The Watch - A Grab Bag of TV News, Summer Reading Recommendations, and Episodes 3 and 4 of ‘Dark’ Season 2 | The Watch

Episode Date: June 28, 2019

With ‘Years and Years’ airing and ‘Station 11’ set to begin production, are we ready for apocalyptic television (2:53)? Our reading recommendations for the summer (12:46) and what streaming will look like once ‘The Office’ leaves Netflix (22:50). Plus: breaking down Episodes 3 and 4 of ‘Dark’ Season 2 (27:50). Host: Chris Ryan Guests: Jason Concepcion and Jason Gallagher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Eminem's. Have you tried Eminem's caramel yet? Caramel has been square for too long. And Eminem's is doing their part by giving you that familiar flavor in a package you love surrounding the smooth caramel and delicious milk chocolate. As always, Eminem's knows how to bring spontaneous fun, just like, I don't know, like the sketch comedy on I think you should leave or the irreverent sense of humanity on Fleabag.

With Eminem's caramel, we can all agree that caramel is more fun than ever. Go grab some Eminem's caramel today and let your taste buds go for a ride. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Just Crack an Egg. You want to talk about great production value. How about a legit, hot, fluffy breakfast scramble that's packed with all your favorite ingredients. It's called Just Crack an Egg, and all you have to do is add a fresh egg over their hearty ingredients, then stir, microwave, and enjoy any day of the week. It takes less than two minutes to make.

find all seven varieties of just crack an egg in the egg aisle. Hey guys, thanks for listening to today's episode of The Watch. It's me, Chris Ryan. I'm joined today by two Jason's. Jason Concepcion stopped by, and we talked very, very briefly about the debates last night, but more about years and years on HBO, Station 11, which is coming to Warner Media from Hero Mirai and Patrick Somerville,

and a couple of other dystopian topics. And basically the idea behind that conversation was, as our own world changes. Some would argue for the worse, I think. How do you feel about dystopian fiction, dystopian television, dystopian movies? Does it make you feel less comfortable? Is it not as much escapism anymore

if you're talking about the reality that we're living in versus what you're watching on TV or in movies? So that was a really cool conversation. Jason also had some really good recommendations books-wise. Then later in the podcast, Jason Gallagher, join me to talk about episodes three and four of season two of dark. Now, it's only two episodes we're talking about. It just so happens that you need a friggin

abacus and like, you know, like a physics degree to understand the show. So we're moving slowly and we're going to keep making our way through dark. Just a quick programming note. Next Monday, we're going to do a nice big preview for Stranger Things season three. And I think Gallagher will come on and we'll do a couple more episodes of dark. Then we're off on July 4th. And then when we come back the following Monday, I'll have a big pod probably with Mal about Stranger Things. The first few episodes will basically split Stranger Things into two pods. So Stranger Things preview and then two Stranger Things pods with some other stuff sprinkled in. And Gallagher will keep stopping by to keep the dark train moving.

So let me get into my conversation with Jason Concepcion about the end of the world. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at The Ringer.com and joining me in the studio, this is Tulsi's sister.

It's Jason Concepcion! Let me get my Twitter takes off. Dude, this thing is fixed. Tulsi Gabbard's sister, come on desktop. Get on here. Listen, we won't lock you out of the account. I think more people should turn their Twitter accounts over to their siblings. I agree.

Why not? Who do you trust in this world? Tulsi Gabbard's sister. Do you watch the debates last day? I did. I kind of like, I watch a little bit, and then I mostly got Twitter stuff. This is the watch. This is Jason Concepcion.

We're going to go over a couple of like, it's kind of a grab bag episode today. Yes. I got a bunch of stuff I want to talk about, not necessarily including the debates. I was just asking. As an act of television, I suppose we could talk about it. You did watch though? I did, you know, as a person alive in the world at this particular moment in our global history, I did feel that it was somewhat my responsibility.

to watch these debates as they unfolded. You didn't seem, you don't seem happy about it. I mean, there's just like a lot of Drek out there. You know, shockingly, Bill de Blasio, my former mayor of the city I once lived in, did well. If you don't know who Bill de Blasio is, you're like, that guy's pretty good.

It would be like if you were like, I've never seen television before, and then you watch NCIS. And you're like, that's actually pretty good. Yeah. That was entertaining. His constituency is people who are, unaware of him.

So that was like a bit of a shock, but it's like, you know, Tulsi Gabbard and the rest. The reason why I'm even bringing this up, so last night, I was like kind of going to try and avoid them, the debates. And I went to a bar in my neighborhood

to watch Gold Cup, to watch U.S. men's national team. And I walked in the bar and every television had the debates on. So that was cool. And I watched, I did see Josie Altadjord's goal, but I watched the debates.

And then when I got home, I watched the first episode of this HBO show years and years. I have not watched the end. I'm excited to watch it. Russell Davies, he recently worked on Doctor Who. He did Queer's Folk. He's the guy behind the years and years. It's on HBO and I think it's on BBC.

And it stars Emma Thompson as this, I guess like a hybrid kind of Nigel Farage, Mateo Salvini, Donald Trump, kind of populace, but also like crucially, like shooting from the hip and saying what she thinks, that's like basically her thing. is a politician. She starts out as like a pundit.

