The Viall Files - E994 – Going Deeper with Kat and Dale: BIP Unpacked

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper edition.  The most talked-about couple from this season of Bachelor in Paradise is here, and we could not be more excited for Kat and Dale to join us! How does Kat feel about the way the other women treated her? Where are she and Dale now? What’s going on with the iPad rumors? All that, and more. You won’t want to miss it!   “I’m not gonna cry…" Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774286896 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  Are you struggling with any sort of dating, relationship, or life dilemma? Do you want all the answers? Email [e-mail] with your question in the subject line to express interest in appearing on the show!  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Thank You to Our Sponsors: BetterHelp - Find the one, with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at https://betterhelp.com/viall  Grammarly - Let Grammarly take the busywork off your plate so you can focus on high-impact work. Download Grammarly for free at https://grammarly.com/podcast  Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @katizzzo @dalemoss13

Dale, Kat, welcome to the Vile Files. Yeah, it's good to be here. We're wrapped. Are you okay? We're okay. I don't know what to do with my hands. I know. I'm like, what do I do with my body?

Do you need to breathe? Yeah, no, we're good. Let's get into it, man. So you guys are together. We are. Honestly, I wasn't sure. going to play up, you know? Are you bummed that you didn't leave with a ring? Are you like, you know what? Girl, no. Then they're done that. I'm good. No. I'm totally fine without ring.

I already said like the way the show was formatted, obviously different, like the new format. Like, I almost like forgot about the engagement element. Yeah. I feel like it made the engagements less like, you're like, oh, okay. It's like, yeah, the money. I guess, but like it was like the money. I think they were more focused on like truly like building relationships if you see even though engagements were the forefront of previous seasons. We haven't really worked out that well. So, like, whatever they're doing this time around, I think worked a little bit better because we're together. I also think, like, you know, people focused on the money aspect. But when you're actually on the show, granted, some of that's in the back of your mind. But it wasn't a topic,

a conversation with any of us. So we knew that we had to compete at a certain point. But I think it made people dive in a lot deeper. So if they had a connection or there was something that they were really trying to build. It's like you were going all in and trying to find even more common ground and support your partner. Oh, yeah. So I really wanted someone to take all the money. I mean, 500, 500 racks. I mean, it is life changing. I was all confused. How did it go from up to $500,000 to two couples had to split 250? Did you expect anything last? I know. As soon as they said half a mill, I was like, no one's getting half a mill. Yeah, like, I mean, at the time you were really expecting that to be the case but then as it went on you're like oh wait

they said opportunity like it's all about the word yeah yeah yeah it's like oh well we'll try yeah i mean like when you bring it down they're only they're only getting 75k each of them that was my first question to him when they told us like what are the taxes i was like i need to know i don't understand this well the 250 divide that by half 125 divide that by half it's not even 75 yeah i mean yeah the taxes are getting like six still i mean that is the whole income i'm not sure I don't know what the Costa Rican tax. I don't know, but actually, I mean, I guess you could get creative. But I mean, regardless, I think at the end of the day, if it was winning, it was the biggest thing, the money wasn't incentive.

But you just wanted to win for your partner. And you wanted to win for each other. So that was, you know, one of the tougher things, at least for me personally, just because at the end of it, I felt a, you know, a little let down just because I had felt like I let cat down a little bit. But why do you feel like you let cat down? Boy things. Boy things. I mean, the competition wasn't strong enough. It was funny, when we're watching, I go, I don't know, Dale's a pretty big guy.

And then, like, seconds later, you fell in the pool. Oh, guys, his crowshot was actually. I was, I was frustrated. So before filming, I tore my lat and my tricep. And we had no strength competitions a whole time. How did you tear? I was actually in Costa Rica, well before the show. And I was working out in training, and I did, like, a pull up, and my hand slipped off the bar, caught my arm right here.

I didn't even know my lat was torn until halfway through Paradise. But that's not an excuse, but it was a frustrating. No, that's an excuse. That's a good excuse. No, that's why you weren't injured. Hey, rehab PT. But at the end of the day, like, it's not something I ever talked about because it didn't matter, right? We're going to go out there and just try to put it all on the line.

But yeah, they always say you're only as strong as your weakest link. Yeah. Do you think you were the weakest link or do you think it was? I was definitely the weakest link. No question. No question. No question. I was like, that's why I took it so hard.

He was holding the whole thing. I was like trying to hold more. I remember being like, we can like call it. Like I don't want you to hurt yourself. I think we saw that. Because did you know about his injuries before? Yeah. Well, I found out how extensive it was kind of like during the competition because, you know, boys like don't like to show their weakness.

So like as it was going on, it's like, oh, like he's actually injured. Like I don't care. Like, let's call it. But it's fine. It's all worked out. Clear by a doctor. It's all gravy. I think what was amazing about that day is like the whole concept was like your partner

carries like the weight of the world and yeah that was like a physical challenge but later in the evening when i couldn't handle emotionally things like he technically like carried the weight and like stood for both of us so in a way like we kind of won a better challenge because it was put to a test yeah and she she definitely calmed me down just because i was so frustrated after the fact um and i think that's kind of a dynamic throughout the whole season sometimes one of us would be high you know the other would kind of bring us back down and ultimately like move past it quickly uh the end of the day it was just that we're standing uh together you know throughout the the entirety of the season well we'll get to the details of paradise but since you guys are together i'd love to know what you guys have been

up to like when did you guys stop filming last week of may yeah we still yeah last week of may is it the first second happy september everybody happy happy so yeah so you guys have been together for how long now? What is that? June and July, August. Wait, can you come from? I guess technically, if we talk about after the show since June. Yeah, so it was, go ahead.

You live in San Diego, you live in New York. Yep. And so what, did you guys, because obviously you left Paradise as a couple, but was kind of unclear, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, for all we knew, like the next day, you guys could have been like, all right, nice knowing you. Like, as you guys left Paradise, like, did you? What conversations do you guys have? Was there a, will you be my girlfriend?

