The Viall Files - E811 - Going Deeper w/ JoJo (Joanna Levesque)

Episode Date: September 18, 2024

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper, with Joanna Levesque, formerly known as Jojo! You all know her, we all love her! Jojo is thriving with her music, new memoir, and appearance in Broadway���s Moulin Rouge… joining us for a tell all! What is she doing now? How was it being a childhood star? And how is it finding love? “I'm better at being honest about how I feel, than trying to be cool” Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0J6DW1KeDX6SpoVEuQpl7z?si=c35995a56b8d4038 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS Altoids - Find Altoids In The Check-Out Aisle! Grab Your Tin Today! Cymbiotika - Head over to https://www.Cymbiotika.com/VIALL for 20% off + free shipping on your subscription order. Blissy - Because you’re a listener, Blissy is offering 60-nights risk-free PLUS an additional 30% off when you shop at https://www.Blissy.com/VIALLPOD and use code VIALLPOD. Athletic Greens - Try AG1 and get a FREE bottle of Vitamin D3K2 AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase at https://www.drinkAG1.com/VIALL  Orgain - Orgain 30 gram protein shakes are available at Costco. And If you want to get in on the delicious protein-packed nutrition today, head to https://www.Orgain.com/VIALL and use code VIALL for 20% off your order. Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @iamjojo @justinkaphillips @dereklanerussell Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 01:59 - Meeting People 07:49 - Horoscopes 09:19 - Being Single 16:31 - Parents 21:23 - Book And Fame 31:23 - ReRecording Music 39:37 - Lady Gaga 44:11 - Acting and Singing 54:42 - Free Time 59:35 - Relationships 01:07:28 - Mother 01:17:47 - Regrets 01:23:06 - Bankruptcy 01:28:47 - Outro

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Yeah. Joanna, welcome to the Vilephiles. Oh, thank you. How are you? So excited to be here. So excited to have you. I know I asked you, do you go by Joanna or Jojo? In life.

Do you go, do you like, do you have to, do you often correct people now or? It's interchangeable. I really don't care, but I feel like we're going to be pals. So I feel like it's Joanna or Jo. The people who really know you. Personal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The people who really know me. But if you don't know me or don't care, then that's fine. And Jojo is fine. Are you from New York? No, I'm from Massachusetts. Massachusetts. Okay. So East Coast.

East Coast. Yeah. So it feels like a homecoming to live here again. Oh, you've been living in New York, so it's just doing Broadway? Yes. So I lived here for four months or five months last year. Okay. And then I'll be, well, I'm doing three months again in Moulin Rouge the musical. And then I'm probably just going to move here because I think I've just done enough time in LA. I love LA, it's been a blessing, but I think I'm just gonna. We loved New York. We actually met in New York. Really? Yeah, so it's kind of like,

I've never lived in New York. Natalie actually lived in New York when she was- I was like 15. Yeah. But every time we come back, we're always like, ah, love! I know, it's romantic and exciting, right? It is! My best friend and her husband, who's now we're all friends, they met,

actually no, they met in LA, but they fell in love in New York. So whenever they come back here, it's like, it reignites all of that. It does. Did you guys meet in the wild? I met, I found him on my explore page. Yeah, no, I found him on my explore page.

And I was like, this guy is really hot. I'm just gonna send him a DM. And then he responded and a couple of weeks later, he was like, I'm gonna be in New York. And I was living in Savannah, Georgia. And so I was like, I will also be in New York at that same time coincidentally, and I will see you there, we will hang out.

And we did. Oh my God. And I bought a flight. Yeah. Are you serious? Yeah. I love that, that's actually? Yeah. I love that. That's actually very inspiring.

You never know. What's the most adventurous thing you've done in dating? I've done a lot of adventurous things actually. I'm kind of adventurous when it comes to that. I love love. The most adventurous thing I've done is, I think taking, I think if ever you've been heartbroken, if ever you've been burned in love, I think that it's-

I have, yeah. Yeah, same. I think that taking a chance on just being open is adventurous enough. For sure. But I let somebody show me their hometown with absolutely no, we had only hung out once before, but they were like, I know you're busy.

I know you have one day. Would you be willing to come? I have this, I could plan a day for us, blah, blah, blah. And, um, we had been talking and all that. And I was like, you know what? First I said no, but then I was like, actually, why not? He's so nice. He's been nothing but a gentleman. He's a nice guy, wants to be nice to me.

And I have this day open. Sure. So I, yeah, like a random city that I had never really explored before. There was no pressure. There was no pretense. And it was just a nice experience. And he actually- Was it like, this is where I had my first kiss.

This is where I worked. This is where I- No, he was just like, here's things that I think you'll enjoy about my city. Because, you know, as you get to- so he like took me, he knows that I love museums and he knows that I love music and he knows that I love food. So he like put together this whole cure, took me on a boat. I'm like, this is really thoughtful. How did you meet him in the wild or?

No, we met on the internet. Okay. We met on Instagram. Yes! There you go. We love that. So that's what I'm saying. I'm like, you just never know.

But that being said, I'm, single. So it's, I just, I'm not in that space where I'm like, I don't think I'm ready right now. Okay. Well, I was curious, cause you mentioned there was no pressure and things like that. I think, you know, on this show, we talk about relationships and dating all the time. Which is what I love about your show.

I love how far into it you guys go. I love that you love the show. Yeah. I'm flattered. But what was, I mean, I think for all the people listening, like what was it about, advice maybe even for guys, like what was it about what he did that made you feel safe and comfortable in that situation?

Because like, when you take a risk in your shoes and meet essentially a strange guy in his home base, like you're kind of going through a checklist of like, you know, when you take a risk, you know, in your shoes and meet essentially a strange guy in his home base, like you're kind of going through a checklist of like, you know, I think as us guys, we're not worried about safety as much as the ladies might be. Paramount to us. What did he do that really made you feel like, you know, I don't know how this is going to go, but I feel safe, you know, going and meeting this guy. Like, how did you go about doing that? Well, it was months of talking and he had already come to LA. We had already met in person. I wouldn't have just called.

I just couldn't do that. I would just be too afraid. But also, this person had enough to, has a solid career and enough to risk that I didn't think he was gonna murder me. So there was that, you know what I mean? And obviously you guys had that same foundation. No, we definitely asked each other. Yeah, like, are you a murderer?

Yeah. So let me know up top. I don't know that you would tell me, but like... Yeah, but I'm just gonna throw it out there. So months of just getting a banter under our belt and just like feeling comfortable and being like, oh, let me ask you some of these questions and let me... He never pressed me to like,

I don't wanna be on the phone with somebody that I don't know like that or care about. Like, I am not gonna be on the phone with you. So like, he was down to just do the texting or the voice notes or wherever, and just wasn't like offended that I'm really, really busy right now. And I appreciated that because some guys,

the ego gets involved and blah, blah, blah. And I just, I understand. Like sometimes we're just on different pages, but I would say just the patience and the, uh, I felt that he was very secure and that made me feel good. Yeah. It just, just caught me in a moment where I was like, there would be nothing wrong with just giving it a shot, having a new experience. I'm a I don't know how into astrology you guys are. I'm not like super, super into it. But I think it's interesting. I'm a Sagittarius. That's my son's sign. And then I do know my whole chart and everything. But

it's like, I'm, I'm, we're the seekers of the zodiac. We like newness, we're down for experimentation and new experiences. So I's like, we're the seekers of the zodiac. We like newness. We're down for experimentation and new experiences. So I'm like, why not? Can you do other people's reading or do you just know yours? No, I ask and then I'll be like, oh, you're a Leo. I don't know what that means. Yeah, yeah, that's how I am too.

I just like to gather the information though. And then maybe I'll like one day it'll register, but right now. I'm always like, what are you? And then they say something like, oh, okay, cool. But if they say the same as me, I'm like, oh my gosh, me too, I'm a Virgo. Exactly, exactly.

Are you a Virgo? I'm a Virgo, yeah. Okay, yeah. See, I'm like, okay, I don't know that. Yeah, you're like, I can't keep, love it. I know Beyonce's a Virgo. Libra over here. And we are the same.

