before, hope, I've been screwed over in relationships, we've all been screwed over in relationship. I always preach to my audience or to friends, you gotta keep opening yourself up. You can't be jaded. Don't let past relationships affect future ones. You gotta stay open. No matter how many times it happens to you, you gotta go there, so to speak. And the scary thing about the person he represented, again, because I don't know him as a person, but the person he represented on TV

seemed like the scariest type of person. The person who, you know, again, says all the right things, seems to be willing to say the right things, whether it's true or whether it's coming, who knows? But if you are someone who's been hurt and you wanna open yourself up and you want to trust again, it can be very scary because you'll never know if you're safe with someone like that, a person who can and is willing to say anything they need to, to either change the power dynamic or getting your good graces and make you very confused about your feelings, question yourself

and your craziness or lack thereof, and that's scary because we wanna believe in the best in people and we want to sit there and say, well, like you said, you don't wanna date someone who hasn't been through it, who hasn't made mistakes, who hasn't had to say, you know what, I have had to hold myself accountable. I've had to apologize to people in the past. I know what that's like.

You wanna find those people. So I guess my question to people in the past. I know what that's like. You wanna find those people. So I guess my question to you is, the Harry you've gotten to know, the good and the bad, was I being unfair, calling him an emotional terrorist? Do you think people are putting themselves in a vulnerable position to pursue him, to date him?

I think at this point, after everything I've experienced with him, like before, during, and after the show, I do not feel like I know him at all. I don't know him enough. I've experienced so many different versions of him that I don't know which one is real. I can't say, and I don't know if it's for my own sanity, that I wanna feel like maybe some of what I experienced with him was real or if it really was or if it wasn't. I don't know.

I don't feel like I wholeheartedly know who he is as a person or what his character is at this point in time at all. Because like, I mean, he's talked about it on his podcast. He and I did have conversations after the show, after we broke up after the show. And same thing, it was like, you know, he was never farther than a call away

and always seemed like he was there when I needed him or had a question. But then after the show, and I reached out to him and after the final episode, and he was continuing to post things after I had told him I'd appreciate it if you didn't, I was just like, this is actually becoming hurtful and harmful to me.

I'm getting absolutely annihilated on the internet. And I know you see it. It is not helpful that you are provoking it and I would appreciate it if you took this down." And his response was, you know, I hate that you're experiencing that. Unfortunately, I know how that feels to be getting beat up on the internet and I just want you to know that I'm here if you ever need anything. And I said, oh, that's great, but did you see what I just said?

I'm asking you because you've told, you've kept the door open for me, and you've said if I need anything to never hesitate to ask you, I'm pleading to you. Please let up. Like, because I hadn't said anything about any of the things that he had posted, like the photos, the TikToks, whatever.

It was the very last one he posted. I was like, that is actually, I'm hurt and I'm humiliated because I just had to see what actually really happened, which I didn't know. That's the other thing people don't realize. They didn't show us that footage at the finale. I watched it in real time with everybody else. So he never admitted to you the truth?

No. He didn't. And for the record, I did believe Melinda. I did. I thought, like I said on the show, I think there was her side. I think that there was his side and somewhere in the middle. And what do we know?

What did we find out? That was exactly what happened. She wasn't lying. And I never said she was lying. And people didn't pull that piece on the show where I said, listen, I'm not saying that you're lying. I'm just saying, I think there's your side, his side, and there's the truth.

And he and I, you know, we dated after the show, and he had nothing but time, space, and opportunity to say, hey, this is actually what really happened. I'm telling you, you don't have to see it when everyone else does. And he didn't give that to me. So anyway, and all of that to say, I wanna think that he loved me as selflessly

and beautifully as I felt like he did, but his actions to this day do say otherwise. Cause even in our friendship that I thought we had, I think that it shouldn't have been a big deal for him to take that one post down. I didn't say anything about the rest of them. I said, this one hurts me and I want you to take it down. And it is still up.

Do you feel like his want for, you know, the reaction of the world, his audience, you know, his followers, do you think that is more important to him than how you felt? It has to be, even though the reaction that he got from it was not warm and welcoming. People felt the same way I did, which was, why are you rubbing her nose in it?

This is huma, you should both be embarrassed. I think that he's brilliant, I do. I would always tell him, like, you know, everything you touch turns to gold. Like, he's one of the hardest working people I've ever met. He's wildly intelligent, I think, beyond what people realize. But I was like, I don't follow the logic of like any publicity is good publicity, as long

as people are talking about you because he's a human, it affects him. Like I'm not exposing him in any way, but I've seen it affect him before before I was in any of this when I would see him read things and feel things that he saw on the internet, it hurts him. So I'm watching these comments roll in on the video I asked or the post asked him to take down and I'm like these comments roll in on the video I asked or the post I asked him to take down. And I'm like, I know him. I know that this does not feel good,

but I wonder if the not feel good feeling he's just become, you know, desensitized to. Maybe that does mean more to him than maybe giving me some comfort and just taking it down. I don't know. So- I mean, if he's so brilliant

He he's got to have an awareness About how his actions affect people if he cares. We've got to think I mean he's made a name for this space in a way that's not really like Good Like what kind of legacy is this? I? Think we might not agree with it. It's not something I would ever do. And people would not agree with a lot of things that I do. So I'm not being a hypocrite, but no matter which way you look at it, he's been very successful in the space. Maybe not in the most, you know, respectable way, but I mean, yeah, stuff. So when the season ended, and I think it's very important that you clarify

that you didn't get to see that video. Because they almost aired it as if he was acknowledging his mistake and then they showed the footage and it's like, oh, Harry's coming clean and they're showing it to everyone. And like, I guess it almost sounded like maybe he's apologizing, but that's clearly not the case. I think a lot of your fans and supporters

Struggled watching that clip of you two in the car same. It was right there with the best of them And then obviously, you know, it's just like You know, it's like we believed in you type of thing You know being a single mother and you talking so much about you know How much that matters to you and I think a lot of your fans did, Quinansi struggled to see that, specifically you guys getting back together after everything that happened in the bubble.

And because you're someone who talks about dating intentionally and not being kind of flippant with your relationships and being purposeful, what was the reason you decided to get back together with him? And can we talk about how that relationship played out? There's so much to this. When you see me like break up with him on the show and say, I don't want to match with him, I wholeheartedly meant that I did not think there was going to be any going back from there. I didn't think we were gonna get back together. I thought, like, at that point in time, I didn't know exactly what happened.

I just knew that, you know, my person, the man that I'm meant to be with, you know, the man that I want to lead my life, isn't gonna put me in a position where I have to question something like that. Because that in itself is already wrong. And then we were at the finale, and then he and I, there was like a lull between the finale and then we all had to do like promo stuff for the show afterwards.

So we were all still in Mexico. So he and I talked and continued to spend time together then. And it was like the first experience that we had without the cameras. And I hate it, but it was wonderful. Like... What was sad between the two of you that made you kind of dismiss everything that happened?