She runs for a parliament seat and loses, but then stays as a pundit. She also kind of resembles Katie Hopkins a little bit, who's like a pretty notable, infamous British commentator. And then the show in the first like 25 minutes or so is basically like this montage is like the years go by. I think it goes like five, six years into the future. And Trump's still president, so it's his second term.

And I'm going to do a spoiler. but it's a spoiler that's worthwhile. So it's basically this family. They're hanging out. They all have very futuristic problems. Like there's a couple in the family and they have a daughter who says that she's trans. And they're like, oh, that's okay.

Like we're going to work with you and we love you still. And she's like, no, not transsexual. I'm transhuman. I want to have my brain downloaded into data and just go into the cloud. So apparently that's like I think you can do in five years. And then as the show goes on and like this family interacts

and its usual dromedy kind of stuff, the episode ends with Donald Trump launching a nuclear attack on China. Dope. And it's just like a really, a very like, oh, that's quite a way to end my night at 1120 after like a long conversation about climate change and immigration and everything that's happening in the world. And then to end it with like what's supposed to be, I think some people still look at television as like this safety blanket as like an entertainment thing.

And then to have it be like, no, here's your worst fear as possible. realized. You know, it's been interesting to like just consume media during this period when it's like it feels like if you open your Twitter app, like in any given hour of the day and it feels like you can watch like the dystopia happen before your eyes. Yeah. Which is not a thing as a fan of dystopian fiction is really not a thing that anybody

foresaw. That you would just be like beyond this roller coaster ride heading straight for the downhill oblivion and all of us getting our takes off. Yeah. Because it's like, well, who can stop it? So you get into a little bit of a check in the egg thing, where it's like, are we commentating on stuff in a particularly

apocalyptic fashion? I would venture to say no. I think things are pretty bad. Does it necessarily change how you feel about dystopian culture if we are venturing towards a reality that resembles closer to that kind of stuff? That feels closer to that kind of stuff?

I know that when I read World War Z 10 years ago or whatever, I was like, this is fucking awesome. And like the level of thought he gave to every single permutation of how like what Max Brooks did where he was just like, what if this happened? So how would the CDC react and how would the Israeli army react and what would China do and what would be the response within the continental United States? And I was like, this is fucking awesome. And now if I read World War Z today, I think I would feel a little bit like,

yeah, right. This is like a little on my turf right now. It's kind of like Children of Men is a movie like that where it's like based on the book by PD James, which is a little, for those of you think about reading it, a little bit of a slog. That's a movie that feels like it could have come out yesterday when you watch it today with all the issues of like dwindling resources and response by like an over like a right wing government to immigration and just this. it feels a little too close. It felt pretty close to the bone when it came out and whatever it was, 06. And now it just feels like, man, I can't even watch this. Yeah.

I mean, we typically define escapism as something like, I want to go into Battlestar Galactica or something and get out of here and not even think about, like, terrestrial problems. Or I want to have, like, you know, just be in like a world that I really love, like, you know, like a huge. Grant Romcom or something like that where it's just like not impacted by this stuff at all. But for me, like for a long time, like I just really enjoyed these kinds of stories. And, you know, I saw one of the things I wanted to talk to you about was that this week got

announced that Patrick Somerville and Hero Moray. So Somerville who worked on leftovers and worked on Maniac and Hero who worked on Maniac with him and it's obviously big with, you know, does a lot of Atlanta and Barry and is one of my favorite filmmakers. They're making Station 11 for the Warner streaming media service that's coming. out. And Station 11, I mean, I haven't had actually a chance to read the novel, but it's Emily St. John Mandel, and it's about an outbreak of swine flu, right? And like, what happens to the world when most of the population is killed off? Yeah, it's a flu, they call the Georgia flu in the book,

and it progresses extremely fast. It's a just tremendously insightful and beautifully written book that wraps back to the beginning of itself in really interesting ways. Don't want to spoil it at all. It's great. I think it's my best airport book by ever. But I am so excited for this. Like there are, I don't know like what the structure of this is going to be,

but there are some reveals and things that happen in this story that are, in the form of episodic TV will be shattering. Yeah. Like really cool. Airport reads is a good list I think my all-timer is still the ruins Ooh

Did you ever read that? I didn't read it but I would love to The book is like It's basically like It's got annihilation vibes But it's a little bit more page turnery It's these kids who go on a trip And I think they're in I guess it's in Mexico

And then they go to go visit these ruins And shit starts happening Like the ground starts coming out of it They made a movie out of it but the book is phenomenal as like an airport or beach read. Yeah, wow, that's, what would your, so what would your top three airport reads be? That's a great question. I mean, I can just burn through Elmore Leonard's.

