The Viall Files - E9 Dr. Alisa Angelone

Episode Date: February 27, 2019

This week I’m joined by Dr. Alisa Angelone, who has a Ph.D. in clinical psychology, to dive into the inner recesses of my mind. It's enlightening to say the least. We talk about the stigma around therapy, discuss those by-the-book hometown dates from The Bachelor, and talk with a fan whose parents have been married and divorced three times. Let’s get vulnerable.If you have any sex or dating questions, send them to [e-mail]! We’d love to have you on the show.Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're crazy. another episode of the vile files. Uh, very excited about this episode. Uh, today, uh, we're going to talk about mental health. Uh, I have a very special cohost with me, uh, Lisa Angeloni. You did great.

Yay. Applause. Um, she was really coaching me on how to correctly pronounce her last name. And then immediately I got nervous and got anxiety about getting it right. We're going to talk about that, too. She is a doctor. She has a PhD in clinical psychology.

I do. Do you want to elaborate on that? I know you can make it sound smarter than I can. I have my PhD. I got my doctorate in clinical psychology. My specialty is cognitive behavioral therapy for anxiety and depression. So it basically means I went and did a ton. I have a ton of education.

After college, I went and I got my master's. I got my PhD. I did an internship. I did a postdoc. All kinds of fun stuff. That is a lot of work. She's very smart. I have so many questions.

And the goal, and we're going to bounce around a little bit because I also want to talk about some other stuff that gave me anxiety over the weekend. But my goal, I thought we've talked a little bit about mental health in our previous episodes. I have never seen a psychologist. We've talked a little bit about mental health in our previous episodes. I have never seen a psychologist. Well, that's not true in the sense that on The Bachelor, the screening process, you have to talk to, I think she's a psychologist. I don't know her medical background, but she is a practicing, I don't know. There are so many different ways you can be a therapist. Sure.

So I don't know exactly what she is. And then you always have an exit interview. So whenever you get your heart broken or if you end up in a relationship before you get kind of sent on your way, they kind of. So that's my only experience with that. But I thought it would be interesting to talk about therapy in general and kind of get a better understanding of what it is. I think things like depression, anxiety are words that have become more prevalent and talked about more. But I do think, and I will admit that I think sometimes with people, people sometimes think of therapy as a sign of weakness. I don't even know if that's, whether that's with men or women.

I feel like the stereotype might be that women are more open or willing to go to therapy, but guys shouldn't or can. And if they do, then they must be really, I don't know. That's like a, growing up, that's a stereotype that I had about it. Or if I went to therapy, I probably would have felt embarrassed to admit that I have had it. That Michael Phelps thing, remember? That ad that just came on where Michael Phelps admitted that he went to therapy. And that was like a huge thing because men were saying that they could never admit that they went to therapy.

So I think that is true, right? That it's a little bit more of a stigma that men can't have mental health problems. When I got my heart broken a couple times before the show. Before the show. And then as the show went on. I was like, I fucked up about it. My mom was like, maybe you should go talk to someone.

I was like, well, what do you think is like, really? I was offended by the suggestion that I, that I should. There are many, I think there's many reasons why I think, I think people feel uncertain. They're not clear on what therapy is, what it will look like. What kind, what kind of questions they'll be asked, what even the room will look like. People have kind of an idea of it as being this like Freudian, you lay on a couch and somebody just listens and you just have to blabber on. And that's not how all therapy looks like. That's not what all therapy sessions are like. And I think there's extra on top of that, there's the added idea that men aren't supposed to feel their feelings. Like societally,

men aren't supposed to expose and be open and be vulnerable with their emotions. And so thinking about going to a space to talk to somebody about those emotions or those vulnerabilities feels hard to do. It feels hard to start that process to say, I'm going to go to a therapist. I'm going to talk about what's bothering me versus I'm just going to kind of stuff it in and hope that it resolves. Nick, how come you've never been to a therapist? I think maybe part of it is probably that. I mean, I grew up in the Midwest.

I think it's like I moved out to LA. Everyone talks about therapy. It's like your therapy is like you have an accountant, you have a lawyer, and you have a therapist in LA. That's not the case in Milwaukee. Yeah, I think definitely growing up, there was this, well, I'm not crazy. Oh, crazy equates to therapy. I think that was the perception of, well, I have problems, but certainly I worry about things.

This is probably my brain thinking, well, I'm not crazy. I definitely feel like that's probably a stereotype that still even exists to this day. And maybe, I don't know how other men feel about it, but I definitely, I know I probably was, I would have been nervous to. I actually did my dissertation on stigma around mental health. And I would say that, yeah, people are hesitant to go because they're worried that there's something kind of wrong with them. Or maybe that there's something not wrong enough.

Well, what does that mean? Like you're saying, like, I'm not crazy, so I don't need a therapist. No, what does not wrong enough mean? That's what I mean. Like, if I'm not crazy, then why would I need therapy? Does that make sense? Kind of. Like, it makes it real sometimes, too.

Like, they have the perception that the only people that need a therapist are people who are clinically, you know, super, super, super depressed. Like they can't get out of bed. Or they can't go to work. Or they are schizophrenic. You know, there's plenty of reasons that people. Right? Like I can figure my shit out. Yeah.

I have to tell you guys, the first time I went to therapy, the first time I sort of thought it was strange. The second time I had this sort of realization, like I can talk about myself for a full hour and someone's going to listen to me. And it was amazing. A lot of people find it freeing. The idea that someone's going to listen to me talk for an hour and I can say anything I want was unbelievable. But maybe this is sort of, I'm from California.

I'm from this sort of very open house where we talk about everything. You know, it's a very different dynamic. I learn a lot, you know, on this show about, you know, people from other places. And, you know, people from the Midwest. It's very different. I didn't know that. I think maybe that's why. Because I very different. I didn't know that. I think maybe that's why, because I liked being,

I didn't like it, I mean, but I kept going back on the show because it's like a therapy session. You were going to talk about your mom's campaign. I mean, I'm looking at a few cameras,

you're on the other side of the camera and be like, well, how does that make you feel? Well, let me tell you. I'm going to tell you right now. Well,

how did it feel to tell them? No, it's funny because when we were, I had this conversation with Chris Soules after my first time on Andy's season. He lived in Iowa, or lives in Iowa, in Chicago. I was living in Chicago at the time, and he came to Chicago.

And we were kind of talking about how, like, you know, I remember asking, I don't know if he asked me or I asked him, but it was like, hey, do you kind of miss it? You know, like being in that crazy world because it was like, it was this ability to like, it was the ITMs we talked about missing. The ITMs are like the in the moment interview. No matter whatever you're doing on these dates,

you would then go take a timeout and you would sit like this in a camera and the producer would be right there and you would have a conversation. Sometimes when you do pickups and they'd be like, okay, fine, we need to talk about your hometown date or whatever, but lots of times it would be like, producers get their job, they just get you to talk. And it's like, wow, that was,

they're like, let me tell you a story. Let me tell you a story about when I was fucked up and i was vulnerable and we're not gonna record anything i'm saying that's how they get it right because you're like well you're being so honest with me right now wow they thank for you thanks for sharing and like yes we're recording oh you're gonna say that well well let me tell you my truth you know like and then you're like you watch the show but like i was just i was just talking about this thing and i was relating to him and i was like what the fuck and i'm like you know um but there is that vulnerability and openness feels free other people feel

but also to that point we did chris and i talked about how we missed it because it it was good to get things out yeah it was good to like, be like, well, fuck, I'm just going to cry right now, man. Like, and, and, and, and everyone around me is like, Oh, what a beautiful moment. Way to, way to, way to, way to go. We're going to play some real shitty music. Right now you are the man. You're the man. Um, well, it's kind of freeing to be able to talk about your emotions. We're able to talk about the health of the man. You're the man. Well, it's kind of freeing to be able to talk about your emotions. We're able to talk about the health of our bodies. We're able to talk about medical problems that we have, medications that we're taking.

We get to talk about all of those kinds of things. They're not stigmatized. And you shouldn't feel stigmatized about what's going on in your head, what's happening with your emotions, what's happening with your thoughts. That's also health. We call it, it's mental health. It's also a part of being able to feel good. Yeah. Well, I also think about too, as I became more aware of things like mental health, why I started natural habits with essential oils when I started using them, because I was just like riddled with anxiety. My sister's a holistic nutritionist. I've talked about this. And again, before I go see a therapist and before I medicate myself, I was trying to find alternative forms of helping myself out. But it's just the concept of people are so

fine with things like diet and exercise, right? So your physical well-being, your emotional and mental well-being, you know, like it's the concept of I'm going to exercise and eat right to like be physically healthy and feel like my best self. Everyone gets that. But like you can be, you can do things to make sure you have the best emotional well-being and mental well-being that take work, that takes work. Like exercising your emotions in your mind is quite honestly, probably no different than making sure you have a six pack

abs. You know, you can have the six pack abs and kind of be emotionally fat or emotionally, you know, malnourished or whatever. Malnourished might be a better, yeah. Yeah, right? It's probably more of that. I'm rich with emotions. But I do think, and that's kind of why I wanted to have this, just kind of break down those walls of the stereotypes

of what can we do to improve our emotional and mental well-being besides using natural habits essential oils of course but yeah in addition to and and breaking and breaking that down and just kind of having that conversation because I do I I talk about my anxiety a lot I you know growing up I, I always joke because like, if people ask me if I'm an introvert or extrovert, and I honestly, I honestly don't know. Because at times I can be very extroverted. I like crowds. Sometimes I like, I love a big city. I love the energy of people. And then sometimes when I'm in crowds, I feel like I'm suffocating and I can't talk to anyone. And I have a bunch of people walking up to me saying,

what's wrong with you? Why aren't you having any fun? And I just like will tense up. And I feel like my chest, like it's going to explode. And then sometimes I'm like, I just have to leave. And I honestly, like, I think to myself, I don't know why I feel this way. I don't know what's going on.

I can think of maybe a few things that I'm worrying about or something, but generally I don't know why I feel the way I do. But I do think that sometimes I start feeling better when someone around me is willing to take the time to talk to me or whatever it is, and then I will feel better. Well, we try to do our own brand of therapy with our friends right like yeah we try to talk to our friends we try to talk out our emotions we try to talk about experiences situations and sometimes you just need a kind of an outside eye and somebody who has other kind of coping skills and talking about

it with your friends is fantastic it's wonderful but at times you need somebody to kind of come in almost like a trainer um to tell you to do stuff that you may not have thought about friends can also give you bad advice they can absolutely give you bad advice and you can get set in the course of co-rumination so like just dwelling on the same stuff over and over and over without any product i i i'm a dweller and I loop. Yes, rumination. That's what it's called? That's what it's called. I will loop and loop and loop and loop and loop.

About any particular things or just everything? Here's the interesting part about rumination. It'll like fuck me up. The interesting thing about rumination is it's the idea that you get stuck obsessively kind of over and over in that loop. You get stuck in your thoughts. You get stuck in hypotheticals. You get stuck in what ifs. And you don't get out.