I never dismissed it. And that's the other thing is like, I tore him a new ass like more times than people on the show, but they didn't show it either. People thought I was just really gentle parenting him. I would really lay into him. Not that that, you know that ever made a difference, but it was never just like, oh, like a slap on the wrist.

Like they were ongoing conversations about it. But we talked about it a lot and he would be like, I know that I made the biggest mistake of my life. And the thing with him that was different than other relationships I had been in is he would admit his wrongs and say everything that I needed to hear. So I didn't have to say it. So when he's like, I know this was the biggest mistake of my life.

I know I should have represented you better. I know I should have been a better man. I did this, this and this, and this is what I'm going to do differently in this time. I'm never going to put you in this position. You shouldn't be here in the first place. I know you're humiliated and it's because of me. I'm going to redeem myself. I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. These are the steps that I'm going to take to get you to trust me again. I made this mess and I'm going to clean it up. He came full court press.

It's not like you came out of the bubble, you guys hung out and he was just like, let's just chill and get to know each other slowly. He came correct. All the way correct. And that is one thing. That was one thing. Our communication was really good.

I didn't ever have to tell him or ask him like, okay, so what do you think you did wrong? He knew. He knew what he did wrong. And he was like, these are the steps that I'm going to take to be better for me and for you. And I'm just like, okay, yeah, I'm still mad, but I mean, I have learned, why am I gonna continue to bash you

or like beat a dead horse if you know what you did wrong and you're telling me what you're gonna do better? Like I'm upset, but I'm not gonna sit here and still like lay into you. You know, that's what you do when someone doesn't, seemingly doesn't know what they did wrong. When did you guys first start talking after the show? Like when did we get back,

like the clip that you saw on the show where we were together? Well, I mean, just like when did you first speak after you guys took off the mics and the cameras went away and this conversation of him coming correct, when did that start? I think two days after. I mean, he had like reached out

to me on Instagram and texted me. And we were both back at the hotel at that point off when we left the show and I wasn't speaking to him. And then he actually got my room information from someone at the hotel, which I think is very illegal. Illegal, very much so. But- Which must've felt like a grand gesture in the moment. It I think is very illegal. Illegal, very much so. But- Which must've felt like a grand gesture in the moment.

It did, it really did. He like, I don't know if he paid them or did what, but I left, I brought some books with me on the show and I left one of them in the house and he had one of them in his suitcase. So he like found out which room I was in and like brought my book and left it outside my door with this really sweet note in it

and sent me a really long heartfelt text with everything I could have wanted in an apology note. And at that point, I was still like very firm in where I was. But then I was like, okay, maybe we can have a conversation in person. And then it was all kind of, we all know how that goes. If it, and that's the other thing. Okay, I get that it's him, but like how many times have you been like, okay, I'm done with this person, unfortunately, there's not like a light switch on your heart

is like corny as that sounds. And it's like, okay, you read their apology note and then it's like, okay, well, I want closure so we can have this conversation in person. And then you have the conversation in person and the feelings are still there. And then you're like, okay, well, I want closure so we can have this conversation in person and then you have the conversation in person and the feelings are still there. And then you're like, okay, well, maybe it didn't work because of X, Y, and Z and okay, we were on this too. Like,

also, you didn't know the truth still. Like you, you saw the footage a month ago, two months ago, like, right. I mean, I had my doubts again, because that was a bad position to be in. But I think knowing the truth and seeing the truth is a lot different than what he told you, what you thought happened. That's changed everything. Because he and I, we had decided whatever, we won't continue to be friends forever,

but not enemies. But after seeing the footage and what actually happened, that changed everything. Like we will probably never speak again. But when you, when he wrote you this letter, he's visiting your hotel room, I got to assume again everything you've been through and everything you just shared with us that your decision to get back into a relationship, uh, wasn't an easy decision and something you didn't take lightly. And I'm assuming you didn't get in that relationship with the expectation between the two of you that would be some sort of

fling or situationship or let's take things slow. He doesn't strike me as someone who takes things slow with people. No, but that was the plan. So when we came back to the States and I went back home and he went back home, we talked for a couple weeks and there were some doubts there. Once you get re-acclimated back into regular society, then you're like, okay, now I know what's real about my bearings. But he was like, come out and visit me

and let's actually go on a date in real life and see how it is. And that was my first time I had ever come to LA. So at this point, you're not technically back together? No, no. And that's the thing is like, I think you can see in that clip that they showed at the end where he's like, yeah, we're getting married.

And I'm like, no, we're just trying to figure things out right now. But I came out here, that was my first time visiting LA and it was perfect. Like it was like one of the best trips of my life ever. Well, not now because you know I'm on the other side of it. But I felt hopeful like it was great and he was you know that attentive, really wonderful man that I thought I knew. And did you become boyfriend and girlfriend? Did you say, let's do this thing?

Like, what was the, like, how did you guys actually get into a relationship? I mean, basically we were just like, okay, we see that this works. And what was the expectation between the two of you? You know what I'm saying? Like, hey, when Nellie first started dating, it was kind of like, we had, you know,

we had talked around for nine months and we weren't you know I was I had my insecurities yada yada but once we started dating it was like all right we're gonna go for it. She moved out you know and she came to LA and it was like well if we're gonna do this she lived across country and we know so we had I mean we talked about logistics of everything and how we would make that work obviously I wasn't gonna just like uproot my life and my daughter's life just to like come and, you know, run off into the sunset with him.

But like we had conversations about how we were gonna make that work and how, I mean, we just picked up the conversation that we had on the show. There wasn't. Yeah, I guess what I'm getting at is like, you went into that relationship that second time around Oh, yes, and with with great expectations of what it could be. Mm-hmm And then we saw and you know the end which seems silly and I hate I mean it doesn't help my case that no one Sees the seriousness of our relationship. I think we all can say like we know this show is edited

We know we see it's just like Instagram People are showing the highlights of their lives. You're not seeing every second, you're not seeing the bad stuff, you're not seeing all the good stuff. Yeah. And again, you're clearly someone who's, we're talking here, we've been talking for a bit. It's obvious, at least for me,

that you're trying to really take accountability and you're trying not to point fingers. Yeah. You mentioned that in your post. Yes. Because the fact of the matter is, no matter which way you look at it, it is a, you know, fool me once, shame on you.

Shame on him for doing that. Fool me twice, because I went back, completely shame on me. Like, that was bad for him to keep selling me on something that may have not been real. But at the end of the day, like you saw me say on the show, like my intuition is telling me that this is not good for me, so I'm walking away. Ideally, that's what we all want to do is be able to say I'm walking away and not go back. The

reality of it is, I think for most people, that's not how it goes. And, you know, everyone has a threshold that they eventually reach. Unfortunately, mine just wasn't then. I don't know why. I had to give it a shot outside of the show to see if, okay, maybe the contributing factors of being on TV and being around all these other people and the cameras and all this, maybe that contributed to why we didn't work out.