Yeah, that's easy. And they're so dialogue heavy and so spare and, like, quick moving that you always feel like you're turning the page. I find that, like, when I'm on a plane, if I get, like, very dense into, like, internal monologue or, like, reflection, it just makes me really tired. But if it's, like, if it's plot heavy and moving, I can, I can rock with that. man, I just, I was actually talking my wife the other day about this, about like, she was like, what do you want to do this summer, like, as a trip or something? And I was like, my, the thing I want to achieve is like the five or ten times in my life, that feeling when you're like, I'm getting sunburned reading like my favorite book I've ever read. And like, I just don't even want to

move for six hours. And all, only thing I want to do is either jump in a pool or jump in the ocean for a second, but then I just want to come back and read. And that actually happened with me with Tree of Smoke, the Dennis Johnson book. But that's not quite, a beach read. A little bit more intense than a beach. Do you have other ones besides Station 11? 112263, the Stephen King. Oh yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Which is really, some might disagree with it, like kind of a comeback book for him, I thought. And then what else? I don't know, Rule of Bone by Russell Banks, which is like a weird kind of like trustafarian crime novel. Is the best way to describe it? Really interesting book.

Russell Banks, who, like, weirdly had a lot of movies adapted, like, in the 90s. And he's like, his stuff is usually pretty epic and muscular, like, cloud splitter, right? He did, like, the John Brown book, didn't he? Anyway, long story short, I was the reason why I was bringing up Station 11 was like, I am super excited for this. Yes, me too. By all means, Warner Media come to my house and liquidate my savings account. Yeah. Warner Media steal my identity and buy drugs on the black market with it.

infect my cells with Georgia flu and drown me in my own like sputum. But in this in this sort of context of how we're living now and where we're living now and what's going on in the world, it is, I think that my reaction to it is a little tempered. It's not like what could happen if things break bad. It's like things are kind of going bad. Well, I mean like there's, you know, at any given day you can open up the New York Times and see in 20 years no more fish or something. That is sick.

It's honestly alarming. Like, I tweeted this as a joke semi-recently, but it's like almost something I believe now. I kind of feel like the only thing that's going to, like, save us from climate change is banks being like, oh, no one will be able to pay off their student loans if we let the planet die. So we, like, have to fix this so we can get our money. We have to keep the planet alive so that we can collect. Yeah, our house. We're just not going to collect. Yeah.

I almost believe that now. And then there's that New Yorker article for maybe a year and a half ago about like how the super rich are planning to flee North America for New Zealand. Yeah, yeah. And they're building like multiple bunkers with like water supplies and they have like pilots at the ready. In the first episode. So the years and years takes place in Manchester. Yeah. And in the first episode, one of the main characters played by Russell Tovey.

I think he was in skins He plays like a guy who works at the Manchester Basically like the immigration center where like they process all these Ukrainian refugees who were leaving Because Russia has invaded Ukraine and taken over And he's about to drive to work and he picks up a neighbor to take her to like To the subway or the tube or whatever And he's like oh did you used to live in London? And she's like yeah but you know you can't really go south of kensington unless you're means tested

So basically, I imagine it means, like, you have to be of a certain wealth to get into London. But that's, like, if you actually go to London. Yeah, right. It's not inconceivable. Like, my cousin who lives there, who's a lawyer, bought, like, a small apartment in Dalston, but, like, very, very small. You know, it's like, it is weird to be confronted with these things that are supposed to be hypothetical or, like, projected out. And then you're like, oh, wait, but that's actually pretty close to reality. Yeah, it's wild.

to like step back and be like a thing that we take for granted as normal now is people basically begging for money on the internet when any kind of medical emergency happens. Like that's just the thing we're like, oh yeah, that's what that's what you do now. And it feels like it's straight out of like a David Foster Wallace book or George Saunders book like as some kind of like massive creeping corporatism like taking over our lives. But that's like a thing that we're just like, oh, yeah, a normal person who has like a good job is now being like, hey, please Venmo me.

Do you find right now, are you like in this post-thrones stuff, like post-thrown zone that we're in for you? Are you listening or like you watching or reading stuff that's like still pretty intense? Like I know I got you to watch a couple episodes of Too Old to Die Young. But I think Too Old to Die Young is, I mean, I said this to you yesterday. I was like, that's post-entertainment. Yeah, it's like, it's it's post-television,

it's post-aesthetics, like it's post-story, yeah. Post-dialogue, it's just like intense vibes. I was watching the eighth episode today. I'm still committed to this thing.

It's one of the most amazing things I've ever encountered in like the context of Amazon putting it out, of its length, of who's in it, of what they're doing, of what's depicted. I just can't. believe it happened, but I can't also

in good conscience tell people to watch it. But for me, it is like, it's answering a really deep and dark desire I have to see just the most fucked up thing I can. But... So fuck up. I watched the episode today in which John Hawks coughs

for five minutes. That's the thing. This show is simultaneously the most cocaine-drenched production I've ever seen. get actual cocaine wafting down upon on people's skin. Yeah. And that happens.

Yes, that happens. And the most languidly, lazily paced, like, I was watching the first episode. And Miles Teller, his character is talking to his partner. And his partner says something to him. And then there's just like a pause. as they stare at each other across this like small amount of space. Like a foot. Yeah, like a foot, like outside.

