The Viall Files - E995 - RHOC w/ Katie Ginella, Love Con Revenge w/ Cecille, DWTS & Unknown Number: The High School Catfish

Episode Date: September 4, 2025

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  Did you watch the Tinder Swindler? Are you a fan of RHOC? Today we’re joined by Cecilie Fjellhøy to talk Netflix’s new show Love Con Revenge. Further, Katie Ginella joins to speak her truth regarding RHOC: Did she talk to Kiki? What did Gretchen say? Is she returning to RHOC? Meanwhile, we discuss all pop culture: Cardi B winning her case, Ally Lewber moving to Charleston, the Dancing With The Stars Cast, the High School Catfish documentary, and Sydney Sweeney potentially dating Scooter Braun.  “I know I was right, I don’t need a polygraph to tell me that.” Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff. Available wherever you get your podcasts and YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774286896 Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  We’ve partnered with Mint Mobile to open a hot takes hotline to hear your scorching hot opinions! Give us your hot takes, thoughts and theories and we’ll read and react to the best ones on an upcoming Reality Recap episode! All you have to do is call 1-855-MINT-TLK or, if you prefer the numbers, that’s 1-855-646-8855 and leave us a message. Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Follow us on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheViallFiles Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0J6DW1KeDX6SpoVEuQpl7z?si=c35995a56b8d4038 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: FIGS -  If you're in healthcare—or shopping for someone who is—you can get 15% off your first order at https://www.wearfigs.com  Mint Mobile - This year, skip breaking a sweat AND breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your 3-month Unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at https://www.MintMobile.com/viall.  Rosetta Stone - The Viall Files listeners can grab Rosetta Stone’s LIFETIME Membership for 50% OFF! That’s unlimited access to 25 language courses for life! Visit https://www.rosettastone.com/viall to get started and claim your 50% off TODAY! ASPCA - To explore coverage, visit https://www.aspcaPetInsurance.com/viall.  Timestamps: (00:00) - Intro (00:13) - Household Headlines (43:53) - Cecilia Interview (01:16:52) - Katie Tells All (01:50:33) - Outro Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @katie.ginella @cecilie_ @ciaracrobinson @justinkaphillips @leahgsilberstein @dereklanerussell @the_mare_bare  

What's going on, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Vile Files reality recap edition. I am your host, Nick, joined by my sexy, beautiful, gorgeous wife, who's now... It's always about my looks. It's never about what's inside. She's always sexy gorgeous beautiful hot But like where is the like Never pure of heart

She's never kind Yeah Never brave Never It's never loving It's never loving She's all those things She's also 27

She's 27 Nick was like honestly this is weird for me You know like you're not really like Young Wow I said let us not forget that you're damn near 50 So I am Definitely still young.

I did not say that. I was just like, wow, you're like, full adult now. I'm in my late 20. Okay, Leonardo DiCaprio. I know, right? That's what I said. He was like, oh, 27, not what I signed up for. Listen, we'll renegotiated 28.

Not what I said. What's Matthew McConaughey and Dason Confused? Oh, yeah, yeah. These girls stay the same age. Not my wife. No, no, no. I stay the same age. Also, Sierra a birthday.

I did. I don't need to share how old I am. Okay. But it was great, and it lasted forever. I went to Ohio Valley in and then did a day at Disney with my fiancé. Oh, my God, cute. Did dinner with some of my girlfriends at the Bel Air Hotel. It was so nice. Wait, what did Connor get you for your birthday?

Was it like the trip? The trip, the Disney, like all that. Yeah. Yeah. And I accepted. Bally. Paid for a Michelin Star dinner. Oh, my God.

And we were stuffed. Oh, my God. How was your birthday? My birthday was lovely. My birthday was lovely. It was sexy, hot, delicious, and so sexy, like, so sexy, like, legs open. It's sexy and beautiful. You know, it was.

I mean, Nick did wake me up at the ass crack of dawn with my gifts, which, like, is so nice that he had gifts. I was like, what time is it? He was like, oh, it's 6'10. And I was like, Oh. River got her gifts, and I wanted River to bring her. You didn't want. River was so excited. She was like, wake up mommy.

And you were like, duh. Yeah. Yeah. She got her two gifts. Rivie got me a gift and Nick got me a gift. It was so sweet. And then Nick made pancakes. Love.

Love. Even though I am, was supposed to be gluten-free. But Nick was like, I feel like your birthday is a cheat day for the gluten. He's like, I think it's too hard for me to figure out what you can eat. That doesn't have gluten-in- Also, I don't need her, like, sadly eating a salad on her birthday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And then, oh, he invited, like. Flowers in. Oh, yes. He had flowers sent in, which were huge in gorge. And then he invited a couple of my friends over. And we, like, had, he ordered in Tai Fung and we had that for lunch. And then drink some wine and just kind of hung out.

And then he cooked a delicious steak meal. It was very lovely. Beautiful. He did great. He did great. And then he looked at me and he said, I want nothing for my birthday. Love that for you. You seem serious, so okay.

I am serious. And I'm like, and honestly, I don't have anything in mind. Her birthday, when she didn't want anything, wasn't cheap. And we need to save some money. And so I got to take one for the team. I told you I didn't want anything. Yeah, I know you did. You not want anything, ain't she?

The fact that you got her something. Exactly. Like when I told me about you, you're crazy. Well, we have a great episode lined up for you today. First and foremost, we never. say this like subscribe tell your friends you know hit that hit that follow button is there a follow button subscribe button i don't know wherever you're listening to us however you're enjoying this show be sure to tell your friends uh on spotify apparently you can dm someone now yep send a message

uh maybe you're tuning in for our special guest katie janella is with us i also i think she's bringing her husband who i don't think he she's planning on having him appear but i'm a big fan of matt i'm not team anyone as i told katie but you you i feed most people in this the Who's team Katie? Me. I am. Her husband's hot, too. He is cute.

I'm team. I ride for her, Charlie. I'm team Matt for sure, because I just love a supportive husband. Same. Same. Even if Katie is wrong, and I'm not saying she is. And a respectful husband. He is respectful.

Because the way he checked Tamara out the door was just like, you talk shit about my wife. Like, let's not do this. And I was like, oh, that's hot. He's not fighting like a housewife. He's fighting with a husband. And we love it. There's a fact. But it's also like God for.

a housewife commits a minor infraction. You know? We're acting like she did something terrible. I don't need my wife to be right, right, with her friends. Exactly. You know. You care about her. And I care about you, Katie.

And her coworkers. Let's be real. They're co-workers. And they're picking on Katie. 100%. Anyways, Katie's with us. We'll get all of your burning questions answered with Katie. Also, we have Cecilia, Philhoi. Did I say that right?

You did. Hard to say. I just learned how to say one thousand. But do you? One thousand. Okay, there you go. There you go. Hey, that coaching's working.

It is. We are proud. Now we have to have our 1,000th episode right now. No, no, no, no. Well, I haven't really, it doesn't flow yet. I have to still a 1,000th. Think about it, right? So I think we'll celebrate our 1,000th, into our 1,000 episode.

It's getting worse as you go on. To celebrate our 1,000th episode, Nick is going to say 1, 1,000 times. That's the entire hour and a half episode. Zippo Zebra, Xylophone, Mozart. These are my words. I have to practice. Is this your practice? You did all of them so well.

We have Cecilia. From Love Con Revenge, a new show coming out on Netflix that's all about... Love, Con, and Revenge. Well, like, relationship scammers. Like, basically Dirty Johns. Romantic fraud. Romantic fraud. Excited to talk with her.

Which it is crazy to think that anyone would, like, give their money away, you know, like if a man asked me for money and was like, hey, I just need like a quick, like $5,000 to help with my mortgage, I would be like, good luck. No, but these, but these are fascinating, these people's stories. But these men are so, they're so like, I just, my dog died and my mom and I love you so much. One's like a war veteran who like faked a hero story, you know, not even like, not even that he was a hero, that someone's, like, it's a whole thing. It's crazy.

I was like, the wellness company one. I was like, that kind of makes sense or even the fact that they will like pay them back in the beginning, smaller amounts to gain the trust. It's like, okay, that's a real, yeah, it's a real business. We also had Cat and Dale on yesterday's episode of Going Deeper as they wrapped up Bachelor in Paradise. They're still together. Yeah.

They are still together. And honestly, they look like they're doing good. They're hot together. They're hot together. Dale seems like very understanding of Kat's emotional side, which I don't think most men are. And I love that for her. Yeah. Dale does speak like a politician.

He does. Sometimes I ask questions. I was like, I don't mean, not even entirely sure what you're saying. Yeah, but I was like, okay. It's long. It's well thought out. It's long. You said a lot of sentences out.

Yep, it is. It's not the worst thing in the world to have a man who's PR dream. You know, the other, but the opposite side of that, you're right, is worse, for sure. I kind of, and also, like, I believe Kat's version of a. events when it comes to some of the, like, we had Alicia on who told her story. We didn't have Prieta on. Prisa sent me a message basically saying, cat's a bully. Right. I thought based off of Alicia being here that Kat was dating someone else, I might have read into that incorrectly. Well, yeah, I mean, Alicia said point blank, and I mean, they said it on the finale that Kat went into Bachelor in Paradise with a boyfriend.

this boyfriend was like friends with Sean some text messages or something but I really I need an iPad in we asked Kat about all of it she answered all of it so I believe her version and I do because I do I do think sometimes to Kat's point people don't stop their lives

to go on this show right this idea that you're supposed to like cleanse both figuratively and emotionally and mentally your life and your body if you go on a Bachelor world for love that you're supposed to like abstain from talking to anyone, communicating with anyone.

Many of these people like Cat and Dale decided to go days before they actually went, not sure if they're going to go. No one in dating culture today is defining relationships. No one. Yeah. You know, no one has a boyfriend or a girlfriend. They're all just dating. So like maybe Kat was dating someone and talking to someone.

And maybe she went out of a show not thinking she would meet someone. I just don't think that's much of a crime that many people who go on the show try to weaponize and use against their peers. I just don't think it's that much of a crime. And if Kat really met someone like Dale and was like, I really like this guy, I just don't think it's that big of a deal. And I also don't think going to the bars is spending the holidays with someone. And so if she's telling the truth, then Sean and Alicia are giving, you know, the typical, like, We didn't go as far as you, energy, and we're going to use your typical Bachelor tropes and accusations to try to, like, take you down because, like, we didn't have the same experience that you had. That moment was embarrassing, in my opinion, secondhand when they were, like, exposing Kat.

And it was just like, we're going to call, we're calling a meeting together. And I was like, oh, this is, this is not landing the way that you think it is. And it's kind of like the age old bachelor thing where it was like the person that tries to get somebody else kicked off by being like, no, they're awful. and they're this, and it's like, you're gone. Yeah. Like, no. It did not work out the way that they intended it to. Yeah.

So, like, if they really are together and they seem to be, I'm not sure what's the crime. Yeah. You know. They went on a show. They met. They fell for each other. No crime.

