The Viall Files - E937 – Going Deeper with Michelle Saniei: A Marriage Horror Story

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper edition.  You’ve seen the lies, the toxicity, and the deceit, all on screen… but what happened when cameras went down? We’re incredibly excited to be joined by Michelle Saniei to share her side of the story on her marriage to Jesse Lally, this season of the Valley, and more. You certainly will not want to miss it.  “Do you think he’s a monster?"   Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774286896 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod   Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w   Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  Are you struggling with any sort of dating, relationship, or life dilemma? Do you want all the answers? Email [e-mail] with your question in the subject line to express interest in appearing on the show!  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Bilt - Start paying rent through Bilt and take advantage of your Neighborhood Benefits by going to https://joinbilt.com/viall  Cozey - Transform your living space today with Cozey. Visit https://cozey.com the home of possibilities, made easy.  Wildgrain - For a limited time, Wildgrain is offering our listeners $30 off the first box - PLUS free Croissants in every box - when you go to https://wildgrain.com/viall to start your subscription. Manscaped - This Father’s Day, skip the boring gifts and give Dad something he’ll actually use! Head to your local CVS today, grab The Lawn Mower® 3.0 Plus Refined Kit, and give Dad the gift of top-notch grooming this Father’s Day Timestamps: (00:00) - Intro (00:13) - Join Reality TV (07:51) - Cracks In The Marriage (14:36) - Fatherhood (25:29) - How Intentional Is He? (30:41) - Family and Loss (35:00) - Infidelity Accusation (37:08) - Money Problems (39:46) - Torture (47:10) - Aaron (49:45) - Friendships and Seating Charts (53:14) - Softer Side Of Jesse?  (55:01) - Final Advice and Outro Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @michelle.saniei @ciaracrobinson @justinkaphillips  @leahgsilberstein @dereklanerussell  

You're crazy. Michelle, welcome to the Vile Files. Thanks. Are you nervous, excited? How are you feeling? I always get nervous the first few minutes, but I am excited to talk. Okay. Yeah.

We're excited to talk to you too. I feel like you are a hero. You are brave for what you have gone through in that marriage. Yeah, I mean. He's like, yeah, no I'm not. I mean, and you just know the glimpse of it. You don't really know. I mean, I cannot even imagine.

That's my goal today is I want to know all of it. I want to feel like when we get done talking that I've- That you were also married to Jesse. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I want everyone listening to get the full experience. I'll try my best, but like after this, I think I'm so sick of his name and him. I'm like, I don't want to talk about him anymore.

That's fair. Very fair. Yeah. But after today. Right, right, right. After today. But I mean I do I do want to start how we often start with these is is someone who's been on reality TV. I'm a fan of it. I'm fascinated by it. I know I'm probably more than the average person

about how the sausage is made and what it takes. I think lately I've also been trying to communicate to my audience the importance of appreciating what you all do for our entertainment. Reality stars in general. Nell and I have been asked various times if we would be interested in. Would you? No, absolutely fucking not.

Because yeah, because I think it takes a lot to open up yourself, your life, your family for us to judge and pick apart and critique and question. So I am just kind of fascinated, just like what position were you in? What was your state of mind? How were you approached by this whole experience and what made you say yes in the first place?

I'd love to start there. It is kind of crazy looking back and thinking about it because I say I was a little naive about it. I had never watched reality TV, so I didn't know how crazy it could get. Isabella, my daughter, was about six months old. We were friends with Jackson and Brittany and they pitched us the idea. And I was like, you know, mom

world. I wasn't working at the time. I was barely like getting any rest. I was tired. And then when he mentioned it, like, let's do a show. I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I really never thought it was going to happen. And then a couple years later, we get a call and they're like, hey, it seems like we're moving forward and we're gonna start in a month. Yeah. And this was, you know, we weren't, Jesse and I weren't doing so well when she was little. Like that started just our marriage falling apart. But the time that they said we're gonna do this show, that's when I was really unclear about what was gonna happen.

And so I just, I'm very easy going. I'm just like, yeah, whatever. Like, I just said yes. And I thought, okay, we can be open. We can show our problems. But like, I didn't know all of this was gonna happen. Yeah, that's wild. Do you feel like looking back because it's, you know, were you friends with Brittany and

Jax through Jesse? Like, were Jesse and Jax first? They were, but they weren't friends for many, many years. They had a falling out in New York in their 20s. I didn't even know he was friends with Jax until after we were married. He was like, hey, I reconnected with this guy. I want you to meet Jax and Brittany.

I didn't know who they were. So the first time I met Brittany, I didn't know she was on reality TV. Her and I clicked and I just kind of became in that group because I was always hanging out with them. What made, what made Jesse reconnect with Jacks? Like, I think it was just like, they were both, we had just gotten married and I think Jacks was engaged and somehow through Instagram,

they just kind of like started talking again. Probably. Did you feel like Jesse knew more about you was engaged and somehow through Instagram, they just kind of like started talking again. Probably. Do you feel like Jesse knew more than you or? Oh, a hundred percent. He always wanted to be an actor. That's why he went to New York. He wanted to be an actor.

That's why he moved to LA. He wanted to do reality TV. He tried to do million dollar listing LA 10 years ago. Like that has always been him. He has wanted do reality TV. He tried to do million dollar listing LA 10 years ago. Like that has always been him. He has wanted this so much and I'm the polar opposite. I was like, I'm a business girl. Like I only know real estate and that's all I ever wanted to do.

So we have two completely different personalities. He goes into everything. He's very scripted. He has everything like in his mind of what he wants done. You can kind of see that. I feel like we kind of mentioned that before. Do you feel like if you would have watched reality TV, you maybe wouldn't have done it,

or do you feel like you were just so like, go with the flow? Probably. No, probably. Because I just thought like, okay, it'd be another source of income, and we get to hang out with our friends who we already hang out with.

I really didn't see the danger. I mean, being in real estate, you probably would have gotten more clients. And that was another thing I thought, hang out with our friends who we already hang out with. Like I really didn't see the danger. I mean, being in real estate, you probably would have gotten more clients. And that was another thing I thought, cause I was like, okay, like million dollar listing, all of them grew their business. So I actually thought it could benefit us.

