The Viall Files - E993 - Jessi Hildenbrandt, The Paper Red Carpet w/ Susie, Love Island Astrology, RHOC, RHOM & Cardi B Court

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  We hope you had an incredible Labor Day weekend! Today, we welcome Jessi Hildebrant for an incredible interview, discussing their thoughts and experience on Jodi Hildebrant and Ruby Franke. Meanwhile, Susie Evans stops by to talk about Peacocks’ The Paper red carpet and the conversations she had with the cast. Plus, we get into RHOC, RHOM, Cardi B’s court case, and Love Island USA astrology with Not That Cosmic… You won’t want to miss it.  TRIGGER WARNING: This interview contains topics related to child abuse, so please listen at your own comfort. “Jodi is the mastermind here, this would never have happened without Jodi.” Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff. Available wherever you get your podcasts and YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774286896 Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  We’ve partnered with Mint Mobile to open a hot takes hotline to hear your scorching hot opinions! Give us your hot takes, thoughts and theories and we’ll read and react to the best ones on an upcoming Reality Recap episode! All you have to do is call 1-855-MINT-TLK or, if you prefer the numbers, that’s 1-855-646-8855 and leave us a message. Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Follow us on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheViallFiles Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0J6DW1KeDX6SpoVEuQpl7z?si=c35995a56b8d4038 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Hero Bread-  Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to https://hero.co and use code VIALL at checkout. SKIMS - Shop our favorite bras and underwear at https://SKIMS.com  Bombas - Head over to https://bombas.com/viall and use code viall for 20% off your first purchase. Cymbiotika - Go to https://cymbiotika.com/viall to get 20% off plus free shipping. Timestamps: (00:00) - Intro (04:16) - Household Headlines (17:39) - The Paper Red Carpet (26:49) - Reality Predictions With Not That Cosmic (38:56) - Love Island (52:28) - RHOC (01:02:39) - RHOM (01:15:13) - Jessi Interview (02:12:28) - Outro Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @cosmicblondi @jessitattooer @susiecevans @ciaracrobinson @justinkaphillips @leahgsilberstein @dereklanerussell @the_mare_bare  

What's going on, everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files reality recap edition. Hope you all had a safe and wonderful Labor Day weekend. We certainly did. Natalie had a birthday. It was... What did we do again? We did a lot of stuff.

It was a lot of fun. Quick recap. We're recording this on the Friday before because as a generous boss, we like to give the team off on Monday. So we are not recording on Monday. But fear not, lots to get into. It's a jam-packed episode. So much to discuss. Susie Evan returns to the household.

Evan. Evan. You're still Evan. What did I say? Evan. No, this is Susie's nickname. You know? We all have nicknames.

Susie Edvin returns to the household. She went with the other household members, Mary, Leia, Justin. They all went to the premiere of the paper, the spinoff of the office coming out on Peacock on September 4th. But the household led by Susie Evans went to the red carpet event representing the Vile Files and they had some great conversations with some really dynamic people. and you will hear that momentarily. It was a lot of fun. Susie, how did it feel to be repping the Val Fowls

on the right carpet of the paper? It was amazing. Like, I honestly feel like it was a highlight of my career so far. I'm not even going to lie. It's a highlight for this show, you know? That was a big moment for the show. And, like, what better person than Susie Evans to... Thanks, guys.

Honestly, the whole team, though, like, we made just so many, like, rookie mistakes, but also we were just, like, I was lucky so important. I was like, we truly look very professional right now, like getting compliments left and right from other people there. Fake it to you make it. That's literally that's what I've been doing with the show. Yeah, that's what I was like, wow, this is what this is what it is. You just learn as you go. Yeah, I think the worst was when I called somebody the wrong name. That was really bad. No, but everyone around us thought it was her. Like everyone was confident.

And it was like a blonde lady. So she didn't even know who she was. Or is this a blonde girl? Yeah, it was in the way that like it was a blonde lady with bangs and, you know, it's hard to tell. As like a blonde lady with bangs, it's hard to tell, you know? I actually called her Mary. I don't know what I was thinking. Yeah. You were just like, oh my God, you're so femme.

Mary, what are you doing on that side? Well, we will be getting to that momentarily and airing some clips from that moment of the show later this episode. We also have not that cosmic joining the show. predicted the fallout of the friendship between Ace, Nick, and Taylor. She did a TikTok like a month or so ago and was like, hey, well, all you guys are thinking, this is a friendship that's going to last forever. She was predicting this fallout before anyone else saw it coming. She joins us later this episode to talk about how she came to that prediction and maybe shed some light on will Nick and Alandria stay together? Do the stars align for their relationship? That is later

this episode as well. And then later this episode, many of you are familiar with the Ruby, Frankie, Ate Passenger story. She is now in jail. It's actually a very troubling story, very, honestly, a lot of the details of the story are shocking. She went to jail along with her, I guess, partner in crime, her evil mentor, Jody Hilda Brand. There's a new documentary coming out that covers this story in great detail. And the niece of Jody is with us to talk about their experience going through this traumatic trauma. It's certainly a heavier interview given the context of the story, but we are very appreciative of Jesse. And it's certainly a fascinating conversation. And if you have followed this story at all or heard about it, you are not going to want to miss

that conversation. Before we get into the Love Island fallout, Sierra, do we have any headlines we want to jump into? We sure do. Elizabeth Banks is set to star as Karen Reed in the limited series for Prime Video. Do you think it's too soon for a biopic? It does feel a little soon, right? It does feel a little soon. Yeah.

But also give it to me. Quick turnaround, I guess. But, I mean, it's a huge star. So, I mean, it sounds like it's going to be a pretty big picture. Right. That's definitely, yeah, that's a big cast to put Elizabeth Banks. I feel like with a biopic, though, you got to let, like, the dust settle, let people kind of forget. And then you hit him with that trailer and everyone goes, oh, my God.

I forgot that happened. Yeah, like, I feel like maybe they're just, they're trying to just keep up with the, because the trial like just ended, there was so much hype around it, you know. Like, I feel like maybe they're trying to, is this like a made for TV movie? No, it's on prime video. Prime video. Yeah. Amazon.

Did you guys see the new Ryan Murphy project? No. Ed Gein. Is that? Oh. Ed Gein. Another infamous Wisconsin serial killer. Ed Gein is one of the, he's, yeah, a very infamous serial killer.

Who's playing, Charlie, Charlie, Hunt him. Yeah. Love him. He's playing a very disturbing dark character. I've never heard of this man before. I was this in like the 70s? You guys should watch the David Venture series Mind Hunter, starring Jonathan Groff on Netflix. I've watched, you watch them?

It's really, really good. Wasn't it like a bunch of serial killers? Yeah, but one of the first. like main ones that they kind of like go and interview is ed gine got you i believe unless i'm completely wrong and if so let me know who knows it was a while ago yeah what's going on in wisconsin not much i think that's kind of the problem yeah a lot of was a lot of serial killers were from the midwest uh john wane gasey was like from illinois like like the chicago chicago Chicago area, like 90 minutes from Jeffrey Dahmer.

Yeah. Do you think Michael Parsons is a real killer? Guys, I'm so excited. Guys, okay, first of all, again, we're recording this on Friday. Michael Parsons was traded the Green Bay Packers yesterday. This is like one of the biggest trades in NFL history. If you're Green Bay Packer fan, you know, if you know, you know, this is a very exciting time.

I know none of you in the household care about this, right? Like, Susie, are you, do you care? I know, Mary, I know you kind of are a football fan. I dabble with the Steelers. culturally. Okay. Yeah. This is a really very exciting time. Also, can I just say one of the most unlocked a new hotness of my wife recently. The Milwaukee Brewers are like on a bit of a bit of a baseball. And I've always been a baseball fan. But like, you know, life comes out you fast. You don't have much time for it. I started walking some brewer games. Turns out my wife's a bit of a

baseball fan. Wow. That is hot. You know? Now also the other day I told Nick, I dabbled in some baseball players, and it just brings me back to my youth. I'm like, okay, well, we get to watch baseball. We get to do it as a family. It's a family affair. A lot of haughties play baseball. That's true. There's pants. And they make the money. You know what I mean? And they make that money. And they have tight pants. Did you see Austin Butler and caught stealing? Oh. Well, my wife has always been just interested enough in sports that we like, what I love about Natalie when it comes to sports. It's like, she does, he's not like, hardcore like me. It's not like we're like, oh, yeah, high-fiving. And she definitely makes fun

of me in the best possible way as like a wife show when it comes to the fantasy that is sports. It's like my dungeons and dragons. But like it's a family affair for Natalie. Like we do it as a family. Like I feel like she really gets into it like the whole like vibe of the season. It's because it really gives fall. You know, like football season really gives fall. And I'm telling you ladies, if you're listening and if you are have, you have a boyfriend, or a husband who is into football, even casually, this trade is something like they know about. And so, like, now he would, from time to time,

like, would she go on Twitter and, like, find, like, some sports tweet and, like, hit me with, like, a random, like, analysis of football that I would be shocked that she knew about. Like, Jerry Jones would never. Yeah. He would never do this. The fact that he traded is crazy.

So if you're- Natalie needs to write a book. Ladies, if you're out there, you know, I tell you what, like, listen, you don't need to watch. sports with your man. You don't. I mean, he doesn't need you. If you don't want to, he doesn't need you by your side on the couch day in and day out. But just like, you know, it's always nice to have your partner take somewhat of an interest in the things that they're passionate about. You know, I got a couple lines for you. Just hit them with some of these

questions and act like I didn't tell you to ask these questions. You know, number one, ask ask your partner, do you feel like or just be like Jerry Jones was definitely trying to replicate his Herschel Walker trade. Okay. Did you write that down? Did you write that down? Is that in your notes?

Okay, number two. Do you think Michael Parsons could be as good as Lawrence Taylor? Okay. I feel like that's a good one. That'll get him like, that'll get some dialogue out of them. How much middle linebacker will Michael Parsons play

or will he only play defensive end? If you want to go real crazy, you'd be like, do you think to Packers will play some wide nine. Wide nine. That's fun. Wide nine. Yeah.

Wait, I got one. How does it feel to see Aaron Rogers in the black and gold? Yeah, sure. Black and gold. Is he with the same?

He's with the Steelers now. Yeah. Also, you could say, is it Archie Manning or bust for the Dallas Cowboys? Okay. I feel like y'all got him, right? Done.

Yeah. Yeah. What if there's a follow-up? No, listen, if your man watches. Yeah, that's true. Advice there? You know, The trade happened a few days ago, so maybe, you know, if he is a Dallas Cowboys fan, he's dying. He's hiding.

Especially if your boyfriend's like a Lions or Bears fan. If he's a Bears fan, ask your boyfriend if he feels like the season's already over because the pecker has got Micah Parsons. Speaking of football, did you else hear that Jordan Hudson, Bill Belichick's girlfriend has tried to trademark Gold Digger? You know what? Good for her. Can you trademark? No. A term so... Historically known? Right? It's like, I mean, it's... Like, what about Kanye West?

That's what I was... I was going to be like, not to bring that guy up. Right. Yeah. It's like she didn't create the word. She's definitely not the only woman that's been called that. No. Right.

Is she actually filing for something? Or is she just making claims? It says the application has been accepted by the office but has not yet been reviewed. Wow. If she... pulls this off. But I'm like, are we branding, are we trademarking a term? Are we trademarking in the sense of, like, for her brand?

Like, is she going to start making merch with the name? Yeah, that's like under the brand gold digger. Or she will just be able to, like, if someone else does. I suppose it's a way to protect yourself for people making merch against you, I suppose. Yeah. Is Gold digger really that offensive to her that she needs to, like, take control of the word? You know what I mean? I take taking it back.

Like, that word hits you that hard. like just don't read the comments maybe she just like really wants to it's so many people are calling her a gold digger and she thinks that if she can trademark it she can make money guys i should have trademark child bride yeah what were you thinking it's not too late to file did anyone call you a gold digger never too late yeah i got a few gold diggers you did you know they they like to reuse no one's really original these days you know if you've heard it once you've heard it a million times they go for the hits yeah they go for the hits yeah they go for the hits, for sure. Speaking of hits and things I've never heard of, Cardi B in the courtroom has been soundbites on soundbites. It's giving kind of legally blonde. It's kind of awesome.