And the part of what makes it feel productive is you're like, I'm thinking about all the things that could go wrong in this scenario. Like this has to be productive, right? I plan for the worst all the time. Yes, but does the worst ever really happen? Of course not. Also, none of it matters. Does worst ever, so we're always, we're spending all of this energy.

Like, I'm kind of a hypochondriac too. All right. I think so. All right, we're getting it all out. I like it. Only about things that can potentially kill me. What's weird is I'm not a germaphobe. I bite my nails.

I never get sick. I'm not like, I'm kind of messy. The first time I had sex, I was certain I had AIDS. I was like, well, I had sex. I have AIDS. I also was certain. First, it was like, you know I was grew up very Catholic Catholic guilt's a real thing you know and the only the only way to not get pregnant or get an STD is

abstain from sex so as soon as you like you know you like some shame and guilt you do it you're just like I'll never forget and And then I was definitely a warrior. The first time I'm thinking about this story. Because also like trying to get a girl pregnant. Or not trying. Wow, I didn't know that you were there. So many little nicks running around the world. I am now.

I am now. Are you now? You're trying? I know. I want to. This is so exciting. I know. Tell us more.

I had a conversation recently. I was hanging out with a younger lady and what does that mean wait there's a lot let's stay on let's stay on track here

there's so many levels you're the one who's off track I'm like shaking right now he's trying to get a program but she's younger but I was like I really want to have a family

and I want to put you know like I I'm trying to set myself up for success. Anyways, so this is my looping in my neuroses, even from an early age. Okay.

And I'm a worrier and I think of the worst. And so when I have younger siblings, I can't believe I'm telling this story. I was still a virgin. I can't believe I'm telling the story. I was still a virgin. And so I was like 17 or 18. And I would have to babysit sometimes my younger siblings. And babysitting for me was just put on a Disney movie.

Yeah. I'm a parent. And sometimes for me, caring for my child. And as a horny teenager at 17, I was a senior in high school. I don't know if it was junior or senior. I don't know. And there's this girl we were messing around we were messing around buddies

and and earlier in the day I I enjoyed the company of myself that's a great way to put it and to completion

thank you for that extra information well it's important That's a great way to put it. And to completion. Thank you for that extra information. Well, it's important. It's important in the story. I understand. It's important in the story. And, you know, like any normal person, I was pretty, like, washed my hands and shit, whatever.

And maybe, like, eight or nine hours later that night, she came over. And while my siblings are watching The Lion King or some shit, I take her up to my bedroom and we start messing around. Go away to third base, you know, for, you know, different than Sue, by the way. This wasn't Sue. Yeah, yeah, great. But I think this is after I learned.

Anyways, we're putting our hands in places. Like we're, you know, I don't know. And basically we finished. Like we, I don't know if we actually finished, but we stopped going to third base. And then like, for whatever reason, like the next day I was just literally just going about my day. And all of a sudden out of nowhere,

this thought came into my head. And it was just, well, I masturbated in the afternoon I finished and then I messed around with her and I you know I put my could she be pregnant oh my god and for at least a month I was truly terrified uh that she I was like like trying to think about like how much did i wash my hands did i and i for the next three weeks i'm checking calendar i would call her up and be like so uh how you feeling you know i was so i was oh my god i was like even thinking about it i was truly terrified and just but just thinking about like all the shit of like, if I latch onto a thought, whatever that thought is, I can snowball that thought into an atomic bomb.

That's kind of twofold, right? About how sex education has really failed you. And then also- Exactly. Yes. I mean, I think- More about like, I can get that thought. Or just like watching a movie about like someone

who gets sick of cancer and they talk about like I can get that thought or just like watching a movie about like someone who gets sick of cancer and they talk about uh uh like symptoms and I'm just like my back does hurt yes it's even harder next thing I'm 11 it's even harder in the age of being able to like look that up and it always goes to the worst case scenario kind of place. It's like, it's cancer. It's this, it's that. Like, it's always, it's a bad idea to Google yourself. To self-diagnose is not always the best idea.

But I do think... It's always, no matter what. In every single one. It's always cancer. Are you sure you're not Jewish? I feel like you're one of my people. I feel like this is just what we're learning. I have, and AIDS. Yeah, always. Yes. Are you sure you're not Jewish? I feel like you're one of my people. Like, I feel like this is just what we're learning. I have,

I have, yes, the, Yes. You've got the guilt. Yeah, it's guilt and like hypochondrias, hypochondrias, I'm like hypo,

being a hypochondriac. My grandma, not Phyllis, my grandma, she's a doomsdayer. I think it comes from that side of the family. She's super Catholic,

which is great. My grandma would go to holy hour every day. And at the time I thought every day, I didn't know what that was. But holy hour is something she just did. It was for an hour. She would go to church and pray for an hour. She made it up? I guess.

She called it her holy hour. And I was like, grandma's going to holy hour. I'm like, that sounds intense. But like, and then like every other week we'd like, she'd give us this VHS tape of like, you need to watch this. And it was basically about the end of the world. Oh, my God. There may be some seeds in there of where you started thinking about

the worst case scenario. I love my grandma. But she would always pray for me. That was very kind of her. She's one of my biggest fans, and she's also very very she's she's one of my biggest fans and she's great and when i did days i was at did i do days of her life which which soap opera did i do a soap opera she was very thrilled i'm sure well i think so anyways what you're talking about is is rumination what you're talking about is worry. And when worry gets out of control, right?

All the time. Yeah. So you're talking about you can find a little seed of something that might spark some anxiety in you. And then you keep rolling and rolling and rolling. You keep swirling and swirling and swirling around it where new things are coming on board. And you're thinking about new ways

you should be scared of that. You should be fearful. It's going to be the worst. And you start thinking, what is possibly the worst case scenario? I need to be prepared for the worst case scenario. And part of the problem with that is it's not productive. It usually doesn't really get you anywhere. And it feels productive in the moment. Yeah. And it feels productive in the moment. It makes you think, I am figuring it all out. I'm making sure that I'm prepared for whatever happens.

Putting a plan together. And the problem with that is when we get stuck in it is that we are actually just feeding the anxiety and it's just getting worse and worse and worse. We're not touching the thing that we're actually anxious about and we're not touching the thing that was the seed that made you fearful. You're just swirling and swirling and swirling around it, considering the worst case scenario. And when you actually think about what the worst case scenario is, then thinking about what would I do if the worst case scenario

actually happened? Would I be okay? Would I be able to cope? These are things that we forget when we're stuck in that loop. Well, that's what I do. I think of the truly worst. But what is the truly worst? I'm such a hypocrite too because I always tell people that nothing really matters except for death and taxes. So I was just like, well, anything that can kill me.

And I just assume that at some point I'm just waiting to wake up one day and die'm just waiting to wake up one day and die when do you wake up one day and die? if you're someone who's truly like trapped in your head with like impulsive thoughts or something like that

is it possible to connect with someone else? like I mean if Nick is looking for a girlfriend but he's sort of swirling around in his own head because this is all fascinating. Like, how do you then listen and connect with another human? Well, it's hard to attend to somebody else when you're thinking about all the worst case

scenario things that could be happening. It's hard to, the energy that you're spending there is not energy that you can spend anywhere else. Of course. But I do think my singleness sometimes plays a role. I'll have time on my hands to ruminate. Yeah. Well, I think dating…

What do you mean, no? You disagree or you're being sarcastic? No, I disagree. I don't think that we should think like being in a relationship is going to fix our… No, no. I don't think it's… No, he has too much time, he's saying. I don't think it's…

But I think you actively need to work on it. Like I spend an hour every morning working on my mental health because I'm the same way, Nick. I write for eight minutes, then I tear it up, and then I meditate, and then I say mantras in the mirror. And I have to because I'm just like Nick. I go over and over, and I have to train my brain to not be like that. And it requires practice. And so it's good that you do it every day. And I think there are two ways that you can kind of look at anxiety thoughts.

One, you can say, what am I really feeling anxious about? And that's kind of probably what you're doing when you're writing it down. And then when you rip it up, you kind of decide, okay, I don't need to have this. And that's kind of a symbolic way of saying, I don't need to buy into this. These are what they are, but I don't need to buy into this. These are what they are, but I don't need to buy into the thoughts. And in cognitive behavioral therapy, the way you think, the whole idea behind it is that the way you think impacts how you feel. And that can be said in any kind of situation. So how you think about, say somebody asks you on a date, you can take it one

of three ways, right? You can say, oh, I like getting to know new people. That'll be fun. That would be a positive way that you would feel about it. I do that sometimes. You do that sometimes. Sometimes. Another way would be like, this could be good or bad, but I'll do it.

That's more neutral. I also do that. Or it could be, I'm a failure. I'm miserable. Nobody will like me. This won't go well. And that's a negative way of thinking about it. And that perspective that you take on it, it really colors how you feel about it.

And so the idea behind cognitive behavioral therapy is that you identify what that thought is and you say, OK, if I'm saying this is going to be miserable and it's going to be awful and no one will like me, what's the accuracy of that? Like, is that actually true? And another way of dealing with those thoughts is saying, okay, I had that thought. It's not serving me. It doesn't make me feel better. It's not useful. And when I really look at it, that's's not true I have tons of people around me who like me I've had other people in my life who have liked me and I've had relationships with and so I don't need to buy into that thought and that's probably what you're doing when you're

ripping it up is saying I'm not going to buy into this this isn't something just because I have the thought doesn't mean that I need to accept it as something that's real and rational. Sure. Well, yeah, I think that's a great point. As I've gotten older and people, when I'm at my worst, I try to do selfless acts. I found, at least with me, when I am at my worst, I'm having selfish thoughts. And by selfish, I mean like I'm just thinking about my needs and what I want or my insecurities and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Especially when it comes to the friend thing or whether people like me or don't like me

or the person who ghosts or whatever. Or just people don't meet your expectations. And that could just be like every interaction you have with someone, there's an expectation of, especially when it comes to who I struggle with, I'm a very loyal person. Loyalty matters to me. It's one of your values. It's a value of mine.

And I put a lot of weight on that. And other people don't. So I constantly get disappointed about that. I have to remind myself that everyone has their own shit and we're all being selfish with our thoughts. So even though I'm offended or hurt or think that their actions are a reflection on how they think about me or myself as a human, I just remind myself they just don't give a shit, which is helpful in a sense that we all just have have other, we all have other shit going on. It's not a, and I remind myself that too.

Like sometimes it'll happen where we'll be like, well, this bothered me. And you'll, you'll try to, you'll have a conversation and be like, oh, well I just was, I just was doing this. You're like, oh, I just thought you, oh, great. You know, I was, I almost killed myself thinking that you thought this about me. I think it's true. Great. I'm glad I didn't.

So glad I checked. It's really hard. We try to look for meaning, like right with ghosting, right? We try to look for meaning. We're like, why did that happen? And human beings are special in the way that we can think about the past, we can think about the future, and we can kind of synthesize those and consider all of those things. And so when somebody disappoints us, when somebody's not loyal, when somebody just leaves, or even when

they don't, when we might misinterpret the way somebody's feeling, we have an automatic response to just look inward, to be like, what did I do? How did I screw this up? Like, why is it my fault? Well, the problem is like control what you can control. So what can I fix? Yes, what can I control? What can I do?

