The Viall Files - Nigel Barker Talks America's Next Top Model Doc, Love Is Blind with Kevan, Traitors and RHOBH

Episode Date: February 17, 2026

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Reality Recap!  Happy Tuesday! We have a lovely episode for you today, as we get into some Love Is Blind with Kevan and welcome icon Nigel Barker to discuss the new America's Next Top Model documentary! Plus, we get into RHOBH and Traitors, Valentine's day weekends, and more! You won't want to miss it.  "I did keep the watch."  MERCH COUNTDOWN: https://shop.viallfiles.com/password  The Viall Files is going LIVE with the new cast of Temptation Island on May 6th! Tickets are on sale NOW! For more information, please visit netflixisajokefest.com.  Want ad free episodes and incredible bonus content?  Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  HEY! YOU! DO YOU NEED DATING AND RELATIONSHIP ADVICE?  Email [e-mail] and be a part of future Ask Nick episodes! Subscribe to The ENVY Media Newsletter Today: https://www.viallfiles.com/newsletter  Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff now!  Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774298881  Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4NWA8LBk15l2u5tNQqDcOO?si=3b868996930347e8  Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod Listen To Disrespectfully with Katie Maloney and Dayna Kathan now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0J6DW1KeDX6SpoVEuQpl7z?si=c35995a56b8d4038 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w To Order Nick's Book and/or learn more about the show, go to: https://viallfiles.com THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: FIGS - Check out the limited-edition Team USA collection, and get 15 percent off your first order at https://wearfigs.com with code FIGSRX. Ollie - Head to https://ollie.com/viall, tell them all about your dog, and use code VIALL to get 60% off your Welcome Kit when you subscribe today! BetterHelp - Sign up and get 10% off at https://betterhelp.com/viall  Quince - Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to https://quince.com/viall for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Rakuten - Download the free Rakuten App or go to https://rakuten.com to start saving today. To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 14:48 - Traitors 26:23 - America's Next Top Model: Reality Check 31:37 - Nigel Joins 1:16:10  -  Kevan Joins 1:38:58 - Show Recaps Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @nigelbarker @kevanjones_ @ciaracrobinson @justinkaphillips @leahgsilberstein @the_mare_bare

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Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vile Files reality recap edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by my magical, wonderful, supportive wife, Nally Joy. And I am joined by the household. Yes, Sierra Justin Mary. It's not been Valentine's Day, everybody. Hey, you said it right. Because sometimes... Times with an end.

Sometimes it's times. Sometimes. Sometimes it feels like it should be. We have an extraordinary episode lined up for you today. So many great shows are out there. Everyone's talking about them. We have the documentary of America's Next Top Model that's now on Netflix. Reality chat.

If you guys have not seen that, if you have ever watched a single episode or even heard about America's Next Top Model starring Tyra Banks, you are going to want to check that out. We also have season 10 of Love is Blind out there and rocking and rolling. And this one, it's a good one. It's, well, we're really enjoying it. We also later this episode have Nigel Barker from America's Next Top Model. He was one of the main characters of the show, one of the celebrity judges, and he is with us to talk about his experience and the documentary that is obviously sweeping the nation. We also have Love is Blind season 10 out as well.

And we also have Kevin from this season to talk about his love triangle and so much more. Also, Traders is out there. there. Everyone's, you know, everyone's still talking about that one. So lots and lots of great TV to get into. Plus, we have the Housewives of Beverly Hills. The real ones. Also, don't forget, Vibeil Files Plus is now ad free. Every Vibele Files episode you can listen to Ad Free on Vial Files Plus. Plus, get your reality recap deep dives, where we dive really deep into some of your favorite reality TV shows like Love is Blind season 10, as well as our update specials, your favorite updates from your favorite

S-Nate callers and your pop culture roundups, all your favorite topics we didn't get to talk about during the week. So be sure to check it out. Just go to vaughals.com to sign up. Also, don't forget, Val Files is going live with the upcoming cast of Temptation Island May 6th in L.A. So if you want to join us in the upcoming cast of Temptation Island, It's going to be a wild, wacky, sexy, fun, live event. Bring your friends, bring yourself, bring whoever you want. Netflix is a joke. You can get tickets now.

Well, they are available. Again, go to Vilefell's. Did you guys have a good Valentine's? Do you guys do anything? Mary's hair got pinker. My hair did get pinker. The season of love. I'm feeling the love.

I love Valentine's Day. Me too, even though I hate love, I love Valentine's Day. Why do you hate love? No, I don't actually hate love. She just hasn't experienced a young. Back it. Once you experience it, you will love love. I wore my Justin Bieber approved red cardigan sweater.

Oh. We were very... I saw that you guys matched. What was the... Natalie, that was for sure on purpose. Well, no. No? I picked that out myself.

Dad dressed himself that morning. Oh. Well, we all, obviously, we're like feeling the love. We were feeling the pinky and the reds. and so we all kind of dressed on theme. Thank you. If you guys haven't noticed, we're wearing some new merch

that is actually available this Thursday. And it's the greatest merch ever created by any podcast ever, certainly by us, really proud of this. Natalie and the team did a great job. All I did was give my opinion. But if you are looking for a really classic sweatshirt

that says like, oh, I got this at a vintage store from the 80s, that's exactly what you're going to get with the household. finally have your household. You get your household sweatshirt. Yes. Yeah.

How's your heart and the household. I can't tell which one I like the most. I will say Danny's a very harsh critic when it comes to like fashion in general. And I was wearing the household sweatshirt and he was like, where did you get that from? And then he also was like, are you going to get me a hat because I want to wear it? I love them. Well, unfortunately, not everyone can get one because the supply is very limited. So get it while you can.

There is a countdown. You can sign up to the countdown to be notified when the merch is live with the link in our bio. Sign up. Put your email in. Fall in love with the merch just like we are. You're welcome. I love a countdown. I don't know where this is going to go.

I realize something that I really enjoy that my wife says. And what's that? This is. I feel like that was. Weird king. This is like I don't know Is when she goes

Absolutely fucking not It's absolutely the fuck not Absolutely the fuck not Oh he loves it so much That he doesn't even know what it is When she goes absolutely the fuck not Yeah I find it to be hot

I think it's the decisiveness Cute Anyone else? Yeah I mean Yeah that's definitely Say it Natalie Absolutely the fuck not

Awesome. How do you feel? Awesome. Period. How'd you feel? I usually have a little bit more oomph behind you. Will you marry me? It's always nice to know where she stands, you know? And that is backed by a lot of decisiveness.

What warrants and absolutely the fuck not versus a no? Maybe a fashion thing question. Oh, did you all see what Nick is wearing on his feet? No. We actually can't see your feet. The van showed up And are they true to size? They are true to size if you're honest with yourself.

Oh, got it. These are a 10 and a half, which my whole life, I've been, like, I'm an 11. And when it comes to like 90s, I'm an 11. But I've realized, you know, like, I think 10.5 is really the most honest. Did your feature? Shoe size, which 10 and a half and 11 just sound. so different. It's like the difference between six foot

and five, ten. It's funny because for like, I guess for like men, maybe it's like 10 and a half may sound like a big difference from 11, but it's the same way that I feel when I'm like eight and a half versus eight where I'm like, okay, big foot, you know? It's me where I'm like, where I'm like, no, I'm a seven.

I'm not a six and a half. I'm a big girl. No, my feet grew during pregnancy, half a size. And Natalie, did that happen to you? Leah gave me old shoes. That's normal. Did it go back? No, I am now Absolutely the fuck not.

Now I am an eight and a half And I've always been an eight And none of my shoes fit me. When you say they grew like length? I don't know. My shoes just don't fit The same way that they did before. I think they grew in length.

It's a thing. Apparently. It is a thing. Among all the other weird things that could happen to you when you're pregnant. For the pregnant people out there? Yeah.

Yeah. So not only do we have to endure everything we have to endure. we also have to get rid of all of our shoes. Oh, my God. Or you could be me and just keep squeezing into your old shoes. That's why Carrie never had kids. Literally.

Too expensive. Nice joke. That was good. Sex in the city, baby. She's like, I'm sorry. There's too many shoes here. She's like all of those menolablonics. They're not, I have, I'm not getting rid of them.

Nope. I want to, I, we're going through a lot of baby names right now. I wish I could sample some with you guys. Can you, please? Can you sample the ones that are no-goes? Sample all of them, all genders. We're really centered around gender-neutral right now, because there's one name in particular we feel really good about it,

and it's in the general neutral area. And so we're playing around with a lot of general-neutral names. Well, also, like, River is-general-neutral. General-neutral? Gender-neutral? General-and-neutral. General-neutral would actually be a beautiful name. It's general neutral.

It kind of works. Yeah, general neutral. Yeah, general neutral works. Speaking of Valentine's Day, did anyone go see Wuthering Heights? Wait, yes. Can I have the floor for a second? Please, Justin, take it away. Why did they market this film as a Valentine's Day extravaganza event?

I mean, I can tell you without seeing the film or having read the book and know nothing about it. Because it came out on and around Valentine's Day. That's what he's saying. Yeah, you said why it came out. Yeah, marketing is intentional. They decided to release it. No, because I'm part of the. the population, and I take responsibility

for this, that had no idea what Weathering Heights was going into it, but I was like, Margot Robbie, Jacob Allorty, sexy music, Charlie X-E-X, like, aesthetic. I was like, I'm so into this, I'm going to go into it blind. Because you think of the word hot, sexy people, you know, it's like those are hot sexy people. Literally.

But first of all, who in this room has read this book or knows the story? What is it about? I have not read this book, but I have heard that it's not at all, like, what the movie is. No, so it's so different from the book, but also the movie is So, like, you leave it being, like, speechless, but not in a way that you believe in love. Like, I feel like I was like...

So it's an Emerald Fennell movie. Yes? Yeah. And it wasn't as horny as I wanted. Like, I was going into it, wanting more. The writer director, Emerald Fennell of Wutheringham? Yes, that's it. Is it giving...

What was the last Jacob Bellardi movie that everyone loved and I hated? Saltburn. Salper. Well, that's her. Which was Emerald Fennell. Yes. There's a... Tina Faye actually did a bit where she was like,

oh, you're going to have to act surprise about the... next Emerald movie when it takes a sexually violent third turn in the third act and that's what I heard did happen. Yeah,

just you leave it kind of being like, what was that? Yeah. Like not in a way that you believe in even unrequited love. Like you're kind of just

uplifting story. And then you read the synopsis of the book and you're like, this is even more traumatizing and different and like you know the characters and the whole time I'm just like Nelly Girl.

Like mentally abusive. Just yeah. And it was just like how was this the Valentine's Day movie that everybody was going to watch? Well, someone. posted a video being like, I guess people are mad about the casting.

The casting? Yeah. Because I believe Catherine was supposed to be like this young, like stringy-haired. Yes, younger. Mm-hmm. Girl. She's like a teenager, yeah. I saw someone post like if I were in charge of casting and it was like Catherine,

Blake lively, Heathcliff, Justin Feldman. I, you know, what I did on my Friday night before Valentine's Day is the, full Charlie soundtrack did drop. So I got a little wine drunk, cooked myself pasta, noise-canceling headphones, blasting that soundtrack. Oh my God, I think I ascended to another point. It is good music. You're not like nervous to her noise-canceling headphones?

She wears them all day. Oh, I'm nervous. Oh, well, I have like roommates. Actually never. Well, I also have like roommates and stuff who are with their like, because there could be an intruder. Wait, Natalie, I want to know why you don't do it because I also don't wear noise cancel.

I have intruder syndrome. and I'm constantly thinking that someone is trying to put a bag over my head and throw me in their van. The killer. And it's like, oh, if I'm wearing noise cancelling headphones, they're going to be like, we don't even have to like be sneaky. We can just, you can't hear a thing. Yeah. It's kind of like that movie hush, like where you don't know what your surroundings are. Yeah.

Well, I like to live in fear. Bold. Thanks. Well, I watched a movie over Valentine's Day that I thought was actually really really, good. What did you watch? Eternity with Elizabeth Olson and Miles Teller. It's really good, just saying if you want to feel good. Well, it's one of the highest viewed movies on

Apple TV right now, right? Well, that's what I was looking for. I was like, I want to watch a rom-com with Connor, but like not something that's too cheesy, but I want something that's like uplifting, feel good, but it's not depressing. Not a PSI Love You, not something where we're like crying or don't know what we signed ourselves up for. And we did Eternity and it was a very, very, very cute comedy.

The only TV we watched were some reality TV and in Homeland, where you are watching Homeland. But I did, on our way to brunch on Saturday, Natalie put on a beautiful, lovely Valentine's Day song mix. Very nice. Wait, what did you guys get each other for Valentine's Day? I do want to know, yeah.

And I've heard this song before, but I just realized how much of a banger it really is, but lover by Taylor Swift is an all-timer. So good. And we couldn't listen to the rest of the playlist. I just kept playing it over and over. It reminds me of like a Levi's vintage black and white gene commercial. Yes, yeah, I see it.

And like when I was a young man, every fantasy that I ever had when it was like a mute cute of like whatever lady who showed up in my life, it was always in the lens of a black and white vintage Levi gene commercial.

And so thank you, Taylor Swift, for channeling my, you know, nostalgia. It's a good song. I ain't shout out. Charlie's 50s, I really enjoyed it. Wait, so what else, Natalie, you made this playlist. What else was on?

