The Viall Files - E814 - Golden Bachelorette’s Jack & the Legal Breakdown of Diddy, Devin, and Shannon w/ Emily D Baker

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Starting point is 00:01:27 What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vox Files Reality Recap Edition. I am your host, Nick, joined by my wife, Natalie. We're here in Nashville. We have a special guest today. The Household is streaming live from LA. Thanks for waking up with us. And our special guest today, the one and only, you probably have seen her online, especially

Starting point is 00:02:02 if you are a fan of any type of true crime or kind of you're into like legal stuff. Emily Baker is with us. Emily and I met actually this past week. I was in New York for the YouTube Creator Summit. YouTube Creator Summit. Who knew? It was a whole thing.

Starting point is 00:02:21 Who knew? Yeah. Apparently YouTube thinks we're Emily and I are kind of important. I mean, we're kind of a big deal. Yeah. So very excited about. Apparently YouTube thinks Emily and I are kind of important. We're kind of a big deal. Yeah. So very excited about that. And then Emily and I were talking. We were roller skating, obviously. I haven't roller skated in a while.

Starting point is 00:02:30 Nick was roller skating. I was roller skating. He was 900 feet tall. I have not roller skated since COVID. Turns out, still got it, which felt really good. Where was the opportunity to roller skate? Was there just like, it was at a rink? Some place in Brooklyn.

Starting point is 00:02:41 It was called Xanadu and they did a rhinestone rodeo party. What I love is that it was like 150 top creators from all different types of content from the US, UK and Canada and everybody was down. But also YouTube brought in like make your own cowboy hats and like rhinestone, bedazzled everything. It was wild. There were Slurpees.

Starting point is 00:03:03 It was- The Mr. Freezies. Yeah, they It was amazing. The Mr. Freezies. Yeah, they were really good. The Mr. Freezies, which I had the mix of the wild cherry and the blue raspberry. Ooh. Very good. I also had the same mix at the game this weekend.

Starting point is 00:03:14 You wanna skip over the video you sent me while roller skating? I was just letting my wife know where I was. What did he send you? He sent me a three second video of him going incredibly slow while roller skating. It was just my feet. I was just letting her know where I was.

Starting point is 00:03:29 I was letting her know that I opted in for the roller skating. I just responded with, Ick, love you, miss you. Because it wasn't like fast. It wasn't like a trick. It was just like, and that was it, three swipes.

Starting point is 00:03:43 This wasn't like a flex. It wasn't like, hey wife was it. Three swipes. This wasn't like a flex. It wasn't like, Hey wife, check out how hot I am. This was like, I went roller skating. YouTube actually brought in professional roller skaters. They had people full on like dancing. There were like three or four to get the vibe going to get people on the skating rink. They didn't realize that I was going to be there and that I'm already was. I was planning on tearing it up.

Starting point is 00:04:07 Um, I was a little pissed about that because I, they were so, they're so much better than they were like dancers. And so like, you thought you were going to be the best. I was, I was hoping. Yeah. The professionals definitely not. Yeah. So I'm sorry.

Starting point is 00:04:19 It's okay. Yeah. But I had a good time. You're the best in my eyes. Thank you. It was an interesting event. You know, so Emily and I were roller skating. And then I was like, when we were at this convention, I'm like, I fucking know this

Starting point is 00:04:30 person. I know who she is. Where do I know her from? The internet. The internet. But more specifically, when we covered, if you don't know, Justin and Sierra weren't with the Vilephiles there. But when the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial went on, we obviously covered it here at the

Starting point is 00:04:43 Vilephiles. Emily, being the lawyer that she is, I mean, if you are online, if you're interested, Emily is talking about all different types of true crime cases and things like that. She covered it extensively as well. It's like, oh, that's where I know. And then I thought, holy shit, there's so much going on in the pop culture, reality TV world that I think we could use Emily's expertise. And I was like, well, we're in Nashville.

Starting point is 00:05:04 Emily lives in Nashville. And I was like, well, we're in Nashville. Emily lives in Nashville. And I was like, you gotta come and hang out with us and record, so we are going to do that. I mean, the timing worked perfectly because you had talked, we had talked briefly about Nashville and then I'm like, wait, you mean like tomorrow you're going to be in Nashville for the game? And I was going to be covering a trial out of Florida

Starting point is 00:05:23 all day today, gavel to gavel, and they had a huge conflict and the trial got put over at the last minute. So my team was like, we're keeping the day clear. And the Nick's like, so what are you doing Monday? I'm like, actually. Nothing. I'm running.

Starting point is 00:05:36 What are you waiting for us? What are you waiting for us? Well, obviously lots to get into. We have the Devon of it all that's really kind of hit mainstream recently. Very, very scary, honestly, story, very sad story. I thought we'd get Emily's expertise on all things restraining orders. And then obviously, Emily, she watches some Bravo, a little OC.

Starting point is 00:05:58 And then we obviously have been covering this whole Shannon lawsuit, which I just feel like I have so many questions and don't understand some of the inter like the details. I can't say inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter

Starting point is 00:06:16 inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter

Starting point is 00:06:24 inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter inter answers but pop culture reality is the thing that that brought me into covering law on the internet. I love that. Well a little background about Emily she was what are you assistant district attorney? Deputy district attorney for the county of LA for over 10 years. That's crazy. You just know you've got some stories. You've seen some stuff. We've definitely seen some stuff. What's the craziest story you can share? Oh god God. The craziest story I can share. There are so many stories. When I was a young DA, look, my generation of DAs were very highly influenced by the Aliexpress era

Starting point is 00:06:55 of what a lawyer is supposed to be. So before Aspinal Fusion, I was still rocking very high heels at work. My friend was in trial with a guy who was in there on like nine or ten armed robberies and was looking at like multiple life counts and what have you. I was going to file something. As I'm trying to leave where I'm filing, my very tiny heel gets caught in the cuff of my very wide cuff pants.

Starting point is 00:07:21 It was the early 2000s. I thought it was amazing. And I start to fall onto this defendant who's uncuffed sitting in the chair because he's getting ready for trial. The bailiffs looked like they were ready to kill me for tripping and falling on this defendant because they are worried about a security issue. I am worried that this is where I get like held hostage because he is getting ready to go to trial. And he grabs my shoulders as I am falling like face first

Starting point is 00:07:46 on this man, doesn't even grab my boobs, which actually I was fairly surprised about in custody, grabs my shoulders and is like, ma'am, are you okay? And like tries to push me back up. The bailiffs start yelling at me. This gentleman is just like, I've got you. And I'm like, well, thanks. I appreciate it.

Starting point is 00:08:03 I'm like, you know, I was looking at the other DA. I'm like, I know there's all these armed robberies, but he seems like a decent dude. Well behaved in court, but I was blown away. But we had, I had police protection on my house at different cases, which was kind of surreal. We had celebrities in and out of one of the courthouses I worked at, including Lindsay Lohan.

Starting point is 00:08:24 That was probably the busiest that that particular courthouse was with all of the news media. It was not what we were used to going to work. So I have a lot of empathy for the lawyers in these high profile trials where the outside of the courthouse is swamped because I've been through the outside of the courthouse being swamped.

Starting point is 00:08:37 Wow. Like swamped. That's crazy. I mean, just the DA office in LA has got to be, do you think it's, what's crazier, the New York one or the LA one? I don't know. LA County covers so much space. Like the LA County DA's office,

Starting point is 00:08:50 you guys know LA, goes from Long Beach, all the way up to Antelope Valley and all the way out to Pomona. So we have such a wide variety of cases. New York is more insular, but like Southern District of New York, like the feds in New York, they just take all the crazy shit and make it theirs.

Starting point is 00:09:05 Like the Diddy case and whatever, they like kind of reamed supreme in the federal world. So I think of the craziest prosecution offices, Southern District New York meets with the rest of like the AUSAs and are like, if there is a way to bring this to New York, we're bringing it to New York. That's where Jen Shaw was as well.

Starting point is 00:09:23 Like we're bringing all of these massive cases to New York. We're bringing the big celebrity this to New York. We're bringing it to New York. That's where Jen Shaw was as well. We're bringing all of these massive cases to New York. We're bringing the big celebrity cases to New York. The R. Kelly case, other cases. So they're like, we're gonna bring all of this here. Wow. That's wild. Well, I'm glad we have Emily here. She mentioned the Diddy case.

Starting point is 00:09:37 Before we get into it all, we have Jack, Golden Batch Jack with us later this episode. Mr. You Loved Him episode one. He's with us today, joining us later. Joining us on Thursday for Reality Recap, we have Elizabeth Wagmeister of CNN. She broke, I think she broke. She's been heavily involved in the Diddy story.

Starting point is 00:09:55 She broke the news. She's joining us again to give us an update on all things Diddy, what's going on in the case over the weekend. It's crazy. Along with Mary Bonnet from Selling Sunset is with us. She's got a new book out. She'll be joining us as well. That's Thursday. And we have a special Going Deeper this week. We're re-releasing the Whitney Rose episode from Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. The podcast, the podcast. We're releasing the podcast. So if you haven't listened to it or you have and you want to refresh your memory. On what pissed Lisa Barlow off? Yeah, I mean, the entire drama of apparently this in season is

Starting point is 00:10:28 catapulted from our episode. So yay to us. So if you want to listen to that, that would be out again on Wednesday. And then we have a really recap on Thursday. Now, before we get into all the stuff we're getting into with Emily, just congratulations to the household for going to an O this week. I went on to so the the Broncos of Denver and the Giants of New York triumphant in this week's matchups and I lost.

Starting point is 00:10:55 I was on to. So you guys are now leading. I remember when I said we're going to go with whoever we were going to go with. And you're like, that's a bad choice. I wouldn't do that. And I was like, that's a bad choice. I wouldn't do that. And I was like, you know what? We're trusting the buys. Two and four for this season. You guys are three and three.

Starting point is 00:11:11 Yeah. All right. All right, well, we'll be back on Thursday making more picks for the upcoming week. All right, let's get in. Are you filing the duty case at all? Yes, I was in court for the arraignment because I was in New York for the YouTube event and I was there a little

Starting point is 00:11:25 early for other work stuff and my phone started blowing up. I was prepping another podcast episode to catch up on all the baby reindeer stuff. So I'm prepping another podcast episode and my phone blows up and they're like they arrested Diddy. When the raids went down I was like oh they're working a large case. I said this arrest is going to take some time. They're going to have so much digital evidence which they do. So I wasn't expecting it to go down while I was in New York. I figured it would probably be before the end of the year, but it was a little earlier than I thought. And I was like, wait, they're arraigning him tomorrow. They call it presentment in the federal court. But I'm like, they're arraigning him tomorrow. I'm

Starting point is 00:11:57 going to court. I have no like court clothes. I was in Adidas and a leather jacket. And I was like, you know what? I'm media pool. I'm not like in court for me having a case. Yeah. It was wild. Ran into some law nerds in the courtroom that the federal court. Did he get brought in? Brian. So you saw him?

Starting point is 00:12:12 Yeah. Or, yeah, what was he arrested for? Like, what did they catch him on? They were arresting him on the indictment. So the feds will take everything to a grand jury first and they'll go to the grand jury and be like, Hey, we've got all of this. What do you think? Is it more likely that this person did the things we're saying or not? Grand juries indict almost everyone, and they can ask questions. Grand juries can send out subpoenas and be like, we're curious. We'd like more information. This grand jury

Starting point is 00:12:37 sent out 300 subpoenas for documents. I love a grand jury that's like, no, give us the tea. Like, no, give us more tea. Like, they're getting all the phone records and everything. They indicted him on the three count indictment. That stays sealed. And then you can be arrested because you've been charged. So they arrested him on that indictment. His lawyers brought him to New York to turn him in. But if he gets turned in, then they

Starting point is 00:12:58 can't ask for him to stay in custody, no bail. So the US attorneys are like, we're not interested in you bringing him in. We're going to go get him. And then they can search his hotel room subsequent to the arrest. in custody, no bail. So the US attorneys are like, we're not interested in you bringing him in. We're gonna go get him. And then they can search his hotel room subsequent to the arrest. And they did that and found,

Starting point is 00:13:11 they say what they presume to be narcotics. Those are still out for drug testing. But they brought him in and then they brought him into court and he's got his hands behind his back like he's cuffed. And he goes to sit down and just takes his hands out and puts them on the table. I'm like, you're not even cuffed, man.