That's the problem. I try to be self-aware. I do realize that I think sometimes my attempt at self-awareness is a defense mechanism to, if I can beat you to the punch in terms of judging me then I won't be judged you know but I but I might say that you you it sounds like you probably judge yourself anyway oh my god yeah so that's a it's an actual thought of like well I'll just hate me first yeah um and that way if someone but if someone's like, well, you know, you're annoying. I'm like,

no, I know. Yeah. Yeah. No, I know. I told myself earlier, you can't, you know. We can accept a diversity of the way people think of us, but I don't think you have to buy into the idea that you are annoying. You may be annoying to some and that's more neutral and realistic. Not everybody likes us all the time and we're not everybody's people. Sometimes I meet people and they're like, you're not my person. And I feel the same way. I find you very dissatisfied. It's like guttural.

You can feel it. You meet somebody and you say, you're just not my person. You're not my kind of people. And that's okay. I can be a big personality at times. And sometimes if I just let myself be myself, I will leave situations, like groups of people, and I'll sit in my car and be like, all right, what just happened? Like how? Well, then you're getting into reviewing. How was I? You're worrying. You're getting into rumination. Are they talking about me?

How was I? You're worrying. Are they? You're getting into rumination again. Are they talking about me? Yes. Like, wow, was I funny? Was I interesting? Would they bring me back?

Was I a cool hang? Was I a bad hang? You're buying into rumination again. It sounds really exhausting to me now. It is exhausting. It's an exhausting cycle. Do you feel exhausted by it? Yeah.

Is that social anxiety that he's talking about? In part, yeah. It's like the idea that you're worrying about the way people think about you. And it may not show up in every atmosphere. You might feel like you're experienced in one setting, and you're like, okay, I'm cool with the social setting there. But at the end of the day, you're thinking, what are they all thinking of me?

Do they like me? They probably hate me. I'm imagining you have some negative thoughts when you when you're considering whether they like you yeah you're not like have you seen the movie anger management i very long ago i haven't even seen the whole thing okay good i'm glad you read it i'm glad you read it it's his mom the opening scene the opening scene is Adam Sandler on an airplane and and he they air it as if in his state of mind he's very calm

and everyone else is like kind of like why are you acting this way kind of like it's just like he and I constantly often in my life feel like it's like is everyone else taking crazy pills And I constantly often in my life feel like, it's like, is everyone else taking crazy pills and I'm the sane person?

Or am I the crazy person and I don't understand what everyone else? What if neither of those are true? I don't know. What if neither of those are true? Has this all gotten worse since you've had pressure as a celebrity? That's a great question. No.

Really? I've always been this way. With me, the whole joke is like, you know, I get defensive like, oh, fourth time's a charm. Nick's been on the show forever. Well, you know, you know what? I haven't. But more people have been on since me.

But like because I was such a prominent character in every season I was like there's this Chris Bukowski guy but kind of kept going on as like jumping the shark that is bring him on for an episode just like a gag but like I was you know the perception was I just kept going back on the show in this desperation to find love I have this

anxiety about like you know for someone who goes on the show I judge I definitely judge myself for having gone on the show. Like I, I judge, I definitely judge myself for having gone on the show as many times. I'm like, I've said this on other episodes. I've always worried about when it comes to me dating someone, uh, I'm not worried about the fan. Um, I just assume the type of woman I'm interested in would and I've always thought this I thought this is I remember thinking about when Andy broke up with me what my dating life might might be like going forward and I remember thinking to myself the woman I'll be interested in will either not give

a shit about the show just won't will be generally indifferent or judge me for it and judge you negatively as well yes what it wouldn't won't won't necessarily be like oh my god you put on will be generally indifferent or judge me for it. And judge you negatively is what you think. Yes. Won't necessarily be like, oh my God, you put on the match. That's okay. I assume she wouldn't have that, right? But maybe it's just a part of your journey.

Whether they think positively about it or negatively about it or enjoyed watching it or disliked you in viewing an edited version of you um i just assume that i have to like part of your journey explain myself i know this is such an easy thing to say but like do you think that you care too much what people think about you like because of course i also say what other people care about me is none of my business i really try to it's

such an easy thing to say like who gives a shit what people think about them but like truly yeah here's what i always thought my problem well one of my problems was because my dear friend ben higgins and everyone you know the dear sweet i know of him are you saying that in a real way is he yeah he's a good friend he seems like a nice really nice guy yeah i will sometimes criticize ben of always being on yeah he's very safe with his words. He's a natural politician. I don't even mean that as a bad way. He's also incredibly genuine. He isn't full of shit. He is a very genuine person. When you hang out with Ben privately, I've enjoyed it because sometimes he's a little bit more- Dark. Sure, but like- I want it to be a little bit more dark not even sure but like yeah you know i want it to be a little bit i don't even

want to say more real because he is genuinely a genuine guy but he is very self-conscious about making sure he's not offending anyone or any and and and he does it sincerely out of respect for people i on the other hand kind of have this like fuck it mentality. I'll just say it and I'll worry about it later. And then I fucking like opine over about like what I did say and then worry about it. And rehearse and think about what you could have said better. It's just like, why don't I just like fucking play it safe like Ben and then that way, and then I. I have, well, I have one thought of that as thinking about psychology in that way. I have another thought about that

as viewing you as the Bachelor. In the Bachelor series, I enjoyed the fact that you kind of said what all of us were thinking. You were not afraid to be a little snarky and not afraid to call it like it is. Generally, I'm proud that I did that. I don't have regrets,

but at my worst, I will let it let it bug me yeah but maybe you were being genuine and maybe you were being yourself and maybe people will see that as genuine and kind of like i enjoy a snarky let's let's look at this and see what's wrong and what's good about it and the critical eye versus a politician's kind of eye like ben does i mean not that it's better i have talked about this because you truly don't know what other people are experiencing too

because like the average fan will come up to me with something that's sensitive to me and we joked about this last week with Nikki is a fan who will come up to me in an attempt to try

and to really relate to me will say, I have always liked you. Yeah. I've always liked you too. Does that make you feel bad? Or people be like, you know,

I don't know why other, I don't know why everyone doesn't like you, but I do. I'm sure that could probably be said of Ben and Crystal and all the other ones. Well, and I'll be standing right next to Ben

and be like, oh, you are the sweetest. But then I, and this happened, I was next to Ben and then, but the, you know, what Ben next to ben and then but the you

know ben what ben will get is i never thought you were boring you know like you know like i had this conversation where it's just like i'm worried about like everyone thinking ben is perfect and like i'm what if what if you not being perfect is what makes you interesting or attractive no it's what makes him interesting. Right? I'm just being honest with my thoughts here. I appreciate that. I have a question about The Bachelor, though.

Did you have a difficult time being The Bachelor? Because you couldn't really be critical in those moments. You couldn't. What do you mean critical? Like, I feel like part of what was so intriguing about you in The Bachelorette was that you could kind of say, like, this guy, I don't know what he's into. You could kind of give some comments. On Paradise, I gave a lot of commentary. You could give some commentary.

Harder to do as the lead because you can't do that to the women suitors. Right. Absolutely. You're not competing with them. Yeah, we sort of get a great chorus always on every season totally yeah you were our yeah you were emerges as the greek chorus and you were our greek chorus you totally were and you you yes it comes across as judgmental then with the women and you have to be careful around um it's harder to do and and you know like i i ultimately was

cast as the bachelor because of the success i had on Paradise. And I had success on Paradise because of that. And my ability to bring some comedy to the Paradise. Hard to do as the lead because it kind of comes across as extra dickish. It does. Extra dickish. I mean, yeah, if you're saying like, I'm not really sure if I'm into this woman. And you almost kind of can't say that, I imagine. Like even if you're kind of not into somebody

you can't really say so yeah no it's hard to do like or like you know we'll we can talk we'll talk about the like hometown is the perfect like always at this point

of the season you know when people are sincere and you know it's just like you're about to tell me you're falling in love with me and what I really want to be

like really are you okay we've hit the right date where you're supposed to tell me yeah well here it comes. Three, two, one. I'm falling in love with you.

Did you feel pressure to do that too, though? Did you do that? No. As a lead, you don't feel that pressure. In The Bachelorette, did you do that? No. And again, I do think there are some people who are getting sucked into the atmosphere. And there's some people are.

And it's always like Cassie's a perfect example is I remember thinking I could tell Andy I'm falling for her certainly. And I certainly could probably tell Andy I love her because I'm losing. But I was just like, I'm not doing it now. I'm going to wait. I want it to be special. With Andy, I actually told her in the ocean when we were off mic and we had to re-record like what you saw, if you were to go back and watch Andy's season, my affirmation of I love you, we redid. How awkward.

I still killed it. And humbly speaking. No, because I wanted to, it meant a lot to me. I really felt those ways. And I remember like being in the ocean with her and we were, you know, it meant a lot to me. I really felt those ways. And I remember like being in the ocean with her and we were, you know, it was a really hot moment. Did she say it back to you? She actually said, and this was part of the whole,

like me being all fucked up about it because we were off mic and I said, I love you. And she goes, I wish I could say things back. And I took that as, okay, like we're off mic. So like no one needs to even hear me say this, but I wish I could say it back. And I was like, she loves me. You know, like, but I think, you know,

so I think there's some people who really feel those feelings and because they know they feel that way, they don't feel pressure from producers or whatever, because it's like, I know I do. It's sincere. So I'm going to do it when I find it. It's not a move. It's not a move.

It's how they feel. And, you know, sometimes there will be the, well, you know, you don't want to leave with any regrets. So you don't want to get sent home. And my response was always like, well, if she sends me home, then I don't want her to keep me around because I've said I love her.

And she, in particular, if she sends me home, she doesn't love me. So I don't want her to keep me around because I've said I love her and she clearly she sends me home she doesn't love me so I don't understand that logic but sure also I was like I'm not going home like not until the end not until like listen we know my role like Alisa, I have a question for you. Yeah, yeah. So with all of these, this talk about, you know, these thoughts that swirl around in Nick's head, which seem very exhausting. Do I need therapy?

That was not my question. Can I? Yes, that was the second question. But what are some like coping tips? What does someone do now with this? Yes, therapy, obviously. Therapy is a great option. But during the day, what can Nick be doing other than rubbing oils on his head?

That can help too. Anything that. No, I'm not. I'm sorry. We all do that. We all use natural. I started meditating. Yes.

Meditation is great. Relaxation, which may include oils, if that's your jam. But also challenging your thoughts and thinking about whether… What does that mean? Challenging your thoughts is the idea that you identify where this started, right? You identify what you're having. If you're getting in your car and you're saying, they all don't like me.

