The Watch - ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Hype With Mallory Rubin. Plus, Doug Dulgarian of They Are Gutting a Body of Water.

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Chris is joined by Mallory Rubin to talk about the trailer for the upcoming 'Game of Thrones' series ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ and why she’s so excited for the ‘Task’ finale (3:04). Later, he’s joined by frontman Doug Dulgarian of indie rock band They Are Gutting a Body of Water to talk about their brand-new album, ‘LOTTO’; what makes it so distinctively Philly; the stories behind some of Chris’s favorite tracks; and more (39:15). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Click here to stream 'LOTTO' Hosts: Chris Ryan Guests: Mallory Rubin and Doug Dulgarian Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producers: Jon Jones Additional Video Supervision: Michael Delgado Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, gusalcumab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur.

Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world.

The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now.

Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, a podcaster of the Seven Kingdoms. It's Mallory Ruben. Thrill of my life to be here with you to do some Baltimore Delco accent comparisons. Yes, Mal, thank you so much for doing this with me today. We're going to talk a little bit about task. We're going to talk a little bit about a Night of the Seven Kingdoms, the new Game of Thrones universe show. Yeah. Coming early next year on the HBO series. January 18th. By the way. Yeah. Also on this episode today is my interview with Doug Dolgarian from the band.

They are gutting a body of water, which is one of my favorite bands. And they put out a record today, tonight, called Lotto, which I hope everybody listens to. I really love talking to Doug. It does get pretty deep into underground rock references. Oh, okay. He was awesome. And I hope people check out the record and check out the interview. I'll do a little bit of an intro for that later.

Fantastic. Now, it's great to see you. Great to see you, man. Splendent with your Mediterranean tan must be nice. Have a bit of appealing sunburn, you know? Yeah, sure. I got to admit, when you were like, come in and see my tan yesterday, I expected a little bit more.

I did not say come in and see my tan. I said, will you be in? Will you be in? I have to make sure someone sees my tan. I have known you for 12 years, 13 years. 12 years, 13 years. And I don't think you've seen me with anything we could even pretend was a tan once in that time. So I got...

When you got back from your wedding, right? I don't think so. Okay. Honestly. No. Maybe. I don't think so. I've... That's all buried. I hope people are enjoying this. It's great to have you here. Great to be here, man. You know, this is my favorite podcast. It is. And I don't mind saying it. We're not supposed to have favorites, but I do. And it has always been The Watch,

and it remains The Watch. That's Me Time. When I get to listen to The Watch, I told you that one of The things I do when I travel, as you know, is listen, I download a bunch of episodes of The Watch, and I listen to them on the plane, and you guys might be saying, well, if The Watch is your favorite podcast, how could you have anything left to listen to listen? Well, I'm not always current. On the shows you're covering, that might come up today. This is our cross to bear. But then I bank them. They're all there for me. If a plane goes down and I'm on it, I want your voice to be the last out here. I wonder if that is like the, oh, there's a baby on this plane so they won't go down because why would God take an innocent baby from the world?

So you really have been reading about spirituality? Or like if there's a famous person and you're just like, God, there's no way, you know, if Julia Roberts is on this plane, like that's not going to be her end. So I'm safe on this flight. If someone's listening to the watch. If somebody's listening to the watch, if Greenwald is like minute three of monologue, you know, like it's no way. There's just no way this plane's going anywhere but to the airport.

I wanted to have you on because like, um... Tell me. I just don't think you've had a chance to really comment on a night of the seven kingdoms yet. For those who don't know, Mal and Joe did a three-hour podcast about a two-and-a-half-minute long trailer. Okay, let me do some real-time fact-checking on what appears to be a real-time intervention. Okay.

As you primed me four-mear moments ago. Two hours and 46 minutes, not three hours. You're an editor. You should be precise. Okay. There was some opening banter. Uh-huh. You love some opening banter, so you love some opening banter.

should support that. Then we did a brief New York Comic-Con news roundup. Sure. So that some of the runtime went to that. Then we did about two hours. Okay. Of spoiler-free trailer talk. And then there was a book corner. Spoiler full talk. Which, uh, you know, the runtime builds because we're being so thoughtful about the listeners and want to make sure that the spoilers are all quadrined off in a safe marked space. So it's really for you that the pod is two hours and 46 minutes. I watched

this trailer and loved it. I, you know, but I did you? I don't know any. I didn't read these novellas as I've not read a single word that George Martin has ever written. No, you've just read a lot of wiki entries. A lot of a lot of song of Ice and Fire epitia.

But I got to admit I did feel I did feel some like let's go some butterflies. Like yeah. There's something about this show, at least this presentation, and this comes from Ira Parker and George R.R. Martin pretty deeply involved in this one. George R. Martin is happy to tell everybody, the assembled at New York Comic-Con and anybody else,

that he's seen the six episodes, he loves them, and that they're very faithful to the book. The sub-tweets at House of the Dragon are robust, I would say. But there's a lot to be fired up about. I think, first of all, I've been banged this drum a lot. there has been a sad turn after, you know, during COVID and afterwards, with in terms of TV production where I think you can openly see whether it's restrictions or like it's actually just like the cost involved in having lots of people on set and having extras and having like building out a world with like human faces. Yeah. I think you can kind of see like just from the

shots of like the villages and stuff like that in this trailer that it looks like we are returning to kind of like that huge tapestry that Game of Thrones at its early season best was able to build where you're just like, look at that guy, look at that guy, like what's he doing back there? So that was really neat. And I want to talk to you about a couple of other things I've heard about this.

So the show comes from Ira Parker who, give me a little bit about him. Does he another... So he's working on House of the Dragon. Obviously, I think one of the things that, so Joe and I talked about this quite a bit in our long trailer breakdown, but one of the things,

let me pan even further back for just a second. How long did you say we guys? Dahlia out. It's okay. Go ahead. So a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, just genuinely a quick little bit of context here.

A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, this is the adaptation of the Duncan, Tales of Duncan Egg novellas, also packaged together and called A Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I'm on year 10 of pretending like I know who those guys are. Yeah. You're about to, buddy. I know.