I go to the kitchen to like quick make a snack. I come back. Miles Teller has not responded yet. And that's the pacing of this entire thing. Yeah. It's very slow shots that start like on the ground of like drug dealers boots and then like a very slow pan up. Like, and then you see like people tied to railings who have been like beaten within an

inch of their life and it's all in slow-low and people just scaring. Mass executions. I mean, it's just like absolutely gruesome. It's the wildest show. But it's just almost completely divorced from like signifier. Right. There's nothing. It's actually, it is closer to just pure experience. Right. Like when you're watching it and I've trained myself now to

not even care, there was just a shot that I was watching where I don't even know where this is. It's somewhere in California or somewhere in Los Angeles where like Jenna Malone is walking and Miles Teller's walking behind her and they're having this conversation and at certain points

Miles Teller will stop walking but the camera will keep tracking with Jenna Malone and then Miles Teller will catch up and then the camera will start going the other way and they'll turn around and all they're doing is walking back and forth across what looks like an inlet

or a bay in Los Angeles back and forth back and forth for like five minutes and having a really inane conversation but I start to like basically derive pleasure from the literal physical movement of the camera and the composition Like, you're having an almost primal reaction to light and vision.

Aesthetically, it is absolutely arresting. He does so much with, like, shots in the background and just the slow pace, and then something will happen, like, quickly. Yeah. And it is startling. But, like, to try and discern a deeper meaning to any of this is wild. I've been reading three-body problem by, I'm going to probably. butchered the name of the Chinese author Lu Xijin, which is a multiple award-winning trilogy

about a confrontation between Earth and an alien civilization. Okay. The author was recently profiled in The New Yorker. Really interesting because of the parallels between U.S. and China relations with the author, understandably really downplays. It's one of these, the first book is another one that's a slog, but I've just started the second book, and it's like the largeness of the ideas and tying like multiple things together like the Industrial Revolution,

the information revolution, the environment, the way that a culture on the rise would perceive environmentalism versus an established culture would perceive environmentalism. and there's, you know, betrayal and spying and subterfuge across vast distances. It is like a mind-blowing book. Yeah. A series of books. And it's been... Would you call that an airport read?

Airplane read? It's, I mean... Or is it more of like a sit-down and study kind of thing? No, I would say it's an airport read because it's the plot. It really moves in terms of, like, the plot. When you really start... And the New Yorker article reads. talks about this. Like when you start to look at it through the lens of U.S.-China relations,

it's really fascinating. So it's like there's this alien civilization that has been contacted by the Earth, by actors on the Earth. And because that civilization's environment is really hostile, they've been looking for a place to move to. So now they're launching an invasion of Earth. and Earth's security forces perceive this invasion as like, you know, existential. They won't get there for 400 years, but they're like, yeah, they're technologically, they're so far ahead of us. Meanwhile, that civilization is much weaker than it seems, like very creaky. And there's like a, there's, so it's this kind of battle between a civilization on the rise, which is Earth, which is kind of like progressed from the industrial revolution to an

information revolution in only a few centuries, versus this established much, much older, much more hegemonic alien civilization that's also weaker than it seems. And there's like, you know... What's it called again? The three body problem. Three, okay. That's interesting.

It's really good. So, in a very roundabout way, the last thing I wanted to ask you about before I let you go is just, you know, we've been talking a lot in the last couple of weeks on the pod with David Sims. with Allison and with a bunch of people like where it's just an interesting time of like watching different upstart streaming services or streaming services that haven't even launched yet from some of the major companies gather their forces before before whatever happens in the next

year or two when all these companies all these platforms are up and running and today or the last two days it was announced that the office would leave Netflix in 2021 and that NBC Universal even though they were the original producer of the office had to rebid for the rights to stream it and won the rights, beating out Netflix for the rights, by paying $500 million over five years for the office, that will start in 2021.

So obviously I think the Comcast site will be up by then or the Comcast platform will be up by them. I'm just saying that nothing goes forever. So I could just imagine a time where by 2021, the office is not as like hyper-meamable and rewatchable because like just people have watched it. Yeah. And I guess like I can understand people are like, yeah, it's on Netflix,

so I've watched it three or four times. But just as like man on the street, you love the office? I do love the office. It's a great, you know, many people I know love it also, and they just love to have it on while they do stuff. Do you love it as like wallpaper, or is it the kind of thing that you're like, if that's the price of admission to another streaming service,

I will pay for that streaming service. Well, we're going to find out. Ryan Feldman wrote a good article in New York MAG about how this kind of bifurcation of IP off of, you know, very streaming platform, off of Netflix, basically, to Comcast, whatever Comcast's platform. It's kind of like, as this IP is taken off of these centralized sites, we're entering at like a time when the kind of environment will be right. for internet piracy once again. Yeah. Get back on your torrents, get your lime wire back up.

But for the office. Yeah, and I think that, you know, I think this, we're going to find out. Certainly shows like the office, just the fact that Netflix is bidding that much for it shows you that. And that Universal outbid them. Outbid them.

