The Viall Files - E984 Ask Nick - My Husband Likes Cam Girls More Than Me

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Our first caller is wondering if her religious values are holding her back from finding the right one? Our second caller’s due date is the day after her best friend's wedding and wants to know how to break the news. And our third caller’s husband is more interested in women online than she is.  “He can have his struggles he needs to care!" Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff every Monday. Available wherever you get your podcasts and YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774286896 https://open.spotify.com/show/4NWA8LBk15l2u5tNQqDcOO?si=c03a23d537f94735 Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes.  We’ve partnered with Mint Mobile to open a hot takes hotline to hear your scorching hot opinions! Give us your hot takes, thoughts and theories and we’ll read and react to the best ones on an upcoming Reality Recap episode! All you have to do is call 1-855-MINT-TLK or, if you prefer the numbers, that’s 855-646-8855 and leave us a message. To Order Nick’s Book Go To: https://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice, send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line!  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles  THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS:  Firstleaf - Go to https://tryfirstleaf.com/viall to sign up and you’ll get your first handpicked bottles for just $44.95.  Thrive Market - Go to https://thrivemarket.com/viall and start saving today. Sale ends 8/31.  Constant Contact - Get a FREE thirty-day trial when you go to https://constantcontact.com  Cymbiotika - Go to https://cymbiotika.com/viall to get 20% off plus free shipping. Timestamps: (00:00) - Intro (00:13) - Caller One (01:02:55) - Caller Two (01:37:14) - Caller Three Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @justinkaphillips @the_mare_bare @dereklanerussell

How's it going? Good. Hi, my name is Ella. I'm 26. I'm wondering if my religious values are holding me back from finding the right one. Okay. Tell me more. I am ultra-Orthodox religious, like very, very, very religious.

Like, I've never touched a guy in my life, like, not even, like, hell's hands, like, nothing, nothing, nothing. And like, because you don't want to or you feel like the shame of it all or like, you know, religiously, like, I'm not allowed to. Okay. And how do you feel about that as a 26 year old adult? Okay. So two things. Okay.

So first, I really feel like I'm very, very connected to my religion. Like, it's not just something I grew up with. Like, it's something that's part of me. It's part of my. It's in my bones, and I really feel for it. And at the same time, it's, it's been really difficult. Yeah. Because culturally, almost everyone is married at this point.

I'm like the second to last one in my class, not married. And when you say your class, what do you mean? Like, high school. Like, I went to an all girls high school. Okay. How connected are you to your community? Because, like, for example, I grew up very religious. You may or may not know.

Having 10 siblings is usually a signal of them. that, right? We went to a Catholic church. It was, I wouldn't call it like orthodox, you know, certainly I held hands in high school type of thing. You know, there was a lot of like no sex before marriage from my parents, like conversations. There was certainly a lot of, of that kind of shame and whatever. But certainly, I guess we were not orthodox enough for me and my, my siblings to, you know, whatever we just, you know, do our thing in high school and, you know, as Catholics, Catholics are notorious for you know breaking the rules right i you know so to speak and then going to confession or whatever but i certainly am familiar with you know very devout religious parents and that kind of upbringing you

mentioned or you know you say the word orthodox obviously that that kind of seems like a signal even more serious and more intense yeah like i i never talked to like a guy like throughout high school like it wasn't like so like i just had to carry out i mean well a couple things you know one it's just like usually in my experience like the more orthodox families and communities kind of just stay within their orthodox family or communities like everyone was this more religious let's say in the you know back in the day right and you would just go to your church and then you would marry someone from your church and it was easier to be devout because like yeah we believe in the same thing you know a lot of it's just like that's why a lot of people in these very devout religious communities like

stick with their own so to speak because it is it's just you know it is hard to find people especially as modern society becomes more and more I guess agnostic to find people who subscribe to you know very rigid beliefs but it doesn't sound like that's the case for you it's like you're trying to hold on to these core values and then date people out side of your religion? No, no, no. It's what, do you, do you know how it works, like the Orthodox, Jewish Orthodox? Oh, so you're Jewish Orthodox. Okay. Yeah. I, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I don't know. Oh, don't worry. Yeah, yeah. No, it, I mean, it's all really set up through a matchmaker. Oh, okay. Yeah, everything, like, you can't, like, meet the guy yourself type of thing.

Like, it all set up through a matchmaker. And you do a lot of research and everything before you even meet the guy like your parents call his character references and everything it's like it's very intense you even do genetic testing before you even meet the guy and then he he comes to your house and he like meets your parents for like three minutes and then he takes you off to hotel lobby and you spend three hours talking and if you like him then you go out again and from there it just goes really fast and usually like eight dates later you're probably engaged okay so is that what like what you're in line for yeah well that's what i've been doing yeah how long you've been doing this seven years and you just haven't like are your parents are like exhausted trying to find you someone

you like yeah they're they're going nuts like and and it's working like i've dated like tons of guys so you're just like no i'm good no so yeah that's what's happening is like are you turning them all down or do you get rejected ever um no like like once in a while there is someone that rejects me. Okay. Yeah. No, so it's, it's, it's, it's been brutal. Like, it's been like, like, I'll be in like a hotel lobby and it will be so brutal for me to make conversation with the guy because I just feel like, I don't know, like it's just very, very hard for me. And then, but there was one guy that I did like recently. And that's, that's where the whole question came about. Okay. And, and, um, was he was. Yes, he was. So I actually, he, I met him. You know, do you know,

what a Shabbas table is. Shabbas. Sabbath. I'm familiar with the word. I don't know. I don't know, but I've seen the show Orthodox on Netflix. Great show. It is. Yeah. So every week there's like a, like the Sabbath, whatever. It's like a very much like a very family time. And I was at like this person's house and I saw this guy there and I don't know. Like I just went over to him. I just started talking to him. and um which is like not really done so much you know like you don't really just like go over but he was he was so nice and he was so so sweet and we and we went through a matchmaker after that and i i really really liked him but um i felt like the more we talked and the more i got to know him he wasn't he wasn't as religious as me like he wasn't um what does that mean like what

explain that to me because he still went through a matchmaker yeah didn't like touch or anything like that but like but he was very much part of the jewish orthodox church and familiar with your arrangement and how you do things and it's like he was certainly comfortable with that right and understood that right right so what do you mean by he wasn't as religious as you well i mean it was like an overall it was an overall feel like we're not really like allowed to like listen to like secular music or things like that and like like he definitely would do then he would always like be like testing me like putting it on in the car and like what's considered secular me like I'm honestly shocked that you listen to my podcast are you allowed to like we totally totally I tell my parents that I was

coming on they were like oh my gosh it's super cool go for it okay cool yeah yeah but what is what's secular mean because like okay like mainstream just totally mainstream music like regular music like yeah okay and what about like what's considered a secular show like it's just all shows actually okay so any okay okay maybe that was a wrong word secular maybe meant well no i'm i'm very fascinating it's very fascinating i'm just trying to understand like where you know like you're calling it and saying like okay he i found he wasn't as religious to me I asked, what do that mean? You mentioned, like, he kind of dabbled in secular music.

Yeah. You're not supposed to listen to it. It sounds like you mostly don't. Right. Is music different than, like, all jokes aside, like, you know, a podcast, a main, you know, that talks about sex and dating and talks about music and talks about TV shows and all of these things I'm assuming are outside the purview of what you're supposed to, you know, so where do you draw the line?

Right. Yeah. That's a really good question. actually about drawing the line it's it's not even i think that actually like the secular music i think it's more is that he he identified as someone who that he he wants to like a little bit not not be as rich in those roles and there was there were other examples like he he wanted me he was going to israel for for a week and he invited me to come along and i i know right i know i don't know i I was like, that's like kind of scandalous.

He's like, no, don't worry. We'll sleep in separate, in separate hotels. I was like, but he knows that that's kind of, that was a bit, that was a bit much. But it wasn't even just that. It was his whole dress. Like he, he would dress like not, not like the way like religious guys dressed and everything. Everything he did was just. Well, what did you think about that?

Did you find that exciting or did you find that to be a turnoff? it was both it was both yeah okay and talk to me about the turnoff part well like i'm very very connected to the religion and to the community so like when i was like let's be like seen with him it would like people would always like raise eyebrows and so the turn off is more about your fear about how you two or how you two as a couple and then subsequently you would be accepted in your community with this guy definitely that part but I think it was more was I felt like like the more like I would talk about religion and like my goals and and just everything and he would be like yes like he's like I want like a very religious

girl but I'm not I'm not as connected to it as you are what do you want for yourself what do I want for myself yeah I mean my understanding of most devout orthodox or I mean again I come from a religious background which is um and listen as a new dad as a new husband like i am in my dad family era and i think it's the greatest thing you know if that's something you want as a person not to push anyone's on but like having a family having kids having a partner the most rewarding and and greatest thing anyone can do i am down for that that that being said it seems like you know the you know and more conservative devout orthodox families very very traditional like it like the woman's role is be a mom be a be a wife raise a family you know be the caregiver and and you're very limited to those roles

uh is is that accurate in terms of like what is expected of you and i guess what you want um because when it comes to very devout religion right i think a lot of people what what people struggle with right whether it's as devout as yours and as rigid as yours or maybe say an upbringing like mine, which is still pretty, by considered by most people, very a religious family, not certainly as orthodox as yours. But there's a lot of like what I was raised to want for myself and what I was raised to believe and what I was taught to believe and what, you know, all these values that were instilled in me that are, you know, are important to me, but they're also important me because it's part in my family. And then there's the, as we get to,

older like what we what we realize we want you know and and that struggle between am i doing it for me am i doing it out of shame or guilt am i doing it because i believe in a higher purpose like all these things that people struggle with right you know also like parents have a way of using religion you know all parents are are afraid to like let their kids kind of go as they get an adulthood and i think people who come from religious families like parents will use whatever leverage they have and they can use religion to like make sure that their kids like stay kind of under their um like influence yeah influence i don't know it's like yeah it's this which which is a new parent i empathize with like this idea of you know it won't always be like this you know type of thing

and so you know for you i'm just trying to figure out what what's the part that you're struggling with because i know you keep saying you know my you know my religion's really important to me but like which part like what what do you what is a perfect forgetting about what anyone wants of you your parents god himself or your friends but if god said what i want is for you to decide what would you decide for yourself in life yeah i mean like what just paint me a picture of your of your of your life regardless of what any you know god says hey yeah whatever i just know that what I want for you, and you can do no wrong, is for you to decide what your life looks like. And for me, that will make me the happiest. What would that be? I would, I think I would

want nothing more than to get married and have kids. Okay. And then, but, okay, but what does that look like? You know, what? Does it look like? Yeah. You know, you could have, you know, there are families who have kids who both parents work, right? They're, you know, their family has kids where the mom works and the dad has a stay-at-home mom. There's so many different family dynamics, you know, what is like a day in the life look like, you know, are, you know, how are you raising your kids, you know? Yeah. I mean, I would, I would want to be wealthy. I would want Okay. Great. I would want him to be making like most of the money, but I still would want to contribute and have my own and and continue i love my work i teach i teach first grade and i love it

like every moment so you want to still teach yeah definitely so want to teach i um and and i would want like to like live for that higher purpose like and what does that mean it would be um like elevating every single, every small action that I do for God. Okay. What does that mean? Does that mean? It means, you know, I'm not trying, I'm just like, I want, you know, at some point you have to, I think the challenge you have is so much, so many your answers are just

kind of, it kind of reminds me of the story. And this is, again, very, very interesting to me and very fascinating. I think, you know, religion is such a fascinating element. But when I was in, we used to call it CCD, Catholicism, like, it was CCD. It was like the after school for Catholic kids, and we'd go and we'd learn about, I guess, the Bible. Did you connect to it or no? Oh, no. I was just like, I hated it, whatever.