It's iconic. It's like an S&L skit that's never ending. It's so entertaining. It's so good. And this, he's what, the prosecutor, I guess, right? Do we have any clips from it? No, we do. Yeah, she's kind of...

She's running circles around him. Every day there's a new one. She's very, she's very much. much giving Marissa Tomey and my cousin Vinny. It's a wig. So this whole case is because... Oscar award winning Marissa Tomei from... Oscar award winning Marissa Tomey in that movie.

And Cardi B. maybe could win an Oscar for this performance in the courtroom as well. She's definitely winning everyone over. She has to play herself. She does. She has to play herself. So this whole trial is basically... Cardi B is accused of verbally and physically attacking a security guard outside of Beverly Hills medical office in 2018.

Hardy B denies. And she is suing her, trying to sue her. Yeah. Money grab. Gold digger. That's what I think. I think it's an astronomical amount of money. Yeah.

It's an insane amount of money. Honestly, without even hearing the courtroom stuff, I think I immediately side with the pregnant woman. You know what I mean? I'm like a security guard pregnant at the time? She was going into a doctor's office. No, Conner Sue. Yeah, she's suing her for $24 million.

$24 million. This is like this is Cardi's Gwyneth moment. And what's crazy is hearing the security guard on the stand and they're like you know, she's, I guess in the initial report she said that like

Cardi has really long nails and she like had scratched her face with her really long nails and it like hit her and so Cardi's lawyer is like asking her about this and she's like oh it's in the report and he's like but

can you tell me like what happened she's like she like can't remember what she said initially so she keeps being like well it's in the report oh my god well you can go back to the report this is a waste of taxpayer dollars 100% crazy this one is him being like can you hear me and she's like hello and he goes hello I'm here yeah hello I'm like she's being sued by this woman for what like emotional distress or some bullshit no for physical for a physical assault alleging that cardi cut her face with a fingernail spat on her and used racial slurs during the altercation And what's crazy is, like, from Cardi B's experience, she's like, I'm walking into this doctor's office and the security guard starts, like, following me with her phone out, like filming Cardi.

And she's basically like, why are you following me? Like, what are you doing? And this girl, like, keeps following her, keeps recording her or whatever she's trying to do. And then I guess they get into a little, like, back and forth. But talking about, like, her being pregnant. And he's like, and so how far along were you? And she's like, I don't know, 13 to 12 weeks. And he's like, so what is that?

Like three, four months? And she's like, I don't know. Don't ask me that. It's the most like, same. She's like, I know I was 13 weeks. And I have no idea how many months that is. Right. Yeah.

Her being like, him asking, did you call her fat? Are you saying that she's fat because she's bigger? And she's like, I didn't call her fat. I called her a bitch. Yeah. Oh, my God. Didn't she go? No, that was like, him.

Right. She was like, are you calling my client fat? And she's like, well, look. Oh, my God. When she's pointing at the eyes and they're like, well, like, how would, like, what do you mean about that? And she's like just pointing to her eyes like, can you see? I was like, oh my gosh. She's winning us over though. She is. So that's the thing. You know, she's not lying on the stand. Yeah. I also just feel like if the person's suing is like physically able to walk into the courtroom, I'm like, I'm sorry, 24 million. Like maybe if you were actually affected by this. Hospitalized. You walked yourself in. Talking about, he's like, like asking her if she was disabled or something. Yeah. And she was like, when I'm pregnant, I'm very disabled. Yes.

Yes. Do you want a list of things I cannot do? You want the list of things I cannot do. Honestly, here's the thing about me in this moment viewing Cardi B on trial. I'm so charmed by her that even if she was in the wrong. Right. Yeah. I'm sorry.

She did nothing wrong. Suing. I agree. There's a time of, I, I'm not a fan of people who've frivolously sue people for money grabs. Yeah. Also, you took out your camera and started recording her in public. She's like going, I'm going to a doctor's office.

Like, clearly I'm like, you know, like this. I'm not like at the park. Like, I'm going to go to the doctor's office. Like, I'm not okay. Like, anyone going into a doctor's office has something going on with them. She was going for like a checkup, but she didn't want people to know yet. So it's also kind of like you're invading her privacy fully And it's like, where are you?

And then you have the receptionist who's like was a witness to all of this. And she's like, I had to tell the security guard like get back to your post like leave her alone. So it's just like this is. I mean, the fact that honestly, yeah, taxpayer dollars are going towards this is crazy. He's crazy. Although if you are, if you get requested for jury duty, you definitely want to be on this trial. For sure. What a good time.

I'm sad I missed it. Wait, do you guys remember that show, juries? duty? Yeah. Yeah. This is season two. Wait, truly. Well, like we said before, the paper premieres on September 4th in the Val Fow's household, join the red carpet, headlined by Susie Evans, and we have a clip to show you guys about their whole experience. So let's take it away.

And then we will talk about it after we get back from the clip. We are here at the Peacock premiere of the paper, Kind of like a spin-off of the office. If you're familiar, it's going to be really exciting. We are going to chat with some of the actors, influencers, comedians that are all here tonight. So let's get into it. Hi, how's it going? I'm Susie. Hi, Susie. Nice to you. You know, we actually met like two years ago.

No chance you would remember me though. No, no, no chance you would remember me. Oh, we're starting over. He's coming back. Oh, my gosh, Leo. Oh, it's so good to see you. How are you? Good, good to see you.

Oh, my gosh. So, good to see you. Okay, I'm a huge fan. You know how I feel. about you. It's mutual. Where do you get your inspiration for the characters that you put out online? From everywhere, from the bank, the post office, old, you know, teachers. You know, I love employees. I love the service industry. Everybody. Hi, I'm Susie with the Vile Files. I'm so excited to meet you. The office has so many fans and you were such an a big part of that. And I just wanted to know,

what can we expect from the paper tonight? I think you're going to like it. It really holds on to it's a mockumentary route, you know. For the people who enjoy getting into the office, you'll enjoy get against the paper. How's it going? I'm Susie. Eric. Nice to meet you, too. I heard you're a writer and you will be making an appearance on the show as well, correct?

That's right. Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about your character? Yeah. My character's name is Travis Beanling. He's like a delivery driver that sits on a couch. Are you excited to be here tonight? I am.

Anything Greg Daniels does and Howard and, you know, Michael. I'm excited to see it. When you're out in public, do people treat you with the same endearment that they would, if they were to meet your character? They're either disappointed

that I'm not the character or relieved. So I just wanted to know a little bit more about your character and what we can expect from her this season. Adelola Alophan is, I think, someone who is, like, the smartest person in the room,

but has the least amount of interest in anything. I wanted to know, people that are fans of the office, do you think that they're going to fall right in and fall in love with these characters in the same way. I hope so. I think if you go into it going, okay, this is a new show. It's in the hands, safely in the hands of the same creatives. I think it is a kind of devoiding themselves so that this is another office. It's not. It's a completely different show. It's kind of like

a version of ex Machinaw with Oscar as a sexy robot. Do you have like the worst, a worst job story that you can give us? What's the worst job you've ever had? It was a stripper car wash. I was a waiter at a summer camp for children and the kids hated me so much. So strippers during the day the clubs weren't really populated so they decided to

come together and create a call wash. Their one kid was a ringleader, Mutti Feirsteen and name drop. Fuck him. Fuck him. As a fan of the office, I personally feel like there is an element to the show that's like you

are both cringing and feeling so awkward but also feel very empathetic. do you even start to write a character that can have both things going at one? I think that everybody on this planet is cringing. You know what I mean? I think cringe is a gift. You know what I'm saying? I feel like people have come to like be afraid of being cringy and we all have to lean into it.

And if you look at yourself for real in the mirror, like there's some embarrassing parts. But you're better for it if you can embrace them. I think the same goes for these characters. Hi, I'm Susie. It's so nice to meet you. So what can we expect going into tonight and watching the first episode? I've seen the first episode. I can guarantee it's a win, win, a 10 out of 10.

And I am so excited for everybody for this show to be out of the world because I think it's like just a very smartly written, very funny show stacked with like an amazing cast. Do you know what an ick is? Like the feeling of being discussed by something? Exactly. Okay, do you have a co-worker ick that you can share with us? An egg?

An ick? An ick? and ick asking me out at work and then me saying i don't want to date you and then having to work with them every day again for like a year you get it's like dermatitis not quite so i worked i worked in a job once and somebody used to bring in the same sandwich every day and it was sort of brown bread peanut butter sweet chili sauce and i think bananas maybe and he would microwave it and the smell in the office i think was I mean, was it personified. Anytime they say you haven't gotten any older,

they don't know what's going on with me. They just don't know. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much. All right, you guys, this was our first time doing a red carpet. And it was an adrenaline rush. It was exciting.

It was so much fun. It got super loud and busy. We did the best that we could. We tried to get some juicy questions, some fun questions for you guys. I had a blast. And I'm about to go inside and watch the very first episode of the paper.

So stay tuned. I have a feeling it's going to be. be good. Thank you. First one. First one done. He just said, I'm not a virgin anymore. Cute.

Yay. So much fun. That was so good. What was the best part of the experience, Susie? I think it was just learning as we were going through. Like, I was so nervous going in. And I've, like, not really been that nervous for work stuff in a long time, I think. like it was just I was like scared I was like oh my gosh like these are people I watched on the office like I was a huge fan of the office and they're like suddenly in front of me and I'm like wait I see you as your character but you're a real human and then I just getting into it and getting into the flow of it and then like actually having good rapport with them and feeling like we were just like having fun in the interview I was like oh it just felt like a really like big moment of growth I think for all of us I was like this is just so incredibly fun and exciting and and

And it just felt like a really good learning experience. I was like, this is amazing. So I think just being there and growing and learning. Yeah. You did a great job. Thanks, guys. Yeah, you killed it. Everyone killed it.

The whole team. We all worked together. That's amazing. Well, thanks for doing that for us. And hopefully many more to come. All right. Up next, we have not that cosmic. She was the one who called it first some time ago that Taylor, Nick, and Ace from Love Island, USA.

That friendship was not. going to last long. It certainly didn't. The fallout has been messy. We'll get into it, but let's start by bringing on not that cosmic to get her analysis on the situation. And maybe she'll be able to give us a little bit of a read on, since she's making predictions. I wonder if she's made a prediction on Nickelandria based off of their chart. So let's bring her out and get the astrology analysis that you are all desperately waiting for. If you're a bread girly like me, then you should make the switch to Hero Bread. I love bread, love all kinds of bread, but I don't like sometimes how certain breads out there make you feel bloated.

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A couple of my other favorites are the fits everybody crossover brawlet and the fits everybody t-shirt brawl. Shop my favorite bras and underwear at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop-down menu that follows. Well, welcome to the show. Should we call you Audrey or not so cosmic? We can go with Audrey for now. Well, Audrey, we found your clip online and you called it. Like, I don't know how long ago you made that clip,

but you called the fallout of Ace Taylor and Nick at a time where many people thought this was, you know, maybe the next PPG or just, you know, the next great bromance from reality TV. But, like, it didn't hike long for this trio. to start fighting, you know, online in interviews, people are being thrown under the bus. So I would just love, you know, I'm not necessarily someone who follows astrology that closely, but when you hit it right, you hit it right, and you were definitely one of the first

people online, maybe the first, to call this breakup. So we figured we'd bring you on, and we'd love to hear you, how'd you come up with this? Can you give us a little bit of analysis? Can you explain to our audience why the star said that these three men would not be friends. So I made a video in the middle of June so the season had only barely begun and originally I just wanted to make a video

about the three of them because I saw them becoming a tree and I was like, oh, I'd love to see what their relationship is like and what's going between them. But I was as I was looking and going through and especially once I got to Ace and Nick I was like, hmm, wait a minute I'm like, they don't look super close.

I'm like, I'm not seeing a ton of friendship in here. I'm not seeing a ton of like love and harmony. And I was like, wait a minute. Do they not like each other? I'm like, I don't think Ace likes him. And I was a little bit worried to say that. I definitely didn't want to go online and tell everyone that the trio brothers weren't going to stay together. And it did not age well at the time, but it has aged well since then. But honestly, the biggest issue between the two of them is they're just very opposite of each other. And having a bunch of oppositions isn't a bad thing. It just means. that someone does something differently than you, which can be a good thing or a bad thing.