Libra, my mom's a Libra. So see, that's as far as it goes. I know we like balance. We like balance. Which I honestly do, I mean, I'm not super into astrology, but I do feel like I'm- Do you only know that we like balance. As far as it goes. We like balance. Which I honestly do, I mean, I'm not super into astrology, but I do feel like I'm- Do you only know that you like balance because that's like the sign that you've seen?

Yeah. The little like, smile. All I know about being a Libra is that, you know, we like to even things out, you know? Yeah, I can see that. Which I do think fits my personality, because I'm always looking at the other side of the equation sometimes.

The thing about astrology is that, I mean, we all possess all of the, like, we all contain multitudes. I think, you know, I identify with always looking to balance the scales and always seeking to understand what another person's point of view is in everything. So it's not like exclusive. That's why the whole birth chart is interesting, because our sun sign says one thing about us, but then so does our moon, and so does our ascendant, and our rising and all that stuff.

It makes me sound like I'm this astro wizard, but I'm- I think you're among friends. I feel like it's super popular. I'm just a curious bitch. I'm just into a lot of things. So you mentioned you're deeply single right now. Obviously you're super busy. You got Moulin Rouge, you have your new book out, coming out.

Congratulations, by the way. Thank you. Is it just because you're just in your busy, crushing life era, or is it more about just, you're not ready to get back out there and you're still kind of on a healing journey? What's the primary reasons for you kind of being comfortable

with being deeply single and not really pursuing any type of romantic relationships right now. It really boils down to a lack of time to put into something and not feeling like I have energy to give toward that because that requires like going outside of work and meeting someone and doing that thing. And yeah, it involves time that just at the moment

I don't have, that doesn't mean that in a few months I wouldn't be open, but it's been actually really nice to have this time to, healing with someone else can be incredibly beneficial because then you get to see in practice how the things that you've been working on every day, how they really are in the real world with somebody. But there's also something to be said for like creating these new agreements with yourself

and these new routines and seeing what do I really like and value right now and what feels good to me and what are my non-negotiables, all these different things. And it's just me and my 13 year old dog right now. And that's, it's a really, really beautiful time because as much as I want her to be around forever, she won't. And like, that's a whole other thing that I can't deal with. Wait, do not make me cry.

Oh my God. It's a lot. We got two dogs and it's just like, hmm. It's, ugh. So, you know, we've been through a lot together. She's had a few step dads and now it's just, you know, it's time for us to really have our moment in the sun together.

What's your favorite part about being single? I got to imagine, like, I know for me, like as someone who always, I mean, as my whole adult life, and I guess even in my teenage years, I like, I always truly, I always deeply pursued love. Oh yeah, me too. It's been such a priority for me. Yeah, and I think sometimes even misguided I probably over over prioritized it and I feel like even like, you know

You kind of like reference that in your book almost, you know Yeah, and I think as I've gotten older I've had to mature a little bit But yeah, it wasn't until I was comfortable being single and being alone I was like my my professional life and personal life really elevated once I got comfortable just being single and being alone. Because I think in my twenties, I was just, you know, I cared about my professional career, but I was, I felt like, well, I, I haven't found love yet. I, I needed to do that first before I can really succeed. And I felt like I had it all kind of messed up. Did you do, do you relate to that? Is that?

I definitely relate to that. But I think that, I mean, I think it's a wonderful thing to prioritize love. And I think it's also like really smart. I think that behind every strong man is a stronger woman. And I think that for you to be like, no, I want my partner so I can then, you know, go out into the world and do, and I think vice versa. I think that for you to be like, no, I want my partner so I can then, you know, go out into the world and do, and I think vice versa. I think that to be supported in a partnership, like there's so much, you can really just, it can be a great foundation to then spring, spring off from. But in my twenties, I think that I was so, so hurt by, there was so much confusion in my life, personally, like in my family life and in my career,

things that like people were just not telling me what was going on and I was just like embarrassed and confused, so I used relationships, not consciously, but subconsciously, I think I was using them as a distraction to be like, well, I'm just busy in every, I'm just busy in everything. I'm busy in love. I'm busy in, you know, being in the studio, I'm busy in doing this, I'm busy, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, I can't feel,

I need to make sure that I can't, I either don't have time to feel anything or I'm feeling everything. So I was just really on like a rollercoaster of stimulation and love had a lot to do with that and well had something to do with that. I was just addicted to highs and because there were a lot of lows too. So I was trying to balance it out and the scales of balance. And I think that at a certain point, I just needed to be like, this is the definition of insanity to keep jumping from relationship to relationship. Like I've had all these different two year,

three year things, that's not what's up. I'm the common denominator here. Let me chill the fuck out. Well, it's funny you mentioned I was the common denominator. I always like to ask, you know, cause I always would ask myself, I'm sure, you know, your exes played their own role and we all have our frustrations, but what through your relationships

have you learned about the role that you played or just maybe bad habits or things that you kind of always notice about yourself in relationships that, you know, when you look back, you thought maybe this played a role in things not working out. Oh my God, where do I begin? I was such a mess, such a mess. But also very earnest and very eager to try to get things right. Sometimes it's just, I mean, alchemy is such a part of relationships. It's that when two elements come together, I'm my own element. He's his own element. And together we create something that is its own new thing. I mean, I identify and I talk about in the book, my definition of addiction and of addict because I grew up in a household where both parents identified as addicts. So I think about it differently than maybe the majority

of people who didn't grow up in a house like that, think of it, which is that like, it's not just about one substance that has this thing. It's about trying to fill this empty void that I have felt and that my parents also felt in a lot of my family. I was not a safe place for myself. So I was not a safe person to be in a relationship with. I also attracted people that didn't know who they were. I didn't know who I was. Can now see in retrospect that the people that

I have been in relationship with, the things that I didn't like about them or the things that bothered me, you know, they, we were attracted to each other to hold a mirror to each other. So the things that offended me or that, you know, I had a lot to learn from that. My ego got inflamed and ego in the sense of like, I went into defense mode. I could be very defensive. I could be self-righteous. I mean, you name an undesirable quality. I have possessed it. I have exercised it. That being said, I think I've also been a really good

partner, you know, because I think that I'm, I mean, I'm single, but you know, I'm always, always into accountability. Always. I'll always be the first to say I'm sorry and to be like, you know, I'm actively working on this. I'm into that. Yeah. I'm into that. Growing up in that household of having two parents who identify as addicts,

was that addictive personality something that you struggled with from the jump, or is that something you realized kind of later in life you struggle with, or is that something that you struggled with from the jump, or is that something you realized kind of later in life you struggle with, or is that something that you were like, I'm not like them really at all? I think that I felt like I was not like them at all. And my parents weren't together, but they were both on their own journey. And I was like this with my mom for a long time

and then went through different stages with my dad and my mom, but I think that I felt, yeah, self-righteous toward them. I think I felt like, oh, I have it all, I have it figured out. I felt parental toward them, actually. And again, I would say a bit self-righteous until recently over the past few years

when I've been like, oh, I am no better or worse and I have the same predispositions. They got it from somewhere and I got it from somewhere and it all just like comes into one thing. But we have a lot of similarities and it just manifests a little differently, I guess. I don't know how, I've never even asked Nellie this question, but like sometimes I've, you grow up and then you like see the, you know, what you get from your parents.

And there are times I've always feel like, I feel like I get all my parents bad habits, you know? Like, I don't know if it's like sometimes, maybe it's just because we always notice like, you know, like the things that our parents aren't good at or what we're not good at, or maybe always notice like, you know, like the things that our parents aren't good at or what we're not good at, or maybe you're just, you know, kind of judging yourself, but is that something you relate to or?

Yeah. But I think that I have, they're endearing qualities too. There are things that I remember my dad doing or ways of him being that I, you know, the things that I would really judge. And those are just things that, yeah, I have within me and need to actively work on not leaning into or embodying as much.

But, um. I feel like you're incredibly wise. Did you like, did you go into therapy and learn a lot about yourself? Have you just figured it all out on your own? I mean, how? Self preservation. Wait, what'd you say? Self preservation.

Self preservation, self realization. I am an only child and I grew up around adults and I've been in the music industry since I was 12. Well, even younger than that. I've been, you know, the breadwinner for my family since I was six years old. And I think that that makes you really, it makes you a certain type of personality. And I was already a kind of old soul type of personality. Like from when I was born, I was told that, oh, you're an old soul, you're an old soul.

