The Viall Files - Ep1088 - Going Deeper with Keenyah Hill

Episode Date: March 4, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper Edition!  Unless you live under a rock, you've probably seen or heard about Netflix's Reality Check: Inside America's Next Top Model. There's been countless interviews with former hosts, but have you heard from the models themselves? This week, we welcome Keenyah Hill to talk about her experience on ANTM, her feelings about the documentary, Tyra Banks, reality TV, and the incredible career she's had since. You won't want to miss it!  "Tyra teased there might be another season, would you be interested?" The Viall Files is going LIVE with the new cast of Temptation Island on May 6th! Tickets are on sale NOW! For more information, please visit netflixisajokefest.com.  Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content?  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE?  Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff now!  Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774298881  Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NWA8LBk15l2u5tNQqDcOO?si=3b868996930347e8  Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod Listen To Disrespectfully with Katie Maloney and Dayna Kathan now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0J6DW1KeDX6SpoVEuQpl7z?si=c35995a56b8d4038 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: Grammarly - In a world of generic AI, don't sound like everyone else. With Grammarly, you never will. Download Grammarly for free at https://grammarly.com  BiOptimizers - Go to https://bioptimizers.com/viallfiles and use our exclusive code VIALL15 to get 15% off any order. Make 2026 the year you finally start sleeping great again. To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @keenyah.hill @justinkaphillips @leahgsilberstein @the_mare_bare @izeweaver

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you do is go to Val Files Plus, and you will be lucky you did. Kinga, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. We're very excited to have you. We're very excited. Very excited to have this conversation and just to be with you. I always, I'm just kind of curious, obviously, the America's Next Top Model documentary on Netflix dropped a couple weeks ago.

Everyone's been talking about it. Everyone's been watching it. There's been so many opinions and feelings and people that are doing press. But I imagine for you and a lot of the other models who have been part of the show, that experience might have been a little different than, say, the average viewer who was just watching it as a fan. And I'm just curious, what was that like watching it back? And how did you go about watching it? Watching the documentary itself. I had a little watch party.

I had some friends over. I had a support system. Yeah, a little support system. My mom came with me. You know, it's really interesting. Just TV land in general, you know, I understand that documentaries all have their sense of storytelling. And you go and you answer a bunch of questions. And I really wanted to have a really balanced approach because I appreciated being on the show.

But it's really nerve-wracking, not knowing exactly what the angle is going to be. Was there almost a little bit of like even filming the documentary itself, almost? a way triggering almost brought you back to when you were filming the actual TV show, because having that kind of uncertainty of like, I'm doing this, but I don't know how it's going to come across. Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting, especially because the show was so long ago, but they were asking a lot of the same questions that I've kind of been answering for the last 20 years.

So it's not like it was tough, but definitely watching clips back because I haven't watched the show. I was 19. I was a child. And I've just grown so much since then. So it's just like kind of cringe to watch, really. And so seeing those clips come back up, it's definitely like a little triggering and stuff. But I had a blast on the show. I just have to say, like I had a really good time on the show. I'm really proud to have been on America's Next Top Model. And so it's not like this, this sad, like, scar of my life. It's really led to what I'm doing now. It's so interesting. I mean, I grew up watching the show. It, like, is what made me want to be a model. And it, like, it's so weird watching it back today. Because you're just like, I remember this stuff happening. But, like, I was just, you know, it all just looked so fun. They were on, you know, writing elephants and doing all these crazy things. And it was like, this is so cool. And so it was now watching it back with, like, an adult perspective. You're like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have been watching. watching that at such a young impressionable age. Like now I do realize maybe some things were wrong and things shouldn't have been said. Did you watch your season back before you did the documentary? I did not watch the season back only because I lived it.

Yeah. And I kind of already had a sense of the things that happened on the show. But, you know, something that is like really important for me to say is that I am so grateful to Tyra for choosing me to be a part of the show. It was such a huge dream of mine to be on that show and be in the modeling industry. And there were certain things going into it. I knew this was going to be a TV show. Like there was not like, you know, I think that it's unfair for us to really use this lens of today on a show at that time, only because it was, it really was a different time. I know that a lot of people have really haven't really been happy with hearing that oh it was a different time but it really was it really was a different time it was like you know the beginning of reality tv that was on the same time as like fear factor and like uh the swan and all of these other crazy shows you know and so you know it's it's unfair for us i feel to really say it was just tyra and and kind of attack just

her. I think, you know, I just know personally for myself, she changed my life. So I'm really grateful to her for that. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really interesting perspective. And you're right. I mean, you see a lot of comments about people being like, stop saying it's a different time. And I get why people are sensitive to that because sometimes it feels like people are trying to make an excuse for how the show was made and things like that. But to your point, I think it's important to remember that Even as fans and viewers, like Nelly was saying, when we were watching it back, at the time when we were watching it, at least when it first came out, no one was like, what's going on. We weren't questioning out loud some of these very controversial things that we didn't have to hear behind the scenes to know that like, maybe this is like not okay. Yeah, maybe this isn't okay.

And we were all enjoying it and laughing about it and talking about it. Yeah, for sure. and talking about it. So we were just culturally, we were all kind of complicit in accepting, you know, the different times that we were in. And I think it's just,

it's very easy for us as fans to sit back and wag the finger and point the finger and critique. Well, I mean, if the show was really all that bad, I don't think there would have been so many people going to sign up for the show. I don't know.

I don't know. That's kind of hard to say because some people will do anything, no matter what they think they have to go through. But at least for me, I watched the first few cycles. I was a big fan of the show before going on it. And if anything, those previous episodes or seasons or cycles gave me a little intel as to like, okay, when the makeover happens, don't lose your shit. Like it just, it was like a key to like staying on the show. But I was also like a fan of it beforehand. It was it was all the rage.

No, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, like, I've said this a few times. I was like your friend Susie on The Bachelor a long time ago. But, like, I've never heard the reality TV star come on, like, an interview or whatever and say, you know that thing that I said that you all love or that thing that I did that you all love? That actually wasn't my idea. That was a producer's idea. They should get credit for how good I look in this moment.

I've never heard that. I have heard many reality TV stars say, oh, I was told to say that when the thing they say doesn't land or it doesn't look good or blame their edit. And it's not to say that like a lot of people who go on reality TV in general are put in these kind of very complicated situations that are just unnatural. And it's not to say that we can't critique it, but it can be refreshing to hear you be able to strike that balance between, yes, I have, there's some situations that we can talk about that, you know, weren't my, you know, that were difficult to deal with. This affected me in a negative way. Like, we can talk about that.

But like yourself, I have a lot of moments from my experience in the show that were hard to get over that I deal with. But I'm sitting here with you today. I wouldn't have any of this if it weren't for that franchise and to go on that franchise and the opportunities they gave me for all the good. And there was plenty of bad. And there was definitely some dark moments. whatever it was, but I can still be appreciative of what it gave me.

