The Viall Files - E973 Ask Nick - My Therapist Is Bestie’s Toxic Ex

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

Our first caller’s best friend is a deadbeat dad. Our second caller is debating telling her friend that her soon-to-be ex husband was her therapist. And, our third caller wants to know how to move on from her ex who held her keys hostage and hid a social media scandal from her?  “You HAVE to tell her!" Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff every Monday. Available wherever you get your podcasts and YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774286896 https://open.spotify.com/show/4NWA8LBk15l2u5tNQqDcOO?si=c03a23d537f94735 Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  We’ve partnered with Mint Mobile to open a hot takes hotline to hear your scorching hot opinions! Give us your hot takes, thoughts and theories and we’ll read and react to the best ones on an upcoming Reality Recap episode! All you have to do is call 1-855-MINT-TLK or, if you prefer the numbers, that’s 855-646-8855 and leave us a message. To Order Nick’s Book Go To: https://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice, send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line!  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Mint Mobile - Get 3-months of Unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month at https://mintmobile.com/viall  Hero Bread - Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to https://hero.co and use code VIALL at checkout. Happy Thursday - If you’re feeling thirsty, Have a Happy Thursday! Weekend vibes all summer long. To find out more and find a Happy Thursday near you visit https://drinkhappythursday.com/viall  Bombas - Head over to https://bombas.com/viall and use code viall for 20% off your first purchase. Cymbiotika - Go to https://cymbiotika.com/viall to get 20% off plus free shipping. Monarch Money - Get control of your overall finances with Monarch Money. Use code VIALL at https://monarchmoney.com in your browser for 50% off your first year. Timestamps: (00:00) - Intro (01:05) - Caller One (38:17) - Caller Two (01:17:19) - Caller Three Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @justinkaphillips @dereklanerussell  

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to $15 a month. Unlimited time, new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plans, taxes, and fees extra. See MintMobile for details. How's it going? Hey Nick, my name's Sadie, I'm 35 and my husband and I's best friend is a deadbeat dad and we're not sure where to go from here.

Is he, I mean not that it really matters. Are you friends with him through like your husband? Is it like a mutual college friend that you're both friends with? Yes, I met him through my husband. Him and I have since become very close. We, you know, over the years through all of his relationship experiences, I'm kind of his go-to for advice.

Like he just called me this morning. We talked for an hour about his current relationship. But he, if you like, I can go ahead and give you some background on the, the context of why he is a dad is really important. So I can definitely jump into that. So essentially our friend was in a very toxic relationship and he finally broke up with her. It dragged on for an unnecessary amount

of time. Then she ended up showing back up at his house a couple days later. They ended up sleeping together and she got pregnant. Come to find out she actually had planned it, as much as you can plan that, as like a last-ditch effort to save their relationship. Obviously that didn't go over well with him and he became very, very highly triggered by her to the point where he can't have any civil interactions with her and is completely uninvolved in the child's life as of now. My husband and I are parents, we have little kids ourselves

so we've been trying really hard to steer him towards being involved and to make progress in that regard because we know how important it is and she's not a particularly stable person and he historically has been so we knew how important it was for the child to have that stability in their life and not many of our other friends have kids and his family's not pushing him to be involved at all. So we just really aren't sure where to go from here. We seem to be one of his only friends expressing how important it is to be involved. And we, many of our friends have just kind of proceeded with him as of, as if like nothing has changed. The child doesn't exist and we're

the only ones like pushing him towards it. So it's kind of a balance of, do we continue the relationship as is and just try to make small, small steps with him? Or do we, you know, cut off the relationship? We just aren't sure how to proceed because we seem to be the only ones that are pushing him in that direction. And, you know, the only ones that are giving him guidance to become involved with the child. It's a tough situation that you just described. While you're there, you know, while you were saying it, I'm trying to imagine like what I would do if I were in your situation or how I would feel about a friend who is in your friend's situation. And like you, as a relatively new parent and new dad, I am more judgmental and critical of other parents. I think online everyone is, but not in the way that like, listen, I think just being

there matters the most, which obviously I'm sure you understand in terms of like every, I think every parent has the right to parent their child how they want, obviously within reason of their kids being safe and yada, yada, yada. But this is definitely not the same as, you know, you were like, our friend's a deadbeat dad and he got divorced, he left his wife or his wife left him. And now he's just decided to go to a dad and he got divorced, he left his wife or his wife left him and now he's just decided to pretend he's not a dad anymore.

It's definitely different than that. And he does express a lot of interest in wanting to be a dad. He wants to have children, he loves our kids. He's highly involved in their lives. He's around a lot. He is consistently asking questions about like our baby, how to raise a baby. And he does want that. How old is this kid? It's just her own, less than a year old. He's like eight or nine months at this point. And he's never met him. Never been it. There's been no involvement up until this point. Mostly and up until she actually had the child, he's expressed a lot of interest

around wanting to be involved and even discuss having like sole custody himself because she is a very mentally unstable person. And that is like, could be what's best for the child long-term, but in where we live, it's very hard for him to get that unless he has a mountain of evidence. And even, you know, on the other side of that, up until this point, he doesn't really have many rights until the child reaches a certain age.

And then on top of that, the mother is making it very difficult. So he does have a lot of barriers, but at the end of the day, my husband and I see it as it doesn't matter how many barriers there are, like you could put them out in front of you. This is your child. Like you have to prioritize that. That's, you know, that's what's going to be important. And no matter how many, you know,

things she puts in front of you, how difficult she makes it, like you have to make that the focus. And he seems to be deterred by any small thing that she does or piece of bad news he gets from a lawyer. What was the last, you said you talked to him this morning for over an hour? What did you guys talk about? So that's actually about his, so he has a new girlfriend and that was a situation with his current girlfriend and he has since started a new relationship. We're very supportive

of that relationship. I still think he has a lot of work to do personally, but the relationship he's in now seems to be very healthy. And she is, she is supportive of him being involved in the situation. Um, so that is helpful, but they haven't made much progress, not much. They have made zero progress other than having the conversation of like, I am supportive. How old is he? He's my age, around 35. Okay.

Why did you guys talk about for an hour and a half if everything in this current relationship is solid? She's a little bit younger than him and it's just around her wanting, at the end of the day, he's pretty insecure and she is like a decade younger than him. So she's just in a little bit of a different phase of life socially and is like wanting

to go out a lot. And he is not in that phase of life. He wants to just stay in and it's just causing a bit of a rift for them. And he's just like not understanding why that's such a big of a priority for her because they're in it's just coming to their age gap is kind of coming to a head and they're at a crossroads really like, she says she wants to settle down and she says he's a priority, but is it,

I think it's her actions are at the point where it's in, are they in line with what she's saying? Like, is she actually ready to settle down or is she just thinks she wants to settle down? Well, I mean, a lot of 25-year-olds want to settle down someday. Exactly. That last part, they don't often say the someday, especially if they're dating someone older. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Or just don't communicate that. But for a 25-year-old, yeah, they'd be like, yeah, I want to settle down. 27, 28, you know, it's like that sounds cool. That gives me a little bit of time even though time goes fast. And it's like, well, what is, you know, someone who has a younger wife, yeah, where they are matters in their life. And if he feels like they want different things

in different stages of their life, it doesn't matter if they both wanna eventually settle down and have kids. At the same time, you know, if he doesn't wanna go out all the time and she does, that's just a huge compatibility problem. Yes, yes, we've had we had that conversation. Anyway not why you called. What's his financial situation? Just out of curiosity. He's extremely stable he does very very well he owns his home makes great money

is very capable and the mom of the child is not in that current situation. I'm assuming he's spoken with lawyers to understand his situation and rights and things like that. Yes, he has. He did. So he was of the mentality that he was going to be involved as much as he possibly could before the child was born. And then he had a conversation with a lawyer that was pretty disheartening to him. And essentially he can't have much custody or any custody until the child reaches a certain age they favors the mother at until they're one or two years old. So he essentially is was of the mindset of, well, I can't do anything until the child reaches this age and I'm at her mercy. Like at the most he could have

scheduled visitation and he is like so beyond triggered by her that he has kind of just let that go because he can't see past. He's not a parent. So he doesn't, you know, I have the experience now, like, well, you just have to get past that because the relationship with the child is so amazing that, you know, any roadblock that's put in your way, you know, you just need to get over. But he obviously hasn't had that experience. He doesn't see that like end goal. And he's very blocked by his relationship with her and how unhealthy it is and how triggered

they are by each other. So he just hasn't had any involvement up until this point because he can't get past that. And she continues to put barriers in the way. And at the beginning, I think she used it as a last-ditch effort to save their relationship. But now that she is a mom, I mean, I'm speaking for her and what I interpret based on their limited interactions is that now she sees it as she doesn't want him involved at all because now she just wants the child to herself because he's like a stranger to her at this point.

So she's making it very difficult for him to have involvement, but at the same time, he's not really trying. So you're saying that based on the state that you're in or wherever you're located, that the parenting laws are such that because they're not married and they have a kid together, he has to go to court to get her to agree to scheduled visits? Because I don't know what... Yes. Yes. Yes, they have to, at the most, I think he can have a handful of hours, like maybe 10 hours a week of visitation with the child. I'm not sure if she needs to be there or not,

but regardless, he can't have the child come stay at his house. It's very limited in what he can do. But I would imagine, I mean, I'm not a lawyer and I've never had any experience with this kind of situation. But I would imagine in order for them to be any kind of custody when it comes to the point where he's able to have custody, there has to be some kind of experience with the child prior, but he has not had any.

Yeah. So. All right. Well, it's a tough, tough situation. I already said that. I feel like the, I don't think this is a situation where you cut off your friend. You kind of floated that out there, you know? No, I don't think cut off. I don't think cut off our friend. And like we love him so much.