Starting point is 00:13:24 He's in like gray sweatpants with like a stripe. I don't know if the deputies told him to keep his hands behind his back or not, but I was like, you're walking like you're cuffed and you're not even a chance. And it was a long detention hearing. I remember hearing something, I don't know where I heard it, but that one of the big differences between being tried

Starting point is 00:13:45 in the federal court versus state is that the feds don't lose, ever. Is that accurate? The feds rarely lose. They pick and choose their cases very carefully. So there were times at the LADA's office where the feds would have a case they'd be working and they're like, you know what,

Starting point is 00:14:01 I don't think we're gonna go after this one. It's not big enough, it's not enough money, not enough witnesses. And they'll bring it to the state level prosecutors and be like, do you guys want to do you guys want to prosecute this? So the feds pick their cases very carefully and they shoot their shot. They wait until they have their case almost ready for trial before they indict it. They've got resources, they've got money, they've got time, different state by state, different state agencies don't have the Department of Homeland Security, the CIA, the FBI, they don't have,

Starting point is 00:14:27 even the Secret Service sometimes helps work these cases. State doesn't just have those resources. The feds do not mess around. So when the feds did that raid when it was Homeland Security, I'm like, oop, you are in trouble. Yeah, and then something about his, he was denied for bail twice. Yes. So what does that mean to you? It's not a surprise. And then something about his, he was denied for bail twice.

Starting point is 00:14:45 So what does that mean to you? It's not a surprise. One of the charges has a no bail presumption. It means that if you come in on that charge, the assumption by the court is that you don't get bail and you've got to prove, really it goes up to the defendant to prove that they deserve bail. And so I wasn't surprised that he didn't get bail.

Starting point is 00:15:02 What I was surprised about is that he offered over $50 million for his bail. Like that tells you how much he's like, get me out of jail. He doesn't wanna be there at all. $50 million, but. If you're a billionaire, I'm pretty sure he's like a billionaire.

Starting point is 00:15:16 What's $50 million? What's $50 million? And that's exactly what the prosecutor said. They're like, right, the amount of money doesn't matter because his influence is so great. There was huge concern that he will get to victims and witnesses and they had all his phones tapped.

Starting point is 00:15:29 I mean, you know, Biggie was telling you more money, more problems, phones tapped in the basement. Diddy's phones were tapped. So they knew the calls that he was making. And as those civil lawsuits were dropping, he's calling people up. Like, are you still on my side trying to see who's still loyal?

Starting point is 00:15:44 And they use that against him to great effect, I think, in front of the court, saying he's going to reach out to all these victims and witnesses. He's been doing it on his phone. He's been doing it on other people's phones. Do you think those calls will be released to the public? Not until this goes to trial. Not at all. Do you think it'll be televised like the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial? Sadly, the feds do not allow audio or video recording in court.

Starting point is 00:16:06 A lot of media outlets have fought with them, sued them, tried to take them up to the Supreme Court. The feds lock down their court, unless you're sitting in the real uncomfortable pews in court, that's all you're gonna get. But there's some great independent media outlets that operate in New York that go to court and live tweet out what's happening in court.

Starting point is 00:16:23 And so we're gonna be relying on that. I suppose maybe, especially with public figures or celebrities, the lack of media, I would assume that the feds would be cautious around just the influence celebrities have, the court of public opinion. They probably wanna control the atmosphere. So why would they televise it, air it and things like that?

Starting point is 00:16:43 Yeah, I always have a very skeptical wonder if because where most of your political trials end up are in federal court, that Congress is like, no, we're cool with it. Like, there would be, there but for the grace of God go I. So the federal courts have always been locked down. I like having courts open. I think people should see what their courts are doing, what their judges are doing, how cases are getting tried, how strong the evidence is or isn't. I think it helps people understand the system

Starting point is 00:17:06 much better than like sitting in civics. You understand more about law watching Johnny Depp and Amber Heard than you do in high school. Yeah, no, truly. What did, there was something about like, he was on suicide watch or something? That's standard. When you bring, especially when you bring somebody in

Starting point is 00:17:20 from out of custody and take them into custody, it's pretty standard that they get designated on a watch, like every defendant. It's not because he said something, did something, it's because it is a big transition going from out of custody to in custody. Okay. And what does suicide watch mean?

Starting point is 00:17:36 Are they in isolation? Do they just like check all their crevices and make sure they don't have anything capable of? Well, that happens to everybody. They are more isolated. They are watched more closely on the rotations. They make sure that they can't fashion anything into something that they could harm themselves with.

Starting point is 00:17:53 And, you know, it really is just a higher level of observation in those initial adjustment periods. I imagine it is a shocking adjustment for people to go in. Did you guys ever watch Dance Moms? When Abby Lee Miller went in and she went to the prison consultant and the prison consultant's like, they're gonna search you every which way. There's a reason people go to those consultants

Starting point is 00:18:15 because it is a huge shock going from out of custody to in custody. A lot of the conversation I see on the internet right now is I believe when he was first searched, they talk about all this videotape that he had so he like he has all these crazy sex parties he's being arrested for trafficking I think they found like 700 dildos and all these towels and all the baby oil all this crazy shit but the videos I think a lot of people are speculating obviously did he's highly

Starting point is 00:18:42 influential you see all these pictures on the internet with heads of state, presidents, some of your biggest A-list celebrities. I think there's a lot of speculation about who's next. Are anyone going to be revealed to have also done something wrong? My question to you is like, let's say for example, I got invited to a sex party and I was like, all right, I'm going to go to a sex party. And I thought it was, you know, weird, but legal, right? So I walk in and here's just a bunch of people, it's big orgy, whatever. And let's say I have sex with someone.

Starting point is 00:19:11 Like, is it just an optics thing? Like if these celebrities, how is the feds gonna determine like who's just at a party being a freak, not realizing there's a legal shit going on versus people who are co-conspirators and involved and you know, there's, I think there's illegal shit going on versus people who are co-conspirators and involved and you know there's I think there's speculations about miners potentially be involved and things like that so how does that get played out from what you can tell? So separating any conversation about miners out of

Starting point is 00:19:38 it first, assuming everyone is an adult and somebody shows up and assumes this is all consensual and doesn't know behind the scenes, is it a bad look? Yes. Will the government probably want to talk to them and have a conversation about what they know? Yes. Where it goes from there depends on digital evidence. Do they have emails, text messages, or anything to indicate that they knew it was non-consensual,

Starting point is 00:20:00 that they knew that people were being trapped there and not allowed to leave. Did any of the women or men that were there as performers indicate that they weren't there willingly? That becomes the bigger question. That tightens in on his circle. That's why this is charged under the racketeering because they're saying not only did he involve himself in these things, but others in his organization were bribing hotels, paying people off, paying to have security camera footage removed. Those people that were more active in it become the more inner circle. I imagine the feds have talked to a lot of them and are trying to figure out who's going to work with the state and who's not. Because with the racketeering that started to get after like your old school traditional mafias because the person at the top isn't the one doing anything they're the one directing it so

Starting point is 00:20:48 the racketeering act was to get the person at the top that didn't actually do stuff but asked everybody else and organized everyone else to do it so will we see the people that were helping him cover this get in trouble it depends on if they work with the state or not and it depends on what deals they take I think there will be deals in this case. And then it's who knew what and who was covering for him. This went on for so long. People are covering for him.

Starting point is 00:21:12 And I imagine there's a lot of people scared of what's on all of those tapes, like security camera footage from all the Hamptons white parties, cameras in all of the houses. I imagine people are incredibly nervous about what's on those videos. And the people that are nervous are the ones who knew what was going on wasn't maybe, um, all on the up and up.

Starting point is 00:21:30 If it comes to conversations about minors, those are more of a do not pass go. If somebody's under the age of 18, it doesn't really matter what you knew or didn't know or thought or didn't think. Yeah. But different than like the Epstein case where you clearly have minors who are speaking out about how they were coerced. So we will see. I think people at record labels are probably very nervous.

Starting point is 00:21:50 I think everybody's mad he had all those videos. My speculation, and this is my speculation, I imagine he used those videos to great effect to stay out of trouble for so long. Yeah. Do you think he is the biggest fish in this case? I think he's one of them. I mean, you can't look at the money, power, and influence

Starting point is 00:22:06 and not see him at the top. It's who else was at the top with him. And in those civil lawsuits, people have started naming other celebrities that were involved, that were on yachts with him and what have you. So we're starting to see some of that in those civil lawsuits.

Starting point is 00:22:19 What are some of the names that have been named in the civil lawsuits? Usher came up quite a lot in one of the civil lawsuits. Over the weekend, we saw that he deleted his entire Twitter. Now, that seems stupid to me because I would feel like if he's been under investigation that maybe a little too late for Usher to delete. I mean, maybe from a fan standpoint, but like wouldn't the fans have probably already looked? And would the feds be able to, even though he deleted it,

Starting point is 00:22:46 go to Axe or Twitter or whatever you wanna call it, and subpoena them and try to say, well, you deleted it, but great, we want the, what do they call it, the hard data or the? Oh, absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And on all social media networks, the amount of stuff they turn over when you get subpoenaed

Starting point is 00:23:01 is truly incredible. Snapchat's never gone, Twitter's never really gone. That stuff can be subpoenaed, but not just do they get the tweets, they get the IMEI number of the phone that posted it, if it's a phone, they get the network and the IP address of what wifi it came from. They get the location where you were.

Starting point is 00:23:19 They can be like, this person holding this phone was standing in this location when they posted this tweet. So you can't even really be like it wasn't me. Emily, to piggyback off of that, have you been seeing that there's been an increasing list of CEOs and top company leaders leaving their job at an increasing rate since Diddy's been indicted or taken into custody? I've seen that on social. I haven't verified it myself, but I've seen a ton of that on social

Starting point is 00:23:46 with like list after list after list of people who seemingly may be unrelated stepping down from their jobs like all in the last week. Right. Do you think that there's a correlation to that? Or do you think that it's just a coincidence? I don't know yet. I really wait on court documents to come in, but I'm very interested to see where

Starting point is 00:24:07 the investigative reporters go with who's connected to who and who's tied into who. It's something I have my eyes on because we're not going to see a ton out of the criminal case really. Now that he's in custody until we start getting closer to trial, it's going to be motions and dates. When do you think trial, have they set a date for trial? Oh gosh, no. They have their initial conference later this month, but we're probably looking at a year plus out. His attorneys are going to ask for more time. There is so much digital evidence. There are like over 90 devices and that's phones, hard drives, the security systems.

Starting point is 00:24:41 The defense has so much to go through and the defense has all of the data from witnesses phones and what have you. So not to preview the Diddy episode, but it's a lot. Oh my God. It's, it's crazy. And then I see a lot of discourse online. I don't know if we need legal experts, legal advice on this one, but just the Justin Bieber of it all. Like it seemed like there's a lot of videotapes of when Justin Bieber was like 14 15 years old hanging out with Diddy Justin I think over the years has talked about just very vaguely very cryptically just like what he's had to go through as a minor Coming up in the music industry and I you hear a lot of people again spec you It's all speculation at this point speculating like is it the Diddy of it all is?

Starting point is 00:25:24 What horrific things that Justin may or may not have had to do. His father-in-law posted something very cryptically, which isn't the first for Stephen Baldwin, but he very cryptically, something about the calm before the storm or whatever, but he posted it over the weekend. It seemed to have coincided,

Starting point is 00:25:40 obviously with Diddy's arrest. Again, a lot of people are speculating, but again, like also he's not really involved in their life it seems like. I can't imagine like Justin having to relive this while just welcoming his son into the world. I hope he's able to disconnect. I, you know, that's another thing too.