Will you be my boyfriend? Like, how did you guys become an actual couple outside of a reality TV environment? I think the same way we approached it during the show. But we also, we had a lot of the conversations of things that were important to us, you know, if we're going to build this into a strong relationship. And I think we were realistic about, you know, just our lives before things, you know, our priorities. and we took the time. Obviously, anytime you get into a situation, there's stuff from the past that comes up on both sides. But I think communication is the biggest thing and just being very, very clear and having some of the hard conversations, but also like speaking to the things that

we both wanted or both want out of a relationship in a future. So were you like, would you be my girlfriend? Well, I actually asked him on TV because it was a joke. I kept calling him my boyfriend. But I hadn't, like, technically, we hadn't established that. So I really, like the are you my boyfriendess or no thing but we definitely did speak about like how we were going to move when we left paradise because even though the money was there we're like well no matter what we're still leaving together and i think i call it like phases like that was phase one was filming and phase two is like the real challenge like watching it air going through life like navigating secrecy like trying to do things to build a relationship without being able to kind

of because of the publicness that comes with it and i think that's like a real testimony to like our strength and i think we've handled it really well but Yeah, I mean, he was in San Diego like by three days after filming after you stayed there for a little bit. And then we were just kind of like trying to see each other anytime we could. I feel like we've made a really good effort. And I can't really go to New York because it's too public. But you've been hiding out. What were some of the tough conversations that you guys had to have?

I mean, I was very honest when I first came into the show. Like I didn't want to fall back into old patterns. I'm someone who checks out and I'm not a big dater. But, you know, and I told Kat this, like I never wanted to put someone in a box that they didn't. deserve to be in. Also, like, I was worried was I going to be able to feel, again, after a previous relationship that, uh, you know, someone who's a great person, it just didn't work out. Are we, are we talking about Claire? Are you talking about like, oh, it's after like out. Yeah. Yeah, but I think, uh, Claire's doing well, uh, from, from what I know now, which is, you know,

it's great. But you just move, move past things. Um, so I think a lot of it was things that I had to deal with, you know, personally. And, uh, you know, we talk about locations and, uh, you know, we talk about locations and how things like that would work, which is something that we're going to navigate together. Are you pretty settled in New York? I've been there 10 years. You know, I've got my agency and some businesses there. One of the good things is that, I mean,

I've taken 52 flights this year. So I can kind of be where I need to be. But I've also said that for me, home is where I build a relationship. And that is kind of what I always stick to. So there's a lot of moving parts. But I think we're both understanding that, like, you know, we have our priorities with our life and our career. But if you're going to build a life, you eventually have to have to make some tough decisions.

And that's what we're navigating right now. We can be public and just really enjoy ourselves, which is great. And all that other stuff will work itself out. Unfortunately, you know, we've got the means and the ability to kind of navigate that. Kat, you obviously ended Paradise last time. And wasn't you got engaged? I did get engaged. And I did.

Trending. Trending. All the cool kids are doing it. You're not going to do it once, I guess. Yeah, so, I mean, obviously, like, that comes with, you know, just like, I don't know, maybe not PTSD, but like a more of a, how did you want to approach this experience different than last, knowing that, like, yeah, I mean, it's very complicated entering. You both know this. Starting a relationship on TV, very fast, very intense. You want it to be real.

There's a real element of it. there's a part that's just, it's not real, because you just have to get to know each other. I mean, maybe you've spoken out in the past, maybe you have it. I don't know, but like, why didn't that relationship work and coming into this experience, what did you want to, how did you want to move differently, specifically you? Yeah, lots of things.

Well, I think just as we grow and evolve, like we're different people, the version of myself back then, and especially that last paradise, I kind of didn't know my needs or wants. I kind of would just like allow anything. So even though there was blatant like things that said maybe this isn't your person or you should probably like take like slow down a little bit, I wasn't seeing those like signs. And then I think being in those environment and stuff like that you set this like expectation that it's going to go a certain way and you'll kind of like convince yourself that it's going to go that way no matter what. And then watching it back and moving through my own like things afterwards with other relationships. I learned a lot about like, okay, it's better to actually take things slow and let things happen the way they're supposed to. to. So this time coming in, I mean, I was like actively journaling every day. That really matters. I was just like making myself very present. If I did feel like I was kind of getting wrapped up in the moment, I was checking in with, you know, the therapist like almost every three days or so just to kind of like reground myself and being very like aware that emotions are

forming here, but still there's so much more to learn about someone after. So like just letting things play the way they're supposed to do it, but not putting so much emphasis on how it's going to end essentially, if that makes sense. Like I just didn't want to set these like unrealistic expectations then end up like hurting my own feelings. But I think having him too, like he's kind of already gone through it as well. Like we had that like connection. So I felt a little bit more safer in that. I think what I struggled with before was trying to navigate somebody that you really didn't know in real time and trying to handle all the things that come with the airing of the season. And that was really difficult. But I think even with the challenges

And just like time that we had spent together, I really got to like see his character how we face adversity, how we move through things to feel at least safe enough to try outside, knowing that it still might not work. What phase of the relationship are you guys in right now? Oh, phase one, phase two. I don't know. Maybe phase two plus. Did you get a boyfriend and girlfriend?

We're not. This isn't like how we're seeing each other. No engagement talks or anything. But I think like, you know, you have the show and we built this. foundation there. I think when we talk about after the show in June, it was still a deep exploration phase for the both of us. We had many conversations, things that sprung up with both of us that weren't created by the other partner, right? Now moving forward, we're just in a very, very strong place. I don't really know how to say things. Are you all falling in love? Are you all

in love? Oh, you guys like want like the bachelor terms? Well, I mean, we like to make fun of them, but I mean, also yeah but like also what uh have you guys said i love you we just yeah i guess i mean he doesn't like to like talk about what you guys have a public relationship i know i know but we always like also i think i've always been you go on a show there's these aspects um and it's also there's certain things that you know with people because you're proud of but there's also things that you know you you kind of keep tight but like there's been no doubt i said it on the on the show like you know i i love and care for cat deeply. We have all the conversations of what it looks like, you know, if it's kids, if it's, you know, a home and in what we want. So yeah, I guess I've never just phased like a relationship.

But the love is there. The love has grown. We do express like that to one another. I'm just still very like, now we're moving to like the fact that now we're going to be public and then it's going to have its own things. And honestly, we can probably grow even deeper. It is still really difficult to like try to build a relationship in private long distance. So now that we have that like ability to do that. It's just going to give it even more space to grow and evolve, but do you both want kids? I know you just mentioned kids. Is that something you want as an individual? Yeah, I think one of the greatest gifts in the world will be to be a father. I think, you know, with a child seeing my partner in my child's eyes is like a gift, you know, that I'll look forward

to each and every day. How old are you? 36. 29. And it's safe to say at this stage in both your lives you're not you're not dating or having a boyfriend and girlfriend knowing that you're two individuals who like want to have yeah i was i was never a big dater before i think taking time for me it's always been take time to to meet someone and get to understand them well um you know the relationship uh will form in it's you know on its own but i'm not trying to waste my time i'm not trying to waste anyone else's time. And I think, you know, even with Paradise and after the fact, like, it's all the way it ended. But it's like, hey, you know, I'm standing here with you. Like, we're going to go through the conversations. We're going to do what we have to do to build this

as strong as possible. But we're also, you know, and we're going to support each other. So, yeah, we're not just trying to like casually, you know, hang out. I mean, he's met my family. He's met my cat. That matters a lot. It's all about the cat, cat daddy. Yeah, he has a relationship with my Well, in the four or five months you guys have dated, what's something each of you have learned about the other person that is like an obstacle or an ick or a challenge where it's just like, okay, well, we can work through that, you know? That is literally my response. You work through that.