And it's refreshing to hear someone in your position recognize that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, to be completely honest with you, when I watched back the Netflix doc, I felt as much as, I want to say this in the same breath, I definitely feel for Shandy and a couple of the other girls who were really traumatized from the show. But I went into this thinking, this was going to be. be a like, let's talk about top model and maybe where the girls are now and let's just like revisit this show. I really didn't think it was we're looking for accountability from Tyra.

We are, you know, we are talking about, I've got to be fully transparent here. I thought it was going to be maybe like 10, 12 girls to see that it was only like a very small handful and the girls who've had like the worst experiences. It's kind of like, oh, I really did not. think, I mean, I was so, I truly have a balanced, like a true appreciation for Tyra. And so much of this modeling industry, especially at the time when it came to our bodies, like it really was in the middle of heroin chic era. And I was aware of that, you know, I think, I think that the show could have handled it with a little bit more care, considering the viewer, because there were so many young women. And, you know, I think I may have mentioned this in the documentary, but like hundreds

of women have, you know, either messaged me or commented on a video from an interview or something that I've done. And they say that they've gone into a, uh, an eating, had an eating disorder, developed some kind of, uh, like a really poor, like self image, um, from that. So that, I think it was damaging to more than just me, but everyone, you know, but at the same time, I'm not, not, I'm so appreciative. It's totally led to where I am now, which I love what I'm doing now. That's, yeah, that's like kind of a fascinating thing. I mean, Nigel said it, you know, when he was interviewed, and we had a chance to speak with him too. And it's, you know, it's, you know, listening to you trying to find the right words. And I know he did too, because like, it's such, especially now in

26. You know, we're in the, you know, accountability and, you know, you can't, everyone is from their side. They're the righteous person and then, you know, it's easy to point the finger. But to your point, there is a level of, we have all heard stories about the modeling industry. And, I mean, it is the modeling industry. So it is about appearances and, and how people look and their bodies. And, and so it's even him trying to find the words of trying to explain, well, I'm not making it okay, but like this is the industry as a whole and how do you strike that balance

to have a conversation that's productive around it? Yeah, for sure. But you know what I will say? And this is something that I think viewers don't understand that at least with America's next top model, they are trying to satisfy every person in America at that point.

If you line up all of the winners of the show, it covers every demographic that you could think of. It's like the first two winners were white. And then it was like, okay, black America's like, where's our black girl? Then we got the third winner who's black. And then fourth is, it was my cycle. She's interracial. And then we go to like petite. Then we get our redhead.

And then we have our curve girl. So it's like at the end of the day, the winner's already chosen. And it's a storyline. And there are things that they have to find while we're filming to give a person a reason to go home. Yeah. You know, it's there's like politics involved in like the show. And so I've always understood that just behind the scenes, just understanding they're just trying to keep the show running and keep everybody happy to keep watching. watching. How did you have that perspective at 19, like being in this, being on the show,

like being able to separate the two? Separate the two, meaning of like this, watching the previous cycles and being like, okay, this is, I get they're making a TV show here. Also, I'm going to like. Yeah, you don't see a lot of that from reality TV people. It's like a lot of it is, you know, they're the main character in their story and this is their moment. And especially nowadays, a lot of people go and it's just like, you know, you see the success other people have, but you forget about all the people who, it didn't work out for them. And they come in with these expectations, this is going to happen for me, this is going to happen for me. And then when it doesn't happen for them, you know, it's easy to start pointing fingers and things like that. But to Natalie's point,

you seem like even at such a young age, a really healthy outlook on what this opportunity was and what it wasn't. Oh, well, I appreciate you guys saying that. That's pretty cool. For one, I was obsessed with the modeling industry before getting into it. I know a lot of the other girls who were maybe not like, who did not go into, a lot of the girls stopped completely after doing the show. I was like, no, I have to move to New York now. I have to like pursue this for real now. And so I just had a different respect for the modeling industry in general. I just view that as like my golden ticket in. And plus I'm a very competitive person. So I was watching the show. I used to get just chills and goosebumps when he used to come on. I just felt like I need to, you.

get on this show. I can do this. And so that's really where that came from. But like at the same time, not expecting to be like babyed. I knew that it was TV. Like I don't know. I just like a part of me like knew that and understood it. It was just really fun to be on it and not knowing what you're going to do for the day. You're with all of these other women. It felt like a summer camp. It was so much fun. Were there moments during filming where you like had to remind yourself or remind the there women like this is a TV show don't take it too serious it's going to be okay no because to be honest when when girls get all freaked out like there is a degree i guess this is maybe just

my competitive nature but like there's a degree where you're like well like you do your thing you know hey that's you yeah and then also when girls get go home i think this was actually something that contributed to Tyra's outburst was that one of the producers or editors told us that for our season they selected very friendly girls who would who was going to have

would have a different like overall narrative and so many of the girls would feel so bad when other girls would get eliminated and I would see this and it would be like that just made you one step closer to winning like I don't

understand why you guys are sad about this, but I don't know, I just think I have a very competitive nature. I get what you're saying. I mean, again, not to, but like, most reality TV shows have some kind of elimination and not, yeah, it's kind of like, see ya, you know, like. Sorry. Yeah. You know, because it's, it's, it's, it's, it is nerve wracking. It is very much so, because you feel like, you know, at that time, I did not realize that it was not going to be the most helpful thing for my career. Once I moved to. New York because reality TV was not like revered how it is now.

Agency's reviewing us as reality stars. So I moved to New York. I lost a bunch of weight because I was like, well, you guys are not about to. I was like, I now got to be ready for the real modeling industry. Yeah. It's just they, so this is how it is in the modeling industry. Okay.

In order to get signed to a modeling agency, you either need to be a completely fresh face or you need to be experienced and have traveled and have been published in magazines and your portfolio was built out. We were neither. We were household names, so we weren't this fresh face. And we had zero real experience. I couldn't use my actual portfolio from Top Model because the images were like,

crazy on an alligator, you know, a crazy heavy makeup. It was just not indicative of the real modeling industry at all. There were a couple of things where you could see where maybe Tyra was like, oh, the modeling industry is like this. You know, but it was such a shocker to get to New York and see that, yeah, this is not. And to use the photos from the show in your portfolio, was it the photos that they chose? Because obviously it's been like they've decided sometimes they'd choose like not the best photos that they could have something to talk about. And then it's like were you forced to use that photo at, like was that the only one they gave you access to? Those were the only photos we ever saw.

Oh, wow. Period. From the whole thing. I'm even surprised. One of the crew sent me my portfolio. He was like, hey, look, like, I'm going to send this to you. I think you did a really great job. And he sent me prints, which I still have.