No, no, no, no. I searched on Spotify, Valentine's playlist. Got it. Yeah, no, I don't have the time to make a playlist. I did want to know more about your Valentine's Day. So what did you guys do? You went to brunch, where was the brunch? We went, well, we went to our go-to spot, which is in Silver Lake called Marco Polo,

and it's like attached to a hotel, and so it's never really that busy. But the outside is just... A vibe. It's such a vibe. You feel like you're in south of France, maybe. Greece. Greece. It's giving grease. It's giving grease for sure, yeah.

With great food. But yeah, really good food. And we pull up, drive all the way there, pull up, and their door shut. I'm like, oh, my God, what's going on? We go inside and our server, who's always our server is like, our power's out. Oh, no. Oh, my. Not a good day for that.

How do we bring it? Yeah, we're like, what can we do here? So then we go to all time in Los Pheles. Have you ever been there? So good. Very good. Saw the guy who plays in suits. Anyways, well, I saw him sitting outside with his daughter.

And so we went and had brunch and then Nick had some insane flowers delivered for me in River. I saw that on your stories. That was really, really sweet. River, like, loved it. It was so sweet. Her first Valentine. Well, second, but I don't think you did anything for last year, did you? Nothing memorable.

I think I had to share my flowers with her. You know. All right. So we jump into some traders before we get to Nigel Barker. and talk some America's Next Top Model? I think I can stop watching here without my housewives. I was like, why am I watching the show without my girls? Yeah.

Rob really... Rob is taking a shift. Rob is really the housewives slayer. Rob is, uh, he's really feeling himself. Yeah. He is, we're getting, we're getting cocky right now. He is so cocky. It's too much.

It's like, how is more a Nazi? It's like he might as well be wearing traitors on his forehead. I mean, honestly, it's giving. they all know and don't care because they're just trying to be in the house of Rob. Well, Moro did call it out too. She's kind of said that at the table at the breakfast in the next morning. She was like, hey, and like it was kind of weird that she kept calling you out. And he was like, yeah, I think she just did that to like throw off the scent or whatever. But I feel like Moro's kind of like seeing it. I don't know. I felt like, I was shocked that nobody was like,

Rob, why did Candace put your name down twice? Like nobody asked. I think it's, what's interesting to me is that like, I, Rob is kind of positioned himself as a leader within the castle. And so what now psychologically, even if he, I don't know if he did it on purpose or not, they all look to him. And it must be terrifying to have the realization that the person you're looking to for guidance is the traitor. So they're all just pretending he's not because they can't emotionally handle that. The fact that Kristen is on to Eric and is still just like so not. Based off of nothing, she's so smart. No, this is exactly what I said was going to happen.

I was like, I don't think Eric can not be in his head after he becomes a traitor. He's going to start questioning everything. He's changing his behavior in a little ways that are being noticed. He's more quiet. Yeah, he was like he said, he was like, I'm so nervous to speak, so I'm just not going to say anything. And it's like, well, I don't know how he recovered from that. He probably was participating. Maybe we didn't get to see it because the edit, but like.

He's calling people out of the roundtable. Yeah. Remember, I heard Tiffany's laugh. or whatever. He was always wrong about what he was seeing and hearing, but he was saying things. That should have been his easy out with Kristen's be like, I've said too many wrong names. I just want to like change my gameplay. I honestly don't know how he recovers.

I don't know how he recovers because if he sends, if they send Kristen home, Mark was there. Do I think Mark could be easily convinced of literally anything? Yes. But he was there and he could easily be like, Kristen warned us that if she was going to go home, it was Eric. They're an easy spot though. You have Rob and a bunch of people minus maybe Kristen who are just happy to be there. Oh my God.

The whole Tara and Johnny being like, you guys, we're best friends. I'm like, I forgot that they were even keeping that a secret. Right? Like, I was like, is that a secret? Do they not know? Obviously, like. So funny. They didn't announce this clearly because, you know, they did it at the round table.

But like, I think everyone knew. It was their strategy going in the whole time that they were going to pretend not to be threatened, which was like a weird strategy. They noticed that they were more touchy and close now, but they played it wrong because it could have been like, we know that you would think we're suspicious by being close, but that's why we are close out loud, you know? But they didn't say that. They're so funny. Their strategy is all over the place. One of them are going home next week for sure because now they just sent one of the wrong traitors home. They have to.

Like they're not going to kill Kristen. They're going to kill terror or Johnny. 100%. Let these, you know, you know that meme that's like, it's the two dumb bitches telling each other. Exactly. Like, that's them. And I'm like, yes, keep them there. I want them to win by being stupid and loving each other.

Like, that's all I want. Justice for Tara and Johnny. Actually, Natalie might be killed or murdered. Oh, yeah. I feel like she's really just, I feel like her name was thrown around at like the second roundtable and she's just gay. Yeah, it'll be interesting because if you're Rob, do you think, I don't think there's a world where or Tara and Johnny figured out it's Rob. They could get, I mean, and by figured out, I mean, like, confident.

Like, come in with a, we know, here, here's a traitor, here's why, as opposed to just throwing out names. And if you're Rob, yeah, at this point, you just get rid of all the actual threats. Kristen, Natalie, I think those are the two probably strongest game players in the castle right now. And who else has left? Matt Mark, Maura, Johnny, Tara. Mark, Mora. Johnny, Eric and Rob.

Is that it? Well, Eric's now a traitor. Who else is there? And Mora, Johnny, Tara, and Kristen. Who's the dancing with the stars guy? Mark, Mark.

Mark. Those four in particular, maybe we haven't seen it, but they, they haven't offered, they look risk-averse. They look like they want to avoid conflict. They are just happy to be there.

And I think Rob, knows he has them wrapped around their fingers. You might as well just keep all of them and get rid of the, you know, Kristen and Natalie have proven throughout this game that they will speak up for themselves and they will, you know, they're still actually hunting the traders. And I don't think Mark and Mora and Johnny and Tara are really honestly that concerned about who the traders are. And so I would keep them and get rid of Natalie and Kristen.

I think Mark and Kristen are going to win. No. I feel it in my bones. Maybe more. I think that they honestly need to get rid of Kristen because even, again, I think that they could convince Mark of literally anything. And he's the only one who heard her warning about Eric. But I think Mark and Kristen are playing the quiet game. Like, I think they actually know. I feel like Rob is going to, I feel like Rob's going to lean in and be like, we should we should take out Kristen. And then it's going to fall back on Eric. And then Eric's going to get eliminated. And then Rob's again, only traitor. It's, it's, it's Rob's. game. It's just, it just is at this point. Like, there's literally nobody. Even, I mean, he's like, he's laughing around them. Yeah, it's ridiculous. He's getting cocky. You're right, Nick. It's like, he literally knows that he's won this game. And he knows he could literally tell everyone that he's a traitor and they would still keep him in the game. Also, every single person is like, I trust you, Rob. I try, every single person has like a one-on-one with him to discuss their strategy being

like, I trust you the most out of anybody. And I'm just like, I wish that you all just talk to each other and be like, who do you trust the most out of anybody? You know what was weird? I actually was very confused by. Why did Natalie ask Rob to say that he had the dagger at the roundtable? First of all, she said it out loud. It's like, bitch. Because I think she, like, wanted them to know that, like, she doesn't have it or that she's not, like, I think that's her, like, I'm as faithful as possible and they might think that I have it if you don't say something. Remember, she had it originally. Nobody knew that. I'm saying. I think it's part of that too, though. She wants, like, it's her play to have people to know.

I think it's her, like, the one idea that came to her head that was like maybe if they know I don't have it, that they don't think I'm a traitor, that they would know I'm a faithful. Well, there's a lot of talk online regarding the reunion of traitors. And apparently, you know, I think at this point, substantiated rumors is that Lisa Renner comes, Lisa Renna comes for Colton and Candace comes for Rob. So much so that apparently Colton and Rob have unfurred. followed those subsequent ladies. Rob has unfollowed Candace and Colton has unfollowed Lisa.

So what do we think of that? Do we think, let's Colton aside, specifically with Rob, do we think this is, you know, Rob has maybe a little too much thin skin, you know, and he should just kind of know what he's signed up for when it comes to dealing with housewives and knowing this is a reunion and things are going to get hot and steamy and accusations and criticisms would be thrown his way. Because having met Rob and interviewed Rob, he is a gentle guy. You know, he is definitely, it seems almost like an oxymoron because he's, you know, a reality TV star. But he is someone who like has come onto these shows, specifically Love Island.

Obviously, it's a love competition show. It's a love competition show. There is like natural drama that comes with like opening up your feelings. but like that's different than say like a housewife who is like looking for the drama and things like that. So how do you guys see it? Is it inappropriate for them to bring the housewives energy into people who like aren't housewives or do you think Colton and Rob are a little thin skin?

Absolutely not. I'm like, listen, I think getting red to filth by a housewife, especially Candace Dillard of all of them, it's going to be tough. It's going to be rough. And I'm like, the thing is Rob hasn't had a reunion like this. So it's like Love Island reunion, especially his season. was like, are you still going to be wearing the overalls? It's not like, why did you make me feel this way?

Or why did you double cross me? And there's going to be name calling. There's going to be. He's not prepared. Sometimes you got to, if you're going to fuck around, you got to find out. I was just to say, don't give if you can't take. But also, like, I think Andy said it a couple of reunes ago where he was like, this show is about cultural difference where it's like you have the housewives coming from such

a personal show. And usually that's against the game players. But at this point now it's against Rob, who is playing like a game player. also Colton, who's playing like a game player. So like you're going to just get that natural like pushback. Also to Lisa Renna's point, I think she was on Watch What Happens Live. And it's like you, Colton, you asked to see the housewife in me. You want to see it.

So I'm going to show it to you. Exactly. And, you know, apparently a lot of Lisa's questions are centered around Colton in traders talking about holding a housewife hostage. Oh, yeah. Oh, great. Which it's like, you know, not. Not getting into the weeds of Colton's history, but like some of those accusations against

Colton specifically the alleged harassment of using fake accounts to go after not only his current fiancé at the time, but former castmate, that is a behavior that has never really been addressed that is potentially risky for your other castmates. Right. So it's, you know, I think there's a lot of fans and a lot of people who learned. about Colton's history, specifically his castmates, who I think do have a right to ask some of these questions, regardless of the fact that he wants to,

whether he wants to address it or not. So they just film this. There's not like a release date yet? No, not yet. I imagine it will be right after, like, oh, within a week following the finale. I mean, also for the Housewives fans that have seen Lisa Renna at a reunion, like, she goes for the jugular. I can only imagine, like, she knows what she's saying,

and she doesn't hold back when you push back. Well, and think about it. And again, like, right, ever since Colton's been on the show, there, it is ignited past conversations about his time on The Bachelor. A lot of those conversations from people, again, people, a lot of feel, a lot of people feel like it was never really addressed. And that when it was addressed, it was kind of always kind of wrapped up in some of his other, you know, challenges that he's faced.

And it almost kind of comes across as a justification or an excuse. And Lisa says, ever since leaving the council has, I'm sure, seen these comments about a bunch of fans demanding answers, demanding answers. And I think Lisa took it upon herself to say, well, if you want answers, I'll go get them for y'all. Yeah, nothing's off limits for Lisa Rana. True. Well, we were also binging reality check, the new America's Next Top Model documentary, which is a show I grew up on. It's a show that made me want to be a model as a young, young child.

And it is crazy to rewatch it all back. Yeah. It's, if you guys haven't watched it yet, I mean, even if you didn't grow up on it. I mean, everyone's seen the memes. You know, I've, I'd see episodes here or there, but I wasn't, say, a fan like my wife or some of y'all. But, I mean, if you've ever watched any reality TV show ever, I mean, it really gets into the history and just the cultural differences that we have today versus when reality TV was made and just kind of how, you know, even as someone who like came up in the Bachelor franchise, you know, back from

2014. It's just like that conversation about like the right or wrong versus like a producer's role and and having conversations with cast and how much is if any crossing a line between encouraging people to if nothing else to not kind of listen to whatever voices are telling them I don't know if this. I don't know if I should do this. I don't know. I might regret this. And if nothing else, a reality TV's producer's job is to quiet those voices in your head in terms of wondering if maybe this is a good idea or not. I mean, like the way that they positioned certain things on one cycle, you know, like with Danielle and Joni, having them, their makeover be like, go to the dentist and get your teeth fixed. Like, Danny, we're going to close your gap. And she's like, no, I don't want my gap closed.

Like, I love it. And they're like, you're not going to get any jobs. You're going to be sent home. Like, you've got to get that. So then she basically gets it closed a little bit. And then like two cycles later, they're like, we're going to make your gap bigger. And it's like, what? Then there's Whitney, who they like shamed for being plus size.

And then the next cycle, they're like, we're going to make you gain weight. It's like, what? It's like as if she's like on a football team. And they're like, you need to bulk up if you want to play offensive line. Like you're too average. You need to pick a lane. It's like this. It's watching it back.

I remember obviously as a kid watching it not thinking, you know, I'm sure it gave me my own issues, you know, but like not thinking that some of these things were as big of a deal. And then to watch it back now and be like, oh my God, I remember these scenes. Shandy cheating on her boy, quote unquote, cheating on her boyfriend and having to call him and him calling her, like, his voice cracking and being like, you stupid bitch. Like, I remember all of that. But, like, learning that producers were there filming the entire thing and no one once stepped in being like, hey, maybe this should stop. Maybe this has gone too far. Like, everyone just sat by and watched it. Kind of pushing her into that situation.