I'm like, what does that mean? I'm like, cool, you think I'm an adult? Perfect. I never wanted to be a kid. So I think that now, like at 33, I think I'm kind of catching up to where I'm, because now it's like, okay, I can be like, I can impart some wisdom to a younger generation because I've actually lived a lot of life.

I actually do have things to share and it's not weird. You know, I can actually kind of speak to certain things, but yeah, a lot of therapy. I started therapy, I would say at 22. So over, just over 10 years of being in therapy and not consistently, but I definitely needed it when I started it. I just wasn't, I was probably gonna

die. I was probably gonna end up drinking and driving and killing myself or even worse, killing someone else. And of course, both would be terrible, but to live with killing someone else, I don't know how I would do that. Like it wouldn't, I just couldn't. And that was the road it was going on. So I needed to do something. Do you think someone who's been the bread runner in their family since they were six, do you think at times you have a hard time

letting people take care of you? No. Okay. Okay. Maybe. Oh. Maybe I do, but I don't think so because I just don't assume that they will, I think is what it is.

I think there's always an undertone or an energy of like preparedness to like, I'm always gonna have something to fall back on. I'm always gonna, I don't even really know what it's like long-term to have somebody like take care of me, especially where I did feel like a parent to both of my parents at different times. I don't really like look to somebody to like come

and take care of me even if I'm sick or something like that. But when they do, I'm actually really down for that. Like I will make space for that. It's lovely. Well, your book, Over the Influence, amazing cover. Thanks. Congratulations on the book, by the way. And you really open up in the book, you really it seems you cover a lot kind of your

entire life. And you really kind of go, you really go there through with relations with your parents, your career, and what inspired you just to really open up about all these elements of your life? I mean, if I was gonna write a book, why hold anything back? What would the point be? It might, you know, even if just my friends

and family read this, or even if just a few fans read this, they deserve to know what journey they've been on with me. Like, so much, I realized that even I didn't understand until I started to put it down on paper. And I wanted to explore what I've learned in these 33 years, because a lot of people don't get to see the highs and the lows and get to the other side of feeling depressed and confused and like your

life is over and like what's the fucking point and all this stuff and I imagine I'll feel that way again. Like, God willing, life is long. I looked up a couple years ago and I was realizing that it was gonna be 20 years this year since I put out my first album. And I wasn't ready to put out new music. I wanted to focus my energy on kind of making sense of what this career has meant to me

and what I could share with other people that will make it worth all the weirdness that I went through. That album was actually my first CD. I ever, yeah. Your first CD? Yeah, it was my first CD. Oh my God.

What was that like for you being so young and being, you were the first solo artist to be number one on the charts, isn't that? The youngest. The youngest, like that's insane. What was that like for you at that age? It was everything, bitch. It was, hell yeah.

It was very exciting. I fucking knew it, hell yeah. It was everything. It's exactly what I wanted. It's what I, like it is. It's exactly what I dreamed of since I was an even littler girl. It was so crazy.

And something that I talk about in the book that was very disorienting was how badly bullied I was in school, how deeply uncool I was and felt and was told I was all the time. And then to be so famous. And then to have, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was very much, yeah.

What are you guys doing back in the St. Mary's parking lot? You know? Yeah, bitch, exactly. I don't know if I feel like, I feel like almost every, but it seems like a lot of successful women I know all have been bullied in elementary school or high school. Oh, she got it. She got mean girled. Yeah, she got it. She got mean girl.

Yeah. Yeah, I got like, I had started modeling at 13 and went into ninth or eighth or ninth grade. And the popular girl, her boyfriend was like liking my pictures on Facebook and she printed them out and wrote like, whore sucks for free, ho, and mean girls-dom around the school.

Sucks for free, as if it would be better if you sucked for money. Sucks for money, yeah. Anyway. That's an excellent point, Joelle. I don't know, I'm just saying. No, but that's so horrible. Yeah, it was so fucked up.

And so embarrassing, and I'm sorry. I'd walk around the school and they'd be like, I heard you suck for free, you wanna go to the bathroom and suck it? And I would be like, I don't even know what the fuck that means. Yeah, I'm not even doing that. Oh my God. No, yeah, it was bad.

It's so like just because you're, you know, becoming a successful model or becoming a musician or things like that doesn't mean that like, I mean, I still am dealing with the effects of that. I still walk into a room and think that nobody likes me. Not all the time. But there is an undercurrent of like, I have to actively talk to myself and be like, first of all, you don't need everyone to like you. You don't like everyone.

And it doesn't mean that people are actively, you know. And none of these people know you and like they don't, no one really gives a fuck. No one really gives a fuck is really the point. It was a dream come true. Like I thought that at 13, when my first single came out, I was like, oh, it's about time. Cause I've been already working on this since I was three. Yeah. So, so like you were in school and pursuing music,

getting bullied at school, and then your song goes number one. And like, what was that like being in school? And then were people within like, wait, no, we love you, we don't hate you. I started being homeschooled on the road because I started like, my first tour I was ever on,

I opened up for Usher on his Confessions tour in Europe. So that's the tour that I got to go out of school for. My mom was like, I really don't want you to leave school. And I'm like, haha, I guess I got to now. I was like, I got my wish. And so I had a tutor that was, that taught me all my subjects and everything. And she traveled with me and then we sent the, my schoolwork to a PO box in Ojai, California. It would get graded, sent back to us.

But so I wasn't from eighth grade on, I didn't go to a regular public school, but up till then it had been public school vibes. And I thought that, yeah, so I'm from south of Boston. I'm from a place called Foxborough, Massachusetts. And then at 11, we moved to, my mom and I moved to California I signed a record deal through a series of crazy events and then the record label moved us to New Jersey and I thought every time that I moved that it would be like all kids in California will get me and like I won't be bullied there but

nope it's not them it's me I'm the weirdo, you know? And then, but in New Jersey, it was a little better because I came in as the girl with the record deal. So, but then I was like, oh, fuck these kids too. Cause now they don't really like me, but I'd rather they like me. But I suppose it's just like a metaphor or maybe metaphor is the wrong word, but in adult life,

I mean, you know that like, as soon as you feel some success or have some success, there's always someone knocking on your door, ready to tear you down. Like you can't have success without critics. You have to really learn to embrace your critics because I always kind of say, if they're not criticizing you, they're not noticing you. And it's like, that's unfortunately a way

you have to look at it because the flip side of that is just letting those people get into your head and Second-guess yourself and things like that. And is it Brene Brown who talks about you know being in the arena versus not? You know, let it's only the people that are what does she say? It's the thing about the critics are not the people that have the courage to actually put themselves out there and be in the arena Yeah, I think she's talking about like gladiator sports or whatever. Like it's a lot easier to just be like, oh, I would have done that Oh, would you have you're not in the fucking. I think she's talking about like gladiator sports or whatever like it's a lot easier to just be like oh I would have done that oh would you have you're not in the fucking lion's den. It's like watching the Olympics and you're like oh gosh you didn't land that like triple double back flip.

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We've all heard the stories recently of Taylor Swift rerecording her masters and the whole screw the brawn of it all. And I think a lot of people don't know a lot about the music industry and just kind of all I know about the music industry is just how complicated it seems to be and how vicious at times it seems to be. But you were someone who rerecorded your songs, am I right? Like even before it was a thing and then before it became, you know, everyone heard about it because of Taylor Swift. Like can you tell us that story or how does that all work? And I guess, because I think a lot of people listening don't really understand even after

the Taylor Swift of it all and the whole Scooter Braun fiasco, like what that really means. Yeah, I mean, I barely do. It's very convoluted. The music industry is the wild, wild west, particularly right now. And when I started, when I signed my deal at 12 years old in 2003, you can imagine how much has changed in, you know, over 20 years. And so even just keeping up with where it's at, it really is changing all the time, but there's different revenues of income for an artist, and there's different contracts that you'll sign.