You know, what is something? I think that's got to be something. I mean, I think I've just learned about Dale, like how, you know, I actually like we kind of saw it on TV a little bit, but. He cares so much about being, like, a good provider and partner. And I think he puts so much pressure on himself. So if things are expressed where he feels that, like, almost like he's not doing the right thing or not doing enough or disappointing somebody, it can make him very like, no, no, no, I'm this, that and the other. And he thinks very logically, I'm a little bit more emotional base and kind of like the textbook stuff.

And I think that learning through how we both interpret things and having, like, trying to adjust or at least. understand that from one another has allowed us to really like any conflict or things that we need to talk about, it brings us closer. Yeah, I think a big thing. It's more just understanding and that's something that comes with time. Like, you know, our careers are different. We're both really focused on our life and our careers. You know, I have flexibility, but also like, you know, I got a lot of people relying on me, people who, you know, I pay their, pay their rent, are at least, you know, chip in on it obviously um so i wouldn't say it's like it's not an ick or a red flag or anything like that but it's just the understanding that like i got to grind you know and i i like working i'm in a

phase where like i'm very very passionate about the things that i'm doing and i take care of a family you know i'm going to retire my dad he's not doing it as self you know my my siblings my sister amber that has physical and intellectual disabilities we just took her out of her group home you know I've, you know, help pay for our house back in South Dakota. So I think it's just the balance of responsibilities, not only with our relationship, but I do provide for a family currently. And she's been extremely supportive and understanding. But I know it can be frustrating. I think I had to learn that like, yeah, if he's working, like, that doesn't mean he doesn't like me any less, you know, a little bit of anxious attachment. Definitely sparked to the beginning.

We had to talk about it. He's like, listen, just because I'm like not like there or whatever doesn't mean that I'm not thinking about you any less or whatever. So those are like things that I had to work through within myself too to understand because I also, this is a new relationship dynamic. And again, not being able to be public has really affected that. Because a lot of things we probably could do together. Yeah. That now we can. Just weren't in the cards. Yeah, we just couldn't because it would be public. But yeah, just definitely. So there's been no icks. What is? I don't know. Like you haven't tripped over. I definitely give him the ick in some capacity. I like, like, there's no way that I'm just like, he just like plays it off.

I'm just like, I often say it's not that deep. It's all good. I mean, probably when I'm like just going and rants on the phone and he's just like, put the phone in me. I did not know he did that. Oh, no, I turn the volume down and put it on speaker. And he starts like cooking dinner and you'll be like, I guess I'm just talking. No, I'm, I'm spewing about life or like something, never at him. But like, yeah, I'm thinking, and I'm like, hello?

It's like, I'm here. Yeah, I'm here. And I was like, oh, my. God, I didn't even know that, like, see, like, how long have I been going? In the past, like, if that was the case, like, I would be, like, the relationships. Yeah, they weren't very understanding the way he is. But he just kind of, like, accepts me for who I am. So it's an, I'm sure it gives you the, but I love it.

Well, we've obviously covered the show. We think it's a fun, silly show. We don't take our commentary that seriously. Yeah. Preface that by saying, we've called you crazy. So far. I'm a good crazy that. Yeah.

Which we appreciate. You're excellent TV. You're like, you're like, oh, that's, you know, she's coming in hot. But, like, yeah. Do you feel like you were accurately portrayed on this show? I think this second round was very closer to true to form. But I just also think I've evolved as a person. In general, like, you know, you can't have everyone's personality or characteristics be shown to the fullest extent.

I do think things were taken out of context a little bit more than they should have a few years ago. But I also gave them that. And I definitely didn't know how to manage and regulate my emotions. Like, there was just, I was a different person two years ago. I think this year, or this time was definitely closer to true to form. I wouldn't, I actually was really impressed with how they were editing everyone. But, I mean, I am who I am. I go on a reality TV show in the middle of your 20s, like, you're going to have some ups and downs for sure.

My growing pains just happened to be, like, broadcast on national television. Dale, had you watched any, had you kept up with any batch that you hadn't? Like, when I came on to the beach, because I committed officially four days before filming. Wow. And it was something that I was definitely open to doing, committed four days before, and I kind of caught up a little bit, like, on the flight down to Costa Rica. But I also didn't want to dive in too much on people's previous. I had no idea who was on the beach. I met Justin before, but outside of that, I didn't know anybody.

Is this the first time you were asked to come back to Bachelor Nation? Yeah. I was pretty clear. And it was, I didn't have a bad experience. you know, certain things happen. Yeah, very unique experience. I haven't even seen it. Did you feel short-changed?

I mean, like, that was a, I mean, I don't know how much you've spoken about showing up to a show and then someone demanding to get engaged to you. I don't, like, did you feel pressured? I didn't feel short-changed on anything. I'll always say if I make a decision or I say, like, I did that, like, by my choice, Claire's in a great relationship, you know, she's got her child, which I'm very, very happy for her. It's just, you know, you go through those, and I think,

what I did learn is like I did have this, this want and this need to, and because of my upbringing, and some of the things that my mom had to deal with, I always, I wanted to be that person who could heal someone's pain. Or I wanted to be as good of a person as possible. Or I believe that if you try hard enough, you can make it work with anyone. And it wasn't about too bad people. It's just we were just different. And sometimes that doesn't line out. And going into this, like, you know, fast forwarding. I was, had moved through my past relationship. I felt like I was in a great place in life and career. Honestly, I was really burnt out and I was like, I just want to give up control. So it was a big thing for me to go on. And then I said this earlier, I didn't want to put

anyone in a box based on like fears and concerns or insecurities that I had. You know, I never watched Cat's season before. I heard they were pretty, pretty entertaining. She, she works. It's a great work of art. Yeah, I truly probably won't watch him. I've never seen Nick's either, so yeah. I haven't seen his. You tried to show me a clip one time. Yeah, I was too true.

