The Watch - A Eulogy for ‘Tokyo Vice’ With Mina Kimes. Plus, the Case for ‘Presumed Innocent.’

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Chris makes the case for the new David E. Kelley show ‘Presumed Innocent,’ the pulpy courtroom drama the summer needs (1:10). Then he is joined by Mina Kimes to bid goodbye to ‘Tokyo Vice’ after it was canceled this week after two seasons. They talk about whether or not the show ended in a good place (11:06) and how it really came into its own in the second season (29:14). They end by talking about the comforting middleness of Apple TV+ shows and some of their favorites on the streamer (46:38). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Mina Kimes Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Chris Ryan. And I am an editor at the ringer.com. I'm here today with Kaya McMullen. Hello. I'm filling in for Andy as he battles 100 degree weather. Yeah. Nobody picks a vacation destination matched to the weather like Andy. He is currently in our great American Southwest,

experiencing the wonders of the natural world and the heat death of the universe. Kaya and I are here today, but we will be joined momentarily by Mina Kimes of ESPN and many ringer pods appeared on. I've been on the rewatchables with Mina. she's a buddy. You can check Mina out on the Mina Kimes show with Lenny. That's her podcast, but she's also on NFL live frequently and all over ESPN, around the horn, etc. And also watches a lot of television. And she watches probably more TV than me and Andy, which is awesome. We talked today about Tokyo Vice. So Tokyo Vice is one of my favorite shows

of the years, one of my favorite shows of the last couple of years. It just got canceled, which is a tough beat. But these things happen. And I talked to Mina a lot about whether we felt like this story was told in its entirety, and I think we did. It's still there for people to check out on Max. If you're looking for a crime show, you know, it's a constant barrage of new stuff and you feel like you've got to start something new every Friday. But like, please don't let Tokyo Vice slip by. It's really, really cool. Meena, I talked about its similarities to the wire and where it was kind of like expanding its aperture and looking at all these different facets of late 90s Japanese society, but also journalism and also, you know, business and real estate. It was

really, really cool. So if you've got like an itch to scratch with a crime show or just an amazing drama that's there for you. Kai, will you be checking out Tokyo Voice? Yeah, you guys sold me on it. There we go. So yeah, if I find the time between everything else, I will check it out. Let me add some more things to your to-do list. I just want to shout out that I watch Presumed Dinnocent, the first episode. It was real good. I'm excited for this one. I was telling you before we start recording, I really love like a nice pulpy courtroom drama over the summer. Mayor of Easttown filled that hole. Possibly coming back, a little bit of rumors about Mayor of Eachetown season two being kicked around the writer's room.

So that's pretty awesome. I would do anything to have Kate Winslet's Philadelphia accent back on my screen. Me too. And possibly back on the watch when she does do that. So Prune Dissant comes from David Kelly. Obviously, one of the most storied TV creators and especially instrumental. and this sort of recent run of Real Housewives of Prestige TV,

I'll call it, where it's like big little lies. I think he worked on the undoing. Like, he's really had his hand in a lot of different series. He did that one anatomy of a scandal, which I checked out a couple episodes. I didn't watch the whole one. But that's really, he has a niche and he fills it.

He does. And so now he's got his hands on the Scott Turrow property, presumed innocent. This is a 90s thriller with Harrison Ford and Bonnie Bedelia that was one of the, of like late 90s erotic mystery, a lot of erotic thrillers in Hollywood. It's got a big twist that goes without saying.

And that twist, I think by this point is pretty well known. And if it's not, I won't spoil it. But let me just say, this is one of these interesting IP things where you're remaking something that has a, like, a massive twist.

Most people who have awareness of this property know the twist. So now you're in this little bit of like a guessing game of like, so are they just going to do the same twist again? And if so, why am I watching a eight-hour version of this? Sure. Or are we taking away the twist and doing a different one or, you know, a different who done it? And if that's the case, how does that change and ripple across the story? Ultimately, I don't really care because what this is is what if David E. Kelly made the night of?

This is so many overqualified actors doing steamy, erotic, pulpy acting and cursing at each other in a district attorney's office or a state's attorney's office. It's basically split between the home life and work life of the main lawyer, this guy named Rusty Savage, who is played by Jake Jelenhall, who is swole out of his mind, clearly working on Roadhouse or about to work on Roadhouse. So they have to explain why the main character, who is a chief deputy prosecutor, is just also a bouncer in a Key West bar, essentially. And he swims a lot. So I'm going to start swimming and see if I get Jake Jillenhouse's body. Anyway, he's got this great life at home with Ruth Nego as his wife,

and they've got two kids, and they're practicing baseball. And then a murder happens of somebody in Rusty's office that it's clearly, obviously, revealed that he has had a romantic relationship with. His wife is aware of this romantic relationship. He takes on the case of this woman, Carolyn Pilemus, who's played by Renata Renzvi, I think it is, but the lead actress from the worst person in the world. So she doesn't have. Very, oh, is her role in this then mostly through flashbacks? It is, and I can tell you you're about to ask about the accent, maybe? I don't know, because when I went to Oslo over the last summer, everybody spoke flawless English.

I feel like they are trying to make her like deep Chicago. So it's set in Chicago, and I feel like she's trying to do the like thing where you're like this. I'll update you. Okay. Or you can tell me how you feel about it because I only watch the one. There's two episodes up. Anyway, this is a steamy pulpy. like perfect David E. Kelly vehicle mixed with a very knowing, detailed and lived in version of a legal thriller.

Okay. And so the interpersonal relationships between people in this district attorney's office, Bill Camp, who is in the night of as the main cop, is the outgoing state's attorney general, I believe. Peter Sarsgaard plays a up-and-coming attorney within the prosecutor's office who is paired with the new state. attorney who's just been elected. And there's a lot of like tension between these two factions. Rusty is on the bill camp side. And you can just tell this is going to be like a very granular, awesome detailed courtroom thriller. Okay. As well as like a sort of sexually charged like nervous breakdown show about like a guy who, you know, erotic satisfaction. Anyway, I thought it was really good. I know it's been getting mixed reviews. Maybe critics are basing that off of the entire run and it falls off a cliff. But I was, like you, I think I needed this. Yeah. Now, I was interesting.