You know, because obviously you guys were so married at the time, do you feel like you even had the option to say no to this opportunity or? I never really had a voice with him. It was whatever he wanted. But again, I was really easygoing. Like I'm a very easy girl and sorry, that doesn't sound right, but I'm very easygoing.

And so I just said like, yeah, let's do it. That makes sense. And so what conversations, if any, easygoing or not, like you can see you acknowledge that like, at this is a time and already your marriage Had its cracks and did you guys as a couple sit down with any type of? Conversations about like Nia and dark Danny have been a topic of conversation And we were talking about it in terms of you know, Brittany was frustrated them because they're not opening up and I get it Like, you know, Brittany is like this old school reality TV star

who is like, this is what we do, you know? We show, we are vulnerable. And we could argue whether Nia and Danny aren't meant for reality TV, but there's something to be said about a couple who like prioritizes their marriage first, who gets on the same page first, who doesn't feel like they owe anything to anyone

outside of their marriage, and they might sit down and say, hey, okay, we're gonna take a risk as a couple, and we're gonna do this show, and hey, we could use the money, and maybe this will help our business. Before we do this, what are some boundaries and some rules that we have as a couple

to make sure that we don't lose whatever we have here? I'm guessing, do you guys have those conversations? No, we didn't have these conversations. It just kinda happened fast. We had NBC people come over our house, they really liked us, and it was just like, all right, we're gonna start shooting in a week. We did not have these conversations.

Wow. Did you have a lot of fears on your own about like that? Or were you, it was just kind of a whirlwind or? I was just nervous because as you can see, compared to everybody else, like I'm just quiet. I'm more to myself, I'm more reserved, I'm an introvert. So I was just like, I didn't know what that was gonna be like, and I just said, I'm gonna be myself.

I'm not gonna act and pretend to be this person that I'm not. So I was just worried about how I was gonna be portrayed or looked at, but I really honestly was very naive about it. Do you feel like Jesse kind of like turned it on in a sense for the cameras or do you think he's just that's who he is? It's both. He turns it on with anybody he wants to. Like he has a very good way. Like he has a light switch. It's just like, it's on if he likes you, if he thinks you have money or whatever the case is, good way, he has a light switch. It's just like, it's on, if he likes you, if he thinks you have money or whatever the case is,

it's like he has this persona, that's not really who he is. Because you guys had cracks in the marriage, I think fans have questioned if you guys already knew that the divorce was happening. And it was like, you know what, fuck it, let's do this on TV. And at least this will be a great way to kick off a show, a messy divorce.

Unfortunately, that's not what happened. I was really confused and he already knew that I wanted to divorce. I had asked for a divorce a year prior and he had begged me and asked me for a chance and I gave him the list of things like, if you want this marriage to work, I need you to do A, B and C. What were those, what was on that list?

I mean, there was a lot, but the major problems. I mean, every marriage has problems, but when you have a lot of big, big problems, then it's obviously not good for a marriage. One of them was his drinking. He was just at the time drinking way too much every single day. You know, he would drink bottles of vodka, vodka on the rocks. And when you have a baby, that's just not doable. We had financial issues, meaning that he was, I was meant to stay at home and take care

of the baby and he was out all day, but he was just not working. He was just the opposite, going out and spending money. And it was just like a constant battle of spending and spending and spending. And he always says like, we were fit. He says it now, we were 50% business partners, but he spent 90% of our money. And it was very frustrating, because I'm like, I'm at home taking care of our baby, and you're just spending all our money,

and I couldn't control that or control him. Would he acknowledge that at this point? He always made excuses, no. He'll say like, oh, I deserved it, or it was a family trip, so it's fine, and it wasn't fine. But he wouldn't deny spending the money. Like if he were here on the couch and I was like, hey, what do you have to say to this?

What do you think he would say? It's hard because every time you ask him the same question, it will be a different response. So it just depends. Sometimes he will acknowledge it and sometimes he's like, she's crazy. I don't know what she's talking about. And it's also like you were home with your child and you could have been like,

listen, I can be out there working, but like this is, it's like you could have done something to help your family, but you were also like taking care of the child and saving money that way by like not having to spend money on a babysitter or a nanny or daycare or whatever it was. So yeah, it's like a double end of losing money. Yeah.

I mean, I say it's like kind of being with a gambler. Like you can't be married to kind of being with a gambler. Like you can't be married to an alcoholic, to a gambler. And I felt like he was kind of that person. And so it was very hard on me to just watch him not grow as a person. And he was just going backwards once I had a baby. That's when it like started.

Yeah, once I had a baby, it completely changed. How was he like throughout your pregnancy? Did you feel like he was very supportive or like, like Nick was very cautious about like the environment that I was in when I was pregnant. It was very much like no one fucking stressed her out, like stay away from her if you have drama, do not bring it in this house. Was Jesse like that or did he start fighting with you? I'm gonna take it back. He changed once I became pregnant. I started seeing a different side of him, just not being there for me or being supportive

and intimacy started changing the moment I became pregnant and that was another big problem that I had in our marriage. Like he wasn't touching you? He wasn't. Wow. Never. And I bet that, I mean, I think every woman feels, Like he wasn't touching you, he wasn't. Wow. Never. And I bet that, I mean, I think every woman feels, you know, your body's changing, you're getting larger,

you don't feel sexy. And then to have a partner who's also not showing any interest, it's like, okay, so you're confirming everything that's in my head. That must've been very hard to deal with. It was really hard because it was just, like all he cared about was himself and what he looked like and how good he looks.

And it was just like, give me compliments. I'm like, wait a minute, why can't it be both ways? Why do I have to constantly do all of these things for you? And so it just took a toll mentally. Yeah, I mean, I even heard in the boys chat that he said I was fat while I was pregnant. Like it was really bad and I'm glad that I left. That's crazy.

Do you think he was excited to be a dad? He was, but I don't know if he really knew what that meant. Oh, say more. What do you mean by that? I mean, I think I get what you're saying, but I'd love for you to elaborate. Obviously you get married, you have a child, like both of you have to put in the work.

It's a lot of work. It is so much work. You can't depend one person to do it all. And that was him. And on top of that, it was like I said, like he was going backwards in life. He started drinking more. He started doing drugs.