But every girl did not, they didn't say, like, hear your images, guys. They just like, left us out in the wind with it. Yeah, figure it out. But even still, yeah, those were the only images. And yeah, absolutely, those were not the best image. Because so many of us, after elimination, we would be like, is that, was that really my best shot? And I think, you know, it was discussing the documentary a little bit. But yeah, it's, that's part of the TV, you know, over at all.

Was there any moment watching the documentary back where, you know, especially hearing your perspective, you had this, with this. seem very aware, healthy kind of understanding of what you signed up for to a certain degree, I imagine. But was there anything you watch back listening to Tyra or listening to Ken or any of the judges where you were like, that's how you guys did it? Or did nothing kind of surprise you? What was kind of surprising was how much Tyra said she was not involved in things. And also Jay making it seem like he wasn't involved in things. He was a creative director. for our shoots. So, for example, when we had to, we were in Africa and we had the different animals and I got the elephant, I'm pretty sure Jay had some level of creativity in that. Like, you know what I mean?

And so, yeah, just seeing like, I guess, I wasn't looking for accountability though when I was watching it back. I really truly wasn't. But just seeing that thing, that being shuffled around and tossed around to other people was interesting. But nothing really, nothing really surprised me much. Tira's kind of response to you. Oh, well, you know, yeah, I would say that I was surprised, that she apologized, and I'm appreciative that she apologized. Did it feel genuine? I'm just I'm appreciative that she apologized that the words came out you know I I the thing about it is that we were so young especially for me to be like a fully grown woman now we were so young and I would be so careful about saying damaging things if you're coming on as like a mentor guide to people and so now I'm a post coach and I would be so careful about saying damaging things if you're coming on as like a mentor guide to people and so now I'm a post coach and and a mentor to so many models. I've been doing this for 11 years now.

And I have to be very realistic with them because a lot of people want to go do Victoria's Secret and be in vogue and do all of this high fashion editorial stuff, but there are such strict requirements for that. And I have to be very careful with breaking the reality to somebody that maybe that's not the market for you, you know, because when we try to get into the modeling industry, we can't make the industry concede to what, like, you can't come in and say, I'm going to be the first 5-4 model to walk for Gucci.

Right. You can't claim that yourself. Like, you have to be chosen and there's standards and requirements. And I have to be careful. And that's part of my responsibility as like a mentor and a guide to these young models. And then show them, hey, you can actually make a lot more money over here. But there's a way to do it. You know what I mean?

But I think that because of the time period of the show, it just wasn't even on their minds. Yeah. Who's watching? How we're affected. It just wasn't even. Because I do feel like they used the like, this is what the real modeling industry is like. So we're going to treat you the same way as like their, you know, it's like Tyro would kind of always fall back and be like, this is what it's like in the real world. This is what they'll say to you.

Yeah. I'm giving you. Right, which is honestly that part really did prepare me, which is why I went and lost weight before even going to New York. But I want people to understand, like, I'm 5'11. And at the time, I was about 130 pounds, which is really, really slim, like very, very slim. I was maybe between, I was probably like a size 4, between a 2 and a 4. And so, which I'm not too far from now. And it's like, I don't know, they did kind of preface.

But again, it all comes back to the show and TV. What was your relationship like with your body before you went on America's Next Top Model? That's really interesting, actually. So I grew up here in L.A. And honestly, I was made fun of pretty badly for not being curvy and thick and for being really. slim. I didn't really have. I mean, I had glasses, braces like most models kind of start off, kind of awkward. And I was always made fun of for being too skinny. So by the time I went on to the show, I was like, well, this is where I belong. This is perfect. And then to now all of a sudden,

like, you know, hey, you are, you are not, you are not skinny. It is like, okay. So it was a shock and it was it was confusing but um yeah it was just something that you do you feel like their commentary about your body or your appearance was they just decided that you were going to play that role or was it at least from the modeling perspective did you eventually take it as like harsh but constructive feedback or was it just like no i got typecasted as as this body type for for purposes of tv i think it was maybe a little bit of both, but I was definitely, I was, I was so, so skinny.

Yeah. I mean, on 511, 130. I was really, really, really skinny. And I think it did have to, like someone had, I went into the show thinking I was going to be the first black winner. And when I went in, when we were, while we were filming, the third season that had already had its first black winner, had won. She had one and we had no idea because it was airing while we were filming. So I, the whole time,

was thinking, I'm going to be the first black winner. I'm going to be the first black winner. And so to, like, in hindsight now, it's like, I don't know if they would have had like another black winner right in a row once you look at their lineup of winners. So I do, a part of me feels like, oh yeah, well, they just had to find something and stretch that thing out. Yeah, in a major way. And, you know, there's another documentary that is coming out on E, and that one has Janice on it, which will be really interesting to hear Janice's point of view. She's brutal.

Janice was brutal, but, you know, believe it or not, when we had the, when they talked to me about the weight, Janice was the only one who came up to me after the set or after, you know, actual filming and gave me, like, advice and pointers. was very real. Like, I think that she had a persona to be, I guess, the Simon Cowell of top model. But she was actually very cool. She was more human when the clients were off.

She was more human when the cameras were off, for sure, for sure. It's like, hey, you know, sorry, you know, but like, here's some real good advice. That's interesting. How did you, I'm curious, how did you, you talked about like this was a dream, you were a fan, how did you end up on America's next top model? What was the process for you? Oh my gosh. I actually audition twice.

I was in my freshman year of college. And I sent in a videotape for the first time, an actual, I'm totally aging myself. But there was a VHS thing, like recorder that I had to rent from my campus to film my runway walk in my dorm and send in some pictures of myself and didn't hear anything back. That was for cycle three. And then for cycle four, I was watching Ricky Lake. Are you guys old enough to remember Ricky Lake? I'm 45. No?

Okay. Hey, what's going on? I got you. I was watching the commercials. And Tyra was like, if you think you've got what it takes, you know, in L.A., you can come in person and audition for America's Next Top Model. And that's the one I went to and made it all the way through. Do you remember your first time meeting Tyra? Yeah, for sure.

I thought I was going to pass out and die. I was so excited to see her. I was so young. I hadn't really ever seen anyone who had really been on TV or somebody that I really admired. And they like to surprise us with Tyra. They like to just let it be a curveball. And so every time it was just really shocking. But it was nice.