You're fucking about to. So currently, to date, there are, stop me if you've heard this before, this is an unfinished text. It is an in-progress story. There are three novellas that have been published,

but promises of more to come. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So that's the only, like, the only bit of cold water I'll put on this is, like,

I do have some questions about how far they will go on their own versus, like, what the odds are of George, who has said he'll return to these novellas after he finishes once of winter, rip it off some more tales. But the novellas are,

sublime. Like, they are delightful. Are they your favorite pieces of Martin writing? No, but they are among my favorites. I would not say it's like absolutely number one top of the list, but I love all three of them. The first one, the Hedge Knight, which

season one is adapting, season one of this television show, is like a masterpiece. It is so full of charm and intimacy. I love hearing you say that you felt like we were back in like the kind of sprawling

scope and majesty of the realm, I think one of the great things about this novella on the season of TV is a tourney as a setting allows you to do both things at once. You're in one place. Tournament. Tournament, yes. You're in one place, you are rooted with this new set of characters, but because as attorney, there's a joust who's going to challenge the champions, so many people can be there. You can see all those familiar sigils. Oh, is that, I'm a Game of Thrones fan, I'm watching this trailer. Is that the crowned stag of House Barathean? It is. Okay, right? but also like, who are Dunkin Egg, as you said. Now, some people will know the answer to that.

Some people won't. And I think it's going to be a very welcoming space for anybody, no matter what your relationship is to the story or the characters. If you're like, I've never read any Song of Vice and Fire, could I start? And we got this mailbag question on House of Hour. This is a three-hour read. It is the easiest. So you say.

So an audiobook time says. So a Kindle read estimate time says. Yeah, I'm just being like with my shattered attention span. As I... Dude, you've been mainlining the spiritual texts. I have been. You're ready for this. Anyway, I think as always with Thrones,

there are dark elements to this and heavy elements to this, but there is quite a bit about it that is heartening and affirming, and I think it is a great time for this show. And while it is maybe not the like zeitgeist animating every single person alive is definitely going to watch this on Sunday night,

I am really hopeful that the people who do tune in will love it. Okay, so six episodes, three of them directed by Owen Harris or for a direct to my own Harris. And they're half an hour. And Sarah Deena Smith does the others. And they're half an hour. What do you, Mr. TV, make of that?

I think this is an ingenious idea by HBO, by Martin Industries, by, like. Okay. So your reaction was not, why isn't this a movie? It was, this is smart. No. My reaction was, this is the perfect time and the perfect, like, way to see if you can still, obviously, like, people have been anticipating these, this adaptation of these novellas for a long time.

but the execution of it is like such a without nothing critical about House of the Dragon such an antidote to like the heaviness of House of the Dragon

and honestly eight years ago or whatever I probably would have rolled my eyes when you told me that he hasn't finished Duncan Egg and that like we don't really know where this show is going to go truly who cares hopefully we'll all be alive in four years

and I should say we do know many things because there are things in the history that are established. It's a lot of like, I have tales to flesh out along the way. But if I had a criticism of House of the Dragon, it's that I am weak and I read what happens. You did.

And also, like, it's kind of playing out the way, you know, it feels like a fixed text when you're watching it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that there's, like, it's encumbered a little bit by its history, by the history of the realm and stuff and, like, telling all these, like, this massive story of a group,

of people who largely stand in rooms when they're not on top of dragons. And so it's become, I think it's like the idea of having something that is just almost like a little bit more alive and a little bit more free. And then yes, like the time invested in this is going to be enough

so that they can start to say like, okay, so like what could we do with this franchise? Right. And I think that we got through the Marvel Wars. And I don't even know, like, are they going to keep making TV shows? of Marvel stuff.

Like I seriously can't tell. Like we have Wonder Man on the sleep. Wonder Man's coming. The Vision show is coming. That's like the end of the vision, Agatha thing. And then maybe you could convince me that, you know, when X-Men comes,

there's just going to be too much stuff to not do a Wolverine show or not do a whatever show. Another season of X-Men 97 coming. Obviously different continuity, but still. Yeah. But if you want to keep this going as like a viable

vein to mine, you've got to have different kinds of looks for people and different entry points. And I think like having a six episode 30 minute, hey, it's not that much of an investment, you don't know these people, but you will, kind of thing is really, really smart.

I agree, and I think that there is something really pleasing and like that I anticipate a lot about a Thrones television show that people can calibrate. their relationship too. Right. So if you decide that all you want to do is spend 30 minutes a week for six weeks, for a month and a half, checking it out, I think you'll probably have a pretty good time. But if you decide that you want to pick up the novellas or read the World of Ice and Fire to learn about the this stretch of Targaryen rule or anything else, it is such a tantalizing, a moose bouch

to then present itself as an on-ramp into more I've been interested in so I didn't actually answer shockingly I didn't actually answer your question I just started talking but your question about Ira Parker one of the things that really struck me

watching the stream of the the Comic-Con panel and just like reading some of his interview quotes so far and seeing how he's talking about the show is this two things one he clearly loves the story yeah right and like I feel

like it can be kind of corny to point that out or say that, but it is important. You mentioned the MCU. It's like how many times have all of us over the years talked about one of the reasons it worked from, I mean, there are a million. Read Joanne. Read the Regimes bug, right? But among them was like Iron Man, which would never have been the choice, if not for rights control elsewhere and like a focus group responding to toys and stuff was that the people who were making that first Ironman movie, like, loved and understood the character. When you hear Ira Parker talk about these characters, you're like, this guy loves and understand the characters. And so whatever version the show takes from there, I believe, based on what we've seen so far, I'm confident

it will be rooted in like a core understanding of why that relationship between Dunk and Egg is a meaningful one to fans of the world. I wanted to ask you, though, the other Ira Parker thing that's stood out to me, I wanted to ask you what you'd make of this is that he is, um, so the marketing material is like tall tale that became legend, right? 100 years before Game of Thrones. They're really trying to root us. This is between the two television shows. And the other thing that they're really leaning into was timeline and where we are on the timeline is no magic.

And I was curious what you made of that because like I, of course, had a little bit of a, well, well, actually, well, wait, well, what does this mean about X, Y, and Z that I won't invoke here and spoil for people? but I do see the wisdom of, and I love magic and I love fantasy stories, but like... It's making a Star Wars show without the Force.

It's like, I think that there is a huge contingent of people who are like, I think for the same reason why I don't know, but I'm hoping that there are no dragons in this show. I think the dragons are supposed to be gone by now, right? Correct. So then that's the thing is like, I don't think, I have not perceived this at all

as like, there's no magic, so don't worry, this isn't like nerdy fantasy stuff, which I don't think is the, the vibe of the comments, and I would not want that to be the vibe of the comments. I think it's like we're trying to convey and establish where we are in the history of the realm, and this is going to be the essence as a result, this kind of like Arthurian swords and shields. Yeah.