I just left that and now I'm swirling the drain on whether or not they enjoyed my presence, whether or not they thought what I said was smart, whether I screwed up somehow. Those thoughts aren't helping you right then, okay? They're not, and you can challenge your thoughts in that way to say, did they seem like they enjoyed my company? Would they have faked it? Why would they want to fake it? Have I had this experience before where I thought somebody hated me and actually they didn't at all?

Is kind of pushing up against those thoughts and saying, what's the likelihood that all these things that I'm thinking that are the worst case scenario actually true? Can I ask a question? Absolutely. Okay. So I, I think everyone walks around with their own thing, whatever it may be. Right. So you think yours is the worst and then you, we all walk around with our own thing. Mine is not anxiety. Okay. But I want to tell us what yours is. Yes. I have chronic migraines. Okay. But so mine is physical, but not emotional, but I have a lot of empathy for what everyone's going through. But it sounds to me like that is as exhausting as what he's dealing with. Well, and that's why some people hesitate to do it. They say, if I interact with what I'm worried about, won't that also be exhausting?

But actually, the experience of ruminating, so going around and around and around, is avoiding what you're really anxious about. Okay. And so getting into what you're really anxious about, so wondering if people like me, things that are kind of deeper questions like that, are actually touching the thing that you need

and becoming more productive. Rumination is an unproductive process where you just go around and around and around. Of course it's exhausting. It doesn't have an end. It does not have an end. When you challenge those thoughts, then you're really getting to the meat of it. You're touching it. You're not trying to avoid those experiences or those feelings or those thoughts. You're actually going and meeting them and seeing if they're actually scary. And most people realize when they actually touch those things

that they're not scary. Another way you can deal with it is, I kind of think about it like the Marie Kondo. You know, have you all watched Marie Kondo? The art of tidying up or whatever? I've not. It's on Netflix. It's on Netflix.

It'll change your life and your closet. Actually, it'll give me anxiety because I'm so terrible at that. It'll just make me be like. Yes. Well, so. This is how my life could be. Marie Kondo has this idea that you kind of like take out all your stuff. I'm a minimalist.

You take it all out. So there you go. You take it all out. You put all your clothes on the bed and then you pick up each one and you think about, you observe it and you say, does this spark joy for me? You can do that with your thoughts. You can take that thought and you can say, I'm thinking in this moment, nobody likes me. Is this useful to me? If it's not useful to you, letting it go and using tools that you use in meditation, mindful meditation, then you kind of just say, this isn't useful to me. I don't have to buy into

this thought. I don't have to engage in this thought. I can let it go and move towards whatever it is I like doing. What about the illusion of usefulness like drugs? And what I mean by it is like, I am addicted to proving people wrong. Okay. So the idea that someone might not like me or have an opinion of me that I think they might be misinformed, I definitely get off on proving people wrong. I need to know more about this. So how does this relate to a drug? Well, I think it's like a drug. Well, it's a drug that I feel like you're addicted to.

I get off on it. Just like I literally get a high. What do you like about it? Being right, I guess. I don't know. It's just like, again, my whole life you ask me like, has this always been the case in the show?

I've always been unique and I don't necessarily. It's just like, again, my whole life, you asked me like, has this always been the case in the show? I've always been, I've always been unique and I don't necessarily mean that positively. I've always, I've always been myself. I've always been able to be myself. Like, I also hate it when people say unapologetically yourself, by the way. I understand that. Why? Yeah. Because I think sometimes we should apologize for being ourselves.

I think you can be authentically yourself. I think sometimes it's a scapegoat. Sometimes being ourselves, you can be rude. Like, sorry, not sorry. Yeah, sorry, I'm not sorry. You should own your problem. I'm apologizing to myself. I think it's important to be authentically yourself.

Be who you are. And sometimes being who you are, you might accidentally run something the wrong way. And I think it's important at that point to be like, my bad. I was kind of a dick. If you own your mistakes. Yeah, you own your mistakes. Then what's the problem with being a diverse person? Not everyone is going to like us all the time.

We're not always going to be on and in the most positive, amazing, wonderful mood all the time. And that's okay. I think it's because I've always, how do I say this without sounding cocky or whatever? You can sound cocky. But when I, growing up, and I talked about this, I have been complimented for my looks at times.

I'm tall. And at times, and I've said, my resting gaze can be unpleasant. I have sometimes resting bitch face. I can be aloof. I can be in my head. I always can be in my head. So when I'm in my head and in public and I have a resting gauge, I look cocky as fuck. I do. I look like I don't give a shit about anyone. I do. I know that's the perception

I can give. And I know throughout my, since I can remember, I've had people accuse me of being cocky and I'm very confident but like and so like I will have and so as long as I can remember I'll constantly people tell me this and I and or they'll say I'm a jerk although they'll all these things and I so like I know who I am and it's become this like a drug if I want to take the time to like show someone who I am to get them to be like, you know what? I thought this about you and now I think that. And it's ironically the fact that I happened to be the villain on my first season or I was a polarizing character. It quite honestly, ironically played into the character of my life of having people think one thing about me only to over time, if I wanted to let them in

and get them to know me, to show them a different side and have them say, I didn't like you, now I do. And it's something I've become addicted to. What's wrong with the process of somebody not liking you initially and then growing to like you? Nothing, but I'm saying I get off on it. But maybe you get off on it because it's a part of the process. I'm not sure exactly where it's coming from for you,

but maybe the part that feels good to you is saying, when I left that situation. It's like, see, I'm not a piece of shit. When I left that situation, I thought you thought I was an asshole, and now I can go back and prove you wrong to make me feel better. But maybe it's okay to just have a resting, I hate the term

resting bitch face because I think that's the way your face looks. It's kind of like with women, they constantly, dudes come up to you

and say, smile more. And you're just experiencing that. Oh, they fucking tell me that all the time. You're just experiencing that. Why aren't you having fun?

Why aren't you having fun? Like, smile. You should have more fun. And aren't you having fun? Why aren't you having fun? Like, smile. You should have more fun. And it's like, I'm just going about my life. It's okay for me to look like neutral. It's okay for me to look neutral. So I don't, I think the judgment you're placing on yourself is you're trying to, you're trying to pick up on what everybody else's perspective is and what you think it is.

And you're skewing negative in what you think their perception is. Right, sure. And it also plays into, you have been on television. It was a part of your character to be the villain, to be the cocky guy, right? And so when people buy into that,

they might not be buying into what you really are, genuinely are. They might be buying into an edit of what you were on television. And you don't have to prove them right. You don't have to prove them wrong. You can just be the person that you are without having to worry about

how you affect everybody else's perspective. I try my best. And I think that maybe if you were to ask more people, when you met me, and I just wasn't happy in that moment. I was just kind of like neutral in there. Did you think I was a raging asshole?

And I bet most of them would say, no. I thought you were just a guy drinking a coffee. Or thinking your thoughts. I never want to think that. Or reading the paper. Or walking down the street. You don't have to be happy all the time. To be liked.

Sometimes I feel like I do. And there's a problem in that. Well, because I've had comments. I haven't even read on my Instagram or whatever of like, I saw him at a grocery store. He looked like he wanted to kill himself, so he must be a jerk. And I'll be like, fuck. There's an interesting component of that that's about social media.

We always present our best selves. Nobody's presenting pictures of themselves frowning without any makeup on or in the shittiest of scenarios. So we're used to, at this point, an outward presentation of everyone is their best presentation. And that is not healthy. I do believe in self-improvement. and that is not healthy. I do believe in self-improvement and I do try to be self-critical, not necessarily to just pine and get myself anxious.

But if there's like a moment where I could be better, I'm just like, hey, could I, I do like feedback. I thrive off of feedback. But is it possible that people think that you're good in the place that you're in, even if it's not your version of what is better. Like, you'd like to get better. Great.

But the way you are right now, is it possible that for a lot of people in your life that that's, you're already better? That you're already good? Yeah. I mean, I think for the most part, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, also, I'm like, fine.

I'm fine. That's minimal. Okay. Yeah, you're minimizing also, I'm like, fine. I'm fine. That's minimal. Okay. Yeah, you're minimizing how you feel, though. I mean, you told me that every day you get stuck in these ruts of what you think people feel about you. And then it doesn't sound like it feels good for you. Well, also, like, I've just had a point in my life where, you know, I'm comfortable being single in the sense that— Well, here's where I really challenge, too too with my dating life is that I refuse to settle

that idea of like, I'm not, it never gets to the point where I'm still like, I feel confident about like, I feel like I look pretty good. I feel like I'm financially, I have a very fortunate life and I'm, you know, and so like, you know, you know, um, and so like, you know, when, when it happens, it happens, but they're also in between all like the micro level of like, Hey, I'm, I'm fine. And just knowing that I will, like, especially on a, and I, you know, I'm over the nightlife or the

like things I did when I was 22 or 23, like, it's just not that much fun anymore. Um, so like I often actively choose to like lay low and stay in on a saturday night well that can be filled with FOMO and anxiety and a lot of my friends are you know meeting people and getting married and having kids and even even my friends in la that i met in la when i moved here that were single or have met, gotten married, and now having kids. And it's just like there will be moments where I'm just like, fuck, it's just like at some point this has got to happen for me.

And at some point it will. And at some point it happened for all those other people. And I have that thought too. But I also know that I'm making life choices that are probably not setting myself up for success. How so? By doing what you like to do on a Saturday night, you're not setting yourself up for success?

I mean, I'm saying this facetiously, but like Instagram models. Oh, that's just fun, Nick. You're not doing anything wrong. I don't know. It's a debate. You date Instagram models. I'm slightly kidding. I'm kind of kidding. You have a sex life. It's a debate. You date Instagram models. I'm slightly kidding. I'm kind of kidding.

Yeah. You have a sex life. What's wrong with that? Well, I'm just saying if I were to get asked to go out with a girl who is, let's say, 23, 24. That's considerably younger than me. Is that somebody that you want to date? Or is that just somebody you want to have a casual relationship with? Well, the thought process in the moment of getting this opportunity,

and it might be me meeting them and like, I don't know how old you are, thinking. Again, I've asked a girl out and I'm like, I'm certain she's 29. And she's like, I'm 22. I'm like, fuck. My point is, but thinking at a macro level, not to put anyone in a box, because you can be mature if you're aging, you can be immature, but I generally think that level, not to put anyone in a box, because you can be mature if you're aging,

you can be immature, but I generally think that someone who's, say, 23, 24, there are potential red flags that we might have at just different stages in our life. I would like to have kids sooner than later. And so I meet someone, and the thought is it might be a wait. I'll have friends who say,

you're wasting your time. And my thought was, well, what else am I doing on a Wednesday? I could sit in and watch this Netflix show by myself or I could watch it with her. Well, here's the thing. What do you value?

Are you into staying inside, staying in on a Wednesday night and spending it with an Instagram model? Do you want to be doing it? We don't have to keep calling it an Instagram model. It sounds so shallow. You called them an Instagram model. I was joking around.

I didn't call them an Instagram model. But I think sometimes we get caught in this idea of we can't do both things. Like, you can pursue casual relationships that are for fun and to, you know, physical needs. And you can also be looking for your partner. Thank you. I feel like that's what I'm doing. That's what I was doing with my husband.