Of Dale? No, of me. Of you? You tried to show him. I tried to show him like one clip of me being funny. Like, I thought it was funny, you know. Like, yeah, about men pissing me off. Like, that's hilarious.

But I hadn't seen his either. And also, coming into the season, I knew. Well, if you blinked, you would have missed it. I heard. It was quick. I heard. I heard all the tea. Previously, I came into Paradise knowing every single thing about every single man that came in with my best friend. My best friend was The Bachelorette. So I knew everything about everyone there. And I haven't watched or been connected since I left. So coming in kind of with like a blank space, I think really helped you. Because then you get to know someone for what you see and not based on previous judgment. Also like one thing I got if someone was like, oh, cat this, cat that. Like the thing I saw immediately was growth. Like it was it was apparent of even. just how she's talked about her past experience to this one. And for me, that was the biggest thing.

And that's what I focus on because we all go through shit in life. Like, nobody's perfect. We all have, you know, some traumas or we have triggers and stuff. But it was extremely apparent to me early on, which is why we stay together throughout the whole thing. As a Packer fan, Dale, I've known about you for a long time. Nothing too glorious, but I got the shot. But Packer fans love their undrafted free agents.

Yeah. They're very athletic wide receivers. Yeah. I was, I knew all about you. There was a chance for sure. We were ruined for you. Green Bay was the most amazing experience for me. It was a chapter.

Yeah, to this day, I love Green Bay. Also, they got Michael Parsons. I'm aware. Yeah. So do you keep, like, who is your team? Yeah, do you have a team? I don't really have a team. I don't.

I follow the league. I've hosted, like, you know, during a few super. Bulls and I still am very involved with the NFL. But you had a, you did, you did some stuff with the Vikings, did you not? No, no, no. So I was Packers. I didn't have a glamorous career. Didn't you have, but you scored a regular season touchdown, have you not?

Nope. You never did? No, I got a, I was injured toward Lambroom, came back to Chicago. So I was there with Levy Smith, Mark Trussman. Okay. And then maybe you weren't as good as I thought. I know. I was like, all right, type in him up for a second.

I was like, I don't let him do that. I played one year of football after turning down. I do remember when they signed you that. I remember this day, you know, your RAS score was pretty high. Yeah. I mean, 43840, 4200 per, at least a little juice in the legs. But, no, it was just a chapter, but it gave me so many opportunities after. I love the game.

I love competing. But I feel like I'm more connected with the NFL now than when I was playing, honestly. This show is sponsored by Better Help. Listen, people. Therapy is important. It's great to get things off your chest. when you bottle things up, bad things can happen. We certainly know how intimidating therapy can be.

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Oh, I can tell you from personally experience that our team is far more efficient because of Gramerly. We are getting more done faster and we're wasting a lot less time typing emails or making mistakes and communication because of Gramerly. Let Gramerly take the busy work off your plate so you can focus on high impact work. download Gramley for free at Grameley.com slash podcast. That's gremlin.com slash podcast. If you guys don't work out, why won't you? That's an intense question. Life maybe, like career or like... I mean, I think I'm staying in the public eye, like, just in general, it's hard on any relationship. Well, he's been so good, though. Like, I couldn't be with a better person to manage the anxieties that come with that because I love to, like, get myself worked up.

And he brings me back down to Earth very quickly because of just his, like, you're just, like, grounded in who you are. And it helps me, like, reground myself. So honestly, that's been our least challenging thing is the public response. Yeah. And for me, like, I don't, it doesn't really affect me as much as most. And it's probably just because I tune out or, like, I'm so kind of tunnel vision on certain things. But I think, if anything, it'd be priorities in alignment. Right. I think like love like those things are always there, but for any relationship to work, I always say, and I truly believe this, love is not enough. It is the most important thing. But to make a relationship work, there's a lot of other things that go into it. But we haven't even had that conversation because it's not like a, we're not going into each day, like, fearful of if this doesn't work out and what that would look like, you know.

But I guess like you, I mean, have you always? not cared about what the public has thought about you? I mean, obviously, like, you had your stint on the show, but, like, did you keep up with any of that? Or were you always just like, I don't give a fuck. I'm doing my own thing anyways. Like, I mean, when you're going through, like, some smoke, like, obviously some stuff seeps in. But I've, I mean, I've been kind of under a microscope since I was a kid. Like, I was the only, you know, black kid in my community till roughly sophomore year in high school. I didn't know a lot of my mom's side of the family because of, you know, a biracial marriage and some disagreements there. I was the top

athlete since I was a, you know, Gatorade player of the year in high school. We had no pro sports teams, dual sports star in college. So like I think like attention and awareness, I was always aware of my surroundings, but I never fed into it too much because I know how fast like things can change. And then fast forward just being in New York, I was around a lot of circles and stuff that you know I never really really share it was just like it is what it is now I think fast forward too like after Claire and I split obviously we were in the pandemic I think it was one of the most few shows in history or like history of the franchise um and some of those things like you know were really really tough but you also move through those and then you just put up barriers and

boundaries um and at this stage like my life the show is an amazing experience I'm so happy to be a part a Bachelor nation, but I've got my business. I've got my venture. Like, I've got all my other things. So, like, at the end of the day, and that's sometimes, like, I don't try to hide from the show in any way, shape, or form. I just, yeah, it's just not my, my entire thing. Are you going on the cruise? I'm not doing the cruise. Sounds like a nightmare. I think I always love that. I would get so sick. I would get so sick. They knew not to ask me because I was a cruise. I went to Greece. I took my sister to Greece on a cruise, and it was amazing. Greece is probably different than Mike.

Yeah, that one would, because you'd be on so much. Corinne Olympia famously told me once when I said I hate cruises. She told me I don't know how to cruise then. There you go. Kat, I want to address like the elephant in the room when it comes to how the final episode ended. Alicia. She came in here hot. Yeah.

And then we saw it in the finale. Yeah. And the finale kind of backed up what her opinion at least. Yeah. But obviously she came in here, suggested that you came into Paradise with the boy. friend there was the iPad or extra phone accusation and kind of that you were playing the game also that you and Sean were like homies yeah best friends friends with each other's families like holidays together holidays together etc etc uh Sean said as much at the finale and then obviously you were

activated from that accusation I would love to like just hear your point of view because it wasn't really addressed obviously you seemed upset Dale came to your defense you you you know, wanting to be the honorable man that he is. But I'd just love for you to address it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it obviously was a lot in the moment. And then it became a lot in real time a few weeks ago.