Yeah. It's just. And then being like, when she's like, I want to go home, they're like, sorry. Like, you can't, you can't. She wants to call her boyfriend. They're like, you can't, you can't. And then finally, they're like, okay, you can call them, but we have to film it. It's just like, ugh.

And then the conversation that Tyra had within the next day of like talking about her boyfriend cheating. And like, it was just clear as day how sick. I don't know. It'll be interesting what people have to say about Tyra's, well, certainly her involvement in the show, but obviously coming up short, we do have Nigel Barker,

who of a lot of the people, I mean, certainly was a judge, but like of the main characters probably had the littlest influence of how things, how would you say it? He definitely was like the kindest

out of all of them, for sure. But it'll be interesting to see what fans think of, of what Tyra had to say in this documentary and whether they feel like she is owning up to what she needs to own up to. You know, I'm curious what many of you think. We'll dive into it a lot more on Wednesday and we'll have more people from the documentary as well. As this documentary unfolds and more and more people

start talking about it. But up next, we do have Nigel Barker joining us. I will say, he is someone who I didn't watch a lot of America's Next Top Model. I always had a big man crush on him. He is a handsome man. I just like, you know, I like, you know, girlfriends I would date would watch, it always be on. I'm like, that is the coolest looking guy I've ever seen. Best accent. He's also very tall. He's a photographer.

Six foot four. This shaved head, but it looks like the perfect haircut for him, you know, because he has a perfect face. So true. Anyway, he joins us up next to talk about his experience on the show and what it felt like for him to watch it back. So many interpersonal relationships and so many thoughts and feelings. think many of this cast is having as we all live back some of these both iconic and kind of devastating moments of reality TV. And we get to hear from Nigel himself. You know the little rush you get when you score a big deal. It's a thrill. But now you can get

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so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O-L-L-L-I-E.com slash V-I-A-L, and enter code V-I-A-L to get 60% off your first box. Nigel, welcome to the show. Good to see you again. It's a pleasure. Good to see you, too. I had the pleasure of doing Nigel's podcast a couple years ago,

and it was a big moment for me. I don't know if you remember Nigel, but I told you that I had such a man crush on you as a kid. You know, it was like, when I was a young man, I was like, that's the type of guy. You know, I want to grow up and act and look like. So it was, it's still cool to have a chance to talk with you because you were definitely someone who I, was a bit of a role model for me. You're very sweet.

But all that does is really make me feel incredibly old. Nigel, I really appreciate taking the time. And this has been a really incredible documentary. Have you had a chance to watch it yet? I have indeed. I've seen all three episodes. Really curious what fans and the audience are going to think. To me, it really is not just about America's next top model, but really just about television and our culture and reality TV specifically. It's just like how different things were back then and kind of what we've learned from our past mistakes, both from a cultural standpoint and just from a TV making standpoint. But I'm curious from you watching it back, someone who was obviously front and center very much involved in the show. How did it feel watching it back and what were some of the biggest surprises for you?

I mean, first of all, it was obviously incredibly nostalgic for me to watch it, you know, and my personal memories of the show are very positive. I had a great time on the show. I loved it. It was really, you know, wonderful for me to be able to take my family with me, all of that kind of piece of it. So, you know, but I was also, as one always is, you know, you're acutely aware of what's happening around you to some extent. And contestants who had bad times, hard times, difficult times, that sort of at the same time, it's somewhat par for the course for all reality television and shows of that ilk.

You know, I didn't know the ins and outs of what was happening to individual cast members, you know, because we were very much kept apart from all of that. They very much wanted the judges to be impartial. So I had no idea what happened outside of the photo shoot and outside of the judging room, ever. That obviously is not the case. for Tyra and the producers, Ken and what have you, on the show. So I guess one of the biggest eye-opening pieces of it were, you know, I was watching the documentary.

I was thinking to myself, wow, that actually happened. Because all I saw was what everyone else in the real world saw, which was on TV. I watched it for the first time alongside everybody else when they watched it on TV. And I oftentimes didn't know any more about it than that. And I kind of almost carefully maintained that. I was never one to sort of hang around after. sort of the judging was filmed or after a photo shoot to sort of gossip about what was going on behind

the scenes. I always felt that it was, you know, not my place and not my sort of moment to do that. And I would kind of move and leave straight after filming, almost deliberately. I think one of the big sort of eye-opiners too was listening to Jay, you know, Jay Manuel, who, you know, I've known now for 25 plus years. And I really didn't realize how much he was going through it on the show, to be fair. And I felt bad for him. I immediately after him, you know, I immediately after. After I watched it, I called him. And I said, God, Jay, I really wish I had known more about what you personally were going through on the show. And it's funny, because I knew certain things.

Like, I knew when he wanted to leave the show, for example. And then I knew that he couldn't. But I never knew why he couldn't. And he was very private. And he was largely because he was trying to sort of protect certain people on the show and stuff like that. So I think that all that kind of thing was very interesting for me and an eye-opener. Yeah. I'm curious in something I've learned being a part of reality.

TV on both sides of it. Whether you're a judge or like a host of a show, there's often a misconception with the audience that you have a lot more insight, power, and control than you actually do. Obviously, it's interesting to hear your perspective watching it back, but over the years, for better or for worse, did you have to kind of explain to fans who would maybe wrongfully assume that like you had more control or more decision making when it came to how things were put together on this show? Yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of been part of the cause. I mean, I think for me specifically, you know, having been the photographer on the show and, you know, and obviously a judge, I would always get questioned over, to say, the choice of the photographs that were being used for the girls, right?

Was it really her best picture? Was it, you know, didn't she? And I've said this before publicly, but in my opinion, sometimes it wasn't the best picture. However, that comes with the caveat that as a professional photographer, even when I shoot for a leading magazine, I don't get to say which are the pictures that are being used. I just shot a cover of a magazine just last week. And I absolutely think a different picture should have been used for the cover. Like a completely different picture. But did I get to have my – I got to have that picture made and they're going to use it somewhere, but they're not using it on the cover.

they had very different ideas as to what they wanted, they liked, the story they were trying to tell and what that was all about. And that is the real world. And so now looking back at it from a reality television standpoint

in many ways, you're like, well, should have been the best picture. The thing is, it's an aesthetic and it's a personal opinion. And the best pictures were picked by Tyra. And that's how that works. So every photographer that worked on the show, best shot was picked by Tyra.

Once in a while, we got a say in it. And we were allowed to sort of potentially tag our favorite shots. And that's normal, by the way. That's normal photography behavior, as in a photographer would tag their favorite shots, say their top 10, 15, 20, whatever, do a first edit. And then you hand over your pictures. But I see, this is the behind the scenes piece where the audience out there just thinks, well, goodness, you know, you clearly had it out for her, you know. And there were times where I'd even say, like, there was a better shot. I know there was a better shot.

Yeah. Tyra kind of opens up, I think, in the first episode about 2020 and how that, you know, everyone was at home and kind of rewatched America's Next Top Model. And that's kind of where, you know, TikTok was booming. You know, the criticism all kind of started coming out. Did you feel that as well in 2020? I mean, you know, my personal character on the show is myself. Yeah. So what I mean by that is, is that I've never been a sort of cruel person, you know, I'm not really sort of a bitchy type of person. I've never It's just not me. And I wasn't portrayed that way on the show either, luckily for me to some extent. You know, I mean, I've always tried to be a sort of voice of reason and constructive of my criticism. And so, you know, I think that just from the nature of who I am on the show, too, most of the sort of criticism out there was not sort of aimed at me specifically. You know, although I knew it was very popular during the pandemic and what have you.

And, you know, what I got was a lot of photography. actually sort of saying I picked up a camera for the first time because I watched you on the show. And, you know, a lot of models saying, like, I started modeling. I wanted to be a model and because of that show and, you know, and can I be photographed by you and I would love to do one of your photos shoots and those sorts of things. I, you know, I didn't. And I, but I was aware of, clearly, of the backlash as far as, you know, some of the things that were done and said that clearly wouldn't fly today, you know, and that. And sometimes, to be honest, honest, you know, even then at the time, I remember thinking myself, wow, did someone just say that?

Is that really, that's not really okay, guys? You know, but you're in a room full of people who are sort of like just looking at you and acting like it's all okay. And so you sort of think to yourself, well, there's enough adults in the room here and sort of executives from networks and what have you and psychiatrists and psychologists and, you know, we had all the things, you know, on that show. that you're like, well, okay, well, it must be okay. Or it must be fine. Or perhaps I'll edit it out anyway or, you know, until you actually finally see it. You know, and I think that when you are judging people, certainly on a beauty fashion show, and I've done a lot of these, right?

I was host of the face with Naomi Campbell for two years. And I've judged Miss America, Miss Universe, Miss World, Miss USA. I've done just, you know, I don't know, two dozen variations of America's Next Top Model all over the world from Britain's top models, Australia's next top. top models of Russia's, you name it, Finland's, on and on and on, to America's top model for 18 seasons. There are certain things that people say and do that when you're just, it's very personal someone's look and feel. And when you say something about someone, you know, I was, I've always tried to be sensitive to the fact that they're a human being. And I think that that

sometimes does get lost in, but, you know, when people, they switch off and that that sort of, you And in the fashion world, I remember as a model myself back in the day, people would say things to you like, you're too tall, your arms are too long. You're, you know, you haven't got a big enough chest. You know, you're not dark enough. Where are you from? You don't really look, you know, and I'm part Sri Lankan, for example, and then say, well, you don't look Asian, you know, and you look Hispanic. And just wild statements that would get thrown at you. That you're sort of as a young kid, you're like trying to process it. You know, like, oh, I, I don't, I don't. I, I don't. I, I, I, I, I don't. I, I, I, I, I I am part Asian, but I don't look Asian. What do I do about that? Oh, there's nothing I can do about that. I'm too tall. I can't shrink. I don't know what to say.

I mean, I'm not big enough. Or maybe I should push, work out more, you know. But the industry as a whole has a lot of flaws. You know, and so dealing with this industry is a tough one, certainly publicly. Yeah. Well, to that end, I'm curious. How much actual impact do you think this show has or had on the modeling industry as a whole, looking within and saying maybe it's kind of fucked up or messed up that we operate things this way,

or do you think it didn't? No, no, I think it had a huge influence, actually. I mean, and even if you listen to the models in the documentary too, you know, and on the show and after the fact, you know, full figured plus size, you know, all these sort of expressions for someone, you know, who's not a sort of a size zero. You know, models of that ilk, if you like, they exist now in a, you know, There are agencies based around them and there are divisions within the biggest agencies that have, you know, full-figured models and there are superstar full-figured models, Ashley Graham, for example.

And women of all sort of colors and diversity are sort of celebrated in a different way. But now, but rather back then when we was sort of doing the show, that was not the case. It was, you know, really like sort of for us to have sort of Whitney on the show who really, really wasn't really even a sort of a full figured model. She was sort of, and this was half the problem with that back then, when they'd sort of

talked about someone being full figured or whatever, it was like, how do you, it was still cookie cutter. And as in, you were either sort of sort of super skinny sort of size zero to size say four on the biggest. Or, you know, if you were to be full figured, that was really

plus size. And they wanted you to be size that of 12 upwards. And so anyone in between was sort of in between. Now it's a lot more kind of, there are sort of variations within that. And you can sort of, you know, in athletic models and, you know, and sort of muscular models, if you want, even female muscular models to, you know, the definitions have changed and the look has changed. But you still see, you know, runway shows with major designers today who have, you know,

very much cookie cutter looking models, all white, no color. no shaped, you know, and it's, and so as much as changes have been made, and many of them for the first time on the show, publicly at least, on a show like America's Next Top Model, the influence, you know, wanes, it comes and goes. Yeah. There's no doubt that there was a lot of influence made by Top Model, but I think at the same time, you know, it's, it's up to every designer and every person out there to keep demanding it and keep making it happen. I also feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that was kind of the show's reasoning for maybe some of the negative traits. It was kind of like, well, this is just how the industry is. Like, this is how you will be treated

outside of this show kind of thing. Like, you know, they're not going to accept you. They're not going to hire you. You won't get paid for this. Yeah. Yeah. And that was kind of their. You're right. You're right. I mean, we say it oftentimes on the show, and I've written about it certainly as well that what we were trying to help people sort of see and do is hear what would be said about them after they left the room if you were to do an audition or a casting and you know and the casting director was just to say you know thank you very much goodbye you know and you don't get the job and you don't know why it's hard to improve so what we were you know the idea behind it whether it worked on it and quite frankly it clearly it got you know went too far in many a situation where

we were trying to parlay to the girls, but also to the audience at large, these are the kinds of things that people would be then saying about you when you left the room. And if you're able to look at it from 30,000 feet, perhaps you can pick out the pieces that would help you either change or improve or get better at that or, you know, know what was wrong or know what's needed. That being said, because it's a reality TV show, it goes to extremes and, you know, and it gets exaggerated and it gets over the top and people play into it and they They ham it up and then feelings get hurt. And I think that's what happened.