It's not that hard to believe that cat didn't have a boyfriend. She was, like, talking to a guy. Yeah. Anyways, Dancing with the Stars has revealed its new cast, and it seems like it's pretty good. Headlining that cast, you know? You're not excited?

Dylan Afron. Well, love, obviously, like, love Dylan Ephron, Alex Earle. You have Jen and Whitney from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I also love the combination of Hilaria Baldwin with Gleb, like the drama. I'm sorry, did you all see her tagline? No. She's dancing with Gleb. We're going to get Glebe on.

The concept of Alec Baldwin watching his wife on Dancing with the Stars with Gleb. Gleb was also partners with Lisa Vanderpump, and there was like a bunch of scandal about them being a partnership, because they kind of always like lean into things. We got to get hilarious on. Please. Have you guys seen the Baldwin's? Zoom in to her tagline. Can you zoom on that?

They have taglines? Well, it's like their jobs, you know? Like they're like... What is hers? Yoga instructor, Alec Baldwin's wife. Have you guys seen the Baldwin's? Have you ever watched it? No.

It's one of the most brain melting things in the world because it's like, obviously Alec Baldwin had that whole thing. thing with that movie where he did that thing and people yeah where he killed someone and accidentally accidentally and everyone was like this guy sucks and then you watch the baldwins and you're like you know what put him back on tv give him a role he needs to get out of his house i don't know what happened that so that movie and accidents can be terrible and i i don't i don't know what's going on there and i really who the victims involved very sad very sad um he seems to be a supportive husband who loves his wife. He loves his wife and all her accents. And I think that's an

admirable trait. Uh-huh. Even when she's like yelling at him on a red carpet in front of an interview. Yeah. Or when he's just like sadly walking next to her on a beach on the bald ones. Maybe it's just a whole bit. It could be. He has like 18 kids. Yoga instructor. I guess so. We got Dylan Efron, Robert Irwin, Whitney Levitt, Jen Affleck, Alex Earle, Danielle Fischel. Topanga. Jordan Childs. I really think Dylan. Dylan's going to go far.

Jordan? Dylan. Oh, I think Jordan will too. Jordan Childs is like, yeah, incredible gymnast. But that's, again, they love a non-dancer who might, Joey, right? Dance very well. Danced excellently. But like a lot of people didn't expect Joey, former bachelor, for have his hips be as loose as they were.

Jordan Childs like okay gymnast is like okay Alex Earl we're expecting her to crush we're expecting her to know how to dance Are we

Elaine Hendricks is diva Diva Meredith We have Scott from Pentatonics Cool Don't know who that is

I do Amazing voice Incredible voice Yeah Yeah You said amazing voice You said amazing voice They're gonna try

What he's doing They have like It sounds like It sounds like it on on, on, on, on, uh, on, uh, on, on, uh, on YouTube. It's like, like, hallelujah. His, his, him and his, like, uh, pentatonic. Natalie, you know penitonic. I do not know. Circa, it's 2014 to now. They're massive. I mean, you grew up in, you grew up in the South around Christmas time. You heard

penit. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no. No, I didn't. I'm going to tell you who I heard. Who'd you hear? If I could think of their name. Acapella. The little drummer boy? No, it was all the sisters. Oh, Simorelli. Simorelli I know them too That's Yeah I don't know these people I am so sorry for this man

I'm not know this man I'm so sorry for this man but I do not know this man Anyway, they're really great Lauren Drugie from Fifth Harmony which they just reunited without Camilla Cabeo I know she's in Miami But she commented some hearts

So no heart feeling Yeah she did come at heart She did come at heart Justin has really been writing So she's going to be Fourth Harmony It might be come It might be come Like Camilla just couldn't make the flight

For like the one performance Camilla, it's too big. Normani was on my season of Dancing with the Stars. I love Normani. I was talking shit then. I was like, why aren't you guys Fourth Harmony?

I was trying to get in her head. But she's... Lovely person. She's become a solo artist. Camilla and Normani are the ones that blew up the most out of all of them, I believe. I've had a solo album, too.

I liked one of her songs, that's why I'm like, maybe... Niche. Is she the bisexual one? Why is it always about their sexual album? I just personally growing up remember which one was bisexual. I don't care her you love.

Period. Do you think Sidney Sweeney cares about Scooter Ron? You know what? I respect her game. She don't get a fuck. Sidney Sweeney doesn't. Her dating the most hated man in America

alongside, I don't know, Connie West is like crazy. She's committing to the bits. She don't get a fuck. She's like, I'm going to do me. I'm going to do what I want. I'm going to make my money. I'm going to go to billionaires' weddings. I'm going to date, you know,

unpopular. in pop culture she doesn't give a fuck them allegedly meeting at the basos wedding too is like the funniest part it checks out it does it just always like yeah that makes sense i i in a in a world where we need to have the the guts to just be us and not worry about what everyone in the internet is saying because no one can mind their own business like now that was putting out the other day like everyone this thinks everything is about them it was i don't know if you've seen this but it was this woman and i cannot remember her name but she posted a video i guess she's married to some like major league baseball player she posted a video saying that like she's pregnant

she's going into the hospital to like the hospital tour and she like didn't have her husband with her and she was like oh my god guys I was like so embarrassed because like everyone was probably looking at me like oh this is just some like young girl who got knocked up like she's probably like some single mom and I was like so embarrassed everyone in the comments like I'm a single mom and I'm not embarrassed it's like everyone just takes everything so personally it's like why do you let that offend you like I was raised by a single mom and like I read it I heard it and I was like oh okay cool she fell embarrassed like who gives a fuck yeah she just like wanted her husband there and it was this more like she her husband would normally be there if he wasn't like throwing

baseballs a hundred miles per hour she wishes he was there and she was expressing that and the whole internet fucking came for her and she had to make an apology video being like crying like this isn't what i meant like i'm so sorry to everyone i've offended and it's like guys you all have got to be able to just see something you don't agree with in scroll emotionally regulate and that's why sydney swiney is like she is helping she's healing America by letting people know it's like honestly if you don't like what I'm doing move the fuck on sure

I don't know if people are able to move on from Sydney Sweeney I think you should it's really not your problem she did make a good point about the bath water thing she was like everyone loved it when Jacob Alorty did it after salt water salt bath whatever the fuck yeah that salt water

I loved it but like he made his bath water bath bomb and everyone was like eating that shit up and she was like but I can't Yeah. Yeah. Scooter Braun is wild, though. She's like, what is going to piss off the masses even a little? Not the world.

Yeah. But it's like, at the core, Sydney, Sweeney is just like a girl who moved to Florida and started dating like a, like, lame dude. What? Whoever the fuck she wanted. Exactly. And I'm like, that I honestly tracked. Good for her. Good for her.

And also good for Cardi B because Cardi B has won her civil case against. Not guilty. Or I'm just going to say it, innocent. She did not hit that bitch. Innocent. She said, and I did not call her fat. I called her a bitch. She's not liable for any damages.

But what's crazy is on their lunch break while the jury, I guess, is deliberating or before the jury breaks to deliberate. She goes outside. And of course, I don't know why her team led her outside to the front, to the paparazzi and the news reporters. Like, she should have gone out a back door or a side door. And she goes out the front. And someone says something about her offset, her ex-husband, like, fighting for paternity rights

and just, like, asking about her current boyfriend, just, like, questions that have nothing to do with this case. And she goes over to someone wanting an autograph takes their pen and throws it at her assault trial. She throws a pin at this reporter. Again, I don't see her doing anything wrong. I know. It was definitely valid. But it was like maybe wait until, like, after the jury has, like, given you your. She said, do you not hear?

Like, I know, I won. Come at me. And then the, of course, you know, the plaintiff's lawyer is like going to bring this up. You know, they go back into court and he's like, well, at lunch break, let me tell you what Ms. Cardi B did. And he's like, and I have the video to prove it. And she did that on court grounds at this court. He's like really trying to like pull at the judge's like court, the court on the court ground,

she assaulted somebody. And the judge was like, well, if the court didn't see it, then he's like, well, I can show you the video. And he's like, well, I'm sure you can. But, like, the court didn't see it. So it's fine. Is that the party alone? How do you think the barbs feel about Cardi being innocent? I think they feel great.

And props to Cardi B. The barbs? Oh, the barbs. They don't, yeah. The barbs. They might. Are they still beeping? I don't know.

I mean, it's hard to tell. I feel like the barbs, I feel like it's barbs against everyone because of what Nikki has done. Why can't these fan groups all come together? Like, why can't the be high? What are the Swifties and the beehive and the barbs? That's the Taylor Swift's fan base tries a claim. Like, we all have crowns, right?

That one line she is. You know, I don't know if the Swifties are that kind to want to give their crowns out. That's true. That's true. They try it. And the thing about the beehive is like when they come at you, at least personally, I've been like, you've been attacked by the beehive? I've been attacked by the beehive, but I've been like when we were talking about cowboy car. You do kind of look like a Swifty. Okay.

They were like I don't know how to take that Oh my god It's a bandana in your hair I'm femme today you guys Americana Yeah Americana it is Anyway

I was like you know what Fair point I think sometimes when the stands come out You gotta be like you know what You know you need a Cindy Sweeney it You need not give you fuck Yeah Well you know who's doing that Karen Huger

She's released from jail And these already cameras Following her own Which is why Did she just go to jail? Yeah I think it was six months or something. She had a quick little turn around.

There's a quick six months. Yeah. You know, when you're not in the jail, it goes by fast, when you're not actually serving the time. Yeah. She was waving to the people as the car drove out. It was cute. Like, when you're a fan from the outside, it just breezes right by.

You know? We don't know if it's Bravo cameras, though, but there were cameras in her car as she exited the jail. I mean, who else would it be? Can she make merch? Like her own personal gopros? I feel like that's not right. I mean, season 10 premieres October 5th.

So, yeah, they probably just did like a pickup. Potentially, yeah. Oh, yeah. Or an ID documentary called Thomas Jefferson's Concubine. She should make merch. That's still like my favorite thing ever. It's the funniest thing you could say. T.J.'s comp.

I think she's going to try to hide that in her past. She definitely is. She's bearing that. She's burying that. And Brittany Carrey went on a romantic getaway with her new boyfriend. So it's confirmed the man. So it is confirmed that man. And is he married?

Jackson, show up. According to the woman claiming to be his wife. She says that they're married. She says that they're married. Wait, there is another person out there who's claiming to be married to Britney's boyfriend? Yeah. Yeah. She's like left a comment on there being like, that's my husband.

I'm going to try to find it directly. But, yeah. Oh, boy, Brett. According, like, they're both going through separation is what I'm hearing. That's what I heard. And, like, that's how they've come together. You're going through separation. That's not your man.