It makes a lot of sense, in the sense that, like, here you are, you went into this experience very green, not knowing anything about reality TV I think most people don't appreciate the fact that after you get out of perfect match She's sure you've filmed two shows. None of those shows had aired at the moment You're you're just you're not a celebrity Here you are dating a celebrity a very big celebrity someone who has a lot of experience It's not that hard to believe that after you got out of this bubble. You showed up your hotel room, said this, said that. Also, by the way, like, listen, like that was a TV show.

Like, it's not like whatever. It's not real. Yada, yada. Like, let's now that we're out of this bubble, let's really go for it. Let's really see the field. It does. You know, and that's very believable. Yeah, it was. And again, like, I guess guess my point and why I refer to him as the emotional terrorist, it's like, there are certain things when you do the work and you learn the tools to protect yourself when you're triggered from the red flags. We were talking to Camilla about this when she was on. It's just like, there are certain people

you can't protect yourself from. Again, the only way to protect yourself from certain people is to simply trust nobody. Yeah, and just be in a bubble and don't go outside. And never take a risk, and never take a chance on someone, and never feel that excitement of meeting someone and the potential of what it could be, and to just be a cynical person the rest of your life. And so, like, that's just not fair or realistic,

and if fans want to criticize you for that, whatever. But you went for it. And I guess my question to you is like, kind of what changed so fast? Because according to what we saw, like you guys dated for what, a week, a month, or, you know, I guess it doesn't track the gist we're getting to know. I think we also saw the paparazzi photos

of y'all in the ocean. So, yeah, that was... Yeah, where was that? That was still in Mexico. paparazzi photos of y'all in the ocean. So. Yeah, that was. Yeah, where was that? That was still in Mexico. That was when filming and all the promos were done. Like a group of people went to like the beach and we had a beach date.

And he and I actually were not, we didn't go to the beach together that day. We weren't talking then. And then we went out on the beach separately and then he saw me and came over to where I was. And he was like, let's go get in the water together. And I'm like... I'm proud that you did that. I didn't want to.

No, and I had just gotten a blowout too. You can see me in one of the photos trying to hold my hair up out of the water. I was not having, like, I'm just not meant to be outside. And that's what people should meant to be outside and that's what people should take of like that's a better conversation like I shouldn't have been out there in the first place that's where I went wrong. But yeah we weren't even out there together that day we met up on the beach and were together for maybe a few minutes and which is crazy because I didn't see anybody

taking photos out there. It was seemingly a private beach. So how did the paparazzi get out there? Someone got a phone call. You think you did it? I don't know. Who else? What is he gonna tell you Jess? There was no one, there was nobody else out there. No one knew who I was.

So you're, if gunned your head, who do you think did it? Someone who really needed attention. Am I here to assume that I don't know means yes in this conversation? I don't know, but it was a good look for them. It was a good look, good for them getting the first paparazzi photo ever of me, whoever was behind that. How did your relationship the second time around and even faster than the second time around

and even faster than the first time around? Because it doesn't make sense that someone like you would enter in this relationship and have it, because they framed it as like, it was just another situationship, it was more or less meaningless, whatever you guys got back together, had a fling, no big deal, you parted ways.

Was that what happened? Or... Because it doesn't make sense that you would enter into relationship and give this guy a second chance, have him have to say all these intense and serious things, make more promises. I'm sure you had conversations about Autumn and how he spoke about her and yada yada yada. Yeah. So why did it end so fast again? My patience was already running very thin and I told him, I was like, all right, I'm listening to these things that you're committing to me

at the first sign of your nonsense, like I'm out. And so, and also we were back out in the real world. Like, when we were on the show, I was still talking to Autumn and seeing her on FaceTime every day. But I didn't, I wasn't taking her to school. And like, I mean, she was on summer break. I didn't have my own life going on, reminding me,

I don't have time to coach someone on how to be a good partner to me. And then also realize, wait, that's what I'm doing. Even though he's saying he knows what he needs to do as a good partner to me. And then also realize, wait, that's what I'm doing. Even though he's saying he knows what he needs to do as a good partner to me. He's kind of falling, well, falling very short. What was he doing? Pfft.

I think trying to have his cake and eat it too. I think he was trying to further his career and trying to, honestly, I don't know what he was trying to keep me around for. I was of no use to him because again, I was seemingly nobody, but he really was still trying to be with me like and still do his own thing.

What is him trying to be with you and doing his whole thing? What do you mean by that? Well, he did another show after the fact, and that's what he does for work. That was great. I was happy for him, always supportive, but it seemed like his experience there,

not that it took precedence because sometimes, well, work never comes first, but you know, like, there were some things. Things are important. Yeah, work is important, but I think it got to a place where it was becoming unhealthy for me. And there was- It was another dating show.

It was in another dating show. He did another show. And it just became unhealthy for me. Like there were things that I didn't find acceptable. another show and it just became unhealthy for me. There were things that I didn't find acceptable. There were things that I no longer could support. So I just. Do you feel like he was being honest with you

or dishonest with you during that time? Who are you trying to protect? I think, I'm not trying to protect anyone. I think that I've just moved on from it. And the thing about it is, I think people want me to completely read him and his actions to complete Filth. Which typically I would. But if you look at him and the choices that he's made

and the things that he's done, they speak for themselves. There's not really much I have to say about it. Like, there's... If people care enough to know, it's very evident why we didn't work out outside of the show. What do you mean by that? I mean, if you look at the timeline of events and see that, you know, he was in a relationship, you can just look at what's public knowledge

and decide for yourself if maybe that was appropriate for someone in a relationship or not. I mean, it looked like he was in a relationship with someone on the show that he was on to the public. Right. And I'll never know. I don't know if that's true or not. But just kind of selling the show, selling people on it.

Cryptic. Well, I know he was on Dancing with the Stars. That's what I'm assuming. I don't know any other show he was on. Why are you so afraid to mention that? It was a show. It aired. It did.

No, it's funny. The world saw, like, I mean, I feel like a lot of people were invested in him on that show and his relationship. They were, which, you know, they were. And I can- I was on that show too. Wait, he came in like six. Shut up, seriously? Yeah, it was can- I was on that show too. Wait, you came in like six.

Shut up, seriously? Yeah, it was right after I was the bachelor. So I was in a relationship trying to make it work, you know, and that was a very- Did it interfere? No, not at all. My partner was PETA, who had just had a child. And so there was, and I was very focused

on trying to make that work. Unfortunately it didn't. Well, fortunately it didn't. Well, fortunately it didn't. No, fortunately. Just not in my heart. Very fortunately. You should be glad it didn't, yeah. I'm just trying to be nice.

But you know what I'm saying? So yes, it was, actually it was a great experience. But I'm fully aware of how the show, when single presenting people, and keep in mind when this happened, to the world he was single. Like no one knew you existed. Which was fine, that was mutually an understanding thing.