But at the same time, oftentimes feelings were getting hurt, but people also found it funny. And so when people find things funny and sort of humorous, despite someone's being criticized, it kind of almost gets encouraged. And I think that that's part of the issue. I'm curious, Nigel, kind of going back to that cookie cutter conversation we were having, why do you feel like the industry operates that way? Ultimately, the modeling industry is for the consumer, you would think? right? You're selling clothes, you're selling photographs and things like that. And you mentioned like, you know, the zero to four, then like maybe 10 to 12 range. And you mentioned like everyone in the middle is kind of forgotten. But I would think that like the majority of the consumer out there is the everyone in the middle. And it's just like why when you go to runway shows do you see people who like, you know, beautiful, fascinating, very unique looks, but like not often relatable. And I think there's a combination of things. I think one is basic advertising rules as in you go to a a hotel website, they show you the best room on the front of the website. They show you the nicest

part of the hotel. You want to buy a car. They show you the top of the range car with all the trimmings, and that's what brings you in. It's like no one ever shows you the average of what's sort of in the middle. They always sort of show you the best of what they've got to reel you in. And then you end up getting the sort of the smallest room in the hotel, but you're in that hotel. It's a sort of a similar sort of situation with, you know, with fashion and beauty and modeling. People are, you know, potentially aspire to look younger because youth apparently is better. You know, when, you know, luckily, some of these things are changing. I mean, you are seeing older models now and some of the supermodels who are still modeling in the 50s, 60s, 70s now and looking wonderful.

But that being said, there's also incredible amount of retouching happening and AI happening and everything else happening. But there is also a practical piece of this, you know, something which is overlooked over and over again, which is fashion designers can't sort of fiscally or financially afford to make sizes in every size just for press. And there's a sort of a standard size that they make everything in for their samples. And that's what goes down the runway, that's what then gets photographed for photo shoots. And unless they go out of their way and say, we are going to make this in a, this specific size for these models, you know, to do a range of sizes, which some designers do. And it's not nobody, but most, the average, you know, people out there don't have the budget to do

that. And that cookie cutter size that is meant to be a sort of one size fits all is basically anywhere from a size two to a size four. It's a height of five foot nine. And it's a size nine shoe for a woman, right? So if you fit that, you're like cookie cutter average, and then it depends on how pretty wild rest of it. There are obviously always people who were taller to us. I'm six four. I was always a giant as a male model, funnily enough, six four. I used to pretend that I was six two. My agents would write on my card six two. If I said I was six four, I would never have anything to wear, right? My wife was also a model. She's a size zero, but she's very slim. She always has been. It's just genetically the way she is.

She oftentimes didn't fit the clothes. They would pin them and make them tight on her so they could actually, so that actually looked like it fit her. And she suffered from the fact that they were opposite, that clothes were always too big for her. Because they only really make them in this specific size. Now, again, these are the things. When you tell people this in the real world,

they kind of scratch their head and they get confused and they don't necessarily understand. But it's literally down to the fact that to create a collection of clothing can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. So then to make multiple sizes with the hope that you're going to find people. They just sort of, and the agencies know that. So they go out looking for models who are 5'9, size 2 to 4, size 9 foot. And if you fit all those things, that's what the average sort of commercial model is.

Nigel, you mentioned that at times in reflection, you feel like your time in America's next top model negatively impacted your career as a photographer. Can you speak on that a little bit more? Yeah, no, it's funny. You know, it hasn't. it hasn't, right? So obviously there are certain things that you have to parlay your success, however it is, into future successes and other opportunities. And certainly, no one, please feel sorry for me because I've had an incredibly, you know, lucky and successful career throughout my career. However, you know, when you work in the fashion industry, again,

this industry that is incredibly, has been and was and is incredibly exclusive and much of the fashion industry is still held behind sort of velvet ropes. They don't look kindly upon prime time television, you know, with big commercial sponsors of the likes that we had, you know, that were considered to be sort of too commercial and almost, you know, not serious enough. You know, fashion is sort of often considered a serious business. And we would make fun of it sometimes. You know, we would do silly, fun things, you know, crazy things. We would, you know, most of our fashion shoots and stories were based on real shoots that had

happened, even in high fashion magazines. But we took them to a sort of another level and then would add an element of comedy to it because we were making television. Yeah. So the fashion industry frowned upon that, didn't like us taking, making fun of it. or, you know, also suggesting that we could find a beauty, say, working at a Dwayne Reed or a Walgreens in the middle of Arkansas, you know, when we were like, actually, no, there are diamonds and are off everywhere. And they didn't like that. They didn't want us telling them what, you know,

what beauty was or whether we found someone attractive or not. And, you know, Tara and myself and everyone there were really actively interested in trying to sort of help people discover different types of looks and beauties and, you know, and I think just the industry itself didn't like that. So, yeah, there were definitely magazines and what have you that didn't look friendly upon myself and sort of stopped working with me at one point. But there were other people that then started to work with me, right? So it was just, whereas my career was on a sort of trajectory of kind of getting bigger and more exclusive and high-end, you know, jobs with really well-known magazines, that piece kind of wavered. And then all the sort of big corporate.

you know, commercial jobs came along and things were different. I mean, you only have to look at, you know, think about who our judges and our magazines and our magazine sponsors were on the show. You know, what is it? It took until cycle 12, until American Vogue gone involved with top model. Why was Vogue so late to the party? In large reason, you know, if you looked at the numbers of their subscription, you know, we were reaching an audience of 100 million people.

Meanwhile, no one was buying magazines anymore. more. They kind of needed us. They needed us to make them relevant. That was the irony is that Vogue, you know, we were more in Vogue than Vogue was at the time. André Lion Talley, editor at large of American Vogue came on. Italian Vogue became our magazine sponsor. But these went, this was when our ratings were dipping, right? They didn't come on and our ratings went up. They came on when our ratings were going down. They came on and our ratings still went down. You know, it didn't make any difference because young people didn't really care about what was in vogue or not. Sure, sure. You know, it was a, you know, that's when the era of, you know,

social media was on the rise and people were looking elsewhere for their fashion advice and influences were a new thing and all of this, you know, it was a big change. And in large part, reality television was a sort of precursor to social media. You know, it was that sort of, you know, a nod to the behind the scenes and the brutal truth and the honesty part of it and things you don't hear normally said and, you know, versus the sort of super polished, well-produced, end result of what you see in a magazine. You talking about like the kind of corporate world looking at the reality television of it all and struggling with some of the jobs, do you feel like that also happened to maybe some of the

winners, you know, where it was like, oh, you're going to have this illustrious modeling career and then they try and it's like, oh, well, you've just been on this show. You haven't actually modeled. Yeah, no, without a doubt. You know, it's funny you should say that too because, you know, something that not everyone knows. I know I've talked about it before, but I happen to get my own modeling sort of career launched from a reality television show in 1989 in the UK called The Clothes Show. It was one of the very first model searches on TV ever. And I didn't win. The winner went on to have one great year of sort of modeling and then dropped out and became a police officer. And myself and several other people who were on that show ended up having

successful careers in fashion in general. I, you know, modeled for a while. and then moved on to become a photographer and what have you, and several others went on to do other similar things. But even on top model, you notice that our winners often don't do as well as the sort of runners-up. And the people who are in the sort of who just made it there. And I think, too, you know, you can lead a horse to water. You can't always make them drink.

And by winning sometimes, it would almost be a sort of a mark on you versus it being something brilliant. It was a sort of a first step. And it relied heavily on. the individual then knowing how to market themselves. And some of our contestants, whether they won or not, were just brilliant at doing that and knew what they wanted and used it as a stepping stone. And others, I think, either rested on their laurels or hoped that there would be more

support when there wasn't any. And it was a harsh reality. And I think, you know, even when I look at my own career, that's where it was sort of a situation where I'm like, okay, so Vogue isn't going to necessarily hire me now. although they ended up I did end up working for them once Andre Leontali came on the show but it was more a question

of like well so where is my audience and who will book me and you know you do then find what that is and at least I did and then figured that all these different pieces of it out but it perhaps wasn't what I was expecting but it was the risk I took you know I remember

when I first was offered top model I did think about it I was thinking you know this is a risk But I knew what other way was there for me to become, say, a household name outside of some opportunity like this where I was going to be in everyone's living room once a week, not just in America, but all over the world, being able to show them what I do. And I think that was an incredible opportunity. And so, you know, I was lucky enough to sort of parlay that. What's your relationship at Tyra Banks today?

I mean, Tara and I are still friendly. I don't speak to her often. I normally speak to sort of once or twice a year. Sure. And things come up and something happens and we, or we, you know, we're at an event or something like that where we bump into one another. And,

you know, it's always been very cordial. You know, it's, you know, she's not someone who, who likes, funnily enough to have,

like, arguments or, or even, you know, be sort of, I don't know, have an aggressive agro situation. And that's why I,

sometimes on the show, when you see those moments when she explodes or does something, it's not really, her nature to be like that publicly actually or with people. She sort of doesn't like that kind of confrontation as for what I've experienced. And yeah, there were some hairy times and when, you know, when I left the show and stuff, I was definitely hurt at the time. I mean, I thought it was, you know, not handled well by the show and we were, you know, the judges were released in the way we were. At the same time, I'm a big boy and life goes on and you go, okay, it's business and you kind of,

you roll up your sleeves and you go, okay, well, yeah, perhaps I was a bit soft there. It should have realized that, you know, I know, that I was replaceable, perhaps more so than I, that, than I thought I was. Who have you remained closest with, J. Manuel? Jay Manuel, J. Alexander, Tyra, Paulina Poroskova, you know, Kelly Catron. I mean, there's a, there's a lot of different, you know, people on the show who, pretty much everyone on the show to some extent, you know, I've remained close with, but, you know, certainly the Jays, I see them regularly, and Kelly Catron.

I mean, we, we all live in New York, we all still work in fashion. and have done collaborations and have done other things together since then. In terms of facing scrutiny, I imagine Tyra is probably under the biggest microscope in terms of people having an issue. Obviously, she was an executive producer. She had a lot more responsibility and decision making. How do you feel like the audience watching this documentary will respond to how Tyra characterized her involvement?

I mean, I think they're going to be, I mean, hopefully sympathetic to her as a you know, and, but I think to, but also I think just Tyra, her own, her involvement in the show, she was executive producer. It was her show. And she was very, very involved. Yeah. And executive producer can mean not much sometimes. It can just mean, you know, you thought of the idea, you put your name on it, and you

in some executive producers do very little. They sort of sit on the sidelines, even if they're a big star. But, you know, Tyra had touched every part of that show. You know, everything we did, every episode. She knew exactly what was happening, what was going on, and, you know, was to some extent, micromanaged a lot of what was happening. Yeah, she didn't necessarily know what was going on as filming was happening. You know, she wasn't there in the room and, you know, she was obviously she was being reported to. But, you know, she held very close reins on what was happening,

you know, and didn't really give up ownership like that. She really felt like, because she really wanted to make a difference. And that's how it felt to me at least. When I would, you know, look at her watch it. I bet you see someone who's really vested in something and cares about every move that's being made and it's there and they created the show and their name is on it and that a front person and there's a lot riding on it for me I sort of that made me even more sort of step back and go okay no this is your show I get it and I'll do my best to support and do my role and fit in and do my best work and I'd be interesting to see you know I think there'll always there'll still be people who will probably say, oh, you know, so-and-so deserves an apology of this person deserves an apology

of that. But there's also a lot of people who really loved being on the show. You know, it's not, and I think most people, when you look at the audience, look back at Top Model as one of the most fun shows they ever watched. You know, one of the greatest times they ever had, you know, watching it. The sort of negative naysays are clearly are there and rightly so for a lot of the bad things that were said and done, but there's thousands and thousands of people who absolutely adored and loved it. And, you know, if you look at recently in the past sort of 10 days, I personally have been posting photo shoots and stories from Top Model as a lead-up to the release of the show. And every post that I've done has been a collaborative post with various

models from each shoot. They themselves are happy to collaborate with me and to remember the shoot and to share it with all their fans and say nice things. So, you know, it has far from being like, no, I don't want to collaborate with you. No, I don't want to have anything to do with you. It's been the opposite. It's like they're all reaching out. And there are many contestants who are on the show who I remain good friends with to this day. That's awesome. Nigel, this has been a really fun conversation. And really appreciate your insight into everything this documentary covers and America's Next Top Model in general. Before we let you go, we just have a couple of fashion fun questions for you. A little rapid fire. You've been in fashion for so long. You, I feel like, are just a wealth of knowledge. So we thought

we'd get your opinion on some things in fashion, whether they should go, come back, whatever it is. Let's do it. Okay. If you had to bring back skinny belt or skinny scarf. Oh, skinny belt. Yeah, I agree. Worst fashion crime, in your opinion. You know, I'm not about crimes.

I'm about whether you rock the crime or not. Okay. So, you know, I see a lot of people, you know, some people don't like certain things. I don't, all I like is it's the attitude. If you can't pull it off, then don't do it. So don't half ass it. That's the crime for me. It's like not owning whatever the decision is that you decided to make.

Like if you're going to wear cargo shorts in a vest and have a strut. Yeah. If you're going to do like this, you know, there's something about Mary hair. Own it. Own it. Thoughts on cargo shorts for men. You know, I'm not a fan. Sorry.

White after Labor Day. I think that's fine. I really think that's one of the most ridiculous things ever. Agreed. Logo heavy. logo free? I'm personally logo free. Is Clean Girl aesthetic really just creativity on mute? The internet thing. Yeah, you know, probably, but I don't think so. I think it's boring, to be honest. Best dress celebrity right now. Ooh, that's a good one. I mean, I think from the men's perspective,

I've sort of loved the way Pedro Pascal has presented himself. Yes. You know, I think it's very, very loose and sexy and cool and, you know, a bit smart and it looks comfortable. It's, and I like everything about him, his hair, the whole thing that he does, you know, so he's kind of like, for me, an epitome of sort of getting it right. Yeah. Men and flip-flops. It depends. You know, there's a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of big photographers as well who wear them all the time. If you've got good feet, sure.