He started just doing all these things in his 40s when he wasn't doing that before we got married or while we were married. Really? So he, okay, what kind of drugs was he doing? when he wasn't doing that before we got married or while we were married. Really? So he, okay, what kind of drugs was he doing? He started doing coke after Isabella was born and our entire relationship, we were together for years.

I'm very anti drugs and so was he. He was like, people don't do that. That's an absolute no. And then once I had a baby, I started noticing things, I started asking him, because it was very apparent and obvious, and I could see him lying to my face, and it was just very difficult.

That's crazy. What was he, I mean, I guess, just to backtrack a little bit, what was he like when you first met? Very different. Because everybody's, and it is kind of crazy to think like how we started and how we ended up. He, first of all, we met in 2015

and he lived in a one bedroom little apartment in West Hollywood, was doing okay in real estate. He was very sweet. He would always make me dinners, like wine and cheese, buy a 20 bottle of wine, like very average guy from Boston. And we got along really well and we became business partners immediately. So we had that in common. We were just always going out and it was a lot of fun, but it was like we were on the same train. It's like we went out, had a couple of drinks and that was it. We loved to

travel, we had a really good life. And then finally, once I had a baby, it was like he decided to start hanging out with Jax and all of these people and then started doing drugs. I mean, we've obviously had Jax recently open up about his drug addiction to cocaine, I can only imagine that probably had something to do with Jesse venturing into that path. Yeah, I mean, they hung out. So it's obvious that he did it. He would probably deny it, but. What do you think being a father meant to Jesse?

Not yet. To him, it was like the picture perfect family. It's like, I got my daughter, I got my wife, everything looks good, but he didn't do the work or care about anything. What did he think his responsibility was as a dad? Honestly, I don't know. Cause like he wasn't providing, he was spending.

He wasn't like protecting. Or just like the little, I mean like just when. And I don't know what he expected because it was years and years and years of him not being intimate with me, spending all our money, drinking too much, just not being a good husband. And so finally I fell out of love with him and then it's very frustrating watching season one

because he has this act of he's trying so hard, but I gave him, I told him the answer is like, I didn't want to get divorced, I wanted to be married. I loved him very much and he just didn't do the work. And yeah, that was obvious. Why do you think, you know, because obviously season one, towards the end,

when you were like, hey, I'm not happy, I kind of hate you and I want a divorce, and he really went into into the victim mindset of, I can't believe this is happening to us or me and please give me another chance and he's crying. But if we're trying to give Jesse the benefit of the doubt or at least if we try to at least put ourselves in his shoes, why do you feel like he had such a hard time

being a guy claiming to wanna make this marriage work? Why do you think he had such a hard time being a guy claiming to wanna make this marriage work? Why do you think he had such a hard time just doing anything to try to save it? Because yeah, well, why do you think that? I think one, he never thought in a million years I would actually leave because I tried to leave once and he convinced me of staying. So he was like, I have a kid with her.

But once that happens, you, it's in your head. Yeah, you would think. And he did try for a couple of weeks and then we moved into the Marmont house. And it was like, the day that we moved in, we had movers and he got so wasted with his friend and I have the baby and I'm directing all the movers of what to do and everything.

And he was so drunk out of his mind, he couldn't walk to his bed. And I'm like, this is like a moment for me. I've never lived in a house. Like, it was a big moment that we were moving into a house. Like your first house with your family, like your daughter. Exactly, yeah. And it was just like another little example of like,

this should be a special moment or a nice moment. Like, you don't need to get drunk with your guy friend on the corner while we have movers and a child and trying to figure everything out. like this should be a special moment or a nice moment. Like you don't need to get drunk with your guy friend on the corner while we have movers and a child and trying to figure everything out. Did that kind of feel like a pattern of like he would ruin special moments for you? A lot, often, yeah.

What was your birth like with Isabella? I've mentioned it. It was hard because I was pregnant and I had her in April, 2020, which was the worst time of COVID. Yeah, wow. Every day the law was changing in the hospital, whether a parent could go in or if one person could go in. So I didn't even know. And I was always afraid of giving birth. Like that was my one thing. I hate hospitals, blood, pain, all of that. So I remember having contractions at like 9 PM.

This is like April 13th. And he's going to bed and I'm like, I'm starting to feel it. He's like, well, try to go as long as you can because they always send you back from the hospital. If you're not, if you're not like close enough, close enough. Exactly. So all night he slept. He's like, wake me up when you think you're not like close enough close enough exactly so all night he slept he's like wake me up when you think you're ready to go so he slept the entire night in our master bedroom and I'm texting my sister she's like you

know time your contractions and like the whole night I was in a lot of pain and it's finally like 8 a.m. or 7 a.m. and I'm like I need to wake him up so I wake him up he's like very well rested I'm like we need to go really like I remember I couldn't up, he's like very well rested. I'm like, we need to go really, like I remember I couldn't really breathe. He's like, I'm gonna make you breakfast and then we can go. So he gave me a bite of eggs and I threw up immediately and I'm like, I need to go to the hospital now.

So I check in, they give me the epidural. That was kind of an argument because he didn't really want me to have it but I said, I'm having it. I was in so much pain. Why didn't you have an opinion? Yeah, I was about to say this isn't the truth. He had an opinion about everything.

If it were up to him, which he tried to convince me while I was pregnant, I would have had a water birth at home, in the bath, all natural by myself with him. Based off of what knowledge that he had? He doesn't believe in doctors and medicine and all of that. Just cocaine? Yeah. Wow. knowledge that he had. He doesn't believe in doctors and medicine and all of that. Just cocaine? Yeah. Wow.

I mean, it's like, again, my sister's a holistic nutritionist and she's into all that stuff, but like she went to school and studied and like, you know, if I ask her a question, she can articulate a point of view and, you know, not just like to be different. So long story short, I was at seven centimeters for 20 hours and I was getting high blood pressure. I was starting to get really ill and the doctor's like, we need to give you Potosin to help you. And Jesse was very anti, absolutely not. And so my-

Does he even know what that is? I think he did. I probably did a quick Google search like while they said it. And then it was like, no, you can't. So he's fighting with my. Imagine playing doctor at a hospital. He's, he's arguing with the doctor and like, I barely can

breathe and I'm just not feeling good. And finally, I just hear the doctor like, I'm overruling you. This can affect the baby and Michelle. And so he did it. And then finally I had Isabella and he had about 15 minutes with her and had to go home. So I had to be at the hospital by myself. Why do you have to go home?