Like, I am on an adventure and seeking to discover something about who I am and what I believe in, right? So I was wondering if you found that or personally compelling, but also thought that that would be like, and I quite enjoy House of the Dragon, but in the era of like we're waiting three years between seasons because we have so many CGI dragons to like make sure we can get up to snuff before we're ready to put another season out in front of you. If this was going to feel like a really welcoming warm bath to people. Like maybe we get one of these every like 12 to 18 months. That would be amazing if this was the slow horses of the Game of Thrones universe. Get Jackson Lamb in a night of the Seven Kingdoms immediately. I need his commentary on the joust.

He would not enter the list, but I think he would sit there. And whatever the Ashford Meadow version of like, I'm slurping on some noodles is while he's judging all of the champions and challengers, sign me up. I think that there's probably like a one way to look at this would be like, you know, this is the position Andy and I often take on Star Wars stuff, which is that like Andor kind of scratched the itch that we had had for 30, 40 years and that we don't need anything else. and we never, it's not about the force. And it's not to some extent, but I think when I think about what and or did so well and what I'm excited about, for instance, for this show and what was really great about Game of Thrones when it started,

is like, yeah, it had kings and princesses and stuff like that and dragons. But it also had people from nowhere becoming something. And there was like an arc to it. And sometimes when I think shows or movies or whatever, when you're relying on, now she's already the queen or she already has dragons or she, like this,

we come in and this person already has the force and is a Jedi master. There's just like a little bit less of a, of a runway to go on with the characters. It doesn't feel earned for you as a viewer because this person is already endowed

with everything. It's like, I like Luke Skywalker as a bratty teenager looking up at two murders and like being like, I want to get out of here. Binary sunset is like you could still argue to this day. It's a single best moment in, you know,

and in the history of like cinema. And the score kicks in and he's looking and he's longing. I agree. I think so. So sending people on a journey rather than having them already be at the seat of power is kind of interesting to me. So, okay, I have two thoughts and response to that. One, I think that if that is something you are looking forward to and craving,

there's a chance this is your favorite bit of throne. yet. I think that's probable. That's in play. Again, I haven't seen the show, so I don't know if it's good. But like, it's just a story. The run of Thrones is probably that period from Spoilers for Game of Thrones. I think it's fine. It's basically

post-Ned dead dying. And it's like the... Damn, that was a big spoiler. The chaos that kind of ensues from there and the rise up of rise and fall, of Rob, of John, of Littlefinger to some extent. Joffrey coming in and just like all of the like people who are outside of power rushing in to take it.

Yes. That was my favorite period of Game of Thrones. So I'm excited about some just random two dudes at a tournament. I'm sure they're not that random. This is my second point, which is I, my only bit of because there's also been a lot of like, we're rooted in Dunk's perspective, we're on the ground. And Dunk is the kid or the big guy? Egg is the kid.

Yeah. Dunk is Sir Duncan the top. Gotcha. You know, there's been a lot of like, we're rooted on the ground with the people of the realm, the exact thing that you're describing. And, like, the royals are present. You know, you can see in the trailer. You can see the Targaryen banners.

There's a blonde kid in it. I was about to say the trailer debut of, you know, Night Country fans, rise, seeing Finn Bennett. Aryan Bright Flame. Aryan Targaryen. Okay. His name is Ariel? name is Aryan Targaryen, the Bright Prince,

Aryan Bright Flame. One of my most anticipated pages of screen. Is he the current secretary of state in the United States of America? He's a piece of work, so I'm really looking forward to that character. One of my other favorite characters from the story, who is we don't, we, you can glimpse him in the trailer, he's not prominently featured in the trailer, but he is mentioned and that funny, like, are you Baylor-Targarian? No, then get the fuck out of the way moment. bailor chargers. The royals are, the ruling family is here. Lionel Barathean, the laughing storm is here. Like, lords and ladies and people of power are in the story. And I don't want to like overcorrect in framing it as like we're only hanging out with like people who are just mainlining bowls of brown and flea bottom. That's like not the case.

But the thing that you're describing and that journey and that arc and that spirit of like possibility and discovery, I mean, I would argue, and I know you would agree that, like, that can be very present in the, oh, wait, am I the chosen one? The story as well. Sure. But it is different. It's a different flavor. And that is certainly the flavor here. But, like, yeah, you will see the Targaryans in the story.

And people should expect that. It's Thursday now. We had the bridge from Game of Thrones and George R. Martin to the next topic is Fabian Frankel. You know, obviously, Sir Christ and Cole with us always. In House of Dragon. They just finished shooting season three, I think. I mean, we're going to get two Thrones shows next year.

When's the last thing that's happened? Is that ever happened? No. Are you excited to do Talk the Thrones two times in one year? You ready? I'm way more excited about Duncan Egg. I mean, I love working with you guys, but I would be way more excited about doing... You could have just said, yes, I can't wait to spend time with you guys.

I can't wait to spend time with you, yes. But that wasn't what you said. Was it? You are current on task. Yes, I am. As we head into the finale. I am. Have you gotten to talk about it?

Do you like it? No. Do you love it? I think it's fucking amazing. It's one of my probably three favorite shows of the year. I've loved listening to you and Andy talk about it. And I've loved watching the show. I'm pretty despondent that it's about to end. I am current through six.

I got back from my travels and I was a couple episodes behind and it was the first thing on my to-do list. I mean, I had some work to catch up on task. But on my television to do list, catching up on task. I was like, this is the most. So you did five and six when you got back? Yes. And boy. Well, those are some remotions.

So spoilers up until and through six, although if you're listening to the watch, you're probably like on Task Island with us. Yeah. I don't even know where to start. Let's talk about Fabian. Great. Did you think he had this in him?

Yeah, because I think, unlike Andy, I think he's great on House of the Dragon. You know, obviously we're big, we're big Kristen Cole. It's his specific part. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Now, have I been waiting for Grasso to take out a sword and start polishing it with a lemon, I have.

Yeah. You know, have I found myself in moments saying, will we get a spoiler for House of the Dragon? You wish it to spoiler for Thro and Zalachu, a more recent spoiler for House of the Dragon. You know, are we going to get any, like, diving into the royal muff a la, a la Kristen and Allison?