I finished it and I thought my wife was going to be like, that ruled. And she was like, that was kind of dark and fucked up. Okay. So sometimes people want that like somewhat lighter version of the David E. Kelly thing. Right. It's not big little lies. It doesn't have as much interior decorating pornography as that show. But I would say that the houses are well appointed and interesting to look at. So yeah, I recommend presumed innocent. I did watch the third episode. of the Acolyte. I did not like it. It is a flashback episode. I would like to talk about it with Andy a little bit more deeply. I will say that I forgot somehow. I had memory hold the fact that Star Wars is the most toxic online discourse that we have. And I waded into it just to get a

couple of things explained to me. You participate. I did not participate. I just looked. What are you looking? Like Reddit? Twitter? Like reviews and like forums, I think, yeah, read it, read it. And it's just, it's just not something I care about enough to like, really, like, the origins of the force are not something that I, I'm interested in. So, I don't know. I think this was a tough one to get over. I'm curious to see whether the next episode is also a flashback and it relates to this third episode or whether this is actually like, I don't want to give too much away without talking with Andy about it. But I was very low on this. So I, I'm almost out. on it. I watched the first two episodes. My relationship with Star Wars is that my boyfriend is a big Star Wars person. And so if he really likes a Star Wars property, I'm happy to watch it with him. But if he's out, then I'm out. And is he out? He's leaning out, I think, and we'll see what happens. I've heard also, I've seen that this third episode is just not great. I was told that the third episode was the one. So that's always a little bit of a tough beat if the one is actually the one

you don't like. We're going to get into my conversation with Mina. Like I said, you can catch Mina on the Mina Times show with Lenny. You can see her on ESPN all the time. She pops up on ring her podcasts from time to time. She's on a show called Stick the Landing. And she's on a show called Stick the Landing. Talk about the leftovers, right? Yes. She's awesome. I hope you enjoy our conversation. It is spoilers for the entirety of Tokyo Vice. So this conversation, I would say, is more for people who have watched Tokyo Vice than it is for people who are Tokyo Vice Curious. But just know that

Meena and I talked about it for 40 minutes. So if you get a chance to watch the series, you have this to go back to. Meena and I also talked about Apple TV and the strange role it plays in our lives where we just can't quit it. And so presumed innocent comes up a little bit there and then I got her thoughts on Top Chef.

No spoilers for the most recent Top Chef's episode. It's just talking about the season in general. I hope you guys have a great weekend. Andy and I will be back on Monday to talk about House of the Dragon. We'll be talking about the boys, maybe some accolite, maybe some top chef detail. And just in case anybody doesn't know, on Tuesday at the L-R-R-R-R-A in Los Angeles,

I'll be appearing with the group chat guys for a Ringer MBA live show. Be me, Justin Varyer, Waz, Rob Mahoney, Kyle Mann's coming out. It's going to be a really fun time. You can find tickets at the L-R-R-R-E-Y, or at the ringer.com slash events. I hope to see you there if you happen to live in Los Angeles.

Talk to you guys soon. Have a great weekend. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime.

Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. available in select areas, terms apply. I'm so excited to be joined by Mina Kimes, my buddy, my partner in two things. And that is Tokyo Vice and the Ice Age album Seek Shelter. These are the two things that we most closely bond over. Mina, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me on.

I don't, who's the Jake in his partnership? And who's the kind of carry? I don't want to be the Jake. Yeah, I think Andy is maybe the Jake. He's trying to figure it out. you know, he's trying to get to the bottom of it out there at the Grand Canyon. Mina, we unintentionally, like, I always wanted to talk to you about Tokyo Vice. I knew that this was something you were, the show you loved.

And now, unfortunately, this is a bit of a eulogy pod because it's been canceled. I think ultimately, let's start there with the cancellation. Like, when you get to the end of season two, you feel like they've told this version of the story. But, like, did you want more? Did you think that there was more story to tell here? Yes and no No and yes So no insofar as they wrapped it up

Right and I read your former colleague Alison Herman had a great interview with the showrunners for this season And they talked about sort of Wanting to keep telling the story And we can talk about whether there's meat on the bone there Versus wanting to also Finish it in this season knowing it might end And when you watch the season

You could be convinced that they had no intention of telling anymore. Like it ends with the two cops sitting on a stoop in silence being like, well, this is over. We've solved crime in Japan, yeah. And they did. They got their big bad.

It was neatly wrapped up. So insofar as like the question of whether there's more story to tell, you could say this was a perfect two-season series and it was really well done and they saw it coming and they ended it appropriately. No, though, for me,

is part of the answer because I love the world so much and the quality of the acting, writing, storytelling is incredible and one would assume would continue moving forward and that they would find new stories to tell and they would do more interesting things with the actors who are unbelievable. So I don't know.

I have mixed feelings about it. What about you? Yeah, you know, I think that this show, frankly, had wire potential. I don't know if it had wire potential in terms of its, like, socio-cultural commentary. It's a period piece. It's obviously set in Japan, so it doesn't necessarily resonate

in so much with American audiences. But in terms of its storytelling and its depth of field and its portrayal of all these different levels of society, the floating world of Tokyo, like the underworld of Tokyo. I thought it had, there were other things I would be like,

tell me more about like the real estate business in Tokyo at the time. Tell me more about like how the, you know, Yakuza are trying to, you know, matriculate into, like, mainstream business culture. Like, there was definitely other ideas in this show that I wanted to see. And I think thematically, if not necessarily on the level of dialogue, it was, like, approaching something pretty awesome. And I want to get into, like, some of the themes of the second season that I thought really came across.

But ultimately, like, I would much rather it end with the way it did in the second season and sort of complete it than, whoa, Tozawa is running to the airport. Will they get to him on time and check it out next season? I think TV showrunners and TV writers at this point are wise enough to the precarious nature of renewals that they don't leave a lot to be, you know, a lot on the table when they end a season,

even if they know a third season or a fourth season is coming. Let me ask you another question that assuming that it doesn't keep going and that it remains, you know, perfectly encased in time is this two-season gem. If you were to recommend it to someone else, do you think that that two-season length would entice them? Because sometimes I'll get recommended to show

and if I find out it's canceled after one season, I'm like, nah, that was the case with Minks, which I think you recommend it to me. That's what's called Minks, right? The one about the Hustler-type women's... Oh, no, that was, yeah, minks. And yeah, they actually did get a second season. Yeah, where it just...

Oh, okay. I don't, did that actually ever, this is kind of sad because it got moved from HBO to stars, I think. So it's like on some other, but I don't know if it even actually, I feel bad because I don't know if it came out. But like, yeah, it was, it moved to another network. Two of my favorite shows of all time that I recommend to people because nobody's ever seen them are two-season shows, Patriot on Amazon and counterpart. That's right. It's also on Amazon. Yeah. And those shows, I feel very similarly to, how I feel about Toki Vice,

which is they kind of wrapped it up, but they could have kept going. And I'm always, whenever I recommended to people, they're like, well, how much is it? And I say two seasons. And sometimes they get it, eh.

It's a strange thing. Because, like, I think that one of the things that we're almost, I mean, when I talk to Andy sometimes, like, I think one of the intimidating parts about starting it.

And to be fair, like, we're always checking out the new shows. So we're, like, constantly starting things here. But I think if you haven't watched a show, and I tell you, oh, well, you're just a season or two behind.