For COVID. COVID. Yeah, so he was allowed like 15 minutes with her. Wow. And that was the start. I was about to say, and then I can't even imagine like postpartum, obviously you go through so much physically,

mentally, emotionally and like. Thankfully I didn't have any postpartum depression. Thank God, cause then I really don't know what I would have done. But it was overall really hard because I didn't have my mom come visit. Nobody knew what it was. At the time everybody was like cleaning Amazon boxes.

And I'm like, I don't want my baby to have COVID. Nobody's coming to visit. And so I just did everything on my own. Jesus. Wow. And he- He was present when she was born because he had no option.

Everything was closed down. There were no work, no restaurants, no nothing. Was he helping you with like the pumps and all that stuff? No, I breastfed. That was also very important that I always only breastfed. So I breastfed for almost over a year, almost a year and a half. For Jesse, it was important?

It was important to me, but to him. No, I mean, it was important to us, but I'm just kind of curious how opinionated he was about what you should do with your family. Now looking back, I was just so used to, like that was my relationship. It is kind of crazy to think like who I am now. And I think that's part of his frustration

because he can't control me anymore. Was there a part of you that when you, once you had Isabella, you started seeing all these changes in your husband. Was there a part of you that, like did a lot of this happen in front of Isabella? Like the way he spoke, we see the way he speaks to you on TV. So did he speak to you like that in front of Isabella? Like the way he spoke, we see the way he speaks to you

on TV. So did he speak to you like that in front of Isabella? Yeah. And I saw it starting to affect her. And like, even if he raised his voice a little bit at me, like she would say like, guys, or like she didn't want us. And she couldn't, like she wouldn't even allow Jesse to come close to me and hug me

because she had never seen Jessie give me a hug. So it was very odd to her. And I just started realizing how like, this was her new normal life. And I'm like, this is not normal for my husband or her dad to like not hug me. And that's weird to my daughter. That's when I knew like, something's not right.

Did it cross your mind like her growing up and like choosing her partner and how that would affect her long-term? Yes, and that is what gave me the courage to leave. If I didn't have her, I don't know if I would have left. And somebody said that to me, the life coach was like, what would you say to your daughter if she was married to a Jesse?

And that just opened up my eyes and I'm like, I can't do this for her. Attention renters. If you haven't heard of BILT, you're about to thank me earn your favorite airline miles and hotel points through BILT just by paying your rent on time. Let me explain. There's no cost to join and just by paying rent, you unlock flexible points that can be transferred to your favorite hotels and airlines, a future rent payment or your next Lyft ride and more. When you pay rent through Build, you unlock two powerful benefits. First, you earn one of the industry's most valuable points on rent every month no matter

where you live or who your landlord is. Your rent now works for you. Second, you gain access to exclusive neighborhood benefits in your city. Built-neighborhood benefits are things like extra points on dining out, complimentary post, workout shakes, free mats and towels at your favorite fitness studios, and unique experiences that only built members can access. And when you're ready to travel, built points can be converted to your favorite miles and hotel points around the world, meaning your rent can literally take you places.

So if you're not earning points on rent, my question is, what are you waiting for? Start paying your rent through built and take advantage of your neighborhood benefits by joining joinbilt.com slash V-I-A-L-L. That is J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com slash V-I-A-L-L. Make sure to use our URL so they know that we sent you. Joinbilt.com slash V-I-A-L-L to sign up for your BILT today. Guys, every great home has that cozy room

that you like to just sit down, relax, and put on your favorite movie. And that's where our new favorite furniture company has been a great ally for us, and we couldn't be more excited. Cozy has firmly believes that your furniture should be modern, adaptable, and worry-free. You know that feeling when your furniture arrives and you're wondering if this will even fit through the door. With Cozy, you have eliminated that problem for you with everyday home furnishing made easy. Cozy is built for real life, designed

to be practical and modern while making furniture with functional innovation at every step. With their modular designs, you have endless reconfiguration possibilities. When you're ready to switch up a room, Cozy makes a refresh as easy as possible. So if you want that L to the right or if you want that L to the left, maybe you want that L to be a full on bed. With Cozy, everything is possible. And if you're anything like my wife, one week you might want it on the left and the other week you want it on the right. Cozy, it makes it easy to mix it up every time you want to change it up. Open up new home possibilities. Furniture shopping should be fun and Cozy makes the

process easy and enjoyable. It's your home, so make it your way. Cozy believes in the idea of easy everything. We love washable pieces, obviously, with kids and dogs, and Cozy kept that in mind while designing your pieces, with washable possibilities and interchangeable covers, making cleanup simple and stress free. They actually created the first of its kind

modular sofa bed, where comfort meets convenience without compromising on looks. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit Cozy, C-O-Z-E-Y.com. The home of possibilities made easy. I keep going back to like, here's what's fascinating to me about your ex-husband is that he comes across, I've never met him in person.

I hope to have an opportunity to have him on this couch. We'll see if he's up for it. He'll be very charming. He'll try to change how you feel about him. I'm sure he will. I look forward to that opportunity. I don't know if he's met me before. He comes across as a guy who cares deeply

about what people think of him. And yet he comes across on TV as an absolute fucking asshole. I know what it's like to go on TV, not knowing what it's like and not wanting to be the villain and turning out to be a villain. And be like, villain, you know, and turning out to be a villain. And be like, oh, you know, and then have an editing room, just kind of focus on just some stupid looks you make or some like sarcastic remarks you make and have them package that into like a persona that you didn't even try to play.

But the benefit of going on multiple seasons and recurring seasons is one, everyone loves a comeback, an arc. And we had Tom Schwartz here the other day and he tells us that we're gonna see a softer side of Jesse and maybe we will, but I hate him so much as a character on a show. And he comes across as so unlikable, even for the guy who, that's the part I don't get, you know what I'm saying?