You don't have to be doing one or the other. You can be doing both. And I feel like I'm kind of like, and I don't look at it like, well, this is my potential wife date versus this is a potential hookup date. But I am kind of open. You know, sometimes I'll meet a woman who's like 29. She's beautiful.

And then there's just not a lot of chemistry. That's okay. And then I might even go out with a girl who's like, say, 24. I'm like, I'm having a lot of chemistry and I'd be like, oh man, you know? And then, and then I might even go out with a girl who's like, say 24. I'm like, I'm having a lot of fun with you and you like say interesting things, but like, fuck you're young. You know, like I just, and I have a lot of anxiety about like, you know, my biggest thing is too, it's just like, well, I want to be in a position that if I do meet someone, um, and I know what I want, I know what I don't want because I've dated a handful of people and you kind of like narrow down your focus.

I'm not saying I like have to be like, well, let's get pregnant in six months. But I would like to be in a position that we're mutually in a place where after a while of dating, we're both like I'm ready to have kids in my life as opposed to, well, I like you, but like, I'm not ready to have kids, which I think for younger people is a totally normal, acceptable thought process. And so like, I think about that a lot too. You can have two different kind, two different dating lives. You can have a dating life where you have fun and you want somebody to, to watch Netflix with on a Wednesday and you can have people who you're considering as your partner. And the list that you have of, I want this maturity level. I want them to be interested in children relatively soon. I want them to have, I don't know what else is on your list. But you can have both of those experiences. You don't have to have one or the other. If the casual relationships,

if dating a casual relationship is starting to get in the way of your time to be able to look for a more serious partner, then that might be a problem. But why can't you do both? I feel much better. Thank you for making me. Yeah. Can I? I can now have guilt free. Live your life.

I can live my life. Can I go back to something for one sec before we talk to Bachelor? Yeah. I thought it was so great that you like so openly talked about your anxiety and all that because I actually didn't realize how crippling or overwhelming it could be to have such, maybe not crippling, that's probably the wrong word, Nick. You're up and functioning and we're really, really proud of you. Thank you. But I mean.

But internally it can be. I want a trophy. So overwhelming because, you know, my dad always said to us, he said, if people don't like you, fuck them. That was sort of his like party line and is already his party line. And I do think what other people think of you generally is none of your business. But Nick's first guest, Ashley, is one of my best friends. And she sort of laughingly always says to me, you know, Sam, people don't really like

you. And it's fine. I don't give a shit. It hurts a little bit. It doesn't to me. It really doesn't. It's the perspective you're taking. It's the lens you don't give a shit. It hurts a little bit. It doesn't to me. It really doesn't. It's the perspective you're taking. It's perspective and personality.

It's the lens you guys are seeing it with. And to me, to know that to someone else that is overwhelming, it's such an interesting conversation and so important for people to hear. Absolutely. Because for someone else who's listening, it might be so overwhelming. Absolutely. For me, I truly don't give a shit. I don't care.

And I think it's dimensional. I think that there's a whole scale. There's some people who don't give a shit. There's some people who give a shit sometimes, who think about the worry thoughts sometimes. And there's some people who obsess about the worry thoughts all the time. And I think that therapy can help a broad dimension of people. If you're feeling like you're getting stuck in your thoughts and it's spending time and it's energy that you're doing, that you're having ruminating is exhausting or you could be doing something else with that time, you might want to go and talk to somebody about it. You might want to go and see a therapist about it because it's hard to get stuck in those thoughts. And sometimes you need an outside perspective to kind of take a look at what those thoughts are.

It seems like objectivity, right? Absolutely. We get so stuck in our own stuff because we've been rehearsing it for years. You've been rehearsing it since you were 10, you said. If I practice other things as much as I practice worrying, I would be… Yeah. You're an Olympian, probably. A zillionaire. And you have to practice worrying, I would be. Yeah. And so Olympian probably. And you have to practice not buying into those thoughts. You have to practice

thinking about it from another perspective instead of getting stuck in worry. So as much as you've practiced that over time and it's become automatic and it just happens just like that. become automatic and it just happens just like that. You also need to practice and exercise the muscle of being able to challenge it and not get stuck in it. And that oftentimes- I just try to check out. I'll fantasize about being lost in the wilderness in the middle of winter and that calms me down. Perfect. Really nice. Visualization. That works. And I think the idea that knowing that everyone has their shit everyone's walking around with something mental health whatever so mental health is not sick it's

nothing I mean it's it's someone has someone's leg hurts someone has totally and anxiety is so normal it's it's we all have it and it's actually from an evolutionary perspective, it helps us get out of danger. It clues our body that like there's a threat somewhere. The difficulty for us now is that we think so much about the past and we think so much about the future that we kind of get stuck in thinking about what do I regret? What did I do before that's making me worry now? Or what is it going to look like in the future? And what should I be worrying about then that I haven't started worrying about yet? What do I need to rehearse for? And so it's hard to actually focus in on the present moment and be present in whatever it is that you're doing. When you're worrying, you're not being present. You're not experiencing your life the way you

want to. And so it's hard to become unglued from those thoughts. We've had them so much that it is very difficult to take a step back and look at them from a very objective point of view. And that's why the help of a therapist can be amazing for people, because they're just, I've never thought of it that way before. I've never considered it that way. I've done this my entire life, and I've never really thought about where that is rooted in or where I can say, maybe that's not accurate. Maybe that's not rational or logical or realistic for me. And so I think sometimes we need that help.

And anxiety is normal. It's normal. Sometimes it just takes a lot of time out of your day. I'm normal. You're normal. It's normal. Sometimes it just takes a lot of time out of your day. I'm normal. You're normal. You're normal. This has been awesome. Yeah, it has.

Thank you. Well, before we get into some fan questions, since we have the expert here, a little Bachelor talk. I don't know. Oh, I love Bachelor talk. Tell us who's crazy. From a diagnostic.

I'm crazy. As a fan, I don't enjoy hometown episodes I love hometown episodes I love them because you get to look into their family life like the presentation

that they've been showing to the camera I find it to be so disingenuous oh my god how so? tell us from the inside what is it really like?

I think it's just as the lead it's the hardest week I think because there's a lot of anxiety about you feel like you're full of shit. Yeah. About what? Why are you full of shit?

Because it's one thing to have a bunch of people who, again, who the whole moniker is like, you know what you signed up for, right? Yeah. So all these women have signed up to be on TV in the pursuit of love, whether they knew Colton was going to be the bachelor or not. Their families didn't necessarily sign up for it. Every family's involvement varies in terms of

hey mom, by the way, I'm going on a show, bye. Literally those are some conversations. Other conversations I'm sure families are very involved throughout the casting process. They know the whole time they make this decision as a family to yeah, you should go or whatever. And like I said,

no lead's gone into hometowns in a four-way tie. Right. You may not have made your decision, but you may have strong feelings for all four, but it's not a four-way tie. Right. Has it changed the way people think of each other, though? Because as a viewer, I see it and I think,

well, this actually grounds them like I get to see what their mom looks like and what their their house looks like casting with the cast yeah so the actual contestants I feel like I get to know more as a cast member it's it's a great week because you're in control a little bit you get the you're it's you get to you've you I mean it's emotional you fly I'll never forget flying into into Milwaukee for my hometown date on Andy's. It was a struggle too because I was feeling the pressure of the guys being mad at me. And it was just good to be home and see my friends and show Andy. It felt personal.

And so from a cast member, it's great. It's fun to do that. And I just think every family is different. I come from a large family. I thought some of my siblings were great, and I think some of them are just annoying and shitty and asking Andy annoying and shitty questions because they got caught up in the TV aspect.

It's fun. Raven's family was great. Her dad was a cancer survivor, so that was really amazing news that she got to hear and it was really emotional uh and i'll never forget like raven's mom the sweetheart that she is like she's a fan you could tell she was a fan of the show so like raven's dad was very stoic and you know it's just like the whole um you know father you know you know, father, you know, you know, suitor talk. And I was like, you know, I wanted to ask like Raven's mom's blessing too. And like, would she, you know, like, I know this is crazy.

And I'm talking to Raven's mom trying to be like, and she was like, you guys, you kids are perfect. Like, and I was like, you can tell that she was just like excited about the show and excited about being there. It was sweet. It was sweet. It was innocent. But like she had no objectivity. Like you can tell her mom like it's sort of me just like not coming in being shitty.

She was going to be like. She was in love with you already. This is great. Like, oh, my God. You know, like it was really endearing of her mom to do it. But like that's the part of the show that you just don't know. There's a whole camera crew that infiltrates these people's houses for a 24 hour period.

And it's and so when I watch. It's not always their real house, right? Is it not? It's almost always there. It's if they can, it is. There's there's a variables at play in terms of there's this there's variables at play, but they always try to make it. But objectively, what parent, seriously,

this is what I loved about last night's episode. What parent is going to say, sure, take my daughter's hand. You've known her for four weeks. She's yours. It's an interesting thing. I was on my friend's podcast who, you know, they're feminists and with HuffPost. And they kind of lectured me and kind of enlightened me about like

because Colton this episode there's a lot of back and forth between saying the phrase I would love your blessing and I would like

your permission I it rubbed me the wrong way I'm also a feminist it rubbed me the wrong way it felt like a dowry

like you're like yes and particularly well the historical essence and this was explained to me last week is like, you know, back in the day, marriage was a dowry of women were property.

Use the negotiation. Yes, it felt like a negotiation. It felt like he was asking, can I have her? And he looked mad when he didn't get permission. He looked pissed. Yes, but also it was interesting to me

from that perspective with Kaylin. There could be behind the scenes there though. Kaylin's mom is the one that's raised her her entire life. And she was talking, Kaylin. Cassie? Kaylin? Oh, Kaylin. Kaylin, yeah, right?

Yeah. Her stepdad was like her dad. Her stepdad's been around for a long time. Since she was four. So yeah, he raised her. But why aren't we asking for a mom also? The bachelor is very traditional and they play into the traditions.

And that's an interesting debate. I do think the bachelor probably could do a better job of becoming more less traditional in that sense. And I do think there is a difference between asking for permission and blessing. I get my friends and my women friends who object to this notion of asking

their father's permission. You don't need his permission. I do want to be respectful and to say, hey, listen, as a family, father, mother, I would love you guys to be like, and again like knowing and i think that's a better way to position it too because you're walking in this house it's like

hey i'm dating three other people and your daughter you're gonna see me for like eight hours like it's insane to like get your permission but to say hey listen i understand the situation i've brought your daughter into and there's only so much you can learn from me in this moment. But in this small moment, I would love for you to be as comfortable as you possibly can with the idea that I'm falling in love with your daughter and I would like to potentially make a lifelong commitment to her. But why isn't that asked of the mother and the father? I asked every mother and father when I was the best.

Did it air that you asked the mothers too? I don't remember. I think they aired me asking Vanessa's mom. And I know it was really important. It was personally important to me just because I kind of knew when my heart was leaning in that moment. And her parents were divorced.

