The Viall Files - E949 – Going Deeper with Sherri Papini

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper edition.  8 years ago, Sherri Papini was arrested on federal charges arising from her alleged fabrication of abduction. Six weeks later, she signed a plea deal admitting she had orchestrated a hoax and spent 18 months in prison, followed by 3 years of supervised release and was ordered to pay restitution. Now, she’s here to explain her side of the story. Is Sherri a compulsive liar? Or victim to a biased media narrative? You decide for yourself. “Do you think I’m a good liar?" Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774286896 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  Are you struggling with any sort of dating, relationship, or life dilemma? Do you want all the answers? Email [e-mail] with your question in the subject line to express interest in appearing on the show!  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Wayfair - Don’t wait! Make your outdoor space your dream oasis TODAY with Wayfair, and enjoy it all summer long. Head to https://wayfair.com right now to shop a huge outdoor selection. Constant Contact - Get a FREE 30 day trial when you go to https://constantcontact.com  Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy

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Thank you for having me. Well, thank you for coming. I imagine these must kind of give you anxiety or, you know, you get nervous talking about this story or do you look forward to it because, you know, so many people have doubts. Talking about the story, no. Coming on things like this and definitely not used

to the microphones and cameras. Yeah, this definitely isn't normal. It's not normal, so. Our hope is always when we have these, whether it's obviously a more serious heavy topic like this or, you know, talking to our hope is always when we have these whether it's obviously a more serious heavy topic like this or you know talking to our friends is To just be you know people in a room having a conversation, you know rather than it feeling like an interview So that's you know, ultimately our goal. So hopefully that can rest you at ease a little bit

We just got done watching the new docu-series on max. Have you had a chance to see it? Yeah, and I actually saw it just like everybody else. You know, I, I didn't have creative control on, um, the documentary and wasn't a part of that. So I saw at the same time, everybody else did. How did that opportunity, uh, present itself? When did you first find out that HBO wanted to do this docuseries and why did you decide to be a part of it?

You know, it was a big collaboration, um, with a team that I've been working really closely with and I really had no idea that HBO was going to pick it up. I'm just the subject, you know, and that's kind of not really a part of anything else there. But it was something that I'm incredibly grateful for.

It was quite shocking. What was shocking about it? That grateful for. It was quite shocking. What was shocking about it? That HBO was going to be producing it. Okay, I didn't know that. What were you hoping that it would be? What were you hoping to get from deciding to be a part of this experience?

Just knowing that you had no creative control. You know, working with the director and the producers of the show, the primary objective for them was to create something that was balanced. I think that they did an exceptional, even extraordinary job at continuing to make sure that it was objective, and it was honest, and it was steeped in integrity and balance. That's pretty terrifying for someone like me because when you have this very biased

opinion going into it when you have to balance something by showing something positive with something negative but you're already going into it with this very negative bias on me it kind of already tips the scales so it was terrifying for me it was terrifying the truth is very easy and I think a lot of people that are familiar with my story and what happened, there was a lot that didn't fit. The primary narrative prior to me engaging in this project, it didn't align. There was a lot of things that were left unsaid and a lot of things that didn't fit. And I think we accomplished that with this documentary. There's a lot of things that I wish could have been in there. There's a lot of things that didn't fit. And I think we accomplished that with this documentary. There's a lot of things that I wish could have been in there.

There's a lot of things that I wish weren't in there. But primarily there was this storyline to what happened to me that didn't seem to flow. Everyone kind of saw the news coverage and it just didn't seem to fit. And now I think we've captured that with the docu-series. Did you watch the one on Hulu that your ex-husband was a major part of?

Sadly, yes, I did. Unfortunately, yeah. What were your initial thoughts on that one? It's heartbreaking. It's extremely difficult to watch your children be exploited in the way mine were, you know? And not being a part of it because that documentary was created while I was in prison. So there's not a lot of capacity for me to fight for my kids.

And it's excruciating to watch both my son and daughter be put in there so much. How old were they in that documentary? Um, they were, you know, around the age of nine and 11. And I don't know when it began exactly. I just know it was primarily filmed when I was in prison, but young enough that they really, it's unnecessary for them to be exploited in the way that they were. And if you notice in ours, their faces are blurred, their audio is removed. And you know, it's as a protective mother and watching the documentary, it did its job in demonstrating

that I'm a caring, loving mother to my children. But of course you just wanna, you know, keep them away from everything and they were really dangerously exploited in it. You mentioned there were things that you wish were in this docu-series and things that you wish weren't. Can you elaborate on both? Well, I think first and foremost,

there is quite a lot of audio on James's very informal interrogation in the documentary. And, you know, there's not to do too much inside baseball, but there's length of time and there's edits and there's things that we can and can't put in the film due to time constraints and things like that. I don't really know too much about that process, quite frankly, but there's a lot of that audio

that's quite shocking. And I think that for me, it's having listened to that audio and studying that audio and listening to law enforcement officers feed him the questions and him starting to lie in the very beginning and then literally saying, here's what we can offer you and we'll make that go away. That's not in there. And it's really valuable and important to the case. And we're expecting this, um, experience to be almost like a trial by media, frankly, because

I didn't get a trial. I signed a plea agreement and those are really valuable, important pieces of my case. What are the things that you wish weren't in there? You know, when you go through the filming process, you're in the chair and you're interviewing for hours. I mean, it was a year process for me. So it was hours and hours and lots of lengthy interviews.

And while there was a relationship developed with my director, she was still not my friend. She was there to be objective and she was there to investigate and find the truth of everything. And so you see little bits and pieces of my personality come out or when I'm nervous or something like that.

And as you know, you guys do this all the time. There's little things that it's captured on film that you're like, oh no, oh, don't put that in there. That's really awkward. So for me, again, I'm under a level of scrutiny that most people aren't. And I've really, it feels like I've been given this life sentence.

So it's difficult to watch those little bits of things that I have no control of being out there that get really humiliated. And it's quite embarrassing. And there's a line, my poor mother, my mother tried to explain something. And when you don't have control over your own audio and it gets cut and clipped, and they don't show where someone has the capacity to rehabilitate, it can be taken wildly out of context.

What part specifically are you referring to? Well, when my mom was kind of stumbling over her words and she was trying to explain what she thought the situation was when she says it's not an abduction and what she came to understand. So it doesn't go into the rehabilitation portion where she comes to say, you know, and then I grew to understand what actually happened. But there's, you know, traumatic effect for everything. So you're, yeah, cause I think that was a part that, you know, we watched that we was like,

oh, her mother doesn't think it was a kidnapping. Well, I mean, it's shocking, it did its job, you know, so. So you're saying that they edited that in the docu-series to make it look like she said that rather than her actually saying that? Or she said more and they just didn't air the rest of what she said. Correct, she was able to rehabilitate herself

quite a lot more and there was a little bit more context surrounding that. So are you saying that's what they did and they changed the context or that your mother changed her mind after she said that? Oh no, my mom definitely knows that I was held captive and that I was kidnapped and that's definitely the stance that she's on.