Was she at that audition in person? No. No, she's just the producers or casting directors. Yeah. Watching the do. documentary back, you said you watched it with your support system, you had your mom there. What was that like to kind of sit by your mom and have her watch this with you? Oh, it was amazing having her watch it with me because she's, she's just always been like my biggest, like, supporter and has always believed in me. Even from me moving to New York at 19, just bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and broke and like not knowing how I was going to make, make it. it at all. She's just always been there for me. She's just amazing. So it was really nice. It was nice. Was it when the show aired and she watched it, was there a little bit of like

Mama Bear energy where she was kind of like, wait a minute. Or was she also kind of just, I guess this is what TV is. I don't know. Well, we watched America's Next Top Model. We had watch parties every week because this is when this is before streaming. All these. conversations I have now, just age the hell out of me. It's crazy. So we had to actually wait for the, you know, stuff to come out. And I would just have a bunch of friends over and we'd watch it collectively. And it was awesome. And she already knew when I came home, because she asked me when I came home from filming, like, did you win? What happened? And I, you know, of course, told her I didn't win. And so it wasn't like it was a surprise. And they felt for me. But they also

kind of like understood like yeah but we also saw live for the first time how much editing does you know even in the clip of me posing as as the elephant that's what's really interesting about now that we're in 2026 we all edit and we know what technology and AI and all this stuff looks like and so even when you watch the show back now if you were to watch it you can tell where they're cutting and splicing sentences You can tell when you visually look at it, it's like, my stomach didn't really do that. They did something and made it like, they edited that. It's just so bizarre to see like now. Yeah, you're right back then.

We just had no idea. We took it all for granted. We just took it all in. You know, there's like a voiceover. Exactly. A lot of times they're making TV. They're interviewing you. Exactly.

Getting your, you're just talking. And then they will, you know, show a scene. they hear you hear a voice for sure speaking but yeah those two like have no actual correlation yeah at all reality but they use it together and it's so easy to i mean to hear that and to change context and the meaning and things like that you're right now everyone's a bit of an editor yeah everyone understands like tic-tac and things like that and so yeah you're a little bit more hyper-aware even after filming and after living the experience of doing america's next top model and then watching how they edited it, I could not watch the other seasons. So I really don't know many of

the other girls from other cycles after mine because I can tell just from a girl, you can just by the music that they're choosing. If they have a girl come on and all of a sudden the music is yeah. Okay, she's going home. She's going home this week or that's a voiceover. That was done after. I could just tell all of that after living it. In the documentary you mentioned like the you eating something and then putting it like on a loop and you're like that was the same bag. It was a bagel. A bagel, yes. Yeah.

And that was, I mean, it was, it was crazy. Yeah. If you show me eating. It's so funny even having this conversation now. But if you show me eating the middle of a bagel and then the end of the bagel and then after. After that, you show me eating the beginning of the bagel and I'm in the same car. It looks like, man, she brought three bagels out the house and woo, she was hungry. You know, it's that, I remember watching that back and that like pissing me off so badly, so badly.

That led to, you know, I definitely had issues with like eating in public after that. Really? Like in New York, I didn't want anybody to think, you know, she's eating. There she is. Another human being over there is eating. She's really enjoying that bag. Chewing and swallowing. Yeah, yeah, she's chewing and swallowing stuff, guys.

So, but also, like, the industry was just horrible. You know, there was a couple. I had some connections with people to have interviews with some of the modeling agencies. And even after me losing a bunch of, like, water weight to just be a, as stick thin as I possibly could. The agencies, one of the agencies, which I won't name, but I will, I'll never refer my models there now because of that. But I remember that one of the agents was just like, yeah, so if we can get you to just

come down like a little bit more. So I probably was maybe 120, 125 at that point. And she was like, so maybe we can just eat like a Caesar salad, no croutons, dressing on the side, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. and then come back to us in a month. Those were her literal, that was her advice. So she told you you eat salad for a month. Salad, but yeah.

But then also, she basically told me to eat lettuce only. Yeah, like to have like chicken, but like dressing on the side, like maybe. What is dressing on the side of me if you can't eat the dressing? Not putting it on. Like not getting all of that full serving of dressing, you know. You get two dips. Yeah, two dips, max. But at the same time, I mean, on top of that, I was doing, I was doing, there's

drink, but it's something that gives you like really good energy to like burn calories. And I would be on the treadmill, just cardio, cardio, cardio. And it just gets to a point where it's just not good for you, you know. I mean, well, after, you know, you go on the show, you're this very thin, 19 year old, very tall person. You go on the show, you get cast it as the elephant. Glutney. Glutney. They make it seem like you're eating all the bagels on side. You're like zooming in on your stomach.

Oh, God, I remember it all. And then you go into the modeling agency and realize that, yeah, they're not fucking around about weight. At what point did you kind of have like an epiphany to just be like, what am I? This is not how I should be and this isn't healthy and this is not, I don't want to keep doing this. Hmm. It took years, honestly, because I was living in New York and I just, I started working. I started working. I went to Paris and did Paris Fashion Week, Milan, London Fashion Week, L.A. Fashion Week, Miami Swim Week. Like, once you start booking the work, it's like, okay, well, I just need to keep this going. But then I also realized I can make money in other areas like doing commercial print where it's not that big of a deal. And so, you know, all of the things that I've learned on that journey of, like, really being in New York and, like, really feet hit in the pavement trying to get signed, I now understand everything that they want to see, you know? So that's, again, like, led so much to how I'm helping aspiring models now. I'm curious. You kind of alluded to it, you know, when we started having this conversation. And I was, it was refreshing here to say that.

But before we had a chance to sit down with you, I was talking to the team. And yes, it definitely seems like Tyra wasn't perfect. And certainly, I'm sure a lot of fans wanted some accountability. And we had the pleasure of speaking with Nigel and Jay. It seemed like a lot of their press that they have done for this documentary. It was centered around Tyra. And they certainly seemed like they had their stories and their frustrations. Some of them didn't hear from Tyra, you know, when Jay was fired.

and there's a story there. But do you feel like in any way, Tyra's been a little scapegoated by some of the other people involved in making this show in a way that, like, they could have maybe done more in some of these instances that the models have spoken up about, about some of these unfortunate moments that we all could have done better, so to speak?

And do you feel like, was it almost, did you want to hear more from some of the judges or some, like, or can? That's a good question. I definitely feel like, first of all, I love Nigel. Nigel has been like, I've seen him. We've run into each other. He's been pretty awesome towards me about everything. Miss Jay, who I feel so, I'm so happy to see that he's doing better now.

But even after I got eliminated when we were in Africa, Miss Jay walked straight up to me and said how much he wanted me to win. And that meant so much to me because I was invisible at that point to Tyra. She had like walked right right past me after one of the fashion shows. This is why we were still on the show. Like we were still filming because the last two. So the top five girls made it to South Africa. And for continuity purposes or to keep the winner, to keep it, I guess, a secret to the people in Africa.