And so what I did is I was able to, my music, my first two albums, for example, which had sold millions and millions of copies around the world, were not available on streaming platforms because my former label didn't make a deal with the digital streaming platforms. So DSPs are like Apple and Spotify and Tidal, for example, and each record label needs to make a deal with those things for their artists' music to be on them. So my former label, because they were a smaller imprint that was distributed through a major, when they lost their major label distribution they were no longer like under that umbrella. Also on their roster was Aaliyah, so her whole posthumous catalog, everything,

Tony Braxton, Tank, Timbaland and Magoo. So none of our music was available. So my big songs, Leave Get Out, Too Little Too Late, Baby It's You, my songs that stream very well to this day were not available. And my fans were asking online, why'd you take your music off streaming? Because they don't know how this works.

I didn't personally take it. They're like, are you, you know, you just want to like, you just want to like start fresh and you don't want to like think about, I'm like, no, I like money. I want to make, I want to, I don't want my legacy that I've been building since I was a fetus to be erased. That's weird. So I was very frustrated and my manager at the time found this loophole where I could re-record my new masters of my old music. And it would be like remaking it because enough years had passed to where you could legally do that. There's like publishing royalties, there's master royalties, and there's mechanical royalties. There's all these different streams of revenue

like I was talking about for an artist. So Blackground, my former label owns the master rights. So I needed to create a new master. And that would mean that everything would need to be re-recorded because the 2004 versions of JoJo, for example, my first album is one master. Does that make sense so far or not? Okay.

I'm like, am I explaining this? No, you are, you're doing great. Okay. And I think, yeah. I think too. I really, it's crazy, it's weird. I mean. So we recorded everything from the ground up.

So I had some of my close producer friends remake the songs to sound as close to the original as possible. Cause what I was trying to do was not necessarily reinvent the wheel, but was trying to just, um, make sure that my fans could have these songs that are very nostalgic to them and these things that are a part of my history. And I didn't want to be erased. And I also wanted the collaborators and the people that wrote these songs for me or with me to have their just do as well.

So we created this opportunity for us all to be able to kind of reclaim the narrative and feel empowered because I felt so disempowered for so long and just told, first of all, you can never get out of this contract. Second of all, there's nothing you can do about this. You're just kind of at the you're you're a victim of your circumstance. You are a victim of music industry politics. I'm like, that is the worst. That sounds terrible. I don't want to accept that. Yeah. So we just tried to come up with a new way. And I'm glad that in a sense, it kind of inspired other artists to be able to say, we don't need to do things the way that they've

been done before. We don't need to accept this. We're not going to take this, you know, and kind of forge a new way forward when it looks like there isn't a way forward. So how old were you when you re-recorded? 25, 26? Yeah. So this wasn't that long ago.

The only reason that I actually have SoundCloud downloaded on my phone to this day is because of your rendition of Marvin's Room. Oh my God. It's so good. How can we get that off of SoundCloud and downloadable? I don't know if everyone has heard this, but you, how long ago was that?

Oh my God, it was over 10 years ago. It's so good. Thank you. It's so good. Was this like a, hey, we need to call Drake? Or was this like, let's just, I'm just gonna have fun. It's not like that. And that's why I can't make money off of it,

because that's Drake's song, that's Drake's melody, that's maybe Boy Wanda on the beat or 40. So they own the, they, I mean, that's his melody. I wrote new lyrics to it, but there are so many different things that come into publishing and master rights and mechanical and all these things. And that's why we put it on SoundCloud because I would need to have gotten there.

So I had his blessing, like he was like, and that was a trend as well that I, I'm going to go ahead and I started and I'm glad that people, you know, also were doing the Marvin's room thing and stuff, but I'm, I think I was the first one to do that. And then it was like this little moment in the zeitgeist and that was cool. But yeah. So his label that owns, owned the rights, like took down, you know, millions and millions of streams on YouTube's and stuff on YouTube's because they own that.

Yeah. Even though I was just doing my rendition. Um, so yeah, it's, it's very, very nuanced. All the, the ownership stuff. So that's why ownership is really, really important. It's, it's like the most important conversation that I would wanna have with young artists and people who are curious about getting into this game

or that people that ask me, what advice would you give to someone who's just getting started? Like, how do I sign a record deal? And the reason why I would tell people not to sign a record deal is not because of my crazy story, because my story isn't that crazy. It's actually kind of far for the course.

It's just that it's been a big part of my narrative. And because I started so young, there's just different variables that play. But the reason why I would say it is because you don't need a label anymore. And if you can retain ownership of your voice, which is one of the things that they're going to try to take away from you legally, you should maintain. I didn't, I couldn't choose what I did with my voice because I no longer owned my voice. So meaning I couldn't even sing in a movie

without a label's approval. And sometimes they might want say a million dollars for JoJo's voice to be used. Well, what if Universal Pictures doesn't want to pay that? Well, then I don't get to sing in that movie. Do you know what I'm saying? So you don't have freedom of mobility when you don't own yourself.

So that's why I think that conversation is really important just for songwriters as well. And I think that that's a big point that Taylor Swift was wanting to make was saying, this is my intellectual property. These are my ideas. this is my intellectual property. These are my ideas. This is my fan base. Even if you legally own me, like you don't own me.

And so yeah, it's cool that like, this is something that people are interested in. Another thing you talk about in your book is kind of coming up with Lady Gaga. And I don't know if it was like, you guys shared managers or? My executive producer of my first two albums was X'd out of my career.

Through like some crazy shit that was going on. And he was down on his luck. And then a year later, he found, like it's not like he picked her up from the street. She was incredible, you know, off being Stephanie. So he like found Lady Gaga and then blasted off on that rocket ship with her. So that was, and that's something I talk about

and that I don't think even my fans really know that, like that little link there of me being like, oh, my ex, he's never ever coming back to me. He was my brother figure, my uncle figure, my father figure, all wrapped up in one. Vincent was everything to me. He was my brother figure, my uncle figure, my father figure, all wrapped up in one. Vincent was everything to me. And I felt left high and dry. Like on my 16th birthday, it was just, I just never heard from him for about a year. And then the next time I saw him was like, in a paparazzi shot with Lady Gaga or something like that. And I'm like,

oh my God. And then for me, it wasn't like, oh, fuck this bitch. I was like, oh my God, she's unbelievable. Wow, he's never coming back. You know, it's one of those things. But nevertheless, obviously it's very vulnerable for you to talk about that and she is obviously a huge star, one of the biggest stars that we have. And it can be, you know, a blow to the ego sometimes

to especially have someone very close to you than helping them that star out. And you know, what made you want to open up about that? Obviously, you know, she has a lot of fans too. And just, I think some people can be scared to open up about something like that and that topic for fear of, like you said, like jealousy or things like that. Well, why did you want to be vulnerable about that topic?

I think jealousy is something we all feel. I don't even know if I felt, I guess I could, I felt a little jealous, but it was more that I'm like, I haven't harnessed my potential in the way that she has. Like particularly at that time, I was just like, wow, she's extraordinary. Like to feel her life force on display up on stage, I was just in awe. And she's a few years older than me and I was just like looking up to her. And I don't know, I'm just not really, it doesn't concern me to be human and to talk about those things. Like, I'm much better

at being vulnerable than I am of conveying any type of image or I'm just kind of over it, which is why I'm talking about over the influence. I'm just, I can't really phone it in. I can't really be a character, you know, and that's everybody is where they are for a reason. I haven't been able to do that. I'm just too like sensitive and I'm just too. Yeah, I'm better at being honest about how I feel than trying to be cool. When was the last time you talked to Vincent? Ah, well, you know, he, he was gonna, he wanted to work together again and he was X'd out of her career and he's, do y'all know about it?

It's crazy, it's really crazy. Yeah, just a quick Google search and you'll be like, oh my God. So I, I just hope he's doing well. He's lived a wild life. Yes, of course. I am the wild man. See? Have you ever run into Lady Gaga at all and like talked about the mutual connect? I don't think that we have talked about it, but she's just really one of my favorite living artists.

I think she's amazing. And I mean, artists in every sense of the word. I think she is an actress and a songwriter. I just have the deepest respect for her and how diversified she is. I love so much when she did that project with Tony Bennett. It really, really allowed me to be like, she doesn't care. She's not living for other people. Yeah.