That's not what we want. It's more, we don't want to make it seem like we're okay with how things are going and be like complacent and him not being involved in the child's life, having kids and you know, we just had a baby ourselves when this happened that the kids are only a couple months apart. So it's very fresh and emotional for us as well. But we just aren't sure how to proceed because we seem to be the only ones really pushing him in that direction. He's not getting that from his family. Our other friends don't have children, so they can't really understand either. And one, I am the person that he goes to

for a lot of advice, and he has kind of pulled back because I think he knows where I stand and it's not in line with what he's currently doing. So he brings up his current relationship a lot, but not the child a lot. So we just don't, aren't sure how to go from here, how to encourage him to get involved, how patient we should be with it,

or how pushy we should be with it, considering we're the only ones that really feel this way. Our friends actually do, but they're not vocal about it. What have you said to him? So it's been kind of confusing because up until this, up until the child was born, up until he had that conversation with the initial lawyer, he was pretty, you know, sure that he was going to be involved. And then he had that conversation, he was really deterred and he kind of, it was kind of like he lost steam. So then our conversations

went more like, and then when the child actually got here, he, and it became more real, it's like he pulled back and you know, I would consistently ask him about like, hey, because he was making like pretty small steps until earlier this year, and then it kind of came to a halt. And now he's at a point where he has to make a decision. He has to establish paternity, and he hasn't done that yet, and she won't do it voluntarily. So he has to sue her for paternity, and he hasn't done that yet, and we've been lingering in that step for a long time. So a few months ago, we had a pretty good heart to heart with him,

we're like, Hey, like, you can't be a deadbeat dad, like, it's not about at the end of the day, it's not about your you and her relationship, like you made a decision, she made a decision, and this child is paying the price for it, like you need to be focusing on that child. And he completely agrees. But he again again is so triggered by her. And we've had conversations around therapy and he is in therapy and has been for a really long time. But to me, his therapist is not super effective at this point anymore. And they, they aren't doing the hard work.

Like they're not having the conversations that they should be having. And I'm like, you should be coming out of therapy, like feeling like you've accomplished something, like, oh, that was really hard. We really dug deep there. And he never, it's more of just like someone validating his feelings. So I've encouraged him to get another therapist

because he has so much to work through and they're not working through it. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of not, you know, great therapists out there. If he were my friend, right, I would do some version of what you're already doing. But it's more about trying to paint a picture about the long game, right? You know, right now you, you've said multiple times, he's triggered by her.

He's triggered by her. I have no doubt. And I can completely empathize with why, but there is a part which I'm sure you, you've kind of alluded to, you know, he's an adult man who made an adult choice, you know, and she came over, they had unprotected sex. You can't be like, oh, she's crazy, she's crazy, she's crazy, she's crazy, she's crazy. Oh, she's a psycho, she's a psycho.

And then he invites her over or she shows up or whatever. They have unprotected sex. She broke in, yeah, she broke in, but he still made that decision. But I'm like, yeah, that's a whole lot of conversation. Yeah, I mean, like, broken. Either way, yeah. Then he came inside of her, you know?

Like he, it's, he's gotta, so whatever. It just, he needs to take that ownership. He needs to accept that. Right now, he, because he can easily be like, she broke in, she's crazy, she's all this. It's just so easy to paint her. And she is, you know, in some version of the, is the bad guy to him, and she is going to make his life probably difficult, but he will be a happier person and go further in life in general by just like owning what he did wrong and how

he can improve his situation. Yeah, he's very much so in the victim mindset. Yeah, so that's step one. And then step two is, yeah, just painting this picture of just like, this could be as difficult as it is, one of your best moments in your life. Very few opportunities in our lives. Do we get to be someone's hero? Do we get, in parenting in general, I think,

as you obviously, I'm sure feel recently, you just had another get, you know, in parenting in general, I think as you obviously I'm sure feel recently, you know, you just had another baby, you have young kids, you guys are relatively new parents. Yeah, like most of us live these very charmed privilege whatever like, you know, mundane lives and whatever and the most meaningful thing we can do is be parents, right? And then now he, you know, he doesn't have an ideal situation but he has a chance to be this kid's hero, you know, and he has to think about the long game and he has to think about the impact he can have on this child's life for years to come, you know, as a 35 year old man. And he's got to want to have to have that fight and thank God he's in a, he's a successful man who has money and can make these fights and yeah yeah, it might cost him in ways, but like again, like, so you just got to paint that picture of it's, it's an opportunity for him.

You know, you're not going to get very far by criticizing him and putting him down and calling him a deadbeat. It's more about like, you have a chance here to do something that will make you really proud of yourself. And if you don't follow up with this decision, this is also something that you, it's gonna have years of regret. I mean, there's just very few parents out there

who for whatever reason, they all have the reasons in the present of why they just weren't as present of parents or why they weren't the type of parents they thought they would be when they thought about being parents. And this is something that could haunt you, you know? And it's like, he's looking for-

And it does, I think it does haunt him. He's looking for meaning, he's looking for purpose and now he's like investing this time in this younger woman, again, no criticism for me, but like it's also someone who's like, he's talking to his friend for an hour and a half about a girl he just started dating. You don't do that unless there's some serious

relationship problems, unless you're, you know, and he's not even willing to see that. This is emotional energy that he's wasting on someone who still wants to like pop bottles. And he's saying to himself, well, I don't get why she wants to do that. Well, who gives a shit why she wants to do that? She wants to do that.

Like, I mean, I don't know, like maybe she had a different childhood than him. You know, I don't know. Maybe she was in an isolated family where she didn't get to go out as much, I don't know, maybe she was in an isolated family where she didn't get to go out as much. I don't know, part of the reason why Nellie and I work as well as we do is we had very different childhoods. You know, I got a, my parents were very strict.

I didn't get to do much, you know, like in my team. I mean, I had a great childhood, but you know what I'm saying? I wasn't just, Nellie was just living by herself at 17 in New York, you York. She grew up really fast. That allowed us when we met for her to like actually want to do the same things that I was looking to do in the time in which we were together.

It wasn't like I want to settle down someday and things like that. So he doesn't want to see that right now. And honestly, there's a part, this is drama that he can preoccupy himself with. So there's that. But I get as far as getting through to him, I really think you have to be patient.

You really do. Don't be the only, you know, you said you're the only people who really feel this way as well. You don't want to be the only people who are making him feel like a piece of shit. Because we, we, we aren't, we definitely aren't like, we're super supportive. The conversations we've had with him are very positive over, like, I never have said, like, you are a deadbeat. I'm like, you can't be uninvolved in this child's life. Like, you can't not be a dad

when you have this opportunity to be a dad. So I think you just change your messaging into telling him what he can't do, because then it's just like, well, I mean, I can, you know? Yeah, yeah, he solidly has that up. You don't want to be this. Like, I want you to think about 10 years from now, and like, this is gonna weigh on you. This only has that up. You don't want to be this. I want you to think about 10 years from now and this is gonna weigh on you.

And yes, this is a shitty situation, but you just have to own the role you played. And now this can be the best thing that ever happened to you. It really can, because you have a child and it's gonna be difficult. But if this woman is as crazy as he thinks and like this kid needs someone and he has to see it that way. But you're gonna have to be patient with him and it's a tough situation he's in, you know, and he's gonna need people like you

to believe in him that he can be a good father because he's not getting that from anyone else. that he can be a good father because he's not getting that from anyone else. And he does. So what's frustrating is that we have these conversations over and over. And I know I can see that he wants it, but he just like can't get over the barriers of her. And it's, I mean, I've literally like, we've had this, I can't even tell you how many hundreds of hours of conversations we've had about the situation. It's just kind of getting him over that hump. I think where you're- And I don't know how to get him there.

Does your husband talk to him much about this stuff? Cause I really think like man to man, he needs a little bit of like, you know, he needs to get kind of called out and get a little pep talk about like, hey, man to man, you need to step up and be someone I know you're capable of being because like you're better than this and and a little like you need to take care

of your people, you need to take care of your family, this kid is your family, do not abandon your family and like adversity comes in all different forms. Right now you and your husband have this sounds like great nucleus. I don't you know listen I'm not trying, adversity comes to all of us, right? And your husband has to paint this picture, like listen, this is how adversity's coming to your doorstep, but you still have to show up.

And adversity's gonna come to your guys' doorstep, I don't know in what way, but then you guys are gonna have to step up and show up. And that's what being a parent or an adult, and he just needs you two to believe in him. But I really think some of this will be more impactful coming from your husband, especially when it comes to like,

you need to step up for your family. Yeah, I think that is a good idea because I do think a lot of the advice he's getting from his family side is from his sister and his mom. And I'm like the third person that he family side is from his sister and his mom. And I'm like the third person that he goes to, mostly his sister and I, which up until the child was born, we were very much on the same page. And then I don't know what happened, but she kind of split and went the other direction, which is surprising. It's not, listen, it's one of those things where like,

yeah, I mean, I'm even, I'm sure people listening might be able to say, Oh, you know, it's a messy situation. There's so many nightmare stories when it comes to custody battles. And if this, you know, like, you know, yeah, I think, so there's just, they're just operating out of fear. You know what I'm saying? You know, she's an unpredictable person

who has an immense amount of control and power in this situation. And that's scary when unpredictable people have power and control. So I get where the reservations are coming from. You know, I- Me too. Whether we understand it, whether we would do the same thing,

it's just, it's coming from a place of fear. So he just has to see this as an opportunity. He has to see this as the biggest challenge of his life to date. And a challenge that like, again, you know, whatever frustrations that this person brings in his life to date and a challenge that like again you know whatever frustrations that this person brings in his life he has a chance to like have a impact on someone's life in a meaningful way and very often we don't get to do that you know and parenting is one is an opportunity for

all of us. Yeah I do agree that I think it would be helpful for my husband to have a really good one-on-one conversation. I don't think that that's actually happened up until this point. He has been involved in like a more of a group conversation, but hasn't had like that one-on-one time with him. And I think as, you know, as a parent, my husband is less patient with the situation, um, because he sees like how he'll like say one thing and then not My husband is less patient with the situation because he sees how he'll say one thing

and then not follow through with it. He acts like he wants it but doesn't actually. He needs to be patient and he needs to also challenge his friend, but there needs to be a level of patience. Listen, you guys, clearly he's disconnected from this kid. He's never been a dad, like you said. He hasn't met this child.