Because Netflix apparently bid 90 a year. Yeah. And Universal did 100 a year. Shows you that they view it as something that draws people to the platform more than just you know, birdbox

and like the stuff that they do in house. The thing is weird though is like the office has been on like Comedy Central and WGN like it's funny to me that people are, it is something about Netflix's interface and the fact that you can just hit play and let it go

that like you could just tape all the offices off of cable if you had DVR or you could probably find them online if you were really looking for them but there's something about the ease of use and the access people have to it that's so different than I almost wonder whether or not

when people are given that hurdle of like the office is leaving. First of all, I mean, you could probably watch the office three times between now and 2021 anyway. But by the time that happens, whether people will be like,

yeah, well, there's something there. It's on Netflix now that replaces the office, whatever it is. Now, I'm not saying that there's something special about the office or that there doesn't have a unique quality

that is rewatchable in the same way that Friends is. But I was like happy to watch how I met your mother when it was on Netflix. You know what I mean? And now I watch it sometimes on Hulu or whatever. But like that kind of like, oh, it's there. So I'm watching it is a huge part of the popularity of this thing.

I think that you're probably right. On the other hand, it seems to me like this is like an acknowledgement that like hits still matter. You know, like in a certain respect. It's not just, oh, this thing is there and I'll watch it. You know, like the office was a hit for NBC. Is it for Netflix? Universal took the bet that, hey, it'll be a hit for us when we start our platform up. And I think that, you know, if you look at the history of entertainment, hits have always mattered.

So it's in a way kind of comforting to think that it's not just like, like, I'm not just going to stream whatever rom-com series Netflix has because it's there. People are still going to look for something that is, quote-unquote, they have an attachment to. Yeah. Yeah, I guess you're right. All right. Thank you so much for coming by. Thank you for having me. What's name of the book again?

The three-body problem by Liu Zijin. Okay, so, well, people, if you're looking for beach reads, there's that, there's still World War Z if you can handle it. War Z is great. And there's the ruins and there's a bunch of other ones. And then Jason and I obviously talked about a bunch of shows years and years and a bunch of other stuff. I'll put it up in the tweet. Thanks for listening. Jason, thank you for stopping by.

Gallagher's going to come by and talk about episodes three and four of Dark in just a second. Now I'm joined by Jason Gallagher. Thanks for having me. Man, you are just racking up stats on this podcast. I know. What a spring summer season for you? I know. You're a broadcaster now.

I know. To be on this show talking about this show, I mean, I never thought it would have happened. Here's the problem. Neither of us are intellectually equipped to be doing this. At all. At all, at all. I was a kid in school who we would do like a basic level of math or science and I would be like fine.

And as soon as it got at all complicated. I'd be like, I can't do this. And they'd be like, oh, do you need like a special, do you need like a tutor or like health or anything? And I'd be like, no, I just don't. I like, I'll, whatever you think I, like, let's just say I do. Yeah.

But I just don't want to do it. So I'm the guy who like hits fast forward on the podcast button when they start getting into cap stuff. I'm just like, it's going to happen or it's not going to happen, baby. Yeah. Anti-cap guys. What a great NBA podcast. We'll take that to Bill.

Gallagher's here to talk with me about dark. Obviously, Dark is an obsess. of this podcast. It is, I suppose, it's niche, but I wouldn't know because Netflix doesn't tell us. I think it's an international hit, but they dedicated, you know, obviously Andy and I talked a lot about the first season. Gallagher's been here to talk about the second season. The second season is super dense. It's so dense. It's really hard to keep up. The first two episodes are among are among the more difficult to understand pieces of television I've seen, only because it's been such a long time since the first season that you're like, okay, and this person is somehow

dating their own aunt or something. Yeah. Like, there's a little, lot of time travel. You and I try to casually talk about it in your office on Monday. Well, this is why I wanted to have you back on. It was actually hilarious. Gallagher and I were talking about three and four of season two.

So that's ghosts and travelers, I think, are the name of the episodes. And essentially, the thing we need to sort of start talking about. Yeah. And we could just try to recreate my office conversation if you want to, but like this idea of the

bootstrap paradox, which is something the clockmaker, this is I just wonder what somebody who'd doesn't know what we're talking about, feels about this. I suppose that person is Kayam. The Booth Draff paradox. I've heard it described in my very general sort of Googling of like an eight ball, when an eight ball gets hit by a white ball.

A cue ball? You're not much of a pool shark, aren't you? This is a full shark show either. Remaking a color of money with you. Yeah, I'm just hoping somebody challenged me. What if I was just like a shark? Oh, yeah. This is all a con.

You're like the green carpeting that you play on, and then you go out and you're like fast at you felt something. But it's like you hit the eight ball, it goes into a hole, but then the eight ball comes out and then like hits the white ball. It's like, when does it start? When does it begin? Yes. And I think it's, please just go out on this, on this plank with me here. But I think what this is supposed to be is Dark's version of cause and effect, I think.

But essentially like, okay, so there's the Marty McFly thing. Yes. And back to the future. Let's just take the primary text of time travel. Easy. And it is essentially like, well, if he's. goes back in time and his parents never meet, he won't be born, hence he disappears from the photograph.

Exactly. In dark, I think it seems to say that instead of it being on a line, it's on a loop. Yes. And so if, say, a character like Jonas or Claudia go back in time to do some things, then the beginning is happening at the same time as the end. I'm not claiming to understand it. There's no, there's basically what happens. happens with the bootstrap bootstrap paradox is that there once that's once that cycle starts to

happen there is no birth right everything is is the birth and i think the easiest way to explain it with regards to the show is the book a journey through time and how it enters the show and how it enters the author uh the author's world because basically um what's his name hg something let's Tan House. Tan House. Yeah, the guy who writes the book. Right. So Tan House supposedly wrote this book on time travel.