They had us all walk in the finale fashion show so that no one would know. know who's been eliminated. And after that final show, Tyra walked right past me as if I just didn't exist. And right after she walked past, Jay walked up and said that, you know, he was rooting for me. And that meant so much. And that stuck with me for so long. And then in the same breath, after the situation of, I mean, it's a little heavy to say sexual assault, but the situation with Bertini, the dancer model.

guy. That situation happened and Mr. Jay like rolled his eyes at the time and I think I've seen him mention in a few interviews that he wishes that he would have had a stronger backbone to be able to stand up to Tyra. But, you know, at that time on set, Tyra wasn't there and his reaction was so dismissive of the entire thing that I know personally for me watching all of these things play out and everyone's making Tyra the villain is like well Jay you at that photo shoot Tyra wasn't there it was it was you and so it does suck you were expecting someone to stand up to him well well I mean I was the one who stood up to for myself but I mean in that time he was the one authority there to either acknowledge what I was saying or not. By the time it made it to Tyra, the photo shoot's already

done. Right. So it's like, well, what made it to Tyra? And how did you feel about what I was saying about this male model? You know, so it's just very interesting, but. Yeah, that's an interesting, yeah, remark given that she wasn't there. Yeah, Tyra wasn't there. So let's just say, like, Tyra makes her, her statement, but at the same time, it's interesting because Tyra is says that she didn't know. But you have footage. You guys are all looking at this footage and editing the footage together. So you did know exactly what happened because it was recorded. But, you know, it's more so about just Jay was the one who was there on set, you know? Because it almost, if that is your, that's how you remember it. That's how it was.

Yeah. Then it almost would make sense not to, again, offend Tyra. But if they're all editing it and they're in the editing bay, and she's watching it. I imagine one of the people she went to for like, well, what did you think about it? It was probably Jay. And so she heard his perspective. Exactly. And you remember his perspective to be dismissive. Initially, the initial response, live in the flesh of, hey, I feel very uncomfortable, was really dismissed.

It wasn't like a hold on. Let me talk to producers. Let me see how I should respond to this. Exactly. Exactly. And so, and I think another part of it that I think was completely, just if I'm being honest, that was just like dismissed there was that this male model was so inappropriately hitting on me saying he was going to come and find me in America. He wanted to date me so badly. It was like, it was like an immediate obsession type. Like I've been hit on before, but it was like heavy. Right. And that by the time we got to the set, that, that, That's what made it seem like it would feel like it was so uncomfortable. It's because he hit on me so heavily beforehand. And it was on camera.

And he's miced up. And there's someone listening to his audio. Exactly. People filming and like knowing that this is going on and this is happening. I think that's where the frustration for me kind of comes in. It's like there were so many people who could have said something. In that situation you were put in, was that something that was fairly common back then? You know, because now in today's culture, you know, filmmaking, you have an intimacy coordinator.

So like now when you have models or actors in this kind of vulnerable position, they're making sure that it remains a very professional environment. Was that a problem in that industry back then? I don't think so. We had a previous photo shoot before we went to Africa, like very, very beginning of the season where we were, We had to have a pillow fight with these firefighter men. I don't know if you remember this. Yes, I do. And so I was like straddling this guy.

There was no issue there because he was like professional. I don't know if there was an intimacy coordinator, which sounds so nice. But I don't know if they had. I don't know if that was a norm back then. I don't know if that was a norm. But, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, our voices need to be. heard and respected, I think. And I mean, again, I struggle with finding the right words because I understand. I just, like, I have a level of understanding. I don't want this to all come back onto

Tyra. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's a level of understanding that I have, but I think for sure, like, if a woman is saying that she's uncomfortable and the model is like knowingly cross the professional boundary already, somebody needs to pull him aside and have a conversation with him or replace him or whatever. That dance photo shoot was supposed to be them dancing. That was not supposed to be a groping, touching, grind in bump and grind. And then to the point that you pointed out in the documentary, like, you chose the photo of him grabbing my hips. He was grabbing me.

Yeah. Do you feel like, I mean, you were so strong in that moment to even speak up, you know, I think a lot of women, myself included, would have been like, just eat it. just get through this, don't do it, don't say anything, don't interrupt it. And you were so strong in that moment to be like, wait a second, I'm not comfortable to then be immediately shot down, to then have Tyra be like, you need to deal with this type of thing in a fun way. Did that, not necessarily that situation or that did you ever get put in that position again? But like, did that change your mentality going forward in this modeling industry of like if I'm in that situation again, I guess this is how I have to handle it? Absolutely.

not. It made me, I still knew, I think also just because of like just how my mom raised me. But let me paint the picture to you. In one of the first episodes, there was a, there was a challenge where we all had to, we went into bankable productions or some office space. And we made us all sign these contracts. And the contracts were bogus. Okay. like completely bogus. And so Tyra, they made a whole challenge out of it or like a learning moment out of it for us to know our rights, stand up for ourselves, read the paperwork and, you know, yada yada, be on, be your businesswoman and do all of that. So I promise you, the one thought that did go through my head at that photo shoot was, what would Tyra do in this moment?

Tyra would say, hey, I'm uncomfortable. Yeah. And this needs to stop or whatever case may be, like in whatever way that she would deem appropriate. And so it was just confusing for me for just that moment. But not at all did I think, oh, I can't speak up for myself if a man is making me feel uncomfortable. Thank God. Moving forward. Yeah, thank God. Thank God.

Was Tiffany on your cycle? She was. I can't believe. That was my cycle still to this day. Were you there when that whole situation went down? Yes. Yes. How do you remember it?

Exactly as it played out on TV. It was incredibly, okay, you got to understand. Panel was the time that we all dreaded. Okay? And panel was held like in the house. It seems like panel was this place that you drive to and we get judged and whatnot. But it was like on the other side of the kitchen. And so just the energy of like going into that room and be at panel is just so heavy because you just, you might be going home.

And it's quiet. It's dead quiet. It's not like how the fans you hear the music or whatever. Oh my gosh. It's the silence. Oh, it's the worst. And that's where like the competition gets real. It's like, okay, we've been having fun all week and, you know, whatever.

But it gets super real here. And so that energy was, I still, like to this day, I had never seen Tyra lose it. I had never seen her raise her voice. She had been coming in as like Tyra, you know, she'd been coming in as like our mentor and like our savior. So it never, it just, I was this completely shocked and surprised. But a part of me understood where she was coming from only because I have. had a huge respect for the modeling industry at that point. I wouldn't, you know, I cried. I boo-hoo cried when I left. I felt that like, oh, you know. And so a person who's,

who may not feel anything, I think that Tyra just found it like, like disrespectful in a sense. Like, how dare you not care that you're getting booted from this? Yeah. Did you see Tiffany's response? She commented on a, or said something along the lines of like this. Was way worse. Yeah, like you bullied me about like me and my son throughout the whole thing. You were never nice to me. I think that there were maybe some other words.

But again, this was over 20 years ago. And so I really don't remember word for word. But watching it back, the energy we felt, you felt being. Oh, for sure. I was petrified. And what was the energy like after that? Oh my gosh, it was the worst. It was so quiet.