You can either, you know, learn something new from someone about how to execute differently, or it just seems like someone is always trying to do the opposite of what you're trying to do. And so I think Ace just kind of started to feel a little bit irritated with Nick, maybe so to speak, with the way that he was acting and behaving opposite of him. So, yeah, and I feel like, you know, trios always end up becoming duos at some point. And I think we got really lucky with PPG, and I don't think we could have that perfect combination a second time. So what was it that was different in their charts? So all of the personal planets that have to do with things like how you regulate yourself, how you like to communicate with others, what your values and morals are, all those things for them are opposite.

And so they just, they execute differently. They need different things to feel safe and secure. They communicate and reason with themselves in different ways. And they also just have different morals when it comes to relationships or just with life. And that can be, you know, romantic or just friendship relationships. And so having all those things opposite, it's not always easy to find common ground. But the one thing that really stuck out to me was that Nick's moon, which has to do with his emotions and his regulation and how he takes care of himself was on ace's neptune which is a planet

that can cause some like murkiness and confusion and disillusion and so it kind of seemed to me i'm like i don't think ace really understands who nick is either so aside from the fact that they're just so different i'm like i don't think ace really understands who nick is and what he stands for and what he's trying to do with his life and ace is a leo and for better for worse like leos like to be very authentic and they like to try to give themselves more authentically. So I think he probably felt like maybe Nick was being a bit shady or not showing himself clearly. So it kind of just was a recipe for disaster. And I guess when you first posted that was the response. Yeah, did you get flamed in the comments? Yes, I definitely got flamed. And even within like the past few weeks,

they were like, oh, well, you were wrong about this. Like they seem super close now. You were wrong about this. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, that's okay. But then I was just, I'm in the process of moving right now. And all of a sudden, I just get flooded with comments. Like, you were right. Oh, my gosh. Even on a podcast, you're right. I'm like, oh, my gosh, what happened? And so it's, um, they call it astrologer good where like, obviously I'm not happy that they're fighting, but I was like, okay, but I was right. So, astrologer good. Did you predict? I don't, and I saw the clip of your video, but maybe I didn't see the whole thing, but did you predict any type of timeline because in my experience like when it comes to reality TV you have to

give it a few you have to give it one year for these relationships to really play out how they would in the real world outside of the pressure and the outside influences that being on TV and all the kind of bullshit that like these people have to like consider like the real friendships it's it takes a least a year. So the fact that you called this and they couldn't even get to like two months post the villa, I think is not only you getting it, but it's a smash hit because like even if they would have taken eight months to break up, I would have said you called it. Yeah. I think what makes this just year as a whole interesting is there's just a lot of very interesting and whack astrology going on. I think we can all feel that with just everything that's going on the world.

you know there's just a lot of changes happening and all the changes are happening very quickly and so i think it was kind of a thing where there was so many transit that were causing so many irritation like all of them were just getting hit and punched with things way faster than they would have otherwise both in the villa and right when they got out of the villa so i kind of knew it was going to be really tense when they all first got out and there was going to be some hostility still there and now we're in a point where some of those planets are going retrograde now and when plans go retrograde, you have to kind of go back and revisit some of the things that were going on when things were still direct. So now, not only are they still feeling that hostility, now they have to

go back and relive and rehash some of these things. So it's just kind of a unique situation that this specific cast is going through. Did you make any other, did you study like Iris and Pepe or Amaya and Brian? Did you look at anyone else's and find anything similar? Nothing terribly similar. I will say I thought Shelly and Ace's compatibility is very interesting. I remember looking at their chart when all the rumors were coming out that they were married and already had babies and stuff. And I was like, okay, well, let's look at this. They are close together. I think that they do well together.

But I do see signatures in their chart that they could end up getting married or they embody what the person would want in a marriage. I was like, okay, that is interesting. I'm like, if they are secretly married, that would make sense. Okay. Iris and Pepe, they do actually have a ton of oppositions between them as well, so I wasn't super hopeful that they were going to make it last, but I was glad that they were there for each other in the end. I obviously couldn't foresee that this terrible thing would happen between them, but you couldn't see the woman on Snapchat posting that she slept with Pepe in his chart.

No, the stars don't give you like extremely specific things like that. No, I wish they could. That would be really helpful for some people but what about i mean i have to ask nicolandria uh who right now receiving ace's wrath of doubt in hostility but do the stars say anything about the potential of nicolandria i think they could work i think my concern comes with like the longevity aspect i think that their like lifestyles in their routines are just a little bit different so i think long term they may find that they just aren't like soul partners for the rest of their lives. But there's a lot of like mercurial influence between the two of them. So I think that they really enjoy being around each other. I think they're very like

stimulated by each other. They have a lot of fun. They don't run out of things to talk to. They obviously work really well together. Like their brand deals are all going really well right now. But they do have like a Mars opposition. So they do just take action very differently. So that over time could cause some arguments like a they call it like a tit for tat relationship um an example of a mars opposition we've had in the past was caler and aaron so you could kind of see how it's like you're trying to you're trying to do the same thing but you're doing it an opposite way so you think the other one is wrong but you're both trying to get the same way and you just can't reason with it the thing is is like if nick and o'landria really truly love each other they will make anything work but they do

have some difficult transits both of them have difficult transits coming up So I'll be intrigued to see, especially in this next month, we have eclipses coming up in O'Andrea's first and seventh house, which is like the relationship access. So I could see them either like becoming official or breaking up. But Nick in particular also is going through a lot right now. He's just going through a lot of changes. I think he's very just confused about the person that he is. I mean, rightfully so with what he's going through now. So I don't think what we're seeing right now is going to be the end of the story. So I think we kind of have to see how it plays out to see if they. really, really want to make this work or if they're just going to go their separate ways. Could anything in their chart explain why, despite you predicting the fallout of Ays and Nick, explained why they at least had the short-term friendship that they had on the show and in the villa? Yeah. So the three gangl of boys we had, they all had similar-ish-Mars signs. And that can just show, you know, like how we like to take action, how we like to have fun. So I think as a whole, they all just enjoyed having fun the same way.

I think they kind of had similar banter. They enjoyed goofing off in similar ways. And what I did notice is that like Ace, like Taylor kind of brought all three of them together. He was kind of the glue keeping them together because Taylor was really, really close with Ace and then also has some really sweet sinistry with Nick. So I think having Taylor there helped them all just have more fun. but then I think once Taylor left, those differences probably started to show up a little bit more. Wow. And are you following any other relationships on reality TV right now? Not super closely. I feel like after Love Island ended, social media was just a bit

a little bit crazy. So I took a little bit of a brain break. But I'm excited to watch Love Island games. I just watched perfect match. I didn't look up all their charts, but I had a lot of fun watching that. So hope I can kind of learn more about all of that soon. So would you, do you want to go on the record by saying that Nick and Alandria, based off their chart, could in the short term, either define, like, are you saying that it's going to be like a definitive decision one way or the other? They're going to either define the relationship in the next few months or call it a day? Yeah, I think I could say within the next month, especially, we'll definitely hear something about that.

Okay. All right. Well, hopefully you heard it here first. first, Audrey, also known. It's Not That Cosmic. We really appreciate you taking the time so much fun. Hope to have you back. Can you, anything you want to plug? Where can people follow you and enjoy what you're doing online? Yeah, you can find me at Not That Cosmic on X, on TikTok, on Instagram. I'm going to start posting again next week about new stuff. My readings are sold out right now, but those will open again sometime next month, hopefully. But yes, just excited to keep going. Thank you so much for having me. This has been. lovely. Thank you so much for coming. That was so much fun. And I hope to have you back in the future, Audrey. Amazing. Thank you so much. All right. That was great. I need to get on her list. Me too. Can I get on the wait list? It'll be really interesting to see if she gets that right. Guys, I just feel like this whole ACE stuff is crazy to me. Sierra, you listen to his episode?

I did. I listened to it on two times speed, but give us the big takeaways because I want to make sure that like, you know, I've seen a ton of clips from the interview. I want to make sure. that we're not doing what so many people do with our show that sometimes we get frustrated with, which is like people will take clips or even edit clips or remove things that we say and take things out of context. So I want to, I just want to make sure that we're not speculating or or changing the context of the interview that Ace gave because it really seems like he is in my read like throwing his friends under the bus. He seems to be throwing even Elandria under the bus. Well, let's get what? Well, let's just hear. Give us the breakdown, Sierra, of the Ace interview

that everyone's talking about. Yeah, it's where do you want to start? He's throwing production under the bus saying that he was influenced to keep Huda when he didn't want to, to keep Taylor talking to Alandria when he didn't want to. He also claimed that he had talked to production about not wanting a villain edit and then, you know, being surprised at the fact that he didn't, in fact, get a villain edit. When he was asked about the relationship between Nicolandria and if he thought that it was real, he proceeded to be silent. Yeah, I saw that clip.

Yeah. Throwing the shade. And then he was like, I'm going to take by your response or no response that that is the response. And he was just kind of like, you know, pretty much said that he wasn't on good terms with Nick at this point that the only people that he talks to are Alandria, Shelley, and Taylor. And so the interviewer kept being like, okay, well, you're clearly leaving out.

out Nick, who was one of your best friends on the show, and he was just like, you know, that Nick didn't have his back getting out of the villa and that he, like, holds his integrity close to him and that, like, when Nick had opportunities to defend him, that he didn't, but a lot of people are saying that Nick's been very public talking about, like, Ace's character and like that he's been backing him up. So I'm not really sure where that's coming from. Yeah, and is there any example of Nick talking shit about Ace? I don't think we really saw Nick talk shit about anybody, to be honest.

Didn't Nick get a fake ace tattoo on his back? Yes, he did. He's called him his best bud and the person he's closest to outside of the villa. And they were fine at the reunion. So that's the other thing, too. If you had all of this to say to Nick or about Nick, why wouldn't you air it out there versus on a podcast? Right.

Oh, also he got in the ace font, Nick. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like the ace, but it was. The man who was like, stand on business, stand on business, stand on business. Right. Did not stand on business at that reunion. Or against producers or. I mean, it felt like he was, like, coming for everyone, for everything he was doing himself. He's talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Like, if you're Mr. Stand on business and you're keeping it real, then why, you know, doing the whole classic reality TV thing is blaming producers. I thought you kept it so real. There's no metaphorical gun to your head. Producers certainly can have an opinion. They can ask, but like, hey, listen, like, it's a game. And if, and fine, maybe, maybe Ace felt like, oh, well, to stay, he had to do certain things. I promise you there were no threats made in production

because they don't do that anymore. I'm certain that Ace felt pressured by producers. But again, if he's keeping it so real, no one made him make the decisions that he made. Also, the fact that he suggested that he told producers he didn't want to be the villain as if that's just like a role he had an option to play and he didn't want to play it,

but the producers made him play the role anyways. And it's like, why did you think you would get, a villain edit. Like, he's so well versed in the, in reality TV and how it works that he felt he needed to go to producers and be like, hey, I know the way I've been behaving or whatever I've been saying might come off as a villain. So like, please don't use that and make me have a villain edit. It's also disrespectful to reality TV villains of old. I'm sorry, there has been some iconic reality TV villains. And it's disrespectful on so many levels. One, like, Ace isn't even a real villain. Like, credit to Ace, he has a large fan base. He has a large fan base. He has

fans he's both like popular in the streets and he's popular online sure he has some critics but for some of the villains out there who had like nine fans and like the entire internet hating on them like this is not what a reality tv villain is well now he is by his own making man his edit again you're quote unquote standing on business but like you you rip all of your peers for going on podcast at the reunion only for you to go on a podcast and throw them all under the bus and the and olandria who you claim to still be friends with you're also throwing her under the bus by throwing nick under the bus wait sierra didn't he say something about nick saying like he wasn't romantically into he said that there was like no romantic spark or that like nick had said that like he's obviously

attracted to her that they were both attracted to each other but it was coming from more of a friend place and that they were exploring it. So is he by indirectly accusing O'Landria of being in on it? Or is he accusing Orlandria of not picking up Nick's true intentions that Ace seems to be picking up? And like, is that being communicated to Alandria directly or is she hearing it via the podcast now? I mean, those are good questions because I'm kind of like, it sounds like he's trying

to imply that a lot of people, he actually did say that a lot of people were not there for the right reasons. He was like, I already had followers. I already had Clout. Like, I didn't need to go in there for that. So he was kind of insinuating that he was the only one there for the right reasons. But like, he's saying he has a lot of respect for Alandria. But then I'm like, you're literally saying that like she's either agreeing to be in a relationship solely for clout or that she doesn't know that this guy isn't into her. I also feel like people assume that if you're famous, you're making money. But like, you have to be likable to an extent. I feel like. And I'm I feel like Ace came in with a lot of followers.