This happens a lot. We're going to talk about some Apple TV shows. And this happens a lot with For All Mankind with folks, even with me, is it's daunting to get to know that you have like a 30-hour assignment sitting on your table. So it depends on how you watch television, but I do think that folks are looking for a really solid crime show, that this is about as good as I can recommend. It's about as good as it gets when it comes to a kind of old school,

I would say, early mid-20, style HBO, like boardwalk empire level drama. And I wonder whether or not, if this is one of the series that gets licensed out to Netflix, if this has a little bit of a renaissance once it hits a different service. 100%. Yes, I could totally see this hitting Netflix in three years and suddenly Tokyo Vice is trending. Or if maybe one of the lead actors,

like the actor who plays Soda, we're going to talk about the most charismatic man on Earth. becomes a star as God intends. Maybe that would also give it a second life because then sometimes when that happens, you know, the streamers like Netflix will put it up, but then they'll change,

they'll put his face on, you know, sometimes they do that. Amazon does that a lot. Or Ken one up, yeah. Yeah, when you, so did you watch the first season as it was on? Yes.

Okay. What was the thing that drew you to it? I mean, are you a fan of like procedural kind of crime shows in general? Or is it more like, were just curious about the world. Chris, you know I love crime shows. For the sake of the listeners, I have to pretend.

Yeah, we'll get to criminal minds. Yeah, I love crime shows, and I can't remember who recommended it to me. So maybe I was like one behind or something, but it was recommended to me by someone I trust. And I'm a Ken Watanabe fan. I was, you know, like, oh, okay, I'll watch anything with that, dude. I wasn't familiar with the book, although I had heard of it, and I knew of the journalist, Jake Gatelysen, who the show was obviously based on. And I'll tell you this, I didn't love it the first few episodes.

So the Michael Man pilot you did not love? It was okay. I thought the Jake character and Samantha characters who were really front center in the beginning of the show. And as time goes on, fade back a little bit. I wasn't really drawn in by them, the idea of the American journalist. At first, in Japan, it didn't grab me until they really, quick kind of expanded it very quickly and it became clear that it was an ensemble show. That's sort of when it started to grab me.

Yeah, I mean, I was brought into it through Michael Mann because of just a completist when it comes to him. And, you know, I talked to him about the pilot episode, which, and it was, there was a very clear distinction that he just worked on the pilot. I wonder, there is a version of this show where maybe he directs more. But, you know, he had immersed himself in, in Tokyo. I think he was living there for some time to do this this pilot episode. He had obviously, the ritual that's in the first episode, the sort of ceremony, the Yakuza ceremony, is something that I think he essentially like negotiated with like real Tokyo gangsters and was able to get access to that kind of level of, um, of intimacy with, with

this, with this world. And I was blown away by it, but also was like, I don't know if this tone can be sustained across a series. and he is one of those really distinctive directors. This comes up a lot with TV where they'll have somebody come in and do the pilot or maybe the first three and it's difficult for other directors

to match that style. Now, sometimes that can be a good thing. So in the case of something like Masters of the Air, I feel like that drastically improved after they got past the Carrie Fukunaga episodes and started using different directors and the show came to life a little bit. But it took me a little while with Tokyo Vice Season 1

to get used to the new directors and maybe a different tone than it was in the first episode. The first episode is almost like poetic. You know, it's a lot more handheld stuff, and it's a lot more like this person immersing themselves and becoming one with the Tokyo Night. I will say one thing about the beginning that in retrospect really worked,

that very rarely works is the flash forward. Yeah. So for those who have forgotten, you know, the series starts with where you see this flash forward of Jake and Ken Watnabi's character, the Grizzle Detective Katahiri, meeting with some,

you don't know who they are, they look very scary, Yakuza. And they're, if I remember it correctly, Jake comes across as like extremely comfortable and slick and they're like, they're super tight. And you watch that and you're like,

okay, we'll see what happens. And then for much of the first season, it's, your mind is like, how the hell do we get to that point? because he just, the character of Jake seems so, he's such a fish out of water, he's such a newbie, he's such a goober in many instances. You do feel intrigued by seeing how you get from point A to

B, which Chris, I rarely feel with flash forwards, I usually feel like they're pointless and unnecessary. Yeah, I, I am, I've become pretty allergic to the two weeks ago or the 10 years ago gimmick, equally annoyed by two years from now, here's where they are, or a year from now. this scene is actually something that gets featured. It's a scene that plays out in season two, which is kind of remarkable. They've done a really good job on this show of the wire adage of all the pieces matter.

You don't meet somebody on this show unless they're important. And then the people you don't really spend a ton of time with, there's an authenticity and a kind of charisma to like almost every single background actor, every single supporting actor, like the people who are like Ashita's lieutenants who then defect who have like

these incredible faces and incredible sunglasses and like all the style of the show is so mesmerizing the first season is good you know it's it I think honestly if I have to be

if I'm being straight it's like watching Jake B. Bambi on ice is the thing that kind of turn me off to a little bit of it just because I just want it to be going. I don't need this POV

character to be like what do you what do you mean like my story's been rejected what do I have to do better you know it's like I think like it might have been a barrier for a lot of people where it's like this is a story I've kind of seen is like the white guy coming to a new place and learning the ropes. But the second season is pretty

remarkable because you've got these pre-established relationships. And I think it allowed the show now that it's kind of set itself up. And club Paulina has had its grand opening, you know, and Jake is established as a newspaper reporter. And it has that great thing where it's like, the first season is somewhat self-contained, but the Tazawa arc has really started. All we know is that he is leaving the country, and then, you know, Tazawa is back. The second season is going to obviously be about his kind of ascension of the... What, what's that? His butt.

Yeah. There's a lot of just incredible full body art and butts, including my favorite scene of the series, which takes place in a bathhouse. But, yeah, like the second season's really really. about compromise. And it's about all these people who have very, very clear ideas about who they are and what they do and their identity is tied up in their profession in a lot of ways for Categueri, for Emmy, for Jake, but also for Sato and to some extent, Ishida up until the very end. And about basically compromising your ethics and your morals and all these things to get a greater good

because you think that you're going to find a greater good. Thematically, like, were you drawn into that those ideas. Yeah, I love the way you put it, because really every single main character's arc reflected that theme of compromise, the difficult choices you have to make when trying to deal with a criminal entity that doesn't play by rules, your rules, society's rules, which is very, you know, you mentioned the wire as having some resonance with this. And I think that's spot on. and it's not quite obvious yet in season one.

They're kind of, season one is really about, I think, setting up the, obviously the stakes of the Tizawa story, but also the relationships that become so important and feel real and lived in by season two and earned, I think. That's the other thing, right? Like when, you know, Jake and Soda are friends,

and he's also friends with, he really gets along with everyone, Cotagiri in season two. But those relationships are really hard-earned in season one in a way that makes season two feel seamless. And really it gets to be more about storytelling because they've already established these characters. I mean, my favorite moment in season one, I think when the series fully won me, can you guess what it was? No, because it's, you tell me, it's when facing backstreet boys in the car. Oh, yeah, that's incredible.