She's not influenced by, you know, what people tell her she should be doing. I am confident that no one on her team was like, you know what you should do next? You should commit to doing a Vegas residency with a 90 year old jazz legend and make us an album of standards, of American standards. And I just love that she did. I just think that's so fire. And that's the way I want to live my life. That's incredible.

Just doing whatever feels like the vibe. What do you enjoy more, acting or singing? Well, right now I enjoy the combination of the two. And that's why I really like musical theater. That's where I got my start. I played six-year-old Tommy in the Who's Tommy. I wore a little boy wig and just in local theater in at the Orpheum and Foxborough Mass. And I really love that that combination of singing

and acting and I'd love to do that in movies and television too. Yeah, I think I've been getting a lot more into acting particularly recently, really studying it. And I just have so much respect for it. And Lady Gaga has been a big inspiration. I'm sure nobody was thinking that they, nobody wanted to take her seriously as an actress. And she made it impossible, she made herself impossible to ignore. So you never know what that moment is gonna be

where you turn a corner and all of a sudden you're living a completely different life. So I'm just into that journey. But I will say that doing the same show, getting to like play one character for a long period of time, having a different audience every night, sometimes twice a day on the Broadway schedule for us is, is eight times a week. So two shows on Wednesday, two shows on Saturday. It's very, very humbling. It's very, it's not for everyone, but for some crazy reason it is for me. I really like it.

And I feel like there's always something new to explore. Like if my scene partner is going through something different, I can feel that. It'll make me act different. And we get to be really sensitive in the moment. And also, I don't know, there's just a lot to learn. I'm in a season where I just wanna learn. When you first did Broadway,

did you expect it to be more like a one and done or a temporary thing and like you've found a love for it or is it something you anticipating wanting to make it a longer career? I really felt like it was going to be a hinge point in my life that I would never be the same after it. For some reason, I just felt like there's something about this thing that I'm about to do that is going to shift things for me.

And I also started writing the outline. I've started writing my book while I was doing my first run on Broadway. And I knew from, I would say, the first month of doing the show of Moulin Rouge on Broadway, that I wanted to originate a role, that I wanted to produce original theater as well. And that these are my people. I wanna be a part of this community. I wanna live in New York. I was like, I don't know why, I know that's crazy.

I'm like, I think LA is expensive, and Manhattan is even more expensive. I don't like taxes in California. What am I thinking wanting to live here? But I just feel, I've ignored so many instincts where I just have this overwhelming feeling that I should or shouldn't do something. And I'm just not ignoring those things anymore. I'm like, I'm curious about this. This feels good to me. I feel like a little kid again. And I think that that's what I'm responsible to listen to.

I think that it's like connected to some type of destiny path. If we follow those things that light us up. I spent a lot of time of feeling like really uninspired in my career, really uninspired with trying to do things the way that people told me they're like, you should do this and then this in your career and you should try to make it look this way and this is what will look cool and you should try to hang with these people and you should try to do that. And all of that makes me feel stupid and really not like myself. So I'm like, I literally don't care what anybody thinks

about this particular thing that I just like doing. And so that's like what I'm responsible to. It's very Lady Gaga-esque. I mean, she inspires me for real. When did you get to that point? I mean, I relate to a lot of things that you're saying too, in terms of just having that ability to disconnect from being online or fans or things like that.

You know, like when did you stop reading your comments basically like? I do read my comments. Regularly? I read all my, yeah, I read my social media comments, but I don't actively seek out. How do you disconnect then from, cause I always say, if I ever get advice to people who are asking, you know, especially if they've been on reality TV, they're recently on, as

I always tell people, sometimes the positive comments are made more dangerous than the negative ones. Oh my God, you are so right. It validates strangers, you know. You're right. So how do you, when you're reading comments, disconnect from, you know, just reading what people are saying to, you know, not taking it personally? Because I have this, like for me, it's just like I have the strength to go to the grocery

store and not buy the Oreos, but I don't have the strength to not eat the Oreos at my house. Right. Like I have the strength not to read the comments, but I don't have the strength to read the comments and disconnect from like taking what these people are saying. Like I can remind myself oh they don't know me I don't know this person but after I read it it's like it's already internalized. It can be poison or it could be yeah ego inflation or the only way to do it is to is to actually disconnect and to like make it a practice of putting your phone in the other room at night and things like that.

But right now I'm in a very, very stimulated season where I am engaging with all the comments because I am about to launch this book and because I am going to release new music and because I do have several different balls in the air for lack of a different term right now that I'm wanting to make sure that I'm engaging with the algorithm because you know how the hell that is and want to make sure that we get the word out about this book to as many people as possible. It's kind of impossible not to be affected by the feedback loop also of the good validation and the, yeah, that's awesome and wow, you're really killing it or blah, blah, blah.

Or the people that are like, wow, that's not it or whatever. It's just really impossible not to. I have to carve out periods of like five days where I'm not on that. And where thankfully I'm in a position where I can ask somebody on my team, can you, if we do need to post things, can you get these up?

And here's what I wanna say and blah, blah, blah. But I need to de-stimulate because I feel, and right now I'm actually vibrating at a certain place because not only am I doing the show, I'm also workshopping an original musical. So from 10 to six, I'm stimulated, I'm singing, and then I'm doing the show, and then I'm doing podcasts or I'm making myself show and then I'm, you know, doing podcasts or I'm, you know, making myself available.

That's not real life necessarily. You know, do you know what I mean? It's a part of real life, but it does make me feel like almost like at a metallic frequency where it feels like drugs. I don't know if you relate to that, but it feels like- You're just going, going, going, going, going, going. Yeah. It feels like you have to implement periods of, I have to implement periods of stopping. Yeah, maybe even to think back to the question that you asked at the beginning, like, do

you know how to let somebody take care of you? Like I, maybe I don't, like, because I just, yeah, don't, I'm like, I need to keep going. I'm like, wait, what do I? So I'm actually looking forward to like, I'm already, I am carving out like. A couple of weeks where I'm just going to at the end of this year. Um, where I'm looking forward to. I'm plugging. I'm plugging.

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What is Joanna like to do when she's just kicking it? What do you like to do for fun? What's your guilty pleasures? I am really into Love Island right now. Okay, we love that. Yeah, I'm really into Love Island. Have you always been into reality TV? No, I'm actually not usually the most into it, but during the pandemic, my mom and I watched, she was living with me for a while,

we watched Love is Blind, and that was great. That's a good one. Which season? The first one. Okay. Do you watch any of the things that you have been on back or have you ever sat down and been like, you know what? I'm just going to put on Aquamarine and just like see.

No. Now he's obsessed with Aquamarine. I'm obsessed. Everyone's obsessed. It's so funny. It is so, I hope that that word isn't offensive. I don't mean it like that, but it's just so funny because it's like just such a silly

movie. But it's such a moment for, you know, it's like a little cult classic Loki. Yes. That's so for girls of our, you know, demographic. How old are you? 25. 25. Okay.

So you're a youngin to have watched this, but it's nice that even like women my age who have daughters or something, they'll play that for their daughters. I'm so excited to show our daughter. What was that experience like? How old were you when I was 14 when we went to Australia and filmed it? Wow. And it was so cool.

That was my first big movie that I had done. I had done like an independent movie before and I had been doing theater before that but that was awesome and it also brought out some insecurities in me because I was like the tomboy. I was playing the tomboy. I was not as skinny as the other girls. I felt like really like next to them. I just remember feeling like that and I was like oh. So from a young age I think we're all kind of like aware of, or we're measuring ourselves up next to other girls. And I was no different and learned a lot on that set,

but I would say I learned even more from the movie that I did right after, which was RV, which is where I played Robin Williams' daughter. And then I- What was that experience like? That was everything because he was such an example of like what a movie star should be because he wasn't just that. He was like the most caring, thoughtful person in the room.

He knew everybody's name on the crew. He would know things about everybody's life and he would ask and he'd remember and then he'd have like insight and he was truly a genius. And it was just great to be around even someone like Kristin Chenoweth, who also is somebody who I admire in her career path and how diversified she is with musical theater and film and television and her recording career and all those different things. So it's just neat to be around such people that are at the top of their game.