The bond isn't there, you know, he didn't like it to nest with his pregnant partner at the time in which she, you know, like, which even then, you know, like even dads, I remember when Ali was pregnant with River, it's like, there's a different bond that moms have when you meet. So he doesn't have that, right?

You guys have this because you're bonding and connecting with your family. You've seen, you know, you're just assuming how he's going to feel once he meets his kid. And so he needs to be patient, but it can just sit and patient and it's challenge him. And it's like, it's more like you gotta, he's gotta believe in his friend,

because you know, his mom and his sister are just feeding him with fear. It's just like, I don't know, man, she can make the rest of your life, you know, the next 18, the next 20 years are just going to be miserable and she's going to try to take your money and yada, yada, yada. And like. Yeah, that's good advice.

Yep. And I do have another question. So he's kind of at a crossroads now where the next step is to establish legal paternity, um, she won't willingly do it. And he has, he has said and acknowledged that is what I need to do. It's been five months and he hasn't done that yet. But what if then he gets to the point where he makes that decision, it is determined that he is the father and then he ultimately decides I don't want to be involved, which is a strong possibility. What are you asking me?

Like how, like what I struggle with is like being okay with that, I guess. Okay. What do you mean? Like, what are you worried about? Are you worried about pushing this guy to do the thing that you want him to do? And he decides to back out and then now he's like, No, I'm worried about him just ultimately deciding, like no, I don't want to be involved. And like, are we okay with that as his friend,

with him just like not being involved in the child's life? Yeah, listen, yeah. I don't think you abandon this guy. It is a unique situation. You can always, you can feel how you feel about it. He's gonna have to live with this, you know? He will. And the point you're gonna make over the short term

is that like, listen, like, this is something you either gonna like end up being really proud of yourself and it's gonna be a life accomplishment, 10, 15, 20 years from now when you realize you stepped up and again, like maybe the most meaningful way of your life or you're in 15, 20 years from now, you're gonna have a ton of regret. You know, and you don't know why and in what manner and way that's going to manifest.

This kid, does this kid reach out to his absent father and, and, and, and say, why weren't you there for me? Why'd you leave me along with this woman? Uh, or, or is he going to wish, you know, or is he just going to have nightmares about his son, you know, like, I don't know, maybe he keeps chasing the wrong women and he ends up, you know, not being a father and the way he planned, I don't know. And then I just, he, it's like, that's not your, you know,

he will have to pay whatever consequences. It's not your job to like punish him by like alienating him. You don't have to love what he's doing, but like, he hasn't turned into a bad guy. It's not like he's magically unsafe around your kids or he's doing, but like he hasn't turned into a bad guy. It's not like he's magically unsafe around your kids or he's doing low character things. Like, yeah, we wouldn't do what he's doing. We don't agree with it, but you can still empathize

with the situation he's in and you don't have to praise him for it. You don't have to pretend that you're okay with it. I don't think it has to define your friendship going forward if ultimately he doesn't man up. He'll have to live with those consequences. Yeah, that's really helpful. We've just because we don't have any,

there isn't anybody else that's pushing him in that direction. We just didn't want it to seem like to him that it was coming across that we were okay with the situation. Now, mind you, I think he, it's pretty clear. He knows where we stand on it, especially being parents. But I think I just want to, I want parents. But I think I just wanna, I want you.

Ignoring it with complacency. I want, I want, the big message I wanna get across to you is that if you're gonna be successful in convincing him to do what you think he should do, it's not gonna come from a place of you guys being his parent and being disappointed in him and letting him know that you don't agree with it. Like at the end of the day, this is,

you know what I'm saying? Like he already knows that you don't agree with it. Like at the end of the day, you know what I'm saying? Like he already knows that you don't agree with it. Like spin it into more positive. Yeah, you know, it's like if you've threatened to not talk to him anymore, he's just gonna get victimized himself again. You know what I'm saying? He's gonna put himself as a victim.

You got to make him feel empowered. You got to make him feel like this is the right thing to do, that this is a chance to fulfill his destiny as a person who, very few people nowadays, yeah, most people are emotionally weak people who don't step up to challenges, who victimize themselves, and are kind of losers. And he has a chance to be a winner here.

He has a chance to be a winner and step up in ways that most people wouldn't step up and it's gonna be hard, it's gonna be a battle, and it's not gonna be fun, especially early on, but the reward is so great at the end of like this fact that he was, you know, and he has to see that. He is not gonna make this decision

because his friends are disappointed in him. You know what I'm saying? That's not why he's gonna make this decision because his friends are disappointed in him. You know what I'm saying? That's not why he's gonna do this. So it really doesn't matter. Like you don't, you know, he has so much. Yeah, you're thinking about, well, how do we make him feel shame if he doesn't do what we want to do? I would, that's just a waste of your energy. Yeah. And no, it's not that I think what it, it's not that we want him to feel shame at all. I think it's that we just see so much potential in him. Like he's a really solid human. He's a great friend.

He's got a great job. He's just got a great family. He's got so much going for him and he doesn't see what we see in him. He lacks confidence and he's super good looking. Girls just like fall in love with him. If he had the right woman in his life who was saying, hey, we're gonna do this together, he would, but he's alone and he doesn't have the right, you know, and listen, I don't know what I would do

10 years ago if I was single as fuck and going on a bunch of dates and dating women my age or older and younger and just being like, I don't fucking know at this point. You know, we are in an emotionally healthy situation and we have the support system that he doesn't have. So you have to give him some empathy. You just have to like really make him believe in himself

and see the opportunity here. So how do you, because that is like one of our biggest issues or his one, not ours, his is that he lacks confidence. So I'm consistently like in our conversations guiding him like, Hey, you have so much going for you. Like how do I, I mean, I, at the end of the day, I can only do so much. And like he is in therapy, his therapist, in my opinion, I have shared with him, he doesn't need a new therapist. But how do I just continue doing what I'm doing? Any other

advice? Honestly, yeah. His confidence is really- He can only do so much. A lot of his confidence probably comes from his childhood. I hope his mom made him believe in himself. You can only do so much, but keep doing what you're doing. Slow burn. Yeah. Your husband as well, but yeah, you can only do so much.

Yeah, that's what I figured you would say. He's only 35. Listen, the good news is as a guy, the time's a little more gracious and forgiving with men who figure their shit out later in life. So maybe there's still hope, but again, just keep helping him believe in himself. That's all you can do. Okay. All right. All right. Thanks, Nick. I appreciate it. That is really helpful.

I'll have my husband talk to him. I think that could be a great next step. And just overall, I think not even, I don't think it's like vocally that we are negative about it, but I think we could, when we do have conversations, just like spend it as more of an opportunity.

So he starts to change his mindset around it being less of a burden and like an issue. He's got to think for 10, 15, 20 years about how he thinks he's going to think about himself then, depending on what he does today. And does he really think he's gonna regret stepping up you know no matter all the what is sure to be a bunch of shitty moments and challenges and adversity dealing with this person but at the end of it he has someone who

he helped raise and was a meaningful presence in this person's life and and really helped save them or is he going to be the person who, 15, 20 years ago, chickened out and played the victim and didn't own up to the fact that like, he was a consenting adult in a pivotal moment of his life and instead of stepping up, he took the easy way out. And as a result, doesn't have a relationship with someone he's the father of.

And I can definitely tell it weighs on him. Like it's a heavy thing. I can, I absolutely know in 10 years, he'll have regret. Like it's something he thinks about regularly. It's just a matter of getting him over. Don't tell him what he's, you know, just keep ask, just paint the picture. You know? Positive, yeah.

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How's it going? Good. My name is Lindsay. I'm 28 and I was wondering, should I tell my friend that her soon to be ex-husband used to be my therapist? How long you been friends with this person? So I've known her, let's call her Sarah. I've known Sarah about three years.

We work, um, we're both, um, fitness instructors at the same studio. So we've known each other in passing if our classes are at the same time, but I haven't been friends, friends with her until very recently, um, just a few weeks ago, we started watching bachelor in Paradise together every week. And that's really the first time that I've ever hung out with her outside of work. But I followed her on Instagram the whole time I've known her. So I knew that she got married in 2023. And that's actually how I knew that her husband was a therapist.

She posted about it that he was beginning his practice. And if you want a new therapist, here's the link. And I was like, you know what, I you want a new therapist, here's the link. And I was like, you know what? I could use a new therapist. So wait, wait, you, so she refer indirectly referred you to her husband. Yes. And so that's what makes it extra weird is not

only did her husband at the time would not only was he my therapist, but I knew going into it that he was her husband, which always felt a little bit weird. And you didn't tell her because why? You just didn't want anyone to know you were in therapy? Partly that, yeah. I didn't wanna really talk about it.

It was, I mean, a really, really tough time for me for so many reasons, and so I didn't really wanna just be like, oh yeah, therapy. But also because I didn't know her very well. We weren't very close. So I thought it would be a little bit odd. Okay. And he's no longer your therapist?

You like he sucked or what? Yeah. I just didn't like his therapy style. It wasn't what I needed at the time. So he was my therapist for about six months. And then in January, I took mid thirties, mid late thirties. Yeah. Um, and January, they were married for less than two years. Huh? Yes. Yep. You know, you know, do you know the T?

Yeah. So I got the T last week, um, from her and from her. Yeah. When we were watching bachelor in paradise before we started the episode, it's, um, me me her and a couple of her best friends. And so her friends already knew, but essentially the T is he has borderline personality disorder and was just very extreme, very controlling, very troubled, had substance abuse issues put on a pretty face when he was outside the house, but then he would come home to her and kind of just be nasty and she had had enough is essentially the tea. And he's a therapist, well. Yeah, yeah.