That's your first glimmer, though, of like, oh, my God, they're going to really, like, there's a relationship here and it's forming and this soda character is more than just a stereotype and he's not just a, you know, random henchman. He's going to be fully fleshed out and interesting. And then when they call back to it in season two and, you know, when we're seeing karaoke and stuff, it all just feels really earned in a way that lets you, as you said, kind of get into the themes that become really the point of the show. and the point of the storyline that dominates season two. Yeah, and it's like, what's cool about once TV shows get their legs like that, and if they're given room to grow up, essentially, is when you first start watching the show, you're like, okay, so Jake and Sam are going to be a couple.

Right, like, they're going to find each other. They're too desperate outsiders in this world, and she's going to sort of be his guide through the Tokyo underworld and nightlife, but then she's going to come to rely on him and they're going to be romantically linked. And instead, they're just friends. And instead, like, they have a really uneasy, very transactional relationship where I think that they know they like each other, but they still also need each other to do these favors.

Like, Jake needs information from Sam, and Sam needs Jake to write certain stories so that certain things break the right way for her when she gets tied up with the Yakuza in her own nightclub. Beyond that, though, you keep mentioning. Sato and it's uh it's it's um show kasmatsu is the actor he is i guess considered one of the biggest TV stars in Japan so not like an out of nowhere thing

but Andy and I always talk about like the cool thing the TV can do it doesn't hire stars it makes stars now that's changed a lot in the last 15 years but it used to be that you just didn't know who John Hamm was or you recognized him from you know the this ABC drama he had done two seasons on or whatever.

And now all of a sudden, John Ham's like the biggest thing in the world because he's Don Draper. And this gets pretty close with this guy, Kasamatsu. I mean, he is the most charismatic thing in this show. But it's like when he is on screen, everybody else might as well have a mask on. It doesn't matter. I might, like if I was 13 watching this show, I would have a tiger beat poster. Yeah, I think maybe it was that, I know, I was like, The Pastry Boys was really about the relationships,

but it was really about so. I mean, when he, they're in a car, it comes on, he starts singing it. And I, it's honestly one of the most riveting moments involving like a young star on TV that I can remember in a while. And like you said, it's just, he just has it, man. It's the charisma. He, it's funny because. by season two, him and Jake are on the same side,

and they're actually working together in a lot of ways. He's also working with the cops, which, again, that's part of the compromise that you alluded to. But I found myself, like, if they were on different sides, as sort of was the case in season one, I remember you feel yourself more pulled to not wanting to just to see SOT on your screen more

because he's the most engaging presence on the show, but also just wanting him to succeed to the point where you're like, I don't really care about what the cops are doing. I just want him to become the leader of the Chihara Khan. Yeah. And it's like, you know, the gangster with a heart of gold trope is something that comes, you know, it's like there's a little bit of that in mean streets. There's, it's a thing, you know, like the, the gangster who ultimately like, it's like protecting his family is more important than his ascension up like a criminal chain of command.

but he has like a kind of old school, dare I say like Paul Newman, maybe not that level, but like he's able to stand still and smoke and wear a suit really well. And you're like, man, this is good TV. I don't even know what's going on, but this guy has got my attention.

There's just something to it. It's star power. It's to be in, again, a show with Ken Watabie and own the show is, you know, the American I know who the American analog for Ken Watnabi is, but it's a pretty incredible feat. I will say, helped a little bit by the fact that if there is one complaint I have about season two, it's that Katagiri's character is really just relegated to growling and being upset

and like sort of hovering outside the office of the lady cop. Yeah. I mean, like, that was interesting. I thought that they did a really good job expanding some characters that, you know, like Tazawa's wife, you know what I mean? For instance, like they did a really good job like delving into the world,

but I do think it came at the expense of Categary who, unlike Jake who gets his Missouri episode and you kind of have like a full standalone Jake storyline, Category is essentially like ferrying his family to different hotel rooms and then recreating crimes in airplane hangers. And it's really not until the very end

when he essentially tells Jake he can't do his job. Like he's not allowed to tell the story that he lived. He has to tell him he has to write the story that Cateagary tells him to write. That's like his most sort of impactful move, I think. Yeah. The airplane singer.

I forgot that scene is cool when they recreate the Sicario-style traffic shooting. The motorcycle drive-by, which is the fun coolest thing ever. And when Kenwandaie's character figures it out what happened and that the dirty cop

knew what was coming. That is a neat moment. But yeah, he is a little bit reduced in this season and I do like how it wraps up. I will say of all the compromises, as you're just saying that Jake's character definitely makes the ones that are consistently the most unethical

and is a really, like, is a problematic journalist. Yeah, he's straight up blow sources. Like he burns sources. he, like, I mean, he lies in pieces so that he can, like, curry favor with the right, like, sources of power. It's pretty outrageous because, and I wonder if Jake Edelson was like, yeah, that's what happened or, you know, I mean, I think that his book, I think, if I understand correctly, his book is much more focused or a major part of it is the liver transplant stuff. Okay. That happened in the States and, like, tracking down that and also, like, the Yakuza arrest.

that were happening, but I don't know whether or not he is as ethically compromised as a journalist as he's portrayed in the show. I guess it's pretty cool that he was up for that depiction. How did you feel about that sort of side quest? Well, it's not a side quest. It's in the first, it's the side quest is really the bike game. Which ends up being relevant. Yeah, no, it's, it's awesome. But what he's like, I'm going to do a piece on like kids who steal motorcycles. they're like basically the dead boys who were like we were existentialists we've you know like we just don't believe in anything uh but well you know you can go to every single point in this series like you said it does there's a reason it connects him back to soda and then they become

you know there there's everything matters for sure but how did you what i meant was it's not a cyclist but how did you feel about the i guess it's a two episode arc where he goes back to america one episode that's really focused on his time there um Which, again, it's not a side quest. It is very important. Did you, but they take you out of the world of the show? Did that bother you in season two? I thought it was like, it was essentially the saving grace of that character, like to actually get to see his sister and to get to see his parents and kind of see where he came from in a way that obviously that trip changes him.

Like even to the extent that he comes back and he's got the slicked back Michael Mann hair, you know, when he arrives back in Japan. He's like, he has a glow up. But I thought that that was a kind of like, you know, soft chirp in the background of the show was these, the tapes and the idea that he's resisted to going home for some reason. And I got to say, I mean, it was very resonant to me, like the kind of the tractor beam, but also the repellent force of home, like where you're home. And then when you're home, you're like, I don't want to be here. This isn't who I am anymore. but how do I explain to these people who I am? And I thought that some of the stuff for the dad was quite touching.