So anymore, you're trying to separate or he's trying to separate from you. But can't she just find a free agent? There's plenty of single. lonely men out there that's it i also like the the dynamics of like a separation versus like going through a divorce though where i'm like so because it technically is still her husband right because they haven't filed for divorce listen if you're on a date right and and divorce takes a long time and it can be messy and you go on a date and someone's like listen i'm married but i'm separate and i'm not divorced like immediately you have a lot like you have a long list of questions to

ask how does your wife feel about this even if you hate her and don't want to date them Like is she going to, is she going to be a problem? Is he going to be a problem? Are they going to be going on my Instagram commenting? That's my husband. Like, is it really worth it? Like, and in my experience, people who are separated but not divorced where they have like messy divorces and they're already going on trips with their new partners. Like usually those things don't go well. Especially somebody who would be photographed. So I would say that. But I'm like it's also giving an air of like Randall and Lala with the ex-wife being like we were still. married but he was telling her they were separated also Kristen said she met the man and like he's a genuine person right so it seems like a great relationship this is just messy do you think brittany paid for the vacation or do you think he did i just don't think brittney wants peace she paid for everything with jacks i don't think we know anything about this person besides his name brandon yeah and that his ex or his wife is commenting saying he's my husband and that man is married hmm i don't know is that scammer material do you think i mean they are self

it up on this beach. It's potentially scammer material. Yeah. You know, married but separated, immediate red flag. The insider divulged the pair reconnected well after he had already been separated and explained that they found comfort in each other as they've been navigating the respective divorces and personal life changes. I mean, like, is Brittany even officially divorced yet or is she still separated from that? But I said, I think they're both separated. I don't know that official filings have happened.

So I think that the term of being married, it seems like this woman maybe saw her legal husband getting some. attention and in a public-facing relationship and was like, let's go. Absolutely the fuck not. Such a messy. Messy. I mean, listen, and people do it. It's just like it's not going to not be messy. Yeah.

I just don't know that this would work out well and like hashing it out publicly anyways. You know what I did? Did you see Allie Louber move to Charleston? We heard about it. We did hear about it. I think maybe it's just like she's summering in the South. Yeah, she said she's following her astrology or whatever it is and just seeing what happens. She's following the charts.

The charts. Maybe just like the chart letter to like a month-long Airbnb. Speaking of which, we followed the charts on Tuesday's episode. We had not that cosmic, an astrologist who accurately predicted the fallout between Love Island's ace, Nick and Taylor, and gave her predictions on Nicolandria, which, speaking of fan bases, I don't know if they have a name. They were not pleased with her prediction. And it came for us. Oh. So I was like, I thought we said something nice about Nicolandria.

And then I forgot that we had the astrologer on who gave their prediction. Oh, that they were, shoot, that they were going to either define the relationship or break up. Yeah. But I'm like, isn't that just, they're going to define the relationship or break up? You do one or the other anyways in life. Hey, it's been X amount of time. They're either going to get married or break up. I don't think we're allowed to say their name unless we're just simply obsessed.

I personally am obsessed with Nickelandria. We're here for it. Well, you know what I'm not obsessed with. What are you not obsess with? The new doc on Netflix, unknown number the high school catfish. I'm pretty sure it's just rage bait in a movie because there is no happy end. There's nothing to root for. Spoiler, if you haven't watched it, you want to watch, you plan on watching it.

Skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip. I do think you're better off listening to what we have to say. You'll still enjoy it because it's a fucking crazy story. It's a documentary, right? It's a doc. Yeah, it's a movie, yeah. Well, movie and doc. Documentary film.

Tell them about it, maybe. Okay, it's a documentary film. A documentary movie just feel like that's not the same as a documentary film? Well, it's not a, well, some docks are episode one, so two, episode three. This is just, it's an hour and a half. Okay. It's real life, though. You were right.

And this happened in 2022, I believe. And it is absolutely that shit crazy. So this 14-year-old girl is in a relationship. Relationship with another 14-year-old boy. They're in, like, junior high, however, whatever grade you're in. You know, young kids in love, whatever. 14. And all of a sudden, it's around Halloween, and they get a text, group text, her and her boyfriend, from an unknown number.

And it's like, Owen doesn't want you, you stupid bitch. Like, you're not going to the Halloween party. He wants me instead. And they were like, oh, like, who's messing with us? Like, this is so weird. Like, okay, whatever. Anyways, it goes on for two years. Well, it stopped for like a few months, maybe nine months, and then it started up again.

And when it started back up again, it became incredibly excessive. Thousands of messages a day. 700 pages worth printed out of text messages over the course of two years. Saying things along the lines of you are anorexic, you should off yourself. You should kill yourself. And this is anonymous? Yes. It's all from, it's from a, they like, have an app.

that, like, changes your number constantly. So it's not, like, oh, just someone's phone that they... It's giving, like, pretty little liars. Like, it's giving pretty... It is, it is. So then it's a lot of, like, Owen wants someone who will have sex with him and give him BJs. And, like, you're not doing that. Like, really disgusting messages.

Very graphic. Very, very sexual. Very vulgar. And so they're like... It's giving teenage, like, mean girl, right? And it is... Nally and I went to a rodeo the other day. Oh.

okay if you were skipping you can stop for now I guess this is a family event and I was getting I was getting some food for our family and I walked past

this group of like I don't know I don't know 12 13 girls and I just I walked past them and I heard some of the most shocking things out of the mouths of these young women and it was scary as a parent

but only I'm sorry for interrupting just pointing out that like it is you realize as a parent that like your kids grow up fast and when they go to school like it's scary to think that 14 year old girls might say something like this but it is it is giving that like young mean girls

who's maybe parents like let them watch rated our movies might talk this way. Yeah. You know, because they're online. What is that movie where they say like hell is a teenage girl? Yeah. Like teenage girls are some of the scariest people on the planet. So even though these messages are horrific,

it is giving like, yeah, I don't know, maybe like. And they're saying a little. lot of very like personal things things that like you know only like the group of friends would know or like yeah so the you know the parents were like this has to be someone who's close to them because they know these details either they're like following very closely or it's someone in this group they take it to the school the school starts like watching back security footage to try to see who's on their phone as the time of the text message comes in like they finally take it to the police the police starts like invest you know like talking to everybody in the

school doesn't really come up with much. They try to like pin it on some other girl. Yeah, there's a couple like suspects. Some of the girls who like, for example, Owen had a friend who was also close to him who didn't get along with Lauren, his then girlfriend, who he described as not a bully but not nice. You know, police thought it was her for a moment. And then finally they come up with like a dead end. And they're like, we just can't trace this number. Like we just can't figure it out. So finally they go to the FBI. They pull in the FBI. This is, we're now like two. and a half years later. The text messages are still coming in. Owen and Lauren have since broken up. Skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip. Sorry, just letting them know.

Whatever. Listen. Owen and Lauren have since broken up, but the messages keep going. And like Lauren and Owen are still being kind of harassed. He gets like a new girlfriend and then this new girlfriend's who's like from like a different town's mom starts getting messages. She's like, hey, someone just texted my mom from a random number. Like, do you know who this is? And he's like, I'm so sorry. Owens' mom, Jill. I mean, these families are being harassed. It's just like it's this dark person who won't leave them alone.

And it's just like they can't figure out who it is. Owen is like someone's mom. Owen's responding to the text saying like, you're making me want to, you know, off myself. Like, please stop sending me these messages. Like, what do you want for me? You know, it's just so dark. It's so sad. The FBI finally is able to track IP addresses from the app to Verizon.

in Verizon, it comes back as Lauren's mom. Oh. Her mother. What? It's so sick. This mother is telling her daughter that the boyfriend, she's not giving the boyfriend blowjob. A 14 year old isn't giving her boyfriend blow jobs or sex and like she needs to do better.

Wait, wait. What does the mom do? What is her? So the mom. Turns out she worked for like a tech company. She worked for a tech company and was fired by both of her jobs. No, no, no. Just was fired.

So they had a lot of financial issues. She didn't tell her husband. she was fired she was lying to the whole family of like yeah i gotta go to work meanwhile she's literally just sending her daughter thousands of messages a day that was her job what the fuck so she was unhappy about her life and like had to make her daughters like you told your daughter to like kill herself how could you do that and she's like well i just knew she wouldn't so that's why i was very frustrating uh honestly she's like laughing through it it's sick how what's the justice that gets served in said situation well she goes to jail she goes to jail thank god for

the maximum sentence, I think it was like 19 months. For like federal stalking. Not enough. No, it definitely wasn't enough. And they, you know, my frustration with the doc, I'm trying to find, they interviewed the director and there was a quote here. I was like, what are the protections for

the daughter when the mom gets out? It's so sad because the daughter, well, the daughter's like, you know, while the mom's in prison, she's like, we talk twice a week. She's like, I miss my mom. Like, I miss. It's a lot of trauma. It's really sad. You know, she's like an only child. She's Like, that was, like, my closest person, my best friend.

Like, I miss her. I miss the, like, feeling of having my mom around. The really frustrating part with the doc to criticize how it was put together, specifically the director, it seemed to empathize with the mom more than I wanted it to. Because, yeah, it was just more like, well, first of all, the mom participated in the dock. So while you're watching the doc. She's in the dock. Yes, the mom's, like, telling you, like, about what's going on.

She's crying. She's being like, and these people were harassing my daughter. And we don't know it's her until later. We don't know it's her. And then when they finally caught her, she said that it wasn't me at first, but then like, and her explanations make no sense.

She's clearly lying, clearly this compulsive liar. I mean, you can clear, this is like a sick person. They don't bring any type of like psychologist up, you know? Like it was giving like they actually, the,

the principal of the school who was kind of buffoony, but had a, had a guess. He kind of guessed his analysis or his like, diagnosis, which seemed kind of accurate. It was giving kind of Munchausen, a la Gypsy Rose. You know, like hurting her daughter so that her daughter needs her

more. Oh, interesting. But certainly, but also there was like, a clear, weird obsession with this Owen guy. Yeah. Because if it continued after they broke up, that's and going after his girlfriend, and then you find out from after the fact that his mom was showing up to his games.

He's a minor too, which... Yeah. So that gave it very weird. And then, so the, the director was interviewed by variety because people were surprised that the mom participated in the doc and she says I quote she actually ended up really loving the experience at the end of it she said it was kind of fun she laughed about things and I think it was really an opportunity for her to think about things a little bit more in depth every time I would ask a question she would really have to think about things and I think that was good for her who gives a fuck what was good

for her if I ever saw this woman in person it's on site I would be arrested Yeah. Like how this director was able to be like... I just don't know why the director empathized with this mom more than like the actual victims like Lauren and Owen. And I want to I want a diagnosis here. I want bring on some psychologist. Explain to me why a mother would do something this horrific to her child. Right.

Right. Like the best the best we got was from the mom that giving like, well, I, you know, she talked about being a victim of some terrible things when she was 17 and talked about childhood trauma and it's just like no i get it like we down that even become a bit of a trope and again like yes our childhood traumas can explain some of our very bad mistakes and and things that we do and have to heal from this is a whole other level of like emotionally abusing your child and other children over the course of two years uh lying to your entire community and family i need you to explain to me something so dark and horrific other than like I had some childhood trauma that I have to deal with.