That's the thing is I'm kind of shook because I never knew. Like, you know, I only knew him in a very professional manner and we never talked about his personal life, obviously, because he was my therapist. I'm assuming this is a friendship that early on you value and that you want to maintain?

Yeah, yeah. I've always really kind of wanted to be friends with her, but it's always kind of scary to reach out to someone and be like, hey, you seem really cool, we should hang out. But yeah, I, yeah. How old is she? Also mid, late 30s.

All right, you do absolutely need to tell her, 100%. Okay. Yeah. Ah, okay, then how? That's my question. Well, convince me, well, I mean, clearly this is, like you were hoping I'd say something different. Just for fun, the part of your brain

that's clearly too scared to tell her. Forgetting about your fears, set your fears aside. Give me the unemotional argument of why you think it would be better not to tell her. Unemotional argument? I have no unemotional argument. Okay, well, good, okay. So I guess your point is being made, Nick.

I think really I just am wondering if there's a point, just because if she, and that's part of why- She definitely, to answer your question, if like she actually, she absolutely, this could end your friendship. Like, it just could, you know? Totally get where your, like your best, you just have to be honest

and hope that she receives it at a time and a place where she can get past the emotional trigger and what is going to initially feel like a kind of a violation, right? I'm completely disconnected from the story. And when, you know, it took a, took you about three minutes for you to like paint the picture of the story. And then like the first minute I was like, it seems kind of fucked up.

Like, why didn't I, how could she not tell her? And then it's kind of like, okay, I don't know, like therapy, there's a level of prop, you know, okay, I get it. She just didn't want, you know, she had shit going on, she didn't really know this girl, and like, there's some awkwardness, but like every day, every, put it this way, like you should have told her before she confided in you

about the tea, right? Because every instant that this woman opens up to you and trusts you with something that she's not necessarily trusting with other people and you have something that you are not sharing with her that you know she would like to, something that personally involves her, like her divorce has nothing to do with you,

it feels like a violation. And that is this going to, when we meet people in adult life, ultimately, whether it's a romantic relationship or a friendship, and I'm especially as a woman, you can appreciate this as much as anyone, like your first thought is, is this person safe for me to be around?

Yeah, and to really make that decision, you need to have all the information and she doesn't have all the information. Well, yeah, now you kind of, it's a little snake in the grassy. It's just like you're feeding her, she's feeding you information, you're holding information back. It's so what should I do then? Cause that's, and I would think so she, she gave me the tea. It was last week. So it wasn't that long ago. We were with her friends and they were talking about one of his friends was coming to get his stuff from her garage. And so it came up. And just like enough like little things were dropped

here and there that I was like, I, I'm just, I'm a nosy bitch. And I was trying not to let it get the best of me, but enough was being dropped that it got the best of me. And I was like, okay. So I asked her like, when we were there with her friends, if she like felt comfortable talking about it, I'm like, you don't have to, but like what, what happened? Like, I'm really curious. And so she like opened up to me there with her friends, if she like felt comfortable talking about it, I'm like, you don't have to, but like what happened? Like, I'm really curious. And so she like opened up to me like with her friends there who already knew. And like, I guess, are you saying maybe

that would have been a good moment or before then? I've never really been with this woman one-on-one. It's always been either at the studio or around her friends. Listen, you should have told her, I don't know the dynamic of your friendship, but in my world, I would have, as soon as you, oh, yeah, I'm actually, your husband's my therapist,

thanks for the reference, it's a casual. But at the same time, I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes, I don't know how sensitive therapy was for you in that moment. Understand that not everyone's comfortable sharing who their therapist is. You know, it's like, my therapist's name is Darlene,

you know, like, whatever. I was, my therapist, I was referred to by a friend who's now wife has the same therapist. And we don't really talk about it. So I understand there's a level of sensitivity about like, we go to the same person for like, I don't know. I get where you're coming from. I don't know if she will.

Hopefully she will. Thank God you personally hate him as your therapist. Like you have that going for you. You're like, I just, but you're gonna have to get it out fairly quickly. Uh-huh, okay. Ah! You know, and you're gonna have to acknowledge

that like, I need to tell you something. I had my reasons, I handled it poorly, but like, I really value your friendship, and you know, especially in adulthood, and here's why, but I wanted to tell you, this is not an excuse, I didn't know how to tell you. I should have told you beforehand. And my reason for not telling you sooner is because

I was trying to figure it out but this was wrong. And listen, I'm telling you because I value trust and I want people to be trustworthy in my relationship and I want you to feel like I'm a friend that you can trust and I don't feel like I wouldn't be. And I think you just kind of get it out very vulnerably without trying to make excuses. You really don't like,

and she has every right to be as mad as she wants to be. That's the important thing is like, if she gets super mad, you just have to let her be mad. That's not the point where you're like, but I had the right to feel this way. She might need some time to to take a break from you. I don't know, maybe she might be like, girl, at least we both hate him.

I don't know, it really could go either way. I don't know, you have to allow her to be, she has the right, she's going through a divorce that's obviously very vulnerable. It sounds like her ex, you know, if he is a therapist and a little toxic, I'm sure on some ways he's made, you know, he's fucked with her emotions.

Take full responsibility, you know, and just, I don't know, you're gonna have to let it play out. But you have to tell her, you have to tell her. Yeah, yeah, and the sooner I do it, the better. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think my only redeeming grace here that might make it okay is last week, her opening up about like why she's getting divorced is really the first time that we like kind of crossed

that line into like a vulnerable friendship before last week. Like we literally were just coworkers who had started watching reality TV together. And so I'm hoping that because that door was like just barely opened, that it's still an okay time to. Yeah, and I think you just say, listen, it feels weird. And I feel like I should have just told you,

but at the time I just was like very nervous about therapy. I didn't really know where to get a therapist. That's a very common, you know, thing. She provided a link because I'm sure she'll remember. And yeah, that happened at a time where I honestly just was very nervous about therapy. And so no, I wasn't trying to advertise I was in therapy, even though it was your husband at the time,

and doctor, patient kind of thing. So I just kind of set that aside. But now that we've gotten closer and I don't work with him anymore, I just felt like I should tell you because I didn't want to keep that from you. I want friendships in my life where there's a level of trust. I'm really sorry if I violated that trust. I don't think I handled it as best as I could, but this is me trying to do that. And I think, you know, so you say something like that. Like, what you don't wanna do is be like,

well, this is why I said this, and this is why I was justified for saying this, and this is why I'm not wrong. Like, you were wrong, and that's fine. And maybe well-intentioned, and maybe they're, you know, you just have to hope that she is in a position to empathize with the position you are in and then offer you grace,

knowing that like the person she got to know, well, like the mistake you made is, I guarantee you, she's made a version of this mistake at some point in her life, the question is, is she in a position to see that and to recognize that and offer you the grace that you're hoping to get from her. I'm scared. Yeah.

But that is- I've gotten myself in a predicament here. Yeah, that's life. But like what you don't want to do is like, let your fears justify your choices, because that's when you get into territory of just like shitty behavior that you're able to justify because you don't want to be inconvenienced by some confrontation or the fear that you could

lose someone but you are establishing relationships based off of like deceit and lies and you wouldn't appreciate being in that position and you want to feel comfortable with the people you surround yourself with and you you know what it's like, I am sure, to have made friends and feel like they were kind of being shady and a little misleading and having to be like, I don't know if I should fuck with this person, and I really used to fuck with this person,

but I don't know, they're just kind of, they always have excuses as to why they can't just be fucking up front. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Okay, then I need your advice then on like how I should tell her, like, should I be like, hey, let's get coffee? Like, so we're not watching Badger in Paradise this week

because she had a conflict. So that buys me some time until I see her again. When do you only hang out? I wouldn't do it that night. I wouldn't do it around her other friends. Yeah, obviously. Have you guys gotten lunch? Would that be a first if you asked her out for lunch? It would be a first.

And again, I'm not making excuses for myself, but that's part of the reason I haven't told her. I've never been alone with this woman, really. It's always been either at work around clients or with her friends. And so this would be a first. But I don't think it would be weird if I asked her to get coffee.

I don't think she'd be like if I asked her to get coffee. I don't think she'd be like, Whoa, like coming on too strong. I asked her, you know, I'd be like, Hey, there's something I wanted to, I always hate the load of like someone wanted to talk to you about. Right, exactly.

Like we need to talk. We need to talk. Don't get mad, don't get scared. I don't want to freak her out, you know? Like, I'm like, Hey, do you, like you want to get her coffee sometime? I wanted to run something by you.

Yeah, yeah, and I could just ask her like, hey, since we're not watching Bachelor in Paradise this week, like, can we just like hang out and do something else instead so I can still see you? Ah! I would maybe just say the run something by you. It's gonna catch her off guard, but it won't freak her out,

because running something by you sounds like you're going to her for advice. Yeah, okay. If you say so, I don't know. I don't know if that's the best way. I'd be like, well, what are you running by me? Like I wanna know right now. I don't know how nosy she is about that stuff.

Yeah. I just say, you know, you try to get together with her. Or call her, FaceTime her. I don't know, have you ever called you ever, have you called her ever? Have you FaceTimed her? No, no, that's the thing, like we really, this friendship is brand new, but I don't wanna ruin it like right from the jump.