Not so, you know, more restraint. Yeah, Selva. From Grasso. I think that the performance has been great. I think the character is a highlight of the show, Grasso and Lizzie. same for me as for you. Just my, I mean, obviously, like,

it feels a little weird to say anything other than, like, the Robbie Tom scenes are actually the number one highlight of the show. Because, of course, yeah. Yeah, but, like, something about that Lizzie Grasso, because that was what we were anticipating

was Tom and Robbie, right? Was Ruffalo and Pelfrey. And so the absolute, out of nowhere, wallop of watching what developed in real time between Grasso and Lizzie is, like, the delight of the show to me. And Mave, too, like, the things that I wasn't,

prepared for the way I was like, you know, I thought Pelfrey on Ozark that that was one of the performances of like the decade. So I was thrilled to have him back on our lives in this show. And I love Roughlow. He's like an all-time favorite of mine. And I loved my Revistown. So I was really looking forward to the show. And I have not been disappointed with any of the things that I was anticipating. But the stuff that I had no real reason to like be looking forward to as much has just blown me away.

It's been sensational. And like I know I said this. I really have loved listening to you guys talk about it. like I think your conversations have been beautiful and the show is beautiful. Yeah, it's like, it's hard to like, I mean, we laugh about it and like we joke about it, but it's definitely moved me pretty deeply. So it's like, it's sort of like Annie and I have to like kind of go into this sort of tender zone when we talk about it. But yeah, I think that it was just really surprising for me.

I think I really did go into it. And I should have known better because mayor's not like this. Mare is like, you know, Winslet and Gene Smart sitting around and talking to the priest and like the kid having the band. And like there's so much life in Mare. It's not surprising that this is the same way. But like I just kind of thought like, oh, yeah, it's going to be way more about like moving drugs in Philly and like cops chasing who's hitting these stash houses. The mystery of this show is over like very fast. Yeah.

You know, like I think that when they take Sam home in the first episode, and it becomes obvious that it's like, Sam is like this vessel of hope for every person who gets their hands on him throughout this series. So it's been, that's not something I thought I was going to get. Like I didn't think about like, oh my God, this is about like building or rebuilding family and all this other stuff.

Yeah, I think like, I agree. I think that the fact that Robbie died in the panel ultimate episode is if you just pan back and look at like, okay, what might the flow of the season be? Not surprising. But in terms of the reality that it presents to us of like the show is going to conclude by being, on the one hand, plot-wise, about something different than we thought the show was going to be like a driving toward. But in terms of its theme and its core focus, that that somehow heightened and further unlocked the treatise that the show is actually exploring, which like, as you guys have beautifully discussed, you know,

this is a show about, obviously, like, loss and grief and remorse and longing. But the thing that I think that it's ultimately about is, like, this is a show about grace. Yeah. And what grace are you able to find for other people and grant to other people, but, like, really, what are you able to grant to yourself? Yes. And that is, like, an incredible thing to present, I think, quite subtly and in a very nuanced fashion, but still inside of like a pretty

propulsive action-oriented tail and like the majesty and splendor of the vistas and the locations and the fact that you can be in somebody's like beat up living room or at this astonishing quarry or a booth at a diner or in somebody's

car with a duffel bag on their lap or a person's body on their lap and like all of them are equally compelling to watch is incredible. And like the Robbie Shelley moment is, and just that sequence is really, to me, emblematic of like the genius of the show. Because it's just like, there's no characters wasted. Yeah, no characters wasted.

Shelly could just be like this background person who's like, Ray, don't do it, you know? And instead, good accent, thanks. And then instead it's like. Plays a crucial, pivotal role. And, and like, but it's almost, it screws around a little bit with the cliche of like, I'm a good person. And Robbie's like, oh my God, I'm a good person. Like, what are you talking about? And that's the thing, right?

It's like, okay, on the one hand, it would not be a good faith argument to say, what does it really matter in terms of the plot? Obviously, that's, like, hugely consequential in terms of the plot and everything that's really unfolding with Freddie and with the dark hearts and with Robbie and with his plan and the sacrifice and the money that'll go to me.

Of, like, all of that is carefully plotted and structured and paste and dispersed to us and the characters alike. but in terms of the good person thing why would Robbie who's like who the fuck are you and like why would I listen to you and why would I believe you for a second why are these the choices is also a show about grace

and forgiveness and loss but choice as well and like so what ultimately leads Robbie to like opt into this is it crazy Robbie always trying to figure out a way to make his life better and then realizes he's run out of opportunity to do that so it has to be make someone else I think in retrospect, it's like Robbie knows he's dead from the second.

Right. And also, though, I like to think about like he's looking at Shelley and saying, okay, and this is what happens with in a much more centered and like in the spotlight way at the heart of the show with Tom and Robbie, but also in a really quiet way in the corner happens with Robbie and Shelley is like the only common ground that these characters have with each other is I really wish I had a chance to like do something better for my family than I did before. I think he believes Shelley does and he knows he doesn't. But he's like, the only person who can help me is somebody as desperate as I am.

Because Mave is like, what the fuck are you talking about? When he's like, let's go to Canada. You know, like, and they honestly, like, they probably could have gone to Canada just with the money that they had. Like, they may get chased and it may be dangerous and all that. But, like, his thing about, like, I need this money to set us up for whatever, like, this island where there's no trash services and no schools. is like a dream. It's a pipe dream. And it's like, what he needs is to basically break through to the other side

where both like in the sort of like on the other side of life idea of it, but also he needs to just end this chase. He needs to stop being chased by the dark hearts. Stop chasing the dark hearts. He needs to get rid of these drugs. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a really beautiful show. And it's a really like special little diamond when it comes to like using

the crime stuff to like talk about much different things. Yeah, I thought that like Tom going to Grasso's house, incredible scene obviously. Yeah. The confession conversation which you and Andy talked about was really amazing. I thought like again, that was a scene that really showed how the little details in the show elevated into like God here status. Yeah, so Grasso's been asking about this for five hours now. Build up and build up the way that he thinks about sin and guilt and doubt and forgiveness, but even just something like he's basically in his pajamas.

Right? So, okay, if he and Lizzie Falk, he takes off his shirt and we see the tattoo, like, to build to the moment where you're finally seeing that like the extent of the, what was his relationship to his faith? Yeah. The way that that is on his body and presented to us in that moment versus an earlier moment. So purposeful, right? I'm coming for you, Grasso, then come, like chills. Incredible. And I like thinking about how, you know, obviously Ethan and his story. trial, everything with Grasso, like all of these things that maybe we thought,

we had no reason to think would be the final episode of the show, or now centered, but it's like, it's in some ways the show's version of you put the cold water on your shoulders so that your heart doesn't explode when you find out what you're really heading into, you know? So we have been acclimating without even realizing we were this entire time for all of these characters, all of these broken people to confront each other. Like, I'm really obviously quite worried about Mave. And, you know, you can see and I I've obviously not seen the finale. Like you can see in the,

um, just the, you know, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the, the, the, end of episode six, like, Jason and Perry are going to find her.