Oh, really? Well, I mean, like, listen, I came from a family where, like, a lot of, like, we said the rosary as a family, like, we prayed together as a family. Like, to me, like, what my parents did in terms of instilling, like, God and in religion into our childhoods was more than anything like than an after school church program was. was kind of, I thought, silly. Right. Right.

So, but there was this kid I went. His name was T.J. And we would have like a little home. We'd have homework, right? And we'd have questions. And T.J., I'd look over. T.J. would, he would just write the end, every answer was this God.

God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God. He wouldn't read the question. He would just write God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God, God. Oh, gosh. Am I sounding like that? No. Yeah. I mean, like, a little bit.

In a sense that, like, it's more like you're not, when I'm asking you some of these questions, you're not entirely sure how to answer it. And you're only answer it by saying, like, listen, I just want to make God happy. You know, I just want to, I want to serve God. I'm not sure I know what that means. I'm not sure if you know exactly what that means, right? As in adulthood, it's just a lot easier when we're kids and we grow up and our parents teacher these things and our rabbis teach us these things about like how to listen to God, how to follow God, like follow the rules, right? Like, and you're just like, okay, cool, if I'm going to do this because I want to be a good kid. And then, you know,

know, this guy that you met, right, that you had an interest in who's like, he's just more like, yeah, I mean, I like, I like, I like religion and I like my family and I like God, but like, I don't know, like, I'm just going to, like, bet on the fact that, like, if I listen to this song, I'm not going to burn hell and I like this song. And so, like, whatever, like, I'm just going to do this. And I'm not going to live with the shame and guilt of whatever has been, like, instilled in me. And I'm going to, I'm going to fly to Israel and I'm going to visit it. I'm going to ask this girl I like if she wants to come. And if she doesn't want to come, that's fine. But if she does want to come, I'm like, well, you know, I'm not going to, I don't want to pressure her or force her to do anything she doesn't want to do, but like, we're just going to be two adults going on a trip. And like, I don't see their harm in that. And like, whatever. And he is, he is thinking for himself, right? And he is, he is walking his own path. And he is deciding, it sounds like, that he is taking what he has learned as a child, you know, and what are values we were instilled in him. And he is starting to make decisions for himself and, and, and, and, and, and,

his own set of rules. And, you know, the day he meets his maker, he's betting on the fact that, like, he's going to get it right, so to speak, right? I don't know. Like, I guess that's kind of what I'm doing. Like, you know, my views on religion and God, like, you know, not to get into that, obviously have changed. But, like, overall, I like to think I believe in a higher power. And I certainly, as I've said, you know, to other people, like, I live my life with the, like, I don't know what I believe in these days. but I live my life that, like, I am, I'm prepared to be held accountable for my choices if it comes to that, you know? And so that, that's how I live my life, you know. I don't know

when the day comes where whoever shows up at the early gates or whatever, whatever God looks like to, you know, but I'm assuming, I'm prepared to be held accountable for my choices. And that's kind of how I'm living my life. As I get older and the more and more I get older and the more I have like my own thing, like right now, my focus in life is raising my family, doing what I think is right. And I have my moral compass. I am not checking in with my priest or my parents and asking them, what do you think I should do? What's the, what, how does, you know, I am not really asking myself on a day to day basis, what would God do here? I'm just, you know, I'm making decisions based off what I think is the right thing to do. And like, a lot of these are just more like, you know,

you know as river gets older right now she's starting to like not listen to us how nally and i are talking about how do we deal with that right i don't know we're just making choices you know and i don't want to say god isn't part of that conversation i mean we're not as either of us are not that religious of people but like you know what i'm saying like the best way to describe is this guy you're talking about talking to he is making choices for himself and you are you seem to be struggling to do that because your default is always like, what am I supposed to do? And what is, what is someone who loves God? What would she do? You know, and what, what is someone who's really devout to their relations? What would

she do? And I feel like, maybe I'm wrong, that that's how you ask yourself these questions, as opposed to what do I want to do? Oh, yeah. Well, okay, fine. So there's a couple of, there's a couple of things with the guy. So I, first I reached out to the matchmaker and I was like, oh, I also want to answer with the other thing is, for sure I have a massive super ego where I'm like constantly, it's like constantly buzzing in my head of like, what should I do? Was I right? Was I wrong?

Was I this? Was I that? Which it isn't, it isn't. It's a little bit heavy on that end. But with the guy, I was trying to tell the math. matchmaker, like, can we just talk about religion at all? Because he, every time we tried to talk about religion, he would, like, somehow would, like, circumvent. Like, I don't know. It just would never happen. And she did. She, she talked to him. And he's like, yeah, I totally,

I was totally, like, trying to, I'm worried if we talk about religion and it will ruin the relationship. So I was definitely circumventing it. And every time she brought it up, I made sure to quickly switch the topic. Anyway, On the 11th date, which is honestly, which is even kind of late in our community, like, it's even been going out that much. But I, like, we started talking about religion. And he said, he's like, I don't want you to ask me the nitty gritties of my religious observance. So he said that to you. He said that to me.

So I said to him, I'm like, okay, okay, I get it. And he's like, I just like, if you're okay with me, we could get married. but like if not then then not so i said to him i was like okay fine so i don't need to know exactly where where you're holding but like is this at all like a goal for you like like do you is it are there any goals spiritually you have anything he's like no so he's not really he's not really all religious at all. Well, I mean, I think he, I mean, he said he's religious, so. He's not acting religious.

What he's acting like, again, base off of what you're telling me is that he's certainly, he's playing the part in your community. He's going through the matchmaker. I mean, he definitely sounds like a guy who's hooked up with a girl before. Really? Do you think so? I don't know anything about this guy. he is a guy, religious or not.

You really think so? I didn't, I was like, someone told me that too, and I just couldn't believe it. I'm basing this off of very little information, so I would not go off of, you know. Oh my gosh. This is just a guess. It's a very simplified guess based off the fact that he's a guy. And there have been popes back in the day who have, you know, stepped out of line, so to speak. You know what I'm saying?

Like, humans are humans. Two, like, he's clearly not that religious, right? And as someone who knows what it's like to grow up very religious and to have like slowly grown away from it, like, temptation like gets the best of us. And he is stretching his limits of like, of, you know, of what he's willing to do outside of what he's been raised and told not to do. And usually in those cases, you know, sex of some kind or emotional or physical intimacy is a very appealing thing for a young man to want to look into or try. and it's certainly exciting and it feels taboo and anything you know i don't care if you're religious or not you know if it's taboo it's a little titillating and a little exciting and he has clearly shown a willingness and an interest to like you know test those limits and i don't know like

it just makes a lot of sense that he didn't try to like touch me or anything well he's because you're very religious he knows that you know i listen this is based off nothing so i wouldn't accuse this guy of anything but my point is is he's playing the part right he's you know but at the end of the day he's he's not it's this not a priority for him right he wants to you know he wants to have a wife he wants his family he wants his community and he wants to marry someone who like him like wants to put on severance at home and watch it with his wife and like not tell anyone okay so yeah and and I know like for him like he has like this very you know he he doesn't see religion the same way because his parents were a lot more strict with him and he found a very constraining so I and

he's like he's massively into therapy like he he goes twice a week for eight years like very is that something like are you is being orthodox are they into therapy? Totally yeah I'm in there Okay. Yeah. Yeah. They're like by a therapist or like a rabbi? That's a good question. No, no. By an actual therapist. Okay. Okay. All right. My father's actually a psychologist. Oh, really? Wow. Yeah. And does he work with people outside of? Definitely. Really? Okay. Interesting. Well, how would your dad answer this question? I mean, have you talked to him about this stuff?

Oh, yeah. What does he say? He didn't like the guy. So that, he liked him. until that point. Then he's like, this guy, he has like this idea that enjoying life is like the way to live life because he was like, he was like very into like his cars and his this and his dad just enjoying life. And he's like, he's not willing to put in the work in anything. So what I mean, does your dad doesn't think you should enjoy life? He thinks I should enjoy life. Yeah. That's, he was, he liked the guy. So, so the religious part. How does your dad balance the, you know, as a psychologist who works with people outside of his religion, how does he see the world between,

he must recognize that his way of life and his values are unique and aren't shared by many people outside of his religion. And how does he, you know, and so many of your rules, again, are very, very rigid. How does he reconcile that in terms of judging, Like it, you know, like, because again, like talking about secular music, right? Like, like, I'm guessing you didn't watch Love Island. Right.

Right. Like, so like, let's assume you, for whatever reason, you would just, one day you watched Love Island and you were like, I don't know, I'm just a dick to do it. And it's just like really good. And like, whatever, I know I'm not supposed to be watching, but like, ah, yolo. What would your parents think of that? Oh, they wouldn't, they would be like, you know, sometimes you need to enjoy yourself. Okay.