It was so awkward in the house. We all felt like, this is not a joke. This is not a game anymore. She's not doing a scene. Yeah, yeah, this is not. And you know what's hilarious is that we knew that it wasn't scripted because underneath the panel, like, and underneath the kitchen in the house was like,

an editing room and the editors like all night kept replaying it over and over and over and I guess they were all in shock too watching their clip yeah we got gold so y'all could hear them editing the show yeah just that but we had never heard them edit anything else or replay anything ever it was yeah we could hear it full blast and playing it over and over and over they were celebrating Probably. Yeah. That's crazy. Did Tara address you guys as a group afterwards?

Or did she just kind of act like? Yes. Did she? No. She addressed us as a group after Rebecca passed out. There was another girl who passed out because she had this condition that, like, I guess, would cause her to just lock up and black out. And she walked up and told us about how scary that was, but I don't believe she spoke to us after that. She just let that marinate and like riffle through our DNA.

Yeah, wow. What is one of your fondest memories looking back on your cycle? Being able to go to South Africa, honestly, you know, I've always, at that point, I had always envisioned myself going to Africa, but thought maybe I can go much later after I, I, I've made a lot of money and I'm able to travel internationally. I haven't traveled internationally. I don't think up until that point. And so that was a highlight for sure, being able to go on there. Winning challenges was really fun.

But the overall experience was amazing. It was so much fun. Watching the documentary, a big part of the narrative was, and you referenced it before, is how this show didn't fulfill its promise on setting up these models for success. outside of the show into the modeling industry. And through my experience in reality TV, I've always said that being on reality TV gave me incredible access in zero credibility.

And that has been really helpful for me to remember when I get in certain rooms and people are just kind of like, you know, like we're asking you all these questions, what was it like, you know, gave me some like tea behind the scenes, you know, they're just fans of the show and I just want to hear that stuff.

but it did get me in rooms. And so when I was watching that part of the show back, I was kind of like you, kind of was just like, you know, I see what you're saying, and that's definitely, it's, I feel bad for anyone who came in with a dream and left feeling disappointed,

but hearing how you left that show and how you approached the experience. And you had a similar experience, which is to quickly realize that, yeah, I mean, this has opened up a lot of doors for me, but this has made this part of the gig that much harder. I have to prove myself. I have to get this credibility that I clearly don't have with these agencies.

I really respect how you went about that. And I think it speaks to why you've been able to have the success that you have. I mean, did you realize that in the moment that you were kind of taking that kind of objective approach rather than, and again, every model's experience is different. And obviously, some very difficult experiences. but I imagine a lot of them who, you know, went on the show and didn't have to deal with maybe some of these more traumatic experience that some of the models did, and it didn't work out, kind of will blame the show as to why their modeling career didn't work out,

as opposed to you kind of took your career by the horn, so to speak, and took charge, and it sounds like you look back, you were still able to use America's Next Top Model as a reason for your success, even though in some areas, it hurt you a little bit, but you were able to overcome that. Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good connection. Because we're talking about the modeling industry here, seeing that there were some hurdles

and it wasn't as much credibility with the actual modeling agencies, it's still because of my drive and like I'm not going to quit. I've been through so much, I've moved to the other side of the country. I have to keep going. And there were so many other models at the time that whether it's top model was a part of the equation or not, like if they're just like regular models coming in, right? They also had a degree of like, well, I got to keep going. That is absolutely true. I got nose just like all the other models, but my nose had something to do with like top model, but I had to still just like keep pushing and keep going and learning.

Okay, well, where can I? Where do I fit? Where do I belong? Because, yeah, I mean, it was a true passion for me. It was not to be a reality star. I didn't even believe. I remember the moment that Ken, like when we got accepted onto the show, and we were in some room and Ken turned around and was like,

you guys know you're going to be famous, right? We were all like, yeah, right. We didn't realize how big the show was at all. But I didn't go on to the show for that reason. It was truly because I wanted to compete and be, you know, the winner of, of this show, and I respected it. Yeah, well, I mean, so just such a mind fuck these, these experiences people have, because, you know, I think when we're kids, on some level, whether it's modeling or not,

there's always a fantasy of, like, becoming a celebrity or some kind of public figure. Right. And then you, maybe you have a talent or not, right? And then when you get brought on these shows, you have to, this kind of this weird acceptance of, like, why people know who you are type of thing. and I imagine for a lot of the models who left America's next top model, they were very much banking on America's next top model being the reason that they would have success. For sure.

And then when they didn't have it, I imagine that being very defeating, you know, to be like, oh, well, fuck, you guys told me this would work. And you were like, oh, okay, well, fine, this won't help me. But it does help me, you know, like I said, imagine it got you indoors and got you in conversations. and I'm sure a lot of people were fascinated with meeting you and talking to your stories. And when you're in those conversations, you got to be like, I'm going to show you the real me. Absolutely. I mean, it opened up so many doors. I've met so many.

Plus, like moving to New York in general was like, people are hustlers and go-getters. And I just was thrown into a world where you don't give up. And I believed in myself to the degree of like, okay, I'm not, I can't turn back. back now. I cannot turn back now. But, you know, developed amazing relationships and connections with people. But the biggest thing that I'm grateful for is that I was able to, through the rejection, was able to learn the do's and don'ts of this whole thing, like how to build your portfolio, working with really good photographers, especially for models of color. There's only like three hairstyles that we can even really wear that are considered marketable in the modeling industry.

and a lot of people, you know, even black women, don't even realize this sometimes when we're looking at advertising. And so there's so many things that I've learned about the modeling industry that now I get to put in a pretty little package for aspiring models and, like, show them the way. Like, that is the most fulfilling thing about this whole thing, you know? Yeah.

And so, yeah. As a mentor, I'm curious because, again, like, a lot of, the industry and the show, a lot of any built-in excuses is like, well, you know, it's the modeling industry. And, like, you know, we judge people by their look and their bodies or whatever. But you've been able to find a way

to work with these young models and mentor them and show that you can deliver this direct feedback and steer them in the direct direction. Right. And you don't have to be cruel or mean about it. And maybe, like, I also imagine a lot of models who became talent agents and run agencies. I imagine every bully was bullied type of thing.

And it's almost like they're kind of taking it out on the next generation and justifying. It's like, well, I had to go through this, you know, and now you do too. But you've been able to do it in a much more... I would think it's in a healthier way. I don't know if you were going to use those words. Sorry to put words in your mouth.

But I think it's in a healthier way that's less damaging. And even when I do that in a healthier way for some girls, I can tell this is a really tough pill for you to swallow right now. And it's not just like weight and size. Sometimes it's height. Like height is a big thing. And that one is really tough because you can't do anything about your height. And so it's like tough. I know exactly how these girls feel.