Like I said, there's context to be added there. And while everything was very confusing in the beginning, we have a greater understanding of what actually happened now. And that is not how my mom feels now. Do you imagine your mom will speak out publicly to clarify that? I think given the opportunity, sure, yeah.

Looking back at, you just mentioned you didn't get the trial, you signed the plea agreement. Do you regret not getting a trial? Well, I mean, if it would have been a trial, Sherry Papini versus James Reyes, I would have yes, absolutely. But that's not what my option was. It was Sherry Papini versus the United States of America. And it's Sherry Papini versus the federal government.

That's quite intimidating. It's not only quite intimidating, but they make the rules. And so it's really difficult to win something that's already rigged. I don't think I would have had a very good opportunity. And in the end, my options were to take accountability. I wanted to take accountability. I didn't want to take as much as they gave me, but I wanted to demonstrate my remorse for the secrecy

and the cover-up and take accountability for what I did. Okay. Have you been paying attention to the internet and opinions about your case and what people have to say, whether they do or don't believe you? Um, I do, you know, I've been in this storm for almost a decade now. So we do a really good job of being able to turn it off. I don't do the read the comments and things like that. But what I found is, you know, generally those

that don't believe are heavily defended people that have been touched by some type of trauma in relation to a circumstance where there's been deceit or someone has lied to them. So I'm sure you can recall in your life someone lying to you or someone being dishonest with you. It kind of gives you this defensive stance, right? That's what it's made for. When we create defenses, it's meant to protect us from something. And so when you're presented with very substantial evidence and then you still turn away and say,

well, I'm just not gonna listen to her because she's a liar, the chances are really likely that you've been traumatized or hurt by someone who's caused that kind of hurt or trauma in your life. And I feel for them, you know, I feel for those people. It's difficult to be up against a lot of other opinions when you haven't lived my life

and you haven't been through the things that I've been through. But again, I really see it as like someone else that's been through something that is preventing them and keeping them in their ignorance and keeping them in somewhere where they just won't look at evidence and become unbiased. What's some of the evidence that you feel exonerates you

or proves your story that you think people are not paying attention to? You know, I think a lot of people are paying attention to it. And I think a lot of people now are seeing that my testimony, it fits, it tracks. That's one thing that my director continued to say is, my testimony, my evidence, it tracks from start to finish. There is a flow to it.

It's very simple and the truth is usually a lot easier to follow and it's a lot simpler to follow. Okay. I think one thing that people who don't or are having a hard time believing your story, I think you mentioned, I think in the docu-series, you kind of ask that question, like, have you ever lied?

Yeah, I think the obvious question for all of us is we all have, right? Which I think makes people kind of wanna empathize with you and things like that. I'm sure you know not all lies are the same, right? I think when a young child might lie. And then there are lies where there's a lie to cover another lie, to cover another lie,

to cover another lie. And I think your original story, the story where you seem to get caught in the lie and you initially blamed it on two Hispanic women and things like that, there was a lot of detail in that lie originally that people I think when they look back and and see your testimony and the

Interrogation from the police officers they seem to have a you know hard time Understanding that story. It's my understanding now that you're saying understanding that story. It's my understanding now that you're saying that your reason for doing it is you're kind of trying to breadcrumb the cops to try to lead them towards James. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. And that's an excellent, that's a very valuable bit of information. I really wish that would have been in the film because the sketch that was created, you know, these aren't made up people. They were real people. And so if you take a picture of James' mother, and it was spoken about briefly in the film, but what they didn't do is they didn't show you

a picture of her. And his mother looks exactly like the sketch. I mean, if you compare the two, you would be like, oh yeah, that's absolutely James' mother. Which one? So the one with her eyebrows. Yeah, it looks exactly like her. And I understand that there is a lot of discomfort

wrapped around watching that interrogation video. There is with me as well. I really, it's heartbreaking to continue seeing it over and over again and to continue seeing what I did to mislead law enforcement officers. And like I've said in the film and even in my book, going into detail about how painful that was for me and how difficult of a situation I was in,

because my intention wasn't to commit a crime and my intention wasn't to try and continue a lie to commit a crime. It was for my own safety. And it was to keep being with my children. I got nearly six years of being at home with my children, keeping this emotional affair that I had a secret. And as you can see in every interrogation video,

especially that last one, my husband's sitting next to me the entire time. And so admitting that I was having an emotional affair and that I had any involvement at all meant losing everything, which is what you see now. Exactly what I was afraid of happening happened. And that last interrogation, it was awful. It was three very aggressive, challenging men. I didn't have my advocate with me. I didn't have any attorney representation. I had an angry husband who was figuring out what was going on. And I had two law enforcement officers who were very much not on my side. And it's really extremely hard to watch. Why did you feel like the thought

of this emotional affair coming to light, your children finding out about it, your husband taking your kids away, was scarier than the law enforcement men saying, this is illegal if you lie to us, and this is a crime, and we'll arrest, you know, like why did the emotional affair seem scarier to you

in that moment? I think that's a pretty good indicator that there were some pretty severe abuse in my relationship. If I am more afraid of my ex-husband than I am of law enforcement and going to prison, and frankly, throughout the three prisons that I've been in, Victorville Federal Prison

was the safest that I felt in 16 years. What did you make of your sister talking about how in the time in which before they realized James was involved that anytime you saw an Hispanic woman or even a woman with a brown curly hair that you had an emotional reaction or you act triggered, essentially accusing you of faking your trauma. Well, I think everyone is held to a degree in this case, and I'm held to a much stronger degree than anyone else. Because I lied and because I have a charge for moral turpitude, I have to provide a lot more than most people. So when a testimony is found to be inaccurate and untrue,

then from then on you have to provide a lot of backup and a lot of evidence. And what I found from the Hulu documentary is it's all just a lot of, you know, in court now we call it hearsay, right? So there's not a lot of evidence to back that up. And there's a lot of emotions that are mixed into it. So I can see where she would feel that way and, and say things like that, but that does not make it true. Do you think she's lying about that? Not necessarily saying that she's lying. I think that there's an over dramatization about some things and not of others. What part of her, I guess, lie or embellishment,

where was she even getting that from? Why do you even think she might have thought that? Well, after the abduction and after captivity, I was very severely traumatized and I was experiencing quite a lot of PTSD. There is a lot of relational pieces that have to do with the abduction. And again, these, the sketches, they're real people, this is not fake people.

Who's the other person? Um, it's someone that was involved. So when James would leave, um, he would have me observed by other people, he would have me watched. So he had, um, a he had two family members that lived in the same cul-de-sac, one of which had a wife, and then we have James' mother.