And they would say, you know, maybe, maybe it's a better thing you could do with your, like, they wouldn't, they wouldn't judge me. Okay. And do you, what, does your gut tell you that both your parents have their own little thing that they do that maybe they shouldn't be doing that they don't, like, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, in my experience, when it comes to like the more, like, I just, you know, like I was raised, like, again, raising, when you're raised Catholic, the core principle of like that, like how I was raised is this more like, you know, your time here on earth is, is, is, has a purpose. And that purpose is to get to. heaven, right? And it is about kind of suffering through, you know, it's, yeah, it's a, you know, suffering is a good thing because it like earns your way to heaven in a way. And so like, you know, it justifies like hard times or whatever. I don't know. Well, I don't know what was like? I don't think that's the belief. I don't think so. Okay. No, no. I'm definitely not like with my parents like they're very much like you have to really enjoy yourself and and even yeah like

they're always like my father's always telling me my my mother also they're always like you know get yourself all the clothes you need get yourself everything you want like they're very much into that but um it just I just feel like I'm kind of stuck in this like bubble in a way because here everyone else already got married everyone else is like having their kids and this and that and then I don't know like honestly like I don't know really what to do with my like at this point because I'm trying to get married I so badly want to get to that next seat and yeah I'm like working on myself like career wise emotionally spiritually like everything and like I know you also kind of waited a while to so you got married yeah yeah it just I don't I don't

I don't know what to do with myself like honestly like what do you mean about like do you live with your parents? Yeah, yes. That's also part of the community thing. You don't you look at your parents so you get married. Okay. What do you mean by you don't know what to do with your, like, do you have friends? Right. Yeah, but basically everyone's married. Everyone's married. Yeah, I mean, it's just like, your, your lifestyle and religion is so, like, unique and it's hard for me to tell you what you think you should think and feel. Because what you're describing what I'm hearing, it's like, it has like hints of like a very, you know, it's like, it's not prearranged marriages. Like, you very much have a say, you know, you have not been liking these people you go on a date

with or you've been match made with, but it's still a very rigid process. You're not exactly going on the app, so to speak. You're not opening yourself up to like just anyone. You're dating within your religion. Right. Just out of curiosity, the other men that you were introduced to, what were some of the reasons that you didn't dig them? I don't know.

like every guy something else like it just been it's been awful yeah like each yeah like physically you're not like what like i'm assuming some you weren't physically attracted to some of them but i'm not i'm not even so like it's so funny because i listen to the podcast and everyone's like oh my gosh you know um he has to be six feet i'm i'm laughing because like jewish men are so short i'm like yeah i go out with like five foot three guys five foot four guys like it's totally fine for me um the height but like Yeah, sometimes it's like, yeah, I don't know. You're describing me, you're a perfect guy with forgetting about assuming he's religious. Assuming he's religious?

Like, not about his religion, about how he is as a partner to you, assuming he's meeting all your religious needs. Yeah. So someone, like, very, like, emotionally in tune and smart, intelligent, like, driven and not someone, I don't really like the guys that are super expressive and, like, telling me all their emotions. but like someone like a little more contained so they could kind of balance me a little bit. Okay. How old are the men that you're dating? 25 to 34. Okay.

I honestly think that that a lot of this is kind of like my own father's fault because like I really want someone very similar to him. He's like very, he's very much in both worlds in a way, you know? What do you mean? And he's very like kind of like what you said. he can he can be in like the mainstream world and he he charges tons for for 45 minute session with him he like yeah he he he does he's very he's a massive psychoanalyst and he's amazing um but he's also incredibly religious like he wakes up like super super early to pray to to learn the Torah and everything and i and i kind of want that balance it actually you know like nick you really reminds me of

my father a little bit like he has that like contained presence a little bit you know yeah i mean it's well one comes a little bit with age and wisdom i'd be curious if your dad if you ask your dad was he always like this what he would say i'm curious or or just more like what was your dad like when he was younger you know as a young man also like i just i you know forgetting about orthodox religion i think as a society we are expecting less and less of our young men um and and And I think young men are maturing even slower than they were. Yeah. And so are you noticing that with also the men in your religion?

Are they also just like a little emotionally immature? Yeah. And do you feel like this guy that you liked? Do you think he is unique in his, not as religious, even though he's playing the part of being in the religion? Or is he the most honest about it? I thought he was like really unique. I always think all the guys are super religious.

And when you get to know them that it shows? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I don't usually get, it usually doesn't go past like a date or two for each guy. Like this guy like went pretty far. Okay. What did you like about this guy? He's just, he was very warm, very like emotionally in tune. And he just, he, he, like, every time I would be like nervous about something, he'd be like, no, like, there's nothing you can ever do that would

ever turned me off like you are so like amazing and he he really had that amazing presence to him yeah so other than the fact that he's not religious he really dug him yeah i really liked him i really did and basically we're just like can we have a religious a you know a faith-based relationship he was kind of like not really so i so i said to him so he's like yeah like are you like okay with me like that i was like how could i be okay with you like not even having like one goal or anything like just something and he said fine I see he's like I guess you're he's like I guess you're breaking up with me and then I was like no I'm not breaking up with you like when you say one goal are you talking about like is his in life or like in his religion in his religion like what does he

do for work even like he wasn't like he made good money but like he wasn't like ambitious about it like his goal was to kind of enjoy his life so I said to him so he's like you know I'm all I'm like I'm totally fine with you, like, where you're at. But, like, if you're not going to give me that inch, like, that's, that's kind of your decision. Like, you're the one kind of breaking out with me. And he's like, yeah. And then he started crying and everything. And he was like, and then that was it.

That was, and when was that? That was like three months ago. You haven't spoken them since? No, because you're not allowed. Like, you can't. Once you break out, you're not allowed to. Yeah. Well, he's like, he's following those rules.

Yeah. Yeah. and then what's your dating pool look like like well kind of excited i'm going on a date tomorrow if it's another guy which i also picked him out um do you like do you live in a big enough city whether you have enough options yeah yeah there's like it's there's like a lot of options yeah it's like do you know if you're like one of the more like i don't how does your community view you what do you mean well you're i mean assuming on some level your your community is small relative to like the world and like you know the society in general has kind of lost touch with

any sense of community in general but like the obviously a very positive aspect of religion is like you you know a lot of people get go back to church just because it's like we need we need a community right and church and faith and religion provides that even if you're not that religious it's like it's a great place that you know don't it's juice after after mass you know um but like in your religion you know religious or not people gossip you know and moms love to talk about their kids and daughters and here you are seeming like a very young eligible young woman only 26 in my mind but I'm and maybe in in religious purposes you're just like I'm over the hell but you might you know like but you must be considered like someone who you know you're a beautiful person you know like

I'm imagining there must be like what's your are people not talking about you I honestly, I have no idea. Okay, that's probably better for the bottom. I have no idea. I have no idea. Like, yeah, but definitely like my brother is like always like, you have to keep a really good name and like, like, you can't, you can't do anything to out there.

I was like, okay, yeah, don't worry. I'm not going to. Like, what does that mean? It's like. What's too out there? Like one time I told him that I like talked about therapy with a guy on the seat. He's like, why would you ever say that? Like, you're going to ruin your name.

Like, I was like, oh, okay, fine. Okay, I won't say that. Your dad's a therapist. No, that was my brother. My brother doesn't have a therapist. Oh, right. My dad is. But why wouldn't it ruin your name, you talking about therapy?

I don't know, honestly. Because maybe like you have like mental health issues or something. Like, I don't know. Well, that's kind of my point. In the sense that like, I think religion is and can be a beautiful thing for people, right? I myself have seen some of the negative side. of religion and how people weaponize it and use it for their own ungodly ways. And then often, I think the intent of how people use religion is good, but like, you know,

you're, for example, your brother, like it seems like it is your best interest in mind. Here he is like, oh my God, don't ruin your name by talking about therapy. You don't even know what he means by that. And he seems well-intentioned. And I think that's kind of sometimes when it comes to really devout religions. and that's why I think as an adult, it's important to just, at some point, you have to have your moral compass that may very much be dictated greatly by your faith and religion and how you were raised, but it's got to come from you. You have to decide for yourself.

Your brother, who, you know, I guess on some levels, he has his opinion. I guess don't talk about therapy. And he was passing on his beliefs that were unique to him onto you. And I think sometimes if you don't have yours, it just kind of gets very confusing of who you're supposed to be and what you're supposed to follow. And I think it's just really important to just know what you think as a person who it sounds like you've had great parents and they've raised you up. And now it's time for you as a 26 year old adult to like make her choices for herself and be accountable for those choices and just in general forgetting about dating something you need you know I would say focus on because like otherwise you're just always kind of questioning yourself yeah that's that's definitely

what I was talking about with my therapist that I have to kind of have my own my own thoughts about these things like like there is also like just this guy tomorrow that I'm going to go out with I think he seems really really nice but he also is a little bit less religious but we'll see what happens there yeah i'm just not i'm not surprised to hear that because i just think it's like religion in general is under fire by the world right like it's not you know there's that and then i think more orthodox it's just like temptation is just everywhere i mean i don't know like do you even have a smartphone. So, yeah, that's actually a really good question. Just to last year, I switched over to a smartphone. And like how, I mean, but like a smartphone is basically a gateway to the secular world,

right? Is it right? That's all it is. It's just a, it's a device to everything you shouldn't mess with. Right. Right. I'm guessing you can, there's apps for Orthodox Jews too, but. I think so. Not really. Okay. Well, then like, You know what I'm saying? So it's just like, how do you, and I'm not here to question anything. I just like, I guess my point is like you are, you are on some level, and I'm sure your parents are too, your parents are definitely making choices for themselves. That part of you wouldn't like if I, if I said, well, what happens if you were to watch Love Island and they would tell you like, oh, you know, I guess like enjoy yourself. Like that mantra, right?

Like to me, that's a recognition that like even the most devout. and God-faring Jewish people Orthodox, like, you know, have their things that maybe they technically shouldn't do, but it's not hurting anyone, and they get a little joy out of it, so like, whatever. I think that response is a recognition

that, like, everyone kind of has their thing. I find it so hard to believe that everyone has their thing. I think, like, I actually think I'm, like, in the school I teach in, I'm considered like one of like the less religious. And is that silly based off of what, that you're not married yet? No, no. In terms of like dress.

Okay. Dress and like how they look and just even like, yeah, the fact like I'm on here. Also just yeah, even a question about like, let's say like you and your wife. So here it was, you know, you met this amazing like this star person. and I'm sure it was hard for you to get over, like, let's say the age gap. So is there like a certain, you know, element of like when you find someone so amazing that you, you kind of like shake it up a little bit. I mean, you have, you definitely have to make compromises.

I've, Nellie and I have both had to make a lot of compromises, you know. We're not all that self-conscious about how we present to the world. We'd like to share a lot of things about our life. we definitely don't share everything about our life and like we certainly don't want to paint this picture of like this perfect couple like we are we think we have a perfect relationship because again we work so hard at it but we've both like we had to make we have we had to make sacrifices and compromises are because at the end of the day we we chose each other you know we're not very religious right so like you know my parents my parents were introduced by

a priest. Their marriage was centered around God. And that was a core principle of their relationship and a big part of my upbringing. And I had a great childhood, right? And while mine and Natalie's religion isn't centered around God, it's centered around our family and each other. And that is kind of our North Star. And so, yeah, I guess it's like you need a North Star. And for you, It's like you're, you want that religion to be your North Star and your, in your, in your relationship, which I think makes a lot of sense. And you're meeting men who maybe don't want that, I guess. And most of them I do want that. But then I feel like I like the guys that are a little bit more open in a way.