And even if we could have been public, I didn't wanna be because we had some things that we needed to figure out behind the scenes. Which also is totally understandable. I mean, like, Nick, I was a nobody when I met Nick, and, you know, I didn't want us to be public for a long time. Yeah. But he didn't act single.

You know, he did interviews, and he said he was, you know, seeing someone, and he was in a relationship. No one knew who, we never said my name, but people knew he was not single. Right, so there's things like that that I feel like could have been done to help our situation out, that he had committed to me, he was gonna do,

and then just never did. And I can- Well, here's a question. For someone who's been on the show, that he had committed to me he was gonna do and then just never did. And I can- Well, here's the question. For someone who's been on the show, there's always like dancing with the stars is an intimate. You're close, you're connected. When you're single, like the show wants single people

to lean in even if it's fabricated to a potential relationship. You know, that maybe is the work part. And so when I went on the show, there's a lot of conversations that her and I had about expectations and how we handle ourselves or how I, and it was very important to me to not have that bring in any type of toxicity

into our relationship that was already hard enough, and things like that. What conversations, because you're together at this point when he first got casted, what conversations, if any, did you guys have about expectations of how he would handle himself and present himself to the public? I mean, we had a lot of open conversations about it,

about him just keeping it respectful, and like the intimate piece of like, there needing to be chemistry between you and your partner. Like, I was so fine with that. I'm such a huge fan of that show. Like, I could not have been like, more excited. And also, you want him to do good. And to do good, you need to like...

Yeah. ...be a good dancer and have chemistry. I was so excited. Like, I was very supportive. And like, not the whole, the whole closeness piece didn't bother me at all. It was when, and you know, that's a thing because I'm a huge fan of the show. I've seen people kind of take, especially when partners have chemistry like that,

people would just take it and run with it. Like, oh, there must be something going on. Because I've seen the show, I know that there's things that you can do that will kind of shut down rumors and run with it like, oh, there must be something going on. Because I've seen the show, I know that there's things that you can do that will kind of shut down rumors or make them not take off the way that they sometimes do. And- Like telling the world you're in a relationship,

even though you don't wanna tell people who, you know, like I do it now. Yeah, which wasn't even a thing. You know, I'm not, I'm not ready to talk about it. Yeah, which wasn't even a thing that I wanted him to do. But when like the rumors and everything started, he's like, I don't want people talking about this either. I'm gonna shut it down.

He could have. I get, for viewership and everything like that, it worked out really well for them. But at the same time, if you wanna do that, that's just, it's not respectful to me. Even if no one but you and I knows that we're together, like that's just, I can't, I couldn't. Did you ever have a chance to meet his partner?

No. Was that ever talked about? Mm-hmm. Cause I mean, that was the first thing I did. Often, yeah. It was like, hey, Vanessa, PETA, be best friends. Right. You know?

That was literally the first thing that happened. Yeah, that would have alleviated. That would have gone a long way for you. Right, but I mean, I don't live down the street. I live across the country, so it's not like I can just pop into practice. But were you ever planning on meeting? Mm-hmm.

What happened? I don't know. It just didn't work out. Did you ever want to go watch him live? Did you, was that ever an option? We had planned for me to go and watch him a couple times and it just, for reasons I don't know, just didn't work out.

What do you mean? I don't know. When I was on, I was like, hey, can I get a couple of tickets? And they're like, yeah, sure. I know, but you have to think, I don't know how the logistics work. It's pretty easy.

You actually just send a text and they give you tickets. Yeah. Because you're on the show. I mean, and it was things like that where things just didn't really add up or I'm just like, you know, there was also the portion of it like were contractually, like we couldn't be out and seen together.

So I'm like, we had planned for me to come and even if I couldn't go to a show, like maybe a practice or something, and like every time I was here visiting, it just didn't work out. One of those, there was always a reason why. Kind of, yeah. Kind of when you're eating catfish or something.

Yeah, but- It's like, oh no, sorry, my screen's broken. To be very clear though, like that is not on his partner at all. Like, I don't know if she- I don't think anyone's- Yeah, I don't think anyone's suggesting that. Yeah, I don't know if she- I don't think anyone's suggesting that. He's the one who was in the relationship with you. Right, like I don't know what she knew.

I mean, who knows what was being said? That's what I'm saying. She may have not even known that he was in a relationship or, I mean, she was doing her job. And, you know, this was, I mean, it was an incredible season for both of them. It was an amazing first season for both of them. It was an amazing first season for her.

There were just some very obvious things. And that's what I'm saying is like, do you even know if she ever had an idea that you guys were in a relationship when? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't know. Like when we broke up then it was just very, very abrupt. I was there. I was, well, I was here visiting and I was just like, I can't do this anymore.

Like I'm not doing this. And we broke up the next day and didn't talk. How many weeks was he on the show before you guys broke up? Three. So he was dancing, he was practicing with her for about four or five weeks before he broke up. So how many days are you actually dating for?

I don't know, maybe a month or two. Maybe not that long. A little over a month. Yeah, a little over a month. It wasn't long, because we got back from Perfect Match. She started that right away. And you eventually ended it? Yeah.

What was the last straw? It was him making commitments to me that he was gonna kind of lighten the load with that, because I was understanding of our relationship having to be a secret for a while, but I'm like, it's kind of excruciating watching the world. Think you're in love with someone else.

I'm like, this is crazy. I remember a video of them two like holding hands at some concert or something. They looked very, was that, were you guys still together when that happened? We broke up that morning. Oh. Yeah. Wait, you broke up that morning. Oh. Yeah. Wait, you broke up that morning and that night

he's holding hands with her in public at an event? Yeah. How'd that make you feel? Oh, I was so mad. I was so, so, I mean, I was mad, I was sad, but I was just like, whatever. But prior to that, they were like, TikToking and leaning in.

Yeah, I mean, in the TikToks, I'm like, okay, that bothered me because again, like I had just made a TikTok. Like I didn't even have one. So I was like. But it's kind of crazy to think that when he got casted, he had a girlfriend and it was you. And it was like month long.

And it was me, I know. And the whole world had no idea that you even existed. I know, and I'm watching. They were all falling in love with them. I was kind of falling in love with them. I was like, I like him. I was like, wait, I like him better with her. I was like, wait, I think that that's a better fit for him.

They look so in love. No, seriously, I'm like, I don't think he looks at me like that. No, yes. No, I'm just kidding, he did. But yeah, I was sold on it. I loved them together. They sold it for sure.

Whether it was just dance partners or any, I don't know. It is that piece, not my business at all. Like that part's not my story to tell. I don't even know what the story is to tell. I just know. Did she know you existed? I don't know. I hope so.

I mean, I don't know. She doesn't watch Perfect Match. I wouldn't, you know. I hope no one watches Perfect Match. Don't, if you're listening to this and you haven't watched it yet, pull. Pull up his dog. Did Love Is Blind air before?

No. Dancing with the Stars, no. No, like I was just. No, she was a nobody. A nobody is like really harsh. Yeah, I don't mean like, I mean like, she wasn't a public figure. Like I was out here. She was literally a nobody.