So I actually thought to the extent that Jake is the protagonist of this show, it was very helpful. I would rather have just been in Tokyo and been in the constant darkness of that place. But I thought it function well. What about you? I agree about the characterization aspect. I almost wonder if it could have come a little bit sooner maybe. But visually, I found the contrast to be really. really interesting and sort of, you know, you've, like you said, the darken it. You live for most

of this series in really beautifully shot and of a moment portrayal of Tokyo. And especially it's, it really feels immersive by season two. And you get to see different parts of the city. And it's clear that they had like incredible access. And it's, it's dark and it's neon and you're in clubs and basements and gangster layers. And then all of a sudden, you're in the Midwest and it's sunny. And you're at a cookout. Yeah. And you're at a cookout. And you're, you're, you know, that contrast I thought was really interesting because it sort of doubles

the actual just the way it's shot gives you perhaps more insight into Jake than anything else and why he would want to be why he was so pulled somewhere else and why he ends up making all the compromises he does to stay there. You know, this is one thing I wanted to talk

about was the period piece aspect of this which is at a crucial point in technological development where there are cell phones but they are just coming in basically. Like they're kind of like a little bit of like either you're given one by your job or you know, you're rich and you have one. But one thing that that trip kind of hammered home was the feeling of like if you traveled to a foreign country or if you were living in a different place,

like even if you were living across the country, like you were very separate from your family and you were very separate from your friends. Like you did not have FaceTime. You did not have Google meters. Zoom. You weren't on group chats. You weren't, you know, sending pictures every day in a WhatsApp or anything like that. Like, I remember doing a semester abroad and talking to my parents once a week for like five minutes on a payphone, you know, and that was in, that was around this time. And when they came over to visit me, it was like, I will meet you here in a week at this time. And it was like,

hope you see you there. It wasn't, it was like, I'm running 10 minutes late. Was not something you could communicate to people. So I thought that that was like a really cool period piece thing that they didn't make too big of a deal about. But Jake going from Japan to Missouri is not an easy thing financially. It's not an easy thing logistically. And it's something that will take him out of his job in a hardcore way if he does it. And I think it made some of the, I would not contrivances, some of the challenges in terms of like actually solving the crime and why he had to go back to Japan. It's like, you know, bro, you can't just stay another day and go speak to your citrus class. Yeah.

But when, you know, Cotagary's calling, he's like, come back. Part of the reason he has to come back is he cannot, he cannot help in America because of what you're saying, which is, you know, there's not the internet, right? Like, he can't do, he can't, he has to go to Minnesota to go to the hospital. He can't just stay home and whatever. And I thought it's, that's another part of the reason why I think this show, as a detective show, it works so well is a lot of modern crime shows. when you're watching them rely too much on coincidence and ignore the realities of the internet.

Some do a great job, I think, of integrating the internet into crime solving. But a lot of it's like, okay, you could just pick up the phone and called someone. This is my Ozark thing. Especially in later seasons of Ozark,

it was like, why are you driving around a giant lake to have a five-minute conversation that was a text? Totally. But that's not an option with this show. And certainly not when they're in the final few episodes,

which feel very, I think are amazing. The last three episodes of season two are incredible to me. A lot of the aspects of that they're hiding and they're chasing and trying to, you know, get people in various locations. It has to play out that way because of the time in which this is taking. Yeah, that's especially exemplified when, like, Jake doesn't really understand how hurt Tintin is. So, like, when he doesn't know about it for a while, because obviously they can't in touch with him. And then when he finds out, like, all he knows is that he's in the hospital and has been stabbed. So he doesn't know, like, he'll be okay.

You know, it's just more like, there's nothing you can do here. So, like, you have to finish the work you started. Speaking of the, you know, you asked about, like, whether I like the standalone thing, uh, I do wish we had gotten a flashback to Tzawa in Minnesota. Um,

and just see like, what? Like, what would happen if Tzawa was just like at a Twins game or, you know, like going to a supermarket. he's got like full body tats. Incredible.

Yeah. When Tazawa's dressed up for the board meeting and you see he has to like cover it all up to fit in or whatever, I was like, dang, like, you know, a little piece picking out, because his tattoo is so large and such an important part of his character and important part of Yakuza culture. I loved the character of Tazawa, by the way. and at the beginning of season two was a little, when he went away,

I was a little nervous. Yeah, who's going to be the big bad, yeah. Yeah, because the guy, and this is on purpose. The number two in his clan, I can't remember the name of the tall guy who's, they get at the end with the setup in the hotel room with the sunglasses, who's kind of skinny or whatever. Who used to be, I think, down.

He was in Ashita's crew, and I think he moves, right? I can't remember his name. Not intimidating at all, though. Yeah, so I was so relieved. He makes his reappearance. His butt, I think, is the first thing. They show his butt so much in the show. I was so relieved, though, when he really adds a layer of menace and makes it a thriller in a way that it wasn't when he wasn't on the show.

Did you find the ending of the Tazawa arc to be like I mean it is pretty outstanding the way like you know the doors open his wife's there don't make promises you can't keep he's basically forced to do Sepaku

it is did you mind that there wasn't I mean I guess that's kind of an action scene with the rating of the boat and everything to get to the papers and stuff but I thought it was a more emotional and thematic ending than it was

action-packed. And I think that that was kind of cool that they had the guts to do that. They very easily could have done a raid and a shootout again, but they didn't.

I loved it. I feel like this show has done, it does such a good job of showing that sort of balance between ultra-violence and then they'll show

the yakuzas have being these elaborate ceremonies initiations that are so beautiful in the ritual of it and how formal it can be. And so I think for his end to be more like that, a little bit more ceremonial and peaceful in a way. And it's funny, you know, as much as he was like breaking the rules and trying to take over and he was kind of an agent of chaos in some ways. At the end, he fell in line, sort of, and, you know, went with what was expected and asked of him, which I thought was really a good way to wrap up his

storyline. Yeah, and it was cool. There was no physical confrontation. I mean, you get that, I guess, with Sato and Hayama in the bathhouse, which is just this incredible Eastern Promises-esque scene of like a dozen naked yakuza guy. bathing and these incredible shots of these guys all tatted out so everybody's got the full body tattoos and are standing with their backs to the camera but it actually looks like wallpaper almost because of like the way that they're standing and haiam has essentially taken sato's um brother under his wing as a power play against sato anyway and is trying to you know indoctrinate him into the yakuz even though that's exactly what sato doesn't want to

want. And he comes to confront him and they have this physical confrontation in a bathhouse that eventually ends with Hayama dying. But like that's sort of like the action peak of this season. And then the rest of it is really more chess. It's kind of like, yeah, you're out of moves, man, to Zala. Like this is this is all like you can you can do it the easy way or the hard way. And neither way is really easy. But but you're not going to like it if you want to try and leave this room. It was, the bathhouse scene is like, first of all, I would love to. to learn more about how that was shot. Because, I mean, that must take it forever,

honestly. Just for all the reasons you laid out, the elaborate nature of hiding a bunch of penises, probably. I mean, the blocking alone. But it was really satisfying because unlike, like, Tuzawa's character is frightening. And, like, he has so many moves. Yeah, he's got the prime minister in his pocket.