When it comes to being in a relationship, I did not come in with a boyfriend. I definitely did leave with one. So that's point blank period there. What was it then? What was it? Was it a completely fabricated story or was it? It was a story that I think I would have appreciated a little. bit more, I guess, conversations with me before things were spoken on so factual and also

publicly because, you know, no one had a conversation with me prior. And I think when you're hearing, if you want to speak on something to that extent, it should be really like, okay, this is exactly how it is. And was I dating before Paradise? Of course. I wasn't going to stop my life. I didn't even know if I wanted to do the show yet. And I was seeing, my accent the time a little bit, but also, like, I was just not stopping my life, you know, but that did not mean that I was coming in with this idea that I was going to, you know, fake it and then leave. But I do wish that things were at least addressed with me personally, like one-on-one before things were expressed the way that they were. And was this a relationship

that you needed to address with that person when you left? I think that, no, I mean, no it's i i came into paradise saying like this is going to help me figure out what it is that i need to do that relationship i have no ill will towards him at all but it wasn't the healthiest i think he can agree with that and you know everyone's kind i think can understand maybe what that feels like and i really did want to use this experience to kind of help me see things more clear and kind of break away a little bit which is exactly what it provided so maybe yes there could have been like a conversation but not like I'm breaking up with you conversation if that makes sense or like hey like I have you're not my boyfriend anymore like no I think he can also agree

that that was the situation for what it was but you definitely had a conversation though after filming with well I had to because you know I I wanted to clear up if there was also anything that was said to him that may have been misconstrued or misunderstood because I'm not I didn't know exactly what was expressed to him from Sean Alicia so I wanted to Oh, they reached out to him? Yeah, they called him. Oh. Yeah, what were the receipts that they were referring to, you know?

So based on what I've been told, there are no actual receipts. So I'm not sure. I have receipts from my therapist, though. She said she'd release my clinical notes to approve that I didn't have a boyfriend. I said, let me sign the patient release for. I mean, I hear you like, I mean, listen, it's a tricky thing. I just like, yeah. When it comes to Bachelor Nation, like not stopping your life.

I don't think anyone, if they're really being honest, goes on this show. anything other than open to the possibility of maybe meeting someone, knowing that, like, they probably won't. And I think everyone who goes on the show is excited for the opportunities that come with it. Right. Like, you're an idiot if you're an idiot.

Yeah, you would say that. If you only show up for love, you're kind of crazy. Well, I mean, that is what I did before. And that did not work out very well. So I was like, you know what? I came in all these other times, like, so focused on leaving in a relationship and that's all I wanted, right?

And I had a failed engagement. And the experience was not the best even, during so I wasn't coming in like super hopeful but I was open to it but I just didn't want to put that pressure on myself and I feel like if I had stopped my life before completely I mean I to be honest I signed my contract at stage coach like I literally decided like right before I left like I'm not kidding yeah I started wearing everybody's clothes because I was like I didn't prepare for this but that's where I was coming from it wasn't like I just wanted to be very like realistic with this situation and the experience but the last thing I expected was to actually like me

an adult and like form a real relationship the way that we did which honestly I think is that makes it even better because when you're not going in with that idea things can really form so did they make up you sneaking in an iPad or did you have an iPad I did not have an iPad I did not have an iPad during filming I did not have a laptop no and like guys like they have not been shy about showing people on this season I think if I had those devices or messages on my arms other than my tattoos. Yes, the messages on the arms. Like Dale said, I only have spray tan and tattoos on me.

But I think that would have been shown. I think that would, like, I don't think they were afraid of that, right? So, no, there was no communication to the outside world through any electronic device. Why do you feel like they made that up about you? I'm not sure where they were coming from with that, which is kind of why I wish that that was like a conversation that at least they dressed with me. I mean, I also just my sense even, because you see things. back and you see some of the ITMs and the conversations and stuff. And like, obviously there

was some, you know, some frustration and some hurt there. And I don't know, some people move past it pretty quickly. Others take it to another level. How did you do with it? Because obviously, like, you guys barely knew each other in paradise. You're getting to know each other. You don't really know who each other is until you get outside of the show. So when you are hearing these accusations in real time, certainly like you came to Kat's offense. You wanted to protect her. Like, it was clear that, like, you know, how do you know what to believe? So how did you work through that knowing that it was like, it would, you would be crazy to just dismiss the accusation with. Yeah, yeah.

At least following up and just wondering what is true, what's not true? Because, again, like, these are very weird elements. It's a weird environment. So how did you work through it to like not have this ruin whatever trust you guys built leading up to that moment? Yeah, I think like in that in that moment, like I heard what was said. what was, you know, shared. But ultimately, it's like whatever is going to happen moving forward, we're going to figure it out after the fact.

So in that moment, you know, I saw a cat being attacked. I didn't take anything too deep and too personally. I was just concerned about her well-being, making sure that she was, you know, felt safe. And obviously she had to take a moment to kind of do her thing. And my focus also was like, look, whatever it is, like, I'm 36 years old. like there's real shit that goes on in life like if this is something if there's any truth to this if this is what we have to like go through like this is nothing in the grand scheme of things also it's a conversation after the fact because um you know the reality was we could be going

home and those things we could figure out but i wasn't going to pin anything against anybody as truth without having any context or anything and if there was any conversation i was going to go directly to Kat. We were going to have a conversation when emotions weren't high and just speak openly and truthfully. So I think that's also too. We came off and that's what June was for, right? If there was anything lingering or any other questions or this or that. Also, you know, if there's any other carryover from that any relationship goes through, right? Things that spring up that might have been a trigger or something in the past. So, but it didn't affect me. Like, I wasn't thinking about anything that happened before paradise.

ice because all I was focused on was in the moments while we were there, you know, and I also understood where we finished. Yeah. And whatever there was before is something that could be worked through because it didn't really matter, you know, at least not in that moment. This is like such a breath of fresh air. Dude, I know. Girl, I was so scared.

I was like, I mean, that's, I think is a testimony to his like securement with himself because I've definitely been with a decent amount of men that. would hear that and their ego and their things and they would immediately like not want anything to do with it but it is true like we are adults we've been through life we are living our own normal life daily you're just like I'm better this guy anyway so I just like I like I I will say outside of the deaded moment when I it was a trigger and I had a little bit too much rosé um I literally love your rosé I was someone from my team my manager or something and I don't know I don't I don't what the fuck we were talking about and I

I was like, can we just debt? I was like, motherfucker. No, I'm using an in sentence. No, but cat's sitting there like, he's speaking in code. It's like dead. I know. I get it. I get it now.

I actually use it very often. Yeah. But things there, it takes a lot to get a rise out of me. Like, you know, in that moment, that was just a trigger of something that, you know, happened. One of those things that you don't, you don't expect. But it's also like a moment you look back that, like people go through stuff, right? We've all had had our moments and we want to prove a point.