And I knew she was just as close with her mom as she was her dad. And it was very important to me just because Vanessa kind of described it as it's an important blessing to get. So it mattered. And did you know you were going to ask her already? I was definitely leaning that direction. Did you know that was the one that mattered?

It mattered. In the moment, it mattered. You know, like you can kind of tell. I don't know what Colin's going to do uh but it certainly seemed like he cared about uh cassie's yeah that's the way he's saying pissed at the end of that like when cassie's dad which i really respected was like her dad handled it awesome her dad was great beautiful family in the history i know the sisters oh wow i mean that family is just and then when she marries colton who looks exactly like her father they they're going to keep having children that look exactly like this family.

They're going to keep that life. I think her sister's dating Greg Sulkin, the actor. Oh, I love Greg. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember what Greg's on, but he's lovely. He's the loveliest human ever. He's attractive.

Wait, question for you. So when you meet your person, Neil Lane lane when you and neil get married um how do you do it this time do you ask the family do you ask anyone do you pull the father what do i would i do yeah next time when it's not i i have he's attractive he's very attractive yeah he's lovely or when you and greg make it no i'm not i'm not what's the plan i'm not checking them out like i mean it's like you know how women check other women i'm just i'm a competitive person Or when you and Greg make it. No, I'm not checking them out. It's like, you know how women check other women? Of course, we all look at each other. I'm a competitive person.

I could see that in you. I saw you judging yourself against him in that moment. Again, let's talk about whether that's a useful thought. He's attractive and you're attractive. Both can be true. I remember the first thing I ever won. It was a coloring contest in the first grade. And I remember thinking, this winning thing and being the best is awesome.

But can't we all be the best? I'm just saying it's something I've, it's been a blessing and a curse. This is such a weird personality. So I, we're born with these personalities, right? Or partially made. Like I'm not a competitive person. So I'm like seeing. I'll never forget that moment.

I'm sitting down as a mrs. and she walked in and i remember that i won the coloring contest because it was stained glass windows and i was the only kid who each individual little section like in church like multiple colors other kids just kind of drew it in and i just remember getting complimented and praised for my coloring abilities and i was like i am going to do whatever I can. You are a really good artist. Everything I can ever win for the rest of my life. Maybe you also just like praise.

Yeah, you do. Fucking love it. Maybe you don't need to compete. You can just have praise. Like you're attractive. He's attractive. People around you who just tell you how lovely you are all the time.

Both. Anyway. And not either or. And. What do I, what, so to answer your question, I don't,

I don't know. Honestly, I don't even think about that. I really just, I know I want to meet someone and have a life partner. And I know I want to have a family. And I guess it's weird because I'm very traditional and marriage has always been a big deal to me. But I honestly care less about marriage than I do about, and I'm not saying I don't want to get married. I just, I don't even think about like what, if, if I were to meet someone full in love and say, this is who I want to spend the rest of my life with, I would handle it that way where it's just

like, I, I, I, uh, I would, I would probably still traditionally go to her family and, and kind of let them know this is what I want to do. And it would be both parents. And if their parents are divorced, like the first time I got engaged before the show, her parents are divorced. And I called both of her parents separately and just asked, I don't know if I said permission or blessing. I probably said blessing. But I think I would do the same thing and just say, hey, I hope, ultimately it's her call, but I would love for you guys to be on board.

And I hope that I can be a part of your family. Hometowns are tough, whatever. Yeah, I just find, I just. I love hometowns. It seems so scripted every time he looked at them and said, you know, I think I'm falling in love with you too. It did. Like, oh my God.

Well, it was a weird, because I know I i always when i was the bachelor i would joke it was like the falling in love line is a tool it's because it's it's the most meaningless subjective thing you can say to anyone and and it's a game well it's like well there's like you don't say it in real life i think i'm falling in love i'm falling in love I love you I'm in love they're like yeah what is that all like none of it really means anything then I love you right either you do or you don't like other than that it's just like I can walk down this I could go on the street and go to the line of Chipotle and to literally tell everyone I'm in the process of falling in love with you and technically it's kind of true you know know, like, it's a great shoes.

I'm, I could be falling in love with you. It's a game. And, and people know when to use that chip. I feel like there's a lot of chips in,

in this game. I felt like that this episode. There was a lot of, yeah, they disclosed something at the one-on-one. I thought that was interesting how he did that.

I didn't like, I didn't like that. He didn't say it to Kaylin though, did he? He did. No, he wanted to. She, he, it was, he said it early. He didn't like that. He didn't say it to Kaylin, though, did he? He did. No, he wanted to. He said it early. He said it to Cass?

That was the one relationship where you see Colton, like, they're setting something up. I don't know. But, like, this whole, like. The fence jump. Sure. But, like, you know, he is. Is she going to be the fence jump?

When it comes to. I fucking hate the fence jump. They're just teasing. It's the only reason I'm watching the show is to see what the fence jump is about. Right now, you basically have... There's four relationships right now, right? You have three relationships of three women pursuing Colton,

and you have one relationship of Colton pursuing a woman, a Cassie. And at least that's how it comes... That's what I'm... But maybe Cassie's into it, and she's not falling into the same exact game that she has to play in this. Maybe she is falling for him.

Totally. There's definitely things of like. Or maybe she says, this is way too early for any of us to be falling for any of us. Totally.

I don't think she's doing anything wrong. She's doing what Peter did on Rachel's season where she's like, I really like you but I cannot get engaged at the end of this.

Yeah. I have to be authentic and genuine and say, this is bullshit. There's nothing wrong with that. Also, and that can fuck, as a lead, can fuck you up because there's an expectation of. Right.

I mean, listen, the more I liked Vanessa, the more worried I was that she didn't like me. Because it was, well, I know the pressure of getting engaged on this show, and what if she leaves? What if I, then like I don't, you know, I don't like, yeah, Rachel's great and Raven's great and there's things I like about them, but

I feel differently about Vanessa. But isn't that true in most relationships? Like the more you get invested, the more you worry that they're not? Sure, or you raise the stakes. So there's greater reward, there's greater risk. For whatever reason,

this particular hometown seemed so scripted and fakey to me. Cassie's? No, the whole thing. It did. It seemed a bit rehearsed. A leave of their own, gracefully and grandly. What is it? I thought it was a particularly boring hometown episode

relative to other seasons. It was so scripted. And then the the I'm falling in love with you. Dean's, I fell in love with Dean during his hometown because there was a piece where I was like, you're not just a shiny Instagram model. You have real things that you've dealt with in your life. Dean's a great guy. He's a very interesting character.

He's smart. Dean's a friend. I'm biased, but he's a, there are layers to Dean. I wonder if people deepen their feelings or don't based on the hometown.

Like, having been in it. You actually get to know them a lot. Well, with me, it was always like I was the villain, right? Or the polarizing character in Caitlyn's season

and my family is glorious. So every, like even on both seasons, like, oh, well, he loves his mom, so maybe he's a decent guy you know like it was your redeeming quality

I mean there was a lot of that when people come up to me like I didn't like you until I saw you with your mom you know she seems like I was fascinated by Hannah's family

I loved her mom's reaction at the table when she sort of like went white my favorite line of the episode you reminded me of she came as a mama's girl

she left as a woman in love. She was ill. Excuse me while I throw up in my mouth. Livid. I mean, watching him at the table, giving that toast, which was totally innocuous, but something about that toast. It itched her. Why would he say it?

I don't know. He was basically like, you know, I'm so glad to be here. It's been nice getting to know you guys. Something, just nothing. You could see it on the screen. I would have, by the way, being the kind of snarky dick that I am, if I were on the hometown date of being the manner lessons and the southern girl and the southern, like,

kind of condescending bless you child voice. Bless your heart. Bless your heart. Well, show me how you would eat that roll I would have groundhog days Bill Murray style just be like

well is it like this and shove the whole thing in my mouth and she'd be like oh child that's not how you do it I'd be like really

I don't that was a lot I would have done it like right in her face and be like who gives a shit I do think there was a genuine moment

in Colton being scared shitless about getting out of that plane. Oh, it loved every moment of that. It was the only time we've seen their sense of humor this whole season. Yeah. It felt like he was being real. When you're falling out of a plane, it's hard to like, your real fears are going to come out.

Yeah, it's hard to modulate all of your emotions when you're scared out of your mind. But that was a moment where I actually liked him a bit. Because I feel like he is kind of like the producer's bachelor. Like he feels like he's producing the show. Oh, yeah. And how he's talking to people and how he's interacting with women.

He can be the... Pulling them aside. I see moments of both. And gets mad when the rules don't go his way. Yeah. I think there's something about Tayshia, Tayshia, where she's got the, I almost feel like she's the third pageant queen.

She's got this smile and this facade, and I'm not sure what's going on underneath, but there is something very fakey about her to me. I think this is a situation where she knows she's not it. Colton knows she's not it. And they're both kind of... Why would he say I love you then? Because he's saying it to everyone. They're kind of like winking to each other.

And I said it. I assumed that Rachel and Raven knew that I was going to pick Vanessa. So it's kind of like I'm going to say these nice things. You're going to say nice things back. We'll both look nice. And at some point I'm going to sing at home. And just be cool. Doesn't that feel uncomfortable?

And when it comes to hometown, it fucking sucks. It really sucks because I got in fights with producers about getting, you know, there's some pushback. And listen, in the defense of producers, they're trying to film a show and making and staying on track. And again,

it's weird because like i will say like raven's mom was i thought it was funny and charming but i was like okay well she just is really excited that you know this is you know and her dad was you know very you know you just never know there's so many variables and i like you know i knew i was gonna send corinne home before the hometown date and like i was just I just felt uncomfortable about it. And you kind of bite the bullet and you say things that you probably don't mean. And that's why the whole falling in love

is a safe way to say it because no one can really accuse you of lying. It's like, I am falling in love with her. And then tomorrow I'm going to realize that I'm not in love with her as part of the falling process. But as the lead, don't you get more flack for that? I mean, we expect all of the contestants, we expect all the women to say that to him.

But we expect him to reserve it for when he means it. Well, the falling in love is different. Well, Ben got a lot of grief because he said, I'm in love with you to JoJo and Lauren. I see. So the difference was that he went all over it. The falling, I'm in love with you to JoJo and Lauren. I see. So the difference was that he went all out with it. The falling in love is like the get out of jail. And I told, they aired it, I told Rachel I was falling in love with her.

Did you mean that at all? Sure. That's so ridiculous. Sure, because like I'm falling in love with all of you. You're in the process. Like we are also falling in love with you. There were things about Rachel

that I loved sincerely I thought she was great and I was I was falling and I was going to catch myself before I landed

but I you were on a one where is real falling in love is an 11 I do think the falling in love line in Bachelor World

in life is a in life no one uses it in life it's not a real thing in life and in Bachelor World in life is a... In life? No one uses it in life. It's not a real thing. In Bachelor, it's a red flag. I also think, not to sound condescending,

Colton is younger and I think I said that naively when I was younger is the things I think I'm supposed to say. And I think this is a season filled with a bunch of people who are young. So young. I'm wondering if it's that I'm just getting older and they're staying the same age,

kind of like Matthew McConaughey says, or if they're getting younger. Well, the lead matters, right? Because it's also like, it's the pool of, you know, like when I was The Bachelor, I was 35 and I had 23 year olds, but I had like bachelor, I was 35, and I had 23-year-olds, but I had two. And then I had more 26 and 27 and 28.