Raising a human. But no one was like. All by myself, like I was doing good things. She was doing good. She was doing good. But like, all by myself. Like, I was doing things, trust me. But like, knowing the internet, I was like, you know, like, Harry and like this 30th girl on the internet named Jess, and we really want to, you know what I'm saying? Like, they were not aware of your existence.

No, like, it was the crazy, all of it was the crazy experience because that season of that show was absolutely insane. Everyone was talking about it everywhere. I'm a huge fan of that show was absolutely insane. Everyone was talking about it everywhere. I'm a huge fan of the show. I've watched every single season. Not mine. Maybe I did and there were just other people.

I don't know. He didn't do very good. Maybe that's why. Maybe that's why. I don't know. But I'm just like hearing everyone talk about it and I'm like, yeah, that guy's really beautiful, isn't he? No, I like him. He's so great.

I love them together. Yeah, they're so cute. Oh my God, Barbie and Ken. Stop. Well, I mean, what was that like though? I mean, how did that make you feel, Ty? I mean, you're putting on a good face now and we know you've done a lot of work to heal,

but again, we're thinking about what you went through on the show and then again, this is a person who, you did all this work. You talked about for two, three years, you sat your ass on the sideline and was like, I'm not gonna date, I'm gonna really undo the work. And then you're like, finally, I feel safe enough to go out there, which I'm, I think for a lot of people, especially women, or not even all people,

people who have been through it, you know, you go back out there, it can be scary. And so, yeah, you took some risks, you went on some shows, you met this guy, made you hope and dream, made you, I found him, he's 6'5", he's gorgeous, he's beautiful, he's got an Australian accent. And like, It wasn't even that though, believe it or not. I'm fucking around. I know. But that must be like very vulnerable and scary

to like feel like you're ready to go out there and put yourself out there and then meet someone who says all the right things and really connects with you in ways you've always wanted to connect and really make you feel like I can trust this person and I've had a hard time trusting people in the past and he talks about your daughter and all these things. And then it ends.

And then you get back together, makes you trust him again, only for this to happen, only for him to go on this show. And it sounds like, and I really respect the fact that you want to not be messy. But that must have been really hard. And it really must have been hard and made, I can only imagine, make you question yourself,

which is a terrible thing to do. And a very shitty thing to experience, especially for someone like yourself who's done the work, who's had a lot of shitty experiences in the past. And when you have those shitty experiences, you know you're realistic. You're like, I know some shit's gonna happen in the future, but you really wanna like avoid those pitfalls

as much as you can. And when there's light at the end of the tunnel, you really wanna be like, well, maybe I finally found a lane of peace. And you got this person comes into your life and makes you, and I can only assume it makes you feel like you relapsed on all the work you've done. Yeah. I mean, that's a really good way to put it. Like you put, you hit the nail on the head.

Um, I mean, the second time it didn't work out, I mean, I was just, yeah, I was more disappointed in myself. I was just kind of like, I went out on a limb here. Yeah, I really, I wanted that success story so bad. And then just having to kind of sit with the breakup and like being hurt and, you know, watching him have the time of his life literally It was really painful and it seemed like it was really hurt me and it seemed like he couldn't have cared less That was my next question. Do you feel like he acknowledged your pain? No, I don't I

Don't know. I don't think that he thought I was hurt at all I but that's how they're saying because I didn't tell, I don't think that he thought I was hurt at all. But that's the other thing. How was that possible? Because I didn't tell him that I was. I was very, very matter of fact about it. Did he care? I mean, he went from promising you the world

and talking about it. No, it was like, that was the craziest thing. It was like, it never happened. But you lived long distance. He lived in LA. You live where in North Carolina? Charlotte, yeah. Did you guys talk in this brief but intense relationship

where there were conversations about closing the distance? Where were you guys gonna move? I don't know, because to be honest, I hate it here. I hate LA. Don't come for me. I think it is truly the land of opportunity and for work and I get so much done and being in this space and being out here,

like, I mean, has afforded me so many opportunities, but I hate it here. But then again, I've lived in Charlotte, North Carolina, my whole life, so I did want to move out of there. So we tossed around a lot of ideas. Cause like- But you did talk about it. Oh yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And did it feel like serious conversations? I mean, when you're planning logistics. I don't know. I mean, yeah. Talking about building your home. Well, first of all, we didn't know about it. And then it was sold to us as a relationship

that was like, didn't really matter. Like whatever, they got picked together. They filmed a video for Netflix. They broke up a week later. And that was my plan is to just go about it like that. Cause I feel like that's just more palatable because that's just what people, I mean, they're like, oh, it's him.

Like, what did you, you really thought? Yeah, like I really, I really did. You know, when you're talking about- That's okay though, Jess. It's okay that you believed that, you know? It's not always like beat yourself up over this. But listen, listen, we all make mistakes. Like I've made terrible mistakes.

I've had to apologize to people I love. I've had people I love have to apologize to me about some things that can be really hurtful. This world isn't like isn't a beautiful place if we can't make mistakes and learn from it. The problem is very few people actually do make the change, but we want to have that impact. Like we talked about when this episode first started,

your mom, and just like, you're not the only one who has that kind of fixing complex. It's a popular, you know, kind of thing that people wanna do, you know? And so you wanna believe in people, I guess is my point. And people can change. And so you're not an idiot for giving someone a second chance.

I mean, like, I think he came on perfect match. And his big kind of thing was I, I used to be this person. Used to be this person. I'm now longer this person. I've done the work. Yada, yada, yada. I'm ready to marry. And then my understanding recently, after the season ends, it's like,

it was just a rewind from like a year or two ago. And now it's, I'm a new person. That person was a bad person. I'm no longer that person. You know, like, do you believe that? Is that like, I mean, it just seems like a thing that's said. And- I want it for him.

I really do. I really do. I don't truly know what he wants. I don't know if that's just like, you know, like an opportunistic thing or like a more marketable thing. But I want to believe like he saw himself the same way all of us did. Like you've gotta wanna reflect

and make some changes after that. I saw myself on the show. It was mortified. I mean, other than my edit being absolute dooky, like it was so bad. It was horrible. I don't think that. I just actually showed a lot of strength on your season

and both seasons on Love is Blind and this perfect match. That sit down when you were like, I'm putting myself, my daughter first and like as much as I want to believe you, like I can't give you that. Like it was such an act of strength and I'm like, I think it's actually very encouraging and empowering for women to watch where it's like, he's this like Australian God that would make sense for you to crumble. And it's like for you to say absolutely not and then him pursue you actively

and for you to give him that second chance. That is also another form of strength. And unfortunately, yeah, it didn't end well, but I'm like the fact that you'll even give yourself that grace to be like, listen, I'll give you a second chance and put myself out there because I wanna believe in love. So I think that you gotta give yourself a lot more credit for that.