That's, like, really featured in the coming in the finale teaser. So obviously that's worrying. I hope Maeve makes it out. If she does, like, into what kind of life is she doesn't, I find my mind going to like,

does Tom take Harper and Wyatt too? Right. You know? Family Robbins in it? So, and in some ways it's like the plot particulars and weirdly the fates of the characters are like, obviously they are important and they matter to me because I'm really invested in these people's lives, but it's like the message feels so established already.

I think that the fact that the show is so heavy and really like rooted in despair and a feeling of like hopelessness, but then I find it to be so hopeful as well. like that little glimmer of, you know, that's why I loved the Tom Grasso conversation. Like if you just, if you know, if you want forgiveness, like all you have to do is ask. And the fact that that can feel impossible,

like when he was saying to Robbie in episode five, you don't have to be the vagrant bird. Like it's not necessarily too late for you to come home. And do people have the ability to realize that that's true? Is it true? You know? And like what is more powerful, being the person on the receiving?

end of that or the person who can maybe grant that to somebody else. Right. You know, and even that Robbie Tom conversation, I just keep thinking about what you were saying about Shelley and how nine out of ten shows have Shelley open the door, let them go talk to Ray. And that's pretty much it. Yeah. This is just a woman who lives in this guy's house.

She gets an extra bit when Ray is like, we're doing, we're going to, we're going to rob these guys. You know, she's interrogated. You have that incredible O'Lea monologue with her. Then she's kind of gone for a while and then pops out at the most crucial moment

of Robbie's life pretty much when he's deciding what he's going to do. But because we've spent just those extra couple of scenes with her, she goes from being someone who's in the background to someone who is now in the foreground and then even if that's just

all we get with her. You know what I mean? Like, obviously she at the end of five gives or at the end of six gives Maeve the money and you're just like this is incredible

but also like Maeve is now an tremendous amount of even more danger but even like one thing I found myself thinking about a lot was like

Robbie had absolutely no reason to believe that she would give me the money. I don't even know he does and you know like yeah and but he's like this is my best shot

and the thing that he's banking on the actual there's the literal currency of like moving the fentanyol and what was in Grasso's file, like the actual tangible thing you can hold in your hand or that you can point somebody to, but the only actual share of courtesy

between those people is like the trust that you know what it's like to be let down. Right? And so that's the thing they're banking on at the end of the day, which is like a really remarkable thing to study over seven hours of TV.

Yes. And then another example of that is like there's a lot of shots of birds in this show. Beautiful. And you're just kind of... Are you a big bird guy? I mean, you're going to go birds, obviously. Yeah, I'm not.

But, you know, I'm not, but it's an easy thing to just be like, all right, we're going to cut to some idyllic nature shots to, like, fill this out. You know, dare I say, sometimes I find Mike White over relies on that, you know? And I know that there's symbolism in his cutaways and everything, but I do think that you get all that stuff, you get him watching these birds and kind of drunkenly, like mentioning that this one thing has shown up in his backyard. Yeah.

Because that hits harder when they have this conversation. station in the car. Yes. And he's like, you're the vagrant. You know, you're like, oh shit,

that's why we've been looking at these things for such a long time. I'm glad you like it. Oh, that's great. So you said it's easily among what were the other top shows the year for you.

I mean, all right, let me issue the caveat that my brain is just shattered right now. Jet lag, also the general, just decline and decay of my

faculty's in the faculty's in acuity. I'm sure I'm remembering a few things that are very important to me this year that I loved. I think my, I think my favorite, the shows that I think are the best this year so far

and or task, adolescence. Pit. Pit severance. There's one you're forgetting. Maybe that's my top five. What am I forgetting? Shorzie.

Well, let me tell you something. I'm not forgetting Shorzzy, but I was forgotten by you and Manzukas when Shorzi rolled around. Forgotten. I mean, I definitely told you to watch Shorzi. Yes, and then the three of us were texting about how we would pod together when the new season came out. Where are you? Why?

I was here and Kaya was like, they're potting about Shorzi. And then I came over and I stood there and waited to watch you come out of the studio. That's right. Yeah. I'm sorry. You're not. You're a very busy woman, you know? I don't want to encumber you.

Sure. Yeah. Okay, thanks. Yeah, Shorzie would be up there. That was a great one. What else came out this year? I was higher on this season of Last of Us than many. Yeah, I think it's been...

A consistently entertaining TV year that has... Pit the Pit rule. Four or five shows that are kind of a cut above. Yeah. And this is one of them. No question. No question. I'm coming on strong, but I still think,

on a personal note, just to see the project fulfilled and or is kind of like... Yeah. Which is weird, because one of the things that I think is United... My favorite shows this year has been, this feels like real life, like whether it's the pit or adolescence in some ways, task.

And or is about space politics, but obviously is also about revolution and has become, you know, kind of a touchstone cultural moment at this particular time in American and Western politics. I mean, obviously we've talked about this many times over the years in covering Thrones together

and many other things, but, you know, that's ultimately like, that's the great magic trick of genre storytelling. Like, that's what genre storytelling at its best does. it simultaneously transports you to a world that is not yours and is ultimately not recognizable and unlock something about your ability to think about and understand your own life. And Andor is just the supreme example. Andor is probably like the first time since Bear season two maybe that I can remember

where you'll be having a conversation about the best episode of a season of television and you realize that you're talking about different episodes because they're both There's so many good ones. Yeah. Thanks for coming on today. Thanks for having me, man. What a treat. Enjoy the task finale.

I'm really looking forward to it. I think I'm going to probably be pretty shaken. Whatever happens, that's my expectation. I'm looking forward to it. I can't wait. You and Andy mentioned the possibility when you were covering episode six that this was not 100% definitively a limited series. There's just a lot of chatter.

which shattered me. I did not know that that was like out in the ether as a possibility. I think there's just been a lot of chatter about the Ingallsbyverse. Some chirp and birds. That there is interest in doing more of this show in particular. I would be thrilled. I think it's a no-brainer. I hope they don't like let it like basically what happened with mayor,

which is like they made it. I think they made it around or right after or during COVID. And kind of like then Kate Winslet went off and did like Kate Winslet things. And like she was like, I would love to play this character again. But obviously her dance card gets really full up. I hope people love TASC and that they then they're like, we need to do more of it. Let's do task and let's do it like next year, you know?