And it sounds like maybe I am if I don't change something quickly. You, listen, you don't know this girl, it's like a new relationship, you just have to come clean. Listen, she also, like this is also, think of it in dating terms too, right? Understand that this is an exciting person you got to meet, you had some good chemistry early on,

there's some good compatibility, you have a mutual interest in Bachelor in Paradise. This friend has a lot of potential, just like a potential romantic partner does, right? And right now you're seeing it through rose-colored glasses. You're a little vulnerable about some baggage you're bringing into this relationship. It's like, will they accept me because of this baggage I had

that had really nothing to do with them, but definitely could affect their opinion of me, et cetera, et cetera. But how people handle disappointment, how they handle adversity says a lot about their ability to be a part of your life and in a relationship with you as some kind in the future. And so you know that while you kinda fucked up

and maybe didn't handle it the best, this is not a malicious thing. This is definitely, there's a little bit of what a coincidence, what a, oh my God, it just kind of happened this way. I definitely wasn't expecting to be this woman's friend. Turns out like, I mean listen, ex-wives and mistresses have become best friends, you know what I'm saying? So like you guys, there's a chance that this really is just a small bump in the road. I don't know this person,

you know, but if this, if this girl is just completely unwilling to see your point of view at all, then maybe it's just also not the friendship that you thought it would be, you know? Because any friendship and relationship, it requires empathy and grace and understanding and vulnerability and things like that. And if she hears you out, it does make a lot of sense, you know? There's going gonna be a little bit of like, I would just say, listen, when you were telling, I felt wrong hearing you open up about your ex. I only know him in a professional capacity,

but I also didn't wanna bring it up because I didn't wanna bombard you with the truth around your friends. And I just didn't know how you would feel about it. That's not an excuse, that just was my reason. And I just didn't know how you would feel about it. That's not an excuse. That's just was my reason. And I just don't know you well enough to know how I should have delivered that information. And so you just say like, I, you know, vulnerably, like I, I, I, like, I

don't mean this, you can say that sounds corny, but like an adult, like I've really enjoyed becoming friends with you and I value this friendship and I wanna be upfront and honest with you and I wanna come to you and just tell you and if you, I'd love to hear how, you know, like just tell me how you feel. You have a right to be upset and if you, you know, and going forward, I hope that we're never in a position like this again, but.

I do wanna be upfront with my friends and I want them to feel like I'm someone who it just is as transparent as I possibly can be and I wanna be transparent with you. Yeah, no, that all makes sense. And like I said, like I don't know her super well either, but from what I know about her, I feel like she would take it okay. But you're right, if she doesn't,

then she has that right as well. I do think it helps that it's been over six months since he was my therapist. I think that distance helps in the fact that I stopped it. Who knows? That's not really for you to decide. Yeah, no, that's true, that's true. If she doesn't think it helps, it doesn't matter.

You're wasting your energy trying to like, decide for her how she, like what she's going to like, you don't, you have no idea. Yeah, you're right. I'm just trying to mentally prepare myself. Oh my gosh. I'm scared. But you became friends with her how recently?

Um, really in the past few weeks. Okay. I think you're going to be okay. I mean, again, this all makes sense. It makes sense why you didn't tell an acquaintance that her therapist was her ex-husband because like ultimately like you're not out there advertising that you're in therapy. But now that you've become friends with her, it just feels like something like friend to friend like you wanted her to know because obviously she opened up to you and you just

didn't know how to handle it in the moment when you were around a group of people. But like, I don't want, I always want my friends to feel like I don't keep things from them that are their business. You know? And I feel like this is your business as much as mine now that we're friends

and you're opening up to me about this guy. And I just, you know, and so I really think, I think that's why you reaching out, like will fit that narrative of why you didn't tell her along the friends because this is you making sure you guys are alone because I just didn't, I didn't wanna, I didn't know if you wanted me to tell you that way, so.

No, that completely makes sense. And I mean, I guess like worst case scenario, she's like, screw you. And then when I went into her at the studio, it'll be awkward. Like. I don't think she's going to say screw you. I mean, that, that would,

based on what you're telling me. She doesn't seem like that kind of person. Well, also just based on what you're telling me, it doesn't seem to justify a screw you. Like I get your point of view, right? This is definitely like a, I don't know what you could have done differently, but I get why she might feel a little weird about this.

Yeah, yeah. And the longer I go without telling her, the worse it's just gonna get. It's just like right now, right? This is a woman who probably has trust issues. Anyone going through a divorce has some kind of trust issues or some kind of emotional trauma. There's a very vulnerable, like,

yeah, when shit happens to you, it's hard not to get paranoid about it repeating itself. Right? Like when you go through a breakup or a divorce, there's always the like, how did I not see this coming? You know, they presented one way, now they're a different person. So like her radar for that type of behavior

is probably more heightened now. So I'm just coming from that perspective, not the like you fucked up and how could you have done this and like I just, I can't reason with your logic. I'm not there. Like everything you've said makes a ton of sense on why you got to this point, but what really matters going forward is that you again,

don't allow those excuses to get you into the territory of now six months go by. You've been friends with this chick for six months, you still haven't told her. You're still in kind of that gray area of like, you know what, I kinda get it. She didn't really know what to say. She told me pretty fast.

And then when you sit down and you emphasize honesty and communication and wanting to be upfront and having that difficult conversation with her, if she is a reasonable person, despite going through this very vulnerable state, I'm assuming she will see that rather than being the person who's just like very defensive, very argumentative, trying to justify everything. To me, that matters more because that will be more telling.

It's like when you date someone, again, use that same analogy. People will give you certain cues about how they are handling disappointment and how people handle disappointment is a huge indicator on how they'll be in a relationship, whether it's romantic, whether it's a friendship. And while this is adversity that you guys are facing, you have an opportunity to give her some indications that like trust matters to

you, healthy communication matters to you, you have a willingness and an ability to like have confrontation and just be an adult and be vulnerable and acknowledge that you made some mistakes and you wanna correct them. Those are a bunch of green flags. And you have to be willing to show those green flags. Knowing that like you don't know this person well enough to predict how they're gonna handle this information

and you are afraid that she won't handle it well and you are afraid that you're gonna lose this very short brief, but like very nice relationship you've been able to cultivate. Yeah, no, that all makes sense. That makes sense. Ah, I'm scared. No, that all makes sense. That makes sense. Ah, I'm scared. Okay, so I suppose that-

Well, I'm dying to know how this conversation goes. Yeah, me too. Okay, so next step then would be to reach out to her and just ask her either to FaceTime or get coffee or something, because I want to run something by her. And then hopefully. Well, I would say, I always say, Hey, are you free for coffee whenever I maybe don't even run something by maybe she's like, yeah, great. If she's just like, if she's like, oh, I'm kind of busy,

blah, blah, blah, like, let's get together. I'm not free until next, you know, Monday night or whenever. I don't know. We always watch it on Tuesdays and daily on Hulu. Anyway, if she's not available till next Tuesday, then I would say, well there's something I just wanted to run by you. Do you have time for like a quick call or a FaceTime? Okay, yeah, kind of hold off on that sense of urgency or something unless she says this.

And even then, you're creating an agency that you run around something by her, so you're not being like, hey, there's something I wanna run by you. Yeah, because that's what I was wondering. If I just asked her like, hey, do you wanna get coffee or something? And just like left it at that, would that be any level of like deceitful or anything,

asking her to get coffee when I know that the reason is I wanna speak with her about this, but she doesn't? No, because you do, this is a conversation it's better to have in person. Yeah, okay. I mean, again, there's no really, I mean, he was your therapist. You didn't have, you know what I'm saying?

You didn't have a secret relationship. This is a professional relationship that includes a level of privacy and vulnerability. I don't know, if her ex-husband was an oncologist and maybe he was your doctor because you had a cancer scare of some kind and maybe you just didn't want the world to know that, you would have the right to keep that a secret.

I don't think you should lean on that or harp on that, but I just say, listen, this all happened when I needed therapy. I wasn't, and maybe, I don't know if you're comfortable talking about why you needed therapy now with her, that you can offer that as almost like, she shared something with you, now you're gonna share something with her that's vulnerable

and you hope that she accepts, whatever. But it has happened at a time where you're just like, I just didn't think of going up to this random girl who was more of an acquaintance being like, just so you know, your husband, you could have, but I just didn't think of going up to this random girl who was more of an acquaintance being like, just so you know, your husband, you could have, but I just didn't know, I don't know. I was very private about my therapy at the time. It didn't work out, he's not my therapist anymore.

Happy to, whatever you wanna know about that, I'll tell you, but like, and then we became friends and I just kind of froze and I didn't really know what to say. But I really like you as a friend. And, and I, I don't want anyone, let alone my friends to feel like I keep things from them. And so I didn't tell you last week because we were around Betty Sue and Diane.

And I just wasn't sure how you would receive this or if they cared and I just I didn't want to assume so I hope this is the I hope this comes across as the most mature way of handling this because that's what I'm trying to do but I I and if whatever questions you have and if I don't know if this I don't even know how you're gonna feel about it but like I just I want you to know that like I just wanted to tell you and however're going to feel about it, but like, I just, I want you to know that like, I just wanted to tell you. And however you want to feel about it, is how you know, you have the right to, I get it.

Yeah. Yeah. Just being so open and vulnerable. Yeah. That's your best approach. If she, she, I honestly think she, it'll be fine. I really do. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. She's a very very level-headed person and so I do, yeah. And she might just love that you fired him.

So there's that, she probably will. We can bond over that. Truly, I mean, she just, her first thought, her first question will be like, if you don't get it out in time for her to ask, her first question will be like, is you don't get it out, in time for her to ask, her first question will be like, is he still your therapist? Yeah, yeah.

That's gonna be her first thought. I think I should definitely lead with that. He used to be my therapist. I fired him a long time ago. That I would honestly lead with. That's how I would deliver it. Your husband used to be my therapist. I fired him a long time ago when we weren't friends

and I just didn't like, I was very private about my therapy and just very like honestly like insecure about just getting therapy in general. I don't know if that, and so I didn't really wanna tell anyone and then we became friends and I feel like you should know that. And I hope that how I'm delivering this doesn't come across

as misleading. And I didn't tell you when we were with the girls last time, because I just didn't know if that would be bombarding you. And I didn't know you well enough to know how you want this information. How do you want you to receive this information? So this is my best attempt at trying to do it the right way. Yeah. Best attempt.