However, the book was given to him by a time traveler. Yeah, he quote unquote wrote a book that was just given to him. Right. So that's like the clearest understanding for me about the bootstrap paragraphs is when does this book actually begin. Right. There is no birth for this book. It's always existed. It just exists.

Number one Google result for bootstrap paragraphs. Was it the pool thing? Astronomytrack.com. And they say the bootstrap paradox is a theoretical paradox of time travel that occurs when an object or a piece of information sent back in time becomes trapped within an infinite cause-effect loop. Yeah. In which the item no longer has a discernible point of origin. Right.

It's said to be uncaused or self-created. So that obviously applies to the travelers, I guess. And yeah, within the object, it's the book. and now we're playing around with the idea that it's humans. Claudia and Jonas and Noah, who obviously go traveling through time a lot. Right. But it's basically the reason why Jason and I

spent half an hour in my office sounding literally probably insane is because we were trying to figure out if the character of Ulrich goes from 2019 or whenever the present tense is, and then he goes back to the 50s, right? Right. and his son

Mickle Michael McKell goes back to the 80s correct where he in one timeline

meets Hana right and father's Jonas but in another timeline is Ulrich's son right

see I think it's all the same timeline but if Ulrich goes back to the 50s right and never but young Ulrich

still exists. This is the thing that you and I were battling, and I think we never came to a conclusion on which... But Katerina, like, Ulrich's wife sees a picture of Mikkel in a 1986 class photo in a yearbook, and it starts crying because she's like, that's my son. Right. And in her experience, in her reality, McKell was her son who went back in time, but he's also somehow Michael who commits suicide in the first episode of the whole series. Correct. So... I don't know. There's not a question. I don't know how to explain it because at one point you were like, well, they can't exist at once. Well, if we could explain, we wouldn't be working at the fucking ringer.

We would be. This is true. We would be so. Somewhere somebody's listening to this being like, man. You think we have a lot of astrophysicists? I don't know. You tell me. In the subscriber base, I'll have Kyra on a search.

So are you saying that two people cannot exist at once? No, I think they do. Yeah. But I'm wondering whether or not. Basically, each one of these timelines, all of which appear to have an apocalyptic event hanging over them in each timeline. Right. And this idea that there are these 33-year-old cycles, shout-out to Bill Simmons, the birdmester, every 33. Who knows? He's a traveler.

Yeah, maybe. What if? Yeah, he's aging well. He was just like, instead of like, you know, investing in stocks or doing anything like that, he's just like, I'm going to call it. Well, that's what happens in Primer. Did you ever see Primer? No. Primer is this time travel movie that Shane Carruth, the guy made Upstream Color.

I mean, it's this first movie, and it's this amazing, basically, like, these two dudes living in, like, I think it's supposed to be Silicon Valley, but, like, it's way before Silicon Valley of Silicon Valley. And they're engineers who, like, are trying to get, like, inventions off the ground and working out of the garage, and they invent a time travel machine, and they immediately start betting on March Madness. That's... Why not? But it's not like an Adam Sandler thing. Like, they just are like, I'm going to go back in time and bet on Michigan, I think. Okay. Which is pretty cool.

I think it's cool. I lost my train of thought. That's what happens with this show. So basically the point is that these separate timelines, which at least originally were the ones we're concerned with, one happens in the 50s, one happens the 80s, one happens in the present day. We also get stuff that happened in the 1920s in these third and fourth episodes,

but that these are basically distinct realities from one another. So just because Ulrich goes back in time doesn't mean he never fathered McKell with Katherina and cheated on her with Hana, et cetera. Yeah. I mean, the reason why I think Ulrich is is just because of the way, in the context of which he was presented in the show,

when they're talking about the bootstrap paradox, they kept cutting to Ulrich and in the book. And so I'm trying to figure out, in my head, this is where it starts to hurt, how Ulrich is, but I can't, like, I literally have given up in my brain. Well, because he also says to Egonne at one point before, like in the first season, I think we see him listening to that metal band,

creator. And then when Egon meets him, he says a line from that band's lyrics and then the Egon's like, but that album didn't come out until after you told me that. So how did you know that? Yeah. And it's just wild funny to imagine Egon Teatim and this old

ex-cop like listening to metal anyway. Yeah. Okay, so take all of that stuff that we didn't solve and I hope you found it vaguely entertaining. If you're watching Dark, I'm sure you're having the same questions. Yeah, it's really hard to understand. Everybody I know who's watching the show watches it, like, with either a self-made chart or, like, using the dark dot Netflix site.

I basically think my thing on Ulrich is I think, I mean, he's obviously, he's clearly that old version of him is a traveler, a quote-unquote traveler, the way that other people are travelers. There's just, now I'm starting to get, and again, my head starts to hurt, but now I'm starting to get into this world of people who are, who know what they're doing travelers and people who don't know what they're doing travelers. Right. And Noah. and then Jonas is like, well, young Jonas isn't good at it, old Jonas is. Young Jonas is like just like, oh shit, I jumped into the 20s and I can't get back into the cave. Mickle is like an unknowing traveler and then, you know, Ulrich clearly is as well, which kind of leads us, I don't know, I don't know if you want to transition.