And Colton has half his women were 23. I mean, he's only 26. So yeah, they had a handful of women. And a woman who was 27 was called the cougar. I know, it's absurd. But most men don't date women who are three years their senior. I mean, it can happen, but it doesn't happen often.

I don't know about all that. Does it happen as often? I don't know about all that. I tend to date younger guys. Yes. I'm 39. I said it doesn't happen often. There's exceptions to every rule.

The horror. I mean, the horror exceptions to every rule. I mean, the horror, how dare it? And if you can, you should. But I'm just saying society, you know, it doesn't happen as, that's all I'm saying. It just doesn't seem to happen as much. My favorite thing this season, my favorite thing,

is watching Colton get genuinely excited about anything. Because he's so scripted and he's so following the rules and he's so wanting to be a good bachelor. He's trying so hard. He's trying so hard. He's not so different than anyone else. It is a little. It feels different.

He does it worse because he's not as good at it. He's not as good at it. This is my opinion. It's not yours, obviously. I know, Nick. As long as you're implying that I was, then it's fine. You can say whatever the fuck you want. Nick, you are so good at it. I think not yours, obviously. I know, Nick. As long as you're implying that I was, then it's fine. You can say whatever the fuck you want.

Nick, you are so good at it. I have to go back and watch your season. I honestly don't know. I only know you as Nick. Not Nick the Bachelor. But when he gets genuinely excited about something, he kind of breaks out of it. He's kind of like a little kid. He's like a little kid.

I think every season you see moments of the lead being real and being scripted. And I am falling in love with Colton, I think. You're somewhere along the spectrum. There were moments like I had to do that too. I try to circumvent that by just breaking up with a bunch of women on the date. It's a surprise.

We're breaking up. So you circumvented it by being an asshole. Why is that an ass? I, I, that sounds like a conscious thing I have about, because I thought that was a genuine thing I could do because it was actually really hard and it would be really easy to just be like,

yeah, here's a rose. I'll send you home next week. Right. I just won't give you a rose night. We won't save this conversation, but no, we're going to break up and you can now talk about it. You can ask me, you can get your crying moment. We can save this conversation. But no, we're going to break up and you can now talk

about it. You can ask me. You can get your crying moment. We can make this all about you. You're welcome, by the way, because getting dumped is the best thing that can happen to you on The Bachelor. It is. But I do think it is interesting where they get the moment to talk to you because it kind of seems like

ghosting in a way that you just don't give them a rose or you do give them a rose. when you don't give them a rose they just have to leave and go outside and give you an awkward hug and go outside and then cry in what seems like you know four in the morning and then get into a car and talk to a producer crying about it and so there's almost it's almost kinder in a way that you give them the opportunity. Could you imagine in life of breaking up with someone by simply saying, no, I'm not going to give you this. And then having them walk 40 feet away and then you cheers with other people while they crawl in the street corner?

Yes, it's so wrong. It's so mean. Let's get to it. What is your name? I'm Meredith. Meredith. I'm Nick. Hi, I'm Elisa. Hello. Meredith. I'm Nick. Hi.

I'm Alisa. Hello. Meredith, how are you? Good. How are you? Great. What's your question? How can we help? It's a little story leading up to a question, I guess. A little odd story. My parents have been married and divorced from each other a total of three times in the last like with each other.

Yeah. To each other. They haven't been like married three times and they also like, so they've gotten, so they were married, they were married and then had me and my sister. And then when I was about two years old, they got a divorce.

And then when I was in eighth grade, they got remarried again, which was like super weird going to your own parents wedding sure and then they got a divorce like a year later and then like two years ago they got remarried this time I was like 21 and I got a divorce like eight months later so all wild other no other marriages in So yeah, a little strange to grow up and have to explain that. It's not that weird. It's more interesting than weird.

It is more interesting than weird. Yeah, I don't experience it as weird. It's just an interesting thing. I have a lot of questions, but I don't like, I don't find it to be like, it's this unique. It's also sounds expensive, but. So true. Yeah.

And it's always weird when people like ask, oh, are your parents, like, are you like, are your parents divorced? I'm like, yeah, like technically for the third time, but I don't know if you want to know that. So they've divorced again. You sound self-conscious about it. What was that? You sound self-conscious about it. What was that? You sound self-conscious about it.

Yeah, I am. Just because like, I don't know. I don't know. It's just like, I grew up in a very small, like conservative town where like everybody's parents are like still married. And then it's like weird having to be like, oh yeah, my parents are like back together again, guys. Like, yeah, my parents.

Where do you live? Like my dad just moved back in. Where do you live? I'm from Iowa originally, but I live in Minnesota now. So I guess like my question would be like, so obviously like my parents suck at advice. Like I, they can't hold relationships of their own. And it's like, whenever I ask them for like advice or, or like, even just like when I call my mom to like vent her, cause I'm in a long distance relationship right now. And it's like, whenever I ask them for, like, advice or, like, even just, like, when I call my mom to, like, vent her because I'm in a long-distance relationship right now. And so, like, sometimes, you know, like, when you're in a long-distance relationship, like, it's hard. Like, you just argue a little bit because, like, you're tired of, like, you know, not being able to see each other. And you need to, like, make priority of, like, your relationship when you're together.

And, like, so, like, I was on the phone with my mom last weekend. And I was just like, yeah, you know, like, we just kind of, like, had a rough weekend. And she was like, well, like, are you going to make it through? Like, is it going to be okay? Like, do you think you guys can overcome this? I'm like, yeah, mom, like I'm just like calling you as a mom to like be able to vent and like, you know, get a mom's perspective to be like, oh, it's okay. So like, who do I go to? Like, I mean, as much as I'd love to have like you guys on speed dial, I don't think you'd like that. Do you have friends that you can go to about it to get a little perspective? I can, but it's like, how much do you go to your friends for that? Like, you know,

like every girl like wants to be able to like have parents that they can go to for advice like that. But like when your parents suck at their own relationships, like what do you do? She's a clinical psychologist, by the way. She probably wants to listen to her point of view more than mine. You want to just delve into my psyche. But that being said, you may or may not find this interesting. As far as my parents' relationship in my childhood, I've been lucky in the sense that I have 10 siblings.

They're the picture-perfect relationship. I've never really even seen my parents fight. I know they've had disagreements and whatever. And as I've gotten older, I can see them bicker sometimes. But for the most part, picture-perfect. And my parents are, I admire them. They're my heroes and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Also, my life has also been very different.

When my dad was my age, he had seven kids or some shit. And interestingly enough, even though I do go to my parents for advice time to time, they've really often not been the ones that I would go to. And that's just a personality thing. I've found different people in my life. And it's been like when I was in my early 20s, sometimes it would be like a co-worker who was like a woman, my friend Donna. She was like eight years my senior and married. And I just like enjoyed talking to her.

She gave really good advice. And I just, I trusted her. And she was like for a period of time a confidant. And she was a co-worker. I, throughout my life, have had various people have come in and out of my life that I've gone to for advice because I've gotten to know them. I really liked their interest.

They have perspective. I felt that he could relate to me in various ways. My parents can't relate to me in a lot of ways, despite their uniqueness of their relationship, their foundations. They were introduced by a Catholic priest. Religion has been a huge part of their life. That's something that I admire and I would want in my relationship. But as I've gotten older, I'm still religious, but it's changed. I'm not as maybe as religious.

And some of the people I date certainly aren't Catholic, which isn't even a big deal to me as much. My point is, is that even though my parents are the picturesque person and by theory could be the sounding boards of a great advice, they haven't been the people I've always counted on. And so I have picked and choose different people and how I pick them is just people I think that can relate and who can come across, I trust their advice, they seem to have, they can explain it, they can relate, or can come across. I trust their advice. They seem to have, they, they,

they can explain it. They can relate. They can, they, or they'll just listen. And so I guess the point is there's no right or wrong in terms of who you get advice from. And there's the people who we think maybe we should get advice from our

parents, close friends, mentors, but the advice can come from the friend who, you know, went through a shitty experience. And sometimes people who like fuck up in relationships can give great advice because they can be tell you like, well, listen, I did this and it didn't work out. I wouldn't advise it. You know, like, yeah, I think you can collect people who you feel comfortable talking about it with. It sounds like to me, you don't feel comfortable talking to your mom and that's okay. She's a human being and your dad's a human being

and they do good in relationships. They do bad in relationships. They seem to do it with each other. They do bad and good in relationships, but she, she just might not be the person that you feel supported by when you talk about relationships and that's okay. You you feel supported by when you talk about relationships. And that's okay. You might feel supported by her in many, many, many, many other ways, but just not when you're talking about your boyfriend or your girlfriend or whomever it is. So you can collect the people that you feel supported by and who get you and who your, their advice, uh, add something to your experience. It doesn't have to be your mom. Yeah. Also, I wouldn't be so hard. I mean, I, you know, I said this, you weren't here, but we spent a whole hour talking about not being hard

on myself, but don't be so hard on yourself. I really, your, your parents situation, if you want to call it out, isn't, isn't weird. It's more interesting than weird. Honestly, I would, if I went on a date with you, I'd be super fascinated to learn more. I wouldn't think of it as a red flag. And listen, you can be funny and sell it as ways like, listen, my parents are a lot of things, but quitters, they are not.

Or they quit and then they decide to get sick. I don't know about that. Or they quit, but they get back together. Whatever. I'm just saying it's not that big of a deal. I don't think you should be that embarrassed about small town or not. Like, whatever. Yes. And certainly if you moved to, like, the city of Minneapolis, everyone would have their

interesting story. Come out to LA. Fuck it. Like, there's a bunch of people with really unique stories. I lived in New York City for a couple months. And, like, out there, it's like everyone has a story. Yeah. So, like.

And everyone has a story in Rochester, too. Also too also yeah i will say this about small towns people have their stories they just don't talk about it they're just not out there um so like yet i wouldn't be that self-conscious about it if you can help yourself it's it's not that it's it's not that big of a deal and then just find um lean on your parents when you want to for things that you want to get from them um or just like hey mom what did you want to for things that you want to get from them. Or just like, hey mom, what did you do in this situation? I just want to do it the opposite. Have some fun with it.

Advice can really come from anyone as long as you can trust them. I like to get advice from people where I feel safe and not judged, um, find people like that. And that can be any, any, any, anyone, you just have to be willing to open yourself and self up to them. And I think, you know, allowing yourself not to feel judged. If you don't judge yourself about it, then you'll be more free to like share your story. Because if you, if you feel judged that you like, um, you know, and I, I, I'm the more, the more worried I'm about being judged,

the more reluctant I am to share my truth. Absolutely. Very good insight. Well, thank you. Cool. All right. Well, best of luck. Thank you. All right. Take care. Thanks. All right. Bye guys. Bye. What is your name? I'm Casey. Hi Casey. Hi Casey. Bye, guys. Bye. What is your name? I'm Casey.