Yeah, but I feel like he came with a lot of followers and it's like, okay, you feel a lot of big numbers, but like, was he getting brand deals? Was he actually making money? And now he went on the show claiming, oh, I'm here for the right reasons. Nobody's there for the right reasons. Like, you're on Love Island. It's okay. You're just there to have fun and like, you know, get around and make money, whatever and

like have a good time. But it feels like he's pointing the finger at everybody. And I'm like, I think he's just intimidated by all these guys who are actually likable and getting opportunities. Yeah, like, Ace clearly has a lot of, like, good characteristics. You know, he's very intelligent. He is strategic, and as a strategic guy, I don't have any even a problem with that, but, like, where his immaturity is showing, and I said this on last Thursday's episode,

he's reminding me of when I was 18 and I had a girlfriend and my buddy had a girlfriend and their girlfriends were friends and I wanted to be the most in love couple. And, like, Ace is mad, not because he's the villain, because he's not the favorite couple. And he's being really petty about it. And also, like, he's talking out of both sides of his mouth on so many levels. Because, like, we've talked about this before. There's, there's internet famous and there's mainstream famous. And maybe Ace had a bunch of followers.

I mean, there are YouTube stars with 15 million followers that, like, the average person hasn't heard of that can go into, go to a Chipotle and no one noticed them. And now Ace and Shelley can't walk outside of their apartment and go to any major city without being treated like A-less celebrities for the next couple months. And like there's, and for A's to sit there and suggest that like he regrets going on only because he wanted to meet Shelley, which by the way, I'm not so sure anymore that like they didn't have a relationship prior to coming into the villa because he seems to be outing himself in that same interview, he kind of stepped on it and accidentally made it

seem like when he saw her at the club because he recognized her online that he got her number and then he like backtracked a little bit as if he like caught himself saying something he wasn't supposed to say maybe that was this like some kind of weird slip but like I don't know you guys remember like when the things happened in the villa like it was weird when he like went to a Maya right after matching with her and was like hey we can't touch each other it was weird when she tried to pretend that she was into Austin when there was no chemistry and there was so much chemistry from Ace and Shelley from the get and they tried to slow play their relationship which made no sense and it makes a lot of sense that they kind of had

they knew each other but it's this is wild to me like everything ace is doing right now is benefiting from his from from love island like he is not recognizing the fact that he is love island famous and that is very different than going you know being like TikTok live famous yeah and he also threw them under the bus production as well because they asked about the cold source outbreak Did they? Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh. And he, so that's where I'm like, I might be confusing his reaction to being like, KG or whatever, but like he wouldn't really answered. He said, I didn't get no cold sores. Like, you didn't see any cockroaches on my mouth, which I don't really understand the reference. But point being is that I'm like a production, especially a dating show, it's like they have to test for STDs. They have to test because they're going to have people kissing and challenges and like what not. So I'm like, you're also saying that essentially that the Love Island production team didn't do their do deal. Well, just a little BTS on reality TV. Testing positive for type 1 in your blood does not disqualify you. One doctor told me there wouldn't, reality TV wouldn't exist if that was the case.

Type 2 would get you disqualified. You can't get on if you test positive for type 2 herpes. But type 1, like 80% of the population has it in their blood system. So they wouldn't have a show as a long, a doctor once told me, which is kind of, hilarious. So was he shading Nick with the, like, cool, that's one thing that sounds shady. Yeah, 100% he was. Yeah.

Right. And I think Taylor did a live where he was watching the interview and he was saying something about how Charlie and Nick were playing football or something and that's what happened or like that it wasn't a her, like a cold sore. But, I mean, I don't, I don't know. And then he saw Ace say what he said and was kind of like, well, I mean, I didn't see that. So I don't know if that's what was going on.

like I didn't notice it so like I don't know and has anyone responded to this podcast A's did I don't uh not that I know of besides seeing Taylor uh respond what did Taylor watching the live that's that's all he was saying he was kind of like watching it as the questions were going on and being like oh there wasn't herpes or like you know I didn't see that or whatever and then as soon as ace was like yeah like maybe uh then he was like okay well maybe I don't know but like he wasn't going against ace he didn't he didn't come to like Nick's full defense either being like, I mean, it also makes me question like Shelly and, you know, like her friendship with Elandria. It's like if that really is your girl, like I don't care how

Nick feels about whoever. Like if they're my friend, you're not about to go on a public platform and like blast their relationship and tell everyone it's fake and it's this and it's that. It's like. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there are so many instances in where, in which like you can, you have your girl and you may not love her boyfriend. And that is something that you can keep to yourself. Also, it's like it's one thing for us who like are just, we're fans of the show, we commentating on the show or people online to like speculate whether they believe in Nicolandria or they don't believe in Nicolandria. But these people are their alleged friends

who hang out with him. And for them to publicly go on on the record and throw shade and doubt their relationship, even if it was this a business transaction. which I would totally respect, like get your bag, both of them. And the fact they're just like, hey, if we're good friends, we're both hot, we both respect each other, we enjoy each other's company. Let's just like, let's just do this together. I have no problem with it. And the fact that Ace is calling it out is honestly potentially really costly to Nicolandria.

And like, it's just incredibly petty for him to go on record and call it fake. It's giving jealous. It's giving, we want your brand deals. It's giving like, you know, we're only friends as long as I'm the coolest kid on the block. It's a, I'm just kind of blown away just how quickly Mr. like I stand on business through all his friends under the bus when he wasn't the most popular couple out of the outside of the villa. So I was wrong. Alandria reportedly responded on Twitter saying, child, anyways, my event at Tuskegee went amazing yesterday. And then apparently she deleted that.

And then Nick had also posted on his Snapchat after the interview dropped, saying this morning, 10 out of 10 later in the day, 4 out of 10. Honestly, it's kind of giving the Jeremiah. It's like, I feel like Ace saw Jeremiah as such a threat at the beginning. And then he took him out. And then coming out of the villa, Ace maybe is seeing everything that's happening with Nicolandria and jealous. And he's like, yeah, I think Nick made a good point. It's like, if he's not the top dog, if he's not. the number one person he's going to sabotage people well speaking of taking people out should we get

into a little real housewives of orange county oh my god you're reading my mind reading your mind apparently there's been a little bit of a little back and forth katie janella is not going this was her last episode for a couple episodes apparently she's not ending she's not going on the trip the girl's trip to amsterdam yes yeah which is a little bit of a confusing reasoning because i heard she said it was because production was trying to protect her and then in that same vein it was the women don't want her there they were like not going to film they were trying to protect her against the women because the women were ganging up on katy is what katy was saying but then didn't the women also didn't i i read somewhere that the women were like we're not going to film if katy's

there oh wow so it's like how is production protecting her when it sounds like they really are like hey we need a show these women aren't going to film with you so like you can't go because we need some shit to film it was a tough episode for katy she um you know they did the classic uh lie detector test on reality tv there is a lot of speculation on the reliability of light detectors test in general they don't hold up in the court of law and when they're on reality tv shows i think they're even slightly less reliable are they even real results how much production is at play Well, before we get into what happened, let's give a little rapid recap for those who did not watch this past episode of Real House Vives of Orange County. Jean, the Machine is still pulling.

Shannon wishes she had his Riz. Kiki Monique comes in firing on all cylinders, said Katie told her about naked wasted and implied Gina was kind of racist. Emily killed some goldfish and eggs, her own house, to throw a Persian New Year's party that is just a Trojan horse to take a lie detector test. This is Shannon's personal nightmare. Also, Tamara shows up uninvited. Apparently, everyone told the truth during the test, but they failed some, so make that make sense. According to the test, Shannon is a truth teller. Jen trusts Katie, but not Ryan completely.

Heather would rather be in Beverly Hills because of the commute, real, and did maybe call the Paps in Disneyland. Gretchen didn't go to the hospital, which means she lied when she told Tamara and Shannon she did. But also, Tamara reminds the audience that known liars can pass these tests. So do with that info with what you will. Katie flunked the test, but swears absolutely that she did not lie. Overall, does Katie seem like a Machiavellian liar, or do we think the test was rigged? Find out next week on the Real Housewives of Orange County. Justin hit us with a little bravo lore in regard to this particular administrator of said lie detector test.

Justin, can you give us a little bit of insight? Yeah, I mean, I do want to clarify the one that actually conducted Katie. is a female, so it's not the guy, but she's working with the guy. But essentially, this is a well-known polygraph administrator, whatever title you want to give him. We don't have to name him. But he's the one that did LVP's lie detector test when she left Beverly Hills. He's done like every person on the internet.

He did James Charles. And you can easily search his name and he's been exposed by many influencers that if you pay him enough money, he'll give you whatever result you want. Allegedly. Or is this been proven or is this all alleged? It's alleged people that have worked with him that have tried to book him. And I'm like, you're sitting here telling me that when we sit here and watch Gretchen lie to Tamara's face about going to the hospital, but she passes with flying colors, that she tells the truth and nothing about the truth. And the same thing with LVP, we know she leaked stories that radar online, but clearly they did it twice.

We know she shot it twice with him and he asked it two different times and that they aired the one where she passed. So like that being said, Katie's poker phase was not very good. She failed my lie detector test. I'm sorry. Justice for Katie. Yeah, justice for Katie on my end too, because I'm like, I feel like that's such a nerve-wracking thing. when you know that all of these people fucking hate you and you're like trying to defend yourself and you're on your own, you're nervous that it's like, oh, I've never done a lie detector test

before. Like, I don't know what they're picking up. And when she was like, it doesn't pick up anxiety. I'm like, yes, the fuck it does. That's literally. Your heart rate is spiking. Yeah. Should you be administering this test, ma'am?

Yeah. I kind of feel the same way about TV lie detector tests as I do about like TV therapy on Housewives where I'm like, sure. Mm-hmm. Talk about it, if you will. I'm like, yeah. I definitely wouldn't put it past Emily to like slip him a couple extra hundred bucks to like Emily was egging her own house. She is capable of anything.

Oh, wow. Yeah. That's so true. But we did have Kiki Monique come in and be like, hey, she told me this. So it's a little bit of a game of like, who do you believe Kiki, Gretchen, Katie? But it's like, I believe that Gretchen told Katie this. I believe that Katie repeated it, not. thinking, I mean, obviously, like, that's sensitive information. I don't know how this conversation

came about. Like, if this was just loosely given out, because they said that Gretchen brought it up out of nowhere, that if she was like, oh, my God, yeah, and this one time, like, if she just thought this was, like, flipping information that, like, close friends or insiders would know, how would she know unless it was said, do not repeat? And then this whole, like, slayed calling and whatnot, then I'm like, so did you already have this conversation with Kiki Monique and then come to find out or right before filming this season? Like, I need a timeline. I need receipts. I need Heather Gay. Yeah. It felt shitty that she repeated it, but I agree. I feel like Gretchen said it. That's what I'm receiving. And I'm new, but I'm like, based on watching it, I'm like, no,

that's what feels like happened. And she shouldn't have told that, especially to a blogger. I think we nailed it. Well, if you, if you ask Kiki Monique, she is definitely not a blogger. She's a journalist. A journalist. Okay. I think we talked about this last week. I think Katie has told a few lies in her days. And I, and I think that seems to be clear. I think she talks to bloggers and she talks to other people in this space and she gossips a little bit. And yes, I think she is frustrated as the rookie. I think she's doing what she thought everyone does. And apparently there are some how-toes and how to not do the blogger world. And I think these women are piling on Katie. And I think Katie's truth is I'm not the only one lying,

so to speak. And I think that's why I think that's why she's standing firm with what she's saying. She's clearly, like, not telling the truth about, like, gossiping about Gretchen. I think it's just kind of like she's being put in a situation where anything that she's saying is being used against her in a way that they don't care about the intention. They don't care. They're treating her like she is the first person to ever gossip with Kiki Monique. Well, and that's the other thing, too, to Natalie's point last week where it was just like, nobody is commenting on how quickly Gina had that number to pull up. Like, it's just like, you all have journalists numbers. You all have bloggers numbers in your phone.