And I also got to meet one of my best friends, Zelda, who's Robin's daughter. And we met at the premiere for that movie and we've been like sisters ever since. And she's gone on to direct some music videos for me and she had me sing the theme song for her movie Lisa Frankenstein which just came out and did great so I'm so proud of her. So yeah you just it was a beautiful like unfolding life moment and so I was just like way I had just so much to learn from that set.

Were those back to back? They were back to back. Wow. Yeah. And my record label at the time was really, really mad that I was doing movies because they wanted to have a percentage, like they wanted to make money from that. And oh my God, I hope that no one from the label is watching or whatever, but whatever.

Yeah, that's just, that's what it was. Are you still with the record label today? No. Do you feel this need to like protect what? No, it's not about protection. I felt that I needed to protect myself for a long time. There was some, this is common knowledge. So, and I even alluded to it.

I said it in the book, the president of that record label was sued by another person for he blew up their car and started a rumor online that they had, there were, I'm saying that because that's something that's public knowledge. So it's not like, anyway, scary stuff. I'm sorry, you blew up someone's car. Yeah, yeah. So these were the type of people that I was dealing with.

At what age? I lived in a lot of fear. You were young when you were dealing with them. Yeah, I lived in a lot of fear. So I think I still have residual things of that because I was always told like, we were literally paying people off to stay. But again, I don't want to like bring on

any negative unwarranted attention from them because it's been a long time since I was with them. But I lived in a lot of fear. Wow. Yeah. I know it's weird stuff. That's crazy. Back to love and relationships. You know, I'm someone who's dealt with my affair,

share a heartbreak, I've been engaged before, it hasn't worked out. You're someone who had an engagement and it didn't work out, obviously. And that's a very, I think a very relatable thing that often people feel very alone when it's happening. I think if you get engaged and it doesn't work out, you think, I never thought this would happen to me.

You don't get engaged only to expect it to not work out in a marriage. But how was that experience? I mean, obviously, I feel like it's a loaded question, but obviously a difficult experience. I imagine how did you work through that heartbreak? Well, as shit was hitting the fan, I was like, this was, I was so immature to do this,

but I put something on Instagram. I'm like, took the ring off my left hand and put it on my right. I can't, you know, I shouldn't have done that, but I was so in a heartbreak hallucination. I was so, I felt so self-righteous. I felt so like. Why did you regret saying that?

Because it wasn't mature. I really like to be a person who tries to take the high road. Sure. And it just wasn't my best self. Like in retrospect. Did you say that because you almost felt like he or the situation got the best of you? Like, I mean, I get what you're saying. Like it wasn't mature, but at the end of the day, like sometimes like we're allowed to be down bad and react. You know, I think.

Be down bad and react. Yeah. You know, I'm someone and I feel like I get that sense from you who's done a lot of work and, and their emotional maturity and to be able to, you know, I'm someone, and I feel like I get that sense from you, who's done a lot of work and their emotional maturity and to be able to, you know, I really invest in my emotional resilience. Yes, me too. But yeah, I mean, sometimes like people do shitty things to us. And I think sometimes if you are someone who really invests in your emotional resilience,

I think sometimes we forget to give ourselves grace for when we are human. And that's only why I ask that. I received that, thank you. I think it's just that I, you know, really kind of wanted to be like, I handled this perfectly. Sure. And that's where I could say, I really faltered, you know,

but a hundred percent. And it was that like riding that high vibrating thing of like, I just need to do something and I didn't like that I felt like he hadn't protected us. So I'm like, I'm not protecting shit anymore. So it was kind of something like that. And yeah. What was the ultimate reason for that relationship ending? The ultimate reason for that relationship ending was the trust not being able to be repaired and kind of just being like, I'm gonna take this instance that happened

and not ignore other things that I was not looking at. Things that you overlook when you want something to work and when you're in love and when, you know. When you wanna believe in your partner. Yeah, and it was a wonderful relationship. And, but I kind of just saw the writing on the wall and was like, I'm going to take this opportunity to move forward and move forward alone.

And the truth was that I had jumped from a relationship for that into this one, and I was not ready. So I wondered had I even attracted this relationship from the healthiest place. Like was I even so, so since then I've been really being like, what part did I play in even this undesirable result happening where I don't blame myself for what happened because that wasn't my fault. But certain things certainly were. I imagine that must feel more empowering because at least you're taking control of your situation. Just by at least looking at what you could have controlled, you can recognize that that's not my

fault and still say, well, what role did I play? You know, it's like two things can be true at the same time Like you can be hurt by someone you can be portrayed by someone but like you pointed out you can still look at the situation I mean I could I've done something differently and that's not taking they could taking on the responsibility or the blame but I have found that just makes me feel more in control of my situation because the other end of it is like, can't believe this happened to me. I'm a victim of this situation.

This happened again. I'm attracting the wrong people. And maybe we can attract the wrong people, but at the same time, we can look at why as opposed to just thinking I'm destined for failure and things like that, which I know I've been in that place where you just like get in that self pity mode and Oh yeah, me too. You feel sorry for yourself and you know, if you just, yeah, it just, it just becomes a

almost self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. I mean, we are responsible for the way we frame things and for ultimately for our own happiness. And it just feels so shitty to feel like things happen to you all the time. And I'm just like, no, I mean, I'm kind of co-creating this reality. And so, yeah, like you said, I think that framing it in a certain way ultimately just feels better. And I had to take ownership of the fact that there has been this theme of infidelity in my life ever since I started dating.

My first two major singles, you know, Leave, Get Out, and then on my second album, Too Little, Too Late, in my first, like my first two major singles, you know, leave get out and then on my second album, too little too late, we're about cheating. And it's really weird how I had never had a boyfriend then I was, you know, 13 and then 15. So it's very strange. And I almost thought I might've brought that onto me in my first relationship when I was like 15. Cause then I got cheated on and And I'm like, oh my

God, like I thought I would never, and then I swore, well, I'm never ever letting anybody hurt me again. Then I cheated in my next relationship. And then it was always this back and forth through my history of dating, of there being a betrayal of trust. And then through therapy, I realized that I had been betraying myself my entire life. I was not safe within myself. I could not trust myself. I did not keep any of my promises to myself or, you know, I would be just very here and there and everywhere with I could be wishy washy and just swayed. But there's this reoccurring theme that I just really refuse to be subscribed to anymore.

So I think I'm just too grown to stick around and act like I was born yesterday. Do you compartmentalize? Yes. I do too. Yeah, don't we all? I don't know if in therapy it was explained. My therapist was like, how phenomenal that you came up with this mechanism of how to survive though. It's actually amazing that you, so instead of being like, I make the worst decisions, blah, blah, blah,

it's like, you found a way to feel good. We're all just trying to feel good and trying to survive and get our needs met and not feel pain because most of us are in a lot of pain. And when my father did die nine years ago, and when I had just wanted him to choose to prioritize me, and I didn't understand the nature of addiction, and when I just wanted him to just fuck and cut it out

and just stop being an addict, you know, but he couldn't, that was really hard to accept. And then I wanted, you know, validation from other men. And then, you know, then I had certain, dealt with that in my career, and then with relationships and all that stuff. There was a point, and I, you've talked about your mother and, you know, the mental struggles that she had

and the constant, like, suicide, you know, conversations she had with you. And, I mean, your mother, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were young when kind of all of these mental struggles and talks of suicide were being brought to you. Oh yeah. Yeah. My mom has always struggled.

And that's something that I, I thought it was, I thought that I brought on her mental, emotional struggles. I don't wanna like diagnose her. And my mom's also down to talk about this stuff, which I'm really proud of her and I'm grateful for. That is great, yeah. I'm really, really grateful.

It speaks to her growth. Yeah, I mean. I thought that it was, yeah, something that I brought on because I was so terrible and because I was so selfish and all these things, because she told me that I brought on because I was so terrible and because I was so selfish and you know, all these things because she told me that I was. But my mom had been, you know, suicidal through her life. And so when my like aunts and uncles shared that with me, when I had told them that I had to like talk her off a ledge when I was on tour or when I had to like call our priest

and have her have him talk to her and calm her down and things like that you know when I'm 13 14 years old and I'm there by myself and I'm on tour and I'm doing these press obligations and I'm hyperventilating in a corner and she's you know after I've I've locked the windows and closed the doors and made sure that she promised me that she wouldn't you know and it's too much was too much. And I thought that it was my fault. I internalized that for a long time. Even thinking about it, I feel my throat tightening, I feel my heart closing. It was a hinge point in my life. Like when she, when I was 17 and I was, she no longer wanted to be in the music industry, but I did.