Starting point is 00:25:56 It's just like, let's say for example, well, let's say something happened with Justin. What rights does Justin as a minor have for his privacy when it comes to this case? Like, I don't know, let's say something inappropriate happened, Justin was traumatized, hopefully he's gotten whatever help he may need, but to Nellie's point, this comes up, it's a national case, everyone wants to know.

Starting point is 00:26:20 If Justin doesn't want some of this information or abuse that may not happen, is he entitled to his privacy or is that something he's gonna have to deal with? What's hard about this case is when the feds did the indictment they named victim one as victim one. The defense attorney went a very long way in their bail hearing to talk about exactly who victim one was.

Starting point is 00:26:42 And the allegations coincide very closely with Cassie's civil lawsuit. So the feds try to protect victim identity, but this case is very centered around Cassie's civil lawsuit and she brought that forward on her own. So even if there are videos, if there is something that the feds uncover, my hope would always be that they go to the victim first

Starting point is 00:27:06 to talk about if they're pursuing that. They've got enough on the racketeering, they don't need to. It also depends on how far out that is. But New York changed its statute of limitations for survivors of sexual abuse to allow them more time to bring lawsuits. The thought being that when things happen,

Starting point is 00:27:24 especially when you're a minor, by the time you turn 18, you might not be ready to bring lawsuits. The thought being that when things happen, especially when you're a minor, by the time you turn 18, you might not be ready to bring that forward in a civil lawsuit, or even in a criminal way. We might not even know what happened to you, Exactly.

Starting point is 00:27:33 or be able to process. Exactly. So they opened up the statute of limitations to allow people to bring those cases later. And we're seeing that across the country where they're like, okay, we need more time to allow people to process this and bring it later. And of course, there are defense attorneys that criticize that.

Starting point is 00:27:49 How can you defend something that happened 30 plus years ago? That makes it very difficult for a defendant. So there's push pull and all these things. But those videos that are in evidence should never become public. If they do, I will be very skeptical of how they come out. It is very unlike the federal government to leak those sorts of things. So I will be keeping an eye on that.

Starting point is 00:28:10 What's hard is that people have made, like, deep fake songs that they say are Justin Bieber that aren't Justin Bieber. So now we've got people contributing to the conversation with words that aren't even his. And I imagine that's incredibly frustrating because it almost forces him into a position where he has to say something or not say something that he might not want to or ever want to.

Starting point is 00:28:33 And that should be his choice. This is really interesting. Your insight is... I mean, I knew, I mean, I've read headlines of some of the Diddy stuff, but I mean, had no idea about all of this. So this is really interesting. The racketeering laws started for the mafia and have changed a lot for these large organizations, music organizations, and people who perpetrate like broad scale abuse.

Starting point is 00:28:54 It's very different than what it was originally written for. And we're seeing that in the YSL case in Georgia to less, I mean, effect. They are trying to use the racketeering laws to go after criminal street gangs, you know, different from kind of old school. For our audience, if they don't know what racketeering means. I honestly, in effect, they're trying to use the racketeering laws to go after criminal street gangs, you know, different from kind of old-school. For our audience, if they don't know what racketeering means. I honestly, you know, when I learned about racketeering was Dark Knight. It was from Dark Knight. They call it like Rico case, right? Rico cases.

Starting point is 00:29:14 For the average person who doesn't know much about law, what is racketeering and Rico mean? Rico is the short for the racketeering act, which is, oh, I'm going to blank on what the I stands for, though I shouldn't because we always call it RICO, but in some, it was written to address the mafia. So there, if you can prove a criminal organization, then you can use acts perpetrated by that organization as part of the prosecution of having a criminal organization. But RICO is very broad, so they can reach back to things that are maybe outside of the statute of limitations or the time you're allowed to bring something. So you can bring up things that happened 20, 30 years ago. You might not be able to charge

Starting point is 00:29:56 a crime for that, but you can use it to show that unbreaking pattern of criminal activity. So they can reach all the way back to like the JLO nightclub shooting and be like, look, this is part of that pattern of behavior. Even if they're not charging what happened in that shooting, they can still bring it up under this umbrella of Rico. It's incredibly broad. It allows the feds to kind of throw everything in there, stuff that wouldn't always be relevant

Starting point is 00:30:22 in court they can bring up. So when you say that, you know, we watch a lot of, you know, all the people, all us Law and Order fans out there, right? Like everything we know from Law is like the shows that we watch, right? Of course. But it's often, it's like, oh, that's not immiscible in this case, right?

Starting point is 00:30:36 So you're speaking to that. So like a crime could happen, evidence is presented, the judge says, well, it doesn't really pertain to this. And you're saying, Rico really just gives the feds kind of a free-frawl to kind of connect any dots if it implicates their defendant. If it's part of that unbroken pattern, it's a full, like Bethany Frankel mentioned at all,

Starting point is 00:30:56 you can bring up tons of other activity that might not be chargeable, might not be relevant. What Diddy's security guard did at like the Intercontinental Hotel trying to pay someone to get rid of the video, which is alleged by the feds, from that incident, that's not something Diddy did himself. So in a normal case, you couldn't bring up somebody else's behavior and tie it back

Starting point is 00:31:21 to the person on trial, but in Rico, those are all people acting in furtherance of the organization. It's the same with conspiracy, very broad. And it allows the feds to bring in a ton of forfeiture allegations, which means they can take your shit, and if they can't find your shit, they can substitute in other shit for it.

Starting point is 00:31:39 So the forfeiture in this case is going to be massive, because it's anything that's a profit of the organization, but they're alleging that the liquor company, the clothing, the record label is all part of the organization. Every plane, boat, car, house, everything is going to be on the table for forfeiture. Wow. And obviously we'll have to let this all play out, but, and this is all speculation, but given what is presented now, it being federal, does Diddy, Diddy have any chance of beating this? The digital evidence seems to be very strong. And what we saw in the bail hearing was the

Starting point is 00:32:14 defense attorney saying, this isn't racketeering. This was a 10 year relationship with him and Cassie that soured. It's a distasteful argument. I think a lot of juries in 2024 are not like, oh, right, that's that's what we're arguing. But the defense is arguing right now that she tried to sell the book rights to her book back to Diddy for $30 million. So they're going to attack her. I don't know if they're going to be able to attack the search warrants, the digital evidence. And that's going to be really hard for them because the digital evidence is there. If it's on video, it's on video. You can attack how the feds got the video

Starting point is 00:32:48 but if that was on a legit search warrant, there's not much you can do. That's why they were fighting so hard to keep them out of custody. Well, thank you for all that expert. I mean, we went down the rabbit hole. I can't wait to hear your next episode where you dive into the connections of everybody.

Starting point is 00:33:01 Well, I'm just wondering, yeah, like with Elizabeth, who knows between now and Wednesday, what might come out. Moving on, another crazy situation, Batch nation is dealing with. Two. Two. Well, the Devon of it all, it's crazy. I wanted to ask, well,

Starting point is 00:33:20 first let's get into the Devon of it all. Justin, could you break down for our audience, like what what is if you haven't been noticing, if you haven't been following, break down the Devon restraining order situation for us? Yeah, well, so basically in the past week, which is a week or two after the finale where we saw Devon ghosted Jen or whatever that capacity may be, there was an affidavit that was published, which includes Devon's arrest warrant for a simple burglary of an inhabited dwelling of his ex. This happens to be a felony. Devin was arrested because he was reportedly burglarized his ex-girlfriend's

Starting point is 00:33:54 Louisiana home. She also has a restraining order against Devin. This all happened in 2017, seven years before he was picked to be on the show and it was sealed. I'm not entirely sure, Emily, what the sealed part of it means. But apparently his girlfriend had been out of town when she came home she found many of her possessions broken and thrown all over the floor. She also noticed that Devin had taken the expensive necklace he had given her as a gift. The scary part is that Devin was neighbors with his ex-girlfriend at the time. She also accused him of coming to her home multiple times and banging on the door several times and screaming at her.

Starting point is 00:34:28 This is why she filed a restraining order against Devin. And then it also goes further. She had a flat end in her vehicle when it was getting changed and then Strader came outside, this is Devin, and began laughing at her. Further goes into, he put me in a choke hold and covering my mouth. So there's a lot of different layers of stalking,

Starting point is 00:34:45 burglary, and then potential physical assault. He also spit on her and threw his drink on her in front of everyone in the stands. Yeah, some truly horrific shit. Yeah. Truly. But she's apologized since, but I don't know if we wanna jump into the restraining order

Starting point is 00:34:59 before we get to his apology. Well, I don't really care Devin's apology. Yeah, I mean, he posted an apology. Devin, did he really apologize? No. It was more of a, I took it as care. Devin's apology? Yeah, I mean, he posted an apology. Did he really apologize? No. It was more of a denial. He basically said there was never a restraining order. That was dropped.

Starting point is 00:35:12 It's like we got back together or some bullshit like that. He used the words misconstrued. So he's like, it was misconstrued what the restraining order was. It was me with a relationship in the past and being young and not realizing how to deal with it and that he reconciled with this ex before breaking off. He used a lot of terms to minimize what he did

Starting point is 00:35:28 by saying like, I'm not proud in a lapse in judgment and whatnot, where it's like, no, no, no, you made very strong choices that had legal repercussions. It wasn't there also like a threats of violence in there as well? Yeah, so that's the put me in a choke hold, covered my mouth, spit on me. Well, that's actual violence.

Starting point is 00:35:44 Yeah. Didn't he say like, spit on me. There's like different- Well, that's actual violence. Yeah. Didn't he say like, I'll kill you or something like that? Something like that. He also threatened her best, the ex-girlfriend's best friend as well, saying that he was gonna beat him up and using homosexual slurs. And then a friend came out after Devin's post,

Starting point is 00:35:59 I didn't take it as an apology, I took it as essentially a denial. Yeah, that's what it was, yeah. And reinforced everything that's been out there in terms of this restraining order. It's all terrible. And then there's apparently Gil, the Golden Bachelor, one of the men on Jones Season, it came out just recently that he too has a restraining order currently out against him.

Starting point is 00:36:21 There's a lot of people obviously in reality TV space, fans of the show, fans of Bachelor Nation. I think a lot of the uproar, and rightfully so, I mean, this is a terrible look on the franchise. I mean, to think about how the show is filmed, fantasy suites, off camera, in privacy, the expectation of engagement. Yeah, the show ends, but like you go off into the real world and you interact with whoever the show introduces you to and Jen was in a relationship with this, we seem to be a dangerous man. My

Starting point is 00:36:52 question for you, Emily, is I think there's a lot, you know, how, the question out there is how could the show not find this? And I think what's even scarier, and I talked with you a little bit over the weekend, is just how difficult it can be for some of these networks. And again, I'm not trying to alleviate any wrongdoing that the show may or may not have done. I just think when you find out, like get the impression if you don't know where to look, you might not find,

Starting point is 00:37:18 and then you think about the scale of which any of these shows, forget about Batch Nation, any show that's potentially reviewing hundreds of different potential cast people and they narrow it down they have to do background checks on all these people so how do background checks work in general and can you articulate why ABC Disney Warner Brothers two giant entities with a lot of resources who produce this show why something like this might not be caught it's interesting because I wonder which third party entity

Starting point is 00:37:47 they're having do this. I imagine the network has hired a company to do the background checks, maybe show by show, maybe franchise by franchise. But background checks really heavily, depending on how they're done, will swoop public records. When you're talking about things that happen maybe in a family court, not a criminal court,

Starting point is 00:38:08 oftentimes records can be sealed. And again, that's not to say the network shouldn't dig deeper because in a show like The Bachelor and The Bachelorette, the thing you're worried about the most are things that might be in family court. A criminal felony conviction is gonna be really easy to find most of the time. But there were times, and I think I mentioned this

Starting point is 00:38:26 when we were talking, there were times even at the DA's office, we would run background checks on in custody defendants. We have fingerprints, social security, photo, and we would still miss convictions from other jurisdictions, because all those computer systems don't talk to each other well.