And then the director kind of like humanizing this mom in a way that I'm just not interested in her being humanized. I think that's kind of like the issue of like the ethics of true crime a lot of the time when you kind of get into it because at a certain point you are kind of platforming these terrible people in order to you're telling a compelling story first and foremost versus like trying to have justice for the people that they're. this happened to. I mean, to understand the story, you have to understand the mind. Yeah, and you have to like empathize with these people. Yeah. Because it's like this, just this mom who's like doesn't

feel like she really did anything that wrong. She literally says, everyone's made mistakes. And like, I'm sure everyone has done something illegal. Like, I'm sure everyone listening has like drove drunk at least once. Like that's illegal. That's the same thing I did, but just like different. Are you crazy? But there was no like, no one questioned that. They just let this woman say that without any like objection to it. And then she says something like, she was like trying to pull up a photo or something. She's like, oh, y'all are going to think I'm a crazy lady. Well, yeah. Yeah.

We do. You're sick. But then, like, it was, I mean, Claire, you could tell the director didn't like, there was another set of parents, the parents of the alleged mean girls that they thought might have done it. The one girl who, Owen said, my friend's not a bully, but she's not nice. And then they interviewed this person's parents who, like, you can kind of, like, you can, you know, if your kid. are bullies in school, then you meet the parents. Sometimes you go, oh, no, I, it makes sense. At the very, you know, they were like, I don't know why our, our, everyone thinks our daughter's a bully.

She just, she's just, like, popular. Yeah, they're like, she just has friends from all the other schools, and they're probably jealous of that. Like, okay. And then at the very end of the dock, they get sound bites from these two parents who, you know, they're frustrated that daughter got accused for something she didn't do. Totally get that, right? But then they're like, then they throw the local cop under the bus and say he's a piece of shit, and then also blame

Lauren the girl, the real victim in this and her dad, who also has been lied to by his wife, without any evidence. They're like, I think they had a part in it. And it's just like, nothing didn't. And you could just, in that moment, you're like, yeah, now I know why your daughter is described as not a bully

but not nice. But like, it was just full rage bait, like the whole time you're just mad. I have so many questions. Yeah. I'm gonna watch it. It's, uh... Are the parents still together? No. See if I'm not that. I know it's complicated, but like, if I'm that dead, I'm out. Yeah, no, the dad was like, when he found out, like, the cop has, like, the body cam on.

So you see, like, you see, like, you see the moment he finds out. It's, it's sad. It's so sad. Yeah. But is it, like, as, as new parents, you know, we feel so lucky to have River and so blessed. And we are trying our best to be good parents. And I'm sure we'll make our mistakes. But it is scary when you watch these, these docs to know that there are just sick people out there who are.

parents you know there are parents out there who will like allow their kids to be 12 13 years old and go to a rodeo and have their kids like act like adults saying horrific things that they're not supposed to be saying and like how do you protect your kids from these people it's a scary world out there home school I don't know no when I was 12 I was definitely saying crazy as shit yeah I mean I got catfished by a girl I knew in middle school that's some crazy lore yeah yeah on kick Oh, we'll see. We were raised on kick. Yeah.

So there's an anonymous texting out. And it was like kids dating these adults that were like hidden behind crazy. Yeah. So I was like obviously myself like in middle school and there's this girl I was friends with and she was like, oh, I have this cousin and she's like in love with you. And at the time I was like, that's disgusting. Like you, girl on girl. I was like, ew, no.

Why would you think that? about me and but is she interested no I was like and then it was like this like random person like there was a whole name and everything and started like messaging me on kick and I was like stop talking to me and then there was like a fake she made like a fake Instagram profile for it and was like if you don't want me like I'm going to go to the FBI and I was in sixth grade and I was like yeah I was like I was like oh my god like is this like and but then at the same time I was like I know this is you bitch. Like, I know this isn't real, but it, like, still fucks with your head when you're, like, a kid like that. Anyway, yeah, I got catfish. But I also think it's kind of terrifying

because, like, at least when I was in school, like, it's like maybe like an anonymous note left in a locker, not like a whole, like, internet profile made to troll. Like, I don't know. The whole community, whole school knew about this. That's insane. It's like the whole, like, internet aspect of it where I was like, I got it towards the end with like AIM and like live journals and things and people. would write anonymous, like, post about people. That's coming back. There's social media apps now where, like, it's per school.

It's like Ask FM. Oh my God, Ask FM. Exactly. Up next, we have Cecilia Filhoi from LoveCon Revenge. Also, she was one of the victims on Tinder Swindler. He is now going after perpetrators on Netflix's upcoming series that focuses on romance fraud, and they'll be going after some of the same type of people that conned her. but now she is the one on the hunt, so to speak.

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Welcome to the show, Cecilia. How are you? Oh, I'm good. Thank you for having me. We're very excited to have you. Such, I mean, I don't know even know how to describe LoveConn Revenge or just, I guess, this space, this scam artist space that you've become a part of, very unfortunately, but you've, in the best possible way, I've seen to, like, you know, reclaim your power. And now with Love Con Revenge, um, helping some. of these other victims, these women who are being scammed by these men. So just very excited to have to get a chance to speak with you. I think this is a space that has fascinated so many people. Obviously, Tinder Swindler captivated us, fascinated us. It scared us. There were so many

questions and there are so many judgments that come along with this space. But I just love to start with hearing a little bit from you. What has this whole experience been like kind of becoming a public figure from Tinder Swindler. Yeah, let's just start there. Yeah, I think what I say a lot of times is like, I love true crime and suddenly ended up in one yourself. I think I am one of the ones who always are on Netflix, like looking after the latest thing. So kind of seeing kind of the popularity and what the Tinder Swindler actually became and the phenomenon, it was just astonishing. But I think I was kind of lucky in a sense that how I was defrauded was just so wild. So people had a real kind of what the F, if I can curse. What is it? I can curse. What the

fuck? So yeah, it's it's been mind blowing to kind of that this is my job now. That is very weird. Yeah. Obviously, I think when it comes to this space, for lack of a better word, to try to describe it. I think there is a huge fascination and shock, I think, for audience members, both like the, I think the shock of these perpetrators, these men, almost like the shock of like, oh, these, like, the realization that, like, icky men like this exist. And then I also think there's a lot of, you know, quite honestly, like judgment and confusion is it relate to the victims. And I think a lot of people have this, like, how could you, be so stupid. How could you let this happen? Certainly these lies are elaborate, but for someone

who's been a victim, can you try to put us in the minds of what it's like to meet these type of men and explain why they're so convincing and why they're able to do what they do? Because I think in a lot of cases, these aren't victims who are stupid or who you would ultimately think know better but what is going on? Get us into the psychology of why this is able to happen. Yeah. I think first of all, I think fraud is one of the very few crimes

and others some others as well where we're really focusing on the actions of the victims and the actions of the perpetrators and the criminals and we're asking them why they did what they did. And this would have never happened if we didn't have criminals kind of starting everything

and making them do it, which is really, really sad. But I think I always go back to that this is just so human. they're using that human trust and they're using that we're all vulnerable when we're looking for love. And that is not a crime. I always go back to it when people say, oh, you were too stupid or you were naive. That is not crimes. And these are highly sophisticated, highly organized criminals that are coming together to actually abuse people. And that is what I really, what part of my activism is actually changing that language, kind of falling for a scam for example.

example, we don't say that you're falling for a rape or a falling for a burglary. You know, this is something that's happening to you. So that kind of, like you're being targeted by criminals. So what is happening is that they take you through kind of a journey, I call it like trust engineering almost. They know the tactics that work when people are looking, for example, for love and that kind of now it goes into more crypto investments, you know, like let us build the future together. Now it's not so much about people being in danger.

So they're doing love bombing, you know. It sounds like that you found your soulmate. And a lot of people are lonely in this world. And they're always wanting just to find that one. And I just don't feel that it's right that we meet these people when they come out on the other side being abused and battered and we laugh at them. So for me, there's several tactics that plays here where you both have future faking people really want you to kind of be together

and create that future with marriage and kids. I had that too, you know. I was straight there, was ready when I was 30 years old to, you know, find a man of my dreams. And that is all. And after a while, it becomes an abusive relationship. That's how I see it. That you're in it. And there's someone that is not treating you right, putting you into situations that they

shouldn't. For example, you know, taking up credit or taking out your pension or whatever. But we can't see it. it because we're deep into it. So it's very similar to domestic abuse. They isolate you from friends and family. So you feel that it's you against the world. So there's like plethora here. And kind of the last one that I think is so important why we continue to stay. You know, sometimes it's like, why did you understand why, for example, in my case, why did you end up a $250,000 before you understand you were being defrauded? But we have something called a sunk cause

fallacy where the more effort we put into anything, you know, relationships, business, it's much more difficult to turn your back on it. And especially if you realize you've been, you know, a crime has been committed against you. And that's something that you've kind of done to yourself. It's really difficult to get out of. Yeah. Well, that that sunk cost fallacy with, I think the most relatable example is for anyone who's in a relationship and their friends are like, I just don't know if he's your guy. And they're like, but we've been together for four years or five years. And like we've put in so much work.