What is the thing that you like about them? What are the things that you don't like about the religious men that you're meeting? Like, is there a? Like, I just, I find it just. very hard to talk to them like they're little they're weird maybe like i don't know like it's just like i'm like thinking about like some of the conversations like i have yeah i'm trying to thread the needle here and explain us because obviously i want to be very respectful to your your religion i just and you i again i'm curious what your dad would say about this because he must recognize that it's

it's it's hard it's got to be harder and harder and harder today to be a a devout Orthodox Jewish person, man or woman. It's just, it is, you know? Like, I mean, 50 years ago, there were just a lot more religious people. So whether they shared your religion, they understood the concept of, like, putting God first in their life and having more discipline in their life when it came to, like, having that balance. And discipline is not a core principle.

I think a lot of young people are learning these days. I mean, you're dating early 30-year-old men, so it's not good if they're that young. They're not like Gen Z. But I just think it's very easy to get access to the outside world for anyone, including Orthodox people. And I think the people who have been able to do that, there's, again, whether this is fair or not,

my assumption would be that they're so close. closed off to the outside world, which is why they're so religious, but that closed off and that disconnect is like they're just, they're not operating like, I don't know, I don't want to say normal, but like there's a little, there's a little something like not connecting the dots where it's just like, the only reason they're so religious is because they don't know anything better or they don't know anything else. And so their devotion comes from knowing nothing else. Your dad is like the literal opposite, right? Like you mentioned that balance, right?

He is in the outside world. He faces that temptation and he chooses not to, for the most part, I'm assuming, but I guess he has his thing. You know, you know what I'm saying? He has his balance, whatever that is. And he can go through life as a man who like can just be a normal person, you know, and does that make any sense? I don't know no no it makes it makes me like and you're meaning men that like you know have seen a little bit of the outside world and and unlike I guess your dad have have been like yeah I'm I'm I'm digging this kind of thing yeah yeah that's it I would really be curious

how much have you talked to your parents about how they were in their 20s outside of like God yeah yeah no I did talk to them they also had a hard time binding, binding each other. Okay, yeah. It wouldn't shock me if your dad, was your dad, did your dad ever have a period in his life where he was a little less religious? Yeah, but he wouldn't, he didn't like, like touch anyone, like, but like. Yeah, I don't mean about whatever.

Maybe it was music. No, like, yeah, like he said like, you know, in his 20s, he kind of felt a little bit. He, it was hard for him to be in the same level of religion and, you know, like, You know, because they pray three times a day, the men and like all that. So he said it was very hard for him. Yeah. I think that's normal, I guess is what I'm saying. And I just wonder if I'm not, I don't know how helpful I'm being here.

But it makes a lot of sense that men in your community, the type of guy you're looking for is a type of guy who grows up in your community, devout, religious, you know, believes in the same thing you believe in, and will most likely probably at some point in their, 20s, late 30s, lose their religion a little bit, dabble in the outside secular world a little bit, right? Be tempted and then find their way back to their faith in God. And, you know, but like that losing their religion allows them to kind of like, I don't know, just learn a little bit about the world, understand it, know how to include it, but not be immersed by it, you know, and so they feel a little more normal as opposed to like, you know, a caged tiger who's

never really seen the light of day. And I feel like a lot of- Yeah, I definitely feel like some of the guys feel that way. Like I feel like they're like you're going to date with them and they don't know what to do with themselves. They have all this like extra energy that they're just like-containing. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because like a lot, a lot about the way there's so, there's so many threads that potentially in layers to pull back here. but like a lot about devout religion is about suppression and right i mean it just is and and that can and how that's channel how that's channeled right could be your dad sounds like a man who's been able to find that balance he hit it's it doesn't maybe feel like suppression to him it felt it feels like

sacrifice and devotion and the ability to like channel that healthy in a healthy way where like maybe young men who have only just been told what not to do and then like just kind of operate from a place of fear so they don't try their things and they're just they're suppressed you know and they don't know how to you know channel their emotions and their feelings and they you know they don't know any better so they're you know by the time they show up across the table from you you're just like what am I this for real like and then you meet the guys who are a little bit more normal and they're like, I don't know if I'm ready for this whole like hardcore devotion thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's yeah, you did it. You summed it up really, really well.

It's, yeah, I don't even think about it. That's the reason that's why I don't like the more religious guys. Not that some of them aren't like relaxed and not like a cage tiger, but some of them it's like I don't even know like I'm just like where are you coming from like what's going on here yeah no that makes sense it's actually happening like I don't what's disappointing with the last guys because like it had he just been like listen I'm if I'm being totally honest I'm definitely like I question my religion more than maybe I used to as a young man but he said that I would have married him. I would have. Like, he didn't, he didn't give me any talking things. Like, nothing. Yeah. And if, and if he would have said, like, I just want to be honest about that,

but, like, obviously, I want to raise our kids and I want us to have a faith-based life. And I want to, like, have God be, like, a centerpiece in our marriage. But, like, at the same time, just to be totally honest with you, like, I'm, I'm going to watch Love Island. And sometimes I just need to shake it up and and be a bad boy. I don't know. I feel like, yeah, you would have been down for that. Yeah, I would have. Yeah, I would have done it. So maybe that that's your balance. You know, that's, you know, that's what you. Like, you don't think I made a mistake with that last guy. No, because he gave you nothing. Right. You know. Like, there was just, right, right, it was just dead. Because you do, like, religion's important to you. That's a non-negotiable for you,

right? Like, you, you, it sounds like talking to you, you will meet, you're willing to, to marry someone who, like I just described, is, like, honest about the fact that, like, they question their religion more than they feel like they should sometimes. They have done things and dabbled and tried things out that are, quote, unquote, you know, they're not supposed to do or against their religion. And they've, they've made some choices that maybe the rest of their community might frown upon, but, like, you're the woman I'm, I'm going to get engaged to. So I'm going to, I'm going to tell you everything. And I hope that you accept me. But I've been bad, so quote, you know, and, and, but like, I definitely want us to raise our kids

in, and, and, and, and, and, and, I want us to challenge each other about our faith without judging each other and shaming each other and just find that balance. Um, and then, you know, that sounds like you're down for that. Right. Yeah. I am. You know, there you go. I mean, and then how do you, do you ever with these men, like, so did my last take, like, what I'll leave you with is if you meet that type of guy, like this last guy. And again, I don't think you made a mistake, but like, I guess what do you offer, do you meet, do you meet them at their level, so to speak? I'm so confused. I'm confusing you. Yeah. Okay, sorry. Well, if, if you're meeting a guy who, like, says what I just said, right? That's how you presents. Do you offer up anything to relate to

them? Right. Yeah. You know, in terms of things that technically you shouldn't be doing or do you ever question your religion. Do you ever have doubts about things? Do you dabble and secular things from time to time that maybe you shouldn't do? You know, that's what I'm saying meeting them at their level. Because if someone's going to come to you and say, hey, if I can be totally honest, this is how I feel. And you're like, well, I don't relate. I'm just, I love God. And everything I've learned is like, that's what I want. And I'm hardcore. And that's who I am. Like, that's going to be harder for that guy to feel accepted or like that you're a match and you're going to have to meet him at his level at your comfort level if that makes it yeah yeah no no i i think i i mean maybe

i could do more of it yeah i could do more of that i think i do i like usually it's not a problem usually the guys end up sharing way too much with me um that's usually what happens um but I mean, I would, I don't know what it'd be like to have to try to have six dates and then get engaged. I would, I would, I would, I would tell you everything too. I'd be like, all right, well, there's no secrets here. Like, yeah, yeah, they usually just like, just like, just like their entire life's come out. Like, it's just that's just what, I think that's just what happens. You know, it's interesting talking to you and I, we do have to wrap it up, but like you present as someone, and again, this is maybe just an unfair stereotype.

Yeah. But you and I, and again, I'm very comfortable and familiar with very, very. religious people. But you, you sound like a normal person. You know, you all, you, you come across as a woman who is at least familiar with how like the normal secular world dates. And you have some of the same standards and desires and, and particular interests that other women also have, coupled with this very religious background, you know. And so it's not surprising to me that you're having a hard time finding your very religious equal. Yes.

Wow. You nailed it. Yeah. Like, I feel like if you were like, you know what? I'm going to go and date. Like,

I'm going to go on the apps. You would find a lot of men interested in dating you, whether you would want to date them or not. But I don't think a lot of men would be like, who's this weird religious freak? Oh my gosh. Wow. Thank you.

Well, that's. I, I wouldn't know. I know you wouldn't know. But I also feel like that. Even the fact that you said, I was beautiful like you have no idea like I'm like totally keeping that comment with me because

no one ever like no one tells me that like a guy's not allowed to say that on a date so like the fact that you said that like you you you probably you step outside I mean there's a certain level objective like you know you're you're an attractive person no thank you no it just I'm gonna definitely keep that comment with me because like nobody ever said what the guys you're on dates with they can't are they not allowed to say that's crazy no no they're not they're not allowed it's coming my looks at all. Yeah, it's just like I, I don't know how five of them been much helpful, but like, yeah, there's, you guys have a lot of rules that are just hard, hard even for me to comprehend how to, you know, because you're trying to strike that balance

between, hey, listen, your parents are going to pick your husband and you're just going to make it work kind of life, like in a prearranged marriage versus like, you know, the rest of the which is like, hey, go find what you think your best fit is. And the world's gotten pickier and pickier. And now we have all these apps and everyone has all these options. And everyone's just like, ah, I just like, I want to pick the perfect person. And everyone's like spending their entire adult life waiting for perfect when they kind of just need to pick someone who's like a nice match to them and then figure out how to make it work. You know, because that's like that's how, you know, it works.