Starting point is 00:38:40 So depending on how you run the background check, you might not find things even from other jurisdictions within the same state, it can be a challenge. How the networks deal with making sure the contestants are upfront about that would be a very interesting thing. I imagine there are tons of waivers signed you sign away definitely signed a waiver. This is true. I mean, are we going to see the networks turning around and suing contestants if they're not truthful on those waivers and maybe handle it that way if something does get missed? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I had to sign something

Starting point is 00:39:14 and say I've never been arrested or convicted of whatever. And then there's another issue is, especially when we're dealing with restraining orders, normally the process is you get a temporary restraining order, and that is an immediate, like, this is something that needs to be issued now. The things that are said in the TRO aren't run past the other party. It is just a, I need this now. And the court system is like, look, if somebody is in danger, it's better to get the temporary

Starting point is 00:39:41 restraining order in place and then fight over whether it should be made permanent down the road. That is the balance that the court system takes to get it done quickly. So then you've got a temporary restraining order. If it never becomes permanent, is that a conviction? That's not really a conviction. It was a temporary restraining order that never became permanent. But that doesn't mean there was never a restraining order. But if somebody's playing words, it's like, well, technically it's a TRO, not a full restraining order. We saw this play out with Sheena and Rachel too on Vanderpump where Rachel went and said Sheena had punched her in New York after WHL and got the temporary

Starting point is 00:40:19 restraining order. And when they went to court for the final, Rachel didn't show up to court and the whole thing got dropped. But how do you call that a restraining order and when they went to court for the final, Rachel didn't show up to court and the whole thing got dropped. But, do you call that a restraining order? Do you call that a temporary restraining order? And so, there's room for people to play games there. And when I read his statement, that's how I read it. Is that he was playing games in the fine lines of they resolved it, but it seemed that they resolved it

Starting point is 00:40:40 for some of a stay away from me and I'll stay away from you and we won't make this a five year restraining order which can have more impact. And that's the thing what's also seems scary it sounds like if there's an incident where the victim maybe just wants to move on or wants it to go away, whatever that person did there seems to be maybe even less access to that information or it's you know like you can can like someone like Devin could he have in any way influenced the difficulty of how something like this is searched or found? Not necessarily it

Starting point is 00:41:15 really depends on how the court system itself reports it. Family courts can be difficult to get information out of because they deal with child custody. They deal a lot with child placement kids that are taken out of the home. You can deal with very sensitive topics that you don't necessarily need to be searchable. And then when court records are sealed, you can often see that something happened but can't see what happened. So the fact that the affidavit's even out there, even though it had been a sealed record, those are normally things you can't access and see. The fact that there was a TRO and then it was dismissed should be something that you

Starting point is 00:41:49 can see, but it really just depends on how that one jurisdiction reports it and if they report it and how old it is because some of the court systems weren't digital until very recently, like very, very recently. So if you're not searching jurisdiction by jurisdiction and you don't know to go look at that jurisdiction, some courts you still have to walk in to go get records. That's just actually terrifying when you think about it. Yes. So like if you're someone out, you know, the day we're out there, we're dating in a world

Starting point is 00:42:15 where you think if you Google someone, you've done your homework. But like the more I learn, it's like maybe, I mean, maybe tip of the iceberg, basically. I use global entry. I'd be like, Hey, did did you do you have global entry? No, okay Look for the googling might not just be enough. Maybe we need TSA pre-check, but even then I don't know how much of that They'll find especially things that may have been resolved and again They may be resolved because the victims like I don't want to keep coming back to court and seeing this person.

Starting point is 00:42:45 I want to never see them again, and I want to get away from them. And that's hard. I think this is gonna put a big, shine a big light on The Bachelor and this franchise of just like any more leads being like, well, you don't fucking know who you're casting. Like, now I'm scared to like,

Starting point is 00:43:04 what if I choose the wrong person to go in fantasy suites with where your cameras leave me alone with him for the entire night? Like, how do I trust that you're like picking safe people for me? What's scary is, oh, the question I was gonna ask you, Emily, is if ABC came to you, Emily, and said,

Starting point is 00:43:19 we need your help, we've had this kind of slip up, things are falling through the cracks, what advice would you give them? Or I guess it feels like the takeaway is You can try as hard as you might but there is no guarantee you're ever gonna catch Everything under the Sun or or would you be able to offer some assistance? I don't know if they're ever going to be able to catch everything I think having stronger consequences if people mislead in that initial process, would deter some of that behavior.

Starting point is 00:43:50 If you have ABC Disney coming after you for the damage you've done to the franchise, I imagine that might deter others who are going to come onto a franchise and maybe not disclose things, that they have to disclose it. So that might be step one. And then I'd wanna see how they're doing

Starting point is 00:44:05 their background searches and maybe look at a different company to do that. It's pretty crazy that the internet is better at finding this stuff than Bachelor, ABC. Part of that is like once these people are on TV, then friends come forward. Friends of friends come forward. People know friends of friends come forward people you know like even if you do a quick search on Twitter or Facebook and

Starting point is 00:44:29 You know how you how are you gonna find the picture of the person in the picture with a group of people? Doing crazy shit, but they weren't tagged in it It's just like once be these people go on TV become famous become celebrities like once be these people go on TV, become famous, become celebrities, then bachelor nation, yeah, and fans and friends and acquaintances and people like, wait, I know that guy from five years ago, he's an asshole, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So do you think that Devin just thought

Starting point is 00:44:55 this had all gone away and that's why he went seven years later, he's like, you know what? Yeah, that'd be my guess. My guess is, is like, maybe he forgot about it, maybe he did his own searches and couldn't like find his own stuff and then applied thought, well, it's sealed. They let them on. They thought, oh, well, if the ABC couldn't find it, no one's going to find it. My guess it was some kind of narcissism of, of just not thinking he could get caught or something. When it comes to the audience, though, you're now going many to one.

Starting point is 00:45:25 So you have many people in an audience focused on one person based on their actions on the show. I don't know how many franchises are in the mix when they're running background checks. I don't know if the level of intensity is there and maybe they will reevaluate their processes. I'm sure their in-house lawyers are like, you've got to be joking me that this has now happened twice.

Starting point is 00:45:45 So I think we'll see it narrowing down, but it's much easier if somebody tips off someone who's covering the show regularly, hey, this thing went down in this jurisdiction. It becomes much easier to find it if you are looking in the exact right court system, because we've got a whole federal system, and then each state has their own counties, boroughs, parishes, and you've got to drill down to the right court system because we've got a whole federal system and then each state has their own counties, burrows,

Starting point is 00:46:06 parishes, and you've got to drill down to the right court system and sometimes the right courthouse to find things. I will say for the golden batch one, the restraining order, temporary restraining order was filed between the time of the network completing the background checks and the time that they filmed.

Starting point is 00:46:20 Yeah, so they wouldn't have called as well as after luck. But where's the onus to disclose it though? Yeah. Yeah. I have a question for luck. But where's the onus to disclose it though? Yeah. Yeah. I have a question for her. Is it typical for a restraining order to be sealed? Cause usually when you,

Starting point is 00:46:31 it's hard to get a restraining order to begin with, let alone a temporary one, but it's typically, you know, domestic violence related. So why would something like that be sealed? When you've got a temporary restraining order, it's oftentimes that the affidavits are sealed cause they haven't been vetted through the court process yet. The other party hasn't had an opportunity to respond.

Starting point is 00:46:50 It is the initial statement of what the victim is saying happened, and then they issue the temporary restraining order, then it goes through court process. Oftentimes, that's to protect both parties if it hasn't gone through process yet. It's easier when we take it into, into like the Sheena Rachel conversation versus this conversation because this affidavit is incredibly serious, but it didn't go all the way through the restraining order process and the due process of right to confrontation and having a day in court

Starting point is 00:47:19 where both parties are heard. And the goal of that is to allow for whatever has happened to get some separation and some protection for the party who's like, no, I need to be protected. And then you go through the court process later. So that's part of the balancing act depending on the jurisdiction. How it got unsealed, I'm very interested to know. Or if it got disclosed by the person who made the affidavit

Starting point is 00:47:44 because that can happen as well. I hope that if it's,osed by the person who made the affidavit, because that can happen as well. I hope that if it's, I mean, yeah, that seems like the smartest move here for Warner Brothers, ABC, or maybe they kind of get in on it together. I guess it would be Warner Brothers, since they're the ones who actually produce it, but it's to go after Devin, to sue his ass. And because, yeah, I don't remember all the documents I signed, but I signed a lot to go on the show. It's probably a ton. And I would imagine I would have to,

Starting point is 00:48:08 I know I did an interview with a private investigator, yada, yada, and I'm sure I signed that all the statements that I made were true and accurate. Yeah, I would think that makes a lot of sense for them to do that, because a lot of times, as cast members, a lot of people are like, oh, why does the show like sue, you know, so and so because they did an interview they shouldn't have done. And like, it's like these contracts that we all sign as cast members, they're outdated

Starting point is 00:48:35 and old. And for the most part, the network has to decide, does it like, is it worth going after this cast member for something they shouldn't have done and technically we can sue them? But the optics of like of how can we cast people if we're just suing all our cast members? This is a completely different situation. It's the opposite of, to protect our cast members, to give them the safety and security

Starting point is 00:48:56 that we want them to feel to come on our show, we have to go after the people who disparaged us and lied to us with the full force and might of everything we have. So maybe they'll do that. I mean, we'll see how they they have to, other than we're reevaluating our vetting process, they have to take a look at how they are vetting people. And then they also have to consider when you have people who already have violence in their background, shows involve a lot of alcohol.

Starting point is 00:49:25 Like that is a really explosive potential situation. And you would think they'd be mindful of it going in. And with what Bravo's going through, again, part of the NBC Universal family, they're going through their whole reality reckoning with civil lawsuit after civil lawsuit after civil lawsuit. So then the question is, do the other members of the cast or the

Starting point is 00:49:45 bachelorette say, you know what, I'm going to sue because I was not made safe by the network. So going kind of the Bethany Frankel route of, you know what, forget it. I'll sue the network then. I'm guessing Jen wants to move on. I would imagine so. But does she have a case? And it's expensive. I would need a lot more information. Like on what was signed, what exactly the words in that are said, where

Starting point is 00:50:07 there's gray area, and it might be a really good opportunity for a reevaluation of all those contracts. They're so user-ous on reality participants anyway. They basically have, you have no ability to negotiate those contracts. Sign it or don't be on the show. Do you want to be on TV or not? Yeah. Yeah. That is wild.

Starting point is 00:50:26 Thanks so much for that. Of course. Great. Well, let's turn to my much brighter note and bring episode one's fan favorite, well, there are a lot of fan favorites, but one of them was Jack from Chicago. Let's bring him on and find out about his night one experience.

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Starting point is 00:51:47 you need. A fitted sheet, a flat sheet, a duvet cover, and four pillowcases. Instead of buying individual items by purchasing a hardcore bundle which includes a core sheet set, extra pillowcases, and a duvet cover, you can save a ton. Ready to layer your dream fall bed? Visit in-store or online at Brooklinen.com. That's B-R-O-O-K-L-I in store or online at Brooklyn.com. That's B-R-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N dot com and get 15% off your first order. Again, that's Brooklyn.com and get 15% off your first order. Hinge! This week I had the amazing Logan Urie on to talk about the new feature, Your Turn Limits on Hinge and now it's going to change the online dating game.

Starting point is 00:52:26 Hinge is releasing a new feature called Your Turn Limits. And what we found is that when daters are talking to more than eight people at the same time, it can be really hard to turn that into a date. And so with this new limit, once you've reached eight conversations, you either have to respond to one of them or close out one of them before you can get a new match.