I thought that, well, she was managing me at the time, but she hated the music industry, she didn't want to be involved anymore. I said, okay, so I'll find another manager. And she was like, you're, you want to throw me out. You want to get rid of me. I'm like, I want you to be my mom. I want us to be a family again. And she's like, no, you, you always choose everybody over me, blah, blah, blah.

And then she, you know, wrote me a, she wrote a suicide note, and she was prepared to do it. And I found her and kind of intercepted. And I was in the studio at the time. And I had this like, intuition that something was going on. And I needed to check on her because I was recording going on and I needed to check on her because I was recording at a place where there was also a hotel, it was in Vegas. And that's one of the most scariest moments of my life. And the compartmentalization, that's probably where it, I mean, I'm sure it began before then, but of just like rocking her and making her promise me that she'd stay on earth with me and then being like, you know, it was just really disgustingly painful for both of us, really painful for

her, really painful for me. And then knowing that these everybody in the studio and the label was waiting for me to get back to the studio, none of them knew what was going on. And I also wanted to protect her because they all hated her too, because she was trying to take me out, she wanted to take me out of the music industry. It was a very deeply, deeply confusing time. And that's part of why I wanted to write this because I'm like, what happened? What was even going on?

Yeah. Then you left your mom in that situation and you go back to them and you're like, okay, let's go. And you've like compartmentalized that and you're ready to just like put on this face to like make other people happy. Yeah. And I didn't know, I didn't know what the right thing to do was. I didn't know should I, should I just like dedicate my life to making sure my mom is

well? Cause I will. Is that what I'm supposed to do? Then the rest of my extended family is telling me, no, save yourself. She, you can't, you know, she's not well, you know, let her blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, and they're like, you need to emancipate yourself. Neither of your parents should be in your life. Like it was just really confusing. And I wanted to, I wanted to emancipate yourself, neither of your parents should be in your life. Like, it was just really confusing. And I wanted to, I wanted to emancipate myself.

Of course I thought I knew everything that was right for me, you know, particularly at 17. Well, you've been taking care of yourself for- For a certain, to a certain extent. I mean, I think I kind of stopped being parented at 12. My mom just felt like she, like her rights were kind of taken away when other people stepped in.

She felt like her balls were cut off essentially as my mom. So I feel really sad for her. I have a lot of empathy, I guess would be the word, now, whereas I was just like, you should have just put your foot down for things that you, you know, if you wanted me to stay in school, then you should have, but it's way easier said than done. And I think my mom did an amazing job.

When did you realize it wasn't your fault? For her struggles? I would say after my dad died, and again, they weren't together, but I really dove into therapy even more after he passed. And I had to accept that if my dad could die, that my mom could die too. And that I, that I won't have my parents. Even just like, just the thought of them being there is just comforting.

Even if I don't get exactly what I want out of that relationship dynamic all the time. I had to be like, I couldn't save my dad. I can't save my mom. It wasn't my fault that he passed. It wasn't that I could have done anything more. And I think it's like programs like Al-Anon and AA that are really helpful as well as a community and of talking to other people that that grew up with. Families who. Are struggling with addiction and stuff like that. Talking to other people realizing that I actually my story wasn't that uncommon and.

And yeah, it was a lot of people, my therapists, you know, I have had wonderful romantic partners in my life and they helped to support me through different years and seeing different parental dynamics with them, for example, like my partner's parents and being like, oh, like, you don't feel the weight of the world on your shoulders. You don't feel responsible for your parents' finances or well-being or staying alive. Maybe I don't need to. Maybe I shouldn't. We talk a lot on our show about family dynamics. And I think it's a very comforting feeling sometimes just to remind yourself that whatever your parents did Good or bad that they probably did their best they could 100% you know and a lot of our parents are deeply flawed and probably a lot of that is comes from their childhood and

generational trauma and things like that and Exactly. Yeah, and everyone's family is different But yeah, when you sometimes just realize that maybe like for all their flaws, they probably did the best they could. I feel very blessed to know that both my parents really love me. Like not everybody can say that. I think there are some people who do not feel loved by their parents and don't, can't say that their parents

did the best they could because they sucked or whatever. But like my parents didn't suck as human beings. They're like lovely human beings who were in a lot of pain or you know, and so am I. And we deal with it differently. And I'm grateful that I don't have a kid yet because I certainly would not have been ready anytime before now. I think about that a lot. You know what I mean? Yeah, I've always wanted to be a dad. My desire to be a good dad would have been

as just as strong as it is now, but I think about, you know, had I become a father in my earlier years, when I thought I was gonna be a father, I wouldn't have been as good. You know, I just, I would have, you know, the effort would have been there, but I just, I know I would, I'm way more empathetic now.

I'm way more patient now. I'm less stubborn, you know, like I'm, I just, I just think I would have talked to my kids differently. And again, I would have the passion that the effort would have been there, but I think the execution of how I am as a father would be much different. And so I am grateful as long as I had to wait that I waited as long as I did. So you became a father later in life

than you thought you would? Oh, much later, yeah. Like when did you think you'd have a kid? Oh, I mean, I have 10 brothers and sisters. 10? Yeah, so I come from a very traditional conservative family. And so when I was 18, 19, in my head, I'm like, I'm gonna have a wife and two or three kids

and a BMW and I'm 25. No, like in my head, like early mid 20s. But when you're 18, that seems so old. And then you get there and you're like, what the fuck's going on with my life? But yeah, I expected to be settled down in my early 20s. And that obviously didn't happen the way I had planned it, but it worked out, you know, obviously.

But just, I think about how I would have been as a father. Like sometimes I'm like, damn, I don't know if I would have been as, I mean, I think I would have been fine. I would have loved my kid, but. It would have been different. I think I would have traumatized them a little bit, you know, in a way, you know, just not like in a abusive way

or anything like that, but like the way we talk to our kids or how we communicate our frustrations and, you know, these little things. Like, yeah, it's a thing. We all have trauma from our childhood. You don't have to have shitty parents to have trauma from your childhood. Exactly. You just have to have, it's just living life, you know. No one is exempt from that.

And I'm sure people have said to you guys like, you got to start saving for your kid's therapy eventually because that's just the time that we live in and probably will continue No one is exempt from that. And I'm sure people have said to you guys, like, you gotta start saving for your kids therapy eventually because that's just the time that we live in and probably will continue to live in that we just discuss our emotions more and wanna work through them and be responsible with them and be more introspective and more relationally responsible and all that stuff.

So yeah, inevitably, I think parents are going to always traumatize their children in some way, but I guess there's certainly levels to it. Yeah. As someone who's worked a lot on their mental health, I imagine if I asked you if you had any regrets, you'd probably say not really because I meant, you know, you look at you right now, you have an ultra successful career, you seem very at peace. But if I had asked you, as far as your professional career, if you could go back and just make one decision you made,

you could make a different decision, what would that be? Hmm, let me think about that for a second. One do-over. Yeah, one do-over. I mean, I would redo every single time that I betrayed my gut instinct and that I listened to somebody else who said that they knew better for me

than what I actually like. Anytime I put out a song that I didn't like, that's never worth it. It's whack. It's whack. It's not worth it. It doesn't work. I mean, how many different ways can I say the same thing? It doesn't work if you don't like it.

That's what I would say to anybody in the music industry. And I'm glad that it's a different time because I just, and maybe I'm wrong. It's not like I'm in the center of it, you know, at all, but it seems as though the major labels can't really do that same thing where they'll be like, uh, actually, no, they probably can. But where it's like, this is the only song

that we'll put out on you. I had that so many times where it's like, I have all these songs recorded and they're like, well, you need to put out this song with this big producer because we also have his label imprint on our thing. So we're getting a percentage of that. And the songwriters, we have their publishing and blah, blah, blah.