That would be incredible. I hope so. Thank you so much, Mallory. Thank you, Christopher. Let's get into my interview with Doug Delgarion from they are gutting a body of water. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner.

Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something?

Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime.

to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas, terms apply. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er.

Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash ActiveCase. Cash, terms apply. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce, and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake.

But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. All right, we're about to get into my interview with Doug from there gutting a body of water.

This is one of my favorite current bands. Their new album, Lotto, which comes out midnight, Friday, or late tonight, Thursday, to you'll be able to listen to it almost immediately after you hear this pot. This is easily my favorite record of the year. So I really want to Doug to come on.

Annie and I have bands on from time to time. They tend to be relatively obscure, I guess, compared to maybe some of the TV people that we have on. But if you're listening to this and you like they are getting a body of water, I think it's a really fun interview because we go through a bunch of the songs on Lotto and talk about their creation and what Doug was kind of thinking when he was making them. If you don't know this band, I would say, do you like Sonic Youth? Do you like Nirvana? Do you like My Bloody Valentine?

I think you'd like them. They are just an amazing underground rock band. They have elements of shoegays, elements of electronic music, elements of just, you know, really, really good indie rock, I guess. It's hard to know what to call them because they are really, really unique. This is a Philadelphia band. So, you know, the tradition of this podcast, we celebrate things from Philadelphia. They sound otherworldly to me, but they also sound like they can only really come from Philadelphia. I talked to Doug about that.

I talked to Doug about these songs. We talked a little bit of birds. Go birds. Go there gutting a body of water. Go check out Lotto. Doug, thank you so much for joining me, man. You know, I've loved this band for a minute. Lotto, the new record from there,

gutting a body of water is honestly like pretty far away the best thing I've heard this year. So congratulations on the record. Thanks for joining me. Dude, so you're calling from Philly right now? Yeah, yeah, West Philly. Awesome. I'm in my warehouse.

I wanted to talk to you a little bit because, you know, me and Andy, my podcast partner, have been talking about this show task that's been on for a minute. It's a crime show set in Philly on HBO, but we've had Philly on the Brain. I've been back a bunch recently. When you think about it, what is distinctively Philadelphia about the sound of,

of this record specifically, but the band in general? Listen, full transparency I'm not from here. I've been here a long time, and I love it, and I would die for the city. I love this place. But the other thing is just like, it's kind of like an infectious thing that I think happens to you whether or not you want to, you want it to.

You know what I mean? So I got here in whatever like 2015 or 16 or something like that. And even like the stuff that I'm talking about on the record is very just like pertains to my day to day life. I wanted to ask you, this is sort of like a tough question for me to articulate because I don't know how you would want to answer it. But one of the things that's always drawn me to the band is I feel like for better and probably for worse for you sometimes. Like you're just like the listener gets to ride shotgun in your brain. Like now for me it's always been like this musical journey with you where I'm like, how is this guy putting together these sounds together?

Like the, whether it's a shoegay sound or a jungle break beat or even just like the little samples you're triggering and all this stuff. and I feel like I can feel this journey or in passion you've had for music for your whole life, like coming out in these records. And it really, really, really speaks to me because I feel like I share a lot of the similar tastes with you. But can you talk to me a little bit about, like, you as a music listener? And like what you've kind of, like, found when you found it and how it's kind of been assimilated into now, like, the stuff that you're making? Yeah, for sure.

When I was a kid, I didn't know anything about Indie. rock. It just wasn't something that I listened to. I just primarily listen to hip hop, like Lil Wayne and you know, Jada kiss, the LOX, like all that stuff. That was like primarily what I listened to. My sibling went to school at SVA in New York City and they were, they were just so tapped into like cool shit that I, you know, it just wasn't a part of, you know, I didn't, I didn't know anything about it. And so then it just became like, like, you know, like radiator hospital and stuff like that. And I was just like, wow, this is like super cool.

But then also, you know, when I was like 22, 23, I got into like boards of Canada. And I think Geogadi like specifically really changed the way I thought about a lot of things because like that whole record, Geogadi is like backwards. I mean, every song is like literally. Like I think they like record things forwards and just. just like reverse it and put it out. And I always thought like it felt so specific and it felt,

I remember the first time I listened to it. I was like, I hate the way I feel when I listen to this. Then it just becomes like comfortable. And the same thing could be said for like my bloody valentine or whatever. I think the other thing is just like we're starving for like a monoculture. But I think the monoculture kind of that exists is like a cacophony of everything all at once. And I think I've always really just been a fan of so many different things. And,

you know, my whole thing is just like, if you, if you, if you like, if you like take a swing at it, just see how it feels. Do you actually feel like you're starving for a monoculture? Like, do you wish that there was like a single publication telling you what bands to listen to and stuff like that and like kind of have that, maybe not that kind of like gatekeeping, but not a, not a publication, but I really do wish. you know, I don't know. I feel like even up until, you know, the mid-2000s or whatever, I remember like the Sopranos was such a big deal.

Maybe that's a cool thing about the internet too, is that everybody is just like into their own thing, you know? Like, I don't know. But I really, I love the feeling of just like everybody knowing what this thing is. Yeah, I think the cool thing about the internet is, for instance, Like, somebody can hear this interview. I know I had this experience with your band where you can just, like, lose yourself in it. And you can watch these clips of you guys playing live in a circle, in a sonic drive-in or whatever.

You can really, like, immerse yourself in something so fast. But I think for you and me probably who still remember a pre-digital life, like, there was some kind of romance to the way you're describing getting into Radiator Hospital and listening to Jada Kiss tapes and stuff like that and finding it in a little bit of a slower way, it feels like I almost burn through my obsessions super fast now. Yes, exactly.

I think that is the ultimate conclusion to a lack of monoculture is that you're super thrilled about something, but it doesn't have the staying power that it once did. You know what I mean? And I think that, I don't know if it's scary. It's just, I don't know, there's something really magical about things that were just like a part of the zeitgeist. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

I don't know. Let's talk a little bit about Lotto because it feels very much like you guys playing in a room. And it feels like a record, I cannot wait to see you guys play live because it just feels like it's been dialed up to be heard in that environment. Was that like a big thing for you where you were like, I want to feel like this feels like a band right now? Yeah, for sure. I think we were getting to a point where we were so niche. And just so, like, we were becoming a meme.

You know what I mean? It was getting weird. And like, that's cool. I'm all, you know, you can listen to my music and determine that like, I'm super into experimentation and I'm super into things. exploring and figuring out, you know, new ways to do things or whatever. But I think at the end of the day, with this one, I was just like, dude, I just want to get back to the basics.