Starting point is 00:52:46 So it's really about helping people focus on the matches right in front of them. Yeah, I love to hear that, Logan. I always talk a lot to my audience about dating apps. Obviously, I've always been a huge advocate of them. But like Hinge seems to have discovered, you really have to limit your options because sometimes, an abundance of choice can really feel discouraging. It almost is analysis by paralysis. There's always this perception of abundance. And I think sometimes it's great if we can self-place, but it's great to have an app who is assisting us to make sure that we don't get overwhelmed by the

Starting point is 00:53:20 number of matches and really help, you know, be intentional with our dating. It seems like that's the goal with this new great feature from Hinge. That's exactly what we're going for. We really want to help people be intentional and we want people to spend as little time on the app as possible and actually get onto a date. This is exciting, Logan. I'm really happy to hear these changes on Hinge. Get Hinge today to start turning good convos into great dates. Hey there. Hey, Jack. How's it going? Hinge. Get Hinge today to start turning good combos into great dates.

Starting point is 00:53:50 Hey there. Hey, Jack. How's it going? Yeah. Those guns. Real life. Wow. You said let me put the tank top on. Your old man wearing the tank top. Yeah, it's okay. As it should be. Yes. Jack, we really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. You were such a hit night one.

Starting point is 00:54:13 I guess just first, how did you end up on the show in the first place? What made you want to embark on this very unique journey? You know, I'm the luckiest son of a bitch there is because my old girlfriend actually put me or told me how to do it, you know, because I need to be told things. And so I filled out, I think it was 39 freaking pages

Starting point is 00:54:37 and I might've had a few cocktails that night. And so I filled it all out and the next thing you know, they started interviewing me. Hell yeah. What a supportive ex-girlfriend. That's high praise. She was like, you know, you might not be for me,

Starting point is 00:54:51 but you are for Joan. Wait a minute, what was the question? I think I got confused. I just love that it was your ex-girlfriend who was like, you should go on this show. Yes, she was, but she, actually years ago, she put me on a dating app. and it was like, you know, I it was just yeah anyway. You're like the best ex-boyfriend of all time. Like what's what's your

Starting point is 00:55:13 what is your trick to have your exes be so in love with you even after you're not together? Is it your cooking? It's in love with me. I think it's more the things are comfortable with me, you know, because the time it shows like this. I think I talked to every single one of them at least once a week. I mean, there's just, and there's quite a few. And okay. Is it the cooking? No, I had one actually, you know, I lived with you for three years and you never cooked for me. one actually that says, you know, I lived with you for three years and you never cooked for me. Busted. That one was kind of copy. That was actually I just got this morning.

Starting point is 00:56:00 So yes, that's hilarious. I have to know, do the ex girlfriends also get along? It seems like you guys have a really cool friend group. You know, this ex-girlfriend that said that, she has a restaurant, and she had over 200 people in her restaurant the other day. There was probably four ex-girlfriends in that crowd. Oh my god. Did they have a watch party for the show? Party, actually, there were seven watch parties in this area.

Starting point is 00:56:23 Of course, I couldn't go to them, but you know, I stayed at home and watched it with a few friends. Wow, popular. That's great. I think Jack, what we love so much about the show and Golden Bachelor is I think we act as a society that's just like, you know, when you're young, you date, you have kids, and it's just kinda like

Starting point is 00:56:44 when you're older, like people treat you have kids. And it's just kinda like when you're older, people treat you like you're not supposed to still chase your dreams and have second chances or things like that. It's so inspiring to see this collection of people be ambitious, take risks. Have you always been a risk taker like this? Or is this you getting out of your comfort zone?

Starting point is 00:57:01 And yeah, what are your thoughts on all that in terms of being at the point of your comfort zone and yeah what are your thoughts on all that in terms of like being at the point of your life and still taking big risks and searching for love and the importance of that? I am a risk taker and I just you know I mean I want to get the most out of life and I've been fortunate enough you know I had the most successful catering business and restaurant in the area and then one day I just said, that's enough. And you know, I sold everything and I just been, again, luckiest guy ever.

Starting point is 00:57:32 I've got two wonderful children, three wonderful grandchildren. I just been lucky. I mean, I know how lucky you are. You're 68 years old and you have maybe the best head of hair I've ever seen. Like that's not, as a guy who's not quite your age, I hope I'm as lucky as you

Starting point is 00:57:50 because I think every man looks at you and says, please, please let that be me. What's your trick, Jack, to this beautiful head of hair that you have? You know, my father passed away at 95 and he had a full head of hair when he died, you know? No way. It's so funny because I have three other brothers

Starting point is 00:58:07 and they all got, you know, a decent amount of hair except for one. And he used to tell me when I was a kid that the police brought me. And so I said, because that was kind of a double, anyway. Now look at this now. I said, who did the police bring? That is amazing.

Starting point is 00:58:31 What was your favorite part of the Bachelor Mansion? Cause you seem to be really enjoying your time there. There wasn't a part that I didn't like, except for, wait a minute, the bedroom upstairs. So the bedroom, and don't get me wrong, it was very nice, except for I got claustrophobia. And when I looked the first night and there's like, like a wood thing above me, yeah, it wasn't good.

Starting point is 00:58:54 So I slept on it. Were you on the top bunk? Did they make you sleep, did they make you guys sleep on? Not a bunk, but you got the top bunk. Oh yeah. Wait, so they're making you all sleep on bunk beds still? Cause I, that for, for, for- To say that, no problem.

Starting point is 00:59:07 That's okay. I'm saying that Jack. I was one, I was in that world. They can yell at me. But yes, there's bunk beds. So like they, you know, you have, when it, when it starts, it's like night one, after the night when people go home,

Starting point is 00:59:19 there's still like 20 some people left and you sleep in bunk beds, which is fine for- Well, we saw that on Gary's season because they were arguing about whose hip was in place to climb up to the top bunk. I mean, it's a very real concern. I got two new ones, so I could have made it up there. But... Oh, you're ready to party with two new hips. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:59:43 It's Shakira. That's great. But it was so funny. I can't remember if I wasn't supposed to say, but the first night I went and you know, I went and I said, I can't sleep here. I said, so I went and I said, I went downstairs. There were a couple of producers still up.

Starting point is 00:59:59 I said, hey, I'm gonna go outside and sleep. And they said, sure, no problem. They said, there's a lot of tarantulas out there. As soon as they said that shit, I closed the goddamn door and they said, hey, I ain't going out there, but I ain't going up there. So I actually slept in the Rose Room.

Starting point is 01:00:15 Okay. Ooh, the Rose Room. Yeah, I know what he means. Smart. What did your kids think about this experience, Jack? You know, my ex-wife and my two daughters were not happy at all about it when I first started doing it.

Starting point is 01:00:29 And right now, all three of them are happy with it. So I... Why weren't they happy? What were they most worried about? You know, I think it was my ex at first that was thinking that I was gonna say something stupid and because I have a habit of saying something stupid. But I would never disrespect, she's a wonderful woman,

Starting point is 01:00:51 just not the woman for me. There you go. Sierra, you got any questions for our boy Jack? Um, I just loved your gratitude for every moment in life and I was just wondering where did that come from? Because you were just so adorable, episode one, walking around the house being like, how amazing, how great. And like, where did that, where did that come from? Because you know, again, I was a South Chicago kid, we didn't have shit when I was a kid.

Starting point is 01:01:18 And all through my life, I somehow I became a success. I had this whatever, multi whatever catering business that we did these phenomenal numbers. I mean, I did parties for like 20,000 at a time. Wow. And you know, a thousand people and this and that. And again, nobody gets to do the shit that I get doing with this or with my business. I was very whatever. I did very good. I call myself a caterer, not a chef. Somebody was questioning that. I was. I think we were. We were. We were wondering.

Starting point is 01:01:53 I saw you whipping in the kitchen and I was like, this man is a chef, caterer. Yeah. Yeah. But like, it sounds like he's also like, sounds like he's rich as fuck. It does sound like he's rich as fuck. But you know the catering part I mean I used to cater Bears camp when I was a kid Oh, that's awesome the barge room at Sox Park. I've done more mayors in this town in this town in this area's Fundraiser I just again in my old man worked for General Mills, you know where they shoot the cereals, and my dad did do that, he shot cereals out of a gun. And he gave me like a thousand people,

Starting point is 01:02:33 or got me a catering job right when I opened up 40 years ago, and I worked for Sears, so I used to get a thousand people from them right to start out. That's great. Yeah, it seems like a lot of your peers are very accomplished, successful men in various careers. It's been, I was really pleasantly surprised.

Starting point is 01:02:53 You know, you never really know, but it seems like they found some really successful, accomplished guys, so that's pretty cool. Great guys. You know what, just about every single one of them I bullshitted with and they were just really nice guys. I mean, and help you do anything, you know? I had the little, well, nevermind.

Starting point is 01:03:16 Yeah. Who would you say you bonded the most with? Who do you feel like you're the closest with? Greg. Greg. Greg. Greg with two G's. Greg with two G's.

Starting point is 01:03:28 Greg with two G's. Yeah, that's Greg. Yeah. He's like, I don't know, I just felt it. Tell of a guy, and Danny. Dan's the super guy. He's had a lot of health issues, and he's just a good, good stand-up guy. Yeah, it must be very exciting to meet a lot of new friends

Starting point is 01:03:47 that you've shared this incredible experience with. When was the last time in your life you've made all these new friends? Yeah, it don't happen. I mean, especially now since I retired. I retired a year and a half ago. I went to Italy last year, so I met some people there, but nothing like how close we got on the show.

Starting point is 01:04:09 Yeah, that's so cool. Before we let you go, we're excited to see your journey unfold with Joan, but if you do get a chance at a one-on-one, and let's say you got the planet, could you walk us through what Jack's perfect date would be? Okay, I would prepare a dinner for somebody in my home, Could you walk us through what Jack's perfect date would be? Okay. I would prepare a dinner for somebody in my home and, um, and then I have my,

Starting point is 01:04:35 Oh, I can, I, can I show you the patio? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yes. Show us a patio. I don't know if I could do that. It's just a little dinky thing, but it's your little fireplace. Oh yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:43 It's just a little dinky thing, but it's like a little fireplace. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's great. Love that. What a vibe. Super cozy. But it's like, you know, then prepare the dinner, do a little bananas foster for dessert, and then go outside and have a nightcap. There you go.

Starting point is 01:04:58 What's your favorite dating conversation topic? Catering, oh, let's see. Like what do you like to talk about on dates, mostly? Probably, I try to listen, you know what I mean? Because there's way too many people that don't listen and just talk, you know? And I do like talk, but, but, but. Listen and find out what the hell,

Starting point is 01:05:24 what's going on with them. So I try to make sure and I think about that on a date. Hey, you just talk for a minute, may have better talk for now. Jack, do you know what Bachelor in Paradise is? I do not. Okay. It is a show that in the past has taken

Starting point is 01:05:43 former bachelor contestants, men and women, and brought them to a beach of some kind. And it's a variation of The Bachelor, and then they bring various people in, and it's another chance at love. If The Bachelor franchise decides to do a golden bachelor paradise, would you, assuming, like I don't know if you end up with Joan,

Starting point is 01:06:05 but only one can end up with Joan, would you be interested if you don't end up with Joan? Would you be open to that possibility? Hell yeah. Okay, okay. He's got the tank top on, he's ready. I mean, come on, let's think about it. I'm 68 years old, what the hell else was I gonna do?

Starting point is 01:06:26 You know what? I would love to see Golden Bachelor in Paradise. I think it would be so cool. They have to do it. They have to do it. You've got two seasons now, you've got plenty of people. Yeah, they have to do it, I don't know. Assuming you are not with Joan,

Starting point is 01:06:39 if you are, very, very happy for you. If you're not, even if you are, whatever. You're with Joan, you're not with Joan. That's besides the point. Is there anyone from Gary's season that maybe you have seen? If he's with Joan, you can't answer that question. Did he watch Gary's season?

Starting point is 01:06:59 Did you watch Gary's season? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably not so much but but I did. I mean, I've seen a couple of there was that lady with the dark hair actually somebody had been fixed up with her and some kind of thing. And she was real pretty and everything but I wish I knew the name. Sorry, Susan. Susan? That's her. Yeah, she was tall, good looking, yeah. Ooh, okay. All right.