But like you're you're trying to do both. yes um and you you you you have to you i guess i'll leave you to this you have to find your bounds too is that it's it's not settled yet in me you're saying my own balance it's i'm not convinced you know exactly what you want for yourself i think you have an idea of what your life looks like but in terms of the day to day like you know i just think as human beings even the most religious people like have everyone has their vices every you know you have a wandering mind like what are what are your fan i don't need to hear them but like what are your fantasies like when you're you know what i'm saying and like these like you're not like you're not

really that's also a rule you're not really supposed to have like but it doesn't matter what you're supposed to have you're a human being and you're you know what i'm saying your dad has thoughts and your mom's mind wonders they might come they might catch themselves and go oh nope but like you know what i'm saying that that part of you that has curiosity and ask questions about the and the meaning of life and like is is is seduced by whatever thing they're not supposed to watch like you know like human beings like you're a human being and so human beings like have to deal with all these emotions you know and and you're a human being that's a part of this community and it's important to you and you're trying to strike that balance of a very um historic and a very

ancient and a very old religion and a very modern time. And that's a challenge. It is. But I think it's really important for you to find more and more about like your core principles and your North Star and and how you include God into your life rather than the answer to all this question is God. Does that make sense? No, it makes really like a lot of sense.

And like I appreciate you taking the time to really figure that out with me. all right well hopefully this is helpful i'm very fascinated if you if you ever want to call for a follow up we'd love an update on your your dating life we'd love to follow your story and your journey thank you yeah i'd love to yeah i mean like the most i know about the orthodox jewish religion is that show orthodox on on netflix which was like popular in the pandemic it was right is it is it sounding similar well a lot of it i mean like that that that that paints a very again like that even that even that show taught you know there's there that show recognized some of the unhealthy aspects of that community and religion i don't know how how accurate that stuff was but every religion has

their dark side you know and every religion like again a lot of it is based off suppression and shame a lot of it is how it is interpreted and how it is done you know like no no i i think people could take religion and and and and make it the best thing or make it the worst thing exactly yeah Yeah, it's how you take it. Yeah. But yeah. Thank you so much. Try doing, I got to think you got to find your things that you do for yourself,

even if you're not supposed to do it. Okay. Okay. I don't want to be like, you know, and influence your life negatively or like, I don't know if your parents listen to this. But I just, you got to find your, your dad has his own moral compass. I'm convinced by that. Oh, yeah.

Oh, my gosh. If you wouldn't be, you, you're literally like it. Like, I mean, I always tell that to my father. He's like, okay, sounds cool. I don't know if I don't know. No, no, he's very similar. Like, and like, yeah, he just is, you know, like, he just, he gives it as it is. And yeah.

Well, yeah, but like that your dad's ability to be a very devout religious man is that he has conviction, conviction in himself. Right. And he is following his compass that is based off of his religion. He doesn't question himself. And he is, I'm guessing. prepared to be held accountable for whenever he meets his maker. I think you make a lot of decisions based on what you think you should do.

Yes. And I don't think your dad spends a lot of time questioning that. I think he knows what he should do and he does it. Okay. All right. You should channel your dad. Okay. Thank you so much for that.

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I'm 29 years old. And my due date is the day after my best friend's wedding. Black's your friend. Yeah. So actually, what are your options? Well, what can I help you with?

Like to decide if you should like skip the delivery or what? Like that's obviously not an option. But I actually wound up having a dream. And it was. horribly, right? So I panicked and I called her the next day because I was like, I can't, I can't keep it to myself anymore. It's like, it's harboring itself in other ways now. So I went ahead and I told her. And she actually took it way better than I thought she was going to. How'd you think she was going to take it? I thought she was going to, like, in my dream,

she like didn't want to be my friend anymore. She was like, you did this on purpose, like made it sound like I was malicious. And I was, I was just devastated. Is this a healthy friendship? up or yes it really is like I don't know I just am an anxious person and I don't like to let people down or disappoint them so I think it's just like a me thing but you know she took it well she was like you know it sucks I'm sad is in the dream or in reality no in real life in real life she was like I wish you could be there like I hope that's how it works out like maybe you deliver three weeks early and can still try to like just be a guest and I was like yeah like that you know that's best case scenario are you supposed to be a maid of honor and or a bride's

made. I'm supposed to be a bridesmaid and my daughter, who is two is supposed to be her flower girl. Can your daughter still go? Yes. So I talk to my in-laws and my in-laws live like two hours away from where the wedding's going to be. And they offered to take her so that she can still be a part of it. Honestly, that seems like a great thing. Is this your second child? This will be my second. Okay. Yeah. I, you know, there's always like, oh, you know, how do you hand, like what's the, you know, that transition from one to two kids and right now your whole world is your daughter right and now it's supposed to be something else and this will give your daughter like a moment she'll be she'll probably feel really cool and she'll be the flower girl and it like it's it's actually like from a timing

standpoint in that regard as it relates to like giving her something your daughter to focus on and while you're you're focused on your newborn and you're not feeling guilt about what your daughter's doing you know that she's like having an exciting moment she'll be excited to talk to you about and like kind of cool. Yeah, that's, you know, that's what I'm hoping for. I'm hoping that she doesn't have like a complete meltdown without me. She's only been away from me once. I'm a stay at home mom.

So like I don't have a ton of time away from her. So that's, yeah, best case scenario, it's like great experience for her. And, you know, she still gets to have her flower girl. I just may not be there. How many months, how many months away is your due date? It is, I guess, like seven, eight. I don't know. I'm due in March.

So, okay. So you have some time to one. just one you know just maybe create a little not great distance between your daughter but like i'm sure you know like just you know build independence and confidence yeah slowly but surely you know like we are very active in rivers life and we're you know we're Natalie is i guess essentially a stay at home mom but like we have very busy lives and we have cool opportunities and we are lucky enough to have you know grandmas and and friends be like help with child care and things like that but the most we've left River for is three nights.

First it was one night, then it was two nights. And it was, you know, and it's like, but so, you know, a little bit here or there.

And I, you know, it's not easy for Natalie. I'm always, you know, but it's like this is, she, she learns that we're coming.

It's good for them. Yeah. She learns that we come back and things like that. So, you know, something to be mindful of if you're worried about, you know, your daughter's ability to handle that.

Now it's like another, it's a goal. to try it out. Work towards that. Absolutely. Okay. Well, I have a whole other layer to this. So the bride took it fine, right?

She was like, happy for you, sucks for me, but it's going to be okay in the end. So I called her maid of honor, which was also my maid of honor. Like, we're in this tight knit group of friends. And she essentially told me that I should have waited for weeks and that it was, She didn't say I was selfish, but, like, that's how it made me feel, like, insinuated that a decision. What do you should have waited four weeks? That I shouldn't have gotten pregnant, that my husband and I should have been more careful. That is an insane thing.

Yeah. Yeah, it was not fun. So, like. But, like, also, like, that's just, you know, you have to just understand that's an insane thing for her to say. And she's just a hundred percent wrong. I'm glad that you said that. Because as, I mean, anybody else that I've, like, talked to you about it is like, I can't believe she said that to you. But like.

I mean, it's so difficult to have a kid. It's such a blessing to get pregnant and begin with. So many families struggle with it to sit there and decide that, you know, you're doing family planning around like nothing. Like, there's nothing. No one, no one else really matters. I don't know. That's my opinion. it's your family and like, you know, like it all, you don't, yeah, I mean, this is the insane thing.

Also, because, like, you don't know, you know, you didn't know you were going to get pregnant, you know. No. And we, my husband and I had taught, like, we have been wanting another one for about a year now, but we decided that we were going to start trying after my daughter turned two, which she turned to like literally a few weeks ago. so we wound up getting pregnant just like a little bit before like what we were already planning and my friends already knew that that that was something like my husband and I had been talking about something that we were going to start doing so to me it shouldn't have even been that shocking that it happened even if it happened sooner than what was expected so how did you leave with what did she actually say I sent a message or I sent like a screenshot of like what she had said to me after the phone call because I when I called her on the phone I told her she was like like, I'm happy for you, but, like, I'm confused, like, why you didn't wait for weeks. And then I was like, well, I'm stepping back from like bridesmaid things. I said, I'll still go to the bachelor's party. That's fine. Like, it's early enough in the pregnancy.

You didn't say anything in response to that. You just let her go. No, I just kind of blew over it because I was like, what am I going to, I'm not going to justify my actions to you. And then when she texted me, it was kind of along the same lines. Like, I don't understand why you didn't wait for weeks. And then it's extremely unfair to our friend that she doesn't get to. have you there because of the choice that you made and does this does this person have kids no and

she doesn't want children like ever oh okay yeah which is the whole other like you don't even understand what it's like i think you just ignore i mean like yeah there's no don't don't waste your breath explaining i mean i myself i would have been like it's none of your fucking business you don't know what you're talking about but thanks for sharing your opinion that's what I would have said but I'm not that that that's not that's definitely not like the yeah I told her I said your feelings are valid and I said you know so is the bride's feelings they're valid like it's it's an upset right like her day is like going to be different because I'm not there I was like but I mean I don't know like what I it's whatever I you're you're

it's her wedding it's not your wedding it's not your wedding, you know, and yes, would have been nice that her, one of her best friends would be there for sure. But if her, if she's wasting her any part of her day, thinking, oh, I wish she was there, like, that's, I don't know, I don't remember giving a fuck about who wasn't at my wedding on the day of my wedding. That was not a concern of mine. That's true. You know, and it's not that I was, you know, there are some people who couldn't make it. Some people I really wanted to come. And And shit happens and life happens and a couple family members not being able to make it for choices that I didn't personally.

Like I didn't like, but whatever, it's fine. Like, no, it's like, it's just a day. It is just a day. Yeah. You know, and that's a day that's supposed to be special to her. It's not. And her husband. And it's just.

Yeah. The rest is all bullshit. Correct. The rest is a show. Like, you know what I mean? Like, me standing up there, that's like part of the show. It doesn't have any impact in the, like, the longevity of their relationship. No.

Like, so it would be great to be there to support her because we've been friends for 10 years and, like, I get it. But I don't know. To me, it's not the end-all be-all. I only say this year because you need to know this, right? And like, I have a gift. And that is to not give a fuck about things that I know I shouldn't give a fuck about. And I just leave it out the door and I move on with my life. I'm envious of that.

I will fixate and I have been fixating like but you just need to know you need like listen it's important to know when you're not right it's important to be able to be humble and say hey it's good for me to get some feedback from people or or for someone who's close to you to sit you down and say hey I think you're being a little like self-centered right now it's important to have those qualities it's also important to know when like you're right you know and you're right for whatever reason, you know, because it's, this is a decision I made from my family. And I don't need outside voices. And if that outside voice is my mom or, or my best friend or my father-in-law, fuck them. Because like, they're wrong, you know? And like, it's none of their goddamn business.

And when it comes to, like, adulthood and having your family and planning your family and having a relationship with your husband and being parents together and raising your kids, you guys need to make a ton of decisions together. And it's great to get feedback from people who are, you know, older and wiser and have been there before. And it's great to seek out advice. But at the end of the day, you need to know what is right and is wrong. And you need to know when to shut outside noise out, especially now that you're pregnant.