Like, what do we sound like? And also, like, you know, by the time we were making, we made gestures Ben and it was just me and Ben and our friend Evan playing bass. It was just a three piece. By the time I meet Destiny XL, it was like a cycling cast of, you know, you know, people and they were changing constantly. By the time we got to Lucky Stiles, it was the solid four piece that we have now. So this record as a follow, and then we did expansion pack too, which was really just like super far out.

I wanted to just like go as many places as I wanted to with that one. So for this one, it was like, let's just bring it back to reality and just see what that feels like. And honestly, it's cool. It's exciting. I got real into nirvana's in utero and just like reading about it and reading about like what that felt like. I love creating things that feel almost artificial. Yeah.

Like the like the blue raspberry flavor of candy or something like that. You know what I mean? Because like it's like it really is the best flavor. It's phenomenal. It's like strange and you know, it doesn't exist in nature. But then there's also something about like just eating a, you know, a strawberry where you're like, this is nice too, you know? And it tastes like it looks, you know. Yes, exactly.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's no like, it's not like a mystery airheads flavor where you're like, I have no idea what the fuck this thing is, you know. So yeah, I don't know. It was cool to get back to that. And also just a lot of the things that I was talking about on the record or just where I was in my life. And I think where we all were in our lives, you know, we just wanted to make a record that we could recreate live. Sometimes that's like, that's hard.

You know, you do all. It's cool to explore, man. It's cool to like do all these other different things and, you know, see where things can go. But like we tried playing Kmarti Mn Break live probably like five times. And it's cool. It just doesn't hit the same way. And we just wanted to be like, yo, but like Delta P does or like behind the water. does, but it's a totally different thing when we play it live.

And both of those are off Lucky Stiles. But with the Lotto songs, it's just like we could just play any of them. Yeah, I think my favorite song by you guys is still fake 20. And that feels like it could be on Lotto. You know, it feels like. Yeah. Things move in cycles, dude. I think this is kind of like a revisitation of what it felt like to make gestures, man.

you know um and i think it's kind of it just kind of always moves in cycles like that and uh you know yeah gesture's been felt similarly where it was like it we just kind of live tracked it and it was um i don't know if we live tracked it but it but it feels so live um but yeah i don't know um it's really it's been refreshing to get into just like of just being yeah you know like you know what I mean, like, at the end of the day, it's like all this other stuff, all this jungle stuff, all this, like, and I love all that stuff. You know what I mean? Like, no shade at all.

But it was definitely just so much cooler to just be like, we're just going to be a band for this one. That's cool. And see what that. Yeah, it was enjoyable to create too, because it was just, it was so much easier. So, like, I want to ask you about a couple of the songs. So I'm going to start in the middle of the record, you know, and we're not going to go track by track or anything like that, but I just had, I just had to, like, ask you about a couple of things. When I was listening to the promo version of the album, like, on repeat, I often wouldn't be

able to see what track I was listening to. So, like, the first few times it through, and I get to slow cross-stick, and I'm like, damn, this sounds like, Fugazi. This is, and then I was like, well, dude, it's from instrument. It's fucking slow-crossing. I was so excited. Dude, it's the, it's the opening track on the, not of the record itself. but in the documentary. And I just always remember watching that and being like, holy, it just feels, and it's such a simple song, but it just feels so powerful.

And honestly, I don't think we recreated it in a way that is, I don't even know if it does it justice. It was just like, I just wanted to do it because, you know, I mean, like, morally I really love those guys. And I've always, you know, I've always been a fan of just like, I don't know, just everything. And I remember the first time I heard an instrument. I think I thought I knew what Fugazi sounded like. And then I heard instrument in like, uh, in, uh, Quad Cities, Iowa, just like after the show

we played maybe in like 2015. And I was like, this is crazy. This sounds like dust or something. This is like some other thing that just like, I thought I knew what Fugazi sounded like. And then I listened to that record and I was just like, holy smokes. So yeah, I've always, I love that record. That record in particular instrument soundtrack is just like easily one of my favorites. And yeah, so I just wanted to like, it's just a nod.

It's also like a great middle of the record kind of like stretch where you're just like, yeah, man, we're just going to like loose it. Like it's almost like shake it off and now we're going to finish the album. But when I heard it and I was thinking, you know, like instrument, was just like a VHS tape that we just had on in our apartment in Boston when I was living there when I was a kid forever. It just felt like it was on a loop and you would just walk in and be like oh, he's about to climb through the basketball hoop now. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. But that period of time for Fugazi, which is like actually like that

red medicine end hits instrument era is like my favorite, but it made this connection in my head between like kind of what you guys are doing and and what they were doing and they were like demons in the studio like they're doing so much cool stuff on those albums and but they could still like tear your head off live and we're still like this incredible rock band so it was I thought it was just an awesome an awesome like little like easter egg to throw in there I wanted to ask you about sour diesel um one of the cool things on Lotto is your voice is both at once um much more audible, but also it almost feels like, I know you're singing

about yourself, and I know you're singing about some incredibly intense shit, but you almost like are changing the character of the voice on a couple of different songs, like sometimes it's spoken word. Sauer Diesel has this like gorgeous vocal harmony going on. Like, can you tell me a little bit about that song? You're listening to PINBack? Yeah.

Dude, I'm like a huge Rob Crowhead. And they always, I don't know, there's this song Tripoli, that they have and it's off like their first record. This is a pinback CD. And there's there's just these like interlocking vocal melodies that I was always just like, that's such a cool way to like make a song. And I've always just been really into that.

So for that one, it was like, I don't know, there's a demo and sour diesel that we'll probably put out like some time next week with a video or whatever. And it's just a totally different song. Yeah, yeah. it's it's way different um it's way more sad and you know whatever it was so i remember bringing that one to these guys and being like yeah this is how it goes and uh it almost feels like uh another another kind of uh inspiration for that was like um joyce man yeah um like constant headache like just how that song feels man it's just so good those are those are you know two

timeless songs i I think good music just speaks for itself. You can pigeonhole it. You can do whatever like, oh, that's pop punk. I don't like that or whatever. I think anybody that listens to constant headache, anybody who listens to Tripoli, whatever, you're just like, this is phenomenal.

Like, and I think that was, that's always kind of what I'm trying to get at. It's just like, you know, people always want to call us shoegaze and they want to be like, yo, you're in this realm or this realm or whatever. But I think like at the end of the day, Lotto was kind of like an exploration in just being like, let's just make good music.