Starting point is 01:07:25 Well, Jack, we really appreciate your time. We know you have to go. We are excited to see episode two, which is tomorrow night for everyone. If you haven't checked it out yet, you gotta watch it. It's, even if, I don't care what your thoughts on the regular Bachelor are, maybe if you fell off, you gotta watch it.

Starting point is 01:07:43 It's just such a feel good, it's so, it's just a shot of goodness injected into your soul. So tune in, watch Jack, he is such a delight, he was an absolute star. I hope you stick around for a while, man, but either way, thank you for taking the time and we really appreciate you. Well thank you, you guys were a lot of fun.

Starting point is 01:08:02 So, and you're like casual as shit. That's really cool. And so, you gotta do one thing. Maybe not the Packer Jersey next time. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Hey, Jeff. Are you embarrassed, man?

Starting point is 01:08:16 Yeah, you grew up in Chicago. Oh, no. Bye, my bear fan. Do you believe in Caleb? I do, I do. And he showed you a little bit more yesterday, but you gotta remember, Johnny United threw seven interceptions

Starting point is 01:08:29 on his first day in the NFL. So it takes a while. Another Colts quarterback, Peyton Manning, led the league in interceptions as rookie year as well. So you never know. All right, Jack, thanks for the time, man. I appreciate you. It was a slice.

Starting point is 01:08:42 All right, bye-bye. Bye, Jack. All right, bye-bye. Bye, I don't know how to do time, man. I appreciate you. It was a slight. All right. All right. Bye bye. I don't know how to do this, but. Just hang on. Zach, you can remove him. I think I figured out. Hold on. OK. I don't know.

Starting point is 01:08:58 Anyway, you guys have a great one. Thank you. Thank you. It says leave. I promise. Oh no. What? Still there.

Starting point is 01:09:10 He's still there. He's still there. He's still there. It should say leave on the bottom. It says leave on the bottom. In red. Three dots. Okay.

Starting point is 01:09:20 Remove. Close. There you go. Got it. That took a lot of work too. How cute. We're actually keeping that all in. There you go. There you go. Got it. That's a good one too. How cute. We're actually keeping that all in. Love him.

Starting point is 01:09:30 What an absolute delight. Absolute delight. Absolute delight. And I love, I mean, when you talk about the friendships of people, you go through those phases in life where you have kids and you meet new friends because of their kids, but then your kids grow up and have their families

Starting point is 01:09:43 and you retire and you don't have as much community as you get older. So I love that interplay of community too. I think it's really cool. Yeah, no, I would love for them to like, I feel like the Bachelor of Franchise really has something here with Golden Bachelor, even outside the TV show. How could they allow people like Jack or other people

Starting point is 01:10:02 who are looking for love, a second chance at love, for whatever reason, to be able to connect the way these men are connecting with each other and with Joan. It's so exciting and lovely to see. I just really love it. It'd be really interesting if they had like the Bravo Con for Golden Bachelor, just for Golden Bachelor. Like, 55 and up, it's not really for fans,

Starting point is 01:10:26 but it's for fans of a certain age demographic and let people to get together and have community. Cause so much of our society is geared towards folks that are younger. I think that would be a really cool thing though. If somebody makes me in my sixties sleep in a bunk bed, I'm rioting. I'm out.

Starting point is 01:10:40 I mean, I know you grew up in LA, so it's a little different, but like now he's from the South, I'm from the Midwest. And we certainly love those parts of the country, but my criticism of them is there is this societal, they treat you, it's like once you have kids and you're married, then you just start dying.

Starting point is 01:10:56 Yeah. Which is not true at all. It's like people just, you go back home and it's like you do anything fun or youthful, whatever that might be, and people are like, oh, why, it's like you do anything fun or youthful, whatever that might be. People go, why you, you know, it's like they want to judge you for for still living life sometimes. I don't know what that is but love that the Golden Bachelor is bringing awareness, if nothing else, to like the fact that like that's not the case. And every older person I meet always talks about it's

Starting point is 01:11:20 the best decade of their life and and all the things that come with it. And so this is such a joy. I love it. It's a great show. Alright, Gooder, my favorite new company is Gooder. Why? Because they are selling $25 sunglasses that look just as good as your super expensive high quality glasses.

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Starting point is 01:12:51 I would be, but either way, they're still going to give you your money back. If you're not a hundred percent satisfied. Again, that's gooder.com slash vile files, G O O D R.com slash vile files and use code vile files for free shipping. Carraway. We love Carraway. We just got a brand new set for my parents to have up at the lake. As someone who loves to cook, almost daily, at least four or five times a week,

Starting point is 01:13:14 I'm constantly cooking on Carraway. I have been for the past four years now because they're such high quality and they are safe. They don't have those nasty chemicals like the PTFE's, the PFOA's that shockingly, other pots and pans that you could be cooking on have. So stop cooking on harmful pots and pans and get Carraway. They also look great in your kitchen.

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Starting point is 01:14:34 All right, Emily, I am so glad you're here to talk about this because can you break down this case for us because it really, questions I have is one, I mean, I understand anyone can sue anyone yep and is that what we're looking at in this case because this sure seems like a case of he said she said in terms of did he offer to pay for the surgery did he not offer to pay for the surgery and then you have this

Starting point is 01:14:59 whole video conversation about him threatening to leak a video not threatening leak a video that sure threatening to leak a video. That sure, like I think Emily on the show said, that sure sounds a lot like extortion or blackmail. Does Shannon potentially have a case around something like that? Again, maybe she just wants it to go away, but can you break this down for me? Because it just really seems kind of fucked up that this is happening to Shannon. It seems cruel. It seems mean. It seems like a guy who just wants to emotionally beat down his ex. Walk us through from what you know about this

Starting point is 01:15:32 case and what we might be missing or not. Have you guys talked about the Shannon lawsuit on other episodes or just as it weaves into the show? Just as it really weaves into the show. So we haven't really got into the nitty gritty of the case. Just more the, we only really have discussed is kind of the morality around, it just seems kind of fucked up. It's just like when Shannon got her DUI, we were as critical as anyone.

Starting point is 01:15:57 Like, hey, like don't drink and drive. She put herself and other people in jeopardy. It was a terrible thing that she did. She's paying the consequences, you know, through the courts and things like that. But what her ex is doing just for from our standpoint, it seems like a lot of people in Bravo Nation, it just seems cruel and fucked up. And so yeah, we haven't gotten in the nitty gritty in terms of how what this all means from a legal standpoint.

Starting point is 01:16:19 So I can do an overview. But one of the things I talk about a lot in my content is legality and morality are often at opposite ends. So when you're looking at the moral side versus the legal side, they often split. And if you've ever talked to a lawyer and you're like, wow, that was really cold and direct, that's what it is. Like law brain just defaults into you can sue for this, you can't sue for that, and doesn't always evaluate the just because you can doesn't mean you should and I think we've even seen Emily struggle with that on the show Emily is a lawyer Shane's a lawyer and there's times you can see her being very blunt and direct and I'm like, oh there's lawyer Emily you can see it in that moment. There's lawyer Emily

Starting point is 01:16:57 She just dropped right into like but this is what it is and so you can see that disconnect sometimes when lawyers talk with you know, the non lawyers were not always as As compassionate to like I know you feel this way, but this is what it is. So John Jansen sues Shannon in March 2024. In his lawsuit, he says that Shannon promised to pay back the $45,000 for a facelift or $40,000 for a facelift and then $35,000 for just a loan that he wrote her a check for. One was a wire transfer, one was a check. He said he wrote up a promissory note for it

Starting point is 01:17:29 with 6% interest and she was offended that he wrote up a promissory note and refused to sign it. He says in his lawsuit that there are communications, texts and email that confirm that she was going to pay it back, that she wasn't going to sign a promissory note because they were in a relationship at that time. It sounded in the lawsuit like, what do you mean you don't trust me? I'm not signing that.

Starting point is 01:17:52 It's interesting because we've actually seen Shannon use that exact language in the show saying, I never signed a promissory note. I never did any of this. It was a gift I paid for everything. So John's lawsuit is a number of different causes of action that all go to the same thing, which is I gave her $75,000. She said she would pay it back and she didn't. She filed a number of motions to get the case dismissed. The judge said, no, we're not dismissing the case. He's pled it properly, which is a very

Starting point is 01:18:20 low threshold. You just have to allege things. It doesn't mean they're true. You just have to say the right words and then your lawsuit moves forward. So the lawsuit is moving forward. They will get sent to mediation over it. But Shannon said it in one of the first episodes where the lawyers had sent her a letter saying, if you don't pay this back or come up with a payment plan, we're going to sue you. She said, it's going to cost me more to go to court than the $75,000, but now it's a matter of principle. And she's right, it is going to cost her more to litigate this than to just pay it,

Starting point is 01:18:49 but now she's pissed. She's like, I'm not paying this. It wasn't a loan, it was a gift. That's what she said in her answer to the lawsuit. This was a gift. I paid for a lot, and in the relationship, he paid for this, and I'm not paying it. Um, it's been really odd to watch that play out

Starting point is 01:19:07 with Alexis jumping in there to be the voice of John in the, well there's this video and there's this and this can ruin your life. Well, there's also this lawsuit pending. But oral contract lawsuits can be difficult because it's saying we had this verbal agreement, how does the court decide or ultimately a jury decide whose side of that is accurate?

Starting point is 01:19:29 And that's gonna come down to emails and text messages. Really, what emails and text messages there are between the two of them. John's lawsuit says he asked for repayment and she acknowledged that. What the language of that looks like was not included in the lawsuit. I love a lawsuit with pictures.

Starting point is 01:19:46 Like put the screenshots in there. I need the receipts. But that's not in there, which isn't uncommon in California. What did you make of, and again, who knows, but it's a TV show, but on the show a couple weeks ago, we saw Shannon say she wanted to meet his demands. She wanted to settle, and John was like,

Starting point is 01:20:03 no, fuck you, taking it to court. What do you make of that? Because I got the impression that she was willing to pay him everything he originally asked for. She said at first it was half, but I got the sense that she and Emily talked and then she bumped up how much she was gonna offer him, but she wanted the settlement

Starting point is 01:20:20 to have a non-disparagement clause, which is incredibly common. She said on the show, this is standard. It is standard. If you settle a lawsuit with someone, you walk away agreeing not to talk shit about them and not to discuss the terms of the settlement. That is incredibly common.

Starting point is 01:20:36 She said that he didn't want to sign that, and his lawyers actually put out a statement to people saying he was not signing a non-disparagement, which doesn't make any sense to me because John doesn't seem to be talking about this. Shannon's the one that's talking about it more, not him. So it doesn't make sense to me that the non-disbaragement is the sticking clause because it wouldn't necessarily, well, I wonder if they tried to extend it to Alexis too. But it wouldn't necessarily extend to Alexis unless that was by agreement, like through you

Starting point is 01:21:05 or a third party, which might've, that would be really interesting to know if that was the sticking point, that it was non-dispersion by you or another party the same way you can't make threats to somebody directly, but you also can't have a third party threaten somebody either, because then does Alexis have a storyline? What did, actually not.

Starting point is 01:21:24 Yeah. What did you make of in this most recent episode, his lawyers basically saying, yes, we are using this video as blackmail. It's awful. Also, lawyer side of me is like, well, that's not going to play out well in court. Like the attempt to leverage. If you have emails and text messages where she's saying, oh yeah, I do need to pay you back. Yeah, I'll get to it. I'll get to it or whatever they are. That's speculation. We don't know what those say if they exist. So why would you need to leverage something unrelated and embarrassing about someone to get them to do what you want in court? And Emily's not wrong. That attempt to leverage isn't good.