Yeah. It's been like so stressful. Like, honestly, since I found out my due date, I was like, oh, fuck. Like, it's just been. You know what I'm saying? You know, like, you know how, you know, stress. It's not good. It's not good.

You know what I'm saying? And like put your priorities in line. This fucking chick who doesn't want a life remotely like yours or the overall health your baby. Like what's more important? Her feelings or your baby's health? Valid. Yeah.

And like it's that simple. And so then you just stop giving a fuck about some girl whose lives is only, I don't know if you, are you friends with this girl? Yeah. Like she was my maid of honor and I was. her maid of honor so like we not not the not the not the not the not the not the not the not the not the not is was also my made of honor and I was her made of honor so like we're actually the chances are you're going to continue to grow further and further apart not because you're just want

different things she doesn't you want a family and you're going to invest you know and she doesn't and I you know once kids show up like this changes your calculus as you know like not personal it's not you know I have buddies who aren't parents it's It's not. We're still friends, but I, you know, it's different. Yeah, it's not the same. You know. So I have another question for you then. So I, we're supposed to go to the on like a late trip with them in two weeks. Like the maid of. So the maid of honor and her husband and then the bride and her fiance. And me and my husband and my daughter, we're all, we're all supposed to go together and spend like a weekend at the lake. And like after the conversation that we had, I just, I don't, I don't, I don't necessarily. I feel like there's just going to be a lot of tension and it's going to be like one of those things where like we're playing nice and or it has like the potential to blow up because my husband is pissed right now at her and he is very much like you in the aspect where he's like literally

fuck her like this is ridiculous and he wanted me to respond a lot differently than I did with like your feelings are valid and you know like he's like no you should have put her in her place so I'm really scared that my husband if we went would would do just that do you think you could have this conversation with her without stressing yourself out, one first and foremost, with a little bit more authority, tell her a little bit more honestly about how you feel and hopes that she would just like, you know, just say, hey, and it goes something like, listen, your comments to me the other day bothered me a little bit. Like, I understand that you were just trying to be a friend to Megan. But like, and I totally get that, you know, you don't

want what I want but like you definitely overstepped when it came to like sharing your opinion about like how I'm building my family in my life and like I'm not even get into like what you said but like I'm not planning I'm not planning on like having like I don't even know how you say it but it's just like that was none of your business and that was a really insensitive thing to say to me and and whatever your husband's name is you don't need to show and and she should apologize you think she owes me an apology i think she i think she needs to recognize that it was insensitive whether she wants to have kids or not to like understand like the position of a pregnant woman and the emotional like the the just the sensitivity around that you know and that she

decided to put what she could only assume that you probably felt bad about not going you know she right i'm assuming she so like the fact that she decided to in that moment say something that would only make you feel more bad or more guilty about something that like you didn't want this but for you you know but for her to assume that you're going to family plan around a friend's wedding is the most absurd thing yeah i and the thing is like my husband and i I've been talking about like not going and then like the direction in which to like, do we lie? Do we just say like, oh, dog sitters fell through like can't make it or do we be honest? Because this isn't like the first time she's like done.

Yeah, you got to be honest. You got to get you. If she's a real friend, this person was your maid of honor, give her a chance to see your point of view. Like you don't, this isn't, you don't guys, don't have to turn this in a high school fight. You don't have to, this doesn't require kicking and screaming and name calling and it doesn't need to turn into drama. but if this person is a friend that's worth continuing to invest in into adulthood, she should understand you and your husband's point of view. And if she can't, that is definitely a red flag.

And maybe a signal that like this isn't a friendship you guys should do much investing in because like you're not judging her for her choices. She doesn't want to have kids. That's fine. God bless her. Whatever she wants to do of her life is cool. Listen, I guess, yeah, I guess before you have kids, It's just, you know, like, it, you do.

It's super easy before you have kids to be able to say, like, you could have waited four weeks before you had kids. Well, yeah, because you, you, the only thing you prioritize is like, I guess your job and your boss is like, okay, well, you can either have a case or not have a vacation or but other than that, you get to do whatever the heck you want in life. You know, your priority, I guess is your friends and family, you know, or, you know, trips you want to take or like bucket list things that you want to do. And then, like, you just kind of, yeah.

you make things work. But yeah, what your friend doesn't understand is like once kids are in the equation and like clearly she's never experienced trying to get pregnant and the difficulties around that and just, you know, and you don't really need her to understand that. But like she should at least understand a little bit about that it's certainly none of her business. And then as a pregnant woman, that wasn't really her call to make you feel more bad about something that is this really none of her business and something that at a minimum,

whether she wants to have kids or not, should have been able to, like, have a little more empathy for someone who does. Correct. And like I think the reason why, you know, like I told her, like, your feelings were valid because I do see both sides, I guess, in the essence of like, I do have a friend who's getting married. This is an important day for her and I wish I could be there. But on the flip side, like two things can be true at once where two happy things can be

happening at once. Like somebody can be married and somebody can be married and somebody can be. having a kid like and I just felt like I thought she was going to be bipartisan and be able to see that like there's two happy events happening and that it wouldn't have like blown up into how she feels so it's not it's not about her feelings it's not even her goddamn wedding no it's not but she's like made this about her and like protecting our friend and I don't understand to me it feels like almost too that she's picked a friend over the other like my other my other friend the bride her feelings are more valid or more important than mine yeah maybe maybe to her and maybe

that's not true that's just how i feel well you're talking about someone who doesn't want kids and doesn't see the value in having kids and it's not a priority to her but getting married was and having that party it was and yeah a lot of people get married because they want to have a family and want to have that partnership and raising a family that's like what it ultimately leads to yeah uh i don't know what your friend is like what you know I'm not saying the only reason you get married is for that I'm just saying having kids bring so much purpose into your life you don't have time for other things that you found purposeful that you now find trivial doesn't make you right or them wrong it just changes your perspective and the reality is is that there are things that she still values

greatly that you kind of find to be superficial or trivial now it now that you brought other things into your life. And I'm not, you're not right and she's wrong, but she needs to at least respect your choices. And she, you know, I do think whether you want to have kids or not, you need to respect that like if you, if there are people in your life you care about

who do want to have kids, you need to recognize the sensitivity around how important it is, to not stress out, you know, that person. And if you're a friend who puts their feelings over the feelings of your pregnant friend that would ultimately cause them stress, especially when it has nothing to do with you just because out of, like, principle, like, what is the hill that she's dying on here? To me, I don't even, at this point, I don't even know because I feel, like I said,

I feel like she, like, picked aside. It's like, this friend's, like, day is more important. than you bringing an addition into the family. Yeah, but I don't think she picked it. I think that's just like where her priorities lie. She can't, she doesn't relate to you. Yeah,

she has no idea what it's like to be a mom. But she, yeah, so to be to continue to be a friend in your life, you need to know that she can empathize with you. And maybe in the heat of the moment, this is how she handled it. But like if you calmly come,

come to her as a friend and say, hey, I think, you know, one, it just hurts, it hurt my feelings knowing that like, obviously I'm heartbroken. I can't be there. I'm, I feel bad. I've had guilt over it. So for you to, after I had already talked to Emily about it, and now I'm talking, and she was generally like, obviously sad, but okay with it, only to get like your response and basically telling me, like, I should have not gotten pregnant is, honestly, kind of a crazy, insensitive thing for you to say to me. And it just really hurt my

feelings. And I think that's what you say. And see how she, see how she responds. And I would say it hurt our feelings. Yeah, like my husbands as well, like include him into, yeah, because yeah, he's, yeah, he's pretty upset. Like, more so than I was. Like, and it's because for me, this isn't like, this is not my first time with her doing something like this. Like, whenever she found I was pregnant with my first one, it was, I was pregnant at her wedding, but I didn't obviously miss her wedding, I made it, but I was pregnant at her bachelorette party. So I couldn't partake in like the drinking and the going out and the clubbing. And so like in a way she told me like I kind of ruined her bachelor at party because I couldn't party the same way everybody else could.

That's fucking crazy. Yeah, that's fucking crazy. I'm like, dude, like it's just. I kind of hate your friend. I, you know. Yeah. Like, oh. And then like, okay.

So also my wedding day, I guess my mother-in-law had mentioned something like I was getting off of my birth. control not long after that, which is the truth. And I hadn't told my friend that. And she was like, are you trying to get pregnant like right away? Like she's always been very, I guess, scared of my life changing and it not being the same. I mean, she's, she doesn't want kids. Her perfect world is all of her friends also not wanting to have kids because she clearly knows the reality of what it's like when your friends have kids is they become less available to you. And she doesn't want her friends to become less available to her. She wants, wants, I guess I'm assuming she's envisioned this life where she finds her partner. And then in an

adult life, everyone just parties with their friends and they go on trips together and they go out to dinners and they just like have a fun life with each other for the rest of time. Yeah, and that was fun in my early 20s. But like, I'm about to be 30 and I don't want to do that for the rest of my life. And I just think you need to tell her that. Yeah, like having and I wish she could understand like. You don't need to understand, but you do need to tell her. And you just stop, you just need to stop validating her feelings that don't matter. I mean, your response empowers her to feel the way she's doing. Do you feel like I've enabled her?

Yeah, no, because her feelings aren't valid. They were, in that moment, they were not valid. They were irrelevant. They were none of her business. That's crazy. Huh? Yeah. I said, that's crazy because, like, I just didn't see it that way.

Like, it's crazy, like, blunt being told that. It's like, it's not your wedding and it's not your pregnancy. So this is none of your business. like good for you but what it what it is is insensitive and like as my friend you should know that that like you said something really insensitive and dismissive as it relates to my dreams and like i'm sorry that mine and megan's dreams aren't like are overlapping but like you can be happy for the both of us i don't need you to be there in the delivering room you should go go support our friend obviously i'm devastated i can't be there but for you to like say anything

to make me feel bad about it is kind of shitty. Okay. I'll do it. I'll be honest. But you clearly have a history with this friend where she feels very comfortable expressing her feelings about how you hurt her and it's one-sided. Correct. That's, yeah.

I usually just take the like brunt end of what her feelings are and I have to be a better friend because like I feel like over the years, over the last 10 years, it's been like you did this. And I have to apologize for it and then have to make up for it. I mean, that's where this all comes from, right? Like, this is the relationship you guys have created. And you've been a part of it. So you are at fault, right?