So these are not made up people, they're real people. And while I know that it's deeply flawed to create people that weren't James, I didn't really have a whole lot of options. And what I did, it's deeply unfortunate. It's deeply unfortunate. And I did the best that I could. And it was interesting to watch my docu-series

and listen to a little bit of inaccuracies as well. I did not request the sketch. I am not the one that requested doing the sketch. In fact, I didn't want to do the sketch. It was my ex-husband that was pushing for it. And you hear the FBI agent say, he was really annoying and he kept getting in the way. There was a lot of demands on his behalf that were very, very uncomfortable.

Did you, the people who helped James, his mother and this other person, did you share that story with law enforcement? Well, no,. Did you share that story with law enforcement? Well, no, I didn't share the story with law enforcement. Everything was a cover up. No, I mean after James's involvement at any point. I don't remember you mentioned that in the docuseries. No, I haven't spoken to law enforcement about anything.

I took the plea agreement. I went to prison. And this is the first time that I'm speaking about it. I haven't formally spoken to law enforcement. So you're saying right now is the first time that I'm speaking about it. I haven't formally spoken to him. So you're saying right now is the first time you kind of mentioning that he had accomplices in your kidnapping? Oh, no. I mean, it's mentioned.

It's just in the make it in the docu-series. It's in the book as well. Did James ever threaten you if he were to give you back to your family? If you tell anyone that this was me, I will kidnap you again, I will come and find you. Like did he ever threaten you with any of that to scare you into not giving his name?

It was 22 days worth of threats, you know? And the negotiation process to be freed and to be able to go home, That was a large portion of it. And during captivity he said oftentimes, like, I'm gonna be watching you, because there was already so much news coverage. And he'd been telling me about the news coverage, you know, he told me that everyone was looking for me,

which was great for me, because I got to use that as a negotiation tool with him. You know. Of being like, they're never gonna stop. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I as a negotiation tool with him. You know. Of being like, they're never gonna stop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I said that during captivity to him. And so, you know, I had insurmountable odds against me because I'm in an interrogation room

that I know this video is going to be leaked and it's gonna be put out there and he's going to be watching. He's going to be watching for me to keep him secret because that was part of my bargaining chip to get home. So that was quite difficult. You mentioned at the end of the docu-series that I guess like your one wish is that James be held accountable. Yeah. Well you listen to the FBI agent say you know she's the the girl who cried wolf.

And that's, yes, that is a tale as old as time, but the person who cries wolf still gets very hurt. And you know, you listen to him say, we need the footprint of the wolf. There's a literal footprint on my back. We need a picture of the wolf. Okay, you know who he is and you know where he is. We need a written of the wolf. Okay, you know who he is and you know where he is. We need a written signed confession. Okay, he has an obligation for himself,

self preservation to stick to his story. He also has the opportunity to really heal a lot of people. You know, if he were to come clean and tell the truth about what happened and his culpability in the crime, it would heal an entire community. It would heal my family, it would heal my children, it would heal my friends.

But it's highly unlikely that he's gonna do that. Don't you think telling law enforcement about his alleged accomplices and the possibility that they could find or question his mother or this other person might lead to him being held accountable? I had so many moments where I almost broke. I had so many moments of trying to steal away to tell them more things that would lead directly to him. I was just really too scared. You know, and you see that in the interrogation video. You see

I was just really too scared. And you see that in the interrogation video, you see a very desperate woman in a very difficult situation. I mean, I suppose even now though, wouldn't you want them to track his mother down and this other person too? Because like what you're accusing them is horrific, right? Obviously to kidnap someone and torture them and-

They all knew that I was there. And the people, the otherep, the, the other relatives that were living in the cul-de-sac, they all knew that I was there. And so it's, it's difficult because in my case, there's very obvious culpability of other people. You know, if you knew that I was there, this many years went by, you said nothing.

You had no involvement. And for James to say, Oh, I was just a friend helping a friend. Like if I came to you and oh, I was just a friend helping a friend. Like if I came to you and said, will you hurt me? Will you brand me? Will you starve me and beat me and drug me? You'd be like, honey, I need to make a phone call.

And then also at the end, like let's just send you home to children. Like that would be, if I asked you to do that, obviously it would be a deeply wounded person, a deeply terrible individual. And he admits that he has culpability in it, but he's not held accountable for it. So you listen to law enforcement say, you know, if she asked for it, then it's not a crime. And if she wanted to go with you, then it's not an abduction. So let's start again and let's, you know, go from here. Because we can erase where we said that you were lying because we know you're lying.

So they give him an opportunity to rehabilitate himself after already lying to law enforcement officers. So when you have two testimonies that are inaccurate for purposes of deceit, right? Mine's inaccurate for my deceit, his is inaccurate for his deceit. When you have left, you have the evidence that's on my body. And it's clear that there is multiple injuries, if not most of the injuries, that I couldn't do myself. I couldn't possibly do myself.

That means that somebody had to do them. That's not me. And I am telling you, there was no consent and I am telling you, I did not ask for that. So however you take that, it demonstrates culpability. How many people from your understanding knew that you were being held captive by James? Probably about four, maybe more. I don't know who else he spoke to, but a handful of people. Don't you wish they would be questioned or interrogated?

Um, you know, because I mean, I feel like that would be the best chance of, of James being held accountable. I mean, certainly you understand, like, I, I'm no expert in law enforcement or anything like that, but I would assume that accomplices would be quicker to crack under questioning and things like that. It can be easy to get caught up on something. Maybe his mom wanted to help his son and was confused by what James was doing or this other woman that you say was there. But like, doesn't that bother you that all these people, you know, witness your abduction and know this truth

and haven't been questioned that could lead to him being held accountable? Well, doesn't it bother you? I mean, if it's true, yeah, for sure. But I would definitely want them questioned. I guess like, why haven't you tried to get someone to question them? Well, I don't have a very good relationship

with law enforcement at this point. And it's something that I'm trying. I'm trying to do. Again, when you have a charge for moral turpitude, your testimony is not taken seriously. Your testimony is, I have a charge for moral turpitude, your testimony is not taken seriously. Your testimony is, you know, I have a charge for moral turpitude for lying. So as much as I'm trying to get it taken seriously, it's just not. And frankly, I didn't give law enforcement that opportunity. When we were in

the middle of the case, I didn't give them the opportunity to do that. Do you know their names? The two women who like James's mom and his aunt in law? So that there's an uncle and there was a cousin and the cousin has a wife. Sure. It's actually the FBI did interview her. We have the FBI interviewer with them acknowledging that they watched it on the news and didn't say anything. And yet everybody was granted kind of whatever agreement everybody made.

But they were certainly interviewed and we have their interview. And furthermore, for the documentary, we hired a private investigator, tried to do just that. But this clan would not rate on each other. Why didn't they include that in the docu-series? That's a decision that you have to ask each day. How long did you date James for back in 20... A year or so. Okay.