Like, he doesn't seem like he's an idiot, for the most part, so he's smart, cares deeply what people think, and like, he had the benefit of watching himself on season one. How is he showing up in being such a prick? And he's trying his hardest, because I'm telling you, like, he had a binder, he had scripts, he has ideas,

he goes in there completely with an agenda. What do you mean by a binder? Of like what he wants to say, once he wants to do everything. For example, being friends with Kristin, like that was a very strategic thing that he did because he knew that that was gonna bother me. He knew that that was gonna like have people love him.

He has this binder. Was the underwear in that binder because. Yeah. He was, I don't know if you guys realized, he can drink so much and be okay. He was so drunk the entire time in Santa Barbara. So drunk. So that was late.

And I don't think he was expecting anybody to go in his room. What made him buy that underwear in the first place? I just more like. So I have to say he did have night underwear, like sleeping underwear and daytime underwear. What's the difference? One of them you sleep, so. Just get skims, man.

You know, they're pretty great. But he didn't have those while I was married to him. I don't know. You know, we love Downton Ab But he didn't have those while I was married to him. I don't know. You know, we love Downton Abbey. So was he in his night comfy underwear when he got caught on camera? Yeah, that's where his cozy panties.

His cozy panties. That was crazy. So he really planned out, he plans everything he's gonna do for this show. Yeah, and I'm the complete opposite. I'm like that. But it's not working for him. It's not.

And he tries so hard, but like the real him comes out here and there. And I'm like, people don't really see like the fool, Jesse, you just see bits and pieces. At the scene early on this season where you go, I think it might have been the first episode, you go to his house to kind of talk about the schedule with Isabella and he starts crying and you're like, come on, don't do this.

Like you knew that that was. You can tell him cry and he'll cry. Like tears, he can do it, no problem. That acting class really, really was. So you think we've only seen fake tears from Jesse? I think so. I mean, the only thing is his ego was really hurt in season one, but I think it was just all for the cameras.

Do you think it's more like, the way you talk, you know, it's like, I'm trying to figure out whether he was just always kind of a bad guy, a bad partner with bad expectations of what it meant to be a good partner, a good husband, or a good, or do you feel like he changed as a person? I think now looking back, he was always kind of a bad guy,

but he has good ways of like hiding it. I think to his core, he's not a great guy. Like he thinks about himself before others first. And I think that's the biggest problem that I had with him because I'm the opposite, I think about others first. And I think that's the biggest problem that I had with him because I'm the opposite, I think about others first. And so, I mean, he used to always tell me like, growing up, people always said that I was entitled and it's because he does think he's better than everybody.

He thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. He'll say it, he'll probably say that to your face. He just thinks he's better and smarter. What was? You're usually not when you think that. You're also not supposed to be the smartest person in every room. You're the wrong room.

Yesterday I went to go see houses and there's some people that are barely learning that we're not together. And I ran into agents that knew us really well. They're like, wait, you're not together? That makes perfect sense. I always wanted to tell you. And so many people are like, just telling me like,

you guys should have never ended up together. I never saw it. I'm like, why didn't people tell me? Thanks, Mal. My parents said that once about my second girlfriend. I was like, could have been, you know. But I think sometimes, you know, we're not very receptive to it in the moment.

I was just gonna ask what your family was like at home, like growing up, Were your parents together? Are they together? My parents were married until I was 13. They were really in love with each other, but my dad had a mental disorder. So he left the family. Sorry. But I'm the youngest.

I have a brother and sister and I came from like the most loving, normal family, I guess you could say ever. I'm very close to my family. I'm trying not to get emotional because my mom passed away. Oh, I'm so sorry. When did you pass? In November. Oh my God. Yeah. So that was another thing in this season that I was going through so much with Jesse and he knows that my mom was very sick and in chemo. And so I was just like unwell

because I was dealing with his bullshit and my mom's chemo. And yeah, she passed away after filming me. Do you think he has any idea? Yeah, I'm just really sorry. That must, I just can't imagine like going through that and then having Jesse who was like supposed to be your human, you know, your rock, your partner like terrorize you. And that's why sometimes I hate him so much and it shows because he never gave me sympathy. He never like, he was just never caring whatsoever.

Like never had your back. I know. It's really hard, I'm really sorry. Thanks. Do you think he's kind of like a monster? Yeah, I wish he wasn't and I wish I could say he's this like wonderful person and I hope that one day he can grow, but he never has.

Was your mom really proud of you for getting out of that marriage? Yeah. She was very happy that I left and in the summer she had to have immediate surgery and so I drove to San Diego and my family saw me really unwell and it was the day after Dave and Buster's and so I hadn't slept and I cried all night and I didn't want to say anything and my family's like, what's wrong? And I was just in my head because I didn't know what to say. And I'm like, I don't want to say this. She was in the hospital and she's like, just tell me. And I'm like, Jesse called me a hooker on national TV. And my whole family was just like,

we knew what a disgusting person he is, but he'll never be accepted in our family in the future. Did he ever reach out to you after your mom passed? Yes, I had Isabella FaceTime him. And I said that she needed to let him know. And she called him and told him, she said, grandma went to heaven. And he actually sent me a nice text, a very nice text saying like,

I'm so sorry for your loss. If there's anything I can do, please let me know. And so that day was my day with Isabella. And I'm like, I don't, an hour later, I'm like, I don't think I can take care of her. I need you to please take over. And we actually talked to a therapist once about Isabella and how we were going to handle my mom's passing because she was so close to her and we were on the same page. And the therapist told Jessie like, you need to, you need to be better with Michelle. She's going to need you and you're going to need to take Isabella more days because she's going to need to grieve on her own without Isabella. So I text him, I need you to take care of her that day.

And he's like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm already on my way to OC, I can't. And so hours later, somebody must have told him something, but he's like, why don't you get a nanny and I'll pay for it tonight. And that was the only nice thing he's ever really done. And that wasn't even to me, like, I mean, he couldn't, but the OC is where his, the girlfriend is, so he couldn't even be like, hey, I mean, he couldn't, but the OC is where his, the girlfriend is.

So he couldn't even be like, hey, this is a little bit more important. I'm gonna- My child's grandmother died. Yeah. Even if he didn't wanna make it about you, you know. So that's all I can say. Like, this is why I'm so angry and I'm still angry

because it's just like one after the other and there's only so much I could take. And I just realized like he was awful to me and he's continuing to be. And there's just like, that's why I talk about him. And it's hard not to, because he does so much to me that people have no idea. Yeah, he doesn't hold back at all.