And so many people stay, you know, minus taking away of the fraud element, just like a normal relationship that maybe isn't just serving itself or it's ran its course. So many people will stay in those relationships because of this idea that they've already invested so much. And that's, to your point, it's even in generally healthy, but just like it's not working relationships, people will stay in those relationships. much longer just because of the work they did in it. And to your point, like, it's not shocking to hear. It's just like when these types of atrocities happen to these victims, it must be

very difficult to face that reality of what happened because it must be a very scary moment. I guess for yourself, when you realized you were defrauded, how did you come to grips with that? Was it almost like this kind of out-of-body, like, experience where it just like you couldn't come to grips that it actually this is what was going on i think as i say like i think i waited two weeks i think i knew kind of for two weeks it's almost like the waiting room you just have to open the door and pause through it and that is when you know that your entire life is over that is difficult so i think my body told me before i did anything you know overthinking it i got became nauseous i was always throwing up at work because i kind of knew now like as he had

turned on me and turned into this character that i never see before and it was awful so i can feel with a lot of the victims now you know when i'm doing the work i'm doing it's like because i've been there i've lived it i'm not only having just sympathy and empathy with you i'm a peer because i know the pain it is to actually having to realize that the one you loved never loved you yeah think about that i'm trying to put people into that mindset like we all need to trust in society and we can't go through life without loving or trusting someone and to get hit by that. That is, you question yourself, you question your judgment and you have to try to rebuild after that. You know, watching Love Con Revenge, I, the point where it was

kind of like, it's not a crime because like they're just friends, like helping me pay off my deaths or like, for anyone who's listening, if they're in that situation of like, you know, this is how they've made it seem? Like, is that a crime? How do I protect myself if they, if they just keep telling me like, oh, this is just, you're just helping me. You know, like, you're offering the money to me. I'm not taking it from you. Like, you're giving it to me. Yeah, like, this is what these criminals are doing. They're leaning into the trope of society, like, you gave your money away, you know. Yeah. But it's the intent terror that we always have to be mindful of. And everyone forgets that. Like, it's fraud if you lie about the reasoning for the money. You lie about

your business, that your business is never going to be set up, even though you have some land. And, yeah, we have some different stories here that is just mind-blowing how far people will go. And for me, that, yes, that is something that's very difficult in these cases. How do you prove intent? How do you prove that someone didn't mean to pay you back? So, yeah, that is why it's difficult. And that's why you have to gather a lot of evidence and you have to find a lot of victims to show the pattern. Do you have any stats or is there any information out there of just how?

prevalent this industry, I guess, is, if it is an industry of just like how many, is it specific like male con artists? I mean, are there women conning men in a similar fashion, the way that you focus on some of these con artists men? And do you have any stats of how prevalent this space is? Well, like, cyber crime as a whole is the third largest economy in the world. So you can imagine how lucrative it is. And we know that frosters are going from drug trafficking to do fraud instead. Because think about it. Digital here, no footprint, and kind of the years in prison as well, far below drug traffic. So just by that. And it's billions every single year, both in the US and UK, that is going into the hands of criminals just only on romance fraud. So, and in romance fraud,

what's very sad as well is that the number loss per. victim is much harder than in many others, you know, because it takes longer and they can drain more of you. And a lot of times romance and investment fraud is combined as well. So people lose a lot of money. So it's crazy to me how little we pay attention to it when there's so much money is going from, you know, U.S. citizens to criminals and to criminal activities that are fueling terrorism and drug trafficking. That is how I will be looking. at it when people are saying, you know, oh, I don't care about you, you know, like, I don't feel sorry for you. And then I'm like, well, we don't want these money to end up in criminal

sense. Obviously, we have a large audience of women. Yeah. And as scary as it is to say, there's probably people listening to this episode who probably are being defrauded and don't even realize it, whether it's being catfished or they're actually speaking to someone right now. what are signs to look out for and what are some things that might be going on in your relationship that should raise red flags that it may be in the early stages of a relationship would otherwise seem like kind of normal or just like you know there's a reason for it what are some things to look out for I feel like we have to go back into what is kind of a bad relationship or a bad starter relationship a lot of times where everything is moving very

quickly. They are wanting that closeness to you. They're very similar to you. They agree with a lot of what you're saying. They want the same things, like the same things, which is that is what's so sad about this crime. A lot of times that is just normal that things are moving quickly or that you have the same interest. But from these criminals, they're using that as manipulation and tactics. me as well, which is a very interesting one, is that they test you for compliance. So nothing to do with money. Of course, they will mention money quite early on and maybe they're an investment or want to know how much money you have. But this is like testing to see if you will do as they say. For example, will you change the time you meet up? Whether you change the kind of food

you eat. Would you just, you know, just change your opinion sometimes and just go after what they're saying and that is just to see what type of person you are will you go with what they say will you trust them on their word and it's so cunning i saw it several times in love con revenge because i was going through you know the evidence faced like messages and it was eerily how similar it was to both my own criminal but throughout the season kind of just to see where i could see oh god here he's just testing her and she's going along with it and it's so sad to see that in hindsight you want to scream at them and i think some of the things that i wish more people would do is just talk about the people you meet online the more other people around you see and know the

easier it is to get dragged out or dragged out of the relationship or situation you're in because they are craving and are betting on that you will rather to lean on, you know, your new boyfriend or girlfriend than your friends. I think what's one of the saddest parts about this whole space to your point you mentioned is that there are a lot of lonely people out there looking for connection, looking for companionship. And even if it's not like relationship scams, you know, for money purposes, maybe it's just someone being catfish, right? And the sad reality is the people being scam. scammed, they are, at least early on, like getting some kind of emotional benefit from this,

right? That companionship. They're excited to be talking to someone, even if they've never met them or FaceTime them of all the things. It's like, well, you never FaceTime them, but they, you know, these lonely people are making these connections. And I think it's very difficult for the victims to, like, wake up and realize what's going on. And there might be people listening right now who can think of a friend or a family member who they think is being scammed or, catfish but they're having a hard time breaking through to that person because again this person is finding some kind of companionship maybe for the first time in a while how what do you recommend for someone listening who might have a friend or a family member they think is as being

duped by either a catfish or you know one of these con artists what can they look for how how can you is someone who's been on the the receiving side of the scamming how can you get someone to maybe wake up and see what's going on because I think to your point, it's so difficult for these people to just be honest with themselves about what's going on because it's like, well, I don't want to lose this thing that I have, you know, this companionship. And it's just a very difficult and sad situation. I got, I was at a conference last week where there was a quote from a victim who said, but this is the first time someone has ever told me they loved me. Yeah. Yeah. And think about the power of that and that you have that. So I think the more empathy we have and I think empathy

is the word here if you're going to approach someone that you love because it's super difficult and it's not an easy thing. I talk to a lot of banking people as well who's trying to get people to realize they're being defrauded and they're always asking me what can we say? Like they're just refusing. We tell them straight out. And that is the issue that you're telling them straight out. No one wants to be told they're stupid. And by you saying that you're being defrauded and that your boyfriend or girlfriend is a froster, you're kind of telling people that they're stupid. And that is a very difficult reality to handle. And I understand we should just understand it immediately.

You know, come on someone objectively. What I would love for family to do, maybe, if they have a picture of the individual, if it's a catfish, to go on Google images or there are other kind of software you can use to check if it's a deep bake, just check if some AI has been used or if there is a celebrity, you know. And those cold, hard facts might open their eyes if you come with that. If you're saying directly like, I think you're being defrauded, you need to come with some more than that. And I think as well, coming just with empathy, I think when I was at the bottom, it was a banking employee that just asked me, how are you? And I was so beaten down, that little empathy there, instead of wondering about the money.

because of course it was a banking employee wondering, okay, what's going on here with the transfers and everything? But how was I as a human being? And just to take that calmness, it's so important because we will go on the defense. I was on the offense with one of the banks that was in mind where I even sent in a complaint email to them

because I said, how dare you stop the credit card, you know? So I've been on this side where I've been very angry. And it's very unfortunate because by that we will run straight into our frosters arms and then they will tell you that yeah no one understands us you know what you and i what you and i have is very special and love is a drug the reason why we say love is blind and especially but that is how some meet with empathy and don't go on the attack because it would feel like an attack if you say we think that your boyfriend or girlfriend is a frostor um yeah how have you changed since your experience on the tindler swindler god i i was on

breakfast TV in Norway back in 2019 and I went back recently to watch it and she's so me back then so vulnerable so distraught I had no idea what had happened to her at rock bottom it changed my entire life and I love that I can show kind of fraud victims now like the ones in love con revenge that is another there's another side to this you know their your life doesn't need to be over but I am I had to file up a bankruptcy I lost my flat that I owned my flat that I owned it has been had like huge consequences for me. So that's why I'm trying to always say, like the fight that a fraud victim have to endorse a lot of times afterwards, then the fraud in itself is when you have to try

to rebuild your life. But I'm quite privileged by which both the country that I'm from that a lot of people just trust, oh, you're from Norway, like love your country, trust you, want to hear your story. So I don't take that lightly that I have that voice and are able to help others. now. It's weird, but it's great. Being someone who was a victim of such a notorious con artist in the Tinler Swindler, filming Love Con Revenge, did any of these victim's stories shock you in a way outside of your own experience? Or did it feel like they're all kind of eerily similar? The tactics are really similar, like how they make you feel. I think that's huge.

human element is super similar because we humans. We are much more similar than we are different. But my God, I was shocked. I thought my foster was bad. I thought he went to lengths. He's nothing compared to some of these individuals that we have. I can't go into detail, I think, but I think a lot of people are using other humans as, you know, to seem legit. They're using careers. They're just using identity. Identity is so powerful. If you say that you're a doctor or a decorated military, we automatically, and they're living it. I have to say this is insane as well.

This is different than the online ones. They are living this. People are seeing them and they have that real past of these military doctor, businessmen, you know, baseball player. Not to give a two minute much away, but the guy who referenced his military background, who claimed to have a military service dog, who had the dog. And it's just like you would, you just, you would never think that that's a whole front, that that's fake. You know, it's just, as I always say, Simon didn't do, didn't do that.

He didn't, he didn't go through those lengths. There's other stuff he did. But kind of what you get out of that and it's like callousness. And as I said, these in-person ones are just so horrendous. And there are horrible, evil human beings. they can meet you face to face and give you kisses and be intimate with you. I mentioned that in the documentary which a lot of people are kind of losing side off, that people are having intimate relationships with these people.

You know, what about that? What do you feel when you didn't consent to that relationship? So there's so many layers to what you as a victim have to come through. But what most people are saying, what about the money? And I'm more like, but what about them as human beings? All of them are crying in this series because of what happened to them? Do you think with the Tinler Swindler and I imagine Love Con Revenge is going to be highly watched and discussed and talked about, are you optimistic that you're bringing a level of awareness not only to, you know, the audience and the alleged victims, but also law enforcement is almost like a roadmap to how to finally start holding these scammers accountable. Because like to your point, like you said in the dock and you've said it here today, it's it walks this really gray area of like, Like, this seems fucked up, but is it a crime?

You know, like you even mentioned in the dock, like, there aren't even exactly, like, specific to find laws in place to prosecute these criminals in a way. And do you feel like there will be a change in legislation or laws that will actually make it easier to go after some of these scammers? I really, really hope so. The things that there are laws in place, they're just not widely known by. both the police. They're very difficult to, you know, prosecute. There's several layers to this and levels in the US. I was taught that. That is many reasons why they're not going after them. So the laws are there. Like we have one where we have a DA from California coming in, like theft under deception. So there is. But it's kind of the time consuming part and getting a jury to actually

find them guilty for a DA to do that, that takes a lot of false to do if they're not really sure if they will get a conviction because people have these preconceived notions about like fraud, you know, who gave away your money kind of. So that I think is really difficult. What I am trying to hopefully get and change in legislation is that they have to face consequences for what they did to us as human beings. This is so much more than the money lost. This is kind of mental abuse that a lot of them have suffered, and especially the one with the family. And that is where I'm so sad that they're going to get two, three years in jail, how much other are they going to serve, and then they learn from this.

That is the worst part. They will only get better. They will, you know, then jump states, you know, to continue. Oh, I just get very angry because that is like the one thing I'm hoping that we can create those discussions. Yes, as you said, Nick, about the law enforcement. how they meet the victims, how they talk to them. But it's more one, they have to file a police report on the lawn outside the police house.