Yeah, I'm trying to. That I haven't like, I've forgiven him and I'm like, I really hope that you do better because I- I think we all want that for people we see on TV and whether we root for them or against them, you know, unless you're a real cynic and you want people to stay bad and stay shitty.

Yeah, no, God, I don't. I'm like the complete opposite. I see, I try, I do see the best in everything and even things I shouldn't. But I think I'm trying to forgive myself because I do know, I mean, and that's one of the best things, debatably the best thing that I've taken away

from both experiences is being able to touch so many people and resonate with so many people. And people, hundreds of so many people and people, hundreds of thousands of women and men message me and say, you're such an inspiration. And they send me quotes of things that I've said on both shows and been like, this changed my life. Like I got up today, I listened to this on my way to work.

Or I was in a bad relationship and I saw you on the show and this really gave me the push that I needed or the sign that I needed to get out of it. And then some people have been like, I, like you said, like I really loved that speech where you said you had to choose yourself, but it broke my heart when I saw you guys get back together and like I just, I expected more from you and I'm like, I did too. I expected more from me too. But the takeaway from that is, is like I said, everyone has a threshold and you will know,

like you know when you've reached it. And sometimes it might not be the most ideal or opportune time or when like your friends or your family, because how many times have you been talking to one of your girlfriends and they're, you know, pouring their heart out to you and you want to be like, girl, like, leave his ass. But you know, she will in her own time. And it might take a couple more times of her crying and you guys having to listen and talk her through it. But like,

the grace I'm telling other women and people to give themselves, I'm trying to give myself right now. Well, I'm glad that you are. When I. When bad things happen for me or anyone or my team or whatever, a question I like to ask myself, or like, let's not beat ourselves up, let's not re-litigate the past, but what could we learn from it? What can we do differently?

And I guess, again, back to like our commentary on the show and him and things like that is like, I mean, sure, you could have been like, I could have not believed him. Like from the get, I could have just assumed everything he was saying to me was a lie. And from where I sit and what I saw, and again, it's a TV show,

you can tell us what's real and what's not. Is that like, I don't know what you could have done differently. Do you feel that the same or? I wish that I wouldn't have done it on TV. Well that's a sure thing. I mean in real life. I'm talking about for the people who reached out and said, hey, you know, I really, it

was hard for me to watch you get back together, you know, and that implies that you should have known better or you should have done something differently. Yeah, I don't think I could have. I think even if I hadn't differently? Yeah, I don't think I could have. I think even if I hadn't been on TV, I don't think I would have because a lot of people are like, you know, I fell in love with you on Love is Blind. I really loved the woman that you were on there, but this, you know, you didn't do yourself any favors

on Perfect Match. And I'm like, what you guys don't realize is it actually, it is the same person. You just did not get to see me physically, like in a relationship on Love is Blind. It is in is the same person. You just did not get to see me physically like in a relationship on Love is Blind. It is in fact the same person. You guys just didn't know. I have terrible taste in men, no, I'm just kidding. But I'm the same person.

I just, and I mean what I say. I mean, don't play with me. I'm not the one or the two. I mean, like I'm giving you the answers to the test. This is what I want and need out of a relationship. And if you don't, if you can't meet me there, then there's a door. I do mean that, just maybe not on the first try. Like, I'm not a superhuman. I'm not because I'm eloquent and I know how to communicate does not mean that I don't have feelings and that I'm not vulnerable and that I don't still try and think the best and my partner who I love. Like, that's, in my mind, that's what you're supposed

to do in a relationship. If every time your partner disappointed you, you're like, oh, well, peace. You know, like, that's not real. Now, when the foundation is cracked and, you know, you've had multiple boundaries, like crossed and trampled on a million times, like, okay, yeah, then, like, some reevaluating

needs to be done, but, you know, you can, like, you can be both. I think it's more relatable than maybe you think. And I think a lot of people have been through this and given second chances and been screwed over. And I think the people, first, you have to stop reading comments. Trying. You have to stop.

I'm trying. And I think those people are, like you said, hurting themselves and hurt people, hurt people. Yeah. A lot of people like to throw buzzwords around online. I know. Or on a TV show, words like narcissist. Everyone's a therapist. Yeah.

I'm like, I'd like to see you guys do this. Okay? I'd like to see y'all in that environment and not act a whole donkey. Like, it was very hard. It's very difficult. People are like, oh my gosh, you were so composed. Like it was very hard. It's very difficult. People are like, oh my gosh, you were so composed.

That compliment I will gladly take because I was. Like because to not show your ass every time, like someone's doing something that you don't like and you're already hot and like dying from a heat stroke, it was hard. Yeah. I guess my question is, do you think he, well, a lot of people accused him of being a narcissist. And people accuse that, a lot of people accused him of being a narcissist

and people accuse that a lot of people accuse me of being a narcissist online so that words are thrown around you know but again we what we saw on a on the TV show was what seemed to be like screaming examples of some of these buzzwords that the internet often misuses, you know, gaslighting, love bombing, narcissism, things like that. Do you think that once again, it has an overreaction by the audience? Or I guess my question is if he's so smart, and you're smart, and you seem to be really

emotionally intelligent and done the work, how did this happen if he is sincere? Because maybe, I don't know, maybe he's not. But are you asking if I think he's a narcissist? I mean, neither of us are psychologists or therapists. I mean, I can't diagnose him. I think that he is exactly what he thinks he is. And I think that how you treat others

says more about you than it does of them. Yeah, I mean, he did wear a I Heart Gaslighting or Gaslighters t-shirt. treat others says more about you than it does of them. I mean, he did wear a I Heart Gaslighting or Gaslighters t-shirt. I think that he is whatever he thinks that he is about himself and I don't think the answer to that is what most people would think. I don't think if you think, if you love yourself,

if you think highly of yourself, I don't think that you treat others and the people you claim to love the way that he does. And having said that, I hope that he finds happiness and healing. Like, that's the thing is like, there's a lot of things I could say about him. There's a lot of experiences I had with him

that no one will ever know unless I were to come out and just say them, but I won't, because he's the one who has to live with them. Like his, it will- So it's like, it's worse than what you've shared. It will stay with him much longer than it will stay with me. For me to heal and move on from it, I don't have to call a spade a spade.

I know who I am and I can see, like if I'm being empathetic, I can see why being in this space and having the experiences and being on shows and like I said being in this space can change who you are and change what you believe in and how you think of yourself. For me that's never gonna happen and I think that that is because of the things that I went through before being on the show. But for some people, maybe him, maybe not, I think that it can change you in a way

where you don't know who you are. You don't know what you believe in. You don't know what means anything to you. And you just kinda, I guess, maybe go where the wind blows you. And I don't know, that's just not really the kind of person I wanna be. And I think if he were in my seat, I think that even though I don't think I gave him anything

negative to say about me, I think he would take the bait. But I don't have to do that. What do you mean take the bait? Like, are you afraid of him? No. No, like that he would say something if given the opportunity. Yeah.