It's the ecosystem. I would have to send a DM and hope you open it. Yeah. Yeah, they flew past Heather, Heather being called out for lying about the paparazzi. Yeah. It was Katie's one win, and they didn't even give her that. They didn't. But then Gina passed her question about the real estate context that Heather didn't care about, but needed to ask it.

Not, not Jen being. And honestly, follow your gut, Jen, you know. Yeah. You're worried about marrying. Ryan. Ryan. But she trusts Katie, which, but then doesn't stand up for her. It's very interesting.

I don't believe this test. I don't either. It's adding more confusion to the pot. I was like, Tamara even figured out how to like get around it where she was like, well, I answered guess. And here's my long paragraph as to why I answered the way that I did. I mean, I'm definitely frustrated with Shannon and Tamara because they literally asked Gretchen, what, a week ago? if she went to the hospital and she said yes. And so now that she's sitting there and she's on the lie detector,

she's being like, did you go to the hospital and her saying no? And then passing that, why did not, Shannon and Tamara weren't like, wait a minute, bitch, you told us last week that you did go to the hospital. Yeah. And that's what we're saying where it's like, I feel like justice for Katie a little bit because I'm like, we're sitting here finding out all of these lies that are being told that have been told for seasons for years. And you guys are supposed to be close best friends.

But we're all just like, let's attack this one new girl. Yeah. And it's also like you have Tamara in her interview being like, well, Gretchen is a known liar. And it's like you're not going to say that to defend fucking Katie. Like I feel like Tamara's going to wait and use this in a couple weeks, you know? Oh, 100%. Yeah, yeah, she's got her in her back pocket once Katie isn't there. Be careful what you wish for because when you take the subject of your vitriol out of the equation, it only maybe puts a target on you.

So it'll be interesting to see which of the women are going to. regret not having Katie on this trip yeah if you can't project everything onto her yep you have to deal with your own yeah Tamara hasn't been kind of defending Katie in the comments if you've seen oh really or like just interacting with her there was a post that Katie did wearing the outfit from this episode saying like another amazing outfit wasted and then like Tamara responded like you look gorgeous or something like that so like I'll be very frustrated if Katie is removed from this cast after the season me too I just wouldn't be fun for anybody to join this this cast if this is what you're going to do every time a new person joins and plays the game.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, you're going to have a really boring season of Emily and Gina making TikToks if that's what we're going to end up doing. Yeah. Oh my God, the TikToks. Gina killed a trend. I know. Emily killing a goldfish. I missed that. You missed her killing the goldfish. She put goldfish in her centerpiece for the party and then she was like, a couple of them die. Goldfish die if they, if you like look at them the wrong way, though. Okay, but still, I was like, all this for a party that's a scheme for a lie detector test? Fish can feel pain, they proved it. No, I don't know about them, but they are fish.

Aren't they, like, known to be like the dumbest. Oh, I think goldfish are known to be like the dumbest fish, right? Okay, but just because they're dumb. I mean, I don't know math. I know a lot of dumb people who feel pain. Yeah. Well, that does it for Real Housewives of Orange County. Let's move on to the Real Housewives of Miami.

if you miss the last episode. Here is your rapid recap. The girls go to Marabella for the day. But before that, Gertie's very cool glasses finally answer the aged old question. What would John Lennon look like if he was a diva who ate? The Sojay air drama continues.

And baby, there is a plane. Alexia and Marisol just don't want to fly on it. This will cause an issue. In Marabella, Lisa serves Jennifer Coolidge in White Lotus. War sunglasses, met a gay guy, got divorced. Julia asked the gay guy Lisa met to be her kid's godfather. Marisol confuses Stephanie.

by being nice and throwing her a cool birthday party. Also, Stephanie is mad at Alexia because she likes Marisol more than her plane and they got into a huge fight. Stephanie comes to the realization that Marisol is the issue in her eyes and asks Jesus to not let her bleed out because there are a lot of knives in her back. Kiki and Adriana make up. Overall, what do you guys think of Marisol and Richard Darling Dick? Branson, the Virgin Airlines guy talk about.

Find out next week on the Real Housewives of Miami. Yeah, Charles Branson? That was a flex. with Dick Branson. Darling Dick Branson. I want to rewind a little bit back to O.C., sorry. But, like, I was, during the lie detector test, they asked Gina if her boyfriend had big balls. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. They keep talking about his balls. Every episode. Yeah, there's a, she had, like, the center piece. Are you guys aware of your man-sized balls? So of curiosity? Yeah. Mary?

Yeah. Well, actually, speaking of balls, actually, so my cat, George Michael, I got him fixed and then when I took him to the vet No, no, no, no, no, literally, right? So I take him to the vet a while ago to, like, get him a checkup, and it's the vet where I got him fixed at and the vet goes, he, like, cups

his balls and he goes, did you get him fixed? And I was like, yeah, here. And he goes, oh, they might still be swollen. And I was like, okay, and I was, and he was like, it's nothing to worry about. So, hey, Travis, I understand you.

Travis's balls just might still be swollen. I just never really realized that's like, like, have you ever paid attention to the size of Connors' balls? Of course. Of course. Okay. Susie, did you pay attention to Justin's balls? Of course. They're there.

Yeah, I feel like there's nothing out of the ordinary, but like, you know, yeah, a little curiosity. You know from the last pair that you didn't see. Exactly. There's a size different. I feel like if you notice, really? Like, I didn't know you think the ball size was something you ladies were. Well, I wouldn't necessarily even say, like, I'm not necessarily noticing, like, size. I feel like I've had consistently, like, normal balls throughout my life.

So I've never, yeah, I've, yeah, I guess I might have a type. But no, I've never noticed anything crazy anywhere. But I think if there were abnormally large balls, I would notice that. I definitely make sure I stay up to date with the size of, not necessarily the size of Nick's balls, but my sister is in a marriage and her husband's 18 years older than her and she's, you know, a little bit older than me. So she's always warning me about the balls and the sagginess that does occur. And so I just like to keep up with like where, you know, where are they hitting? Have they dropped a little bit farther? So wait, you are, you are judging how well I'm aging by how

my balls are looking and I didn't even know this. Aren't you happy you asked? Yeah, exactly. I'm doing a lot down there. Yeah, men should talk. about this more. When I'm down there, I'm thinking about a lot, you know? I don't know to something I would tell him. I feel like if women have to deal

with comments about their boob sagging, men should have to deal with comments about their balls. By all means, shame us, shame away. Like, I was just like, this is all very insightful for me.

Like, I have to think about something, you know? I'm making the grocery list. I'm checking the length of the balls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Asking if they touch the water yet. Exactly.

Any ball fetishes in the room? No. Not for me. Nobody. Nobody. Yeah. Maybe Gina. Maybe that's where this is coming from.

Maybe Gina. Okay. No, thank you. So Miami? Miami. Yeah. Just balls flying past my eyes. Right.

No, I'm picturing a lot in my head. I'm not going to lie. A lot going on. Yeah. A lot going on up there. Miami. Okay. You got Gertie's glasses.

Yes. Square. Circle inside. Pretty cool. I'm not going to lie. I liked them. I thought she looked great. Okay.

Shout out Gertie. I do have to ask that Lisa was really funny to me this episode because I'm like, she lived on Star Island. I'm pretty positive. Like, I'm like, she's been around rich people. Why is she acting like this is the first time that she's been around rich people? Did y'all see her in the back of the plane as soon as like the lights got off turned off? The music came on. She like ran from the back with like her Instagram story out to like film some content.

Well, she also did just finalize her divorce. So maybe she was like, this is my divorce era. I'm on a private jet. Like, I'm going to this island and meeting this gay guy. I need to be elegant. Elegant, yeah. You know, I mean, like, can you go, can you be an influencer and on a PJ and not take that content? I'm like, can I eat food and not?

Right. Literally. Can I get a coffee and not take a picture of the top of the coffee? Susie, have you been on a PJ? I've never been on a PJ. No, nor have I. No. Yes.

Oh. Three. Oh. You're not going to ask me. Yeah, can we get a little info on that? Friends birthday party to Mexico after the pandemic. Oh, okay. So I wasn't flying commercial and we were COVID tested.

A bachelorette. A bachelorette and I think one more trip to Mexico. Yeah. Iconic, okay. Sierra is bougie. Yeah. Love that. Very boogie, boge.

That isn't my aesthetic. In case you guys are wondering, I haven't been on a PJ. I know that's really surprising. I'm shocked. Yeah. We got a clarification on Ratchet versus Rretched. Oh, yeah. Rretched.

That is not what she meant to say. Honestly, kind of sounds the same when she says it. It does. I really love Stephanie in the beginning of this season, but, like, she really is kind of turning me off with this, like, throwing the plane and then being shocked that people are upset about her throwing her plane around. Like she literally did exactly that they said, you're a little bossy. And then she flipped on Julia in the car on the way to the airport being like, well, then you don't, I'm not bossy enough for you to not come on my plane. And it's like when you throw those things around, like it doesn't make anybody want to hang out with you. Yeah. Like I don't, you shouldn't be holding this over somebody's head. Right. It's like if she's going to continue. If she's going to bring up the fact that I was on her PJ for the next year, like I'm just not going to go because I don't want to hear about it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and I get. Alexia and Marisol were like, I pass.

It's like, like, larcistic defending her being like, she spent $40,000 and you guys aren't acting grateful. And it's like, she didn't have to. These women are on a provo show. They can get commercial flights. They can fly first class. They don't need to be on your private jet. But the way that you're throwing it around, like, as if it's like your, your player card, it's,

it's not, it's not cute. That's just petty pippin. Petty Pippin. Well, then also you have like, Stephanie. Not petty pippin. Lisa ate with that one. She did. She did.

She did. Well, you also have, like, Stephanie being so taken aback that Marisol would have thrown her this, like, nice birthday party and acting as if that's a dig towards her. I just don't, I'm like, what? Make it make sense. Marisol's being two-faced essentially because she thinks that she's talking shit. And that's what I'm saying where I'm like, Stephanie kind of, like, added in. But Stephanie's also being kind of two-faced. Like, they all are.

That's their housewives. Because I'm saying, I don't think Marisol's even talking shit about her either. But she's kind of making it out, like, as if it's like, oh, now Marisol's the problem because she's infected the well with Alexia to not want to come on my plane. But in reality, Alexa, Alexia just doesn't fuck with you. Yeah. It is confusing, though, because Marisol planned the birthday party before and then she was mad at her.

So for Stephanie, she's like, wait, but she's mad at me, but there's a birthday party and she doesn't know the logistics of when it was planned. So it does look two-faced. Is it a birthday party or is it like a birthday performance that we all in the whole cast and up coming by on horse carriage and we stay happy. Performance for a two-second clip of the show. Yeah. But I will say props to Stephanie for praying to Jesus Christ asking about not letting her bleed

out because there are knives in her back. That really made me laugh. I was like, that is the Lord's Prayer if I've ever heard it. The ending argument scene was crazy. Yeah. I don't even know what was happening. I feel like the camera guys weren't even like they didn't know who to follow. All of a sudden I got Lisa jumping in being like lumpy, bumpy.

And I was like, what's the rest of the sentence? No, the cameraman that was following Kiki and Gertie, they knew what to follow. Kiki and Gertie were like, this is great. They said, now that's Ratchett. I think it was a great episode, and I'm really interested to see them go to Richard Branson's, I'm assuming, Island. That is crazy. I love that he's a housewife. We love an honorary housewife. It was definitely very white, low-ed-coded this episode.

It was. I loved it. Do you like my beautiful, my beautiful men? Yeah, sure. Well, up next we have Jesse Hildebrand, the niece of Jody Hildebrand, who is now serving time for some horrific crimes that she committed with Ruby Frankie. I'm sure many of you have heard of this story. And if you haven't, you were not going to miss this interview. Just a heads up, trigger warning. Obviously, we are covering some very sensitive topics, including child abuse and things like that.

So, you know, it's definitely a bit of a tone shifter of this interview. but certainly a very fascinating story hearing from Jesse, who is also a survivor and obviously has, you know, continues to work through this, has worked through it. It's very powerful. And we really appreciate them taking the time to share their experience with us and just talk about this, really just this insane, crazy story.