Let's just see what that feels like to be in a room and just make good music together. And so, yeah, it was an exploration in that way too and not trying to lean too heavy into being one way or the other, you know? But yeah, that song in particular, I like that song a lot. I like to demo even more.

Like a lot more. I look forward to hearing the sad version of this. Yeah, it's depressing. It's like, but I didn't want to do that also. Like, I don't know. Lotto doesn't need to be like, sure, I'm talking about some really heavy shit or whatever, but we all go through shit. My shit is not worse than anybody else's.

And I think, I don't know, I really don't want to ever put out anything where it's like, I think that's the hard part about like being an addict in recovery and talking about the real truths of that. It could be seen as some sort of romanticization, but it's really, I really, I really, really don't want it to be. I really want it to be like, hey, you know, I struggle just like you struggle, you know? And I think that's like, that's really, that's really the message of the record in general. I mean, the last song, Herpin were like, I'm talking about like a plane landing when, and that actually happened. We were on this plane and I thought it was, it was scary

as shit. I hate flying. Yeah. I didn't grow up flying or whatever. And, yeah, but the plane lands. And I think that's like kind of the thing that I'm trying to get at too. It's just like, you know, I don't know. Whatever. I just went on a tangent. No, not at all, man. I mean, I was wondering, you know, when we were coming into this, I was like, you know, on the fence about how much to ask you about the lyrical content of it, because I'm sure it's difficult to feel like you opened a vein, basically, on this record. And you're so honest. And then you have to forget, like, have to, like, perform it every night. You also have to talk about it with interviewers and journalists who are like, hey, man, so tell me about this,

tell me about that. And I too have my personal issues with some of the stuff that you've talked about. And it's not something I want to talk about every day. You know what I mean? Yeah, not at all. Not at all. I mean, that's the thing. I learned pretty early on. It's weird. When you first get clean, you tell everybody. You know what I mean? You're like, hey, what's up? I'm Doug. I'm recovering dope And then years later, you get to this point where you're like, I don't need to tell my boss that I'm a fucking junkie. You know what I mean?

Like I don't need to tell certain people this stuff, like, because it's just so personal or whatever. And so I kind of learned that a lot. But it's funny. Yeah, it's funny to be like, you know, I've always like veiled everything. That's another thing about a lot of too is it's just very out in the open. And a lot of the other stuff that I'm talking about on the other records is the same stuff. But it's like hidden beneath layers of noise.

Yeah. So it's weird to like do all these interviews now. And people are like, what's up, you fucking junkie? Like, what's this about? You know what I mean? You're like, oh, man. You should just start lying and be like, oh, no, actually this song's about Sequeau Barclay. Yeah, totally.

They're all about Seqaum Barclay. Ultimately. Especially this season. American food. When I heard this, I was like, this band could do anything. Like, what is going on here? it's got this incredible break, the scratching, the harmonies, but the pitched up stuff. Tell me about putting together.

And this is the first single. Now, you know, we're not talking to Beyonce here. It's like it's a single, but it's like part of an album. But like you obviously wanted to make a statement with putting this out first. Totally. Yeah. I mean, well, that's like the whole thing. That's our whole thing all the time.

It's like red herring. Yeah. You know, just like, you know, I wanted to, you know, we did. I think things move in cycles, and this is really important too. Like, at the end of, at the end of Lucky Stiles, the last song is 23 till and 50. And that kind of, and it's a totally different song than the rest of the songs. And that kind of alludes to a different thing.

Like the next LP will be this different thing. And I did that intentionally. And then, you know, Um, after putting out all the like the sound cloud things, uh, with like Swan like, it was funny to just like kind of throw a red herring and be like, yeah, we got this live record on deck. And it's like this whole thing of just us as a band. But, um, we're going to put out this really weird song.

Um, and honestly with that song, it just, sometimes it happens where they just come together in a matter of, uh, hours. And you're just like, I'm done with it. This one's done. and it just feels right. And that one just kind of happened. And I was just like, yeah, this is good. I remember sending it to the rest of the band,

and they were like, this is cool. And then, you know, I don't even know if it fits on the record, but I think that's probably why it's really great for it to be like a, I think it does like thematically. But like sonically, I don't know if it fits on the record. But it definitely, it was well worth it to make that the first single. You know what I mean? It was also really cool because,

there's a version of that song that I think could have like 15 more things on it. You know, like you could have like all these other layers and this just had like the five perfect parts to it. And it's a constant repeat for me. The last one I wanted to ask you about was bass I came just because this one, this is up there with Diesel with like my favorite on the records.

And it's just the guitar playing is so sick on this song. This was the one where I was like, this is probably going to be so fun to play live like 50 times for you guys. this and Herp and both really great strong end of the album

Basis, what's going on there? So there's this band called Horse Cops from Philadelphia and they're just one of my favorite bands of all time and I think

you know I always draw a lot of inspiration from my friend Josh who kind of heads that band or whatever and it just feels like a fun horse cop song

I don't know I really that's a Philly song you know what I'm saying like that's if I was like yo what is what is like Philadelphia sound like it's like snoozer

it's like you know like and I think it's like you know sun organ or whatever and I think that song is just kind of a celebration of that yeah it's a it's a I love playing that one

that one is really fun I love all the harmonics that whoa It just feels so good. And also, like, for that one, the vocal melody just follows the guitar part, which I don't frequently do. Yeah, that's like a pavement thing, right?

Like, Malcolm's does. Like, they'll just do, like, my vocal follows this lead guitar part. Yeah, it's cool. Totally, yeah. And I think, like, I don't know, I often try to figure out what the best melody would be to stand out from everything.

But for that one, I was just like, let's just get it right in there and see how it feels to just follow the guitar. part. And yeah, it's an enjoyable one. We're putting out a video for that one early next week that I'm really stuck on. Amazing. All right, man. Well, I'm not going to take up any more of your time. Thank you so much for coming on. And thank you for making this record. I can't wait to see you guys when you come out to your to L.A. Hey, Mama. Thanks for making all my favorite recipes. Hi, Ma. Thanks for your unfiltered advice.

Hi, Mom. Thanks for always being by the phone. Hey, Mom. Happy Mother's Day. When you ship UPS Air at the UPS Store, your items arrive on time or your money back. Guaranteed at no extra cost, exclusively at the UPS Store UPS store U.S. retail locations. Visit the UPS Store.com slash air shipping for full details. Terms and conditions apply. Send your Mother's Day gifts at the UPS store and we'll get your gratitude there on time.