Not too long. And had he ever been physically abusive towards you? Yeah, there was a lot of quite disturbing things towards the end of our relationship. It's the reason why it ended very abruptly. In fact, I ended, he was staying late at work and I packed my car and I left. Can you recount if you're comfortable, any of the things that he did to you? You know, James is a really sick individual. He has a proclivity for violence and he's

one of, you know, it's really difficult for me to talk about. It's an attachment to really disturbing things, but it's really uncomfortable to talk about. He's pretty disturbed, sadly. When you watch in this docuseries especially, I've gone through so much scrutiny and so much. I've had psychiatric evaluations and lie detector tests and interrogations and all of these things. And they say he's passed a polygraph test, but did he take psychiatric evaluations? Do we know anything about his mental state? We know that prior to the abduction, he was very disturbed and he put a lot of very disturbing posts on Facebook. They don't show that, which I was really disappointed in. And I think getting

to understand his mental state would be really helpful. If you had finally broken free from that relationship, you'd moved on, you were in a new relationship, you had children. What prompted you to spark that relationship back up and start talking to him again, the person who had hurt you? Well, his brother had passed away and I was really attached to his brother. He was such a sweet boy. And so actually my mom and I had sent something

to his family and then we just continued talking. And for me, it was one of those like, he's out of town, so it's safe. And I was so deprived and I was so starving for some kind of a connection because I just was not getting that, that he had a very easy end. He preyed on something that was really vulnerable to me.

Weren't you worried that a man that you just described is kind of a monster and just kind of a very troubled person? Wasn't that concerning for you to in any way let this person back into your life despite your connection to his brother? Thank you for saying that because yes, the reason why I kept it platonic and the reason why I kept it phone and text is for that very reason.

And it's yet another clue if you could say that leads one to believe that I wouldn't have left with him and I wouldn't have agreed to go anywhere with him. And in fact, when he came to Reading, it was to try and end the relationship because he wanted more than what I wanted. But how did you establish using a burner phone with him? At what point in the beginning of this emotional affair with James did you guys start doing that? You know, my husband, my ex-husband, he was very controlling and that means turning over your phone at night and allowing him to check it at any moment. And there was a lot of restrictions going on in my house

and there was a lot of control going on in the house. And when they say, well, there was men's names saved under women's names. Like I was not allowed to have conversations with whoever he deemed inappropriate, whoever he deemed inappropriate. And so there was a lot of concealment to even have a standard or normal life. And so when there was a moment where I was caught by Keith talking to someone else in a

very platonic way, I had tried to end things with James. And so it was his idea to get these burner phones to keep concealing it because I was really scared. And so it was his idea to get these burner phones to keep concealing it because I was really scared. And he knew that I was really scared of Keith and the punishment and what would happen if I continued to engage. How'd you guys go about getting those? He sent me a phone.

How did he send them to you? To my mom at her work. Okay. And you just like, did your mommy have any idea about it? Or are you just like giving your mom? No, he just sent a package. Gotcha. Back to, you mentioned, you had your fears,

but why, and certainly we know what it's like for people to feel unseen, but why not literally anyone else, maybe someone at a coffee shop or, you know, anyone else other than maybe going back to James, even if it was just, you know, over phones. Well, I think it's, it's difficult to understand the degree of, um, co-work coercive control that was

happening in my relationship. You know, it's difficult to understand. With Keith. Oh gosh, with Keith. It's difficult to understand when you have a spouse who is eliminating everyone in your life and eliminating all of your friends and your social circle and even alienating you from your own family, you know. So it was, it wasn't necessarily about me reaching out to him.

It's he found the open door and he found that vulnerability and he completely forced his way in there. And unfortunately, in the past, I was quite meek and I was very agreeable and didn't have the type of confidence that I have now and was really easy to be taken advantage of. What name did you have James under in your phone

when you originally reached out about his brother? I don't remember. That's a good question though. brother? I don't remember. That's a good question though. Yeah, I don't remember. When you were in captive, were you, like did you have access to the outside world? Were you watching TV? No, no, James would discuss things here and there.

So if I participated in certain acts and I participated in the things that he wanted, he would grant me access to certain things. Like did you even know like what day of the week it was at any point? No, so imagine, right, you have probably a watch or an iPhone or whatever. Imagine being in this room without the lights

and no access to time. Pay attention today to how many times you watch the clock, how many times you check the clock, how many times you check the time, and how easy it is for you to get oriented just even by daylight. And then imagine that being completely stripped from you. Your mom talked about your relationship with Keith. And again, maybe things were context was changed, but it seemed like watching the docu-series that she like understood why you didn't want to be with Keith. watching the docu-series that she like understood why you didn't want to be with Keith. Like the more that was

revealed about that marriage. And that's why when she again allegedly said, you know, at least what we watched is that she didn't think it was a kidnapping, it felt like she was like, I understand why my daughter wanted to leave that marriage. As if she understood why you might have, as people are accusing you to fake this kidnapping, you know, and set this thing up with James. And it felt like your mom was like, you know what, I don't even care what the truth is when it comes to whether this is a hoax or not. I believe my daughter when it comes to her relationship with Keith and I understand why she wanted to get out so much. What are your feelings

about that? We hear so many stories of how scary it can be to stand up for yourself and leave a relationship like that. That like sometimes the only thing you can come up with is something as crazy as faking a kidnapping or things like that. But you're just saying that's not true. It's far more simple than that. You know, I was really struggling

in a very abusive relationship that led me to a very dangerous man. And that's just really as simple as it is. And being able to have this relationship that I have with my mom now, and finally coming out of everything. And then finally telling her the truth. It was like, huh, that makes so much sense, you know, because she'd watched everything and she'd watched my relationship and she'd watched my marriage and where it makes sense to have wanted to be engaged in an affair, the abandoning my children did not fit and

the hoaxing and kidnapping, it didn't fit. But when you explain it so simply, you know, and you say, this led me to a very dangerous man and I got involved in something that was, I got in over my head. You know, talking to James was one thing, but I was not expecting to be held captive and tortured for 22 days and then had no way out. Your sister on the Hulu doc mentioned about some, I think you told her there were like slits in your back, you had scars in your back or that Keith discovered some scars? That ringing a bell or no? I don't talk to my sister. I don't have a very good relationship with my sister.

What's your parents relationship with your sister? My sister is highly abusive to my parents. And so they are doing the best they can to manage what they can as her mom and dad. But she's, you know, just because we're your children, it doesn't give us the right to be abusive just because you're a child. It doesn't mean that you can harm your parents. Um, and she's very harmful and she's very toxic.

Is it a more physical or emotional or both? Emotional. I mean, she's just horrible to them and it's, it's really, it's very sad to see. When did the two of you drift apart or had you ever been close? No, Sheila and I were never close. We were close for a short period of time.