And then he, Jonas was able to take Hana back. Yeah, do you want to start talking about like the changing nature of what's good and what's evil in the show? Well, I was just going to say start getting into episode four. Did you want to start getting into that or not? Yeah, I mean, so the first two episodes of this, season were incredibly dense and also slow moving because you're like, okay, I try to remember the connections between these people and what

their relationships were. And there's like, honestly, like 15 characters that are relevant. And so it's really hard to wrap your mind around. Second episode's pretty good. Third episode gets really good. That's where we start following Claudia as she sort of emerges as this counterweight to Noah, we think.

Yeah. And she sort of starts to understand her responsibility because she gets visited in 1986 by her older self. and seems to take on this responsibility and then seemingly sacrifices herself at the end of three, the episode three, right? Right. Where she knows she's going to be killed by Noah

and allows it to happen and allows him to find the notes. Everything that happens in this show, though, you have to say, like, well, is this part of the continuation of a cycle or is this someone trying to break the cycle? I think originally you're supposed to think Claudia is a good guy

for the lack of a better term. and Noah certainly does not seem to be a good guy since he abducts children to conduct time travel experiments on him. Typically, that's a bad sign. It's a bad look. I don't think you're allowed in a school zone if you do that. But at the end of episode four, travelers, as we follow Jonas and we kind of see the people in the current,

the present day start to accept this time traveling reality, that that's something that's where their kids went, basically, time traveling. Jonas also goes back to the 1920s, as a teen gets stuck there meets Adam who you and I in the last pod were like okay who's Adam now

like does he get mentioned a lot and we find out that Adam is Jonas boom boom boom bum bum I was when did you when did you suspect that that was the case when the way that

well okay so I started to think about like who in this world could be Adam but I for whatever reason Because he looks like Dan Aykroyd from nothing but trouble. So you know underneath of that he's like one of these people. But I honestly didn't think it was, it never crossed my mind that it would be Jonas. And it wasn't until like the camera started framing them similarly, like they were looking in a mirror. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was like Alexander Tiedeman.

Because he like arrives mysteriously, doesn't he in the first season? Well, yeah. When the cop really makes it a big deal, the lead investigator makes it a huge deal. And in fact, when he's putting up his maps and all that stuff of all the people, in the town for his investigation, he puts Alexander Tiedeman's name, just cooler, I believe, Alexander Cooler, just across everybody. Right. And then...

But they go in the cave. Yes, and they presume... Right. And the adults are starting to all... And they have a time machine, which suggests that they will probably go time travel. Right. And the adults are now in the loop on time travel, like a bunch of the adults, a lot of the parents. I'm now starting to think, is everybody just a different first...

version of one another. And like now my head is starting to really freaking hurt because. But what do you mean by that? I don't even know, honestly. I'm just sort of like, when I said that there are different types of time travels, there are people that are fully aware of what's happening. And then there are people who are just kind of like stumbling in and don't really know.

And it's like if you're continually time traveling, are you. And now. So that would speak to why the cop and four, the detective who's arrived. is like, A, really jacked to investigate this. Yes. And I think at one point they're like, why did you request this? And he's like, oh, yeah, I request this. Yeah, and I wanted to be.

Two, he is like really obsessed with the fact that no one from this town ever seems to leave. And the guy is like, oh, well, the nuclear power plant has always provided for people here. So there's good work here so you stay. Yeah. But sometimes with shows what happens is like you get a little bit of that Truman effect feeling where you're like, is this the aesthetic of the show or is there something off about this? So essentially, everybody who lives in Winden, which seems to be very idyllic and wonderful, never ever seems to leave Wendon or acknowledge the world outside of Wendon.

Right. So if that's the case, there might be an extra layer to what is happening in this town vis-a-vis like the larger world. That's where my head starts to get at. is that I just sort of wonder if everyone in this town is just a different version of themselves and all this stuff if everyone's their own aunt or so, you know, like, I don't even know. Or if there's only a certain amount of characters and then there are characters that are like permutations of those characters, right? Right. Because that guy, like, at one point, I mean, there's, it's, it's joked about, but Jonas at some point says, like, my uncle is sleeping with my mother, right?

Who's also my grandmother, you know, like, or something like that. And even at one point, Jonas says to Catarina, your son, who is also my father, right? Yeah, which is a, which I thought was like, and he's like, you're my grandmother. Which was hilarious to just say out of context, especially to a woman who just, it's like, I don't laugh during this show very often,

but she's looking, she discovers that her missing child might be in back in time, her husband might be back in time, and then a weird bearded old man is like, I'm your grandson. Like, completely out of contact. Kaya. Yes. What do you make of this conversation?

It's nice to hear your guys' brain slowly unravel. Oh, my God. What a weird pod. Yeah, no. I support it. Do you have any other notes you want us to drop? I think that's it for me. I'm so curious as to see what Adam slash Jonas is planning.

Phenomenal or feel. The way they slow roll that and he like goes into like the different vaults. And he's just like, why, like, you know, where am I? I just want this to end and he's just like, I've come to the conclusion that it will end for everybody. Yeah, it seems like, I just don't understand. I'm so curious about the motivation of Adam, obviously, like, and what the motivation of adult Jonas is now. Like, where, what's his game?