If not, no. If you're getting pedicures on the regular, yes. All right, last one. What fashion trends should make a comeback soon and which fashion trend should not come back? Oh, okay. Which fashion trends should come back? Well, when I think back, you know, on my own career, there was the whole sort of herring chic, in my opinion, was like the, there was a lot of negative about it for the reason of the name

that it was how it was called. But what I loved about the sort of androgynous part of it was that it kind of opened up the doors for all kinds of types of people. And so I would love to see a little bit more of that androgy come through again as a sort of a movement, you know, versus the sort of very obvious on the nose, I'm a boy, I'm a girl.

And I think we've just sort of gone away from that. I kind of, I love the sort of the shades of grey, if you like, of sexuality, I think, in general. I think that plays. it's a beautiful thing to see. And what should go away? I don't think anything should go away. Okay.

Bring it on. Bring it on. Nigel, this has been a lot of fun and real privilege to have a conversation with you about this show. I really appreciate you taking the time. Where can people find you? Anything you want to promote or plug or put out there? Well, you know, if you're going to watch our show, perhaps you should shake up one

of our Barker Company espresso martinis. So I recently launched after my podcast, The Shaken and Sturge show, which you appeared on. I launched my own espresso martini company called the Barker Company. And you should be shaking one of these up whilst watching America's Next Stop Model to really get the full experience. I promise. I promise you, it'll wake you up and you'll really be on your toes as you watch the show. And where can people find that? So if you go to BarkerMartinis.com, but also you can find it in most good stores and what have you. So it's available at almost good liquor stores and total wine and so on and so forth.

All right. Nigel, really appreciate it, man. Thank you, Angel. Thanks so much, guys. All right, take care. Bye-bye. Thank you. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Listen, we know what it's like when it feels like everyone around us has everything

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and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Quince, Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com. Slash V-A-L-L for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash V-A-L-L. Well, really appreciate Nigel taking the time. I thought he was very thoughtful and very reflective of his experience. I'm sure it must be difficult for him to watch. There was a moment, I think in episode two or three was it, where they showed him a scene that he was involved in. He kind of had that kind of cringed. It's like, ugh, but like, I'm sure so many of these are just like a distant memory. And I think, again, like, I think it's very easy to look back and, and critique, certainly, and I think a lot of accountability certainly needs to be done. But this is one of those things

where I am curious for more you guys. Like what is your degree of? Yeah, I mean, it was a different time. You know, we kind of all spoke like this in a way. We certainly were less empathetic of people who are different than us. And we said things, told jokes that we are just not doing in 2026. So I'm kind of curious from you guys who, especially, you know, who aren't, who haven't seen reality TV being made and kind of just consuming it is.

fans, what is your perspective on on the difference in the times? I mean, I grew up with very toxic reality TV and I've been a reality TV junkie from the start, but it was like, we had shows like, it was like, unfortunately during that time, America's Next Top Model wasn't the most toxic of the bunch. Yeah. We had a biggest loser. The swan where they literally did plastic surgery and a person couldn't look in the mirror for three months until they were presented to the world after getting like 20 surgeries.

You had, I want a famous face where people would take in a celebrity's photo to like, try to look as much like a celebrity as possible. And like we were told that was normal. There was also that show where like it was before someone's wedding or whatever and they would just try to get them to lose as much weight as possible. Like a food camp where they were like eating ice. Biggest loser America's top model for Mary and I, we were so young watching those that like I know that it affected the way that I view food or like my body or like it taught us a lot

about the media which I think that had a pro there. But at the same time like it did it in a negative way. But I'm also kind of like where I'm like, I'm like, I'm not. not trying to defend it by any means, but I was like, the modeling industry back then, an entertainment industry in general, was extremely toxic. People would look you in the face at 110 pounds and be like, you need to lose 10 more pounds if you want to work. Yeah. And it's just like, where I'm just like, nowadays we're like, oh my God, I couldn't even fathom, couldn't wrap my head around it. But unfortunately, like, that was the industry that I was like, that she in her mind,

where I'm like, she looks like the villain now. But I'm like, in her mind, she thinks she's changing the modeling industry, opening it up for people that don't just look like a cookie cutter, you know, typical... It was the acting industry, too. I was told by an agent one time, I'll sign you, but if you can lose X amount of weight, and then we were, like, leaving.

He's like, I'd offer to get you ice cream right now, but, like... You know what I mean? How old were you? 17 or 18? No, I was 15, 16, living in New York, and I was considered

plus size, and I was size four, maybe, and I would go into all these castings and stuff and they'd be like, you're too big for us. And I am 16 years old being like, I'm 100 and like 18 pounds. What do you mean? 5-9.

Well, I mean, I think it's... That's crazy. I don't know. I think the importance of this documentary is just like, it was reality TV. And I think reality TV now is a little bit more structured and a little bit more like elevated, constructed reality.

But when you have something like America's Next Top Model, obviously it's a competition show, but the reality of that show is the way you perceived these women. So it's like, I think it's important to like look at that and see that and clock it because it's honestly, yeah, it's different now. It's quieter. Like, it's the same.

Women still are like in people in the modeling industry, like bodies and weight are still discussed in such a toxic way that's just a little bit different. So I think having these conversations because of a documentary like this is like very important. And I think it just like brings it to light of just being like, all right. I think the difference between then and now is that like they didn't have a formula for reality TV, right? So it's like in their minds, they think they're making a documentary, like whether it's being broken up in episodes, but we're showing you exactly how it is. No storylines, no whatever. I thought it was really interesting in the documentary when they said that all the regulations

started to change after the Super Bowl with Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake that. It was like, now we have to be more careful about what we're showing, which I think is when we started getting into like, more Kardashians and more like story line driven reality TV shows versus just like ensemble versus world life competition exactly yeah the following it like a documentary was definitely I think a bit of an excuse to get away with some things I think probably deep down they were creating a documentary in real time I mean a documentary is like something happens and we go back and explore like this show if there's a documentary about America's next top model they were just like, we're going to follow these people's lives and we'll invoke kind of this

documentary mindset anytime we need across a boundary or a line that we maybe shouldn't and expose these very young, impressionable people who feel like they're shooting for the stars and chasing a dream. And then all of a sudden you have these people being putting these very vulnerable situations and potential dangerous situations that, you know, can really affect their mental health for potentially the rest of our lives. And at the end of the day, like, none of this helped any of these women with the modeling career. Like, I mean, you hear Danny talk about, like, I was signed to this agency and they would not book me. They would not let me go to castings because I was seen as a reality TV star and not as a model. And like, that is the, uh, the curse of a reality TV star,

regardless of it's America's next top model or the bachelor is the incredible access you get and the zero credibility I talk about. Well, they didn't even give her the access. They just, they wouldn't even let her go. No, they had access to, like they're on TV. They're working with Tyra Banks. They're working with these very influential personalities. They're being signed to agencies. But the credibility they'll act is the fact that, oh, you're on a reality TV star. You're only here because of X, Y, or Z, or you're just a distraction because, like, you know, because of the TV experience. But, yeah, it certainly didn't match these women's expectations of what they were going to get coming out of that show. I do think that that's changing now. I mean, you're seeing that with like a Landria from

Love Island and Page to Sorbo. Like that is something that that for, I think good, like, it's good that it's changing. Yeah. I mean, now, finally in 2026, you know, somehow how many decades later you're, you are seeing reality TV stars being treated like stars. But it's been an evolution for sure. We will certainly get into more of this documentary as it unfolds and as you watch and we'll get hopefully more personalities from this documentary. But up next, it's time to dive into some Love is Blind season 10. We do have Kevin coming up shortly. But how are you all enjoying this season?

So good. I say it every time. Like, I'm not a big love show person, but love is blind. It's like bringing real people into these pods and then seeing how they interact. Tyler going redo replays in my head. Now she should. I mean, these are pressure cooked. environments. I wish they would show more of these redoes more often. Yeah. Yeah. I'm personally,

like, the show lights up for me once they leave the pods. Same. Yeah. Then I, you know, it's too many people in the pods for me to really keep track of or like, get to know. And it's a lot of, like, the same conversations you're watching with just like different people, because obviously they want to give their story to everyone they're dating. But it does seem more like this season. For example, I know Emma, Emma's getting critiqued or criticized a lot for like, you know, telling her story over and over. But like, they have to do that with all these dates. It's just why is, why are they choosing to show that? That's in the edit.

Yeah, that's not. That's in the edit. Like, of course you're going to. You want Emma to tell everyone. Every single day she's going to go on. She's going to tell that story. It's not like she's telling the same story to the same person over and over again. Like, these are different relationships.

I like Emma a lot, though. I will say. I've never been the biggest fan of like, oh, my number one went home. So now I'm going to immediately go to my number two. But I do think that the way that she did it was good. Like, she just kept herself open. And she was kind of like, she didn't immediately go to her number two and say, oh, I'm, let's get married. Like, she just kind of went in with an open mind and was like, I'm going to give this guy more of a chance than I was giving him before. What do you guys think of Kevin in his love triangle? Girl.

I know. He fumbled it. Yeah. I mean, he just... Two baddies, too. Yeah, and he gives interesting insight in the interview that we do with him, but he, I don't understand. I still don't really understand.

What don't you understand? I just, I think that he, I think that his biggest problem is that he said too much of what he was thinking out loud. Maybe so, but like, think we forget that when we're watching it, we get to see everyone. He hasn't seen any of them. and I don't know how you guys would be in the pods, but with the pressure of a marriage around the corner and the inability to like see what they look like

would definitely fuck with me. But also, didn't he not say like, I'm not here to find a girlfriend or something? I'm here to find a best friend. And it was like, he did say something like that. Yeah,

but that is like bad choice of words. It was. I think he was trying to say, I'm not just looking for a girlfriend. I'm looking for like a real connection or like a meaningful relationship. A wife? Sure. Yes. I mean... I don't think that he was doing this on purpose, but he was just driving them crazy.

Like the Tyler thing where he asked her to be his girlfriend. She went to get some chips and guac. She comes back and all of a sudden he's telling her about how much he loves Kia. No, Leah's so right, because he said almost too much because then he started the craziness in like the lobby for the girls because now they're hearing, wait, he told me that actually he wants me, but not you. But now he's saying that he wants you, not me. I do love that Kia and Tyler remained best friends. and never let this get in between the two of them. But I do think that he just like, he didn't need to tell Tyler so much of how he was feeling for Kia and vice versa.

It was like, keep the relationship here between me and you. Kia and Tyler did the right thing when they were like, no, like, choose me or say it now. And then Kia when she was like, no, you're not materna. Yeah, I'm not your therapist. Like, I don't need to hear about your other relationships. Well, let's hear it from the man himself.

Kevin joins us up next to talk about his whole experience. And I think we'll break down the rest of the Love is Blind episodes through six. Kevin, welcome to the show. Hey, how's it going, everybody? We're doing great. How are you doing, more importantly? I'm doing pretty good. Okay.

It's been one hell of a week, but it's been a good week, though. Well, talk to us about that. What is, you know, I'm always fascinated with people who go on these shows. I did a love competition show. And people are often like, you know, you signed up for. And then it's always like, no, you know, no one really knows. until they do it. So I am curious to start things. Going into this experience, what was your expectation? And then once you got to go through this experience, what was the reality of that

expectation? My expectations really was going into it, just testing me, seeing if that is, I could truly fall in love with someone without ever seeing them and develop those deep feelings and connections with someone. I think going into it and actually being in just like, wow, I can't believe I'm actually really able to, you know, connect with someone without ever seen them in. With that experience, I think going through it, it was just like eye-opening for me, honestly. It really changed my perspective on just dating in general. In what way? Honestly, just being able to be more in depth with your feelings and emotions, man.

Like, you know, us in society, like, we're so, most of the time we meet people who's out either drinking at a bar at wherever, wherever you're at. out with your social events and stuff. And so it made it to be like, man, I need to definitely have to be more intentional and honestly just figure out what you really want out of your partner and moving forward. So it definitely opened my eyes at times. I'm curious, what was, you know, at your comfort level, I don't, you know, don't need to share too many details, certainly no names or anything like that. But what was your dating history prior to going on love as blind?

And did you have a, you know, a specific experience? I guess, that maybe affected you in a way that made you more open to this kind of crazy social experiment? No, not really an experience that made me more open to it. I'll say, like, really dating industry, it was just very, very surface level. Like, it was very hard to, you know, get people to open up and really express themselves of what they want out of their future, what they require. It was just very, hey, you're attracted, I'm attractive, going through days, rapid, good time, vibe. It's just, it's almost like the cycle effect. Like you're just stuck in, stuck in the dryer.

You're just trying to get the get out. So, yeah. So really that. That was really, honestly, my main experience. There was a moment you were talking to Tyler in the pods. And you were really trying to this be honest with Tyler. And she was quickly getting frustrated. And then like, she got up and walked away. And I forgot what it's specifically what you said. But you're like, I'm just trying to tell you how I'm feeling. What did that experience teach you a, about yourself. And I guess could you just elaborate on how you felt in that moment and what you were trying to do?