It's like, yeah. Yeah. And there's certain points in the season where he feels inevitable, where Jake's like, oh, my God, like, there's nothing, you know, when they destroyed the tapes at the beginning of the season, and they feel like Emmy and Jake are trying to figure out who he's in bed with, and it feels like everybody in Japan. So there's that. Hayama's character is a different type of villain. He's just deeply adoy. Yeah. And you just hate him. And I think to give him a violent end felt more fitting for the character who, like,

you can't imagine him agreeing to commit Sapuku the way Tuzawa did in the end. But, yeah, I will say when Tuzawa I think it was when his wife tried to make, yes, when she tried, I can't remember which episode it was.

Oh, and he's like naked and she's like you look like you did when I first met you thing? Yeah. And she makes one last attempt at her own compromise. Yes. And when he shuts her down, I turned to Nick and I said, oh no that's not going to

That actress she was in Drops of God right which we can talk about Yeah sure Anyway The mistress or the wife was in the

The wife I think was in it Yeah she might have Right Anyway she There's another character In Tokyo Vice Who's in Drops a God Akiro the host

who's like a little side character Is the main guy Which it took me forever to realize Because he's not a big character In Tokyo Vice But anyways When Tozawa's wife when he shuns her there,

the way that they had kind of set her up as being someone who was going to be important, I felt like the payoff was coming. And that was also one of the more satisfying moments when she rolls down the window and you see her and you realize she's going to help Jake. I mean, that was, for me, another one of my favorite moments.

I think that episode, I believe it was episode eight at the end of episode eight was just start to finish. Eight's the best episode of this series, I think. Such a good episode. So incredible. Well, I mean, we could talk about some other stuff. Obviously, this is a little bit more of a recap eulogy.

So if you've skipped this part of our conversation because you haven't seen Tokyo Vice yet and you didn't want it spoiled, Mina and I are here to tell you that you will not be disappointed if you check it out. And it's really cool, too, because I think between the success of Shogun and Tokyo Vice is at least nominal, like, notoriety, it does feel like American audiences are a little bit more game to just watch something that's 75. You know, in Japanese or in a foreign language. So hopefully people will give it a shot. The playoffs are here. And you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts.

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I think I've, one thing I'll say about these shows is that they always do just enough to make me interested enough to watch. So I'll, I just watched the first episode of Presumed Dinnocent last night, I like you, went through Manhunt. Totally enjoyable. Like, these shows are generally, like, what I want to ask you is this, is this our CBS? Are we becoming people who are like, I like my programs? You know, like, I just want to sit down on a Sunday and watch a show. Yeah. Just let Mommy watch your programs. I would say it's less of an addiction. It's not like CVS. It's more like, for me anyways, when you have like a on-campus meal plan, you're like, well, I already paid for this. So I'm going to go to a cafeteria.

And I'm just, I got to get my money's worth. Yeah, exactly. A very bargain-oriented person. It would be, I really hate paying for something and then not getting the most out of it. And I think I've gotten the most out of my Apple TV. You've taken Tim Cook to the rack. Well, okay, so there, I actually think that they've put out a number of really good shows. There are, it has a sci-fi bent, which I like, although, um, I haven't watched Foundation,

which is, I know the gigantic... I didn't watch The Foundation. I watched Silo, which is... Oh, Silo. Silo and to some extent for all mankind, which I'm behind on, are the two sci-fi ones that I think I most deal with on Apple.

Yeah, so I like those shows. I mean, you recommended Criminal Minds to me. It's just criminal. Criminal Minds is a CBS. Like, that's been going on for like 20 years. Mandy Patankan was on it for... Wait, what is the show that you're... It's just criminal.

And it's Peter... It's called criminal. See, this is the problem. That's the worst name for a show I've ever heard. It's Peter Capaldi and Cush Jimbo. And it's... I love, like, BBC detective shows, like, Broad Church. And this and...

No, uh... Criminal record. Happy Valley. Criminal record. This is the problem with Apple. Why are we like... It's either criminal minds or criminal, and it's actually a third one. It's...

It's if you like cop shows that are sort of... It's not a procedural. It's about... There's one case, but it's about a crooked question mark cop. And Peter Capaldi is, let me tell you, cooking with gas in this show. He is unbelievable. Christian Bo is great, too, but he is unreal. I don't watch Dr. Hughes, so I didn't know.

I was Shaq not familiar with your game, sir. It is incredible. So you've never seen the thick of it? You've never seen in the loop of it? Oh my God, you will die if you see the thick of it. It's so good. I'll watch anything with this dude. Bad Sisters is Apple TV.

that I feel like more people watch that one. Manhunt is not... Did you like it? I liked the first couple. And then I got to a little bit of like... I think that there was... There was something to it where I was just like, I kind of understand where this is going

and I just had other stuff I was watching it. It was like just good enough. I thought the first couple episodes were good. I think it's just a nature of the beast thing where like I just don't always finish. stuff if I'm like, I think I got it. You know how it ends. Yeah, I do know how it ends, unfortunately.

I, okay, this is embarrassing, but part of the reason I watched until the end is, while I knew that they caught John Brooks food, I, like, 80% of the history in the show was news to your girl. Yeah. I didn't realize he was like the Ryan Gosling of the time, or that his trial, the they were trying to, that there was a conspiracy, pardon me, or they thought that there might be, I had, I had

no idea about any of that. Yeah. So I was just watching to learn, to learn history, Chris. Some of the casting, though, killed me. That might be dangerous to rely on Apple TV for major history lessons. The alternate history of the space space. That's like watching Masters of the Air and just being like, I guess every pilot was a total smoke show. This is cool.

These guys had great skin care in 1943. Why does nobody, why, is it just that people don't buy the service? Because I don't think it's the, as we've discussing, the shows are as good as, you know, certainly what's on Netflix in my opinion. Yeah, I, you know, I'm sort of surprised by it. I do feel like they, they advertise their stuff fairly well. I think it might be at this point, and they're trying to correct that this year because

they've got a new show every, every month, it seems like. I think it's just a thing where people are pretty tapped out. and they've got their Netflix account. They probably have Amazon Prime. They have probably Max because they want to watch Dragon or Last of Us or whatever. And they're older, their grandfathered in from the sort of peak prestige TV days of HBO. And Apple is something that, like,

they were giving away for free with a couple of different cell phone plans for a while. And now it's like, do you want to pay for this? I don't know. I think it's also like a lot of their shows are kind of, too vanilla to be like super interesting but not basic enough to be easy to watch TV. I mean, they really focus on hour long dramas in a time where I don't really think that there's a lot of those, you know, and they're not superhero shows. They're not connected IP shows for the most part.