Do you think his accusing you of the infidelity is all part of his, is in his binder his binder so to speak and part of his plan? Yeah, so we actually met because he said I want to speak before the summer so that we're on the same page So he made me go to his friend's house and sat me down and he's like, I don't want you to talk about our finances I don't want you to say a word like that was so important to him, the finances, because he's in a lot of trouble. And I said, okay.

And he's like, tell me the truth about what happened. So I told him the story. I made a mistake before I left him. That's part of the reason why I left him, because I knew I no longer wanted to be in this marriage. I kissed somebody, I should have never done it. And that's it. And so he's like, have you ever been with Aaron? I'm like, absolutely not. That happened after I asked for a divorce. And so he knew

everything before the summer. I was very clear. I answered all of his questions. I said, for Isabella's sake, can we please not discuss this? And he's like, I swear I will not say this on TV. And every single day, he was fixated and that was all he could around. And he knew that that wasn't the case. He was the one always gone. God knows what the hell he was doing for eight hours a day. I mean, even the whole like, Erin lives by Runyon, she would wear makeup to Runyon

and she would put the honey in. It was just, it felt very calculated. And so it does make sense that you say that like, he has all of this planned out because it seems very planned out Yeah, and I didn't wear makeup to run you in but also like it's LA Everyone's wearing makeup to run you and like you never know who you're gonna meet Literally hiding behind bushes

Yeah, so he was aware he just wanted the world to know and to paint me as this like bad person And he got what he, like I don't know what he got from it but. What kind of money problems does he have? I mean the gay man is sending him money. Were you just kind of being petty there? I wasn't being petty, I was trying to make a point because he knew that somebody had sent me money

and I told him why and he knew this person very very well and I'm like Why are you allowed to make up shit about me? But I'm not allowed to talk about your finances or what's actually going on But no like the same time that I got a payment He also got a payment from somebody which was more than I got so it's just Frustrating because he's always trying to create this narrative. And I'm just like, stop saying things about me. I'm tired of being silenced. His lies are based off these tiny truths that he then snowballs into something more

nefarious and that makes you look worse. Exactly. And so is it like his money problems are just from like overspending or? Like I said, he's just an overspender. If we, I'm just going to throw out numbers, like if we made $500,000 a year, he spent $800,000. It was just like constant, constant. I have to take my family to Europe.

And he spent $120,000 just on his mom, dad, and brother. Like he was spending an enormous amount, not just like, you know, a thousand dollars here. No, it was like $1,000 here, no, it was like $10,000 lunches. I'm going to Napa for the weekend, I'm spending $30,000. It was just nonstop and I was watching just like, it drop and drop and drop and it wasn't for me. Yeah.

We had Tom here and he was like, oh, Jesse might not be like great, but he's an amazing father and he loves his daughter I I get frustrated sometimes when I hear stuff like that because it's like I think sometimes especially dads it's like they just decide that they're good dads because their version of Love I don't know. I'm sure he loved I'm sure Jesse thinks he loves his daughter But like how you show up for your family to me is a demonstration of whether you're a good father or not.

And I say he's a good father because he's able to by himself take care of Isabella and do all of the things where I don't know if every man can do that on their own. He's able to do that. You trust him to feed her three meals a day and like give her a bath and take her to school? You feel that your daughter's safe?

Bare minimum. Absolutely. I think she's safe, but somebody recently told me like, he's not a good dad because of the way he treats you and your daughter's going to see that. So like, yes, he may think he's a good dad, but he's never going to be a good father until he treats you the right way.

Right. Unless he stops. Yeah. Calling you, I yeah, calling you, I mean, calling the mother of his child on national television a lying, cheating whore. I mean, I don't know how you move past that. I still haven't.

I still haven't because I know, like he says it was a mistake that he sent a text. He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew that all those people in the boys chat, one of them was gonna say something, like he implanted that on purpose, instead of saying what he says, which is like, it was a mistake.

I didn't know that people were gonna talk about it. It was a joke. It's so funny, it was just a joke, is what I feel like he keeps, is his excuse for everything. It's like, oh, it's just a joke It's like to who and where is this like he seems like watching it He's his whole sole purpose is to torture you. He seems like an emotional terrorist

I think he he did and has been for the last two years. What do you love about being a mom? Everything. Yeah, she's amazing. She completes me. I'm very involved. I don't believe in, I let her watch like a little TV, but when I'm with her, we love like painting and going to the park and she's very advanced for her age. So like our discussions are really funny and cute. She's actually like, I love the story cause we're just driving and she's like, mommy,

you know, it's okay that your first marriage didn't work out, but you can get married again. I'm like, thank you, you don't need to worry about me, but she's just really adorable. How do you handle, I mean, like one part people watching it and people have a lot of opinions and we have as well, and just obviously like just hearing your side of the story

and now they both have a ton of empathy for you because it really I mean He does he just seems like a lot of this is by his doing and he honestly seems like an emotionally abusive person I don't know how else to describe it I mean, I don't know what how you I don't know like if that's not emotionally abusive to strategize around Like trying to emotionally terrorize and trying to emotionally terrorize your wife or ex-wife. And then maybe the substance abuse problems and the spending problems are a cause of it. But I just don't, that's just how he seems.

I think at the end of the day, it was because of his ego was hurt and he could not imagine that somebody left him and somebody left the perfect family illusion and he cares about what other people thinks. And so that's really what it came down to because I don't think he truly loved me at the end at all. He could have done anything to fix it, and he didn't.

When we all initially separated, did you kind of have a rule or boundary around dating and new people surrounding Isabella. Kind of like, we're not gonna just put anybody around our daughter. Yes, actually he made the rule. He said, he makes a lot of rules. He has a lot of rules for you that don't apply to him.

Correct. He said, we're not introducing anybody to Isabella. You're never gonna introduce a man. I said, well, that's not true. There's going to come a point where I meet, but I will let you know. And if you want to meet them before, or if we want to do it together, like I will let you know and it'll, they'll be the right time. And as her mother, I'll know when that right time is.