And it's just so jarring to be as a fraud victim, how a lot of fraud victims are being treated when they're coming in, trying to report a very traumatic experience. This is not just a car being stolen, if you know what I mean. Yeah. In February of this year, Simon launched his own crypto coin and released his biography book. How does it feel to have him, like, still trying to make money off of this? He did not release a book.

He did not release a book. That is another scam and fraud. And I think that has been always so funny to me. And I don't meet it like that. Everyone was, like, going after us, you know, like, how can you trust them? You know, how can you trust them? And every time he says something, he was going to be the new bachelor, you know. Oh, my God.

Like, all of this stuff, dating show and dating up and everything. And I'm sitting there. He's a liar. and he's a proven liar. Why are we trusting him? But yeah, he managed to find some other criminals over in Dubai and have this meme coin and went on several podcasts there with defamatory commentary about me and the other girls, which is highly critical of, I think, the podcasters that are sitting there saying like, yeah, I do believe you. They made a hit piece on you. And I'm like, who? Who? Why are you believing him. And then I have been approached by new victims of him as well, which is really,

really sad. And that is when everyone's saying to me, you know, move on with your life and forget about it, is very highly difficult. I'm not the one to turn my back on people. And he's going after more and more vulnerable people. So that it's not being listened to, that it's not getting a Netflix documentary. And he knows this now. He's learned. And yes, for me as well, I have to say, it's quite funny to see him being angry and upset with the success. He's heard, of course, now about Love Con Revenge, and he's saying that I can't catch any scammers and everything.

So I'm like, yeah, continue, you know. It's like we are kind of, I don't like to battle with him online, but it's kind of just an interesting aspect to this that he's still out there. How did you locate some of these victims? to be able to try to go after their perpetrators? Well, some of them wrote to me. Actually, like, after the Tinder swindler, one of them won't end in the headline.

There's a Tinder swindler in the US. So a lot of them have been very amazingly well at, you know, investigating their own story and wanting to do the same as I did. You know, there's power and justice in getting the faces of these individuals out there because it will stop them. Even though Simon is still out there,

a very easy Google search will show him who he really is. I didn't have that back in 2018. And I have wanted to be able to do that for others. So there is, and I just hope that we can, you know, help a lot of other victims. I have to say as well that we do have a male story in the series because that is a very important factor of the show that is not only. I think I know, Nick, you asked that question earlier about how. How many? Are there more men than women? This is not a gendered crime at all. It's 50-50 split between men and women. There's a lot of men hurting in this. In silence, they would rather go to

the gray with this. And I think it's so, so sad to see that there's so many, there are many stories that are not being told because of that. Thank you for your time. Thank you for having me. This is crazy. I mean, it's just so much to digest. Where can people find you? Obviously, Love, Common Revenge is out tomorrow. But where can people, you know, find all the other things that you're doing and just, you know, plug away? Oh, God. Yeah. I actually am an author now as well. I came, me and Pranilla from the Tinder Swindler, we came out of a book full swindled never after. So I would, that is more of a continuation of the story, more expert commentary on the problem that we're facing.

I'm on Instagram, Cecilia underscore my website, Cecilifielhoa.com. So there's many ways and reach out. And I'm a founder of my nonprofit, Lovesed. It's on Loveset.org. You can come and get both step-by-step help and support if you are a victim of romance fraud or if you are friends and family, we're there to support you if you need. Well, Cecilia, I really appreciate it. Thanks for sharing your story.

Again, sorry that you were victimized, but it is very encouraging to see the work that you're doing, knowing that you are helping a lot of people just get through this. Because, yeah, like you said, I mean, it's just so sad to see, one, you know, the crime being committed, but just the healing process that it takes for these people to overcome not only the financial, but the emotional loss that they experience. It's really quite devastating. Thank you for having me. Thank you again. Thank you. That was wild. Yeah. I feel like these scammers should be on a list or something. Like, it's just like if you're going to serve minimal time for defrauding people and I don't know what, you know.

But I'm just like, I just feel like there should be like a list or some sort of registry that like if you're out free in the world, I should be able to look you up and see that like you have done this to other people. I'm like, I don't know why that's so hard. It is crazy that this Simon, the tender swindler is like signed to a like agency. In agency, yeah. And it's like he's just out there like on podcasts, writing a book, like wanting to be an actor. It's like this is just, it is crazy that they, yeah, like they're allowed to have careers. Well, time to get to Katie Janella. As the season's changed, it's the perfect time to learn something new, whether you're getting back into a routine after summer or looking for a new challenge before the year ends.

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The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. When I got your DM, I was like, oh, fuck. I was like, oh, shit, I said no. And you were like, why did you say no? I'm like, because you scared the shit out of me with your questions. That's why. What's wrong with my question? They're very snarky sometimes.

Are you a fan? Do you listen? I just gave myself away. No, some of the guests that you have on, I do listen. Yeah, you're good. You're a good interviewer. Oh, thank you. I hope they're not hard.

I hope they're just. Well, because you're not on the rest. seeming end. Well, if you have nothing to hide, because they're not hard. Well, welcome, Katie. Thanks for having me. We're very excited to have you.

We are excited. Thank you for coming. Katie, first is that you may have not heard and I'll keep that part in. First declined the invitation. I did. Come on the file files. I did.

And then I begged. You did. Well, you sort of. Not really. No, I DM. He groveled. I was like, Katie. You were like, why did you decline?

And I literally said, because you scare the shit out of me. And then I said, I promise you a great time. Well, let's see. And I'll keep my word. She said, I'm waiting for the great time to begin. When does that start? You haven't had fun yet? Well, it's really nice to meet you. You have a room full of fans here. I told Katie, I'm team no one. He did, which I thought was kind of rude. I commit team Katie. Thank you. Well, I can't, you know, a different franchise. I won't say who. It's like, I want so. I'd love to get so and so on. And then you're here like, well, they're not going to come up because you had so and so on. And then. It's just like, I, you know, I'm just trying to play fair. That sounds childish. It does.

So, yeah. Thank you for coming. I really appreciate it. But yeah, I don't want to take sides. I just want to hear everyone's, we're just fans of all of you, you know. Okay. Very difficult. Where do you want to start?

Can I start with Kiki? Okay. You want to get right into it. Do you want to start with like how you got on the show? I would say that I don't really want to discuss Kiki. I think there's been enough discussion. I think that it's giving her more time the time that she asked for. Okay.

So you didn't talk to her? I did. We did have lunch. We first met in L.A. I was at a Bravo Diamonds and Roses or something party. And she was there and I went up and I said, oh my gosh, I've been following you for a long time. I love your true crime and your pop culture. I think you're amazing.

She then followed me on social media and I'm DM'd her like honored. this is so cool, right? Being that my husband and I have been in media, especially my husband over 20 years, it's not weird to know a quote unquote journalist, someone in the media. So I was like, oh, this is cool. Like, she seemed like a cool girl, and I loved supporting her. And then she messaged me that she and a friend were coming down to Orange County for lunch and asked me and Jen to lunch. Jen was somewhere. I was out doing errands and I said, sure, I can pop by for a little bit. And we had lunch. Do you regret having that lunch with Kiki? I do. I do. I do regret having lunch with Kiki. I think I idolized her a little bit. I loved supporting a woman in this social media, pop culture, Bravo, reality TV space and also a woman of color. And I loved that. And I think that when we sat down and she said, everything is off the record, everything is off the record. She didn't hold true to that. And I did not tell her the thing that you're going to ask me if I told her. But we discussed a lot of things that much, mostly how I felt.

about being a housewife in my first season. So you think she's lying? I think that we have different interpretations of the truth. I was about to say, do you feel like it's more of like a miscommunication where it's like you, and correct me from wrong, said she went to the hospital and Kiki took that as like, well, you only go to the hospital if like something's wrong. So like I did not bring up Gretchen. Oh.

So there was no reason for me to bring up Gretchen. This was early fall that we had that lunch. and Gretchen didn't even let Jen or I know, well, I can't speak for Jen, but Gretchen didn't let me know she was even coming back until like the middle to end of December. So I'm not sure why I would have even brought Gretchen's name up. Gretchen was a very new friend. We had had a triple date, which I'm sure you guys have heard about now. Maastroes.

Yes. Matt's here, everyone. Matt is here. He's going to nod. He has tape over his mouth current. I know. And just as good looking in person. He is.

Better. Yeah, honestly. Better. Very helpful. And that was the first dinner I'd ever had with Gretchen and Slate. So they were very new friends. So I'm not sure why I would have even brought Gretchen up. We were literally discussing me. So. And I guess it just, I mean, did you think that it would ever turn into what it has turned into? I know. I was saying earlier that Jen and I talked on the phone at the beginning of the season before we started filming. We were like, we think this is going to happen and this is going to. happen. And this story, none of that happened. It was so far from what we thought would be. What were your expectations of being a housewife versus what the reality has been for you when you first, you know, sign the dotted line, so to speak? I honestly thought I was going to become friends with them. Not necessarily all of them, but, you know, a good amount of them. And we would fight about petty things about like, I saw your dress that name and Marcus. And then we would get over it Because that's what I have watched. It has become a little bit more dark, I think. And I also was okay with talking about the custody of my kids and my ex-husband and that tumultuous divorce, meeting Matt and all of those things. Because I think a lot of women do go through that. I just didn't foresee it being used as a weapon against me. It was like, you're a bad person because of X, Y, and Z. So I thought it was going to be like, let's talk about this. Let's bring light to it. Also being the first Asian American on Orange County, also being the first Korean adoptee. I think. those are pretty cool things to share because so many people have commonalities with that.