Yeah, for sure. Oh my goodness. Okay. I'm stressing. I'm stressing. It's going to be okay. Thank you. Yeah, for sure. Oh my goodness. Okay. I'm stressing. I'm stressing. It's going to be. Thank you. It'll be okay. This is, this is really helpful.

Yeah. Cause I was like, I needed someone. That's why I wrote it. Cause I was like, I need someone who doesn't know anyone involved, um, to kind of just, you know, who have you run this by and have they given you anything different? Literally I've only run it by two of my friends.

One of them, she was like, I think you should tell? Literally, I've only run it by two of my friends. One of them, she was like, I think you should tell her, but I just don't have any idea how you could possibly approach that conversation. And then the other one was like, if she's never gonna find out, then maybe it doesn't matter. So I kind of got conflicting opinions.

Yeah, I think there's way more to be gained for the long term by telling her. Yeah. Because I'm never going to be able to stop thinking about it. It's always going to be in the back of my mind and I'm not a very good liar. And so I feel like when I have something to hide, I act a little bit weird. And I think if I held it in for too long, she would kind of start to pick up on that. Well, then it's just, it's not really the fr- I mean, again, I don't know why you're choosing your friendships in adult life, but it's just not really the, I mean again, I don't know why you're choosing

your friendships in adult life, but it's just like, it's a tainted relationship to begin with that's more based off of your mutual interest in a TV show, rather than I found someone in my adult life that I can build a meaningful relationship with that can maybe grow into like, I don't know, someone I go to for emotional support,

someone who's really in my very small, trusted inner circle of friends. I mean, she might not, this person might not get there to begin with, but if you're looking for those type of people in your life, that's how you have to start these relationships. And if you're looking for like acquaintances that like are fun to hang out with

in seasons of your life, then you take a different approach. But I think too many people treat what they call friendships as basically like temporary, they're like friendship situationships. Yeah, yeah, and I've had those. But this, yeah, I mean, she's really a wonderful woman. And like I said, I've, you know, we've been, I guess, professional acquaintances for a few years

and I've always really looked up to her. And so now that I have a chance to actually be her friend, I don't want to screw that up. Yeah, I always, I think. Because she really does seem like an amazing person. She'll probably respect how you handled it. It's not difficult to do. And knowing that like.

It sounds like it's not pass saving. And my guess is if you asked, you know, 10 people, my guess is the advice you'd get would probably be fairly split down the middle. Your reasoning makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I'm just more like, I think anyone who would give you the advice not to tell her or the type of people who don't think about what it takes to make long

lasting friendships, or they're not that interested in having them. And they're just used to, it's not a two-way relationship. It's just more of a. And I think if she's the type of friend that you hope and want her to be, she'll be the type of person who will appreciate your honesty. Yeah, no, I think you're right. And that'll make sense sense and hearing it all laid out like that it it feels pretty clear Yeah, I definitely need to tell her and I need to tell her sooner rather than later And these other women that were a part of the group. Are you friends with them too? Or are they more? No, so they're her friends. I've just met them through her. Okay Well, that's a little bit of an excuse you have to which is also really why you didn't tell them is like I wanted to tell

You I didn't want to tell them about my therapy. And yeah, yeah, because I don't know these girls really at all. I met them two weeks ago, but you know, I don't know how she will feel about like, and I guess if you're only really been friends for a couple of weeks, I guess it wouldn't have made sense for you to randomly tell someone, you know, you could just be like, I don't know what your expectations about that were, you know, like I don't know how, you know, I don't think spouses are supposed to like have, it's the hip, like. Exactly, yeah, like at the time it felt like a little bit

of a confidentiality thing, but now, you know, not only is he out of the picture as a therapist. He's definitely not supposed to tell her, right? That would be a violation. I don't think you're allowed to tell your spouses who your patients are just because they're your spouses. But now that he's out of the picture as my therapist and out of the picture as her husband,

I'm like, okay, now it makes, yeah, no, no, no. Ah, I'm freaking out, okay. Just tell her, just tell her, be vulnerable. I think it'll be fine, I think it'll be fine. I really do. Otherwise you're just, or vulnerable. I think it'll be fine, I think it'll be fine. I really do. Otherwise you're just, or you're just saving yourself from someone who's just maybe a little messy and a little toxic and a little just maybe not

in a position to like, because like this is definitely, this is dramatic, right? I mean, hell, people listen to this and be like, oh shit, what a crazy story. It's like, it's dramatic. And so if she's someone who is drawn to drama, she will use this as drama. And if she is someone who is drawn to drama, she will use this as drama. And if she is someone who is like drama adverse

and ultimately like in her adult life, she's learned how to like separate drama from like necessary, you know, things she can avoid to like, right, that's all maturity. And if she is someone who really is like looking to like work through disappointment and like just get, remove drama from her life, you are setting her up in a position to do that.

She might not take the bait. She might decide to use this as an outlet to release emotion. Who knows, right? But this will be telling for this friendship about how she handles this information because ultimately nothing you did sounds malicious and there's just maybe some miscommunication

or just not really, like a very unique situation where there weren't defined expectations and boundaries for a situation that usually doesn't present itself. Yeah, yeah, I don't even know if when she put the link out, like, you know, she was just like, you know, a proud wife moment, like, oh, look, my husband's doing this thing, like, I don't even know if she was actually expecting anyone to even consider seeing her husband as a therapist, you know? Yeah.

Okay. Okay. I feel I'm scared. I'm scared, but I feel better about this because I, yeah, I feel more certain that I know what I need to do and like why I need to do it. I understand you're scared, but I think you need to like just remind yourself that this is the right thing to do. Yeah.

It is. And you will, and things are going to play out how they're going to play out. But the result of how she handles it does not change your decision tree. Yeah. Yeah. I need to stop kind of trying to think of different scenarios that could happen and just go in. Like so many people in this position are basing their advice off of the outcome you want. Right. I want an outcome. So what do I do to get that outcome? Well, I wanna save this friendship, so how do I save this friendship right now? But the outcome you want isn't like

how to save this friendship right now, it is like how to do the right thing, how to be a friend that is someone that can show that trust and communication matters to me, and how do I build a friendship that actually has some real chance of being a meaningful relationship in my life? And based off of those parameters, what should I do?

Regardless of the immediate reaction or how she might feel in the moment. And if your only goal is to not feel like you're in trouble, then you know what I'm saying? That's what you make your decision on. No, yeah, that makes sense. Thank you by the way for not making me feel like I'm in trouble.

It's definitely a super huge coincidence. It's a weird situation. It's yeah, I was like, I don't even know. I don't even know, but I feel yeah, I feel better after this about what I should do and kind of just going into it, knowing that it's the right thing to do regardless of the outcome really does make me feel better.

And I think it makes it a lot less likely that I'm going to chicken out cause I feel awkward. For sure. Okay. Okay. Well, thank you. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much.

I appreciate it. Please let us know what, what. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to send in an update. Um, and I just also wanted to say, I've listened to your show for years and you're, you've helped me through through all sorts of things. I've never had to call in before

because you've always helped me through everything, but this is a special one. But thank you for your show and thank you for your advice. I appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you for saying that. And I'm glad that this seems helpful. It does. Hopefully it is.

Yeah, it really does. All right. All right, well, good luck. Thanks. I really wanna know how she handles it. I really it really does. All right. All right, well good luck. Thanks. I really wanna know how she handles it. I really think you're gonna be okay, and I honestly think this will bring you closer together. I hope so.

And you don't throw it at me like you really sucked at his job. Yeah, we can just bond over that. He really wasn't that good, I gotta be honest, sorry. Well, if he was dealing with his own shit, it's really- Apparently, yeah, now I know. Apparently the week I fired him is the same week that she was like, had their first talk

about it. So I'm like, oof, rough week for him. Poor guy. Yeah. All right. Not much sympathy though. All right. Well, thank you so much.

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at LEGOLAND Discovery Center Toronto, now through August 3rd. I'm master model builder Noel, inviting you to discover your play mode with awesome build activities, experiences, and even some fresh new dance moves. Enjoy the ultimate indoor Lego playground with rides, a 4-day theater, and millions of Lego bricks at Legoland Discovery Center. Build the best day ever with your family by getting tickets online now at legolanddiscoverycenter.com slash toronto. How's it going? Pretty good. How are you? Good. What's your name? My name is Grace. I'm 31 years old and I'm wondering how I can move on from my ex-girlfriend who held my

keys hostage and hid a social media scandal from me. You're wondering how you move on? Well, it's less about moving on from her and from the relationship and more so about the things that were said and done to me and sort of trying to reclaim my story and find solace and validation in my own experience without requiring like answers or confirmation from other people about what I experienced. Okay. I kind of get what you're saying, I think, but without maybe speaking in kind of more philosophical ways. How are you feeling right now about this relationship?

In the simplest way, what are you feeling that you're struggling with? And that's kind of like, all right, because that's what you're trying to do. This relationship, it ended, things happened, and now it's left you with this icky feeling. And you don't know how to get rid of this icky feeling. Am I articulating that back to you? Do you feel it? Yeah, I think so. I think I was doing a pretty good job of moving on, so to speak, until I got some information about my ex. And I think, yeah, I'm really just, I'm struggling to like find myself again after all of this. What's the information? The whole social media thing.

So one of my family members essentially told me that my ex was involved in this big social media blowout a few years ago with my ex's ex partner at the time, calling my, let's call my ex Joe. So Joe's ex partner was calling Joe out for being an abusive partner on social media. And I had like just heard about all of this the other day. Why are you struggling with that? I think because I had a different idea about what the relationship was and that my ex trusted me

and we had this like beautiful trusting bond and it's one thing for that to end and I mean, I'm the one that ended it and I feel very confident about that decision but to hear all of these other things after, I think I feel icky because I'm like, oh, so this person was, was abused other people and, and, and this has been going on for ages. And then I allowed them into my life and they did it to me and they lied about it. And just so I, I don't know.

So when your ex was an alleged abuser or being accused of it, or they were like harassing and bullying other people online? Right, no, so my ex was called out online allegedly for being abusive toward their partner. Okay, a couple years ago. Yeah, a few years ago. Okay, now okay.