And when the abduction happened, and she started getting on the news with Keith and started getting highly involved with everything, that's when she suddenly became a part of my life. She was very involved with being on camera, just as Keith was. and then she started developing a really inappropriate relationship with Keith. And then they got really close,

and they still are really close. And they are still close. Yeah, they still have a, I would say, is a highly inappropriate relationship. Do you think there's anything going on, or do you think there's a romantic relationship starting? I do. I do. I think that there's a lot of inappropriate things that have happened between Keith and Sheila and a lot of things that I've seen and in fact I

really wish I had this really cool home video that I had that I was hoping would end up into the film where you see Keith and Sheila engaging physically in a way that, and then you hear my dad in the background go, Oh God. What, where do you stand with your fight to have custody of your children? Where do I stand? Yeah. Like what's what is that an ongoing process or are you still in court or how's that going? So we're at the first part of the trial and we had the first half of the trial

and then there was a continuance and then the Shasta County court flooded and it was closed for a while. So we have to push it even further. And now sadly my trial is pushed out until July. So it's a lot of just waiting and waiting and trying to have patients to get there. But I'm hopeful.

I'm incredibly hopeful. I mean, you saw my lawyer. I got a heck of a lawyer and we've listened to judge Barton, who's the judge that I have say, you know, we don't take children away for lying. It's not something that we do here. And so I'm hopeful. I, I think really. When was the last time or how often do you get to see your children?

Well, unfortunately right now, I get to see them once a month for an hour. And I'm supposed to have weekly phone calls, but as you saw in the last trial, Keith said he wasn't going to follow court orders, even if they were given. And so I'm supposed to have weekly calls, but I get them once a month.

Can he be reprimanded for that? Yeah, it's called contempt of court. We'll be doing that. One thing I was really fascinated by in this docu-series is your relationship with your sister-in-law, Keith's sister, and she very much has your back. I think one of the more profound things she said was regardless of what you think about Sherry Papini,

is that those kids are much safer with Sherry than they are with Keith. I mean, obviously you opened up about your relationship with Keith, but what are much safer with Sherry than they are with Keith. I mean, obviously you opened up about your relationship with Keith, but what are her experiences with Keith that caused her to have such a definitive opinion about her brother? Well, I can't speak for her,

but she's been a family observer for a number of years and I think it says a lot about someone who is deeply involved in therapy and therapy modalities and can see that he is not someone that she can be close to. I think that says a lot. Suzanne is a deeply caring person and she's always been open to mending a relationship and working in a relationship, he has not. And he's been incredibly unkind. And the fact that she is on the side of the children

in my court case, right? She's remained very neutral, but she's going to be coming in on my side if you were to be on her side. And because of that, she's been erased from her family. they've treated her so unkindly and same with me. I mean, in this family, if you don't comply, you're erased. And it's incredibly harmful. And so I think when we say the kids are safer with me, there's this relational piece in it that's happening with this alienation. And it's a type of family where if you don't follow orders

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it being on Thanksgiving. And it was at the time, it seemed like kind of a beautiful story. It's, oh my God, she was found on Thanksgiving. When you were trying to get James to release you, did you, like knowing it was Thanksgiving, were you trying to be home for the holidays, so to speak, to spend time with your children? No, I had no idea it was Thanksgiving. I have no idea how that even happened with James. I would presume it was probably because he had enough time

off of work to drive all the way to Northern California. That's just an assumption of mine, but I wasn't a part of that process, and I didn't even know it was Thanksgiving until I was in the back of the ambulance, and the EMT said, by the way, happy Thanksgiving. I had no idea. How did your relationship with Keith change once you returned to the family and freed yourself from James? It was non-stop interrogation. It was

non-stop trying to catch me in something and nonstop trying to pressure me and use me in any way that he possibly could to get accommodations and things like that. Did you tell anyone or reach out to anyone? Because it seemed like from what we saw, and again, we saw limited stuff that is almost if you had your family back and seemed like you were trying to heal and mend things with your family. As much as things were, I tried deeply to conceal them, you could see them quite clearly,

which is demonstrated by my parents saying, she was alienated from us and it's been incredible to have her back. And it's also demonstrated in saying that Keith Papini's sister took me in. What was a prison like? It's a good question. You know, I, I, we didn't really have the opportunity

to go into that in the film either. There's a lot of really fun stories in the book, but it was extremely, it was exceptionally challenging. You know, I, I was, when I was tackled in front of my children, which was really unnecessary and taken, I was held at the Sacramento County jail. So I spent time in both jail and in a women's federal prison.

But still, it was the safest I felt in 16 years. You know, I've been imprisoned by James, imprisoned by Keith, and imprisoned by the federal government, and that was the safest that I felt. Did you make any friends? So many friends. You keep in touch with them?

Within the parameters of what's acceptable with my probation, yeah. The prison that they showed on the docuseries, was that the actual prison that you were incarcerated at? Okay, because the one that they showed seemed like a pretty serious facility. I've been to one like that. Okay.

Like what other crimes did the inmates that you were incarcerated with commit? Like some pretty serious criminals? There's a lot of variances there. You know, there's a lot of different inmates to different degrees. When you're sentenced and you're sent to a federal prison, they give you a point system, depending on the offense, right? So we have minimum, maximum, and medium security, and then we have the women's camp. So it's kind of a level of degree. Also, if you served for an

extended period of time, you can transfer from more of a medium security prison to say a federal prison camp. You know, there was a time where I was in prison and documentaries continued to come out, films continued to come out while I was in prison and all of the women were watching them and there was this time where there was a show that was on where they said, well, she's just in a federal prison camp, it's not a big deal. The reaction from the women in the camp, that was one of the first times that they actually had a little bit more empathy for me. Because they were saying, oh, it's not a big deal,

she's just at a federal prison camp and it's a big deal. It's an absolutely a big deal. And just because it's a camp doesn't make it any less excruciating to be away from your friends, away from your family and away from your children. And it was really, it was very grueling. We heard from one of your friends, remind me her name.

Yeah, Mo. Mo. And she kind of mentioned how when you first entered, the story kind of came out, she herself is Hispanic. And she was saying that, you know, kind of a lot of the Hispanic women in the prison were like, you know, kind of raising their eyebrows at you. Do you realize the impact that saying the two Hispanic women putting that out there had on the Hispanic community?

Well, I think that that there's a lot of blame put on that as well, and that's something that's been existing for a long time. And it was not my intention whatsoever. I was deeply affected by that, and I have a lot of sorrow for that. But it was absolutely not my intention. My intention was to get them to find James Reyes, who is Hispanic. It was just a breadcrumb. It was not meant to be made into this big race issue. It was just a breadcrumb to lead investigators to James Reyes. Like Mo was saying, the women were like, wait a minute, they're saying you're racist, but you were dating this guy. So it doesn't, there's a lot of things that don't align that are salacious, you know, that are overly salacious.