And he's like, fine. And then my mom actually was in town doing Isabella's hair. And Isabella told my mom, cause she had like a really nice braid. She's like, did your dad learn how to do a braid? She's like, oh no, daddy's friend came over and did it. And she's like, yeah. And my mom started asking a couple of questions

and she's like, yeah, there was a girl in daddy's bed. And so I started calling him and texting him and I'm like, what's going on? And he's like, what are you talking about? He's like, nobody was here. I'm like, Isabella told me what is going on. And finally he's like, oh, I just had a friend here. I'm like, you told me we weren't introducing somebody

and you just started doing her hair. Yeah. And it's just so frustrating. Cause I'm like, all I care about is Isabella. And it's like, if you're dating her for a week, you don't know if you're gonna date her in a month, like just wait or have a conversation and give me a heads up or anything.

Like just do things the right way. And I've learned like, he's not gonna do what I would do. To me, these things are common sense, but I've just learned like, I can't control him. And is that the same woman who sent you the nasty texts? Yeah. And the cease and desist. Are they still dating?

I've heard they're on and off. But I don't like- What was she, why was she reaching out to you? Recently? Oh, um- I didn't guess in general. I really don't want to talk about her. That's fine.

But, yeah. Yeah. It's fair. I don't want any communication with her. Oh, wow. This episode of The Vow Files is brought to you by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, pastries, and pastas. Wild Grain's boxes are fully customizable to your tastes and dietary restrictions.

In addition to their classic variety box, they recently launched a new gluten-free box in a plant-based box that is 100% vegan. Best of all, they take the hassle out of baking since all items baked from frozen in 25 minutes or less with no mess or no cleanup. Nick has really been in his sourdough era. And let me tell you, the sourdough from Walgreens is so absolutely delicious because I don't have to be one of those likes that got the starter starting in the, in the right temperature overnight.

I don't have to do all of that. No, I just have to have a wild green subscription and I can make my husband happy. I also can make our daughter happy because she loves a croissant. Loves. Loves a croissant and it's so easy to just hand her in the morning, let her walk around the house while I'm actually cooking her breakfast. Truly it is so great. The quality is so amazing. The freshness of the items is unlike any other. Are you ready to bring all of your favorite carbs right to your doorstep? Be sure to check out Wild Grain so you can begin building your own box of artisanal breads,

pastas, and pastries. For a limited time, Wild Grain is offering our listeners $30 off the first box plus free croissants in every box. When you go to wildgrain.com slash viall to start your subscription, you heard me, free croissants in every box and $30 off your first box. When you go to wildgrain.com slash viall, that's wildgrain.com slash viall, or you can use promo code viall. Check out.

Good. Well, Father's Day is right around the corner and I know that every dad out there wants clean smooth balls. I know I want that as well. Let's just be honest. And I always tell you ladies, if your man does not have the designated ball clippers, he's losing your stuff. He just is.

I'm just going to be real. You know, the thing that you use on your legs, you know, on your body, on your armpits, he's using it on his balls if he doesn't have something for his own. So do your manning yourself a favor by upgrading his whole manscaping kit with the people at Manscape. Versatility and precision,

the Lawn Mower 3.0 is waterproof for wet and dry uses and clean up is easy. Just rinse under water. The built-in LED spotlight helps dad tackle hard and hard to reach areas with precision, eliminating missed spots. Give the gift of clean shaving with Manscaped. Also, they have great deodorant, their underwear is fantastic. Everything about Manscaped is for your man and for yourself. Help him, help you. Get a Manscaped. He will thank you this Father's Day.

Join over the 12 million men worldwide who have trusted Manscaped to stay clean, fresh, and confident. Go to manscaped.com and just buy everything on their website. It's affordable, it's great, his balls will thank you. This Father's Day, skip the boring gives and give dad something he'll actually use.

Head over to your local CVS today, grab the Lawn Mower 3.0, plus refine kit and give dad the gift of top-notch grooming this father today Can we talk about Aaron? Yeah, are you still dating? We are dating. Okay good He's my happy place him and Isabella if I didn't have them last summer I don't know where I would be you kind of hinted in the most recent episode, kind of like he was starting to struggle with Jesse, and kind of was like, listen, if this doesn't stop, like, I don't know if we can continue.

How did you move past that with him? I had to learn boundaries with Jesse, because at the time, I was really allowing him to text me all day long and really affect my mood, and it was starting to affect, to affect me when I was with Aaron and he was working so he didn't go to Santa Barbara and he obviously heard what happened and he was just really upset

that he would say those things to me. And he's like, I'm so angry. I can't even be in the same room as him. And so it did take a toll for a while, but we spoke and he's like, you need to take a step back. You need to have boundaries with Jesse. He cannot just talk to you whenever he wants. And so I cut Jesse completely.

If he texts me, I didn't respond. I just didn't have any communication with him unless I had to ask him a question about Isabella. And so that helped me a lot, but it was a process because I was just so used to constantly fighting with Jesse. And so once I cut him off, that made a big difference. And how long have you and Aaron been together now? Almost a year and a half.

Oh, wow. Yeah. And Isabella likes him? Loves him. I actually just moved in two months ago to his house. My lease was up. So I moved out of Marmont. I got an apartment really close by

because I didn't want to affect anything. I lived there for a year. And then finally, it was just like we had the conversation. We have a very strong relationship. And he's like, I want you to move in. I have the space. He has a three-bedroom house. And so we just moved in.

What are some qualities about Aaron that you love that Jesse didn't have? He's a lot like me. He's really easygoing and he doesn't have to show off anything. I love that we go to church every Sunday and he's just like a really nice guy and everybody likes him.