If it meant making him look better, I think he would do it. But anyway, my point is, I don't have to call a spade a spade. He's the one who has to live with these things, and maybe it hasn't hit him yet. Maybe it won't for a long time, and maybe it won't even in this lifetime.

But I think when you treat the people that you claim to love the way that he does, I think that speaks for itself, and I don't really have to say much else about it. Okay. What's next for you, Jess? Finally! Over here, got a sweat stash cooking.

Move the fuck off from this shit! You're like, how do I navigate these questions? I don't know. I can navigate them, and I'm like, damn, y'all saw what I saw. Like, dang it. Well, I want to say thank you for being as vulnerable as you were willing to be. I know it's not easy.

I know this was a long time ago. It's hard to relive. It seems obvious to me and us that you want to be a good example to your fans. Whether people think that or not, that matters to you. And this is hard. This is not easy to talk about because it sounds like it was an experience as much as you have shared. It sounds like maybe there's some more difficult things that you're not willing and we want to respect that. And it's hard, it's really hard to talk about these things and it's really hard to be open. And then hope that people appreciate your vulnerability

as opposed to criticizing it or calling it something else. And it's like, how do I stand up for myself while not trying to throw dirt or things like that? And sometimes it's very difficult to navigate. Right, and I do, before I get into what's next, because I am excited things like that. And sometimes it's very difficult to navigate. Right, and I do, before I get into what's next, because I am excited to share that, I do wanna say, I'm sure a lot of people, if anyone was interested in anything I had to say,

would have been excited to hear me read someone to filth or give a really crass opinion about what I think about the show. But the fact of the matter is, and even the best person on any of the shows I've been with receives some hate or has experienced some kind of hardship or has struggled with mental health and being in this space. I don't think that me saying something bad

about someone else or their actions, when we all clearly already know that they're bad and they're already experiencing hate and they're already having a hard time. I could not sleep at night knowing that I piled on to that. So it's not me protecting anyone. It's not me like trying to be posh or like politically correct. That's just me coming from a place

where I don't want to speak someone's name into a room because I can have my opinion, but that may not have been someone's intention. I think it's kind of messed up speaking someone's name into a room where they're not there to defend themselves. So it's not me standing up for him or protecting him or anything like that. It's just, I'm still treating him

the way I want him to treat me. So if anyone comes for me for being weak, argue with your mother, like I'm done. And also she's not reading it, so go fuck yourself. Also, yeah, I'm not gonna see it anyway. Yeah. So, oh no, it's hard, cause I wanna like interact with the fans

that have nice things to say. So I'm like, oh my God, love you back. I support you too. Your baby's so beautiful. I look to your profile. Then it's like, oh my God, you're a weak ass bitch, and I'm like, all right, the rocks. You know, you, oh my God, I didn't mean to say that.

I'm not looking for the bad ones, it's like I'm trying to interact with the good ones, and the bad ones are just like splashed in there. So anyway. Well, on the solicited advice, the good comments are more dangerous than the bad. Oh, why? Because those people who say good things

is as well intentioned as they might be They don't know you they've never met you. Yeah, I've only seen you on TV true, and so when you read comments from people you don't know and they're nice your brain says That person knows what they're talking about. Oh, yeah, like they're validating Yeah, and then all of a sudden you can read a hundred nice comments and then all that your weak-ass bitch comes in and so your brain like okay well you obviously don't know me. Your subconscious brain is telling you no you you do not you have you have to listen to this person you listen to 300 other people saying you're a queen and so your brain

tells you this is a valid criticism. You're so right. Okay, I didn't think about it like that. But when people will share stories in their comments and talk to me about they just- When the dust settles. Their kids wear a new pair of shoes, and I'm like, oh my God, send me a picture, what size? When the dust settles and people aren't- I love talking to people about their kids.

I get it. But I hear what you're saying. Listen, there's a time and a place. There's a time and a place. And sometimes I'm more active online, and sometimes I'm like, time to get off, you know? Yeah. But like, it's hard to thread the needle. You know?

It is. Like, you can't ignore the bet. You know? I know. You're so right. Like deactivate, like completely deleting one of the apps and like just, I found a lot of these. If I had done that, I don't think I would be here.

I don't think I would have survived. I don't think I would have survived. I mean, I would be here, but like I would have still been hiding and not being able to get out of bed if I didn't force myself and like practice the self control to like step away from it. So you're right. I'm gonna try and do better

because you can't have one without the other. So yeah, I'm not gonna read them anyway. Yeah, too good. Next for you. So what's next for me? So, yeah, I'm not going to read them anyway. Yeah, good. Next Rio. So, what's next for me? Well, having said all that, having essentially this tremendous platform given to me, like I want to do something really impactful with it. Like as we talked a little bit about today, like I'm really passionate about foster care

and advocating and being a voice to kids that might not have one or might not know how to have one. And I don't know exactly what that looks like yet. I have like a lot of really good ideas and things I'm tossing around and I've had a lot of conversations with really big like reputable charities within the space that I'm looking to partner with and learn things from because ultimately, like that's my long term goals to have my own nonprofit that benefits foster children. And I have so many things I want to do, I've got to be intentional about it or else I'm just going to be doing random things everywhere. But that and I'm working on a couple big projects that are really near and dear to my heart

that I'm really excited about but I can't share too much about yet. Perfect match, season three. I can't, please, it's too soon. Get the fuck out. No, please, never. Would you be the Bachelorette? No.

I don't think that that's a thing, but I wouldn't date him. Maybe it's not a thing. I don't think the two networks cross. I don't know if they cross over, but I don't. We're just pretending. Yeah, no, I wouldn't. I don't know. I mean, Bachelor, I don't know if you've watched or you're familiar, they love trauma and they

love a trauma dump and they love a story and you got the foster care. No, I hear you. You know, single mother. I fit the mold. Like I know I do. I'm just saying. I don't know if anyone's listening. But do not call me for that. Do not.

I'm not picking up the phone. I can point you in the direction of, I mean, I will, like, if you just wanna talk about how your day was, but I'm not entertaining the conversation of dating on TV again, ever. In the best way. I'm not saying I wouldn't do TV again, but a dating show, like like that's not for me.

Dancing with the stars. You would crush. Do you think? I mean. You should do it. Dancing with the stars. I mean, if given the opportunity, I would leap. I would do a cartwheel into it. Literally leap.

Yeah. Sorry for asking, it just came popped up. No, I wouldn't date on TV again. If you ran into his partner, what would you say to her? I would give her a hug. Love. What do you mean? No, I'm not suggesting anything bad.

Or maybe you guys would bond. I don't know, maybe you'd be best friends. I think we would. The thing about it is, that man has some packable taste. He does. I'm flattered to be in the lineup. He loves beautiful, talented, funny women.