So much in Bravo World, especially recently, it was discussed in the Valley with Janet. It's been mentioned on your show with you. Being a fan of the franchise, which, I mean, many of us are before we go on these shows. And I think now that these shows have been on, like Orange County, I mean, how long has it been on? 19 seasons. 19 seasons, 20 years. To find someone who's not a fan is almost. Or who's never heard of the Housewives

Weirder to begin with. So I guess what is your opinion on it? Because I can see both sides but do you feel like being someone who watched the show or was some kind of fan do you think that's been weaponized

against you by your peers in a way that feels unfair? That's a good question. I watched Orange County in the very beginning, very, very beginning. And then it got a little dark and I stopped watching. And then I was in talks with casting and I met Gina and I thought, you know, I should probably watch the last season. So it was on in the background, but I sat down to watch the reunion. I wanted to see the resolution of things. I've been a fan of New Jersey in the past, Beverly Hills, right? But I wasn't a fan necessarily of this franchise. But tell me a woman ages 20 to 60 that hasn't heard of Housewives or a Bravo or any type of reality TV like Housewives. If you have a phone and

and you have social media, it's on there. It's very hard to avoid. So even though I knew about Orange County, I wasn't necessarily watching every season, watching every episode. I wasn't necessarily a fan. I do think it can ruin it. I have heard about a lady on the valley

that is called a fan and that's been to her detriment. I haven't watched it, so I can't comment on that, but. And I get, you know, and even, let's say you were, I guess my question is, would you be afraid to acknowledge

that you were a fan for fear that it would be used against you? And do you feel like, you know, some of the OGs, Heather and Tamara, do you think they, yeah, like use that against you where, like, even if you were, it would be unsafe to acknowledge that, even though it shouldn't be necessarily something that's a crime? I think they would have used that against me. Yes. I think that they think, oh, you're a fan. You wanted to be famous. You wanted to get on TV. I don't know. I think that they do use that against women for sure. recently you and Tamara have had some back and forth on social media is there a path forward for you and Tamara yes actually she reached out probably towards the end of filming the season and we kind of had some talks and she's been in my corner I'm very appreciative and quick little thing speaking of all this I hear your friends with Shannon is that okay no no I'm just asking I heard you guys are buddies yeah we had her on the show I like to think I'm friends with She's friends with the media

That's so weird Oh There you go Weird Good Katie That's weird Did you guys have lunch ever? No I'm not

I've only met Shannon In this room And I like to think that we're friends Don't say that She said I do not claim you No no no no we're not friends Well I I will say

Interesting enough We've had Gina on We have had Gina on Heather Camera I saw Tamara's interview was great. I don't know if Heather thinks we're friends. Yeah, I don't know if she'd claim us. Fancy fan. Well, because, I mean, truly, I mean, I don't know what people's

perception is of us or the show. If, for example, obviously, whatever you say here on, in the mic, we're going to put it out there. Yeah, I figure. Unless you were to tell us not, I mean, we always say, we're not here, we're entertainers. We're not, we're not, we're not journalists. I don't know. Yeah, we're definitely not. The quote unquote journal. I don't see my, we don't spread rumors. If you were to tell us something offline, it's not for public consumption. Like, we don't do that. We don't even spread on, like, the blogger community I'm uncomfortable with. It seems like it's a part of the Bravo Spear.

And we talked about this last week when talking about this whole, you know, what makes a blogger? What doesn't make a blogger? For us, like the anonymous pages, I find to be very problematic because there's just no accountability. For all we know, they could be housewives, you know, pretending to be other people. And again, rumors can be very distrable. even if there's rumors that are like half true and half not and things like that. I think it's okay to have relationships in the media. Yes.

You know, we've even had fun, I guess, at your expense when we're talking about, you know, you're going to blogger's weddings and things like that. Did you, what was your expectation as someone who may have had some relationships with people in the brava world who consider themselves bloggers or were considered bloggers or somehow even adjacently connected to the community? You seem to have some friendships in this space. Then you became a housewife. Were you surprised by what seemed to be these unwritten rules by some of your peers about

like who you could and couldn't be friends with? Yes, because half of my cast are quote unquote bloggers. So that means content creators, podcasters. Is that why you consider a blogger? I don't use the word blogger. I feel like blogger is like MySpace. You know, that's what they coined it as. but I haven't used the word bloggers since literally my space.

Here's my recipes. Right. Here's my. Right. I mean, I had a blog ages ago about my children that I would like let my parents read and my ex-in-laws read and stuff like that. But anyways, I also find it weird because my husband has been in media for over 20 years. I've been in media.

So being friends with quote unquote bloggers is not weird for us. You know, we eloped with some people, some friends. And three of those people are quote unquote bloggers. They're journalists. and actual ones. You know, I guess so the guy that is helping me write my book right now would be considered a journalist, a blogger. So it's not weird for me to have these relationships.

I mean, Gina had a speed dial blogger, a guy that, to confirm, yeah. To confirm, she had his number really quickly to call. Yeah, and I don't have one of the people they're talking about the number. Yeah, it's not weird for me. Going back, should I have had those relationships? Maybe not. But the fact that I'm friendly with people. people in media is not weird to me in the space that my husband and I exist in.

Who do you think in your cast as being the biggest hypocrite when it comes to this conversation about relationships with people in the media bloggers? Well, I mean, it would be a toss up between Gina and Gretchen because when they had that sit down with Kiki, Gretchen said, oh, it's great to meet you. And Kiki was like, well, actually, we've met. We've talked on the phone, you know? Yeah. And it's Katie. Why are you speed-diling him? And then I see pictures of Kiki and Gina show up on social media. And, you know, she was very quick to reach out to the Kiki and this other person that's involved. That's a journalist.

So it's kind of a lot of hypocrisy, actually. Has your relationship with any of these people in media slash bloggers changed? And because I'm asking, because again, like I just said, you know, you don't know me or the show that, well, we have certain, like, I guess rules that we try to abide by. Again, we don't spread rumors or gossip. If we get done recording and you tell me something, I'm not. not going to repeat it. We've heard some, we don't even say off the record twice. We don't even say often. It's just like, don't, you know. But that being said, now that you're a housewife, I imagine some of the people you were friends with who maybe don't abide by certain rules that

we have for ourselves, where they will spread rumors. They maybe have anonymous blogger accounts. Have you changed your relationship with any of these people in the media since becoming a housewife, given like how they operate and move in their world that maybe didn't, you know, align with you. Yes. I will say two of the people that I became friendly with were friends of friends. So they happen to do this. So that didn't feel as weird to me. But I have taken kind of like a step back. I don't trust anybody. I do feel used. But I also made some rookie mistakes that I shouldn't have made concerning the quote unquote bloggers. You know, I am more careful. Speaking of friendship, so like you went into the season seemingly closest to Jen.

Has it been hard watching her not take accountability for what she knew about the dinner with Gretchen and where do you guys stand today? It is really hurtful because the reason you saw me go, Jen, like, come on is because she was there and she could have backed me up. Yeah. And given me some accountability with these ladies. And that hurt. I mean, I left that Persian New Year party gutted. I mean, I was seriously depressed for days. I laid in bed and cried.

And then thereafter, weeks after, any time anyone would mention her name, I would just burst down tears. And so it hurts because I loved her. I invested so much time in her. Our kids became friends. We hung out with our significant others together. She came to my house all the time. So it didn't feel great. No. And as of now, we do not, we do not speak. She used what's going on with you to kind of get in with them because she was on the outs with everybody last season. I don't know if it's that, but I feel like she saw me going down and she didn't want to go down with her. I was like, you're right. Hold the line. Why did Slade want you to hold the line? And like, what does that mean? I wish I knew really what the real story was with that. All I know is when we were New Orleans and all of that came out. I was getting ready for dinner. I had no idea it came out. I get a call for my husband. Hey, Slade called me. He sent me a 911 text. He said that you might have sealed your fate. He's on the other line with somebody in production. Alex Vaskin. I can't. Anyways. And. And. And so I didn't say that. You did.

We had him on the show as well. Okay. Yep. He's great. Awesome friends. And, you know, you have to hold the line for Gretchen. Slade said, you, you know, back her up. Say she never said it because we've already dealt with this with Bravo, he said.

And Katie could get in a lot of trouble. So me being very new to my second season was like, I don't want to get any trouble. You know, this scares me. So I'm going to do that. You know, I'm going to back up my friend. Because if we're hearing from a friend that I have to do this, that's what I'm going to do. And that's what I did. And now looking back, why didn't I just say, actually, you know, you did say that. I should have. But in the moment, I was literally protecting someone

I thought was my friend. I mean, is it frustrating watching this back and seeing Gretchen lie in real time about the hospital visit? I mean, we watch her in the car with Tamara. We watch her in her ITM saying she didn't. We watch her saying she's never taken a polygraph test. And then we see the footage of her from the same guy from years ago taking up the polygraph test. So I mean, how does it feel to watch all of these just like her lying lying and lying. I giggle a little bit because she said it actually twice to Tamara. Yeah. That she went to the hospital. And then I heard her an interview say, I misspoke. It's not true. I misspoke. That's not something you really misspeak about. You know, you say like, oh, I want to get the dark brown or the light brown. That's a that's miss

speaking. Saying that you go to the hospital is not miss speaking. I don't think. So I do kind of giggle a little bit. Especially when it started with, I was so sick. I had to go to the hospital. Like, it was like, were you frustrated that Tamara knowing that she knew Gretchen had told her she went to the hospital and then with the polygraph results, her saying she didn't, were you frustrated that Tamara didn't stick up for you in that moment? And say, like, wait a minute, you just told me something different. I mean, if it was right now, I'd be frustrated because we have a better relationship. But at that moment, she didn't trust me. Gotcha. You know, but Shannon, you could see Shannon look at her like, Wait a second. You know, Shannon clocked it right away, I think. I don't think she said anything because she kind of liked the pile on me. But they both kind of saw it. You know, now we've all seen it. Yeah. What's your take on the bloggers calling out Emily and Gina for dominating the group? Give me a for instance on all you're talking about. I mean, that's my question in general because, I mean, I'm team you. But like, as someone who like, I mean, I consume the blogs. And like I just my take too as well as like I love Gina and Emily.

but like it just after that night after the lie detector it seemed like they left you out to dry it was almost a setup in my opinion it was i think the blogs in my opinion are calling them out for it they are like noticing that it was kind of like a setup and that it was they just piled on you it definitely felt like a pile in and i thought it was a setup i went home that it was rigged yes and i went home googled this guy he came up picture came up my 21 year old daughter was like oh i've seen him i saw him on jake paul i'm like that's interesting There's allegations, allegedly, that there's a pay-for-play situation. You can look at a website that might belong to him, allegedly, and see that.

There's a truth, and there's, like, how much do you want the truth to talk about? There's A, B, and C. Yes, and I thought it was a setup in my mind. All right. And then the episode came out, and I see Gina saying, don't worry, we have a plan. And then telling Tamara, don't worry, we got her. Before- You heard overheard this? No, I watched it when I watched it.

And I was like, I was right. Yep. You know, it all felt, even when I walked in the door, the air felt thick. It felt weird. And that's why you see me get really anxious. Now, you look nervous. Oh, my God. Because we had just come back from New Orleans and I know they all hated me.

I had no friends in that room. And even Jen, I saw her not stick up for me in New Orleans. So I was like, this feels horrible. So I started to get really sick in the restroom. And then she announced, we're going to do a polygraph. I was like, oh, great. Okay, let's do it. We're right about Heather.

I definitely think Heather called the polygraph. Well, I know I was right. I didn't need a polygraph to tell me that. Okay? My source is reputable. Was it frustrating for you, regardless of whether the polygraph was real or not, that despite, you know, Heather proven to be a liar in this, in this environment? they just brushed right past that. They brushed right past everybody's.

They brushed past Tamara's question about autism being on the spectrum. We had like a quick second about that and then it brushed past it. We brushed past Jen saying she was uneasy about marrying Ryan. And then me, it was like, get out. You need to go. And I was kind of like, okay, I kind of want to go. Yeah, they did brush past some big confessions. Yep.

But did you notice only three people that passed with flying colors? Emily. Gina and Gretchen. Going to the comments that Gina made about the Asian designers. Yes. Did it raise red flags with you or concern you that her reaction to Kiki Monique telling her that you had brought this up was more angry that you would accuse her of being racist on a national platform versus, oh no, I made my friend feel a certain way? I felt like she got caught in the moment with her pants down a little bit. And I just want to clarify that when I was cast, when they offered me the spot, that was my first thought is because of 2020.