And I do feel deep empathy and sorrow for anyone that was harmed or interrogated or investigated during this. That was not my intention whatsoever. But I also can't take responsibility for how law enforcement handled themselves. I can't take responsibility for the pressure in which they use to interrogate other people.

I take full responsibility for what I did, sure. But that race issue was there way before me, way before me. Given you mentioned this, how long race has been an issue in this country and things like that, Why didn't it cross your mind how damaging that accusation could be given just how popular and just how worldwide your story was? Like why didn't you think of that given the historical ramifications of race in this country? Well, I would hope that if a crime was committed to someone and you are of a different race,

that you would focus on the crime rather than the race of it. If I'm saying that James Reyes is Hispanic because I'm white, why is it considered a race issue? Yeah, but it wasn't. I guess James, you were accusing two women. Well, I understand you mentioned that these women were based off of people you had met. Right. Couldn't you have given a different description, you know, other than like that? I wish that that was an option.

Because we ended up finding out his mom's not even Hispanic. Well, that wasn't the point. The point wasn't to lead them to his mother. The point was to lead them to James. Gotcha. So it's not, it wasn't because there was a race related point. It was to get them to go to James. What other kind of clues or breadcrumbs did you offer the law enforcement or anyone else to try to lead them to James

after your release? I described everything with absolute accuracy. So the only thing that was lied about was the identity of James. Everything was described with accuracy, every injury, every description of the room, everything that I could give them to lead them to where I was without saying where I was

was accurate and true. Did you ever like mention like, cause you knew where he lived, right? I generally knew where he lived. I'd never been there before. Okay. Why didn't you give him like the area or like the neighborhood or you know,

anything like that? I mean, I didn't know the neighborhood that I was in. It wasn't until way later that I even knew that I was in Costa Mesa. Gotcha. The internet seems to be hung up on the phone, the headphones, how it landed, what that whole thing is. What happened when you saw his car pull up

and then back up with the phone and your headphones? And during the process of filming, that was such an excruciating process and being in that position it's difficult to realize and understand that you're on camera, be directed by a crowd of people and then also reliving everything not just reliving everything but it's now eight years later and you're having to relive everything so it's now eight years later. And you're having to relive everything. So it's difficult to be accurate about that. Do you remember being like, I'm gonna, because your hair was in the headphones,

do you remember being like, let me do this so that Keith can find me and know that something was wrong? Do you remember it, you just dropping it out of your hand, out of pure like, oh my God, who is that? And you dropped your phone. Like, do you remember any of those scenarios happening? It's, yeah, it's, it happened in such as, you know, you're asking me to describe a two second incident.

No, I know. Eight years ago. I know, I'm sorry. In distress as well. No, it's okay. But you know, it's from what I remember, from what I can remember. And it's unfortunate because what I gave law enforcement was the lie, you know, it was part of the lie. So now it's like, I have to go back

and attempt to clean up what I had said. And it's gotta be heartbreaking for my husband too, to not know which part was accurate and which part wasn't. But you know, it's those gummy headphones. My hair is all over the place and it's really easy to get your hair caught in them. So whether I pulled it out on purpose or whether it was already just kind of in there, I really don't know.

But dropping the phone, the phone dropped and then it was pulling it out because it's a long string. And then however it laid on the ground, there was no coiling or intention in that. No. You don't know how it got wrapped around it? it out because it's a long string and then however it laid on the ground there was no coiling or intention in that. You didn't wrap it or anything? No. You don't know how it got wrapped around it?

No, and I don't think it did. I think the photograph that they show it's not wrapped, it's just kind of piled on top of it. What did you mean that it must have been hard for Keith? Well, given now that the facts of the case are out and he himself has more access to the evidence, I could see where that would be extremely heartbreaking. Why do you care? Why do I care? Because I'm a loving, caring person.

But he also is obviously so emotionally abusive to you. I guess why were you worried about his concern? But just because he is doesn't mean I have to be. I'm not seeking revenge. I'm not trying to hurt him. He did try to put out in the media that you were abusive to your children. Do you think that was part of his tactic to kind of pile on? Why do you think he would sacrifice his kids like that?

Well, I think something like 56% of marriages fail in America. And so that means that there is a lot of people in the family court system right now. And there's a lot of people that have to go through separation and divorces. And I think, unfortunately, I've come to understand that when you get a divorce

and false allegations are made, it's quite common. And that is heartbreaking, but very, very true. And I think a lot of people that have watched the documentary can really relate to what it's like to separate from a toxic ex and what retaliation looks like, as you can clearly see happening to me. and what retaliation looks like, as you can clearly see happening to me. What retaliation looks like, what false allegations look like, it's really quite common. And it's unfortunate for him because, first of all, it doesn't add up. Like, it's not even a good lie for him to have committed. And it's proved, as you can see through evidence, concluded to be unfounded and it's closed. So it's heartbreaking to watch him use, I mean, that's where you see me get really passionate about it. Whenever I talk about my children, I get extremely emotional and I get very passionate. And you see that in the

documentary when I say, you know, this is something you have to live with forever now. and he's used my daughter in as a pawn to to make these false allegations. It's incredibly heartbreaking and I mean in my opinion it's borderline child abuse to use her in the way that he has and exploit her in the way that he has. Did your children make any hospital visits or anything like that from any injuries that they sustained from just an accident or anything? He claims something about you wrapping alcohol bottles around their neck. Oh, it's so absurd. Yeah, he... What he claimed doesn't make sense. And generally when things don't make sense, that means that something is missing there. There's something that's inaccurate and untrue there.

So is that just like, it's just wildly made up, there's no like, when did he claim that happened? Okay, so after, just before I'd signed the plea agreement, he was having difficulty with me signing the plea agreement. There's a lot of ego involved in this case. And so he had gone to my attorney and after my attorney had spoken to him, he came to Suzanne's house where

I was staying to get me to sign a contract and that is yet another regret. I wish that there was more of that recording with Keith in that documentary because it would really demonstrate quite a lot of what I was going through at the time. But he wanted me to get a sign to sign a contract and if I signed this agreement, I could go home and I could be with my kids and I could live with him and the children and it would be fine, but he would need to have complete control. And I was living with Suzanne for months now, and I was able to be with Suzanne and able to have safety. And I was already planning to divorce him anyway. And at this point, I didn't want to sign the contract.

I didn't want to go back to him. And he threatened me. And he said, if you don't sign this contract, I'm going to bring the world down on your head. I'm going to take your children. And it's not going to be very hard because have you read a paper lately? Then he filed for divorce when I decided not to come home and false allegations followed that. And that is what's common. And that's what you see in family court quite often is you have, you know, the people that you see in family court, it demonstrates that there's toxicity in the relationship. If there wasn't, they would just amicably split. They wouldn't end up in court.