Hot, successful. I'm flattered to be in the lineup, truly. I hate women. Hot, successful. I'm flattered to be in the lineup, truly. I hate that for us, but I'm flattered. So yes, back to me. I have some really exciting, really impactful things that I'm really, really excited about because I don't ever think I'll consider myself as an influencer,

but like I said, I have this platform, so I wanna use it for more than just like posting cute photos. I mean, no shade to that, I love that too. That's what I follow my friends online for, but there's a lot of things that aren't talked about enough that need to be talked about that I wholeheartedly feel like and all of this

Was my purpose on being tv and having all these eyes and ears on me now I don't know what your future With More children looks like would you be opening open to fostering? I think about that often. Yes, I would. Um, it's a'd have to have with Autumn, and I think that's something I would wanna do maybe when I get married. But I do. I think it's hard not, it would be hard not to. So yeah, I probably would.

I've always wanted to as well. 10 out of 10 would recommend. Yeah, maybe I'd get a little jet. I hope so. I hope so. And that's the thing, if you're listening to this and you're interested in fostering, don't be afraid to maybe foster one of the older children because they might just surprise you.

The older children are the ones that have the hardest time being placed because no one wants, I don't want to say no one wants them, but they're not as, you know, not as a hot commodity as like a newborn or a toddler. So, but also, like I said, I have Crohn's disease. So, which is like more than half of my following on my platforms is like the Crohn's community. I'm not joking. I'm not joking. They go so hard. They're the ones, not that I'm reading them, but they're the ones fighting in the comments. Like they go hard for me. I feel like my sister has Crohn's disease.

I knew nothing about it. It's such a taboo thing. For our audience who doesn't know what it is, can you explain what Crohn's disease is? Okay, thank you for opening the floor because if not, people were gonna Google it and they were gonna be like, oh my God. So Crohn's disease is an autoimmune disease

that affects your small intestine. And I've guessed the most concise way I can describe it is you just basically have a part or multiple parts that are essentially just defective. So it can be treated if you catch it in the early stages where it can kind of function normally, but if it goes too far gone, then you sometimes have to get those sections removed.

And then if it gets too farther on, that's when people end up having to use the bag. It's a very inconvenient disease. It is. I mean, it's an autoimmune disease. If you know anything about like, I mean, anything autoimmune and affects your whole body, it's your body essentially like attacking itself.

So I have a huge community there that I wanna wrap my arms around and hopefully make a difference there and raise more awareness. Because I mean, just the few things that I've shared about it on social media, people who have Crohn's or people who don't know about Crohn's are like, oh my God, that was so helpful.

Or I'm so grateful that you shared that you do that. I'm doing that now and that's helped me. So that's a community of really enjoying. I do think it is. I know my sister didn't know what it was for a long time and thought it was stomach aches and then, oh, she's like gluten sensitive and she's this and she's lactose intolerant

and she's all of she's lactose intolerant and she's, all of these things that I feel like were more talked about than Crohn's disease, she thought it was. And for a long time it went undetected. And that's how it is for most people. It goes undetected or it goes misdiagnosed and that's how it gets to the point of being too far gone because it isn't treated properly.

But I know this isn't like a health and wellness podcast so I won't like go too far out in the weeds. But those are things that I feel really passionate about that I want to invest a lot of time and effort and heart and soul in. Because those are the things that fill my Um, I love her so much. It hurts. Um, she's 11 and most days she doesn't pay attention to me now because she's her own person. She's, you know, living her own life with her friends, but she's not a teenager yet. So I'm like holding on to like the last remnants of her, like wanting to hang out with me and be my bestie before

I lose her for a couple years and then she'll be back, you know. But right now, like when I went into hiding after the show, that's where I was investing all my time because she's on summer break right now. So we've been spending a lot of time together and hanging out and doing all the bestie things. Are the DMs open, so to speak? What do you mean? Or is your heart open to love? I mean you you talked about taking a three-year break after a bad experience and obviously this experience wasn't an easy one

Probably one of the harder ones you've experienced Are you going to take another two-year hiatus or are you you know? And get back out there. I think For the first time i'm gonna plead the fifth on this one. I'm just gonna hold my cards a little close to my chest. I'm not, I'm gonna keep the topic of relationships off the table for a while. That's not really my focus. I just wanna enjoy autumn

and the other things I'm passionate about. And if there's someone special, there's someone special. If not, I'm okay with that too. A lot of special people out there. Yeah, but like special for me, cause I'm really special. Like that's one thing I do know that even despite all of this,

like I know I'm so deserving of like a really good partner because I know, it sounds so cliche, but it's like, I know what I have to offer. So, you know, I know what I have to offer, so I know what I bring to the table. But truly, I know that I would be a really good wife. So I really want the reciprocity of the partner that I am. Is your reluctance based more on,

do you think you still need to heal from the experience or are you just? Believe it or not, I don't think my healing is right now that I'm working through, is coming from my experience on the show. That kind of stirred up a lot of, you could see, I mean, I couldn't even like get through it

without completely getting choked up. There's a lot of childhood trauma that that stirred up that I think I need to work through in order to make me a better person and a better mom and ultimately a better partner. Because those things, those mistakes that I made in that relationship and on the show, those haven't been resolved.

Those are things I need to work on for me so that I can be better. That's good. Do we have any other questions for Jess? Do you wanna hang out? Yeah, of course I do. Jess, thank you so much for coming. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure

getting to know you more and to finally have everyone hear your truth. We wish you nothing but the best. Thanks for being vulnerable. I'm glad you're giving yourself some grace and not being so hard on yourself. And I hope that you still shoot for the stars and take, allow people, or I hope you still, you know, shoot for the stars and take, allow people or I hope you still take risks

on people because without that, you know. No, I'm still gonna live. I'll still live my best. Love you. Love you guys. Well, we love Jess. We love you guys. Thanks for listening. If you are tuning in for the first time to hear Jess, stick around, subscribe, follow us, share with friends. We'll be back tomorrow for another episode of Reality Recap. Jess, you gotta watch For Violin USA. I can't. It's too soon. Oh, God. It's too soon. Wait, how do you know that I haven't watched it? I don't do it. Have you?

I haven't. Okay. I haven't. I love them and support them from a distance, but like, it's too soon. It's movie night tomorrow. I'm taking- Do you know what movie night is? Like quite literally or?

It's my first movie night. But yeah, they kind of did what they did with them, perfect match, but then they show clips of what the guys actually did. It would be like if you were to- If they pulled in a TV and showed that finale. After Harry told you he didn't do it. And they don't have to wait till the end?

No. Oh my God, I signed up for the wrong freaking show. That's where I should have gone. Anyways, if you're watching or not watching, we have a lot to get into and talk about. It'll be amazing. Thank Jess. Thank you, Jess, for coming.

You'll follow her. Where can people follow you? I still feel silly. It's saying, follow me. I'm asking people to follow you. Oh, okay. My Instagram handle is JessBess, and so is my TikTok. I still feel silly saying, follow me. Like- I'm asking people to follow you. Okay. My Instagram handle is JessBess and so is my TikTok. All right.

We'll give her a follow. It's a good follow and we'll see you tomorrow. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.