Where she feels comfortable expressing her disappointment in you. And you don't feel comfortable expressing your disappointment in her. And so she feels very empowered to say these out-of-pocket things because it's how she feels. And you're always responding being like, well, okay, I'm sorry. Your feelings are valid. okay um and she's never been put in her place yeah and so one or two things are going to happen you're going to you're going to maturely tell her tell her how you feel and she's going to either respond the way she should or you're going to realize that maybe this friendship is starting to

like run its course and like there's not really much of a future here because like your friendship has been very much operating on on on what she wants and not what you guys want as friends and And as long as your guys' priorities were the same, the friendship worked. And now that your priorities are becoming more and more different, if you want to speak up for yourself and you want to be heard, she's not down for that. Yeah. But I think when you do it, you have to try to not be emotional about it. You have to be very matter of fact.

That's like impossible, but I will absolutely do my, I feel like having my husband there also, he is very matter of fact. very blunt, very, this is how it is. I feel like that's part of why we work. But I feel like, yeah, he'll be a good steady hand in making sure that I like follow through and don't chicken out and just cave to to keep the piece. Because I feel like that's a lot of it is like I'm a people pleaser. So instead of standing up for myself, like I just do what I can to like.

Yeah. And this is a really good chance that you've just never stood up for yourself. And then when you finally do, she'll be like, you're right. I'm sorry. That was kind of, you know, I don't know. Like, maybe. Yeah. You know.

And if it doesn't, I feel like that's also the answer. Like, yeah. I just don't, I don't have the time, honestly. It would just be a crazy pill for them to die on to be like, no, we just really think that you shouldn't have done that. And we think you're wrong. Yeah. That's how we feel.

Yeah. So do you just want to come to the lake, even though we feel like you, that would be crazy. That would be insane. Yeah. Or she could say, you know what, you're right. I'm sorry. Obviously, I know you want to be there. And that was a little incentive to me.

And like, let's just go half on at the lake. And thanks for letting me know that, you know. Yeah, which is how it should go. But I just, like, have a feeling that's not how it's going to go. I feel like she's going to try to steamroll me, like how it always has been to make sure that, you know, things continue how she would prefer. Though I can't change being pregnant, you know, like, I can't, I can't fix the situation either. I just make sure your husband's by your side but whatever you do you can get emotional do not you don't apologize and don't back down and don't let her see you be sad about

like she is wrong yeah thought yeah I which yeah she yeah she's either going to see it or not see it you are giving her the opportunity to see her faults in this friendship and that's it. And she's either going to take that opportunity or not. You are not invest. You have to try to not be invested in the outcome. Be willing to accept what happens. Because your only priority right now is you and your husband and this baby you're cooking and your and your daughter and like anyone else who wants to be a part of that harmony. Great. And if not, no problem. Yeah. It's not worth it. Yeah. I don't know. No, you're right. You're right. You're right. I'm going to do it and I'm

going to make sure my husband's there so that I follow through. You just have to know you're not wrong. Okay. I have to start believing that because like I said, the way that she talked to me and the way she made me feel it just, which I guess I choose my own feeling. She can't make me feel a certain way. But that's what I'm saying. It's knowing you're not wrong. It's not choosing to feel right. You are you are right. At least about you're, you know, for yourself, you're right. Yeah. There's no alternative, right? Like, there's just no, you were not going to family plan around anyone, like, around, around anything. Around anything. No. Yeah. No. And this baby's not a mistake. And you're, and you're not going to let the closest people in your life make you feel bad about that.

No. And it's that simple. It's just that, it's that, it's that simple. Okay, Nick, I'll do it. All right. You're right. Okay. Just don't you, you're right. No, I'm not right. You're right. Okay. I am right. She is wrong. And you're going to give her the opportunity to see her mistake. And if she doesn't want to, that is her problem. Because you, I mean, not to sound like, I hope anyone listening who doesn't want to have kids, I'm not coming for you, whatever, like to your life. The reality is if, you know, you're going to want to have to find other friends who don't want to have kids because if a bunch of your friends want to have kids and you don't and you want a life that

is centered around, you know. traveling and yeah and i i have i have dear friends who don't want to have kids and they have and they have an amazing life right and they you know but they don't they never they're independent with each other and like you know they they have a great time with each other um they don't need other other people to be like they have a bunch ton of they have tons of friends but like they still to make their life together you know and your friend sounds like someone who's trying to keep the band together. I was the first thought of my friends to get pregnant, too.

So I feel like I'm the first to really start to break this way. There's only one other of us that has had a kid. Oh, you're right. I am right. You're right. Try not to stress. Well, I appreciate you so much, and I absolutely love your show. I listen all the time.

So I just really appreciate you. Well, I appreciate it. Congratulations to you. husband it's awesome um and uh just don't stress about stupid shit like this it's all stupid it is it's it's just all stupid right like as long as your daughter and your husband are healthy everything else and then you guys can like pay your bills it's all stupid so just don't worry about stupid shit okay no wall all right okay okay take care bye bye bye but hey small business out there you need to check out constant contact if you haven't already constant

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How's it going? Good, how are you? Good. What's your name? My name is Cassie. I'm 32, and I'm calling because my husband is more interested in porn than in me. Okay, well, I'm sorry to hear that. Thanks.

What makes you feel that way? Different levels of intimacy. probably, which has been kind of recurring over the few years we've been together. And then I've recently kind of found out how intense he's watching porn. What does that look like? Like every other day. When you say watching it, like he's like sitting down, you know, some popcorn out and just enjoying porn? Or is it like he's masturbating every other day. And when he masturbates, he watches porn to accompany that session. Yeah, I mean, definitely he's sneaking off and masturbating watching porn,

which usually I don't think would be an issue. I think that that's normal, but I think that the problem kind of comes in that I have expressed that I'm not satisfied in our sex life. And so I've recently found out that he, has been sneaking away, lying about it. You know, we've had open conversations before about kind of frequency and stuff like that, but he's been hiding it and kind of turning to porn instead of me.

Okay. What is, I mean, so what is he saying? I mean, just that, I mean, we've talked about this when we first got together years ago. We're both very aware we have different kind of intimacy needs. And we've just kind of chalked it up to him maybe having low, testosterone and just kind of being different people. So I've kind of accepted that. Well, it's not low testosterone. I mean, I didn't read like I just kind of took him for his word. I trusted him. And it's just been really bothering me lately. So now that you know, right? Like have you sat him down

and say, hey, listen, like, I'm not trying to come from a place of judgment. But like, it's not even just about the porn. But like, it feels like you are watching porn. and having enjoying time by yourself rather than with me and that that makes me feel a certain kind of way and it feels like you're more and you know we're not not something not something we're enjoying together and it seems like it is taking over our sex life like you know um yeah that is something i definitely have a problem with like yeah i had almost that identical conversation with him probably about two weeks ago and I mean he seemed to have felt bad and he just kind of said you know he's tired and sex takes a lot of effort and you know it's just an easy out um true

those are all which yeah which fair and like if we're fighting or something like he doesn't want to be intimate we're like I mean that doesn't really affect me um but like this kind of also I mean kind of another point to it is that when we aren't intimate we do fight more which then pushes him away more um and he kind of said that like sitting and watching porn to him is like like women are like art and it's just like admiring them which obviously doesn't make me feel any better about the situation it's always weird and they try to like justify it but like listen like you watch porn dude it's fine like whatever most guys do on some level but it's just like how how much is it taking over and affecting other aspects of your life or how much is it affecting

the things that are supposed to be important to you it's affecting his marriage like he obviously recognizes that and he's not wrong like yeah sex is like i think women agree too you know it's easier to masturbate than to you know go through the whole motions of sex you know and the intensity of it but that matters in a relationship. And life is hard and, like, you know, get tired, but you take the time to invest in the things that matter to you. And so if this marriage matters to him, you can't just keep coming up with excuses

as to why he doesn't want to invest in his sex life with his wife. And if he is able to balance both, then great, but he's not able to balance them. And that's why you're having a problem. Yeah, exactly. So was that the first time you said that to him two weeks ago? No, I mean, we've kind of on and off discussed it, not frequently. I mean, we've been together for four years.

We've maybe had this conversation once every six to 12 months. And is it always the same where you basically say, I'm frustrated, here's why he gives you a list of some excuses, tries to justify a little bit, and you're like, okay, I guess. Essentially, yeah, I mean, like sometimes after these conversations, it gets better for a while, but it kind of just keeps going back to the same thing. All right. Well, have you brought that up to them? Yes.

That, hey, this is like, you know, a theme. Yeah, I mean, I've brought it up. Like, I've gotten so frustrated that I kind of say, like, it feels like it's just an incompatibility thing at this point because how, like, I just don't get how we can be so far apart on kind of what we want. And to me, like, that's a part of a healthy marriage. and, you know, the closeness with each other. And, you know, it trickles into other aspects of your relationship.

Do you guys have kids together? No. Do you want kids? Yeah, we're struggling through infertility right now. I'm sorry. Thanks. That can't help. Yeah.

Feeling disconnected from your husband doesn't help, you know, with that type of stuff. Yeah. I mean, at a minimum, you need to feel like your husband cares about this disconnection that you're feeling as much as you do, right? At a minimum. Like, he can have his reasons. He can have his struggles, but he needs to care. You know, he needs to care and he needs to be a part of finding solutions to this problem

that the two of you are having, right? Right now, he is treating it like a you problem and he's not seeing it as a we problem. Yeah. And he doesn't seem to be interested in being a part of a solution. He's, I guess his solution is getting you to not complain about it. Yeah, I mean,

that's kind of how it feels. I think that he, like I'm very much more like the physical intimacy, obviously, and he's more like verbal. So. How often do you have in sex? I mean,

I'd say in like on average, maybe once a week, maybe once every other week. Okay. Not terrible. No, I mean, like, it's probably gone, like, two or three weeks, but, like, we've also only been married for two years. Like, I'm 32. Like, I, I just feel like it's, like, kids, too. Like, yeah, like, it's just, I don't see. I just don't understand why. Like, it just seems ridiculous to me. Um, and he expressed, like, verbally that he cares and

says, you know, all the right things, it feels like. Have you guys done a couple of couples therapy? Yeah, we tried. We went to a few sessions and then he got upset and said he's not going back. What do you get upset about? Because that session was more focused on me and my feelings and then the next one was supposed to be about him and he just felt like it wasn't equal in that couples therapy always takes the women's side. I mean, he's watching porn in lieu of having sex as his wife. I don't think. Yeah. You obviously came in here like questioning, like, hey, do I stay in this thing? You know, am I in the, right?

Like, you're questioning your marriage at this point, correct? Yeah, I am. I mean, this just affects so much more. Like, I, the longer that we go without being intimate, the, like, I mean, I don't want to say we talk nasty to each other, but it definitely comes into, like, more disrespectful talk. And then it just kind of spirals from there. And then there's all these layers of, like, horrible things that I don't think are okay to say to someone.