Slow horses isn't grabbing the TikTok generation. I don't think so. I don't think Gary Elman farting has quite taken over TikTok just yet. But that's my favorite Apple show, is Slow Horses. The strategy, aside from the sci-fi bent, seems like just getting really famous or good actors, right? But I guess that's not enough because it feels like none of these shows have sort of entered the zeitgeist where I see it, you know, inspiring Twitter trends or a conversation on social or just general.

Like I just, none of the, other than Ted Les, So, we're just sort of, you know, I mean, it's over. Which I would argue had like a year season and a half of kind of like iconic, you know, everybody is talking about this. And then it kind of, I think it sort of ran out of air in the last season. Yeah. Yeah. So nothing's really captured people or captured America even.

So I guess, I don't know. If I was studio, I'd look at that and say, well, like the actor isn't enough because you're right. the, I mean, we're even, as we're talking about, like, the basic plots or points of these shows, I'm not really even doing a good job explaining what any of them are about. Well, there's, there is like an, um, you know what, the one that I think probably did the best, if I had to guess, was hijack. And hijack did a really good job just being what it was. hijack was a pulpy, really well done, very expensive looking piece of pulp. And it was something that was compelling enough that you felt like,

I need to watch hijack when it comes out because I need to find out what happens on this plane. And a lot of their shows feel more like 20 episode ABC shows from like the late 90s or 2000s or something that are just kind of like drifting. You know, like Lessons and Chemistry is a good example of that. I think to some extent morning show is, where like morning show isn't just about a hot button political topic. It's about every hot button political topic, every hour. And it becomes really exhausting to watch.

Morning show, which I do watch somewhat to my own embarrassment, because it is truly, it's a lot, it's pretty slop. Yeah, and let me just say, all in on Morning Show season four, because Marion Cotillard is in season four, and I guarantee you she has never seen the morning show. I guarantee you Marion Cotterard has never... She does not have Apple TV. If she does, it would be the shock of the century.

If you... She didn't mainline Drops a guy. Drops a God, by the way, might be my favorite Apple TV show. And I love trying to explain the premise to random people to convince... Drops a God is like the ultimate... Because really a lot of your job

is just convincing people to watch certain shows, Chris. trying to convince the, we should do a man on the street where you try to convince a random Angelino to watch drops of God. We should have Billy Eichner run up to them. I'd be like, have you seen drops of God? It's about wine! It's a competition between this guy and this,

you know, his daughter, you know, it's a random Japanese person who, uh, it's hard to explain without twist. She's allergic, but maybe not. Yeah. Some of it takes place in Tokyo and it's a really beautiful shot. But, morning show

tonally quality it's really similar to the newsroom for me which was I can't remember how well that did at the time it was very difficult because that was a time

when like if you looked at Twitter you would be like I guess everybody on the planet watched newsroom last night but it was probably 100,000 people you know

like Aaron Rogers and yeah I feel like the way now sometimes clips from the newsroom go viral for being cringe, like the infamous speech on the plane. I think in five years morning show we'll have a second life when people realize how insane it is. Yeah. Yes. But because it lives on Apple TV, I don't feel like it's kind of crossed over in that way, despite the fact that they're trying to collect every A-list and award-winning actor that they can and just throwing them onto the show.

I've often thought about coming in and just having a segment where I tell Andy what happened on Morning Show. It's something I really enjoy watching with my wife. But like, Rees Witherspoon, nearly dying in space. That happened, right? Like, was it her character or was it Aniston? Anneson Bales, right? So Reese has to go up there? There, it's, okay, yes.

And they're also the stars of the show, but they're barely on screen together. They are clearly not on screen together. It has, I don't know if you watch The Good Wife, but I don't know, you remember Julianne of Marguerlees and Kalinda. Stop talking. And so they, I think to the point where they had to Photoshop, do the video equivalent of Photoshop. like shoot them separately and use movie magic to, I don't think.

It's one of the last remaining mysteries in the world is whether or not they were actually on set together during their last conversation on GoodFind. Good wife. Good wife, yeah. But yeah, the morning show is approaching that sort of territory with their two stars. I don't understand what's happening. It is one of my, that show, I feel like Amanda Dobbins and I have that show where when they did Jan 6.

she didn't tell me, and I just texted her they're doing chances, and she knew exactly what I was talking about. Similarly to how I... And her brother was there. Oh, my God, dude. Oh, God. That's another one where I was just like, I think I told me, I think Andy's only experience of this show

after like the first episode of the first season has literally been me, be like, Steve Corell is living in seclusion in Italy and is making a documentary about his kids. cancellation. We're a waste of talent. There's so many good people on this show and it's just like, yeah, this is a good idea. But that's the thing.

This Apple TV, like so many of these shows have such incredible actors. And to what end, I guess? Well, I think that I will say this for Criminal Record, I think I got a little bit frustrated by it's basically the single case that gets just a little bit dragged down. towards the second half of the season, but it starts very strong. I've got really high hopes for presumed innocent. One of the things that has bothered me,

I think, about Apple shows, is the very, like, affirmative, like, it's not, don't worry, you won't get too disturbed by anything you see here. And I think with Masters of the Air, it took a while for me to get around, like, Banda Brothers in the Pacific

are actually incredible documents of, like, you know, why war is very traumatizing. and Masters of the Year had a little bit of that, but it was also like, you'll still look like Austin Butler when you land this plane. Like you were, there was never really a lot of, like,

um, reckoning with what was going on. It was just sort of like cool guys flying planes. Presumed it since the first thing I've come across on this service in a long time where it was like, pretty violent. It was, it was a lot of sex.

And the characters are all very deeply, deeply flawed, not in a, like, cool way. Like, it's like, these are really fucked up people. And it is a throwback to like that 90s erotic thriller style movie.

But I'll be kind of curious to see where the series goes because obviously this is a story that's essentially predicated on this giant twist, which may or may not be known. So I'm not going to spoil the movie or the book. And I think now there is like some 4D chess going on where people are like, well, they can't be doing the same twist. So what's the new twist? And you actually wind up watching it with these new options. because they're like, huh, it doesn't seem like they're going to go in the same direction. It's not the same, same story, but at the same time, like, who could it be?

So it actually has rekindled the mystery part of presumed innocent while also being like a really well-done show. This is David Kelly, yes. It's David Kelly and Jake Gyllenhaal is the lead. And then, like, he's surrounded by like really overqualified character actors like Bill Camp and Peter Sar's Guard and Ruth Negga in the cast. Lily, Rob, yeah, I was reading about it a little bit, and it reminded me of the chokehold that the undoing had on America during the pandemic where we were all convinced there'd be a twist, and then there just was no twist. Yes.

We had so little. We were just like, it's got to be this, right? I feel like I was on a text thread with Bill, where he just kept throwing out twists for the undoing. Yeah, Bill wanted to fan duel same game parlay at the undoing. I think at a certain point. But I think you make a good point, though, by the way, about the sort of the lack of stakes for some of these shows. It is very smooth jazz.