All these like stupid political things that I don't care about and have nothing to do with the art or like the vibes. I would just not do that because it's not worth it. And I would be, I think liking the work that you put out is just so, so important. It really chips away at your self-trust

and your just sense of anything. Is there one you put out that? There's so many. Which one do you? The first one that comes to mind is a song called When Love Hurts. It's a song called When Love Hurts because I don't think that love should hurt first of all.

But I'll tell you, desperate times make you do desperate things. And I was so desperate to put out music because it had been so long. I had fought, I had been in a lawsuit with my previous record label, the one that I was afraid of that I was mentioning to you. And as soon as I got out of that deal, I was like, I need to, you know, to start putting things out.

Then I signed to another label and then there were musical chairs and then the person who signed me there left and went to another thing. And then I was still there. And then they were like, well, this is the only song we'll put out on you. And I'm like, well, it's been almost 10 years since I've released something officially. Yes, I had put out Marvin's Room.

Yes, I had done other things. Just literally stay afloat. And to let my fans know that I wasn't dead. But I betrayed my, even things that I liked because I was desperate to put something out. And I felt like, well, these people have had success my even things that I liked because I was desperate to put something out. And I felt like, well, these people have had success for more instances of success than I had.

So I might as well give it a shot. But I ended up completely forgetting what it is that I liked at all, because I was just really trying to make everybody happy about myself. So long winded answer, but I also, yes. I don't live with regret, but I also do regret things in my personal life because any instance in which I've hurt somebody else, I regret that. Even if I, yes, I was doing my best at the time. And I definitely talk about that in Over the

Influence, the pain that I was in, whether it's in my career and I wanted to distract myself from it, that's what led me to cheat on, you know, a love of my life and to send myself down a spiral. And perhaps subconsciously I did it because I was so despondent and depressed and feeling I didn't know what was going on in my career that I'm like, hmm, what can I do to fuck everything up even worse? Let me do a horrific thing. And maybe it'll make me feel like I'm even more in control of what's going on in my life

because I feel so out of control. I don't know why I did it, but that is something that I can easily say. I regret that. Even if I can understand why, it doesn't matter. I hate the fact that I am the villain in someone's story and that I've been a hinge point in someone's life where they then had to recover from me. That's, that breaks my heart.

And it's just, it sucks, but it's reality. Is that what ended that relationship? A lot of things ended that particular relationship. That was, that was a massive part of it. It's hard to recover from that. Pride is a real thing. And also just being like, you can't do this to me. I get it.

Sometimes you just got to let it go. But I think it's hard for men. Do you think he knows you're sorry? He knows. I wrote a whole album about it. I've seen him. He knows. And I think the most loving thing

that I can do for him as a friend and someone who truly loves him is just send him love through the ether and write letters sometimes and be like, oh you'd think this was... and never send them. But that's what I've learned through maturity because for a while I was like, no I need to make this right and blah blah blah, blah. Sometimes you just can't. In your book, Over the Influence, you talk about someone telling you

that you need to file for bankruptcy in your 20s. And you being like, no, but I'm not bankrupt. Like what? My earnest ass. I'm like, but I'm not. They're like, this is what rich people do. They were trying to show me. So what is that story? Can you talk about that? Sure. Yeah.

So it was my lawyer at the time who comes from a very wealthy, successful family. And he was like, there's this loophole that would make the contract that you're in. Because a record deal is a service contract. It's a personal service contract and it's legally binding. And I signed it at 12 years old, but it was ratified and I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12.

And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12.

And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. And I signed it at the age of 12. contract that you're in because a record deal is a service contract. It's a personal service contract and it's legally binding. And I signed it at 12 years old, but it was ratified by the state of New York and a Guardian ad litem and all these different things that make it ironclad. It doesn't just expire when you're 18. It has all these things that make it so it doesn't just end. I was signed to a seven album deal that because they weren't putting, they didn't have distribution anymore. So they couldn't put out more albums on me. So I couldn't get out of the deal ever. It was never good. They just weren't going to release me. They were just going to have me sit

on a shelf, but they weren't even doing anything. So my lawyer was like, the way that you could get out of this is by filing bankruptcy. It would make your, any personal service contracts that you're in null and void because it'd say, there's no way for me to make, make a living or to do blah, blah, blah. But because I come from a working class, New England background that didn't compute to me. You know, my family was already worried about me

and they're just, what are they doing? What is your they doing? What is your label doing? And this is your prime and you gotta do something. And bankruptcy was just not the thing that anybody thought I should do. So I didn't, but I wish in retrospect that I had because I think it would have been a cleaner break

as opposed to then finding lawyers who litigators who took my case on contingency and instead like put the full court press on my label to be like they found this loophole that said you can't hold a minor to a personal service contract for longer than seven years in state of New York blah blah blah but now I'm still paying a percentage to those lawyers tent you know over ten years later because they did it on contingency in state of New York, blah, blah, blah. But now I'm still paying a percentage to those lawyers, 10, you know, over 10 years later, uh, because they did it on contingency. So now they still get 5% of everything that I make, even though I made no money from getting out of that deal.

It's kind of a nightmare. That is a nightmare. It's, it sucks. Oh my God. That's something that nobody knows. You really had to fight for your professional independence. Just to even just, not even just independence, just to be able to be a professional, just to be able to make a living and own my voice again. So yeah, I definitely had to fight.

And I think that that's why also I didn't have the fight creatively in me anymore. I had fought in so many different ways. And then I felt like I was fighting my mom and I was fighting even my manager. Like I just was in such a fight that then I became totally despondent. And then I just didn't feel anything for a very long time. I mean, I talk all the time about our energy is an infinite and our thoughts take a lot of energy. And when we have, when we're fighting all these different battles and all these different fronts, you know, our creative energy can go by the wayside, you know, and the things we love to do the most sometimes get the least amount of our energy. Definitely.

I was, I realized that I was a very good worker, really good at just putting one foot in front of the next, of putting blinders on and just pushing through, but I really was not an artist. I was just doing things for a long time. I just felt like that's what I was supposed to be doing. So like getting in touch with just even have you guys done the artist's way? Like it sounds like there's this book called The Artist's Way, which is like how to kind of reignite that inner artist within you, whether you consider yourself artists or not, we all really kind of have that within us. It's about like the first thing you do in the morning is you write three pages of continuous nonstop words

on the page and you don't take the pen off and you just kind of word vomit. And it's a way to just get in touch with that inner voice and also to take yourself, take your artist on a date. Like I took myself to the opera and just completely by myself and started taking solo trips and just seeing what do I like outside of everything else that anybody had told me to like or told me would advance my career or told me, you know, would this is the right move for your trajectory or whatever.

It was deep. It was really, really confusing from a young age to be have so many cooks in the kitchen when I think it's important for a developing mind to develop, to have the space to develop. That's why I wouldn't recommend that people get into the music industry. Um, at all. No, I don't mean like if you love it, you love it, but I would not recommend that kids get involved ever.

It's just too, you have too soft of a brain. There's too many things going on energetically and in every other way. I know we have to wrap up here and I just have one last random question, but is your uncle really triple H? No. I read that on, okay, good.

I read that on Wikipedia. It says that on Wikipedia. Wait, no, no, no. Okay, I wait for a second. I forgot, but no, his name is Leveque, right? I think we have the same last name. No, he's not, but that would be very cool. Okay.

That'd be cool. Wikipedia. And that would have been a great entry point into entertainment. I was like, really? I don't see the resemblance. No, we've never met. All right, well, case closed.

Case closed. Joanna, thanks so much for your time. It's been such a pleasure talking with you. You guys are such a joy and just what a beautiful dynamic you have and thank you for having me on. We really appreciate it. And make sure you go check out

and get a pre-order Joanna's book over the influence. Thank you. When's it come out? September 17th. September 17th, you can pre-order now anywhere you pre-order your books. I'm assuming it's on Audible, everywhere. Yes, yes, I did that.

Anywhere you get your books. That's where it is. Over the influence. That's right. Again, Joanna, I can't thank you enough. You're such an inspiration. Congratulations on your amazing career and your future success,

which I'm sure we're excited to see what becomes of that. And I'm sure it's going to be wonderful, but thank you so much. It's been such an honor for both of us and we're so excited to have had you and thanks so much. I appreciate you guys. Thank you. And thank you guys for listening. I love you. We'll see you next time. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.