And so your ex got called out by someone online for being, is it physically or emotionally abusive? Emotionally abusive. Okay. And are you saying the things that your partner was accused of, do you feel like she did that to you and with you in that relationship? I do.

I think I'm struggling with. You don't say that you're convinced of that. You're like, you're looking up to the left and you're like, I do. Like, yeah, I think, and that's sort of what I'm, what I'm grappling with. Because I, so there's like this dichotomy between like logical and emotional mind and logically, I can say that yes, I do feel that my ex was emotionally abusive. And, and like, and how so I guess, like, because they were, yeah, I mean, manipulative,

reactive or temperamental or. Yeah. Um, I mean, they're like every day that they call you a worthless piece of shit. It was more so manipulation, I think, and sort of the, the, the classic, like, you don't really love me, you don't care about me. You treat me like shit when I would, for instance,

set a boundary and say, Hey, I need you to go home, I need you to leave my apartment now I need to like go to sleep and get up early for work the next day. And then she wouldn't leave, she would stay and then she would follow me downstairs when I would try to get space and then like police got involved. Like there were just so many things as a result of my boundaries not being respected and me communicating what, in a way that I thought was very calm and respectful and being met with you're actually like a narcissist and

you're, you're horrible and you treat me like shit, you don't love me. You don't care about me. Like those kinds of things. She called you a narcissist. Yeah. Or, or that I had strong narcissistic tendencies,

I think was the exact phrasing. But I just feel like your energy is being focused on the wrong thing. Well, one, you broke up with this person. So like, gotta pat yourself on the back there. And now you're, if I'm understanding you correctly, you heard this bit of information that honestly, from how I'm understanding your story,

all it really should have done is validate your decision of moving on from this person. This person, as you're describing, when you reflected on your relationship, was at best very reactive, and when they got triggered, was very cruel and mean, and said things that are out of pocket that they probably didn't mean, or they were hurt,

so they tried to hurt you, hurt people, hurt people, things like that, right? And eventually you came to a point where it's just like, I can't keep doing this anymore. When it first happened, I'm sure you tried to give your partner the benefit of the doubt, you tried to offer her grace, you tried to work through it with her,

you tried to calm her down, yada yada. And again, as humans, we all just decide that we are now therapists and we can diagnose other people. And I think there's just a fun, a lot about abuse is about consistency and there being a pattern. It is not about someone having a bad day and saying things out of pocket that they have to apologize for and then make some meaningful changes in their life or just never replicate that. And again, I don't know how much good it's doing by you trying to figure out whether your ex really did abuse you or if you really knew who your ex was. I honestly feel like you do know who your ex was. Again, you know, like you're saying, well, actually, from what I've heard about what she was accused of back in the day, you know, the thing that you're triggered by is that what

you heard about your partner, you believe, and you believe because that's the person you dated and got to know. So it's, it's almost like counterintuitive that you have now convinced yourself to have these internal thoughts about like, did I really know this person or I can't, you know, whatever thoughts that you're having right now that are having the opposite effect. Instead of validating your decision to move on from this person, it's keeping you stuck emotionally

and thinking about this person. It's funny, I got in a spat with my parents. I don't know why I brought that up because I'm random. But we were going in circles, couldn't get through to her. And then I finally asked my parents about like, well, what, you know, they were talking about their feelings. And I was like, okay, fair enough.

But what, how would you like me to respond so that I can, based on everything I talked about, and they didn't know how to answer that question, which may help them solve my point of view. Because it was more me, because my point was like, your feelings are valid, but they are just your feelings, and it doesn't mean that you're right,

I feel a certain way, you feel a certain way. We know about that, but once we get past how we feel, what do you want to do with these feelings? I don't know if that's making any sense. And I want you to ask yourself that same question. What do you want to do with these new thoughts and feelings about your partner? You're already out. You already left the relationship. So what do you think you need? what is left to resolve? Like what are the answers that you need or are you just ruminating about someone that fucked you up a little bit and maybe fucked you up more than you

realized in the moment and you're having a hard time processing you know the loss and yeah you made a difficult this is a breaking up of her but you know, the loss and yeah, you made a difficult decision breaking up with her. But you know what I'm saying? Like, at some point, if you're going to keep thinking about a topic and you have to try to like fix that. All right. It's just like, all right, well, what can I do about this? Yeah. I think I definitely have a hard time, um, letting thoughts go.

I definitely, like, I want to analyze, I want, like I want to analyze, I want answers, I want to think things through. And ironically enough, yeah, I love that you mentioned like I'm not a therapist, you're not a therapist. I'm actually in a masters of counseling program. So I really nerd out about like human behavior and like I want to understand things and that is just sort of my pension for my nerdy thing.

The human brain. I relate, but as someone who's going to school for this, I mean, yeah, it's really important to, I think, I mean, if you listen to the show, you hear all, I'm sure you've heard so many people call in who are like, yeah, I'm going to therapy, I go all the time about this very topic. And I've been going for three years.

You're just, you're not actually trying to solve the problem, you're just trying to analyze it, you know, and in your analyzation of this problem, you're just kind of going in circles, just, you know, it's something to do. It's you've heard me talk about like, it's really tough breakups. There, there are these, you know, there's the, Hey, I don't think we should be together. Let's stop hanging out.

And then there's the physical, like I don't think we should be together, let's stop hanging out. And then there's the physical, cutting that person off, the change in your behaviors and the things that you did together and just your routines change. But again, that emotional connection can live on in your mind and body long after a relationship ends. And I think ultimately what's happening

is that you're still emotionally connected to this relationship. How long has it been since you broke up? It's been about three months. Okay, so it's not that long. How long did you date for? About a year. Okay.

So it hasn't been that long. We're definitely getting to a point where it's like, all right, it's time to, you know. But my guess is that this is just a subconscious way for you to convince yourself that it's okay to think about this person when you know you shouldn't be thinking about this person, but you're not thinking about them

in an affectionate, loving way. You're thinking about them in this kind of like psychological analyzing thing, but it's not getting you anywhere. It's not accomplishing anything. You don't even have a goal, right? There's no goal attached to this. Like, what are you trying to figure out?

Like, you think they were abusive, really doesn't really matter at this point, one way or the other, you're out of the relationship. Certainly it's disappointed that you thought you had a trusting relationship with this person and they chose not to tell you this information they got called out on. But you know, even if you're trying to empathize

with your ex, like I bet she doesn't think that she was abusive. Like in her mind, she's thinking, oh my ex is the crazy one, right? She called you narcissistic. A lot of narcissistic people call other people narcissistic. Maybe your ex and her ex were both equally toxic and she's a victim in her mind when it comes to her ex calling her out online, you know, right? So that might be her version. I don't know. Of course. So, but my point is, what is your goal? And what-

I think, I think I'm struggling with with, I totally agree with what you're saying about the cyclical nature of just analyzing things to death and it not actually resolving anything. Completely agree. But I think that I am struggling to move on and just enjoy my life, move on with my friends, another partner one day, whatever, when all of these things were like said to me

and done to me. And I don't even, I struggle to even label things as emotional abuse or narcissism and all of these buzzwords. Like I have a real- So when you say you're struggling to move on about kind of what was said and done to you, like what specifically?

Calling me abusive, saying that her abuse was reactionary abuse to my abuse. And then, even talking about it now, I feel shame that I was even like involved in a relationship that is this damaging and that I didn't leave sooner. But I just, I feel like I'm trying to analyze things to get to the bottom of like, is this, did I do something?

Is there something that I could be, of course we all have things that we could change about ourselves, but like, is there something that I have really done here? Is there any validity to what she has said about what I have done and things that I could actually improve on beyond just like general growth? Yeah, I mean, okay.

And trying to figure that out. Like, am I crazy? Because I feel absolutely crazy and that is what is really difficult for me. I don't know if my story is true. Why do you feel that way? I mean, my initial reaction to what you just said is that's a very human response to have the fact that you are even questioning and willing to look inside and reflect about the role you played suggests that, like, for one, she called you a narcissist.

That's not a narcissistic thing to do, right? We all can be narcissistic and self-centered, but most of us have the ability to go, like, I've been an asshole lately, or like, that was selfish of me, or I was wrong and I'm sorry and I feel guilt for her, you know, you feel guilt for something that you're not even sure you did and you're worried that you might be, you know, so that in itself suggests that you probably aren't that person, but being the person who wants to be a better person who wants to take accountability, you really want to figure this out so that you're not the person that your ex accused you of being, right?

It's a little gaslighty and things like that, that maybe your ex did. But again, like I always go back to like, you've heard me go on my soap box about gaslighting, right? You go online and, and people will say, if, if, if someone says any of these things to you, you're being gaslit, right? And embedded in those bullet points is some version of that person calls you crazy. Again, I've never been in a fight with a spouse or a partner or whatever or a friend where we don't at some point in the fight think the other person's kind of crazy, right? That's why you're fighting because you think their reality is kind of delusional,

and it's certainly different than your reality, which is why two people are in conflict, right? It's gotten to the point where people fight, relationships fight, they're emotionally triggering, the whole point of being in a relationship, if you can't get triggered by the person you love the most, then it's like, that's the crazy thing about romantic relationships, is they're the ones that trigger us the most, person you love the most. And it's like, that's the crazy thing about romantic relationships is like, they're the

ones that trigger us the most and they're the most volatile because they're the most precious to us. And when we get hurt by those people, it really hurts, which sometimes causes fights and what sometimes causes us to say things we don't mean and have to apologize. Still, again, if you're struggling with these thoughts, work on this with your therapist and make sure it's going somewhere. Break it down, break down a fight that you had and get a second ear on what could you have,

you definitely could make improvements as a girlfriend. You know what I'm saying? You can be a better partner, we all can. You can certainly be a better partner. So work on that. I don't think you need to want, like was I, mm-hmm, like hopefully that. I don't think you need to want, you know, like was I, mm-hmm, like, hopefully not. I don't think you were, you know, again,

I wasn't there so I can't say for sure, but the fact that you are even willing to reflect on something that your ex who has a pattern of unpredictable and reactive and potentially abusive behavior, I wouldn't spend that much emotional energy giving it that much attention or validity to the point where it's really affecting

your mental health and emotional well-being. And it's giving that person power they don't deserve. No, yeah, I agree. That's a really good point. I think I'm worried that like other people in my life might feel this way too and not have said anything. And she's just the one that actually said it. But again, like I guess you could never know.