And a lot of things that have happened in the Asian realm, I wanted to highlight Asian brands, Asian people, that kind of thing, right? I didn't say I was going to wear Asian brands exclusively. Like, does she want my bra and underwear to be made in Korea? I don't know. But, like, I just wanted to highlight some really cool brands that maybe people haven't heard of. It's definitely a weird thing for her to stick her business. Right. So somebody telling me how Asian I need to be feels weird because I am learning my own Asian culture on my own.

I am an adoptee from Korea. My daughter is helping me with that. I have a really dear friend who's also adopted from Korea. And we share stories. I'm not going to be told how Asian I need to be. That's for me only. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense that it's something that you would like to, at times prioritize and consider and go out of your way to make an attempt it doesn't mean you have to

feel comfortable with that pace yeah okay or in you're allowed to change in georgia in an all white community if i want to take a slower pace learning that that's my choice but i guess like yeah have has she ever apologized for making you feel that way no i have gotten zero apologies for anything well no no no that's a lie i won't lie i have gotten one apology and it was a chat gpte message because my daughter put it in like this AI detector, and it was AI. Who seat you that? Gretchen, because I was like, wow, this is really well written. And it says warm regards.

And I was like, wow. I know who it's from. I know who it's from your number, girlfriend. You're like in it's summer and it's hot. Warm regards. I was like, that's interesting. It's the morning I'm doing press in New York. So it was warm regards.

Oh, that was nice. And what was the chat, GPD? apologizing to you for it was for the inappropriate video that her and jen put out oh right so six days later she sent me a warm regards message so after she got enough backlash to make her feel like she needed to yes cover her tracks okay but gina has never once no no and jen didn't apologize to you for that no but i really i will say jen posted it but it was gretchen in the video that i felt was being inappropriate yet. Okay. Now, from the end of this last episode, when you're leaving, are you essentially being put on pause at this moment? I think you'll have to wait and see what happens.

Wait and see. Okay. But to that end, why weren't you invited? I know you mentioned in recent interviews that you suggested that production was protecting you, which was really just frustrating as a fan to hear because it's like, I don't care if they're getting along or not getting along. It's just like, just you guys made this the drama.

So why are we not allowing? Are you taking heart of it? Well, right. I'm less interested in watching. We are a show of that, I will say, to your point. And also, I asked to show up. I asked production, can I just show up? Can I just show up?

Tell me where they're staying. I'll just show up. And they said, no, it's probably not a good idea. So I didn't know. They didn't give you a why? No. What do you think is the reason? You think the women got together and said, she can't come?

Do you think they tried to hold a hard line with production and demand? I don't think that they have that kind of power. I do think that production did see it was just a pile on and a constant me story. And so they were like, you know what, Kitty, it's probably not a good idea for you to be there. It's just going to be about you. So why do you think all these women who, without you, aren't the closest group? You know, there's a lot of conflict within these women. Why do you think they have banned together to target you in the way that they have?

If I were to guess, it's because last year I maybe, I embarrassed them a little bit. with things that they may have lied about or skewed. And so this was their way of getting back at me. Because the nanny reaching out to me, my daughter going on that podcast to tell her side of the story that she didn't get to tell on a reunion stage, embarrassed Emily. You know, me calling out Heather about paparazzi, embarrassed her.

So I think that this was the way to, like, get at me. What regrets, if any, do you have from season one? What would you have done differently if you could? You know, at the end of season one, I was regretful of a few things. But now I'm not. Just like this season, I wish I would stick up for myself more, you know, being a little bit more vocal. But that this is who I am. I am very much in person the same as I am filming. I'm very much the same person. So although I'm like, damn it, I should have said this. I should have, you know, that's who I am. I do need to get more confident in standing up for myself. But in those moments, I was very authentic and very real. So although I regret not being a little more vocal, I can't. I don't really regret anything from the first season. Was it shocking to hear Gina and watch what happens live say that Heather was the one who did all the research on your past? Not really.

No. I mean, the way that they came at me, Emily and Heather, I mean, you can put two and two together. You knew it was one of them. And do you think that the women are banding together to essentially get you to leave the show? That's what it feels like. Will you not be that, please? I'll be very, I'll be very angry. If you can come off as my friend.

To that point, are you considering, regardless of what these women want or what Bravo wants, are you considering not coming back because who wants to show up to work, not having friends? I have not considered that. Okay, period. We love that. She said I'm a bad bitch, I don't even. I think I deserve a fair chance. I think I deserve for people to get to know me.

I appreciate you sitting down with me because you are getting to know me a little bit more. This is more than I was afforded in two seasons. I think Nick even said when we talked about all of this, you know, when it was all kind of out in the headlines and whatnot, just that like if this is how, if you were to this be your last season, it's like how would anyone want to join this show if this is how they're treated? If they're chewed up and then spit out and then they're just like, okay, on to the next one. Who else can? It's like what, what show? Who wants to be on this? I never thought about it like that way. Wow. Do you think Bravo has a rookie hazing problem? I don't think that's a Bravo issue. I think that's a woman issue. Mm-hmm. Okay. Women do we hate women.

I know. And I, you know, I've said this, like, why couldn't me surviving my first marriage be something we talk about and uplift each other about? Why does it have to be something that is going to follow me with these people, that I'm a bad mother? You know, I don't think of it that way. And I wouldn't think of it, even if I hadn't gone through it, if you told me that. Right. I wouldn't be like, oh, you must be a horrible person. But I think that they grasp onto anything to make me look that way. You obviously have been made to seem like a liar on this show from the rest of your peers. And I appreciate you sharing your side of the story.

Have you ever told a lie? Of course I have. Haven't you? Sure. But specifically on this show. And I only ask because I empathize because, like, a lot of your peers are liars on this show, have been caught in lies. And I could try to put myself in your shoes and be like, well, I mean, if they're fucking lying, why? Why do I owe you the truth?

I lied when I protected Gretchen. Remind me what the lie was? I lied when I said, Gretchen, you've never said that before. I don't know what they're talking about. That was a lie. Anything else? Any other burning questions? Okay.

I'm just like, I also feel like, do you kind of feel like you're also being used as like a sacrificial lamb? Because I feel like there's a lot of storylines that are like a lot of characters on your show that don't really have a storyline outside of you? I think yes I think it's also easy to pick on you so the heats off of me right right so so yes and I am not good at that what is your opinion on recording people like the conflict between you and Shannon I think she's recorded other people in the past twice three times actually I mean I'm not Shannon I love you oh yeah your friend don't talk about your friend every time I have someone on that Shannon doesn't you're going to get a call not mad I'm just listening

to everything. You're going to get a call. Janet, I love you. You can't say that after the fact. Yeah, there's no offense, but. No offense. No team. But yeah, I mean, like, what are the rules from what you understand them to be and what do you think they should be? Based on California law, if you were to come into a public space, you don't expect privacy with your phone on speaker in a public space.

When there's 20 plus people in the room, social media cameras, executives, you kind of figure. somebody's going to hear your conversation. Should I have shared that I recorded Shannon with Jen and Alexis? No, I should not have. I should have only sent it to Matt for Matt to hear the lore and have been done with it. And I regret that. But I did. And that's it.

Do you think it's a path forward for you and Shannon? I hope so because we had a lot of fun. Shannon is a really good time. But I don't know. She is really holding on to this. Was that another frustrating moment with Jen when she said she had never seen the video, heard the video, knew nothing about the video. She's never heard the audio recording or seen it, but it was frustrating for her to not back me up in that moment. Yeah. Reunion. What do you, you haven't

recorded? Is it filmed? No, next month. What hill will you die on? And are there any relationships over others that you hope to mend at the reunion? I will die on the hill that I didn't tell Kiki. and I don't know the answer to your second part of that question. I'm waiting to see how it goes. I think I'm owed some apologies. Are you aware of anything that happened on this cash trip that you did not go on?

Yes, you are. Do you feel like any of the women regretted not having you there because when one target leaves, another usually pops up and while all the attention was going to you, and they're still going to make a TV show. I did say to Jen, in the scene that will air tomorrow night when we're meeting for coffee,

I did say, you know, if I'm gone, you're next. Because that's how it works. Are you good at seeing the future? I feel like I am. Maybe I'm clairvoyant. What was the first part of the question you asked me? It was layered. He does that.

I do that. I can't remember. Hill you'll die on. No, I answered that. I forget. Well, I guess it's more like, yeah, who's going to be the most. regretful that you weren't on that trip? Oh, that's right. Tamara has told me that one of the biggest mistakes is that I wasn't filming for that trip. That she regret? What wishes you were? I don't. I'm

just going to say that it was I wish I could have gone on that trip, but maybe it was best I didn't. Are you feeling more confident or more scared going into the reunion? Both. The reunion is not something that you go into, you're like, yeah, I can I cuss? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I fucking got this. You know, that's not something you go into doing. You can feel a little confident, but also, you never know. Like last year, I felt a little confident, and then they hit me with a semi about my custody. So you, you know, you're not really excited to do this. It is shocking that they feel like they have any legs to stand on after they did that to you at that reunion. I feel like me telling the nanny, I can't talk to you, but my daughter went on this podcast and you weaponizing my custody is not the same thing.

Yeah. Did Heather repelagination ever really? She did in the moment because she saw it got bad. She said, I'm so sorry you went through that. I can't imagine off camera, though. And I was like, okay, thank you. And I was just trying not to cry. And the amazing person that does my hair who's here, who was also there at that moment, was like glaring like, what are you doing here right now?

Yeah, he was like, get away from her. Any final thoughts before we send you on your way? No, thanks for having me. You're not that bad. Not that bad. And I appreciate that, Nick. it was so great to obviously we only see so much on this show so it was really great to sit next to you and hear more from your actual voice of what's been going on and you honestly you seem like a great mother you seem like a great wife you are a great housewife so I really hope that you continue I will be very upset if you're not back next season tell your friend tell your friend noted Katie thank you very much for coming I hope you come back we may or may not be friends

So maybe I will. Well, regardless of what happens with you next season, we would, you know, if you're not brought back, we'll have you back. Okay, thank you. I appreciate that. I promise you that. Thank you guys for listening. Where can where can people follow you? Katie.jonella. Okay.

Go ahead and follow Katie. Subscribe. Tell your friends about our show. If you haven't listened to the Dale and Kat episode from going deeper yesterday, be sure to check that out. Lots of great episodes to listen to if you haven't listened to all of them. We appreciate all of you. We'll see you back on Monday. day. Don't forget to send your ask Nick questions, by the way, in case you have some relationship

trauma in your life or problems that you want resolved. We're always here for you. Ask Nick at the vowel files.com, I think is the email address. Okay, check it out. All right, bye. We'll see you on Monday.