And it's very sad to see that it's common. And that's a common thing that people experience in family court. And that's what sad to see that it's common and that's a common thing that people experience in family court. And that's what happened to me. I decided not to go home. I decided not to sign the contract. And then right after that, all CPS claims were made. This documentary was created.

It's a very clear line from A to Z of retaliation and coercive control. Just given everything you say he did, I mean, one could make an argument that this all starts with Keith. Like regardless of what caused James to abduct you, the emotional relationship that started with James started because of his alleged emotional abuse. And you mentioned when we first started talking this life sentence of so many people

doubting you, the damage it's caused, not being able to be with your children, having your community kind of, you know, cast you away. How can you not have more anger towards your husband? I think that's what was so exciting about me coming on your guys' show because you're so fascinated in these relational pieces, right? And so being able to have this opportunity to get asked questions like that, like you lose that sometimes and there's such a big relational piece to my case. And so, you know, thank you for giving me that opportunity. I'm really grateful for it and grateful to be with people that are engaged in that relational piece.

So do you really don't have anger towards him? Oh, no. You know, I've reached the point of indifference at this point. You know, I went through a mourning period, you know, of a marriage that ended and so deeply sad for my children. That's first and foremost for my children. I'm deeply sad. And you have to get to a point where you hate each other less than the love that you love your children more than you hate each other. And I love my children far more than I dislike Keith Bappini. And we have to parent these children. So yes, as much as revenge and vengeance feels nice,

and yes, it's very healing and cathartic, like there's two kids involved here. And when you can demonstrate your capacity for mature growth, and I have worked extremely hard to become self-aware and have this self-discovery process. It's clear the other side is not, but I think that's the best revenge for me is I've grown and I've changed and I've moved on and I'm not fixated on it because it's so much energy to put into revenge and hating someone, you know?

And taking a stand can look very different for everyone. And for me, moving on and healing and getting better and understanding what I like and what I certainly don't like anymore, that's pretty powerful. I'm sure also getting your children back will be like the biggest stance. Of course, of course.

Did you ever at any moment? I don't think he's thought about that. I don't think he's thought about that. I don't think he's thought about like the destruction that he's causing because he's still gonna have to sit next to me in basketball games and we're still gonna have to parent these children. And I think that's why he's trying so hard to erase me because he can't tolerate that. And there's so many of us saying you have to, you have to. And there's so many of us saying, you have to, you have to, and there's a stubbornness there.

Did you ever at any point ask James to help you get out of your marriage, save you from your marriage at any point, had you said that maybe you meant something he thought it meant something else? I mean, there was a lot of complaining. Yeah. Sure. meant something, he thought it meant something else. I mean, there was a lot of complaining. Yeah, sure. And like I said, there was really apparent vulnerabilities that he very easily preyed

on. So generally, when you're a woman and you're complaining about something to a man, they have these complexes that develop. It was just an in for him. You know, I was deeply affected by how difficult my marriage was. Which lie that you told do you regret the most? Probably the length that the Hispanic women got carried away. You know, again, it wasn't my intention to make it about race. It was my intention to lead

them to James. Yeah, I would say that one probably. I regret all of them. They're all, you know, it's all so hard to continue to be faced with. But are we our biggest mistakes? You know, trying to live through that and trying to rebuild my life and trying to create some kind of legacy for my children. That's not this mistake. You know, how do you come back from that? Do you think you're a good liar? No, I'm actually a terrible liar. I mean, you've seen the interrogation video. Do you think I'm a good liar? In that moment, I believed your lie, I guess. There are times I believed your lie. Well, and that's the part that's this relational piece is there was real danger. And that's what made it believable.

It made it believable because there was real danger and there was a real crime that was committed. And that's what I relied on. I relied on when I was telling my story to continue saying these pieces about what had happened to me in captivity. And that's where you see me suffer from PTSD in the film and you see me suffering from these real experiences.

And that's what I continue to rely on. Can we talk about your injuries that you sustained while being held captive? That's a broad question. We'll see, let's move forward and see where you go. The bruises on your face, on your eye, that he had hit you with his fist, right? Is that right? Okay.

We know the branding, obviously he had gotten the wood burning tool you had talked to him about on doing your crafts. The burn marks on your arms, how did that happen? Well, he had discussed he has this weird fixation on people that curate scarring to keloid and kind of look similar to a tattoo. Does that make sense? And so that was like a practice run. And so that was like a practice run for it. To see if your arm would keloid. Mm-hmm, yeah. And you know, it's difficult because you have a director

who has access to all of these photographs. And again, like I said, it wasn't a part of the edits or anything like that. So the accuracy in which they depict an injury that I'm speaking about might not actually be the injury that's in the photograph. And like the photograph that they show in the film in connection to what I'm saying

actually wasn't even the right injury. So, I mean, I was hit so many times and there was so many bruises and so many things that happened. You know, people it seems are fixated on quite a lot of details in the case, which I actually love because it means that they want to solve it. And it's left feeling unsolved because there really is missing justice in this case. And so it's like when we get these people that meticulously comb over this, it's kind of heartwarming, you know,

because you're left at the end of this docu-series and going, oh my God, there's real culpability in this case. Why hasn't any of this happened? What happened with the hockey stick? Which part? There was multiple things that happened with hockey stick. I guess. Utilize.

Yeah. So there's an injury that occurred to my nose, that you see. Okay. And James states that I ran into a hockey stick. So if you're standing in this room, right, from here to here, if I stood right there and I held out a hockey stick and I said, Nick, run into this hockey stick.

One, do you think you could accurately do it if you're trying to injure yourself here? And two, what sort of inertia would you be able to create given that you have a stride to fling yourself from one end to the room to the other to cause that type of injury to your own face? So did he hit you with? Absolutely.

But to listen to him in these interrogations say that I did it to myself, it's not only beyond shocking and disturbing, but when I just tell it to you just like now, it's very easy to see like, come on, that's ridiculous. What do you make of the Pinterest board law enforcement said that you had made that had like a collage of all of the, I guess, products and equipment that was used in your torture, whether it was self-inflicted

that the law enforcement claims you did or whether it was from Keith, but apparently this was your Pinterest board. Well, I mean, do you have a Pinterest? I don't, but my wife does. How many pins do you think you have? I'm sure a lot. So what would it feel like then if law enforcement tore apart your Pinterest and chose to just grab specific pins

that led to some kind of bias to create something about you. I would learn that I liked terracotta tiles and Brad Pitt with his head shaved. Okay, I mean I did wood crafting before. I mean it did exist and my crafting skills and things like that. I mean I had thousands and thousands of pins in there.

Should we get into the blog post? Blog post. The blog post that was under your name, that had the story, that had racial elements. Oh my gosh, there's so many things I didn't even remember that have happened. It's like they take your entire life and try to pull your entire life out.