Hi, Casey. Hi, Casey. I'm Nick. This is Wilson. Hi. She's a clinical psychologist. I don't know if your needs... Require one, but I'm here anyway. What can we help you with? Okay. So here's my situation. My ex and I dated for two years.

And then he bought a house and asked me to move in. So I moved in with him. We split everything, like the mortgage payment, the groceries, like some major home repairs, like the roof, the heating system, stuff like that. After one year of living together, I broke up with him and moved out. That was in October. So a week after the breakup, we met up and kind of talked about sorting out money, the money situation, because I had put like a lot of money into the house. And obviously that was equity that he got to keep. So we decided on a number.

We both agreed on a number that he would um pay me back and I said that it didn't have to be like right away and it didn't have to be all at once because it was like thousands of dollars um but he said he would pay me an installment starting like the end of 2018 so in december i heard from him again and it got brought up um he hadn't paid me anything yet um and i asked him about it and he said he would start paying me soon okay i haven't heard from him since de. I want to approach him about it, but I want to be sensitive because it wasn't an ugly breakup and he's not a bad guy, but I also don't want to be a pushover. I don't know how to handle it. When you, say, helped pay for the fixing of the roof or other improvements, was it a disgust at that point, the possibility of you guys breaking up and what would happen if that did happen? Or were you just like, you guys were just living in the moment and you were sharing the costs because you're playing house, so to speak? Yeah, it was never discussed like what

would, what would happen. So yeah, I guess we were just kind of living in the moment. But you guys have come to an agreement already. It's just that he's not paying you, right? Like you got together and decided an uninstallment plan and what exactly the number would be. So you guys have that already set, right? Yeah. So we decided on the number and he gave me like a general idea of when he would start paying me and that started in like the by the end of 2018 and ended in like june of this year yeah okay what's preventing you from being direct and saying i thought you know like i understand if there's any difficulties for you to financially be able to pay for this now. But I was wondering when we were going to start

your payments to me. I guess I just don't want to be like the bad guy because I'm the one that broke up with him. So I don't want to be seen as like, I'm like money hungry or something. You guys have a plan. Yeah. I'm curious just to play that. Okay. When,

when this plant is he, how is he, did he want to get, he didn't want to break up. Correct? No, he wasn't really on board with it. Okay. And then when you guys were putting this plan together, what was his frame of mind?

What was my frame of mind? No, what was his frame of mind? Was he still hoping to get back together? He's never said anything about getting back together, but he was just, he was like a little defensive and kind of upset because he didn't want to pay back like everything that I had put in, which I was fine with. When you say everything, were you including like rent? No, no. Just the major home repairs. Gotcha.

Okay. It's a tough situation, to be honest. I mean, I think, you know, if you, yes. And the short answer is if you had a plan and you guys had an agreement, he should be living up to these set plans that you guys did. And if he's giving you an idea of when he would pay you, he should. And like the obvious solution is ask him in a nice way to be kind of like, what's up? I think, although, fine, yes.

But I think in these situations, it can get very sticky. It doesn't sound like you guys involved a lawyer. This is kind of like a business transaction. And you're muddying the waters between friendship and business. I've had issues with that, especially from a business or bringing friends in. It's like the verse of actually starting a business and then working with friends and you can kind of get weird. There's so many emotions involved in this. I think it can get real sticky. He may have been agreeing to this number based off of this wanting to be cool and then since then

you don't even know what conversations he's had with his friends or his family uh you know a lawyer i don't even know i've been like i don't know dude i don't really think you owe her anything or whatever and just you don't know and i wouldn't be shocked if some of those conversations took place um certainly the reason why I asked about, are you breaking up with him? I'm like, you certainly are entitled to that. I think it was probably technically a mistake on your part, hindsight being 2020, to without any agreement,

he's on the lease, to give him money, just being strictly from a business standpoint legal i'm not a lawyer but like it was kind of mistaking your part to without any upfront expectations to just give him money with you of kind of you guys were playing house and then you broke up and hoping him to be good on that because technically legally i don't know what he actually owes you in goodwill he i think he's doing the right thing and i just i don't know what he actually owes you. In goodwill, I think he's doing the right thing. And I just, I don't know this guy. And I don't know if he's going to continue to want to do the right thing,

especially now if he just has moved on from the relationship and doesn't really care what you think about him. That's a possibility. Like in the moment when he agreed to it, he could have been like wanting to be the good guy, hoping you'd reconsider and just saying like, fine, sure, I'll pay you, whatever. Like, I don't want to argue with you.

He could, but he might also just think maybe you forgot about it. Well, do you really think he forgot? Well, fine, but like, he probably hasn't forgotten. Oh. There's a reason why he hasn't. There's a reason why he hasn't come to you

saying, well, here's your first check and you'll be expecting more. Is the problem that you're just uncomfortable asking? Yeah, it sounds like you're worried that he's going to judge you or other people are going to judge you as money hungry versus living up to the plan that you guys already agreed on. Because then I'd just write a letter. Yeah, or a text and say, hey, I'm just checking in on this.

You think if you could handle it, I think a call is always better. Well, in writing, I think would be the way to handle it, in my opinion. You're thinking legally. Not legally. You think if you could handle it, I think a call is always better. Well, in writing, I think would be the way to handle it. In my opinion, you're thinking legally. You were just thinking legally. You were too, but I mean, no, I know, but I'm saying like people can misinterpret texts. It can come across. He can get defensive if he's feeling defensive about not having

paid her. You know, how many fucking winky face emojis do you need to include to make sure he is not coming from a point of aggression? She's saying that she's worried she's going to come across as money hungry and i'm saying if you just put it in a text or an email or something and say like hey we had an agreement i'm just curious if what what the circumstances or you know what how we can sort of navigate this together in a clear non-emotional carefully check in on it in a way that I don't think you have to presuppose that he's going to think a certain way about you. This is something

you guys have already covered. And it sounds like you did it in a really careful, fragile way after breaking up and you guys agreed upon something. I think it's okay to go in and kind of check on that and not worry necessarily about how you'll be seen, but instead checking on something that's meaningful to you. This cash is cash you spent and it's important. Yeah, I agree with that. I do think, I mean, generally I think you might not have the luxury of getting to worry about what he or his friends or maybe new girlfriend is going to think about you trying to be paid back. You keep adding in people to the scenario. I guarantee you there's other people involved.

But I don't think you have to worry about them. I don't think she's just worried about him. Well, let's ask. Who are you worried about feeling that you're money hungry? Is it just him? So it's actually funny that you bring up other people because I don't know this. You're a wizard.

Because, you know, I'm out there in the world and I know. I know things. I didn't get that part. My friend actually goes to the same hair salon as his grandma. Oh, goodness. See what I'm saying? Talking about the mess of the pickup thing. Fucking know people.

Everyone knew this was coming. I hope they don't get back together. Her stuff is still there. When is she going to get out? Listen, grannies talk at hair salons and they'll talk about anything. They'll talk about literally anything. That's kind of my point. If you really want to get paid back, you might have to be willing to at least some people out there be the bad guy. Doesn't mean you are the bad guy. People are going to take sides in breakups all the time. Expect his friends and family to take his side. Expect yours to take yours.

And you're all getting your own versions of the story. But you are going to have to call him and ask him. Because chances are it doesn't sound like he's going to call you up and be like, surprise, here's your money. And I wouldn't be shocked if there's people in his hair suggesting he doesn't owe you. Even if they all think that you're the bad guy, you did this really carefully. From the way you described it, you did a good job of putting the work in here. She's a cartographer. Yes.

And the right thing to do. You mapped things out. You mapped this out very well um and and i think that it's it's okay for you to check in even if you're the bad guy you're not actually even if you're worried that you're the bad guy or that granny feels you are that way it um that's okay you did this in the right way i think it's totally fair for you to expect to get paid back what you invested in the house as an improvement the rent is that you are paying rent so like that's that's not and it seems like you have a

totally reasonable expectation of what you you get legally I think it's you probably I don't I'm not a lawyer I don't know but I think you have to hope that he is a stand-up guy and wants to do the right thing and just kind of and I also would think that and i think when every breakup i don't know what you think but we have a way of holding on to things too like like the classic case is the you know you break up and then you always have each other's stuff and the person who doesn't want the relationship to end has no problem not collecting their things and so debt is another thing he has connecting the relationship. And so that's another thing. Because once he pays you back

and he has no stuff, the relationship truly is over. And now he has this debt that he's not only holding on to because he doesn't want to pay you back, it's the one thing he has. And so you're really going to have to, you're going to have to, you're going to

have to maybe feel at least like the bad guy, but I think you should be okay with standing up for what is yours and, and being in it, doing it in a nice way. And it'll all be fine. Agreed. Map that shit out. So do you think enough time has passed that I can now, like now would be a good time? And do I call or do I text? I think being reasonable, the only amount of time that has to pass is one day past the day you set expectations of them paying you. So yes. And again, you can be reasonable saying, hey, you know, just want to understand if maybe money is tight right now. I'm fine.

I'm not saying I needed everything right now, but I do would like to like have some expectations and be able to, um, you know, hold you accountable for it. Yeah. You can be careful and just saying, I'm checking in.

We had a plan. I'm checking in. How's it going? Okay. Okay. Yeah. That was very helpful. Well,

good luck. Um, stand your ground. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Good luck. Stand your ground. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Our pleasure. Thank you so much for being with us today. I hope everyone listening learned a lot. I know I did.

I hope the biggest takeaway is our mental and emotional health is just as important as our physical health. We should find the things on a daily basis to stay mentally and emotionally in shape, so to speak. And that might be therapy. And that might be therapy. It's great. And therapy is a safe thing that you should not feel judged about.

Absolutely. Also use essential oils, nannahoyles.com. 20% off with code, make it natural. It really does. I use it for anxiety all the time and my headaches. And it is great. And it really has helped me a lot. I also think about being stranded on an island

that's full of winter. Whatever imagery works for you. But no, yes. I hope the people listening do find this helpful I do sincerely thank you for being with us it's been a lot of fun it's fun to be able to open up and feel safe

and talk about it and it's not that hard I can't wait to read all the reviews and get anxious I do love your reviews hopefully if the reviews and get anxious. I do would love your reviews. Hopefully, if the people listening, feel free to rate us on iTunes. You can listen to us also and watch us on YouTube and listen to us on Spotify and other platforms.

Keep sending your questions. Ask Nick at castmedia.com. Make it interesting and fun. Try to change it up. If you have an interesting dating story, maybe something weird happened in the bedroom, we'd love to hear about it. I don't know. This money problems one,

I really liked that one. It was interesting. Always a lot of variables when it comes to that stuff. But anyways, thanks everyone. We'll see you next week. Have a great day.