And for me, it just comes back. back to, well, if... Like, what? I mean, he's, like, said to me, like, thank God we don't have kids together and, you know, calling me like a bitch all the time and marrying me was a mistake. Oh, yeah. You know, just like, really... Not that that's ever okay, but, like, are you saying things to him?

Like, what's... Like, what's... Are these things just, like, coming out of nowhere? Yeah, I mean, really coming out of nowhere. We will get into a fight about something. because, I mean, I, without being intimate, do you get like a bit more attitude, which I acknowledge all the time. And so something small will happen. He's not done the dishes, but he said he was going to do the dishes, you know, whatever. And if I bring a point about, well, why did you say you were

going to do something you didn't do? And he gets defensive. It spirals into like all these other problems that he has with me and all these other points. And then I'm just like, well, it's about one problem like let's keep it about the one problem it doesn't need to be like now i'm a mistake you know yeah i mean that's crazy things to say to him i will say like it there's it's a fine line between getting mad at your partner for for not putting out um it's not just about the sex obviously you know it's just the bigger picture of the porn i just think you know if you are getting test to simply because he doesn't want to like yeah you you getting mad at him as a result of him not wanting to put out is maybe something you definitely want to work on um yeah i mean i don't really i mean

it's not like in the moment i'm like because we didn't have sex last night i'm going to be angry with you today like i just feel like over naturally over yeah like you're feeling rejected right you feel yeah you feel i get it i just um yeah at the end of the day like you know one you'd just be like hey i i don't i can't have you talk to me that way if this is how you really feel about me then like maybe we need to have more serious conversations. But if you do want to be in this marriage and we are going to keep trying, like,

can you at least acknowledge that we're not in a good place either? Like, if you don't want to be married to me, like, let's just call it. Like, and if you do want to be married to me and you're saying, you know,

then like, A, you got to stop saying those things. And two, like, how are we going to fix this? Because one thing we can agree on is we're both not happy with this current situation.

Like, let's just agree on that. I don't know how to do that. this by myself. I understand you didn't like couples therapy, but like either we're going to fix it or we're not going to fix it. And we haven't been able to fix it on our own. And it's not going to just magically change. What do you do when like you have those conversations because we have had those conversations. And I like I'm going to therapy. I feel like I'm putting in a lot of work. I've seen a lot of progress in myself over the last few months. And I say to him from your

part. I can handle everything else. I cannot handle like the nastiness. Something has got to change. How do we work on this? And if he, every time it's the same thing, I'm going to work on it. I'll stop saying it. Like, well, at what point do you say enough is enough? You're like, you're dealing with like, I guess what I'm saying is like all men are very like, most men are logically thinking. They like to like reverse engineer their thought process. So like put them in a quarter right and my point is it's like here you're saying oh well i'm going to therapy i'm doing some work and yada i can you know but like you i can put up a lot of things but i can't put up with your nastiness and and so that gives an opportunity to say well then i won't be nasty you know and then

nothing changes right like like you just said but like that is not going to get him to do what you want which is to like one ultimately probably i guess is to jump into therapy or you know but you just say, listen, can we agree that, like, our, we're struggling, like, we're disconnected and we're, neither of us are happy with this current situation. We, we both have our reasons. And you need, you need to find common ground with your husband right now. What is the one thing you can agree on? And even if that a thing you can agree on is the fact that both of you are just kind of miserable in this marriage? Yeah. But you don't want to get divorced? Hopefully that's his answer. Yeah, I think we'd both agree with that.

so they're common ground do all right so if we if we don't ultimately want to get divorced but we are kind of miserable then don't you think like do you want to keep living this way i'm not even let's forget about whose fault it is right now yeah but i don't know how to fix this on my own you got to get him to like see your logic which is or are we just going to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results right because like i don't listen if i make you miserable like just like let's that's let's just spare each other like the more hurt and pain. And if you don't want to change or if you're not going to change or I can't do this by myself, we can't do this by myself. So what's going to be different? Yeah. And you've got to get it and like kind of go down that logical

path. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. And I'm happy to have. I mean, I feel like I've had versions of that conversation before and I mean it always ends up you know we're on the same page we both agree we want to work on things move forward but it just ends up in the same place yeah but like it doesn't because you don't do anything um you try couples therapy once and he quit yeah you know and I'm not saying a couple's therapist is the only solution but like you guys need outside help yeah Maybe it's a friend, maybe it's a priest or a pastor, I don't, you know, or a life coach, you know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, parent, I don't know. But clearly can't do it by yourself. Yeah. That's okay. A lot of people can't. And this isn't like not going to get easier with kids. So like before you guys keep trying to have, you know, it's just like you guys are both not happy with this current situation. Yeah. I think you just kind of really have to start being honest without being mean. about what the relationship looks like and where you want to go from here

and see if he's willing to like make some changes. But he has to, you know, he has to care. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I at some point could probably get him to agree to try counseling or maybe a different counselor or, I mean, he's religious, so maybe a pastor or something. But like at what point if someone decides that, like they can't change,

change, or it's not worth it, or it's too hard, or whatever, like, when is the point that you are, should walk away? I mean, I think everyone has their own, that's not really for me to tell you, you'll have to decide for yourself. But yeah, I think when you realize that you've tried, like, when they've made it perfectly clear, they're just unwilling to do anything different. Right. It should, listen, at a minimum, it should bother your husband. He should, he should be even to himself be able to acknowledge like maybe I'm watching a little too much porn and like yeah I guess if if the roles were versed yeah I would I see why this bothers her I understand that I am tired that's all true but like I don't expect her to like that excuse and that would you know

no one wants to be too tired to be made like constantly being too tired to care about you I did kind of explain it that way to him like if roles were reversed and like what if I was turning you down or you found out like you know that i'm doing that every other day instead of like coming to you and i think that that did kind of click with him at that point he seemed pretty irritated at the thought of that um so i think you know to some degree he understands now after kind of explaining it that way but yeah if you were like on instagram like just masturbating the like hot guys on on the gram and then turning him down for sex Yeah. It's offensive.

And if you can't get them to at least a, you know, I'm really, I'm no, I'm not making my wife feel good. If you can't, you know, then I don't know where there is to go from there. Well, I don't think we're there yet. So that's good at least. Yeah, it's just he needs to be able to, you know, it's like you seem reasonable. Like, yeah, and your sex life isn't like dead. That's for sure. I mean, once a week isn't that bad. But again, you have, you guys have no kids. kids. So, like, and he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's climaxing every other day. Right. So. Yeah. He's having sex 10 times in two weeks and, and, and once of those is with

you. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely not the excuses that he's given me before. Like, that would make sense for low testosterone. I mean, now that I know this, because I did only recently find out, um, yeah, it's not low testosterone. and being tired. It's just like being, yeah, you know. He's comparing to how he was when he was 21, where it was like you're never too tired to have sex,

to now where it's just like, I don't know, he's got a job and responsibility and like, you know, having sex with the same person, like when you meet someone and it's exciting, you're just wondering if you're going to get laid only to like, oh, I'm going to get laid. And it's exciting. And then when you're like in a relationship or married,

there's you guys have your routines and you come home from work you say hi someone makes dinner you guys eat dinner and then you're kind of after after dinner like routines or whatever then you kind of get in bed and like no one's everyone's waiting for the other person to make a first move and you know it takes some effort um and then you're just kind of tired that's not has i don't think that has much to do with testosterone levels and men i think it just has to do with like giving a shit yeah i mean it sounds like yeah i'd be willing to a met his testosterone. How old is he? 33.

Yeah, I, knowing that he's watching porn every other day, I'm not a doctor, but I bet he'd get a pretty good. Yeah, it sounds like he's just fine. I think you just, you got to keep talking to him. But it's, I think the big thing is not trying to attack one thing about what he's doing and how it's making you feel. I think you got to make it more about a we problem. This is a you, the relationship is in peril. The relationship is disconnected. You guys are fighting.

Things are being said. Feelings are being hurt. You are trying to find solutions to this problem that you two are having. You may not be communicating it as effectively, but he doesn't really seem to be his solution to this problem is that he promises to change. if you shut up and he doesn't change yeah and that's just like what are you supposed to do next right and yeah i think you just got to frame it that way okay that makes sense i can do that anyway helpful

yeah i mean it makes me feel less crazy for sure it's hard to kind of like see it from you know going through the same cycles yourself you're definitely not crazy and sadly i don't think you're alone. Yeah. And I think it's very common for a lot of men to watch porn or people to watch porn, even in marriages, and every relationship has their comfort levels with that. But even for the people who are generally comfortable with their partners watching porn, they just don't want to feel like they're being replaced by the porn that they're watching. And I totally get the convenience. it's a lot easier for people to masturbate than to be physically intimate with their partners

but that's not an excuse not to be and when your partner says hey I'm feeling a little like unloved unseen unheard I like I just want to like that up your partner has to step up and do some about it and make them feel like they're choosing you over the porn and like at that that you shouldn't have to

have that much harder time explaining to him And the fact that if you can't get that hurdle, then there's not much where to go. So I think he need to feel like he gets it. And if he doesn't, you know, I don't know, then maybe there's not much. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how I'm definitely going to have another conversation and make sure that I'm coming across very clear because I'm kind of thinking back. And I don't know if maybe I just was a bit more shut down than what I thought that I was in the conversation. so I mean that's definitely a good starting place and kind of see I guess how he takes that and reacts moving forward well if he were here what would you be what do you think he'd be

saying um that it's easy he would say it's not like that's easy what you want me to have like you want me to have sex we'll have sex that's easy well like that's the type of shit that he would say like clearly not and let let's be real I would say to him like you know fuck man I'm yeah Yeah. I'm often too tired to have sex, you know? What would you say to that? I mean, you know.

I mean, I don't. You would feel ganged up on, probably. Yeah, probably. At some point, he needs a man up. I don't know, he needs to step up and just face, you know. Yeah. Then you say he's super religious? Yeah, he is pretty religious.

No. I'm not at all. Well, maybe you should just shame him. Shame them. Yeah, I mean, it's crossed my mind when I've kind of talked to other people. They, you know, it's kind of brought into it. Yeah, I don't know if Jesus would appreciate him watching porn. I doubt it.

Watching his wife. Well, I'm sorry you're going through this. I don't know how helpful I was, but I really just think you need to try to make sure he's willing to fight with you, not in that the fight is not just you by yourself. Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay.

Yeah. No, I appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Well, take care. Okay. Thanks. You too.

Bye. Bye.