Starting point is 01:22:06 And Shannon, I want to know more what's going on behind the scenes, but I'm sure Shannon's lawyers are having conversations with her about what that looks like. Also, John's lawsuit dropped in March. He knew cameras were up because he's dating Alexis. The statute of limitations, which is the amount of time you have to, you know,

Starting point is 01:22:24 use it or lose it with a lawsuit, is two years, but it doesn't say when in 2020 the loan was supposed to be paid back or when it was made. So it's unclear to me if we were right on the cusp. Sometimes you can see like, oh, the statute of limitation expires tomorrow. That's why they filed this. But it seems that the lawyers were telling her

Starting point is 01:22:44 they were gonna sue her and trying to get the money and ramping up the heat to get her to pay. And that is not going to be liked by a jury if this goes to jury trial. It's incredibly distasteful. Interesting. Why do you think he did what he did? I don't know what statements John ever made

Starting point is 01:23:04 about the video. Because we're John ever made about the video. Cause we're seeing Alexis talking about the video. I don't know how much behind the scenes John is saying to her, well, we've got this receipt. We've got this. Cause Alexis is pulling up receipts on her freaking phone of like the wire transfers. Like is John just using her to plant storyline?

Starting point is 01:23:20 And why isn't she just being like, no, I'm back on the show. I'm gonna talk about me. I'm not talking about some dude I'm dating. How does the show, well how does the legal system take into account the fact that this is playing out on a TV show? Like do they, is this all potential evidence in a way?

Starting point is 01:23:36 Yes, when they say everything can be used against you, they're generally talking about criminal, but we saw this play out in Tom Girardi's criminal trial. The AUSAs played unaired Bravo footage in court to show that Tom Girardi wasn't suffering mentally the way that he said he was. We saw the government in Jen Shaw's criminal case subpoena uncut footage. So yes, it's all going to come up and it's gonna come up in depositions because we're in civil. Alexis is going to be deposed.

Starting point is 01:24:07 What did John say to you? When, how, what? It might open Alexis up for people trying to subpoena her phone email and devices too, because she's inserted herself in the middle of this and now is threatening to release this video to seemingly benefit John. to seemingly benefit John. So if I'm Shannon's lawyers, I'm like, oh, we wanna go there? Fine, we're gonna counter sue Alexis for trying to leverage this and resolve this lawsuit because it seems, based on what we see on the show,

Starting point is 01:24:36 and of course shows can be edited, but it seems that she's trying to leverage it to benefit John, which directly benefits her because they're dating. Yeah, we don't see much of John. We've only seen John on Watch What Happens Live when he sat in the audience a couple weeks ago. Mic'd up?

Starting point is 01:24:48 Yeah, mic'd up, ready to go. I hate being in the spotlight. I don't wanna be on TV. Red carpet debut, Watch What Happens Live. But clearly Alexis, again, it's her storyline, but in addition to it being her storyline, she is the mouthpiece for John. Which is wild to me, because when did they decide to bring Alexis back

Starting point is 01:25:08 on the show? I would imagine it was before she and John started dating. So I feel like it was when they got news that they were dating and they were like, oh, here's drama. Get Andy on the camera. For this season, let's bring her back on. No, yeah, because there was a photo of them

Starting point is 01:25:23 on the boat together and then shortly thereafter, it was like bring her back on. No, yeah, because there was a photo of them on the boat together, and then shortly thereafter, it was like, Alexis is back on Orange County. I gotta say, if the Bravo's executives were smart enough to go to Alexis and John, well, specifically Alexis, and play to their own narcissism of wanting to get back on the franchise, we know how, when it comes to the reckoning of Bravo, it seems to be mostly rooted in disgruntled employees wishing they could still be on TV and as soon

Starting point is 01:25:50 as they're not, they're willing to run their mouths. That might not be across the board, but with a lot of them, it really seems to be about that. And so then you hear you have Alexis who's not on the show, and if Bravo was like, well, if you're willing to do it, we'll let you on. We know they were talking because she was at BravoCon in November. Alexis was there. They did the whole Bravo Awards, the Bravas,

Starting point is 01:26:17 and they gave Vicky like a OG Legacy Award, and they had all or many of the original OC women. So there was an after party from that event and Alexis was at the after party and people were like, wait, is that Alexis Bellino? Like what? I was literally looking at the people I was there with going, wait, is that Joe and Alexis?

Starting point is 01:26:38 Like what is with all the like legacy OC women being at this like after party talking with Andy and Shannon and talking with Andy and Shannon and and talking with Tamara and everybody. So, hey, I love that Bravo cons become central to the storyline, just like your podcast is central to storylines on Bravo. But it was weird to see that she was there right after the DUI and and hanging out with everybody. I just I still do not understand and I don't know anything about John. John tries to present it as if he's smart and successful.

Starting point is 01:27:09 John should go on the Golden Bachelor. Oh my God, I hope. You're like, no, never. Never. Isn't he like 62? I don't know, but what I don't understand, I'm relatively new to Bravo, right, and Housewives in general,

Starting point is 01:27:23 but the more I've been covering it, and Justin, correct me if I'm wrong, Sierra, correct me if I'm wrong, is two OGs who have been following it. Specifically when it comes to Housewives, it sure seems like Bravo Nation, what they love most about their Housewives is authenticity and vulnerability.

Starting point is 01:27:40 And so when you look at right now Shannon, Shannon is being extremely vulnerable. She's messy as fuck. No one's looking at Shannon and thinking necessarily role model. But- Shannon's really raw. Raw, right?

Starting point is 01:27:53 And so, or you look at Jen. People love Jen for just her, man, she just brings it to the table. And she's just like, oh, my life's just kind of just in messes. It's only gonna mess. It feels like Housewife fans aren't looking for perfect, they aren't even looking for aspirational.

Starting point is 01:28:10 I feel like a lot of people watch this, we all have our messy lives, we all have our shit. And I think a lot of these Housewives, like Shannon, like Jen, they make it okay to fuck up. They make it okay to say, and not okay to fuck up, but like, you can move on, you can recover. You don't have to present as this perfect person,

Starting point is 01:28:32 and that's what fans love the most. Which makes me even more surprised the more I understand kind of like how Housewife fans operate that Alexis and John would see that this would work to their benefit. Not at all. It's not going to work to their benefit. Not at all. It's just like all you've done is make Shannon, you've given her an opportunity to be more raw and more vulnerable.

Starting point is 01:28:53 And now instead of being like, yeah, that was the person who got the DUI, like what Shannon is most known for now to me in my head, isn't the DUI. It's this lawsuit that she has to deal with. And they've kind of given her a get out of jail free card in a way of having to deal with this DUI because now she's being so raw about the lawsuit. They just seem like to really have misplayed this.

Starting point is 01:29:18 I agree with you. And I am like an OG Bravo fan from like the first episodes of Orange County because it was sometimes filmed where I was from. So I've watched, I have watched Bravo for longer than I care to admit. But when you're looking at like what's going down in Beverly Hills with everything with Tom Girardi

Starting point is 01:29:37 and Erica Girardi, the women brought it up over and over and over and over again. And there were tons of conversations and nothing Erica could do was really right. Even when she was raw and messy and over and over again. And there were tons of conversations and nothing Erica could do was really right. Even when she was raw and messy and vulnerable, the women are like, right, but they're still these victims of your husband. And then with Shannon's DUI, it came up in a blip

Starting point is 01:29:53 and then it's like, oh, but John's suing me. And then the women are rallying around her to support her and then trying to navigate the fact that not only is Alexis dating John who sued her, but Alexis's ex-husband, Jim Bolino sued both Tamara and Shannon. And Shannon was very candid that that cost her, that lawsuit cost her over $300,000. And that was a three year defamation litigation that was from like a stage comedy show that they had done together,

Starting point is 01:30:24 making jokes when Alexis had been on the show. So this is a very, very raw wound for Shannon. And the legal process in civil courts is exhausting and financially exhausting. And we're seeing Shannon deal with the reality of that while also trying to put an ignition interlock into her car and figure out how to like blow into it to start her car. This was her first DUI. She got a much harsher sentence than like a Justin

Starting point is 01:30:52 Timberlake did, consistent with what her BAC was, but different because she also had the hit and run because she got out of her car and she did run into a building. She also bolted. Her BAC was higher and she did injure herself and could have injured others. But it has shifted the narrative. Alexis has given, or Alexis and Johnny, which is weird to call a 62 year old man Johnny in my opinion, but Alexis and Johnny have given

Starting point is 01:31:16 Shannon a redemption arc. So the season's not focused on girl, you just got a DUI and you're ordering Grey Goose and soda, like what? I can't think there's gonna be anything in this video that was gonna change my mind, unless it's something illegal. Well, she would have been charged for it if it was.

Starting point is 01:31:30 The hit and run was pretty bad. Yeah, and the photos of her injuries are bad. And so everything surrounding that night, I assume, even though we didn't get to witness it all, it was all kinda terrible and all kind of a mess. So I'm just like, what are they holding over her head that they and I kind of feel like the fact that they haven't released it tells me that it's not as like it's it's all bullshit. I feel like I wonder if their lawyers are also like, why is this even coming up? What

Starting point is 01:31:57 are you doing? This is not going to go well. But also people's imaginations can oftentimes be worse than the thing itself. So alluding to there's this like, there's this video, it's going to ruin her is maybe bigger. Well, it's also fascinating when you think about Alexis being on it, not being an actual housewife, just being a friend and not the type of friend that she referred to herself in this episode. But the monetary impact of just being a good Bravo Housewife versus John winning the case. And it's like, yeah, it's really kind of fascinating in that regard because there's, there's money involved just being on the show.

Starting point is 01:32:35 Yes. Right. And opportunity and, and things like that. And, and if this plays out into next season and there's an explosive reunion, how do you opt to not have Alexis back? You've got to finish the tale of that story. So the thing from like early days reality to now is you can see the game being played more,

Starting point is 01:32:52 where it used to just be like, we don't know what this is, we're filming, we don't have social media. Social media and what people are saying has become such a part of the show that we're so far from done with what's going on between them because by the time we get to the reunion,

Starting point is 01:33:06 we're gonna see everything people were saying as it was airing in addition to what people were saying when it was happening. And this lawsuit's not gonna go away by the time the reunion happens unless they agree to settle. But if John wanted to settle, he would have just done it before he filed the lawsuit.

Starting point is 01:33:20 I wonder if he wanted this to be public because if they had settled before the lawsuit got filed, nobody really knows about it, because then you can't talk about it because it's settled. Well, now I hate him, so. I don't think you're alone in that. At the whole time, he's been so worried about his reputation, and it's like,

Starting point is 01:33:33 well, now everyone hates you. It's like the true form of a narcissist, kind of in the sense where it's like, you don't see what you're doing as the bad guy, you see yourself as the good guy no matter what, and that everyone's gonna like jump on board because you're trying to validate your experience, but I'm like, instead, he's done the bad guy, you see yourself as the good guy no matter what, not everyone's gonna like jump on board because you're trying to validate your experience. But I'm like, instead, he's done the exact opposite where I'm like, we wouldn't be talking

Starting point is 01:33:50 about him if Alexis wasn't talking about him this season. And it's like, now I just see you as a bad person, not like no explanation necessary. Yeah, that's a great point. Emily and I were talking at the airport, you were talking about the case that you were going to cover today, not to get into the weeds of it all. But as a former prosecutor and someone who's been in this field for a long time, does it shock you, I guess is the question?

Starting point is 01:34:14 Seems like a lot of these cases involve situations where you thought, how did this person think they were gonna get away with this? The Scott Peterson, we talked about the case that we talked a few weeks ago, him Googling the water currents and things like that. The digital footprint we talked about with Diddy. It's just like I don't know much about law and I don't plan on committing crimes, but it's like don't do it. It's all gonna

Starting point is 01:34:37 come out. It's all gonna come out, you know, and why do you think just criminals in general are people? Not that you're a psychologist, but like, what can you speak to in your experience, what you've witnessed when it comes to, you know, criminals or people just kind of doing things that you would think, why did you think it would play out this way? That's a very complex question. Why do people crime?

Starting point is 01:34:57 Different than the civil lawsuit, because I think that John didn't foresee the PR play. It was like, Shannon owes me money, so I'm gonna get my money. And he didn't think through how that was gonna play out when Shannon has been talking about the fact that she's paid for everything for a couple of seasons now. He didn't think through the PR.