A lot of the, like, Manhunt being a pretty good example of that most recently. That's just on my mind. Even Bad Sisters is little, they're doing something different. And they created a truly memorable villain in that one. But, you know, that, again, from a stakes perspective, it all goes down pretty smooth, obviously, Ted Lassau being the smoothest of smooth jazz shows that exists. Yeah.

You know, it kind of reminds me of the feeling of like when you go into L.A. restaurant now, nine times out of ten, the soundtrack is 90s rap. And for me, like, 90s rap was this very, like, you know, it was kind of like my punk rock or whatever. Like, it was this transgressive, like, it's so cool. Noss is like the most important. And now you listen and you're just like, I associate Noss with eating rigatoni now. And that's kind of how I feel about Apple TV.

It's like prestige TV flattened into the most like acceptable format. Before I let you go, thank you so much for your time today, by the way. Let's talk a little bit about Top Chef. I won't spoil anything about last night's episode. But I was, I wanted to get a little bit of a vibe check because Andy and I have been somewhat critical of this season. both the cooking and I think also just the transition

out of the Padma era into the Kristen era and some of the things that they've done whether it's Last Chance Kitchen taking on this outsized role in the competition and also

I think some of the struggles that they've had with like balancing quick fires and elimination so I was just curious like how you felt about this season and whether or not Andy and I were being like

overly critical like we've been in the lab too long with this and now we have to criticize it. Yeah, I think chrism is totally fair the season. It's definitely not one of the better seasons. I think the big question is how much of that is format change versus this is just a bad draft class of chefs. And probably the answer is a little bit of both.

I think from the format change perspective, first of all, I think Kristen's been fine as a host. I think she's done a good job. I don't feel Patton's absence, honestly, watching the show. I do think that the Quick Fire change and then the mid-season rule change, you know, Adam Silver-Sk. The quick fires are going to count towards elimination. Yeah. Little, it's, it's, I object to it mostly because they never explained why they did it. I think if they had, at the beginning of the season, said, we're doing it this way because X, Y, Z, I would have maybe bought in a little bit, but it just felt arbitrary.

And then it felt, it's funny because this show is. obviously it's all pre-taped, so it's not like in real-time. Again, they were like, well, we've got to cut back on scoring, so we're going to change the rules, you know, whatever. It was all premeditated, but if that makes it even more puzzling to me. Like, why did you just say halfway? I would be really curious to know, you know, hopefully we're going to talk with some folks from the show next week after the finale,

and I would like to know whether or not that was something that they felt like. I mean, I presume the last chance kitchen aspect of it was obviously pre-planned. They brought Sue in as the extra chef. He had to do King of the Hill in Last Chance Kitchen. He gets out of Last Chance Kitchen for a few episodes of the main show. I think that that was obviously always in the cards. I do wonder whether or not the quick fires being brought into the equation of elimination had to do with feeling like they needed to provoke these chefs into a higher level of cooking, maybe.

And now, I think the problem with that is that the quick fire. Brick fires are often pretty goofy, you know, like, or their spawncon for whatever brand is, like, behind the show that week. And, or they're, you know, they have to do the Wisconsin cheese growers of America challenge or whatever. But I thought it, I honestly, like, without giving anything away about last night's episode, because you haven't gotten a chance to see it yet. I thought that this was the first time where I was like, ooh, like, now we're getting to the, we're getting the elimination. and this guy is slightly better than that guy, but I know that he didn't cook as well in quickfires and got kind of dinged for it.

So I wonder if that's going to be at all part of the math when they're talking about eliminating a chef. Speaking of Sue, though, I felt that way when he was up for elimination, because you remember when he wasn't ultimately eliminated, he finished in the top and the quick fire, Manny finished in the bottom, as he so often did. And then it just didn't matter.

Yeah. So I think they get, I guess it has felt a little bit all over the place with regards to like the enforcement of the rules, what matters when. That's to me been a problem. But I think probably, Chris, the bigger issue is none of the chefs made. I mean, I think some of them would probably have gone far on other seasons. But there haven't been like many super memorable food moments. Like when I think back on the season, usually by now I can say, wow, this, I've never seen this before or this combination was really fascinating. It's always hard to talk about the quality of the food and we're not actually there to taste it.

And you're really just basing your reactions on the reactions of the judges. But I don't feel like it really does seem like the cooking has not been as impressive as it's been in recent years. Yeah, and I think you can always tell that there's something going on when a bunch of chefs are making the same kind of thing. Now, some of that might be, oh, I have to do something. It's hot out, so I'm not going to make something that might fall apart, you know, or wilt or whatever. But I feel like there was like a bunch of aqua chilis. Like, there was just like a lot of like, I'm going to do something like a raw prep of this. And it's just like, I think a crude off can be great. I enjoy it at a restaurant.

But like there's something kind of flat and boring about. that and I wonder whether there's a little bit of like you probably won't get eliminated off this because you're not going to get criticized on your cook. So you're doing a raw fish preparation or something like that. I'm not really sure. But it's definitely definitely something I'll be curious to see. Also, you know, this, we're coming off of, you know, a couple of all-star seasons or, you know, the World Challenge. And then there was like all-stars in the LA. And I almost feel like this season was missing like an outsized character like a Brooke or like, like, you know, somebody who was like kind of a star. And Buddha became a star over the course of a couple of seasons. I almost was like, should Buddha just defend his crown until somebody beats him? Like, I don't know. I mean. It was the fish boil when some of the chefs came back, right?

And you could tell they were so unimpressed, by the way, again. Top Chef, it's, I always, I feel like something that kind of gets unnoticed with NFL games is how much the tone of the way announcers talk about plays influenced the way. Absolutely. Erica perceives what happens and when whether like people think there was a penalty like if, you know, something should have been called or whether they think it was smart or whether they think a player is playing well. So much is influenced by the reactions people. Top Chef is the ultimate example of that because again, we can't eat it. So we're reacting to the reactions and then basing

our feelings about it on that. And the reactions have been unimpressed. And maybe that's been a bigger, as Lenny Wachson, a bigger issue more than even the format change or the contestants is the judges do not seem to be having a great time. Tom, in particular, who I think is the, you know, HBIC, and we all look to him. Yes. For guidance, he doesn't seem like he's stoked. That is explicitly made clear last night. Okay. They are like, there is a moment where they're like, we are not very impressed with like where we're at at this point in the season. It seems like they took a step back for this first part of the finale. Yeah. I'll be curious. Text me when you watch. Mina, thank you so much for joining me. And,

And, you know, Tokyo Vice is no more, but I'm sure we'll find a new show soon. It might come back. We got the boys coming, so you're excited for that. Oh, I can't wait a little boys. All right, Mina, thank you so much. Hey, Mama, thanks for making all my favorite recipes. Hi, Ma, thanks for your unfiltered advice. Hi, Mom. Thanks for always being by the phone.

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