That's something from so long ago. And it actually, it was like a mean girl thing that happened to me. You know, it's not something that I wrote or participated in. And my ex-husband, my first husband, he gave a statement and said, no, this was totally a mean girl thing

that was done to her. You know, he was there when it happened. Some of my other friends that I knew back then all knew that it happened as well. So yeah, it was in relation to an old relationship that I had and an involvement with somebody's ex boyfriend that I had and kind of a retaliatory mean girl situation. We've learned obviously with guests that we've had

and just trying to understand trauma that people experience but you learn that, and I think they talked about it on this docu-series, I think the psychotherapist talked about victims reasons for lying. It's a survival mechanism at times. Did you use lying as a young adult or in childhood to cope with the trauma that you experienced as a child? Well, I definitely made my life seem something that it wasn't.

So I was very bubbly and vivacious and my therapist has been explaining to me something called being inauthentically cheery. So I would definitely utilize that when I was a kid. So when I was younger, I was trying to manage a lot of things that I didn't understand. I was trying to manage a lot of things that unfortunately I was immature and didn't have the capacity to have that self-realization that I do now. I would say the majority of my concealment was when I became Keith's wife because it was like building this entire fake life. And so people that knew me back then, they say that I was very fake. You know, that's why the documentary was called The Perfect

Wife. You know, I built this whole piece on building a life that wasn't real to suit someone else's ego. So you feel like you started lying once you were married to Keith to kind of appear to your community, your friends, that y'all were just what they all would strive to be, dream to be. Absolutely, we were the perfect all American couple that had no problems. Cause I was Keith Papini's wife

and his image was incredibly important and very valuable to him. Why do you think law enforcement has an agenda against you? I mean, there's a lot of ego in here, you know, and I think one of the worst things you can do to someone that you care about is make them worry and for them to think that that worry was in vain.

And so I think my community really came together for me and they really fought for me. And for them, it's difficult because they think that it's all a lie and that I wasn't in real danger. And that's heartbreaking. And it's gonna take a while for them to see that I really was and that I'm deeply sorry that I wasn't able to be more truthful and in terms of law enforcement

you know there's a lot of ego and and there's a lot of doubling down that's happening because They don't want to be wrong You know they they don't want to to demonstrate where their missteps were in the case and what they are themselves accountable for. And to be clear, I also didn't really give them any options. So I'm not here to be against law enforcement. You know, I have my own accountability in what I did there.

I didn't give them much of a choice. You mentioned in the beginning of the docuseries, all the theories about who you are, and you mentioned some of the accusations that have been levied against you. I think one you mentioned like human trafficker or things like that. Where do these come from? Well, I mean, you have a lot of access to speaking to people. I mean, there's rumors start really quickly in this industry and they get very carried away. Have you ever, again, then they mentioned, you know, what's the saying? Hurt people,

hurt people. You know, sometimes people who are victims of childhood trauma end up being people who hurt other people in the future. In your lifetime at all, have you had a regrettable moment where you feel like you've hurt someone as a cause of the pain that you experienced as a child? I think I try really hard to stay as deeply rooted in this self-discovery process. I regularly go to therapy and I've worked really, really hard on myself and I've worked really hard to have self-awareness. And, you know, we're all pretty flawed people. And my deceit was really unfortunate. And I know that it caused a lot of hurt, sure.

What are you doing with your free time these days? I wrote a book and it was a beautiful, excruciating, crazy, I wrote a book and it was a beautiful, excruciating, crazy, amazing, cathartic, wonderful experience. And I'm really proud of it. And I'm starting to work with this exceptional life coach who's considered a profound recovery expert. And what I'm trying really extremely hard to do is build a legacy for my children that is not this traumatic experience. And this book is something I'm really proud of. And I put a lot of energy and thought and careful consideration into

it and looking how to move forward in my life and how to help as many people as possible, you know, in my community and family law, in the judicial process. There's so many places that desperately need our help that I wanna get involved with. Do you think Keith's a good father? I think Keith has quite a lot of challenges that he would be an even better father if he examined them deeper.

So he's good, but could be better or not a good father? He has moments of being a good father, of course. Just given the emotional abuse, you say he caused you. Doesn't it scare you that he has the custody he has with your children? Absolutely. It's why I'm fighting so hard and I'm never going to give up. I mean, they should build me a cot in the back of that courtroom. Doesn't it make you upset or angry that he's out there and that he could be, I don't know what his dating situation is these days, but do you think it's safe for other women to date him? No.

Doesn't that upset you? It's not my problem anymore. I am focused on getting my kids back and I'm focused on what it's going to be like in the next phases of undoing the alienation that's been caused and surrounding my children with this much love and support and safety. And as much as he is deeply invested in his ego and deeply invested in his image. What ends up happening is you see that image that he's so wrapped up in, and we're seeing a lot of his behavior speak for itself. What do you hope people will gain

from either watching the docuseries or buying your book and reading it? What are you kind of hoping? Is it you want to change everyone's opinion, or is there a message that you're hoping people will get from kind of hoping? Is it you want to change everyone's opinion or is there a message that you're hoping people will get from all of this? Well first that I'm incredibly sorry for keeping the secret. Incredibly sorry that I wasn't brave enough to tell the truth because I was afraid and

that something really bad happened to me and that it was not of my plan. I did not plan a hoax kidnapping and something incredibly dangerous happened and that I don't deserve what's happening to me with my children. I miss them so much. Are you dating? Oh gosh, right now I am so busy with everything that's happening. My primary focus is Tyler and Violet. My primary focus is just getting my kids back. Do you hope to marry again once you accomplish that? Oh, goodness. I hope so. I'm open to it for sure. I think, yeah.

When is the book out? The book is out now. So you can go to SherryPapiniBook.com and you can go to Amazon as well. There are quite a few other books that are written about me. This is written by me. You know, this is not somebody creating an exploitative piece. This is me.

And the book is called Sherry Papini Doesn't Exist. And the title is quite evocative. And it's been an exceptional process to go through writing this book and working on book two even. What can we expect to read about in the book? Everything that you asked me, all the missing bits and pieces, really fun prison stories, and a lot of backstory and childhood and those pieces that weren't in the film that had you going, oh, I wish I had more, I wish I had more.

Okay, well, thank you. Yeah, ultimately, I think we just want to give people the opportunity to share their story. And, you know, we're grateful for our audience for, you know, kind of let them just, you know, I'm sure like you, you got to let people decide what they think. And I'm sure that's why you did the docu-series. And, you know, it's an interesting opportunity

to have almost people feel like they're sitting in a room with people having a conversation and then you know get to decide for themselves how they what they think of that conversation it's a it's a blessing that we have to do this show and so thank you for sharing your story and and talking about your experiences and it's been a very interesting ride. Yeah. Thank you, Sherry. Thank you.