Starting point is 01:35:15 His lawyers didn't think through the PR. I think they looked at it and were like, if we don't sue, we're gonna lose this and maybe the pressure of cameras being up will force a resolution before this comes out. But when you're looking at other kind of aspects of criminality, it used to be that people weren't quite aware

Starting point is 01:35:31 of how accurately their cell phones could be tracked early days, how much information you could get from social media. That's all well known. People really think, oh, they're not gonna catch me. And it depends on the type of defendant. Sometimes it is truly a snap, heat of the moment, where people just absolutely lose control

Starting point is 01:35:51 and don't even know they're making the choice they're making. Or I covered a crazy case that was very meth fueled, don't really have a handle on reality in an altered state, which is separate. Then you've got crimes of opportunity where it's like, well, there's a iPad in the car and the car seems unlocked. I can just grab that. Different than especially fraud crimes.

Starting point is 01:36:11 You know, you're looking at like a Jen Shaw where it's like, no one's gonna catch me. I can outsmart them. And then you get those Tom Gerardies and like, I'm the smartest person in the room and no one's gonna know. And then you look at a Diddy and I have to think that he was like, I would get caught but for this person doing this for me,

Starting point is 01:36:31 that person doing this for me, having the money and the leverage to not get caught and thinking I will always be one step ahead. They didn't pop him for the nightclub shooting. It was just time and time again that he kept getting away with it, and it emboldens people to be like, I'm untouchable and I have the money to make basically anything go away. Yeah. Damn.

Starting point is 01:36:53 It's a very large conversation about why do people do the stuff they do, but when you're looking at persuasion, people really think I'm gonna be the one who's smarter. And fraud defendants that I prosecuted, I really enjoyed like white collar and fraud crimes, would get on the stand and think they were the smartest person in the room.

Starting point is 01:37:10 And I would absolutely let them, and then they would explain to you why they were so smart. And then the jury's like, oh, that's how you did that. That's crazy. That's crazy. All right, outside of the legal stuff with the last week's episode, this question to the household, where did you guys land on Emily versus Heather and that whole drama fight?

Starting point is 01:37:36 I hate to say it because I am usually team fancy pants, but like I'm team Emily right now just because I'm like, I feel like Emily is sharing something that, you know, has been an insecurity of hers. And instead of hearing, you made me feel this way, like just listen to her, Heather, and then validate her feelings, but say that wasn't my intention. But it's like not giving her the space to sit down

Starting point is 01:37:57 and have this conversation in a calm setting and instantly being defensive. I just felt like it was completely unnecessary. I do think the conversation would have gone very differently if Emily would have been like, hey Heather, like, can we go chat over here instead of having fucking Alexis's wackadoodle ass next to her, be like, what did I do to you?

Starting point is 01:38:16 Alexis was the worst this episode. In Heather's defense. I'm a broken bird. Like, I'm going through a lot. I completely get what you're saying, Sierra, but I feel like in Heather's defense, kind of like Natalie's point, when you get called out for something where, like, when you talk about body shaming, not that Heather was body shaming or anything like that, but like Heather

Starting point is 01:38:35 kind of reacted as if she was accused of being insensitive to that. And I think it's very, you know, especially in today's climate, I think I can appreciate why Heather got defensive because in her mind, she's like, what do you even wish? Because she did. She did. In the beginning of the conversation, she was like, I am so sorry. Like that. That was definitely not what you know, I and she did like take accountability in the beginning. And then I don't know where people started getting loud. I don't know if Alexis started chiming in or whatnot. And then I feel like that is when Heather got defensive. So that's why I was saying, I feel like if that didn't happen in the group setting,

Starting point is 01:39:12 it would have been a completely different conversation. I think Emily just wanted to be heard and try to explain something that Heather maybe has never had to experience. And we're seeing a season where Emily has worked really hard and expressed some of that insecurity to Shannon when she was taking photos. But again, I'm an Emily stan. We're seeing a season where Emily has worked really hard and expressed some of that insecurity to Shannon when she was taking photos.

Starting point is 01:39:27 But again, I'm an Emily stan. So it's, I see how she's trying to express herself. And women were compassionate to Shannon last season when she's like, I don't wanna be in a bathing suit. I don't feel good. I don't wanna do this. And I think Emily's asking for the same recognition. Because it is like looking at the situation as an outsider,

Starting point is 01:39:46 it is completely valid what, like you can see it, what Emily, like bringing her, being the only person in jeans. None of the other women wearing that, having Alexis who is, what'd you call her, a giraffe? A tall giraffe, wearing the same dress as you. Like I can see how that can be triggering to someone who has struggled with that before.

Starting point is 01:40:07 And so for it to be such a hostile conversation and for it to get so loud and defensive and angry was very distasteful for me. That Jen scene with her son, it was so sad to have her talk with her son. And ultimately it seemed like Jen's acts is the parent who like lets her kid get him do whatever the hell he wants. So that's why he chooses to live with dad

Starting point is 01:40:32 versus mom in his one bedroom apartment because dad, he doesn't have a, like a kid doesn't care about an apartment or a one bedroom. He's just like, can I keep my door closed constantly without any rules? Yes, great, I want that place. And it was such a sad moment. I really felt for Jen. It's so heartbreaking. I did too, just from being the child of two divorced parents

Starting point is 01:40:52 that I know the second your child is like, can I spend more time with the other parent? Regardless of it being like bad blood or just convenience, like that's a blow for that parent. So like for Jen to put that on TV, I was like, whoa. I'm ready for Jen's like feel good story whenever that parent. So like for Jen to put that on TV, I was like, well, I'm ready for Jen's like feel good story, whenever that is. You know, when she was talking with her son about regrets and about one wishing she could have hustled.

Starting point is 01:41:13 I hope I hope we see something like that in a future where she picks up her own project, you know, she does something, launches a line of some sort, I don't know, but really makes something that's hers and her own. I'm really rooting for that. I would love to do it. I think it was powerful for her too as a mother to support Dawson moving to his dad's. That was a big power move on her end,

Starting point is 01:41:35 to be out of love, I support that. She seems like a good person. I feel like she's doing the best she can, and even then people can make fun of her for her situation and whatnot but I'm like she's the house she's staying in lovely. I feel like yes lovely yeah her kids are taking care of so I'm like at the end of the day like let her figure it out on her own but still but it's more than like just it's more than just money. I you know my mom grew up with five brothers in a very traditional environment where all her brothers

Starting point is 01:42:06 went to college. It was the expectation to go to college. My mom grew up in a fairly privileged, they had a little bit of money. My mom was Cinderella. She was the only girl and she was literally raised to be a mom, to be a homemaker, literally to do chores. My mom has a great life and she's got her 11 kids and blah blah blah blah blah but like what what is still in my mom today is is a drive to have things of

Starting point is 01:42:31 her own you know and that sticks with you and it has nothing really to do with where what her house looks like or whatever it is it is to have that kind of independent feel and I see a lot when I when I watch when I watched Jen this episode, I saw a little bit of my mom in her and it had nothing to do with the house that she was living in. It was just like the sense of something that was hers and the pride behind that.

Starting point is 01:42:57 Because yeah, we're still living, we started at a time, despite our progress when it comes to gender roles and things like that, we're not far removed from people like my mom not having opportunities that her brothers had because she was a woman. Well, and she wasn't allowed to have her own bank account credit card without a man signing on to it. I still am blown away at the fact that women couldn't have credit cards until like the seventies. End of the seventies. Because my mom and I have had that conversation too because my mom, there's times has been like, you've just like gone and done your own thing.

Starting point is 01:43:26 I'm like, uh, yeah, I do my own shit, but I also met my husband when I was 19. So we've been together an incredibly long time, because now we're old, but it's interesting to see not even a generation removed how different it is, and you see Jen getting pulled into some of that, get married to a good man who's got a good job, he was working for her family, what could go wrong? and you see Jen getting pulled into some of that, get married to a good man who's got a good job,

Starting point is 01:43:45 he was working for her family, what could go wrong? And then she was like, I need my own identity and just blew up her life looking for that. And we're seeing the fallout of it, but it's opened up a conversation with Tamara about how hard that's been with her kids. And her kids being estranged either from her or from Simon. And it's brought in a lot of really interesting conversations

Starting point is 01:44:05 about divorce, which is a topic that especially women that age are talking about quite a lot. Yeah. Speaking of Tamara, why is she peeing on concrete and asking to see butt holes? It's like what? I don't know. Sticking her foot and people having foot stuck in her mouth.

Starting point is 01:44:21 Jen's mouth, like feet in her mouth a couple of episodes ago, I was like this. With pie on it. With pie, yeah. What are we doing? Too much. Too much. Exactly, Emily.

Starting point is 01:44:31 Too much. And it's like, I feel like she's putting these women in this position where it's like, like, there's no way Katie wanted to show her butthole to Tamra. Like, come on. But you're putting her in like in front of a bunch of people and like the pressure and it's like, come on, we're just having fun. Yeah, and it's like, don't be lame. And it's like, never will I be laying on a pool table

Starting point is 01:44:50 having my friend stick a finger up my butt for fun. No. Yes. What is going on? It feels like she wants to recapture, like, the old drunk, wild, crazy Trace Amigos, like, 10 years back. And that's, especially with the younger women on the cast, they're like, this is not how we roll,

Starting point is 01:45:07 and this is not what we're doing. And it's interesting to see her kind of trying to figure out, it feels to me like how to be the best housewife, versus maybe the experience she's having in the moment or wants to be having. Right, like, just trying to, like, capture that, like, Tamra, too much personality, but it's like, it's just becoming more and more contrived each season it goes on,

Starting point is 01:45:27 because it's just like, you also want to see people grow and, like, learn from their mistakes and be a little bit better. And I feel like Tamra's just consistent with her, like, out-of-pocket behavior every season. I wonder how it correlates to her podcast success when she's on the show versus off the show. Maybe, uh... I'm just really curious if you're seeing spikes, like we saw all the Vanderpump podcasts spike

Starting point is 01:45:49 during Scandival. I'm just wondering how it correlates and if people, you know, there's the wild behavior on the show and then people want to hear her take on it on the pod and how much of that is driving things now. I would imagine more than she even realizes. Right? Well, Emily, this has been so much fun. It's been so much fun. Thank you guys for having me.

Starting point is 01:46:08 Thank you so much for coming. Please. I hope if you had fun, you will come back and be our unofficial legal correspondent. I mean, I'm down to talk all things pop culture legal. There's a lot of stories that are popping off, and Diddy's not going away anytime soon. Can you please let my audience know where they can find you, talk about your show as well,

Starting point is 01:46:25 and if they're into any of the stuff that you're covering, how can they enjoy it? Absolutely, you can find me on social at the Emily D. Baker. When there are trials of interest going on, I do gavel to gavel coverage. That means I am live giving live legal commentary that sometimes runs to the nature of like MMA color commentary, screaming at the attorneys,

Starting point is 01:46:44 but live legal commentary over those trials on YouTube. I also have an app, the Lawnard app, where you can stay in the loop with everything I'm breaking down from the ditty of it all to the real housewives cases to Tom Girardi getting sentenced to prison, question mark, in December. So we'll see. All right.

Starting point is 01:47:01 Well, thank you so much for coming, guys. Thank you for listening. Tomorrow, again, the episode of Going Deeper, the podcast with Whitney Rose is out tomorrow. Reality recap on Thursday. Elizabeth Wagmeister of CNN, along with Mary Bonnet of Selling Sunset. Plus we get into Real Housewives of Salt Lake City,

Starting point is 01:47:20 The Golden Bachelorette. So much to get into. We'll see you then. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Starting point is 01:47:29 Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Starting point is 01:47:35 Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Starting point is 01:47:42 Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Okay, it's official. We are very much in the final sprint to Election Day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances, it can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with. I'm Brad Milky, I'm the host of Start Here, the daily podcast from ABC News, and every morning my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand, with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your

Starting point is 01:48:09 day. So kickstart your morning, start smart with Start Here and ABC News, because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming.

The Viall Files - E814 - Golden Bachelorette’s Jack & the Legal Breakdown of Diddy, Devin, and Shannon w/ Emily D Baker

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