Is there someone who comes to mind? When you say, I'm worried there's other people in my life who might've thought this way, if one person in your life outside of your ex felt this way, who would that be? Does anyone come to mind? Not a specific person. I guess, just like friends and family. Um, and I guess, I guess there are certain qualities

about myself, like talking a lot or being kind of loud and verbose that I, that I wonder like, do those come off as narcissistic? I just, I really care not about like not being myself because I think that I am comfortable in who I am, but more that like other people that I care about are going to be upset or offended based on my behavior. I mean, listen, you caring so much about what other people think of you is, I

guess in some ways has a narcissistic point to it. Right. Uh, the lot of what you're saying seems to be ego driven, which is in itself kind of has a narcissistic element to it. Whatever. And yeah, you could work on that for sure. But if no one comes to mind, if you're not like, you know what, my best friend Jenny actually,

I actually wonder if I've mistreated her, have I really taken her for granted? And if you're not having an epiphany about some crazy shit you've said to her, I mean, yeah, again, you've probably been self-centered. There have probably been, you know, if this isn't about, this is not an exercise to be like, how do I annoy you?

What are my bad habits? Yeah, I'm sure all your closest friends could be like, well, you know, kind of insufferable sometimes. When you get like this, you're hard to be around. You're, I don't know, you're really in, I sure, we all are. But most of us are people who have seasons of this. You're old enough to have probably been a really selfish prick for a half a year at some point in your life. I don't know. Where you just like, you know, especially when we're, when we're the most lost, we're the most self-centered.

You know, when we're the most like single we're the most self-centered, when we're the most single, because we feel justified, like I'm alone, all my friends have relationships, I don't have what I want yet. Those are really selfish moments of our lives when we are still chasing our dreams. I don't think that makes you narcissistic. When you are in fight or flight mode

in a fight, in a relationship, sometimes we say things that are hurtful to that other person. Hopefully you apologized at times when you've said things to your partner, you know, took accountability. But yeah, this is not about you, your ex saying some things,

and then you turning into your ego wondering if people like you. That's kinda what I'm getting a little bit. Do you have any advice then or perspective, I guess, on how to balance reflecting inward and trying to, yeah, reflect upon what somebody said about you and do better and sort of like unpack that a bit and think, hmm, like what did I do here? Versus just unproductive overthinking. Because I feel like I have a hard time defining where that line is.

Put a definition on it. Ask yourself the goal, right? Like the questions I'm asking you, you know, one, like, what am I trying to actually figure out here? Right, you can ask yourself that question, you can get to that answer. By asking yourself that question, you get certain answers.

Or what is this accomplishing? What am I feeling? What's the main feeling I have as a result of this rumination? How is it making me feel? If a lot of your answers are, I don't know, then maybe it's a sign that you're ruminating for no reasons or reasons that you can't be honest with yourself about. You know, and again, usually that's just like ego, right? Like our egos are very tricky because again, like it comes usually come, you know, it's like

disrespect, not all ego feelings and thoughts, I think are wrong, right? Like our egos help us have self-respect and to enforce our boundaries and stand up for ourselves. And those are important characteristics to have. But the stronger, the better we are at that, the more at risk we are of our egos taking over and are allowing us to see ourselves more as victims in any given situation. And then when that happens, we just kind of go down these rabbit holes.

But like, if you can't accomplish anything from your rumination, my guess is it's probably time to challenge yourself to like move on from it and that you're maybe just analyzing it to stay emotionally invested in it. And if you're an, I'm an analytical person, we just like breaking shit down. It's like puzzles in our head. You're emotionally attached to this puzzle. It's exciting in some ways is a challenge.

to this puzzle? It's exciting in some ways? Is it a challenge? Yeah, it's tricky though because I feel like I had really detached myself from the puzzle and was doing really well emotionally until I got this info, which is still my responsibility. But that was a new piece of the puzzle, right? Like you're describing like, you know, I don't know if you've seen like American treasure, you know, with Nicolas Cage, whatever. And like his family were like these lifetime treasure hunters kind of addicted to treasure hunting and things like that. And at times they'd be more like obsessed with it or not,

but like you got a new clue. And it was like Nicolas Cage's dad being like, this is just another stupid clue. Like we've been following stupid clues our whole life. Right. And he's like, no, but this is a really good clue. And you got a clue and now you're just like, oh, now we're back on the treasure hunt, you know? Totally.

So yeah, you were fine, you got triggered, you haven't dealt with this trigger in a productive way. Yeah. And you've used this trigger as a way to justify a bad habit you have, which is to overanalyze and ruminate about things. And then ones that you're emotionally connected to, it's just that much easier to go down these rabbit holes. But it's not getting you anywhere,

it's not accomplishing anything, there's nothing for you to actually solve. And now you're asking yourself questions about yourself that I think deep down you know the answers to. Yeah. You know, ironically, it is self-indulgent and it is you thinking about yourself. So if you really want to work on this so-called narcissism that you're being accused of, prove your ex wrong by letting it go.

Yeah. And see, like, I feel like it's coming from a place of, well, I want to figure out what I did wrong so that I can be a better person to help other people so that I can be a better therapist one day, a better mom one day, a better partner, a better friend. But it is, it ultimately leads back to ego and to myself. And then, and then, and then that fuels the, the, the, you know, shame of feeling narcissistic or whatever it is. Again, yeah, once you figure your shit out in the short run, you'll be a better version of yourself in the long run, but baby steps. You're kind of mind-fucking yourself by saying, well, I'm doing all this to, again, be a better person,

be a better mom, and you've convinced yourself that's the goal, but it's actually, again, that's why that ruminating goes nowhere because the goal's so broad and so big and kind of just like unspecific that you never ask yourself, what am I actually ruminating about in this moment? And what is the specific thing I'm trying to solve and understand? And that's, and the reason you can't get there is because there's nothing really to solve or understand. You're broken up. You know that she wasn't right for you. You know that while you weren't a perfect partner that like you were generally okay, but there is some things you have

to work on. And that's that. And you're not surprised. And honestly, this information, this clue that you received is not all that surprising. It just confirms what you already thought. And a person who has shown a pattern of this in past relations said some very hurtful things that really like got under your skin and messed you up. And you should deal with that, but like that shouldn't require you to stay in your head 24 seven. For sure.

Yeah, I think there's also an element of this being my first like queer relationship that I'm kind of holding onto that in a certain way. And it's been more difficult because I feel like I'm like holding holding onto that in a certain way. And it's been more difficult because I feel like I'm like holding onto this element of myself that I've like recently let surface. I don't know if that makes sense,

but I think that's part of it too. And I'm just- Maybe I probably have a harder time relating to that aspect than you. But at the same time, I just think maybe you should give, rather than be hard around yourself about it, you should give yourself more grace. This is new for me.

A lot of what I'm feeling is new and I'm trying to understand it. So focus on that rather than this again. Just trying to understand your ex on any level is just a giant waste of your time and energy. Who was I actually dating? A flawed person of which you kind of knew about. And that's why you broke up.

Great. But is trying to understand myself in relation to what I went through a waste of time? I mean, you know, maybe a better question for someone with a little more experience than me, but like, I think that's, I think you could argue semantics and I think you can debate that. I think deep down, you know the answer. And it's just striking that balance. It's just having balance in your life and it's just reminding yourself a couple times a day

that your ego exists, that it needs to be constantly kept in check, that it's gonna cause you to focus your energy on unproductive things that are more ego driven rather than things that are actually worth your time and make you happy. you kind of know the answer and like ruminating over it is really just something to do and entertaining. It's wild how you can know one thing that isn't you can know that this isn't productive and that you don't

want to be stuck in this but there's some part of you that's clinging to it for God knows what reason. I have found that in those moments, the answer is almost always your ego. Yeah. And the more you get enlightened about your ego, the harder it is to just, you know, check yourself. But like, it's also, it can be easy to do and just be like, yeah, I mean, all right.

Like it never goes away. Your ego isn't something you conquer and eliminate. It's something you learn to control. It's a superpower that left unchecked can kind of turn into this nasty virus that can take control of your life and cause you to do hopefully out of character things. When kept in check, it can be something that's really helpful for you to like stand up for yourself, know your self worth, set and communicate and enforce your boundaries, and know how to say no to unhealthy people

and choices and situations, then it's really productive. And the more enlightened you become, the better you are at every day, kind of workshopping those kind of competing emotions. And every day, there's some version of that conversation you probably need to have with yourself. But ruminating is a sign of the ego, I think, having more control than you want to acknowledge.

I think ruminating is a sign of a lack of acceptance, especially when there's no specific goal of what you're ruminating over. When there's not a like, oh, all right, this is my problem, I want to solve this problem. And as a result of the problem, I'm going to ruminate. You're just like, I feel this icky feeling. I want to understand this feeling that I'm having. I want to just keep, I want to figure it out. And you don't even know the problem. Right. Or the problem is, or the problem is this is some vague, general

thing. Right. No, I think there's an element of being, just having had a lot of anxiety for my entire life and almost feeling some weird sense of comfort in that, even though like on the surface, I don't like my anxiety. It's not productive, it's not pleasurable, but there's an element of like comfort. If I let it go, what will happen? You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Well, thanks for the call. Keep us updated on how you work through this. And we'd love an update. And hopefully this is helpful. Thanks so much, Nick. All right. Take care. Take care.