The logic versus the emotion. the timing versus like but uh yeah there wasn't i didn't have any anger towards um really anybody on the show like it takes a lot to get me heated but also it's like what's what's the point like you know why give someone feel to the fire in those moments and yeah ultimately like i didn't want to do i wasn't thinking about anybody else in that capacity or that deeply to where it could affect me and really like break and tear me down the only person who could affect me on the show was cat like that. So that's kind of, it was the approach. Yeah. And Kat, your friendship with Sean. Yeah, so let's talk about the friendship. Let's talk about the friendship with you. I don't want it to be. Two very different

versions. Yeah. And like that's perception, right? And I think I just don't want this to ever be a he said she said thing. But I'll just speak on my experience. Give us the she said. Okay. As long as I'm the she. Sean and I were friends. Like first Paradise, we were from the same hometown. We have mutual friends. And then we kind of were friends after a few Paradise, which was two years. ago, right? And we talked about, like, boy and girl, like, dating stuff, right? He was someone that I talked to about, like, with John Henry and everything. But once I moved to San Diego, we didn't really, like, it was not like we, like, talked every day or, like, monthly or anything. And so he met my ex twice. Okay. So best friends, I don't know. That's how he wants to call it. But he only met him

because my ex and I are from the same hometown. I was home. And then I was like, hey, you should, like, let's meet up, like, at a bar or whatever and say hi and get, like, you know, catch up. And then that's what he meant my ex. So that was the extent. And then as far as holidays, same thing. We did not spend the holidays together. We were at the same local bar and the same hometown during holiday time because I was home. I don't know if you would consider that holidays together, but for me, that was kind of like where it went. And then... You just ran into each other at a bar. Yeah, literally. I didn't even know who's going to be at that bar, actually. That's definitely not spending. Yeah. So I'll tell you the other bar too. It was my first time being there

is in Tampa. And I was like, oh my God, classic. Everybody in Tampa is like, everyone is like around the same goes to the same places. So it was that was, he met my sister there because I was with my little sister. It's not like he's like friends with like hung out. I think someone who they hung out my sister. Like no, she was just with me. And I don't know what the comment was about with my mom. Like I think my mom maybe like DM'd him maybe at one point like saying like thank you for being like a good friend, a cat back the day. And then when I was going on Paradise, I was like, hey, are you, did you get a call? They just called me. And that's when we started like talking again. but still like I mean I have received that can show you we aren't like BFFs I do think he felt

connected to me because we did have that common ground so I feel like that's maybe where he was coming from and felt hurt like as if he was portrayed um but we were like we were friends but I wasn't considering us a close friend so I guess I can give context to I think how this was misconstrued was when um it was right before we started like roast it was like cocktail party and Alicia was went to approach Sean and he was talking strategy again. and I watched her like walk away and get emotional so I went to go check on her like are you okay like everything okay because I didn't see her all day and I didn't know if she knew what Sean was doing so I wanted to make sure she was okay and that's when her and Priza were staying there

she's like he's just talking strategy again whatever she's like well isn't he like one of your good friends like what is this blah blah and I was like well I wouldn't say like good friend so that's how I remember it um and the last thing I thought was that that was going to be like taken to the extent that it was. But that's how I remember the situation. I mean, I'm sure she might remember it a different way or similarly, but that's where I was coming from. It's also just, you know, you're in a, it's heightened situations, row ceremony night, some things can get taken out of context. I mean, being familiar with this world. Yeah. Your story does sound very believable. Okay. I don't want it to come off. Like, it's like, because her experience is that too, you know?

Well, I mean, I just, the word friend or best friend, boyfriend or girlfriend and bachelor world is often thrown around fairly loosely. And a lot of people in this world want to feel connected to this experience. There is definitely, I've always said this world is very high school. There's definitely like a hierarchy. Clicky and yeah. Whether whether that hierarchy is just internalized by each individual of who, their perception of who is a villain or who is popular and they, you know, I don't know what Sean thought of you, good or bad, but I have, I, I, I'm aware that people will

oversell relationships. Right. And we had that competition factor too. I don't know if that's what was going on, but you're, you know, assuming you're telling the truth and I'm not doubt that you are, but like spending, uh, meeting up at a bar on the same town and having one person say we spent the holidays together or saying we're best friends, because I've had moms reach out to me and thanks for their support. And I was like, I've met them once. I, you know. Yeah.

So I get what you're saying. But I think also, like, I am never, like, afraid to be my full self. And I'll always own anything. Like, whatever that may be, I also am very aware that I can sometimes be in my own world. So, like, if there's something about me, like, I stand on everything I say and do. I'm very, like, try to be as authentic as possible. I kind of should probably learn how to not be a little bit sad times. But in that moment, even with Sean, I didn't agree with his actions.

I thought that he was moving very like uncomfortably. And that was like our moment to talk about it, which is kind of like what I thought that conversation was going to be. And it turned into something a little bit more intense. Do you think their accusations at the time in which it came sabotaged you guys? Or do you think you guys probably would have been the ones to leave regardless? I think that was their goal. We're out.

You think you're out regardless. We were out regardless. Once we didn't win that challenge, I didn't think on it, like, yeah. I mean, honestly, he was kind of confused, honestly, like, how people got by in the next round or not. Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't the fact, it wasn't the fact that we, you know, when we didn't win the physical challenge, when you lost it for the team. Yeah. Oh, he was, how poor. I was slowly going up to Andrew being like, how do you handle like a guy that?

It's like been an athlete and like lost because he's really upset and I don't know what to do. Do I just let him talk? Like, do I try to support him? It wasn't about the L. It was going into it. I felt vulnerable for the first time in my life physically, probably. Yeah. And it was, I was, but whatever.

Get home. Yeah. How did it make you feel to hear Sean say that like all of the women were going to be, what do you say, voting against you? Or they didn't like you or something. He made some comment to you. sitting by the pool. Oh, earlier. Yeah, it didn't even make sense.

I don't remember that comment, but I do hear when it's like, no one likes you. I think Alicia's on the chopping block, not cat. Yeah, well, I just didn't, it was really confusing. So my first concern was like, let me go talk to the girls.

And like, where's this coming from? And then that's when I spoke to them and they were like, because I wasn't around when he was having conversations with people earlier in the day. And they're like, no, this is kind of how Sean's been all day.

Like, that's not how we feel. We were worried that like you were like, kind of like, separating from us. Looking back, I've learned that people had like very different opinions than I thought they did about me. Watching it back has been very interesting from that place. But I don't know.