That was the thing about Jesse. I always felt like I had to fight for him and a lot of people convince people all the time and it's just organic and easy with Aaron. And it's like, he's part of this big brother program and he helps kids once a week. And he's just like a very giving person. And when the LA fires happen, like he wanted to donate

and like, how can we help the world? And he's just like a good person. And Jesse just didn't have that. I never had that life with Jesse. Wow. Why did he think of being friends with Kristin would piss you off? First of all, they hated each other. There was a time I was very close to Kristin, which was the first

time I wanted to leave Jesse. I was texting her all the time. I told her when I found the apartment, she couldn't stand Jesse and Jesse could not stand Kristin. all the time. I told her when I found the apartment, she couldn't stand Jesse and Jesse could not stand Kristen. Like the things he has said about her, he just thought she's trash and she's this and that. And like the worst things you can say, he would say about her. Like he didn't even understand how I was friends with Kristen. And like fast forward now, you know, they're friends and it doesn't make sense because I know exactly

what they have said about each other. And he knows like, every, a lot of people do love Kristen and she's like an OG. And so if he tagged with her, then that's just going to be, you know, they have somebody in common. A lot was made of your seat assignment at the reunion. Like, do you have any thoughts on that? And then a follow up to that is like, what do you think your future with this show is? And like, do you think it's something you wanna be a part of?

Well, I've been told that it was the hardest seating chart cause nobody got along and it's like, it was one of the hardest ones to do for a reunion. They said at one point I was in the front and they just kept switching people and at the end of the day like that was the best case. I didn't mind it because I wasn't close to Jesse. I mean it's just a seating chart. Yeah, fans seem to make a big deal about it and there's a lot of speculation on how these things are made but yeah thanks for you know thanks for clearing that up.

It just seems like yeah so everyone hates each other. Good to know. Do you wanna be a part of this? Like knowing that like, it's one thing to be a co-parent, but like choosing to be a part of this show, don't think Jesse's gonna go anywhere unless he's fired. Like, do you? I struggle with that.

I think yes, because it's like, look at what I went through season one and two. Like it's only uphill from now. Right. It's gotta be. Like, I'm like, what else? Like I had the most difficult two, three years of my life. And now I'm finally got out of that situation.

I now have a healthy relationship. My daughter is growing up. Like they are still my friends, you know, some of my best friends. And so it does seem like maybe part of the positive turn seems to be what you growing up, they are still my friends, some of my best friends. It does seem like maybe part of the positive turn seems to be what you referenced earlier, is your ability to no longer allow him to get to you. Because it really seemed like, and it makes sense, right?

You go, you're married for someone for a long time, you have it, okay with them, fine, you finally choose to leave, but that like, I need to respond to this person. We have a kid together, the guilt of like allowing this person to like take up so much of your energy. We kind of see that with Jackson Brittany this season

where he just constantly texts her and she responds and she, you know. I know, Brittany's always like, I always say she's one year behind me and And I'm like, just learn from me. And I was texting her the other day. I'm like, don't engage, don't respond. But you have to go through that. And I think most divorced people,

especially with kids, do have that, like, I don't know what you call it. Like that kind of path where you have to kind of go through all that. Yeah, that makes sense. So you see yourself continuing on this show and kind of just drawing the boundary. Yeah, that makes sense. So you see yourself continuing on this show and kind of just drawing the boundary with Jesse, not letting him get to you,

still being able to hang out with your friends, support your family. I think so. Yeah. Tom mentioned that we might see a softer side of Jesse in season two. And regardless of what we see, I'm curious based off our conversation today,

I'm assuming you don't think we should believe any of it. It's hard because even now, like we're, he's shifted now. The night before the reunion, he decided to change. And so he sent an email to my lawyer. So I have a lawyer, he doesn't. And so I've, my lawyer has gone back and forth with Jesse for months and months.

It's cost me so much money. He's been so unreasonable. And the night before the reunion, I don't, he just like, was like, I'm tired of fighting. I just want to move forward for mental health, settle so we could get divorced. And he went on watch what happens live.

And he's like, Michelle and I are good. And all of his answers were not sincere or the truth. And that's my frustration. I'm like, could you answer one question and just say the truth? Do you kind of think it's because y'all aren't filming right now? You know, like he like performed together.

We're better because we don't talk. Like there is no talking anymore. The way the schedule is, it's like, I drop off Isabella at school, he picks performed together. We're better because we don't talk. Like there is no talking anymore. The way the schedule is, it's like I drop off Isabella at school, he picks her up. So we don't have to see each other right now. And he knew all of this was coming up. I don't know. I do think he will finally, at least he wants to move forward

with the divorce, because that was like another thing that was just dragging and making my life very complicated. But it just like, I think everything again is very strategic for him to go on, watch what happens live and say we're good because he decided that we're now good. And I'm like, life doesn't work that way. You've been treating me like shit every single day.

Like it's a process. Well, Michelle, I appreciate you coming on. I'm sorry you're going through this. I mean, I guess why don't you leave us with a little bit of advice. There's a lot of people out there, I'm sure, sadly going through what you've gone through. And it sounds like you've had to learn some tough lessons,

but if there are any mothers or even husbands out there who listen to you and relate to you with what you're going through, what are some things that you wish you would have done differently to spare yourself some of the mental anguish you've gone through? Oh, so many. First of all, your gut is usually right

about a lot of things. So it's like, if you really are done, not that I'm encouraging divorce, but I don't think it's good to be married and then wait till the child is 10 or 15 years old to do it. I think it's better to do it when they're younger because like even Isabella, like this is her new normal.

She doesn't even remember us together. I think that's really good for children. If you're even considering getting divorced, having somebody do some financial paperwork in the event that if you do get divorced, that everything's okay and you're taken care of. I did it the hard way and I wish somebody told me that because it would have changed a lot of things. Just being responsible, asking questions, like reach out to a lawyer, ask them questions. Is he going to pay you child support? No

So he we were business partners and we split all of the commissions meaning we technically made the same income Which I think he did that on purpose because I didn't work the last couple years and He still was splitting the commission So he doesn't have to pay me a cent. So that's that. Right. Well, you should be very proud of yourself for the place that you're at now versus the place that you were at a few years ago.

You really are, I think to a lot of women listening and inspiration. And I'm very proud of you. I know I just met you, but going through what you went through, losing your mom, having your ex-husband terrorize you, knowing you went through that, you should be very proud of yourself and where you are now. Thank you.

Thank you for coming on. Oh, well, what kind of people find you by the way? Plug. Instagram, Michelle.SunnyE. Yeah, we'll put it in our box. All right, Michelle, I appreciate you coming on. Thanks for being so vulnerable and sharing. You're great.

And I think a lot of people will appreciate you sharing your story. So thank you very much. And that's it. I'm not talking about him anymore because that was very Jesse heavy. you