But definitely now that there's body positivity and way more inclusivity and so many more modeling markets in areas for people to make money in the modeling industry. street. It might not be the runway. Maybe it's for Macy's. Maybe it's for, you know, something that's just like more commercial. And so at the end of the day, for me, I try to show them that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. So my company is called Find Your Light. I help them find it within and on set. I've known to have mastered the art of posing. So now I show, you know, these models and some celebrities as well, like how to pose and how to kill it in front of the camera. Really excited. It's been, it's been amazing. It's been amazing to be able to still stay in the craft of it all because I, I was just really passionate about and didn't want to give up on it.

And to give back in such a positive way to like stay in the industry, but like. For sure. Well, I mean, it's better, it's better to, for a model to know, hey, I've given it my best shot. I have a really great portfolio because I have a full service where I can build their portfolio, shoot their digitals, teach them how to pose, build their book, whatever. Like it's a one-stop shop. But it's much better for them to say, okay, I've tried it, I've done, I've submitted to agencies, I had really good materials and it doesn't work that way as opposed to people having no idea where to start and then it just stays this kind of delusional fantasy of a career that you

want to get into that you can't really say you've even tried. It's also so helpful because when I was going through, I mean, I remember them being like, you need to build your book. And I'd be like, what the fuck goes in a book? Like, what do you want to see in there? I don't know. I have to schedule my own photo shoots, but like what are you, what am I supposed to be doing in the photo shoots? Right. Right. How different. What's the range you want to see? So like the fact that you offer all of that is just, I'm sure, so helpful for all of these people going in being like, there is so much unknown. Yeah. And were you, you were assigned to an agency, I'm assuming? I was. Yeah. It took a while and it took a lot of, I was definitely called fat a lot. And I was really? And I was very skinny and very small. Even when you're

with an agency, that is not the end of the road. No. You still need to add more stuff to your portfolio. You need to stay active and your agents won't come on and tell you do this outfit, do these kind of moods and expressions. They do not jump in there with you to like make it happen. We're not sending you on another casting until you get more in your book. Yeah. It's like, oh, how do I do that? What? Thank you for your help. Yeah, for sure. So that's, that's why it's, it's really fulfilling for me. Because imagine, I mean, wanting to model, I think, is just as valid as somebody wanting to be a doctor or whatever the case may be. It's a passion. It's a passion of yours. It's something that you really want to do. But there's no one who shows you how. So I'm really happy to show them how.

Do you think your approach is becoming more common, or do you feel like inside the bigger talent agencies, even today, there's still some of this very toxic way of communicating about these models? I think it's absolutely still very toxic. I think that my business is probably the plushiest, cushioniest. I'm making words up at this point. But it's like the softest place where you can come and learn those things with like nurturing care and love. You know, there's nowhere these agencies, they don't give you any information or feedback first of all. But once you get signed to an agency, there's a ton of other girls who are already working. Like, if they can't make money from you, they're not coming over to you, coddling you saying, hey, baby, you need some more pictures in your book. They're not doing that at all. You just kind of silently get shelves.

So that's what's kind of toxic about the industry is that there's really no nurturing. There's no union for models. There's at least a union for actors, but there is no union for models. Oh, that is true, yeah. There is no, nothing to make sure that we don't get touched on said or whatever's happening, making sure we get paid from our agencies. That is wild. There's still nothing. Actually, there's tons of companies that run alongside the money.

modeling industry that are not real, that scam people and charge them thousands and thousands of dollars, promise them, I'm sure you're familiar with some of these things or have heard about it, right? And there's really no protection for these people. Yeah, they still notoriously bad at paying their models. No, it just depends on the agency. You know, if you're with a legitimate agency, they're good with the paying. But you don't get paid, you don't get paid in a couple, in a week or two. Like you get paid, you know, I think LA just changed it to like net 30, but I think in other areas, you still have to wait like 60 to 90 days. But that's just like the industry. What is your favorite part about helping these young models? Seeing their

confidence boost. Yeah. And seeing someone have clarity. Clarity is one of the, one of the best feelings that you can have related to a lot of areas of our life, right? Clarity on where you're going, clarity on plan B, if this doesn't work, clarity on, is this something that I can do? Yeah. Clarity on, okay, this pose looks good, this looks bad. That clarity gives you a sense of relief, you know? So that feels nice because I knew for so long, like literally no one helped me. Tyra, nobody from the show, other models that I knew in New York, they also couldn't help me,

especially if they weren't black because they have a completely different experience. It's like they can't come and tell me, hey, like, you shouldn't be wearing a weaf. You know, that was, you know, that was, that was tough. So, like, I know how it feels to feel like I have no idea what I'm doing, what I'm putting in my book. I'm just going to do a bunch of free photo shoots that actually don't look good. But this is, like, the only thing that I know that I can do. So providing that confidence boost for them to have, like, a thick skin and clarity, those are. That's beautiful.

For any, say, parents listening to this episode who have daughters, you know, 17, 18 years old who are like, I want to be a model, I want to, this is my dream, what advice would you give to them or what are some things they need to be mindful of if they want to support their son or daughter in this industry? I would for sure, that's such a good question. I would absolutely say make sure that this is something that your son or daughter really genuinely wants to do. But also like make sure that they are not using the modeling industry to validate them. Because we have to, so much of it is out of our control. And we have to deal with rejection and not hearing back from anybody. And just because you don't get a modeling job, like that doesn't mean that you weren't pretty enough or skinny enough. or whatever the case may be. It doesn't mean that all the time, but that's how it feels when you

don't get the job or you don't get signed. And as long as your kids know their worth beforehand, that's like, that's gold, just knowing your worth. Also, making sure that they have a sense of identity and personality that have like nothing to do with modeling, you know, like, because it can really affects a person's ego as well. Like, I've worked with models as well whose egos were just like, through the roof. And it's like, I have to remind them, which is why their business side of it was like lacking. It's like you, it's not just looks, you know. It's relatability and being memorable and like being confident, being yourself. Are you able to be authentic in a space? Are you able to just show up and just like talk to casting directors and not like put these people

on a pedestals just to like secure some job or or do other like odd things that people do to to like elevator grow in the industry you know. I'm sure there's probably a couple of other things as well but it's just like make sure they know who they are. Make sure they your kids know who they are before getting into this. But I would also for sure say figure out as soon as you can if this is 100% something that they want to do. Figure it out either yes or not. know, because if you're kind of wanting to do it, but you realize that maybe you're super sensitive or it's really surface reasons why you want to model, you're not going to make it

through the hurdles and the rejection and the, maybe you're in a bad city, you know, maybe you're in a city where it's not going to really become much, you know, in order for you to move and do all these things. Yeah, that was another thing. It's like, oh, New York isn't your market, but Miami's your market. Yeah, like learning the different. There's so much to it. And if you don't want it that bad, you're not going to move there. If you move there, you're not going to like keep it going.