I was just confused by the timing. Like, I'm like, this maybe would have been a better conversation tomorrow because like, it's a ceremony night. Well, speaking of opinions, I want to read you a DM I got on your peers. I'm so scared. Well, it's harsh. I'm going to give you a heads up. But I want to give you a heads up because I'm going to hurt my feelings.

Probably. I didn't know who's doing that But in fairness to you It's gonna be a heads up Because aren't you guys gonna be recording With these people later I just saw I'm so sorry my feelings being hurt

It'd be fine But I want to give you an opportunity To defend yourself Because Phrisa Oh Oh see this I'm saying man I live in my own world She's gonna come for you

So I'm just gonna give you a heads up I'm assuming Based on what she wrote me Really? Really? See this is what I'm saying Like I literally Is she gonna go for Brian?

People are so nice to me I thought she was going for Brian I'm just going to, I just want you to have a chance to respond. When was this sent? Like two weeks ago. A week ago? She's like, hi, cat was a bully the entire time in paradise. Everyone was scared of her.

So nobody ever said anything or stood up to her. We did run into Zoe in New York who kind of said the same thing. Wait, finish. It was basically just like, I let me come on. It was like, please have me on talk about. She's like pitching herself to come on. Then she wanted to also stand. I also want to speak up about Brian because there are.

so many things that weren't shown. But yeah, she just called you a bully. Do you think I'm a bully? It's, no, I don't think you're a bully, but it's not that deep. Like, that's what I, like. I think maybe what she's, so. But if people are going to have opinions. At the end of the day, people are going to have opinions.

Was Parisa one of like your girls? Like, do you feel shocked by that or are you like, you know, she was coming to me about Brian? Like, I'm not going to cry. You know, hold on. I don't want you. No, I just, it's hard. This is hard.

Watching people like, be very, It would be very like, I can't, but this is what this, unfortunately, is what this world is. It's just crazy. It's everyone wants to like be the most. Everyone wants to get a word in. Everyone wants to get the last word. I'm just confused. But the thing is, if you want, if you want to like try to understand everyone's reasoning, you're going to drive yourself crazy because you're not going to find it. I just don't know what's real or not, you know, like. But it's opinions. Yeah, but it's like, so in these moments, like, yeah, she was coming to me for advice about Brian. Like, because I saw a lot of myself. in her and I think she had a little bit of like anxious like and I could understand maybe where he was coming from so like we would get ready for like rose ceremony and stuff too and like we were in the room even with like Alicia like that's and like Zoe was my roommate

and like me and so we connected about our childhood like I was standing up for her against Brian so he didn't like Prisa either so and she didn't like anyway so hearing the things that people have just been saying so she was at taking sides yeah I just uh it's confusing because it's like what's real or not you know with friends is Parisa and Alicia really close? They were roommates. Okay. I don't know where they stand today, but like being called a bully is like I don't, my

intentions are always like to help people, right? Like, or like if they're going to come to me for things, I am a passionate human being. I am Italian. I speak very intensely and I care very deeply and maybe that can understand. I've watched stuff back. I've learned that about myself, like that it can be perceived a certain way. But I think I've, the amount of time that we. We spend with people.

What do you think she's going to? I don't know because people are so, I had no ideally she didn't even like me. Like, like we were friends. Like I was comforting her the night of the rose ceremony. Like I've been there for freezes throughout the brine. You can do everything right and people are still going to have opinions.

And I think that's one of the things that like. I will say like in this world, you know, whether some people agree with me or not, if there are some people who feel shortchanged about their time and convince themselves, that they are the victims of something. Do you feel like it's just Parisa not getting whatever air time or attention? Or do you think there's a specific example

that she's going to bring up where you maybe just didn't remember that? I don't think, I mean, you can speak to this, but that's not an answer that you can come up with. I have no idea. I mean, if your entire recollection. Yeah, of like your experience, Prisa can answer that.

is good and positive and like she loved parisa she stuck like stuck up for she's like i can see where she's coming from her you know some of the anxiousness here like i've been in her position i feel for her so much and so deeply so cat was a fan of parisa i don't know what your guys conversations were like one-on-one but i'm just saying based on the things that you have told me and even you know before this stuff with alicia and sean you never said anything bad about Alicia to me. There was never any conversation. And maybe that's because we were so focused about our own stuff. It's not that what everyone else was doing or saying didn't matter. It's just like we were focused on our world, you know, like that makes sense. So maybe they felt like they were entitled

to your attention more than. No, I don't think that. I think based on how they were acting. If you have opinions, sometimes people are going to perceive and take them the wrong way. But I mean, I think this also like, obviously that was tough to hear. I think this like gives you something to go into. And, like, I thought we had this friendship, but, like, clearly you don't feel the same way. Like, you're going around and, like, you're, like, pitching yourself to go on shows by, like, nobody wants, nobody tells me how they're feeling. Like, if I'm making you feel that way, like, I would love for you to say, hey, you made me feel this way. Like, let's talk about it before just putting a characteristic to me or, like, saying things with so much, like, intensity, so publicly. But then it doesn't give them the, the attention. Yeah, so, yeah, I don't know what their goals are, but nobody that has said any of the things, any of the accusations or spoken on my character, like has had a conversation with me or gotten to know me to that extent or at least expressed their concerns with me so we can work through it.

Because for me, we're friends. And you're in your defense, I was, I read that and was like, why don't they show it? What? Why wasn't it on the entire season? If you were a bully, like, young girls or if you were. I've seen, I've seen people made. be villains over nothing over real you know yeah um so if you were in fact a bully but if i made her feel bullied not to have seen that but if that is how i made her feel in any way i was not aware of

that based on how our interactions were and i would have loved to have because i understand that like sometimes i don't see like how i make people feel like anybody can and i appreciate when someone can just be like honest like i don't like when moving to california i learned like people can be a little bit like nice to your face, but feel a certain way. And I grew up, be as real as possible. And sometimes that could be taken as like being a bitch. Or just if you're direct. I'm very direct.

Some people can't handle that. But. Yeah. And that's, but if I make you feel that way, I would love to have a conversation about it. You know, like, I never want to make anybody feel like, like, bullied. So that I, I, I'm just a lot. I don't mean to hurt your feelings. I know.