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It's really a pleasure. Thank you for taking the time. No, it's a pleasure, definitely. I guess just first question, and obviously, you know, this is a very sensitive topic and a very traumatic story. And again, we just want to express our appreciation watching this document. And I'm sure it is the case for anyone who is familiar with this story, who watches this documentary, even for people not involved. It's very triggering.

It's very uncomfortable to watch because there's just so much horrific abuse. And anytime children are evolved, it's just really hard, obviously, to digest. Obviously, you are one of these victims who had to deal with Jody's abuse. A very difficult story to watch. It's just very triggering for even people like Natalie and I who are new parents, anyone in my family. involved, but obviously for you, the real victim, one of the victims of Jody. What was the reason for you wanting to participate in this docu-series that obviously must have been, you know, difficult to participate and talk about and obviously re-watch?

There are, I think there are a few different reasons. I think probably the main reason, though, is I felt that in truly understanding how and why something to this magnitude and horror happened, you really have to understand Jody. And in order to understand Jody, I think there's so much unfortunate insight that I could offer

because she is someone that is so seemingly like, I mean, if you saw the series, in the beginning, she fooled so many people because her messaging is rather innocuous and if anything, it's rather empowering. And so it's like, she lured, people in and for it to result in something so heinous and so heartbreaking, I think a lot of people are left confused as to how and why and like, like, who in the right mind would fall for

this. But the thing about narcissistic, psychopathic, trauma, abuse is that it's intentionally made so it's like to be to be fallen for you know it's it's it's um very subtle it's very um what's the word little it's like very little by little they don't come out swinging it's not the first thing isn't like the heinous abuse it's like first feels very empowering it feels like she sees you she gets you she understands you she sees the pain so um i felt like i had some insight into her and her methods that maybe other people could benefit from. Yeah. It was interesting that you said that,

like one of the takeaways I got from watching it, you know, even on this show, I'm not a therapist, I'm not any type of professional. We have an audience and sometimes they ask us questions and we'll talk about relationships. And, you know,

I get therapy, my wife and I do couple's therapy. We learn from that experience and just watching this document. For example, you heard Jody talk about boundaries, right? You talk about, you know, the importance of that you, you know, the individual sets their boundaries and then communicates those. And those, that's correct, you know.

It's just like, these are very, like you said, innocuous, like seemingly, oh, this person knows the language of healthy behaviors in things like that. She's a professional. Yeah, it almost kind of gave me this icky feeling because, well, I'm always very careful to, hey, I'm not a therapist, you know, this is my opinion. I am in no way, you know, take it or leave it type of thing. It really just goes to show the power we all have when people come to us in a very vulnerable state and just how scary it can be and how easy it might be to influence someone in a negative way. And it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's really scary to think

about these very positive messages and how they can be manipulated in such a toxic way. Yeah, especially I feel like within this demographic of people, you know, a lot of the clientele maybe like disempowered, disenfranchised women and within the context of the church, a Mormon church, you know, telling a woman that she's empowered and has, you know, she's allowed to have boundaries, especially, I feel like the word boundary is something that oftentimes is misunderstood. And the way that even in the dokey series, she says, you know, a boundary is something that you do. It's not about the other person. Like, you're not supposed to manipulate the other person. But it also is quite interesting and disturbing to me that, like, I feel like two of the words that she

uses so often in this, like, binary that she presents is that there's truth and there's distortion. And you're either in truth or you're in distortion. And yet her whole method is taking truth and distorting it for manipulative purposes. And so she tells on ourselves continuously and constantly throughout the series and throughout her messaging is like distortion, truth. And that's all she is doing. Did you in real time like know what was happening was wrong or was there just so much brainwashing and you were at such a young age that you were like, I. Honestly, like, I don't know. I had no idea. I thought what was happening was, I mean, she's my aunt. She's a professional. The church is promoting and supporting. And she's using the language and the religion that I was conditioned and brought up. And she's using that same language and those same principles. And the amount of emotional, spiritual and mental manipulation that's going on. And then I'm a child. So I have no idea.

And I was suffering from pretty bad religious OCD. So I was like very much perfectionist. I was like I deeply, deeply believed in the Mormon church. I'm deeply believed in the Book of Mormon. And so I very much believed that the reason I wasn't getting well and that I wasn't getting fixed was my own shortcomings. It wasn't, I wasn't praying hard enough. I wasn't believing enough. I wasn't being forthcoming enough.

I wasn't confessing correctly. I wasn't asking correctly. And so I 100% believed this. And even when I left Jody, because I ran away multiple times and then finally I ran away for good. Like I ended up in a homeless shelter in Salt Lake City under a fake name. Even doing that, I believed that I was failing. I was so weak. I couldn't withstand God's test and that I was a failure and that everything

that happened to me was because of that. That's so tragic to hear. Yeah. So even in your escape and running away, it sounds like it didn't feel like you escaping. It's almost like you internalized it as quitting. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I think that very much aligns with a lot of people, like a lot of the conditioning that the LDS Church instills in its members. Like, you have, even though it's proposed as like, you're saved by grace, it's very much, that's, it doesn't, it isn't really land that way in practice. Like, you are very much having to try harder, try harder, try harder, try harder, try harder,

try harder, try harder. And if it's not working, it's because you're not trying hard enough. It's interesting with this doc really focusing on Jody. I'm curious, I'm very, my wife has been found. the story since the beginning, I've certainly been aware of it. But the focus has really been really up into this point, Ruby. Obviously, she's the YouTube star. She's the quote-unquote famous one. And certainly she has, you know, deserves to be where she is right now. And she also is guilty of some very horrific things. But was it in any way frustrating for you to see more of the attention go to

Ruby and her crimes because of her infamy in fame and her celebrity where it almost felt like Jody was kind of almost getting away with it because she wasn't the focus of that that Ruby was getting. No, exactly. I mean, I understood. I understood why the focus was on Ruby. It was, you know, she was the, you know, famous one. They were for children. There was a, you know, documentation of her abuse over the years, like, by no means is Ruby, like, she's very much accountable for

this, but just knowing what, who and what Jody is, and knowing that, like, all of this method and this methodology is from the mouth of Jody. This is, like, Jody is the mastermind here. Ruby may, like,

this would never have happened without Jody. Like, yes, there would probably have been, you know, some fallout from Ruby putting her children online and being in like, there's like definitely going to be psychological effects and maybe some abuse from there. But the level of which this abuse was happening would not have happened without Jody. I fully believe that. And so the focus on Ruby, especially like on Kevin and like everyone being like, where was Kevin, where was Kevin? Like how could how could anyone do this to their child? And it's like this missing link, this like puzzle

piece that finally shows the entire picture. It's like Jody. And really to understand Jody, you need to understand the culture, the foundation, the structure of the Mormon church. And without those two components, Ruby doesn't really make sense. You just think, oh, she's just a psychopath. But really it's, if you really want to understand this, you really need to understand Jody. Yeah, it was interesting watching it. To your point, it paints a clear picture of, you know, lack of a better word, the evilness that Jody brought into this picture. There was one particular scene in the docu series, though, that I found really alarming. And it was when they were talking about Ruby before Jody came into the picture.

And it just, you know, to your point, so it's like, whatever, Jody, you know, to your point seemed like really capable, you know, she brought this forward into the heinousness that it was. But there was a moment when they were showing Ruby about to hit a million subscribers. Yeah. And she's in the car with her children driving going, I don't know how many miles. hours-per-hour watching this and then losing her shit because she missed the moment of going over a million. And it was just like the, it's like the, it was sad because like, you know, we're very much involved in this world of online influencing and we're certainly aware of the pitfalls

and the narcissistic poll that brings people away. But it was like, you saw the potential of why Ruby was so caught up in it. And I, you know, couldn't help but wonder if, you know, they always say, you know, predators are good at finding their praise, so to speak. And it was, it's like, it seemed like Jody saw this kind of person who was so easily manipulated because she was so caught up in the fame of being a YouTube star, so much so that she was completely disregarding her girl and children. Oh, absolutely.

Jody, I think something that Jody is, like, unbelievable. good at is seeing your weak points when I was living with her she would do this thing where she would just start throwing out accusations at you or throwing out verbal abuse and then watching for reactions and the moment something hits she'll drill into that and she's like truly like so incredibly good at this that it's really hard to explain it to people and so yeah I think like the the potential for Ruby to become what she became was

there. Like she is already this like personality type where like her ego and her fame and like the Ruby show was the most important thing. You know, willing to put all that's what I'm saying like there was still like abuse going on. But it would have been

more, it wouldn't have escalated to what it was to the point where it became torture and like and I don't use that like lightly. I mean that literally. That was the, Jody was the catalyst for that. But no, Jody saw that. She saw the potential and she also saw the level of influence that Ruby already had. She's like, oh, Ruby has this massive audience. I'm going to use that. I'm going to use this. She's very, very good at that. And like you said, like predators can smell this from a mile away. I'm guessing you saw the arrest online or did, did you hear about it through like family or friends? So I was in the middle of moving from Los Angeles to Seattle. Like, I was putting bosses into my U-Haul.

And I get this text from my cousin. And she's like, hey, how are you doing with the Jody News? And I was like, what do you mean? Like, what Jody News? And like my cousin and I, like, I don't really have a close relationship with anyone in my family. And so it was just kind of like a, whoa, my cousin's, texted me, wait, what? And then I googled Jody's name. And I, like, I just started hyperventilating and basically just like, not screaming, but like being like, oh my God. And I just like fell over.

And luckily my roommate at the time was there. And they are like one of my dearest friends. They're actually about to visit me in Berlin tomorrow. So they're like, they were there and just like held me and breathed through it with me. And I was. just in a state of complete shock and disbelief and not knowing what way was up and, like, what was happening was just, like, I couldn't process it. Did you ever think that she would face any repercussions for anything she had done? No, I think at one point, yes, when I was younger, so in 2012, when her, when she was put on probation. There was a Salt Lake Tribune article that was put out that I publicly commented on,

and I said, Jody Hildebrandt, this is my aunt, she's a monster. And I said, like, I promise you, this is not the last time you'll hear about Jody Hildebrand. And unfortunately, that article has been, like, since archived, and I can't find that response. But my family went crazy when they, when that, and Jody, like, lost it. I found out years later that she, like, dropped her son off at my grandparents and lest the country after I made that, that comment. And, but I think for my own well-being, I had to kind of put to rest the idea of any sort of, I don't know, vindication on my part. I kind of just, like, had to give up on that because even within my own family, like, there was no accountability, like, my parents or anything. There's no accountability.

There's no, like, even admitting it or, like, I wasn't even allowed to talk about it. And so for my own mental health and sanity, I had to just, like, kind of consciously and subconsciously just kind of give up hope that there would ever be any sort of, I don't know, her being held to any sort of accountability. Yeah, it was particularly tough to watch when you told your story, the participation your parents and your grandparents played. what do they realize what they were doing or they were caught up in their own religious trauma? How have you processed that? And is it just, you know, you mentioned you don't have a relationship with them. But do you separate, you know, the monster that is Jody with the involvement in your family played a role? Or do you kind of lump it all together knowing that like, you know, there was a part in that conversation where it's like nature versus nurture? It's just like,

what happened to Jody, you know, what abuse, did she experience something? Or is this someone just, like, is there a sociopathic, narcissistic person that, you know, maybe has always been there and she, and it found its way to reveal itself? How do you process that? Yeah, I mean, that's kind of been the reason, the question of the last, you know, 16 years. I think, at least at this point in my life, I think that it's both nurture and nature. I think Jody had the predisposition for this, you know, delusions of grandeur, narcissism. I think that was probably like there already. And then that was exacerbated by religion, religious shame, and then potentially trauma, probably trauma, just the snowball effect of everything in her life that led her to that point.