In that moment, I was trying to put my words together to let her know that, you know, I'm going through this whole experience and I do have connections with another woman in this experiment. What I did poorly, though, is I wasn't putting the words together appropriately, honestly. I should have been more direct and just, you know, let her know in that moment. And I didn't give her that reassurance. And so looking back on that, that just was tough. And she had every right to, you know, have that reaction. I mean, if I was on the other side and I heard that, I wouldn't feel comfortable either.

I didn't do a good job of getting to her of that reassurance. So learning about myself and, you know, going from how I was going in the pods, talking through those feelings and things of that, it was hard. for me to express that because I had deep feelings for her at this very moment. And I was just like, damn, I don't want to break your heart. I don't want to let you down.

And so that's where the struggle was coming because I was torn. But at the same time, I'm not going to sit up here and lie and not be honest. Like, I'm never, you know, I'm going to come in and be transparent all the time. That was my main goal. And dating in general, I think that's something we all struggle with, that balance between being honest

and direct, knowing that the conversation we want to have might be received in a way that might hurt their feelings. And then sometimes in dating, it's that lack of directness that ends up hurting their feelings more because they will kind of fill in the gaps of the things that we're not saying and always like assume the worst type of thing. I'm curious, if you were to go back to that conversation in this moment, what would you have wanted to say to Tyler? I really just let her know, like, hey, I have strong, strong feelings for you. I'm loving the direction and things were going.

But I'm also, I do have feelings for Kia. And that's, that was really the main voice. It wasn't like, oh, now I have more or anything like that. I was just wanted to be honest and transparent and what was going on through my mind at that moment. So things ended, obviously, with you leaving single. And, uh, sorry. No, it's not.

It's, it all. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. You know, Kia had some very kind of pointed things to say, specifically that you weren't ready for marriage. Do you feel like that was fair criticism for Kia? I look at it this way.

Going into the experiment and, you know, dating and going through everything, I came in full on, hey, I'm ready for marriage. I'm ready to find my wife. But going through the experience, I also found out like, hey, we're not always going to be perfect. Nobody's going to be gung-ho ready to do everything. So her criticism of that, sure. I mean, I think in that moment there was definitely things I could have worked on

and improve as a man. but I do still feel like I'm ready for marriage. But just in that moment with her, I probably wasn't the right guy in that moment for her. A lot of the audience watching it, I think we're a little confused by why you asked Tyler to be your girlfriend while you still had feelings for Kia and we're kind of still pursuing that.

What was your reasoning for asking Tyler to be your girlfriend in that moment? In that moment, so that was the day before we were our proposal day going into it. And so leading up to that, I really was going back and forth, you know, trying to decide. And with Tyler, like, we had such a dope connection in that time. And I was like, let's just do this. Let's actually see if we can, you know, move forward and figure out things. And I wanted, but I wanted to have a last conversation with her because we did need to address and, you know, talk through a few things.

The only issue is that the timing, the timing was a little bit messed up. And that's one mistake that I do regret is just how that played out as far as for that timing. She made an excellent point. You know, I didn't really get a chance to, you know, have that conversation with Kia going into that moment. So how it played out, I mean, I really was just expressing to Kia, like how much of an amazing woman she was. But also made it very clear that, hey, like, I was going to be. into telling her like, hey, yesterday I did go ahead and let Tyler know that I would like to move forward and see where things could lead. But of course, how it played, how you guys seen it,

I was, you know, I got cut off and she wanted to explain to me of things I needed to work on and things of that nature. And so I think for me, that was important to let her know, like, she was so amazing, you're nobody's second choice. And I didn't want her to feel that way. I didn't want her to ever see that way. And the way that she led that was beautiful. I mean, I was really appreciated of how, you know, she opened up to me and really just, you know, gave me that closure in that moment. So I'm really appreciative for that. Did you keep the watch and has it helped you stay in check? I did.

I did keep the watch. Okay. And absolutely. I think about it all the time. I mean, both of them, they really taught me a ton about myself. And, yes, I definitely check that watch all the time. But yeah, it's right at home there on my dresser. Tyler would have, you would have proposed to her?

Yeah, I think I would have. Absolutely. You think you would have proposed to Tyler over Kia if Tyler had stayed? Yeah, absolutely. But at the same time, though, I completely understand why she didn't stay. Because I did a shit poor job of giving her the reassurance that she needed to show up that day. And so I understand where I came from in that point of I needed to, I just need to be better as far as communicating those. feelings with her, making her feel secure. Like, going back and forth for that, I should have been

gone cold like, okay, this is what, this is what we're doing now. But I didn't give that to her. And she did not want to chance that. And I don't blame her at all for that. Was there any part of you that wanted to fight for a relationship with Tyler after you left the pods? After I left the pods, I really, honestly, it was a lot of self-reflection. I'll be honest. It was really of like, okay, if I ever, you know, if that happens where I meet an amazing woman, I got to make sure that I'm being direct and having my point and being able to communicate my feelings and thoughts. Like, it's tough. Like, it's hard, especially, like you said, as a man.

Like, we are not always the best at that. Sometimes we shut down. You get quiet. Like, it's okay to, you know, put your heart on the line. And so for me, it was more so mainly just self-reflection. Watching it back, is there one thing that you feel like you should have done differently? Absolutely. I feel that I should have, I shouldn't have had both of those connections going into Engagement Day. I really, we should have figured that out probably earlier. But at the same time,

that's not the experiment. So I'm going through the experiment and trying to see it out as whole and let it play out as well because, you know, I really, really did start. develop in strong feelings for Kia as well. So I, so, but looking back, that's, that's really probably what I should have done. When Tyler left and you had that final conversation with Kia, if she had been willing to, would you have proposed to her? In that moment, no. No.

No. So you were, you were ready to go home after Tyler left? Yes. I think really that conversation that I was having with Kia was more so just like closure. of just everything that we've been through through this experiment. And I just really wanted to just let them know how thankful I was for her to come into my life. She really helped me a ton. Like we shared a moment there.

She was expressing just things that she's lost in her life and talking about her father. And like I think honestly, like the last time I've like cried was in the pause with Kia. Like that was the last time I actually cried in real life. And so I just really wanted her to know like how special she was. And yeah, just had that closure. But to a point, I had already like made that decision and there's no way I was just going to be like, okay, Ty was going home. Let's just go see.

No, I wasn't doing that. It seems like Kea, despite, you know, maybe having stronger feelings for Tyler at the end of it, touched you and you enjoy your time with her and you probably really valued that time. That all being said, is there any part of you after you left that wish you would have just solely focused on your connection with Tyler rather than kind of getting you get yourself into a little bit of a love triangle no actually i don't have any regrets about that all because that wasn't really what the experiment was about uh like you never know like me and kea like we honestly we really

didn't get to that type of connection where it got really mangling and confused in my head so like maybe like day six day seven like it was pretty late on into the process and so um yeah because we the way did they do it, you can eliminate people as you're having your connection move on and you solely just have those days with those people. But I was, you know, giving the experiment as fair shot and, you know, putting everything out there. So I wanted to, you know, do right. So no, I don't, and to answer your question, I don't have any regrets in regards with that. Are you still in love with Tyler? We, we haven't talked in a while. I'll be honest. And I mean, she, she's an amazing woman. I mean, but I can't say I'm in love with her now. It's just,

It's been a little bit of a time in time gap. Yeah, but I mean, man, she, man, she's really, she's truly one of one and one. She's amazing. She's amazing. What was it like for you? I don't know when you learned about their physical appearances, you know, because, you know, you're behind the pod. And so, you know, obviously now we all get to see what you all look like, you know, as viewers. What was it like for you to learn about what both of these women looked like and how did you process that?

First reaction was, who, wow. They're both hot. I was fucked that up. Like, they're both beautiful. Like, oh, my God. And I was looking up like, oh, shit. No, I'm so serious. Like, I'm, they're both, like, just drop dead, gorgeous queens.

Like, it was crazy. So to see that, I was like, oh, wow, okay. It's always fascinating because, like, you know, what I love about the show, they really own the fact that this is an experiment. You know, in 2026, with dating apps being what they are, I think a lot of people, quite honestly, struggle with too many, the feeling of having too many choices. You know, you're on these dating apps.

You've got five, 10 matches, whatever it is. And I feel like that gets very confusing for people. What will you take from this experience and what will you kind of leave behind and be like that was just specific to that social experiment? Yeah. I think for me, dating, well, the main thing, that I took away from the experiment is being able to communicate and being able to express your feeling like it's okay to be vulnerable. I think a lot of times we just shut down and just like, I don't want them to

know that. Like, we didn't have a choice in this moment because I'm talking to a wall, you know? So it's just like, the only way I can be able to get to know you is to really get to know you. And as the dates, the days went on, they got longer and longer and longer. The dates got longer. And so you just finding out different things about your partner and different things that you want them to know about you and vice versa. So going into dating, like now and the future, I'm not going to shy away from that. It's not just going to be, hey, you're a good looking girl, you're attractive, I'm attractive, let's be attractive together and see what happens. This is like, let's actually find out what makes you cry and I, what makes you sad, what makes you stare, what are some things

that actually bring you joy and peace? Like, what are some things you need from me and I need from you in order for us to be comfortable together and relationships are a roller coaster. They go up and down. But that is the biggest thing that I learned there, you know, going through the experiment. What is advice you would give to anyone out there listening who are out there on the apps, they're dating,

and they come to you and say, hey, Kevin, you went through Love is Blind, you were caught up in a love triangle. It didn't work out. Give me some advice on how I should handle having some feelings about two different people. Follow your heart, man, and trust your gut. Like, a lot of times,

times us, man, like, we know, like, we know who we like more than the other. Like, and we know typically, it's, it's almost a matter of like, you don't want to lose someone over here. And, like you said, you have so many options. Like, oh, well, she does this differently. And she, you know, you start comparing and contrast. And it's just like, no, if you really, really fall in love with someone, put your foot down, let them know, hey, this is how I'm feeling. This is, this is what I need from you. And I would love to, you know, get these things back from you as well and really just move forward. It doesn't have to be, oh, we get so distracted because like you said, we have so many options. You got social media, you got dating apps,

you got everything. It's just like some Rolodex at that point. So don't do that. If you really, if you really have those feelings for someone, put your foot down, let them know. I know we have seven couples now who have gone on their retreats. Did you watch episode six? I actually did. I actually did not. You did it. You did it. Watch episode six. Okay. Alex and Brittany have a conversation about how they're not necessarily attracted to their partners. What's your opinion on that? Do you feel like once the engagements happen, like that should be where you lock things off? Or do you kind of feel like the experiment continues in a way? And like, they're all still

fair game to kind of continue to talk to each other. Because I know also Brie was interested in like continuing to talk to her ex. So I'm just curious to know your opinion on like moving forward into. the next phase of the experiment, is it still kind of open? That's a good question. I don't necessarily, because, of course, I didn't get to that point. But, I mean, what I will say is, me personally, like, I hate, like, lying and not being truthful and being upfront with people and just telling them that. So, I mean, that's a, if that's something that happens and is brought up in conversation,

I mean, I would bring it up and bring it up to my partner. and just kind of talked through it. But to answer your question as far as, like, is it fair game or anything? Like, I don't, I wouldn't say that necessarily. I just think that it's okay, but it's okay to have honest conversations and be real. I mean, we did all this in a few weeks

and we're just now seeing each other for the first time. It's, it's okay to express, you know, how you too. Is love blind for you, Kevin? In that moment, yeah, it was. For me, I came in, even in my interview, I came in a little bit skeptical. Like, there's no way you can, this is too fast to really develop those types of feelings for someone. But man, the way did they had it set up and going through the experiment, you definitely can't fall in love about it if you're seeing someone. It's just a matter of, you know, the next part.

And fortunately, my journey didn't get to that next, next part. How's your mom doing? And what does she think of the show? My mom's doing well. She's doing good. She was getting a laugh at, you know, scenes like, you talk about me on national television. That's sweet. I mean, yeah, well, I got to like open up and talk about my life.

Like, this is real shit. This is my life. So, but she was proud of me. She never really seen me in that type of light before of, you know, opening up and expressing my feelings and shit. So, like, really, like, my mom has never really seen that. Brought a few girlfriends around to my mom. Like, you got to be super special to me, or so. But she was proud of me, though.

So that's all I ever care about is, like, the people that love and care about me. There you go. Jordan's chocolate chip cookies. Were they that special or were they just, like, another chocolate chip cookie? That boy, Jordan can throw down, man. I'm telling you. Let's go. He gets to it.

I'm like, we coming in in the morning. He's already got the breakfast going. Like, man. Was he one of your closest friends there? Oh, man. Yeah, me and Jordan's cool, man. He's, uh, I like, I like people who just have very just down the earth. I'm just one of the guys. As the end of the day, we're in Ohio. I'm in the Midwest. Like, it's fun. Don't get me wrong.

But at the end of the day, like we like sports, we drink beer. We play darts. We shoot pool. We just, it's just one of those. It's not nothing spectacular. So if anybody like that is right on my alley. So yeah. I'm actually curious, Kevin, um, the fact that you haven't finished watching all the episodes. Um, why? I'm curious. I'm actually really intrigued by the. that because I think most people in your shoes would, you know, as soon as it drops, watch all six episodes. But I, I'm, why have you decided not to? I just stopped after my journey ended it. You watched his part. Yeah. This isn't about me anymore. I don't care. That's, that's real. I watch all of it up into six, but you got like, we were there.