I know. It's not you. It's everything because it's been a few things now where I'm just like, man, I don't want to, like, go through life, like, not trusting people. And girls, for me, like, I, I stand with women almost too blindly. Like, it's not even in my bloodstream to stay with a man. So, like, hearing, like, girls, like, be so, like, so much, like, unkindness towards another woman in a world where we're already facing enough adversity. We should be supporting each other and uplifting each other and wanting people to see our hearts. And there's just been a lot of

of not that. And it's hurtful. Do you feel like Zoe, Alicia, and Prisa are two-faced? I don't know what their experience is because they haven't expressed it to me. Right, but that's what I'm saying. Like, if they've been very nice and kind and liking your Instagram pictures or responding to your stories or like, I don't know, has never brought up some sort of issue but then is going back and like DMing someone to like get on the show to bash you, it's like, that's two-faced to me in my. Yeah. I just, it's just confusing. Like, again, Zoe and I were roommates.

I didn't even know she had a feel for Dale. Like, that's how little I knew about people. Like, I learned that watching it back. So I don't know what their intentions are. Maybe things settled and, like, they feel that type of way. But I think you should always have a conversation with that person. If someone makes you feel that way, talk about it, maybe they didn't feel comfortable and they felt more comfortable sending a DM to someone else or, you know, like speaking on things on a podcast.

Maybe you get a chance to ask her. The thing is my therapist told me is that to not try to figure out the whys of people's behaviors, because that's going to drive you crazy. Yeah. Because I always want to try to understand. And maybe it's because I try to, like, it's a control thing. If I can understand that I can embrace myself. But I've learned to, like, just accept. And because I, it's just going to, yeah, it's going to drive me crazy. Because I can never really understand where someone's coming from. Yeah, that's a lot. But no, I, I, I, I feel. I think you answered it. Yeah, I think you're good. Good word. That's just crazy, man. This has been very different than previously. But listen, your best, your best defense is the fact that it is surprising they didn't say anything to you.

And this is information that's catching you off guard. And also, we didn't get to see it on the show. I'm so surprised it didn't air. Yeah. I was surprised they didn't show me, right? First, I was a little annoyed at the editors. And when I heard that, I was just like, well, I could have used that an episode of time. Obviously, it's a little boring.

I know, right? Where's the iPad footage? I would love to see that. That's what I'm saying. There was iPad versus laptop. Like, it's like, let's just like have, if you're going to say things about people and the way they moved,

I think let's make sure we have everything aligned. Well, thank you guys for coming. Yeah. Wishing you guys the best of luck. Thank you for having us. I appreciate it. I hope that, yeah, well, we'll see what happens.

We're wishing you guys making what the best. We're very excited to finally start posting all the picks and like being a real couple. No more hiding. How would you like to. be proposed to. I don't think about that anymore, Nick, okay? I couldn't even tell you Howard

because I, it's... Listen, I was like, I don't even know. I think you lay flat on the ground. I don't know how you do it. I'm like, he knows they wear gold jewelry, okay? I only wear gold. I'm a big believer and like a man is only successful is his woman sets him up for success.

I don't think they're having... Trusty, when we get there, he will know everything. They're just enjoying learning about each other and growing. I just want to know, regardless of this relationship, you must. We all have what we want in our head. I just have nothing to do with Dale. I just want to know. How I want to be proposed to?

How you want to be proposed to? Not on television. We'll start there. Okay. With a gold ring number two. Do you want it documented? Do you want to have a party with friends afterwards? I do.

I think an engagement party, the day of, is the best thing. Because then, like, everyone's excited. Like, that would be really fun. Honestly, your guys' proposal was, like, goals. It was so perfectly executed. I told him. I said, I want it. She was like, I want to document it.

I want a party with friends afterwards. Oh, he'll have an Excel. Like, I will have the X-L. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we get there, he will know everything. He'll have a checklist. But I also trust that he's, he has a wish list. An ongoing wish list that's like for any, for Valentine's Day, for Mother's Day, for

birthday for Christmas. It's a link. It's the color that I want. It's the size that I want. There's a picture of what I want and a link. I mean, I can't. Yeah, I don't fucking know. You can't go wrong.

Like, you literally cannot mess up. I could get a courthouse signature and let's just throw a party and do a desk. I can plan a wedding in three days. He threw an event. Okay, no, seven. He's like a good event planned. I have no, I feel like I just have so much trust with his, like, judgment of things. Like, this is the first time in a relationship where I can be like, okay.

I trust you. Like, I can relax a little bit. I have to say, it's very heartwarming to see you in this relationship. I have always loved how authentic you are even on a couple of seasons ago. When I'm screaming, like you are great to be. You're very authentically yourself. Almost your default. And this is a really beautiful thing to see.

You look very happy. So I'm very happy. I am very happy. It's been very fun. It's a much better experience, I'd say. You love, despite even the challenge. I love, like, Paradise is one of the best experiences in my life. I like, probably had too much fun, a lot, a little too much rosé.

Who did you leave with, like, your closest friends? I mean, I'm tight with, I don't have bad blood with anybody. You know, Jeremy was my roommate. So I still communicate with Jeremy, obviously Brian Spencer all the time. I'm close with Andrew. We don't talk as much following the show. I haven't communicated with Sean, but regardless of what's gone down, like, Sean and I got along on the show.

There were now the moments I didn't agree with, obviously. I don't know. Like, I was just cool with everybody. And I was just having fun. I was just like vacation. I think we learned about people afterwards a little bit. You don't have to answer this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Nothing.

how quickly in your last experience on this show did you know deep down it wasn't going to work like after filming yeah whether it was alignment or just even um you know some things with like family and lifestyles that were not wrong they were just were so different with uh we just had different perspectives and it just became very clear and i think the moment things start seeping into your family your work and like all these other areas of life, I think that's like a pretty telltale sign. And you ride through it for a while, but it started affecting the people around me very negatively. And not even to like the partner's detriment. I think it was just like, sometimes you try to figure out the code and you can't find the

code and it drives you nuts. And you're like, why is, why can't I figure out this code? And I think it's just ultimately when it started affecting the people around me. And I think that's kind of a telltale thing for any relationship, right? Help me learn how to like not. I mean, you give yourself grace. You do the best you can. Relationships aren't easy. Anyways, thanks for coming, guys. We appreciate it.

We wish you nothing but the best. Thank you guys for listening. Hope you enjoy this episode. Subscribe, tell your friends, all that fun stuff. We'll see you tomorrow. We got Katie from Real Housewives of Orange County to address all the drama that's going on in her world. Also, we have Cecilia.

You know her from Tinder Swindler. She's now hosting a new show on. Netflix all about relationship scams. And she is with us to talk about all the dirty Johns that she has been finding out there. It's a fascinating world. That's all tomorrow. We'll see you then. Bye-bye.