And does Noah deviate from Adam's plan in the 50s and 80s, or is he still? Because, wait, Noah shoots Claudia in the fifth. 50s, right? Yes. I do not know the time. I think he shoots Claudia in the 50s when his sister gives him the pages, right? Correct. Yes, that's good. Or she gives him the newspaper cutting that says this will happen. Right. Claudia's like, you don't have to do this. He does it. He gets the final pages from the diary of... He doesn't like what he sees. And he doesn't like what he sees. And then later in the in the next episode, Jonas is like, Claudia betrayed everything that she was supposed to stand up for. Right. And we don't know what that is. Right.

I assume that the deaf girl who's been hanging out winds up being the woman in the dystopia with the machine gun, right? I mean, yeah, she's doing, yes. Yeah, okay. Okay. That would be wild if that was not her. Yeah, it would be wild if they were like,

no, it's another one. It's another deaf girl who looks just like her. But I wouldn't put it past the show. I know. It's true. Didn't you know that? Yeah. Fuck.

Okay. I think that's it. Obviously, we were talking about this in a very like close micro-grained way where we're just basically trying to work through our limitations as as humans as humans I love this show

I spent the earlier part of the episode today talking with Concepcion about escapism and how in some ways like there's like this cognitive dissonance if you're watching like something too light but if you watch something that's too dark you're like I could just look at Twitter for this

right. This is right where I want it. I feel the exact same way I've told you I've kind of like rebelled against the heavy. I watched murder mystery like a week and a half ago. Like as a choice, on purpose. We did that. Yeah. Congrats. Thank you. I got through it. It was fine. You're one of 30 million people apparently. You dialed that up. So now I need dark. And dark is perfect. Yeah, dark is perfect. All right. We'll keep talking about it. So probably Monday Gallagher will come through and we'll do maybe five, six, seven. You tell me. You're on five already. So you just just need to tick it along a little bit.

That's right. Your wife's not watching this. She would not want to do that. Okay. Yeah, I'll do whatever you want. All right, man. Gallagher, thank you. Kaya, thank you. Watch listeners, thank you. Watch Facebook group. How's it going? What's up?

Talk to you guys on Monday. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by yesterday. Yesterday, in theaters, June 28th is a movie from Danny Boyle in Universal Studios, and it imagines a world where only one person remembers the existence of the Beatles. The movie stars Lily James, Ed Shearin, Kate McKinnon, and newcomer Hamesh Patel. and when the first trailer dropped for yesterday, we at the ringer had a lot of questions

about what would happen to the world as we know it without the Beatles, many of which we're still thinking about today in partnership with Universal, we wanted to discuss one in particular. Kaya, my producer is here to help me with this one. There's a little bit of a generation gap with me and Kaya, but I wanted to ask you, Kaya,

do you think Britpop exists without the Beatles? Well, Chris, as I mentioned prior to this, I'm not entirely sure what Britpop is. So back in the 90s, get your sepia-toned photo album out. Back in the 90s, there was this whole thing called the Brit Pop Explosion. It was this moment in England when two bands, specifically, Blur and Oasis, ruled the charts. They were on the covers of the magazines and the music weeklies. They sold out arenas.

They beefed with each other in the media. And they defined the moment both in terms of music and fashion in their own different ways. And it was really exciting to watch from America, okay, because we thought we were about to get our own British invasion, which was essentially what happened with the Beatles and the Six. 60s, especially when songs like Blurrs, Girls and Boys, and Oasis's Wonderwall became hits. Are you fan of either of those songs? I do like some Wonderwall. Okay.

Are you down with, do you know girls and boys? No. Here's the thing. What does this have to do with the Beatles? Right. Well, Oasis and Blur represented two sides of the Beatles in a lot of ways. Oasis were the band as a gang thing, that the Beatles had that too. They had the same look, the same haircuts, and Oasis's singer Liam Gallagher sounded a lot like John Lennon.

Blur, on the other hand, were art school kids, and they played characters and wrote sad, sometimes satirical lyrics about British life. So that was more of like the Paul McCartney vibe. No matter which band you preferred, you'd have to agree, neither would have been possible without the Beatles. Imagine that. The two biggest British bands of the 90s were both extensions of the Beatles. If the Beatles never came along, there is a good chance pop music, as we know it is completely different, to say nothing of the 90s phenomenon of Brit Pop. And who can imagine a world without Brit Pop? I can. I was a little too young for that era.

All right. Now you're making me feel old. Let me put it this way. Those bands were never a big deal for me. Okay, but did you like the spice girls? Sure. Okay, but if the Beatles never come along, there's a pretty good chance we had never got the spice girls, which were sort of the pop music version of the Brit Pop Explosion in the 90s. Because that idea of like a prefab pop group with each member having a different vibe and a persona and these infectious singles, that's all Beatles.

Well, thank God for that. So I think that pretty much answers our question about. about whether or not Britpop would have exist without the Beatles. That's going to be a no from us, dog. Nope. I think we answered that question about Britpop. To see if you have any other ones, why don't you watch the trailer today

and catch yesterday in theaters on June 28th?