But I mean, it's, it's hard. I mean, there's been phases of my life that, like, I'm related to her. And I've had moments where I'm like, is this gene in me? And something that I feel like with people that have experienced narcissistic abuse and psychopathic abuse is they make you feel like you're the psychopath and you're the narcissist. And I remember thinking even while I was there that, like, I was the bad one. You know, she made me believe that, like, the reason why I was duct tape according to her was that every word that came out of my mouth was a lie and like that literally I like I was so good at manipulating and lying that I didn't even know when I was doing it and so I like to protect everyone we had to put duct tape on my mouth and I believed it I was like oh so then I so it took a it took so many years and there's still moments where I have this moment like like she was a musician I'm a musician

she's a therapist I'm interested in psychology like there were some parallels in our lives where like when I would notice those things it would really scare me and I've had to like I mean I've had a lot of therapy a lot of therapy to help me through these these kind of thought loops and whatnot so there's that and then you know she's my dad's sister and so then it's like well is this gene and my dad and like like like my dad is i would not say is a very empathetic person at all i think that empathy is something he really doesn't possess very much of and so then i'm like is this just a like a family trait and it's been exacerbated in jodi like yeah it's it to process this um i think with uh i'm not being very fluid in my response here there's a lot of uh parts oh yeah um but i think at least in regards to my mother, I have a lot of, often I have a lot of grace for her. You know, it's not all of the time, but often I find myself being like, okay, she was born in the 60s to a Mormon family of like seven kids, you know, raised in Salt Lake City, Utah. She married a lawyer

thinking her life was going to be this certain thing and then it wasn't. Were either of you raised in the Mormon church? No, but I was raised. I have 10 brothers and sisters, very Catholic. I had generally positive relationship with religion. That being said, fully aware of the shame. I'm not that religious anymore. Thankfully, I didn't experience many of the traumas at people in both Catholic. So I'm very familiar with the shame and the intensity and the dogma of religions like both. For your listeners and for you guys, I invite you, there's a really amazing content creator named Alyssa Grenfell, and she goes into a lot of like the detail about the ritualistic aspects of the Mormon church. She goes into like what happens in the temple. What are these like covenants that you're like like really gets into the nitty gritty about how the church hooks themselves into your psyche and your subconscious and into your life. and when my parents went through the temple back in the day they would have had to make a covenant promising they did these symbols like these motions through their neck through their chest and through their their stomach of promising that if they talk about it or break these covenants that they'll kill themselves and so the the level of psychological control that the Mormon church has on its on its people especially I think with the women like if I

I were, if I had been born, at the time my mom had been born, gone through the things that she had gone through, I probably would have ended up very much like her. And this lack of feeling like you have any power or, or like, the self doubt and the self hatred and the self, like the dealing with the shame. I mean, with like evangelical orthodox religions, you know, it's very punitive. It's very much like if you, it's very black and white, you're good or you're bad. And if you feel guilt, that must be because you're bad. And if you're bad, you must be punished. And so there's no real gray area to process fucking up. Or sorry, can I swear? Yeah, yeah. Messing up. And unfortunately, in my mom's case,

making a mistake to such I mean like like I know my mom like cares about me in her way like I know that she loves me but doesn't have I don't think the ability to look at herself. I don't think for her to like look at and admit to herself that she not only allowed

for this to happen but participated in the creation of that abuse like I think it would kill her And so she has just put on the blinders, which is also very much a thing in the Mormon religion. You're supposed to just put on those blinders. Like, don't ask the questions. Don't look into the, you know, the skeletons in the closet. Don't ask why black people weren't allowed to have the priesthood or about polygamy.

Don't ask those things. Just put on the blinders. I think my mom is very much a product of that. And it's just so unfortunate that she can take. to choose or sit in that reality. Do you think that there's any world in which your siblings or your parents will watch this docu-series? One of my brothers and his wife, I would say I have the most contact with them.

And they seem to be the most open and the most willing to acknowledge. Like, my brother, Madison and his wife reached out to me after Jody was arrested and apologized to me. And they're the only ones that apologize to me at all for anything. And my brother apologized that he had invited Jody to his wedding and, like, subjected me to be around her. And, you know, like, my sister apologized that it happened. But, like, I think it's really common for people. people to, there's like this weird annesia that I think happens with a lot of people when they like apologize for the event or like the thing, like they said that it happened, but then they

can't look at their participation or like how they also caused harm. But again, I think that just goes back to like high demand religion and shame. And that's something I wish the docu-series would have gone more into is, understanding how Mormonism is like the bedrock to this. Like you don't have Jody without Mormonism and you don't have Ruby without Jody. So I really wish they could have. I don't know why they didn't. The Mormon Church is that their net worth is like $293 billion.

And they had like a whole, you know, law. They have like hundreds of lawyers. So I'm certain that probably played a big part of it. To me, it all goes back to the Mormon church. What do you remember, you know, obviously, you told the story of how your, your, the dishes and how you didn't want to do them and you, and you went into the basement and then you, you realized that your, your parents and your family had left you there. Yeah. At what point did you, were you able to tell your parents or your siblings the abuse that you were going through? I was arguing. I had left.

At no point during my stay with Jody was I ever, I wasn't allowed to talk to my siblings. Also, like, my parents didn't tell anyone what was happening. So my siblings also didn't really know what was going on. My friends, I wasn't allowed to speak to any of my friends. My friends had no clue. They thought, like, they were like, when I finally came back to California after, you know, Jody and homelessness, I found out that my like some people thought I was dead people thought I had gotten pregnant and that I was sent away people had I gone to rehab they had no idea and I lost pretty much all

of my friends because of this they were you know upset I mean I was a teenager so like and they were teenagers so they didn't really understand but no I it wasn't until afterwards there was a moment after I had gotten out and I had been found by a detective almost like when I was homeless, um, that my family wanted me to go get a physical to make sure that I was healthy because when you're a homeless teenage girl, things unfortunately happened. And I found out during the appointment that it was actually said by Jody. And this doctor was one of her clients and he was telling me one he told me that i had no soul literally he was like he set up this premise as to like how people can have problems with their soul but i don't

qualify because i don't have a soul like a medical doctor told me that i didn't have a soul and that like thankfully jodi and like brought in jody and i was like so stunned by all of this that by the time I got out of the doctor, my grandma, my grandma had taken me. I just, like, lost it and erupted. And I was, like, so beyond shocked and angry. And then, like, it didn't, I just couldn't get away from it. And my parents tried to get me back in with Jody multiple times after everything. They tried to, like, lie to me and get me into, like, going to dinner with her.

And, like, it didn't just end. like it continued as well and then they also tried to get me to do her connections classroom like a couple years later they were like we did it it helped us so much you should do this and i'm like are you out of your absolute goddamn mind like so it's it didn't just yeah to be able to tell them like i remember one time i was telling my brother he worked and lived with her for years afterwards and basically basically built connection classroom. Oh, wow. And I don't think he's legally allowed to talk about it. As in like Jody fashion, I think there was some NDAs and whatnot signed. He participated

in that for a long time. And I remember going to him like in tears listing like, did you know this and this and this and hiding me up, putting me in a car, making me run, locking me in rooms, duct taping me starving me like did you know this and he just looked at me and was just like that was your experience not mine so heartbreaking there was just no but again like this is the thing that is so jody is so good at disqualifying you in the minds of others so i was this angry rageful teenager and Jody you know

would tell my family oh Jesse's gonna tell you this Jesse is going to tell you that Jesse's just angry if Jesse tells you she prepared my family like completely destroyed my reputation

destroyed any sort of sense of credibility so then when I go and say Jody did all of this they would be like she told me you'd say that yeah and so and then I'm angry which just then

reinforces this previous identity of being an angry teenager and so there's no escaping it it's just a complete circle yeah one part that was particular and you kind of referenced it early but you know as a dad watching Kevin being interviewed

in this documentary you know it is it's hard to process like how could this man abandon his children even if he didn't realize what was going on but you seem to have grace for him. And certainly that the documentary talked about,

again, just the power and influence that Jody had and just evilness. And they brought in other people to speak to that. How do you see it? Do you see him just as a victim? I mean, that's what's so muddy about this is like, you know, where do you draw the line between like Ruby, predator or victim, you know?

And oftentimes is the case. It's very sad, which this documentary alluded to, sometimes the victims end up over time becoming those people. How do you view Kevin and some of the other men who, you know, were ostracized from their family? And as a result, some of this horrific abuse, you know, happened to the children. It's so, it's so tough. Like the question I have asked myself a lot over, I mean, even before Jody was arrested, is like how do you balance empathy and accountability?

Like how can you hold both of those things at the same time? Should we hold both of those things at the same time? I lean into the position of yes because I don't really believe. I think our obsession with punishment is actually something that keeps our punitive system going. But what's the difference between punishment and accountability? And it's difficult to define, I think. Kevin reached out to me when this was all starting, and I spoke, we emailed a few times. And whereas I do, I think I understand the state that Kevin was in, at least as much as I can, as an individual.

I don't have children, so I can't understand it from that point. But I understand what Jody can do to you psychologically and spiritually. something that Jody's daughter, like her and I would have talked a few times since. And something that she would say that I think is like it encapsulates who Jody is and like the power of Jody so well is she would say, I can't talk to Jody because if she told me the sky was yellow, I'd believe her. And that's exactly how it feels. Jody having her hooks in you, you have no understanding of what is up, what is down, what is

right. Like your barometer for any sort of moral compass is just destroyed. And your sense of reality is just completely destroyed. I remember when I first left, I would have moments of, let's say I was driving a car and I would go through a green light. In my head, I'd be like, Was that green? Is it green or is it actually red and I'm just seeing it as green? I don't know. Like that or I would like be using the restroom and I'm like, am I awake right now? Am I awake or am I asleep?

Is this real? Like I would have these and it was constant for so many years of like I don't know what is real because I thought I understood what was real and then everything was destroyed. And so, I mean, granted, I was a child, like a teenager, he's a full-ground man. I'd also, he also, there's also, he has more to lose and there's more things that can be manipulated, you know, his wife, his children. And not just his wife and his children, you know, in the Mormon religion, you have to be married inside the church. And in order to go to the top level of heaven, you have to be sealed and be temple worthy in order to do so. And so if Jody's like, your temple recommend is on the line, that's not, that is serious, serious, that is your eternal salvation on the line. And not only your eternal salvation, but your family's eternal salvation. And so for him to be like, I'm willing to do anything and everything I need to do. And if I need to like go live by myself, because I'm told that I'm, I threat my children by a person that is, you know, propped up by the.

the church. And the church denies that she was on any list, but that is complete bullshit. Like, complete garbage. She was 100% used by bishops as, like, recommended by bishops to these people. Do you think some of them saw her influence and power and weaponized it? Do you, that bishops used her power? Yeah. People in high places of the Mormon church, do you think they recognized her power influence and what she was capable of and used it as a a weapon to you know influence their question it's hard because she's also a woman and women are not supposed to have leadership like not real leadership roles in the church um i honestly think that to me jody is a cult leader but she just got caught in like the beginnings of the cult and i think

part of the reason why is because she's a woman and and if like she were a man in this position within the Mormon church i think that there would have been a lot more of that happening i think she was just really good at manipulating bishops. And also, like, a lot of the things she used, a lot of the methods, you know, Mormons really want to, like, distance themselves away from this and say that she's not a real Mormon or, like, this isn't real Mormon doctrine, but it's just, to me, that's just common a dissonance, that it's too uncomfortable to look at how close and how real those methods are, like, in relation to the Mormon church. So I think that, at least, like, when I, I was living with her, and I would go to my bishop with her and my grandparent. I think she had a lot of power over these bishops, and she knew how to manipulate them very, very well. Yeah, that's interesting. It was a really heartfelt part of the docu-series when you talked about the family who helped you get to the shelter. Is there any part of you that hopes that this docu-series reconnects you with them?

Yeah, that was, yeah, they... I think about it a lot. I think about them a lot. And since, like, thinking about this release and wondering if they know who I am, like, wondering if they know who I actually am now. And, yeah, I hope, I hope they see it. Or if they don't see the series, I hope they, something within the, you know, the trial my name something but i also looked so different so i'm wondering if they'll even

recognize me i don't know um yeah i i i hope so that would that would be incredible in in that same spirit i want to you know shift the conversation obviously sadly there are so many victims of abuse and in all sorts of kinds of terrible people have affected people And we spoke to it earlier that, you know, a very tragic thing of abuse is that, again, it can become this never-ending cycle passed down. But you are someone who seemingly has stopped that in your life. And you've mentioned you've done a lot of therapy. You are a survivor in the truest sense. You are a successful tattoo artist.