Right. Well, I mean, just the validation part I think is so great just because I imagine so many people, whether it's models, anything in entertainment, a lot of people do it for that validation only to find out that the last thing they get is validation. And they get, it's, I mean, I'll never forget my first time going on TV. And I thought I was like an all right looking guy from Wisconsin. And then people are on there. It's just like, I'm the ugliest person in the world. Like, you know what? My mouth is fucked up, you know?

And people are just like picking you apart. And it's like validation. Yeah, it's the last thing you'll receive. But if you really have a passion for it, you're willing to do the work. And you enjoy the process of getting to wherever you want to go, then you can really be, For sure, enjoying the journey and not making that the end-all be-all. People don't realize that modeling is not really, unless you really make it to like the top, top percent, this is not going to be your main career. Even in high fashion and stuff, there's no longevity in it.

It's only for a few years, really. At the end of the documentary, Tyra teased that there might be another season. Is there a world, let's say they knock. You got a call. And they're like, can you? We'd love you to be a judge. Oh, a judge. Or just have any type of role, whatever it would be.

Would that be something you would be willing to entertain? I would come on as a judge. Yeah, I would come on as a judge. I think that at this point, considering that Tyra and everyone has heard everyone's opinions and all of these things, that I think they would be a lot more careful moving into a 25th cycle. So as long as it's not any fuckery going on, I wouldn't mind coming on as a judge. Do you think that it'll actually happen or do you think that was Tyra trying to manifest something? I don't know. It could have been a tester. It could have been to put feelers out to see what people would say.

But I think at the end of the day, no matter how dark some of these things or traumas that we went through, I think that there's always going to be people who would sign up for sure. Oh, yeah. like so it doesn't even matter you know like it's I think that'd be pretty bold to to come on and say that at the end of a documentary where everyone is is wanting to hear your opinion and then it not really be happy I don't I you know it's just hearing your perspective interesting like you know I'm gonna you know you got asked to be a product's documentary not knowing what it would be you asked answered some questions I'm really curious what her expectations were and what she thought it would look like. Well, yeah. I mean, I, you guys have to understand when you go in to do a documentary, you have no idea what their storytelling or their narrative is going to be. And so, yeah, because a lot of people were like, I'm surprised. She did this, you know? And so it's, it's, that being said, I don't, I mean, if she had, I think it would have been worse if she hadn't done it. Yeah. Well, what, how different.

were, since you were part of the Netflix one and the one that's coming out on E, how different were your two experiences? It's the same. Same. It's, I'm always truthful, like, you know, in these things, like, I'm telling my story. If anything, that one might be a little bit more real of, of, I really don't know. I still have no clue. Yeah. Because I don't know how they're going to portray me on that.

But these were real. experiences, I definitely have a little bit more emotion on some of the things because it was my first time really watching some of those clips back. So I was definitely like maybe a little bit more emotional. I don't know. Got to see. We're going to watch it back with everybody. Yeah. And is the emotion more nostalgia or a mix of happy and sad times? I'm just feeling so bad for my younger self, you know, who just wanted that so bad. Yeah. You know, and like, you know, all of our younger selves, I think we have like a soft spot for our younger selves.

If you could tell Kenya 19 years old going into cycle four, the American's Next Top Model anything, who you are today, what would you tell her? I don't know if I've ever been asked that specifically. Like what I would tell my younger self going into the show for the first time. Kill it. You're going to go really far. All of this is going to make sense. It's all going to make sense. No matter what you go through, it's all going to make complete sense later on, for sure.

I'm just, I'm a really big believer. My grandmother told my mother this. and she's passed it along to me that, you know, every single thing that you go through in your life is literally to prepare you for the next thing. So. In a smart ramble. You know, it's like.

I mean, I'm a big believer in that, you know. It's all led to where I am now. It's crazy that I've been doing this for 11 years now of coaching and mentoring girls. I've got about six models right now that have beauty campaigns in Sephora, which is awesome. I discovered a model at my gym in Miami who has gone on to get signed to nine modeling agencies. He's done New York Fashion Week. He's done all the fashion weeks.

He got signed in Paris as well. He's killing it. I'm really proud to have been like a part of these models journey. How do people find your program? My website, find your light today.com. And then also my Instagram where you'll see success stories and my. Me posing it down and, you know, I do these big retreat workshops. So I like to curate photo shoot experiences for these models.

It's kind of like my own little baby type model, I guess. But again, because so many models don't know how to really build strong portfolios, I will like rent out these really amazing spaces and do these big photo shoots. So I just did one at the Invisible House in Joshua Tree. I'm not sure if you guys heard of the Invisible House. It's like all the mirrors. It's like a glass house basically. So I had like a whole slumber party like situation, working with two amazing photographers, stylists, and showing them how to pose.

Like people don't realize America's Next Top Model didn't really teach us, teach us. It's kind of like let's get all of these young people and ask them and let's make them compete to see who makes it out on top as opposed to we're going to show you the ropes, like really show you the ropes and then see who prevails from there. So, you know, that's what makes my whole situation different. That's great. Final question, and I really appreciate you being here and having this conversation. And I just appreciate your fairness on this conversation. What do you want the takeaway, as we now have watched it back? There was the 2020 kind of renaissance of people rewatching this and feeling a certain different way.

Now the documentary has been out. What do you want the legacy of America's next top model to be? Oh, man. this was a show that gave a lot of us a taste of the modeling industry and gave us a glimpse of that accomplishing that dream and I honestly am still just eternally grateful for the experience and I had a blast with it. I'm so glad that I was a part of it and I want the legacy of it to be positive. I don't want it to be this negative, dark thing, you know, I really feel for a lot of the other girls and that, you know, we all had our different experiences. But I think Tyra was a pioneer

in the sense that she really did allow a lot of other women who maybe would not have been seen or appreciate in the modeling industry to have a chance. You know, she really did give us a chance. So I think there were good intentions there. So, well, King, I appreciate your time. Yeah. And thank you for everything. Yeah, you've been so vulnerable and open about obviously some of the tougher parts in your life. And as someone who was in the dark side of the modeling industry, you having find your light in this mentorship is, it's so inspiring.

And it's just so beautiful to see. And I can't think of a better person to, like, lead the charge on this. And so I know all of those models are in such great hands. And I hope, I hope everyone listening. And if you're listening, you're interested, I'll put your website in the show description. Sign up. I do consultations. We'll talk about your goals. See whatever it is. You know, what your weaknesses are, strengthen your weaknesses and get you going. There's work. Yeah. It's like, you know, you always hear these stories about the industry and just it's the Wild West and you really are alone.

Yeah. And there's just a lot of pitfalls about actors. So it's great to, you know. There's guidance. There's guidance here. Let me lead the way for you. Well, thank you guys for listening and thank you again, Kenya. We appreciate you. Thank you for having me. We'll see you guys tomorrow.