Like, each episode was an hour. I was just kind of tired. I was like, I'm not about. I just, I just, I just, I just haven't gotten the chance to me, and I was kind of beat. Where there are any of what you watched, the connections we got to see, what has surprised you the most versus like what you experienced with your castmate, specifically, the men that you, you know, interact with. I'm sure they, you know, came back from the pods, downloaded their feelings. You know, you guys all talked about things. What have been some of the more surprising things now that you got to see things on the other side? It seemed like a lot of, like a lot of my guys, they got locked in pretty early. And they knew, like, exactly the one.

And meanwhile, I'm over here going back and forth with trying to figure out, you know, my feelings and where my heart's at. So I think really that, that was probably the biggest surprise. I wasn't going in expecting that to happen to me, to be honest. Of the episodes you've seen and of the couples that we know of now, who are you, is there anyone your root, really rooting for? I really love my man Vic, Christine. I love their connection. Like, it's, it's so awesome.

He was gone home from beginning. And I love the fact that they were able to just bond over faith. Because that's one thing I struggle with is being in depth of my faith and making sure I'm praying every day. And Vic was really, he really opened my eyes to just like wake up in the morning, get to the gym, say, you know, prayers, read the Bible in the morning. I really love where he was coming out from that. And so I was really happy for that he found somebody that is on a lot of those same pages with him. Kevin, one more question. If you were to run into Tyler, what is one question you would want to ask her?

What could have I done differently to have you, you know, show up that day? Okay. All right. Great question. You know, if I could tell her anything, I was just one that are like, I'm proud of her for being able to put her heart on the line like that, be vulnerable like that with me, express those feelings and she's she's truly one of one and amazing. So I love that. Kevin, we really appreciate it taking the time. It's been a really a bit of pleasure getting to know you and watching you on this screen. You seem like a really stand-up guy and

wishing you nothing but the best going forward. And again, thank you for taking the time. Oh, absolutely. I appreciate it. Thank you guys so much for having them. All right. Take care, buddy. Good luck. Absolutely. You guys take care. Take care. Bye-bye. I mean, I'm even more confused now. Okay. Here's my thing with Kevin it's like and I this is relatable to me sometimes it's like you just you shouldn't say things you know it's like he was just talking too much and he was saying too many things in the we want our men to be more open and communicate more but only if maybe just don't communicate the same thing that you said to someone else hey listen guy I mean most of us we're not you know we haven't

been doing this for a long time you know being vulnerable well Nick okay it would be like this it would be like this, right? You're the, you're the bachelor. And every time you talk to this one woman, you're talking about another woman. It's like, no, just keep our relationship, the two of us. Like, it doesn't need to always be. Like, that's for your journal, not for the girl you're talking to. To next point, though, I do think, like, Kevin was trying to be open and, like, transparent because it is such a condensed process. I just think that it came off, like, he was being a little too much. And he doesn't want to lead them on and he doesn't want to, like, I hear it. No, I hear that. But even in our interview with him when he said, like, he, it was Tyler. Like, he did choose Tyler. But for some reason, he kept Kia around still.

It was frustrated. Well, I mean, not frustrating. Interesting to hear him say that. And I felt frustrated for him. But I think that's his revisionist history. We now know that like he has got to see what they look like. Probably at least a year has gone by. So I'm not saying he's not being honest about his feelings towards Tyler.

But like maybe there's some revisionist history, you know, going on from how he felt in the moment in the pods versus how he remembers how he felt today. I will say he did handle himself. I think very well compared to what I think other men would have responded when Kea was like, you need to grow up, you're not ready for marriage. I think most men probably would have taken a lot of offense to that and like snap back. But I think he handled it so well being like, you're right. Okay. I will.

He did. And he kept the watch. He got some direct feedback from both those ladies. And he took it like a champ. He was just like kind of like, thank you for sharing. and I'll look into that. He kind of acknowledged it, which to Nally's point is,

that's tough to hear. Someone like coming for what you could perceive as like character or maturity. And he handled it with a lot of grace. Yeah. It's clear that he really respected both of these women and loved them both. And I mean,

Nick, to your point about revisionist history, though, like when he did say in our interview that he was not going to propose to Kia, I don't know if I believe that. because to me it felt like he was about to propose to her. And if she hadn't left in that moment, he would have. I think you do have to be careful with editing, you know, and how these shows are made, you know. So I think they could easily make one moment feel more intense than it was for the sake of storytelling.

Well, he was like, I don't want you to feel like you're my second option. And she's like, I never felt like that. But also, like, can you shut up for a second and let me talk? Because I don't even want to be with you. But also, he was her second option because he just. told us in his interview that he was going to pick Tyler and that if he could do it all over again, he would have picked up like, yeah, sure, but I'm just saying in reality, right, like him and Tyler could have broken up. Producers could be in his ear saying like, hey, your, your relationship

with Kia is pretty strong. He could have been like, yeah, but I don't know, like, I was pretty certain I was going to pick Tyler. And they could have easily said, I don't know if this happened, but like, I'm just role playing like realistic situations in reality TV. They could say, sure, but like we, we have seen people realize that their initial interest wasn't like the strongest one. So just if you're open to exploring that, like maybe give it a shot. Then he goes into a pod with Kia, tries to be honest with her about his feelings and says something like, hey, you know, if we do move forward and explore this, I don't want you to feel like my second option and things like that and yada, yada, yada. He mentally might not be remotely close to like proposing to her,

but could still be like exploring that connection. And then through editing, they could drastically you know, change the context and make it seem like he's about to propose. Like, I'm just saying it's quite easy. Well, we do have six couples

who go to Caba, Mexico and are one couple who gets sent to Malibu. They're like, you are no way going to be dramatic at all and you're way to, you're too emotionally mature people.

So like, we're just going to be your own vacation. There was a reason. They came out, they told them. They said it was budget, but I was like, people aren't believing that.

I also, Christina Victor, it's like, I wanted to watch that wholesome. Yes, I did. Amongst the chaos and drama. But they have previews. They have the iPhone. Yeah, we see them like, we're going to, we went to the gym in the sauna, and now we're going to order pizza. To be honest, it's giving YouTube vlogger. I'm here for it.

He said new career. Yeah. I don't know why the fans are so precious about it, but they're not a dramatic couple. And it makes a lot of sense. But neither are some of these others. I mean, I guess, I don't know. the preview for the next couple episodes is giving nobody gets married. Oh, no?

I don't know. I think they have to this season. How do you guys think that Alex's soccer team is feeling right now? I hope they apologized. They really let him down. Well, maybe. I mean, I am curious about the other side of that story. Me too.

I think this is the telltale sign of if any man can only say you're dangerous, you're dangerous, you're dangerous, you're trouble, you're trouble. And she's like, I'm literally just smiling. Like, oh, I don't know. Like, maybe he's not the guy for you. I don't know. Or the guy for anybody. Alex seems like one of these people, and I'm sure he's fine.

And, you know, but the show is love is blind. We keep hearing how attractive he is. I don't think love is blind for him. I know it's not. But he's like, he's constantly asking himself questions. It's like, you know, am I attracted to? to other people. I don't know, maybe I could be, but like, you know, it's like he's always convincing himself. And he even kind of said, like, am I trying to convince myself to,

I, it's just the way he talks is so like, you know, he's very much unsure about how he's feeling, but doesn't want to acknowledge that. And it's constantly, you hear his, like, his inner voice talk out loud. Yeah. I'm also unsure of what his type is because he was so attracted to Ashley when he saw her in the reveal and he's so into her eyes and the way that she looks at him and now all of a sudden he's into brunette's brown eyes i don't think he's into ashley at all no he's he's clearly not and that conversation between alex and brittany in my opinion it's like i know that brittany and her confessional afterwards was like oh i'm worried for ashley but i mean she essentially told alics that alics was her type to alex she was like oh tall dark handsome athletic

but also brittany being like have you told ashley that she's not your type. And he's like, yeah, I mean, I could probably like tell her again. And then they go back to the room and she's like, how were you any like flirty conversations? He's like, no. Was I flirty? I don't know. I mean, maybe, but like, I don't think so. They probably might have perceived it like that. But I don't, that's not how I, you know, I just care about people. And it's like, you could have been like in that moment. You know, I had a conversation with Brittany and I learned that maybe you're not my type. Maybe Alex will realize this when he finds someone he loves as much as I love my wife and when you're married and just completely emotionally locked into your relationship,

I'm definitely not flirty, period. I'm unapproachable. They're engaged. They're engaged now. Like, that's why I ask Kevin that question. I'm like, I think a lot of younger people, even people in relationships where it's like, I'm just being nice. I'm not being flirty. I'm just being nice. I'm just, I'm nice. I'm a nice person. You might find it flirty, but I'm just being nice. I think for a lot of people who kind of grew up attractive and always got a lot of attention are just, yeah, they're natural flirts because like that's kind of the energy people give them. But I think eventually, you know, when you're in a relationship that you're really committed to, you realize the difference between being nice and flirty or being polite and just like talking about

not being attracted to a partner to another woman is not being friendly. I feel like the conversation between Brittany and Devante was so sad. Yeah. Even the hicky conversation where she's like, yeah, I told him I'd give him a hickie and he's like, yeah, I don't want one. Whoa. Yeah, it's one of those conversations where it's like there's really nowhere to go from there because you just, you're arguing with a wall essentially. Like you're saying how you feel and it's just everything is, you know what I mean? Like, well, I just don't work that way.

I just can't give you that. That's just not who I am. And it's like, where do you go from there? It's like, well, then we just don't match. We just don't match. You want me to touch you 24-7. You want me, like, I can't touch you 24-7. I can't kiss you 24-7.

It's like, oh, boy. It's giving extreme introvert who went from this environment in the pods where he was in a room by himself, but he could talk to a person on the phone. And then that would break up and they would talk to other people. And now he's like living with one person. And he is like, can't handle it. It did kind of make me think of who is. that couple where there was, I think it was a principal that was on his phone a lot and she

wanted to be on his phone. Like that's what it kind of, to Nick's point where it was giving, like, I do think he's probably not into Brittany sadly, but like it's also giving like introvert. Like he just wants his space. He wants to be able to like reset. But then like in this experiment, it doesn't really look, right. Oh, there was one other thing. Um, Bree. Like what does she do? Why does she have to get to the bottom of her other connection? She's a little too. He's moved on. He's moved on. Eager. She just, she's eager. That's the word. She's too eager for it.

Not split to raising the flag. Yeah. But he's moved on. He's so happy with his fiance. Like, why are you needing to have this closure or needing to continue talking to this person who you had a strong connection with? Well, you know the answer, right? I mean, like, she regrets her decision and she doesn't want to say that.

And she is trying to find every other possible way, even to the point where she's kind of gaslighting the rest of her cast. Yeah. You know, in terms of like, why aren't you guys feeling about how I'm feeling? but I'm only feeling it because of this. Exactly. She's like, you guys are all crazy for not doing what I'm doing.

And it's like, no, we've moved on. We are in love. We love our partners. I'm not going to go talk to Emma because we broke up. Well, I have a question. Is she self-producing? Because she was the one that was like,

this is like boring. There's no depth there. Like, what are people doing? Like, is she trying to get the cast to be more drama? No, I think she just, I think she really is regretting her decision and she really wanted to have a chance

to talk to Chris without feeling or looking a certain way. And she wanted the protection of her cast to all explore these other connections in a way that didn't make her feel like she, you know, regretted her decision. Again, that's why I asked Kevin, I'm like, once you propose in the pods,

is that the end? Are you locked off? Are you fiancés? Because this whole ending of episode six felt to me between Alex and Britney's conversation and then the whole thing with Bree, I'm like it feels like they're all still kind of, oh, some of them are still open and to getting to know each other. That's specific for six people right there.

But I'm saying like they're all hanging out and doing these group things and it's like, oh, that's what Brittany looks like. Oh, that's what Chris looks like. And they're all like still like getting to know each other. And it's like are we blocked off or not. Compared to other seasons where it felt like they were couples bragging about how they're so strong with their couples. Now it's the couple's talking. Yeah, it almost Bree is making it feel like the experiments continuing. and like she still has the right,

or she still wants to get to know her other connection. I mean, I understand the context of love is blind, but I think something that's always kind of confused me about love is blind is that, is that that aspect isn't there? Because that kind of makes the show a lot more interesting to me of the possibility of like you're engaged, but obviously this engagement is a quote unquote engagement.

And there's still that wiggle room in there, which like there's a lot of tension in that that's just like really, interesting for that. I just wish she would have done it in a way that didn't include, you know, like criticizing her peers. Just be like, listen, I don't know about you guys, but like I had a lot of meaningful connections. And while I ended up with Connor, I'm feeling a certain way seeing Chris for the first time. And like, maybe you all are like good. But like, I guess I'm not. And I just feel the need to explore that as opposed to being like, you all are emotionally surface level. And I'm the only enlightened person here. She's kind of gaslighting everyone.

one. Yeah. How about Amber's reveal? Her pose behind the curtain? Oh my God. Oh my gosh.

You see her like practicing it? The internet said it took 10 seasons for someone to pose like this. I was laughing out loud and I was just like, yeah. You know what? Yes. Thank you. Yeah. It's a whole silhouette.