You're living in Berlin. You really got away. And for all the people listening who, you know, are victims. in some way or another, maybe not as horrific as you experienced. You know, how are you able to do that? And what are things you can offer our audience who might be listening to your story and trying to figure out a way out, even if it's just in their own head, right? Because so much of this abuse is this kind of literal gaslighting of making you question

whether you're worthy of surviving this abuse and worthy of moving on with your life. How are you able to do that, that I think would be very inspiring. for my audience to hear. Yeah, I, I guess I want to start by saying when I first left Jody's and was first in like the very beginning stages of recovery, like I definitely participated in harmful behaviors and I definitely perpetuated this onto people around me. Like I was not well at all and I was not intentionally harmful. Like, I was definitely never like, I want to go hurt people, but my intention didn't align with my impact.

I was very, like, in my early, like late teens, early 20s, I was not well and barely holding on. And I was engaging in self-harm behaviors. I was in and out of mental hospitals. I was in really toxic relationships. I participated in really toxic behaviors within those relationships. When I say that, like, I was on the road to being a part of that cycle. And the things that have helped me the most, lots and lots of journaling, a lot of self-reflection, I think a lot of shadow work, being willing to look at the darkest parts of yourself,

but also being like having guidance and help in separating those darkest parts from you like what is you and what is your abuser like and for me like what is me and what is the indoctrination of the Mormon church what is Jody because I still have Jody's voice in my head Austin I have nightmares most nuts like I still am I'm definitely not free of this somatic therapy was really helpful there's you know EMDR therapy that's specific for PTSD and complex PTSD there's parts work I think that has been really helpful like even if you're just reading these books on your own like obviously having a practitioner is best but just learning about parts work there's a really incredible book called nonviolent communication that I think really really helps me identify my like what what is a feeling because I think oftentimes we really struggle with that you'll you'll think I feel like you don't like me or I feel that those aren't feelings those are interpretations so really getting into like practicing identifying actual feelings and then and then like learning what those feelings are telling my brain like what is my brain making up or like what stories are my brain making up is my brain making up it's it's an ongoing process i by no means and finished i'm not like i was harmed and now i'm healed and i know

that's not really like it's probably not the story your listeners or people that are going through this or on the like you know are beginning their process of healing want to hear but unfortunately Complex PTSD is a chronic condition and like with chronic conditions oftentimes it is something that will last years and years and years

if not a lifetime. So it's just a matter of like developing these skills over time. Something that really helped me was I think with high demand religion and just I think our society in general

we operate within this binary of good versus bad. We moralize everything in our lives from, you know, food to how we look. You know, being skinny is good and being like, but it's not just about like good or bad. It's like evil and like we have a moral component added to it. So recognizing those moral, the addition of moralization to things to go into more maybe neutral language, with yourself and using the terminology goodish for me was like unlocking a magical door like into a new land so like I would have so much guilt about doing something and I'm like oh I'm just

I'm bad I'm a bad person and in the series you'll hear Ruby saying things like I'm just I'm I'm a good girl i'm good and it's really kind of eerie and strange like grossly and fanalyzed and i feel like this is a result of this type of binary thinking so instead of saying like there's good good people and bad people or if i was a good person i would have done this leaving that language alone and entering this space of goodish like a goodish a good person may not have done that but a goodish person would like and allow it just like this like allowance of nuance and allowance of gray um for me was so incredibly helpful to like stop these spirals these like self-appetuating spirals of shame and and when you act out in shame which then brings more shame and then you know the the cycle continues

yeah that's very interesting i don't know if you're able to answer this question, but Jody was a licensed therapist. Therapy is something that you really leaned on in your healing and continued to do so. We're huge advocates of therapy, but I do talk to hundreds of people every day who are also in therapy, and it's, you know, this is a very scary reality of like therapy as a modality can be very positive, but also just like, you know, religion has a positive of impact on a lot of people, but often weaponized. And most great things in this world are often can be weaponized for evil.

You've seen someone like Jody as a licensed therapist do some very destructive names and hide behind the mask of a therapist. Have you been able to delineate, you know, for the people listening? Like, are there any red flags that you're aware of that for people who might be working with a therapist that maybe they shouldn't be?

And maybe they're not to the degree that Jody is. Maybe it's just someone who's just not quite qualified or actually helping this person out, but the person's just showing up for therapy. I'm in therapy. And it's just like two years later. Like, I'm still talking about the X. I hank it over. And it's like, well, you know, maybe, you know, maybe.

But have you been able? You've seen the extremes of both sides of what therapy can do from a harmful standpoint and and how it can be a life-saving thing, do you have any wisdom to pass along or observations you've experienced seeing both of those extremes? Yeah, I mean, not only, obviously, Jodi,

is one of the most harmful therapists, I think, probably in existence. I've also had a few other therapy experiences that were quite harmful as well. And I was pretty afraid of therapy for a long time. And it was so frustrating because I knew cognitively that therapy, like not every therapist is with Jody and that I needed help with processing what I had gone through. But the fear of seeing a therapist was so strong that it also kind of trapped me for a long time. And I went the route of just like doing my own reading, just reading as much self-help and as much, you know, therapeutic resources as possible.

Um, I think things you can look out for, I think learning to trust your gut. And I know that's so hard, especially even like if you're in a space of like, you don't know what's right. You don't know what's up or down. You don't know what reality is. I find for myself, there's like this kind of binning sensation that I get in my head when I can, when someone's being manipulative. And I've learned just over the years that like when this kind of sensation happens, that there's something going on. Like, not everything is being manipulative. And I've learned just over the years that like, when this kind of sensation happens that there's something going on, like, not everything is being. honest or there's like some deceit happening if you feel bad afterwards and not like if you feel like that was heavy or that was hard to process or that maybe that was sad but if you just feel bad afterwards probably a sign that they may not be the right fit for you um also i think getting getting a knowledge of a moda of specific types of modalities um because there's so many types of therapies. And so maybe doing some research in those modalities specifically and having maybe a baseline understanding of what you're supposed to be learning within those modalities. And if that, if like what your therapist is doing doesn't align with that and

also another sign that's probably not the best. I had a therapist once Break HIPAA with me. I had a therapist, like it was after Jody and I went to her as a recommendation from church. And I started telling her the story of what Jody did. And she's like, stopped me. And she's like, I've heard this before. And I was like, okay. And she was like, yeah, do you have an aunt? And then she like said one of my other aunt's names. I was like, yeah. And she's like, I was seeing her while this was happening. And she would tell me about this. And I'm like, what? Pretty sure that you shouldn't have said that. But then she then went on and said, Yeah, if I hadn't seen your aunt, I don't think I would have believed what you had said.

If I had not already heard the story, I don't think I would have believed you anyways. And I was like 19 or 20 at this point. And I remember just like sitting there being like, what do you mean you weren't going to believe me? And that was the first time I had ever had the thought that like someone that had no contact with Jody that hadn't been like corrupted by. Jody wouldn't believe me. Yeah. And so, like, I never went back to her. Like, that's a pretty glaring, you know, ranking of trust.

I had a therapist once to try to get me, like, he intentionally wanted to get me angry to, like, bring out the real stuff. Like, he literally told me that. And I was like, that sounds like what Jody would do. Absolutely not. Like, not ethical. It's hard. And it's expensive and it's hard and you have to continue to find the right one.

I know it can feel so discouraging. And I also think this idea that everyone needs to go to therapy, I kind of don't really believe that. Like I think that people can benefit from self-analysis and analysis in general and like learning skills. There are ways of learning skills and having self-analysis that doesn't necessarily involve. spending $150 a week. Like, yes, I think there are definitely certain types of maybe neuroses or conditions that would greatly benefit therapy.

But I think this blanket statement that every single person needs to go to therapy don't necessarily agree with. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I like what you said about just, like you said, it feels a little vague following your gut, but just if you feel bad afterwards, it makes a lot of sense. And like you said, there's there's processing a difficult conversation. And there's like what Jody seemed to do a very excellent job of is making, again, like, it's leaving you more in doubt of yourself or your actions or who you are. Yeah.

She would like create the disease and then offer you the cure. But every time you go, you get a little bit of the cure, but more disease. And so then it would just touch you stuck in it. Well, I have to say, like, you know, thank you so much for pulling back the curtain of, just all the corrupt and awful things that the Mormon church does, you know, to obviously not just everyone, but like women, especially. And also, I'm just like so sorry that you went through everything that you went through. You didn't deserve to go through that. I'm sorry, no one protected you. You know, you should have been protected. You do have a really powerful voice,

though, and I think you should be really proud of them. Thank you. I really appreciate that. On a light or not, how did you end up in Berlin? I'm just curious. And obviously, you are tattooed artists. My wife and I, if we have tattoos and they look like some beautiful works of art, how'd you end up in Berlin? Do you have a favorite tattoo of yours? And what do you like most about being a tattoo artist?

Okay, good. Fun questions. Yeah. Berlin, I've wanted to live in Berlin for so long. The first time I came here, I think it was, 17 I think to them 18 and I just immediately fell in love with the city and I would keep for the longest time I had like an S-Bahn like a transit ticket in my wallet and I just kept it there and every time I would open my wallet I would see it as like a reminder like this is where I want to be and I was on a birthday trip two februaries ago um I had I went on this, like, I don't know, to just kind of get away from everything and to just have some, like, a reprieve from all of the heaviness.

I went on this Europe trip. And I met my partner in a karaoke booth at Monster Onsonson. And if you're ever in Berlin, you should definitely check out Monster Ronsons. It's so fun. It's like one of the most fun karaoke. It's like small room karaoke. And we just had this beautiful trist across Europe. He, like, followed me around Europe for, like, a month.

And, yeah, we fell in love, and it was not hard to convince me to move to Berlin. I already wanted to be here. So, yeah, I moved here, and I love this city. It's, you know, moving to a foreign country is definitely not for the faint of heart. even in a city that, you know, most people speak English here, but it's still, like, I have so much more empathy and sympathy for people that have to move to other countries that don't have the luxury of being there, or the luxury of choosing, that they, you know, that people that are displaced, people that are seeking a better life than themselves, running away from danger.

Because, like, as a, you know, I don't have kids. I don't have these responsibilities. I, you know, I'm a white person moving to a white country and how stressful and difficult it is. I just, I have so much more sympathy for people that have to do it for other reasons. But, sorry, not to go heavy again, but to bring back my favorite tattoo, that's a good question.

I feel like every time I get a new tattoo becomes my favorite tattoo. Sure. But I have a back piece I'm working on that I really, really love. I'm getting it done in London. This artist's name is Jacob Morris, J-C-M on Instagram. And then my thinking about tattooing is honestly the connection with people. Like, I love making the tattoos for sure, but the application of tattooing is just like kind of a perk.

For me, it's like you're with someone for so long, like for hours times, and you're getting to know them, you're getting to know, and there's something about not just touching someone, but you're also hurting them and permanently changing their appearance that breaks down barriers so quickly that you go from like, hi, nice to meet you to like them telling me about, you know, addiction and trauma and just the most personal stories. and I love I mean I love this it's to me that's if I if tattooing didn't also include the

personal connection I don't think I would really enjoy it it's really beautiful well Jesse I just want to thank you again for taking the time I know um these conversations aren't always easy to to live back but um you know hopefully despite all the trauma and abuse that Jody perpetuated this is again continues the shit of light on the fact that this stuff goes on and what to look for and I think sometimes it's

to your point like you talked about blinders you know like the world is sometimes it's easier to just digest when you don't think this type of stuff can happen or it can happen around you and it's just we don't always want to be looking for it

but it's important to be diligent, and it's important to be aware that this type of evil can exist in our world and to be mindful of it so that if we are in a position to try to put a stop to it or call it out, we might be hopefully in a better position to do so. So I want to thank you for again taking the time. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. And enjoy your friends tomorrow. Thank you.

It's going to be so fun to be surrounded by your support system. We love it. Thank you so much. all right thanks so much jesse i appreciate it that was great thank you jesse thank you enjoy the rest of your day enjoy your friends uh we really thank you and um yeah yeah bye guys well the final two episodes of i d ruby and jody a cult of sin and influence premieres tonight beginning at nine eight central on id episodes will be available to stream on hbomax and discovery want to thank our guest jesse hildebrand as well as not that cosmet thank you

guys for listening. We'll see you tomorrow. We have Dale and Kat from Bachelor in Paradise joining us to talk about their messy relationship on Bachelor in Paradise, the finale, and all that fun stuff. Lots of talking shit, I am sure. Get ready for some fun tomorrow. We'll see you then. Bye-bye.