Yeah. Do a whole little like strike up pose, girl. I just want to know what the combo was. Diva your slang. Which is like producers being like you look this way. Did she see a little? the silhouette. Was she like, I'm going to give you options? That's what I want to know.

No, she, everything about her screams at, like, she came in with a plan. I do love them together also. I really like them. I enjoy their corkiness. I hope they get married. I'm really ruined for them. Yeah, there are a couple who I could see. Victor also.

Yeah. I got some nice ones. Yeah. Oh, but the previews for the next couple of episodes looked wild. I mean, Connor being like, get out. Get the fuck out. I think, I do think that it's going to get spicy and I'm interested to see what happens with Brittany and Alice.

because I actually don't think that's the end of that. But we'll see. We'll see. Alex and Brittany in that scene, they were both kind of like giving, I want to fuck you guys to each other. Yeah. And I mean,

I do think that Brittany is going to be a girl's girl in the sense of like she, I don't see her doing it without like having some sort of conversation with Ashley or like there being some sort of closure between Ashley and Alex first. I don't know, but I think that they are into each other. It felt like when she was like, and athletic at the end, kind of like if you haven't picked up on it yet, I'm into you.

Yeah. Well, okay, well, I'm manifesting a good rest of the love is blind. I'm also manifesting a really great rest of Beverly Hills, right? Beverly Hills is going to work. It never left for me, but it's so bad. I low-key, Amanda girl, you're saving the show. That's all I have to say. She's a moment.

She is kind of the only thing that is entertaining. Mm-hmm. No, everybody else is entertaining on that. I would, I don't even know what I would do to go on a trip to the Hamptons with Rachel Zoh. I'm saying. Erica Jane being like, where was my invite? Which I agree. Because I'm like, she is kind of part of that trio.

I should be in the Hamptons. It's like, where did she get removed? Yeah. The way she's like, I shouldn't be here. Well, if you miss the most recent episode of the Royal Housewives of Beverly Hills, here is your rapid recap. Rachel Zoe is so burnt out because she has not been to the Hamptons once this summer and girl does she need it. And thus a plot is born.

She's going to parent trap Kyle and Derive. in the Hamptons to fix their friendship. Before going, however, Doreet talks to Mo about P.K. Sutton is emotional about changing her last name to Brown, probably because she doesn't want to be associated with Charlie in that damn football. Amanda is planning a manifestation moment dinner when Doreet happens to be out of town, which is manifestation at work, mama hashtag girl boss. Bose is concerned about the ROI on Amanda's manifesting business model.

Erica is dating John. He's unshakable. Apparently, she's mad. She didn't get to go on the parent trap Hampton's trip, though, which, as she should, because Donna Karen is there. She's an old friend of Rachel. Back at the manifestation moment, Erica says she'll skim Amanda's book. Amanda opens up about manifesting being Malibu Barbie and how incredible it is that it worked.

Sutton manifests a reality check for Amanda by telling her she should know better than to pretend she didn't talk about Dorit and ending it with an ultimate flamer. You're a big girl. You're not a young spring chicken. Amanda does not accept this energy into her aura because she does not think she caused drama between Kyle and Derreet. She also gets sensitive about being called a wimp. is like, oh, honey, Rachel talks about how hard it is to be blonde and having a pathetic ex-husband. Doreet thinks she's making a lot of sense. Kyle, of course, can't relate because she's a brunette and Mo is still charming.

Anyway, manifesting a chaotic second half of the season. I'm really just here for what is the growing hate between Bose or Amanda. It's so awesome. Here's the thing about the two of them is that, like, of course, they're, like, two opposite sides of the spectrum of, like, just philosophies of success and philosophy. of life. Boz is so much like, I work very hard. I like, like active goals spreadsheet diva. You know what I mean? Like she, yeah, she is type A. She is like managing money. She understands business. And then the worst kind of person for someone like that to interact with is someone that was like, it's all vibes. And I did it. And I know Bose is just like, what the fuck? Them sitting down at that

table being like, okay, so we're going to start off with writing one of of a prompt and Boz's like, yeah, so she actually didn't want to read here. She said, girl, we're not doing that. She said, you didn't manifest it. You just didn't invite her. That might have been Boz's best moments so far. Literally. No, I think it was her being like, you have to look this up when she started to Google a cost it. The money queen, what is that called? Dormat. Oh my God. That's a crazy doormat. And then I'm going, it's crooked. You know what? I think Amanda is.

I think the vibes manifest Girlies make so much money and they just make things happen. I'm a fan. Speaking of my intruder syndrome, having a money queen dorm mat is like, please, come on in.

No, there's just stacks of cash inside. The queen is here too. But she manifests safety, so it's fine. Oh, no. She did change the gate from a picket fence to as set and called out. She's like, it was not.

on me, then I too had a house in Malibu. And I oversaw looking at dolphins. I'm like, you have to have some incredible eye to see dolphins from that view, babe. That baby laughs. It's like the thing when the girls get so mad at her for always just like her subtle flexing. And she has no idea. Is it subtle?

Yeah, I just wanted to be Malibu Barbee. You know why? I imagine, though, and I guess this is in some ways defending Amanda, but her whole business model is her story. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I've overcome. this. I've done that. This is what, you know, I was in a call, you know. And so she, she does, she literally probably doesn't know how not to like use her story is a way to motivate and

inspire those who are looking to be inspired by her. But it doesn't land with anyone who's like, yeah, I didn't ask you to inspire me. We're just having dinner. And Erica being like, can't wait to skim. I can see how like for Rachel Zoe, especially someone who's been working in this industry, or in her fashion industry for like years started at the bottom, up. And then same for Bose where it's like to hear somebody be like, you know, I saw, I played with my Barbie Malibu house and I just knew one day. And it's just like, that's a great. Amanda. But like, that's where I'm just like, I can see where like, why she gets under their skin. And then of course it's going to play out as if like these women are mean girls because they

aren't giving her a chance. But sometimes when you hear somebody talk in a way that you just can't comprehend, you just, you know, your brain just shuts off. It's just like, I just, I can't, I can't vibe with this. Yeah. And I think Amanda's like biggest issue is not her man manifestation powers, right? I think it's the fact that she'll say, it's her completely not understanding that she is on a completely different wavelength than everyone else and they're not necessarily going to receive that. She's living her practice. It's a law of attraction. She's literally saying, like, I want this, I have this and that's how she manifests. But for law of attraction, you have to be reciprocal of that. You have to be reciprocal of the other energy. It's like she's not reciprocal of

anyone else's energy. And you can't manifest changing how housewives conversations go down. Like, You know what I mean? If you manifested yourself on this show, then you had to have known that these women aren't going to be like, listen the way that you're speaking to me. I don't really agree with it. They're like, bitch, I don't understand you. She needs to lean in and go, I'm manifesting you're not talking to me anymore. Or I manifesting her done speaking. Girl, go nuclear on them.

I know you can. That's what I kind of want to see. But I'm like at the same time, I'm like, do I? I just don't know. I just don't know. I just don't know if it's going to fit. I want to see what she would look like actively mean instead of a little petty. Who here felt like Doreet was lying about PK?

And my hands up. Yeah, my hands up. I'm sure that Mo has PKs back. But the mo I saw was a very kind of the pragmatic Mo. I saw Business Mo. Yeah. You know, who was really gently trying to like check Doreet. And she, you know, and it's funny, it seemed like a big projection because Doreet's

excuse was like Mo came in with a script kind of came in with a playbook and that's kind of how it came across for Dorit which is like I'm just going to stay on script I have this narrative and he's just like I get it right you can certainly fake a text right here or there but I don't think P.K. has it in him to fake what came across as Mo explained is like a whole like days a whole chat And Doreet's like interview moment. She's like, P.K's really good at isolating text messages and whatever. And it's like, well, Mo is saying that he gave him his phone and he scrolled through your text thread. That's not being like sent a screenshot or, you know, like that's him just reading y'all's texts.

And then for Doret to be like, well, let me go look. And it's, I think it would have been a little bit more fair had she been like, well, why don't you look? through my phone and you read our text messages. But she's like, let me look for that spreadsheet. I'm not finding it anywhere. See? It's just so messy. It's so messy.

I'm like, why are we having Mo come in here to play like in between when we always said Kyle doing it and Kyle's relationship struggle? You know, like, it's just too much. Mo should, is Mo pretty much a friend of at this point? He's a friend of on every single housewives. Yeah, he's the bravo friend of. He's the busiest working. He's like, Valley Persian style, Potomac. He's like, have you guys ever seen the movie?

dream scenario with Nicholas Cage? He's like, he keeps showing up in everyone's dreams and that's what Mo feels. I thought he was really charming in the scene because it seemed like he was really trying to help and really trying to keep it moving things forward. He's like, what can we agree on? Let's not focus what we can agree on and

things like that. But yeah, that wasn't the best scene for DeReed because Mo came across his very credible and unbiased. None of y'all raised your hands thinking that DeRite was lying. Well, because I feel like she has her experience and she's speaking from her experience. That being said, I think this whole

conversation should have not been on camera. Like, I feel like she probably has truth in what she's saying. And I think Kyle and Mariso are hearing it from PK's side. So like there can be two truths in this situation. There's a possibility that maybe is a text message. Maybe it was an email that she didn't check or something. And that's where I'm just like, I feel like that is her truth. Does it mean that it's the actual truth? No. But I mean, just to be clear, her truth is that P.K. is almost inaccessible to her. Doesn't want to see the kids.

Doesn't want to see, what's nothing to do with the kids is hiding all the money. It's like, I mean, not even it's like. I mean, everything she's saying is like

the worst possible version of like from a, you know, in a divorce standpoint, you know, and maybe it's all true. But again, it's interesting hearing Moe's perspective.

I don't think that Doret doesn't have any fault in this by any means either. But what I'm saying is that like, a conversation between P.K. Maricio is going to go completely different than a conversation between Doreet and P.K. Because obviously, they're separating. They have resentment and other things.

So it's like maybe one thing gets said and it's never going to be a productive conversation. Like she said last episode that they were at like a meeting and that they didn't even get to finances because they were bickering about whatever else for an hour. That's the part where it's like to me, it's like when you coming out of a divorce, everybody goes into kind of a survival mode. And I feel like they're both telling their people their experience in it. And like Doree did give him. Like she was saying he wanted to have every Thursday to Sunday every other week. I gave him that. But the money is what I'm worried about.

And then Maricio's thought back is, well, he's drinking wine. And it's like, well, that's like, like, this isn't beneficial. Well, no. She said that he was back drinking like, well, I have been out with him. And he's not, like, getting plastered and blackout. He's having, like, maybe a glass of wine here or maybe two. So like, like, maybe that's what she considers drinking. That's why, like, to me, I'm just like, this is a messy conversation for, like, TV in general.

Well, that's what I said, even, like, with last week's episode about Kai. that I was like, well, the advice that Kyle's giving Doreet about, like, you shouldn't be discussing this on the show is good advice. It just can't come from her for some reason. But I am just like at the end of the day to Justin's point, all of this, these like minor details that in Doreet's mind is venting or whatever. Like, you just don't know how this can be used against you because it's not a good look. Or just your kids watching back. I think it's just like a tough situation. I do appreciate really quickly Sutton sharing her experience with an annulment.

Like my mom's gone through an annulment. I don't think we see this on TV or hear about it that often, but it's a super complex process, especially because it's separate from the legal process, and like removing your name, especially if you've been raising that religion. Like, it's a very difficult thing. So for her to just share that is very interesting.

To Justin's point, obviously it's all about the religious aspect. And from the religious aspect, an annulment means this never existed. This never happened. I'm actually surprised he was granted an annulment. To your point, Justin, to have the religion you grew up on,

or just that's been important in your life at some level, say this didn't exist. It must be very, very difficult emotionally to deal with. And especially to Sutton's point, women in your 50s, a lot of transitional things going on at that point. You're an empty nester, not sharing the same names as your kids,

is no doubt very difficult. And I think, yeah, it was very endearing hearing her open up in such a vulnerable way about that topic. Yeah, especially if you're trying to like remarry because a lot of the times you can't remarry in the church if you have a previous marriage that wasn't an old. Yeah. So like whether her husband's trying to move on or whether she's trying to move on, like I just think like her calling her daughter to check with her to me was very powerful. Yeah.

So I've seen my mother do that. And I just think like her sharing that experience gives a lot of other women, I guess, representation. Yeah. I think Sutton is doing something really, really brave, honestly. you can kind of feel it within her energy this season a little bit too like the whole Sutton Brown. It just she feels like she can kind of let it go with the name change. And I think that's a very, very powerful thing for a woman to be able to do to kind of like take her.

And obviously like people have different feelings about like taking your husband's left's name, whether or not you want to do that. Like it's all, you know, it's whatever you want to do. But I think for her what I'm picking up on and maybe this is just projector in my opinion is like her. kind of like taking that power back within herself and like stepping into herself again in a way that she hasn't really been able to do before. And I just like love that for her. You know? Yeah. All right. Well, that will do it for today's episode. Thank you to our guest, Nigel Barker and Kevin from Love is Blind. Also, tomorrow we have an incredible going deeper with Rosanna Pansino.

Many of you already know who she is. She's the internet baker, cooker. She taught many of us how to cook, how to bake, and she is just an incredibly dynamic person with so many stories about how she got started on YouTube and some of her creators and peers throughout the time. I can't even go into how fascinating it was, but that is tomorrow's going deeper, and you are not going to want to miss that episode. Until then, have a good day.